Kanatonian (talk | contribs) reply |
reply to wikrama |
||
Line 40: | Line 40: | ||
:Please read [[WP:NPA]], it is one thing vote in an AFD but dont forget your [[WP:CIVIL]]ilty along the way. Thanks [[User:Taprobanus|Taprobanus]] 13:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
:Please read [[WP:NPA]], it is one thing vote in an AFD but dont forget your [[WP:CIVIL]]ilty along the way. Thanks [[User:Taprobanus|Taprobanus]] 13:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
||
::here we have some one who probably have violated tons of wikipedians policies, including the same ones he mentions above ,talking about civility. As long as you violate [[WP:COI]] i will not hesitate not mention it. Even if your friends come and block me again. And really thanks for that joke you made at the pawn farm discussion page. Actually I couldn't stop laughing for a while seeing how good you are in your Sinhalese. reminds me my old friend, wikrama, wonder what he is doing now..any idea ?? [[User:Iwazaki|<font color="blue">'''Iwazaki '''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iwazaki| <font color="red">会話。討論</font>]]</sup> 17:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC) |
|||
*'''Merge''' with [[Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War]] or '''move''' to less of a troll-magnet of a title. Don't burden Afd with obvious redirect/merge/move candidates such as this. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 09:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Merge''' with [[Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War]] or '''move''' to less of a troll-magnet of a title. Don't burden Afd with obvious redirect/merge/move candidates such as this. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 09:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:42, 18 September 2007
Assassinations and murders attributed to the LTTE
- Assassinations and murders attributed to the LTTE (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
As the author of this article, I can say that this has long since ceased to fulfill the requirements WP:LIST and is currently a POV fork of Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War with a neutral title. This is also a violation of WP:SYN Taprobanus 19:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Delete This article is a POV fork that covers assanation by one side and not all the sides of the conflict. There is another article,Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War, that covers everything on this list. Also per nom. Watchdogb 21:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is a sub article of LTTE, containing the names of all people assassinated by the LTTE. Listing them all at LTTE#Assassinations would largely clutter the main article, which is already 71KB. Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War contains people who have nothing to do with the LTTE. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Read WP:SIZE, we have over 70,000 people dead in Sri Lanka either killed by the government of Sri Lanka or its minions or the LTTE. Are we going to add everybody allegedly killed by the LTTE in this list? Currently the list looks like one as long as a source (never mind relibale) says that the LTTE did, it has been attached to this list. Remember we are trying to create an encylopedia not a propaganda list, for that we have lists made by the South Asia Terrorism Portal (a biased source) and Defence department of Sri Lanka (another biased source). That's why reasonable people decided to create an article called Notable assasinations and because just two people refused one editor suggested it be put in AFD. Notable assasinations will at some point include ONLY notable people killed in the Sri lankan civil war not the 70,000 or anybodies wishlist. Thanks Taprobanus 18:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Does it look to you like there are 70,000 people listed here? Has anyone tried listing the names of 70,000 people in this article? Are there people listed here who had nothing notable about them apart from the fact that they were killed by the LTTE? The rest of your comment makes little sense ("Currently the list looks like one as long as a source"???) so I'm don't really know how to reply to it. I'll just say, the article title doesn't have to include the word "notable" to prevent needless trivial information included in it. It is a basic principle of Wikipedia that only notable facts are included in articles. An article about Sri Lanka isn't titled Notable facts about Sri Lanka, an article about the 9/11 attacks isn't Notable facts about the September 11th attacks. That just goes without saying. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 16:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Read WP:SIZE, we have over 70,000 people dead in Sri Lanka either killed by the government of Sri Lanka or its minions or the LTTE. Are we going to add everybody allegedly killed by the LTTE in this list? Currently the list looks like one as long as a source (never mind relibale) says that the LTTE did, it has been attached to this list. Remember we are trying to create an encylopedia not a propaganda list, for that we have lists made by the South Asia Terrorism Portal (a biased source) and Defence department of Sri Lanka (another biased source). That's why reasonable people decided to create an article called Notable assasinations and because just two people refused one editor suggested it be put in AFD. Notable assasinations will at some point include ONLY notable people killed in the Sri lankan civil war not the 70,000 or anybodies wishlist. Thanks Taprobanus 18:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is a sub article of LTTE, containing the names of all people assassinated by the LTTE. Listing them all at LTTE#Assassinations would largely clutter the main article, which is already 71KB. Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War contains people who have nothing to do with the LTTE. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete as per the author of the article further it is WP:OR as none of the killings have been investigated independently further People associated with such killings like Karuna are not being persecuted by the Sri Lankan government.It is a clear POV fork.Pharaoh of the Wizards 21:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. Well sourced, accurate and verifiable article. It is currently used as the main article for the assassinations section of the LTTE article, in line with other similar pages created to reduce the size of the LTTE article. The LTTE article is currently is 71KB. Moving this stuff back wouldn't make sense and will violate article size policy.
- I don't see how this violates WP:SYN. There are no cases where, for example, a source which says "xyz was killed ... the LTTE was active in the area" was contorted in the article to say "therefore the LTTE killed him". All sources directly attribute the murders to the LTTE. The nominator hasn't mentioned what parts of WP:LIST it violates.
- And note, who the original creator of this article was has no relevance to this AFD. The article has been improved much from the initial, racist if I must add, version.[1] (Taprobanus originally tried to limit the article to list only people of the Sri Lankan Tamils race who were killed by the LTTE).
- It is also interesting to note, the "POV fork" (i.e. this article) was created 6 months before the notable assassinations article, which has a lot of disputed claims and is far from being a good article. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 22:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ignoring the personal attacks in violation of WP:NPA, this is a WP:LIST that masquerades as an article. The list has long since outlived lists cardinals reasons for existence, that is as a development reminder to readers to develop red linked articles. Every notable person in this article now has their own article mostly developed. Further the title attributed does not sound very encyclopedic, it indicates that all the accusations are just that accusations not for sure, hence it has become a magnet for people to attach anyone killed in Sri Lanka to this list. But we know Sri Lanka is a Killing field. But we have another problem, this list fails in the title WP:NPOV completely. Hence many neutral Wikipedians in the past tried to create anew more neutral title and worked on it diligently see here, here and here. It was opposed by just few people. It was suggested that an AFD will solve the impasse, hence this AFD. (see below the quote) Taprobanus 13:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Since this is not an official mediation, and since the three opposing editors have not applied for WP:SLR membership, I have no mandate or obligation to represent them. Nevertheless, I want to regard their needs. The fact that we see some unconvincing arguments could indicate that there are other, unexpressed, needs which the "... LTTE" article satisfies. If that is the case, then there could be more at stake than just a harmless redirect. If that is the case, then I recommend bringing it up on WP:AFD." — Sebastian 19:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- If you think I personally attacked you, why not report me at WP:AN/I?
- "as a development reminder to readers to develop red linked articles."
- A good dose of reading WP:LIST may be in order here. Among the first few sentences, "The list may be a valuable information source". This one is. Like I said, please don't try to bring up ownership of articles. What reason you created it for has no bearing on this AFD.
- "the title attributed does not sound very encyclopedic"
- The criteria of inclusion of content on Wikipedia is verifiability. All cases here have verifiable been linked to the LTTE by reliable sources. In fact, the term "attributed" in the title makes it as neutral as could be, as opposed to a title in the order of Assassinations and murders carried out by the LTTE.
- "a magnet for people to attach anyone killed in Sri Lanka to this list"
- I find that a blatantly untrue comment, which you should withdraw unless you can back it up with evidence. Which random person killed in Sri Lanka was added to this list?
- "this list fails in the title WP:NPOV completely"
- This is an article broken off from the main LTTE article due to size constraints. That is a universally accepted Wiki procedure. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 18:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you think I personally attacked you, why not report me at WP:AN/I?
- Strong Keep. This is a through documentation on actual facts on LTTE. This article has been in Wiki for a longer time. The person who suggested this article to be removed, Taprobanus, has created another article with the same facts from this article. Now he wants to promote his article by deleting this detailed piece of work. None of the facts mentioned in this article cannot be argued agaisnt. This is article about LTTE and its activities and it should be here for users information. Actual facts are presented here.Supermod 02:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- I did the original thorough documentation but under a non neutral tile, after my initial work may be a few more references that too many non WP:RS has been added further I did not create the other more neutral article. It was created by a another wikipedian (see here). Please have you facts before accusing others of bad faith. Do read WP:AGF. Thanks Taprobanus 13:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep Bad faith nomination. As me and many of other fellow wikipedians know already, nominator is a heavy contributor to racist tamil web-sites and I wonder whether he has any ethics to question the nuetrality of this article. Article give ample information about LTTE's criminal activities and its not surprising that some poeple take this personally and want to get rid of these TRUTHs. Let truth prevail again ,this time .Iwazaki 会話。討論 04:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please read WP:NPA, it is one thing vote in an AFD but dont forget your WP:CIVILilty along the way. Thanks Taprobanus 13:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- here we have some one who probably have violated tons of wikipedians policies, including the same ones he mentions above ,talking about civility. As long as you violate WP:COI i will not hesitate not mention it. Even if your friends come and block me again. And really thanks for that joke you made at the pawn farm discussion page. Actually I couldn't stop laughing for a while seeing how good you are in your Sinhalese. reminds me my old friend, wikrama, wonder what he is doing now..any idea ?? Iwazaki 会話。討論 17:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Merge with Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War or move to less of a troll-magnet of a title. Don't burden Afd with obvious redirect/merge/move candidates such as this. --dab (𒁳) 09:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dab please see here and here we tried to merge to a neutral title but few people objected and some suggested that the only way to resolve it is through an AFD this this AFD. Thanks Taprobanus 12:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Merging with the notable assassinations article will not work, as the primary use of this article is as a sub-article of the LTTE page. Using the notable assassinations article as the sub-article instead will not make sense, as some of the people mentioned there have nothing to do with the LTTE. Any suggestions about a less troll magnet title? Since all the entries included here are attributed by reliable sources to the LTTE, like I said about, I would think it's probably the most NPOV title we could have, rather that a title like Assassinations carried out by the LLTE. --snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 18:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- There are clever ways around it by creating a subsection under the Notable assassinations attributed to the LTTE and making that the main link article on main article about the LTTE under assassinations section or create a redirect for Assassinations carried out by the LTTE to the Notable assasinations article and make the Assassinations carried out by the LTTE as the main link for the LTTE main article under assasinations section. Thanks Taprobanus 16:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletions. —--♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ walkie-talkie 10:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep: Assassinations and murders attributed to the LTTE is attributed assassinations which may not be established, whereas Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War contains well established and somewhat investigated assassinations. NëŧΜǒńğerPeace Talks 11:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- P.S in case both the articles are containing the same we have to segregate established and attributed assassinations into these two articles. NëŧΜǒńğerPeace Talks 11:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Netmonger you are the one who suggested that this title is not neutral and should be re directed to another more neutral tile and you even agreed and voted with many neutral wikipedians in the vote. See here Then how can you vote to keep it now? Thanks Taprobanus 12:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- That's true, I made the mistake when I created it a year ago, it has to go. It is not encyclopedic Taprobanus 15:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well opinions change overtime don't they Raveen? NëŧΜǒńğerPeace Talks 06:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well I don’t know who Raveen is but I can tell you with time I am more aware of Wikipedia rules not just opinions. My opinion has always been that LTTE has killed scores of innocent civilians including Tamils . It has killed notable Tamils too who may require an entry in Wikipedia such as Chelvy Thiyagarajah, Relangi Selvarajah and others and we have created articles on them. But this article as it stands is a crap magnet that becomes an endless list of all non notable assassinations in Sri Lanka that some biased source thinks can be pinned on the LTTE. The South Asian Terrorism portal lists Nadarajah Raviraj as categorically killed by the LTTE. Now that is a blatant attempt at trying get the real culprits go. That source has become the bedrock of this article. That un reliable source to go from Wikipedia and this article has to be merged per User:Dab Taprobanus 13:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete Even if well documented, this is a strange article that could set potentially volatile precedents for other topics, not worth the trouble--Kathanar 12:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Were parts of this article merged into the "Notable assassinations" article? If so, per the GFDL, someone would either have to do a history merge or the article would need to be redirected to preserve the contributions history. – Black Falcon (Talk) 18:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- The entire article was merged into "Notable assassinations" article per talk discussion. Thanks Taprobanus 20:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Real surprizing to see this article facing AFD. I see no reason why this article should be deleted. "POV Fork" funda given in the nom really doesn't make sense, for the obvious reason explained above by SnowolfD4. - KNM Talk 05:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong delete There is already an entry Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War where this can be included. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 13:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Merge. As per Black Falcon if the parts of this article is merged into the "Notable assassinations" article, then either the history merge or redirection to preserve the contributions history, should be done.Lustead 15:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. This article is verifiable and it is in line with Wikipedia policies and also it is referring to the sub topic of the Sri Lankan civil war. The details are supported with citations from Reliable Sources (RS). The format of the article also as per common Wikipedia style. I am surprised about the nomination of this article for deletion, because the things already happened and it has legal proof on the details. The country like India has conduct an investigation about the murder of former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and legally proved that the LTTE is responsible for the murder (this one also to be added into the article). The other important fact is the number of people murdered by the LTTE is very high in number and this article is classified the victims into groups such as "State Leaders", "Journalists" as per the Wikipedia style of formatting. --Lanka07 15:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - The article cites many references for details listed. Certainly the article is encyclopedic and informative. The article is not WP:LIST as accused in the nom. Gnanapiti 17:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Well cited.Dineshkannambadi 22:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your compliments, I cited 90% of them but that is not the point. The point is the consensus on the talk page was to redirect to Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War but because of the holdout of few this AFD. Just like you observed here, that article too is well sourced but is balanced in its title per WP:NPOV and content. We list all WP:NOTABLE assassinations during the Sri Lankan civil war done by all parties. This is become a WP:LIST of every body dead is Sri Lanka that is attributable to the LTTE by any source and most of them are biased sources such as the Defense department of Sri Lanka and South Asia Portal for Terrorism. Hence this situation is untenable. Thanks Taprobanus 13:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Section break
- Strong Keep - I am not at all surprised that some individuals with a POV want to delete this article. But the article sites facts, or at worst strongly supported indictments, as well as cases established by judical inquiry (as is the case of rajeev Gandhi). A lot of people would find this article a valuable source, and they can use their independent judgements regarding the validity of the material. This article has to be in an on-line encyclopeda like Wiki.Bodhi dhana 01:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep/Rename - The content no doubt is relevant and deserves a page. The title is unwieldy. However there also needs to be a relevant page for the Lankan government, its not like they dont have blood on their hands.Bakaman 05:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- We already have a neutral title article that was developed per discussion, it is called Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War. That artcle is a exact copy ofthsi plus more. So we have two articles dealing with the same subject. One with a crappy title and prone to reflect Wikipedia in a bad light and the other written per WP:NOTABLE and WP:NPOVand WP:RS rules including the title. This needs to be merged with the other and the title deleted. That was the concensus of most who participated in the talk page discussion. Taprobanus 12:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Any suggestions on a rename Bakaman? And there already was a page about the Sri Lankan government. It contained zero entries and was deleted, if I recall right, following a expired prod. Not exactly sure what the article name was, but Assassinations attributed to Sri Lankan government forces was one of the redirects to it.--snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 16:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep - this shouldnt even be in AfD! I cant think of a more NPOV title either.. if anybody has suggestions for the title, come forward. But that is an issue for the article talk page.. not an AfD. Sarvagnya 22:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- See here for doscussion in talk page. The concensus was to redirect except 2 people hence this AFD per talk page discussion. Thanks Taprobanus 12:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Merge per dab. The article is going to be always incendiary on wikipedia and amicable solution must be found to ensure articles don't become a magnet of future wiki conflicts. Sinhala freedom 00:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong delete - This is obviously a POV article. If you guys are going to have a page like this, why not have a special page dedicated to Rapes and murders by the GOSL and paramilitary forces? Wiki Raja 13:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Merge per dab. The article Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War specifically says and shows that most assassinations have been attributed to the terrorist group. Having two articles that would end up sharing 90% of the content seems an overkill. Lotlil 16:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)