Requests for enforcement
Smith2006
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Request concerning Smith2006
- User requesting enforcement
- radek (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Smith2006 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren
- Sanction or remedy that has been violated
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy
- edit summary:"Polish Nationalist POV"
on talk: "Polonized extremely Slavic-Polish name is based on nothing"
edit summary:"Polish is therefore POV"
edit summary:"Severe Polish chauvinist POV article"
edit summary:"Stalinist 1954 Polish Annexationist "history" is unscientific, like Nazi sources"
additionally, this attitude and incivility isn't confined to Poland/Germany related articles:
- Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue
- Personal attacks directed at individual editors and whole groups (Polish and other editors). Creating a battleground atmosphere. Severe incivility. Offensive use of sarcasm which suggest extreme bad faith in others. Increasing the extent of these offenses after being warned repeatedly on talk [1], [2] and on his talk page [3] and especially after the notification of sanctions was given by User:PhilKnight [4]
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- I think even without the restrictions notification [5] and the previous case on this board [6] this kind of behavior would result in a substantial block for incivility alone. The fact that this user chose to amplify his attacks after being notified of the editing restriction suggests a much more serious problem. Please note the time stamp on User:PhilKnight's notification and that all of the above violations occurred well after it was placed on the user's talk page. So topic ban and a block long enough to send the appropriate message seems in order.
- Additional comments
- Note how soon this user pops up again. Notification diff. Also I apologize for any formatting errors ahead of time - first time filing one of these.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.
Discussion concerning Smith2006
Result concerning Smith2006
Thank you for the detailed report. I certainly agree with Smith2006 that "nationalist POV must be banned from wikipedia". That includes attempts to turn Wikipedia into a nationalist battleground, as he does here.
In view of the previous case above and pursuant to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions, I am topic-banning Smith2006 from all Eastern Europe-related subjects for six months. The ban extends to all Wikipedia pages, including talk and other discussion pages, and especially to the subject of Polish/German identity. Any violations of this ban can be reported to me or to WP:ANI and will result in blocks. Sandstein 18:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Baku87
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Baku87
- User requesting enforcement
- Gazifikator (talk) 10:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Baku87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2
- Sanction or remedy that has been violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy
- BLP violation [7], nearly all of his reverts are done without discussion, see those for example [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] [14] [15] [16] [17], removes sourced info like here for exemple. Other disruptions include, misuse of sub template for developped articles so that the word 'Azeri' is highlined. See those: [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40]. uncivil comments like [41]
- Being reverted for his adding of those stub, Baku87 has gone to create the template Historical regions of Caucasian Albania. It is too much disruptive, Caucasian Albania itself is a historical region and on top of it he add Azerbaijan republic's map on the template and go on to add them in those with the template on Historical regions of Armenia [42], [43], [44], [45], [46].
- Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue
- Baku87 is techincally under restriction even though noone reported him. He has a block logged here, and while Moreschi blocked him for jumping out of nowhere and reverting without participation in the talkpage, he continue doing that.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Misuse of templates, creation of templates for POV pushing and reverting out of nowhere without participation in talkpage is more than some 1RR non compliance, this user should at the very least be blocked for a week.
- Additional comments
- {{{Additional comments}}}
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [47]
Discussion concerning Baku87
This report seems to be a retaliation for the report concerning Gazifikator [48] for edit warring at Radical Islamism in Azerbaijan, where Baku87 tried to restore the reliable sources, deleted by Gazifikator without any consensus with other editors. Grandmaster 11:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, I disagree with his edits at Radical Islamism in Azerbaijan, but we already discussed it at the relevant report [49]. This report is about a large number of possible disruptive edits in different articles, many of these articles I never edited or edited only one time, while his activities there need to be checked. Gazifikator (talk) 11:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Looking over at your diffs, I see no BLP violation here: [50] It was a reliable info from Associated Press that a sock account Onlyoneanswer (talk · contribs) was trying to delete: [51] And in articles like Varoujan Garabedian, Radical Islamism in Azerbaijan, Armenian National Committee of America Baku87 restored sourced information that you were trying to delete. If he was edit warring, then so were you. And I do not understand how creating a template about the historical kingdom of Caucasian Albania could be disruptive. We have such templates for other states. And placement of stub templates was a good faith mistake which Baku87 stopped doing after he was explained that they were not appropriate. Grandmaster 04:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- This place is not for arguing, check WP:BLP section about criticism and praise, there on sure was a clear cut violation, members were blocked or even banned for such violation. The addition on the Armenian National Committee of America was a reinsertion of a SPA account, of over half of the lead against rules. The template historical region of Caucasian Albania fails any editorial guidelines. Caucasian Albania is a historic region itself, it's an oxymoron. And I notice that you have nothing to say about the fact that he added Azerbaijan's map. Your claim that adding the template about Azeri sub was a misunderstanding from his part is innacurate, he did not stop after being explained in his talk and even despite being reverted by yourself, he even reverted you, he only stopped when he had the idea of creating that disruptive template and placing Azerbaijan's map on it. On Radical Islamism in Azerbaijan, he had no idea what he was reverting, as seen in the diff, he added a duplicate material, one following the other (see by yourself), and never discussed his edits except of this one time "justification" of obvious POV-pushing [52]. Enough please leave admins to make the decision, this is becoming soapboxing. In any case, he violated 1RR numerous times. Gazifikator (talk) 08:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Looking over at your diffs, I see no BLP violation here: [50] It was a reliable info from Associated Press that a sock account Onlyoneanswer (talk · contribs) was trying to delete: [51] And in articles like Varoujan Garabedian, Radical Islamism in Azerbaijan, Armenian National Committee of America Baku87 restored sourced information that you were trying to delete. If he was edit warring, then so were you. And I do not understand how creating a template about the historical kingdom of Caucasian Albania could be disruptive. We have such templates for other states. And placement of stub templates was a good faith mistake which Baku87 stopped doing after he was explained that they were not appropriate. Grandmaster 04:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
The diffs provided are not obviously problematic, at least not to the point of requiring discretionary sanctions. If the diffs represent a pattern of misconduct, the request fails to show this adequately. For instance, it is unhelpful to talk about 1RR without explaining why 1RR even applies to these edits, and by which sequence of edits exactly it was violated. I currently consider this request to be non-actionable. Sandstein 20:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: As with Sandstein, I am of the opinion that the diffs presented are not indicative of a wider pattern of disruption. However, I am concerned that, of the diffs presented, many of the reverts are being cited as disruptive where they undid an edit by the editor filing this report. Perhaps any wider problems could be resolved by a serious effort to discuss, rather than revert, on both Gazifikator and Baku87's part. I am alarmed at the frequency at which reports are filed under the provisions of Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 by the same old faces, and am beginning to suspect that there is an inability on the part of a handful of editors to work constructively together in this subject area. AGK 14:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
To Sandstein, the members of the Armenian Wikiproject have only reported editors for clear cut disruption, and not only according to the blind 1RR rules. But since you Sandstein do not seem to know what you are supposed to enforce in this particular case, I will show you so that next time, you become more aware.
See here the initial application, as it says as put in place in AA1, and what was put in place was He is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. This was further extended (but still included this) to this, because the previous one was too restrictive.
If you check those reverts, Baku87 did not justify most of them in the talkpage as required by what was imposed; he jumped out of nowhere to revert (for which Baku87 was initially blocked by Moreschi). You can not selectively impose 1RR without the per rule requirement of justifying your revert in the talkpage... or else the 1RR becomes a worthless restriction.
Second clear cut disruption, which fails me, was that you ignored wondering where is the disruption. Check again here. Baku87 has created Historical regions of Caucasian Albania template by adding Azerbaijan republic map on the left side, and started adding this template in the articles where the template Historical regions of Armenia were present. The sanction should be applied when an editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.
- Caucasian Albania is already a historic region, it's not a current state or entity to have a template about its historic regions.
- 'What does the map of Azerbaijan have to do here on a template that is supposed to be about Caucasian Albania?
Here Baku87 has failed to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, he obviously knows that Caucasian Albania did not have the republic of Azerbaijan's map and that also, it is by itself a historic region. On top of that, he for ages refused to discuss his out of nowhere reverts in the talkpage as required by the 1RR rules.
If you are unwilling (appears that for you the restrictions only apply to Meowy) to prevent any further disruption by Baku87, I see no other option than going right to the Arbcom for his long standing content disruptions.
Shall I remind you Sandstein that you dismissed the report here, when just before the other day, it was CU documented that most of those reported there were sockpuppets and who were obviously disrupting. A quick and careful look at the report should have been enough to see that something wrong was going on and proceed to stop it. The ignorance of that report, initiated by your dismissal, has damaged several articles which should, as of yet, be fixed. Be careful next time please. - Fedayee (talk) 17:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why so bitter towards Sandstein, Fedayee…? AGK 21:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- In response to Fedayee, it is worth noting that the report at WP:ANI that he claims was dismissed for no reason, was filed by MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs), a puppetmaster himself, who was banned for 3 months for evading his parole with a sock account The Diamond Apex (talk · contribs). [53] So it is very curious that a socking person was accusing others of disruption. Btw, I think MarshallBagramyan's original 1 year rv parole should be made indef after the last 2 blocks. As for his report, he just dumped together various unrelated users he happened to disagree with, and claimed that they all needed to be punished. Some of those accounts later turned out to be socks. I suspected one of those accounts, InRe.Po (talk · contribs), but I failed to correctly identify the puppetmaster, so my report was declined. [54] But that was not the fault of the admins, they need a clear evidence to act on. Grandmaster 04:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why so bitter towards Sandstein, Fedayee…? AGK 21:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Please assume good faith with MarshallBagramyan. MarshallBagramyan never evaded any blocks at all and several admins are aware that it was not sockpuppetry and that The Diamond Apex was not him and was someone who was supposed to replace VartanM who left the project because of Standstein. The rest is private. MarshallBagramyan has not appealed because he suffered Wikiburnout after being victim of massive sockpuppetry, sockpuppets supporting you. As for InRe.Po, your report here was ridiculous, because it was obvious that InRe.Po and the other user had a compleatly different and opposit POV. And it was obvious that your request was to be rejected, you filled under the base that both editors edit seemed similar in March Massacre, the result of your request was to associate him with the wrong editor. What MarshallBagramyan reported was that InRe.Po and you were opposing eachothers in talkpages while in the article InRe.Po was pushing your own POV, MarshallBagramyan has used the word strawpuppetry.
MarshallBagramyanwas was about to fill an arbitration request requiring the matter to be dealt with, but you filed one yourself and it was too late. If the case you requested was accepted the sockpuppetry would have never been documented. From the CUer block log we can assume that InRe.Po and for example Deniz Gokturk are the same users, because they were blocked exactly at the same time. We see from Deniz contributions that after two months of inactivities he came out of nowhere to edit Armenian "terrorist" related articles which was a suspicious recent interest of you and Atabey. Given this, some can assume that InRe.Po was only pretending to oppose you in talkpage. We see even an Armenian name written in Armenian alphabet who was blocked at the same time showing another strawpuppetry issue. It's funny you talk about sockpuppetry when more than a dozen from the user who was helping you on 'Armenian terrorism' were just blocked two days ago. I will assume good faith and suppose that this user who was not editing for two months misteriously became interested to what you were editing and decided to help you. Gazifikator (talk) 14:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hi AGK. Don't know, maybe because I overestimated admins a little bit, believing that there are several admins like Moreschi out there. A little sad when those admins are the exception rather than the rule. See here the level of quality of Sandstein's blocks, Meowy was the only one engaged in the discussion, another user for the same number of revert without any engagement in the talkpage as required gets away with it and Sandstein refuses to explain it. When any administrator with any level of judgment would see that Meowy was being baited when his contribution was being reverted without any discussion as required to have him restricted. Despite several users asking for an explanation on Sandstein's talkpage, he provided no rationale (Sandstein's use of admin tools are very questionable indeed).
- Your comparison between Baku87's and Gazifikator's reverts don't overrule evidence; Gazifikator was the main opposition from that side and engaged in the discussion of the controversial edits. Baku87 on the other hand reverted for other editors. That, in Wiki terms, is called meatpuppeting. Sandstein also sabotaged a genuine report by a user by dismissing it when what was reported was a real cause for concern. This has been proven later with a massive sockpuppetry case which was documented when all these users were blocked: ShykArkzin, Erkin Koray, ArmenianFromAlabama, A.Abdullayev, ErkTGP, Deniz Gokturk, J.Dain, Mol1987, Rateslines, InRe.Po, Avonosky, April1980, ButlerJim, Generalship, HubrisTN, Gazicumator, ShykMardin, Selda1982, 06singhk, DanyCarvion, Dany L. Carvion, TarikAkin, Jelali, Hadise1992, Tugralar, Kawakli Gewer, Ahmetsaatalti, SavasmaSevis, Mgortago, Անդրանիկ, Osmansdream, Phenuqio1981, FcSphere, AbdulKerim1991, Rush1937, ArgoconianGubekian. Sandstein's questionable decisions was also why VartanM left the project.
- Sandstein should leave other administrators to deal with AA2 restrictions because he has shown that he is incapable of using the tools adequately. Hope this answers your question. - Fedayee (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't understand this. "The Diamond Apex was someone who was supposed to replace VartanM"? Then how come that those 2 ended up being each other's socks? [55] Grandmaster 04:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As for InRe.Po, he pushed his own POV, and I suspected from the very beginning that he was a sock, because he was too knowledgeable about wiki editing practices for a newbie. I just could not instantly figure out who was behind that account, but fortunately admins eventually sorted this out. It would be good if you assumed good faith and stopped making absurd accusations towards editors like myself, who in fact tried to prevent sockery. Grandmaster 04:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also, I don't understand the relevance of MarshallBagramyan's old report, sockpuppetry by unknown person, etc to this report. It is a deviation from the topic. Let's keep this focused. Grandmaster 05:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Making absurd accusations ıs the way to play the game and win. Better still, make those accusations where nobody can ever see them, through the back channels that the administrators use. I don't know who made the absurd accusation that The Diamond Apex was a sockpuppet account. Maybe it was the likes of Sandstein whıo did it - an admin whose partisan bigotry is well known and knows no end - or maybe it was another admin (whose name I won't mention) whose ego is so fragile that he will file away the supposed insult of having his edits challenged and make sure that the other editor is quickly got rid of, using his own little band of admin meatpuppets. Meowy 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please. That's quite enough of the soapboxing. Shall we stick to discussing only the merits of the complaint? AGK 18:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- "Soapboxing" name-calling is just a way of avoiding the issue. There is no point in sincerely discussing the merits of this or any similar case because those who will have to make final decision have lost all credibility (as have the AA2 edit restrictions). Meowy 18:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see that Baku87 did something that the person filing the report has not done. In fact, Gazifikator was involved in edit warring on a much larger scale, and repeatedly undid edits of other editors, failing to reach any consensus on deletion of info from articles. Grandmaster 06:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Seriously? Can you show an uncivil comment by my side, a creation of POV/OR template, any dubious/agressive manner reverts that weren't discussed? You were engaged in more editwarrings than me or even Baku87, but the case is about Baku87, his disruptive edits, a large number of POV-pushings anto AA2-related articles. Gazifikator (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please. That's quite enough of the soapboxing. Shall we stick to discussing only the merits of the complaint? AGK 18:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Making absurd accusations ıs the way to play the game and win. Better still, make those accusations where nobody can ever see them, through the back channels that the administrators use. I don't know who made the absurd accusation that The Diamond Apex was a sockpuppet account. Maybe it was the likes of Sandstein whıo did it - an admin whose partisan bigotry is well known and knows no end - or maybe it was another admin (whose name I won't mention) whose ego is so fragile that he will file away the supposed insult of having his edits challenged and make sure that the other editor is quickly got rid of, using his own little band of admin meatpuppets. Meowy 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Result concerning Baku87
This section is to be edited only by the administrator closing this request for arbitration enforcement. Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark it as closed.
Tom harrison
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Request concerning Tom harrison
- User requesting enforcement
- Unomi (talk) 01:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Tom harrison (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/September_11_conspiracy_theories
- Sanction or remedy that has been violated
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/September_11_conspiracy_theories#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy
- Introducing 9/11 deniers
Relabeling to conspiracy theorists incite to deletion on what he must know are specious grounds further incitement ignoring discussion inexplicable removal of link misrepresenting article
- Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue
- fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban
- Additional comments
- Tom harrison is well aware of the sanctions and restrictions surrounding this topic, as an admin he should be setting an example and follow the spirit of the guidelines and policies of wikipedia. There are 3 editors, Tom harrison, Verbal and Quack Guru who seem to fail to engage in constructive debate, instead resorting to low grade edit warring and starting multiple issues all at one time without trying to resolve them amicably or acknowledge when an issue has been resolved.
I am here singling out Tom harrison as I feel that he should be acting much more responsibly than what I have seen so far and seems to set a bad example for the 2 other editors. Considering the tendentious nature of his edits and his willingness to depart from NPOV as dictated by sources and collegial discussion I believe that a topic ban is in order.
Initially there was a merger discussion starting here which questioned the notability of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, I provided 9 [56] sources on the 30th of may (which became 7, but never mind) to establish separate notability of the group. But they have so far not been commented on, and Tom Harrison seems to actively ignore them and pushing ahead for a merge.
There was also a discussion when the term 9/11 deniers was introduced. So far analysis of RS show an almost 3 to 1 prevalence of 9/11 Truth movement opposed to 9/11 deniers. These sources or the logical consequence have not been disputed. Yet Tom Harrison and Quack Guru continue to change article text so as to not reflect common usage patterns.
Tom Harrison, user Verbal,verbal also continue to link A&E for truth to 9/11 conspiracy theories rather than the more precise and correct World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. When asked to discuss the replies were less than illuminating.
Even though he was aware of the discussion and the nature of the change he forged ahead. note the ES.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notified
Discussion concerning Tom harrison
I don't see a single bit of disruption on the part of Tom. This enforcement request is a complete joke. The user bringing the request can't even name a single policy or guideline that Tom has broken. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- There does seem to be something a little bit wrong with [[57]] edit. I had a look at the source, and the changes lower down made by Tom Harrison do seem to misrepresent the source. But I agree it seems excessive to call for enforcement. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- While I would probably tweak the edit, it's hardly evidence of disruption. It's pretty clear that this request is forum shopping. Unomi (talk · contribs) is trying to gain the upper hand in a content dispute. I suggest that Unomi refrains from waisting the community's time in the future. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment Ice Cold Beer is an involved editor, see my message on his talk page. Also note his bringing user Wowest here for notifying users of a merger discussion. Ignoring arguments in a discussion IS disruption. His actions are quite disruptive Unomi (talk) 03:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Would you please list a policy or guideline he has broken, and how he has broken it? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I actually took the trouble of clicking on the diffs provided, and Unomi owes me 5 minutes of my life back. I would strongly encourage anyone reviewing this request to look at the diffs, and then look at how Unomi presents them. Some are edits that I wouldn't have made, but are not abusive (e.g. [58]). Others are completely ordinary, everyday edits. Take a look at what Unomi calls "incite to deletion on what he must know are specious grounds". Horrifying, isn't it? Then there's "further incitement" (curious, since Tom explicitly says in the diff that he "sees no grounds to justify" deletion, but who bothers to read diffs)? The WTF capper is probably this diff, which Unomi captions "ignoring discussion". If this is the worst that can be dug up on Tom, then he deserves a barnstar for remaining constructive despite this sort of vexatious litigation, and Unomi should probably receive some gentle guidance on appropriate use of dispute resolution. MastCell Talk 03:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Intriguing, "further incitement" (curious that you should read I see grounds to justify it as explicitly says in the diff that he "sees no grounds to justify" deletion). The point is that he as an experienced admin should be decidedly better behaved. Consider the text of the discretionary sanctions regarding these articles :
“ | and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Wikipedia as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) | ” |
- I believe he has not only personally crossed the threshold but more importantly, that by virtue of his status he has enabled the continuation of improper behavior by editors who might have felt that as an admin he was setting an example to follow. I believe that if you took the time to see how the events unfolded you would be moved to agree. Unomi (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment I will respond in full in a few hours Unomi (talk) 05:03, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Most of Tom's edits cited by Unomi do not seem too far out of line to me. The particular edits cited do not seem to contribute much to a case against Tom. However, there have been other edits which I have found disturbing, and seemingly contradictory to WP:NPOV. One edit which I found particularly disturbing was this one. In my extensive readings about the 9/11 issue, I have yet to encounter a single instance of someone in a scientific capacity rejecting the claim that there are live explosives present in the dust of the WTC. So claiming that demolition is "widely rejected" seems a stretch, at least when examining the statements of scientifically qualified individuals who have evaluated the evidence in depth. Perhaps this claim is supported by the given reference. It's not easy for the typical reader to find out; as the article is (apparently) not available online. Unless one has a well-equipped library available (I do not), the article may only be available by subscribing to the journal or paying $18 to purchase the article. If it would help resolve the matter of whether or not Tom's edits are NPOV, I'll pay the $18 and find out what the article says. Wildbear (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- As with the report above, the diffs provided are not obviously problematic, at least not to the point of requiring discretionary sanctions. If the diffs represent a pattern of misconduct, the request fails to show this adequately. Indeed, the report is unhelpful by labeling what we must assume to be good faith talk page comments "incitements to deletion", as though deletion of a page were a crime, which it is not, and much less proposals to do so. Making talk page comments that others think are mistaken is not sanctionable. The content diffs provided seem to reflect mostly content disagreements and are, again, not sanctionable per se.
- I've now seen many non-actionable 9/11-related requests on this board – both by those who seem to want to present the subject favourably and by those who seem to want to present it unfavourably. All editors in this area, please remember that just disagreeing with you is not sanctionable, and do not report editors who merely disagree with you here. Please make reports only in cases where you can provide diffs that show a manifest pattern of disruption. WP:AE is not a substitute for dispute resolution. Sandstein 06:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I want to apologize if it seems like I am bringing this here because of a content dispute, that is not the case. I believe I am bringing to your attention behavioral issues which are disrupting efforts to improve an article. I am rather new to this sphere of articles and being faced with an environment that is utterly devoid of efforts of consensus building or plain You know, you were right about this one, whats your take on this then.. is quite depressing. From what I can see there is a small group of editors who consistently stonewall discussions, forcing it into a battleground scenario with low grade edit wars. Unomi (talk) 11:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- This has to be taken in the context of the wider discussion, are they blatant violations? No. But they do represent a disruption and an incitement for stonewalling and further waste of time and resources. Consider that there has not been *any* discussion regarding sources showing quite clearly a lack of preference for 9/11 deniers, consider that there has been zero discussion regarding the sources showing notability for keeping a stand alone article for AE for truth, although there has been slight movement on the latter today. I do not need to report Tom Harrison or anyone here to 'get an upper hand'; the arguments stand on their own quite well. The problem is that instead of arguing the case a small scale edit war has been started to force these patently partisan and unsupported terms and POVs through. While I agree that Tom harrisons edits taken on their own do not by themselves seem obviously disruptive, they are part a streak of tendentious editing untethered by engaging in discussion with coeditors.
Consider the edit war regarding linking to [[September 11 conspiracy theories rather than World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories.
- Verbal 2009-06-05 06:38
- Tom harrison 2009-06-04 12:26
- Verbal 2009-06-3 20:30
- A Quest For Knowledge 2009-06-02 03:22
- dougweller 2009-05-31 18:59
- verbal 2009-05-31 16:57
.
- Tom harris 2009-05-24 12:26 adds as an rs an opinion piece in the form of a review of a bbc documentary, the opinion piece itself has one (1) line regarding AE for truth.
.
- 2009-05-23 23:42 jehochman retains] link to World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories
- initial edit by jehochman 2009-05-23 23:41 linking to September 11 conspiracy theories
- somewhat contentious and unreferenced edit by jehochman
Since 2009-05-24 Sources have been requested : Please provide a URL for a "reliable source" which states that AE922truth is a "fringe group promoting a conspiracy theory." The response has simply been to try to make the case that non English sources are not admissible, clearly false.
There should *not* be an edit war over this, it is to call a spade a spade, beyond lame. Tom Harrison and the other editors and especially admins, who have been watching from the sidelines should have stepped in here. Unomi (talk) 09:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Should people who post such requests, ones that fail to show any disruption at all, be sanctioned? Verbal chat 09:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Consider the edit war over the term 9/11 deniers,
First introduced by verbal A Quest For Knowledge
I reverted his Verbals edit and started discussion on the talk page 2009-05-29. Please excuse the terse nature of my replies but I was at that point quite unimpressed. The answer was prompt but oblique.
- 2009-05-27 11:27 AQFK introduces 9/11 deniers to the article based at that point on 1 source with no prior discussion. It is hard to imagine that he would not foresee that this edit would be contested.
- 2009-05-27 23:22 I revert please note the argument in the ES.
- 2009-05-28 9:02 Verbal reintroduces 9/11 deniers, no mention in ES
- 2009-05-29 16:46 I revert, note again short explanation in ES, at this point I also start thread on talk page.
- 2009-05-29 17:11 Verbal reinserts 9/11 deniers *after* acknowledging talk thread.
- 2009-05-29 18:22 I revert and give warning that 3rd revert is reached and explain that I sense a lack of sources.
- 2009-05-29 18:25 AQFK reinstates 9/11 deniers.
- 2009-05-29 20:49 Wowest reverts and gives explanation in ES
- 2009-05-29 21:41 Tom Harrison reinserts 9/11 deniers, ignoring previous arguments and relies on specious reasoning.
- 2009-05-30 19:25 cs32en reverts
- 2009-05-30 20:09 Verbal reinserts 9/11 deniers
2009-05-30 20:17 IP 76. reverts
- 2009-05-30 20:23 Verbal reinserts 9/11 deniers
- 2009-05-30 20:25 IP 76. reverts
This was also a rather lame edit war, the end I believe came when confronted with the unsurprising fact that sources overwhelmingly show a lack of preference for 9/11 deniers over 9/11 Truth movement, regardless of their stance on the 9/11 truth movement in general. It is true that Tom harrison made only 1 reinsertion of 9/11 deniers, but considering the circumstance it is appalling that he would do so.
There are is another ongoing edit war regarding the interpretation of the following quote:
“ | Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11 (the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of evidence (i.e., controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the scope of our training and experience. | ” |
as well as the rather WP:IDHT nature of the merge 'discussion', but quite frankly I am tired. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unomi (talk • contribs) 11:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC) Unomi (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I notice that you have named several people above without notifying them. I see that my contribution to this 'edit war' (which seems to be you against virtually everyone else) was a revert with the edit summary "no reason given for removal of cited text." I'm not convinced at all that it is Tom Harrison that should be sanctioned here, if anyone should be. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I did not mean to be this case be about anyone else directly, I believe that as an admin he should have stepped in and that he should have a particular clear sense of proper decorum. Unomi (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- To correct one of Unomi's many mistakes, I did not introduce the language 9/11 deniers, and the source was introduced by a pro"9/11 truth" editor (for want of a better term), not in order to denigrate their view as claimed by Unomi. I have not edit warred, and my edits have been supported by talk page discussion and sources. Unomi seems to have problems with consensus and civil discussion. Verbal chat 12:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- You are quite right, you did not initially introduce the term 9/11 deniers, I have edited my comment above to reflect the timeline shown by the diffs immediately following. I am a fairly recent arrival at the article and I honestly do not know who first introduced the source to the article or why. The fact remains that the source was used initially as the sole supporting 'evidence' for why 9/11 deniers should be used. I would rather avoid entering into a content discussion here, but.. either '9/11 deniers' and '9/11 truth movement' refer to the same thing or they do not. If they do refer to the same, then, I believe, that wikipedia chooses the most prevalent name as a rule. If they do not refer to the same then it would be folly to use it as a moniker for 9/11 truth movement. If you have not edit warred then you managed an artful job of convincing me that you did. I would appreciate if you would point out further mistakes of mine. Regards, Unomi (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- To correct one of Unomi's many mistakes, I did not introduce the language 9/11 deniers, and the source was introduced by a pro"9/11 truth" editor (for want of a better term), not in order to denigrate their view as claimed by Unomi. I have not edit warred, and my edits have been supported by talk page discussion and sources. Unomi seems to have problems with consensus and civil discussion. Verbal chat 12:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I did not mean to be this case be about anyone else directly, I believe that as an admin he should have stepped in and that he should have a particular clear sense of proper decorum. Unomi (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment Tom harrison (talk · contribs) has tried to introduce "9/11 deniers" in the lead of 9/11 Truth movement at 22:17, June 5, 2009 (aka Truthers, 9/11 deniers, citations), although he must have been aware at that point that multiple reliable sources not only call the movement "9/11 Truth movement", but actually say that the movement is being called "9/11 Truth movement" (list of sources given at the talk page). No reliable sources have been found so far that would say the movement, or adherents of the movement, are being called "9/11 deniers".
The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, Vanity Fair and Skeptic say that the movement is known as the "9/11 Truth movement", the Financial Times, the Daily Telegraph, the National Post and KSL TV say that is is being described as or being called the "9/11 Truth movement".
I have corrected this edit for now, and I hope that Tom harrison (talk · contribs) will refrain from similar edits in the future. Cs32en 12:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- What's happening is you are persistently reverting to remove the words "9/11 denier", in spite of the citations to the term, and in spite of my changes to accomodate your concerns - "referred to as "Truthers" and occasionally as "9/11 deniers"." Of the two citations I added, one is Farhad Manjoo's article in Salon, titled "The 9/11 deniers". The other citation (and it's one of several others, as you know very well because I put them all on the talk page several days ago) also mentioning the term is to The Sunday Times. So you revert again, removing the references, and then come here to complain? Amazing. I'm inclined to support a topic ban of myself just to get away from it all. Tom Harrison Talk 13:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Result concerning Tom harrison
Content dispute, not actionable. Unomi is cautioned against using WP:AE in lieu of dispute resolution. Sandstein 13:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Comments posted after closure
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- I just became aware of this thread. My name was invoked but nobody notified me at the time. I reuqest that Unomi's warning be logged at WP:ARB911 if not done already and they be advised how to improve their work in this area (e.g. proper use of dispute resolution). The case has formal requirements. Jehochman Talk 14:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- The only way that we could defend changing 9/11 truth movement to 9/11 denier wholesale would be if sources show a prevalence of that term, the edit you provided is from around 40 minutes ago and to the best of my recollection is the first time you have used 'occasionally as'. I don't know which sources you believe I have removed, please point out where I did that. Yes on the talk page a list of sources was created to show relative prevalence of each term; 10 sources were provided (albeit without urls for verification) that employed '9/11 deniers', 28 sources were provided that used '9/11 truth movement'. Since then there has been no discussion. Although I must say that this is rather creative. Another long thread trying to convince AQFK that WP:NEO does not apply to '9/11 truth movement', one which Tom, you should have weighed in on. Unomi (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Jehochman, I do not think that any logging is necessary, since the arbitration page only contains a log of "blocks, bans, and restrictions", of which none have been issued here. – Unomi, Jehochman is right, please stop discussing this here, or you may be made subject to restrictions. This thread is now definitively closed, I hope. Sandstein 18:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
These comments here should be moved inside the archive box, probably in a section "Comments posted after the case has been closed", so that it's clear that no further comments should be made here. As far as I see, Unomi placed his comment outside the box, in order to avoid confusion about the status of his comment with regard to the closing of the case. Unfortunately, this seems to have been understood as an attempt to continue the discussion. Cs32en 19:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Deacon of Pndapetzim
Shahin Giray
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Shahin Giray
- User requesting enforcement
- Grandmaster 05:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Shahin Giray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2
- Sanction or remedy that has been violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy
- These are reverts on just one article made yesterday: [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] Generally, most of edits by this account consist of reverts and removal of sourced info from Azerbaijan related articles: [96]
- Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue
- edit warring
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban, revert parole
- Additional comments
- Shahin Giray contribs almost exclusively consist of edit warring on the articles about Azerbaijani khanates. He started editing in January this year, and instantly began deleting the info and sources he did not like. When someone tried to restore the info he deleted, he edit warred, claiming that he reverted vandalism. [97] [98] [99] [100] Then he disappeared on 9 February, and reemerged on 29 May, resuming edit wars on the same set of articles (Karabakh Khanate, Khanate of Nakhichevan, Khanate of Erevan, Blue Mosque, Yerevan). [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] For the most part his edits consist of removal of Azerbaijani and Turkish spellings from the articles, information from reliable sources that the khanates in Caucasus were independent from Persia, Azerbaijani history and other Azerbaijan related templates, etc. I suspect that Shahin Giray is someone who was previously banned from editing. I notified him that the articles he edit wars on are the arbitration covered area: [106], but he chose to ignore the warning. Grandmaster 05:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [107]
Discussion concerning Shahin Giray
Shahin Giray's account seems odd to me. The earliest edit shows he was already familiar with basic markup by that time. In subsequent edits like [108] he switched to AA issue and then addressed St. Hubert (talk · contribs) with this strange post. Here he reverted the so-called vandalism. brandt 06:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, he claims to be a Crimean Tatar, but pushes pro-Iranian POV, speaks farsi, but no Turkish. Strange, isn't it? Grandmaster 06:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- The part of his edit's Im familiar with, are even more acceptable than your ones. You're adding some dubious info without any explanations, and are pushing obvious POV that goes against AA2. You never justified (with any RS's or any Wikipedia rules) the usage of Azeri terms for these khanates, while everyone knows the languages used there were diferrent, included the Turkic one, but no "Azeri terms" existed in that period. So be more active at the talks and you will see Shahin Giray's justifications there, as well as mine and Babakexorramdin's [109]. I think such problems are rising because of your usual absence at talks to explain your reverts despite of their dubious nature. Gazifikator (talk) 08:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've followed this fairly closely, and I must say that User:Grandmaster and User:Brandmeister are pushing a revisionist/fringe point of view on these Khanate pages, cherry-picking and misinterpreting random sources that use the words "independent" or "independence", taking the words out of context to claim that these Khanates were somehow independent nation states (Azerbaijani nation-building historical narrative). When in reality, the academic sources who discuss the issue in detail, make it clear that these Khanates were merely provinces and vassals of the Iranian shah with some degree of independence. For example, Muriel Atkin clearly states that "khan could act within certain independence, he was vassal of the Iranian shah". --Kurdo777 (talk) 11:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree on this with Kurdo777. The sources tell us that these Khanates were Iranian territory with varying degrees of autonomy and self-rule in different times. However I should add that grandmaster is more consistent and reliable in his edits than Branmeister, whose edits closely resemble vandalism, because he removes sources and rephrase, or misquote the citations according to his taste.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- According to checkuser, Kurdo777 (talk · contribs) is a sock account, please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tajik. I suspect that Shahin Giray also has a connection with the same puppetmaster. I think it is time that the admins take measures to stop this system gaming. Grandmaster 11:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- CU does not say Kurdo777 is a sock account, these are your words and interpretation of what is written there! Let's assume a little bit more good faith and be civil. According to the Wikpedia rules, socks must be blocked, and everyone, who were not blocked yet (including you, Kurdo777 and all, all), are free to discuss their views here and to not be called "socks" as there is a specialized page for such accusations. Gazifikator (talk) 11:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- CU listed his account with "currently available technical evidence indicates the following accounts are related". brandt 12:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Related to whom? I am nobody's sock account, the accounts listed as "related" to me, are merely my alternative accounts used on different topics, which should not have been revealed by the CU in the first place. I've already raised the issue with the admin who conducted the CU. --Kurdo777 (talk) 12:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- CU listed his account with "currently available technical evidence indicates the following accounts are related". brandt 12:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- CU does not say Kurdo777 is a sock account, these are your words and interpretation of what is written there! Let's assume a little bit more good faith and be civil. According to the Wikpedia rules, socks must be blocked, and everyone, who were not blocked yet (including you, Kurdo777 and all, all), are free to discuss their views here and to not be called "socks" as there is a specialized page for such accusations. Gazifikator (talk) 11:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Kurdo777 turned out to be a sock of the banned user and is blocked indef: [114] Grandmaster 14:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Update: I don't know is this request against Shahin, or Kurdo777, but anyways Kurdo777 is unblocked [115]. Gazifikator (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, since there's not enough evidence that Kurdo777 is banned user Beh-nam, the admins decided to extend a good faith to this editor and unblock his main account, while his 10 socks were blocked. Still, considering his edit warring on Azerbaijan related articles, in addition to sockery, I believe placing this user on a revert limitation would be appropriate. Grandmaster 04:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Update: I don't know is this request against Shahin, or Kurdo777, but anyways Kurdo777 is unblocked [115]. Gazifikator (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Result concerning Shahin Giray
This section is to be edited only by the administrator closing this request for arbitration enforcement. Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark it as closed.
Alastair Haines
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Request concerning Alastair Haines
- User requesting enforcement
- Kaldari (talk) 17:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Alastair Haines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arbitration case whose sanctions are to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Alastair Haines
- Sanction or remedy that has been violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Alastair Haines#Alastair_Haines_restricted
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy
- Blanking (without discussion) well-referenced, well-discussed, NPOV sections: [116][117]; Not adhering to 1 revert per week per article restriction: [118][119][120][121][122]; Uncivil personal attacks: [123]
- Explanation how these edits violate the sanction or remedy at issue
- The first two diffs show blatantly disruptive editing on an article Alastair has been edit warring on for years (see Talk:Patriarchy and archives). This violates part 2 of his restriction. The next 3 diffs show 3 reverts on one article over 25 hours. This violates part 1 of his restriction. The next 2 diffs show 2 reverts on one article over 4 days. This also violates part 1 of his restriction. The last diff shows a personal attack against a fellow editor. This violates part 3 of his restriction.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Per the terms of Alastair's RfA, and considering that he is a repeat offender (See Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions and Block log), I would like to request that Alastair be blocked from editing for one month and that he be banned indefinitely from all articles related to patriarchy. I have elected not to enforce these terms myself since I am an involved editor.
- Additional comments
- The examples in this request represent only a small sample of the seemingly endless disruption, edit warring, and wiki-lawyering engaged in by Alastair — none of which has been phased by his previous RfA. I wasn't sure if filing another RfA would be a better idea than seeking remedy here, but I've decided to try this first as the easier solution. I don't know why the previous RfA (which is less than a year old) was blanked by ArbCom. If this means it is void, I'll go ahead and file a new RfA. If it is not void, I would like to request that it be unblanked.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [124]
Discussion concerning Alastair Haines
Just a simple question -- why are we being shown actions that took place six months ago? Dougweller (talk) 18:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Because I agreed back then not to make an issue of it if he would try adhering to the conditions of the RfA. As the other diffs illustrate (all of which are from the past week), this didn't happen. If those diffs are too old to be relevent, I'll be happy to remove them. I was just picking the low-hanging fruit. The request is still valid without any of the older diffs. For the record: 4 of the diffs above are from the past week, 3 of them are from back in December (although no action was taken on them at the time). Kaldari (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- The first two diffs presented do not delineate ideal editorial practice—one would not expect sections of an article to be blanked without serious cause; that an editor does not have time presently to rewrite the section could certainly not be so categorised—but they do not of themselves give reason to believe there is a wide pattern of disruption. The next three diffs are, as above, quite outdated, and I'm reluctant to take action on them without a wider and current pattern of disruption being illustrated. It is the final two diffs that concern me: with this and that revert falling within one week of one another, a violation of the 1RR restriction in place against Alastair Haines 1RR restriction (view here to circumvent courtesy blanking) has certainly been committed. My disposition to leniency would have me leaning towards closing this thread with only a reminder to Alastair to be exceedingly careful of not violating his 1RR restriction in spirit and in letter. However, I am mindful that complaints to this board are considered to be not ordinarily treated with leniency, and so I would invite further input from administrators and others on whether a block by way of enforcement of the Committee's decision would be warranted. AGK 19:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- One of those sections should not have been edited, period, much less blanked, without discussion on the talk page as it had been the subject of edit warring previously (involving Alastair). See [125], [126], [127], [128]. Kaldari (talk) 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also, I don't think showing a "wide pattern of disruption" should be necessary for enforcement. That's what the RfA was for. What good is the previous RfA's sanctions if I have to build an entirely new case in order to realize effective intervention? Kaldari (talk) 20:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with AGK that the December edits are not actionable any more. But I consider the first two edits to Patriarchy provided by Kaldari to be disruptive for the purposes of his restriction, and I agree that the last two edits violate Alastair Haines's 1RR/week restriction. Accordingly, and because I am not afflicted with a disposition to leniency, I am of a mind to indefinitely ban Alastair Haines from editing Patriarchy and block him for two weeks (twice the duration of his most recent arbitration enforcement block of 21 March 2009). Sandstein 20:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- A few additional comments: Kaldari is right that a pattern of disruption is not required to trigger the sanctions provided for in the arbitral decision; isolated incidents of disruption suffice. As to the ArbCom case, I understand it to have been courtesy-blanked, but not voided in substance. A request to unblank it should be directed to the Committee, not to this board. Sandstein 20:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- On patterns of disruption: My word choice there was perhaps misleading. For "no pattern of disruption has been illustrated", read "no problem of sufficient seriousness to be actionable has been illustrated" (if that's in any way more clear, which it probably isn't).
On Sandstein's proposal: Saddeningly—as the majority of Alastair's contributions to that article have been constructive—I find myself being in agreement with your suggestion to issue a topic ban. As a rule, I don't think indefinite restrictions are helpful, however, and I would like to see some limit put on the length of his ban from Patriarchy.
AGK 20:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I think a ban from the Patriarchy article (at the least) would be extremely useful. That article has been unable to achieve any semblance of NPOV since Alastair first became involved with it 2 years ago. He has driven away any other editors interested in working on it. Kaldari (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- "Indefinite" does not mean "infinite", but you are of course right, AGK, in that it could be difficult to establish at which point in time the ban is no longer required. A year-long page ban should do. Sandstein 21:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- [Multiple edit conflicts. To Kaldari, before he removed "BTW, it looks like you may have meant to use the word "nonconstructive" rather than "constructive" above". Replying here for clarity and as a lead to my main point.]
Hmm, nope, I meant to say "constructive". I find, with only a couple of exceptions, all of Alastair's contributions to the article from the beginning of June 2009 'till today to be non-controversial and constructive. He's also handled himself well on the article talk page. The 1RR violation and a few other changes have simply let him down—and, sadly, there is little room for error on his part, what with the Committee sanctions in place against him.
[Edit conflict reply to Sandstein.] Indefinite doesn't mean infinite, no, but it does mean "without defined length"—which is what I, on a matter of personal opinion, have an objection to.
AGK 21:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Further comment to Sandstein: Is there any substantial reason to not elect for a 6 month topic ban? If not, could we go with that? By choice, I would have any sanction being as short in length as possible whilst still effectively neutralising the problem it is intended to remedy. AGK 21:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but did you actually look at the edits that he made from the beginning of June 2009 until today? Here's the diff. It basically amounts to blanking most of the article and then rewriting the lead to suggest that men "suffer" the "responsibility" of patriarchy. Even if these edits were amenable to other editors (they're not), I don't see how they could be construed as "constructive". And that's not even mentioning the previous 2 years of low-level edit warring on that article that is well documented on the talk page. Kaldari (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also the issue of whether or not any form of matriarchy has ever existed (which was part of the lead edits recently made by Alastair) is certainly controversial and was the source of previous edit wars as well. The only reason no one immediately objected is because all the other editors (myself included) had been driven away from the article. On the surface, Alastair's edits may seem innocuous enough, but if you dig into the article history and talk page, you will see they are part of a very long, low-level war to push his particular POV on the article. Considering how long he's been at it, and his practice of simply waiting until other editors give up and leave, I'm sure Alastair would have no problem waiting 6 months and starting the whole process over again, to the detriment of Wikipedia. Indeed, he seems to have already moved his efforts to related articles. See Patriarchy in feminism, Universality of patriarchy, The Inevitability of Patriarchy, Why Men Rule, etc. Indeed, just look through his contrib log from the past week. Kaldari (talk) 21:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- On patterns of disruption: My word choice there was perhaps misleading. For "no pattern of disruption has been illustrated", read "no problem of sufficient seriousness to be actionable has been illustrated" (if that's in any way more clear, which it probably isn't).
- I wasn't aware of this. I'm not the person to judge, since it was directed at me, but this strikes me as falling within the purview of the "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith", and for that matter, so does this. Guettarda (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Alastair's MO seems to be to slowly provoke other editors to the point of exasperation, and then once they respond emotionally, completely dismiss them. You can see him doing the exact same thing over at Talk:The Inevitability of Patriarchy.[129] Kaldari (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- And apparently, he's still insulting me on the patriarchy talk page, even though I completely left that article back in December: "Kaldari clearly doesn't know what he's talking about..."-24 May 2009, "Kaldari's good contributions elsewhere are no excuse for poor behaviour here..."-25 May 2009. This is 5 months after I stopped participating at that article! That's what you get if you try to improve any articles he has an interest in: endless tiny insults (or back-handed compliments if you're lucky). Kaldari (talk) 22:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Kaldari has just invited me to join this discussion.
- At some point I shall read it and make further comment.
- At the moment I simply recommend it be closed quickly, removed and oversighted.
- My reputation as an editor is flawless.
- If there is supposed to be any evidence to the contrary, that should be submitted to me for consideration directly.
- I take personal attacks against my real name very seriously, and have made very clear that they will not be tolerated.
- Kaldari's wilful actions to, yet again, attempt to publically discredit me should probably be actioned, but I am not a vindictive man.
- Shame on people! After refusing to deal with non-contributors blocking sourced text by edit warring at Gender of God, you now refuse to deal with an emotional tag bomber, and try to twist things against me.
- I have attempted way and above the call of duty to give room to processes to make these mistakes.
- Check your facts!
- There is room for Kaldari to have personal opinions regarding Goldberg's work. He is clearly aware of unfortunate statements by ArbCom in the past, and is taking advantage, and has taken advantage of them to obstruct work at patriarchy and at Steven Goldberg. Instead of correcting a tag bomber, he's decided to support a tenuous case, giving good faith Guettarda misleading impressions.
- I'll get back to reading discussion above at some later point, perhaps. It should not be necessary. It is not my responsibility to clean up other people's political errors. I'm hear to work in article space, and that is what I'll stick to.
- Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'd have to agree with much of what Sanstein said and would support the article ban. Once an editor gets to the point of Arb sanctions, especially those specifically directed, there's no need to show further patterns. I personally prefer indefinite restrictions once things reach this level since they require a contributor to show a change instead of simply setting them loose at an arbitrary date, but a sufficiently lengthy ban would at least provide some relief and time for reflection. Given that similar behavior seems to be a problem at The Inevitability of Patriarchy, it might be prudent to consider a topic ban here. As AGK said, its very unfortunate since Alastair can clearly do excellent work in the area but since he's consistently shown an inability to work with others in that particular topic area, its best that he focus his efforts elsewhere. Shell babelfish 03:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Result concerning Alastair Haines
The evidence and the discussion show that Alastair Haines has been disruptive at least in the article and likely the entire topic area of patriarchy, and that he has violated his 1RR restriction. His singularly unconstructive contribution to this thread, in which he personally attacks the reporting editor but does not address the issues raised with respect to his conduct, leads me to believe that his disruption will continue over the entire topic area if unchecked. His comment here is also the reason why I believe a longer rather than a shorter ban is necessary.
Taking into account this and the comments in the discussion above, I sanction Alastair Haines as follows under the terms of his restriction: he is blocked for two weeks and topic-banned from editing patriarchy and all related pages (including discussions), broadly interpreted, for a year. Sandstein 05:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)