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:::The article mentions bullshido once, then it goes on to talk about how to spot people who are faking their credentials. Also the Charlotte Observer article (link [http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-147446010/man-lied-everything.html here]) says that Browning's investigation came out ''after'' Bannon had been arrested. And I'm not proving your case, the "I would not consider that independent" is my opinion and interpretation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. [[User:Kelapstick|kelapstick]] ([[User talk:Kelapstick|talk]]) 00:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
:::The article mentions bullshido once, then it goes on to talk about how to spot people who are faking their credentials. Also the Charlotte Observer article (link [http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-147446010/man-lied-everything.html here]) says that Browning's investigation came out ''after'' Bannon had been arrested. And I'm not proving your case, the "I would not consider that independent" is my opinion and interpretation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. [[User:Kelapstick|kelapstick]] ([[User talk:Kelapstick|talk]]) 00:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Right, it's a total coincidence that the author of the Bullshido article went on to write an article on exactly this subject at KFM. And talking about spotting fake credentials is talking about ''what Bullshido does.'' I don't think you are interpreting Wikipedia policy in a reasonable spirit. We'll see what the admins say. [[User:Cy Q. Faunce|Cy Q. Faunce]] ([[User talk:Cy Q. Faunce|talk]]) 00:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
::::Right, it's a total coincidence that the author of the Bullshido article went on to write an article on exactly this subject at KFM. And talking about spotting fake credentials is talking about ''what Bullshido does.'' I don't think you are interpreting Wikipedia policy in a reasonable spirit. We'll see what the admins say. [[User:Cy Q. Faunce|Cy Q. Faunce]] ([[User talk:Cy Q. Faunce|talk]]) 00:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::*'''Comment''' In a nutshell, here is the problem: Bullshido.net has a virtual monopoly on the talent pool of martial arts fraud investigators. Virtually evrey experienced person is a member of the site, and virtually every piece written on the subject by a 3rd party uses the site's invstigative journalism as it's primary source, and our people as consultants. I am, for example, a staff scientist for the site. I do digital image analysis, and specialize in the detection of fraudulent credentials. To my knowledge, there is no one else (outside of other Bullshido.net staff) who has more experience with this process than myself. (note: scientific expertise established here: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2007/042007/proteomics.shtml I am Phillips) folks voting "delete" see every attempt at establishing "notability" as circular because every person qualified in this field already works for the site. Any references offered will either have contributions from Bullshido.net membership or staff, or be "trivial" in nature in the sense that every single martial arts publication that exists is "trivial" by your definition. Fortunately for the martial arts, its relevance is determined by the public's engagement with the subject, and not by Wikipedia's editors.[[User:mthai66|mthai66]] ([[User talk:mthai66|talk]]) |
::*'''Comment''' In a nutshell, here is the problem: Bullshido.net has a virtual monopoly on the talent pool of martial arts fraud investigators. Virtually evrey experienced person is a member of the site, and virtually every piece written on the subject by a 3rd party uses the site's invstigative journalism as it's primary source, and our people as consultants. I am, for example, a staff scientist for the site. I do digital image analysis, and specialize in the detection of fraudulent credentials. To my knowledge, there is no one else (outside of other Bullshido.net staff) who has more experience with this process than myself. (note: scientific expertise established here: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2007/042007/proteomics.shtml I am Phillips) folks voting "delete" see every attempt at establishing "notability" as circular because every person qualified in this field already works for the site. Any references offered will either have contributions from Bullshido.net membership or staff, or be "trivial" in nature in the sense that every single martial arts publication that exists is "trivial" by your definition. Fortunately for the martial arts, its relevance is determined by the public's engagement with the subject, and not by Wikipedia's editors.[[User:mthai66|mthai66]] ([[User talk:mthai66|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.34.109.254|24.34.109.254]] ([[User talk:24.34.109.254|talk]]) 01:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Revision as of 01:09, 26 May 2010
Bullshido.net
- Bullshido.net (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Over seven months have passed since the closure of the previous AfD as no consensus. Because no sources have surfaced in that period of time, I have renominated Bullshido.net for deletion. I have asked the closing admins of both the previous AfD and the DRV for their opinion about renomination, and neither oppose it.
Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido (3rd nomination) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/McDojo (2nd nomination) for concurrent nominations about related topics that have the same issues.
The nominator of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) is correct when s/he said that the references in the article are not nontrivial, independent reliable sources that specifically discuss Bullshido.net. I have analyzed and listed the sources in the article as of this revision:
Analysis of the sources in the article
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1. This article from mat.uscombatsports.com mentions Bullshido.net in passing. The sole sentence in the article that pertains to Bullshido.net is: "Locked in the Cage on Saturday will be lawyer and active member of combat sports consumer advocacy group Bullshido.net Sam Browning, as well as returning friend of the show Matt “The Fight Nerd” Kaplowitz." Passing mentions do not establish notability; see also #2. 2. This article from Rocky Mountain News also mentions Bullshido.net in passing. The only time this website is referenced in this article is: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years. He dismisses Bannon's story as tortured fiction." This does gives no context about Bullshido.net, save that it is a website and a man named Browning has posted on it to debunk another man's story. 3. http://www.themartialist.com/bullshidofaq.htm is written by Phil Elmore, a man who has been attacked by Bullshido; Elmore writes "The Bullshido.com FAQ incorrectly describes Pax Baculum (and, I suppose, The Martialist and me) as somehow other than "up front about the evidence that exists today."" This is not an neutral article about Bullshido.net. Having read through the article, I have concluded that it is a attack on Bullshido.net. Furthermore and most importantly though, it has not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given. 4. http://web.petabox.bibalex.org/web/20060504091905/http://www.ashidakim.com/shitlist.html is the same as the fourth source. It was written by someone who has been attacked by Bullshido.net. It is a personal website by an individual called Ashida Kim (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashida Kim (7th nomination)) has also not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given. 5. This article from Rocky Mountain News does not even mention Bullshido.net. 6. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=28 – Bullshido.net is not a neutral, secondary reliable source for itself. 7. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/943mld/charlotte/14897513.htm – dead link to a passing mention; this article discusses the same topic as #2. 8. This article from Interpol.com does not even mention Bullshido.net. |
I have done much research about this website and have been unable to find any sufficient reliable sources about it. My searches included trawling through several pages of Google results, Google News Archive, Google Books, Google Scholar, and Yahoo!. If this site were truly notable as the above "keep" voters suggest, there should be sufficient sources about it. However, I have been unable to find any.
I am opposed to the merge to Bullshido suggested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) by the wub (talk · contribs). There are absolutely no reliable sources that discuss Bullshido.net. Even the passing mentions from reliable sources (see #1 and 2) do not provide enough context to justify a stub. Bullshido has also been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido (3rd nomination).
I am also opposed to a redirect to David "Race" Bannon. A member of Bullshido.net may have posted information about Bannon, but that does not guarantee that the website should be mentioned in Bannon's article. Having searched through results (using the search term "Banno bullshido.net"), I have been unable to locate any reliable sources that indicate that Bullshido.net played major role in debunking Bannon's claims. The best source about Bullshido.net and Banno that I could find was this article from Rocky Mountain News. The article states: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years." This passing mention that provides little context does not justify a redirect or a merge.
The "keep" votes in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) stated that "Bullshido is quite a notable organization within the martial arts community" and "one of the most notable martial arts web sites", but I have been unable to uncover anything to substantiate their claims.
This article should be deleted for failing a number of core Wikipedia policies and guidelines, namely Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Notability. Cunard (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
- Delete. At the risk of repeating myself, I am with Cunard again on this. No verifiable reliable meaningful references, no notability. How this keeps squeaking through is a mystery to me. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment This newspaper archive has 6 unique articles (related to debunking various claims). I think calling WP:OR might be a little overboard, there are a lot of uncited claims but the major ones hold up. Same thing can be said about most of the website articles on here (4chan, something awful, encyclopedia dramatica [which has an article on this website btw]). The only websites that tend to have regular press coverage are websites about the internet. Various niches have recognized major websites that get little coverage outside their respective communities. There is no good reliable guide to internet culture, but it's there. There are many references to it being in the top 4 martial arts websites based on traffic unfortunately I lost link in edit conflict.--Savonneux (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Here you go. It's second in the Martial Arts, with the first being a Mixed Martial Arts-specific site, making it the largest General site. --Phrost (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete, there's bits of evidence suggesting possible notability as Savonneux has pointed to - but there just isn't enough substantial coverage either to demonstrate notability, or actually write an appreciable article that's verifiable. We cannot write an article on a topic that hasn't seen substantial coverage in reliable sources without unavoidably performing blatant original research. ~ mazca talk 23:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Real Fighter and the TV feature from JOJ in Slovakia feature Bullshido.net centrally. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete mirroring my comment at the last AfD, Insignificant coverage in reliable sources + Significant coverage in unreliable sources ≠ passing the general notability guidelines. --kelapstick (talk) 23:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete, per my comment at the last AfD and Cunard's excellent and thorough nom. To the extent there is coverage in reliable sources, it's not significant; to the extent there is significant coverage in sources, they are not reliable. Tim Song (talk) 00:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete oh goodness, yet again. Per above, just not enough significant coverage to call it notable. Can we reach consensus this time? —fetch·comms 02:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete The subject doesn't seem to have significant coverage by multiple reliable sources as per WP:NOTE. Adambro (talk) 08:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Addition of another reference invalidates previous concerns. Arguments for deletion would apply even more strongly to other fora, as Savonneux has noted. Also, the analysis of reference 1 is misleading; the link includes a recording of a radio show in which Bullshido was significantly mentioned. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 09:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC) — Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- A recording where Bullshido.net was mentioned in a discussion about Sam Browning does not establish notability.
The reference you added is insufficient because it is not a third-party reliable source. The bottom of the page says, "Content (c) Bullshido. By submitting information you grant a license to Bullshido and/or Creative Combat to reproduce your statement or work." The second reference you added cannot be verified. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Bullshido was the central topic of a major segment of the show, as you would know if you had listened to it. Also, Sam Browning was not mentioned; he himself was a guest on the show.
The Geraci article was not intended as an external reference, but rather to establish a link between the Real Fighter article and Bullshido's work. Your objection is invalid.
As for the verifiability of the second reference, a trip to Barnes and Noble or an inquiry with the publisher would do wonders in that direction. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Bullshido was the central topic of a major segment of the show, as you would know if you had listened to it. Also, Sam Browning was not mentioned; he himself was a guest on the show.
- My argument in a nutshell:
- According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, sources should be "reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". The Stanford University Graduate School of Journalism article surely qualifies, especially since "[a]cademic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources where available". The TV spot and the Real Fighter article are also mainstream sources. All are independent of Bullshido.net. Verifiability is satisfied.
Note also that "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources". If you have a hard time getting a copy of Real Fighter, you should at least suspend judgment until you either acquire a copy or contact the publisher for details. If you argue that there is no time to do that, that is an argument for no consensus until the information can be processed, not for deletion. A rush to judgment serves no legitimate purpose.
- To satisfy Wikipedia:No_original_research, there are multiple citations. Even if a section lacks citations, that is an argument for improving the section or deleting only that section, not for throwing out the article.
- As for Wikipedia:Notability, the Real Fighter article, the TV spot on Channel JOJ, and the Stanford article all meet the criteria: coverage is significant -- indeed, focused on Bullshido.net; possess editorial integrity -- all have editorial oversight, one by a PhD in journalism; all are secondary sources; all are independent of the subject.
- According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, sources should be "reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". The Stanford University Graduate School of Journalism article surely qualifies, especially since "[a]cademic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources where available". The TV spot and the Real Fighter article are also mainstream sources. All are independent of Bullshido.net. Verifiability is satisfied.
- A recording where Bullshido.net was mentioned in a discussion about Sam Browning does not establish notability.
- Anyone who votes to delete without addressing this argument directly is either underinformed or had already made up their mind in advance, IMO,. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. I agree with Cunard wholeheartedly and have, since September 2009, consistently said this content needs to be removed from our encyclopaedia.—S Marshall T/C 12:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. No worthwhile references. By way of disclosure, I was invited to participate at this AFD by Cunard. Stifle (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. The references simply do not establish the topic as encyclopedic. jæs (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep The sourcing appears adequate to me; those who would expect a Wired feature on the website to establish notability do not convince me--being cited by multiple RS'es sufficiently meets the GNG. Jclemens (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- The GNG doesn't simply require brief mentions though, it requires "significant coverage in reliable sources". I don't think we have that here. Perhaps you could point out which you would feel could be described as reliable sources which have significant coverage of this subject? Adambro (talk) 20:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not a "brief mention", actually. Why do you claim that it is? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- The sources provided in this deletion discussion all either passing mentions or unreliable sources. Please point out the significant coverage in third-party reliable sources that you believe establish notability. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Asked and answered; indeed, you already responded to the Real Fighter citation, and thus cannot possibly have been unaware of it. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Additionally, there is now a reference in the article to an academic work which discusses a Bullshido investigation at length. This work was produced under the supervision of a professor of Stanford University's Graduate Program in Journalism. The author is not affiliated with Bullshido, and indeed expresses serious reservations about its methods, but the mention in a credible academic work from a major university is surely noteworthy. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The sources provided in this deletion discussion all either passing mentions or unreliable sources. Please point out the significant coverage in third-party reliable sources that you believe establish notability. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not a "brief mention", actually. Why do you claim that it is? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- The GNG doesn't simply require brief mentions though, it requires "significant coverage in reliable sources". I don't think we have that here. Perhaps you could point out which you would feel could be described as reliable sources which have significant coverage of this subject? Adambro (talk) 20:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep adequate coverage in WP:RS as appropriate for this niche subject (martial arts fora). JJL (talk) 00:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment (moved from deletion rationale) Reference to Real Fighter article added. This article discusses Bullshido's investigation of Khristian Geraci at length, including their role in halting Geraci's attempts at faking credentials. This establishes notability and is not original research. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment For those having trouble finding the Real Fighter article (which I purchased at B&N BTW) I have scanned and hosted a relevant portion of it at http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/mattcranky/Geraci.jpg and http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/mattcranky/Geraci2.jpg The article clearly states that the investigation at Bullshido.net was the central event in Mr Geraci's misdeeds coming to light in the press.mthai66 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC).
- Comment I can't find "real fighter magazine", anywhere. Not on Amazon (which has /most/ magazines), not on B&N, and most importantly not on Newsbank/JSTOR/Gale etc. Library doesnt have it. Cant find out who publishes it... There are 3000 year old books with better availability.
I really did try to find something before I posted my earlier comment (I've never heard of this place before) and it just falls a little bit shy of notability. Even if it was keep massive sections of the article would have to be excised because there isnt much secondary information available.--Savonneux (talk) 01:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I can't find "real fighter magazine", anywhere. Not on Amazon (which has /most/ magazines), not on B&N, and most importantly not on Newsbank/JSTOR/Gale etc. Library doesnt have it. Cant find out who publishes it... There are 3000 year old books with better availability.
- Comment Real Fighter Magazine: ISSN:1949-1069 mthai66 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.109.254 (talk) 20:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Without a copy of the article, it is difficult to comment about whether the coverage of Bullshido.net is nontrivial and neutral. However, I have done some research about the article and have concluded that it is not a neutral reliable source.
This thread from bullshido.net includes a snippet of the text, including "the amateur investigators at the debunking Bullshido.com ... sunk their skeptical teeth into his body of work like lions working a gazelle". The tone of the article while discussing a living person is not neutral.
The OP of the thread further writes, "Thanks to Stephen Koepfer, who wrote the original Geraci article on Bullshido and gave Feinman valuable assistance in writing his article for Real Fighter." The original article is here and is a wiki page. I have serious doubts about Real Fighter being a neutral, third-party reliable source on which the Wikipedia article must rely. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sacha Feinman is not a member of Bullshido. He gave appropriate recognition to Bullshido's efforts in debunking Khristian Geraci's claims. Bullshido received no money from Real Fighter and has no stake in its ownership. Figurative language is not in itself an indication of unreliability.
An argument for RF's non-neutrality or unreliability cannot be based strictly on the negative findings of a source whose previous actions strain Wikipedia:Assume good faith to its limit. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sacha Feinman is not a member of Bullshido. He gave appropriate recognition to Bullshido's efforts in debunking Khristian Geraci's claims. Bullshido received no money from Real Fighter and has no stake in its ownership. Figurative language is not in itself an indication of unreliability.
- Delete per nom, WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS, and WP:NOR. — Jeff G. ツ 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete impartial analysis of the sources does not sustain any reason to keep. I looked at this in depth for DRV several months ago, I easily spent an hour or more reading the sources trying to figure out how they related to this website and WP inclusion guides. We can go without an article here. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Comment Anyone passing judgment on the credibility and verifiability of the sources in the article should read its current version before drawing conclusions; two mentions in other media have been added, including an article in a nationally distributed magazine and an article from Stanford University's Graduate Program in Journalism. Additionally, those who have voted to delete should at least review those sources and reconsider their votes. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- And now there's a TV feature and an NBC Washington article in the mix. This is more real press coverage than most forums get, including those with Wikipedia entries. Those who argue that there are no notable media mentions must reconsider their votes at this time, and if they present no convincing argument for disregarding all of these mentions but do not change their vote, that would be telling, wouldn't it. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 17:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The NBC Washington article makes no mention of Bullshido.net. It says a lot about the video but nothing about the website only linking to it. I don't really consider that could be described as "significant coverage", to quote from WP:NOTE, which "means that sources address the subject directly in detail". The subject of this article is clearly the website Bullshido.net but the NBC article doesn't in my view "address the subject directly in detail". Adambro (talk) 17:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Any comment on the TV feature, the Stanford University article, and the Real Fighter article? The NBC Washington citation is just one part of the pattern. It's not huge, but it adds a bit to the evidence for notability, which at this point is so significant that anyone arguing against it should state their reasons. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've not commented on those because I have yet to review them. Adambro (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Until you do, you should probably change your vote to a comment or an abstention, IMO. That would be an encouraging sign of considering the issue on its merits. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 07:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- You seem quite keen to suggest that those who support this deletion nomination are not properly considering this issue. Whether that is true or not, and I've made it clear that I had yet to consider some of the new sources, it is unlikely to endear people to your cause, that you are so quick to suggest a hidden agenda or lack of proper consideration. I have now looked at the Stanford article and it does provide significant coverage of the subject. However, it isn't clear in what context it was written. I think it has been suggested that it will have been peer reviewed but how do we know that, for example? The TV feature also presents problems, not only is it not in a language I don't understand, but I also can't get a very good impression of the nature of the TV channel or the programme. That makes it hard for me to assess the TV feature as a source. As for the Real Fighter article, mthai66 has linked to the relevant sections and a few brief mentions is all Bullshido seems to get. Even without trying to assess Real Fighter magazine as a source, what we seem to have is brief mentions here and there in good, reliable sources, accompanied by more extensive coverage in more questionable sources. I'm still not overwhelming convinced that this subject has "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" as per the WP:GNG. Adambro (talk) 08:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources"; your reluctance to look into the provenance of the Treanor article and your issues with the Slovakian TV spot are already accounted for in policy, and are considered not to be blocking objections. At the very least you need more time to deal. As for the Real Fighter article, the mention of Bullshido is at the climax of the action, and it was instrumental in exposing the details of this story.
This article is better-sourced than almost anything else in its class, and any rush to judgment suggests that the real issue does not lie in the ostensible objections being offered. Deal with whatever this isn't about and make your case. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 08:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources"; your reluctance to look into the provenance of the Treanor article and your issues with the Slovakian TV spot are already accounted for in policy, and are considered not to be blocking objections. At the very least you need more time to deal. As for the Real Fighter article, the mention of Bullshido is at the climax of the action, and it was instrumental in exposing the details of this story.
- Alternatively, we could consider this a case where a nomination for deletion provided concerned individuals with a speedy kick in the pants and resulted in large improvements to the article's citations. Of course, such an argument must rest upon these improvements affecting the votes. Cy Q. Faunce (talk)
- Delete. Significant coverage is not there, and thus no notability, I'm afraid. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Article is reasonably detailed but some of the info is hard secondary source (it uses vbulletin where on earth could you get a 2ndary of that?) the OR/POV could be removed without butchering all useful info from the article, but people seem unwilling to compromise, or discuss it. --Natet/c 10:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- On another note the action shortly after the last AfD of removing all content and redirecting to an article that doesn't mention the site in the text delete screams "keep nomination till it gets deleted". Some sort of constructive criticism on what needed work and sources that might be acceptable to the proposers as sufficient would have been welcomed but the attitude drains any enthusiasm to improve an article they won't let stay but just keep truncating and nominating. I realise this seems jaded but having been on the other side trying to engage with editors and say "you need to do x, y & z to fix it" generally has better results than "it sucks I'll nominate it, oh it was kept lets ty again, Grr they out argued me I'll ignore it for 6 months then nominate it again". /rant This is an exaggerated characterisation, but does some up the feelings of myself and some editors involved. --Natet/c 10:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete The sources are too weak for an actual article. Non-verifiable works, passing mention in marginally notable publications, and a graduate student's project just don't meet the requirements for notability or verifiability. Personally speaking, after having run into a number of these people at the now-deleted Jesus Taught Me article (formerly an even worse BLP nightmare called Bobby Joe Blythe), these people are prone to self-promotion and creating BLP-violating articles. We do not need to encourage them. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 15:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- sorry but with "these people" are you referring to me, and every other editor who expressed a "keep" opinion on mass? Either way it seams to be an assumption of bad faith on th motives of all. --Natet/c 13:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why are you assuming I'm referring to such a broad group when I've already clarified exactly what behavior I was referring to below a day before? Let me repeat and condense: I'm talking about Bullshido members coming here solely to vote 'keep' on their projects (I see two more just showed up [2] [3]), create BLP-violating articles, and insert links to their site against policy. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 14:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- This argument rests on an ad hominem attack against those who disagree with you. Also, an article produced under the supervision of a professor of journalism at Stanford, and held to strict journalistic standards, is not just some random grad student's project. As for "marginally notable publications", can you support that characterization with actual citations? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- You are misusing the term ad hominem. My comments were regarding my experience of members' behavior here on WP, which is relevant because I believe it's why the article exists at all, and why it manages to keep squeaking by AfD. I have had to argue circularly against an editor/Bullshido member trying to insert a BLP-violating link to that site in a now-deleted article. Their responses were continually WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT until an RFC brought in outside editors who all agreed it was not appropriate (I would link to it but the page is gone). So, personally speaking, I am not impressed with the tendency for Bullshido members to self-promote their site while simultaneously ignoring BLP and sourcing policy, nor the tendency for editors to suddenly appear and vote "keep" on Bullshido projects [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
- Nevertheless, my argument does not "rest" on the above. The article is extremely short on reliable sources, as I said from the outset. Passing mention in regional newspapers (Rocky Mountain News and Charlotte Observer) and a specialty news site of questionable reliability (uscombatsports.com) do not meet notability nor sourcing requirements. The student project is the closest thing, but it's still a student project, and does not establish notability. It might be barely passable as a source if it was already determined to be notable, but right now it's the one and only source that isn't self-published or only mentions Bullshido in passing, and it's, at best, equivalent to a local news article, and not national-level news. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 20:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your list of sources does not include any of the recent edits to the article, and suggests that you are underinformed. Please review the recent changes and explain why they do not meet criteria. As for misusing "ad hominem", I don't agree, but perhaps there is another term for the fallacy whereby one implements policies not because they make sense, but to punish some class of people whose feelings would be hurt by them. Bad policy either way. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- As usual, the Real Fighter magazine article does not appear to be about Bullshido.com, based on the article summary from their website. Unless someone has access to the magazine and can give quotes, this appears to invalidate the article as an indicator of notability:
- The Con Artist
- BY SACHA FEINMAN
- With UFC fights a PPV juggernaut, and MMA studios and dojos proliferating, everyone wants to get in on the act. And sometimes it is an act. Meet the new wave of mixed martial BS artist, as epitomized by the tall tales of one Khristian Geraci, whose peculiar relationship to reality creates quite a mess.
- As far as the foreign TV show, it's difficult to say what weight to give it. It appears to be a show specializing in weird news, but I don't see anything indicating it's significant news, much less usable as a source. I remain convinced the article should be deleted at this time. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 14:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Foreign to where? I thought WP was an international effort? you may wish to read WP:systemic bias --Natet/c 16:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh please, now you're just stretching for an excuse. I just mentioned that it's foreign as an identification. The point is, after quite a bit of searching, I could find nothing to indicate it's a significant show, so it could be a small, possibly regional show. Without something to tell us what it is, that's the best information we have. Either way, without a translation of the show, it doesn't help us as a source, which is what the article is seriously lacking. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- As to not being about Bullshido, you've read a summary, I haven't got acces to ther article either but could you explain how you can know it doesn't mention (possibly at length) to the Bullshido investigation here? It's not provable either way unless we can sd,e the full article so give the person who added it the benefit of the doubt and stop tying to lazily discredit sources that might undermine your view.--Natet/c 16:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Given the history of Bullshido members using articles with one word mentions or less, I think there's good reason to doubt the article's validity as an indicator of notability. In a recent example, a local news article linked to their site as a place to view a video. It does not name Bullshido or make any reference to it, yet they tried to use the article as a source [9]. The evidence points to the article not being about Bullshido, and the history of exaggerated sources gives good reason to question it as indicating notability. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Again, good policy is not about punishing some class of people or violating WP:AGF. It's about improving Wikipedia. If you are actually interested in evaluating this question, instead of using it as an excuse to rush to judgment, I can probably quote a translation. However, you could then assert that I am impossibly biased and therefore mistranslating...ugh. Look, either propose a way to resolve this impasse or change your vote to reflect your lack of information. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Given the history of Bullshido members using articles with one word mentions or less, I think there's good reason to doubt the article's validity as an indicator of notability. In a recent example, a local news article linked to their site as a place to view a video. It does not name Bullshido or make any reference to it, yet they tried to use the article as a source [9]. The evidence points to the article not being about Bullshido, and the history of exaggerated sources gives good reason to question it as indicating notability. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Foreign to where? I thought WP was an international effort? you may wish to read WP:systemic bias --Natet/c 16:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your list of sources does not include any of the recent edits to the article, and suggests that you are underinformed. Please review the recent changes and explain why they do not meet criteria. As for misusing "ad hominem", I don't agree, but perhaps there is another term for the fallacy whereby one implements policies not because they make sense, but to punish some class of people whose feelings would be hurt by them. Bad policy either way. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete for all the reasons set forth in Cunard's excellent nomination. When I nominated this article for deletion a while back, I looked for non-trivial reliable sources, and they weren't there. Apparently they still aren't, and therefore this article violates WP:V as well as WP:NOTE. *** Crotalus *** 17:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Cunard's nomination does not account for recent additions to the article. Please state why those changes should not affect the vote. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I reviewed the article just now and I still do not see adequate sourcing. It's not enough to say that someone, somewhere, may have published something that qualifies as a reliable source; the article must actually reflect such sources. It's been years, and the basic criterion of verifiability is still not adequately met. *** Crotalus *** 18:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- "May have"? Almost all of these cites link you to the places where the items were published. The single exception is Real Fighter magazine, which does not place its content online. What do you suggest we do? Pretend this magazine doesn't exist? Even if it didn't, the TV spot and the Stanford article more than meet the criteria. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep* This is ridiculous. The sources are more than sufficient, except through the disingenuously skewed perspectives of those who have an agenda against the site. The site was a subject of a Stanford journalist's analysis, referenced by media specific to the Martial Arts industry, and its community is comprised of nearly 100,000 members on 5 continents. One of the site's meetup events was even covered by the television news in Bratislava. --Phrost (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which is why I went back and made sure my comments were signed, after they originally only showed up with my IP address. Which I could have easily avoided doing since I don't believe I've ever contributed to Wikipedia through this connection. Now if only some of the other people here were so forthcoming with their own agendas (such as being noted for deleting as many articles as possible, Cunard). --Phrost (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will say for Cunard, he has notified peopel event if his source review is subjective, on a previous occasion and editor complained that it was listed on the meartial arts related deltions becase it attracted ther wrong type of attention (i.e. "keep" options)
- Which is why I went back and made sure my comments were signed, after they originally only showed up with my IP address. Which I could have easily avoided doing since I don't believe I've ever contributed to Wikipedia through this connection. Now if only some of the other people here were so forthcoming with their own agendas (such as being noted for deleting as many articles as possible, Cunard). --Phrost (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep This seems a bit rediculous, at the 4th attempt to get rid of this page. There are refences, with new ones added recently. The argument that are not good enough unfortunately could be applied to a number of Wiki articles about fora. Are you going to apply the same delete criteria to them? Onesti (talk) 18:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The answer to that question is yes. Please nominate such articles for deletion. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a poor reason for keeping anything. Adambro (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment even more sources references to Bullshido.net, all from from the New York Examiner's MMA column. But feel free to dismiss these, since they conflict with your agenda Cunard.
www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m8d10-New-York-Bullshido-Throwdown
www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m12d23-New-York-Holiday-Throwdown-slideshow-and-review
www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m7d11-Invitation-to-New-York-Throwdown
www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m7d27-MMA-101-what-do-MMA-terms-mean-Part-2 --Phrost (talk) 18:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Examiner.com is not at all the New York Examiner, it's a website that allows anyone to write on it and pays them for it too. It fails WP:RS. Stifle (talk) 18:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I am lightly monitoring this AFD to see what's up with up and I have to agree that examiner.com almost never flies in any AfD.--Milowent (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd echo the above comments. My understanding is that examiner.com contains much user-generated content and isn't subject to adequate editorial controls therefore is widely considered on Wikipedia not to be a reliable source. Hence why it is blacklisted. Adambro (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Wasn't aware that Examiner.com was "blacklisted", consider those retracted. Regardless, more than sufficient references now exist. If Cunard's agenda is truly to improve the article as opposed to getting it deleted (the latter of which seems to be the case based on his emphatic pursuit of such), then there really isn't much more to discuss here, and the article should stay. --Phrost (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Implying that Cunard has some kind of hidden agenda only highlights the fact that you have a very obvious one. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 20:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I assumed that my agenda didn't need any clarification; it's obvious that I believe the result of the voting should be Keep. I don't think Cunard's agenda is hidden; it's simple to identify on his talk page. I'd just like him to state it for the record, especially now that the article has more than sufficient references, including coverage of the website by a European TV station's news program. --Phrost (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article has ample sourcing outside of Examiner.com. This discussion is inflating a minor issue and failing to address larger concerns. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Implying that Cunard has some kind of hidden agenda only highlights the fact that you have a very obvious one. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 20:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete unless reliable secondary sources are found.Dwanyewest (talk) 00:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- As with others who have taken this stance, I invite you to explain why Real Fighter, channel JOJ, and an article from the Stanford University Graduate Program in Journalism are not reliable secondary sources. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- As with others who have taken this stance, I invite you to explain why Real Fighter, channel JOJ, and an article from the Stanford University Graduate Program in Journalism are not reliable secondary sources. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Feh. A cut and paste? If you're going to ask the same question over and over, at least individualise it. Some of us like to feel special. Crafty (talk) 03:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Make a novel error and you'll get a novel response. Screw up in the same way everyone else does, you get lumped in. Think of it as reuse if it makes you feel better.
Now, do you plan to address the point? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Have you considered a laxative? Might loosen you up some. Crafty (talk) 12:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- @Crafty- You may wish to read WP:NPA agian, as this kind of comment is not helpful however much you dissagree with someone. --Natet/c 14:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Have you considered withdrawing your vote until you actually address the relevant issues? Might make you look less like yet another agenda-driven editor with a grudge. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- That editors are not swayed by a non-neutral unreliable source, the project of a college student, and a local news report about an event is evident. Most of the content was written by Scb steve (talk · contribs), who states on his userpage that he is "the designated representative for Bullshido.net". The long history of promotion dating back to the article's inception and continuing today with single-purpose accounts and the founder of the website supporting its retention is also evident. That accusations of bad faith and of a hidden agenda, as well as WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments, are being made point strongly to this website's lack of notability. Cunard (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at he history it seems I have around 22% of the edits over double that of any other single user, I assume this means I am a have a single purpose account? If you feel able to question keep comments , questions on Deletes are not unreasonable. Steve's nomination as a representative was aimed at Bullshido, to avoid a rush of over enthusiastic wiki newbies from putting to much POV into the article after initial issues, many of which were fixed on discussion with Steve and others.--Natet/c 17:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- You have not demonstrated that Real Fighter is non-neutral or unreliable. Treanor's article is not "the project of a college student"; it is a product of Stanford's Graduate Program in Journalism, and was produced to journalistic standards under the supervision of a professor of journalism. As for the local news report, that alone is more than sufficient to meet notability.
Rather than mischaracterize existing citations, maybe you could explain what would meet notability criteria, and include examples from previous deletion discussions. As it is, it is impossible to distinguish your actions from those of an impossibly biased person who is pursuing an agenda that has nothing to do with improving Wikipedia. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Have you considered a laxative? Might loosen you up some. Crafty (talk) 12:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Make a novel error and you'll get a novel response. Screw up in the same way everyone else does, you get lumped in. Think of it as reuse if it makes you feel better.
- Feh. A cut and paste? If you're going to ask the same question over and over, at least individualise it. Some of us like to feel special. Crafty (talk) 03:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Wikipedia also has an entry for Sherdog. Their entry is supported by mentions in three newspaper articles. In each such article, Sherdog is mentioned because one of it's officers provides a short quote of 1-2 sentences concerning the MMA world. Sherdog is not even the subject of an individual article such as the previously referred to magazine article written by the Stanford University Master's Candidate. I am not arguing for the deletion of the Sherdog entry, I am only pointing out, that unless Wikipedia decides to generally not have articles on internet bulletin boards, mentions of a particular electronic bulletin board, in the traditional media, are usually going to be in passing. It is my argument that six or so such mentions should provide enough verification of notability to keep the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Law boi99 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC) — Law boi99 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Provided sources are adequate in regards to Wikipedia:Verifiability, especially considering that Bullshido.net is well-known in the martial arts community and provides a service to that niche industry (consumer awareness). Coverage in a nationally published magazine (Real Fighter) as well as a feature on European television are more than enough considering the size of the associated industry. Darkening (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC) — Darkening (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- WP:N and WP:RS are not sliding scale policies, the threshold for inclusion is not adjusted based on the size of the market the subject draws from.--kelapstick (talk) 15:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I see no specific exclusions in WP:N and WP:RS which would prevent the consideration of market size when looking at the number of notable references. The threshold to notability has already been crossed with the above-mentioned magazine, television, and news reports. The fact that the martial arts industry as a whole is not well-represented in notable references would even further suggest that 2 or more notable references is more than enough for notability. Darkening (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC).
- Delete - fails to muster up the substantial coverage in reliable sources that is required. The long history of COI edits, canvassing, s.p.a. involvement, etc., is sad but irrelevant to the simple continuing failure of this article to meet our standards. Arguments for retention boil down to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and exaggeration of the importance of the few mentions that have been found. As for examiner.com content: the less said, the better. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment On the Source analysis on 1, 2 & 7 Browning was investigating these in part on behalf of bullshido, and with the support of BS forum members. On 3 & 4 the wiordin of the analysis is designed to reflect badly on BS, I agree they are reactions investigations and comments should be viewd as such, but does this mean they should be labelled as "attacks"? 8 & 5 are both valid sources for what they cite and relate to events triggered by Bullshido's actions so have some merit. --Natet/c 17:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Synthesis. There is no reliable source that Bullshido was significant to the investigations mentioned in sources 2, 5, 7, and 8. It's either a passing mention or none at all. Sources 3 and 4 are still not reliable either way, and definitely do not indicate notability, as they are self-published. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete the nominator's analysis of the sources cited in the article shows that the subject does not pass the criteria of significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Given the sheer amount of discussion about this subject's notability, if there actually is any appropriate sourcing it almost certainly would have been found by now and added to the article. Hut 8.5 21:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion is largely about the fact that such sourcing has been added to the article. You might want to read the details. They matter. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment There is now a reference to an article in Kung Fu Magazine's e-zine. This article was produced under contract; it was edited by Gene Ching and its author was paid. If that does not satisfy notability and verifiability, I have no idea what does. Certainly none of the votes to delete have made any specific mention of what would suffice. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- That article (link here) is actually about David "Race" Bannon, not bullshido.net, and does not qualify as "significant coverage" of bullshido.net. Also the article was written by Samuel Browning (as stated in the byline under the title), I would not consider that independent.--kelapstick (talk) 23:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article contains significant mentions of the Bullshido investigation of Bannon; in fact, it is largely a summary of that article. Also, you're shooting your own argument in the foot if you argue that we are not notable because our writers are solicited to produce articles under contract about our activities. Thanks for proving my case. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article mentions bullshido once, then it goes on to talk about how to spot people who are faking their credentials. Also the Charlotte Observer article (link here) says that Browning's investigation came out after Bannon had been arrested. And I'm not proving your case, the "I would not consider that independent" is my opinion and interpretation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. kelapstick (talk) 00:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Right, it's a total coincidence that the author of the Bullshido article went on to write an article on exactly this subject at KFM. And talking about spotting fake credentials is talking about what Bullshido does. I don't think you are interpreting Wikipedia policy in a reasonable spirit. We'll see what the admins say. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment In a nutshell, here is the problem: Bullshido.net has a virtual monopoly on the talent pool of martial arts fraud investigators. Virtually evrey experienced person is a member of the site, and virtually every piece written on the subject by a 3rd party uses the site's invstigative journalism as it's primary source, and our people as consultants. I am, for example, a staff scientist for the site. I do digital image analysis, and specialize in the detection of fraudulent credentials. To my knowledge, there is no one else (outside of other Bullshido.net staff) who has more experience with this process than myself. (note: scientific expertise established here: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2007/042007/proteomics.shtml I am Phillips) folks voting "delete" see every attempt at establishing "notability" as circular because every person qualified in this field already works for the site. Any references offered will either have contributions from Bullshido.net membership or staff, or be "trivial" in nature in the sense that every single martial arts publication that exists is "trivial" by your definition. Fortunately for the martial arts, its relevance is determined by the public's engagement with the subject, and not by Wikipedia's editors.mthai66 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.109.254 (talk) 01:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article mentions bullshido once, then it goes on to talk about how to spot people who are faking their credentials. Also the Charlotte Observer article (link here) says that Browning's investigation came out after Bannon had been arrested. And I'm not proving your case, the "I would not consider that independent" is my opinion and interpretation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. kelapstick (talk) 00:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article contains significant mentions of the Bullshido investigation of Bannon; in fact, it is largely a summary of that article. Also, you're shooting your own argument in the foot if you argue that we are not notable because our writers are solicited to produce articles under contract about our activities. Thanks for proving my case. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)