Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Neo.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Neo. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Temporary name for account "Neo." (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Topic ban 'religion and politics in Gujarat' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Neo.#Notice_of_Arbitration_Enforcement_noticeboard_discussion
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by User:Neo.
- As per WP:AC/DS criteria 2 and 4, warning should be given by uninvolved admin and it should identify misconduct and advise to mend ways. This sanction is based on this so-called warning by involved editor.
- I have edited only 2 Gujarat related articles with total 8 edits. 1 edit on Narendra Modi to concur with same 2 reverts by 2 users.[1] I have 7 edits on 2002 Gujarat violence. Before starting editing the article, I had told User:Darkness Shines to discuss his replacement of article on article talkpage.[2][3] As Darkness Shines didn't hid me and other 2 users, I did 3 edits on 6 July and 1 edit on 8 July to restore previous version of the article.[4][5][6][7] 2 edits on 15 July 2 concur with contents of User:Utcursch.[8][9] I have attempted to include my own contents only once in any Gujarat related article on 10 July[10] (and that edit was reverted after 6 minutes.[11]) I think it is inappropriate to ban me from whole spectrum of Gujarat related articles because of only 8 edits.
- I had clarified on talkpage that whole issue is about 'Godhra train burning' section to make it neutral.[12] But even after that User:Qwyrxian filed appeal to ban me and admins have banned me for whole range of articles. As I have tried to include my contents only once, I think the appeal by Qwyrxian was to restrict me from article talkpage. In that case, Qwyrxian and other users like him could have chose not to respond to me.
- Initially on 17 July, Admin Cailil proposed 1 month page ban. On 26 July, Admin EdJohnston read my this comment on talkpage of Admin Future Perfect. He used my own idea, inflated it and proposed either 3 months ban on Gujarat politics, religion articles or no ban at all, just warning. Then Admin Cailil changed his mind to concur with 3 month ban on whole spectrum of Gujarat articles. As I am not involved in other articles, I think this decision is unfair and needs to be reviewed.
- I apologize for accusation of 'tag team'. I made 'academic crap' comment rather in jest to counter 'shit article' comment of Darkness Shines.[13]
- I have no specific area of interest on Wikipedia. I treat myself in anti-vandal unit and I can jump on any article out of 4.4 million articles. On 3 July, I detected that Darkness Shine is about to replace whole article with his own version and I just jumped in. My involvement in Gujarat related articles is limited only to '2002 Gujarat violence' and that too ONLY for this 'Godhra train burning' section. Once this section has covered both theories to make it neutral, I will refrain from editing any Gujarat related article or its talkpage. I request you to lift this ban so that I can go to DRN or Rfc or any appropriate forum to resolve this issue. Thank you. Temporary name for account "Neo." (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
- @ Cailil: WP:AC/DS requires that warning should be given by 'uninvolved admin' which should specify misconduct and advise. You are citing so-called warning given by 'involved admin' who is equivalent to involved editor like Darkness Shines. And another warning by Bbb23 and RegentsPark was regarding possible edit war. If edit war warning are basis of AC/DS, I don't see mention of it. Also your argument that some other editor can go to DRN or Rfc is flawed. There are 5 users (DS, Maunus, Qwyrxian, The Rahul Jain, RegentsPark) who are working in 'collaboration' to prevent edits to the article. It is impossible for single user to contribute to the article. Even edit of Admin User:Utcursch was reverted by DS.[14][15] When I tried to concur with edit of Utcursch, Qwyrxian came here to sanction me and then DS reverted edit of Utcursch. Single editor like me or Utcursch can never succeed to make the article neutral. Also, when Qwyrxian has said that he wanted me to ban from only article talkpage and when I never edited other articles, why I have been banned from whole range of articles? Temporary name for account "Neo." (talk) 11:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Statement by User:EdJohnston
- The article that was most in dispute was 2002 Gujarat violence. My closure of the original AE complaint about User:Neo. can be seen at this link. I hope that my reasoning was clear. I participated along with three other admins in reaching a conclusion. EdJohnston (talk) 20:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Cailil
Neo is not actually providing an objective basis for over turning here. The level of warnings received by Neo on July 8/9th was extraordinary. As detailed in the above AE thread, Qwyrxian notified Neo that the area was under discretionary sanctions[16] and this was followed by stern warnings from by Regents park and Bbb23 that a block was imminent. As detailed above 3 sysops (myself, Future Perfect and Ed) saw Neo has having sufficient warning for sanction. His behaviour was untenable, and the continued level of invective towards other users in this request should be noted. I stand by the decision above. The Gujarat article can go to RFC or DRN without Neo and a consensus can still be formed and solution to any policy based issues can be resolved, again without this user's intervention (IF such actions are required). Neo's request is for the ban to be lifted so that he can return to previous activities - the very activities that led to this sanction--Cailil talk 11:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Qwyrxian
I do not understand this request. The enforcement action was taken less than a week ago. The reasoning was clearly laid out, and supported by several uninvolved administrators as well as a number of involved editors. Neo offers no new evidence, nor really any novel reasoning. I'm unclear why he thinks AE should reverse the properly instated topic ban, except because he doesn't like it.
I do want to respond to one of Neo's points, where he says, "As I have tried to include my contents only once, I think the appeal by Qwyrxian was to restrict me from article talkpage." Yes! That is absolutely what I was trying to do. Your points on the talk page were tendentious and disruptive. They were preventing positive, consensus-building steps forward, because you kept repeating the same non-policy compliant suggestions and arguments. Further, you continued to cast unwarranted aspersions on other editors. Thus, your participation on that page was a net negative to the project.
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:Neo.
Result of the appeal by User:Neo.
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- From reviewing this, I see no reason to accept the appeal, but I will wait for more comments from uninvolved administrators before closing. SirFozzie (talk) 01:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow
The appeal is declined. TheShadowCrow is restricted from appealing the topic ban more than once every six months, counting this appeal, but excluding appeals to the Arbitration Committee. Sandstein 10:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by TheShadowCrowOn July 25, User:Ymblanter was under the impression I had violated a ban, not knowing at the time that it had expired 2 weeks previously. User:GiantSnowman, who has a history of not even bothering to look things up (not my words) immediately put down a block without even bothering to see the ban was expired. User:Sandstein had then came in and confirmed that I had not violated the expired ban (which he applied), but did claim I violated my current ban of WP:ARBAA2. I told him he is wrong, and he admitted that he was indeed wrong and I had not violated said ban. Even though the block was clearly based off a an expired block, GiantSnowman refused to remove it, which denies him of sympathy admins would later give him for "not knowing about the sport exemption", even though this has nothing to do with WP:ARBAA2. I filled an appeal on my talk, and it was soon moved here, where I couldn't add to it. Despite that this wasn't related to the WP:ARBAA2, as you can see in the last link the admins talked about it as if it was and assumed that, proposed by User:EdJohnston, removing the sport exemption would simplify things, which made no sense at all. Despite the block being based on a expired ban, it took the admins 5 days to decide to lift it, with the sports exemption gone. Ownership of the ban was given to User:Bbb23. It previously belonged to User:CTCooper, who was in favor of lifting the block. Bbb23 agreed to putting the exemption back. However, he hasn't, and has been really unresponsive to my requests to do so, more or less not upholding the task placed upon him. So now I'm here, requesting I am returned what was taken from me. And I really hope no Admin is going to close this right away and refuse to comment. I get a bad feeling that is going to happen. TheShadowCrow (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Bbb23Statement by GatoclassI'm not sure whether or not I should comment in the "Results" section since I participated in the related case, but I will repeat here what I said there, along with some additional observations. TSC's last two blocks were overturned, meaning that his last endorsed sanction was, if I'm not mistaken, in December last year. Since then, he has authored over 100 articles about Armenian sportspeople. TSC came to attention again recently for a couple of edits seen as violations of his ARBAA2 topic ban. One was for initiating a discussion about the correct name of an ethnic Armenian sportsperson, the other was for a copyedit to the page of a category seen as coming under ARBAA2. Both these blocks have subsequently been overturned, but in the appeal against the second block it was decided to rescind TSC's previous exemption from Armenian-related sports articles, meaning he is now prevented from editing such articles. After a brief review of the evidence, I still cannot see any justification for the removal of TSC's editing privileges regarding ethnic Armenian sportspeople. This topic area is clearly an area of interest to him and he appears to be contributing useful content there, so what purpose is the ban supposed to be serving? The two blocks for two edits in the exempted topic area which supposedly violated his ARBAA2 ban area have both been rescinded, so in effect his editing privileges in the sports-related area have been removed for offences that were subsequently deemed either nonexistent or dubious, which hardly seems to be a just outcome to me. I could also point out that the two alleged offences which attracted the now-rescinded blocks were at most minor or technical in nature, and IMO might have been better responded to with nothing more than a word of advice or caution, per WP:AGF. Withdrawal of a user's editing privileges, particularly for an indefinite period, is a serious step that should never be undertaken without due cause, and I am simply not seeing it in this case. Gatoclass (talk) 06:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Bearman's evidence has reminded me that TSC's editing of Armenian sports-related pages over the last six months has not been entirely trouble free. I'm still not sure that a ban is the best response but can see why others might come to that conclusion. The user might benefit from a mentor, but I'm afraid I can't put my hand up as I don't have time to take on more responsibilities at present. If and when TSC is permitted to return to editing in the topic area, I would suggest a mentor be considered as he clearly has some way to go on the learning curve ATM. Gatoclass (talk) 05:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC) Statement by YmblanterI noticed that TSC did not provide the link to the discussion from which their recent troubles started. Here it is: Talk:Khoren Oganesian#Requested move 2. This is not a long discussion, and everybody can check that TSC is not prepared to follow Wikipedia policies, and resolves to personal attacks instead. I should also add that I personally first came across TSC a year ago, when I they were persistently adding the category Category:Armenian judoka to Arsen Galstyan, wh o is accidentally an Olympic Champion competing for Russia. My attempts to remove the category resulted in this discussion, where at some point TSC stated that I should find sources that Galstyan does not have Armenian citizenship. My general impression is that discussion anything with TSC is baseless. The only argument they accept is a warning of an imminent block based on arbitration restrictions. I am afraid the arbitation enforcement should be kept in force, or, at the very least, they should be placed on a 1RR rule or smth. Otherwise they will be discussing any edit to death not really being succeptible to any arguments based on Wikipedia policies.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC) Statement by BearMan998I've had several run-ins with TheShadowCrow on BLP pages of Armenian athletes. Typically, I found that TSC will make pushy and POV edits on these articles. One such incident resulted in a 3 month topic ban on April 11, 2013. This can be seen here. Not only did TSC make a pushy nationality related edit to the Gegard Mousasi article, TSC then went ahead and made misleading edits on the Karo Parisyan article by manipulating what the sources actually stated. As a result, TSC was topic banned from BLP and Armenian related articles for 3 months starting on April 11th. However, TSC immediately broke this topic ban on April 22, 2013 as can be seen in this thread. In fact, there were some egregious violations of the topic ban including one to change the name of an Armenian athlete (Khoren Oganesyan) on another page when TSC's attempt to have Khoren Oganesyan's name changed on the main article failed. Based on recent history, I just have not seen TSC being able to edit Armenian related pages with a neutral point of view and it seems that TSC can not work within the boundaries of policy with regards to these articles. BearMan998 (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved IRWolfie-It appears TSC is attempting to wikilawyer here by smearing those uninvolved admins that he has interacted with. Considering the lack of WP:CLUE this entails, as well as the attempt to wikilawyer on this page by deleting the comments of other editors, I would concur with simply closing this discussion, and implementing the proposed topic ban from making further non-arbcom appeals for 6 months, IRWolfie- (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow
Result of the appeal by TheShadowCrow
TheShadowCrow is subject to an indefinite Armenia-Azerbaijan topic ban, which they do not appeal here. Rather, they ask that sports topics be exempted from the ban. However, they do not provide any reason for why that exemption should be made in the light of the reasons for the original topic ban. For that reason, the appeal should be declined. Moreover, as any who follow this board and WP:RFAR may attest, TheShadowCrow has recently been engaging in what I can only call a misguided campaign of wikilawyering against perceived failings by administrators (of which the tone of this request is an example), while failing to address in their voluminous submissions their own conduct that is the basis of all restrictions that apply to them. As I have indicated in a previous appeals discussion, TheShadowCrow's apparent difficulty in understanding the meaning and scope of topic bans, coupled with their very confrontative and exhausting attitude towards any administrators interacting with them, would result in any exceptions being very difficult and time-consuming to manage. For this reason, too, the appeal should be declined. Additionally, considering the volume of recent misguided sanctions-related requests by TheShadowCrow, I propose that they are restricted from appealing their sanctions to any authority other than the Arbitration Committee more than once every six months, including this appeal. Sandstein 06:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I’d like first to address the issue of whether I am WP:INVOLVED. I was the administrator who offered an opinion and closed the last block appeal by TSC. As part of that closure, I found there was a consensus that the block exemption was properly rescinded (User:CT Cooper, the admin who had implemented the exemption, had rescinded it). I don’t believe that evaluating a previous block appeal makes me involved. In addition, contrary to TSC’s claim above, I am not the admin who imposed the exemption. As already stated, CT Cooper did. The ban for which I took "ownership" was the current indefinite ban, originally imposed by The Blade as a six-month ban back in September 2012 (I think that’s the right month), and later extended indefinitely by CT Cooper. A discussion among several admins occurred on User:EdJohnston’s talk page as to what “ownership” meant in this context, and it was agreed that it simply meant that TSC could come to me with questions he had about the ban. It did not mean that I had the same privileges as a normal sanctioning admin, that I could unilaterally undo my sanction. Indeed, it was clearly agreed in that discussion that the only way TSC could eliminate or otherwise reduce the scope of the ban was through AE. The only other possible basis for finding me involved is TSC’s “harassment” of me, for which he was warned by User:Seraphimblade. I do believe that it would have been unreasonable for me to block TSC for that particular disruption, but that’s the only narrow exception I see in my interaction with TSC, which has been otherwise purely administrative. There are no merits to this appeal. Indeed, it is frivolous. Since being unblocked, TSC has done nothing constructive on Wikipedia. Last time I checked he had made only two article edits since being unblocked. The rest of the time he has spent, to put it bluntly, screaming at just about everyone. I advised him after the last unblock that not only was I not going to alter his ban on my own, but also that there was a clear consensus that he should wait at least three, if not six, months before appealing any aspect of his ban. He has refused – and continues to refuse – to accept that. TSC’s statement here that "Bbb23 agreed to putting the exemption back" is false. If you click on the link, it says exactly the opposite of what he says. Unlike User:Gatoclass, I do not view TSC’s conduct to be similar to that of an editor who was just blocked and has an emotional reaction. Generally speaking, that occurs momentarily immediately succeeding a block. TSC’s conduct is an unending series of episodes in which he acts irrationally. Many of his outbursts, which I will not expand on here, are blockable in and of themselves, and he has been fortunate not to have been blocked until his behavior in this forum.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
This is getting old now. It's clear that there is no consensus to grant the appeal. I'm therefore closing the request as declined, and with the restriction as discussed above. This is without prejudice to any action, such as a block, that individual administrators may additionally wish to undertake. Sandstein 10:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC) |