Dicklyon and Darkfrog24
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Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- RGloucester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Users against whom enforcement is requested
- Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Discretionary sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Too many diffs to count. Simply look at the edit history of Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support. Edit-warring has been going on between these two users for more than a week, filling that edit history with nothing but reverts. Also see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register, where a similar situation has arisen.
- See also this user page discussion on Darkfrog24's talk page and this user page discussion on Dicklyon's talk page. The dispute has clearly been personalised, with accusations of "lying" going back and forth.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Standard DS notice received by Dicklyon (March 2015)
- Standard DS notice received by Darkfrog24 (September 2015)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Back on 18 December, a user requested clarification on the MoS talk page about the quotation style used by Wikipedia. This discussion started out collegial, but has blown up into a protracted dispute between two users across many pages. Darkfrog24 and Dicklyon have been edit-warring constantly on the two MoS subpages linked above for more than a week, after discussion at the main page resulted in a stalemate. I haven't even bothered to provide diffs, because the edit history of those two pages consist only of reverts made by either user. WP:3RR has long since passed. Both users are aware of the MoS DS, and this type of behaviour should not be allowed to continue. I would suggest that some action is taken against both parties to the dispute, as other editors who participated in the civil discussion at WT:MOS had no trouble avoiding this type of edit-warring, which is exactly what the MoS case remedies (see remedy 1.2) were meant to stop. Both parties are veterans of MoS disputes. How long does this type of thing have to go on in little watched pages before someone does something about it? RGloucester — ☎ 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Addendum – I strongly reject any accusations of being a "provocateur". I was involved in the discussion at the MoS talk page before Mr Lyon was even capable of commenting there, and had been following it as such. Whilst I ceased my participation as I saw that the discussion was becoming fertile ground for conflict, I also saw this continued edit-warring and pointless bickering occurring across multiple pages, with no one to stop it. The two editors in question here are both aware of remedy 1.2, which I mentioned above, which establishes a process whereby changes should occur after consensus is gained on the talk page, not by a process of edits and reversion. I don't understand how I can be at fault for bringing to light behaviour that is directly contrary to the remedies established in the arbitration case. If no one cares about this disruption in little known pages in the project space, fine. That doesn't mean that editors should be able to get away with disruptive behaviour of this sort, which is likely to spill back into more well-known pages eventually. As far as my personal reading on the matter, I tend to agree with SmC and Mr Lyon on the topic matter of this dispute. That doesn't excuse the nature of what is going on, here, again. If no administrative action is taken here, this dispute will continue repeat itself. This is not the first time it has blown up. There are cycles, and until someone stops that cycle, this disruption will continue. This has been the problem with AE for as long as I've been familiar with it. Parties in a dispute, on whatever side, are well aware of the nature of the "boomerang", and will band together against any sort of sanction for any party, because they know both sides are at fault. However, once the dispute is gone from AE and some time has passed, edit-warring begins again. Stop the cycle. RGloucester — ☎ 19:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Despite what Darkfrog24 suggests below, it seems that the dispute has merely moved to a page in the article space. I would suggest a three month topic ban from quotation styles, as suggested by JzG below. The evidence provided by SmC makes the need for this even more compelling. I tend to agree with him that Mr Lyon's behaviour has been less problematic here, and that Darkfrog24 has an apparently long history of involvement in this issue that I had not been aware of. RGloucester — ☎ 18:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
@Thryduulf, Liz, and EdJohnston: You administrators might want to take note of the massive bit of canvassing Darkfrog24 has just done, asking for "a hand" and a "character witness". He received a warning from Liz, but denies that he "canvassed". This is getting beyond the pale, pure WP:GAMING and WP:WIKILAWYERing. RGloucester — ☎ 02:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Dicklyon
Neither of us has editted Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register for nearly a week. We have confined our edit war to a stupid subpage (Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support) that nobody cares about; not clear why RGloucester thought that to be worth stalking and complaining about. Anyway, as long as the Dark Frog keeps saying that the MOS requires British style, I keep reverting, to the version that acknowledges that the style our MOS recommends, "logical style", is called "British style" by some sources. And I keep adding more sources of "support" for the MOS, as that's what the page says it's about.
If people would prefer to see us stop this, I would be happy to see a ban of any term, hopefully indef, on either of us editing this page. I'd go further and propose it for deletion at MfD, as it's just the DF's place to collect anti-MOS info, trying to set up WP:LQ to be an ENGVAR issue, which it is not. The sources are all clear on this style correlating more with region (American/Canada vs the rest of the world), as opposed to any tie to dialect. The sources I've been adding make it clear that many, or most as one source admits, Americans prefer the logical style; I acknowledge that the dark frog does not. Note that the page is essentially empty except for the one section Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style/External_support#Punctuation_inside_or_outside which was filled in by the DF as part of her campaign against LQ. It is inappropriate for her to be doing this (and yes, I admit it's inappropriate for me to be edit warring, too, but I honestly didn't think anyone would notice or care about this venue).
The closest thing to an accusation of lying was in my edit summary phrase "that's your lie" in this edit. I regret that I expressed it thus. I could have said "that's your interpretation"; anyway, no reason she should be including a controversial interpret of a source that way.
As for the so-called 3RR accusation, I don't think we've seen 3 or more edit cycles in any day. Methinks this is just RGloucester resurrecting his grudge. I have done my best to not interact with him, but he makes it hard now. Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Note that below DF claims to have shown "sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS is British". This is twisted. These sources do not mention "the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS"; this is her over-interpretation and misrepresentation; reading more closely often shows that what they call British is actually not quite the same as the logical style that our MOS advocates. Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)
- In closing...
Concerning DarkFrog24's statement "I do plan to continue the support-but-don't-initiate pattern.", this pattern is the problem; so is calling it "support". A recent incarnation of this anti-LQ pattern is seen here:
This was even after another editor had already explained that it's not an ENGVAR issue, and the discussion had no obvious call for being stirred up. It was the start of her pumping up that section to over 100 edits, mostly from her. If every time an editor asks a question about WP:LQ, DF24 jumps in with the pattern of pumping up discontent, partly by complaining that the MOS "requires British", then these disruptions around the MOS will continue. This should stop; after 7 years it has only served to pump up the noise level. LQ has been OK with WP since before DF24 came to fix it. Time to drop all that. Dicklyon (talk) 20:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: If the arbs feel that is important to topic-ban me, too, then I would abide by that. But my offer of voluntary mutual restriction was turned down. I'm pretty sure that was no evidence that I was the problem here. Dicklyon (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
And DF's latest offer to abide by a "voluntary" restriction, if someone will just explain what she's doing wrong and what she must not do any more, is bullshit, just designed to get me to take half the heat for her stubbornness. I tried to make this easy. She insists on making it hard. Dicklyon (talk) 05:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Darkfrog24
This complaint is an overreaction. As the edits themselves show, this isn't a straight revert-and-revert situation. Dicklyon and I are triangulating our way toward a version that we can both live with.[1] [2] [3] We've both been compromising and giving way to the other here and there. He stopped removing the Chicago Manual of Style from the page after I took it to the talk page and gave a good reason why he should do so (see first paragraph at this link [4]). I didn't remove the ABA reference even though I don't think it's necessary. There are a few points on which I think he's flat-out wrong and I'm confident he feels the same way, but this is a work in progress, not a stalemate.
A few factual corrections to RG's report: There haven't been accusations of lying "back and forth." Dicklyon accused me of lying. To my knowledge, I've never said anything indicating that he doesn't believe what he says. However, this measure is still an overreaction. I went to his user talk page and asked him to stop. He agreed that "lie" was taking it too far, and he hasn't done it again. It's already been dealt with.
I concur with Dicklyon regarding 3RR. I don't usually count, but I don't think either of us violated 3RR. I thought I might have been close once, so I self-reverted just in case. I also deliberately slowed it down starting a few days ago, and it feels like he might've done so too. Dicklyon did mark two substantive edits as "minor," but that might have been an accident. Again, I just went to his user page (same thread as above) and asked him to be more careful. It's already been dealt with.
If RG or anyone feels that the text of MOS:SUPPORTS does not reflect consensus, then the answer is to bring in more people either with an RfC, at a noticeboard, or less formally. I took the issue to the NPOV noticeboard for that reason.
Correction to Dicklyon: I am not collecting anti-MOS info at MOS:SUPPORTS. I hate the British-only rule and would love to see it changed to allow American punctuation in American English articles, but I was the first one to add sources to MOS:SUPPORTS proving that it is indeed correct British English[5] and I didn't add any quotes that specifically said that it isn't correct American English, even though most of the sources cited there do contain that information.[6] Another correction: No Americans do not prefer logical style (better known as British style). Mainstream style guides almost universally require American style. For sources indicating this, see MOS:SUPPORTS and its talk page.
Response to SmC: I would love to apply neutrality rules to WP:SUPPORTS.[7]
In summary, Dicklyon and I are dealing with this just fine on our own. Neither of us should be banned in any way. The appropriate thing for other editors to do is to come to the talk page and give their two cents.
- EDIT: If I'm going to respond to SMcCandlish's accusations, I'm going to need more space. Suffice it to say that most of what he's saying isn't true. It's not that he's lying, but he sees what he wants to see. For example, no Wikipedia has not been "criticized in the British press for nationalistic inaccuracy." The writer mentions Wikipedia but all he says is that he thinks one of the examples in one of the articles is wrong.[8] Please read for yourself and take all of SmC's other comments with a corresponding grain of salt. EDIT: SmC's response illustrates my point. Click the link and look at what Marsh actually wrote. Then come back here and look at what SmC concluded about it. Observe how much stretching it takes to get from A to B, and assume that he did that with his other points as well. Again, he's not lying—he just fails to see that his conclusions are interpretation plus wishful thinking and not fact. I've shown him a dozen sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS is British. I'm not the one in denial.
- Response to Dicklyon's comment: If anyone wants to see the sources that show that this practice is British, I will gladly supply them.
(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)
- I don't think it's necessary. It's a productive process and we're discussing things on multiple talk pages. RG is blowing things out of proportion again. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
(Following comment is a response to Tony1 (talk · contribs)'s second contribution.)
- Well you'd have to ask Dicklyon to make sure we're on the same page, but I think we got the job done. The only editing I've done there in the past day or so has been to format some refs. So I'd say it's moot. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
(Response to RG)
- If RG or anyone wants to make this about me, then we'll need more room, for them to make specific complaints and for me to respond. For now, I'll say that all my actions are within Wikipedia's rules. I'm allowed to cite sources and bring in new ones. I'm allowed to challenge and remove unsourced and improperly sourced material. I'm allowed to say "this rule is rotten and we should change it," so long as I don't disregard said rule before it is changed. I'm allowed to disagree with people on talk pages. When someone else says "this editor is wrong," I'm allowed to show up with Chicago MoS or Oxford and say, "actually, that editor's right, and these sources say so." Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
(Response to EdJohnston)
- See response to Tony1. I'm reasonably content with the text that Dicklyon and I worked out for MOS:SUPPORTS. As far as I'm concerned this matter has run its course. If you want to talk about anything else, I'll need more space to respond. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, if you want to accuse me of something else, you must be specific about what it is that you think I've done wrong so that I can respond. I haven't started a challenge of WP:LQ in years. When someone else does, I support them, but it's not like I'm the one who keeps bringing it up. It's been challenged at least once a year going back to long before I joined Wikipedia. [9] [10][11] [12] MOS:REGISTER lists literally dozens of challenges to this rule, and it does not include all of them.
- When someone comes to the MoS saying "Hey, isn't this wrong?" I say "Yes and here are some sources," but when someone comes to the MoS saying, "How do I use this in the article space?" I say "Here's how." I want this rule changed but in the meantime I am not undermining the MoS. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- If this is a serious accusation, then I need some specifics and confirmation that I'm allowed to go past the 500 word limit, which I passed a while back. Here's the short version. Talk pages: I decided a while ago not to create a new challenge to WP:LQ unless I had something new to say that I reasonably believed might change consensus, like a new source, but that I would support challenges raised by other editors. The last time I brought up WP:LQ myself was to suggest that we fix a misplaced comma in one of the examples. This is a plan, not a promise, but I do plan to continue the support-but-don't-initiate pattern. Article space: I've removed unsourced and poorly sourced material per WP:V and WP:NPOV. I have not opposed content that I do not like so long as it can be sourced. I believe these comments sum it up well: [13] [14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkfrog24 (talk • contribs)
I am quite taken aback by SMcCandlish's post this morning and I am not sure where to begin.
Let's start with an example:
What SmC says about me: try to turn MOS's own FAQ into a rallying point for "challenging MOS" to get "satisfaction":
Kind of makes me sound like some crazy Don Quixote who thinks he's a knight, huh? But here's what I actually said: Please exercise judgement if you are considering challenging this part of the MoS. Consider reviewing previous discussions first to see if your concerns have already been addressed to your satisfaction.
That should give you a good idea.
some more responses
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First, I have to say that SmC has some significant problems with AGF, and not just with me.[15] He claimed straw man tactics where the rest of us saw a non-issue. For example, a few days ago, another editor wanted to revert some of SmC's changes to the MoS. I said this: [16] Sounds solid to me, Chris. I'd say remove it for now. If SmC has a good reason for making this change, we should all hear him out. Then SmC responds with this[17]: I already gave the reasons, both in the text of the material and the in the edit summary. You auto-opposing whatever I support here and supporting what I oppose is tiresome, not helpful to the project, and always seems to be predicated on a demand to provide that which has already been provided. I went to his talk page to try to explain what I really meant. Here's how he reacted: [18] Whenever I guess SmC's meaning wrong, he accuses me of lying.[19][20] When he guesses mine wrong, nothing. I'm not the one making assumptions about other people's motives.
SMcCandlish's issues with me have drawn the attention of other editors: [21] I did not accuse the MoS regulars of being liars. I said they'd neglected to mention something. He says I make claims based on belief and OR. I do not. They are based on sources. For example, SmC has repeatedly taken issue with the fact that I refer to British punctuation as "British." But this is what it is called by sources on both sides of the Atlantic: Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed (The 15th does as well, but I only have that on paper) Scientific Style and Format Oxford Dictionaries Garner's Modern American Usage I can supply more if needed. This isn't a matter of "some sources conflate them." The flip side: I do not tell SmC that he can't call American style by his preferred term "typesetters," on talk pages, only that he needs to provide at least one source if he wants to do so in the article space. He says I attempted to "recruit" @Garagepunk66:. Here's what I actually said to GP.[22] What did I tell him to do? The same thing the others were telling him to do: Look at MoS:REGISTER to see previous disputes. After that, GP decided not to run an RfC. I'll also add that that GP said he felt "out-gunned a million-to-one and that other editors were viewing me as crazy" and thanked me for what I posted there. My take on the matter is that anyone who gets involved in WP:LQ should know what they're getting into. They will be targeted in some way. He says that there is no evidence to support the idea that British and American punctuation are British and American, respectively. There are literally dozens of sources that say "in American English, do this but in British English do that." I've already cited Chicago and Oxford, but there are many more. During a 2013 challenge of WP:LQ initiated by AmericanDad, I started a sub-thread meant to line up the sources on this issue to see if they really did differ along national lines, and other editors and myself brought in just under thirty. Through all of SmC's posts, do you know what you don't see? You don't see me going into articles that use British punctuation and changing it to American. I was brought up on AN/I for doing that when I was a new editor, even though the articles were already using mixtures of British and American style, even though I was making other edits (and yes, I changed some to just British too). I've kept my word. |
I hope this is enough to give everyone an idea of how much salt to add to SmC's words before taking them. I can, if necessary, go through his page line by line if anyone thinks that would be necessary or helpful. I request a heads-up before further action is taken. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- SmC is accusing me of campaigning against WP:LQ. I want this rule changed but I want it changed in accordance with the procedures that Wikipedia has put in place for that purpose. Let's look at this from the positive side: I was first to post sources supporting this rule at MOS:SUPPORTS. You've seen the content that I've added to the FAQ, urging caution. When people come to the MoS asking how to use British style, I tell them. So long as this rule is here, we should get it right.
- As for the article space, within the past few months alone, I caught and repaired a multi-year error [23], kept links up to date [24], and removed longstanding content that turned out to have been sourced unreliably [25]. Everything I've done in the articles has been consistent with WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV. SmC prefers to call them "my views," but they're really the views of almost every reliable source. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: I'm currently in conversation with LaserB about this matter. From over here, you and EdJ asked me to do something but didn't say what it was you wanted me to do. I'm trying to find out. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC) Newyorkbad, I happen to feel similarly. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC) As for RG, I asked at AN what the etiquette was on this matter and didn't get an answer. BTW, please take his view of "canvassing" with some salt.[26] "Pure of heart as a lily" indeed. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I do have something to add. If I can't change your minds about a topic ban, consider drawing a distinction between infospace and the article space. Pages that are subject to WP:NPOV and WP:V, in which editors have to cite sources to add or retain text and are discouraged from adding their opinions, have generally seen my involvement as an gain. I happen to see the MoS that way too, but I think there's enough of a difference that those who don't agree in one case might agree in the other. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- SmcCandlish, I've added that link that you pointed out was missing. As for questioning my faith, you have repeatedly called me a liar. You get so offended whenever I guess your meaning wrong but you're perfectly willing to take my words out of context and dress them up to make them look like something they're not, and it's pretty clear that you are doing it on purpose. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Izno: The last RfC that I started myself was a few years ago. I deliberately haven't started more because I figured that would make things worse. People are already complaining that I talk about this too much even when I limit things to threads that other people have started. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: I think that a distinction should be drawn between the MOS and the article space. I don't think I did anything wrong in either place (if I did, I wouldn't have done it in the first place) but I think you'll find a difference on pages that are subject to WP:V and WP:NPOV. The discussions are shorter, for one thing, because the rules are clearer.
- I'm currently in discussion with Laser Brain about the voluntary matter that Ed J suggested. I also asked Ed J about it, but he did not answer my questions and LB did. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: @JzG/help:(Guy) @KillerChihuahua: @Laser brain: @Liz: @Newyorkbrad: @Thryduulf: Per discussions on Laserbrain and KC's user talk pages, since the objection here is not what I am saying but that I am saying it too much, a 1RR situation seems like the appropriate response. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'd like it on the record that I am willing to do a voluntary restriction. I just want to work out exactly what it would be ahead of time. To do that, I'm going to need some feedback on what the admins think is acceptable. If I think something is wrong, I don't do it in the first place, so I need to know what you guys think, and I'm not going to be able to guess. For example, if KillerC hadn't suggested it, I would not have thought that 1RR would be on the table. I would like some concrete suggestions or at least more insight into how you view this matter. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon:, the above had nothing to do with you. The truth is, I still don't think either one of us did anything that merits this level of response (though right this minute I'm thinking you could stand to take another look at AGF) but the admins clearly don't see things that way and I'm willing to make a change despite my own feelings on the matter. I just don't want to agree to something without knowing what it is first or guess at other people's thought processes. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Tony1
I agree with the comment below that this is lame; but not that sanctions are appropriate here. Both involved users are valuable participants on MOS and other WP pages. They should simply agree to cool off and undertake to avoid cross-editing.
RGloucester is a well-known provocateur, and I believe started the thread here out of pure mischief. Regard his first post at the talkpage in question, then the starting of this thread at AE just 23 minutes later, before any futher activity on either the article page or talkpage there. Note also his statement that the page in question "has no standing within the MoS, no community consensus backs it, it is essentially a user essay, and should probably be put in the user space." It is, then, heavily ironic that he should seek to cause maximum disruption by using the apparent "DS" status of that page to start a thread here. It is disingenuous and not in the spirit of calming ruffled waters. Tony (talk) 11:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- So, are both parties willing to give that sub-page a rest for a few weeks, as suggested below? This thread is getting old. Tony (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
TL;DR version: This sums up the problem perfectly: This is a "hate"-based personal WP:BATTLEGROUND matter for one editor, who will never, ever drop the stick of their belief that logical quotaion "is British" and "is wrong" for Americans, no matter how often this is disproved by citation to sources showing American publishers and style guides using logical quotation, and British style guides defining various conflicting styles, none of which are actually logical quotation, just superficially similar. All Darkfrog24 ever brings to the table is relentless equating of LQ with British to every audience available (based on nothing but the failure of some American sources to bother to distinguish them), making a bogus ENGVAR case so that Darkfrog24 can do whatever Darkfrog24 wants. This campaign against MOS consensus has been going on for 6.5 years and needs to be ended, with a topic ban. Dick Lyon reverting anti-consensus, polemic PoV and OR in the page in question (before it gets MfDed, which I plan to take care of as soon as possible – it's a WP:NOTHERE problem to have a page devoted to externally sourcing internal documentation instead of sourcing encyclopedia articles) is not comparable to Darkfrog24 editwarring to re-insert their PoV, OR and anti-consensus polemic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Shortened (again). 02:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- General response: Ultimately, it simply does not matter whose sourcing regarding off-WP quotation-mark usage is correct (if anyone's) – except in mainspace at Quotation marks in English (which also at present mostly just reflects DF24's views). Being an article, it can be dispute-moderated by the usual ways.
It's an impermissible behavioral problem to spend years pushing a point of view about the matter, tendentiously against consensus, across both projectspace and mainspace. WP has an internal consensus to use LQ for actual reasons, and it doesn't matter which external sources agree with us (though plenty do, [examples elided]).
RGloucester is correct that the editwarring would resume (and not just at that page) after a while, but it would be by DF24 against anyone who disagrees, as the slow-editwar history of MOS:FAQ demonstrates, as does the related pattern of OR-based PoV pushing at the other MOS-related pages, the article in question, and the related Wiktionary articles. Our actual content is being warped to support a personal agenda, and we've been publicly criticized for the nationalistic inaccuracy in the British press.
Direct quote, since Darkfrog24 denies it:
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- The denialism expressed by DF24 above is symptomatic of the issue with this editor. You see, sources simply do not say what they say if DF24 doesn't want to hear it. It's just a form of OR. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Updated with direct quote, 01:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC); shortened, 11:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- R to Slimvirgin's comments: 'Three people (with whom I often disagree) post more than I like on another page' isn't an AE rationale for sanctioning multiple parties. The length of the discussions is entirely traceable to the ICANTHEARYOU pattern of the one editor being considered for a topic ban. There is nothing difficult or complicated about 'don't change the punctuation in quoted material'; it is the simplest possible quotation style devisable – just copy and paste – and certainly simpler than the various "British" (not North American) styles (which are often "fiddly"). DF24's 6.5-year campaign to confuse LQ with "British" is the one and only reason for any confusion about how to use LQ, a problem about to be rectified. WP's use of LQ for over 10 years, despite slow-editwar activism and multiple RfCs against it, clearly indicates the consensus for it is stable. Besides, anyone can start another RfC whenever they like. The claim of low compliance was recently disproved by both my and DF24's own statistical analyses [28], and the bulk of the partial-compliance cases are instances of confusion of simple LQ with mutually conflicting British styles. The rest of SV's commentary is non sequitur, and not responsive to the AE request. This page doesn't exist for re-argument against the LQ consensus (and it's all already been addressed many times before, incl. why this is not an ENGVAR matter, how WP always cites a source when directly quoting (that's the source to which LQ would be applied), why "both styles" is a false dichotomy since there are about a dozen styles, etc., etc.). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Evidence: Since there's now discussion here of resolving this with a topic ban, I have gathered in one page much of the evidence I've been working on for an RFARB case to examine Darkfrog24's editing behavior patterns with regard to style matters at MoS pages and in mainspace. Looks like no such time- and effort-wasting case may be necessary. Whether a remedy that only extends to quotation marks will do much good seems dubious to me, as the editor's tendentiousness covers the breadth of the WP:ARBATC "broadly construed" topical space, including in articles. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:21, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Darkfrog24's diff of me noting that the rationales DF24 demands were already provided (sound familiar?) does not support in any way DF24's claim "SmC has some significant problems with AGF, and not just with me", for which it was supposed to be evidentiary. So, that makes it an unsupported aspersion-casting, per WP:ARBATC#All parties reminded, like the others I diffed already. I suggested a broader-than-quotation-marks topic ban for a reason. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:03, 20 January 2016 (UTC) Shortened, 00:06, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dirtlawyer1 states that Darkfrog has not editwarred about this matter in the text of the guideline itself, but my diff page already shows otherwise, just as recently as 09-2015.
- Darkfrog24's diff of me noting that the rationales DF24 demands were already provided (sound familiar?) does not support in any way DF24's claim "SmC has some significant problems with AGF, and not just with me", for which it was supposed to be evidentiary. So, that makes it an unsupported aspersion-casting, per WP:ARBATC#All parties reminded, like the others I diffed already. I suggested a broader-than-quotation-marks topic ban for a reason. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:03, 20 January 2016 (UTC) Shortened, 00:06, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Dirtlawyer1's other points actually all relate to DF24's behavior pattern, not external facts:
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My diffs skip almost everything from 2009 to 2015, and late 2015 to 2016; I'll be happy[? not really the right word] to diff additional evidence that this is a long-term pattern by DF24 at Wikipedia:Manual of Style itself, if necessary (may need 24 hours or so). Dirtlawyer1 correctly observes that various, mostly American, editors would like to make quotation style and various others be ENGVAR matters. But they are not, for good reasons. ENGVAR was created to forestall disputes like color vs. colour, or people rewriting entire articles to be in Australian instead of Canadian English for no reason, and other matters where WP has no intrinsic reason to prefer one stylistic point over another. This is not the case with LQ, and WP:AE is not the place to "re-legislate" consensus on that matter. Yet another RfC can do that if necessary. A very narrow TB is being considered for DF24 because of the enormously disruptive pattern of sustained activism on this topic, not because of an opinion held by the editor. It's a behavioral matter. And the primary reason that some American editors confuse LQ with "British style" and become irritated seems to be because DF24 has spent so much time and energy sowing this very confusion, agent provocateur style, at MOS itself, at WT:MOS, at MOS:FAQ, at the Quotation marks in English article, at MOS:SUPPORTS, even at Wiktionary. On all other matters – those without a dedicated activist – WP editors adjust with little if any conflict to whatever consensus settles on at MOS (as we would expect; who is not already aware that different publications have house styles, and that we use them when we write for them?), with only rare exceptions like en dashes, date auto-linking, and capitalization of common names of species. British/Commonwealth editors are under no such illusion that LQ is "British". LQ is a style that does not have a national tie (no matter how hard anyone tries to manufacture one), and is used here because it's accurate and simple (no style could be simpler than "don't change the quote"). Consensus may well swing against it some day, but not because someone will fight forever to force it to do so. |
- PS: The diffs already provided clearly demonstrate that it simply isn't the case that DF24 gears up this fight only once a year. It's ongoing and continual, migrating from page to page. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:43, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Re: Darkfrog24's self-proposed 1RR restriction: That would do nothing to alleviate any of these problems.
Because:
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- — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SlimVirgin
Darkfrog asked me to comment. The issue at WT:MOS is that it feels as though no one can get a word in, and this seems to be because Dicklyon, Darkfrog and SMcCandlish are highly active there. It's arguably unfair to topic ban only one. I would suggest asking all three to limit the number (and, above all, length) of their posts about any topic there, and to ask Darkfrog not to initiate any discussion of LQ.
It would be helpful to open a well-written RfC about LQ, but as things stand it's likely to be filibustered away. So we persist with a complex, minority punctuation style without knowing whether it has real consensus.
LQ is a complicated style to get right. Almost no one does on Wikipedia, in part because it's fiddly, and in part because you often need access to the original source. Newspaper copy editors don't get it right either. It's particularly difficult with LQ, I would say impossible, for new editors to glean the rule by copying what others have done, whereas it's easy to copy typesetters' style – where punctuation is placed inside quotation marks – and that should be a major factor for us. In my view we should allow both styles, along the lines of STYLEVAR, ENGVAR, CITEVAR and DATEVAR (either strong national ties or first major contributor).
These are the issues that are frustrating Darkfrog. But while I have every sympathy, it's sometimes important to accept that one is raising something ineffectually and that continuing in the same way risks becoming disruptive. SarahSV (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Garagepunk66
Perhaps the best thing to do before instating any kind of ban on an editor perceived as tendentious would be for he or she to make a formal pledge to stay off of this particular topic for "x" amount of time (say for at least a year). From speaking to both Darkfrog24 and SMcCandlish, I can attest that they are both dedicated and conscientious editors, but that they have a very intense disagreement on this issue. I am trying to be neutral, and (surprisingly) I have a friendly rapport with both. Though I expressed the concern that the quotation policy could use some slight modifications (i.e. exceptions in certain prescribed circumstances), I have accepted that the issue has been hotly debated and is very contentious--and that it will get nowhere at this time. So, I have chosen not to further pursue the topic. But, I realize that Darkfrog24 feels that the issue still needs to be challenged. I am not against the idea that the debate could be revisited at a much later time (after all, any policy can be re-evaluated at a later time), but that maybe we have to wait a good long while. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Dirtlawyer1
I was not going to participate in this discussion, but I felt the need to speak up as two or three administrators have started to push for a topic ban. The one-sided claims against Darkfrog24 are both exaggerated and unfair. I want to be clear that I take no sides on the silly little edit war between Darkfrog24 and Dicklyon over a mostly meaningless essay; one participant above correctly described this teapot tempest as "lame," and frankly it would have been better ignored by everyone including Darkfrog24, Dicklyon and especially Rich Gloucester.
Darkfrog24 is a long-term and highly productive contributor, who is respected for her usually measured, logical and well-researched comments on a wide variety of MOS-related issues. And the same could be said of both Dicklyon and SMcCandlish (the other chief antagonist on matters of so-called "logical quotation"). This is an issue which divides MOS talk participants about 55/45 in favor of the existing MOS:LQ guideline, and it leaves a strong, if not overwhelming majority of American editors angry and frustrated that MOS forces them to use a convention that they perceive as both unnatural and incorrect from the viewpoint of standard American majority practice. Many American editors believe passionately that Wikipedia articles about American topics written in American English should use the quotation practice which is the overwhelmingly standard practice of 300 million Americans, and Darkfrog has periodically advocated on MOS talk pages for a change in quotation practice to permit American editors to use the majority American practice pursuant to WP:ENGVAR. Dicklyon and SMcCandlish have both advocated equally forcefully to maintain the existing guideline for the mandatory and uniform use of "logical quotation" for all Wikipedia articles, regardless of ENGVAR. Both sides have valid points, but I have often said that MOS works best when it tracks the majority style practices of the real world. In this case it does not track majority practice (at least not for American English), and as a result previously uninvolved American editors show up at MOS talk pages to angrily complain about what they perceive is the imposition of "British punctuation" on articles written in American English.
As far as I can tell, Darkfrog has done absolutely nothing wrong other than periodically raise the issue on MOS talk pages; she has not edit-warred over the wording of the actual guideline, nor has she rewritten Wikipedia article space content in contravention of the existing MOS:LQ guideline. All she has done is advocate for the application of ENGVAR to quotation punctuation -- a position that many of her fellow editors believe is quite right and reasonable. I strongly urge the participating administrators to step back and accept the fact that Darkfrog represents most American editors when this issue is raised, and acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with "blowing off steam" on this topic once a year. Consensus can change, and Darkfrog is giving voice to many of her fellow editors who agree with her and not the existing MOS:LQ guideline. Selectively muzzling Darkfrog with a topic ban comes dangerously close to punishing someone for a having a very widely held point-of-view. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Izno
I was notified of this WP:AE at my talk page by DF24.
Having observed WT:MOS for a while now, it is clear to me that DF24 either needs to drop the stick or start an RFC on WP:LQ. As DF24 has not done the latter in the apparent lengthy frame of time in which DF24 has campaigned against LQ, that leads me to believe that an RFC won't be started in the near or far-term by DF24, making the discussion there more-or-less tendentious (and quite wearying, from my point of view).
A topic ban from punctuation in the context of quotation seems appropriate, at least in the MOS space. I am unsure of a topic ban from punctuation in the context of quotation (or, "quotation marks", I suppose) in all space, is necessary. If such a topic ban were passed, I would be careful to word it such that DF24 may add any new punctuation of quotation in any form he or she desires. --Izno (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Darkfrog24: You have talked more at length in the past year (singular) than a single RFC to confirm or remove WP:LQ would have allowed for, so I don't buy the reasoning/excuse (though I won't suggest you didn't in good faith believe it to be so). I won't comment here further on any points. --Izno (talk) 12:51, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Staggeringly lame. Both should be banned from that and related pages for at least three months. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Concur with JzG. It appears the editors have dug into position here, and are not even pretending to try to find consensus or see the other editor's view. KillerChihuahua 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The two comments above were left before the involved editors posted their statements.
- Would both editors agree to stay off that subpage for at least a few weeks? Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- "stalking"? "Handling this just fine"? Stand by Guy's first suggestion. Howsoever, certainly in any event voluntary distance is preferable to sanctions imposed from outside. I'd support either. KillerChihuahua 19:28, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- If a voluntary agreement to disengage cannot be reached, or if that agreement doesn't end this matter, I think a topic ban from the subject of quotation marks, that would apply in all namespaces, would be justified, probably for both parties. Thryduulf (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- It does appear that Darkfrog24 continues to advocate fiercely against MOS:LQ. We should take whatever action appears sufficient to damp down the furor. If that means topic bans for two parties from quotation marks, that is one way to do it. Darkfrog24's comments above appear diplomatic at first glance, but basically they want to be able to continue the advocacy indefinitely and don't see any problem with it. An agreement by both parties to desist would be sufficient, if it were offered. Dicklyon has said he would accept any mutual restriction, so I think it is now up to Darkfrog24 to make a voluntary offer sufficient to forestall a ban. EdJohnston (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Darkfrog24 has now responded here. This doesn't address the problem, in my opinion. It looks like they are planning to keep on beating the dead horse forever on the topic of logical quotes. A topic ban of at least Darkfrog24 from the topic of quotation marks now appears necessary. EdJohnston (talk) 03:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree the responses from Darkfrog24 don't evidence understanding of the issue, so I think we do need to impose a topic ban from quotation marks. As for Dicklyon, I am wondering about a suspended topic ban that can be activated by any uninvolved admin if they are involved in any disruption in the topic area in the next 3 (6?) months. Thryduulf (talk) 13:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I concur that a topic ban for Darkfrog24 from quotation marks both in project space and article space would be the healthiest solution here. This is clearly an area of extraordinary interest to Darkfrog24, and I don't see any sign of the campaign stopping. --Laser brain (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: I think a topic ban from just quotation marks is all that can really be supported based on this AE section. Hopefully it will send a significant message that they need to stop, but if it does not then either they will be blocked for breach of the topic ban or the disruption will move elsewhere. If the latter happens, then the topic ban can be expanded. If that also fails (and I hope it never gets to that point), then it's more likely that arbcom will take the case with clear evidence that community DR hasn't worked (although I hope it does). Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- It looks to me that there is a rough consensus for a topic ban from quotation marks here. If nobody objects or has further comments about the scope (e.g disagreeing with my comments immediately above) then I'll enact it in a day or so. Pinging @Newyorkbrad: and @KillerChihuahua: to see if they have comments. Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Only on Wikipedia could someone be "topic-banned from quotation marks". For how long are you proposing it? Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think this is the least onerous sanction I have come across on AE. I wouldn't make it indefinite but then I often underestimate the ferocity of debate over MOS issues. Liz Read! Talk! 22:53, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm agreeable to topic ban, voluntary or otherwise. As voluntary doesn't appear at all likely, let us make it otherwise. Indef, appeal after one year? KillerChihuahua 00:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm thinking this does need to be indefinite (not meaning infinite) as SMcCandlish and others note this has been going on for years already. I was thinking of allowing an appeal after 6 months, but if others prefer 12 I'm not going to object to that. Wording is of course important, and we need to be clear that this is not a ban on using quotation marks, but from discussions about them. So I propose the following:
- Darkfrog24 is indefinitely topic banned from articles, discussions, and guidelines, explicitly including the manual of style, related to quotation marks and quotation styles, broadly interpreted. They may use quotes and quotation marks, and edit pages that include them, subject to normal editing rules (e.g. regarding edit warring). This ban may be appealed no sooner than 6 months after it is placed.
- Any comments or suggestions? Hopefully it goes without saying that any disruption in other areas will at the very least mean that appeals will not be granted any times soon and will quite likely result in it being broadened. Thryduulf (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- That wording seems OK to me. EdJohnston (talk) 16:55, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Given the discussions in histories throughout, as well as ongoing on Laser brain's and my talk pages, I would prefer a year. I'm not inclined to disagree if others feel six months will be sufficient. My concern is that Darkfrog24 appears to me to be trying to find out what he needs to do in order to keep trying to "win" this argument. This is WP:BG and I don't see it being easy to get past. There's a fundamental difference between getting enough time off of something you feel strongly about and personalize so that you can refocus, learn to work with others, moderate your approach, etc - and doing your time so you can get back in the fight. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 17:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @KillerChihuahua: If this were a finite topic ban you would have completely convinced me that it should be 12 months. As it's just when appeals are allowed, which will not be successful without a change in attitude, I'm going to leave this open a little while longer to see if there are other opinions about the length. If there aren't then I'll place it for 12 months. Thryduulf (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon: You have indicated you would abide by a mutual restriction, if you hold yourself to the same restriction proposed above as a voluntary topic ban I don't think there would be any appetite for further action at this time. Is that something you are happy to do? Thryduulf (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I am fine with the wording, and the six month time-to-appeal. --Laser brain (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK, I'm imposing the topic ban on Darkfrog24 as proposed above, it will be an indefinite topic ban with an appeal allowed after 6 months. I encourage Dicklyon to hold themselves to the same restriction, but I'm not formally topic banning them at this point. However, Dickylon should note that this is without prejudice to a new AE action against them if anyone wishes. Thryduulf (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
BjörnBergman
BjörnBergman is subject to 1RR on Longevity broadly construed. This sanction is valid for a period of 6 months from today Spartaz Humbug! 18:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BjörnBergman
And in all this fails to engage on their own or any article talkpage they are editing.
Discussion concerning BjörnBergmanStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BjörnBergmanStatement by BabbaQ
Statement by GreatGreen
Statement by clpo13BjörnBergman has reverted on WOP articles multiple times, citing the lack of GRG verification ([45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50]). However, they've only participated in the discussion at Talk:Oldest people once ([51]). That discussion, however, was in relation to their unilateral redirection of various pages, such as List of the verified oldest people ([52], [53]), List of oldest living people ([54], [55]), and List of the verified oldest women ([56], [57]). Now, I'm sure there's something to be said about reorganizing these disparate lists, but BjörnBergman did it without discussion and reverted (multiple times) when challenged. The aforementioned talk page comment ([58]) shows that they apparently don't understand why their actions were reverted. Combined with the lack of discussion regarding Zhou Youguang and his inclusion on Oldest people and related pages, I'm forced to concluded that this editor should stay away from longevity articles until they can demonstrate a collaborative mindset to editing this topic. clpo13(talk) 00:33, 18 January 2016 (UTC) Statement by SMcCandlish (uninvolved except to comment in talk about GRG and undue weight)I was passing by and took a look at Zhou Youguang. What I see is Bergman adding an age update, then later an anon begins editwarring with comments like "Birth date not verified by the GRG, no truth to it" and deleting all the birth information [59]. There's no demonstration of a connection between these edits. Previous edits (even disputes) elsewhere involving Bergman and a potential WP:UNDUE weight being given to the Gerontology Research Group (which, no, is not the only possible reliable source for birth date information for old people) doesn't automatically mean every edit relating to them in their favor is by Bergman. If there's a suspicion of sock puppetry, try WP:SPS first and get evidence. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning BjörnBergman
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TFBCT1
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning TFBCT1
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TFBCT1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- There is a talk page discussion at the oldest living people talk page about whether to include Zhou Youguang as a supercentenarian (there's argument at Zhou's talk page that, since the GRG hasn't verified his age, his birth date should be removed there regardless of the other sources we have). There's a separate discussion below about the lede and the criteria. Rather than communicate in any way, TFBCT1 first rewrote the definition of the page so that it requires GRG approval and then in the Zhou section and not the lede section posted that he had changed the meaning to the oldest people page and QED Zhou doesn't count (first talk page comment since September 2011). I noted that it was a lowball way to win the point and it is disruptive. He was pinged to comment rather than revert but has yet to comment or discuss this any further.
- Reverted again to state that "notability and sourcing have nothing to do with longevity research."
- Reverted again to mirror the oldest people page (which has much worse problems with edit warring), still no attempt to engage on the talk page.
- The editor's history is almost always consistently of nothing more than "updating" longevity tables. Note that these updates change the names and rankings of people include the additional of new people without sources and don't show any changes to the GRG citation which is the source so it's actually more difficult to verify what the actual source is for these changes. See 1, 2, 3 (still allegedly citing the September 2015 version), removing a claim which I presume in limbo (whatever that means), etc., etc.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Notified about sanctions here.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Apologies for another longevity enforcement request but TFBCT1's refusal to engage in any discussion and game-playing to redefine the criteria so that only the GRG's list is counted is par for the course with these proponents. Even if the editor was in good faith supporting the logic that we await approval from another "super source" beyond our regular sourcing requirements so that someone can be added to the tables, their refusal to discuss it in the actual lede discussion in favor of changing the lede and the criteria specifically to exclude a claim (while arguing that we should focus on "longevity research" as opposed to our sourcing requirements) is frustrating. I've started an RFC at Talk:List_of_oldest_living_people#RfC:_How_should_we_word_the_lede.3F and I fully expect that none of the GRG proponents will ever comment at the RFC and will just revert and revert to get what they want as they have done for a decade. This disruption is spreading to other biographies until the insane delusion that the only source we can have the moment someone reaches age 110 is the GRG and that everything else must go out the window. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Spartaz The edit war has stopped because I and anyone else didn't continue. If you look at the RFC, there's zero support for the version that TFBCT1 put there. Are we just waiting for the RFC to get closed and enacted with someone else and then we'll see if TFBCT1 has changed? Should I just change it now and see if he responds? He's clearly not going to comment on the talk page or justify his version (neither have the other supporters of that theory). What about the complete refusal to communicate beyond the simple "I've changed it to a version that I and I alone support, one that is against all polices here" after years of editing in this topic? Since then, he's continued with his "table updates" moving names around with no changes in sourcing or any explanation at all and also an edit to add a cite needed to Zhou's claim on the Asian supercentenarians (the exact same person who he's removed and fought to remove from the oldest people page). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- In the small chance that TFBCT1 isn't just going to get to continue on, I note that while he's advocated for this "international bodies" requirement for living people to exclude Zhou, he has no issue reporting people's alleged death dates here based on clearly non-reliable sources such as dignitymemorial posts. Clearly he doesn't care at all about actual reliability of sources (or to even dignify us with a response here) but only about keeping out the non-GRG-approved claims. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:38, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning TFBCT1
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by TFBCT1
- I made good faith edits to what I thought were standards that have been in place in the longevity section for over a decade. When things changed through consensus; I stopped my edits. My change to the lead in the List of oldest Living People was nothing more than copying and pasting the lead to the List of the Oldest People. I have been updating the longevity tables daily for over a decade- they need to be done manually. There was no ill will on my part in any respect.TFBCT1 17:38, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I will no longer revert edits regarding "reliable sources," now that consensus has been reached. I will continue to update table information as I have for over a decade.TFBCT1 22:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by clpo13
The lack of discussion by TFBCT1 is concerning. They've only made a single talk page comment in over four years ([60], [61]). I pinged them to a discussion on Talk:List of oldest living people regarding the lead of that article, but they haven't chimed in beyond the diff I linked. They have, however, continued to revert to their preferred version of the article. clpo13(talk) 23:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Legacypac
Reverts User:Calton who notes GRG does not set wikipedia standards [62] with "no consensus for this edit as per below."
Statement by (username)
Result concerning TFBCT1
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Minded to close this in favour of the demand that the edit war on Oldest people stops. I'm inclined to dishing out 1RR restrictions rather than topic bans for this revert war but can be persuaded to desist in exhange for a commitment to start talking. Spartaz Humbug! 19:38, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- The edit summary of this edit by TFBCT1 seems to make Ricky's point, that this editor considers GRG the only adequate source. "Notability and sourcing do not deal with longevity research". By saying this he appears to be contradicting WP:V. How about we propose a topic ban here, and notify the editor. Give him a chance to explain how he will avoid the problem in the future. If he continues with his practice of never responding on talk pages or noticeboards, that will make our decision simpler. EdJohnston (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Mystery Wolff
Appeal reviewed, including clarification requested at ARCA. Request not granted. NW (Talk) 04:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
NOTE: Because of items brought up newly within the Meta Discussion, and discussion on with which group reviews the item, this is moved to the A/R/E board, intact. Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Mystery WolffEdJohnston is an editor whom I interacted with, and was involved with my editing. He asked that I respond to sockpuppet assertions on the TALK pages, which he ultimately used as part of his justification to ban me indefinitely. He was involved with another AE opened on me that was rescinded, and was the person who suggested as the first measure of any sanction or warning to me that I be topic banned for 6 months.
Bottomline
The AE has most of the information. The AE was created by an editor who wants me to not edit. I should be afford the opportunity to work properly and edit properly without having other editors act as owners of the article. I do not believe I should have been sanctioned at all. I was editing correctly. And I was using the Talk pages. The indefinite ban is overkill, by any measure and reflects the biases and true "involvement" with EdJohnston with this case. He recommendations poisoned the well with the other admins. The ARB he is enforcing does not specify that the first saunction would be a 6 month ban. In fact it says it should not exceed 30 days. I was not part of the original ARB, but its subsequent enforcement to other editors are nothing near what EdJohnston has pushed on me. EdJohnston has refused to point out my edits in a question. Long term sockpuppets were interacting with my edits, with no investigation by EdJohnston to why. His mind was made up
Additional Responses by Mystery Wolff
Statement by EdJohnston
Statement by AlbinoFerretAs far as EdJohnston, he is not involved. The only edits to the articles were as an uninvolved admin to the talk page and suggested ways that the editors could solve issues (more discussion, RFC, AE, etc). He to my knowledge has never edited any electronic cigarette article, nor voiced any opinions on content on any talk page. Per WP:INVOLVED he is not involved. AlbinoFerret 23:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC) I would like to point out WP:ASPERSIONS. So far none of the claims of Mystery Wolff have been proved. Also the 500 word limit has long been passed by him. AlbinoFerret 13:02, 20 January 2016 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My KenMystery Wolff: You are incorrect in your understanding of what happened regarding the text of the instructions for the bottom section:
I hope that clears up the issue for you. BMK (talk) 03:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Mystery Wolff
Result of the appeal by Mystery Wolff
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Canada Jack
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Canada Jack
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:48, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Canada Jack (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Editing to restore the "original edit" which I point out is wrong.
- The discussions at Talk:List_of_oldest_living_people are largely self-explanatory. The issue is whether reliable sources should determine who should be listed on the page or some other terminology: the phrasing now is "international body that specifically deals in longevity research" but without identifying the GRG as the only actual source in play.
- The "no one has 'verified' the age" versus newspapers alleging "reporting" the age (I don't even know anymore) arguing continues here
- To determine which bodies are said international longevity researching specific-whatever, "We observe what news sources use" so arguing newspapers are unreliable as a source other than to parrot the GRG as a source.
- "Nice try, Ricky. NONE of the sources outside of GRG / Guinness claim that these birthdates are "verified"... unless GRG/Guinness has verified them!" which is false.
- "I never said they were the sole authorities, but media around the world use those two almost exclusively, so we should as well, that's all"
- It's the oldest living people, yet Canada Jack derails the discussion by repeating arguing about the insertion of Methusalah's age knowing full well that's irrelevant, but calling it the logical consequence and the can of worms opened by the lede saying "reliable sources" alone. The section needs an outside admin to just collapse it.
- Canada Jack has been derailing the discussion by pointing to this article in the Canada Star.[65] While never advocating for her inclusion, (a WP:NOTFORUM problem), he's repeatedly referencing it including just to make snipes on other discussions going on.
- " This page is for verified claims. The fact a claim was published doesn't establish its veracity."
- As noted above, there is an argument about the birthdate for Zhou Youguang (not a claim, just that little fact). The only way Canada Jack sees this is "His claim is accepted on its face by the media. But... there is no mention of Guinness and/or GRG as having verified the claim" in regards to his birthdate. As discussed before, no one cares a cent about this until Zhou turned 110 and then there's arguments everywhere that his birthdate must be removed until it's verified by the GRG or else there exists the possibility that Wikipedia is claiming that a supercentenarian exists that the GRG hasn't identified which I don't know why that matters.
- Finally, to summarize this mentality, "Are you seriously trying to claim that it is the Toronto Star which has determined that the proof is "not solid enough" instead of Guinness? That the Toronto Star, not Guinness, bestows the crown of "world's oldest person"? C'mon, Ricky, surely you can do better than that!"
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- The talk pages each notify the editor of the discretionary sanctions.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is the typical parade of horribles and chaos caused whenever there is an ounce of push-back to even debating the language that doesn't explicitly or implicitly treat the GRG as the last word on the birth date of very old people. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- In response, I first note that if Canada Jack knew he was wrong, the proper thing is to restore the correct version, not to ignore it until called out here but it's been changed again which doesn't matter with the RFC ongoing. I note that this is again a single issue: is List of oldest living people going to continue to be a walled garden that expresses a particular WP:POV about who is allegedly the world's oldest people or not? Our sourcing policy is clear: we are to have a single WP:NPOV everywhere and a single standard for WP:RS. The analogous WP:MEDRS either believes a fact or strips it away entirely; it does not create separate articles with different sourcing standards. Canada Jack's refusal to accept that is precisely the type of antics that brought about the original longevity ARBCOM case. There is literally nothing in his arguments that hasn't been argued for over a decade. Either we should report on Zhou's birthdate as a fact on his biography, put him in the relevant category, and put him in the (all the) relevant articles (which admittedly the oldest living people is not) or we treat that fact as a WP:FRINGE theory and ignore it entirely. The amount of inane arguing over an article that literally no one supports or has even thought to include longevity claims shows the level of hysteria over any pushback that does nothing but drive away all but the most hardened of editors here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Canada Jack
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Canada Jack
My reading of the "Sanction or remedy to be enforced" is that it was determined that verified super-centenarian lists from the GRG were considered a "reliable source," and that the non-yet verified lists (Table EE from GRG) were not a "reliable source." However, what we are talking about here is not whether GRG or Table EE is or isn't a RS, it's whether news media reports on longevity claims of those over 110 years old can be used on the "oldest living people" page, if these "reliable sources" suffice to be being included with claims which have been verified by GRG etc., the particular discussion on what the lede should say. The contention here from me and others is the only a recognized authority on verifying these claims should be used in considering these claims "verified," and that news organizations, while "reliable sources," are not able to properly assess these claims, no more than a newspaper, even the New York Times, would publish, say, the latest cancer claims without consulting oncology experts who could better assess and put into context such claims. As Guinness World Records oft stated: "No single subject is more obscured by vanity, deceit, falsehood, and deliberate fraud than the extremes of human longevity," hence the need for a rigorous, more scientific approach in assessing claims. Many news organizations recognize the expertise Guinness and the GRG have on this subject as they are cited, from publications around the world, as having "verified" particular claims. I could supply literally hundreds of examples from around the world of them being cited as authorities.
In attempting to change the lede to allow "verification" from news sources, thus removing the need for sole GRG/Guinness verification, a can of worms is opened, which is what the thrust of the discussion here was. I pointed out that by their own criteria of "reliable sources," dubious claims like that of a woman in Canada who will soon turn 120, would warrant inclusion on this page, thus destroying the credibility of Wikipedia. She would be the oldest person in the world. (News sources, citing Guinness/GRG, routinely identify a woman in New York, at 116, as the world's oldest.) I was never seriously proposing to include her on the page, I was using their own criteria to point out that a highly dubious claim would be admissible, and therefore their changes would be detrimental. This approach from Ricky and others are nakedly anti-GRG, those who argue as I do are routinely painted as shills for GRG, a tone I personally find perplexing - it's as if the approach here is to "get back" at GRG, for some undefined reason.
In sum: There should be no sanction/remedy as I have not engaged in discussion on the subjects for which a sanction/remedy is warranted. And, therefore, discussions on whether non-GRG sources should be considered for inclusion is a topic for which there are no restrictions.
As for his DIFFs...
1 was a good-faith edit, I reverted an edit to what I thought was the original edit as a discussion (the one I refer to) was on-going. He pointed out the error, and I made no further edit. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
2 discussions are on the subject Ricky (I believe it was him) initiated. If I am violating something for engaging in discussion, then surely Ricky, who initiated it, is too. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
3 Debating verification is not prohibited - the original decision was the one mentioned above - I'm not challenging GRG as a reliable source; I'm not arguing that GRG's Table EE is a reliable source.
4 He has made a what I consider to be an invalid line of reasoning, making a strawman argument by dismissing an argument I never made. Specifically, that if newspapers are "unreliable" as he claims I am suggesting, then how we can rely on them when they cite GRG/Guinness? But I've never argued the newspapers are "unreliable," just that they are not experts on the subject. Using his logic, if the New York Times cites a cancer expert, we can't say that that person, no matter his/her credentials, is an "expert" as the New York Times is not expert in the subject. I don't buy that line of reasoning, and that was not what I was saying. And, I never suggested we can only verify if cited by a paper, just that newspapers routinely cite GRG/Guinness, therefore they are considered (by media outlets around the world) to be experts on the subject. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
5 He says it is "false" that media outlets don't say a claim is "verified" without quoting GRG/Guinness. But he's never supplied an example of a claim being called "verified" without a mention of GRG/Guinness. I don't think he understood the point I was making. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
6 The quote simply states the obvious - they are considered by media world-wide as experts, so should we. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
7 As I pointed out repeatedly to Ricky, the section in question asked "Who is the world's oldest ever person?" I simply applied the "reliable source" argument - which is at the heart of the discussion here - to that case. It was a Reductio ad absurdum argument directly related to the "verification" and "reliable sources" issues. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
8 Again, as I earlier pointed out that, given the very criteria Ricky and others are proposing, this woman - Canadian Emma Laurent - would appear on this page even though she is three years older than who Guinness recognizes as the world's oldest. The point was to underline the consequences of the actions proposed - destroying the credibility of the page. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
9 Again, this is not debating what was resolved and for which there is sanction for discussing - that GRG is a reliable source; that GRG's Table EE is not a reliable source.
10 Ricky misrepresents the discussion at hand. The point was not whether Zhou was verified or not by GRG, the point was the only difference between the Laurent case and the Zhou case in terms of "verified" by "reliable sources" is that Zhou's article doesn't mention GRG/Guinness while Laurent's does - in saying Guinness doesn't accept the claim. He insists that this mere mention disqualifies Laurent for inclusion on the page and that the "non-mention" of GRG/Guinness in Zhou means it warrants inclusion. That makes no sense, as if Zhou doesn't appear on the Guinness/GRG lists, then they've not verified him either - so Ricky and others are employing a double-standard. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source.
11 Ricky made numerous false statements on the Laurent article (that Canada copied Haiti's verification of the case - there is no mention of that in the article; that Canada issued a passport on the strength of Haiti's information - there is nothing in the article which says that, indeed the word "passport" doesn't even appear; that the Toronto Star believes the claims is "not proven" when that was the description of Guinness's evaluation of the claim). The final claim is what the quote discusses - his contention that "not proven" means the Star has determined that and, by implication (given the out-of-context quote he used) The Star awards the crown of "world's oldest person," an obvious absurdity. This neither disputes that GRG is a "reliable source," nor argues for GRG's Table EE to be considered a reliable source. Canada Jack (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Canada Jack
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Robustly defending your position on an article talk page is not disruptive unless the user is refusing to be bound by the eventual consensus or disruptively edit warring to advance their position. I'm really not seeing enough disruption in Canada Jack's edits to merit any action unless there is a clear indication that they will behave disruptively in future. @Canada Jack: please can you put these concerns to rest by confirming that you will respect the consensus that emerges on verifiability and that you will not take part in further edit wars? Spartaz Humbug! 18:27, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
I was topic-banned from RT News for 6 months for "disruptive edits" and I challenge this assertion
Advice given by Ricky is good. I have reviewed the content of the appeal and see no basis for overturning it. NW (Talk) 04:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I was banned from both RT News and its talk page because I was supposedly creating "disruptive edits" by asking for scientific, verifiable proof that RT is a propaganda station, asking for studies or some sort of quantifiable data. Instead, I was topic-banned for "disruptive editing"; yet as anyone can see at the RT Talk page I was being very polite until one editor begun accusing me of having a fake account and of editing in poor faith. I think my topic-ban is extremely unjust, and I also call about admins to review the sources behind RT's page, as 'Daily Beast' and Tumblr have never been valid sources, and yet the admin who is attempting to lock debate on the issue of valid sources (he says that RT is "undeniably propaganda"--but that's merely opinion!) has nonetheless attempted to railroad the debate one way, in a way that makes RT look like some sort of propaganda channel, when there is no proof to this scientifically or in quantification. I ask that my 6-month topic ban be reviewed; It's truly unfair, and I received it all in an attempt to better Wikipedia and find good sources, (which reminds me another reason why Wikipedia is dying), which makes me not want to contribute very much here anymore (And I've been contributing, mostly to history-related articles, since 2012) if I'm going to be topic-banned every time I try and make a valid improvement, only to get railroaded by influential editors with admin friends. Solntsa90 (talk) 21:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
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