HouseOfArtaxiad
Six-month topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning HouseOfArtaxiad
Concerning the article of Shusha, HouseOfArtaxiad was warned against edit-warring already on 25 September, but neverthless proceeded further. His editing became a concern once more on 4 November and then again the next day. Now he contributed to a suspicious activity in the Shusha article once more, ignoring the ongoing discussion at the article's talkpage and twice reverting the addition that doesn't suit him. I think a block would be warranted now.
Discussion concerning HouseOfArtaxiadStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by HouseOfArtaxiadThe talk page consensus was that Shushi was founded in 1428 by Armenians. Wiritng it was founded in 1752 by Persians contridicts the entire article, Brand needs to accept that. HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC) If anyone needs to be put under sanctions, it is Grand and Brand for their ill faith edits and obvious attempts to remove the Armenian history from the Shushi article. Grand in particular needs to be blocked for his obsession with creating a personal conflict with me for every edit I make, which violates WP:BATTLEGROUND. --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC) User:EdJohnston Why does no one else get banned? And why should I get banned for that matter? You're outlook is "He didn't revert 3 times, but oh well. I've tried taking this to the talk and reporting it before anyone else. Fatbob didn't listen and the Admins didn't care. Why should I be punished for everyone else's mistakes? --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by GrandmasterThere's a parallel discussion about the conduct of this user at WP:AN: [2] Grandmaster 21:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Also, I think the fact that HouseOfArtaxiad claims a consensus at talk when there's clearly none shows that HouseOfArtaxiad does not understand what WP:Consensus means. Grandmaster 21:44, 8 November 2013 (UTC) And I find the rvs cited in this report to be quite disruptive, because HouseOfArtaxiad removed a reference to a source for no apparent reason, and tried to assert as a fact only one of the versions of the foundation of the town (and not the generally accepted one), suppressing the other, in contradiction to WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and a bunch of other rules. Such behavior demonstrates a failure on part of HouseOfArtaxiad to understand the core WP rules, and despite the previous warnings by admins and an ongoing discussion at WP:AN, he continues to make questionable reverts at an arbitration covered article. Grandmaster 21:57, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by HablabarIt came to my attention that Brandmeister who filed this report was actually sanctioned for edit warring in the same Shusha article where he would be banned from Arm-Az area for two years [3]. His ban was shortened to half a year, and ended in August 2013. I find his report not only disingenuous but also an alternative way to attack his opponent(s) once the article was locked and out of reach for Brand, instead of engaging in consensus-building. Therefore, I recommend to view this reporting as filed with Unclean hands in light of Brand's own most recent and historical misconduct on the Shusha page. Hablabar (talk) 04:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnstonHouseOfArtaxiad has now edit warred at two articles: List of massacres in Turkey and Nazim Bey. Look at the massacres article first because it's easier to check, even though HOA only reverted twice there:
One of the massacres that he removes is called 'Massacres in the Çoruh River valley', which has an academic source in a book by Robert Gewarth et al. published by Oxford University Press, “War in peace: Paramilitary violence in Europe after the Great War”. This was a massacre where Armenians are said to have participated. Another is Yıldız assassination attempt, which describes an attack carried out by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. It's reasonable to have low tolerance for edit warring on obvious ethnic hot-button articles like this one. The other article where HOA engaged in warring is Nazim Bey.
I didn't look into the claims of edit warring at Shusha, a dispute which has now led to full protection of the article by User:Ymblanter. My recommendation for a sanction is given in the admin section below. EdJohnston (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC) Result concerning HouseOfArtaxiadThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The complaint doesn't make clear how these two reverts violate any conduct rule. Two reverts don't constitute edit-warring yet. As submitted, I'd close this as not actionable. In situations like this, tendentious editing is frequently a problem, but it would need a much more thorough evidence submission to establish that. On the other hand, HouseOfArtaxiad, this forum does not resolve content disputes, and therefore making any argument here based on what you think an article should contain is quite beside the point. Sandstein 20:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC) On a purely procedural note, no warning to HouseOfArtaxiad has been logged at WP:ARBAA2.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Based on the summary of his edit warring that I gave above, I recommend a six-month topic ban of User:HouseOfArtaxiad from AA2. I don't perceive that HOA recognizes the slightest problem with his edits. We do tolerate people coming to Wikipedia with a personal POV but we don't like to see it manifested in articles. EdJohnston (talk) 20:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
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Pluto2012
It is fairly clear that there is no proven reason, nor consensus, to take any action here. Black Kite (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Pluto2012
Pluto2012 is cleverly deleting text on the verge of wp:disrupt. Each of his deletion might be considered as a "Petit Crime" only, but the accumulative effect is described as: "Their edits occur over a long period of time; in this case, no single edit may be clearly disruptive, but the overall pattern is disruptive.". His Article contribution seems to have more red color that the black one. i.e more deletion than adding text. During the last months he deleted a lot (perhaps most) of my writing. He follows me and delete my text in articles and subject he has never visited before. The result is that I am busy looking for solution rather than adding content. I know the risk of wp:boomerang (I have received it unexpectedly at the help desk and at wp:drn) , but I hardly have something to lose, since I nearly can't contribute here anyway. notes:
Discussion concerning Pluto2012Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Pluto2012Disputes with numerous contributorsWe are many editors who are tired by Ykantor. You can read here some testimonies about his behaviour. He is not here to contribute to the project of writing a free encyclopaedia complying with WP:V and WP:NPoV. He is here to "correct" the anti-Israeli pov-pushing in the encyclopaedia. His attack here above against user:Zero0000 is another illustration of his behaviour (to be compared with what he wrote to him to get his mind : 1, 2 or 3. I don't feel like losing any more time with him. Pluto2012 (talk) 21:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
FrustrationI didn't defend myself but I want to say something about this : "[When Pluto edits] articles he never previously touched, and deletes my well supported sentence. He really works hard.[2nd degree]"...
Going on with the problematic attitude despite a WP:DRN and this WP:A/EYkantor is now engaged in provocation. There are already quotes in this article. It is obvious that adding all these, the way he did, with bullet points, is not acceptable and is a provocation given he was already told these quotes were contentious. I also point out that I am the main contributor of this very difficult article and that I transformed it from a "list of massacres" where "editors" fought to add one or remove another to an article gathering most of the scientifical material concerning the massacres and their impact in the '48 war... And since, it has been quiet. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Quotes in citationsThe edit here above dating from yesterday is even more problematic given that :
Ykantor refuses to collaborate and performs WP:FORUMSHOPPING until he gets the answers he needs in order to justify his behaviour. Pluto2012 (talk) 09:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000Ykantor the complainant predicts that I will write "Pluto is excellent While I am horrible". Well, I don't know about horrible; there are worse editors around than Ykantor. Stubborn, opinionated, persistent, energetic and single-minded, but not horrible. Pluto deserves a medal for trying to moderate Ykantor's enthusiasm for rewriting large parts of Wikipedia to conform to a particular national narrative. I honestly don't know how Pluto finds the patience. Zerotalk 06:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I still won't give you "horrible", but I did forget "obsessive". Sometimes, like in your "any form of partition" obsession, I can hardly believe you are serious. You wasted so much of everyone's time on that tiny point, going on and on and on about it. Zerotalk 12:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
Statement by ykantorto Sandstein: I will appreciate it if you re consider the decision to close it without action. Concerning the routine deletion of quotes, I was told in the help desk: "...because the article is under discretionary sanctions. You may mention that status on the article talk page if the other editor continues deleting your quotes". In my opinion, the deletion of quotes (or / and the supported text), is against wp:preserve and is violating the "the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". Ykantor (talk) 13:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC) Ykantor (talk) 07:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by KeithbobFYI.... there are two ongoing discussions at WP:DRN that involve User:Ykantor and User:Pluto2012 (and others). These threads contain allegations of misconduct by various parties despite reminders that DRN is a content only forum. If anyone feels the DRN discussions might be relevant to this proceeding they may view them here. [5] [6] -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Pluto2012This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. This complaint is just a long list of edits with which the complainant disagrees. That is what we call a content dispute, and it is outside the scope of arbitration enforcement. Discretionary sanctions are authorized for editors violating "the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process"; nothing like that is alleged in the complaint. I'd close this without action and advise the complainant to follow normal dispute resolution procedures. Sandstein 20:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC) I see no basis for sanctions against Pluto (I didn't go back any further than the October diffs). If anything, I see disruptive editing by Ykantor, e.g., this biased and extroardinary edit already cited above by Pluto.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC) |
TopGun
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning TopGun
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Darkness Shines (talk) 12:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TopGun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIP
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 6 November 2013 This edit violates principle 3 "3) The use of Wikipedia for political propaganda is prohibited." We have academic sources which say the mission failed, TG has edit warred primary sources into the article to say it was a success.
- 12 November 2013 He restored this 5 times, three of those after he was informed in was a violation of BLPPRIMARY, and in my removal of the content involved I [7] explained in was a BLPPRIMARY issue. this violates principle 5 "Users who engage in disruptive editing may be banned from the site."
- 6 November 2013 Accusations of hounding, this violates principle 1 "Wikipedia:Assume good faith contemplates the extension of courtesy and good will to other editors on the assumption that they, like you, are here to build an information resource with a neutral point of view based on reliable, verifiable sources." I got to that article as I was at that time heavily editing the 1971 Bangladesh genocide article, and this came up in one of the sources I used. So I did this edit. Then read the article and found the BLPPRIMARY violation.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on TG was a part of the arbitration request which brought about the DS, [8] He is well aware that there are discretionary sanctions enforced in the topic area.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Removing BLP violations are an exemption under 3RR, and as TG was part of the arbitration which resulted in DS he is not in need of a formal warning. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: I disagree, as we are not meant to use primary sources for statements of fact from living people, I explained this in both edit summaries and on the article talk page. As is obvious from the diffs I presented, and even if you feel it is not a BLP issue, I acted in good faith as I believe it is a violation of BLPPRIMARY. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Further to the need for a warning, I do not care what WP:AC/DS#Warnings says, you tried the same line with the AE request on Neo. You were wrong then and you are wrong now, how can you think a person who was a part of the arbitration to not know of the DS? That is just bureaucracy for the sake of it. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Further to the BLP issues, I was also reverting out the use of a blog which was being used to support a statement from a BLP, this is a violation of SPS and BLP, and again do I really need to point out that reverting under those circumstances is an exemption? I explained on the talk page of the article that I believed the sources as they were being used violated BLP and BLPPRIMARY, I edited in good faith, from now on I will just leave suspect BLP vios in an article. I will obviously be fileing an appeal as soon as any tban hits me, sanctionign an editor for acting in good faith is bollocks. I will not be online again for a good few hours. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
@Seraphimblade: Given this is the first dispute between myself and TG in over a year, using such old actions to impose sanctions is hardly on. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning TopGun
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by TopGun
- I don't think Darkness Shines has been able to convince any of the three editors discussing on talkpage about this which makes this a content dispute. There has been no violation of any content policy. I also explained my edits to which DS, instead of replying, started an editwar with multiple editors. This slow editwar has been an attempt to wikilawyer around 3RR and I count 7 reverts on the article by DS and I was not the only one who reverted him. Also the sources I used included a book by one of the commanders participating in the mission which is published material making it RS, it has reports of multiple sources confirming the statements and more than one citations back it up.
- DS has also not even attempted to resolve this issue by any single method prior to this other than editwaring content out. Which makes it pretty clear that Arbitration on this is a waste of time taking a single edit to discuss for days without any attempts to discuss when clearly DS failed to get any consensus on talk page.
- The hounding accusations stand as DS was put on an interaction ban with me which was later removed after a lot of wikilawyering going on over the ban. I totally stayed away from DS for a few months until he has followed me to yet another article he has never edited before, specifically removing content that I added or edited before. I have no other conclusion to make when there are numerous other articles to edit.
- I also don't have much time to spend on DS and his disputes. He can go and discuss it on talk page but I will not participate in any wikidrama that follows. I'll keep my response minimal here and hopefully arbitrators don't have the time to jump into a content dispute to support an editwaring editor which didn't go to any resolution method and barely even a talkpage discussion other than repeating a claim of primary source. I suppose this should WP:BOOMERANG,
--lTopGunl (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I will like to reiterate that I am not the only editor who is reverting DS here (which tells of the consensus). And I don't see why I should be sanctioned when an editor follows me to a new article and then starts reverting in a new version without completing any kind of dispute resolution and then goes on with AE... talking of quick escalation. I have nearly a year, and counting, of edit history to prove that I have stayed away from DS mostly. Also view the admin comment on talk page where DS attempted to get the edit protected version reverted. --lTopGunl (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2013 (UTC) Moved to user's comment section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Faizan
I agree with TopGun. The user Darkness Shines is moving just without consensus. He has not given time to the article's talk page. The dispute ought to be solved by mutual harmonious discussion. Darkness Shines is edit-warring, this needs to be stopped. I don't see any violation of the Wikipedia's rules by TopGun. The other user ought to discuss the sources which he regards as "BLP Primary". Faizan 15:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sitush
@Sandstein. I've not looked at the latest spat being reported here but it does seem overly bureaucratic to suggest that, because of a technicality, one is warned and one has a temporary ban when it is indeed the case that TopGun is familiar with the sanctions that are in force and is not an occasional contributor to the topic area that is subject to the sanctions. Indeed, TopGun has been regularly involved in the fracas and is not unfamiliar with ANI, eg: see this. I wouldn't expect someone to formally warn me of the sanctions in this area, given my past involvement, and I don't really see why TopGun should be any different: they know what they are doing, just as I do. - Sitush (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- If Sandstein's "construe narrowly" interpretation is to prevail then would it be considered point-y if someone were to now formally warn TopGun of the sanctions? That could be done most simply by saying so at the time that this request is closed. I'm still picking myself up off the floor at the revelation that they've never been warned (or, at least, any such warning has not been logged). They're very frequently involved in disputes where the type of behaviour raised here comes into question, although I acknowledge that somehow they have not been blocked for quite a while. Their problem seems to be that whilst DS tends to get heated across a wide range of India/Pakistan related subjects (accused of bias by all sides, etc), TopGun's heatedness seems to be from a fairly consistent nationalist POV. And it is nationalist POV issues that gave rise to the creation of the sanctions in the first place. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by RegentsPark
Looking (cursorily) at the request, I think that DS's report was unnecessary and the dispute doesn't really rise to the level necessitating sanctions and, perhaps, all that is required is that DS and TG be told that they need to seek mediation or some sort of dispute resolution. Particularly since the underlying issue seems unclear (for example, the info box and the article are inconsistent). An uneven sanction is likely to be unproductive since the underlying dispute is likely to go unresolved, an outcome that is not in Wikipedia's interests.--regentspark (comment) 18:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade. I think that's a tad draconian. Both editors, TopGun as well as DS, are valuable content contributors despite their negative interactions in the past. Neither have had any serious issues with each other for over an year. Topic banning them from the very areas where they are making valuable contributions is not a good outcome for the project. Once again, I suggest just telling them to head for some sort of DR or mediation rather than imposing sanctions, that's the better solution for Wikipedia. Just because we can impose bans, it doesn't follow that we have to do so. --regentspark (comment) 23:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Keysanger
User Darkness Shining has a perverse understanding of the Wikipedia rules. Here he recommends to a topic banned user to send intruccions per mail, because posting on his talk page would be break the ban: mailing it to me will not. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 10:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning TopGun
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
This topic area is subject to discretionary sanctions per WP:ARBIP#Standard discretionary sanctions. The main issue here seems to be an edit-war between Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) and TopGun (talk · contribs) about the article Operation Chengiz Khan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), concerning a 1971 military engagement between India and Pakistan. Both users have reverted each other multiple times until the article was protected from editing. It is pointless to determine who edit-warred more or who had consensus (if any) on their side; both have contributed to the disruption brought about by the edit war. In principle, this would lead to sanctions for both users. However, only Darkness Shines is listed at Wikipedia:ARBIP#List of editors placed on notice, while we have no diff of a warning to TopGun that meets the formal requirements of WP:AC/DS#Warnings, which forbids us to sanction them at this time. I would therefore ban Darkness Shines from the topic of the India-Pakistan conflict for a month, and warn TopGun. Sandstein 08:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- In response to Darkness Shines, it is not clear to me how exactly your reverts at [9] and similar were reverts of WP:BLP violations such that WP:3RRNO would exempt them from edit-warring. Also contrary to your assumption, the regulations at WP:AC/DS#Warnings make no exception for editors who were otherwise involved in a case previously. Sandstein 16:02, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am explicitly not commenting on the merits, as I have not examined the issue yet, but I just wanted to point out that, as a result of TopGun's participation in the thread where ArbCom authorised discretionary sanctions for this topic area, he can be considered constructively warned. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Salvio here. TopGun is clearly aware of the restrictions applicable to this area, and was at the time of the edit war. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I entirely agree that this makes more sense from a practical point of view, but considering the broad reach and sometimes contentiousness of discretionary sanctions, I personally prefer to construe the authorization providing for them narrowly, sticking to the (currently valid) rules as closely as possible until such time as the Arbitration Committee updates them (which we have been waiting for a long time now). And my reading of the current rules is that they mandate an explicit talk page warning under all circumstances because they provide for no other method of warning. I'll therefore not sanction TopGun, but another administrator may of course take another view and do so nonetheless. Sandstein 17:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am explicitly not commenting on the merits, as I have not examined the issue yet, but I just wanted to point out that, as a result of TopGun's participation in the thread where ArbCom authorised discretionary sanctions for this topic area, he can be considered constructively warned. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- These two have been at each other's throats for months, if not years, and TopGun can clearly be considered to be aware of the discretionary sanctions. Warnings are there to make sure that editors know they are expected to be on their best behaviour, not as an arbitrary box-ticking exercise, and certainly not to allow editors who are clearly aware of the sanctions to game the system. I propose a lengthy (or even indefinite) block or topic ban for both parties. This is one of those cases where beating around the bush will not bring about a desirable outcome—they have both had plenty of opportunities to modify their behaviour to conform with the standards of decorum expected of encyclopaedia editors (including multiple short-term blocks), and they have both persisted with their battleground mentality, at the very least contributing to the level of toxicity that exists in the topic area. If the consensus of uninvolved admins is that the lack of a formal "warning" precludes TG being sanctioned under the provisions of arbitration enforcement, then I would suggest that standard admin action should be considered. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, do you have some examples of Darkness Shines and TopGun doing this before? If that's happened, that should indeed factor into the severity of the sanctions. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Given the past behavior here, I'm inclined to consider HJ Mitchell's idea of removing both parties from the area with an indefinite topic ban. The behavior of both has been completely unacceptable, and I don't think that's going to change. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:13, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Gilabrand
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Gilabrand
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 31 Oct Three counts of removal of the word Palestine without any reason - "Palestinian historian Walid Khalidi" changed to "Arab historian Walid Khalidi". "It is during the rule of the Ottoman Empire over Palestine that the form Kafr ʿInān (Kafr 'Anan) first appears." becomes "The village began to be called Kafr ʿInān (Kafr 'Anan) during the rule of the Ottoman Empire." and "During the period of Roman and Byzantine rule in Palestine, it was a Jewish village..." becomes "During the Roman and Byzantine era, the Jewish village of..." I'd really like to hear why she made those three edits.
- 29 Oct Cuts out all criticism of the pro-Israeli MEMRI from its lead despite large portions of the MEMRI article focusing on criticism.
- 14 Nov Makes the Prime Minister of the State of Palestine into the Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority - a position that ceased to exist in January.
- 14 Nov Removes information of the depopulation of Arab villages.
- 11 Nov Article is about an Israeli settlement - edit removes statement of illegality of such settlements from the lead.
- 4 Nov An article about a man described by David Rieff as a "pro-Israel polemicist" becomes significantly more positive about the man.
- 6 Nov "The moshav was founded in 1949 by the HaBonim movement on land which belonged to the depopulated Arab village of Kafr Lam." becomes "The moshav was founded in 1949 by the HaBonim movement."
- 29 Oct Read the changes to the lead, effectively, Israeli occupied becomes disputed, international rejection of Israel's annexation is completely cut out, written as fact that the area is "a rear base for Palestinian attacks on [[Israel]"
- 7 Nov "Below is a list of Israeli museums. Some of them are located in the Israeli-occupied territories." Becomes "Below is a list of Israeli museums." Museums in the Occupied Palestinian territories such as Siebenberg House are on the list.
- 24 Sept (to show this behaviour is standard for Gilabrand, not new) Mohammad Bakri goes from being Palestinian to being an Israeli Arab, cuts out lots of info on the Jenin massacre, removes the fact that Jenin, Jenin's Executive Producer was murdered by Israelis shortly after making the film.
- 5 Nov Cuts out that the previous Palestinian residents had all fled their town due to an Israeli military attack.
- 31 Oct"During the 1948 Arab–Israeli war, Saliha was the site of a massacre carried out by Israeli forces shortly before the village was completely depopulated. The built structures in the village, with the exception of an elementary school for boys, were also destroyed." becomes "During the 1948 Arab–Israeli war, Saliha was depopulated and many buildings were destroyed, although the elementary school for boys remained standing." Read the well sourced Saliha article to read about the massacre that Gildabrand doesn't want people knowing about.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
He's been blocked twelve times before, I think he knows about the sanctions.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I had removed some obvious foruming by an IP, who has been warned for soapboxing at Talk:Eurabia and Talk:Anti-Zionism, when Gilabrand decided to restore the rant - [[10]]. I tried talking with Gilabrand on her talk page but she wouldn't listen. I then looked at her edits and saw that her primary goal on wikipedia, as seen by the above diffs, is to further the same POV the IP was soapboxing in favour of. It is not these particular edits for which I think Gildabrand needs to be removed from the topic area, but what these edits show; her steady pattern of pushing bias into wikipedia.
- Nice rant Izak, I especially enjoyed the person attacks, presenting Gildabrand as a victim, the mindboggling assertion that bringing this case here is a "violation of WP:NOTCENSORED", the statement that we need more "loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view", I'd love to "debate her point by point" as you suggest but I don't get paid to edit here; we block editors who vandalize wikipedia because it costs too much time to follow them, reverting their edits everyday. The same goes for editors who are here to push their bias into articles, it costs too much to keep an eye on them and revert them all the time.
- Gildabrand's statement shows she does not understand why pushing her bias into articles as shown here by myself and others is wrong. It is safe to say that if she is allowed to continue editing IP articles that she will continue to bias wikipedia.
- The manner in which Gildabrand "explains" the reasons for her edits shows that she is well aware that she is actively installing bias in wikipedia.
- For example, when explaining why she changed Walid Khalidi from Palestinian to Arab she states that he is infact Arab, well okay, he is Arab, but why did you change it? Is he not Palestinian? The same goes for Mohammad Bakri. She must be hoping we gloss over the lack of explaination for why she rewrote two sentences for the sole purpose of removing the word Palestine from them in the same provided diff.
- She deletes information from leads as "unsourced" even though in both cases (my diffs 2&6) the parts deleted are clearly a summary of extensive and well sourced text found in the body.
- So you removed the statement that Habonim is built on the ruins of Kafr Lam because it was unsourced. Odd isn't it that you didn't remove the statement from Kafr Lam that Habonim is built on it? Why didn't you? Is it perhaps because it is not only obvious but also because it is well sourced there? Why didn't you think of using the same sources that are present at Kafr Lam?
- She "can see no problem whatsoever" with how she cut out in entirety the massacre that occured to the village upon whose ruins were build Avivim. I find it truely disgusting how she can use the term depopulated to refer to what is by no means an exaggeration to call a massacre.
- I guess she just wants to avoid diffs 3&9; just couldn't spin those. Sepsis II (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Gilabrand
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Gilabrand
The only explanation I can come up with after looking at this new set of allegations is an acute case of tone deafness. Since when is it okay to fill Wikipedia with tendentious, repetitious, aggressive and unsourced statements while efforts to tone down sensationalism, reduce redundancies, remove tangential original research and introduce new information based on solid sources are not okay? Have you lost all sensitivity to language and forgotten what neutral writing sounds like? A cherry-picked handful of edits has now been presented here, gleaned from my 49,492 edits on Wikipedia, that supposedly shows “bias.” If people actually read the material in question, instead of relying on the “testimony” of Sepsis (who in the one year he has been around, has acquired a nice little history of blocks and warnings for edit warring, tendentious editing and personal attacks) , they would see that there is not a single violation of Wikipedia policy. On the contrary, the articles in question have all been improved, and I see no evidence of my work having been challenged by anyone until Sepsis crept out of the woodwork. I will now respond to these allegations, point by point: 1) Walid Khalidi is indeed an “Arab” historian. According to his official biography, is the scion of a prominent “Arab family.” 2) Beit Guvrin is an Israeli moshav established in 1949. Information about the prior history is amply provided on the Beit Jibrin page. 3) Mohammad Bakri is indeed an Israeli Arab filmmaker (this is referenced). The article about him is biographical. The place for detailed information about his movie Jenin Jenin and any statements about the fate of the movie’s executive producer is that page. 4) The statements removed from Habonim are unsourced. 5) The statements removed from Zisr az-Zarka are not about Zisr az-Zarka. 6) To the article on Goldhagen (mistakenly identified by Sepsis) I added sourced data from the New York Times and removed unsourced commentary from the lead. 7) MEMRI – The paragraph I deleted from the lead was not sourced. I did not know that Ravpapa was the author and I’m sorry to have pissed him off. Next time he should leave his initials. 8) I can see no problem whatsoever with my copyedits to Avivim. I added a photo and a fact tag for a statement that does not appear in the cited source. Everything you ever wanted to know about massacres appears on the Saliha page. 9) Shani-Livne - I created a history section and all the information was moved there. It was later replaced in the lead and I did not contest that. 10) Shebaa farms – I added new information with references and deleted statements without a source. The article was subsequently edited by Zero and there was no further action on my part.
As you can see, the edits cited by Sepsis consist of linguistic copyedits, removing off-topic material that is covered on a different page, and the addition of text, references and images. If you would like to hear explanations for any other of the other 49,492 edits, I will be happy to provide them. --Geewhiz (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
After she was unblocked, (in spite of her rather obvious false claims of not breaking her ban ) Gilabrand has continued to be among the worst offenders in the whole I/P area. Typically, she removes/downplays Palestinian history, like here, where she moves pre-Ottoman history to "Etymology". And here: where she simply removes the whole Arab history from the caption. Occasionally she simply fabricates history, like at Hittin, she inserts in the lead that: In the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the village was conquered by Israeli troops without a fight. See Talk:Hittin#1948-war
Or here, where Two residents who had remained behind were executed by Israeli soldiers. In December 1948 the army evicted about 40 "old men and women" … becomes: Two villagers were killed in the operation. In December 1948, 40 "old men and women" were transferred….
And occasionally, she removed perfectly good sources, if she doesn´t like them, like Benny Morris here, where The kibbutz was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.<ref name=Morris#6>Morris, 2004, p. xx, settlement #6.</ref><ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92</ref> becomes: According to Arab historian Walid Khalidi, it was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.<ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92</ref>
And then she googles up garbage sources, like here, see Talk:Al-Bireh#not_WP:RS.3F. And this, see Talk:Al_Qastal,_Palestine. Gilabrand can do good copy-edits, but for the Palestinian articles she is a disaster. Huldra (talk) 22:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- To Ravpapa: I think you missed the point: Gilabrand changed the article from: The kibbutz was established on the land of ... to: According to Arab historian Walid Khalidi, it was established on the land of... The first was as an established fact (sourced to two independent first-rate WP:RS sources). After she has finished with the article, the Morris-ref. has disappeared, and the whole fact (which Gilabrand does not like, namely that the Israeli kibbutz was founded on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village) becomes, instead of an undisputed fact, just something attributed to an "Arab historian". I fail to see how this can be a "good faith" edit. If she had wanted to name both sources, she could have written: According to Israeli historian Benny Morris and Arab historian Walid Khalidi... ...and kept the Morris-ref. She didn´t. Huldra (talk) 10:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- And Gilabrand did not move the fact that Habonim is built on lands of the former Palestinian village of Kafr Lam from the lead of the article, to further down: she removed it completely. Instead she inserted that the "medieval" Cafarlet fortress is at the same location: thereby neatly erasing a millennium of Arab history at the place. (This is especially misleading, as the picture of the fortress shows the rounded corner towers: to quote Meron Benvenisti, who has a picture of it in his book "Sacred Landscape" (fig 18 ), with the caption: "Although the round corner towers are from the Ummayad period (tenth century), the Israelis identify them as Crusader, since this period does not contradict the Zionist narrative".) Huldra (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nyttend
Just a passing comment from an uninvolved admin: either you've made a big error with your 11 Nov diff, or I've overlooked the problem despite reading the diff several times. As far as I can see, the edit started with an article that was entirely in one section and added a header to some of it, without touching the bit talking about the settlement's legality. You need to explain why this specific edit was problematic in this way, unless of course you didn't mean to include it for that reason. Nyttend (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- That sentence which Gildabrand placed under the history heading appears in the lead of all Israeli settlement articles, in the end Frederico1234 did put it back into the lead. The conformity of all settlement articles to have that same sentence makes me believe there is a consensus to its inclusion. If someone knows more about this and could inform us about it that would be great. Not all edits are as bad as others but when the smaller ones such as this are seen along side more severe edits such as the pair on Oct 31st it helps to show a steady pattern of pushing bias into articles. Sepsis II (talk) 03:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oh I have found it now, the consensus for placing that sentence in the lead, if not also the body, of all Israeli settlement articles; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements#Settlement illegality text. Sepsis II (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Gilbrand is a skilled writer; if she only edited away from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict she would be a valuable contributor. Alas, whenever the topic is of I-P relevance her bias takes over and her edits can't be trusted. I use these words advisedly; as well as a persistent pov in her choice of words she regularly engages in serious distortion. The complainant lists several examples. As an illustration that this is a long term problem, I'll mention an older edit [11] [12] in which she changed
- "an IDF patrol seized two Arab villagers, Abdullah Ahmad Dagash and Ibrahim Khalil, in a field 300 metres inside Jordan",
which exactly matches the source, to
- "an IDF patrol seized two Arab infiltrators in a field near the armistice line"
(my emphases; the incident is notable because the villagers were murdered). Another similar example occurred at Jish where a well-documented massacre was reduced to "killed in the fighting". Unfortunately nothing has improved since the incidents mentioned. These examples and multiple other examples impressed on me that all of Gilabrand's edits need to be checked for bad faith. This is a chore that should not be necessary. Zerotalk 04:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_7#Motion_regarding_Gilabrand.27s_AE_Block_for_WP:ARBPIA is relevant here, specifically "Gilabrand is further reminded that any future problematic editing following the removal of editing restrictions will be viewed dimly" and that she said "If I am unblocked, I will do my best not to disappoint them.--Geewhiz (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2011" here. A review of the provisional suspension of the AE block is probably merited, but the majority Gila's edits, edits that stay away from contentious issues, improve the encyclopedia. The blunt tools available here to deal with problematic editing are not ideal. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ravpapa
As one who personally finds Gilabrand's political opinions repugnant, I feel pretty bizarre coming to her defense. Nonetheless, I think this complaint raises an issue of principle that needs to be stated. The knee-jerk, pro-Israeli narrative has pretty much been discredited here at Wikipedia, and, in my opinion, rightly so. But it is still a point of view that has considerable, if dwindling, weight on the outside. In this adversarial, pluralistic editing world of Wikipedia, it is, in my opinion, not a bad thing that Israel boosters keep trying - within the rules of the game - to leave their imprint on IP articles, even if they are pretty consistently shot down.
Reviewing the edits by Gilabrand cited as violations of the discretionary sanctions of 21 July 2013, I can read them as either sly efforts to introduce Israeli propaganda into the Wikipedia, or as good-faith edits by a sincere editor who views the world through a pro-Israeli Weltschaum. Take a couple of random examples of the edits cited above: Walid Khalidi is indeed an Arab historian, even if he prefers to be called Palestinian. One could question if the fact that Habonim is built on lands of a former Palestinian village needs to be in the lead of the article, or is better placed further down. And so on. The edits are almost universally ones of spin, not of factual inaccuracies.
Please don't misunderstand: I think it is a good thing that, in almost every case, Gilabrand's pro-Israeli edits have been rejected. I am especially pissed off about her attempt to remove criticisms of MEMRI from the lead of the article - that lead is the outcome of a compromise that I personally worked hard to achieve. But I don't think that, prima facie, her behavior merits sanction. Ravpapa (talk) 06:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ykantor
I am Israeli, but not necessarily agree with all of Gilabrand opinions. Looking at #4 Diff (which is not the mentioned one) , Gilabrand deleted indeed the " information of the depopulation of Arab villages" (other than Jisr az-Zarka) and her reason was:" article is about Jisr az-Zarka". What is wrong with this deletion?
I encounter a lot of similar pro Palestinian UNDUE and POV pushing. Actually, The Arab Israeli conflict articles are full of anti Israeli POV (e.g. [13]). Even a simple factual sentence ("The arabs rejected any form of partition") was repeatedly deleted , and those editors fought against it in the DRN until, eventually a similar sentence was accepted. Bear in mind, the this sentence had plenty of supporting RS, while there is no RS supporting the opposite view.
Even if Gilabrand was not right in some of those points, please keep in mind this general situation. Ykantor (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
I am chipping in simply to note that this complaint allowed us to enjoy a reminder of Ravpapa's wonderful substitution of the expected Weltanschauung with the deviously subversive Weltschaum in his generous remarks above. The first time round I just squeaked with private delight. Today, it lead me back to a train of Buddhist thoughts, well captured in H.W. Bailey's remark about his life being 'a faint streak on the surface of the tossing world of Samsāra'. Arnold Toynbee, A Study of History, OUP, vol.10, (1954) p.16 n.2. To speak of a 'a pro-Israeli Weltschaum,' rather than a Weltanschauung is to dismiss it as 'froth', and froth by definition cannot be 'deeply ingrained'. But even Bailey had his lapses: 'toss' in 'the tossing world' is deliciously vulgar, and cannot have escaped the sensibility of a man who knew about 50 languages that he thought our existence as a dab on the froth of existence a bit of a wank. A 'faint streak on the tossing world' reminds one of this.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Saucy thing! ← ZScarpia 13:09, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, Weltschaum appears to be a word I made up to make myself look literate. Thanks to Nishidani for turning this world of foam back into a world view. Ravpapa (talk) 13:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- But it is a very nice (and expressive) word ... and useful if you need a single word for the froth of the world. I'm going to adopt it with immediate effect. Perhaps we could also use Wikiweltschaum? ← ZScarpia 13:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Debresser. No one doubts Gilabrand is an excellent copy-editor with a real sense of encyclopedic style. However, on the few pages which I have on my watchlist where she occasionally turns up, the style is also one of hit-and-run edits which often need to be reverted. Hit-and-run because (this is memory, I hope not playing me false) if reverted she rarely returns to the talk page. If one makes an edit and it is challenged one should argue for it. I now see her contribs shows a commendably high level of on-article edits, with little talk page discussion (most of us sigh with envy, bogged down in absurd talk page justifications as we are). In copyediting she goes through a page in one edit, often, which throws out the baby with the bathwater. I.e.,
- here at Sykes-Picot Agreement massive removal on the grounds it was ‘off-topic’. Well, actually it was well sourced material contextualizing the agreement in period negotiations that lead to that agreement. Technically all 'background' sections in all I/P articles would have to be removed if she was correct policy-wise in her edit summary.
- Debresser. No one doubts Gilabrand is an excellent copy-editor with a real sense of encyclopedic style. However, on the few pages which I have on my watchlist where she occasionally turns up, the style is also one of hit-and-run edits which often need to be reverted. Hit-and-run because (this is memory, I hope not playing me false) if reverted she rarely returns to the talk page. If one makes an edit and it is challenged one should argue for it. I now see her contribs shows a commendably high level of on-article edits, with little talk page discussion (most of us sigh with envy, bogged down in absurd talk page justifications as we are). In copyediting she goes through a page in one edit, often, which throws out the baby with the bathwater. I.e.,
- But it is a very nice (and expressive) word ... and useful if you need a single word for the froth of the world. I'm going to adopt it with immediate effect. Perhaps we could also use Wikiweltschaum? ← ZScarpia 13:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, Weltschaum appears to be a word I made up to make myself look literate. Thanks to Nishidani for turning this world of foam back into a world view. Ravpapa (talk) 13:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- here at Negev Bedouin, an article which historically underplays drastically any serious indication of the problems. Again good copy-editing, but a large amount of material relevant to the subject was dropped in one huge edit.
- She often elides material without even checking what the sources say. E.g.
- here, at Shuafat. Again there is the unnecessary removal of documented material regarding damage done by Israel. She didn’t check Morris, the source, in copyediting. That is shown by the fact that note 22 lacks pagination to Morris. Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, Cambridge UP, 2004 p.237,345-6 gives the details which, if checked, would have lead to a better reformulation (including the destruction the Palmach visited on the village) of the sentence. One should never copyedit without checking a source. Source-control is one of the things that makes many of us very slow sometimes unproductive editors volume-wise, but it is a sine qua non of any rewriting of an article. Nishidani (talk) 14:10, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- She often elides material without even checking what the sources say. E.g.
Statement by Brewcrewer
@Sandstein. I'll call bullshit on this one as each and every singly commentator here can be banned based on your outlined reasons. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Really? ← ZScarpia 14:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nomoskedasticity
Now that Gilabrand has posted her response, we can have a good impression of what the future holds if action is not taken per this request. In a nutshell: much more of the same. I do hope that she is not given a green light to carry on in this mode. Given the prior history, Sandstein's perspective is the right one. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Debresser
First of all let me state that even though Gilabrand and I have had our differences, I have found this editor to be responsive to reasonable argument on talkpages. Therefore I would in any case argue for discussion, rather than measures.
As to the diffs provided by the editor who opened this complaint:
- Diff number 3: It may very well be that Gilabrand was not aware of the change in title that tok place in January. I also wasn't.
- Diff number 5: The legal status of Israeli settlements is a complex issue, and I have mostly seen it treated in a separate section with the lead of the article mentioning no more than that it is "a matter of discussion" or something like that.
- Diff number 9: Where these museums are located is absolutely not relevant to that line. If anything, it should be no more than a side mention.
- Diff number 10: If he has Israeli citizenship, then he is an "Israeli Arab". That is the official term. He can also be an ethical Palestinian, but in the context it makes more sense to mention the first, and in any case it is true.
It is not hard to find diffs from editors who regularly edit in this controversial field, that show a POV. The question is whether that POV leads to intentional disregard of Wikipedia rules and guidelines. This collection of diffs shows a POV, but no disregard for Wikipedia rules and guidelines, and I am confident that discussion on talkpages would have been enough to reach consensus with this editor. Debresser (talk) 10:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by IZAK
In a nutshell User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is being subjected to not so subtle WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CYBERBULLYING by editors who express a POV that can be summed up as waving a little flag called "WP:IDONTLIKEIT". The accusations against her are also a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED as well as an abuse of WP:LAWYERING.
There are so far few eloquent English speaking Israelis and Jewish editors to do the tough job that Gilabrand does -- to give an alternate explanation and defense to too much blatant pro-PLO, Pro-Arab anti-Israel pushing on WP that is mind-numbing and boring if not outright stupid in its results.
Bottom line: This entire debate is too hilarious for words because of course every editor has a personal POV but as responsible editors we adhere to WP:NPOV as best we can. There is no denying that User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) works to present an Israeli perspective but it is within acceptable bounds. It is absurd to accept that "all" editors who edit I-P topics should sound and act as if they are working for Al Jazeera (hey guess what guys, this may come as a shock to you, but: Wikipedia is NOT Al Jazeera !) or as hired PR flacks for the PLO or Hamas or Hizubbullah or the Ayatolas of Iran etc.
Editors such as Gilabrand are obviously loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view on these subjects cited by the complaint and they will always exist. Duh!!! Just as they cannot be dismissed or ignored or exterminated in the real world by Israel's enemies, they cannot be dismissed or ignored by punishing good editors on WP who come on board who should be debated but not crushed as this complaint is trying to do.
WP cannot be "holier than thou" than the real world by trying to crush any editor who comes along wanting to insert a healthy debate and alternate views that exist out there in the world, that no amount of WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CENSOR will achieve.
It only cheapens WP to crush and humiliate Gilabrand rather than discussing points rationally. And it is a cop-out to take this short-cut rather than debate her point by point, that comes across as a "cyber thought control policeman" acting to enforce "UN resolutions" when WP is neither part of the UN nor does it belong to any majority or minority be they Arabs or Jews. WP has to be fair to all because it is an online ENCYCLOPEDIA and it is not a place to wage WP:WAR. Yes, editing WP takes skill and it is a tough job, but to take out the hatched and try to proverbially "kill off" your opponent rather than engaging in proper intellectual debate and work on the technical and policy aspects of WP editing is disgusting to watch, and soon there will only be anti-Israel editors running what is already a pretty well-known debacle and degradation as more and more (like a doomed sinking Titanic of verbal huckstering) WP takes on the default role as a front for the delegitimization of the Israeli POV (yes it's a POV, just as the PLO has POV and Hamas has a POV).
Okay, so let's imagine, tomorrow Gilabrand is banned or blocked forever. Does that make WP a better place? Will all the critics be happy talking to themselves now that political correctness and groupthink are enforced? It would be yet another Pyrrhic victory that only silly small-minded people could enjoy. Gilabrand is not an "ogre" -- she is a friend of WP as hard to believe that some here may find that to be, and she can be engaged on equal terms. She is smart and knows her facts, and just because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT it is no reason that she should be taken down. WP needs Gilabrand and more editors like her. IZAK (talk) 21:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Yoninah
My experience with Gilabrand is limited to articles about Jerusalem neighborhoods, but on those pages I have seen nothing along the lines of what Sepsis and others are claiming. Gilabrand provides balance and neutrality to these pages, in contrast to the POV diatribe posted by the vociferously pro-Arab, Israel-bashing editors that haunt Wikipedia. On the Neve Yaakov page in particular, I see her consistently revert POV statements[14] and provide citations for challenged material[15]. Rather than topic-banning Gilabrand, I think you should go after the anonymous and not-so-anonymous editors who are doing everything they can to blacken Israel's name without any concern for neutrality or out-and-out libel. Yoninah (talk) 23:19, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Gilabrand
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
The evidence that has been submitted, as well as a review of Gilabrand's contributions, is indicative of a sustained effort by Gilabrand to make Wikipedia's coverage of issues related to the Arab-Israeli conflict reflect a particularly Israeli point of view. This violates the core policy WP:NPOV in its aspect as a conduct rule ("all editors and articles must follow it"). All editors are required to edit Wikipedia from a neutral, rather than a particular point of view. While there may be legitimate disagreement about what is neutral in any given case, a pattern of conduct that consistently favors one point of view is not reflective of an effort in favor of neutrality. There may well be good reasons for many of these edits considered individually, and some of them may well have been improvements from a neutrality or other editorial point of view, but this one-sided pattern of conduct as a whole is not conducive to making Wikipedia in its entirety more neutral, but rather the opposite. In other words, the neutrality policy does not accept that Wikipedia articles are the result of a tug-of-war between ideologically opposed camps that sometimes find a grudging compromise; rather, the policy expects neutral conduct from each and every individual editor. – Considering Gilabrand's very long block log for topic-related misconduct, which dates back to 2008, I think an indefinite topic ban from everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict is indicated. Sandstein 15:02, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Izak, who is well aware that I disagree with him on many related issues, asked me to come here. If anyone therefore wants to move my statement out of the uninvolved category, they are free do do so, but I never edit in this area, and never intend to. I agree with the criticism of most of the specific edits by Gilabrand referred to in the complaint--they do represent an attempt to affect the wording in a particular direction. In the context of all of her edits, and in the context of the sharp disagreements in this area, the question is whether they represent a trivial or a significant violation of neutrality. Looking at all of her contributions, there are a great many excellent ones related in some degree to Israeli affairs not involving directly events in the conflict, but essentially any topic in the geographic area is related in some indirect way, if only in the question of geographic names. Indeed, some of the edits complained of were of this nature. The argument that others editing in this area have to some degree a bias in the opposite direction and cannot avoid demonstrating it in subtle ways is correct. Some of her recent edits, such as those on Murder of Hatuel family seem to bring the balance back to neutrality, rather than away from it. I know that in principle we do not try to attain NPOV by balancing opposite biases but by NPOV writing, but I doubt that anyone working in this field can avoid being affected by their POV. (This is one reason why I do not edit here.) The question is the overall contributions made, and I do not feel we can afford to lose her work entirely. Any topic ban enacted in the broad terms that Sandstein proposes would affect too much of her work, and very possibly would lead to bias in the opposite direction. I do not think on balance that her editing is disruptive, and I do not think her editing is beyond her ability to self-correct. DGG ( talk ) 23:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Pluto2012 disturb the consensus building process by deleting few times
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Pluto2012
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Pluto2012 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 1 November 2013 1st time deletion of a supported and notable sentence
- 4 November 2013 2nd time deletion of the same sentence
- 8 November 2013 3rd time deletion of the same sentence
- 14 November 2013 4th time deletion of the same sentence
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 2 November 2013 by Ykantor (talk · contribs)
- Warned on 14 November 2013 by Ykantor (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
We were discussing the problem in the article talk page in order to achieve a consensus. Among 5 participating users, 3 (me, user:Ykantor and User:Ynhockey,User:Kipa Aduma, Esq.) want this supported and notable sentence to be in the article. user:Huldra (she) was against it and initially deleted the sentence, but later I was in the process of discussing with her what is the context she wanted to add to this sentence. The 5th one is user:Pluto2012 who was busy repeatedly deleting this sentence , and not cooperating in the consensus building process.
Note: an administrator user:Zero0000 may join and describe me as "horrible" while Pluto is "excellent". It has helped Pluto a lot in the past, and might help him again. But eventually, people will realize who is really the "bad" guy, and who is the "good" guy.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Pluto2012
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Pluto2012
Ykantor refuses to see any responsability in his behaviour and will not change this and he goes on with his WP:harassment and WP:Point.
This last week :
- He wrote before the closure of the former request : We have been told that "Pluto deserves a medal". let us extend it and have him knighted with the title "Wikipedia distinguished deleter". I do not mind if he gets a medal, But I do not like to be harassed by him using questionable methods. e.g. cheating, deleting my edit in an article (and subject) he has never being interested before, or deleting for no reason. If he gets medals only, with no warning about those methods, he will continue unabashed. Please. Please. While giving him a medal, just tell him to avoid those methods Ykantor (talk) 21:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- The former request had just been close by that he went on the discussion on sandstein's talk page : here.
- About cooperating to the consensus building process :
- Ykantor launched yesterday 6 different topics on the talk page of the article about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. (An article on which he already launched at least 20 discussions.) But he didn't follow any of these 6 and on the contrary prefer starting this WP:A/E.
- After his complain on WP:A/E, I left the endless WP:DRN he had engaded (even not against me). His comment on the "consensus" that was reached illustrates his total rejection of any collaboration. He wrote : "I agree. As said, The sentence is OK, but since it is cumbersome, I keep the right to use a portion only, where and if it suits the situation, without changing the meaning."... The portion is the core of the disagreement... The fact Arabs would have rejected "any partition plan".
- This can be compared with the way I and others proceed :
- Regarding the "content" of this current complain : "Kipa Aduma" is just a sock and his comments were "removed" from the discussion by Huldra. On the contrary of what Ykantor claims, Huldra still disagrees and the last comments on that talk page are mine and are still waiting for his "reply".
- Mention of "good guy" vs "bad guy" here above. The dichotomy of the world made by Ykantor convinces me he is unable to comply with the principle of WP:NPoV because he simply cannot think that way. That the same when he refuses to look for or introduce information that does not comply with his vision, the Truth. He is not here for wikipedia; he is here to defend Israel. Regarding this last point, I'd like to refer to this Israeli new contributor who asked support to create a new article in wikipedia and that I followed and supported in all his first steps.
- Regarding the "up to where not to go too far" : He attacked me on the village pump where his request was closed. This last point has generated this reaction "against his behaviour" from Huldra on his talk page and this from Nishidani on my talk page : Vexatious forumshopping and injurious misstatements. Don't be intimidated. I would suggest you collect all diffs regarding Ykantor's recourse to A/1, AE, RSN and any other forum, and a list of the complaints he has laid against you and others for an eventual complaint over his behaviour, which is becoming obsessive in your regard. Don't hurry, though. At first I tried to treat him as a potentially good editor, against what you and Zero argued. This latest assault has changed my mind. He is ruining articles by monocular POV-pushing and by harassing neutral and knowledheable editors. Nishidani (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC).
The core of the problem of Ykantor was identified long ago on his talk page and discussed with him : he refuses to comply with NPoV and to add any information that he would not agree with and that could harm "his side". He is on wikipedia to fight for a cause and not to develop a free encyclopaedia.
The attitude of Ykantor is really obsessive towards me and is not acceptable :
- he should be banned from the articles dealing with Israel
- he should be forbidden to mention me anywhere.
Pluto2012 (talk) 04:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Reaction to Ykantor's comment about my diff comment : "obvious sock. Ready for a sacrifice in an edit war". I was of course not talking about me but about Kipa Aduma who I reverted because he is not a "real" contributor as indicated by his editcount but one of these numerous socks who are just here for trouble. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:14, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Note that a complaint by Ykantor against Pluto2012 was made here only 8 days ago and was dismissed, see above.
Ykantor (the complainant) is a remarkably obsessive pov-pusher. When he decides that a sentence should be in an article, all the king's horses and all the king's men won't dissuade him. If he can't get his way by reinserting it multiple times, he'll fish for support on noticeboards and then he'll try to get rid of the editor who stands in his way. Ykantor notes that a discussion about the sentence is underway, which is true, but then he claims that the existence of the discussion means that the sentence must be in the article! It is the exact opposite of what WP:BRD advises, and a violation of the policy WP:NOCONSENSUS. His behavior seems to be getting worse day after day. (Incidentally, I have not investigated the sentence in question and don't have an opinion other than that it seems reasonable to debate its inclusion. Anyway, that's a content issue.)
Propose. That Ykantor be warned that further use of administrative noticeboards to gain advantage in content disputes will be dealt with very sternly. Zerotalk 03:27, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ykantor
the user:Zero0000 is an administrator, and his claims are supposedly more objective. But he repeatedly saves user:Pluto2012 from troubles, like this occasion, of Pluto's multiple sock puppets accounts. I will not repeat Pluto's previous names since the administrator user:Zero0000 might block me, as he already warned another user, while trying to protect Pluto. In my opinion, Zero's view here are biased toward Pluto.
he says | What really happened |
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Zero says: "is a remarkably obsessive pov-pusher. When he decides that a sentence should be in an article, all the king's horses and all the king's men won't dissuade him" | He is talking about this sentence:"The Arabs rejected any form of partition". When eventually the dispute was dealt with, the result was a very similar sentence. why? because it has plenty of supporting RS, while the other claim (The Arabs agreed to at least one form of partition) has no support at all. |
Zero blames me:"he claims that the existence of the discussion means that the sentence must be in the article" | Pluto is aware of his wrong doing: obvious sock - ready for a sacrifice in an edit war. |
Zero says:"It is the exact opposite of what WP:BRD advises, and a violation of the policy WP:NOCONSENSUS" | At his first deletion, Pluto was warned in the talk page that "there is relevant and reliably sourced content, it may be entered into the article. If others claim it is WP:UNDUE because there are other points of view, then they will need to (and it should be very easy for them to) present reliable sources showing these other points of view. The article then incorporates these other sources and then all of the major points of view are then be presented. Claims that one reliable source's view is not representative without providing sources to show the existence of other views do not stand up".. Hence, Pluto's first deletion was knowingly wrong, even before the consensus building discussion has started. |
I call Pluto to stand behind his word: obvious sock - ready for a sacrifice in an edit war. He was aware of his edit warring, and should be treated accordingly Ykantor (talk) 07:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sepsis
I found this edit to be most amusing. I've seen forum shopping but going to the village pump? What's next, article creation - "Pluto is a big jerk"?
This account has a few similarities to NoCal, if the account is not indef blocked for being extremely disruptive and for his conduct towards Pluto then an SPI would be appropriate. Sepsis II (talk) 15:28, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
This is getting absurd. Ykantor opened up a similar WP:AE about the same user on the 8 November, it was closed on Nov. 12, with "It is fairly clear that there is no proven reason, nor consensus, to take any action here." Four days later, and Ykantor opens a new WP:AE, providing exactly -one- new "offending" diff from Pluto after the last AE closed. I´m tearing my hairs out in frustration here: can someone please block/stop Ykantor from waisting everybodys time? Huldra (talk) 18:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC) (Ps: I do not think Ykantor is Nocal, but i have a strong suspicion that he gets "info" (emails?) from Nocal, and some of Ykantors actions here are based on that "info". )
Statement by Nishidani
Ykantor. A simple question, which I think bears on the dozen on recourses to various forums in your conflict with editors and particularly Pluto. In geopolitical conflicts where two nationalisms clash, do both sides have a legitimate POV, or is there a higher truth which vindicates the narrative of one side to that conflict? I think this is the key issue at stake here, and would appreciate your explaining precisely your view on it.Nishidani (talk) 18:12, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- There is one truth only, and it does not prefer any of the sides. However sometimes it is rather difficult to find the truth. But in our case, a lot of archives has been opened (though we still need the Arab states archives) so our understanding of most of the 1948 war events , should converge to the truth. e.g. Was there a massacre in Tantura? Was "Plan D" purpose to expel all of the Arab Palestinians? Did the Hayfa Jewish mayor asked the Arab residents not to leave? Was there a massacre in Deir Yassin? Did the Israeli army expelled the residents of Arab villages X, Y, and Z ? . There is only one answer to those questions and we know it.
- The main problem here is not whether there are 2 parallel narratives or one truth only. The problem is that some people like the truth selectively only. e.g. Was the Army of Liberation emblem — a dagger thrust into a David's Shield? ? An editor who rejects it, does know the correct reply but has other reasons to avoid it. Ykantor (talk) 20:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- I hope admins will allow me some indulgent leeway for a moment to try to settle this by a brief exchange. It may help relieve AE of the burden of repeatedly dealing with the same conflict (if this is an abuse, by all means delete it).
- The Israel archives were opened, the Arab archives were not. Logically this means we have a source imbalance, that does not allow a 'convergence' towards the truth ('converge' means two distinct lines coalescing. Here you admit there is only one, and thus your thought, thus formulated, is self-contradictory). Take one example.
- 'There is only one answer to the following questions and we know it.'+'was there a massacre at Tantura?'
- The Israeli Benny Morris thinks not, but contradicts himself (2004:299-301); the Arabist Henry Laurens seems inclined to think there was (vol.3 (2007):107). They differ on the value of archival vs.oral evidence.
- Therefore, we don't know, and perhaps cannot know. We have sources that differ. Two authorities admit the question is controversial, and diagree as to weight, The truth is unknown.
- The same could be shown for all of your examples. What we do know is (a) there are two parallel narrative lines which (b) are related differently often by various members of the scholarly community and thus (c) conscientious editors must take all accounts into consideration, weigh them for facts and interpretative biases in order to write the article, which we are obliged to ensure that it is neutral to both perspectives. Read Hayden White's Metahistory and you might realize the problem with approaching the past as you do. Historians write and rewrite history precisely because the interpretations of the known facts are fluid. Pluto is aware of these problems: you, apparently, are not.
- Unlike others, I believe you are in good faith, but cannot see what is obvious to many other editors, i.e., history is very, very complex. We must be faithful to sources (which are often riven by contradictions), whatever the truth, which it is not our remit to establish.Nishidani (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Pluto2012
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
[Announcement] Discretionary sanctions review – draft 2
The Arbitration Committee is reviewing its discretionary sanctions system. Many administrators active on this noticeboard participated in a recent consultation for this review. The committee has taken into account all comments made in that consultation, and a second draft has now been published at WP:AC/DSR#Draft v2. Please review the new draft, and feel free to comment at WT:AC/DSR#Draft v2. For the Arbitration Committee, AGK [•] 23:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Doncram
Withdrawn by the submitter Nyttend. EdJohnston (talk) 14:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Doncram
No warning given, but I don't believe that one is needed here, as this case centered around Doncram's actions; it's not like WP:ARBPIA, which is relevant even to people who haven't heard of it before.
These additional comments I've added after filing the complaint. After I notified Doncram, I found that Seraphimblade had left Doncram a warning about the edits in question. Is it okay if I withdraw this request, since the issue's already been handled? Nyttend (talk) 03:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DoncramStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DoncramStatement by (username)Result concerning DoncramThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
|
DXRD
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DXRD
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DXRD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Nov 16 21:39 first revert
- Nov 17 07:24 second revert
- Nov 17 12:28 third revert "we can play this cat-dog game till you'll give up"
- Nov 17 09:08 EST fourth revert
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on Nov 17 07:55 by Zero0000 (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
DXRD is not a new editor; started 2006. Reminds me of someone, but I'm useless at sock detection. Talk page shows multiple prior complaints for editing misbehavior and personal attacks.
In this instance is pushing rubbish into the sensitive article Palestinian people. The idea is that there are no Palestinians, but only interlopers from other places, since some of them have family names that indicate distant origin. It is a standard bleat of the most brainless branch of the anti-Arab right-wing.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DXRD
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DXRD
Statement by Malik Shabazz
- 5th revert "The FALSE info on this article ends here, the Israelite Sheriff is in town." — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:45, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- 6th revert "we can do this all day" — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- 7th revert [16] — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:14, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DXRD
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Since User:DXRD didn't reply to the invitation to respond here, and since he reverted twice more at Palestinian people after 17:45 on 17 November, I recommend a one-week block and a three-month topic ban from ARBPIA. The personal remarks in the edit summaries ('Israelite sheriff') suggest he is hoping to go out in a blaze of glory. If he believes that User:Nishidani is the Israelite sheriff he is probably on the wrong track. His reverts continued after the ARBPIA notice. EdJohnston (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- I think they mean the "sheriff" is them. Based on the confrontative mindset demonstrated in these reverts, I agree but would impose an indefinite topic ban. I've blocked the account for 48 h to stop the ongoing edit-warring, without prejudice to further sanctions being discussed here. Sandstein 18:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
@Sandstein: Your block seems appropriate, since without it the reverts would have continued endlessly. In his recent edits DXRD seems to be going out of his way to show how much trouble he can be ("we can play this cat-dog game till you'll give up"). I'd support an indefinite ARBPIA topic ban. If he changes his mind in the future he can ask for it to be lifted. EdJohnston (talk) 22:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC)