HouseOfArtaxiad
Six-month topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning HouseOfArtaxiad
Concerning the article of Shusha, HouseOfArtaxiad was warned against edit-warring already on 25 September, but neverthless proceeded further. His editing became a concern once more on 4 November and then again the next day. Now he contributed to a suspicious activity in the Shusha article once more, ignoring the ongoing discussion at the article's talkpage and twice reverting the addition that doesn't suit him. I think a block would be warranted now.
Discussion concerning HouseOfArtaxiadStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by HouseOfArtaxiadThe talk page consensus was that Shushi was founded in 1428 by Armenians. Wiritng it was founded in 1752 by Persians contridicts the entire article, Brand needs to accept that. HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC) If anyone needs to be put under sanctions, it is Grand and Brand for their ill faith edits and obvious attempts to remove the Armenian history from the Shushi article. Grand in particular needs to be blocked for his obsession with creating a personal conflict with me for every edit I make, which violates WP:BATTLEGROUND. --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC) User:EdJohnston Why does no one else get banned? And why should I get banned for that matter? You're outlook is "He didn't revert 3 times, but oh well. I've tried taking this to the talk and reporting it before anyone else. Fatbob didn't listen and the Admins didn't care. Why should I be punished for everyone else's mistakes? --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by GrandmasterThere's a parallel discussion about the conduct of this user at WP:AN: [2] Grandmaster 21:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Also, I think the fact that HouseOfArtaxiad claims a consensus at talk when there's clearly none shows that HouseOfArtaxiad does not understand what WP:Consensus means. Grandmaster 21:44, 8 November 2013 (UTC) And I find the rvs cited in this report to be quite disruptive, because HouseOfArtaxiad removed a reference to a source for no apparent reason, and tried to assert as a fact only one of the versions of the foundation of the town (and not the generally accepted one), suppressing the other, in contradiction to WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and a bunch of other rules. Such behavior demonstrates a failure on part of HouseOfArtaxiad to understand the core WP rules, and despite the previous warnings by admins and an ongoing discussion at WP:AN, he continues to make questionable reverts at an arbitration covered article. Grandmaster 21:57, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by HablabarIt came to my attention that Brandmeister who filed this report was actually sanctioned for edit warring in the same Shusha article where he would be banned from Arm-Az area for two years [3]. His ban was shortened to half a year, and ended in August 2013. I find his report not only disingenuous but also an alternative way to attack his opponent(s) once the article was locked and out of reach for Brand, instead of engaging in consensus-building. Therefore, I recommend to view this reporting as filed with Unclean hands in light of Brand's own most recent and historical misconduct on the Shusha page. Hablabar (talk) 04:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnstonHouseOfArtaxiad has now edit warred at two articles: List of massacres in Turkey and Nazim Bey. Look at the massacres article first because it's easier to check, even though HOA only reverted twice there:
One of the massacres that he removes is called 'Massacres in the Çoruh River valley', which has an academic source in a book by Robert Gewarth et al. published by Oxford University Press, “War in peace: Paramilitary violence in Europe after the Great War”. This was a massacre where Armenians are said to have participated. Another is Yıldız assassination attempt, which describes an attack carried out by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. It's reasonable to have low tolerance for edit warring on obvious ethnic hot-button articles like this one. The other article where HOA engaged in warring is Nazim Bey.
I didn't look into the claims of edit warring at Shusha, a dispute which has now led to full protection of the article by User:Ymblanter. My recommendation for a sanction is given in the admin section below. EdJohnston (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC) Result concerning HouseOfArtaxiadThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The complaint doesn't make clear how these two reverts violate any conduct rule. Two reverts don't constitute edit-warring yet. As submitted, I'd close this as not actionable. In situations like this, tendentious editing is frequently a problem, but it would need a much more thorough evidence submission to establish that. On the other hand, HouseOfArtaxiad, this forum does not resolve content disputes, and therefore making any argument here based on what you think an article should contain is quite beside the point. Sandstein 20:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC) On a purely procedural note, no warning to HouseOfArtaxiad has been logged at WP:ARBAA2.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Based on the summary of his edit warring that I gave above, I recommend a six-month topic ban of User:HouseOfArtaxiad from AA2. I don't perceive that HOA recognizes the slightest problem with his edits. We do tolerate people coming to Wikipedia with a personal POV but we don't like to see it manifested in articles. EdJohnston (talk) 20:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
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Pluto2012
It is fairly clear that there is no proven reason, nor consensus, to take any action here. Black Kite (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Pluto2012
Pluto2012 is cleverly deleting text on the verge of wp:disrupt. Each of his deletion might be considered as a "Petit Crime" only, but the accumulative effect is described as: "Their edits occur over a long period of time; in this case, no single edit may be clearly disruptive, but the overall pattern is disruptive.". His Article contribution seems to have more red color that the black one. i.e more deletion than adding text. During the last months he deleted a lot (perhaps most) of my writing. He follows me and delete my text in articles and subject he has never visited before. The result is that I am busy looking for solution rather than adding content. I know the risk of wp:boomerang (I have received it unexpectedly at the help desk and at wp:drn) , but I hardly have something to lose, since I nearly can't contribute here anyway. notes:
Discussion concerning Pluto2012Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Pluto2012Disputes with numerous contributorsWe are many editors who are tired by Ykantor. You can read here some testimonies about his behaviour. He is not here to contribute to the project of writing a free encyclopaedia complying with WP:V and WP:NPoV. He is here to "correct" the anti-Israeli pov-pushing in the encyclopaedia. His attack here above against user:Zero0000 is another illustration of his behaviour (to be compared with what he wrote to him to get his mind : 1, 2 or 3. I don't feel like losing any more time with him. Pluto2012 (talk) 21:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
FrustrationI didn't defend myself but I want to say something about this : "[When Pluto edits] articles he never previously touched, and deletes my well supported sentence. He really works hard.[2nd degree]"...
Going on with the problematic attitude despite a WP:DRN and this WP:A/EYkantor is now engaged in provocation. There are already quotes in this article. It is obvious that adding all these, the way he did, with bullet points, is not acceptable and is a provocation given he was already told these quotes were contentious. I also point out that I am the main contributor of this very difficult article and that I transformed it from a "list of massacres" where "editors" fought to add one or remove another to an article gathering most of the scientifical material concerning the massacres and their impact in the '48 war... And since, it has been quiet. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Quotes in citationsThe edit here above dating from yesterday is even more problematic given that :
Ykantor refuses to collaborate and performs WP:FORUMSHOPPING until he gets the answers he needs in order to justify his behaviour. Pluto2012 (talk) 09:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000Ykantor the complainant predicts that I will write "Pluto is excellent While I am horrible". Well, I don't know about horrible; there are worse editors around than Ykantor. Stubborn, opinionated, persistent, energetic and single-minded, but not horrible. Pluto deserves a medal for trying to moderate Ykantor's enthusiasm for rewriting large parts of Wikipedia to conform to a particular national narrative. I honestly don't know how Pluto finds the patience. Zerotalk 06:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I still won't give you "horrible", but I did forget "obsessive". Sometimes, like in your "any form of partition" obsession, I can hardly believe you are serious. You wasted so much of everyone's time on that tiny point, going on and on and on about it. Zerotalk 12:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
Statement by ykantorto Sandstein: I will appreciate it if you re consider the decision to close it without action. Concerning the routine deletion of quotes, I was told in the help desk: "...because the article is under discretionary sanctions. You may mention that status on the article talk page if the other editor continues deleting your quotes". In my opinion, the deletion of quotes (or / and the supported text), is against wp:preserve and is violating the "the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". Ykantor (talk) 13:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC) Ykantor (talk) 07:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by KeithbobFYI.... there are two ongoing discussions at WP:DRN that involve User:Ykantor and User:Pluto2012 (and others). These threads contain allegations of misconduct by various parties despite reminders that DRN is a content only forum. If anyone feels the DRN discussions might be relevant to this proceeding they may view them here. [5] [6] -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Pluto2012This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. This complaint is just a long list of edits with which the complainant disagrees. That is what we call a content dispute, and it is outside the scope of arbitration enforcement. Discretionary sanctions are authorized for editors violating "the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process"; nothing like that is alleged in the complaint. I'd close this without action and advise the complainant to follow normal dispute resolution procedures. Sandstein 20:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC) I see no basis for sanctions against Pluto (I didn't go back any further than the October diffs). If anything, I see disruptive editing by Ykantor, e.g., this biased and extroardinary edit already cited above by Pluto.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC) |
TopGun
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning TopGun
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Darkness Shines (talk) 12:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TopGun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIP
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 6 November 2013 This edit violates principle 3 "3) The use of Wikipedia for political propaganda is prohibited." We have academic sources which say the mission failed, TG has edit warred primary sources into the article to say it was a success.
- 12 November 2013 He restored this 5 times, three of those after he was informed in was a violation of BLPPRIMARY, and in my removal of the content involved I [7] explained in was a BLPPRIMARY issue. this violates principle 5 "Users who engage in disruptive editing may be banned from the site."
- 6 November 2013 Accusations of hounding, this violates principle 1 "Wikipedia:Assume good faith contemplates the extension of courtesy and good will to other editors on the assumption that they, like you, are here to build an information resource with a neutral point of view based on reliable, verifiable sources." I got to that article as I was at that time heavily editing the 1971 Bangladesh genocide article, and this came up in one of the sources I used. So I did this edit. Then read the article and found the BLPPRIMARY violation.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on TG was a part of the arbitration request which brought about the DS, [8] He is well aware that there are discretionary sanctions enforced in the topic area.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Removing BLP violations are an exemption under 3RR, and as TG was part of the arbitration which resulted in DS he is not in need of a formal warning. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: I disagree, as we are not meant to use primary sources for statements of fact from living people, I explained this in both edit summaries and on the article talk page. As is obvious from the diffs I presented, and even if you feel it is not a BLP issue, I acted in good faith as I believe it is a violation of BLPPRIMARY. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Further to the need for a warning, I do not care what WP:AC/DS#Warnings says, you tried the same line with the AE request on Neo. You were wrong then and you are wrong now, how can you think a person who was a part of the arbitration to not know of the DS? That is just bureaucracy for the sake of it. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Further to the BLP issues, I was also reverting out the use of a blog which was being used to support a statement from a BLP, this is a violation of SPS and BLP, and again do I really need to point out that reverting under those circumstances is an exemption? I explained on the talk page of the article that I believed the sources as they were being used violated BLP and BLPPRIMARY, I edited in good faith, from now on I will just leave suspect BLP vios in an article. I will obviously be fileing an appeal as soon as any tban hits me, sanctionign an editor for acting in good faith is bollocks. I will not be online again for a good few hours. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
@Seraphimblade: Given this is the first dispute between myself and TG in over a year, using such old actions to impose sanctions is hardly on. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- As this will be more than likely my final comment, I hope it is read. With this edit TopGun has made the claim that Operation Chengiz Khan was a success. The sources used, two of which I have found on archives are these two [9][10] Neither of which say the op was a success, and given the Indian airforce was dropping bombs on Pakistani targets, according to the source used by TG "By 9:00 pm the IAF Canberras too were being bombed up for their night forays deep into Pakistan, their objectives hundreds of miles apart, from Kashmir to the Karachi coast, their first targets being the PAF bases which had launched the war on the western front." Now giving the first attacks (from the same source used by TG) were "between 1709 and 1723 hours", does that sound like in can be interpreted as a success? The only source I have been unable to check are the memoirs by Lal, I have asked TG three times for a full quote on the article talk page, still waiting on that. But as the first two sources used do not state the mission succeeded, then that is, IMO, source falsification. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning TopGun
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by TopGun
- I don't think Darkness Shines has been able to convince any of the three editors discussing on talkpage about this which makes this a content dispute. There has been no violation of any content policy. I also explained my edits to which DS, instead of replying, started an editwar with multiple editors. This slow editwar has been an attempt to wikilawyer around 3RR and I count 7 reverts on the article by DS and I was not the only one who reverted him. Also the sources I used included a book by one of the commanders participating in the mission which is published material making it RS, it has reports of multiple sources confirming the statements and more than one citations back it up.
- DS has also not even attempted to resolve this issue by any single method prior to this other than editwaring content out. Which makes it pretty clear that Arbitration on this is a waste of time taking a single edit to discuss for days without any attempts to discuss when clearly DS failed to get any consensus on talk page.
- The hounding accusations stand as DS was put on an interaction ban with me which was later removed after a lot of wikilawyering going on over the ban. I totally stayed away from DS for a few months until he has followed me to yet another article he has never edited before, specifically removing content that I added or edited before. I have no other conclusion to make when there are numerous other articles to edit.
- I also don't have much time to spend on DS and his disputes. He can go and discuss it on talk page but I will not participate in any wikidrama that follows. I'll keep my response minimal here and hopefully arbitrators don't have the time to jump into a content dispute to support an editwaring editor which didn't go to any resolution method and barely even a talkpage discussion other than repeating a claim of primary source. I suppose this should WP:BOOMERANG,
--lTopGunl (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- Additional comments by TopGun
I will like to reiterate that I am not the only editor who is reverting DS here (which tells of the consensus). And I don't see why I should be sanctioned when an editor follows me to a new article and then starts reverting in a new version without completing any kind of dispute resolution and then goes on with AE... talking of quick escalation. I have nearly a year, and counting, of edit history to prove that I have stayed away from DS mostly. Also view the admin comment on talk page where DS attempted to get the edit protected version reverted. --lTopGunl (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2013 (UTC) Moved to user's comment section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Here you go... DS has reverted once again as soon the protection expired [11] and after all this debate here inspite of opposition on talk page and by reverts previously on the pretext of SPS where he was already explained not to. There was no BLP issue here too. Several admins [12] and people at BLP noticeboard have already told him that [13]. How come you can put this all on me symmetrically when one editor is following me and then hell bent on removing material from the article. --lTopGunl (talk) 00:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
@Regentspark, this was the exact edit that was denied during protection. Makes it a simple revert by definition, by letter and spirit of editwar. I did explain why that source wasn't to be removed. --lTopGunl (talk) 03:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- FYI for admins [14]. Warnings only go so far. I had to stay away from DS by not editing into the area mostly... and DS is having edit war issues at other places too. If I get a ban because an editor follows my edits, I would consider it unfair. --lTopGunl (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Faizan
I agree with TopGun. The user Darkness Shines is moving just without consensus. He has not given time to the article's talk page. The dispute ought to be solved by mutual harmonious discussion. Darkness Shines is edit-warring, this needs to be stopped. I don't see any violation of the Wikipedia's rules by TopGun. The other user ought to discuss the sources which he regards as "BLP Primary". Faizan 15:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sitush
@Sandstein. I've not looked at the latest spat being reported here but it does seem overly bureaucratic to suggest that, because of a technicality, one is warned and one has a temporary ban when it is indeed the case that TopGun is familiar with the sanctions that are in force and is not an occasional contributor to the topic area that is subject to the sanctions. Indeed, TopGun has been regularly involved in the fracas and is not unfamiliar with ANI, eg: see this. I wouldn't expect someone to formally warn me of the sanctions in this area, given my past involvement, and I don't really see why TopGun should be any different: they know what they are doing, just as I do. - Sitush (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- If Sandstein's "construe narrowly" interpretation is to prevail then would it be considered point-y if someone were to now formally warn TopGun of the sanctions? That could be done most simply by saying so at the time that this request is closed. I'm still picking myself up off the floor at the revelation that they've never been warned (or, at least, any such warning has not been logged). They're very frequently involved in disputes where the type of behaviour raised here comes into question, although I acknowledge that somehow they have not been blocked for quite a while. Their problem seems to be that whilst DS tends to get heated across a wide range of India/Pakistan related subjects (accused of bias by all sides, etc), TopGun's heatedness seems to be from a fairly consistent nationalist POV. And it is nationalist POV issues that gave rise to the creation of the sanctions in the first place. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
@Salvio Giuliano:, I remember that ongoing reporting saga - tedious or what? Given that there has been a gap and given that they are both capable of doings good things, I'd be inclined to treat this report as a final warning. If the pair of them engage in mutual edit warring etc in future then they're both topic banned, broadly construed: no excuses of "well, X started it". Let's see if they can police themselves, as they appear to have done for a while now. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by RegentsPark
Looking (cursorily) at the request, I think that DS's report was unnecessary and the dispute doesn't really rise to the level necessitating sanctions and, perhaps, all that is required is that DS and TG be told that they need to seek mediation or some sort of dispute resolution. Particularly since the underlying issue seems unclear (for example, the info box and the article are inconsistent). An uneven sanction is likely to be unproductive since the underlying dispute is likely to go unresolved, an outcome that is not in Wikipedia's interests.--regentspark (comment) 18:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade. I think that's a tad draconian. Both editors, TopGun as well as DS, are valuable content contributors despite their negative interactions in the past. Neither have had any serious issues with each other for over an year. Topic banning them from the very areas where they are making valuable contributions is not a good outcome for the project. Once again, I suggest just telling them to head for some sort of DR or mediation rather than imposing sanctions, that's the better solution for Wikipedia. Just because we can impose bans, it doesn't follow that we have to do so. --regentspark (comment) 23:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- @TopGun. Um, you're overstating things. DS has made changes to the article but has left your contentious edit intact. I'm actually quite impressed by his restraint this time. --regentspark (comment) 02:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
@ Seraphimblade. No sanctions are necessary here. This is a content dispute and should not be handled through sanctions. I suggest, politely, that you merely close this as 'no action required' and we all move on to doing what we're supposed to do - adding content. --regentspark (comment) 18:30, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Keysanger
User Darkness Shining has a perverse understanding of the Wikipedia rules. Here he recommends to a topic banned user to send intruccions per mail, because posting on his talk page would be break the ban: mailing it to me will not. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by TParis
@Seraphimblade: Yes, they have been at it for years. The first time I encountered both was here. @Sandstein: Considering that an Arbitrator and two other uninvolved administrators disagree with you on whether or not TopGun is sufficiently warned, I think you should respect that your opinion is in the minority here and either not act on it or act with respect to their opinion --v/r - TP 01:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning TopGun
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
This topic area is subject to discretionary sanctions per WP:ARBIP#Standard discretionary sanctions. The main issue here seems to be an edit-war between Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) and TopGun (talk · contribs) about the article Operation Chengiz Khan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), concerning a 1971 military engagement between India and Pakistan. Both users have reverted each other multiple times until the article was protected from editing. It is pointless to determine who edit-warred more or who had consensus (if any) on their side; both have contributed to the disruption brought about by the edit war. In principle, this would lead to sanctions for both users. However, only Darkness Shines is listed at Wikipedia:ARBIP#List of editors placed on notice, while we have no diff of a warning to TopGun that meets the formal requirements of WP:AC/DS#Warnings, which forbids us to sanction them at this time. I would therefore ban Darkness Shines from the topic of the India-Pakistan conflict for a month, and warn TopGun. Sandstein 08:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- In response to Darkness Shines, it is not clear to me how exactly your reverts at [15] and similar were reverts of WP:BLP violations such that WP:3RRNO would exempt them from edit-warring. Also contrary to your assumption, the regulations at WP:AC/DS#Warnings make no exception for editors who were otherwise involved in a case previously. Sandstein 16:02, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am explicitly not commenting on the merits, as I have not examined the issue yet, but I just wanted to point out that, as a result of TopGun's participation in the thread where ArbCom authorised discretionary sanctions for this topic area, he can be considered constructively warned. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Salvio here. TopGun is clearly aware of the restrictions applicable to this area, and was at the time of the edit war. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I entirely agree that this makes more sense from a practical point of view, but considering the broad reach and sometimes contentiousness of discretionary sanctions, I personally prefer to construe the authorization providing for them narrowly, sticking to the (currently valid) rules as closely as possible until such time as the Arbitration Committee updates them (which we have been waiting for a long time now). And my reading of the current rules is that they mandate an explicit talk page warning under all circumstances because they provide for no other method of warning. I'll therefore not sanction TopGun, but another administrator may of course take another view and do so nonetheless. Sandstein 17:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am explicitly not commenting on the merits, as I have not examined the issue yet, but I just wanted to point out that, as a result of TopGun's participation in the thread where ArbCom authorised discretionary sanctions for this topic area, he can be considered constructively warned. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- These two have been at each other's throats for months, if not years, and TopGun can clearly be considered to be aware of the discretionary sanctions. Warnings are there to make sure that editors know they are expected to be on their best behaviour, not as an arbitrary box-ticking exercise, and certainly not to allow editors who are clearly aware of the sanctions to game the system. I propose a lengthy (or even indefinite) block or topic ban for both parties. This is one of those cases where beating around the bush will not bring about a desirable outcome—they have both had plenty of opportunities to modify their behaviour to conform with the standards of decorum expected of encyclopaedia editors (including multiple short-term blocks), and they have both persisted with their battleground mentality, at the very least contributing to the level of toxicity that exists in the topic area. If the consensus of uninvolved admins is that the lack of a formal "warning" precludes TG being sanctioned under the provisions of arbitration enforcement, then I would suggest that standard admin action should be considered. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, do you have some examples of Darkness Shines and TopGun doing this before? If that's happened, that should indeed factor into the severity of the sanctions. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Apologies for the tardiness of my response. For the record (I see somebody has brought some relevant discussions to your attention on your talk page). These two have an entire ANI subpage dedicated to them, where there was an unsuccessful proposal to block both of them for at least six months as well as other suggestions for sanctions or restrictions against them. I searched for my previous interaction with them, which threw up a plethora of noticeboard threads, and searching for both of their names in the project space threw up 87 results. Both also have lengthy block logs, mostly arising from this topic area and related areas. I think this clearly shows that this is an ongoing problem with these two editors that has been going on for at least a couple of years. That's why I proposed relatively draconian sanctions to start with, and I maintain that we should do something that will have an impact—to do nothing or to impose short-term blocks (for example) would simply be kicking the can down the road, and these editors will continue to be a problem. However, I'm not devoid of sympathy for RegentsPark's view that they are productive when they're not provoking each other, so I could live with a more creative solution if somebody wants to suggest one. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:23, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, do you have some examples of Darkness Shines and TopGun doing this before? If that's happened, that should indeed factor into the severity of the sanctions. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Given the past behavior here, I'm inclined to consider HJ Mitchell's idea of removing both parties from the area with an indefinite topic ban. The behavior of both has been completely unacceptable, and I don't think that's going to change. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:13, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Based upon everything HJ Mitchell provided (thanks), and all the history here, I see two possible solutions: An indefinite, formalized interaction ban between Top Gun and Darkness Shines, with the understanding that they are both to avoid articles where they've previously conflicted, or an indefinite topic ban. Given the history of misconduct here, I'm leaning toward the topic ban, but I would be interested in input from the others reviewing this request. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:39, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- The interaction ban would be a bad idea, IMHO... DS and TG have already been IBANned in the past and that restriction did not improve anything; I don't exactly remember why or how it happened, but both ended up reporting each other on my talk page whenever one would think that the other had violated the restriction – if you look through my talk page archives, you'll see various threads about either DS, TG or both. In short, the IBAN did not decrease the amount of energy needed to deal with their disputes. And, in the end, it was lifted (can't remember when or why, however). Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Gilabrand
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Gilabrand
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 31 Oct Three counts of removal of the word Palestine without any reason - "Palestinian historian Walid Khalidi" changed to "Arab historian Walid Khalidi". "It is during the rule of the Ottoman Empire over Palestine that the form Kafr ʿInān (Kafr 'Anan) first appears." becomes "The village began to be called Kafr ʿInān (Kafr 'Anan) during the rule of the Ottoman Empire." and "During the period of Roman and Byzantine rule in Palestine, it was a Jewish village..." becomes "During the Roman and Byzantine era, the Jewish village of..." I'd really like to hear why she made those three edits.
- 29 Oct Cuts out all criticism of the pro-Israeli MEMRI from its lead despite large portions of the MEMRI article focusing on criticism.
- 14 Nov Makes the Prime Minister of the State of Palestine into the Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority - a position that ceased to exist in January.
- 14 Nov Removes information of the depopulation of Arab villages.
- 11 Nov Article is about an Israeli settlement - edit removes statement of illegality of such settlements from the lead.
- 4 Nov An article about a man described by David Rieff as a "pro-Israel polemicist" becomes significantly more positive about the man.
- 6 Nov "The moshav was founded in 1949 by the HaBonim movement on land which belonged to the depopulated Arab village of Kafr Lam." becomes "The moshav was founded in 1949 by the HaBonim movement."
- 29 Oct Read the changes to the lead, effectively, Israeli occupied becomes disputed, international rejection of Israel's annexation is completely cut out, written as fact that the area is "a rear base for Palestinian attacks on [[Israel]"
- 7 Nov "Below is a list of Israeli museums. Some of them are located in the Israeli-occupied territories." Becomes "Below is a list of Israeli museums." Museums in the Occupied Palestinian territories such as Siebenberg House are on the list.
- 24 Sept (to show this behaviour is standard for Gilabrand, not new) Mohammad Bakri goes from being Palestinian to being an Israeli Arab, cuts out lots of info on the Jenin massacre, removes the fact that Jenin, Jenin's Executive Producer was murdered by Israelis shortly after making the film.
- 5 Nov Cuts out that the previous Palestinian residents had all fled their town due to an Israeli military attack.
- 31 Oct"During the 1948 Arab–Israeli war, Saliha was the site of a massacre carried out by Israeli forces shortly before the village was completely depopulated. The built structures in the village, with the exception of an elementary school for boys, were also destroyed." becomes "During the 1948 Arab–Israeli war, Saliha was depopulated and many buildings were destroyed, although the elementary school for boys remained standing." Read the well sourced Saliha article to read about the massacre that Gilabrand doesn't want people knowing about.
- 22 Oct Neve Yaakov is an Israeli settlement, there is no question about this. The guardian article used to source the fact it's a settlement states "Though these areas are defined as settlements by the international community, Israel views them as neighbourhoods of Jerusalem"[16]. It it clear that Gilabrand is here to further the Israeli view and cut short the international community's view.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
He's been blocked twelve times before, I think he knows about the sanctions.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I had removed some obvious foruming by an IP, who has been warned for soapboxing at Talk:Eurabia and Talk:Anti-Zionism, when Gilabrand decided to restore the rant - [[17]]. I tried talking with Gilabrand on her talk page but she wouldn't listen. I then looked at her edits and saw that her primary goal on wikipedia, as seen by the above diffs, is to further the same POV the IP was soapboxing in favour of. It is not these particular edits for which I think Gilabrand needs to be removed from the topic area, but what these edits show; her steady pattern of pushing bias into wikipedia.
- Nice rant Izak, I especially enjoyed the person attacks, presenting Gilabrand as a victim, the mindboggling assertion that bringing this case here is a "violation of WP:NOTCENSORED", the statement that we need more "loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view", I'd love to "debate her point by point" as you suggest but I don't get paid to edit here; we block editors who vandalize wikipedia because it costs too much time to follow them, reverting their edits everyday. The same goes for editors who are here to push their bias into articles, it costs too much to keep an eye on them and revert them all the time.
- Gilabrand's statement shows she does not understand why pushing her bias into articles as shown here by myself and others is wrong. It is safe to say that if she is allowed to continue editing IP articles that she will continue to bias wikipedia.
- The manner in which Gilabrand "explains" the reasons for her edits shows that she is well aware that she is actively installing bias in wikipedia.
- For example, when explaining why she changed Walid Khalidi from Palestinian to Arab she states that he is infact Arab, well okay, he is Arab, but why did you change it? Is he not Palestinian? The same goes for Mohammad Bakri. She must be hoping we gloss over the lack of explaination for why she rewrote two sentences for the sole purpose of removing the word Palestine from them in the same provided diff.
- She deletes information from leads as "unsourced" even though in both cases (my diffs 2&6) the parts deleted are clearly a summary of extensive and well sourced text found in the body.
- So you removed the statement that Habonim is built on the ruins of Kafr Lam because it was unsourced. Odd isn't it that you didn't remove the statement from Kafr Lam that Habonim is built on it? Why didn't you? Is it perhaps because it is not only obvious but also because it is well sourced there? Why didn't you think of using the same sources that are present at Kafr Lam?
- She "can see no problem whatsoever" with how she cut out in entirety the massacre that occured to the village upon whose ruins were build Avivim. I find it truely disgusting how she can use the term depopulated to refer to what is by no means an exaggeration to call a massacre.
- I guess she just wants to avoid diffs 3&9; just couldn't spin those. Sepsis II (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Gilabrand
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Gilabrand
The only explanation I can come up with after looking at this new set of allegations is an acute case of tone deafness. Since when is it okay to fill Wikipedia with tendentious, repetitious, aggressive and unsourced statements while efforts to tone down sensationalism, reduce redundancies, remove tangential original research and introduce new information based on solid sources are not okay? Have you lost all sensitivity to language and forgotten what neutral writing sounds like? A cherry-picked handful of edits has now been presented here, gleaned from my 49,492 edits on Wikipedia, that supposedly shows “bias.” If people actually read the material in question, instead of relying on the “testimony” of Sepsis (who in the one year he has been around, has acquired a nice little history of blocks and warnings for edit warring, tendentious editing and personal attacks) , they would see that there is not a single violation of Wikipedia policy. On the contrary, the articles in question have all been improved, and I see no evidence of my work having been challenged by anyone until Sepsis crept out of the woodwork. I will now respond to these allegations, point by point: 1) Walid Khalidi is indeed an “Arab” historian. According to his official biography, is the scion of a prominent “Arab family.” 2) Beit Guvrin is an Israeli moshav established in 1949. Information about the prior history is amply provided on the Beit Jibrin page. 3) Mohammad Bakri is indeed an Israeli Arab filmmaker (this is referenced). The article about him is biographical. The place for detailed information about his movie Jenin Jenin and any statements about the fate of the movie’s executive producer is that page. 4) The statements removed from Habonim are unsourced. 5) The statements removed from Zisr az-Zarka are not about Zisr az-Zarka. 6) To the article on Goldhagen (mistakenly identified by Sepsis) I added sourced data from the New York Times and removed unsourced commentary from the lead. 7) MEMRI – The paragraph I deleted from the lead was not sourced. I did not know that Ravpapa was the author and I’m sorry to have pissed him off. Next time he should leave his initials. 8) I can see no problem whatsoever with my copyedits to Avivim. I added a photo and a fact tag for a statement that does not appear in the cited source. Everything you ever wanted to know about massacres appears on the Saliha page. 9) Shani-Livne - I created a history section and all the information was moved there. It was later replaced in the lead and I did not contest that. 10) Shebaa farms – I added new information with references and deleted statements without a source. The article was subsequently edited by Zero and there was no further action on my part.
As you can see, the edits cited by Sepsis consist of linguistic copyedits, removing off-topic material that is covered on a different page, and the addition of text, references and images. If you would like to hear explanations for any other of the other 49,492 edits, I will be happy to provide them. --Geewhiz (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
After she was unblocked, (in spite of her rather obvious false claims of not breaking her ban ) Gilabrand has continued to be among the worst offenders in the whole I/P area. Typically, she removes/downplays Palestinian history, like here, where she moves pre-Ottoman history to "Etymology". And here: where she simply removes the whole Arab history from the caption. Occasionally she simply fabricates history, like at Hittin, she inserts in the lead that: In the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the village was conquered by Israeli troops without a fight. See Talk:Hittin#1948-war
Or here, where Two residents who had remained behind were executed by Israeli soldiers. In December 1948 the army evicted about 40 "old men and women" … becomes: Two villagers were killed in the operation. In December 1948, 40 "old men and women" were transferred….
And occasionally, she removed perfectly good sources, if she doesn´t like them, like Benny Morris here, where The kibbutz was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.<ref name=Morris#6>Morris, 2004, p. xx, settlement #6.</ref><ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92</ref> becomes: According to Arab historian Walid Khalidi, it was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.<ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92</ref>
And then she googles up garbage sources, like here, see Talk:Al-Bireh#not_WP:RS.3F. And this, see Talk:Al_Qastal,_Palestine. Gilabrand can do good copy-edits, but for the Palestinian articles she is a disaster. Huldra (talk) 22:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- To Ravpapa: I think you missed the point: Gilabrand changed the article from: The kibbutz was established on the land of ... to: According to Arab historian Walid Khalidi, it was established on the land of... The first was as an established fact (sourced to two independent first-rate WP:RS sources). After she has finished with the article, the Morris-ref. has disappeared, and the whole fact (which Gilabrand does not like, namely that the Israeli kibbutz was founded on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village) becomes, instead of an undisputed fact, just something attributed to an "Arab historian". I fail to see how this can be a "good faith" edit. If she had wanted to name both sources, she could have written: According to Israeli historian Benny Morris and Arab historian Walid Khalidi... ...and kept the Morris-ref. She didn´t. Huldra (talk) 10:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- And Gilabrand did not move the fact that Habonim is built on lands of the former Palestinian village of Kafr Lam from the lead of the article, to further down: she removed it completely. Instead she inserted that the "medieval" Cafarlet fortress is at the same location: thereby neatly erasing a millennium of Arab history at the place. (This is especially misleading, as the picture of the fortress shows the rounded corner towers: to quote Meron Benvenisti, who has a picture of it in his book "Sacred Landscape" (fig 18 ), with the caption: "Although the round corner towers are from the Ummayad period (tenth century), the Israelis identify them as Crusader, since this period does not contradict the Zionist narrative".) Huldra (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nyttend
Just a passing comment from an uninvolved admin: either you've made a big error with your 11 Nov diff, or I've overlooked the problem despite reading the diff several times. As far as I can see, the edit started with an article that was entirely in one section and added a header to some of it, without touching the bit talking about the settlement's legality. You need to explain why this specific edit was problematic in this way, unless of course you didn't mean to include it for that reason. Nyttend (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- That sentence which Gilabrand placed under the history heading appears in the lead of all Israeli settlement articles, in the end Frederico1234 did put it back into the lead. The conformity of all settlement articles to have that same sentence makes me believe there is a consensus to its inclusion. If someone knows more about this and could inform us about it that would be great. Not all edits are as bad as others but when the smaller ones such as this are seen along side more severe edits such as the pair on Oct 31st it helps to show a steady pattern of pushing bias into articles. Sepsis II (talk) 03:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oh I have found it now, the consensus for placing that sentence in the lead, if not also the body, of all Israeli settlement articles; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements#Settlement illegality text. Sepsis II (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Gilbrand is a skilled writer; if she only edited away from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict she would be a valuable contributor. Alas, whenever the topic is of I-P relevance her bias takes over and her edits can't be trusted. I use these words advisedly; as well as a persistent pov in her choice of words she regularly engages in serious distortion. The complainant lists several examples. As an illustration that this is a long term problem, I'll mention an older edit [18] [19] in which she changed
- "an IDF patrol seized two Arab villagers, Abdullah Ahmad Dagash and Ibrahim Khalil, in a field 300 metres inside Jordan",
which exactly matches the source, to
- "an IDF patrol seized two Arab infiltrators in a field near the armistice line"
(my emphases; the incident is notable because the villagers were murdered). Another similar example occurred at Jish where a well-documented massacre was reduced to "killed in the fighting". Unfortunately nothing has improved since the incidents mentioned. These examples and multiple other examples impressed on me that all of Gilabrand's edits need to be checked for bad faith. This is a chore that should not be necessary. Zerotalk 04:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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@ Georgewilliamherbert: I wish I wasn't "involved" in this case so that I could reply to you in the administrators' section as an administrator of many years standing. I am actually quite shocked by your statement, which is nothing less than a claim that policy allows edit-warring provided, finally, the article becomes balanced. It most certainly does not!! According to your logic, when an article is unbalanced because a pov-pusher has visited, that is the fault of other editors for not pushing the opposite pov. Preposterous! There is only one excuse for an editor to present a single pov in an article, and that is that the article under-represents that pov. Nor does policy allow distortion of sources under any conditions whatever, such as my two examples and some others on this page demonstrate. Zerotalk 08:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
About Policy (not a comment on this particular case). The solution to the policy debate is fairly simple. We all agree on what the ideal state of an article is. Inter alia it should be well sourced, report the sources accurately, and it must fairly represent the different POVs. An editor whose edits push articles towards their ideal states is in conformity with policy (even if all they ever do is look for one particular bias and correct it). An editor who strives to push articles away from their ideal state is in violation of policy (which will in practice include many editors who are here primarily for a political purpose). Every edit should leave the article better than it was before. Zerotalk 00:39, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_7#Motion_regarding_Gilabrand.27s_AE_Block_for_WP:ARBPIA is relevant here, specifically "Gilabrand is further reminded that any future problematic editing following the removal of editing restrictions will be viewed dimly" and that she said "If I am unblocked, I will do my best not to disappoint them.--Geewhiz (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2011" here. A review of the provisional suspension of the AE block is probably merited, but the majority Gila's edits, edits that stay away from contentious issues, improve the encyclopedia. The blunt tools available here to deal with problematic editing are not ideal. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
<- The IP 174.44.174.192 appears to be intent on bringing conflict to Wikipedia and attacking contributors. Admin User:GraemeL warned them on 24 October 2013 "If you continue to post to talk pages in a manner that is considered uncivil by community standards I will block you without further warning". They need to be shut down. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- @IP174: I can't help you see. It's too late for that. From my perspective you are just like this guy. Neither of you should be allowed to edit. Editors should not be exposed to these kind of editors and the contents of their minds. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, having edited in the ARBPIA topic area for many years, a topic I have near-zero personal interest in, wouldn't edit if editors were neutral and the topic area wasn't under constant attack from nationalists/advocates, my view exactly matches Quadell's statement that editors "must not edit in a way that, in the aggregate, consistently favors one side of a controversial issue" and "that doing so is worthy of sanction that can include a topic ban" and "it has to be applied fairly to all who edit articles on controversial topics". I also think, unlike Georgewilliamherbert, that individual POV is a crime here and should be treated as such in this topic area if it leaves a footprint on the content. I edit in the topic area precisely because this approach is not in place and there are many things I would rather be doing here. There's a widely held belief that it is okay to be biased and it's okay to consistently favor one side of a controversial issue in a way that is detached from the way a representative sample of reliable sources handle an issue. It's not just editors in the topic area who think it's okay to POV push (let's call a spade a spade), governments and all sorts of organizations connected to the conflict think it's okay to exploit Wikipedia for what is in effect propaganda purposes. Agada says "A pattern of adding pro-Israel (or pro-Palestine) material is a bad reason for a topic ban". On the contrary, I think that is an excellent reason for a topic ban, one of the best reasons. It sends a clear message that it is not okay to use Wikipedia to support a cause. WP:NOTADVOCATE is policy. It should be possible to bring an editor here to AE and topic ban them for violating that policy based on evidence of a long term bias, which would require a substantial amount of evidence. That's not to say that I think Gila should be topic banned. The difficult bit is, of course, actually measuring bias from edits and deciding when a fuzzy line has been crossed. Nevertheless, in my view, it's the widely held belief that it is okay to advocate and emphasize particular narratives rather than simply writing an encyclopedia based on representative sampling of sources that causes most of the intractable problems in the topic area. People genuinely seem to believe that it's okay to be pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian here and edit accordingly. Many people, long term editors and new editors, in the topic area genuinely seem to believe that employing sampling bias in terms of sources or language itself is a legitimate method here. Editors routinely sample information to makes things they have presumably been taught to like look good, and things they have been taught to dislike look bad. It takes years to make people to think a certain way and there's nothing Wikipedia can or should do about that. But I think there needs to be a clear message that biased editing is not okay and that people must stop editing that way or else they will be topic banned. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ravpapa
As one who personally finds Gilabrand's political opinions repugnant, I feel pretty bizarre coming to her defense. Nonetheless, I think this complaint raises an issue of principle that needs to be stated. The knee-jerk, pro-Israeli narrative has pretty much been discredited here at Wikipedia, and, in my opinion, rightly so. But it is still a point of view that has considerable, if dwindling, weight on the outside. In this adversarial, pluralistic editing world of Wikipedia, it is, in my opinion, not a bad thing that Israel boosters keep trying - within the rules of the game - to leave their imprint on IP articles, even if they are pretty consistently shot down.
Reviewing the edits by Gilabrand cited as violations of the discretionary sanctions of 21 July 2013, I can read them as either sly efforts to introduce Israeli propaganda into the Wikipedia, or as good-faith edits by a sincere editor who views the world through a pro-Israeli Weltschaum. Take a couple of random examples of the edits cited above: Walid Khalidi is indeed an Arab historian, even if he prefers to be called Palestinian. One could question if the fact that Habonim is built on lands of a former Palestinian village needs to be in the lead of the article, or is better placed further down. And so on. The edits are almost universally ones of spin, not of factual inaccuracies.
Please don't misunderstand: I think it is a good thing that, in almost every case, Gilabrand's pro-Israeli edits have been rejected. I am especially pissed off about her attempt to remove criticisms of MEMRI from the lead of the article - that lead is the outcome of a compromise that I personally worked hard to achieve. But I don't think that, prima facie, her behavior merits sanction. Ravpapa (talk) 06:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Response to Sandstein
You argue passionately for neutrality by editors. But the question of neutrality, especially in the IP arena, is not at all clear. For example: is it neutral to include in the lead of an article on an Israeli town or village the name of an Arab village that was destroyed there before 1948? The fact that Kafr Lam once stood where Kibbutz Habonim is today is certainly notable, and should be in the article. But should it be in the lead? Mind you, I think it should be in the lead; but I am, I think, sanguine enough to understand that that is my own point of view, it is not a "neutral" presentation of things. I contend that the only way to get close to neutrality is to keep the editing floor open to all viewpoints. Insist on discussion, demand respect for the rules, but don't kick out the editors - from either side - because they believe passionately in one thing or another.
Statement by Ykantor
I am Israeli, but not necessarily agree with all of Gilabrand opinions. Looking at #4 Diff (which is not the mentioned one) , Gilabrand deleted indeed the " information of the depopulation of Arab villages" (other than Jisr az-Zarka) and her reason was:" article is about Jisr az-Zarka". What is wrong with this deletion?
I encounter a lot of similar pro Palestinian UNDUE and POV pushing. Actually, The Arab Israeli conflict articles are full of anti Israeli POV (e.g. [20]). Even a simple factual sentence ("The arabs rejected any form of partition") was repeatedly deleted , and those editors fought against it in the DRN until, eventually a similar sentence was accepted. Bear in mind, the this sentence had plenty of supporting RS, while there is no RS supporting the opposite view.
Even if Gilabrand was not right in some of those points, please keep in mind this general situation. Ykantor (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
I am chipping in simply to note that this complaint allowed us to enjoy a reminder of Ravpapa's wonderful substitution of the expected Weltanschauung with the deviously subversive Weltschaum in his generous remarks above. The first time round I just squeaked with private delight. Today, it lead me back to a train of Buddhist thoughts, well captured in H.W. Bailey's remark about his life being 'a faint streak on the surface of the tossing world of Samsāra'. Arnold Toynbee, A Study of History, OUP, vol.10, (1954) p.16 n.2. To speak of a 'a pro-Israeli Weltschaum,' rather than a Weltanschauung is to dismiss it as 'froth', and froth by definition cannot be 'deeply ingrained'. But even Bailey had his lapses: 'toss' in 'the tossing world' is deliciously vulgar, and cannot have escaped the sensibility of a man who knew about 50 languages that he thought our existence as a dab on the froth of existence a bit of a wank. A 'faint streak on the tossing world' reminds one of this.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Debresser. No one doubts Gilabrand is an excellent copy-editor with a real sense of encyclopedic style. However, on the few pages which I have on my watchlist where she occasionally turns up, the style is also one of hit-and-run edits which often need to be reverted. Hit-and-run because (this is memory, I hope not playing me false) if reverted she rarely returns to the talk page. If one makes an edit and it is challenged one should argue for it. I now see her contribs shows a commendably high level of on-article edits, with little talk page discussion (most of us sigh with envy, bogged down in absurd talk page justifications as we are). In copyediting she goes through a page in one edit, often, which throws out the baby with the bathwater. I.e.,
- here at Sykes-Picot Agreement massive removal on the grounds it was ‘off-topic’. Well, actually it was well sourced material contextualizing the agreement in period negotiations that lead to that agreement. Technically all 'background' sections in all I/P articles would have to be removed if she was correct policy-wise in her edit summary.
- Debresser. No one doubts Gilabrand is an excellent copy-editor with a real sense of encyclopedic style. However, on the few pages which I have on my watchlist where she occasionally turns up, the style is also one of hit-and-run edits which often need to be reverted. Hit-and-run because (this is memory, I hope not playing me false) if reverted she rarely returns to the talk page. If one makes an edit and it is challenged one should argue for it. I now see her contribs shows a commendably high level of on-article edits, with little talk page discussion (most of us sigh with envy, bogged down in absurd talk page justifications as we are). In copyediting she goes through a page in one edit, often, which throws out the baby with the bathwater. I.e.,
- here at Negev Bedouin, an article which historically underplays drastically any serious indication of the problems. Again good copy-editing, but a large amount of material relevant to the subject was dropped in one huge edit.
- She often elides material without even checking what the sources say. E.g.
- here, at Shuafat. Again there is the unnecessary removal of documented material regarding damage done by Israel. She didn’t check Morris, the source, in copyediting. That is shown by the fact that note 22 lacks pagination to Morris. Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, Cambridge UP, 2004 p.237,345-6 gives the details which, if checked, would have lead to a better reformulation (including the destruction the Palmach visited on the village) of the sentence. One should never copyedit without checking a source. Source-control is one of the things that makes many of us very slow sometimes unproductive editors volume-wise, but it is a sine qua non of any rewriting of an article. Nishidani (talk) 14:10, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
DeborahJay:'I'm deeply concerned about the integrity of all WP EN articles about Israel, certainly NPOV'.
- I don't include your thoughtful post among several here that rumor-monger about a clique out to get at 'Israel' or 'pro-Israeli editors'. This has often been insinuated here, and the only effect is to make me careful about not joining every AE complaint, if only to forestall an unwarranted perception that a 'pro-Pal' group is gaming things here. But it does share with many the idea that this is 'about Israel'. I can't speak for others, but I have always thought the job I took on in this area concerned the elephant in the room, Palestine/Palestinians. Very few of those who are worried about this complaint think that it's also about Palestinians: they are worried about Israel being correctly interpreted.
- When I began, this area had two editors of Palestinian descent, and the situation hasn't changed (well, one retired: the other has thankfully purely cultural historic interests in the Arab world) That was anomalous. Obviously as an editor I tend to see the overall picture as many Israelis from Uri Avnery, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Avi Shlaim to Yehuda Elkana and hundreds of others in the Israeli commentariat interpret things. This doesn't translate into being 'anti-Israel'. As to editing, my rule is very simple: cite what Israeli mainstream papers report, or what the industrious academic industry from TAU to Yale and Harvard peer-reviewed works report. What is intensely disliked here or dismissed as 'anti-Israeli' in many cases is a dislike for one side of an infra-Israeli/Jewish debate, as duly cited in articles.
- And, as for Gilabrand, I think several of us open acknowledge her value to wikipedia. I hope Sandstein's suggestion is modulated, so that she can stay on board. One solution is that she should promise never to edit out material or euphemize facts concerning Palestinians given in RS. Tag it. Ask any number of editors to look over it, esp. if she does a large scale rewrite,etc. Nishidani (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- A confusion seems to be developing in which the 'pro-Israel'/'pro Palestine' breakdown of editors is taking shape. Taking care that one side or another is not improperly represented does not mean necesarily that one edits in a partisan fashion, or pushes a POV. Quite simply, we have a conflict between two nations, and the variegated realities of that conflict are to be represented neutrally. Neutrality does not mean however that must find some facts to justify one side or another. What neutrality requires is that all the relevant facts in the available RS be given their place with due weight so that readers are not reading a screed that tilts their opinions one way or another. When I dropped that note to Zero, who was commenting on one of Gilabrand's edits, and which was collapsed (quite correctly) as out of its proper place, I was linking him to a page that had further details which might, if researched more deeply, show that the two Palestinians were killed in a retaliatory raid for the rape of a Jewish woman in Jerusalem and several murders. If Gilabrand falsified the data there would be no excuse. But had she looked more deeply, she might have found material like this, and, while keeping the language of the citation she erased, contextualized it in conformity with both RS and an Israeli perspective. NPOV is broken, in my view, when, in making edits, one consistently ignores all the relevant detail in the sources one cites. Good sources are often more comprehensive than the edits we make from them.
- She often elides material without even checking what the sources say. E.g.
- There are many pages which by their nature give one side of the picture. Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel and all its year by year subpages (9 of them) are such (attempts to balance that perspective by creating parallel pages for IDF attacks on the Gaza Strip or in the West Bank have all suffered almost immediate deletion because reliable sources that cover that side are, to make an understatement, totally inadequate, though we have a lone List of Israeli attacks on Gaza, 2009. List of Israeli price tag attacks was forked off from Price tag policy because it was a list, by an editor who did not appear to think that leaving the main page as basically profiling Israeli condemnations of those events was as problematical as the list of facts themselves. If one edits these kinds of pages one should, but editors rarely do (often because the work load if you do this is enormous, and time-consuming), give any further relevant context provided by sources. In reading of the last price tag attack against a Palestinian village, one can see that its perpetrators were apparently responding to the murder of a younng IDF soldier. Both should be added. If some of the Israeli-Arab activist Juliano Mer-Khamis's students ended up as suicide bombers, that must be put in, though some might think it stains his record. But if the circumstances are known that some of the bombers decided to act as terrorists after their mothers, or acquaintances were killed, that too goes in. The more detail, the closer to NPOV, because reality is invariably too complex to allow of simple partisan judgements. At Ezra Nawi, editors critical of the man pressed for the inclusion of details of his pedophilia conviction; other editors, many of them often identified as pro-Palestinian, citing WP:BLP reverted material including it. The answer was simply to thoroughly research the topic and give it complete coverage.
- NPOV means surely, hewing precisely to everything RS provide, and, in general articles, complying with the obligation to see that the narrative vectors of conflicting POVs are balanced towards neutrality, and not cherrypicking stuff, or euphemizing, to write up an account that makes one or another party feel happy. Just forage for the facts and to hell with the POV consequences, is usually a good rule of thumb.Nishidani (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Brewcrewer
@Sandstein. I'll call bullshit on this one as each and every singly commentator here can be banned based on your outlined reasons. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nomoskedasticity
Now that Gilabrand has posted her response, we can have a good impression of what the future holds if action is not taken per this request. In a nutshell: much more of the same. I do hope that she is not given a green light to carry on in this mode. Given the prior history, Sandstein's perspective is the right one. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Quadell: your view is quite dangerous, I think. If widely adopted, it would mean that the POV of our articles would boil down to the relative proportions of active editors on opposing sides. Now, you might think that that's how things work it practice -- but it is highly undesirable to take the view that this is how things should work. Things really ought to work the opposite way: we should expect each individual editor to contribute to the process of bringing articles into line with NPOV. I think it's quite evident that Gilabrand does not contribute to such a process. If the same can be said for other editors, then they too should be dealt with. To do otherwise is to issue an invitation for endless competition and gaming. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- @User:Iric2012: whose sock are you?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Debresser
First of all let me state that even though Gilabrand and I have had our differences, I have found this editor to be responsive to reasonable argument on talkpages. Therefore I would in any case argue for discussion, rather than measures.
As to the diffs provided by the editor who opened this complaint:
- Diff number 3: It may very well be that Gilabrand was not aware of the change in title that tok place in January. I also wasn't.
- Diff number 5: The legal status of Israeli settlements is a complex issue, and I have mostly seen it treated in a separate section with the lead of the article mentioning no more than that it is "a matter of discussion" or something like that.
- Diff number 9: Where these museums are located is absolutely not relevant to that line. If anything, it should be no more than a side mention.
- Diff number 10: If he has Israeli citizenship, then he is an "Israeli Arab". That is the official term. He can also be an ethical Palestinian, but in the context it makes more sense to mention the first, and in any case it is true.
It is not hard to find diffs from editors who regularly edit in this controversial field, that show a POV. The question is whether that POV leads to intentional disregard of Wikipedia rules and guidelines. This collection of diffs shows a POV, but no disregard for Wikipedia rules and guidelines, and I am confident that discussion on talkpages would have been enough to reach consensus with this editor. Debresser (talk) 10:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by IZAK
In a nutshell User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is being subjected to not so subtle WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CYBERBULLYING by editors who express a POV that can be summed up as waving a little flag called "WP:IDONTLIKEIT". The accusations against her are also a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED as well as an abuse of WP:LAWYERING.
There are so far few eloquent English speaking Israelis and Jewish editors to do the tough job that Gilabrand does -- to give an alternate explanation and defense to too much blatant pro-PLO, Pro-Arab anti-Israel pushing on WP that is mind-numbing and boring if not outright stupid in its results.
Bottom line: This entire debate is too hilarious for words because of course every editor has a personal POV but as responsible editors we adhere to WP:NPOV as best we can. There is no denying that User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) works to present an Israeli perspective but it is within acceptable bounds. It is absurd to accept that "all" editors who edit I-P topics should sound and act as if they are working for Al Jazeera (hey guess what guys, this may come as a shock to you, but: Wikipedia is NOT Al Jazeera !) or as hired PR flacks for the PLO or Hamas or Hizubbullah or the Ayatolas of Iran etc.
Editors such as Gilabrand are obviously loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view on these subjects cited by the complaint and they will always exist. Duh!!! Just as they cannot be dismissed or ignored or exterminated in the real world by Israel's enemies, they cannot be dismissed or ignored by punishing good editors on WP who come on board who should be debated but not crushed as this complaint is trying to do.
WP cannot be "holier than thou" than the real world by trying to crush any editor who comes along wanting to insert a healthy debate and alternate views that exist out there in the world, that no amount of WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CENSOR will achieve.
It only cheapens WP to crush and humiliate Gilabrand rather than discussing points rationally. And it is a cop-out to take this short-cut rather than debate her point by point, that comes across as a "cyber thought control policeman" acting to enforce "UN resolutions" when WP is neither part of the UN nor does it belong to any majority or minority be they Arabs or Jews. WP has to be fair to all because it is an online ENCYCLOPEDIA and it is not a place to wage WP:WAR. Yes, editing WP takes skill and it is a tough job, but to take out the hatched and try to proverbially "kill off" your opponent rather than engaging in proper intellectual debate and work on the technical and policy aspects of WP editing is disgusting to watch, and soon there will only be anti-Israel editors running what is already a pretty well-known debacle and degradation as more and more (like a doomed sinking Titanic of verbal huckstering) WP takes on the default role as a front for the delegitimization of the Israeli POV (yes it's a POV, just as the PLO has POV and Hamas has a POV).
Okay, so let's imagine, tomorrow Gilabrand is banned or blocked forever. Does that make WP a better place? Will all the critics be happy talking to themselves now that political correctness and groupthink are enforced? It would be yet another Pyrrhic victory that only silly small-minded people could enjoy. Gilabrand is not an "ogre" -- she is a friend of WP as hard to believe that some here may find that to be, and she can be engaged on equal terms. She is smart and knows her facts, and just because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT it is no reason that she should be taken down. WP needs Gilabrand and more editors like her. IZAK (talk) 21:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by DGG
Izak, who is well aware that I disagree with him on many related issues, asked me to come here. If anyone therefore wants to move my statement out of the uninvolved category, they are free do do so, but I never edit in this area, and never intend to. I agree with the criticism of most of the specific edits by Gilabrand referred to in the complaint--they do represent an attempt to affect the wording in a particular direction. In the context of all of her edits, and in the context of the sharp disagreements in this area, the question is whether they represent a trivial or a significant violation of neutrality. Looking at all of her contributions, there are a great many excellent ones related in some degree to Israeli affairs not involving directly events in the conflict, but essentially any topic in the geographic area is related in some indirect way, if only in the question of geographic names. Indeed, some of the edits complained of were of this nature. The argument that others editing in this area have to some degree a bias in the opposite direction and cannot avoid demonstrating it in subtle ways is correct. Some of her recent edits, such as those on Murder of Hatuel family seem to bring the balance back to neutrality, rather than away from it. I know that in principle we do not try to attain NPOV by balancing opposite biases but by NPOV writing, but I doubt that anyone working in this field can avoid being affected by their POV. (This is one reason why I do not edit here.) The question is the overall contributions made, and I do not feel we can afford to lose her work entirely. Any topic ban enacted in the broad terms that Sandstein proposes would affect too much of her work, and very possibly would lead to bias in the opposite direction. I do not think on balance that her editing is disruptive, and I do not think her editing is beyond her ability to self-correct. DGG ( talk ) 23:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Yoninah
My experience with Gilabrand is limited to articles about Jerusalem neighborhoods, but on those pages I have seen nothing along the lines of what Sepsis and others are claiming. Gilabrand provides balance and neutrality to these pages, in contrast to the POV diatribe posted by the vociferously pro-Arab, Israel-bashing editors that haunt Wikipedia. On the Neve Yaakov page in particular, I see her consistently revert POV statements[21] and provide citations for challenged material[22]. Rather than topic-banning Gilabrand, I think you should go after the anonymous and not-so-anonymous editors who are doing everything they can to blacken Israel's name without any concern for neutrality or out-and-out libel. Yoninah (talk) 23:19, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by MichaelNetzer
It's noticeable in the tension between the two sides, that the encyclopedic quality of much of the Israeli oriented WP editing is lacking - while editors on the other side often demonstrate far better understanding, skill and ability to remain within WP guidelines. There have been far too many seemingly young impetuous editors who make no secret of an emotionally driven purpose to try to defend Israel, while perhaps not realizing they often compromise some of the basic tenets of the project.
Gila Brand is not one of these, however.
Most of the editors on the other side work well together (as this complaint shows) and are far better at making a case that behooves the spirit of the encyclopedia. The Arab-Israeli conflict on WP resonates with this imbalance of editorial skill. On the one hand, it's resulted in a somewhat pro-Arab view that dominates many of the articles dealing with the conflict, which may be desired for the sake of neutrality and balance. On the other, it seems important to try to keep this thrust in check, so the encyclopedia can remain as close to neutral as possible - and avoid veering too far to one side.
Sandstein does a fine job here, but we can all jump the gun sometimes and not give enough consideration to some nuances. It doesn't seem possible to achieve balance through an absolute neutrality of all the editors. Wikipedia seems to rather reflect a tug-of-war that strives for that elusive center, which is perhaps how it should be. Seems that it's this tension that has made the encyclopedia what it is.
Gila Brand's contributions to the subject area, her skills, knowledge and goodwill for community, that come from a visible high regard for the project, cannot be overstated.
It seems reasonable to reconsider the suggestion for an indefinite ban. MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:01, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by 174.44.174.192
This editor is now topic-banned. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Gilabrand is being attacked by a small group of editors who frequently push the Palestinian POV and try to prevent debates on talk pages. This group includes Sean.Hoyland, Nishidani, Nableezy, Zero, and several others including this Sepsis character. Sepsis attempted to prevent an appeal regarding the content and a related discussion on the talk page of Two state solution along with help from this group. This group is now going after Gilabrand (who reverted the deletion) because she will not give in to their attempt to stifle any debate and any attempt to push the discussion away from the Palestinian narrative. There is no question in my mind that this AE request is totally based on POV, since those speaking against Gilabrand frequently tolerate similar behavior from those who are in accord with their own POV. Therefore, I oppose any topic ban on Gilabrand without a similar topic ban on the aforementioned list of highly POV editors. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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Statement by ZScarpia
The best way for Gilabrand to defend herself would be to produce some examples from her thousands of edits which show her striving to produce neutral text.
Looking through the preceding statements, there are a couple of aspects which I find striking. It would have occurred to an editor who was making an effort to appear neutral that the unqualified use of a term such as 'infiltrator' might be seen as a bit POVish (in the same way that terrorist, freedom fighter etc. are) and that it would be a good idea to provide explanatory detail in the article and, perhaps, on the talkpage. On the removal of text in the Lead of the MEMRI article, Gilabrand justifies it on the grounds that it was unsourced. An experienced editor should know that uncited material in the Lead may actually be sourced in the body of the article, which was true in that case.
It's been a long time since Gilabrand's editing of articles has coincided with mine, but something that sticks in my memory is how her signature used to read Nopleezy, one of the most juvenile attempts at baiting another editor that I've seen on Wikipedia.
← ZScarpia 20:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Deborahjay
While my field of expertise is Holocaust history (and I'm a professional editor and translator for an Israeli museum archives), as a naturalized Israeli since the mid-1980s I'm deeply concerned about the integrity of all WP EN articles about Israel, certainly NPOV. I'm also an inclusionist. That being stated: the description above by User:Nishidani and others of Gilabrand's "wholesale" editing, removing sourced material and removing unsourced material rather than tagging it for citation and/or bringing it to the article's Talk page, seems to be improper WP editing practice. Pace Gilabrand's quantity of editing activity and undisputed writing skills, the selective rewriting and excising of content written properly by any editor strikes me as unacceptable bordering on disruptive to this collaborative encyclopedia project. At worst it's intellectually dishonest. A writer and editor conscientious on matters involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict can uphold the principles of balanced copy (e.g. the media's use of "militant" rather than "terrorist/freedom-fighter"). I ask whether there might be an interim phase before the proposed topic ban, to obtain Gilabrand's good-faith agreement to adhere to the slower but fairer and accepted editing practices of (a) not removing sourced material, (b) requesting citations for the unsourced, and (c) challenging questionable content on the article's Talk page, soliciting a response from that content's editor, enlisting knowledgeable editors' input, etc. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by AgadaUrbanit
The following valid points raised above were not addressed :
- It doesn't seem possible to achieve balance through an absolute neutrality of all the editors. Wikipedia seems to rather reflect a tug-of-war that strives for that elusive center, which is perhaps how it should be. Seems that it's this tension that has made the encyclopedia what it is.
- A pattern of adding pro-Israel (or pro-Palestine) material is a bad reason for a topic ban.
AgadaUrbanit (talk) 14:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Bus stop
I think the diffs are largely a function of interpretation. Gilabrand is a knowledgeable editor contributing valuable content to a topic—the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—in which WP:NPOV can be found within an unusually wide margin of possible acceptability. The arguments that arise are not necessarily limited to the support found in reliable sources but rather the language used to express in our own words what those sources say. WP:NPOV is a concept that we aspire to. But WP:NPOV is not 100% defined down to the umpteenth degree. There is no mechanical way to say that the wording chosen by an editor is right on target for WP:NPOV. I think Gilabrand tried her best not to be in violation of WP:NPOV but of course counterarguments can be made. I think we see those counterarguments being made here. Should Gilabrand be prevented from participating in editing within the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" area? I don't think so. I think that would be a step in the direction of eroding Wikipedia's knowledge base in this area. Bus stop (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Iric2012
I disagree with the view that editors who edit in such a way as to represent predominately one side of a debate are violating policy. I doubt the folks advocating this viewpoint would support it once their own editing history is scrutinized. Starting with the filer of this complaint, and looking at his recent contributions to the I/P domain:
- [23] Reverts Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, in order to state that Fatah's ideology is "pacifism", rather than armed conflict
- [24] removes criticism of the BDS movement
- [25] changes "Israel" to "Palestine"
- [26] changes "Israel" to "Palestine"
- [27] adds criticism of Israel
- [28] removes criticism of a source critical of Israel
- [29] removes information about the nature of the terrorist attacks committed by prisoners that Israel was releasing
- [30] Replaces "Israel" with "what had been Mandatory Palestine"
Or take by Nomoskedasticity:
- [31] removes a statement from a prominent Rabbi who says it is forbidden to kill non-Jews
- [32] mass deletion (3K) of sourced materiel challenging Palestinian claims to be "natives" of Palestine
- [33] replaces "Orthodox Jew" with "mass murderer"
- [34] replaces "member of Kach" with "mass murderer"
- [35] replaces "Israel" with "Palestinian territories"
- [36] replaces "Arab" with 'Palestinian' - i.e- EXACTLY what Gilabrand was accused of in diff #1, only reversed.
Note that I am not getting into the question of whether or not these edits can be individually defended. Maybe they can, maybe they can't - but it is undeniable that taken collectively, they show a pattern of editing exclusively from one side of the issue (the pro-Palestinian one), and according to the view espoused by Sandstien et. al, that is a violation of the NPOV policy which should lead to a quick topic ban for the filer of the complaint, or Nomoskedasticity Iric2012 (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Gilabrand
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
The evidence that has been submitted, as well as a review of Gilabrand's contributions, is indicative of a sustained effort by Gilabrand to make Wikipedia's coverage of issues related to the Arab-Israeli conflict reflect a particularly Israeli point of view. This violates the core policy WP:NPOV in its aspect as a conduct rule ("all editors and articles must follow it"). All editors are required to edit Wikipedia from a neutral, rather than a particular point of view. While there may be legitimate disagreement about what is neutral in any given case, a pattern of conduct that consistently favors one point of view is not reflective of an effort in favor of neutrality. There may well be good reasons for many of these edits considered individually, and some of them may well have been improvements from a neutrality or other editorial point of view, but this one-sided pattern of conduct as a whole is not conducive to making Wikipedia in its entirety more neutral, but rather the opposite. In other words, the neutrality policy does not accept that Wikipedia articles are the result of a tug-of-war between ideologically opposed camps that sometimes find a grudging compromise; rather, the policy expects neutral conduct from each and every individual editor. – Considering Gilabrand's very long block log for topic-related misconduct, which dates back to 2008, I think an indefinite topic ban from everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict is indicated. Sandstein 15:02, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this assessment. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:08, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'm a little concerned about this. Our NPOV policy is non-negotiable, and we're all expected to adhere to it, but that doesn't mean an editor is violating the policy if he only contributes to one side. For instance, I am fully convinced that global warming is a real phenomenon that is at least partly caused by human action, and I recognize that there is a significant, notable group that claims the opposite. If I consistently add sourced content to articles that promotes one side (consensus statements by climatology groups, for instance), and I leave it to the denialists to add RSes that support the other side, I'm still contributing positively to Wikipedia. Now I'm not saying that Gilabrand's edits have all been so constructive, but I am saying it's a misreading of our NPOV policy to say that editors are violating that policy when they contribute only to one side. Articles have to reflect a neutral POV, giving all sides due weight, but a given Wikipedian's edits do not have to reflect all sides equally. Ideally they will, and I try to do this myself, but it's not a valid reason for a topic ban, as I see it. – Quadell (talk) 20:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Follow-up: It occurs to me that the reason I rarely edit contentious areas (such as Israel/Palestine articles) is that it can be extremely unpleasant; just the amount of verbiage to dig through can be daunting. This is why nearly all editors of these topics tend to have a clear bias (e.g. "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"): it's often the only motivator powerful enough to make it worth the hassle to edit in these areas. (Even editors who believe they're being "neutral" are often fooling themselves here.) The beautiful thing about the NPOV policy is that it often makes the end result NPOV, so long as the editors involved are willing to abide by the rules, despite their POVs. (I'm not saying anything new here, of course.)
- So what do we do with an editor who is willing to be civil, not remove sourced content, etc., but still has a clear and consistent bias in the information they add? (I've no opinion on whether Gilabrand falls into this category; it's more of a "best-case" scenario.) If we topic ban people for this, which is I think what Sandstein's result would call for, then to be fair, we'd have to topic ban 95% of the people who actually edit in these controversial areas. In some ways that might seem like a pleasant outcome, but there are a lot of repercussions to consider. To require that every edit (or series of edits) be balanced from both sides is not a standard I've seen consistently applied, and if we start to attempt to enforce this standard, I think it would create a lot more problems than it solves. – Quadell (talk) 21:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Quadell, I understand your concerns, but our job here is to enforce the conduct policies as they are written, and WP:NPOV pretty clearly requires every individual editor to edit neutrally. We can't condone editors misusing Wikipedia to promote their particular point of view, even if they do it politely and through superficially unproblematic edits. If that means that we need to topic-ban a majority of editors now active in the topic, then so be it; their removal may give other, less partisan individuals, who may now be intimidated by the aggressive editing environment, more room to work and to improve the articles rather than pushing them back and forth between competing ideological perspectives. Sandstein 19:39, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- We may have a fundamental disagreement about what WP:NPOV requires of editors (rather than just what it encourages editors to strive for). And it's okay for us to disagree; but I'd like to understand exactly what your position is, since it seems to have some support. Are you saying that editors must not edit in a way that, in the aggregate, consistently favors one side of a controversial issue? And that doing so is worthy of sanction that can include a topic ban? If that's the route we want to take, it has to be applied fairly to all who edit articles on controversial topics. (Please note: I'm not claiming that this is the only problem with Gilabrand's edits. I haven't examined them as thoroughly as EdJohnston recommends below. I just want to understand your position on this question, so that I'm not misinterpreting you.) – Quadell (talk) 21:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- My view is this: If editors consistently edit to promote only one side of a controversial issue, then that is evidence of intent to make Wikipedia as a whole less neutral, and that is misconduct that can result in a topic ban depending on the length and intensity of the misconduct as well as prior sanctions. Sandstein 09:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- We may have a fundamental disagreement about what WP:NPOV requires of editors (rather than just what it encourages editors to strive for). And it's okay for us to disagree; but I'd like to understand exactly what your position is, since it seems to have some support. Are you saying that editors must not edit in a way that, in the aggregate, consistently favors one side of a controversial issue? And that doing so is worthy of sanction that can include a topic ban? If that's the route we want to take, it has to be applied fairly to all who edit articles on controversial topics. (Please note: I'm not claiming that this is the only problem with Gilabrand's edits. I haven't examined them as thoroughly as EdJohnston recommends below. I just want to understand your position on this question, so that I'm not misinterpreting you.) – Quadell (talk) 21:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Quadell, I understand your concerns, but our job here is to enforce the conduct policies as they are written, and WP:NPOV pretty clearly requires every individual editor to edit neutrally. We can't condone editors misusing Wikipedia to promote their particular point of view, even if they do it politely and through superficially unproblematic edits. If that means that we need to topic-ban a majority of editors now active in the topic, then so be it; their removal may give other, less partisan individuals, who may now be intimidated by the aggressive editing environment, more room to work and to improve the articles rather than pushing them back and forth between competing ideological perspectives. Sandstein 19:39, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- My own view of Wikipedia policy is closer to what Sandstein said than to Quadell. But I don't think we need to resolve that here. Admins probably have to look at the 13 diffs supplied by User:Sepsis II in enough detail to see if there is a problem of tendentious editing by Gilabrand. I've examined diffs 7-13 in detail and looked briefly at 1-6. At least 80% of what is stated in Sepsis II's high-level summaries appears to be correct. I reached no conclusion about diff #6 because it's a judgment call on whether the change to the Goldhagen article makes it slanted and I think diff #8, Shebaa farms, has been changed by Gilabrand only to add more negative information about the Arab side but it's properly sourced. So I would not count diff #8 in our analysis.
- What do we think about the set of 11 surviving diffs, and are they a case for tendentious editing by Gilabrand? Here's what I conclude:
- Gilabrand has never posted on the talk pages of any of these articles
- She has made changes of Israeli settlement wording with no evidence of consensus. Settlement wording has been the topic of many past disputes, and if I recall an RfC on the subject (closed by User:Sandstein), there is supposed to be a new talk page consensus on each article on how to describe settlements in the lead.
- She makes individuals described as Palestinian into Israeli Arabs with no understandable rationale. (I don't know which is correct in these cases, but I imagine that's a subject of dispute)
- She has removed wording about bad things that happened to Arab villages on land which is now occupied by Israelis.
- I hope that other admins or uninvolved editors will take at least a quick look at the 13 diffs to see what they conclude. Since Gilabrand has answered this AE and seems to be completely confident about all of her changes, if this AE is closed with no sanctions or advice we can probably look forward to more edits by Gilagrand of the same kind. Her edits (at least in the diffs submitted) always leave the article more favorable to one side of the dispute than it was when she arrived. EdJohnston (talk) 00:44, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- I believe that policy and precedent are being woefully misstated here. The NPOV policy focuses on the communal end results of editing process, and with individual editing to minimize POV issues. It does not require that individual editors edit in a neutral manner, and provides specific examples for how to edit from one point of view without damaging the coverage of another one.
- It is important that no editor grossly abuse POV - we have WP:SOAPBOX and WP:BATTLEGROUND for those. But we do not and should not expect each individual editor to act in a neutral manner here. Nobody can attain that, realistically. It's a goal I personally strive for, on intellectual rigor grounds, but our system here is designed around typical editors and eventualistic balance in articles.
- I do not see any claim or evidence Gilabrand rising to the standards we normally set for SOAP or BATTLE.
- I agree that given prior arbcom findings, a heightened scrutiny may be applicable here. I don't see any dispute that Gilabrand is editing this topic with a single point of view. But are the edits bad? No. Some of them appear to have been reversed or incorrect, but they appear so in an ordinary manner, not an abusive or disruptive one.
- NPOV is not a crowbar to beat off opposing viewpoints. As long as Gilabrand is engaging constructively with feedback and corrections to their contributions, and not making a pattern of actually bad edits, there is no case here. Individual POV is not a crime. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:09, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- I have to disagree here. Your assertion that editing articles with the intent or effect of promoting a particular point of view is not misconduct is merely an assertion, unbased on policy, and directly contradicts the wording of WP:NPOV that "all ... editors are required to follow" that policy. Based also on EdJohnston's analysis, if there are no further admin objections, I intend to impose an indefinite topic ban. For clarity, any editors from the "other side" of the geopolitical dispute should be sanctioned likewise if evidence of longterm one-sided editing coupled with a lengthy sanctions log is submitted to this board. Sandstein 09:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, the NPOV policy does say that all editors "must" follow the policy. But that policy only says that articles "must" represent all points of view, "must not" take sides, etc. It does not say that editors "must" represent both sides in their edits, and historically we haven't required that of editors (although we certainly encourage it). Sandstein, you've been very clear and consistent in your interpretation of NPOV policy (and I thank you for that), and there's been one uninvolved admin who clearly concurs with your assessment, along with one has stated that his/her view on the policy is closer to yours than mine. But there have also been two uninvolved admins (including myself) who clearly disagree with your interpretation of policy, and who think a topic-ban of anyone on that basis alone would be a bad idea.
- I think it's a better idea to take EdJohnston's approach and make a ruling based on whether the evidence shows a pattern of problematic editing worthy of sanction, without having to make a widespread ruling that will affect many editors of controversial topics based on a contested interpretation of policy. – Quadell (talk) 16:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sandstein, you are assigning your own new novel interpretation of NPOV. NPOV has *never* been interpreted as to require editors to be individually neutral in all things, in the PIA area or any other. You're conflating NPOV and SOAP/BATTLE, which cover excessive biased viewpoint, not normal opinions. Your statements above do not amount to a legitimate cause for imposing a topic ban. If this is the basis for your claimed topic ban then I will appeal such a ban to AN immediately.
- Again - if you have specifics that rise to the level of SOAP/BATTLE, a pattern, even assuming heightened scrutiny per the prior case and unblock conditions, please lay that case out in a better manner. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- I have to disagree here. Your assertion that editing articles with the intent or effect of promoting a particular point of view is not misconduct is merely an assertion, unbased on policy, and directly contradicts the wording of WP:NPOV that "all ... editors are required to follow" that policy. Based also on EdJohnston's analysis, if there are no further admin objections, I intend to impose an indefinite topic ban. For clarity, any editors from the "other side" of the geopolitical dispute should be sanctioned likewise if evidence of longterm one-sided editing coupled with a lengthy sanctions log is submitted to this board. Sandstein 09:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Pluto2012
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Pluto2012
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Pluto2012 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 1 November 2013 1st time deletion of a supported and notable sentence
- 4 November 2013 2nd time deletion of the same sentence
- 8 November 2013 3rd time deletion of the same sentence
- 14 November 2013 4th time deletion of the same sentence
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 2 November 2013 by Ykantor (talk · contribs)
- Warned on 14 November 2013 by Ykantor (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
We were discussing the problem in the article talk page in order to achieve a consensus. Among 5 participating users, 3 (me, user:Ykantor and User:Ynhockey,User:Kipa Aduma, Esq.) want this supported and notable sentence to be in the article. user:Huldra (she) was against it and initially deleted the sentence, but later I was in the process of discussing with her what is the context she wanted to add to this sentence. The 5th one is user:Pluto2012 who was busy repeatedly deleting this sentence , and not cooperating in the consensus building process.
Note: an administrator user:Zero0000 may join and describe me as "horrible" while Pluto is "excellent". It has helped Pluto a lot in the past, and might help him again. But eventually, people will realize who is really the "bad" guy, and who is the "good" guy.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Pluto2012
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Pluto2012
Ykantor refuses to see any responsability in his behaviour and will not change this and he goes on with his WP:harassment and WP:Point.
This last week :
- He wrote before the closure of the former request : We have been told that "Pluto deserves a medal". let us extend it and have him knighted with the title "Wikipedia distinguished deleter". I do not mind if he gets a medal, But I do not like to be harassed by him using questionable methods. e.g. cheating, deleting my edit in an article (and subject) he has never being interested before, or deleting for no reason. If he gets medals only, with no warning about those methods, he will continue unabashed. Please. Please. While giving him a medal, just tell him to avoid those methods Ykantor (talk) 21:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- The former request had just been close by that he went on the discussion on sandstein's talk page : here.
- About cooperating to the consensus building process :
- Ykantor launched yesterday 6 different topics on the talk page of the article about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. (An article on which he already launched at least 20 discussions.) But he didn't follow any of these 6 and on the contrary prefer starting this WP:A/E.
- After his complain on WP:A/E, I left the endless WP:DRN he had engaded (even not against me). His comment on the "consensus" that was reached illustrates his total rejection of any collaboration. He wrote : "I agree. As said, The sentence is OK, but since it is cumbersome, I keep the right to use a portion only, where and if it suits the situation, without changing the meaning."... The portion is the core of the disagreement... The fact Arabs would have rejected "any partition plan".
- This can be compared with the way I and others proceed :
- Regarding the "content" of this current complain : "Kipa Aduma" is just a sock and his comments were "removed" from the discussion by Huldra. On the contrary of what Ykantor claims, Huldra still disagrees and the last comments on that talk page are mine and are still waiting for his "reply".
- Mention of "good guy" vs "bad guy" here above. The dichotomy of the world made by Ykantor convinces me he is unable to comply with the principle of WP:NPoV because he simply cannot think that way. That the same when he refuses to look for or introduce information that does not comply with his vision, the Truth. He is not here for wikipedia; he is here to defend Israel. Regarding this last point, I'd like to refer to this Israeli new contributor who asked support to create a new article in wikipedia and that I followed and supported in all his first steps.
- Regarding the "up to where not to go too far" : He attacked me on the village pump where his request was closed. This last point has generated this reaction "against his behaviour" from Huldra on his talk page and this from Nishidani on my talk page : Vexatious forumshopping and injurious misstatements. Don't be intimidated. I would suggest you collect all diffs regarding Ykantor's recourse to A/1, AE, RSN and any other forum, and a list of the complaints he has laid against you and others for an eventual complaint over his behaviour, which is becoming obsessive in your regard. Don't hurry, though. At first I tried to treat him as a potentially good editor, against what you and Zero argued. This latest assault has changed my mind. He is ruining articles by monocular POV-pushing and by harassing neutral and knowledheable editors. Nishidani (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC).
The core of the problem of Ykantor was identified long ago on his talk page and discussed with him : he refuses to comply with NPoV and to add any information that he would not agree with and that could harm "his side". He is on wikipedia to fight for a cause and not to develop a free encyclopaedia.
The attitude of Ykantor is really obsessive towards me and is not acceptable :
- he should be banned from the articles dealing with Israel
- he should be forbidden to mention me anywhere.
Pluto2012 (talk) 04:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Reaction to Ykantor's comment about my diff comment : "obvious sock. Ready for a sacrifice in an edit war". I was of course not talking about me but about Kipa Aduma who I reverted because he is not a "real" contributor as indicated by his editcount but one of these numerous socks who are just here for trouble. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:14, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Reaction to the point : who is neutral ? Can somebody be neutral ?
- In disputes, people claim their opponent is wrong. That's normal. In wikipedia, they will claim they are neutral, stick to the facts and the other side is biaised and pov-ed. Who is it possible to deal this issue ?
- I stated on my user page that I was Ceedjee. I wrote nearly alone (let's say I am the many author) several articles that reached the status of FA, some of them were translated to wp:en :
- Battles of Latrun that is here GA
- 1947-1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine
- Note that the 1st article is about a mythical battle on the Israeli side ; that Palestians do not care about. (That's even explained in the article.)
- Others are :
- fr:Émeutes de Jérusalem de 1920 (a "progrom" against Jews...) that Zero0000 and Nishidani suggested *not to* translate here yet because too much reflecting the Israeli narrative from their piont of view (I check this and then I will discuss this issue); fr:Massacre de Qibya (an unfamous Israeli operation against Arab civilians) ; fr:Special Night Squads (an article about a mythical Israeli squad) ; The trilogy of the 1948 War fr:Protagonistes de la guerre de Palestine de 1948 ; fr:Guerre civile de 1947-1948 en Palestine mandataire ; fr:Guerre israélo-arabe de 1948...
- We are not talking about a "quote" or a few sentences. We are talking about complete articles based on thousands hours of reading and book/narrative's comparisons.
- I also wrote an article about fr:Communauté russe d'Israël (the Russian community of Israel) and my preferred is fr:Guerre des mots dans le conflit israélo-palestinien based mainly on a book by an Israeli scholar about the fights in the media (internet and wikipedia included) around the I/P conflict.
- On wp:en my contributions are more modest but I wrote nearly alone Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War that before was just a list of massacres on which "contributors" fought to add their own little massacre.
- It is totally frustrating not to say insluting that a project such as wikipedia didn't succeed in "protecting" us from people such as NoCal100 who outed me, as some of his friends who threathened me, or as Ykantor who is here only to defend the image he has of his country and its history.
- Regarding this lattest, his added value to the project is "0" and he makes lose time and pleasure to contribute to a lot of people. He should just be banned from the area of articles dealing with the topic : Israel. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Note that a complaint by Ykantor against Pluto2012 was made here only 8 days ago and was dismissed, see above.
Ykantor (the complainant) is a remarkably obsessive pov-pusher. When he decides that a sentence should be in an article, all the king's horses and all the king's men won't dissuade him. If he can't get his way by reinserting it multiple times, he'll fish for support on noticeboards and then he'll try to get rid of the editor who stands in his way. Ykantor notes that a discussion about the sentence is underway, which is true, but then he claims that the existence of the discussion means that the sentence must be in the article! It is the exact opposite of what WP:BRD advises, and a violation of the policy WP:NOCONSENSUS. His behavior seems to be getting worse day after day. (Incidentally, I have not investigated the sentence in question and don't have an opinion other than that it seems reasonable to debate its inclusion. Anyway, that's a content issue.)
Propose. That Ykantor be warned that further use of administrative noticeboards to gain advantage in content disputes will be dealt with very sternly. Zerotalk 03:27, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ykantor
the user:Zero0000 is an administrator, and his claims are supposedly more objective. But he repeatedly saves user:Pluto2012 from troubles, like this occasion, of Pluto's multiple sock puppets accounts. I will not repeat Pluto's previous names since the administrator user:Zero0000 might block me, as he already warned another user, while trying to protect Pluto. In my opinion, Zero's view here are biased toward Pluto.
he says | What really happened |
---|---|
Zero says: "is a remarkably obsessive pov-pusher. When he decides that a sentence should be in an article, all the king's horses and all the king's men won't dissuade him" | He is talking about this sentence:"The Arabs rejected any form of partition". When eventually the dispute was dealt with, the result was a very similar sentence. why? because it has plenty of supporting RS, while the other claim (The Arabs agreed to at least one form of partition) has no support at all. |
Zero blames me:"he claims that the existence of the discussion means that the sentence must be in the article" | Pluto is aware of his wrong doing: obvious sock - ready for a sacrifice in an edit war. |
Zero says:"It is the exact opposite of what WP:BRD advises, and a violation of the policy WP:NOCONSENSUS" | At his first deletion, Pluto was warned in the talk page that "there is relevant and reliably sourced content, it may be entered into the article. If others claim it is WP:UNDUE because there are other points of view, then they will need to (and it should be very easy for them to) present reliable sources showing these other points of view. The article then incorporates these other sources and then all of the major points of view are then be presented. Claims that one reliable source's view is not representative without providing sources to show the existence of other views do not stand up".. Hence, Pluto's first deletion was knowingly wrong, even before the consensus building discussion has started. |
I call Pluto to stand behind his word: obvious sock - ready for a sacrifice in an edit war. He was aware of his edit warring, and should be treated accordingly Ykantor (talk) 07:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- To Ed Johnston: yours:"He seems to be acting as a partisan for one of the contending parties". I am Israeli, but I try to be objective. Israel has been involved in wrong doing too, and in my opinion , exposing those wrong doing is better for Israel future. My interest here is improving the articles, making them more accurate and attractive to the reader too. I am the only editor who added images to these articles during the those months. The images tell the story of the ordinary people or soldiers of both sides. I try to avoid images of politicians and generals (of both sides) since they are not interesting to the reader (in my opinion). However, reading the articles, I found lot of inaccuracies, most of them anti Israeli. So I tried to fix them. Alas, the pro Arab editors do not let me correct it, or even to add it as another POV (well supported). Ykantor (talk) 18:59, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- To Ed Johnston: yours:"So far as I can tell, none of these filings was ever closed with a verdict in his favor. (Some expired with no action)".
Those DRN are:
- 6 June 2013 The volunteer started but could not continue
- 19 July 2013 "Futile, no participation by one editor" (not me, of course)
- 21 August 2013 "No extensive talk page discussion as required by this noticeboard. "
- 3 September 2013 expired. The volunteer could not continue.
- 16 September 2013 expired. The volunteer could not continue.
- 17 September 2013 Expired. No volunteer.
None of them ended normally, with a resolution. I wish all of those 6 DRN would have finished. As I already wrote in your talk page on 8 Oct 2013: "In my limited experience WP:Dispute resolution is useless. (sorry for the harsh words)"
An on going DRN Already has a verdict in my favor, concerning a sentence ("The Arabs rejected any form of partition"). The resulted compromise is very similar to this sentence. The verdict is in my favor because there are plenty of RS supporting this sentence (or equivalent) while there is not even one RS supporting the other alternative (i.e. The Arabs supported at least one form of partition). The pro Arab editors were against this sentence,(most of the regular editors) including other articles as well . It is important to repeat: The pro Arab editors fought against this sentence although there is not even one RS who supports their view.
The conclusion could be either of:
- As you said, "He seems to be acting as a partisan for one of the contending parties." (I do not agree of course)
- Those Arab - Israeli conflict articles are heavily POV against Israel. I know it looks like "yet one more conspiracy theory" but in this case it is true.
I have listed inaccuracies in 1948 Arab–Israeli War talk page(not full yet), and Plan Dalet talk page, not necessarily Anti Israeli inaccuracies. But there is no way to objectively assess them and insert to the article.
It might seem crazy, but I propose to nominate someone to check the systematic anti Israeli bias in those articles. If there will be other consequences, I agree to be banned indefinitely from Wikipedia ( and this is a big sacrifice for me). Ykantor (talk) 07:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sepsis
I found this edit to be most amusing. I've seen forum shopping but going to the village pump? What's next, article creation - "Pluto is a big jerk"?
This account has a few similarities to NoCal, if the account is not indef blocked for being extremely disruptive and for his conduct towards Pluto then an SPI would be appropriate. Sepsis II (talk) 15:28, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
This is getting absurd. Ykantor opened up a similar WP:AE about the same user on the 8 November, it was closed on Nov. 12, with "It is fairly clear that there is no proven reason, nor consensus, to take any action here." Four days later, and Ykantor opens a new WP:AE, providing exactly -one- new "offending" diff from Pluto after the last AE closed. I´m tearing my hairs out in frustration here: can someone please block/stop Ykantor from waisting everybodys time? Huldra (talk) 18:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC) (Ps: I do not think Ykantor is Nocal, but i have a strong suspicion that he gets "info" (emails?) from Nocal, and some of Ykantors actions here are based on that "info". )
Statement by Nishidani
Ykantor. A simple question, which I think bears on the dozen on recourses to various forums in your conflict with editors and particularly Pluto. In geopolitical conflicts where two nationalisms clash, do both sides have a legitimate POV, or is there a higher truth which vindicates the narrative of one side to that conflict? I think this is the key issue at stake here, and would appreciate your explaining precisely your view on it.Nishidani (talk) 18:12, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- There is one truth only, and it does not prefer any of the sides. However sometimes it is rather difficult to find the truth. But in our case, a lot of archives has been opened (though we still need the Arab states archives) so our understanding of most of the 1948 war events , should converge to the truth. e.g. Was there a massacre in Tantura? Was "Plan D" purpose to expel all of the Arab Palestinians? Did the Hayfa Jewish mayor asked the Arab residents not to leave? Was there a massacre in Deir Yassin? Did the Israeli army expelled the residents of Arab villages X, Y, and Z ? . There is only one answer to those questions and we know it.
- The main problem here is not whether there are 2 parallel narratives or one truth only. The problem is that some people like the truth selectively only. e.g. Was the Army of Liberation emblem — a dagger thrust into a David's Shield? ? An editor who rejects it, does know the correct reply but has other reasons to avoid it. Ykantor (talk) 20:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- I hope admins will allow me some indulgent leeway for a moment to try to settle this by a brief exchange. It may help relieve AE of the burden of repeatedly dealing with the same conflict (if this is an abuse, by all means delete it).
- The Israel archives were opened, the Arab archives were not. Logically this means we have a source imbalance, that does not allow a 'convergence' towards the truth ('converge' means two distinct lines coalescing. Here you admit there is only one, and thus your thought, thus formulated, is self-contradictory). Take one example.
- 'There is only one answer to the following questions and we know it.'+'was there a massacre at Tantura?'
- The Israeli Benny Morris thinks not, but contradicts himself (2004:299-301); the Arabist Henry Laurens seems inclined to think there was (vol.3 (2007):107). They differ on the value of archival vs.oral evidence.
- Therefore, we don't know, and perhaps cannot know. We have sources that differ. Two authorities admit the question is controversial, and diagree as to weight, The truth is unknown.
- The same could be shown for all of your examples. What we do know is (a) there are two parallel narrative lines which (b) are related differently often by various members of the scholarly community and thus (c) conscientious editors must take all accounts into consideration, weigh them for facts and interpretative biases in order to write the article, which we are obliged to ensure that it is neutral to both perspectives. Read Hayden White's Metahistory and you might realize the problem with approaching the past as you do. Historians write and rewrite history precisely because the interpretations of the known facts are fluid. Pluto is aware of these problems: you, apparently, are not.
- Unlike others, I believe you are in good faith, but cannot see what is obvious to many other editors, i.e., history is very, very complex. We must be faithful to sources (which are often riven by contradictions), whatever the truth, which it is not our remit to establish.Nishidani (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Blah blah Nishidani. Figures one would find you here shilling for one of your brothers-in-arms. You're part of the clique. I know you're supposed to protect your allies and all, but you are protecting totally biased editing in a way that damages your own credibility. Please stop trying to discredity Ykantor just because he finds himself on the other side of a disagreement with you.174.44.174.192 (talk) 08:30, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- If you want to see how a putatively 'pro-Arab clique' works, note the following responses to Ykantor's scare quotefarm by Pluto, by myself and then by Zero. Pluto argued one illustraive quote was enough and that we need contextualisation of Arab rhetoric by secondary source comments; I had no objection to the quotes, but agreed that contextualization was required. Zero then woke us up by showing that one key scare quote used by Ykantor had been thoroughly distorted. Many can't see those differences, perhaps because they come to wikipedia with the idea that there is only one POV, it is right, and when trouble arises, all must charge in as a support team. In short, you are 'projecting'.Nishidani (talk) 12:52, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- As a decent editor I expect you to refer to :"The problem is that some people like the truth selectively only. e.g. Was the Army of Liberation emblem — a dagger thrust into a David's Shield? ? An editor who rejects it, does know the correct reply but has other reasons to avoid it". Ykantor (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- That would lead to a Shandyean digression, which would test our admins' sorely tried patience. My point was philosophical (important because so many here assert that what I or a few others see as a method of composition is widely and wildly interpreted as a vociferous animadversion to a state). You gave Tantura as an example of the 'truth' being known. I edit believing we don't know, for many crucial things, the truth. We just have to consider there are two sides to most historical accounts and dozens of books arguing about them. It is extremely difficult to get the right balance. If you think the truth is in one or two books, or quotations, then we are at an impasse.Nishidani (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Ykantor : the emblem of the ALA *was not* this dagger stabbing a Magen star. Everybody with a minimum experience can guess this. Anyway, given I could not prove this, I didn't remove the so-called emblem from the article and didn't launch WP:DRN or WP:A/R. This "emblem" is another reason why you should be banned from this topic area. You jump on that quote from Morris and build a world out of it. But you will never try to see where it comes from or how deep the reliability of this information is true. That's good for your cause, so we have to keep this. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Pluto with his special anti logic: He is sure that "The emblem of the ALA *was not* this dagger stabbing a Magen star", although Pluto admits he has no support for his view, while he was presented with plenty of supports for the opposite view e.g. The emblem of the ALA *WAS* a dagger stabbing a "Magen David" star Ykantor (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- The content is not the matter of this WP:A/E. Anyway :
- Totally uninvolved editors from the Graphic Lab concluded that the picture of vehicles showing this "emblem" were doctored. [37]
- The original source for the information of the "ALA emblem" is one testimony from a Jewish fighter who describes these vehicles. This testimony is then reported by Benny Morris, Gilbert Martin (and other books in Hebrew with no credit.) There is not other piece of evidence (flags, other testimonies, ...) that this was the emblem.
- Doubts are serious enough not to have this picture used in the article : Arab Liberation Army. But (unfortunately) it is currently there and unless my point would get support, it will remain. I didn't launch 6-7 WP:DRN's and 2 WP:A/E to get the point and I didn't attack you on Village pump either. What you do is WP:POINT and does not comply with 4st wikipedia pillar.
- More the issue is also :
- your obsession to give undue weight, any time you can, without any "critical mind", to information that could pictures Arabs were antisemites, ready to perform an holocaust and reluctant to any compromise, ... You just "play" with the limitations of WP:V not to respect WP:NPoV. Thos for WP:BATTLEGROUND.
- Your goal is not to write an encyclopaedia based on the principles put forward by its founders. Your goal as you stated yourself is to prove that wikipedia is biased and that Arabs in '48 were antisemite, stronger, ...
- Another proof of this behaviour is what currently happens on the article about the '48 Arab Israeli War where you just add tags in the article that you justify in putting a justification in the talk page but you don't discuss any of these and don't even correct yourself when you are proved to be wrong. Pluto2012 (talk) 04:10, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- The content is not the matter of this WP:A/E. Anyway :
- Pluto with his special anti logic: He is sure that "The emblem of the ALA *was not* this dagger stabbing a Magen star", although Pluto admits he has no support for his view, while he was presented with plenty of supports for the opposite view e.g. The emblem of the ALA *WAS* a dagger stabbing a "Magen David" star Ykantor (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Ykantor : the emblem of the ALA *was not* this dagger stabbing a Magen star. Everybody with a minimum experience can guess this. Anyway, given I could not prove this, I didn't remove the so-called emblem from the article and didn't launch WP:DRN or WP:A/R. This "emblem" is another reason why you should be banned from this topic area. You jump on that quote from Morris and build a world out of it. But you will never try to see where it comes from or how deep the reliability of this information is true. That's good for your cause, so we have to keep this. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- That would lead to a Shandyean digression, which would test our admins' sorely tried patience. My point was philosophical (important because so many here assert that what I or a few others see as a method of composition is widely and wildly interpreted as a vociferous animadversion to a state). You gave Tantura as an example of the 'truth' being known. I edit believing we don't know, for many crucial things, the truth. We just have to consider there are two sides to most historical accounts and dozens of books arguing about them. It is extremely difficult to get the right balance. If you think the truth is in one or two books, or quotations, then we are at an impasse.Nishidani (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- As a decent editor I expect you to refer to :"The problem is that some people like the truth selectively only. e.g. Was the Army of Liberation emblem — a dagger thrust into a David's Shield? ? An editor who rejects it, does know the correct reply but has other reasons to avoid it". Ykantor (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston
User:Ykantor has been involved in a number of article disputes since May 2013. The articles I have noticed are:
From June through September he was at the WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard *six times* about these articles (search results here). Commonly he listed the other parties in the dispute as User:Pluto2012, User:Nishidani and sometimes User:Dailycare. So far as I can tell, none of these filings was ever closed with a verdict in his favor. (Some expired with no action). Repeated filings against the same editors regarding the same articles (with no favorable results) looks like a refusal to drop the WP:STICK. Ykantor has now complained again at WP:AE against Pluto2012 while his previous report is still on the board. I propose that Ykantor offer a plan for how he can behave differently in the future. If he has no plausible suggestion to make, I recommend that he be banned for six months from ARBPIA. Ykantor's us versus them attitude on Arab-Israeli disputes raises questions about his ability to edit neutrally. ("I realized that a lot of my well supported editing is deleted by pro Arab users"). He seems to be acting as a partisan for one of the contending parties. EdJohnston (talk) 00:34, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by an IP
Pluto is a dedicated POV pusher and nearly all of those pushing for him to be restricted are devoted POV pushers for the Palestinian side. I have listed these members before, namely Nableezy, Nishidani, Sean.Hoyland, Zero0000, Sepsis, and others. There needs to be some quid pro quo because these editors consistently prevent any attempt to give any kind of NPOV description of the issues (or even attempts to make note that there is a POV problem in an article). See the talk page for Judaization of Jerusalem. I hope that some administrators will take a fair look at this clique and its actions in favor of pushing a pro-Palestinian anti-Israel POV. They are organized and diligent, but they have no interest in an NPOV and have every interest in pushing the "Palestinian Narrative". 174.44.174.192 (talk) 05:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- @EdJohnston: More from the echo chamber. Yawn. The discourse in the I-P debate has become so lopsided that the 'evidence' (consisting of the opinions of the Anti-Israel clique) drowns out the defense of any kind of balance. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 08:37, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Pluto: Au contraire, Pluto, you have done nothing but add POV sludge as far as I have been able to find. You've been instrumental in trying to shut down talkpage debate. It's fun to watch you try to act like the victim when you sit and antagonize those of us who even try to debate content on talk pages. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 08:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by ZScarpia
Could 174.44.174.192 be told that calling other editors faggots, even in edit comments, isn't the done thing, please? ← ZScarpia 14:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Pluto2012
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
[Announcement] Discretionary sanctions review – draft 2
The Arbitration Committee is reviewing its discretionary sanctions system. Many administrators active on this noticeboard participated in a recent consultation for this review. The committee has taken into account all comments made in that consultation, and a second draft has now been published at WP:AC/DSR#Draft v2. Please review the new draft, and feel free to comment at WT:AC/DSR#Draft v2. For the Arbitration Committee, AGK [•] 23:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Doncram
Withdrawn by the submitter Nyttend. EdJohnston (talk) 14:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Doncram
No warning given, but I don't believe that one is needed here, as this case centered around Doncram's actions; it's not like WP:ARBPIA, which is relevant even to people who haven't heard of it before.
These additional comments I've added after filing the complaint. After I notified Doncram, I found that Seraphimblade had left Doncram a warning about the edits in question. Is it okay if I withdraw this request, since the issue's already been handled? Nyttend (talk) 03:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DoncramStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DoncramStatement by (username)Result concerning DoncramThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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DXRD
DXRD is indefinitely topic-banned from the topic of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Sandstein 12:33, 19 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DXRD
DXRD is not a new editor; started 2006. Reminds me of someone, but I'm useless at sock detection. Talk page shows multiple prior complaints for editing misbehavior and personal attacks. In this instance is pushing rubbish into the sensitive article Palestinian people. The idea is that there are no Palestinians, but only interlopers from other places, since some of them have family names that indicate distant origin. It is a standard bleat of the most brainless branch of the anti-Arab right-wing.
Discussion concerning DXRDStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DXRDStatement by Malik Shabazz
Statement by AsceticRoseIt seems that DXRD has little concern about Wikipedia policies, and there is no indication that he is going to care about them. User:Zero0000 is probably right in smelling a rat here. DXRD's physical behavior is typical that of a sock, although it is a matter of investigation. He frequently calls others racist, and accuses them of anti-semitism in talks and edit-summaries. Just one example: He is a racist. If you don't care that's Wikipedia's problem, afterwards don't look someone to blame when Wikipedia will be criticised for racism/anti-semitism, you could have stopped it. You still can, if you'll block users of this kind.--DXRD (talk) 12:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC). His talk-page shows his other misbehavior and proof of disruptive editings. He has his own POV which seems to be very strong. So an indefinite ARBPIA topic ban can be appropriate. --AsceticRosé 04:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning DXRDThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
@Sandstein: Your block seems appropriate, since without it the reverts would have continued endlessly. In his recent edits DXRD seems to be going out of his way to show how much trouble he can be ("we can play this cat-dog game till you'll give up"). I'd support an indefinite ARBPIA topic ban. If he changes his mind in the future he can ask for it to be lifted. EdJohnston (talk) 22:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
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Alfonzo Green
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Alfonzo Green
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
This request is being brought because the editor in question is belaboring discussion of Rupert Sheldrake in order to push undue claims for Sheldrake's eccentric ideas. Back in October AG attempted to insert a claim that tests had given some measure of verification for Sheldrake's theories, which insertion was repeated several times in the face of opposition from other editors:
I think there are a couple of others, but at any rate he ceased editing the article and turned to shopping the discussion around. In particular there was this long NPOV thread in which there was a fairly strong consensus against him. He has also participated in this BLP thread which similarly had not gone in his favor.
- AG's response to this is to describe this request as "a putsch against editors who do not share their anti-Sheldrake bias" [39].
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 17 Nov by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) of risk of sanction
- Warned on 18 Nov by Mangoe (talk · contribs) of AN/I discussion
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Sheldrake's article has been the focus of a lot of fringe promotion, and the burden of policing it is becoming excessive. We are being talked to death in an effort to postpone rejection of this material. I think AG is able to contribute elsewhere, so I think a topic ban would be a sufficient response.
- Reply to Sandstein: This isn't about specific offensive diffs, but about a pattern of belaboring the topic endlessly. I'm not willing to subject myself to the torture of having to pick out every edit he made to the talk page and the referenced discussion just to satisfy some bureaucratic obligation. Mangoe (talk) 16:13, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Alfonzo Green
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Alfonzo Green
Statement by (username)
Statement by vzaak
Some background for the uninitiated: since October, off-site canvassing (see here and here) has produced an influx of Sheldrake supporters.
AG was involved in another warring incident in which he made edits that misrepresented Richard Wiseman. The already-mentioned NPOV/N complaint is related to this same issue. Since few are expected to read that long thread, I'll rephrase my final comment from there:
AG's complaint contradicts bare facts in the interview and in the response paper. It was pointed out to AG that Wiseman says that he and Sheldrake were "addressing two different questions" and "testing two different claims".[41] AG responded by saying that "Wiseman appears to be trying to fudge the issue with his statement that he and Sheldrake were testing different claims".[42] AG was also directed to the response paper which is at odds with AG's conclusions.[43] AG replied saying that Wiseman was disingenuous in the paper.[44] With regard to both the interview and in the paper, AG dismisses statements which run counter to his narrative by claiming that Wiseman is not being truthful.
The website AG is using as a source promotes the Wiseman-is-dishonest narrative. The site also promotes energy healing, talking with spirits, alien contact, Sheldrake himself, and related topics. In the above diffs I explained to AG that the site is not a reliable source anyway, which is another reason his edits can't go into the article, but this point also failed to convince AG. vzaak (talk) 05:37, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm in fair agreement with Vzaak (talk · contribs). There are two points to consider:
- There is a general problem with pro-Sheldrake editors.
- There is a particular problem with Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs).
Let's look at these in more detail:
- The general problem of Sheldrake's fans arriving at the page, seeing its fair portrayal of the sources, and complaining about a character assassination.
- (what they should be doing is providing positive sources, but I'm generally at a loss to find these)
- These fans tend to be self-selecting for a low level of understanding of science (including the sociology and history of science), those more knowledgeable can tell it's nonsense.
- This brings into play WP:COMPETENCE, as well as the usual WP:RGW, etc.
- It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the talk page because any discussion is hijacked, and it is impossible to reach consensus with those who cannot think logically and with any understanding.
- I think that Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs) is the tip of the iceberg and that others will have to follow.
Specific issues with Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs) is that:
- Since October 2013 he's been a WP:SPA on the Sheldrake article.
- Previously, he's shown some interest in other Fringe issues such as Michael Shermer, Wolpert-Sheldrake wager (when that was an article)
- Trying to include material in the article that is generally (1) poorly sourced to "fringe" sources, and/or (2) creatively interpreted, in particular to misrepresent the views of Prof. Richard Wiseman, who as a living person shouldn't have his views misrepresented.
- This edit is particularly enlightening. Not only does Alfonzo claim that MR is testable (or falsifiable (they're related) - when pretty much all of our sources say it isn't either), he then tries to claim that the sources don't make quite specific criticisms as to why MR is pseudoscience. There is little you can actually do with an editor who refuses to recognise what the sources plainly say. This is either because he is not capable of understanding, or he is deliberately not understanding to try to play politics, but either demonstrates a lack of basic WP:COMPETENCE.
I think that the best thing for Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs) is that he is placed on a sanction preventing him from editing fringe articles, broadly construed, including talk pages. Violations of this should result in enforcement. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by iantresman
Some of the diffs provided seem to contradict, or differ from the allegations being made. For example, the one on 15 Oct seems to accurately note that joint tests with Prof. Rose were made (presumably because he felt they were testable); Rose said the data showed no evidence of morphic resonance, and Sheldrake disagreed. Clearly Alfonzo Green is not pushing one side or the other, and nor does he give Sheldrake undue veracity or credibility.
Discussion about Rupert Sheldrake is prolonged. That is not the fault of any one editor, so it seems unfair to pick on Alfonzo Green because other editors disagree with him. Alfonzo Green also appears to have been target in this WP:AE case and he is currently involved in discussions with many editors in this NPOV case. He appears to be polite and assuming good faith, which is more than I can say for some of his critics, whose language appears to be quite emotive (see above for many examples), and whose accusation could just as easily be applied to themselves. --Iantresman (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by George Ho
- Rupert Sheldrake (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I am an uninvolved editor, and I see nothing more than a content dispute regarding this topic. The fault neither lies on one editor or another. However, addition protection on this article should be encouraged. If "full protection" is too much, what are methods to resolve this issue besides this Arb case? The same content (not by reported editor) was added twice(?): [45][46]. Another content was disputed: [47][48]. And another content: [49][50]. As for the main subject of the enforcement case, he edited just one article this year. How is this case helping the cause? I can see that it would do very little or no effect to warring issue on the page that he worked on. Per WP:Protection policy, level-two "pending changes" is discouraged, especially by RFC 2012. However, if the warring doesn't stop soon, I would hope someone here can ignore consensus and then quickly enable PC2, like Bigg Boss 7. --George Ho (talk) 07:30, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Alfonzo Green
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
The diffs being reported are of 15 October. They are not actionable any more and predate the warnings. What if any are the current edits that are of concern? Sandstein 12:31, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- Mangoe: Action can only be taken here if there are recent violations of Wikipedia conduct rules after the required warnings. If you can't or won't indicate such violations, we'll have to close this without action. Sandstein 19:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- You have to post as many explained and dated post-warning diffs as it takes to convince me, or other admins, that there is an actionable violation of a specific Wikipedia conduct policy or guideline. Sandstein 19:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Yozer1
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Yozer1
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Yozer1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Most of these edits are pretty self-explanatory
- in Ottoman Empire article
- Oct. 29 removed "massacre" from the paragraph about the Armenian Genocide; edit summary: "Removed reference to massacres by government as this is false"
- Oct. 29 changed "Genocidal acts were also committed against the Greek and Assyrian minorities" to "Many Greek and Assyrian minorities were also killed during internal conflicts in the hinterland" and removed the citations; edit summary: "Corrected historic events"
- Oct. 29 added "eventhough Abdulhamid II was not involved in such events" to the sentence about the Hamidian massacres when it is widely accepted that the Ottoman government organized the massacres
- in Hasan Cemal article
- Nov. 1 he added "His human rights record is unapologetic..."; edit summary: "Added unapologetic human rights violation". The source does not state in any way that his human rights record is "unapologetic". This is a major WP:BLP violation and clear WP:OR. He edit warred over this for a couple of days and threatened User:Proudbolsahye with an administrator intervention "for deleting of sourced material"
- in Erzurum article
- Nov. 18 without adding any sources he changed "they began calling it "Artsn Rum" (Arzan ar-Rum, meaning Arzan of the Romans) in order to distinguish their former residence from their new one" to "they began calling it "Artsn Rum" (Arzan ar-Rum or Ard ar-Rum, meaning Land of the Romans in Arabic) in order to distinguish their former residence from their new one". FYI, there is a lengthy discussion over this issue and during the period of two days he made 4 reverts and refused to discuss anything. When I asked him to provide sources he responded in the edit summary: "The sources are easy to provide". And when after several reverts User:HelenOnline opened a section about his problematic edits, Yozer1 blanked it 4 times in a course of 24 minutes: [51] [52] [53] [54] He was then blocked for 24 hours for edit warring
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This user does not seem to care about the basic rules of Wikipedia as demonstrated in his comments, such as "The sources are easy to provide". In response to HelenOnline's comment to read WP:BRD and User:Toddst1 "strong recommendation" to follow her advice, Yozer1 replied "I am entitled to my point of view, supported by evidence, as you are to yours"). As we can see, he prefers to edit war instead of being involved in talk page discussions. He showed a highly disruptive behavior by deleting other users' comments (like my question on User:Sandstein's talk page ([55] [56] [57]) and HelenOnline's comments on the talk page of Erzurum (see above).
I suggest a topic ban from everything related to Armenia and Turkey.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Yozer1
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Yozer1
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Yozer1
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.