Content deleted Content added
→Joseon tongsinsa: ammending |
|||
Line 22: | Line 22: | ||
*'''Redirect''' To [[Korean missions to Edo]]. And leave a note at wikiproject history, wikiproject Korea and wikiproject Japan to get someone with knowledge to look at how much should be merged. There are sources at [[Korean missions to Edo]], and text at [[Joseon tongsinsa]]. This does not seem like a good thing, but it is a thing that ought to be fixable. [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 20:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Redirect''' To [[Korean missions to Edo]]. And leave a note at wikiproject history, wikiproject Korea and wikiproject Japan to get someone with knowledge to look at how much should be merged. There are sources at [[Korean missions to Edo]], and text at [[Joseon tongsinsa]]. This does not seem like a good thing, but it is a thing that ought to be fixable. [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 20:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
||
::This nomination really should not have happened this soon. It's only 3 days since the merge discussion was started, and there are sources at [[Korean missions to Edo]]. [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 20:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
::This nomination really should not have happened this soon. It's only 3 days since the merge discussion was started, and there are sources at [[Korean missions to Edo]]. [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 20:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
||
::[[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] -- '''No''', yours seems not to have been a constructive comment in my view. Both [[Joseon tongsinsa]] <u>and</u> [[Joseon Tongsinsa]] are unsourced, but some or all of the material may be valuable or may be mere propoganda ... -- we just don't know. I wrote [[Korean missions to Edo]] and without more, my research can't resolve the problems in these articles with Korean titles; and it appears impossible even to discuss changing the titles to something consistent with [[WP:Use English]]. Something beyond my ability is needed. I was bold even to attempt this ... --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
|||
:::[[User:Brianyoumans|Brianyoumans]] -- '''Yes''', yours was a helpful and welcome comment. This article comes to my attention because a Korean editor experienced in the harsh melée flowing from [[Ilbongun wianbu]] proposed merging [[Joseon Tongsinsa]] and [[Joseon tongsinsa]] and [[Korean missions to Edo]]. |
|||
:::The article I wrote about the 12 Joseon missions to the Tokugawa court in Edo is fully cited with links embedded in some of the citations; but the rough-draft text was created using only Japanese-, French- and English-language sources. In this instance, I was personally very eager for this to work out because I looked for collaboration in resolving pre-[[Hepburn romanization]]s of Korean names in reports of Joseon missions as recorded in [[Nihon Ōdai Ichiran]]. Instead, the myriad perceived causes for acrimony were too subtle, too intractable, too omni-present for me to have done more than is shown [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Korean_missions_to_Edo here]; but I hope that an oblique approach may achieve different results. In my view, the subject justifies putting in a little extra effort .... --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:00, 25 August 2008
Joseon tongsinsa
- Joseon tongsinsa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
Proposed for deletion because of edit history and unverifiable content. (1) More time, effort and care were invested in wiki-tagging for improvement than originator invested in text draft, and (2) there have been no other editors willing or able to address substantive problems which remain in this stagnant article. Tenmei (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Merge to Joseon tongsinsa. It is ridiculous to have both. I suspect this is based on info that was on tongsinsa.org, back when it existed. The Tongsinsas seem to have been seized upon as an example of good Korea-Japan relations, and commemorated in an annual festival. I think the subject is notable, especially given the festival, but some actual refs should be found. If no refs can be found, it could be reduced to a stub. Brianyoumans (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- At first blush, the merge of Joseon tongsinsa and Joseon Tongsinsa would seem obvious; but combining two separately-created unsourced articles produces only a larger problem -- a systems-focused solution which only appears to be a constructive step towards something better, but which does nothing to resolve the content issues -- see Talk:Joseon tongsinsa#Deletion.
- This article was created by an anonymous contributor who also abandoned a similarly-composed article about tomb mounds near Pyeongyang. I wonder if there is some kind of hidden POV-driven agenda which makes sense in some sort of skewed Pyeongyang-informed analysis? I certainly hope that there are other, better and more innocent explanations for this ..., but without more, even this kind of extreme possibility can't be ruled out.
- The first line at WP:V is on-point in this context:
- "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
- This posting may be an impossible-to-unsnarl mixture of fact and fiction or it may be crucially flawed or misleading or contrived in a manner inconsistent with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view -- we just don't know ...?
- The first line at WP:V is on-point in this context:
- I foresee problems in what you modestly suggest, "If no refs can be found, it could be reduced to a stub." The problem is implicit in your verb -- "reduce." The critical editing you propose would inevitably involve parsing the text: What to leave in? What to edit out?
- Even with strict adherence to WP:V, that task quickly becomes an impossible-to-navigate, ever-changing mine field of objections, indignation, misunderstandings. I don't have the temerity to broach a Sisyphean struggle without looking for alternatives ....
- I was hoping that by listing this article here, it might be pulled within the ambit of Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron? --Tenmei (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- It is too bad that we can't find a Korean or Japanese editor to work on this. There was supposedly a book published in 2006 on the Tongsinsas. That also may be where this came from. But, largely I agree with you - based solely on the sources available on the web, the stub would be fairly short. Brianyoumans (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- I was hoping that by listing this article here, it might be pulled within the ambit of Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron? --Tenmei (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Redirect To Korean missions to Edo. And leave a note at wikiproject history, wikiproject Korea and wikiproject Japan to get someone with knowledge to look at how much should be merged. There are sources at Korean missions to Edo, and text at Joseon tongsinsa. This does not seem like a good thing, but it is a thing that ought to be fixable. Taemyr (talk) 20:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- This nomination really should not have happened this soon. It's only 3 days since the merge discussion was started, and there are sources at Korean missions to Edo. Taemyr (talk) 20:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Taemyr -- No, yours seems not to have been a constructive comment in my view. Both Joseon tongsinsa and Joseon Tongsinsa are unsourced, but some or all of the material may be valuable or may be mere propoganda ... -- we just don't know. I wrote Korean missions to Edo and without more, my research can't resolve the problems in these articles with Korean titles; and it appears impossible even to discuss changing the titles to something consistent with WP:Use English. Something beyond my ability is needed. I was bold even to attempt this ... --Tenmei (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Brianyoumans -- Yes, yours was a helpful and welcome comment. This article comes to my attention because a Korean editor experienced in the harsh melée flowing from Ilbongun wianbu proposed merging Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo.
- The article I wrote about the 12 Joseon missions to the Tokugawa court in Edo is fully cited with links embedded in some of the citations; but the rough-draft text was created using only Japanese-, French- and English-language sources. In this instance, I was personally very eager for this to work out because I looked for collaboration in resolving pre-Hepburn romanizations of Korean names in reports of Joseon missions as recorded in Nihon Ōdai Ichiran. Instead, the myriad perceived causes for acrimony were too subtle, too intractable, too omni-present for me to have done more than is shown here; but I hope that an oblique approach may achieve different results. In my view, the subject justifies putting in a little extra effort .... --Tenmei (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)