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:so who considers this campaign a significant separate initiative-- First, even the institute itself doesn't seem to do so consistently. Second, there is no reference from a supporter of the Institute's position that uses the phrase--not even Bush. Third, there is no reference from an opponent of the position that uses the phrase. |
:so who considers this campaign a significant separate initiative-- First, even the institute itself doesn't seem to do so consistently. Second, there is no reference from a supporter of the Institute's position that uses the phrase--not even Bush. Third, there is no reference from an opponent of the position that uses the phrase. |
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::I think that settles it--not a POV fork, exactly, but an attempt to use something not notable without a single independent reference to the phrase as a specific title of anything, to provide another place to discuss the controversy over the institute and ID. It's about as notable as calling it "Intelligent Design, argument continued into 2007" '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 00:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
::I think that settles it--not a POV fork, exactly, but an attempt to use something not notable without a single independent reference to the phrase as a specific title of anything, to provide another place to discuss the controversy over the institute and ID. It's about as notable as calling it "Intelligent Design, argument continued into 2007" '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 00:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Good article on a notable branch of the Discovery Institute's well-documented PR campaign to foist ID off as science. I don't see any genuine issues with the sources provided; some of the most strentuous objections here appear to be based on a misunderstanding of the guidelines for the proper use of primary sources. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 01:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:52, 30 May 2007
Free Speech on Evolution
- Free Speech on Evolution (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
unnotable Martialis 16:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
There's only one reference, which indicates only that the article is ridiculous. Martialis 16:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Speedy delete - db-spam, and so marked. In any case, WP:SOAPBOX applies here. The Evil Spartan 16:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete semi-scientific propaganda; disguised by multiple references to publications by a single institute with a clear mission. WP:NPOV and WP:SOAPBOX. Arnoutf 18:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Since when is neutrally and accurately describing a group's PR campaign proscribed? Better to accurately and neutrally cover it here than let them get away with claiming it is something it is not elsewhere. And if sources are missing, then add some.Odd nature 19:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Arnoutf (but not speediable IMO, I removed that tag...there are refs and it seems possibly notable on its face). I agree with Odd nature that a NPOV description of this thing is certainly encyclopediac, but the article here needs more WP:RS than just self-published sources to in order to be more than just an extension of the PR campaign itself. The one non-self-source doesn't appear to mention the campaign directly, so its inclusion borders on WP:OR by synthesis. DMacks 19:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - the article's references are all from what WP:ATT defines as partisan & self-published souces. These sources are not reliable or notable. I would respectfully disagree with Odd nature, Wikipedia does not cover the PR campaigns of organizations unless those campaigns are notable in & of themselves (i.e mentioned in secondary sources)--Cailil talk 20:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Additional sources have since been added. Also, according to W:V and WP:RS, which are actual policy unlike WP:ATT, the sources you object to as partisan are being used exactly as policy dictates, as primary sources for what the partisan group (the Discovery Institute) says. Odd nature 20:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- The three I just read are all a single quote of a Discovery Institute person stating that he feels that what Bush said is in keeping with their PR campaign. Actually no, they are just using the topic-title, not even explicit that this is related to the actual PR campaign. They are three cites of exactly the same quote in the same context, all with no further commentary on the quote or the campaign. That doesn't sounds like third-party support for notability of the campaign. DMacks 21:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep This article describes an attempt by the Discovery Institute to place religious dogma into public school curriculum. It's the same as Intelligent Design, Teach the controversy, the Wedge document and numerous other articles on the same topic. Orangemarlin 20:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, per OrangeMarlin; this is a notable DI campaign, and the article is supported by multiple independent sources. Guettarda 20:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, per OM and Guettarda. •Jim62sch• 21:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Extremely Strong Keep I cannot imagine why on earth this article is not worthy of keeping. Basically the Discovery Institute has made itself prominent in the public sphere by its lobbying and public relations efforts. And all of its related activities are clearly of encyclopedic importance, including the campaign that is the subject of this article. I am certain that more material will be available to add to this article to flesh it out.--Filll 22:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete Is this about a specific name campaign, or the general idea of "free speech on evolution," ? If the second, ID and related articles cover the ground very thoroughly. So it would have to be a specific campaign. Given that the discovery Institute is notable, not everything it does is. There is no reason to think a particular campaign notable unless it ha independently been the subject of notice.
- Ref #1 is about ID, not this campaign in particular; so is #2, which uses the term in the generic sense only. #3 talks about many things, of which evolution under any wording is a minor part, #4 is generic "who don't believe in free speech on evolution," he explains." --that is not talking about any specific campaign. #5 is about ID in general and even says so. #6 doesn't even mention the phrase. #7 uses the title for the campaign, without in any way showing how it might differ from any of its other initiatives. In any case, it's an internal PR from the Institute and not an independent source. #8 doesn't mention the phrase. #9 doesn't mention the phrase. #10 is the 2nd part of #7, and in any case not independent. #11, again from the institute, doesn't mention the phrase. #12, also from the institute, uses the phrase .
- so who considers this campaign a significant separate initiative-- First, even the institute itself doesn't seem to do so consistently. Second, there is no reference from a supporter of the Institute's position that uses the phrase--not even Bush. Third, there is no reference from an opponent of the position that uses the phrase.
- I think that settles it--not a POV fork, exactly, but an attempt to use something not notable without a single independent reference to the phrase as a specific title of anything, to provide another place to discuss the controversy over the institute and ID. It's about as notable as calling it "Intelligent Design, argument continued into 2007" DGG 00:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Good article on a notable branch of the Discovery Institute's well-documented PR campaign to foist ID off as science. I don't see any genuine issues with the sources provided; some of the most strentuous objections here appear to be based on a misunderstanding of the guidelines for the proper use of primary sources. FeloniousMonk 01:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)