Minor4th
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Minor4th
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Alexbrn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Minor4th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
1RR violation:
- Yesterday: initial revert (@ 08:31, 20 December 2015) to modify lede to remove mention of "cancer", then today:
- revert @ 15:40, 21 December 2015
- revert @ 16:14, 21 December 2015 (note also a WP:CRYBLP in the ES)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This editor appears to want to remove the word "cancer" from the lede, and is edit-warring in pursuit of that apparent objective.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Responses to the statements of others
@Minor4th: Your statement makes it seem you think you have access to The Truth™ of this matter, and so can edit-war to correct what you see as an "error". I think you're wrong and your use of sources here is selective and muddled. But this is not the place for that content dispute (which continues on the article Talk page), but to address the question of your 1RR violation. Alexbrn (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@AlbinoFerret: We do not need a WP:MEDRS to tell us what a journal article claimed, since that question is one of textual interpretation, and obviously not a WP:BIOMEDICAL question subject to procedures like systematic review etc. However if you want a journal article than mentions "cancer" then check out the title of PMID 23430588. Generally, the medical literature uses the more technical caricno-stemmed wording, which we should translate into lay terms for our audience. Alexbrn (talk) 15:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Masem: You appear to be incorrect in saying Séralini avoided cancer claims. His paper mentions it has found "serious suspicion of carcinogenicity" and our 2012 Nature news source[1] tells us: "Séralini has promoted the cancer results as the study’s major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive". Alexbrn (talk) 17:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Atsme: I did not violate 1RR. I take it you know consecutive edits by an editor count as but a single edit? I would also question your self-designation as "uninvolved" given you've just been party to a case investigating problematic GMO editors. Alexbrn (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Minor4th
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Minor4th
General response to enforcement request
Diff #2 [2] provided in the OP is not a revert. It is an edit. The only revert in the 24 hour period by me was the single revert shown in Diff #3, wherein I also cited the BLP violation. There is no dispute that is a revert, and whether or not you agree that it remedies a BLP violation, it's only a single revert and does not violate the ARB restriction.
Clarification needed: If I am wrong about this, then I need someone to clearly explain how diff #2 is a revert. If that's the case then virtually every edit could be called a revert because nearly every edit changes some previous editor's work. If that's the rule then I'll abide by it, but that essentially means that editors can only make one edit (or several consecutive edits) per page per day in the topic area. I don't think that is what was intended.
Specific responses to comments
Alexbrn is edit warring in the word "cancer" in the lead contrary to the scientific sources - and that creates a BLP issue because he's attributing the conclusion "there's a strong link between GMO and cancer" to a scientist who did not make that conclusion. This is intentional to make the scientist look like a lunatic by falsely attributing outrageous claims to him. This is a prima facie BLP violation. Minor4th 17:45, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: I agree to self revert, but I cannot concede that "cancer" and "tumors" mean the same thing in this context because that is false. If the closing admin or anyone making comments here does not understand the difference between "cancer" and "tumor" in this study, then you don't understand the study or the science. And if you don't understand the study, you don't understand the whole underpinning of the "Seralini affair." One must be able to properly evaluate the sources in this area to edit with competency.
For reliable sources regarding "cancer" vs. "tumor", see the following related RS:
1. Retractionwatch [3]:
Seralini and his colleagues provide a timeline in the press materials of their version of events. One element in particular caught our eye:
Wallace Hayes wrote an article to defend his position that raises doubts about his understanding of the study and raw data. He mentions in his defense he was unable to conclude that “there was a clear link between GMO and cancer.” An obvious error of W. Hayes as the term “cancer” has never been mentioned in the paper of Séralini’s research team. And it does not affect any aspect of the research on Roundup.
Now, “tumor” and “cancer” are not necessarily the same thing. But the original paper certainly referred to tumors repeatedly, and Seralini, as Nature reported at the time,
2. Republication of the retracted paper [4], clarifying that the study was not a cancer study:
This study constitutes a follow-up investigation of a 90-day feeding study conducted by Monsanto in order to obtain commercial release of this GMO, employing the same rat strain and analyzing biochemical parameters on the same number of animals per group as our investigation. Our research represents the first chronic study on these substances, in which all observations including tumors are reported chronologically. Thus, it was not designed as a carcinogenicity study.
3. Nature [5]. This is the EXACT quote that Alexbrn proposed on the talk page when we started discussing this a couple of days ago, and now he is complaining that I am edit warring the word "tumor" in:
Séralini's team had found that rats fed for two years with a glyphosate-resistant type of maize (corn) made by Monsanto developed many more tumours and died earlier than did control animals. It also found that the rats developed tumours when Roundup was added to their drinking water.
(edited) Minor4th 21:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@EdJohntson - I was fixing a factual error, not just playing around with wording. Minor4th 06:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
' Kingifaces43's aspersions - Kingofaces43 is casting aspersions by calling my edits "advocacy" and describing me as being the subject of many warnings and disputes in this topic area. That is false on its face. Please look at Kingofaces43's continued aspersions against editors he doesn't like and how it promotes battlefield editing in this controversial topic. Sanctions against KOA are appropriate per DS. Minor4th 00:31, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Tryptofish - I have agreed to self revert and stated that I did not intentionally violate any editing restriction - but it's improper to ask for a concession on the substantive issue of whether "cancer" = "tumor." Minor4th 19:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem has evaluated the situation exactly right. Minor4th 19:55, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Montanabw has correctly described the edits and distinguished a legitimate edit from a revert. Minor4th 21:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by David Tornheim
Alexbrn is violating consensus. I will explain further after doing more research. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
AlexBrn is just as guilty of edit warring (see list of diffs below). But worse, he has attempted to edit-war in the cancer claims both without consensus and in light of misrepresentations about the study. The discussion continues on the Seralini page and the lede, a discussion I started here. Others are currently working together to try to come to a consensus decision (Tyrptofish here KingofAces43 here and me here). AlexBrn's claims of "consensus" like this, and this comment are not helping. AlexBrn's attempt to force in the language "claimed there was a strong link between genetically modified organisms and cancer" is not helping. The original study does not even mention any connection to cancer. AlexBrn correctly pointed out that the revised republished study does speak of a "serious suspicion of carcinogenicity"; however, the Abstract clearly states that the study "was not designed as a carcinogenicity study." And in the sentence before and after the quote about a "suspicion of carcinogenicity", it is reasserted that it is a toxicity study and not a full carcinogenicity study. The texts says a full carcinogenicity study "would be a rational follow-up investigation". (Republished Study) In responding to the Editor who was hired to retract the original published study, Seralini said:
- In fact you clarified your position in a statement published in FCT: “To be very clear, it is the entire paper, with the claim that there is definitive link between GMO and cancer that is being retracted” (Hayes, 2014). Yet we made no such “claim” in our paper. We drew no inference and made no claims about “cancer” ; nowhere did we claim a “definitive link between GMO and cancer”. It should be noted that tumorigenesis is not synonymous with cancer. Tumours can be in some cases more rapidly lethal than cancers because their size can cause hemorrhages and possible impairments of vital organs, as well as secretion of toxins.
AlexBrn's edit-warring in cancer claims without consensus and with disregard for misrepresentations about the study is in violation of WP:BRD:
- [6] Revision as of 07:27, December 20, 2015 -- AlexBrn added language "claimed there was a strong link between genetically modified organisms and cancer,"
- [7] Revision as of 15:44, December 21, 2015 -- puts the language back in after being reverted
- [8] Revision as of 16:02, December 21, 2015 -- again puts the language back in after being reverted.
--David Tornheim (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Re Mystery Wolff's post:
- I agree that Minor4th's edits are GoodFaith and should not be sanctioned.
- I disagree about GMO Page Protection. I do not believe I have sufficient space to explain why here.
--David Tornheim (talk) 08:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
For purposes of evaluating whether edits were reverts, I do not think that, in this context, it is useful to treat "tumors" as different than "cancer". (There are such things as benign tumors, but the source material here is about cancerous tumors.) I also think that we need to be careful about invocations of BLP. I'm no lawyer, but it is hard for me to believe that a successful defamation claim would result simply from saying that a scientific journal article made some conclusions about carcinogenicity; I suspect that the defamation was more about accusations of scientific fraud. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree strongly with Looie's comment about the need to start setting boundaries (in a dispute that I think is metasticising more than Seralini's rats). I also consider the special pleading that has been rife in this discussion, that maybe Seralini said that the tumors were benign tumors, and that that makes edit warring justified, to be a distraction. This isn't an AE about which sentence should use the word "cancer". It's an AE about disruptive conduct. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Looking back here, in terms of the advice from the administrator about conceding the point, it sure looks to me like no one is conceding anything, and that's all the more reason to set boundaries. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
This was not an accidental violation, IMO. For some reason that entirely escapes me, both Minor4th and David Tornheim seem to want to use technical jargon (tumour, mutagenic) in place of the plain English preferred by many of the reliable sources on which we base the article. The claim that this is a WP:BLP violation is without merit, since it is not our claim but that of the reliable independent sources (example). It's worth remembering that a significant part of the criticism of this study centres on its prior release to journalists via a press briefing. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the source of the link to cancer is Séralini himself - many of the news articles are, after all, illustrated with a photo of Séralini holding up a rat with cancer. Guy (Help!) 00:10, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Atsme: the diffs you present do not constitute more than one revert to the article. Nor are they problematic: they restore consensus versions following discussion on Talk, in each case removing POV WP:BOLDly added by one or more apparent partisans. Guy (Help!) 16:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@AlbinoFerret: MEDRS does not apply in this specific instance because we are not claiming that thr Séralini affair does or does not cure cancer, we are covering the Séralini affair as a drama that played out in the popular press, largely because of Séralini's media manipulation (dramas solely within the scientific press are rarely notable). We don't need a MEDRS to say how the popular press represented what they were spoon-fed by Séralini, to go back to what is defensible from the paper is fallacious precisely because Séralini's message, i.e. the Séralini affair, went far beyond what could be defended from the actual study results. Which is why the paper was retracted, and why we have the article in the first place. Guy (Help!) 13:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Looie496
This is now the fourth enforcement request derived from the GMO case, none of which have produced any action. Admins should consider that each violation that slips by will only encourage further violations, increasing the magnitude of the enforcement actions that will ultimately have to taken. Worse, it is likely that the violations that are ultimately sanctioned will come from editors who don't really want to violate the remedies but feel forced to in response to violations from others. In other words, failure to set clear boundaries is only going to end up hurting the editors you are trying to be nice to, because they are going to keep testing the boundaries regardless of how far they have shifted. Looie496 (talk) 13:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Capeo
The RS say "cancer" so cancer is what we should say. That's why we prefer secondary sources over primary ones. We need not reflect Seralini's equivocating that he never said cancer when his entire emphasis, and the impetus for the criticism and notability of this whole affair, was the cancerous tumors in the rats that he showcased more than any other thing. There's no BLP violation in following the RS characterization of the paper. Capeo (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Alexbrn already stated this but there's no MEDRS claim so there's no need for MEDRS compliant sources. This is about describing why the paper was controversial and what AlbinoFerret called a letter to the editor is actually the editor in chief of the journal describing why the article was retracted. A person more than qualified to contextualize the paper. And what AlbinoFerret calls gaming is usually called consensus. Capeo (talk) 15:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, this isn't an article about the paper itself. It's and article about the controversy surrounding it and the main cause of the controversy is that, despite Seralini's equivocating, the paper connected GMOs to causing "cancerous" tumors, which is wording Seralini has used in interviews on his own web page. This connection was reinforced by Seralini himself as the tumors were the emphasis of his own press releases. The fact that he backed off on it after being called on it has no bearing on what caused the controversy itself. Even the republished paper is still loaded with pics of rats with tumors despite his claims and he rightly got called out about it yet again. Capeo (talk) 16:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
And I have to laugh that people are talking about MEDRS when a retracted paper republished in a zero impact journal isn't a MEDRS in the first place. Capeo (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, the paper has zero scientific notability at this point and falls firmly into WP:FRINGE. Its only notability is the reaction to it connecting GMOs to cancer. The article already mentions that Seralini claims he never said cancer. Generally speaking we need to mention why this event is even notable in the first place in the lede before anything else. That's aside from the fact that Seralini says things like " In our study, we never mentioned the word cancer, because there were tumours, which varied from more or less cancerous." [9] That doesn't even make sense. And Seralini outright claims the very WP:FRINGE POV that his paper proves GMOs are toxic and cause tumors. This isn't a scientific topic. It's purely fringe and should be treated the same way we treat other fringe topics. Capeo (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, it says nothing about it being a "cancer study" and makes no claim that is was. It says simply what the RS say, which is the only reason it is notable, which is that it connected GMOs to cancer, which is what we should say. That can then be followed up with Seralini's denial and why RS completely rejected said denial due to Seralini's own sensationalist emphasis on the tumor results over all else. Tumors he himself called cancerous. Capeo (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
This is actually from the retractionwatch source Minor4th posted above. They note Nature reported that Seralini "has promoted the cancer results as the study’s major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive that began last month and included the release of a book and a film about the work." Capeo (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by AlbinoFerret
Looking at the sources, a letter to the editor, a news article in a journal, one in the popular press. I question if these pass WP:MEDRS because the sources are coming to a biomedical conclusion (cancer). Are there any MEDRS sources that use the term cancer? This is also a problem mentioned in the Workshop, multiple editors reverting. Sadly the abs didnt put a stop to multiple editors jumping in and reverting. What it ends up doing is editing by mob rule, whoever has the biggest group wins instead of discussion. That is gaming the system. AlbinoFerret 14:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Alexbrn As pointed out in Masem's post below, The original paper did not mention cancer. Sources coming to that conclusion should be MEDRS compliant. AlbinoFerret 17:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingofaces43
In addition to the reverts and gaming of BLP described here, there are also violations covered by pseudoscience/fringe discretionary sanctions.[10] Those sanctions deal with behavior issues closely tied with content. Improper escalation (such as this BLP invocation) is also covered in this related case. Even in Minor4th's section above and the article, they have violated WP:OR in the manner they have tried to argue that reliable sources are "WRONG" from personal opinion and trying to unduly validate the WP:FRINGE point of view of the BLP subject.[11] The events of the controversy are already accurately described by multiple reliable sources even without WP:PARITY in mind.
Especially given the variety of issues here they are still digging in on (and lack of enforcement so far in other cases), we've reached the point at least with this editor that the time of warnings being useful has long passed considering they've followed drama on this topic for awhile now. We need the sanctions to be enforced to stop disruptive behavior like this or remove editors with ingrained problems. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just a note that Atsme below is highly involved in following the drama on this topic being extensively involved in the ArbCom case, especially after many editors involved in WP:MEDRS and fringe topics tried to deal with their problem behaviors at fringe BLP topics (e.g., [12]). Not directly involved in GMOs per se, but highly involved in purusing editors that have tried to deal with their behavior problems at ANI, etc. in the past. Peripheral editors like this are a problem in this topic (as seen by the number of people that come to GMO enforcement cases), but I'm not sure if or how that can be handled. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I'm not going to engage your behavior issues here further [13][14] However, those issues[15][16][17] are going to be mentioned when you claim yourself to be uninvolved when inserting yourself into topics at ArbCom or noticeboards related to editors you have been very involved with dealing with your behavior. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:56, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, the key detail you missed was that Seralini did try to make the association to cancer, both in media interviews after publication and within the paper (i.e., waving around a bunch of pictures of rats with tumors with no controls or statistical tests). When a WP:FRINGEBLP is criticized for their actions and they backtrack contrary to actual events that they never said something, we don't give that point of view any weight at the article or here at this board. The characterization that Seralini did not try to portray a link between glyphosate, GMOs, etc. and cancer is distinctly a fringe point of view.
I'll also ping @EdJohnston: to read the above since they've been pinged recently about Masem's summarization. Additionally, we so far have a few policy violations by Minor4th, some of this case being muddled by the fringe content aspect, and comments like Atsme's that are trying to go after Alexbrn for responding to Minor4th's advocacy in a reasonable manner. We're in a situation where some editors will push and push the line, and other editors will go after the editor who tries to respond to that in these boards. I don't have any solutions for that, but any thoughts on how to potentially handle this situation we've had in the last few requests here? Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
I am an uninvolved editor regarding this article. I don't edit articles involving GMOs, etc. but I do edit BLPs. I ask that the admins who are following this case to please make note of the following before drawing their conclusions:
ALEXBRN REVERTS (uses TW to avoid individual reverts which also needs to be noted, and also uses rather evasive edit summaries to diffuse attention to the fact he is edit warring and changing the context of a statement):
It appears Alexbrn has also violated 1RR and has established a patterned behavior of edit warring. Just look at how the edit history plays out which is why I can't understand why Minor4th has been targeted as the sole violator:
- December 21st
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 16:14, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 16:03, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 16:02, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 15:44, December 21, 2015
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 15:40, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 14:53, December 21, 2015
- December 20th
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 23:38, December 20, 2015
- (two in-between edits by another editor)
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 13:27, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 08:31, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:34, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:32, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:27, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:02, December 20, 2015
Thank you for attention to this matter. Atsme📞📧 16:27, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Admins, your attention, please
The diff Kingofaces included to discredit me was unwarranted and worse, based on a false allegation of me being a SPA in an old AN/I case. My edit history has long since proven my purpose on WP and that the allegation was false and unwarranted. I tried to get ArbCom to address his behavior but since it was not within the locus of the case, they dismissed it. I have not mentioned his name in this incident prior to now so why is he allowed to besmirch my reputation, and attempt to discredit my statement here as an uninvolved editor? If it's not considered bullying, it is certainly harassment and actionable behavior either way. He has been warned more than once, but because he keeps getting away with it, he keeps bringing it up. Ignoring it does nothing but embolden him all the more, and that isn't what should be happening right under the noses of multiple admins. Please stop his disruption and attempts to divert attention away from this very important case. Atsme📞📧 21:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Kingofaces, your harassing me does not make me an involved editor but it does draw attention to your bullying. I'd offer you a backhoe but you're digging a pretty deep hole without one. Atsme📞📧 23:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, since you are the admin overseeing this AE request, please take the appropriate action against Kingofaces for his unwarranted attempts to intimidate me by dredging up diffs that have no relevance to this case, and that clearly demonstrate his intention to besmirch my reputation. According to WP:Civility, such behavior is actionable, especially when it is repeated over and over again as Kingofaces has done...and he's doing it right under your nose. Atsme📞📧 23:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG, with all due respect....as I've been advised by an admin in the past - even if you believe you are right you cannot edit war. As you know, the number of reverts are not a requisite for an editor to be blocked for edit warring,[18]. It's rather obvious who made the most edits/reverts/changes and created a battleground, and it wasn't Minor4th. Also, Kingofaces violated WP:CIVILITY policy by dredging up diffs in his relentless attempts to besmirch me and diffuse my participation in important discussions. The fact that his behavior continues to be ignored is shameful, especially at this venue, and is beginning to smell a lot like the stench of bias and double standards. Atsme📞📧 19:27, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Alexbrn whether you violated 1RR doesn't really matter. Admins know the rules about battleground, gaming strategies, group support, and the like. I'm simply stating facts and presenting diffs to support them. You were edit warring, and doing so is just as actionable as violating 1RR so there is no need to belabor or argue the point. Furthermore, your strawman argument that I was named in the GMO ArbCom case has nothing to do with your battleground behavior at the Seralini BLP. I never edited that article - you did. My recommendation here is a good trouting for the edit warriors, and an iBan against Kingofaces for his unconscionable behavior toward me and his aspersions against Minor4th on this noticeboard, not to mention other venues. He has a serious issue in that regard, and it will require admin intervention to correct it. Atsme📞📧 20:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Masem
Reviewing the base situation from someone uninvolved with GMO articles, but otherwise able to look at the scenario from a scientific viewpoint:
- A professor, whose past publications and statements have appeared to make him critical of GMO, publishes a reviewed paper that from lab studies that certain GMO products cause rats to develop more tumors and die sooner than control specimens. The paper appears to purposely avoid attaching the word "cancer" to the results.
- The paper on publication is criticized by many third-parties (attracted by the established aspect of the professor's criticism of GMO), claiming that the linkage of GMO to "cancer" (their words) was not shown by appropriate scientific methods. The paper is ultimately pulled, even with the editor-in-chief commenting on the claim about timing GMO to cancer.
- The professor restates that his paper was not a cancer study, and before it was pulled, has the work amended to make this clear.
While "tumor" and "cancer" may be synonymous in some areas (such as everyday language one might use with friends or family), this seems like a matter of scientific precision in a hotly contested area (GMO) and the need to distinguish between the two (as the professor apparently took steps to do and had to clarify this), even if others in the scientific community felt the tumor study was really an obfuscated cancer study. So for our article to claim, factually, that the professor wrote a cancer study is not appropriate. It's an edge case of BLP, as we are putting other people's words to speak for the professor's intentions when he has made it clear in verified manners of what his intent was (not a cancer study), even though we are otherwise not talking about specific claims about the professor himself that BLP normally covers. It is still is fair to include the fact that other scientists took the paper as a cancer study and thus were very critical of how the study was done that they saw the linkage of GMO to cancer, but in introducing the paper for the first time in the lede and in the body, it should not be called a cancer study if the professor has been very clear this was not the intent. Even if every other scientist in the area commented that the professor's paper was a cancer study but the professor remained insistent it wasn't, we should still be respecting the claim of the professor first followed by the claims by everyone else to stay consistent with BLP. If anything this is more a situation that falls under WP:YESPOV, where we clearly have a controversial statement (if the paper was a tumor or a cancer study), so there's a proper way to approach this.
In terms of the actions of the editors, I do think that the BLP issue is there, but it is very much an edge case which did not need immediate attention as most BLP violations typically require but instead more discussion and possibly more eyes on it. Actions by both editors should be at least trouted and warned against, particularly as at the time across these changes there was an active discussion. --MASEM (t) 16:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
(Moved replies to Capeo and Kingofaces43 to User:Masem/GMOcaseComments due to statement length)
Statement by uninvolved MarkBernstein
- Masem is correct: the distinction between "tumor" and "cancer" is indeed significant, and is not merely semantic evasion. I have not reviewed the paper or the subsequent literature, but if Masem’s review is correct, @EdJohnston:’s preliminary conclusion cannot be.
- With respect, I disagree with JzG that we should prefer “plain English” to technical terms such as “ tumor" and "mutagenic". Jargon should be avoided where possible, but precise language is sometimes necessary. Evidence has been presented that the test animals developed tumors, but not that these tumors are in fact malignant; it makes sense that the article reflect this until the question is settled.
- You can’t settle this without assessing the scientific evidence; if you try, you may embarrass the project.
- As other editors have said above, you can’t punt the issues indefinitely without nullifying the GMO decision. The latter might be the best course of action, though this is probably not the place to do that.
- Does misstating or misrepresenting -- perhaps unintentionally -- the conclusion of a scientific paper written by a living person violate BLP? I cannot think that it does, reserving possible exceptions for malice and for unreasonable or incredible distortion. If scientific articles are to be simultaneously edited by experts and by laypersons, misunderstandings will arise. Do we want to place every scientific and engineering topic under discretionary sanctions? A considerable portion of the technical literature, after all, is written by people who are currently living.
- 1RR as currently understood may prove unfeasible in contentious technical areas. As JzG demonstrates, one editor may reasonably perceive a merely semantic distinction where another editor perceives a substantive correction. This invites games of gotcha.MarkBernstein (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Montanabw
Looking at the history and the current version of this article, it appears that Minor4th made an appropriate correction and it was the other user who was edit-warring and attacking Minor4th. Minor 4th made an edit, was reverted and then restored the edit -- that was an edit 1RR, not 2. I think that a warning should suffice on this one, as it is clear that NPOV and proper phrasing of a BLP trumps other matters. Montanabw(talk) 18:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Mystery Wolff
I am now familiar with GMOrganisms and related pages from this AE page due to my short time needing to check it for another article set. Reading the comments I believe I agree most with Montanabw above, except I do not believe Minor4th should be warned because its not 1RR. Also 1RR is such a tight standard good faith NPOV and really minor edits, should be allowed. The BLP points are also well taken.
But what I really think is that what I will call the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly solution should be deployed. WP:[GBU]?
In the movie of the same name North and South are fighting over the same bridge, each day, lots of deaths, no progress, cease fires to clean up the bodies and rinse and repeat. The only solution to stop the carnage and deaths, was to blow up the Bridge.
This situation is just going to keep on going for GMO and related. So I think the Admins should just agree to blow up the bridge, and put in Full Protection of the entire set of articles. Then on a once a week move schedule, an admin will move into the articles, the agreed upon changes out of TALK. Nothing is going to be earthshakingly different that article and the outside readers won't benefit from a more stable viewable article.
Its just far to big of an Enclopedia to see these same topics coming back and back to AE. 3 times in 2 weeks, at least for GMO. And just like GBU, there seems to be more and more bodies that can get banned for GMO. Just blow up the bridge. Take away the thing they are fighting over. You can generated more ARBs more AE's and more methods to techically bypass the DS and warnings. Or just blow up the bridge, send to full protection. Given the science and controversy I don't think it will every come out of Full Protection, but that is OK, because of the sheer time savings to all.
Summary: Send to full protection.....Blow up the bridge per WP:GBU. Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning Minor4th
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
The difference between 'cancer' and 'tumor' in the lead doesn't appear enough to justify Minor4th's claim of a BLP violation. Even if you insist that 'cancer' should be 'tumor' the first time around, the word cancer still appears multiple times elsewhere in the lead, and also appears in the title of one of the references provided (Arjo et al):"..an in depth analysis of the Séralini et al. study claiming that Roundup™ Ready corn or the herbicide Roundup™ cause cancer in rats". Since Minor4th is only tweaking the wording and not fixing a factual error, this series of edits is just a plain 1RR violation by Minor4th. A block should be discussed unless Minor4th will concede the point. EdJohnston (talk) 01:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- The 1RR rule is established to allow quick action on simple violations. Since the complaint has been open for five days there is no more chance of a quick action. Our article on the Séralini affair article doesn’t put Séralini in a good light. It passes along the published criticism to our readers. The reverts that were submitted for admin action in this complaint don't change the overall verdict much, so the intensity of the brief revert war seems out of proportion to anything that could be gained. This request should be closed with no action. All parties should be aware that continued edit warring won’t be tolerated. EdJohnston (talk) 06:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- I generally concur with EdJohnson, including his last sentence. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:23, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek-personal attacks and incivility
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Volunteer_Marek
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer_Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- You are warned that further comments which constitute personal attacks or incivility, such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anna_Politkovskaya&diff=680892973&oldid=680890853 this will result in a block or other sanction. This is a logged warning issues under the discretionary sanctions authorised by the Arbitration Committee's decision on Eastern Europe (which you are "aware" of due to this alert). The procedure to appeal this sanction are here. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)] :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- congratulations, you just managed to turn the article into an even bigger piece of POV crap than it already was 22:37, 22 December 2015 Hostile and insulting description of another users edits, that is unconstructive and incivil
- Can the POV get more ridiculous? , Gimme a fucking break. Can you at least pretend that you're trying to be neutral here? , “And also note that the edit stupidly leaves the "against Hungary" 22:45, 22 December 2015 Hostile attack instead of trying to discuss the issue, from start confrontational and incivil, uses swear words to attack another editor, calling his edits stupid
- false edit summary which claims that it just "add source with quote" (please don't lie),You are using false edit summaries to hide the fact that you are doing nothing else but edit warring 22:02, 22 December 2015 Accusses other editor of lying, obvious incivility
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Was warned about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 21 July 2015
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
VM has been warned several times about being incivility he engages in with other editors and personal attacks. He was warned by admin twice to stop being incivil and abusive towards others. In the past I have requested this as well several times[19],[20]. The above examples are only recent. If required I can provide examples going back a month or more.This is an ongoing and persistent issue.
While there will be always disagreements about wording of article, sources or content, such disputes should be done in civil way worthy of encyclopedia. Shouting at other editors, using swear words, naming their edits as crap goes against this principle. VM was warned to stop being incivil and attacking others and in my view he violated his warning in the examples I have provided.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [21]
====Response to Bishonen====:
Like MastCell, I might have used different words than VM, but I'm against sanctioning editors for speaking impatiently to those who try to degrade content, or for using swear words.
Volunteer_Marek was already sanctioned and warned due to his incivil behaviour by an administrator earlier. Hence I am calling for enforcement. This is not a single slip or incident.It is an ongoing issue that VM has been asked time and time again to correct( I believe I asked him to stop this three times at least).He constantly acts incivil and offensive towards others,and this is a behavior that has been going on since years(links can be provided if requested).
As I mentioned earlier-due to this he was warned earlier to act in civil way way by an administrator-twice and warned that incivility and personal attacks should stop least he be blocked.
If he or you want to appeal his warning and removed from sanctions lists-be my guest, that's fine. But here I am asking for enforcing an already existing sanction, not making a new one.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Update:
To prove that this is not a new thing and result of ongoing incivility, please see my edits over the years where I have asked VM time and time again to stop personal attacks and incivility. I am also posting my comment from last November where I have pleaded for him to stop, and that I will be forced to ask for official intervention if he continues the attacks.
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to Kingsindian
This is a transparent attempt to win a content dispute using this board Please see my links above. VM has been engaging in such behavior for years. I have asked him to stop already last year in November and stated that I will have to ask for official intervention if he doesn't cease.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Edits by VM since this request has been filled
Since this request has been filled Volunteer_Marek has engaged in edits that were incivil and personal attacks
- Yet, you show up here a month later, trying to poison the well, and try to start up a little lynch mob. I cannot but conclude that you are just holding a grudge over... not sure what exactly. It's exactly this kind of petty behavior This is an incivil comment and personal attack against another user.
Again a personal attack.If the user is indeed a sockpuppet, then a proper procedure should have been requested to confirm this, instead of resolving to personal attack. I believe both examples to be in violation of his sanctions. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Volunteer_Marek
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Volunteer_Marek
1. The edit describes the article, i.e. content. One might disagree with the assessment (I do wish there was a template which said "Unfortunately, currently this article is crap" that could be slapped on appropriate articles but alas!) but feigning offense and trying to use that to win a dispute is far more disruptive than the use of the word "crap". And yes, the article was bad to begin with. MyMoloboaccount, who has never edited this article before (AFAIK) jumped in the middle of my attempts to fix it, because of the dispute we had at another article, Economy of Poland. I believe this pretty much defines the concept of "revenge reverting"
2. Well, for this one you just need to actually see the comment itself. Here is the diff again [25]. MyMoloboaccount changed text ""The Warsaw Pact's largest military engagements were aimed against its own members—in 1956 against Hungary and in 1968 against Czechoslovakia" to the obviously non-neutral "The Warsaw Pact's largest military engagements were aimed at internal security of member states during 1956 against Hungary and in 1968 against Czechoslovakia" (describing the bloody repression of the Hungarian uprising in which thousands of people were murdered and tens of thousands repressed and tortured as "a matter of internal security" is not only tasteless, but obviously POV). The edit also made a grammatical mess of the sentence and resulted in a statement which contradicted itself. I'm sorry but this is pretty much the definition of over-the-top POV pushing and calling it what it is is perfectly warranted.
3. MyMoloboaccount did in fact use the edit summary "minor changes" [26] (and [27] here again) to ... "label", edits which were non-minor, and in fact were a pretty blatant attempt to POV the article. Here is the relevant exchange on talk (which for some reason MyMoloboaccount failed to link to - wonder why) in which he tries to evade the question and continues to pretend that his edits were "minor". The conversation clearly indicates lack of good faith on the part of the user. In my time on Wikipedia, this kind of behavior has been generally regarded as extremely disruptive and dishonest and has quickly led to a block, especially when done by an editor who's been around for a long time and should know better. To make highly POV changes and hide them behind false edit summaries, and then complain when someone points out that your edit summaries aren't exactly 100% kosher, really takes some chutzpah.
MyMoloboaccount repeatedly edit warred to reinsert text which misrepresented sources - even after I've asked him about it several times on talk. And even after I've explicitly pointed out to him that the text misrepresented the sources. And even when I asked him point blank about which part of a particular source was suppose to support the text. The relevant talk page discussions (or actually, lack thereof, on the part of my MyMoloboaccount) are here (note lack of response), here (basically evading the question) and here (same as the diff above - but note that here I am forced to ask the same question for the third time without a response).
The above discussions clearly indicate WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior on the part of the user. For the record, this kind of pattern has been noted before by others, for example by User:Iryna Harpy (for example here and here, there's more though it might take a bit of time to find it). Likewise, this isn't the first time that MyMoloboaccount has tried to misrepresent sources on Wikipedia (see here and here for detailed explanations). Dealing with such a user, although they pretend at "civility", is extremely frustrating and it is a textbook example of someone who is not engaged with the project in good faith and is in fact... well, driving people crazy, with WP:CRUSH.
Also, for the record, it should be noted that while the user MyMoloboaccount may appear to have a fairly clean block log [28], the actual block log, in all its full page glory is here. The lack of blocks between the new and the old account has to do with the indefinite block that was in place in between (the indefinite block which was lifted after, I'm sorry to say, to a significant extent because I personally argued for its lifting because I believed that MyMoloboaccount/Molobo deserved a second chance. No good deed... like they say) (or maybe that was a bad deed, I didn't realize it at the time, and now I'm just getting my comeuppance?)
Anyway, Happy Holidays and Wesolych Swiat. Volunteer Marek 09:01, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@Spartaz. Ok, look, Spartaz, do what you think is appropriate and whatever it is I'm not going to hold it against you. I've been on Wikipedia a long time and I've donated a lot of my free time, which I value highly, to the project. The way I see it, I'm doing Wikipedia a favor by editing here, not vice versa. Of course Wikipedia drives one crazy. The backstabbing, the gratuitous lynch mobs, the lying-with-the-straight face and most of all the thick thick hypocrisy, all more than present in this request and its comments. I realized long time ago that the only way I could continue participating here is by approaching in a way which did not implicitly accept, perpetuate and enable all of those things, in as straight forward manner as possible. Not bullshiting people but not tolerate all the bullshit that falls in one's lap either. So yes, my comments are always direct and to the point, I state my objections explicitly, I express my frustration when someone's obviously not acting in good faith, and I speak the way that grown ups in the real world speak (yes, even in professional settings). Of course this being Wikipedia people will try to use that against you to win disputes and as a way of furthering their agenda. Shrug.
So no, I don't think I made any "personal attacks". I used words which some people will try and pretend they find offensive. I was critical of another editor's editing behavior. But neither of these are personal attacks. Saying to someone "you POV'ed the article" is NOT a personal attack and you won't be able to find a Wikipedia policy that says so. Maybe I didn't put it in the most diplomatic way possible but so what? If I had said "you're a bad person because you POV'ed the article" or some version of that THAT would've been a personal attack. But calling people out on their atrocious behavior and disruptive editing (and I'm sorry but MyMoloboaccount WAS blatantly misrepresenting sources, using false edit summaries and then playing coy about it and pretending they didn't know what the issue was) is not a personal attack and in fact, given how Wikipedia works, it is sometimes necessary to actually improve article content. Volunteer Marek 17:03, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- @LjL - why are you here? This has nothing to do with you. About a month ago we had a dispute on an unrelated article. You violated a 1RR restriction on it repeatedly and I pointed it out to you. You kept claiming "consensus" on the article where really the matter was still being discussed. You say I "defied consensus". Total baloney. I disagreed with *you*. And what eventually happened? I left the article alone and let you have your way because I decided it simply wasn't worth the effort. The current state of the article, AFAIK, reflects your point of view. How is that "deifying consensus"? Yet, you show up here a month later, trying to poison the well, and try to start up a little lynch mob. I cannot but conclude that you are just holding a grudge over... not sure what exactly. It's exactly this kind of petty behavior that makes Wikipedia a social wreck and such an extremely unpleasant place to contribute at.
- Wasn't there a restriction on WP:AE reports (originated by User:Sandstein or User:Future Perfect at Sunrise IIRC) which forbid uninvolved parties from showing up to pursue grudges, clutter up the discussion and form little "peanut galleries" (their words, not mine) on these reports? (basically the same thing applies to User:Erlbaeko who's also here opportunistically to pursue grudges and as a way of getting an upper hand in an unrelated dispute (which is/was under mediation). God, I sometimes really hate Wikipedia.) Volunteer Marek 20:01, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@Flashout1999 - It's ridiculous to say that I am "harassing" MyMoloboaccount when in fact they were the one who followed me to the article in the first place, because of a disagreement we had on another article. If anything, it's the opposite.
Likewise, your claim that the section heading "Can the POV get more ridicoulos?" (sic) is a "personal attack" but a section heading "POV in the lead" is not doesn't hold water. They both say the same thing, one is just in the form of a question and the other one is not, and neither "attacks" anyone. It specifically points to problems with content.
You are mistaking strongly worded criticism of article content and user behavior with "personal attacks". These are not the same thing. One more time - saying "you POV'd the article" is not not not not not a personal attack. Never has been, isn't now and probably (it's Wikipedia, so who knows?!) never will be. Disagreement are likewise not "personal attacks". Volunteer Marek 20:53, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
And actually let me add a little bit here to my response to Flashout1999. MyMoloboaccount repeatedly restored text which misrepresented sources and also made obviously highly POV changes with misleading edit summaries ("minor changes"). The proper response to my objections, which I made on talk, would have been to correct the misrepresentation of sources and if they felt something was missing, or if they felt that a particular piece of text was actually true (just not in that particular source) would have been to go out there and find new sources and faithfully paraphrase them. This is not MyMoloboaccount did. They just kept restoring the existing problems via blanket reverts. Yes, they did add some new sources but these were generally misrepresented just like the previous ones (the Crumb one in particular).
On the other hand, and to your credit, your response was more or less what I outlined above. You did go out and get new sources (the state department etc., although the History Channel one was a dud) and you appear to be open to discussing how to reword the text to make it NPOV.
This difference actually illustrates both the problem with MyMoloboaccount's approach and the proper approach. MMA, instead of doing the work necessary to find compromise and improve the article decided upon a wording which suited their POV first and then tried to pretend that sources supported it. Didn't really discuss the issues. When they didn't get their way, they came running here, to WP:AE, as a strategy of "winning" a dispute with allegations of "incivility" and lack of good faith (to quote User:Collect "The person who most frequently speaks about assuming good faith is least likely to assume (or act in) good faith.") That's often a very good sign that the person who's complaining about "incivility" is on the wrong end of the actual underlying *content* dispute. Because that's the only "argument" (and not a good one) they got. See also WP:CRUSH.
So, anyway, whatever the outcome of this report, and whatever else you say about me down in your section below, I do want to thank you in particular for taking the right approach to improving the article and if I was overly harsh in my criticism of you I apologize. Volunteer Marek 21:04, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to MyMoloboaccount's newest allegations
This is just diff padding and more of the same. At best these diffs just show that MyMoloboaccount has tried to use this tactic before, when confronted about the POV nature of their edits. Let's go through'em, shall we?
Ok, let's go through the diffs provided by MyMoloboaccount in the para beginning with "To prove that this is not a new thing and result of ongoing incivility..."
This diff provided by MMA is just a message he left on my talk page. What edit of mine is he responding to when he accuses me of "incivility"? This one. What I said is, quote: "crap source - the guy says that increases in poverty CAUSE increases in GDP". I called a ... crappy source, crap. If you think THAT is incivility, I really got nothing to say to you. It was a crap source and pointing that out is perfectly fine.
Then there is this diff, which is also MMA coming to my talk page and accusing me of, this time, "following him around". Ok, let me try to figure out what the hey he's talking about........ July 17....... Here at least is the full conversation (at bottom) which basically shows that this was MMA being passive-aggressive. Let's see, I said something (on my talk page) about that being an absurd accusation [29].
Hmmmmm. In July of 2014, the only article that both myself and MMA edited was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Now, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 actually crashed on July 17 of 2014, it was of course all over the media and the article had been just created. There was a lot of activity on it. I made edits to it - and over the next several months I did a lot more work on the article than MMA who's only contribution was throw in some POV text right at the beginning. I can't remember who edited it first but who cares. Previously MMA had been following my edits around to the articles on:
- Unemployment in Poland (my first edits were right after the article was started on 6/3/14, MMA showed up shortly thereafter to edit war on 6/5/14),
- Balcerowicz Plan (I made edits in August of 2013, as well as 6/5/2014 - MMA showed up shortly therafter, same day, 8 hours later, to edit war) and
- Poverty in Poland (I made edits in March of 2013 - when MMA and I got into a disagreement on another article, MMA switched over to this one to undue my changes out of revenge)
This is why my response to MMA's comment about me supposedly "following him around" was... well, let me quote it in full, because it applies to the Warsaw Pact article now as much as it did to these other ones then: "I do sincerely hope that you have enough self awareness to realize how absurd you sound above."
MMA had spent a few months following me around - EXACTLY the same as with Warsaw Pact article - and then had the chutzpah to come to my talk page and accuse me of doing that.
If that doesn't convince you that MMA is a tendentious editor who tries to WP:GAME policies and win disputes which they cannot win based on sources by threatening, falsely accusing, and spuriously reporting people I don't know what will. And yes, just like he misrepresents sources in terms of content, he misrepresent editors he disagrees with in noticeboards such as this one. Volunteer Marek 23:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and I love that MMA is complaining about this edit of mine. Completely different topic area. Race and Intelligence. Which as anyone who's even dipped their toe in that topic area knows is overrun with sockpuppets and meatpuppets of blocked and topic banned users, who keep trying to use these articles to push racist garbage POV. In this particular instance an essentially brand new, single purpose, red-linked account changed the text so that descriptions of 19th century racist thinkers idea read as facts. Yes, the account was basically using Wikipedia to write "Black people are dumber than white people" (instead of "Racists *believe* that black people..."). Of course it was dressed up, the SPA account was perfectly "civil", there was some sources tacked on to it to make it look legit and of course the response was "discuss on talk!!!". But at the end of the day it was just racist garbage. I am not going to apologize for that edit nor am I going to apologize for that edit summary (in fact, I toned it down from what I originally wrote because I had a sneaky suspicion someone would try to use it against me). Again, this just shows that MMA has a very Machavallian attitude to editing Wikipedia where they're willing to use ANYTHING to win a content dispute.
- (Btw, since I made that revert, I've had five different users thank me for it, including User:Maunus, who's probably the most veteran of the veteran editors in that topic area, as well as User:Caballero1967 [30]) Volunteer Marek 00:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Caballero's Comments
- My comments here are in relation to my thanks to User:Volunteer Marek's editing work here. The article is a subject intimately familiar to me since I have taught it in graduate courses for four years already, and have published about it. Before User:Volunteer Marek intervened today I had written about my concerns with the ideological changes taking place in the article's Talk Page. And User:Volunteer Marek was bold, yes, but direct and correct in his manners. When the user making the disruptive changes asked him to edit the changes rather than blank them in full, Marek's response was right and to the point: there is nothing unbaised and nothing to edit. So, it may be that Marek's is a bold editor, but his work (up to what I have seen), is not easily matched. Caballero/Historiador (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Erlbaeko
Note that the same pattern of personal attacks and incivility can be seen in other articles/topics. See e.g. Talk:Ghouta_chemical_attack/Archive_6#same_ol.27_POV_pushing_which_just_won.27t_stop. Also note that I notified him about Syrian Civil War sanctions on 27 August 2015, ref. diff. Here Volunteer Marek attacks an editor saying "Will you please stop lying so blatantly?" I would not have had a problem with that if it was a lie, but it is not. I checked the statement and it's only slightly inaccurate. I replied here. I see no justification for that attack, and no apology was ever given. Erlbaeko (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also note that Volunteer Marek attacked the new editor on the article here by calling him a "brand new throw away accounts to help out in the edit war", and here by insinuating sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry (without any convincing evidence). The editor has explained that he is a Wikipedia veteran here and documnets that he started editing 7 and a half years ago here. Erlbaeko (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Update: To clarify a bit. I don't see the attacks itself as a big problem. We all make mistakes from time to time and I don't care to much about an attack or two or some rough language. The problem is the pattern of lesser personal attacks that continues throughout a discussion despite warnings (as in the discussion I linked to above). It is when that pattern is used to disrupt progress toward improving an article it became a problem, and that problem is called disruptive editing. It is like he is living after the Paul Krugman citation on his user page: "As the old lawyer’s line says, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if the law is on your side, pound the law; if neither are on your side, pound the table. I’d add: and demand “civility.”. I am afraid he will continue to "pound the table and demand civility" if the behavior is allowed to continue. Erlbaeko (talk) 13:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
@Arthur Rubin: Do we want to continue? I don't know, but I do. I don't see no justification for your 1 week block for "actions on Warsaw Pact, commented on at WP:AE". Ref. Block log. Here you said it was due to "discretionary sanctions for Eastern Europe". What excatly did you block him for? Erlbaeko (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by LjL
I have also been at my wits' end with this editor, but eventually I decided to do nothing about it. But given that finally I'm not the only one wanting to complain, I'll add diffs for things that had seemed to show WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF issues, with my emphasis on them (but honestly, other behaviors from this editor were more of a burden to me, yet it's trickier to put them together to clarify the situation):
Can you stop being dishonest? There is NO "overwhelming consensus" as you claim above. You're making shit up. There is NO "clear consensus" as you claim above. You're making shit up.
[31]For fuck's sake, this is suppose to be an article about a terrorist attack IN FRANCE, which killed more than a hundred people IN FRANCE in a greatest tragedy since WWII. It is NOT about Poland's politician's hang ups about refugees from Syria. It is NOT about your own personal hangs up about refugees from Syria. How about we keep the article on topic that it's actually suppose to be about rather than go off on POV tangents to pursue personal political agendas?
[32]LjL, MyMolobboaccount, EVEN IF you guys were right about previous consensus - which you're not, you're making shit up - my last edition concerned an official statement [...] MyMoloboaccount shows up and removes it. I undo. LjL jumps in to edit war just because. And then you claim consensus for that too. Please stop being ridiculous.
[33]
Note that the "consensus" the editor challenges in the above quotations was repeatedly established, and summarized here, and he was virtually the only editor disrupting it. LjL (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- I do, like Kingsindian, also wonder what exactly MyMoloboaccount, the OP, was now blocked for (without notifying this discussion, even though he was purportedly blocked because of it), since neither the block log nor the talk page notifications seem to make it very clear what edits caused the block (I do not see obvious edit warring in the involved page's history). I think it would be appropriate at this point if the blocking admin, Arthur Rubin, made a statement here. LjL (talk) 15:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Arthur Rubin: thanks for your statement. I am concerned that you seem to be looking at the specifics of the content dispute rather than administrative issues. I don't really feel qualified to comment about Warsaw Pact specifics, but if I were an administrator I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable blocking on such content disputes... especially while the blocked user has an outstanding arbitration enforcement request against the other party, and that is a very administrative issue where any civility issues with Volunteer Marek can be gauged (but you're choosing to stay away from that administrative concern). All I really know is that Volunteer Marek has defied consensus in not-very-civil manners before, and so far, the complaining party has been blocked instead. I think Spartaz or any administrator looking at this ought to keep that in mind. LjL (talk) 16:08, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Flushout1999
- I can confirm the bad behavior from Volunteer Marek. However I believe this talk page [34] speaks by itself. He managed now to make it a total mess creating new sections not related to the content which should be present in the main article, but just creating them in order to attack the other users along his personal opinions. Also he avoids persistently to discuss reliable sources' content which are not according to his personal beliefs, starting to apply denigratory labels, being uncivil and keeping to say that there is a "misrepresentation" as an excuse to revert entire paragraphs, while never providing links nor going into details (like making at least some citation) in despise of the most common editing discussions rules, as the ones reported here [35]. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 16:18, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just to be clear: In my opinion that particular MyMoloboaccount's edit on the lead was not good at all, but not that bad to justify VM reaction which as been disruptive at least. This could have been solved in a very easy way as the new edit [36] from Kingsindian shows.
- VM attitude in the talk page as been rather uncivil, rude and degrading the talk to a WP:BATTLEGROUND creating messy new sections with titles aimed only at attacking MyMoloboaccount personally. ("Can the POV get more ridicoulos?" should have been titled something like "POV in the lead" for example).
- In my opinion his behavior could qualify also as repeated offensive behavior aimed to target a specific person (MyMoloboaccount) with the purpose to make him feel threatened or intimidated (which however did not happen).
- Now that other users like MastCell are justifying these kind of personal attacks, incivility and offensive behaviors towards the other editors, only because one just don't like what he perceives as a different point of view from his, this is really disappointing to me and this is for sure the most undesiderable outcome here in wikipedia, that everyone starts to feel excused when treating the others in a belittling and insulting way only because they have different point of views, while instead is very easy to discuss civilly, achieve neutrality in the article and solve issues if one just wants to.
- Also I don't understand MyMoloboaccount block, he made a single bad edit (perhaps misunderstood), we are now going to block people only because of a single bad edit? -- Flushout1999 (talk) 20:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek I'm sorry Marek but here I am going to disagree with you. First: disagreements are ok, to discuss them incivilly and just in order to intimidate the others is not. Second: who is the one that is really following the other? For example, my first edit in the Warsaw Pact is at 23:08, 29 July 2013 [37], yours is at 21 October 2015 [38] and you came only to revert my old edits [39] while in the same moment you deleted all of my old edits in The Harvest of Sorrow [40] while discussing there with me. As the two articles are totally unrelated, this means you took a look to my contribs and then you engaged in a ravaged deletion of my past edits you disliked (and you even used the excuse of "suspect copyvio" in the Warsaw Pact article. My source was not an english book, so I could not copy anything, in that case I had rewritten all in my words). I tell you, I perceive (and I perceived) this not only as a form of WP:HARASSMENT but also as WP:WIKIHOUNDING made towards me.
- But I'm glad you now realized we could perfectly discuss in a civil way and understand each other, we could have it done that also in that occasion. I believe that if we all take in consideration each other thoughts and we respect each other than a solution is always available. For example see this: Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent, perhaps me too I am still not able to do that, but probably Wikipedia is all about this. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
This is a transparent attempt to win a content dispute using this board. All three descriptions by MyMoloboaccount are seriously misleading. VM's conduct on the talk page is not ideal, but MyMoloboaccount's conduct is as bad or worse, which directly led to VM's conduct.
The major diff is here. By no stretch of imagination can this be called "minor changes", as stated in the edit summary. This alone should raise doubts about MyMoloboaccount's conduct.
Let me first point out the kernel of the matter. The Warsaw Pact was in part a reaction to NATO. That is not all that it was: historical events rarely have a single cause or motivation. There were plenty of nefarious motives as well. The writing on this issue needs to be nuanced. The Laurien Crump source is accepted by all sides as a good source, and it needs to be presented carefully.
Let's now go through the diffs:
- The first diff is a description of the article. Anyone who has worked in any contentious area on Wikipedia knows that many articles are POV crap. Whether or not that is correct in this instance, this is hardly an offence.
- The second diff, contrary to MyMoloboaccount's account, "instead of discussing the issue...", indeed discusses the issue, with some rather minor incivility. The edit made by MyMoloboaccount was indeed atrocious.
- In the third diff, the problem is that text which was disputed earlier, was reintroduced with a misleading edit summary by MyMoloboaccount. The actual issue, minus all the heat, is that a nuanced version of the text can be written which is supported by the sources.
In such topics, people have their own POV. It is unavoidable. People have to work together in spite of this.
By the way, why is MyMoloboaccount blocked? The block log says something about AE, which I can't fathom. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am afraid Arthur Rubin crucially misreads the edit made by MyMoloboaccount. The statement does not say that the purpose of the Warsaw Pact was to protect the internal security, but that the major military engagements were to protect internal security, which is a rather different thing. The stated purpose of something need not coincide with the actual use of the thing.
- Also, the term "internal security" often refers to the security of the regime, rather than security of the population. This is the way in which internal security is used routinely in political literature. See this, this and this for examples.
- That said, the edit made by MyMoloboaccount was very POV and certainly not "minor" (again a misleading edit summary). There is also a larger point. Are we now blocking people based on POV pushing? I would then suggest that a large portion of the editors in Israel-Palestine or Eastern-Europe area should be blocked then. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 20:10, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- My own viewpoint is that it was not OK to block MyMoloboaccount based on one edit, which the blocker misread anyway. POV-pushers are ubiquitous in any contentious area on Wikipedia. If there is a pattern of misbehaviour by MMA then it should be presented before acting like this. Regarding conduct by all parties, my own viewpoint is: I see plenty of discussion of actual content on the talk page, mixed with the odd incivil comment. The latter is not ideal, but nobody behaves like a saint all the time. I don't see anything too bad. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:13, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Arthur Rubin
I cannot see this edit by MyMoloboaccount as being in good faith; the claim that the Warsaw Pact was intended to support internal security of the nations involved is contrary to fact and to the wording of the Pact. The pact was written as to protect external security of the nations, and reliable sources suggest the secondary reason was to protect the Soviet Union against threats from the other signatories. (I'm not sure the references to West Germany are sourced. I don't want to get involved in editing the article.) The statement must be considered Soviet propaganda, and propaganda (except as opinion) is not permitted on Wikipedia.
I am not commenting on Volunteer Marek's alleged incivility. However, if addition of propaganda is considered WP:vandalism, VM should not be cited for edit warring, as removal of vandalism is a permitted exception. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:06, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- If I were to investigate all of MyMoloboaccount's diffs, I would probably suggest a topic ban from (at least) Warsaw pact, and all actions taken by the Soviet Union under the Pact. Do we want to continue? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MastCell
@Spartaz: For what it's worth, Marek is right. Now, I would probably use different language: I would say that Flushout1999 (and Mymoloboaccount) are tendentious editors who are systematically and somewhat dishonestly degrading the quality of our article on the Warsaw Pact in service of their political agendas. Marek would say that they're turning the article into an even bigger pile of POV crap than it already was. Both of those are true statements.
I suppose the proper response to this complaint comes down to a philosophical question: which is the bigger threat to Wikipedia as a serious, reputable reference work? Dishonest, agenda-driven obsessives, or people who lose patience with them? My personal view is probably evident from my framing of the question. MastCell Talk 06:50, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Maunus)
Editors should assume good faith - untill that becomes impossible. Likewise, editors should use civil and courteous language - but should not be excessively punished when their patience is put to the test by long-term blatant, tendentious editing. (Note that I don't know Mymoloboaccounts editing patterns, but refer to the POV pushing that VolunteerMarek reverted at R&I)·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Volunteer_Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'd like to hear any justification/explanation Volunteer Marek can offer for those diffs. At first look they appear to be clear personal attacks and incivility and breaches of Cannanecc's warning. Spartaz Humbug! 09:04, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- My comment appears to have crossed with the statements.
- Diff #1 - Its a more than a bit disingenuous to say you were describing the article when your edit summary is clearly aimed at MyMoloboaccount. This looks like a clear violation.
- Diff #2 - Gimme a fucking break. Can you at least pretend that you're trying to be neutral here? Clearly personalising a discussion and at the very least this skirts the civility policy - depending on how tolerant you are of swearing. To me, its too strongly worded and sweary.
- Diff #3 - Nothing actionable here IMO.
- The rest of VMs statement is attempting to tar MyMoloboaccount rather than addressing his own behaviour and has been ignored. My judgement is that this actionable and that a block and TB are appropriate. I'd suggest 24hours and a 1 month TB from eastern European areas. Other options are of course available.... Spartaz Humbug! 09:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Like MastCell, I might have used different words than VM, but I'm against sanctioning editors for speaking impatiently to those who try to degrade content, or for using swear words. Defending tendentiousness by combing the opponent's posts for bad words is one of the oldest tricks on Wikipedia, and I'd like to see a boomerang here. Bishonen | talk 21:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC).
- My general take on this situation parallels Bishonen's, and I don't see any value to either blocking or topic-banning Volunteer Marek, although despite how strongly he feels, I do think it would be better if he toned down some of the language, in order to avoid distracting people from the merits of his positions. On the other hand, while I understand why Bishonen makes her "boomerang" suggestion, I suppose an AE report that another admin has found merit to can't be categorized as frivolous on its face. So subject to others' input, I would close with no action at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
930310
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning 930310
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Legacypac (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- 930310 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [41] Voting Keep on an effort to consolidate, arguing that it is easier to compare info on separate pages
- [42] Voting against Wikipedia policy on RS and for the GRG being exclusive "verified" source.
- Date "the anti-supercentenarian crew AfD-nominated.." (us vs them mentality)
- [43] "Updated article due to repeated destruction of article by User:Commanderlinx"
- [44] Updated article due to repeated destruction of article by Commanderlinx
- [45] Undid revision 692532327 by CommanderLinx (talk)Undid vandalism
- [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Margaret_Ann_Neve&diff=prev&oldid=692526144 (Undid revision 692422449 by CommanderLinx (talk)Undoing destruction)
- [46] (Undid revision 692337985 by Legacypac (talk)Destructive edit undone)
- [47] This is the most ridiculous crap I have ever heard. (on an SPI)
- [48] It's more like some POV-Pushers have been more actively caballing and canvassing to scare off neutral, third-party input. This particular comment by you, EEng, reflects a long-standing pattern of edit-warring and battle-grounding on this subject. 930310 (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- [49] starts ANi thread against a "group" of editors and gets no sympathy. Says "I propose that a topic ban regarding longevity related articles is given to both of them since they are obviously only out to destruct articles about longevity and show clear disrespect for the deceased by saying things such as the ones mentioned above."
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Participated in the ArbComm case relevant here [50]
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [51] on talk page in Aug 2015
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [52].
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Editor is a long term, single purpose account only editing in the Longevity area. They disrespect other upstanding editors as seen in the diffs and edit summaries. They tried to have 2 to 5 editors topic banned at once in ANi and the idea of boomarang was raised. The off Wiki canvassing and spas continue to be a major problem in this topic, but at least we can use these discretionary sanctions to topic ban POV pushing editors like this one that pretty consistently argue against Wikipedia policy. Regularly specifically names and agrees with recently topic banned editor Ollie231213 [53] and engages in the the same abuse toward policy. Thank-you for your consideration of this report. 11:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Response to Alansohn's allegations
- As an editor that enjoys cleanup (including Neelix, pageants, and recently longevity) and editing ISIL (also a DS area), I've attracted more then my fair share of attacks at ANi, 3RR and even a failed effort to brand in SPi by POV pushers and edit warriors. I don't maintain a tombstone list, and am not always successful in XfD, 3RR reports etc but there have been thousands of deletes/redirect effected based on my nominations. I continue to edit with a clean record while people that see me as an opponent end up blocked, topic banned, etc. I've also never been interested in off wiki coordination. Perhaps a case against Alansohn should be prepared next for he also engages in the same agenda pushing behavior as Ollie and 930310 Legacypac (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Canvassing: One editor below was sent here to comment by a recently Longevity topic banned editor [54] while another is discussing this case with the same topic banned editor [55] in evident violation of that editor's topic ban. Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [56]
Discussion concerning 930310
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by 930310
- Statement 1 Hardly surprising that this user goes on an attack towards me as well. There are so many instances of you having done this because of users you don't like so I won't even bother with making any comments to protect myself towards this nonsense. I have been a user on Wikipedia for almost ten years, and if people check my history I did not register or was a SPA back then, which I am not now either. So how can I be nominated for being such? I post or edit where I feel like and currently longevity related articles are my main interest. Is there anything wrong with having interests? 930310 (talk) 12:50, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Statement 2 Regarding some of the examples used as evidence against me:
- 1. Disagreeing with another user is certainly not against Wikipeda policy, and in fact, if we look at a number of LegacyPac's "efforts", he is receiving widespread opposition.
- 2. It's actually LegacyPac who is violating Wikipedia policy by not paying any attention to WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:VALID, and WP:WP:BESTSOURCES. To quote from the latter: "Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available, helps prevent NPOV disagreements." It's quite clear from looking at other reliable sources that the GRG is considered an authority on the subject. Arguing that Wikipedia should reflect this is ABSOLUTELY NOT a violation of policy. Read this, it explains the situation perfectly.
- 3. Actually, loads of other users have openly admitted that this is a "them Vs us" situation. See here.
- 4. All I did there was improve an article.
- 5. Ditto.
- 6. I apologize for this. One shouldn't call policy-based edits "vandalism".
- 7. Ditto.
- 8. In this instance my actions were justified since LegacyPac removed sourced information because he disagreed with what was written in the source. A clear violation of WP:OriginalResearch.
- 9. I could have been more tactful here. The argument for suggesting I was a sockpuppet was however very weak.
- 10. The anti-GRG editors (as mentioned above) have made a clear and concerted effort to "prune" longevity articles (see here), and in a number of cases, they have received widespread opposition from uninvolved editors (here, here, here, here, here, and here.
- 11. A number of uninvolved editors have expressed frustration at the actions of the anti-longevity editors.
- 930310 (talk) 13:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Being a SPA, which I do not consider myself to be, is not against Wiki-policy. The reason as to why I am editing longevity-related articles is because I am interested in them. I have explained clearly why I believe that I am acting in line with policy. What specifically have I done that is in violation of policy? 930310 (talk) 19:23, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EEng
The user's contribution history practically defines "SPA". [57] [58]. Not visible via those links is fact that his/her userpage and sandbox were for years two of the many WP:FAKEARTICLE/WP:NOTWEBHOST longevity lists that have finally purged: Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:930310 Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:930310/sandbox. EEng (talk) 13:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
It's worth remembering this Arbcom finding from February 2011:
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#WikiProject_World.27s_Oldest_People_urged: WikiProject World's Oldest People is urged to seek experienced Wikipedia editors who will act as mentors to the project and assist members in improving their editing and their understanding of Wikipedia policies and community norms.
That didn't happen, which is why the mess continues. SPAs' lack of experience in the wider project continues to plague discussions. EEng (talk) 02:07, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Alansohn
These allegations regarding 930310 -- together with the more disturbing result above regarding User:Ollie231213 -- are clear examples of what comes off as a rather clear tag team mentality by both User:EEng and User:Legacypac. The instances cited here of "edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it" are examples of Orwellian thought crimes. Just take the first two examples:
- Voting Keep on an effort to consolidate, arguing that it is easier to compare info on separate pages
- Voting against Wikipedia policy on RS and for the GRG being exclusive "verified" source.
Both of these are examples of situations where 930310 challenged one of the mass of repeated AfD nominations by EEng / Legacypac, cited relevant Wikipedia policy and now have this used as "evidence" against them. I can't even figure out how either of these can be viewed as violations of policy under even the most strained view of Longevity-related policy violations. These are quintessentially appropriate votes in each case.
The repeated SPA allegations from EEng appear to be intended as a provocation, in the same manner as what was done to Ollie231213.
Any objection to boomerang nominations for EEng and Legacypac? Alansohn (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
@JzG - In describing this as "a clear case of SPA vs. Wikipedia" you have prejudged the matter without justification. The diffs offered are run-of-the-mill examples of rather ordinary back and forth discussions, at worst. In no example is any of the required policy violation offered, nor is any consideration given to the rather belligerent harassment and provocation by both EEng and Legacypac. If you're proposing a topic ban of any length, offer the community some specific example of what the basis is for this use of administrative authority. On the contrary, a look at the history stats for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Australian supercentenarians shows the tag team of EEng and Legacypac with 42 of the 97 edits -- more than 43% of all edits to the AfD -- where edits by EEng and Legacypac include:
- "No. Are you paid to make nonsense posts intentionally misinterpreting common English words?" by EEng
- A SPA tag bomb by Legacypac that included several experienced editors
And this is just a taste of what's to come. The problem here is the tag team. A permanent topic ban on LegacyPac and EEng will solve 99% of the battleground mentality, baiting and provocations taking place at Longevity-related articles. Alansohn (talk) 21:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by 7&6=thirteen
I concur entirely with Alansohn and his reasoning. Eeng and Legacypac have incessantly waged a war of attrition on longevity-related articles. It is the WP:PROD of the day. And Legacypac at least got nasty when others try to derail their express train. So much so that even Eeng told him to cool his jets. Topic banning ought to be last resort. I for one have basically avoided the topic, not for lack of interest, as I am afraid of affronting The Red Queen, as we have "discretionary sanctions" with little or no warning or guidance as to what is expected. You can shut off all dissent. Or if you are applying sanctions you should do it even-handedly, whatever standard it is that you are applying 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:27, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JaconaFrere
Legacypac has been on a tear at AfD, belittling other editors who vote keep on any longevity or pageant articles while removing other editors fairly passive statements as personal attacks, and accusing experienced editors such as 7&6=thirteen single-purpose editors because they opposed their position on an afd. A boomerang for Legacypac is in my opinion long overdue. Jacona (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by David in DC
930310 offers this thread for the proposition that there's something wrong with efforts to prune the longevity walled garden. But the thread proves something quite different. I started the thread on the WOP wikiproject page in an effort to get the logjam resolved by cooperation and consensus. Please review the thread carefully. The chirping of crickets after my initial posting and subsequent plea for dialogue is telling. David in DC (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ricky81682
One has to ignore the greater dispute here and focus on the actual editors involved. I don't particularly find Legacypac and EEng's prods and AFD campaign entirely perfect but I think the overall consensus following each one of their listings is at least some level of support for their policies. I suggest someone filing separate AE requests on them if they find it prudent. As to 930310, we tend to disagree, but I think his/her conduct here is sufficient for a limited topic ban to see if the editor can work outside of this area at the moment. 930310's comment at the SPI, note that the SPI was originally titled Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/930310 and only later moved when 930310 was found unrelated to the other editors, a proposal that I supported. While not perfectly civil, the comment would be something I would expect from anyone tagged with an SPI report basically naming everyone who voted keep on a single AFD discussion. 930310's comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kathleen Snavely (2nd nomination) was in part a procedural speedy keep based on the month-prior closure of the same AFD. That isn't necessarily objectionable to me, as I can imagine a number of other editors with the same mindset just based on the timing of the AFDs. However, the ANI complaint (which admittedly names me as well) is about the same issues that permeate this entire AE request, namely the proposals to prod and take pages repeatedly to AFD. The fact that 930310 is so emotionally tied to these articles that listing their biographies for deletion (or discussing the concept) is considered "disrespectful" makes it difficult if not impossible to have any objective discussions about them. I suspect we'll have more AE disputes as the topic ban discussions can go here rather than at ANI which is probably a bit better. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@Alansohn: I don't think AE works for boomerang nominations as JzG notes below. If you want to propose sanctions requests against the nominator and others, new sections should be started. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning 930310
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is a clear case of SPA vs. Wikipedia. Regardless of any issues with the filing party (which should be addressed via a separate request if people feel so strongly about it), the involvement of SPAs has been highlighted as a specific issue with the walled garden of articles around longevity. A topic ban for 930310 is entirely in line with policy and the arbitration finding. I propose a TB with appeal allowed after 3 months if 930310 makes significant contributions outside of the contended topic area. Guy (Help!) 13:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Winkelvi
Nothing left to do here. T. Canens (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by WinkelviWithdrawing this request since the ban has now been withdrawn by the filing administrator -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC) No discussion from sanctioning administrator, no questions asked, no AGF, no response to my follow-up comments; I feel the admin qualifies as involved; sanction is for a BLP and related topics, however, complaint from admin is not about the article but discussions with the article subject as an editor; I believe the issue can be solved without a sanction. Statement:
Statement by BishonenRick Alan Ross has learned during his time on Wikipedia to use the proper channels to express concerns about his bio, and seems quite resilient to reasoned criticism. But I can only imagine how unpleasant it must be to experience the treatment W has been meting out to him, and after several bootless warnings I felt compelled to step in. Having a Wikipedia article about oneself at all is surely a dubious pleasure, a fortiori for people who are at all controversial, and we ought to be careful not to make it nastier than it has to be. I have responded here on Winkelvi's page, in detail and with diffs, to several of the claims Winkelvi makes above, for instance the claim that he has only been talking about "RAR the editor, not the article subject". W may feel that, or remember it like that, but it's not how it has come across. It's only a small topic ban — from one bio — which I should think will make little practical difference to W's editing, as he has lots of other interests on Wikipedia. But presumably that's not what upsets him; it's that he feels it's a stigma ("a black mark"). I can certainly sympathize with that, and it's a common feeling about any sanction. Winkelvi, would you rather make an informal undertaking from yourself to give RAR a wide berth — to avoid referring to him at all? I think that's the form the "self-monitoring" you suggest ought to take. It shouldn't be something like "I'll be nicer to RAR", IMO, because you obviously think you already are being sufficiently nice to him, and you have been unresponsive and often downright angry when several editors have urged you to act and talk differently. I'd be quite happy to rescind the ban if you undertake to leave RAR alone on your own responsibility. (It's enough if you say it here; no need for anything more formal than that.) Indeed, I can remove the ban from the discretionary sanctions log, if you like. It's not a mysterious technical thing like the block log, but merely a list that anybody can edit. It may be verboten to remove a listing, but I wouldn't mind trying and seeing what happens. Please think about it. Bishonen | talk 17:00, 26 December 2015 (UTC).
Statement by involved Cullen328On April 9, 2009, the Wikimedia Foundation passed a resolution calling on all volunteers at WMF projects to treat "any person who has a complaint about how they are described in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect". As Bishonen has shown, Winkelvi has adopted a consistently belligerent and confrontational attitude toward BLP subject Rick Allen Ross, who has had legitimate concerns about our biography of him. Winkelvi has persisted despite several warnings by other editors. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:19, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by marginally involved CollectI first saw the BLP at the BLP/N noticeboard - and I sought to depuff what appeared to be improper puffery, to word material in a neutral manner, and to try to make the negative material conform with WP:BLP. [61] and the like. WV repeatedly added [62] a "COI" tag to the BLP long after RAR clearly had ceased any edits on the BLP. While it is clear that RAR does call it "my" BLP, it is a matter of common sense that he was referring to the BLP about himself, and not asserting any editorial ownership of the BLP. WV, alas, seems to regard RAR as some sort of enemy of the state ("He is trying to sanitize the article on him. This has been pointed out numerous times by several editors. Why it isn't obvious to some is a puzzle, indeed." and "Ross isn't a contributor. He's the subject of an article he's trying to control" indicate a teensy bit of adversarial view). Where a person takes an adversarial view about a person who is the subject of a BLP, it is likely wise for the community or an impartial admin to impose restrictions on them. Collect (talk) 14:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by largely uninvolved BlackmaneThis was the most recent ANI thread concerning Winkelvi and RAR. In summary, WV sought to have RAR topic banned from the article but observations from commenting editors indicated that RAR was in fact compliant with the various relevant policies. A topic ban was proposed by another editor but was soundly rejected. A block of RAR was also proposed but also soundly rejected. WV's behaviour in the thread descended quite rapidly until Drmies closed it with no action. It wasn't pretty, so a topic ban from the RAR article was a fairly light sanction all in all. Blackmane (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved FigureofnineI became aware of this situation because I watchlist Winkelvi's user talk page. We are emphatically not wikifriends, and I have found his behavior problematic in the past. However, in this instance, while I am not endorsing his conduct in this matter, I feel that there is an important principle here that may be overlooked. My reading of the discussions is that Winkelvi has a problem with Ross as an editor, not as the subject of this article. Now, perhaps I have overlooked something to contradict this impression, but that is my observation. I do not believe that Ross has necessarily done anything wrong either. Since seeing this issue arise I have gone to the article talk page and interacted with him. He seems reasonable. He is the subject of an article and understandably is sensitive and concerned about it. Indeed, I found that there was one inaccurate rendition of a source, which I corrected at his request. However, I urge all admins involved to carefully distinguish between whether Winkelvi has behaved in an untoward fashion toward the subject as the subject, or as an editor. We run into these kinds of situations sometimes in COI situations and I think that distinction is important. I think that such Tbans should only be applied when is antagonism to the subject as the subject, not because the editor feels that the subject is behaving poorly as an editor. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:26, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Just to be crystal clear: I am not endorsing Winkelvi's actions. What I am suggesting is that his actions be viewed as directed toward a fellow editor, not toward the subject. If penalties are warranted (I am agnostic on that), they should be dealt with as offenses against a fellow editor. I have my own neutrality concerns regarding the overall approach of the article, and have started a discussion on that point. The talk page discussion has tended to get stuck in micro-issues. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:02, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by Francis SchonkenSupporting Bishonen's action without further ado. I'm involved (although usually quickly bored with the topic area, as I explained elsewhere before). I think what R. A. Ross (that is the subject of the article, and the talk page editor) needs is a somewhat more impartial introduction to how Wikipedia works, overcoming former obstacles which after ten years of anon and other frictions seem well underway to become more manageable. Winkelvi's efforts are largely outside that dynamic, rather preferring to send the subject on a wild goose chase than actually address issues the Wikipedia way. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:57, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by WinkelviI'm not sure what Winkelvi understands by Result of the appeal by Winkelvi
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HughD
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning HughD
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- [[63]] :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Dec 21st HughD was told on December 11th by {U:Ricky81682} that the Watchdog.org topic was part of his topic ban. For violating that ban his Tea Party, broadly construed topic ban was expanded to all US conservative politics 2009 and later. The WP:TBAN guidelines state that a topic ban covers "a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic." Asking for an RfC that HughD created on the page that resulted in his expanded topic block looks like discussing the banned topic.
- Dec 23 Citizens United vs FEC is a topic that falls within conservative politics. The article makes mention of conservative groups on a number of occasions including the group "Citizens United". The case was brought before the USSC in 2009 and decided in 2010. Thus the date of the case is within the topic ban. The subject is conservative politics.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- Aug 28 HughD topic-banned from "any articles involving the Tea Party movement broadly, including but not limited to anything at all related to Americans for Prosperity, Koch Industries, the Koch brothers, for one year."
- Oct 11 After AE request, HughD warned that "further violations of the TBAN will likely result in a block (even if just minor)."
- Oct 29 HughD blocked for one week "following editing on Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity." An appeal of this block was declined at AE [64].
- Dec 11 HughD informed that the TBAN was expanded to all US conservative politics 2009 and later, broadly construed.
- [65] WP:BLUDGEON admin Ricky81682 regarding limits and justification of TBAN.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Editor's sanctions were expanded less than 2 weeks back.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[[66]]
Discussion concerning HughD
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by HughD
Thank you to my good colleagues Guy and Ed for your comments. Of course I would welcome an opportunity to apologize for and strike any edit which a consensus of my colleagues agree is a topic ban violation.
- "Regarding the first diff: he is asking for someone to close an RfC about watchdog.org that he himself opened." I started an RfC at Watchdog.org 8 December, before the topic ban expansion, but I did not request a close. Prior to the RfC, three threads of preliminary talk page discussion were started by colleagues informally collaborating on improving the coverage and neutrality of article Watchdog.org, threads representing successive refinement of the content eventually proposed by the RfC. On 7 December, prior to the RfC, involved editor Paid Editor 009o9 requested a formal closure of these three threads that clearly did not need closure let alone formal closure. As per WP:CLOSE, "Many informal discussions do not need closing." Significantly, Paid Editor 009o9 failed to notify of the request for closure at article talk. 20 December I noticed the unusual request for closure among the backlog at WP:ANRFC, and commented in hopes of an WP:ANRFC patroller archiving the request for closure and helping reducing the backlog. In summary, the record is clear that I did not request a closure of an RfC (and neither did Paid Editor 009o9).
I see the request for closure is still there at WP:ANRFC, sigh, so my effort was in vain.I apologize to the community I did not anticipate my good faith attempt to help clear a spurious request from our WP:ANRFC backlog might be considered a topic ban violation. I would be more than happy to strike my comment there, particularly if someone would be so kind as to come behind me and click archive the ill-advised request for closure. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- 29 December the pointed, disruptive request for close was archived without action with a comment "per Hugh's comment above these weren't RFC's. There appears to be no reason to apply closes." Hugh (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I understand well Citizens United (organization) is in scope, but I did not edit it; not so obvious to me is that a US Supreme Court case, Citizens United v. FEC is in scope, and even less obvious to me is that a WP:MOS issue with an abbreviation in an article title is in scope. I did not edit Citizens United v. FEC article space; I weighed in to an ongoing article talk discussion regarding an issue of style in favor of expanding the abbreviation in the title of the article from FCC to Federal Communications Commission for the benefit of our readers. I believe in good faith that this comment is specifically authorized by the bullet 4 of WP:TBAN, which empowers conscientious topic banned editors to continue to contribute to our project, including to those parts of articles which are not within scope. The style issue of whether or not to disambiguate FCC in the title of the article cannot be considered by reasonable persons to be directly related to American conservative politics. If a consensus of my colleagues agree I am mistaken, I will gladly apologize to the community and strike through. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you to my good colleague Fyddlestix for their prodigious accounting below, it means a lot to me, thank you for your time. At this time I would add just one diff: an administrator of our project asking the complainant to cease his harassment 18 October 2015; my preference would be a separate filing focused on complainant's harassment. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 06:15, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
There's no love lost between me and HughD, but I fail to see anything actionable in the diffs provided. Guy (Help!) 01:41, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ricky81682
While the request to close the RFC on a violating page is a violation to me, I'll agree with EdJohnston that striking the comment is sufficient. Citizens United is one of the key decisions that relate to Tea party politics and to conservative politics 2009 onward, so I agree that it's also a significant violation and hopefully striking the comment will be sufficient too. As to point 5 under the previous sanctions, those types of antics are typical for HughD in response to sanctions and while annoying personally and while I would just prefer HughD bringing his/her concerns here, the refusal to do so is not a violation of any sanctions. Absent that, I think more aggressive blocks are necessary. HughD did not discuss or specifically dispute the sanctions directly and instead badgered me enacting them without a direct request that they be re-considered. This kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior has not lessened as time as passed. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Fyddlestix I agree that Springee's actions are sub-optimal to put it mildly. HughD at least seems to be trying to calm that down by making a fair request that Springee's comments on HughD's talk page will not be responded (which is his right) and Springee seems more intent on antagonizing him. I was just alerted to possible canvassing concerns by Springee by User:Scoobydunk who has in the past been against Springee's conduct and say pro-the side of HughD (not directly in favor but you get my point). The problem is being used by either side to get the other side banned for political reasons (or let's say to allow for or to stop editing that would either improve or worsen how these articles look if one was a partisan actor, not that anyone is). It's pure WP:BATTLEGROUND antics all around. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:12, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Springee As I stated on my talk page, this and this does not help this ARE discussion. I'd suggest you immediately stop anything further about it and drop it. As to anything further, a separate AE request could be made about Springee but that's best for another day. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
William M. Connolley That conduct is standard behavior for HughD whenever he is engaged in an RFC, namely removal and reorganization of the comments of others, and repeated responses with passive-aggressive statements hounding some, thanking others and requesting that they depersonalize or deescalate or whatever the situation. I was first involved with HughD and enacted the first sanctions due to his conduct and chaos at two dual simultaneous RFCs at Talk:Americans for Prosperity for the same request which involved not just one extensive ANI discussion but two of them at the same time. The same issues persist since August. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:49, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
HughD has clearly been testing limits for a while. On Dec 22nd-23rd this editor violated the 3RR rule [[67]]. HughD is particularly bad about engaging in topic page discussions vs acting on the article page. I have had a number of disagreements with HughD. They boil down to both a bludgeoning attitude and a refusal to engage on the talk page and gain consensus vs just acting. Even when he is posting on the talk page his comments are often not meant to discuss. Since I'm far from an uninvolved editor my views should be seen as such. I would suggest Ricky's POV be given a lot of weight in this discussion. HughD is an editor who will certainly push the rules again and badger admins again if he is unhappy with rulings against him. Springee (talk) 04:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Reply to Fyddlestix: Please note that since the unsuccessful ANI was brought against me regarding HughD I have largely not interacted with him on any work. The only direct editorial interactions I've had are related to his attempt to improperly include a Mother Jones article into a large number of WP articles ("The Dirty Dozen of Climate Change" which HughD has inserted into about a dozen articles") which dates to before the failed ANI in question. Hence you are seeing a large number of interacting WP pages though they are all related to a single topic. Looking thought my edit history since October (ie about the last two months) I see only three editorial interactions for all of November and all were related HughD attempting to reinsert a MJ reference against the limited consensus of a NPOVN and RSN discussion in three of the previous articles [68],[69],[70]. All edits done without talk page discussions on HughD's part. The talk page interactions here [71] are again related to the attempted insertion of the same MJ article. You will find the same thing with the December interactions. My posts on his talk page recently (other than the two notices which are required) was short and simply asked him to self revert a 4RR posting. If there were a large number of interactions on new subjects I would agree with Fyddlestix views (I think Fyddlestix is a very level headed editor) however, in this case the interactions have been limited to a single, previous topic which HughD has inserted into many WP articles. Springee (talk) 08:38, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Fyddlestix
I've been watching these two users interact for a while, and am getting increasingly uncomfortable with the extent to which Springee seems to be out to get HughD.
Springee has reported HughD to various noticeboards multiple times [72][73][74][75][76] and has himself been previously reported at ANI for hounding HughD [77]. There's also the issue of Springee having followed HughD to a large number of pages [78][79][80][81][82][83][84][85][86][87][88][89][90][91][92][93][94] very often to either revert or tag one of HughD's edits within a few hours of it being made. There would be even more examples there if I were to include talk pages, such as this review of one of Hugh's GA's, which I can't fathom how Springee would have come across other than by stalking HughD's contributions. Note also that HughD recently banned Springee from his talk page [95], and that Springee has since made three posts to Hugh's talk [96][97][98] (2 of these were a notice of Springee creating a noticeboard report against HughD).
I have no comment on Hugh's recent edits/actions (I've tried pretty hard to tune the squabbling of these two users out), but it's clear to me at this point that Springee is just not going to be satisfied until they succeed in getting HughD blocked. Personally I believe an IBAN is way past due here, but that's up to the admins - I'm posting now just to make sure that commenting admins are aware of the long-running animosity between these two users, as I believe it's relevant context here. Fyddlestix (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Arthur Rubin
This is not the first (or, second, or, third) time Hugh has pushed the edge of his topic ban(s). If he had struck the comments among his first actions after (or, preferably, before) commenting here, I would recommend against further enforcement action on this complaint, in spite of the fact that I feel his edits are harmful to Wikipedia's neutrality. However, he only offered to strike; he hasn't yet done so. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:38, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by William M. Connolley
I don't have an opinion on this request, but I draw any interested admin's attention to recent edits at Talk:ExxonMobil; here seems as good a place as any William M. Connolley (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning HughD
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Both of the edits listed above appear to be violations of HughD's topic ban. Terms of the ban are stated stated in DSLOG. "...that ban has been redefined and expanded to cover everything related to conservative US politics from 2009 to the present, broadly construed until August 28, 2016.."The widening of the ban was enacted by User:Ricky81682 on 11 December.
- Regarding the first diff: he is asking for someone to close an RfC about watchdog.org that he himself opened. It was technically OK for him to open the RfC on 8 December, but after 11 December he should be keeping hands off the RfC per the terms of his ban.
- Regarding the second diff: Citizens United (organization) is included in Category:New Right organizations (United States) so it is related to conservative US politics. The court case discussed was decided in 2010 so this is covered by conservative US politics from 2009 to the present. HughD's point about Bluebook citations might be OK if made elsewhere, so long as it were not made on the talk page of a court case he is banned from discussing.
- I recommend that HughD offer to cure his ban violation by striking out both of the comments named in this request. EdJohnston (talk) 17:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- This editor seems receptive to guidance as to whether the two subject edits violated the topic-ban. I believe they did, but in view of his comments, I believe that pointing this out and cautioning against a recurrence is a sufficient response. I don't think the editor should be required to strike out the two comments, though; I understand that that would be a gesture of compliance with the topic-ban, but the net result would be to call more, not less, attention to the comments that shouldn't have been made and that I trust won't be made again. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Calling HughD 'receptive to guidance' would be an optimistic conclusion given the debates he has engaged in at User talk:Ricky81682. Nonetheless HughD has made a statement above suggesting that he won't continue. So I'd be OK with closing this with a warning to HughD to make no more edits like the two diffs cited at top of this complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 04:20, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Kachelus
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Kachelus
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:31, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Kachelus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
This editor is a long-term WP:SPA who's involvement at Wikipedia since September 2009 is (almost all) editing longevity articles. Discretionary sanctions are warranted against accounts that have a "clear shared agenda" such as those who consistently edit articles, and vote in AfDs to favor the position of the Gerontology Research Group, as opposed to the goals of Wikipedia. This is that type of editor.
- August 20, 2014 and June 29, 2014: Example of the typical editing by Kachelus which is of typical hyper-technical listcruft for the WOP tables, revising location of an alleged supercentenarian with no source provided (one being a edit summary to a random obscure GRG subpage with zero evidence for its credibility).
- December 19, 2015 Restoration of the nonsense that claims are "unverified" when they are classified as "unverified" under the GRG as opposed to when they are unverified as meant under WP:V. This has been well settled since August 2015.
- December 20, 2015 Reverting at Australian page to again assert GRG's "verified" status as opposed to what Wikipedia cares about.
- December 30, 2015 In an AFD, demands that "First create a list on wikipedia with all verified dead supercentenarians in a sortable table, sortable to gender, to year of death, to place of death, and then all the other lists could be merged or deleted. But not the other way round, because in this way there is danger of losing information in case of being not installed of the big table. So I wait for the big table." showing a complete disassociation for what is useful and productive here.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Editor has been editing in this area for many years and while there is almost no talk page comments, this one at that time had the ARBCOM notice on the talk page.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Kachelus As was suggested with respect to 930310 above, if you have any concerns about Legacypac, please propose a section here that explicitly explains the issues. It did no good in the section above and it will do no good here either. As to Ollie231213, I don't need to rehash the fact that a number of outside admins with no involvement in this area that agreed and supported the topic ban. If the same happens here, so be it. As to your editing, first, the issue is that the GRG has those categories and yet Wikipedia discussion after discussion among people who work on the entire encyclopedia and not the supercentenarian hobbyists have found the GRG unverified claims as not reliable sources. There have been numerous RFCs and debates on this policy with clear-cut support against the vast minority viewpoint that the GRG needs to be separately distinguished in any way. If you don't agree with that, fine but those views are considered disruptive and counter-productive here. It is not your opinions per se but the fact that your opinions reflect a complete disregard for the fundamentals behind Wikipedia's sourcing policy here with such things as demands to create a directory of supercentenarians before even considering deleting anything here that are problematic. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:35, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Kachelus
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Kachelus
Ok firstly sorry I have to say you are wrong, Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). In English wikipedia my main itenerary is longevity, yes, in other Wikipedias it is amateur soccer, politics, history and geography, but these are things you didn't know. So long-term WP:SPA is only partly true, because this topic is only dealt in English wikipedia. Over the years I tried to get the several lists in this topic to a similar content and show the correct historic names of regions about 110 years ago if they were not already written in these lists. In Wikipedia is not only GRG a source, several other media also reported supercentenarians I showed. Unfortunately GRG did not prove them, but that is not my fault when wikipedia lists made differences between verified, pending and unverified cases — it was not me who introduced that. I just want to keep information on wikipedia before people wish to remove them for reasons we cannot really understand. Over the years no one concerned about that, just now, I don't know why. But now I understand your wish to ban everyone who is not on your opinion (e.g. Ollie231213) and I think that is not what Wikipedia stands for. Legacypac nominates for AfD, and you wish to ban editors who have the opposite opinion (keeping), sorry that is not the way I want to waste my free-time for arguing against, I am not paid for that. Do, what you wish to do and be lucky with that. I wish you a very Happy New Year!--Kachelus (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Kachelus
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Mystery Wolff II
Mystery Wolff
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Mystery Wolff
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- AlbinoFerret (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:48, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Mystery Wolff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#4.3.2 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 12/26/2015 Removal of long standing MEDRSsourced (review) material.
- 12/26/2015 Placed primary source on a medical claim.
- 12/30/2015 Reverts back in stray letter and leaves it in.
- 12/30/2015 Reverts to remove long standing MEDRS sourced material and reinsert primary source.
- 12/31/2015 Places edit warring template for single reverts in 24 hours.
- 1/1/2016 Reverts to remove long standing MEDRS sourced material again.
- 1/2/2016 Removal of long standing MEDRS sourced material again
- [99] Leaves another edit warring message on my talk page.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 11/29/2015
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 12/19/2015 by Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Removed 12/22/2015
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Mystery wolf is a disruptive SPA. Over their editing history, only 1 edit is not on the topic of e-cigarettes. The insertion of primary sources was discussed here.[100] Mystery Wolff did not have consensus to insert the material. Kingsindian even offered to help Mystery Wolff gain consensus. He also is removing long standing material from the page that is sourced to a MERDS source, a review. I have tried to discuss this.[101]. Rather than discuss Mystery Wolff reverted again today. The claim can be found in the source here [102] Page 5 in the middle column starting with "Recent studies have demonstrated that nicotine from electronic cigarettes also deposits on indoor surfaces" and going into the next column.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Mystery Wolff
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Mystery Wolff
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Mystery Wolff
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.