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:::::::::Your comments suggest you actually don't know the difference. And hey, if you can find lots of reliable sources on "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" (I can't believe someone is still trying to use the "Butter emails!" argument. Seriously, get a new obsession) then let's see them. Otherwise stop making crap up.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 06:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
:::::::::Your comments suggest you actually don't know the difference. And hey, if you can find lots of reliable sources on "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" (I can't believe someone is still trying to use the "Butter emails!" argument. Seriously, get a new obsession) then let's see them. Otherwise stop making crap up.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 06:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::You didn't like that suggestion, did you? You just revealed your bias. But here's the sources that could be used for that article since you asked: [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/clinton-family-runs-vast-criminal-enterprise-ex-nyc-fbi-boss-article-1.2851259] [http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/14/gregg-jarrett-hillary-clinton-must-face-consequences-her-actions-and-scrutiny-special-counsel.html] and for balance an opposing viewpoints article [https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/02/04/hillary-clintons-email-habits-careless-or-criminal] Opinions reported by reliable sources. I could synth that together with a couple news reports on the investigation and create an article. It doesn't prove she broke the law, but that's not important, we just need reliable sources reporting that other people think she broke the law. If you want to lower the bar to have a low-quality POV article about one person, then you shouldn't have a problem with another low-quality POV article about someone you like.--[[User:Rusf10|Rusf10]] ([[User talk:Rusf10|talk]]) 06:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
::::::::::You didn't like that suggestion, did you? You just revealed your bias. But here's the sources that could be used for that article since you asked: [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/clinton-family-runs-vast-criminal-enterprise-ex-nyc-fbi-boss-article-1.2851259] [http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/14/gregg-jarrett-hillary-clinton-must-face-consequences-her-actions-and-scrutiny-special-counsel.html] and for balance an opposing viewpoints article [https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/02/04/hillary-clintons-email-habits-careless-or-criminal] Opinions reported by reliable sources. I could synth that together with a couple news reports on the investigation and create an article. It doesn't prove she broke the law, but that's not important, we just need reliable sources reporting that other people think she broke the law. If you want to lower the bar to have a low-quality POV article about one person, then you shouldn't have a problem with another low-quality POV article about someone you like.--[[User:Rusf10|Rusf10]] ([[User talk:Rusf10|talk]]) 06:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::No, I didn't "reveal my bias". I just pointed out how dumb your suggestion was, because it lacked reliable sources. And seriously buddy, NYDailyNews? That's like a definition of not a reliable source. Fox News not much better. If you could "synth" anything, then go ahead - but you really can't.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 07:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::*When people break the law, it's settled in a courtroom. In that case the "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" article wouldn't be appropriate without her being found guilty of crimes. On the other hand if you wanted to write "Email activity of Hilary Clinton" go ahead with your sources. [[User:Starship.paint|'''starship''']][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|'''.paint ~''']] '''<span style="border:2px solid black">[[User talk:Starship.paint|<span style="color:white;background:black;">KO</span>]]</span>''' 07:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
::::::::::*When people break the law, it's settled in a courtroom. In that case the "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" article wouldn't be appropriate without her being found guilty of crimes. On the other hand if you wanted to write "Email activity of Hilary Clinton" go ahead with your sources. [[User:Starship.paint|'''starship''']][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|'''.paint ~''']] '''<span style="border:2px solid black">[[User talk:Starship.paint|<span style="color:white;background:black;">KO</span>]]</span>''' 07:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - biased political opinions and allegation which are unsupported by any sense of logic - politicians gearing up for 2018 elections. <sup>[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]</sup> 02:26, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' - biased political opinions and allegation which are unsupported by any sense of logic - politicians gearing up for 2018 elections. <sup>[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]</sup> 02:26, 16 January 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:21, 16 January 2018
Donald Trump racial views
Note: article was moved to Racial views of Donald Trump 22:37, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Racial views of Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Donald Trump racial views (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The nature of the article is incredibly biased and non-neutral, lacks encyclopedic tone, lacks encyclopedic value, basically an "article" full of trivia, pretty close to being a WP:QUOTEFARM, and seems to violate BLP standards "bigly" (at least to me). I'm neutral politically and actually lean left, but I cannot believe this even exists as an article. Or anyone thought it was a good idea to begin with. Or that anyone thinks it's encyclopedic in any way. shape. or form.
An example of the kind of POV and unencyclopedic content this article invites (because it's political, because it's "Racism!", because it's Trump - the terror trifecta that just begs controversy, POV, and bias in content and tone): [1]. If this article stands, it's only going to get worse in the way of blatant POV content without encyclopedic tone or value. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:42, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - It's not incredibly biased, but even it were, that's not a valid reason for deletion. The content is extremely well sourced and has been been covered for 45 years. There was a discussion at talk:Donald Trump#Racial views about the need to create this article and the support was overwhelming. It is not full of trivia, nor does it violate WP:BLP. If that argument is to be considered, one would expect it to be accompanied by some sort of evidence of how it violates WP:BLP.- MrX 00:55, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I'll tellya what's a shithole; this nomination, a big cuppa of "I don't like it". The current president of the United States has made numerous statements that have been construed as racist by numerous reliable sources. The depth and breath of coverage regarding this man's racist statements spanning 4+ decades is staggering, with the latest comments regarding Haiti and such receiving international condemnation. This is a notable topic that would overwhelm the main biographical article, so a separate article is appropriate. TheValeyard (talk) 01:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. Not encyclopedic and WP:POVFORK. It's pretty much just a collection of quotes from random pundits who call Trump racist over (insert Trump controversy here). Trump's most recent remarks about Haiti and African countries (apparently the main reason this article was created) should be merged into Immigration policy of Donald Trump. FallingGravity 02:01, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, the article has a lot of prose and relatively few quotes. Most of the quotes are from Trump himself. The largest section in the article are the Central Park jogger case which provides solid background for why his actions were criticized as racially-motivated. There is a section about Trump being sued by the DOJ for housing discrimination against black people. There's a section on polling. This is a comprehensive subject with a scope beyond any existing subject except perhaps Donald Trump which is already too bloated with real estate deals and Apprentice tirvia to contain the full breadth and depth of Trump's racially-provocative remarks and actions that are perceived as racially-motivated.- MrX 03:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Central Park jogger case already has its own article where his actions are described in detail. The only inclusion criteria for this article appears to be if you get some pundit to call him racist, not that the incident actually gives us insight into his "racial views". FallingGravity 06:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Not exactly sure how it is a POVFORK when the lead material is essentially in Donald Trump - what POV is it forking off of. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's a collection of incidents meant to prove a certain POV: that Trump is racist. FallingGravity 18:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's nonsense. It's an article about his racial views, which discuss some examples ("incidents") in a broader context. What is it suppose to do? Talk about his racial views without actually referring to his words or actions? What kind of a silly suggestion is that? Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's a collection of incidents meant to prove a certain POV: that Trump is racist. FallingGravity 18:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. FallingGravity 02:08, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- (Also "it's a POV violation" is not valid reason for deletion. Not that it is. See WP:AADD).Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. This is probably the most widely covered and important subject related to his election campaign, his personal views and his actual policies. Consider the number of other WP pages on various events that should be linked to this page or vice versa. No, the page is not hopelessly biased. It simply covers a highly important and controversial subject. It can not be merged to Immigration policy of Donald Trump because many issue on the page are not about immigration (only some are). It should not be merged to Political positions of Donald Trump because personal views and political positions by the person are frequently not the same. The latter are results of compromise with other members of the same Party, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 02:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - the breadth and depth of coverage (mostly 2016-2018) is more than enough for notability. starship.paint ~ KO 02:55, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- You're aware that notability isn't even part of the nomination? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 02:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- You wrote lacks encyclopedic value, basically an "article" full of trivia. I would think notability is the opposite of that. starship.paint ~ KO 03:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- The man has now directly denied being a racist. Increasing the notability of this topic by addressing it. starship.paint ~ KO 03:05, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Notability is a Wikipedia litmus test and a general guideline, not the be-all-end-all for encyclopedic worth. That said, "coverage" doesn't necessarily equate notability (your litmus test). -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 03:08, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Uh, wait a minute. If "notability isn't even part of the nomination?", WHAT exactly is the basis for the nomination? (And don't say "it's not encyclopedic", that's circular). Here, per policy, are the reasons for deletion. Which one of them is suppose to apply? It's not a copyvio, it's not a vandalism, it's not a template, category or an image, it's not an advertisement. The ONLY possible criteria for deletion which COULD (but does not, as you admit yourself) apply is notability. And it's notable. So what IS the reason for the nomination? WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT? Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:16, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- You're aware that notability isn't even part of the nomination? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 02:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - per FallingGravity. Include comments about race and immigration in Immigration policy of Donald Trump or Political positions of Donald Trump. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 03:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Housing discrimination, birtherism, and full page ads calling for black teenagers to be executed do not fit into immigration. Sorry, but this article is not only about Trump's racist comments.- MrX 03:41, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Birtherism is covered in Donald Trump and Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Donald Trump. Housing discrimination is covered in Business career of Donald Trump. Full page ads is covered in Central Park jogger case (which this article copies generously). FallingGravity 18:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, even if that was done (it shouldn't) there'd still be plenty left for a full fledged, notable topic, article, so this isn't really an argument for deletion.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per Talk:Donald Trump#Racial views -- an appropriate WP:SPINOUT. Meets notability guidelines for stand-alone articles, with WP:SIGCOV covering the subject. Sources have been widely reporting on Mr Trump's racial views, so there's no BLP violation here. Nor is this content undue, given the extensive coverage over time. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Numerous RS have commented on his history with racially-charged etc remarks and have connected these incidents into a pattern - and thus it is encyclopedic topic. Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think it is incredibly biased. Just because almost everyone (including republicans like Paul Ryan) have problems with his statements, and so it is generally negative against trump, doesn't mean it is biased. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - the amount of sources on the topic out there is immense. The topic is encyclopedic and helluva more notable than probably a million or two Wikipedia articles. The delete votes appear to be motivated by WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding the kind of content "this invites" - that definitely shouldn't be there - and indeed it isn't there in the article nor will it ever be. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete While it is possible that this may be a valid topic in the future, at present we lack secondary sources that tie all these incidents together. Hence it fails notability, and instead is synthesis that connects incidents that Wikipedia editors have deemed relevant in order to prove a thesis, that Trump is a racist. Even if secondary sources could be found, it would be better to blow it up and start again, because it is easier to write a proper article than to correct a hopelessly flawed one. TFD (talk) 05:25, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- What are you talking about, if anything there is an over abundance of secondary sources that do this? [2]. And there's nothing "hopelessly flawed" about this one either.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- The Four Deuces did you forget WP:BEFORE? Literally the first four references of the article tie these "incident" together. Now that it has been pointed out that your argument is completely fallacious, will you be changing your comment to keep?- MrX 15:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- They are opinion pieces and hence fail reliability. Furthermore you don't have any sources that establish the weight of these opinions. In a similar vein there have been a number of commentators who have called Trump a fascist, but the History Channel contacted some of the top fascism experts to weigh in on the topic. Obviously an article based on what experts say would read differently from one based on what his detractors say. And it's the same here. TFD (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Who would you say are the experts that are suppose to "weigh in" on this topic? This is just an excuse to dismiss reliable sources. Lots and lots of reliable sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- They are opinion pieces and hence fail reliability. Furthermore you don't have any sources that establish the weight of these opinions. In a similar vein there have been a number of commentators who have called Trump a fascist, but the History Channel contacted some of the top fascism experts to weigh in on the topic. Obviously an article based on what experts say would read differently from one based on what his detractors say. And it's the same here. TFD (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete The very term "race" is contested so much, and by some rejected as meaningless, that unless Trump were to write a coherent statement in which he explained what he thought of the term, we would be always hopelessly stuck in following heavily POV-pushing sources that at times speak across each other by using the same term for very different things.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Johnpacklambert, you did it: "The very term "race" is contested so much, and by some rejected as meaningless..." is the most hilarious statement of the day. Yes race as a biological construct is contested by many, esp. by many on the left, who argue that it is biologically meaningless. But sociologically it is not, and denying it is silly. That Trump doesn't understand the first thing about race in any kind of way doesn't mean he doesn't held well-publicized views on race; after all, he had no problem spotting them: "there's my African-American!" One might likewise argue that "religion" is a malleable term and regarded by many as meaningless (in a conceptual, intellectual sense), yet Religious views of Adolf Hitler exists here on Wikipedia, as do article on the religious views of many other celebs. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- There's no such thing as "POV sources". There are reliable sources and not reliable sources. If a subject is covered widely in reliable sources then it is notable. The fact that YOUJUSTDONTLIKE what reliable sources write is not a valid reason for deletion. Or much of anything on Wikipedia.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- That argument is entirely contrary to WP:V and WP:OR. "Race (and its derivatives) is largely a social construct, but it has a commonly-understood meaning.- MrX 15:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - The nomination statement accurately describes the mixture of thoughts I had when stumbling upon the article shortly after its creation. Killiondude (talk) 07:46, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the nominating statement is a combination of WP:IDLI and WP:VAGUEWAVE. Can you elaborate to explain how this article doesn't meet our inclusion criteria? - MrX 17:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- I appreciate your questioning yet cordial reply. I've read the nom a few times now. It (the nom statement) seems to point toward valid (policy-wise) deletion arguments. The "lacks encyclopedic value" struck home the most. I'm not sure this is worth it's own article. If Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, we should be able to refrain from reporting on every facet of a person's life. Most of this article can be summed up in Donald Trump. After reading what Rusf10 write below, I can also see how the title/topic of the article is illogical. Killiondude (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the nominating statement is a combination of WP:IDLI and WP:VAGUEWAVE. Can you elaborate to explain how this article doesn't meet our inclusion criteria? - MrX 17:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's a pity that while stumbling you didn't happen upon a valid reason for deletion. Drmies (talk) 00:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- What a fun reply you gave! Killiondude (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - more than enough sources discuss Trump and racism. This goes back to his racist property management issues years ago. POVFORK is a hilarious argument though, if only because it depends on the premise that people want to make an article that doesn't represent the consensus view about the subject. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - this is highly notable and there are dozens of reportable instances of Donald Trump exuding racism. -- Gokunks (Speak to me) 08:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - because racism is so taboo, those who are opposed to the transcription of Trump's racial views attempt to misconstrue the facts, out of all proportion, to fit a non-racist narrative. Perhaps the page could be both improved and made more palatable by broadening it to discuss Trump's heavy reliance on stereotyping in general (which isn't only limited to race but also includes religion and gender). Avisnacks (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep but rename - the name is jarringly ungrammatical. fish&karate 10:50, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Fish and karate: What should we rename it to? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:10, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- More sources that discuss these as a group: Associated Press [6]; PBS[7]. All these should be in a reflist at the bottom. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:35, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
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- Delete as WP:ATTACK page and unencyclopedic WP:SYNTHESIS effort. Trump's comments about incidents A, B and C can be mentioned in our articles about A, B, and C. And they usually are already prominently featured there, along with reactions to his remarks. — JFG talk 16:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Attack pages (i.e. Pages that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced.) should be speedily deleted under WP:CSD#G10. Why haven't you nominated it as such? Also, are you able to back up you claim of WP:SYNTHESIS? The first four sources establish that there is a 45 year history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions, as detailed throughout the article.- MrX 17:56, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep, somewhat cautiously/reluctantly. I don't buy at all that an article topic "inviting" problematic edits is a reason for deletion, but I do think that we're often too quick to create forks of high-profile topics that receive a new wave of coverage of a different aspect of the subject in every news cycle. Among those possible forks, though, there is a whole lot more coverage of this subject -- over a long period of time and in depth -- than most others such that it seems like one we should have, regardless of how difficult it is and will always be to present this with a NPOV. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:53, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify my position in the nomination, Rhododendrites, I've added an explanation of why I feel the article invites trouble: because it's political, because it's "Racism!", because it's Trump - the terror trifecta that just begs controversy, POV, and bias in the way of content and tone. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 17:01, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Wilkelvi: Thanks for adding. I do still reject the notions that (a) problematic editing/editors is a reason for deletion, since we have policies and guidelines to deal with that, and violating those policies (or threats thereof) should never be a way to affect content; and (b) that controversy or accusations of bias by either internal or external voices should likewise affect content that satisfies Wikipedia policies and guidelines (content which doesn't meet PAG should be fixed for that fact, not because it's controversial). I suppose there's an argument about a notable topic that cannot possibly satisfy NPOV, but I'm skeptical of that argument, and don't think this is one of them regardless. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify my position in the nomination, Rhododendrites, I've added an explanation of why I feel the article invites trouble: because it's political, because it's "Racism!", because it's Trump - the terror trifecta that just begs controversy, POV, and bias in the way of content and tone. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 17:01, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment what does "racial views" mean? FloridaArmy (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete, The article is pretty clearly a WP: coatrack for all the reasons people think he's a racist. A more appropriate name for that article would be "here's why Donald Trump is a racist". And I shouldn't have to point out how an article like that fails WP: NPOV. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Well, kinda the point is that lots of people do think he is a racist, and many sources detail that, and thus it is significant. Of course, we'd have to include the opinions of people who don't think he is racist. Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- And you do realize that we have a requirement to be impartial in our articles, and an article that is "here's why x is this bad thing" fails being impartial on form. It's like asking the question, When have you stopped beating your wife. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- No it's actually nothing like asking that question (because there is a possible "good answer - no, not racist", unlike in the wife beating question). And "impartial" means "as covered in reliable sources", not "what some random Wikipedia user thinks is impartial". Indeed it would be NOT impartial NOT to have this article given how widespread the coverage in reliable sources is.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Impartiality doesn't mean "as covered in reliable sources", it means we present things impartially, and do not make arguments. Sources are not required to be impartial and can make arguments. An article structure such as "here's why x is this bad thing" is not impartial, and is making an argument, even if all content is sourced. It's why we don't have "Criticisms of" style articles either, they are inherently loaded and POV. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, that's pretty much what impartiality means on Wikipedia - reliable sources. And what article are you referring to when you characterize it as "here's why x is this bad thing"? Certainly not this one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- See my first comment. The article is pretty much written as "here's why trump is racist". And it's pretty clear you're conflating NPOV with V so there's no reason to try and explain impartiality further with you. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Where in the article does it say "here's why trump is a racist" or anything remotely similar? That seems like a complete strawman, but maybe I missed something.- MrX 21:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Where do I say that it says "here's why trump is a racist". I say it's a coatrack, and written as "here's why trump is racist". --Kyohyi (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think the page is rather careful about it. Many sources are a lot more explicit and explain why. My very best wishes (talk) 21:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Kyohy:, Are you suggesting that we should write about Trump's racial views without giving any examples of his racial views, even though several of the feature articles used as sources do exactly that. According to the essay you cited, a coatrack is an "article that ostensibly discusses its nominal subject, but instead focuses on another subject entirely". What exactly are these two subjects in this article that different such that you would refer to it as a coatrack? - MrX 22:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Where in the article does it say "here's why trump is a racist" or anything remotely similar? That seems like a complete strawman, but maybe I missed something.- MrX 21:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- See my first comment. The article is pretty much written as "here's why trump is racist". And it's pretty clear you're conflating NPOV with V so there's no reason to try and explain impartiality further with you. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, that's pretty much what impartiality means on Wikipedia - reliable sources. And what article are you referring to when you characterize it as "here's why x is this bad thing"? Certainly not this one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Impartiality doesn't mean "as covered in reliable sources", it means we present things impartially, and do not make arguments. Sources are not required to be impartial and can make arguments. An article structure such as "here's why x is this bad thing" is not impartial, and is making an argument, even if all content is sourced. It's why we don't have "Criticisms of" style articles either, they are inherently loaded and POV. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- No it's actually nothing like asking that question (because there is a possible "good answer - no, not racist", unlike in the wife beating question). And "impartial" means "as covered in reliable sources", not "what some random Wikipedia user thinks is impartial". Indeed it would be NOT impartial NOT to have this article given how widespread the coverage in reliable sources is.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- And you do realize that we have a requirement to be impartial in our articles, and an article that is "here's why x is this bad thing" fails being impartial on form. It's like asking the question, When have you stopped beating your wife. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Well, kinda the point is that lots of people do think he is a racist, and many sources detail that, and thus it is significant. Of course, we'd have to include the opinions of people who don't think he is racist. Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - This has signficant coverage in reliable sources. The claim of synthesis is just baffling; the article is not just a compilation of different comments or events — rather, a wide array of published material deals with the topic overall. Similar articles could be written on other presidents (for example, Woodrow Wilson). Surely we have an obligation to write this is a careful way. But we also have an equal obligation to include this topic, and in some detail. Trump is the president of the United States and what he has said and done, or reportedly said and done, is historically significant. Neutralitytalk 18:35, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep, per Neutrality, starship.paint, and Volunteer Marek. AndrewOne (talk) 18:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep IMO this "shithole" incident, which initiated the development of this article, will turn out to be a historical watershed event. It's been at the top of every news program, on talk news shows almost 24/7, and has been internationally a top news story as well. Dozens of sources are now discussing Trump's long history of racism. If this article is deleted we'd all have to believe that Wikipedia is in serious danger from a very vocal minority. Just like our democracy is. Gandydancer (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - very notable, worldwide major coverage.Smeat75 (talk) 22:01, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep: This isn't an opinion piece and Trump's racial views are a perpetual point of contention and debate on both sides of the aisle. I believe that rather than looking at deleting this article, it should be explored if there should be a separate article about his "shithole countries" remark, assuming it does not fall under NOTNEWS. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 23:42, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep This is inevitably going to be a notable topic, and it makes no difference (or shouldn't make any difference) whether anyone likes that or not. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - As a deletionist, not even I can argue for the deletion of this article. President Trump's racist rhetoric has been widely covered not just by the American media, but by world media. As the President of the United States, he ran his campaign under the wagon of prejudice and racism. His racist views preceded his election as President and goes back several decades as evident in the reliable sources cited. I want to make it clear that this article is primarily about his racist views, not his policies in government. His racist views passes the notability test and have received worldwide coverage from independent reliable sources. What I am seeing here is WP:IDLI. This article is well referenced and his views have received worldwide coverage from multiple sources - each addressing his views in detail. If his racist views were not notable enough, they would not have been covered in the magnitude they were covered. I would also like to draw to the attention of the closing admin (and the community) the fact that, his racist views are not a one off or a slip of the tongue (if it was, I would have been more inclined to merge it to his article), but a pattern of behaviour that goes back decades, at least as far back as 1973 when the U.S. Department of Justice brought litigation against him, his father and their company. This pattern of behaviour continued up to his election and thereafter. This article is encyclopedic and I see nothing wrong with it as a stand alone other than "delete because I don't like it". "The point of an encyclopedia is to provide information, not to describe what you "like" or "don't like".31.54.224.18 (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
As a deletionist...
. Do you have an alternate account you need to disclose? Finding it hard to believe that your 7-hour, 6-edit history is exemplary of a deltionist mindset. TheValeyard (talk) 02:54, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - More evidence of Wikipedia's insane liberal bias. The "sources" are a bunch of far-left politicians and partisan pundits crying racism. "Pretty Korean lady" is considered racist? How desperate are some of you? Thismightbezach (talk) 00:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is the most nonsensical (and blatantly false) comment I've seen at AfD in a looooonnnnggggg time. And that's saying something.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete- As per nom. This is not only a WP:POVFORK, but falls under WP:SYNTH by stringing together a number of different incidents in which Donald Trump said something that could be perceived as racist and then comes to the conclusion that Donald Trump is a racist. Each incident is already covered in relevant articles. Nothing in the article reflects Trump's own views, which are technically unknown outside of his quote "I am not a racist." Instead the article is about what other people believe his views are. The analysis section is not actually an analysis, its just attack quotes from people like Jim Acosta who has been at odds with Trump since day 1.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- The relevant issue is the notability of the general topic of Trump's views on race, not the contents of the current article. Even if Trump's actual views on race cannot be determined with 100% certainty, we can certainly describe what sources have reported about the topic. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- If it's not possible to accurately determine what his views on race are, then you can't have an article on his views on race, simple as that. The appropriate name for the article as it currently stands would be "Perception of Donald Trump as a racist by other people" and I don't think I even need to explain why an article with that title wouldn't stand.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, you can have an article, because Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and we report what they say, simple as that. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- What is the reliable source that reports what Donald Trump actually thinks about race, as opposed to someone's opinion that he is racist? The only thing I can find is the quote of him saying that he's not a racist. You may or may not believe he is telling the truth, but it is the only statement by him about his racial views. Everything else is someone else's perception of what he said (ie. he said X and I think its racist).--Rusf10 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- "Donald Trump has been obsessed with race for the entire time he has been a public figure." More sources cited in the first paragraph of the article, if you need them.- MrX 02:37, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- What is the reliable source that reports what Donald Trump actually thinks about race, as opposed to someone's opinion that he is racist? The only thing I can find is the quote of him saying that he's not a racist. You may or may not believe he is telling the truth, but it is the only statement by him about his racial views. Everything else is someone else's perception of what he said (ie. he said X and I think its racist).--Rusf10 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, you can have an article, because Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and we report what they say, simple as that. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- If it's not possible to accurately determine what his views on race are, then you can't have an article on his views on race, simple as that. The appropriate name for the article as it currently stands would be "Perception of Donald Trump as a racist by other people" and I don't think I even need to explain why an article with that title wouldn't stand.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The question "What is the reliable source that reports what Donald Trump actually thinks about race, as opposed to someone's opinion that he is racist" misunderstands the issue completely. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, we base articles on reliable sources, reporting what they say. We are not meant to be arguing with the sources or using our own views to criticize them, hence the distinction between reliable sources reporting "what Donald Trump actually thinks" and reliable sources reporting someone's opinion about what he thinks is not something we need to worry over. Of course we would give academic sources more weight than newspaper pieces, but that's another matter. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually, opinion sources are reliable in many situations if they are attributed. Also these reliable sources:
- A President Who Fans, Rather Than Douses, the Nation’s Racial Fires
- We Must Denounce Trump’s Racist Actions, Not Just His Racist Words
- Is Donald Trump Racist? Here's What the Record Shows
- Trump's Long History of Racism
- Trump’s candidacy and presidency have been laced with racist rhetoric
- MrX 03:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the opinions absolutely can be used as RS per policy, especially if they are published by well known authors and in reputable newspapers, such as NYT. In fact, they are not just expert opinions, but qualify as analyses on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 04:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- All of you missed my point entirely. You can't title an article "Racial views of Donald Trump" and then write about someone else's view of him rather than his own views. The title of this article is not "Accusations of Donald Trump holding racist views"--Rusf10 (talk) 04:43, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia's policies, it is perfectly legitimate to write an article about Donald Trump's racial views based on what reliable sources say about those views. You are free to not like that, but simply not liking it doesn't override our policies in a policy-based discussion. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not about liking it or not, the article title is extremely misleading. You just can't title the article one thing and then right about another. The reliable sources are not about his views, they are about other people's view of him. His views (which is supposed to be the topic of the article) cannot be verified outside of a couple quotes where he says he is not a racist, everything else is just speculation about his views.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Please brush up on what a WP:SECONDARY source is. Sources written by other people which discuss his views are secondary sources, which is what we use. Statements from Trump himself are primary sources which we might mention but which are best used in the context of secondary sources. This is precisely what the article does. Your objection is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:37, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- You can cut the condescending language. I know the difference between primary and secondary sources. The secondary sources don't describe his views they describe other people views of him. Using your logic I can create Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton because I can find reliable sources that report other people have opined that she broke the law.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Your comments suggest you actually don't know the difference. And hey, if you can find lots of reliable sources on "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" (I can't believe someone is still trying to use the "Butter emails!" argument. Seriously, get a new obsession) then let's see them. Otherwise stop making crap up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- You didn't like that suggestion, did you? You just revealed your bias. But here's the sources that could be used for that article since you asked: [3] [4] and for balance an opposing viewpoints article [5] Opinions reported by reliable sources. I could synth that together with a couple news reports on the investigation and create an article. It doesn't prove she broke the law, but that's not important, we just need reliable sources reporting that other people think she broke the law. If you want to lower the bar to have a low-quality POV article about one person, then you shouldn't have a problem with another low-quality POV article about someone you like.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, I didn't "reveal my bias". I just pointed out how dumb your suggestion was, because it lacked reliable sources. And seriously buddy, NYDailyNews? That's like a definition of not a reliable source. Fox News not much better. If you could "synth" anything, then go ahead - but you really can't.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- When people break the law, it's settled in a courtroom. In that case the "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" article wouldn't be appropriate without her being found guilty of crimes. On the other hand if you wanted to write "Email activity of Hilary Clinton" go ahead with your sources. starship.paint ~ KO 07:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- You didn't like that suggestion, did you? You just revealed your bias. But here's the sources that could be used for that article since you asked: [3] [4] and for balance an opposing viewpoints article [5] Opinions reported by reliable sources. I could synth that together with a couple news reports on the investigation and create an article. It doesn't prove she broke the law, but that's not important, we just need reliable sources reporting that other people think she broke the law. If you want to lower the bar to have a low-quality POV article about one person, then you shouldn't have a problem with another low-quality POV article about someone you like.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Your comments suggest you actually don't know the difference. And hey, if you can find lots of reliable sources on "Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton" (I can't believe someone is still trying to use the "Butter emails!" argument. Seriously, get a new obsession) then let's see them. Otherwise stop making crap up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- You can cut the condescending language. I know the difference between primary and secondary sources. The secondary sources don't describe his views they describe other people views of him. Using your logic I can create Criminal activity of Hillary Clinton because I can find reliable sources that report other people have opined that she broke the law.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Please brush up on what a WP:SECONDARY source is. Sources written by other people which discuss his views are secondary sources, which is what we use. Statements from Trump himself are primary sources which we might mention but which are best used in the context of secondary sources. This is precisely what the article does. Your objection is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:37, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not about liking it or not, the article title is extremely misleading. You just can't title the article one thing and then right about another. The reliable sources are not about his views, they are about other people's view of him. His views (which is supposed to be the topic of the article) cannot be verified outside of a couple quotes where he says he is not a racist, everything else is just speculation about his views.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia's policies, it is perfectly legitimate to write an article about Donald Trump's racial views based on what reliable sources say about those views. You are free to not like that, but simply not liking it doesn't override our policies in a policy-based discussion. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- All of you missed my point entirely. You can't title an article "Racial views of Donald Trump" and then write about someone else's view of him rather than his own views. The title of this article is not "Accusations of Donald Trump holding racist views"--Rusf10 (talk) 04:43, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the opinions absolutely can be used as RS per policy, especially if they are published by well known authors and in reputable newspapers, such as NYT. In fact, they are not just expert opinions, but qualify as analyses on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 04:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - biased political opinions and allegation which are unsupported by any sense of logic - politicians gearing up for 2018 elections. Atsme📞📧 02:26, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep as a valid spinoff per Talk:Donald Trump#Racial views. Covering a notable critical view of a politician's statements does not violate NPOV. –dlthewave ☎ 03:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- delete or merge into immigration policy Trump related articles. The article title is POV and Trump denies he said it in a racist setting and tone. Pure POV -- delete. Octoberwoodland (talk) 04:54, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not POV, but anyway, "POV" is NOT, per policy a valid reason for deletion. And if you want to suggest a different title, please do.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would suggest the title change to Shitholegate since this is what the press is calling it now. Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- I could support that. At least the article title would match the subject of the article.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, this article would benefit by focusing on the shithole incident instead of trying to criticize stuff throughout Trump’s whole life. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:07, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- I could support that. At least the article title would match the subject of the article.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would suggest the title change to Shitholegate since this is what the press is calling it now. Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not POV, but anyway, "POV" is NOT, per policy a valid reason for deletion. And if you want to suggest a different title, please do.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- re-name to Shitholegate and delete the other material. In principle a general article about his views on race works, but not in practice (the opposite of Wikipedia which does not work in principle but works in practice). Consider the lead paragraph following the lead sentence. “In 1973, he was sued by the U.S. Department of Justice for housing discrimination against black renters.[5][6][7]”. No, the family business was sued, for allegedly discriminating, which they denied, and there was a settlement with no admission of wrongdoing, so the quoted sentence is very slanted. “In 2016, he was accused of racism for insisting in 1989, and maintaining as late as 2016, that a group of black and Latino teenagers were guilty of raping a white woman in the 1989 Central Park jogger case even after, in 2002, Matias Reyes, a serial rapist in prison, confessed to raping the jogger alone, and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt.[8][9][10]”. There had been a confession, perhaps coerced, by a guy Trump said was guilty, which is a huge fact in Trump’s favor that is omitted, plus what’s the race of Reyes, is he lily white? So again our sentence is slanted. And, our Wikipedia article about the case says, “Between 9 and 10 pm on the night of April 19, 1989, approximately 30 teenage perpetrators committed several attacks, assaults, and robberies in the northernmost part of Manhattan's Central Park” so why are we implying that only one man was involved? “In 2011, he became the leading proponent of the already discredited conspiracy theory that President Barack Obama was not born in the US, and he repeated the false claim for the next five years”. Trump’s main point was that Obama should release his birth certificate, and after Obama did so Trump and many millions of Americans looked at it and concluded Obama was eligible to the presidency. So the lead looks quite slanted to me, and omits anything that might lead a reader to think, hey, maybe he’s not a racist. I take no position about whether he is or not, but this BLP obviously takes a position and pushes it quite hard. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC) Edited.06:34, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - the very fact that people are even questioning the notability of this article pretty much puts the whole notion of "liberal bias" on Wikipedia to rest. If Wikipedia can't have an article on one of the most reported and commented aspects of a US presidency because it hurts some people's feelings, then we actually have the opposite problem.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep This all falls with in the guidelines of a WP:SIZESPLIT. Be it from the Trump article, Political positions of Donald Trump, or Immigration policy of Donald Trump. There's some editorializing that should probably be dealt with. At the very least a conversation should be opened about renaming as I don't feel this is a case for a common name under WP:POVNAME. This may also be the most NPOV name possible but thats a discussion for a talk page. I can't justify a deletion here. It doesn't seem to be a POVFORK.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:50, 16 January 2018 (UTC)