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::*As DGG pointed out to Snotty in reply to his parallel comment elsewhere, "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_actors&diff=399767885&oldid=399767003 as usual, if they have a Wikipedia article, including them isn't a violation of NOT DIR. A violation would be including every such actor, whether or not notable]."--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC) |
::*As DGG pointed out to Snotty in reply to his parallel comment elsewhere, "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_actors&diff=399767885&oldid=399767003 as usual, if they have a Wikipedia article, including them isn't a violation of NOT DIR. A violation would be including every such actor, whether or not notable]."--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC) |
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::**But is including people who appear not to actually '''be''' Jewish for any purposes other than the list itself acceptable? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 21:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC) |
::**But is including people who appear not to actually '''be''' Jewish for any purposes other than the list itself acceptable? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 21:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC) |
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'''NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN''' There's reasonable evidence to suggest that [[User:Epeefleche]] is participating in an email-based [[WP:CANVASS]]ing campaign for users likely to !vote keep on this AfD (and other recent Jewish AfDs). See the following for evidence: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_actors&diff=399805616&oldid=399778147 IP address belongs to User:DustFormsWords - he forgot to sign in] Note that [[User:Epeefleche]] has a long history of [[WP:CANVASS]]ing keep-friendly individuals to participate in Jews CfDs/AfDs. Here are diffs from one of Epee's canvassing campaigns a few years ago: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Awartha&diff=prev&oldid=123125913] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kolindigo&diff=prev&oldid=123124238] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jack_O%27Lantern&diff=prev&oldid=123121966] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alex_S&diff=prev&oldid=123119935] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kappa&diff=prev&oldid=123119655] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LazarKr&diff=prev&oldid=123119241] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RachelBrown&diff=prev&oldid=123118920] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Londoneye&diff=prev&oldid=123118492] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwalcoff&diff=prev&oldid=123118035] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ansell&diff=prev&oldid=123117608] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:R613vlu&diff=prev&oldid=123117124] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bakasuprman&diff=prev&oldid=123116792] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Daniel11&diff=prev&oldid=123116443] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Holdenhurst&diff=prev&oldid=123116122] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shamir1&diff=prev&oldid=123115824] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Newport&diff=prev&oldid=123115412] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ansell&diff=prev&oldid=123059170] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Brownlee&diff=prev&oldid=123058852] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Osidge&diff=prev&oldid=123058569] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Quatloo&diff=prev&oldid=123058214] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reuvenk&diff=prev&oldid=123124657]. He now chooses to do this more surreptitiously by email. |
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Anybody who has been canvassed by Epeefleche to participate in this AfD should come forward to quell suspicion. [[User talk:Bulldog123|<span style='color: #900009;'>Bull</span><span style='color: #FFA500;'>dog123</span>]] 02:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:46, 1 December 2010
List of Jewish Nobel laureates
- List of Jewish Nobel laureates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Delete, The Nobel Prize is awarded without consideration of ethnicity, religion, or even nationality. There is no inherent connection between the topics. We do not have other lists of Nobel laureates by religion, no List of Christian Nobel laureates, no List of Hindu Nobel laureates, etc. There is no reason this could not be handled by a category, such that the regular editors of the biographical article could ensure accurate inclusion. Many of those editors may not even be aware of this article, and the repeated inclusion of Andre Geim despite being a living person who does not self-identify as Jewish shows the problem here. There may be many other invalid inclusions, better to use a category and let knowledgeable people about each subject maintain inclusion. Yworo (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: Yworo, I beg you to acknowledge that Jews are also an ethnicity before somebody comes on and says "!keep ethnicity is notable." Bulldog123 21:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Acknowledged, but also not a valid intersection on which to build a list. Yworo (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- The fact that several of the people on the list do not selfidentify as jewish is the big problem in my opinion. It seems a little like applying the Nuremberg laws retroactively.·Maunus·ƛ· 17:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Acknowledged, but also not a valid intersection on which to build a list. Yworo (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: Yworo, I beg you to acknowledge that Jews are also an ethnicity before somebody comes on and says "!keep ethnicity is notable." Bulldog123 21:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: this article was deleted in 2007 as a result of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination). I find no evidence that this deletion was ever officially overturned via process, so technically this is a recreation of a deleted article. Yworo (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note This article was nominated on deletion and kept. Second nomination in less than a year is simply a waste of community time.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment It is for the community to decide what it considers a 'waste of time'. Given the number of participants in this discussion, I'd suggest there is little evidence that your suggestion is of merit. Argue the case, not the history. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I believe recreating articles is allowed unless expressly prohibited (except when done in a disruptive way). --Avenue (talk) 22:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not true. Recreation of an article deleted via AfD must go through deletion review. Any article recreated after an AfD is subject to speedy deletion under G4. Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion. Yworo (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, G4 refers to "A sufficiently identical and unimproved copy [...]" of a deleted article. As far as I know, no one has suggested this is a nearly identical copy of the deleted article, and the initial author of the current article has said she wrote it from scratch. --Avenue (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- How different can a list be? The content of a list will be basically the same regardless of how it's formatted. While the previous articles were said to be poorly sourced, that wasn't the major reason for the deletion. The primary reason for the deletion was that no influence was established between religion/ethnicity and the specific work for which the subject won the award. That's still not been established so the deletion reason still stands and the article should not have been recreated because it is impossible for it to have substantially different content. Yworo (talk) 02:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't seen the previous list, so I don't know how different they are. Perhaps an admin can enlighten us. But if they were nearly identical (which I think is unlikely), then the early 2010 AfD would have effectively been a review of the 2007 deletion of this list, and could be interpreted as having overturned it. --Avenue (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- How different can a list be? The content of a list will be basically the same regardless of how it's formatted. While the previous articles were said to be poorly sourced, that wasn't the major reason for the deletion. The primary reason for the deletion was that no influence was established between religion/ethnicity and the specific work for which the subject won the award. That's still not been established so the deletion reason still stands and the article should not have been recreated because it is impossible for it to have substantially different content. Yworo (talk) 02:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, G4 refers to "A sufficiently identical and unimproved copy [...]" of a deleted article. As far as I know, no one has suggested this is a nearly identical copy of the deleted article, and the initial author of the current article has said she wrote it from scratch. --Avenue (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not true. Recreation of an article deleted via AfD must go through deletion review. Any article recreated after an AfD is subject to speedy deletion under G4. Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion. Yworo (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete and categorise as Category:Jewish Nobel laureates. - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 20:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- You realize the only reason this list exists is because a CATEGORY like this would be put up for CFD and deleted immediately per WP:Overcategorization. Bulldog123 21:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep There's enough secondary sources that discuss the topic. No reason not to have a list in addition to any categories. Christopher Connor (talk) 20:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- No there's not. There's not a single link that documents the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize. Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_directory. Bulldog123 21:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- But there is. A simply check would have found them. I'm guessing you did check, but somehow didn't find them. Though I'm not sure why it isn't all in the article. Christopher Connor (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- If the check was so simple, why not link to said WP:RS that academically document the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize? "There's a lot of them" is not an academic discussion. The fact that Charles Murray uses "Jewish Nobel Prize" winners as evidence that Jews value education more, etc... is also not reason enough to have this list because Wikipedia is not a directory and this is not Charles' Murray's Wikipedia. Bulldog123 22:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I've added a list of sources that discuss or document Jewish Nobel Prize winners. It was so easy for me to find that I can only conclude that you either didn't check or you did but still said there wasn't any. But simply repeatedly insisting that there isn't is disingenuous. There really is no debate here to have with regards to the notability of this list. I don't know why this discussion is being plastered with text. Christopher Connor (talk) 23:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I can't tell if you're intentionally intending to ignore the point or you really don't understand. A LIST is not the same thing as a SCHOLARLY ANALYSIS. The information you're providing does little more than present a LIST (I should also note some of those refs are clearly vanity publications). If a header article cannot be written about the list, the list should not exist. It can't in this case, because there is not enough encyclopedic scholarly information to write about. Once again... "There's a lot of them" is not a sole qualification for notability. Yet again, Wikipedia is not a directory. Bulldog123 01:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Lists and analyses are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the FL criteria stipulate that lists must have sufficient explanatory prose, which does not have a size limit (except as set by unrelated article guidelines). Therefore I do not see a problem. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- The list has to have something encyclopedic to justify its existence. "The body social: symbolism, self, and society" By Anthony Synnott is an academic publication with a pretty thorough section on blonde celebrities. Yet, list of blonde actresses would still not be an eligible list on wikipedia. I'm not saying these lists are equivalent. I'm just giving an example. There's a reason other wikis don't have this list yet (nor are they pining for it). Bulldog123 15:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Lists and analyses are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the FL criteria stipulate that lists must have sufficient explanatory prose, which does not have a size limit (except as set by unrelated article guidelines). Therefore I do not see a problem. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I can't tell if you're intentionally intending to ignore the point or you really don't understand. A LIST is not the same thing as a SCHOLARLY ANALYSIS. The information you're providing does little more than present a LIST (I should also note some of those refs are clearly vanity publications). If a header article cannot be written about the list, the list should not exist. It can't in this case, because there is not enough encyclopedic scholarly information to write about. Once again... "There's a lot of them" is not a sole qualification for notability. Yet again, Wikipedia is not a directory. Bulldog123 01:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I've added a list of sources that discuss or document Jewish Nobel Prize winners. It was so easy for me to find that I can only conclude that you either didn't check or you did but still said there wasn't any. But simply repeatedly insisting that there isn't is disingenuous. There really is no debate here to have with regards to the notability of this list. I don't know why this discussion is being plastered with text. Christopher Connor (talk) 23:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- If the check was so simple, why not link to said WP:RS that academically document the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize? "There's a lot of them" is not an academic discussion. The fact that Charles Murray uses "Jewish Nobel Prize" winners as evidence that Jews value education more, etc... is also not reason enough to have this list because Wikipedia is not a directory and this is not Charles' Murray's Wikipedia. Bulldog123 22:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- But there is. A simply check would have found them. I'm guessing you did check, but somehow didn't find them. Though I'm not sure why it isn't all in the article. Christopher Connor (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- No there's not. There's not a single link that documents the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize. Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_directory. Bulldog123 21:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment We may not have lists of Nobel laureates by religion, but we do have lists by ethnicity (List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates) and race (List of black Nobel Laureates). --Avenue (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Hmmm, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS can sometimes indicate that the other stuff also needs to be deleted. Yworo (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'll happily nominate the Chinese lists. Bulldog123 21:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- And I have Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates. Frankly, that list is even more ridiculous than this one. Bulldog123 23:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Hmmm, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS can sometimes indicate that the other stuff also needs to be deleted. Yworo (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Info: This list has been through two previous AfDs, plus a VfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners. --Avenue (talk) 21:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the result in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination) was delete all, including List of Jewish Nobel laureates. Not sure how it got recreated. Yworo (talk) 21:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I believe it was deleted even earlier too. Does anyone have a log? Bulldog123 21:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I missed a fourth discussion, sorry: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Humanist Nobel laureates. The results of those four previous discussions were:
- 2005 VfD: No consensus
- June 2007 AfD: No consensus
- July 2007 AfD: Delete all
- Feb 2010 AfD: Keep
- The two AfD discussions in 2007 covered various belief- or disbelief-based lists of Nobel laureates (atheist (July only), Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, and Muslim). --Avenue (talk) 22:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I missed a fourth discussion, sorry: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Humanist Nobel laureates. The results of those four previous discussions were:
- I believe it was deleted even earlier too. Does anyone have a log? Bulldog123 21:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the result in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination) was delete all, including List of Jewish Nobel laureates. Not sure how it got recreated. Yworo (talk) 21:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong Delete It serves no purpose (and only creates WP:BATTLEGROUND issues) because the Nobel Prize committee explicitly states its prize is awarded without consideration to ethnicity, religion, or even nationality. Ethnicity, by itself, is not notable and the policy on lists states that a good way of judging whether something is listcruft is by seeing if an article can be written about its contents. List of Freemasons exists because of Freemasonry... but List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners doesn't have a Jews & The Nobel Prize article to substantiate it, and will never have such an article because there's nothing to say except "A good number of Nobel Prize winners had a Jewish parent." Furthermore having members of a distinct ethnic group win the prize often is also not a list-worthy characteristic. Nobody feels the need to make List of ethnic German Nobel Prize laureates, though if it were created on the same criteria as the Jewish list (having a recent ancestor of German ethnicity), there'd be just as many self-identifying candidates. Also I get the feeling that if List of ethnic German Nobel Prize laureates did exist, it'd be trolled into oblivion for being "racist." Furthermore, despite what's being said here, about 1/3rd of the list maintains various other ethnic ancestries in addition to Jewish, and many more have never outright stated they identify as being "Jewish." (e.g., It's never mentioned that Otto Wallach -- who is frequently listed as only Jewish -- is only approximately 1/4th Jewish by ethnic descent -- his Jewish grandfather having converted to Protestantism and the remainder of his ancestors being ethnic Germans) Bulldog123 21:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I also want to mention that this list is surreptitiously being used like a category by means of linking it into various See Also sections. See: Special:WhatLinksHere/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates. Therefore, Wikipedia:OCAT#Non-notable_intersections_by_ethnicity.2C_religion.2C_or_sexual_orientation applies here. Bulldog123 21:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd agree that most of those links seem unnecessary. But why do you believe this addition was surreptitious? It was raised shortly afterwards at Talk:List of Jewish Nobel laureates#Link from articles on laureates by the editor adding the links. --Avenue (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's not just unnecessary, it's synthesizing false notions. These people are not famous for being JEWISH Nobel Prize winners. They're famous for being Nobel Prize winners. They happen to have Jewish ancestry also. As for the surreptitious comment - it's most regarding what's been happening on Andre Geim - and you may have not been around yet for when this happened with other lists. Category:Jewish mathematicians was deleted and List of Jewish mathematicians (which has been lingering around untouched for years now) started getting linked to all the former articles. Bulldog123 23:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete I ended up seeing this list via the biography of Andre Geim, recent Nobel laureate in physics who describes himself as having a Jewish great-grandmother and a name that sounds Jewish. His name got stuck onto the list, which changed its rules in order to justify the addition of somebody who was briefly described in a 2006 computer journal as Jewish, with a few other sources picking up that info no doubt from the Googlable first one. List enthusiasts claim its methods need not be limited by WP:BLPCAT because it is a list not a category, although it gets used to tag articles like Geim's "See also: List of Jewish Nobel laureates' thus asserting "without disclaimers or modifiers" that Geim is Jewish. And if a curious reader clicks to the List, again there are no modifiers, and certainly no explanation that the rule in force, since it got changed after Geim's win, is only ""A Jew is anyone that reliable sources say is a Jew." The list is a magnet for POV-pushers who care less about the accuracy of information in Wikipedia than they do about stretching the length of the list by one name--even though putting fake names on the list serves to devalue the list's integrity. If the list fell under some Wikipedia rule for putting (or not) people on it, preferably including for living laureates a requirement for self-identification as Jewish, I would feel differently. But the list enthusiasts make up their own rules. betsythedevine (talk) 22:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Obviously should be kept per Christopher Connor. Issue of the high proportion of Jewish Nobel Prize winners specifically discussed in several reliable secondary sources. Fortunately, WP:Notability is a guiding rule in Wikipedia, not WP:Political correctness. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- keep A very notable intersection. There's a fair number of sources about the oddly large size of this intersection. The intersection is thus naturally relevant and makes sense as a list. We may need to be careful about inclusion criteria but that's not a reason to delete. (edit conflicted with Plot Spoiler who said almost the exact same thing.) JoshuaZ (talk) 23:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have source for that proportion relative to say those of say British, French, and German ancestry? I'm sure at least one of those ancestries has as great or greater proportion than those of Jewish ancestry. If so, are you arguing that those lists should be created as well? The problem is, this list isn't simply including people who self-identify as Jewish, it's including people by ancestry, even including people with one Jewish grandparent regardless of whether it was the maternal or paternal grandparent even if the individual has specifically indicated that they don't identify as Jewish. Yworo (talk) 23:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- CommentOne can imagine research on the intersection of Nobel Prizes with Jewish ethnic heritage, but is there any such interest in the intersection of Nobel Prizes with people who have been described as Jewish despite having minimal numbers of Jewish "genes"? I can see the potential interest of an article about "Nobel laureates who are ethnically Jewish" but NOT of what we have now, "Nobel laureates who have been described as Jewish." betsythedevine (talk) 23:42, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity here, Joshua - because your position on this baffles me the most considering you're one of the more eloquent and levelheaded !keep voters here - why do you consider the qualification "[an] oddly large... intersection" to automatically qualify something as having encyclopedic value? Why is this list given special treatment over something like List of white Nobel Prize laureates. After all, white people form only 1/5th (20%) of the world's population but 93%+ of Nobel Prize laureates. Right? And there's actually plenty of secondary sources and scholarly analysis to back it up as notable. Would you support such a list with as much fervor? Bulldog123 16:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- That's an interesting question (although frankly I don't think I'm that eloquent. Talking a lot is not the same thing. A bit flattering though). There seems to be some intuitive, almost visceral reaction that there's a difference. But that seems to be primarily on emotional grounds, and dislike of certain forms of racism along with my own dislike of Murray and Jensen (more in the form of "seriously guys, do you know how much freaking privilege white people have had in the last hundred years?" sort of thing). One could make some sort of argument that the ratio distinction is much more extreme in this case but that shouldn't be an argument for Wikipedia since it is essentially OR. One could make a WP:WEIGHT] argument by claiming that the idea that the prominence of Caucasians has anything other than a trivial position is a more fringe claim, but it would seem suspiciously convenient that the cut-off between somewhat-fringey and too-fringe would be just where emotional reactions become more severe. The only argument I find that seems to actually distinguish them is one of practicality: when you are talking about 90% of a long list, marking a separate list for that 90% seems like a not great idea. But overall I think that if someone made such a list I'd have to more or less hold my nose, scrunch my face into an unhappy grimace, and say "keep". JoshuaZ (talk) 17:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity here, Joshua - because your position on this baffles me the most considering you're one of the more eloquent and levelheaded !keep voters here - why do you consider the qualification "[an] oddly large... intersection" to automatically qualify something as having encyclopedic value? Why is this list given special treatment over something like List of white Nobel Prize laureates. After all, white people form only 1/5th (20%) of the world's population but 93%+ of Nobel Prize laureates. Right? And there's actually plenty of secondary sources and scholarly analysis to back it up as notable. Would you support such a list with as much fervor? Bulldog123 16:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- CommentOne can imagine research on the intersection of Nobel Prizes with Jewish ethnic heritage, but is there any such interest in the intersection of Nobel Prizes with people who have been described as Jewish despite having minimal numbers of Jewish "genes"? I can see the potential interest of an article about "Nobel laureates who are ethnically Jewish" but NOT of what we have now, "Nobel laureates who have been described as Jewish." betsythedevine (talk) 23:42, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have source for that proportion relative to say those of say British, French, and German ancestry? I'm sure at least one of those ancestries has as great or greater proportion than those of Jewish ancestry. If so, are you arguing that those lists should be created as well? The problem is, this list isn't simply including people who self-identify as Jewish, it's including people by ancestry, even including people with one Jewish grandparent regardless of whether it was the maternal or paternal grandparent even if the individual has specifically indicated that they don't identify as Jewish. Yworo (talk) 23:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep. This specific intersection is a notable topic due to its disproportionately. This is supported by the multitude of sourcing and scholarly material cited in the article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Disproportionality does not equal encyclopedic value. There's also a disproportionate amount of Jewish movie studio heads. I suppose List of Jewish Hollywood executives to be appropriate as well? And, despite what you say, there is no scholarly material cited in the article that's pertinent to the Nobel Prize. i.e., "Understanding Jewish Holidays and Customs: Historical and Contemporary" has nothing to do with the Nobel Prize. Once again, Wikipedia is NOT a directory Bulldog123 01:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- your response appears to veer into let-me-throw-everything-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks, so let me respond on just one aspect, the claim that there is no scholarly material discussing the intersection between Jews and Nobel Prize winners is unequivically false. This much is evidenced by the sources in the article and cited in this discussion.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong Delete To quote from WP:OC#CATGRS "...people should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career. For instance, in sports, a Roman Catholic athlete is not treated differently to a Lutheran or Methodist". And following logically, a Jewish Nobel Prize winner is presumably not treated differently from a Christian or Atheist one. If anyone wan't to suggest that a list isn't compiled by category, then I'd like to ask how else they would define the method used? It seems to me that any such method could only be either (a) meaningless, or (b) a blatent attempt to bypass Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong Delete violates BLPCAT, NPOV, and WP:EGRS. Ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation is only important when directly related to article subject's activities. This (and similar lists) serves no valid purpose, and is only used for vanity and bragging. I'm not sure if any of the keep editors has ever seen a real encyclopedia, but this is not something that belongs in one.--Therexbanner (talk) 23:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- what's the basis for a 'strong' delete" as opposed to a regular delete?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- A strong delete (in this case) is due to the fact that the list violates several Wiki policies (especially EGRS). It's not just this list, the Chinese one is up for a delete too, and there are more.--Therexbanner (talk) 00:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- so its a strong delete when it violates several wikipedia policies and a plain delete when it violates only one wikipedia policy?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- crickets. i ask because two out of three "policies" you mentioned are actually guidelines, not policies, and they apply to categories not lists. The other policy, NPOV, seems to be a WP:VAGUEWAVE. so i was kind of hoping that perhaps we can have a downgrade or two.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- A strong delete (in this case) is due to the fact that the list violates several Wiki policies (especially EGRS). It's not just this list, the Chinese one is up for a delete too, and there are more.--Therexbanner (talk) 00:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- delete simply can't be done properly. I suppose we could have a list of uncontested Jews on such a list, but we are always going to have people trying to expand it into dubious areas of someone with a Jewish great-aunt. So delete all these lists based on religion and ethnicity - clear cut things like citizenship might work, but not this.--Scott Mac 00:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment. This is an unusual and notable intersection, as many reliable secondary sources point out (including those added by Christopher Connor). And I'm still baffled as to why this particular list was chosen, considering that it's one of the few of this type that is actually notable and properly sourced. I understand that OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but why not start with List of Jewish American entertainers or List of Jewish anarchists or List of Jewish actors? I'm going to nominate a couple of those too, so we can address the larger issue here. Jayjg (talk) 01:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- And I've done it. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors. Jayjg (talk) 01:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm moving towards the position that no 'list of persons' should be included in Wikipedia unless there is a verifiable singe external source which can be unambiguously used to indicate membership. 'List of Nobel Prize winners' can be sourced to the Nobel Committee, 'List of Bolivian citizens' can (in principle) be sourced to the relevant government department, and 'List of people born on 26th November' can be sourced to birth certificates (with the proviso that this only needs to be actually verified where less strict sourcing is under reasonable dispute, per normal Wikipedia policy). Since the Nobel Committe doesn't list Nobel Prize winners by ethnicity, we shouldn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- And I've done it. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors. Jayjg (talk) 01:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not a single one of the sources Connor added do anything but list Jewish Nobel laureates. Most of them spend less than two paragraphs on the subject and zero provide any sort of scholarly interpretation of the situation. Furthermore, nearly all online sources regarding Jewish Nobel Prize laureates are vanity pages. If external references are all that's needed to make a ethnicity + Nobel Prize list, we might as well get started on list of ethnic German Nobel laureates [1] with List of ethnic Swede Nobel laureates soon to follow. Just because there are more writers concerned with Jewish studies than other ethnic group studies, doesn't mean the intersection automatically fails to be an irrelevant intersection. There is no relevance provided in any single external reading anyone has linked here. (Perhaps with the exception of Charles Murray's book - which, ironically, nobody has bothered to cite - but that then becomes a WP:WEIGHT issue). Bulldog123 02:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump and Bulldog123, I understand what you're both saying, but your actions seem to me to be inconsistent with your points; so far you've both only !voted to delete this article, but not the other two. I find this confusing; is there something about this particular list that makes it far more deletion-worthy than the others? I haven't heard that argument yet. Jayjg (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, I've !voted delete on all three, just for different reasons. Bulldog123 02:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I like to read AfDs before voting, and I was more concerned with the most pressing issues, as I see them. Since when has not participating in the debate over one article been relevant to another in any case? Even the most avid Wikipedian can't participate in every discussion, though I'm sure some try. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Jayiq, how about discussing the topic at hand instead of making a WP:POINT by creating two new AfDs, which of course also serves to WP:CANVASS all the people who edit those other articles to read your one-sided denunciation of this AfD so they can come here and !vote. You might start by explaining your rule that anybody, living or dead, who was called Jewish by some cherry-picked WP:RS is Jewish, and that all the many more WP:RS discussions of the person's ancestry that don't say he's Jewish don't count against his inclusion.betsythedevine (talk) 03:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Betsy, how about you discuss the topic at hand, rather than making untrue personal attacks on other editors. I notice that you didn't make the same false complaints when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates was created above in response to this AfD. This and related inconsistencies are troubling at best. Jayjg (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- There was a serious suggestion of a different AfD at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_ethnic_Chinese_Nobel_laureates. The nominator gave a clear and coherent explanation of his thinking about why the list should be deleted, making an effort to get people to vote with him to delete it. Now contrast that introduction with your minimal Afd statement: "Non-notable intersection, unlike Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel laureates, which is addressed by many reliable secondary sources. Also trying to address the larger issue here." Perhaps others will understand, even if you do not agree, why I thought that your two nominations were WP:POINTY and his was sincere.betsythedevine (talk) 04:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- My AfDs are entirely serious; I sincerely believe those lists are non-notable intersections and BLP-violation magnets that should be deleted. My explanation is perfectly clear, and policy based. Now, please redact your untrue personal comments about me, assume good faith, and act with more consistency in the future. Thanking you in advance. Jayjg (talk) 04:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- There was a serious suggestion of a different AfD at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_ethnic_Chinese_Nobel_laureates. The nominator gave a clear and coherent explanation of his thinking about why the list should be deleted, making an effort to get people to vote with him to delete it. Now contrast that introduction with your minimal Afd statement: "Non-notable intersection, unlike Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel laureates, which is addressed by many reliable secondary sources. Also trying to address the larger issue here." Perhaps others will understand, even if you do not agree, why I thought that your two nominations were WP:POINTY and his was sincere.betsythedevine (talk) 04:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Betsy, how about you discuss the topic at hand, rather than making untrue personal attacks on other editors. I notice that you didn't make the same false complaints when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates was created above in response to this AfD. This and related inconsistencies are troubling at best. Jayjg (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Jayiq, how about discussing the topic at hand instead of making a WP:POINT by creating two new AfDs, which of course also serves to WP:CANVASS all the people who edit those other articles to read your one-sided denunciation of this AfD so they can come here and !vote. You might start by explaining your rule that anybody, living or dead, who was called Jewish by some cherry-picked WP:RS is Jewish, and that all the many more WP:RS discussions of the person's ancestry that don't say he's Jewish don't count against his inclusion.betsythedevine (talk) 03:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I like to read AfDs before voting, and I was more concerned with the most pressing issues, as I see them. Since when has not participating in the debate over one article been relevant to another in any case? Even the most avid Wikipedian can't participate in every discussion, though I'm sure some try. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, I've !voted delete on all three, just for different reasons. Bulldog123 02:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump and Bulldog123, I understand what you're both saying, but your actions seem to me to be inconsistent with your points; so far you've both only !voted to delete this article, but not the other two. I find this confusing; is there something about this particular list that makes it far more deletion-worthy than the others? I haven't heard that argument yet. Jayjg (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not a single one of the sources Connor added do anything but list Jewish Nobel laureates. Most of them spend less than two paragraphs on the subject and zero provide any sort of scholarly interpretation of the situation. Furthermore, nearly all online sources regarding Jewish Nobel Prize laureates are vanity pages. If external references are all that's needed to make a ethnicity + Nobel Prize list, we might as well get started on list of ethnic German Nobel laureates [1] with List of ethnic Swede Nobel laureates soon to follow. Just because there are more writers concerned with Jewish studies than other ethnic group studies, doesn't mean the intersection automatically fails to be an irrelevant intersection. There is no relevance provided in any single external reading anyone has linked here. (Perhaps with the exception of Charles Murray's book - which, ironically, nobody has bothered to cite - but that then becomes a WP:WEIGHT issue). Bulldog123 02:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been listed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Awards and prizes.—Jayjg (talk) 02:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep - per Brewcrewer & Plot Spoiler. --nsaum75¡שיחת! 02:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Can I point out that even if a decision to 'keep' is made, inclusion of any living person on the list (see WP:LISTPEOPLE) would violate WP:BLP, WP:COP and ultimately WP:EGRS. Policy cannot be overridden for an article 'by consensus'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Can I point out that your claim here is a complete misrepresentation and invention of policy, as has already been proven on the article's Talk: page? Jayjg (talk) 04:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Go on then, point out where exactly on the talk page this has been 'proven'? If you've proven a logical inconsistency in Wikipedia policy (which you seem to be suggesting), why haven't you brought this to wider attention?AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- To begin with, please don't make claims on my behalf that I certainly haven't made or "suggested". I haven't "proven a logical inconsistency in Wikipedia policy", I've disproven your claims about Wikipedia policy. These are entirely different things. And there's no point in repeating that discussion here; a review of the article's talk page will rapidly reveal the necessary information. Jayjg (talk) 04:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, then, 'rapidly reveal it' then. Or if you like, take all night. I'm off to bed now, as I don't see much point in arguing with somebody who says something exists, but won't actually tell us where it is in sufficient detail to check. The article talk page is full of tendentious waffle, and very little discussion of what Wikipedia policy actually is, from what I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't made all that many comments on the article's talk page, and they're pretty clear, and deal specifically and only with policy. If you can't be bothered to read them, it's not my issue. By the way, since you assert you as very concerned about BLP policy, have you had a chance to review Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors, which discuss articles that actually and seriously violate policy? Jayjg (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, then, 'rapidly reveal it' then. Or if you like, take all night. I'm off to bed now, as I don't see much point in arguing with somebody who says something exists, but won't actually tell us where it is in sufficient detail to check. The article talk page is full of tendentious waffle, and very little discussion of what Wikipedia policy actually is, from what I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- To begin with, please don't make claims on my behalf that I certainly haven't made or "suggested". I haven't "proven a logical inconsistency in Wikipedia policy", I've disproven your claims about Wikipedia policy. These are entirely different things. And there's no point in repeating that discussion here; a review of the article's talk page will rapidly reveal the necessary information. Jayjg (talk) 04:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Go on then, point out where exactly on the talk page this has been 'proven'? If you've proven a logical inconsistency in Wikipedia policy (which you seem to be suggesting), why haven't you brought this to wider attention?AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Can I point out that your claim here is a complete misrepresentation and invention of policy, as has already been proven on the article's Talk: page? Jayjg (talk) 04:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Can I point out that even if a decision to 'keep' is made, inclusion of any living person on the list (see WP:LISTPEOPLE) would violate WP:BLP, WP:COP and ultimately WP:EGRS. Policy cannot be overridden for an article 'by consensus'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You know what's sad? One of the references in the "Further Reading" section of this book has the following footnote:
- A family member intervened, claiming that Otto Warburg would "turn in his grave" if he knew that he were presented as a "Jewish Nobel Laureate." - Jews and sciences in German contexts: case studies from the 19th and 20th ... By Ulrich Charpa, Ute Deichmann Pg 26
- This issue apparently extends to dead as well. Bulldog123 02:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- ...And with that, can there be a reply? I think we'll not see a better reason why such listcruft shouldn't be permitted in what is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a stamp collector's album. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- ...Richard Feynman would have been another opt-out, as he was from a 1960s book on Jewish laureates, when he wrote to its author "requesting not to be included in your work. I am expecting that you will respect my wishes."betsythedevine (talk) 03:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- ...And with that, can there be a reply? I think we'll not see a better reason why such listcruft shouldn't be permitted in what is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a stamp collector's album. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You know what's sad? One of the references in the "Further Reading" section of this book has the following footnote:
Here you go:
- Richard P. Feynman to Tina Levitan, February 7, 1967
- Dear Miss Levitan:
- In your letter you express the theory that people of Jewish origin have inherited their valuable hereditary elements from their people. It is quite certain that many things are inherited but it is evil and dangerous to maintain, in these days of little knowledge of these matters, that there is a true Jewish race or specific Jewish hereditary character. Many races as well as cultural influences of men of all kinds have mixed into any man. To select, for approbation the peculiar elements that come from some supposedly Jewish heredity is to open the door to all kinds of nonsense on racial theory.
- Such theoretical views were used by Hitler. Surely you cannot maintain on the one hand that certain valuable elements can be inherited from the "Jewish people," and deny that other elements which other people may find annoying or worse are not inherited by these same "people." Nor could you then deny that elements that others would consider valuable could be the main virtue of an "Aryan" inheritance.
- It is the lesson of the last war not to think of people as having special inherited attributes simply because they are born from particular parents, but to try to teach these "valuable" elements to all men because all men can learn, no matter what their race.
- It is the combination of characteristics of the culture of any father and his father plus the learning and ideas and influences of people of all races and backgrounds which make me what I am, good or bad. I appreciate the valuable (and the negative) elements of my background but I feel it to be bad taste and an insult to other peoples to call attention in any direct way to that one element in my composition.
- At almost thirteen I dropped out of Sunday school just before confirmation because of differences in religious views but mainly because I suddenly saw that the picture of Jewish history that we were learning, of a marvelous and talented people surrounded by dull and evil strangers was far from the truth. The error of anti-Semitism is not that the Jews are not really bad after all, but that evil, stupidity and grossness is not a monopoly of the Jewish people but a universal characteristic of mankind in general. Most non-Jewish people in America today have understood that. The error of pro-Semitism is not that the Jewish people or Jewish heritage is not really good, but rather the error is that intelligence, good will, and kindness is not, thank God, a monopoly of the Jewish people but a universal characteristic of mankind in general.
- Therefore you see at thirteen I was not only converted to other religious views but I also stopped believing that the Jewish people are in any way "the chosen people." This is my other reason for requesting not to be included in your work.
- I am expecting that you will respect my wishes.
- Sincerely yours,
- Richard Feynman
Concise, and to the point. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I have no interest in getting involved in another absurd Afd timesink, but it needs to be said, that in addition to being a brilliant scientist, Feynman was also known for some very strange views. For example, he apparently had difficulty accepting the germ theory of disease, as he believed that tooth brushing was unncessary and that hand washing, especially after using the toilet, was a "superstition". Viriditas (talk) 09:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong keep per brewcrewer.--Mbz1 (talk) 03:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong delete per Richard Feynman. One of the sources in the article says The figure for the total number of Jewish nobel Prize winners varies slightly, depending on the strictness of the "Who's a Jew?" definition. There is no need to create a list on a term that even the sources agree is not well defined. I think a list on Nobel Romance-speaking Nobel Laureates would be less controversial and better defined. Nergaal (talk) 05:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep per arguments articulated by Jayjg and JoshuaZ--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 06:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note I cannot stop wondering how many of the keep votes are from people who see themselves Jewish. Nergaal (talk) 07:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe not, but you could have stopped yourself from saying it. --Avenue (talk) 08:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Nergaal really didn't say anything uncivil, so I don't see why he has to keep himself from "mentioning that." The truth of the matter is none of the users who are so vehemently trying to keep this list alive have not even commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates -- which is an IDENTICAL situation. Bulldog123 13:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Nergal said, in effect, "you only did that because you're a Jew", which is highly inappropriate at best. In addition, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates is, in fact, a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT situation, primarily because we don't have multiple, reliable secondary sources commenting on the intersection of "Chinese" and "Nobel laureates". On the other hand, we do have multiple, reliable secondary sources commenting on the notable intersection "Jewish" and "Nobel laureates". And here's the real "truth of the matter"; almost none of the users who are so vehemently trying trying to keep this list have even commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors -- which are FAR WORSE situations. It's clear the issue is not that people are concerned with BLP per se, but are actually concerned that Jews in general, or perhaps specific individuals such as Geim or Feynmann, be associated with being Jewish Nobel laureates. This has become blindingly obvious; it's mostly an issue because 3 or 4 editors want to keep Geim off the list, and attempt to win an editing dispute by deleting the article. Thus, the reasons for advocating the deletion of this list have, in reality, nothing to do with policy (I exclude you from this, Bulldog123, since you are one of the few editors who has actually advanced a consistent position on this topic). Jayjg (talk) 17:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- What Neergal said was unwarranted, and a breach of WP:NPA. However, I consider Jayjg's later response that "the issue is not that people are concerned with BLP per se, but are actually concerned that Jews in general, or perhaps specific individuals such as Geim or Feynmann, be associated with being Jewish Nobel laureates" to be a much more gross generalisation and a more grave breach of WP:NPA, giving a clear intimation of prejudice. I think it shows the weakness of some arguments presented here that such attacks are being resorted to. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't intimated prejudice, I've pointed out, quite factually, that many of the "delete" voters here are concerned with an extremely narrow issue with one or two individuals on one list, mostly unrelated to policy, rather than the larger systemic issues, policies and problems they claim to be concerned about. And I've also pointed out that their inconsistencies are what really "shows the weakness of some arguments presented here". See more at my comment below. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep per User Jayjg (talk · contribs)'s logical arguments. IZAK (talk) 08:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete - List of Nobel laureates with red hair, List of Nobel laureates who dyed their hair blue, List of Nobel laureates with brown eyes, List of Nobel laureates who have visited Paris, List of Amish Nobel laureates, ... --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do you truly regard these as being of equal significance, or of being of equal interest? DGG ( talk ) 05:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, but I don't think that this one passes the threshold either.... --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do you truly regard these as being of equal significance, or of being of equal interest? DGG ( talk ) 05:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete This is an arbitrary intersection. Yes, there are plenty of people promoting Jewish culture who are interested in the topic of which people of Jewish heritage have achieved some success, and accordingly there are several references where enthusiasts have likewise listed Jewish Nobel Prize winners. However, every other significant grouping of people has similar enthusiasts who would like to publish any connection between their group and some form of success. Wikipedia should only have intersection lists where there is some independent study of the intersection as a topic (e.g. How does being Jewish affect winning this prize? If the loose criteria for being "Jewish" were applied to other groups of similar size, would the other group have some significantly different result with regard to this prize?). This list has no encyclopedic purpose other than original research to promote a POV with regard to the success of a particular religion/ethnicity/elastic grouping. Johnuniq (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep - Non trivial intersection; some recipients are notable for being Jewish, and for being Nobel Prize laureates. Perfectly allowable under WP:SALAT. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Unquestionably strong Keep The principle should be that every defined binary ethnic or religious or national intersection with occupations or professions or prizes or anything else ought to be kept, both as a list and a category--the only ones that should require evidence of the intersection itself being significant are tertiary intersections, and the standard of proof for that should not be very onerous. The only difficulty with these in particular is whether to regard "Jewish" as ethnic or religious or genetically related population group--this debate is not going to be settled at Wikipedia, so all we can do is go by the broadest sense, including any one of these, using the criterion of either self-identifies or generally recognized by multiple reliable sources including those from outside the group involved--i.e., a Ruritanian source is likely to over identify people as being Ruritanian in dubious cases. People come to encyclopedias for this sort of collected information, and in case of doubt, that should be our criterion--with respect to our own identity: free, and open, and uncensored, however important, are just adjectives qualifying the truly basic concept, that we are an encyclopedia. this is not promotional, but informative. the proof that it is merely informative, is that it could be used equally to show the true importance or the unfair over-represenbtation of the Jewish winners--this is purely neutral information. I see no reason why people interested in promoting Jewish culture would be the only ones interested. I'd like to see a similar list for Buddhist , or Irish--and I have no conceivable special interest in them. DGG ( talk ) 05:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- And this is not WP:INTERESTING because... ? "The body social: symbolism, self, and society" By Anthony Synnott is an academic publication with a pretty thorough section on blonde celebrities. So, list of blonde actresses is okay right? Don't tell me people wouldn't be interested in that. It's the whole reason most people dye their hair. Bulldog123 17:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep There is an intersection between Jews and Nobel laureates. The article is merely a compilation of those intersections. I don't think it matters whether these intersections occur frequently or infrequently. As long as it is kept accurate it potentially serves a useful purpose. Bus stop (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
- Comment to all those that try to interpret my comment: seriously guys that is not a racist comment and I do not have a problem with any jew I know. What I do find disappointing though that users here do try to diverge the attention from the actual article by overly-interpreting the comments made. I think that any controversial AFD like this one should require users to reveal their COIs and my original comment was only meant to suggest that. I do not think separating by ethnicity is either encyclopedic or constructive for the project or to the humankind itself. Nergaal (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I don't really see how it's a COI to identify as Jewish and to !vote here, but... I would prefer if everyone could give a better reasoning than "Jews are an ethnicity and this list is notable." Plus, I think everyone gets super sensitive whenever these types of lists are nominated and interpret every off-color remark as a personal attack. Bulldog123 18:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment to all those that try to interpret my comment: seriously guys that is not a racist comment and I do not have a problem with any jew I know. What I do find disappointing though that users here do try to diverge the attention from the actual article by overly-interpreting the comments made. I think that any controversial AFD like this one should require users to reveal their COIs and my original comment was only meant to suggest that. I do not think separating by ethnicity is either encyclopedic or constructive for the project or to the humankind itself. Nergaal (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- What nergal said was an antisemitic comment that smells really bad, and BTW this comment "I do not have a problem with any jew I know" is an antisemitic comment too.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I can find no evidence that Nergaal (doesn't anyone spell names right? I see I got it wrong too...) contributed to the page linked. Your comments are once again a clear breach of WP:NPA. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Huh? Nergaal (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mbz1, I suggest you apologise promptly for the false allegation you made about Nergaal, rather than attempting to hide it by masking its deletion with a misleading edit summary: the diff shows it clearly enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- It was a mistake and I reverted it. There's nothing else to be said about this. I suggest you stop suggesting what I should do, and I assure you I am not going to apologize for calling antisemitic comments "antisemitic comments"--Mbz1 (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Naturally, we have accusations of antisemitism again. As is always the case in these AfDs. Bulldog123 20:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- It was a mistake and I reverted it. There's nothing else to be said about this. I suggest you stop suggesting what I should do, and I assure you I am not going to apologize for calling antisemitic comments "antisemitic comments"--Mbz1 (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mbz1, I suggest you apologise promptly for the false allegation you made about Nergaal, rather than attempting to hide it by masking its deletion with a misleading edit summary: the diff shows it clearly enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- What nergal said was an antisemitic comment that smells really bad, and BTW this comment "I do not have a problem with any jew I know" is an antisemitic comment too.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- keep - Per Christopher Connor this is a notable intersection covered in reliable secondary sources. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong delete - Wikipedia is NOT a directory - inclusion of any living person on the list (see WP:LISTPEOPLE) would violate WP:BLP, WP:COP and ultimately WP:EGRS. It all depends on what criteria you use, the recent disruption by users at this article and a BLP in an attempt to include someone that is clearly not Jewish, is an example of why this dubious list is a disrupted net loss. Off2riorob (talk) 08:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ultra-Supremium Megatron-Softy Keep -- With sugar on top! - Serisouly, though. This is a keep. There is a disproportionate number of Jews who were awarded the prize, to the point where the Arab world speaks of it were a conspiracy. Last I heard, it were 22% of the nobel winners (maybe in certain categories) when Jews consist of approximately 0.2% of the global population. I think brewcrewer and others iterated a similar point -- this subject is very noteworthy and anyone who reads material on it would be interested in checking out a list of Jewish winners -- this is why wikipedia was created -- to share knowledge between people. Several editors expressed concern regarding disruptive conduct, but we have those in many articles relating to Jewish people (see Jerusalem diff) and we can handle such issues without wiping out public-interest encyclopaedic content. Keep. JaakobouChalk Talk 08:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- > this subject is very noteworthy and anyone who reads material on it would be interested in checking out a list of Jewish winners
- There isn't going to be anybody curious about this because there is no material on it. I don't know how many times this can be stressed. I feel like a broken record. Not a single one of the provided secondary sources in this article academically probes the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize. Over half are vanity publications and the others spend less than two paragraphs remarking on Jewish overrepresentation in fields of academia. The one, only, singular source that briefly STUDIES the relationship between Jews and the Nobel Prize is Charles Murray's sociology article. This is not Charles Murray's wikipedia. If it were, we would also need to create List of black criminals as there's plenty of research of his that considers that too. Bulldog123 14:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- >22% of the nobel winners (maybe in certain categories) when Jews consist of approximately 0.2% of the global population
- It's a nice statistic, but it's also synthesis of unrelated information - 100% of the world population is not in the field of chemistry/physics/medicine/or literature and 100% of the world population is not eligible to be awarded the Nobel Prize even if they were. A statistic worth mentioning might be the population of eligible academics in Nobel committee approved institutions versus Nobel Prize winners. Which, given the Jewish faculty at places like UPenn, is probably not going to be overrepresented by much - if at all. The question of WHY Jews are overrepresented in eligible faculties is something of encyclopedic value (environmental? genetic? divine?), but this list is not. Bulldog123 15:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per Richard Feynman. His statement is a brilliant explanation of why this list is irrelevant. Unless someone can show in what way this intersection is notable, then this article has no purpose. Even if criteria were not being stretched, and the list abused (which some comments above suggest is happening), it would be unnecessary. I would take the same position regarding most of the lists above suggested either as positive or negative examples; though the List of Jewish anarchists mentioned by Jayjg may indeed (I haven't yet looked at it) reflect something more that ethnic knee-jerk listing. RolandR (talk) 08:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- May I suggest you reread Feynman's letter? Feynman isn't saying such lists are intrinsically bad. He's objecting to the fact that the list which included him was part of an attempt to push certain views claiming that the proportion of Jews with Nobel prizes was due to inherited traits. That's a very different claim. Feynman is objecting to that. Nothing in in his argument objects to such lists as such. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong keep Per RolandR, aside for Richard Feynman statement that overall is only one view (not necessarily a valid one) but I consider witty (yet wrong) by itself-all other reasons Roland counted actually sharpened why I should vote opposite than him. It's an encyclopedia and not a memorial site which follows desist people last willing.--Gilisa (talk) 10:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You do understand you haven't provided a single reason detailing how this list is of encyclopedic value -- which is what the argument is. The argument is not "Delete this list because Feynman wouldn't like it." Bulldog123 14:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Titanium keep per Plot Spoiler, and actually per RolandR and Richard Freyman who is merely in denial, but that is his right. 'Jews' are a people. The religion is the traditions of this people. It is notable to show the disproportionate number not to prove they are better (certainly not to compare with some 'Aryan' people claims though they make good cars and their economy is one of the few that have export surplus), but in fact the importance of education is important to the Jewish people. --Shuki (talk) 10:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- None of which is a policy or even a guideline, whoever closes this AFD needs to read well. Off2riorob (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- and Richard Freyman who is merely in denial You're not being very subtle. Bulldog123 14:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually "and Richard [Feynman] who is merely in denial" doesn't just lack subtlety, it is obnoxious POV-pushing drivel, from someone who can't even be bothered to spell his name right. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- and Richard Freyman who is merely in denial You're not being very subtle. Bulldog123 14:23, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- None of which is a policy or even a guideline, whoever closes this AFD needs to read well. Off2riorob (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Shuki, could we please stay on topic? Whether Jews are a people or a religion or a culture or a group of aliens is not relevant to whether the article should be included. And if you are going to make nasty remarks about one of the most brilliant humans in the last century, the least you could do is spell his name correctly. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- keep, there can be no serious doubt about the notability of this topic, instead the nomination appears to come from the difficulty some people are having with categorization -- and indeed the difficulties others are having in understanding anything much about Jews. I'm finding it tiresome to continually encounter this business: "oh, it's just too much of a hassle, let's just nuke it". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: "the difficulty some people are having with categorization" is exactly the point. Some people (including Feynman) think that dividing people into arbitrary categories on the basis of supposed 'ethnic' or 'religious' roots, rather than on what the people themselves consider appropriate, has a long and ugly history, and is not anything that Wikipedia should chose to engage in for the convenience of those who wish to compile lists. As for the comment about "others" having difficulties "understanding anything much about Jews" I'd ask exactly how you know which "others" are and are not Jewish themselves? Not that this is of the slightest consequence regarding the topic under discussion - it seems instead to be a mere insinuation of ulterior motives, and has no place on a Wikipedia talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Another who would agree with Feynman is Andre Geim. Here was response to an Israeli interviewer: "As for his decision to come to Israel, he said, 'My mother's grandmother was Jewish. I suffered from anti-Semitism in Russia because my name sounds Jewish, so I identify with you. Nonetheless, I don’t divide the world by religions or countries, but by stupid people and slightly less stupid people, and I hope that I am numbered among the second group. Israel has several cultural characteristics which result in an especially high proportion of the less stupid people.'"betsythedevine (talk) 15:52, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Your biases are interfering with your interpretation. (by that I do not mean at all to imply anti-semitism) You cannot know that Geim would have agreed with Feynman based on that comment alone. Geim even contradicts himself in the final sentence by saying Israel has "less stupid people." If we were to follow this statement with Wikipedia action, we would have no articles on countries (except Israel?) or religions. Just long lists of stupid people and not-so-stupid people. KantElope (talk) 21:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Strong Keep per the supporters above and Raphael Patai, who says: "While it would be giving too much credit to the Nobel Prize Committee to assume that, in selecting the recipients of the prizes, it infallibly comes up each time with a man of genius, there can be no doubt that in general the laureates are men of extraordinary accomplishments....In any case, the Nobel Prize winners constitute what is unquestionabley the most elite group among men of unsual intellecutal achievement. Hence there is at present no better yardstick for measuring Jewish intellectual preeminence that the record of Jews among the laureates. from The Jewish mind by Raphael Patai Wayne State University Press 1996 [2] If someone wishes to be excluded from this list for reasons such as Feynmen has iterated, we can either respect that and leave it out or we can make a clear note that a person wishes to opt out.KantElope (talk) 17:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)- Comment'Sadly, I'd not suggest that Raphael Patai can be taken as a neutral or reliable source on this question. Particularly given the way his book 'The Arab Mind' has be subject to criticism for its negative portrayal of Arabs, and for its use as a NeoCon guide to methods of repression in the Middle East. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, I have not read his book about the Arab Mind so I cannot discuss that one way or the other. On the other hand, Googling in Google Books for "Jewish Nobel Prize winners" brings up 380 results that use just those words to describe certain Nobel Prize winners. As far as I know, none of the authors has been sued by anyone for mistakenly id-ing them. As I said earlier, if someone should object that they are mistakenly id'ed as "Jewish," that could be easily fixed. KantElope (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Raphael Patai was a respected scholar, and author of dozens of respected works; please stick to relevant discussion of the policies and this article. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment'Sadly, I'd not suggest that Raphael Patai can be taken as a neutral or reliable source on this question. Particularly given the way his book 'The Arab Mind' has be subject to criticism for its negative portrayal of Arabs, and for its use as a NeoCon guide to methods of repression in the Middle East. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question why do we have a list on Jewish Nobel laureates but none on the American laureates? That list is less controversial and better defined, and is more notable because it contains about 1/3 of all nominees. Also, UK, Germany, and a few others are comparable in size to this list and they do not exist. Nergaal (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: Here's what really astounds me about this AfD. I've been trying to deal with the issue of Jewish lists and categories literally for years, trying to ensure that the non-notable intersections are deleted, or if kept, that policy is adhered to, and non-cited items and BLP violations are removed. I've spent tens of hours mostly deleting names from them or, failing that, at least trying to cite them. It has been a thankless task; I've met with huge opposition every step of the way, and have at times even ended up at AN/I over this issue. Yet now, because a small number of people want to set up special rules to exclude a specific individual (Andre Geim) from one list, they devote huge amounts of effort and mostly spurious non-policy-related argumentation to that end. Wikipedia has hundreds of Jew lists and categories, and thousands of articles in the Jew categories, and they're mostly garbage. Where were you all when people were idiotically adding James Franco and a hundred other people to categories like Category:Sephardi Jews or Category:Russian American Jews [3][4]? When people were trying to add hundreds of unsourced or improperly sourced names to lists like List of Jewish actors or List of Jewish American businesspeople?[5][6][7][8][9]? Where are you all now, when you actually have a chance to get rid of some of the worst of these lists, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers? Sorry to have to be so blunt, but based on their actions so far, it's pretty clear that very few of those actually voting "delete" here really care about overall policy or systemic BLP issues raised by these lists and categories. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, from my point of view it is the people who want to include Geim that are making up rules. The words "Jew" and "Jewish" are ambiguous. They can indicate religious belief. Nowhere does the article title or the lead of the article specify "of Jewish ethnicity" or "of Jewish ancestry". Since we are using ambiguous terms here, the part of WP:BLP that says when in doubt, leave it out, applies. Due to the additional restrictions of BLP, we have to treat the ambiguity in the most cautious possible way; thus, we have to assume the words will be read as an indication of religion and include only those who can be reliably sourced as personally identifying as Jewish rather than all those who someone has called Jewish. Yworo (talk) 18:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Look, I feel for you. I've been witness to the absolute pandemonium concerning Jewish lists/categories (and X-American lists/categories) over the years. And I would have helped you with the James Franco issue and all... but it just tends to give me migraines. Look at this: Category:Romanian American Jews. Monica Lewinsky is in that cat. I don't think Monica Lewinsky could point out Romania on a friggin' map. I don't get why articles like Gwenyth Paltrow need sentences like "Paltrow's paternal great-grandfather, whose surname was "Paltrowicz", was a rabbi in little Nowogród, Poland" What the heck does any of that add to this encyclopedia? It's not like Paltrow even knows what a rabbi's responsibilities are... much less where Nowogród, Poland is... or even Poland itself. I honestly just don't know what to do about it anymore. It's cancer. You're chemo, but chemo doesn't always work. Bulldog123 18:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- "Where were you all when people were idiotically adding James Franco and a hundred other people to categories like Category:Sephardi Jews...". Personally? Not editing Wikipedia. Any other loaded questions you'd like to ask? These ridiculous insinuations of prejudice aren't doing anyone's cause any good. Put a cork in it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't insinuated any prejudice, and even if you weren't editing Wikipedia then, you're all over it now. Your continued conspicuous absence at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers is noted, and belies anything you've claimed here. Jayjg (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I started editing several months ago. I don't have a time machine.--Therexbanner (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're here now. List of Jewish American cartoonists has exactly one source in it, and it's a far less notable intersection than Jewish Nobel laureates. So, what do you plan to do about it? I'd AfD it myself, but I don't want to be endlessly and falsely accused again of WP:POINT. Jayjg (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American cartoonists. It's been ridiculously languishing around for three years. Bulldog123 21:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- English Wiki has 3+ million articles, you can't possibly expect me to know all of them by heart. If someone nominates it, I'll support it. I also voted on your actors/entertainers nominations recently. By the way, this doesn't have to stick to the Jewish lists, other lists that violate policies (like the ethnic Chinese one) should be nominated for AfD too.--Therexbanner (talk) 20:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- It has been: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates. Although people tend to think the Jewish one is somehow more legitimate -- even though the Chinese and Jews both value education and are overrepresented in the sciences almost the same way. Bulldog123 21:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're here now. List of Jewish American cartoonists has exactly one source in it, and it's a far less notable intersection than Jewish Nobel laureates. So, what do you plan to do about it? I'd AfD it myself, but I don't want to be endlessly and falsely accused again of WP:POINT. Jayjg (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing at all. I'm here now, and I'm working on the issue I consider of most significance. I was unaware that other contributors could tell me where I should be working. Perhaps you'd like to indicate which policy entitles you to do this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- That post was to Therexbanner. The extreme inconsistency between your claimed motivations and actual actions has been noted and well-documented. It is no longer surprising, but still belies all your claims, and completely undermines your arguments here. Jayjg (talk) 20:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing at all. I'm here now, and I'm working on the issue I consider of most significance. I was unaware that other contributors could tell me where I should be working. Perhaps you'd like to indicate which policy entitles you to do this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Since this now seems to have degenerated into a name-calling session:
Can I point out once again that even if a decision to 'keep' is made, inclusion of any living person on the list (see WP:LISTPEOPLE) would violate WP:BLP, WP:COP and ultimately WP:EGRS. Policy cannot be overridden for an article 'by consensus'. I fully intend to ensure that this policy is kept to, and may choose delete any contraventions immediately. If people wish to see Wikipedia policy on this matter changed, this isn't the place to do it.
(And in response to anyone asking why I'd do this here, and not elsewhere, I can only say that (a) I'm not the only person responsible for ensuring policy is adhered to, and (b) The level of debate here shows the need for particular attention. Frankly, I've got other subjects I'd rather be looking into). AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Andy, you are the only person who seems to think that a list of this sort would by nature violate BLP to include living people. And no one (including me) seems to understand what your logic for this would be. I'm incidentally curious if you think that including Robert Aumann on such a list would be a BLP problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:02, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- This is quite simple, really. Robert Aumann is a notable person because he has won a Nobel Prize. This notability, combined with his self-identification as Jewish (I assume he does) makes him eligible for a list of 'Notable Jewish people'. He is also eligible for inclusion on a list of 'Nobel Prize laureates', as this confers automatic notability. There is nothing whatsoever inherently notable linking his being Jewish with winning a Nobel prize in Economics. The list is an arbitrary intersection between a (vaguely-defined) ethnicity and a list of prizewinners. There is nothing to support the suggestion that the intersection itself is of any note: it is instead a synthesis created by those who wish to create the list. I'd sggest that people actually read what policy states, rather than assuming you can cherry-pick through it to suit a particular purpose. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:15, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that people should actually read what policy says rather than cherry-pick to suit a particular purpose. I doubt you'd find anyone who disagrees with that bit of rhetoric. So what part of policy are you using to assert that any such list would violate BLP? (Hint by the way, there's a specific reason I choose Aumann as an example...) JoshuaZ (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest you take a look at what WP:LISTPEOPLE says. As I've already illustrated here with an hypothetical example. A List of Albanians is ok because the criteria are 'Albanian' and 'Notable': the list can include all 'notable Albanians': no Albanian can be excluded for any reason other than non-notability, which is the normal Wikipedia standard for rejecting anything. That is really all it says on the subject. A List of Albanian Nobel laureates on the other hand is (taking as read that winning a Nobel Prize is notable) a synthesis - the intersection of Albanians and Nobel laureates: there is nothing notable about the intersection (or if there is, strong WP:RS will be needed to show this notability, e.g. that it is discussed in a meaningful manner in appropriate texts as an intersection with an explanation for why this intersection is itself notable). Now possibly there is something notable in itself that links Aumann's ethnicity with his Nobel Prize, but if so the notability is his and not a general attribute of Jewish Nobel laureates. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Andy, please reread what LISTPEOPLE says, and then apply your analysis to Robert Aumann. Since you aren't getting the point: Aumann is an example (one of quite a few) where his notability as a religious Jew is in some ways connected to his work in probability and related issues. If you want a more blunt example, Yitzhak Rabin's Nobel Prize was deeply connected to his being an Israeli Jew. So at minimum, your claim that any inclusion of living people would somehow violate BLP or LISTPEOPLE is wrong. In any event, if you are trying to (erroneously) claim there's a LISTPEOPLE violation and are not trying to claim there's a BLP violation, then the overall claim you are making is much weaker, precisely because BLP is a much more serious issue than LISTPEOPLE. Moreover, as has already been explained this specific intersection is noteworthy rather than an arbitrary intersection because the unusually large nature of the intersection has been remarked upon in reliable sources. Thus, we now seem to be in a position where you are agreeing that there's no BLP issue, just a possible LISTPEOPLE issue, and even that argument seems quite weak. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:13, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:LISTPEOPLE says that "Lists of people must follow Wikipedia's policy on biographical information about living people": BLP includes lists of living people by definition.
- Andy, please reread what LISTPEOPLE says, and then apply your analysis to Robert Aumann. Since you aren't getting the point: Aumann is an example (one of quite a few) where his notability as a religious Jew is in some ways connected to his work in probability and related issues. If you want a more blunt example, Yitzhak Rabin's Nobel Prize was deeply connected to his being an Israeli Jew. So at minimum, your claim that any inclusion of living people would somehow violate BLP or LISTPEOPLE is wrong. In any event, if you are trying to (erroneously) claim there's a LISTPEOPLE violation and are not trying to claim there's a BLP violation, then the overall claim you are making is much weaker, precisely because BLP is a much more serious issue than LISTPEOPLE. Moreover, as has already been explained this specific intersection is noteworthy rather than an arbitrary intersection because the unusually large nature of the intersection has been remarked upon in reliable sources. Thus, we now seem to be in a position where you are agreeing that there's no BLP issue, just a possible LISTPEOPLE issue, and even that argument seems quite weak. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:13, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest you take a look at what WP:LISTPEOPLE says. As I've already illustrated here with an hypothetical example. A List of Albanians is ok because the criteria are 'Albanian' and 'Notable': the list can include all 'notable Albanians': no Albanian can be excluded for any reason other than non-notability, which is the normal Wikipedia standard for rejecting anything. That is really all it says on the subject. A List of Albanian Nobel laureates on the other hand is (taking as read that winning a Nobel Prize is notable) a synthesis - the intersection of Albanians and Nobel laureates: there is nothing notable about the intersection (or if there is, strong WP:RS will be needed to show this notability, e.g. that it is discussed in a meaningful manner in appropriate texts as an intersection with an explanation for why this intersection is itself notable). Now possibly there is something notable in itself that links Aumann's ethnicity with his Nobel Prize, but if so the notability is his and not a general attribute of Jewish Nobel laureates. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that people should actually read what policy says rather than cherry-pick to suit a particular purpose. I doubt you'd find anyone who disagrees with that bit of rhetoric. So what part of policy are you using to assert that any such list would violate BLP? (Hint by the way, there's a specific reason I choose Aumann as an example...) JoshuaZ (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- This is quite simple, really. Robert Aumann is a notable person because he has won a Nobel Prize. This notability, combined with his self-identification as Jewish (I assume he does) makes him eligible for a list of 'Notable Jewish people'. He is also eligible for inclusion on a list of 'Nobel Prize laureates', as this confers automatic notability. There is nothing whatsoever inherently notable linking his being Jewish with winning a Nobel prize in Economics. The list is an arbitrary intersection between a (vaguely-defined) ethnicity and a list of prizewinners. There is nothing to support the suggestion that the intersection itself is of any note: it is instead a synthesis created by those who wish to create the list. I'd sggest that people actually read what policy states, rather than assuming you can cherry-pick through it to suit a particular purpose. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:15, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Andy, you are the only person who seems to think that a list of this sort would by nature violate BLP to include living people. And no one (including me) seems to understand what your logic for this would be. I'm incidentally curious if you think that including Robert Aumann on such a list would be a BLP problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:02, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- As for whether Aumann's "notability as a religious Jew is in some ways connected to his work in probability and related issues", I'd say that is for you to provide a neutral WP:RS for. Even if it is true, it will apply to him, his work, and his prize. It is on no significance to anyone else on a list. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Andy, you may want to work on your reading comprehension. Or your logic skills. Or some combination thereof. Of course lists have to follow BLP. But you seem to be trying to argue that that somehow that means that any LISTPEOPLE issue is a BLP issue. That's not what the quoted sentence says. As to the Aumann thing, it is actually in his article if you read it. A major reason his opinion on the so-called Bible codes is that he's a religious Jew who had a Nobel prize in math related issues and thus people care about his opinion. And of course Aumann's specific situation doesn't impact whether others should be on the list. The reason why Aumann is relevant is because you claimed that such a list couldn't have any living people on it for BLP reasons. Aumann is simply one of the most interesting and blatant examples of how that claim has no basis in policy or reality. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Firstly, see WP:NPA. Secondly, WP:LISTPEOPLE states that for living people, BLP principles apply - which in this case comes down to the provisions in WP:EGRS. As for your final point, I'd say this is totally irrelevant to the topic under debate. Aumann's views on matters of religion may be regarded more highly because he has a Nobel laureate, but he didn't win the Prize because of anything related to his ethnicity, and that is supposed to be the reason he is on the list. Of course, if my claim "has no basis in policy or reality" then any attempt on my part to remove somebody from the list on the basis that their inclusion violates WP:EGRS will fail. I'd almost be tempted to try Aumann as a test case if I wasn't convinced that this list will have to be deleted anyway, as the case for it breaching policy is so strong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- You don't mean NPA. You presumably mean CIVIL. Saying someone is failing to logically apply or read policy isn't NPA. It is just a fact. If someone said someone was an idiot that would be an NPA. In any event, at this point you are just repeating yourself. So I'll simply note that EGRS is not a subpolicy of BLP but a guideline. This seems about representative of the many issues with your above comment (another noteworthy one is not understanding the point about Aumann. The point there is not what he won the Nobel for. It is subsequent events related to his Nobel and other things he has done and been asked to do.) At this point, it doesn't seem that any further attempt to convince you is likely to go anywhere. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Frankly, having to nit-pick over the difference between a policy and a guideline (and between NPA and CIVIL) to support a list has got to be indicative of a weak argument. Guidelines are supposed to be followed with "occasional exceptions" and I don't see any rational arguments so far for "exceptions" in this case - just assertions that rules shouldn't apply. Can you actually suggest any reason why the guideline shouldn't be followed? And as for Aumann, 'other things he has done' afterwards are utterly irrelevant to his inclusion on the list, which is supposed by its own criteria to be of people who (a) are of Jewish ethnicity, and (b) have won a Nobel Laureate. If you are suggesting that Aumann only gets included because of additional criteria, can you tell us what these are? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- No. The difference between policy and guideline is critical here when the policy in question is BLP and the guideline is just a guideline. Interpretation of guidelines (again specific interpretation) is a very different claim than any claim that something follows from BLP which is one of the strongest policies in question. I don't see what you aren't getting about the Aumann issue. Aumann was used as an example for your claim that having any living people on such a list would run afoul of BLP. Do you not see why he is a counterexample to that claim and a variety of other claims you are making? Let's be explicit: Aumann is notable for his religious and ethnic heritage and his Nobel prize and much of the coverage of him in the last few years has been precisely in the context of him as someone so prominent to have a Nobel to have certain opinions about some issues related to his religious beliefs. This example is intended primarily as a counterexample to your claim that any inclusion of a living person on such a list would be a BLP violation. If you don't see how he's a counterexample then I'm not sure what to say. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Frankly, having to nit-pick over the difference between a policy and a guideline (and between NPA and CIVIL) to support a list has got to be indicative of a weak argument. Guidelines are supposed to be followed with "occasional exceptions" and I don't see any rational arguments so far for "exceptions" in this case - just assertions that rules shouldn't apply. Can you actually suggest any reason why the guideline shouldn't be followed? And as for Aumann, 'other things he has done' afterwards are utterly irrelevant to his inclusion on the list, which is supposed by its own criteria to be of people who (a) are of Jewish ethnicity, and (b) have won a Nobel Laureate. If you are suggesting that Aumann only gets included because of additional criteria, can you tell us what these are? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- You don't mean NPA. You presumably mean CIVIL. Saying someone is failing to logically apply or read policy isn't NPA. It is just a fact. If someone said someone was an idiot that would be an NPA. In any event, at this point you are just repeating yourself. So I'll simply note that EGRS is not a subpolicy of BLP but a guideline. This seems about representative of the many issues with your above comment (another noteworthy one is not understanding the point about Aumann. The point there is not what he won the Nobel for. It is subsequent events related to his Nobel and other things he has done and been asked to do.) At this point, it doesn't seem that any further attempt to convince you is likely to go anywhere. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Firstly, see WP:NPA. Secondly, WP:LISTPEOPLE states that for living people, BLP principles apply - which in this case comes down to the provisions in WP:EGRS. As for your final point, I'd say this is totally irrelevant to the topic under debate. Aumann's views on matters of religion may be regarded more highly because he has a Nobel laureate, but he didn't win the Prize because of anything related to his ethnicity, and that is supposed to be the reason he is on the list. Of course, if my claim "has no basis in policy or reality" then any attempt on my part to remove somebody from the list on the basis that their inclusion violates WP:EGRS will fail. I'd almost be tempted to try Aumann as a test case if I wasn't convinced that this list will have to be deleted anyway, as the case for it breaching policy is so strong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Andy, you may want to work on your reading comprehension. Or your logic skills. Or some combination thereof. Of course lists have to follow BLP. But you seem to be trying to argue that that somehow that means that any LISTPEOPLE issue is a BLP issue. That's not what the quoted sentence says. As to the Aumann thing, it is actually in his article if you read it. A major reason his opinion on the so-called Bible codes is that he's a religious Jew who had a Nobel prize in math related issues and thus people care about his opinion. And of course Aumann's specific situation doesn't impact whether others should be on the list. The reason why Aumann is relevant is because you claimed that such a list couldn't have any living people on it for BLP reasons. Aumann is simply one of the most interesting and blatant examples of how that claim has no basis in policy or reality. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment Researching other lists on Wikipedia to see if there is some consistency or clarity to this argument. We have the following which include prominent scientists and writers who may or may not have won a Nobel Prize. These are by ethnicity and religion, excluding Jewish. There are doubtless dozens more. What makes those lists acceptable but this list not acceptable? What we have here is a list of outstanding Jewish contributers in various fields, as defined by the Nobel Prize society. Americans and Germans have won a lot of Nobel Prizes as well, and perhaps someone would want to create an article for that. Some of the Jewish winners would be on those lists as well. This can't be a BLP issue as there are a number of lists below that are religious and/or ethnic in nature.
- List of Arab scientists and scholars
- List of Indian poets
- List of Arab Americans
- List of Iranian musicians
- List of Iranian women
- List of Chinese language poets
- List of Christian thinkers in science
- List of Latter Day Saints
- List of Catholic authors
- List of Christian Scientists
- List of Kurdish people
- list of famous or notable Germans
- List of Canadian writers
- List of bands from Canada
- list of prominent Egyptians
I just cannot see what all the fuss is about, about this particular article! The German article even has a list of German saints. Where is the list of Jewish saints? KantElope (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, the fuss isn't about this particular article. It is about this particular type of article: a synthetic intersection. I suspect there may well be examples of similarly-flawed lists amongst the examples you give, but in any case WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS has never been a valid argument. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Considering almost everything you listed is either a nationality or a religious group, I don't see your point. Bulldog123 21:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly. Nationality and ethnicity are not the same. There is a list of notable Israelis, and that's fine. (Notable as defined in Wiki, and Israeli as per the people's citizenship.) In any case, why are none of the "keep" editors refuting the policy issues stated? An AfD is not about the number of votes, but the quality of the arguments.--Therexbanner (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Exactly, not. Wikipedia's article on Jews defines them in the very first line as "The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים Yehudim [jɛhuːdiːm]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East." If you disagree with that assumption, you should work on changing the Wikipedia definition first. The articles above are about nations, religions, ethnicities, that are found throughout the globe, just like Jews. (with the exception of the Arab-American article, by definition only those Arabs found in America) KantElope (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)- I said nationality, not nation. From Nationality:"Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state." I was referring to the citizenship aspect. As in, List of Italians being people who are notable and have/had Italian citizenship. This is because there is no discussion (you're either an Italian citizen or you're not, you can't be half.) That is why religious, and ethnic lists need to go.
- Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.--Therexbanner (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly. Nationality and ethnicity are not the same. There is a list of notable Israelis, and that's fine. (Notable as defined in Wiki, and Israeli as per the people's citizenship.) In any case, why are none of the "keep" editors refuting the policy issues stated? An AfD is not about the number of votes, but the quality of the arguments.--Therexbanner (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete - WP:EGRS is pretty clear on the matter, not a notable intersection. Tarc (talk) 00:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- delete per Richard Feynman and other wise men.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per many above. In my view, it would be no different than adding a column to List of Nobel laureates that defines ethnicity/religion. I doubt anyone would argue that such a column would not be appropriate. Ergo, this fork is equally not appropriate. Resolute 01:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete all and any of these kinds of lists, be they religion, ethnicity, age, or whatnot. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question: If this list is kept, should #Feynman be included in it or not? Currently he is [10]. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- This is really a premature question. It should be asked after DR is closed, and if the article is kept.--Mbz1 (talk) 03:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well, of course Feynman is on the list. Are you imagining that if this list is kept, the same editors will not continue to watch it and to control the rules of consensus on its talk page? Editors whose attitude is that Feynman "is in denial" or that anybody who has been described as "Jewish" belongs on the list but that this rule of the list need never be made public in the lede? Editors who regard it as "troubling" that anybody objects to the list's changing its rules to absorb a new laureate who says he's 1/8 Jewish and has a name that sounds Jewish? Editors who consider the article exempt from WP:BLPCAT, WP:EGRS, and WP:LISTPEOPLE? Why on earth would they care what Feynman thinks? betsythedevine (talk) 03:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- There may be a real problem with the list inclusion and there may be people acting based on biases but the Feynman letter is making a much more narrow comment than it is being used for here. He's objecting to being on a specific list being used for a specific end at a specific time. Not the issue here. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- So Feynman's lengthy criticism of a list of Jewish Nobel laureates is no reason to think he might object to this list? Another great sample of this kind of reasoning: If Geim tells an Israeli interviewer that he has one Jewish great-grandmother, that is no reason to think he is ethnically 1/8 Jewish--he did not specifically state that his other 7 great-grandparents weren't Jewish and besides, if his mother's mother is Jewish then so is she, and if his mother is Jewish then so is he. betsythedevine (talk) 05:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- There may be a real problem with the list inclusion and there may be people acting based on biases but the Feynman letter is making a much more narrow comment than it is being used for here. He's objecting to being on a specific list being used for a specific end at a specific time. Not the issue here. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well, of course Feynman is on the list. Are you imagining that if this list is kept, the same editors will not continue to watch it and to control the rules of consensus on its talk page? Editors whose attitude is that Feynman "is in denial" or that anybody who has been described as "Jewish" belongs on the list but that this rule of the list need never be made public in the lede? Editors who regard it as "troubling" that anybody objects to the list's changing its rules to absorb a new laureate who says he's 1/8 Jewish and has a name that sounds Jewish? Editors who consider the article exempt from WP:BLPCAT, WP:EGRS, and WP:LISTPEOPLE? Why on earth would they care what Feynman thinks? betsythedevine (talk) 03:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, this is a problem, because per WP:LSC one should come up with a criteria beforehand. The criteria here seem to be inclusion in "Jewish Nobel Prize Winners", The Shengold Jewish Encyclopedia, Schreiber Publishing, because it's by far the most widely used source. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- The list had explicit inclusion criteria that appeared to have consensus until they were removed in this edit a month ago. Further discussions about this on the talk page did not reach consensus. --Avenue (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
OTHERCRAPEXISTS comment:
- List of Christian thinkers in science (no AfD yet)
- multiple (citizenship-based?) sub-lists of List of Jewish scientists and philosophers like List of British Jewish scientists (none at AfD yet), but Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (3rd nomination) resulted in delete
- List of Jewish American entertainers (at AfD)
Apparently being a Jewish entertainer is horrible, but being a Jewish or Chirsitian scientist is okay, unless you're a Nobel laureate or FRS. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, there is a great deal of evidence that in regard to lists, Wikipedia policy and guidelines are being inconsistently applied. Frankly, it's a mess, which can lead to some real horrors going unnoticed. This is no reason to carry on with inconsistency though, and this article is more visible than the horrors. We're here, and we need to start somewhere. I suspect that this is becoming something of a test case (not that in theory Wikipedia has such things), and will help sort out the criteria for getting the mess fixed - as I've said before, that is why this matters to me. If the result of all this is that it is decided that 'a list of anyone we feel like making a list of' can include 'anyone who might vaguely fit in', then at least we've arrived at a policy. I'd prefer lists of people to be based on criteria not arrived at via a particular POV, or at the whim of the list compiler. I think that Feynman was saying the same thing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Some of the books in the "Further reading" section lead me to believe that the notability guideline is met for an article on the subject. The ratio of Jewish winners has been discussed often enough. The lead here is a fine base and if the list is too long for the available prose then it should be a list with Jewish Nobel laureates as its blue link.Cptnono (talk) 05:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced a separate article is needed as you suggest, but the current coverage of the topic at Ashkenazi intelligence could probably be expanded. That doesn't affect the existence of this list though. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete as a violation of policies and guidelines as others have noted above. It's past time to do something about such lists and categories. I do like the point about the obvious problem if we added a column on religion to our main list. Oh, and per Feynman. Dougweller (talk) 11:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Except that "Jewish" is an ethno-religious category; it's more like adding columns on Ethnicity and Religion. Incidentally, Evolution of Nobel Prizes by country and List of Nobel laureates in Physics by age are interesting articles to compare. Note that Lists of Nobel laureates tend to only have "Country", which isn't even defined as birthplace or nationality - it's simply taken from what the Nobel Foundation says; and of course age is from the Nobel site as well. Rd232 talk 13:26, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, in this case even adding single columns on ethnicity and religion wouldn't work with the criteria used here. There would have to be several columns, for the ethnicity of parents, grandparents etc, since people are being included on the basis that they are 'part Jewish'. Actually, I suspect if you went far enough back you'd be able to find a Jewish ancestor for a lot more Nobel Prize winners. Perhaps all Nobel laureates should be included unless WP:RS could be found to demonstrate that none of their particular ancestors were in fact of Jewish ethnicity? This would seem to be in accord with the current criteria. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- That seems to be Wikipedia's guideline as of lately. "Jewish" until proven otherwise. And even if numerous foreign sources and family members state he was of a different ethnicity all together, still Jewish because some sources seems to have jumped to conclusions too quickly. Bulldog123 16:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, in this case even adding single columns on ethnicity and religion wouldn't work with the criteria used here. There would have to be several columns, for the ethnicity of parents, grandparents etc, since people are being included on the basis that they are 'part Jewish'. Actually, I suspect if you went far enough back you'd be able to find a Jewish ancestor for a lot more Nobel Prize winners. Perhaps all Nobel laureates should be included unless WP:RS could be found to demonstrate that none of their particular ancestors were in fact of Jewish ethnicity? This would seem to be in accord with the current criteria. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Except that "Jewish" is an ethno-religious category; it's more like adding columns on Ethnicity and Religion. Incidentally, Evolution of Nobel Prizes by country and List of Nobel laureates in Physics by age are interesting articles to compare. Note that Lists of Nobel laureates tend to only have "Country", which isn't even defined as birthplace or nationality - it's simply taken from what the Nobel Foundation says; and of course age is from the Nobel site as well. Rd232 talk 13:26, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep. The topic is clearly notable; there are some nontrivial categorization issues, but they are solvable. Nsk92 (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Strong keep A notable subject, well written list and per user:JoshuaZ. Broccoli (talk) 18:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment on notability rules from WP:SPIP: " The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the topic itself (or of its manufacturer, creator, author, inventor, or vendor) have actually considered the topic notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works of their own that focus upon it – without incentive, promotion, or other influence by people connected to the topic matter." If one sets aside works whose focus is to celebrate Jewish achievement, and books that simply list some Jewish laureates, you find little discussion of the topic aside from the thoughtful comments of Harriet Zuckerman. I'd like to see better support of notability in some of the Keep !votes this AfD is getting. betsythedevine (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- "...the thoughtful comments of Harriet Zuckerman". Indeed. I'd suggest that anyone supporting the retention of this list should first read Zuckerman, and then perhaps reconsider their position. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to see more discussion of how a prose article on the topic fits in. Much of the claims to notability and topic coverage suggest that, and not a list. This also neatly avoids the problem of trying to characterise every Nobel laureate according to their Jewishness. A prose article would only cover laureates where reliable sources have discussed their Jewishness specifically in relation to the Prize (not merely mentioning X is Jewish and won a prize). Rd232 talk 20:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I hope that you, Rd232, do understand that after you wrongly speedy deleted the article last night, and after you prevented me closing the post at an/i, which I consider to be trolling, and now after that comment you should not be the one to close that DR, don't you?--Mbz1 (talk) 21:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- ? what is this "DR" you keep talking about? I can't stop you thinking that The Moon is made of green cheese or that action X is "trolling" (a misuse of the term, but I get the gist), but I can't help pointing out that constantly repeating the claim looks like, well, actual trolling. As to your substantive point, I don't normally close AFDs and wouldn't dream of closing as contentious a one as this, absent a Speedy Delete G4. Besides which I've now participated in the AFD - what sort of admin do you think I am? (Wait, don't answer that.) Rd232 talk 21:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I hope that you, Rd232, do understand that after you wrongly speedy deleted the article last night, and after you prevented me closing the post at an/i, which I consider to be trolling, and now after that comment you should not be the one to close that DR, don't you?--Mbz1 (talk) 21:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to see more discussion of how a prose article on the topic fits in. Much of the claims to notability and topic coverage suggest that, and not a list. This also neatly avoids the problem of trying to characterise every Nobel laureate according to their Jewishness. A prose article would only cover laureates where reliable sources have discussed their Jewishness specifically in relation to the Prize (not merely mentioning X is Jewish and won a prize). Rd232 talk 20:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Categorise: I think this sort of intersection is more suited for categories: lists should be used for where a characteristic is essential to the understanding to its members (so Russell T Davies should be on a list of LGBT screenwriters, but Phil Collinson shouldn't be on a list of LGBT producers, despite the fact they're both gay). With categories, there's a bit more leniency, so Collinson could be in a category of gay actors (and he is). Also, there are ethical concerns due to the fact that the Jewish identity is more complicated than other ethnicities or religions. For example, Feynman was Jewish by matrilineal descent, but did not consider himself to be a Jew (and asked to be removed from a compilation of Jewish Nobel laureates), and vice-versa, other people (I personally know one) are quite comfortable being Jewish and atheist. Same for Geim, who is ethnically Jewish, but we use seven citations in this list, indicating that the "fact" of his Jewishness is not as concrete as first thought. As Geim is alive (and the most recent Physics laureate), this is a BLP problem too. However, I think the section about Jews being forced to decline should be woven into the Nobel Prize article. Sceptre (talk) 01:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Those seven "citations" included one non-link, whose contents nobody can check, and three articles that did not say Geim was Jewish. I whittled that list down to 3 items, due to misunderstandings like this one that those 7 "references" were 7 independent bits of evidence Geim is Jewish. Nor are the remaining 3 at all impressive as "evidence." I also do not think Wikipedia should support the claim that Geim is "ethnically" Jewish because his mother is one-half or one-quarter Jewish. The matrilineal-Jewish-determination theory is a religious theory that has nothing to do with the modern understanding of genetics and ethnicity. betsythedevine (talk) 03:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary break 2
I'd like to see more discussion of how a prose article on the topic fits in. Much of the claims to notability and topic coverage suggest that, and not a list. This also neatly avoids the problem of trying to characterise every Nobel laureate according to their Jewishness. A prose article would only cover laureates where reliable sources have discussed their Jewishness specifically in relation to the Prize (not merely mentioning X is Jewish and won a prize). Rd232 talk 21:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- As I've just commented elsewhere, I think that perhaps what is needed is a single general article discussing the relationship between ethnicity and the award of Nobel laureates. This will need proper WP:RS of course to justify (e.g. the topic being discussed elsewhere in a meaningful way), but might overcome most of the difficulties with categorisation. As to whether additional articles are merited for individual 'ethnicities', I think each case would need considering on its own merits. Regarding the Jewish example, I'd say that Harriet Zuckerman's treatment of the question, taken with the opposing viewpoint, would provide sufficient justification for an article, subject to it not then being used to in turn recreate a list based on dubious criteria and a 'flexible' approach to BLP considerations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I still believe this is the best option. There are sources that can be used in the further reading section. The list can be removed while the lead is turned into a stub. One thing to keep in mind is that the list could be recreated since we would have a valid blue linked article.Cptnono (talk) 22:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Good luck maintaining an article with absolutely nothing to say. Bulldog123 23:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Please see the further reading section. Thanks.Cptnono (talk) 23:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Have you actually bothered to even skim any of those sources? Because I have. Bulldog123 01:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Like this one.[11] It is brought up often enough and we even already have a source that is apparent from simply skimming the title of the chapter. And anything for dummies is alwas fun to point to on Wikipedia, IMO.[12]Cptnono (talk) 01:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- So you've read both and you see that both readings (especially the latter) consist of utterly contentless self-aggrandizing coffee table book vanity that would never hold up in serious academia. Patai spends the entire section number-crunching all kinds of Jewish statistics, providing literally nothing but charts and percentage signs and has this weirdly starry-eyed (and very much opinionated) tone about it all. I especially love how Comparative Religion for Dummies is written for children and maintains this creepily dogmatic tone with baseless and sourceless remarks like "The three greatest men thinkers who had the greatest impact worldwide in the last 150 years were all Jewish." Bulldog123 01:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Hey now, I just skimmed them as well. But it is obvious from those and other sources available that it is a notable er... phenomena(?). The two provided I feel meet RWP:RELIABLE. One of them is from an academic publisher even. But if you want more sources I would be happy to start seeing what is all out there if turning this into an article is actually something editors are willing to consider.Cptnono (talk) 01:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- If anybody wants to try to write an article on it, be my guest. Bulldog123 01:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Please see the further reading section. Thanks.Cptnono (talk) 23:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- "the list could be recreated". Nope. The list as it stands violates policy (and common sense). AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Read the standards for lists since it is spelled out clearly enough. I'm not saying it should happen just that it would be inline with the guideline if someone wanted to do it.Cptnono (talk) 23:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump, you clearly aren't concerned about policy here, since you've adamantly avoided commenting on the actually non-policy compliant Jewish list AfDs: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors, and List of Jewish American cartoonists. Jayjg (talk) 00:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- And off with the insinuations we go again... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't insinuated anything. Do you claim your concern here is policy violation? Yes. Have you !voted on other current AfDs for actual policy-violating Jewish lists? No. Therefore, your concern cannot be what you claim it to be. Jayjg (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I see you've stopped insinuating and instead resorted to making direct personal attacks now. Fortunately, the flaw in your logic is so obvious that I doubt anyone will take you seriously. I suggest you look the word 'therefore' up in a dictionary. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- To Jayjg. The mere fact that you make these comments here, shows that your main goal for those AfDs was to criticize users that oppose your views. That shows you are not really concerned with the issues those articles have, and are using AfDs to prove a point. I suggest you refrain from that activity.--Therexbanner (talk) 00:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Therexbanner, my main goal for these AfDs is to ensure that we address a systemic problem, as I made quite clear in my "Comment" of 18:22, 26 November 2010 above. I've been trying to deal with these non-notable, BLP/NOR/V violating lists and categories for over five years now, with little or no assistance, and often a great deal of active opposition. So what happens here? Two or three editors get bees in their bonnets because Andre Geim is added to the List of Jewish Nobel laureates, and other editors object to his being removed, so they try to get the whole list deleted. But what are they doing about the hundreds of other Jew lists and categories on Wikipedia? Well, even when there are currently four other on-going AfDs for other Jew lists, they deliberately choose not to get involved. I care about policy; I've been trying to deal with this issue for over five years. On the other hand, they only care about the fact that the don't want Andre Geim to be on this list, and all the fancy words in the world can't disguise that. Jayjg (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, your "two or three editors get bees in their bonnets" comment makes it seem like those who object to Andre Geim's inclusion are in the minority... even though that's completely false. Bulldog123 01:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're right that more than two or three editors don't want Geim on the list, but it's really those two or three vocal ones who pushed this AfD, are all over it, and really just care about ensuring that Geim is not listed as a Jewish Nobel laureate, nothing more. I exclude you from that, of course, you've been concerned about the broader issue for years, and I recognize that. But it's really outrageous to hear them complain that my motivation has anything to do with this—frankly minor—issue of whether or not Geim is listed as Jewish or not. Here's what I said, for example, in November 28 2005, five years ago to the day, one of many similar comments before and since. I'm saying the exact same thing today. My position has been consistent, and my actions have been broad. I'm not here just to get one name on or off one list. Jayjg (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Jayjg stop and think about what you are saying. Read what I've actually written about why I'm involved with this thread. Check my Wikipedia contributions if you like. Then come back and explain how you can tell what my motivations are, based on the fact that I choose not to be ordered around by people who seem to think that not participating in debates five years ago is something to hold against someone who has only been contributing to Wikipedia for a few months? You are making a fool of yourself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors, and List of Jewish American cartoonists, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish heavy metal musicians are all happening right now, not five years ago. Want to prove that for you it's not all about whether or not Geim is listed as a Jew? Then put your money where your mouth is. Jayjg (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump, I have looked at your contributions. It is one sad sight.Please stop screaming at other editors, who BTW do make real contributions. --Mbz1 (talk) 01:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- That's right. Zilch. Nought. Nothing. Nada. No new articles. I prefer to wait until I can actually contribute something useful, though if you like I'll make a list of notable One-legged Rastafarian Slalom Skiers. Personally, I think my time is better spent sorting out the mess that others create, at least until I've got proper references etc. In case you didn't notice, Jayjg was suggesting I had an agenda: I suggested he looked at my editing history to see if he could find it. I'm sure you could find one, but not the one he thinks is there. I was going to offer to actually take a look at the AfDs Jayjg suggested, but now I'm having to deal with a tag-team, I'm not sure this would be wise. Now how about getting back on topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs)
- Indeed. When there is swill created such as this, someone needs to be around to make sure that it is taken care of. Tarc (talk) 02:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- In addition to over 100 Featured Pictures, Mbz1 has three articles on the Wikipedia:DYKSTATS#All-time DYK page view leaders. Who else here can make similarly impressive claims? Jayjg (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and here's her latest DYK: King Philip shipwreck. 8,200 views, pretty impressive. Jayjg (talk) 03:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. When there is swill created such as this, someone needs to be around to make sure that it is taken care of. Tarc (talk) 02:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- That's right. Zilch. Nought. Nothing. Nada. No new articles. I prefer to wait until I can actually contribute something useful, though if you like I'll make a list of notable One-legged Rastafarian Slalom Skiers. Personally, I think my time is better spent sorting out the mess that others create, at least until I've got proper references etc. In case you didn't notice, Jayjg was suggesting I had an agenda: I suggested he looked at my editing history to see if he could find it. I'm sure you could find one, but not the one he thinks is there. I was going to offer to actually take a look at the AfDs Jayjg suggested, but now I'm having to deal with a tag-team, I'm not sure this would be wise. Now how about getting back on topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs)
- AndyTheGrump, I have looked at your contributions. It is one sad sight.Please stop screaming at other editors, who BTW do make real contributions. --Mbz1 (talk) 01:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors, and List of Jewish American cartoonists, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish heavy metal musicians are all happening right now, not five years ago. Want to prove that for you it's not all about whether or not Geim is listed as a Jew? Then put your money where your mouth is. Jayjg (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, your "two or three editors get bees in their bonnets" comment makes it seem like those who object to Andre Geim's inclusion are in the minority... even though that's completely false. Bulldog123 01:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Therexbanner, my main goal for these AfDs is to ensure that we address a systemic problem, as I made quite clear in my "Comment" of 18:22, 26 November 2010 above. I've been trying to deal with these non-notable, BLP/NOR/V violating lists and categories for over five years now, with little or no assistance, and often a great deal of active opposition. So what happens here? Two or three editors get bees in their bonnets because Andre Geim is added to the List of Jewish Nobel laureates, and other editors object to his being removed, so they try to get the whole list deleted. But what are they doing about the hundreds of other Jew lists and categories on Wikipedia? Well, even when there are currently four other on-going AfDs for other Jew lists, they deliberately choose not to get involved. I care about policy; I've been trying to deal with this issue for over five years. On the other hand, they only care about the fact that the don't want Andre Geim to be on this list, and all the fancy words in the world can't disguise that. Jayjg (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't insinuated anything. Do you claim your concern here is policy violation? Yes. Have you !voted on other current AfDs for actual policy-violating Jewish lists? No. Therefore, your concern cannot be what you claim it to be. Jayjg (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- And off with the insinuations we go again... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Didn't you know, Jay, tarc could make more impressive claims. Not only he called me out on wikipedia review, but he also called me out on his own talk page. Of course he shot up last night, when I asked him what else besides "calling people out" he's done on wikipedia. Sadly one day most content contributors will quit because they will get tired of tarcs--Mbz1 (talk) 03:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Is there some reason I'm missing that nobody is slapping you with a WP:NPA link yet? Bulldog123 03:20, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Can we get back on track or do we need another subsection. An alternate proposal to deletion has been raised. I believe that there are sources available to create an actual article that meets notability requirements. In this list alone, the following sources look promising if someone wants to try it: [13][14][15][16][17][18].Cptnono (talk) 02:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- An article needs to meet NPOV requirements too: don't forget Harriet Zuckerman's "Scientific Elite: Nobel Laureates in the United States" (cited in the article 'Further reading' section). And please don't try to convince yourselves that the existence of an article on a subject automatically justifies the creation of a complete list of everything you think is covered by the article. It doesn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Like I said, do your best, and see how far you get. Off topic, but... am I the only one that noticed Willem Einthoven is incorrectly listed as Jewish here? Bulldog123 03:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, but does he fail the 'Jewish until proven otherwise' test? Back on topic, have any of the 'keep' faction actually read Zuckerman? I'd take them more seriously if they did. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Does that have any bearing on the proposal by Rd232?Cptnono (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Does Zuckerman have any bearing on an article on the relationship between Jewish ethnicity and the Nobel Prize? Er, yes... AndyTheGrump (talk)
- Does that have any bearing on the proposal by Rd232?Cptnono (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, but does he fail the 'Jewish until proven otherwise' test? Back on topic, have any of the 'keep' faction actually read Zuckerman? I'd take them more seriously if they did. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- The topic at hand is the deletion (or not) of this list. I don't think deleting this list would require or rule out creating an article on the topic, or adding a section to Ashkenazi intelligence that would cite any research done on the topic. Most of the writing about Jewish Nobel laureates basically points out the statistical anomaly and offers untestable hypothetical explanations based on Jewish history, Jewish culture, or evolutionary genetics to explain it. And I await with interest any scientific or other work on achievement by people who are "Jewish" because some magazine writer called them Jewish, which is the criterion for inclusion in the current list. My guess is that their achievement will be even higher than those of people with much more significant Jewish heritage, because only the top achievers will be sought out with such avidity for inclusion. betsythedevine (talk) 04:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- You are right, the list is the deletion discussion. So if someone wants to create the page then I would vote "merge" for it. And the source provided show notability regardless of the reasoning.Cptnono (talk) 04:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, only problem is, there are like 6 or 7 Sephardic Nobel Prize winners. Bulldog123 06:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- The topic at hand is the deletion (or not) of this list. I don't think deleting this list would require or rule out creating an article on the topic, or adding a section to Ashkenazi intelligence that would cite any research done on the topic. Most of the writing about Jewish Nobel laureates basically points out the statistical anomaly and offers untestable hypothetical explanations based on Jewish history, Jewish culture, or evolutionary genetics to explain it. And I await with interest any scientific or other work on achievement by people who are "Jewish" because some magazine writer called them Jewish, which is the criterion for inclusion in the current list. My guess is that their achievement will be even higher than those of people with much more significant Jewish heritage, because only the top achievers will be sought out with such avidity for inclusion. betsythedevine (talk) 04:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary break 3
My final comment. I've been trying to deal with this problem for over 5 years now. There are dozens of Jewish lists (and hundreds of other similar ethnicity-based ones), and they're simply not covered by WP:EGRS or WP:BLPCAT. Believe me, I know this from not just the plain meaning and wording of the policies/guidelines, but from many, many AfDs. There is a much bigger issue here than just this one list. There are four similar AfDs going on right now, with much less attention and interest, and very little in policy to cover them. Please try to deal with the systemic issues here. I've said my piece more than enough times, and I don't plan to comment here again. Jayjg (talk) 03:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- All of which may well be true. I feel the same way about "systemic issues" too, but don't see 'Jewishness' as being a locus. The problem is more about categorisation of people in general. The answer is quite simple: stop doing it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Having read so much speculation here about people's hypothetically unworthy motives for wanting to delete this list, with list-proponents delving into and critiquing other people's contribution histories, I followed a link from this page to an AfD of a different article, now deleted, authored as this one was by Mbz1. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Richard_Wagner's_first_love got "Keep" !votes from its author Mbz1, and also from Jayjg, Brewcrewer, Epeefleche, and Shuki. In fact, those were the article's only Keep !Votes. And here on this discussion, you can also see Mbz1, Jayjg, Brewcrewer, Epeefleche, and Shuki leading the fight against this list's deletion. betsythedevine (talk) 05:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Possibly true. Possibly hilarious. But not actually relevant Betsy (can I call you Betsy?). Since as far as I'm aware Richard_Wagner wasn't Jewish(!) and never won a Nobel Prize, this is once again off-topic. If indeed there actually is a topic here any more... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, [19]. [sarcasm] You see... there is no such thing as a successful person who works with Jews but who himself isn't Jewish in some form. There's also no such thing as an anti-semite who isn't secretly Jewish too. Or so that seems to be the crux of most arguments on wikipedia for the last four years. Especially on Adolf Hitler, Richard Wagner, Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin, Alexander Kerensky, etc... [/sarcasm] Bulldog123 05:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Why would Betsy make such a gross misstatement about me, I wonder?--Epeefleche (talk) 05:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- What gross misstatement? Bulldog123 05:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, was this not your !Vote concerning Mbz1's article based on an article from a turn of the century Jewish family magazine about Richard Wagner's Jewish girlfriend when he was 13 years old: "Keep. Notable topic, as evidenced by RS coverage.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)" betsythedevine (talk) 05:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- It can't really be that hard to find, can it? I mean, Betsy only made two statements about me in toto. One was a gross misstatement. I can't for the life of me imagine why she made it, and why Bulldog can't see it either. The depths to which this discussion has sunken, with editors making wholly unfounded loud accusations about others as Betsy about me, and others -- as Bulldog -- turning Nelson's eye towards them, are disturbing. I'm not sure what is driving this lack of care in accusations and the like. But would urge editors, when making inflammatory accusations about others, to hue somewhat more closely to the facts.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Epeefleche, my memory misled me. You have been an active debater on Andre Geim and List of Jewish Nobel laureates but my memory misled me when I stated that you had been active in this debate. I apologize for that error and I will redact your name from that part of the list. betsythedevine (talk) 05:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- First, what? Secondly, why have you not given your two cents in this Afd yet? Are you going to act now (for the first time in years) that Jewish AfDs do not concern you? I want to hear your rational explanation for continually maneuvering this list onto Geim's See Also section. Bulldog123 05:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- @Betsy--Thank you. @Bull--I find your entry to be largely incomprehensible. The part that I do find comprehensible appears to be irrelevant.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- It can't really be that hard to find, can it? I mean, Betsy only made two statements about me in toto. One was a gross misstatement. I can't for the life of me imagine why she made it, and why Bulldog can't see it either. The depths to which this discussion has sunken, with editors making wholly unfounded loud accusations about others as Betsy about me, and others -- as Bulldog -- turning Nelson's eye towards them, are disturbing. I'm not sure what is driving this lack of care in accusations and the like. But would urge editors, when making inflammatory accusations about others, to hue somewhat more closely to the facts.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, was this not your !Vote concerning Mbz1's article based on an article from a turn of the century Jewish family magazine about Richard Wagner's Jewish girlfriend when he was 13 years old: "Keep. Notable topic, as evidenced by RS coverage.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)" betsythedevine (talk) 05:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- What gross misstatement? Bulldog123 05:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Why would Betsy make such a gross misstatement about me, I wonder?--Epeefleche (talk) 05:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, [19]. [sarcasm] You see... there is no such thing as a successful person who works with Jews but who himself isn't Jewish in some form. There's also no such thing as an anti-semite who isn't secretly Jewish too. Or so that seems to be the crux of most arguments on wikipedia for the last four years. Especially on Adolf Hitler, Richard Wagner, Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin, Alexander Kerensky, etc... [/sarcasm] Bulldog123 05:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Seriously folks, are there any rational(ish) arguments left now, or has sanity left the building? I'm tempted to suggest that all remotely on-topic arguments have been made, and those responsible must inspect the entrails of this AfD, and then tell us what the Gods are saying. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for responding in kind, however briefly, to the varied claims here about people's motivation. Really, the only topic under discussion here should be whether or not one particular Wikipedia article is deleted. betsythedevine (talk) 05:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, but hopefully Cptnono is on his way making a featured-list-ready article on Jewish Nobel Laureates using the equisite Comparative Religion for Dummies source. Bulldog123 06:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Why are you being snide? You have already wrecked this discussion pretty well. Haven't you made enough derailing comments already? You should probably knock it off unles you are trying to be disruptive. I actually started reading the Zuckerman source (one that was in the list I originally pointed to) and it looks alright.Cptnono (talk) 06:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Shows how serious you were about that article if you consider it "snide" that I expect you to actually make it with those ridiculous secondary sources you presented. Which is my point, really. Bulldog123 06:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Why are you being snide? You have already wrecked this discussion pretty well. Haven't you made enough derailing comments already? You should probably knock it off unles you are trying to be disruptive. I actually started reading the Zuckerman source (one that was in the list I originally pointed to) and it looks alright.Cptnono (talk) 06:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Can I make a suggestion here? If everyone just assumes the insinuations of prejudice have been sent, received, and responded to in kind, and just posts the afterthoughts of relevance, we might actually get somewhere. Not that it matters to me, even insomnia can only keep me awake for so long. G'night all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I thought you liked the Zuckerman source? Anyways, would you mind going to sleep if it is impacting your ability to use this page appropriately?Cptnono (talk) 06:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I've been through this exact same AfD twice before. I've searched the internet for legitimate encyclopedic information on it for hours and hours. Always came back empty-handed. I repeat that point over and over throughout this Afd, yet there's always someone who comes back with the same sources I've seen a million times and thinks they've done some great service. Sorry, it gives me migraines. So forgive me if I expect you to write the article now. Bulldog123 06:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I thought you liked the Zuckerman source? Anyways, would you mind going to sleep if it is impacting your ability to use this page appropriately?Cptnono (talk) 06:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question. Now that we veered off discussion, perhaps we can discuss this: Why has this list undergone now 4 afd's while other ethnic/religious lists are left alone?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Because this list is a magnet for WP:POV-pushing, because it's been recreated, despite having been deleted once already, and because its' original AfDs (the very first ones) were plagued by sockpuppet votes and canvassing. Bulldog123 07:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep: The nomination is based on flawed WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNOTEXIST arguments (no articles on lists of other faiths). I also don't see any reference to policy that you cannot have both a list article and a category. Yonideworst (talk) 09:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, but I would like to clarify something. The nomination is not based on OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. That is the argument used by several "keep" users who claim that since other lists (like the List of Germans) exist, so should this one. The list violates WP:EGRS (which deals with categorization, not wiki-categories, I hope you all know the difference) by categorizing (verb) people as members of an ethnoreligious group whose notable activities (mainly science) are not related to their ethnicity/religion. It also violates BLP, and is generally unencyclopedic (esp. vanity).--Therexbanner (talk) 10:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Additional points from policy directed specifically towards Lists:
- "When establishing membership criteria for a list, ask yourself:
- If this person/thing/etc., wasn't an X, would it reduce their fame or significance?"
- "Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X?" So let me ask you (example), if Albert Einstein wasn't Jewish, would that reduce his fame or significance? Is Albert Einstein a canonical example of some facet of Jewish people?
- What a silly question!--Mbz1 (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mbz1, what 'facet of Jewish people' is Einstein an example of specifically? He was Jewish (by self-attributed ethnicity: his religious beliefs are less easy to categorise). And he is clearly notable. But would he have been in any way less notable if he hadn't been Jewish? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- His Jewishness was notable in his persecution and escape from Germany in 1933, as it was for 14 other Nobel laureates. It was also notable in the fields of German Science in the 1930s and 40s which set out to discredit his findings because of his Jewishness. If he had not been Jewish he would still have been notable for the most significant finds of his life but work from 1930 onwards may have developed differently and led to greater or lower notability. The important thing is that his Jewishness changed his life and destiny from that period onwards. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- What a great response, Stuart! Jews are different people, and not because they are chosen people, but because their history is very special and unique. They have lived between different people, they have been persecuted and expelled, they have always fought for their very survival. All that history could be responsible for so many Jews being great scientists, writers, poets. If there were no Jewish diaspora maybe Jews would have been no different from all other people and maybe we would not have talked about Ashkenazi intelligence and overwhelming number of Jewish Nobel prize laureates.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- This is pretty close to original research. Moreover, the idea that Jews are somehow unique in their history is deeply problematic as an argument for making a list of this sort. It assumes one of the deeply controversial ideas that such lists are apparently often assembled to show. Incidentally, there are other historical groups which have been exiled and/or persecuted. Arguments of this sort should probably be avoided when discussing this list. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- What a great response, Stuart! Jews are different people, and not because they are chosen people, but because their history is very special and unique. They have lived between different people, they have been persecuted and expelled, they have always fought for their very survival. All that history could be responsible for so many Jews being great scientists, writers, poets. If there were no Jewish diaspora maybe Jews would have been no different from all other people and maybe we would not have talked about Ashkenazi intelligence and overwhelming number of Jewish Nobel prize laureates.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- His Jewishness was notable in his persecution and escape from Germany in 1933, as it was for 14 other Nobel laureates. It was also notable in the fields of German Science in the 1930s and 40s which set out to discredit his findings because of his Jewishness. If he had not been Jewish he would still have been notable for the most significant finds of his life but work from 1930 onwards may have developed differently and led to greater or lower notability. The important thing is that his Jewishness changed his life and destiny from that period onwards. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mbz1, what 'facet of Jewish people' is Einstein an example of specifically? He was Jewish (by self-attributed ethnicity: his religious beliefs are less easy to categorise). And he is clearly notable. But would he have been in any way less notable if he hadn't been Jewish? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- What a silly question!--Mbz1 (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists --Therexbanner (talk) 10:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep –
'Jews' are a people.Notability of topic is established by multiple independent reliable sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC) (Updated 04:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC))
- That doesn't make it a notable intersection. The list goes against policy whether or not Jews are an ethnic group and a religious group.Griswaldo (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- ...And amongst these people is Richard Feynman, who's own opinion on the matter of what being 'people' means is sadly being ignored. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete - per WP:EGRS and WP:NOTDIR. This and all similar lists should be deleted. I note that back in 2007 it was deleted, along with others focusing on other religious groups. The rest remain deleted but this one was recreated.Griswaldo (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep A notable characteristic that is used to group such individuals and is backed by reliable and verifiable sources. Alansohn (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:PROVEIT. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't even bother convincing Alansohn of anything. This user !votes "keep" on any list with the word "Jewish" in it (unless - perhaps - there's some negative connotation to it like "List of Jewish criminals"). Slap me with a WP:CIVIL if you like, but you have proven your motivations questionable pretty consistently over the history of these AfD debates. Bulldog123 05:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary break 4; Policies and guidelines
Let's review some of the policies and guidelines being cited. As list-supporters have pointed out above, a guideline is not a policy. Agreed -- one namespace template message defines a guideline as "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow though it is best treated with common sense and occasional exceptions may apply." The definition at the guidelines category: "Guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus and should generally be followed, though with occasional exceptions." Those who would disregard a guideline should make a clear case for why that guideline is not a best practice in this particular case.
- WP:BLPCAT is a part of the policy WP:BLP: "Categories, lists and navigation templates: Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources. Categories regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question; and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources." Many list enthusiasts have noted that the label "Jewish" need not imply Jewish religion -- it could refer instead to ethnicity, culture, or public self-identification. Others say that similar claims could be made for many other religious designations, and should not exempt them from the clear mandate described here.
- WP:LISTPEOPLE is part of the guideline WP:Stand-alone lists "Lists of people must follow Wikipedia's policy on biographical information about living people."
- WP:LIST (guideline): "The contents of an article that is a stand-alone list should be clear. If the title does not already clarify what the list includes, then the list's lead section should do so. Don't leave readers confused over the list's inclusion criteria or have editors guessing what may be added to the list... In lists that involve living persons, the Biographies of living persons policy applies." The selection rule for List of Jewish Nobel laureates can be found in the talk page but has been edit-warred out of the article lede for a month.
- WP:LSC is part of the guideline WP:Stand-alone lists: "Lists should begin with a lead section that summarizes any necessary background information, provides encyclopedic context, links to other relevant articles, and makes direct statements about the criteria by which members of the list were selected. This section, not the page's name, defines the subject of the list. Ideally, the selection criteria will be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources." Again, the inclusion criterion for List of Jewish Nobel laureates which was summarily changed after Geim's October win, is that some WP:RS has called the person Jewish. But an explanation of that selection criterion was edit-warred out of the lede, and no public explanation of what list membership means is in the article lede.
WP:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality: "Inclusion must be specifically relevant to at least one of the subject's notable activities and an essential part of that activity, but is not required to be an exclusive interest." This is a guideline for inclusion in categories. Why this clear statement should not apply also to a list based on ethnicity ... etc. is far from clear.
WP:OC#CATGRS: "Likewise, people should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career." This is a guideline for inclusion in categories. Why this clear statement should not apply also to a list based on ethnicity ... etc. is far from clear.
The primary claim of those who would keep the list seems to be the guideline WP:Notability. I am not aware of any published research or other interest in the number of Nobel Prize winners who meet the only requirement for being put on this list -- having been described as Jewish, quite independent of the person's degree of religious belief, ethnic/genetic heritage, cultural experience, self-identification or any other criterion. betsythedevine (talk) 16:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- How do category based standards apply here?Cptnono (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- It seems to me a better question would be, why should this particular list be exempt from category standards? Are not all members of this list being categorized here as unmodified-ly Jewish, without any disclaimer or modifier? Have not links to this list been used to "tag" member pages with "See also: List of Jewish Nobel laureates", putting forward a public claim just as does a category? Whatever the reasoning behind the efforts Wikipedia makes to honor the wishes and protect the privacy of people being categorized according to ethnicity or religion, why should our concern be less for people being listed by ethnicity or religion? betsythedevine (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- "How do category based standards apply here?" See WP:BLPCAT, which explicitly states they do. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Because lists have some prose which can clarify potentially contentious material with sources while this is severely limited in categories (cat page can have clarification but the bottom of articles do not).Cptnono (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I did not realize that one policy did. That is stupid but it is in there so I can't argue against it.Cptnono (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is very unclear to me how far WP:BLPCAT does apply here. It does not apply to most lists, and only extends to lists that "are based on religious beliefs and sexual orientation, or which suggest that the persons included in the list or template have a poor reputation." Discussions on the policy talk page that might clarify things do not seem to be reaching a consensus. --Avenue (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to me to be a strong consensus developing there to include privacy rights for ethnicity in BLPCAT, and for lists as well: "These principles apply equally to infobox statements, and to lists and navigation templates that are based on ethnicity, religious beliefs and sexual orientation..." betsythedevine (talk) 01:16, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is very unclear to me how far WP:BLPCAT does apply here. It does not apply to most lists, and only extends to lists that "are based on religious beliefs and sexual orientation, or which suggest that the persons included in the list or template have a poor reputation." Discussions on the policy talk page that might clarify things do not seem to be reaching a consensus. --Avenue (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- "How do category based standards apply here?" See WP:BLPCAT, which explicitly states they do. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- It seems to me a better question would be, why should this particular list be exempt from category standards? Are not all members of this list being categorized here as unmodified-ly Jewish, without any disclaimer or modifier? Have not links to this list been used to "tag" member pages with "See also: List of Jewish Nobel laureates", putting forward a public claim just as does a category? Whatever the reasoning behind the efforts Wikipedia makes to honor the wishes and protect the privacy of people being categorized according to ethnicity or religion, why should our concern be less for people being listed by ethnicity or religion? betsythedevine (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Your quote from WP:LISTPEOPLE misses a very relevant point: that it specifically exempts nationality/ethnicity based lists from notability relevance requirements.
- Your characterisation of the current implicit inclusion criteria for the list is inaccurate, because the list does not include some people who have been described as Jewish but for which contradictory sources have been found: e.g. Pyotr Kapitsa. Call its removal edit-warring if you like. But please do not call people who disagree with you "list enthusiasts". I agree with you about the need for the list to describe its inclusion criteria. I also think that these should be reflect talk page consensus and that the list should follow the agreed criteria. --Avenue (talk) 22:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Because "Jewish" can refer to religion, it has to be treated so per WP:BLP, which says to err on the side of caution with respect to living people: "do no harm", "when in doubt", etc. As long as the article uses an unqualified "Jewish" in its title, it needs to abide by WP:BLPCAT. It could be renamed to "List of Nobel laureates of Jewish descent" to avoid this, or we could simply choose to abide by the spirit of BLP and only include self-identifying subjects. Yworo (talk) 22:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Inclusion criteria and "contradictory sources": The initial inclusion criterion for List of Jewish Nobel laureates was apparently Shengold's Jewish Encyclopedia's list of Jewish Nobel laureates. The lack of neutrality and reliability there is strongly suggested by the fact that it includes Pyotr Kapitsa, Joseph Murray, and E Donnall Thomas, none of them Jewish. But Shengold is still the only source cited for most list members. And good luck getting somebody off List of Jewish Nobel laureates once any source is been found to put them on it -- now you need some WP:RS to state that the person is not Jewish. Have you ever seen any WP:RS stating that a public figure is NOT Jewish? By that test the Pope himself must be Jewish. But that is the test a "contradictory source" must meet to get someone off the list.
Talk page consensus is great when a page has many independent people watching it. But the local talk page consensus at List of Jewish Nobel laureates is that Shengold is a fine and reliable source. The consensus is that the list does not need to describe its new inclusion criteria publicly. The consensus is that somebody whose maternal great-grandmother is his only Jewish ancestor therefore has a mother who is Jewish--and this makes the 1/8 Jewish person Jewish. I don't think any of these local consensus beliefs is making Wikipedia the most accurate and WP:NPOV encyclopedia it can be. betsythedevine (talk) 00:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- For several months Shengold was not the only source for most entries, so I think your "still the only source" comment is misleading. I agree the current situation is not good.
- There does not seem to be a consensus that the list should not state its inclusion criteria. You and I have both argued that it should, and I don't think that issue is resolved.
- If the "maternal great-grandmother" bit refers to Andre Geim, he has recently been removed from the list, so I think you are overstating the consensus there too. --Avenue (talk) 01:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Reply re Shengold as a source -- of 13 Nobel Laureates in literature, 11 cite Shengold only and 2 cite other references. Of the Chemistry laureates, a majority cite Shengold only, a few cite others sources, and 8 give no citation at all for the claim the person is Jewish. And so on. Shengold remains the only source for a majority of entries on the list, and no authority at all is cited for a significant number of list members.
- The removal of Andre Geim on November 28 by one of the advocates for deleting the list was indeed a welcome change. betsythedevine (talk) 11:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment So about 75% of all !keep votes here are of the argument "notable intersection covered in reliable secondary sources." You do all realize that's been discussed on here and shown to be false. Right? Bulldog123 05:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's 'shown to be false' when it's reflected in the text of community agreed policy documents, Bulldog123. Anything less than that is a temporary agreement of a non-exhaustive list of editors, and I'm not sure you even have that. Please don't misrepresent your policy argument as a policy statement. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry. I wasn't aware there wasn't a WP:WIKIPEDIADOESNOTALLOWLISTSOFJEWISHNOBELLAUREATES. You got me! Bulldog123 06:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't be snide, Bulldog123, it makes you sound like you have a personal investment in the discussion. The relevant policy is WP:SALAT, and in particular WP:LISTPEOPLE, which specifically provides that a list of Jewish Nobel Laureates would be allowable provided that all entries on the list are notable for being Jewish and for being Nobel Laureates. There's no lesser importance in a list of Jewish Nobel Laureates than there would be a in list of female heads of state or in a list of African-American Oscar winners. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Great then. So I expect you to !vote Delete given that argument, since very few people on this list are notable for being Jewish. Bulldog123 06:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- DustFormsWords you are comparing apples to oranges in a very problematic way here. The reason why female heads of state would be notable for being female is precisely because there have been so few of them. There are disproportionately more male heads of state now and historically. Do you think that male heads of state are notable for being male? According to many of the keep voters here there are disproportionately more Jewish Nobel laureates than any other ethnic group. Now tell me why that makes each them notable for being Jewish ... for being members of the most commonly represented ethnic group? I'm sure you didn't mean it this way but your argument is a slight to both women and African Americans who, despite large numbers, are often dis-proportionally underrepresented in positions of power and prestige.Griswaldo (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd have no problem with a list of male heads of state either; I'd think it would be a necessary result of having a list of female heads of state, to put both lists into proper context. The reason we have the list isn't to address disadvantage or prejudice. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - it fundamentally doesn't care about disadvantage or prejudice, except to the extent that it's possible to write an article about it. Wikipedia only cares that there is data, and the data can be sorted. Sorting by nationality, race, or religion is no worse or less important a way of sorting than by gender or by year. It's a non-trivial intersection because it's capable of producing a list of sufficient scope to be potentially useful as an aid to navigation and analysis. To Bulldog - AfD isn't for cleanup. If there's names on the list that don't belong they can be deleted, but clearly there are names that do belong, and therefore deletion isn't appropriate. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- I never said anything about the encyclopedia "caring" about disadvantage or prejudice. I said that what makes female heads of state notable, as opposed to male heads of state who are not de facto notable at all, is the fact that there are so few of them. Some male heads of state are notable, for other reasons, but not because they are male. All female heads of state are notable, because they are female. This notability is what Wikipeida "cares" about. Now the notability is itself entagled in the facts of disadvantage. My point was simply that you, in making your comparison, slight those groups that are disadvantaged. Get it? Your poor analogy is a slight, but I've said nothing about the encylopedia having a job that entails "addressing disadvantage or prejudice". Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 23:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Per WP:POLITICIAN all heads of state ARE inherently notable, being political office holders at a national level. It's also the case that all Nobel Laureates are notable per WP:ANYBIO ("the person has received a notable award"). Per WP:SALAT, such notable entries are capable of being sorted into lists via any intersection that allows for potential use as a navigational or analytical tool, provided the list is neither too long nor too short and has a clearly defined scope. I'm entirely unsure what part of that you disagree with, or say doesn't apply here. There are clearly scholars - and many scholars - of Judaism and the Jewish people, a significant portion of them being people who would claim the level of Jewish success in the sciences is itself notable, so there can be no question that this is a list of potential value even if you personally do not havea use for it. What's the problem here? - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:37, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep -- WRT the claim this article should be deleted as per the previous {{afd}} -- the previous {{afd}} claimed "The lists, with the exception of the atheist one, are either poorly sourced or completely unsourced..." Since this version is referenced the previous {{afd}} is inapplicable. Isaac Asimov, a writer I really admire, wrote extensively about prominent scientists, and often listed them by their nationality/ethnicity. It seems to me that when it is wikipedia contributors who compile lists that do not rely on WP:RS those lists are both listcruft and lapse from WP:SYNTH. But lists that are properly referenced, as this one is, and, apparently, the previously deleted version weren't, are entirely appropriate. As per User:DGG's comment, this is exactly the kind of thing where our readers would like to look for a neutrally written, properly referenced article, because they can't rely on other, less neutral sources. 173.206.18.118 (talk) 07:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
- Response to claim that article now is "properly sourced." Of the chemistry laureates listed as Jewish, most are sourced only from Shengold's Jewish Encyclopedia, a source that has aggressively tagged at least 3 non-Jewish laureates as Jewish but is still considered WP:RS by the list owners for all the rest of its claims until somebody goes to the trouble of digging up counterproof. I do not think that Wikidpedia should endorse the claimes of such a partial and prejudiced source.
- Eight chemistry laureates have no source at all made for the claim. Living person Jerome Karle is one of these, you can read his Nobel autobiography to see if he mentions being Jewish .. he doesn't. But Wikipedia has tagged him as Jewish not only on List of Jewish Nobel laureates but also in categorizing him as a Jewish scientist. In the lede of his Wikipedia bio, he is described as a "Jewish physical chemist." In the previous AfD, complaints about sourcing included a reminder that Wikipedia should not be used as a source.
- There was also a claim during that AfD that very conservative principles were used in selecting names for the list. On Feb. 27, Mbz1 uses Jelinek as examples of a name that is NOT on the list because it has such a conservative policy on adding names. On March 7 the AfD is closed as "Keep" and on March 8 Mbz1 adds Jelinek to the list;it is only two days later that Avenue adds a source for that claim.
- On October 22, the list criterion "Jews are defined here as people who have at least half Jewish ancestry" was blanked by an edit whose explicit purpose was to make 1/8 Jewish-ancestry-not-self-defined-as-Jewish Andre Geim eligible for inclusion.
- Others have complained that some Delete votes come from people who care only about Geim being on the list. In my opinion, Geim's inclusion there is not the main problem; it is a symptom of a systemic POV problem. There are many websites where patriotic groups of whatever kind can trumpet their own achievements and stretch the list of group high-achievers by whatever criterion makes the list longest. Wikipedia should not be lending its authority to endorse the reliability of Shengold's Jewish Encyclopedia or How the Irish Saved Civilization or any other similar WP:POV project. betsythedevine (talk) 00:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Am I missing something here? If Shengold's Jewish Encyclopedia has already been been demonstrated to have "aggressively tagged at least 3 non-Jewish laureates as Jewish", then surely it cannot be a WP:RS by any reasonable definition, and at an absolute minimum, any listing done solely on the basis of this encyclopedia should be removed until a reliable source (in accord with WP:BLP policy regarding categorisation by ethnicity/religion) can be found to indicate the person is/was Jewish. This is assuming that a decision to keep this list at all is taken. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:10, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- People still think Encyclopedia Judaica as "reliable" even though it lists Ralph Benatzky (no Jewish ancestry whatsoever according to all biographers - he was mistakenly thought to be Jewish because his wife was) and Eugene Ionesco (approximately 1/8th Jewish according to his daughter - and even that is only "a guess"). The point Betsy made is flawless and eloquent. Something I've been trying to say for years but couldn't put it in the right words. People will continue to claim unreliable sources as reliable - even after numerous false entries - because it makes their ethnic pride lists a lot longer. People will also claim that Jews are a religion, ethnicity, and nationality (according to Epeefleche now) because it's an easy way to include as many people as possible without having to present evidence for why their Judaism has any bearing on their careers/lives. Bulldog123 01:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Am I missing something here? If Shengold's Jewish Encyclopedia has already been been demonstrated to have "aggressively tagged at least 3 non-Jewish laureates as Jewish", then surely it cannot be a WP:RS by any reasonable definition, and at an absolute minimum, any listing done solely on the basis of this encyclopedia should be removed until a reliable source (in accord with WP:BLP policy regarding categorisation by ethnicity/religion) can be found to indicate the person is/was Jewish. This is assuming that a decision to keep this list at all is taken. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:10, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Per many of the keeps, but DGG says it best, above, in his ultra-strong keep.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep. I strongly urge that this article be kept The disproportionate contibution of the Jewish people to mankind, as exemplified by the number of Jewish recipients of the Nobel Prize should not be ignored by Wikipedia, although I agree that the criteria for inclusion should be resolved, and/or a cited source added for each person listed indicating the basis for his inclusion in the list. JackJud (talk) 09:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- You (and other people using that argument) do realize that's discrimination? That's like making a list of Caucasian people's accomplishments, and then arguing at an AfD that there is overwhelming evidence of disproportionate contribution to society (there is), that says that Caucasian people are better (contribute to society way more than others) than others inherently.
- I don't care what sources you have for that argument, it is discrimination and racism towards other people, and basically supremacy (saying that Jews are better because they're Jews.) It has no place in an encyclopedia.--Therexbanner (talk) 10:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Considering the fact that the policy discussions were ignored (of course, since they don't have any arguments), this discussion has come down to: Notable because there are more Jews (who is a Jew?) winning the Nobel prize, and several Jewish magazines (based from their own descriptions) claim the same. I hope that whoever closes this looks at the issues raised (policies) versus the counter-arguments.--Therexbanner (talk) 10:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that JackJud seems to only emerge from hibernation when a Jewish-themed topic arrives on CfD or Afd. — JackJud (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Bulldog123 17:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep This list fully complies with WP:List and WP:SAL to include the question of notability. Any arguments to the contrary are disengenious. Additionally, arguments that a category is sufficient ignore WP:NOTDUP. Finally, the most ludicrious delete argument in this discussion: It [the list] serves no purpose assumes the voter speaks for millions of WP readers and 1000s of WP editors. That is arrogant and unproductive. This list, as DGG says above, is inherently encyclopedic. --Mike Cline (talk) 10:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Considering you absurdly called out my offhand comment instead of the dozens of more ludicrous arguments presented here, I'll respond: Sure it serves a purpose. It serves the purpose of boosting awareness of Jewish cultural achievements (even though the vast majority of these people didn't participate in any form of Jewish culture in their lifetime) and as coffee-table discussion for Jewish pride enthusiasts. Neither of which is an encyclopedic purpose. I (and you) have yet to be presented with a secondary source that proves otherwise. Bulldog123 16:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- The main arguments were not about WP:SAL, and WP:List. Also, only one person made the category argument. The article/list does not conform with BLP policies, and several guidelines (mentioned earlier in the discussion) that state that ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation need to be relevant to the notability of the person. Also, the definition of Who is a Jew? is disputed, and it would be very difficult to come to consensus on that.
- List guidelines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists) tell us that when establishing list membership, one has to check: If this person/thing/etc., wasn't an X, would it reduce their fame or significance?
- and Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X?--Therexbanner (talk) 10:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep per User:Jayjg and above...Modernist (talk) 12:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment So, can we get a headcount for how many WP:ILIKEIT and WP:JUSTA there are here? Bulldog123 17:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete - Wikipedia should not be placing people into subjective and potentially contentious ethnic or religious categories. Doing so is against the spirit of WP:BLPCAT. NickCT (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Would you then be supportive of deleting, say: List of Palestinians, List of Palestinian-Americans, List of Muslim scientists, List of Muslim mathematicians, List of Muslim astronomers, List of Muslim writers and poets, List of Muslim actors, Muslim doctors, List of American Muslims, List of Shi'a Muslims, List of converts to Islam, List of Arab scientists and scholars, List of Arab Americans, List of Arab Canadians, and List of Arab American writers?--Epeefleche (talk) 18:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Epee, is that even a serious question? Do you understand why we're even trying to delete this list? Bulldog123 19:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Comment--Jews as an ethnicity and nation. The Jewish ethnicity, nation, and religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.[1][2][3]
Thus, in the (unusual) case of Jews, a nation that was largely dispersed 2,000 years ago from its homeland and geographic borders, it is not appropriate to delete. The Jewish nation lives largely, though now not wholly, in the Jewish diaspora. Under Israel's Law of Return, all members of the Jewish nation are automatically entitled, by virtue of being members of the Jewish nation, to return to the geographic borders of Israel, and become Israeli citizens. Other religions are, in the "normal case," distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or Atheist nation per se. Those who are members of these religions are not members of a nation or "people." Jews, peculiarly, are not just a religion, but are also a nation. In addition to the other points presented above, this is one that militates in favor or a !keep.
- ^ "The Jewish Problem: How To Solve It," U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, "Jews are a distinctive nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station or shade of belief, is necessarily a member" (April 25, 1915), University of Louisville Louis D. Brandeis School of Law, Retrieved on November 30, 2010
- ^ Palmer, Henry, A History of the Jewish Nation (1875), D. Lothrop & Co., Retrieved on November 30, 2010
- ^ The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 7: Berlin Years, Albert Einstein, "The Jewish Nation is a living fact" (June 21, 1921), Princeton University Press, Retrieved on November 30, 2010
--Epeefleche (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- What a special nation, then. The only nation where being an 1/8th of that nationality grants you instant citizenship. Interesting. I can't imagine how many Jewish people don't even realize they're of two different nationalities. Bulldog123 19:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- as far as I can tell, the only possible way to work with the term here is to regard anyone who self-identifies or is identified by RSs with any aspect of this as Jewish. There will sometimes be a necessity to specify further, but not for groups like the one in question here. The same sort of ambiguity applies to many other groupings also with multiple overlapping definitions of fuzzy criteria. e.g. . American, male, Chinese, or to such occupational roles as businessman or scientist. To write an encyclopedia one has to schematize a little, and the way to deal with that is to say what we are doing in each instance. The reason we cannot rely on religion alone, is that there are different religiously-based definitions of who constitute the followers of the Jewish religion (or, in most cases, others religions also). As just one of the distinctions, most Orthodox Jews do not regard someone having been converted by a Reform rabbi as religiously a Jew. The correct application of the Law of Return in such cases is at the moment a matter of rather bitter and possibly unreconcilable controversy, which can not be part of the criteria for a list like this.
- With respect to BLP, as mentioned earlier, this applies in only some cases, and I would indeed favor not including in this list someone who is living and does not wish to identify as Jewish, regardless of the actual facts of the matter. Living people do have a right to pick what public identities they choose, but any extension of any of the BLP precepts beyond actually living is an extension which would require a new general discussion about BNLP. DGG ( talk ) 18:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Per established precedent for such lists of notable individuals, as clarified in WP:SAL, WP:LSC, WP:LISTNAME, WP:SALAT, and WP:LISTPEOPLE, this list is specifically per applicable policies and guidelines and serves the project and its readers. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 18:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- So list of blonde actresses and list of ethnic German Nobel laureates is cool too, right? Want to see the secondary sources I have on those too? Also, noting your suspicious lack of participation in: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates. Bulldog123 19:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Since when is not having previously learned or spoken up at some different AFD now to be called "suspicious lack of particpation"? I do have a life away from Wikipedia, and I know of no policy or guideline that says that if I speak up at one AFD, I must magically know of all others and then must speak up at these others. And toward your other point... as this nomination is not about blonde actresses or German Nobel laureates, if those other non-existant articles were to be written and were then sent to deletion, they would also have to be descernable as meeting guideline... but you're welcome to write them. And, as I know you were not canvassing me here for input there, I do wish to thank you for bringing that other to my attention. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 20:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong gab 19:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NOTDIR, criteria #6, which states that: "Wikipedia articles are not non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations, such as "People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y" or "Restaurants specializing in food type X in city Y". Cross-categories like these are not considered sufficient basis to create an article, unless the intersection of those categories is in some way a culturally significant phenomenon." This article is an almost exact fit for "People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y", where religious group X = Jews and organization Y = Nobel laureates. SnottyWong comment 19:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it isn't even that. It is "people we can convince ourselves just about belong in ethnic/cultural/religious group X...". AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- As DGG pointed out to Snotty in reply to his parallel comment elsewhere, "as usual, if they have a Wikipedia article, including them isn't a violation of NOT DIR. A violation would be including every such actor, whether or not notable."--Epeefleche (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- But is including people who appear not to actually be Jewish for any purposes other than the list itself acceptable? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- As DGG pointed out to Snotty in reply to his parallel comment elsewhere, "as usual, if they have a Wikipedia article, including them isn't a violation of NOT DIR. A violation would be including every such actor, whether or not notable."--Epeefleche (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it isn't even that. It is "people we can convince ourselves just about belong in ethnic/cultural/religious group X...". AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN There's reasonable evidence to suggest that User:Epeefleche is participating in an email-based WP:CANVASSing campaign for users likely to !vote keep on this AfD (and other recent Jewish AfDs). See the following for evidence: IP address belongs to User:DustFormsWords - he forgot to sign in Note that User:Epeefleche has a long history of WP:CANVASSing keep-friendly individuals to participate in Jews CfDs/AfDs. Here are diffs from one of Epee's canvassing campaigns a few years ago: [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40]. He now chooses to do this more surreptitiously by email. Anybody who has been canvassed by Epeefleche to participate in this AfD should come forward to quell suspicion. Bulldog123 02:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)