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*'''Keep''' I agree that it is unfortunate that well-known words for things become used in less appropriate contexts (I am thinking of the word Fascism which really should pertain only to the Italian WWII era political group), but that does not mean that WP can pretend that they are not in wide use. The photograph says it all; it does exist. So the subject is valid; I do not have time for anything other than an assumption that sources exist. I will take Benny and Wikifan, etc's word for it. [[User:Anarchangel|Anarchangel]] ([[User talk:Anarchangel|talk]]) 15:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' I agree that it is unfortunate that well-known words for things become used in less appropriate contexts (I am thinking of the word Fascism which really should pertain only to the Italian WWII era political group), but that does not mean that WP can pretend that they are not in wide use. The photograph says it all; it does exist. So the subject is valid; I do not have time for anything other than an assumption that sources exist. I will take Benny and Wikifan, etc's word for it. [[User:Anarchangel|Anarchangel]] ([[User talk:Anarchangel|talk]]) 15:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC) |
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::This is quite beside the point. As I've said above, the relevant question is whether or not there's a credible public discourse on the specific subject of "apartheid in Arab states." The sources, which you don't appear to have checked, do not back up this assertion. [[User:CJCurrie|CJCurrie]] ([[User talk:CJCurrie|talk]]) 17:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC) |
::This is quite beside the point. As I've said above, the relevant question is whether or not there's a credible public discourse on the specific subject of "apartheid in Arab states." The sources, which you don't appear to have checked, do not back up this assertion. [[User:CJCurrie|CJCurrie]] ([[User talk:CJCurrie|talk]]) 17:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' it appears that all is sourced and quite clear that it is as real as 'the other one'. no reason to delete at all. |
Revision as of 18:18, 24 March 2011
Accusations of Arab Apartheid
- Accusations of Arab Apartheid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article functions as a WP:COATRACK for every negative action that the Arab world has ever been accused of. Just because a commentator uses the word "apartheid" does not make the criticisms similar. Moreover, how can one Arab group (the Bahraini or Lebanese governments) practice "apartheid" against another Arab group (i.e. Shiites in Bahrain or Palestinians in Lebanon). It totally misconstrues the notion of what apartheid was. TM
- Nonesense. If some Israeli Mizrachi/Arabic Jews are "blamed" for "racism" against Arabs... so can this be. The fact is that there's Arab discrimination against Arab-Palestinians is undisputed. there's NO COATRACK here, there are several well sourced articles that many Arab systems are accused of.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - Clear case of WP:NeenerNeener in response to Accusations of Israeli Apartheid, or whatever the article was titled. Pointy original research. Carrite (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Not true. What is OR here by citing the sources that specifically state apartyheid accusations?Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Words have specific origins, then their use broadens. Apartheid is an Afrikaans word coined in the specific conditions of South Africa. Today, however, apartheid is used in political discourse when one group is perceived to relegate another group into an inferior legal status. Gender apartheid, for example, is widely discussed, with no racial connotation. As is Israel and the apartheid analogy; the divide between Israelis and Arabs is certainly not racial, it is ethno/religious. Many students of Africa, including the distinguished George Ayittey see the treatment of the people of Darfur by the Arab government and dominant ethnie of Sudan as a form of Apartheid, Ayittey also applies the term to Mauritania. Nicholas Kristof sees an analogy to apartheid in the treatment of the discriminated against Shia majority by the Sunni ruling class of Bahrain. The distinguished Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh sees apartheid in the official Lebanese denial to Palestinian refugees not only of citizenship, but of the right to purchase real estate, hold jobs, or be admitted to hospitals, despite the fact that fully three generations of these families have been born and reared on Lebanese soil. This article admittedly needs significant expansion. As the sections about, for example, the practice of apartheid against the Coptic Christians of Egypt is improved and expanded, it could have a separate article , as gender apartheid does. What the sections have in common with one another and with apartheid era South Africa is the practice in a large number of Arab societies of essentializing individuals, of defining groups by ascribed status (Christian, Shia, Palestinian, women, marsh Arabs, non Arab) and denying all members of the group rights enjoyed by members of the dominant group in a society which may, in Bahrain as it was in South Africa, be a ruling minority.I.Casaubon (talk) 15:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Lots more material is available on this topic. In particular, google: sudan Darfur arab apartheid. Many scholars and journalists have described the pan-Arab nature of support for the apartheid-like policies of the Sudanese government discrimination against non-Arab Sudanese citizens.I.Casaubon (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- well said.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Tentative Keep - There are sources, and the terminology is not unfitting, and has been used by sources (in both the Israeli and Arab cases). However, this is going to be an NPOV nightmare, so while it seems a credible article, I wouldn't be sad if it goes! Bennydigital (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete. WP:NPOV. The criticism that some Arabs are racist has been made in reliable sources—and we have an article for it (Racism in the Arab world). The criticism that some Arabs are sexist has also been made in reliable sources, and our article for that is called Women in Arab societies. Last thing we need is a content fork.—S Marshall T/C 21:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- This article is not about racism. It is about social, economic and legal inferiority imposed on a racially indistinguishable group by the governing group. Like the Lebanese laws that bar Palestinians from owning property.I.Casaubon (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- "Racism in the Arab world covers an array of forms of intolerance against non-Arab groups, minorities in the middle east and Arab rule on Africans."—first sentence of Racism in the Arab world, as of the time of typing. This is clearly in scope.—S Marshall T/C 23:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- What an odd opening sentence. The article itself begins and continues with extensive documentation of "old fashioned" hated of and discrimination against people with very dark skin in the Arab world. By contrast, I found the term Arab apartheid being used to deal with discrimination against people of the same skin color and physical type, but different identity, i.e. Egyptian Arab apartheid against Egyptian Copts. Lebanese Arab apartheid against Palestinian Arabs. Sunni apartheid against Shia in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. The concept of apartheid is distinguishable from that of racism, there are, for example, articles about both Jim Crow laws and Racism in the United States.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh so you mean this is a fork of Religious intolerance as well. Passionless -Talk 23:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- When Sunni Arabs in Lebanon pass laws against Sunni Palestinians in Lebanon it is not religious intolerance. And don't look now, but the black-skinned people being killed by Arabs in Darfur are Muslim.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2011 (UTC) Evidence of apartheid in Mauritania is also damning, and practiced by Arab Muslims against black African Muslims.
- Delete So a few people used the word apartheid instead of racist or discrimatory, these few acts should be added to their respective article rather than creating a content fork. Things like "Lebanese laws that bar Palestinians from owning property." are common in most nations of the world like how Mexican laws bar Americans from owning property. Passionless -Talk 23:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- It is in fact uncommon for a group that legally resided in a country for three generations to be forbidden to buy property, hold a job, or get hospital care because their great-great-grandparents were born in a specific country. The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are in a fairly unique position.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Luckily that's all irrelevant to this discussion and my reason that this article needs to be deleted is still WP:POVFORK. Passionless -Talk 23:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- It is in fact uncommon for a group that legally resided in a country for three generations to be forbidden to buy property, hold a job, or get hospital care because their great-great-grandparents were born in a specific country. The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are in a fairly unique position.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
*Keep Supported by reliable sources, here and here. Article meets basic requirements, editors should be wary of SYNTH and OR. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Um, do you realize that those are both opinion columns and therefore not reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Malik, the reliability of source is not necessarily dependent on how information is delivered (editorial). The first source is an editorial, but it is still hosted by a reliable news organization. Israel and the apartheid analogy is dominated by editorials and opinion pieces (by experts and notable persons of course). See WP:NEWSORG. Mainstream writers and experts have compared numerous Arab governments to the South African apartheid state as well as apartheid-style governments in general. This is notable. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone here has questioned notability, the problem with the article is inherent WP:COATRACK and WP:POVFORK. Passionless -Talk 23:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
::What is this a POV fork of Passion? Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Women in Arab societies, Racism in the Arab world, and Religious intolerance. Passionless -Talk 01:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Malik is absolutely wrong, of course jpost is reliable. any accusations of apartheid on Israel or about others, is an "opinion." So what? If you object that it's Malik's personal opinion again.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Women in Arab societies, Racism in the Arab world, and Religious intolerance. Passionless -Talk 01:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete Israel and the apartheid analogy is a lousy article but at the very least it is a topic that has generated significant attention and controversy (c.f. Carter's book). I don't see the use of the term apartheid to describe certain practices in the Arab world as being nearly notable enough to warrant an article. The issues covered in this article (which are encyclopedic) should be covered in Racism in the Arab world or, say, Discrimination in the Arab world. GabrielF (talk) 00:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC):Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete , per GabrielF . Seems like a WP:POINT response to Israel and the apartheid analogy. Tzu Zha Men (talk) 01:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete.
This is a brazen attempt to restore the substance of the "Allegations of apartheid" page, which was deleted a while ago.CJCurrie (talk) 03:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC) I've amended my comments, although I still believe very strongly that this page should be deleted. See below. CJCurrie (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Further comment I think Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination) this page may be of some relevance to the present discussion. CJCurrie (talk) 03:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Rename or Merge. At the moment, this article is a bit of a synthesis - it has plenty of sources demonstrating that allegations of apartheid have indeed been made against Arab countries, but few about the phenomenon of 'Arab apartheid' as such, suggesting that collecting these instances into one article may not be justified. I would be more happy with it if the scope were broadened to include non-Arab countries, and it were renamed to something like Apartheid outside South Africa; or alternatively if it were merged into the article Racism in the Arab world. The content here is worth keeping, but not in the way it's currently presented. Robofish (talk) 10:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete , per applicant.--Severino (talk) 11:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- I was not aware that there had been previous pages about Arab apartheid deleted from Wikipedia. The debates are interesting, but they are also ancient history. As far as I can tell, the last of them was deleted in July 2008. The application of the term "apartheid" to the mistreatment of ethnic minorities or majorities by the governing group does date back to about 1990, but as near as I can tell it has only become widely popular since about 2010. I only first heard it used quite recently, I think it was in a Nick Kristof column. The idea caught my eye because it fit with what I already knew about, for example, the abuse of Christians in Egypt, Iraq and Syria. To me, apartheid is a reasonable analogy. In the process of writing this article, I would say that it was a series of hard hitting articles using the phrase "Arab apartheid" by Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh beginning in the spring of 2010 that popularized the concept of Arab apartheid. He wrote 2 such articles in 2010 and another just this month. "Apartheid" has been used to accuse Arab regimes of abusing minority groups by such distinguished people as former Canadian Minister of Justice Irwin Cotler, professors George Ayittey, Koigi wa Wamwere and Alan Dershowitz, and by journalists including Nicholas Kristof, Ben-Dror Yemini, Rami Khouri and Irshad Manji. You may agree or disagree with the analogy being made between the way Arab governments treat disfavored groups and apartheid, but denying that the analogy is being made regularly, by distinguished people, in major periodicals (The Economist) and in serious articles and books is like denying that the tide is coming in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by I.Casaubon (talk • contribs) 19:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sure. But the Economist doesn't have a policy called Neutral Point of View.—S Marshall T/C 00:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
*The Economist is a reliable source. The title of the article suits the content it is based on. Notable figures are drawing parallels between apartheid policies and Arab governments. This is precisely what Israel and the apartheid analogy revolves around - a long survey of people who claim Israel is/isn't an apartheid state. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)- Yes, I understand the (many) problems with Israel and the apartheid analogy. I don't think the answer to that article is to create a counterarticle, though.—S Marshall T/C 01:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
*If the article is a response to Israel and the apartheid analogy, the content and quality of the sources remain unchallenged. Wikipedia is predicated on not simply neutrality but balance. It is a reasonable to create an article about allegations of Arab apartheid if reliable sources exist to support it. There is even more reason if another article exists (precedent) that includes identical claims. Whether or not the original author has an agenda is simply irrelevant. We should AGF naturally. IMO, I think the title of the article is suspect. Arab is an ethnic and social identity, not a government. We don't have Allegations of Jewish/Turkish/Kurd apartheid. Assuming this AFD is revolved, I would support a speedy move to something like Allegations of apartheid in Arab governments or Muslim governments/nations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:15, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- QUESTION? I understood form the notice box that it was permissible to edit the page while this argument goes forward. I have expanded the article (the evidence that Arab Apartheid is a significant idea seems to me extensive and valid, I hope people writing on this page will read the article objectively) I also put links to Accusations of Arab Apartheid on relevant pages. I understood this to be standard practice on Wikipedia. An individual named CJCurrie who has asked that this page be taken down has on March 22 at 23:33 taken all of the links down excepting only the link to the page on Apartheid in Israel. Is this correct behavior? A scholar like George Ayittey who has made accusations that Arab governments in Mauritania and the Sudan practice apartheid against non-Arab Muslim citizens can surely be linked to this page.I.Casaubon (talk) 01:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- It would be more accurate to say that User:I.Casaubon tagged several articles with links to Accusations of Arab Apartheid and that I subsequently removed these. This is not in any way contrary to policy or past practice, particularly when the article in question is of dubious quality. Readers should also note that I did not delete Ayittey's accusations against Mauritania and Sudan; I only removed a link and changed the wording.
- I didn't realize there was still a link on the Israel page, btw. CJCurrie (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - the individual sections are probably all notable, but connecting them all for being in the Arab world even though they're otherwise unrelated is far too much of a synthesis. Yaksar (let's chat) 03:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Please explain why they're not connected.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
CommentLMFAO. Article looks good. If Israel can be accused of apartheid then ti is fun to see the Arabs accused of it. The only thing that should stand in the way of an article is if a source does not connect Arabs with apartheid but only individual countries. From what I have seen, some sources say "Oh noes: Israel apartheid. Oh yeah, well they say Arabs do it, too". That makes me lean towards keep. On second thought is good enough for me. This is just a preliminary search and it shows some biased sources but for sure some RS. It is a topic discussed by a significant amount of independent sources. GNG is fulfilled. Keep an eye on it to make sure it does not become a POV coatrack (same should have been done for the Israel one but editors have tunnel vision). GNG is GNG even if it is just a stub and the garbage is riped out. Cptnono (talk) 04:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)- "If Israel can be accused of apartheid then ti[sic] is fun to see the Arabs accused of it" is precisely the kind of mentality that makes this topic area a hostile battleground. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep FWIW, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of the current version of the article, but I think that the notability of the topic has been established. I think that it would be possible to re-write this to solve the NPOV and SYNTH issues. Qrsdogg (talk) 17:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - A synthesized mess of an attack article, apparently created to serve as some sort of pointy counter-balance to Israeli apartheid, and article still on the hit-list of many, many POV warriors. I really don't see why we allow the continued recreation of the same material under slightly different article titles. Honestly, delete this, salt it, and take the proponents to WP:AE; this disruption has been tolerated long enough. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep and Expand! Wide noteriety for Arab apartheid (A quick google search shows that too). this is not as TM tries to suggest about "every negative action," but about clear cut apartheid features, and this info about oppression in Arab countries with clear discriminatory practices/laws resembling apartheid is much more facts based than the pseudo [attack article] claims of "apartheid" on democratic Israel fighting off attacks. Expand on: Syria VS oppressed Kurdish minority [1] who are denied basic human rights, and on Gender Apartheid in Arab-Palestine. It is NOT included in 'Racism in Arab World' because it is also about Islamic Apartheid such as FreedomHouse accusing Saudi Arabia of religious apartheid, which is not race based. Moreover this is not charging officially Arab apartheid but citing claims of accusations of Arab Apartheid, fair enough. Disliking a page does NOT constitute an 'attack article."
comment Please provide a valid reason why this should not be stayed on, thank you.Maresi (talk) 17:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Note Maresi is an account created today...Passionless -Talk 18:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Note Passionless is baselessly attacking maresi, not to mention his "reliablity" contributions that show a standard anti-Israel bias.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Note Maresi is an account created today...Passionless -Talk 18:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep. My position is that all these wp:coatrack (as nomintator puts it best) should be deleted. However, to the extent we have Israel and the apartheid analogy, per WP:NPOV we must have this article. Before anyone jumps all over me with wp:othercrapexists, let me explain. The Israel apartheid runs into the same coatrack and misconstruction that this article does. However, if that article is kept despite those deficiencies and passes the relevant Wikipedia policies, there is very little to distinguish this article from the israel-apartheid article. Thus, this should be kept not due to wp:othercrapexists, but due to wp:gng and wp:npov.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV is not a zero-sum game, achieved by simply creating negative content to balance the positive, or in this case balancing a perceived negative article with the creation of another negative article. This approach to editing is generally held to be tendentious and has led to many blocks and bans from past ArbCom cases, both in this topic area and in others. Tarc (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - You can always question the content of an article. But the content that are disputed can often be removed or re-written in a better way. I see no reason to delete the article in full. Also I am saying Keep per Brewcewers reasonings which is closest to the truth on this matter.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Echoing an WP:OTHERCRAP argument by another user is probably not the most beneficial use of a !vote. Tarc (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERCRAP doesnt apply to my valid Keep comment. But good try.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Echoing an WP:OTHERCRAP argument by another user is probably not the most beneficial use of a !vote. Tarc (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - Per Tarc's arguments. NickCT (talk) 19:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- To NickCTs comment WP:OTHERCRAP does really apply.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Further comment I think I should amend my previous comments on this discussion. When I first intervened, I said that Accusations of Arab Apartheid was an attempt to revive the "Allegations of Apartheid" fiasco from a few years ago. It now appears that I was mistaken on this point, and I will withdraw that comment. I will also attempt to provide further context to this discussion as based on past precedent; I hope that my remarks will considered in a fair light by other contributors and by whoever decides to close this debate.
- The "apartheid" debates have a long, though not necessarily a noble, history on Wikipedia. In 2006, the page currently known as Israel and the apartheid analogy was created. There were several attempts to delete the page during the first two years of its history, and I believe that many of these efforts were politically motivated. This notwithstanding, the page remained on the project and a consensus eventually developed that the subject was encyclopedic.
- Let me be very clear on this point: when I say that Israel and the apartheid analogy deals with a subject of encyclopedic merit, I am neither endorsing the analogy nor suggesting that the reality or non-reality of "Israeli apartheid" should be the standard by which the page's suitability should be judged. Rather, the page has encyclopedic merit because there has been an extensive public debate on the subject. There are numerous volumes of academic literature on the subject, former Israeli cabinet ministers such as Yossi Sarid have endorsed the analogy, and Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace not Apartheid brought the debate into a much wider sphere of discourse. Today, it's unlikely that any serious contributor to the Wikipedia would dispute the suitability of a page on this topic, whatever specific issues they may have with Israel and the apartheid analogy in its current form.
- For the same reason, Wikipedia also has pages on Social apartheid, Social apartheid in Brazil, Gender apartheid, and so forth. These are also controversial and disputed topics, but there's a sufficient body of credible, secondary-source information to justify articles on all of them.
- "Allegations of Apartheid" was a different matter entirely; it was essentially just a list of references to accusations of apartheid against different countries. Many of these references were based on very weak sources, and some were based on passing references in journalistic documents to apartheid-like conditions. It was a terrible entry -- not appropriate as a list page, and not suitable in its own terms. In other words, it was the definition of a coatrack.
- The current page, Accusations of Arab Apartheid, is perhaps less bad in this respect than was "Allegations of Apartheid," but not by terribly much. It's based on a synthesis of various sources, not on sources that address the specific issue of "apartheid" in Arab states. Some of the sources are fairly weak here as well -- I've checked one of the George Attiyey articles referenced in it and discovered that the article mentions the words "Arab apartheid" only in passing, as part of a much longer comment on corruption and factionalism in governments all throughout Africa (see Talk:George Ayittey for details). I've removed the reference from the Ayittey article, as it was patently unsuitable.
- In assessing the suitability of Accusations of Arab Apartheid, the only vital issue is this: is there a significant body of credible, sustained secondary sources (at least some of which should be scholarly) that address the issue of "apartheid in Arab states"? From what I can gather, the answer is "clearly not." There are several accusations made against specific states, but the number of sources looking at "apartheid in Arab states" is much smaller, and most of these would seem to be journalistic articles, often polemical and written for short-term consumption. The debate simply hasn't reached a critical level of discourse to justify this article, nor is it suitable as a "list page" for the individual countries in question.
- It is possible that there's a level of discourse concerning "apartheid" in individual countries (such as Sudan, perhaps) to justify pages for those countries. If so, I will not object to the creation of those pages.
- Some people have suggested that this article provides "balance" to the Israel and the apartheid analogy article. This reasoning is entirely contrary to the purpose of the project and to reliable past practice on this issue.
- I should raise one further objection to this article: its title. Although Israel and the apartheid analogy deals with a very controversial topic, all sensible commentators on the subject will acknowledge that "the State of Israel" and "the Jewish people" are distinct concepts. Although many supporters of Israel regard the phrase "Israeli apartheid" as coded anti-Semitism, it is nonetheless not the same as "Jewish apartheid," which would be recognized by most people on all sides of the Israel-Palestine debate as a far worse phrase.
- The same logic applies to the phrase "Arab apartheid." It's not uncommon for some of Israel's most vocal supporters to refer to "Islamic state apartheid" or perhaps "Arab state apartheid" in describing conditions in other countries. I happen to think that these phrases are often used very cynically and that they imply sweeping, simplistic, and ultimately unjustifiable claims against diverse and multi-faceted societies. However, neither phrase is quite so problematic as "Arab apartheid," which is capable of being read as targeting Arab people generally.
- The specific title of the current page is inherently unsuitable, unless the point is to document instances of the incredibly specious claim that Arab people generally are guilty of "apartheid." (And as such sources would by their very nature represent only a fringe element, one wonders why such a page would be necessary or desireable in the first place.) If this page is retained, which I truly hope is not the case, then at minimum its title should be changed.
- Comments and respectful discourse are welcome. Again, I hope whoever closes this debate will take these arguments into consideration. CJCurrie (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- I support all that was said, and on a side note, Gender apartheid was changed into a redirect in 2006 and only recently brought back by a single editor. I think that that article should also be changed back into a redirect for all the same reasons. Passionless -Talk 01:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete and salt per CJCurrie. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete per CJCurrie and Tarc. --John KB (talk) 03:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Delete and salt as per CJCurrie and Tarc. As CJCurrie says, if there's appropriate material, an article specifically on, say, the Sudanese case can be created. Part of what happened with the Israel and the apartheid analogy article is that it moved from a back-and-forth about the accuracy of the criticism to an article about the debate as a phenomenon in itself. That clearly has not happened here. People making accusations of "Arab apartheid" is insufficient for an article, so Google searches of the phrase are unhelpful. There would need to be appropriate articles about the criticism to avoid this being WP:synth and WP:coatrack. Bondegezou (talk) 08:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- All these requests for SALT are ridiculous. So I will pretend that you provided a reason instead of just a meaningless !vote: This article can be deleted per WP:DEL#REASON WP:NOTADVOCATE but notability is shown in a google news archive search with the likes of the Washington Post. So this article should be recreated when it meets our standards. Hopefully by then you guys voting to salt will understand policy and the notability guidelines.Cptnono (talk) 08:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Keep 1) The objectionists here have a history of anti-Israel bias.
2) There are roughly 4,000,000 results on google for 'Arab apartheid.'
It is well sourced.
3) Accusations have been made on both: Individual Arab countries and on the Arab world as a whole.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - There does seem to be the distinct odor of Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point about this article. The sources do appear to be legitimate, but they are rather lightweight. The corresponding Israel article was created only after a President of the United States and a Nobel Laureate made the analogy. Perhaps this article should be deleted, and revived when sources with more gravitas have established notability for this topic? --Noleander (talk) 14:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep I agree that it is unfortunate that well-known words for things become used in less appropriate contexts (I am thinking of the word Fascism which really should pertain only to the Italian WWII era political group), but that does not mean that WP can pretend that they are not in wide use. The photograph says it all; it does exist. So the subject is valid; I do not have time for anything other than an assumption that sources exist. I will take Benny and Wikifan, etc's word for it. Anarchangel (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is quite beside the point. As I've said above, the relevant question is whether or not there's a credible public discourse on the specific subject of "apartheid in Arab states." The sources, which you don't appear to have checked, do not back up this assertion. CJCurrie (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keep it appears that all is sourced and quite clear that it is as real as 'the other one'. no reason to delete at all.