SMcCandlish (talk | contribs) →Paul Siebert: cmt |
GPRamirez5 (talk | contribs) →Statement by GPRamirez5: This complaint is baseless. It was brought by a tendentious editor who does not respect NPOV, RS, or AGF himself, and it's time to boomerang. Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit |
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*The space limitations do not allow me to present all evidences, however, I can do that in a separate place if arbitrators decided that that case deserves their attention. --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 22:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
*The space limitations do not allow me to present all evidences, however, I can do that in a separate place if arbitrators decided that that case deserves their attention. --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 22:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
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====Statement by GPRamirez5==== |
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I regret that I don't have more time to write testimony and assemble evidence right now, but I stand by the ANI case I brought against MVBW, and I second everything that has been said here in Paul Siebert's defense. [[User:GPRamirez5|GPRamirez5]] ([[User talk:GPRamirez5|talk]]) 16:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (--[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 13:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC))==== |
====Statement by (--[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 13:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC))==== |
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Revision as of 16:29, 21 June 2018
Calton
Calton is assumed to be aware that because of their previous blocks for incivility, there's going to be increased scrutiny of their posts. They are advised to remember this and use a more neutral tone in their posts and edit summaries to get their point across. --NeilN talk to me 11:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Calton
Repeated personal attacks in edits to American Politics articles:
Many previous blocks for personal attacks and incivility [13]
Despite many warnings and blocks editor is unwilling to refrain from personal attacks.
Discussion concerning CaltonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CaltonI can already see where this is going, so I'll only say a few things, unless otherwise required.
This is all I care to respond to unless necessary. --Calton | Talk 02:19, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Maybe it's not directly a matter for this page and maybe it's just me, but does anyone else find this entire conversation just a tad suspicious? --Calton | Talk 06:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC) Addendum: Given @Sandstein:'s comments, I'd again urge him to take a look at this entire conversation on D.Creish's talk page. --Calton | Talk 13:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC) @GoldenRing:: I'm also not seeing the equivalence between an account with a clean block log who has made one uncivil remark and an account with a log as long as your arm covering 10+ years with 10+ diffs of recent incivility that would lead to equal sanctions. If the block log is your only measure, then you really really haven't been paying attention to the conversation. Look above your comments for some context. --Calton | Talk 13:56, 15 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Dave DialMost of the links given by D.Creish are of Calton rightly making sure some of the articles concerning or about white supremacists/neo-nazis/racists remain NPOV, without obvious whitewashing. Some edits reverted were ips, obvious sock accounts or throw aways. If anything, D.Creish should be topic banned. One of his examples he writes:In the NPR source it states: The edits of D.Creish and the editors he is defending really speak for themselves. This is absolutely an attempt to rid these articles of editors that know the subject so they can more easily be whitewashed. Dave Dial (talk) 23:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOI urge Admins here to take a close look at the DCreish account's history and behavior on Wikipedia. Here is his editing history profile [17] This ID has few edits, but an extraordinarily high proportion of aggressive AE, AN, and other noticeboard complaints, and what I evaluate as aggressive and uncivil POV editing and wikilawyering. This is a NOTHERE account, in my opinion. SPECIFICO talk 12:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved SMcCandlishI would urge caution. There is a MEATy campaign going on to white-wash the articles of far-right, alt-right, white-nationalist, white-supremacist [which are not quite the same thing, despite considerable overlap], and neo-Nazi [ditto] subjects. It's not surprising that an editor with a bit of a WP:HOTHEAD past can be successfully baited by a round-robin tagteam of sockpuppets and trolls into losing their temper momentarily. There's a good chance this is an actual goal: game the system to thin the opposition and take ownership of the articles. I agree with comments below that imposing lengthy blocks and bans on long-term contributors who are actually trying to follow the core content policies in the face of a wave of PoV-pushing is neither going to be a constructive result nor going to go over well. It's excessive legalism in an editorial community that's trying to produce and publish quality content, not set up as moot court or a political simulation game. Our rules exist to serve us, not the other way around. And it's more important that the reader-facing content rules be followed closely than than editor-to-editor conduct rules be applied too narrowly, especially when many of the "editors" who maybe got their feelings hurt are bogus and had it coming. [Disclaimer of sorts: As far as I know, I have no significant involvement at any of the articles under discussion, nor with any of the editors under discussion. However, I have dealt with similar bullshit at various articles covered by WP:ARBR&I, WP:ARBAA2, etc., so I know exactly what's going on here, and have been subjected to similar antics by the nebulous PoV-pushing crowd on these issues.] — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JantheHansenI tentative agree with Goldenring about the non-equivalance between the two, one of who has been rude to others for so many years. The least we can ask for against the rude user is an indefinite civil restriction like The Rambling Man and no, this thread is of controversial nature that'll take countless behind-the scenes discussions for a resolution so it's not expected be quickly closed. JantheHansen (talk) 07:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC) Result concerning Calton
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Rafe87
Closing as no action. If people feel that the Yaniv's actions merit further looking into at AE, they can file a new request. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:37, 15 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Rafe87
Discussion concerning Rafe87Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rafe87Statement by power~enwikiProcedurally, as the first two diffs are consecutive, they only count as a single diff for 1RR purposes. While a gap of 23.5 hours between reverts does violate 1RR here, if there's no larger pattern here a warning should be sufficient. Largely thanks to Rafe87's lack of edit summaries, it's not immediately obvious whether these edits are reverts. The first diff is clearly a revert based on יניב הורון's evidence (and the second diff can be considered part of that); but the last one does not add the middleeasteye reference, and in fact removes an addition by Erictheenquirer. It's hard for me to see how two reverts, 23.5 hours apart, one adding a source and another removing that same source, should justify anything other than a warning to be extremely conscientious editing in this controversial area. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by NableezyThe reverts by יניב הורון (talk · contribs · logs) across a range of articles should be looked at. But at this article Ill just note that the complainant here has made four edits at this article, all reverts, and exactly zero edits at the talk page. A look at their contributions will quickly demonstrate this user is strictly a revert warrior. Would be happy to expand on that if invited to do so. But at this article specifically an admin should look at who is drive-by edit-warring without even attempting to collaborate on the talk page. nableezy - 04:42, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by TheGracefulSlickThe filer not-so-ironically has been more disruptive at the article. Here he removed the Middle East Eye source; he was reverted and could have contributed to a talk page discussion. Instead, he waited and reverted again without discussion, this time calling it "propaganda". As Nableezy said, this editor is strictly a revert warrior and has not learned from past reports against himself. At Quds Day for instance, he has replaced a long-standing image without consensus three times [21][22][23], oddly citing an ongoing discussion that has no consensus. In a small twist, he actually engaged in discussion, but wrote a heinous, in my opinion, blockable personal attack: "Says the guy who comes from a country where dissidents are hanged in cranes". If BOOMERANG can be applied to AE, there is no better time than now.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by IcewhizI want to note that the Middle East Eye is a very borderline source, and probably not a RS (see RSN discussion). It is definitely not a source that should be used on a contentious subject that has been widely covered by mainstream media - removing this source was entirely within policy, and frankly adding (or reverting by Rafe87 - [24]) material based on a such source is quite questionable.Icewhiz (talk) 15:39, 13 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by יניב הורון@TonyBallioni: Sorry for the off-topic, but what TheGracefulSlick apparently "forgot" to mention is that this comment I made was a response to a previous personal attack by Expectant of Light (quote: ...It's not Israel here where you have your opponents either shut up or shot up!). My contributions speek for themselves. As for my previous mistakes, I was already sanctioned for them, despite some editors keep talking about them (while trying to invent new reports based on spurious reasons). I'm confident that you are an honest administrator who can investigate the matter by yourself without being influenced by users who are obsessed with banning me for political reasons. Thanks.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 20:17, 13 June 2018 (UTC) @Zero0000: This POV aberration of yours was a "mistake" or intentional? That's one example of many. You are the least appropriate to judge my edits.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 03:21, 15 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Expectant of Light regarding -יניב הורוןI was notified on this talk by -יניב הורון but I want to confirm a complaint by Nabzeely that -יניב הורון engages in revert wars on other pages, often citing irrelevant reasons in his explanations or reverting many edits while citing only one truly problematic edit. A recent example can be found on the Houthis. He reverts an edit claiming the source is a blog, then when reverted back explaining that the source is not a blog but a very reliable source , then reverts again this time claiming it's an opinion whereas the author is an high ranking expert named Bruce Riedel Statement by Zero0000In this AE case less than a week ago, יניב_הורון was "warned to be extremely careful with their reverts. Any future violations may result in more severe sanctions than usual given the editor's past history in this area." Mention was made of יניב_הורון's habit of making repeated "mistakes" that always seemed to match his POV. I'd like to mention this "mistake" only a day ago in which יניב_הורון removed text on the grounds "not supported by source" even though it consisted of direct quotations from the sources. As other people have written here, יניב_הורון is the paradigm edit warrior with no redeeming features. Zerotalk Result concerning Rafe87
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SPECIFICO
No action taken, but SPECIFICO is advised to use more caution going forward. Awilley's advice to everyone below is also sound. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:23, 15 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
In normal circumstances, I would have given SPECIFICO a chance to self-revert, but given the numerous warnings she recently received in the AP2 area, a closer examination by the DS/AE board is warranted. — JFG talk 13:42, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
diff [26] Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICOSimple error. We generally don't file such AE complaints about an obvious error before posting a friendly warning on the perp's talk page. At any rate I self-reverted and replied to OP on my talk page. [27]. SPECIFICO talk 15:10, 14 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by NomoskedasticityJGF apparently missed the bit where Specifico already self-reverted: [28]. Hard to fathom, no? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by WinkelviWhile SPECIFICO did revert herself, the revert didn't occur until more than an hour after her original reversion (that went over 1RR) and a half hour after this report was filed. That doesn't seem like an "Oops, I forgot about 1RR" error to me where she would try to honestly correct her error on her own volition. An hour later seems like damage control to me. It should also be pointed out that she didn't revert and then leave her computer or Wikipedia to do something else, then return to see the notice JFG left on her talk page; she performed two edits after the 2RR [29] [30]. All this considered, she absolutely did violate the 1RR rule for that article, the bright line was crossed, and I believe she knew it and didn't act until she was caught. It's not as if she's not well aware of the 1RR restriction at that article. Anyone who regularly edits there knows it. SPECIFICO is a regular editor at the article (116 edits since 10/3/16) and at the article's talk page (684 edits since 12/11/16). -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:13, 15 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Objective3000Winkelvi: Statement by NetoholicIn SPECIFICO's own words:
I am uninvolved with the Trump article. -- Netoholic @ 04:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
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TheGracefulSlick
Withdrawn |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning TheGracefulSlick
Only today he have broke 1RR [33]
User today created the article and used the word "terrorist" his orignal edit was reverted and he restored the usage of "terrorist" once again The policy is quite clear on this ". If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit." As he original author of the article he have to wait 24 hours especially if it was created today. Also the user seem can't grasp 1RR he have history of not adhering to the rule for example: [35] [36] [37] @TGS Becouse you doesn't seem to grasp 1RR.--Shrike (talk) 20:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TheGracefulSlickStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TheGracefulSlickI did not realize the creation of the article counted as the "first" edit. Why could you not discuss this at my talk page, Shrike?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning TheGracefulSlick
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Talatastan
Talatastan indefinitely blocked, first year under arbitration enforcement. --NeilN talk to me 02:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Talatastan
User doesn't care about ARBPIA restrictions. As soon as the sanction expires, he comes back to edit the same articles. An indefinite block might be necessary.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TalatastanStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TalatastanStatement by (username)Result concerning Talatastan
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Netoholic
There is consensus to decline this appeal. GoldenRing (talk) 08:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by NetoholicMy edits to COIN were in no way disruptive. Seconding the concern of another editor's report and asking for uninvolved editors to look into that concern is the whole point of having a Noticeboard. In essence, every Noticeboard discussion involves an existing dispute of one form or another, and this warning has a chilling effect on my ability to participate if I am to fear a block every time I post about a concern. TonyBallioni was petitioned directly to enact this block, and I was given no opportunity for uninvolved admins to evaluate whether my post was disruptive at all, as such a concern is normally brought to AE first. The person who asked for this block had a previous AE request closed with no action, and that's why I suspect they petitioned Tony directly instead today. Per discussion about this warning with TonyBallioni, he and others provided extensive clarification that the warning was to encourage me to "think twice before submitting reports that the rest of the community would think should not be resolved through admin boards" and should NOT be thought of as a TBAN. --Netoholic @ 21:38, 17 June 2018 Statement by TonyBallioniIn my view Netoholic used COIN inappropriately and disruptively and clearly against the spirit of the warning they had previously about use of the administrative processes here on Wikipedia to further disputes with other editors. It resulted after this thread, in which a new user made a retaliatory COIN filing against MrX. It was closed by Jytdog, a COIN regular, because COIN doesn't deal with NPOV issues and there was no evidence at all that an established user. Netoholic then posted under it conflating NPOV with COI issues (which we recently saw with the Andrevan saga) and then implying that MrX might have created a promotional article [55].This is simply not how COIN works, occurred after a regular at the board had closed it, and was aspersion without evidence made against one AP2 regular against another in a thread initially about American politics. As MrX had noted, they were already in a dispute elsewhere and this seems like a clear use of a board mainly used to fight spam to deal with someone they were in conflict with on AP2. Tryptofish closed it again, and Netoholic commented again. This was reverted by Dave Dial [56] (against TPO, but a possible application of IAR and the edit summary summed up basic practice at COIN.)This was reverted by Netoholic still insiting on his COI concern (unclear if he was referencing cryptocurrency or politics). Looking at his contributions and based on the fact that he should have known better than to use COIN for these purposes after the warning and after three editors had told him such, I blocked him for 72 hours to prevent further disruption at COIN and because of the battleground behavior he was displaying in the topic area. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MrXNetoholic made this unsavory post a WP:COIN as an unprovoked retaliation for my edit on Ideological bias on Wikipedia, following up to his assumption of bad faith here. He then edit warred with three other editors who intervened attempting to put out the fire. TonyBallioni's block was both reasonable and proportionate given Netoholic's recent battleground conduct.[58] - MrX 🖋 22:31, 17 June 2018 (UTC), 22:41, 17 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by DlthewaveOne more example of Netoholic's misuse of noticeboards is a recent spurious post at BLPN. After multiple editors rejected the BLP concerns and directed Netoholic to the NPOV and RS noticeboards, they continued to raise non-BLP concerns, culminating with this critique of another editor's recent contributions. The block seems appropriate given their seeming inability to take a hint. –dlthewave ☎ 23:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JzGI advocate declining this appeal. Netoholic appears to me to be in violation of the Law of Holes. Guy (Help!) 23:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishIf anything, a 72-hour block is rather lenient. Not only did Netoholic unambiguously violate the previous warning from Tony, but he edit warred over it. And not only did he do that, but, just since the previous AE filing, he has made himself into a huge time-sink for the community at multiple pages, some of which have already been pointed out above (don't say I didn't warn you). He has edit warred against consensus at Political views of American academics (AP2), [59], and at Neil Gross (AP2 and BLP), to make deliberate BLP violations denigrating Gross, [60], [61], [62], in an attempt to discredit an inconvenient source at the political views page – where a content RfC is going overwhelmingly against him and he seems to be setting up an attempt to argue that the community consensus is invalid for when it closes, [63]. In each case, multiple editors have been telling him that he is acting against consensus: [64], [65], [66]. And here's the bottom line: he doesn't get it and is pretty much telling us that he will take up right from where he left off once the block ends. There is nothing in his appeal statement that acknowledges having learned anything or indicating that he will try to do better in the future. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: Thank you very much. Personally, I agree with the sanction as you have written it. If I were to take into consideration the concerns by Sandstein and Tony about the complexity, then I would simply make it a topic ban from AP2 and BLP, subject to appeal after not less than x months. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
(Lionelt's statement sounds to me like mooning the jury, which is probably obvious, but I think this: [67], gives it a little context, and not necessarily in a good way. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 19 June 2018 (UTC)) Statement by PudeoGot to love MrX lecturing others about user conduct whilst a while ago telling people to "fuck right off". It's amazing how much the policies are bent for some, and how strictly observed for others (Netoholic). This is a perfect example how letting some users off the hook and selectively being strict against others forms an unfair snowball effect: sanctions will be placed on the existing sanctions. --Pudeo (talk) 06:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by OIDWhile we are here - and to avoid opening *another* discussion, just to expand on Trypt's comments. I cannot see that Netoholic has previously been warned under the DS for editing BLP's - but if admins would like to take a look at the Neil Gross issue (discussion at BLPN and on article talk page). Netoholic has demonstrated an amazingly incorrect understanding of the BLP - he genuinely argued that it was a BLP violation to quote a subject directly because there may be other quotes by the subject (not identified or even evident they exist) that differed - and even a quick look at the quotes in dispute shows thats is unlikely. When multiple editors told him he was wrong he then vindictively selectively edited the biography in a deliberately cherry-picked negative manner, I need to echo Trypt's comments that we will be back here soon. The only reason I didnt look deeper into starting a discussion about getting them restricted from biographical articles is because of this similar block. Opening a discussion at a relevant noticeboard is fine, arguing with people til you are blue in the face when the consensus disagree with you is not. Nor is then deliberately violating a number of policies out of spite. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by LioneltFolks I think we've really jumped the shark here. This editor in good faith disputed the warning from the outset. To say it is ambiguous is an understatement. He came here, again in good faith, to seek redress for a block based on a warning which he felt unfair. This veteran, productive editor, has had no blocks in 4 years. Setting aside this recent incident. So how on earth does an editor like this who comes here for some kind of justice--not only doesn't get any satisfaction--but instead gets topic banned? In a recent expose Signpost reported editors have a 73% dissatisfaction with ANI and a major contributing factor to this is boomerang. I guess AE is not that much different from ANI. Same admins. Same problems. – Lionel(talk) 20:38, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (editor)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by NetoholicResult of the appeal by Netoholic
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SPECIFICO
No violation. Sir Joseph warned not to open frivolous AE requests. --NeilN talk to me 14:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
WP:ARBAP2, CIVILITY RESTRICTION
To those claiming that SPECIFICO didn't make these comments but is merely putting them into Trump's mouth, that is just as offensive and a BLP issue as well. These comments have no place on Wikipedia and I'm shocked that there are people here defending them. To Objective3000, my comment on WV's talkpage has nothing to do with this request or of Wikipedia. I was making a comment about the growth of antisemitism in the US. SPECIFICO's antisemtic comments were not read with any bias, I read them simply as they were typed out. Let's not start to blame the victim here.
Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICOI see that MrX has given the full text of my remark on the talk page. Several editors misrepresented that by cutting words out of context. I asked them to stop. Instead, here we are. To provide additional context, it was a long thread that got off into OR back and forth, so I started a subsection to focus on the only issue I was raising, to wit NPOV. This was a Trump interview by a small Jewish publication with a very defined readership in Brooklyn, NY on the occasion of Trump's attendance at a Jewish recognition ceremony. The interview was not picked up by mainstream media, and in the absence of any confirmation of its significance, it fails DUE WEIGHT as an indication of Trump's core values or beliefs. It was directed to a certain audience on this occasion and, as I said earlier in the thread, is typical of the kind of meaningless statement public figures or political hopefuls will make to win affinity from various defined groups. To my great surprise, MelanieN had a different view and wrote the following [69] . My reply responded to this (which, in its insinuation that many folks would disown Jewish offspring, may be quite offensive to some readers, BTW). My response simply posed the opposite interpretation of Trump's statement -- that he was acting only out of self-interest and that there was nothing to indicate this Ivanka snippet contradicts his well-documented and amply sourced record of anti-Semitic statements, enablement of neo-Nazi supporters, etc. My post clearly states that it's just as likely that Trump is at best indifferent to religion, Jewish people, and religious hatred, and that he is motivated only by perceived self interest in such matters. I hope that's clear enough for the present thread. As some of the Admins know, I have been stalked and singled out over the past month or so by a series of mostly pro-Trump editors who have brought a series of specious or exaggerated complaints about me, possibly because I have insisted on NPOV editing and valid sourcing in articles that concern him. SPECIFICO talk 15:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC) @MelanieN: @MelanieN: Of course I was indicating a possible Trump mindset, to tell you I rejected your confidence in your take on his mindset. That's plain from my English words. Thanks for your comment. I believe I was also clear -- but perhaps assumed too much context -- that my take on public figures' attitudes is often not that they have strong views, but that they don't care about the substance of this or that issue, they care about how it affects their image and popularity. I said Trump may just not care at all about religion. That's a personal interpretation, but not a disparaging one and not inconsistent with acknowledged fact. I also said, and gave the "unwashed" definition to demonstrate, that expression does not refer to folks who don't bathe or something. It's a colloquialism for the hoi polloi - for the sort of folks that don't travel in Trump's circles, that will never be business partners, counterparties, power-brokers, or other useful contacts. They are not in the market for Trump condos or golf memberships. They have other interests. Etc. etc. That means he might be completely indifferent to these folks, except for their votes and possible campaign contributions. And like the other bit, it was expressing the likelihood not that Trump is personally virulently anti-Semitic, but rather that a public figure courting favor with any group reflects the needs of a public figure, not an inner good or bad will. I'd previously illustrated the same point using the name of Hillary Clinton. SPECIFICO talk 18:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC) I'll be glad to provide citations that point to Trump's tolerance or enablement of anti-Semitism, but I didn't do so here at AE because it's a content matter. As a matter of fact I've been looking for the best references to add more content to the article, because it is a longstanding and noteworthy aspect of Trump's public persona. SPECIFICO talk 18:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC) I've just begun to look for valid sources, but per MVBW, it's surely not a BLP violation to suggest that Trump might be indifferent to or tolerate Anti-Semitism. @Tryptofish: Just for the record, the problem with cutting OP some slack for misreading my words is that by the time this complaint was filed, the whole thing had been hashed over 3-4 times on talk. Look at this user's recent block record [70]. SPECIFICO talk 01:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by MrXHere is what SPECIFICO actually wrote:
She did not say Hasidic Jews are unwashed; she posed a hypothetical of what Trump might think, using an idiom commonly understood to mean poor or unsophisticated. She also did not say that Hasidic Jews are dumb. To characterize these comments as antisemitic is ridiculous.- MrX 🖋 15:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Comment by MONGOSPECIFICO seems to think the purpose of a BLP page is to make assumptions about what the subject of the BLP thinks with nary a supporting reference to hold up the claim, which in itself would in this instance be relegated to an opinion piece anyway.MONGO 15:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC) SPECIFICO has been warned repeatedly by what appears to be neutral admins, not pro-Trump editors. two in this thread alone, [72]MONGO 16:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Objective3000I wouldn’t have said this as someone might misunderstand it or try to use it against me in a completely unrelated thread (a la [73] two hours ago). Looks clear to me that was a hypothetical about possibilities of the thinking of another person used to give alternatives to a previously mentioned possibility. That’s not anti-Semitic. O3000 (talk) 15:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by WinkelviAnti-semitic remarks on a talk page for an article that has views which number in the tens-of-thousands where anyone "off the street" could wander into the talk page discussion are incredibly unacceptable and inexcusable. What's more unacceptable is that after making excuses for why her unqualified comments were acceptable and having that pointed out to her by two editors (one being an admin), SPECIFICO didn't admit her error or strike with an explanation next to the strike. Such comments should never be just left without a qualifier and explanation. As they are written in the original comment, they are unabashedly anti-semitic, full stop. If an editor who's Jewish sees SPECIFICO's comments as anti-semitic, the proof is in the perception by those in the protected class, regardless of how many explanations are provided and how many apologists for her comments emerge. Indeed, if anti-discrimination law and the ADL or the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center would consider those comments discriminatory hate speech, why wouldn't we? Here's a hypothetical: if anyone who is Jewish (regular editor, infrequent, newbie or just a reader) happens to stop by there and read them and is insulted and/or offended and feels discriminated against, then there's extreme damage done. And not just to the person who is offended, but the reputation of Wikipedia. Which could also then become a feeling of "Wikipedia makes excuses for and allows editors to promote anti-semitic commentary". Can anyone not see this? I agree with what Sir Joseph said above: it's shocking there are editors defending these comments. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 16:17, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesOne should look at the comment by SPECIFICO in appropriate context [78]. This thread is a discussion of content, which includes such things as conversion to Judaism. This is something widely published. The comment by SPECIFICO is obviously not directed against any other participants of the project. Neither this is a BLP violation. Does it qualify as "antisemitic"? I do not think so because she discusses something published in sources. Winkelvi tells: "If an editor who's Jewish ...". I think it is precisely the kind of argument one must avoid around here. OK, I am also partly Jewish. So what? My very best wishes (talk) 17:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by GeogeneMONGO said, SPECIFICO seems to think the purpose of a BLP page is to make assumptions about what the subject of the BLP thinks. Actually, the evidence already given seems to show it was MelanieN doing that. Geogene (talk) 17:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by MelanieNIn an effort to Assume Good Faith, that was a possible interpretation I put onto SPECIFICO's comment - that maybe she was trying to convey that was how Trump thought about it. SPECIFICO has not confirmed this interpretation; she has related the use of "unwashed" to the term "great unwashed" meaning lower class or working class. It should be noted that I initially said "Shame on you" to SPECIFICO for using this language[79] - not realizing that it would escalate into a major issue. --MelanieN (talk) 18:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by JFGNo strong opinion on this particular dispute, except that the whole conversation looks excessively emotional for a talk page where everybody should be focused on improving article content instead of blaming each other. But I do challenge the admins' response: how many times is SPECIFICO going to walk away from her inflammatory attitude with yet another warning to edit more carefully and be more respectful of her fellow editors? — JFG talk 20:42, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI've been looking at this section while participating more actively in the section above. I think it would be reasonable to cut Sir Joseph a little slack over initiating this report. I can appreciate how, seeing the language in question, a person acting in good faith could become concerned about it, even though, at the same time, it looks to me that SPECIFICO was not actually stating it as an antisemitic assertion. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Bus stopThis might squeak by as not being antisemitic but it is egregiously gratuitous. Bus stop (talk) 01:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
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Paul Siebert
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Paul Siebert
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Paul Siebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Eastern_Europe#Standard_discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [80] (last phrase at the bottom) - This is a BLP violation - accusing Stéphane Courtois of forgery; accusing a scientist of a scientific forgery is a very serious accusation.
- [81] - This is a repeated BLP violation - contrary to claims by Paul, Courtois was not accused of forgery by his colleagues. They only had a public disagreement about numbers in a book and some interpretations.
- [82] - This is a personal attack on article talk page (if a person behaves as a troll, then it is reasonable to conclude they are a troll, etc.) Paul argued about his edits: (a) (edit summary: "The source did not say the order was to use gas vans" and (b) [83]. Note that based on his own words (diff #3), Paul was well aware that the sources did say it, contrary to his edit summary. Here is whole thread. Paul make this edit to remove phrase "who acted on the orders from the higher NKVD administration" (his edit summary is "It is not clear that usage of gas vans was authorised by Berg supervisors...". This is also the title of the thread he started. How he justifies the removal? He tells (diff #3): "Nobody claims executions [of prisoners in gas vans] was Berg's own initiative. Obviously, he was doing that according to the order of his supervisors. The question was if the construction and usage of gas vans was the order of his supervisors." Does it sound logical?
- [84] - This is personal attack on article talk page (starting from You cannot pretend you are an educated and skillful person...). This is clearly a personal comment, not just a criticism of something I have written during any discussions. He responds to this my comment.
- [85] This is an unsubstantiated accusation of bad faith.
- [86]. His "explanation" why I act in the bad faith.
- [87] (last phrase at the bottom of the diff) - This is false accusation of misinterpreting a source. The accusation is completely groundless.
- [88] Paul tells: if you see no anti-Semitism in these Solzhenitsyn's words, that tells something about you - reply to this. No, I do not see anti-Semitism in this quotation (last diff). Do you? What it suppose to tell about me? Yes, some writings by Solzenitsyn were debated as possibly antisemitic.
- [89] - Long political rant culminating in accusing user Woogie10w of ... not respecting Paul's grandfather and Soviet people (your father came back .... because my grandfather was killed... Please, show respect to the people whose deaths allowed you to live. They were not just cattle...).
- (older) [90] (at the bottom) - This is bad faith assumption - accusing Collect of deliberately violating a policy: You are repeatedly adding the text that violates WP:NPOV without properly explaining this addition on the talk page, citing a deliberately wrong reason. Their conversation resulted in such exchange: [91] ("you accused me of lying"), [92] ("I never accused you of lying, ... You falsely accused me in 1RR violation.")
- [93] - misleading edit summary. The edit was explained on talk page [94], and Paul was well aware of this (some further comments: [95]).
- (older) [96] - a thread started by Paul on article talk page. It was entiteled by Paul as "POV pushing". This is a violation of talk page guidelines. As banner on the top of the page tells, one should discuss only the improvement of the corresponding main space page. The thread by Paul was not about improvement of the page, but a flow of personal accusations ("POV pushing"). The accusations were bogus because there was no 1RR violation or any other "violations" alleged by Paul. This is actually a perfect example to explain how and why numerous article talk pages in the project are transformed to the "battlegrounds" simply because contributors (Paul in this case) start accusing others on the pages which exist only for discussing the improvement of content.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I was very reluctant to submit this request and thought it might be avoided. Therefore, prior to filing any requests, I tried to explain to Paul that his editing was problematic (whole thread), but he responded with offenses (diffs #5, #6, "that's a lie", "you continue to pretend"). Moreover, he continued doing the same (for example, diffs #1, #2 and #9). All these discussions were related to Eastern Europe.
@The Blade of the Northern Lights. I added a few more diffs. In addition, Paul produces very long and fruitless discussions on article talk pages and refuses to accept consensus or the lack of consensus. For example, speaking about "Black Book", he posted this question a few years ago. He recently re-posted it again [97]. He received no support, but still continue defaming the author of the book on WP pages (diffs #1 and #2). I do not know if his sources to discredit Stéphane Courtois are cherry-picked or just random, however they do not support the assertion by Paul that the notable academic has been involved in a scientific misconduct if to read them. I believe it is a BLP violation and WP:OR by Paul.
@Woogie10w. Most my diffs were not about the "Mass killings" page, but I am not surprised you do not want edit this subject. I think one problem is that Paul clearly exhibits an WP:TE editing pattern on the talk page (diffs #1, #2, #10, and #12; #9 was also related to this page). He also starts multiple threads trying to discredit the "Black Book of Communism", which is probably one of the best academic RS on the subject of this page. He does it over and over again: [98],[99],[100],[101]. And he continue doing the same on this AE page - see his response below [102].
@Paul Siebert. "Troll" again [103]? I do not find your arguments convincing, sorry.
- Diff #7. You continue to insist that I mistranslated or misinterpreted something. Where? Any diff with my alleged "translation"? There is nothing.
- Diff #8 (antisemitism accusations) -No, there was no any misunderstanding. Please check my comment Paul responds to in diff #8. Paul, what does it "tell about me"?
- Diff #11. No, I did not make my edit against consensus. Paul provided incorrect/misleading link to something that had happen much later, after his and my edit [104]. Here is the state of discussion at the moment of his edit. What consensus? In fact, these words were unilaterally just inserted by Paul [105] (so I acted per WP:BRD).
- Diff/link #12. I asked Paul previously not to make personal comments on article talk pages [106]. Nevertheless, he started this thread on article talk page 10 days later. Why? Paul tells that discussing other people on article talk pages is a proof of his good faith [107].
@TTAAC. In the first chapter of Black Book Courtois provides his own numbers of victims, which are not based on the chapters by Margolin and Werth, and he does not tell these numbers are based on their chapters. Therefore, the numbers must be explicitly attributed to Courtois. That is what I did in this edit. For some reasons Paul called this my edit "POV pushing" (link #12; at the bottom of the diff he tells I made "misleading edit summary" in this edit. Wrong. It was correct edit summary and good edit.).
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Paul Siebert
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Paul Siebert
I have to skip the most ridiculous accusations because of space limitations.
1. Re: Forgery etc: reliable sources say that Courtois "manipulated"[1] or "deliberately inflated"[2] some figures, which he then used as a proof for his theory. A beginning if the discussion of this question can be found here, all diffs cannot be provided because there were a lot of them). Manipulation of figures by Courtois lead to a serious conflict between Courtois and his co-authors:[3] Two main contributors of this book (Werth and Margolin) claimed that Courtois took the figures produced by them and produced the figures that were considerably inflated as compared to the original data. Such manipulation is not necessarily tantamount to forgery, but it is very close. That is exactly what I say ("it seems Courtois simply forged his figures"), and a well documented public scandal over this story demonstrates that my statement was hardly an exaggeration.
2. redundant
3. Re: "if a person behaves as a troll, then it is reasonable to conclude they are a troll": To explain this, I need to briefly describe a content dispute in a formal way. Durin a discussion, I said: "I agree that the facts A and B did occur. However, I disagree that C follows from A and B. [4] MVBW twisted my words, and claimed "You admitted that A and B did occur, which mean you yourself agreed with C". To me, such behaviour is a typical trolling.
4. Re: "You cannot pretend you are an educated and skillful person..." Truncation completely changed the meaning of this sentence. A brief summary of my full post is: "You are smarter than the posts you make, please, return to a rational discussion". (MVBW is a scientist who is supposed to be familiar with the criteria applied to scientific publications and good articles).
5. Re: "This is an unsubstantiated accusation of bad faith" (partially addressed above (#4)). The whole discussion can be seen here. Obviously:
- There were no accusations of bad faith, it was an answer to a direct question: "do you accuse me of bad faith?" MVBV asked me on my talk page.
- It looks like MVBW started the whole discussion in attempt to force me to make this statement (as if they were already contemplating to file this AE request).
- The policy does not prohibit accusations of bad faith, it prohibits unsubstantiated accusation. In this particular case, my words were not "an unsubstantiated accusation", but a logical summary of a long discussion.
6. Re: This diff see above.
7. Re: "last phrase at the bottom of the diff". A key point here is that the exact translation of the word "расстрелять" (that means not "execution" (a general term), but "shooting").[5] Obviously, if one sees this my phrase taken out of context, it looks somewhat rude. However, taking into account that, as a rule, any discussion with MVBW makes several rounds where all arguments are being repeated ad nauseum, some degree of irritation is quite understabdable.
8. Re: "if you see no anti-Semitism in these Solzhenitsyn's words, that tells something about you" retrospectively, I see that it was just misunderstanding. I thought we were discussing this statement,[6] whereas that book described the same subject in two different chapters, and the wording in another chapter was less anti-Semitic.
9. Re: "Long political rant" Actually, it was a friendly discussion between Woogie10w and me on our talk pages, where Woogie10w and I disclosed some personal information about our ancestors. I feel very uncomfortable that a third person wedged into this discussion, and I am not intended to discuss the details here. Although Woogie10w and I interact very rarely, I think he is a very kind and interesting person, and I am glad he thinks the same about me. Since I believe off-Wiki communication is something we should avoid, my email is disabled, so a talk page dialogue was the only way to communicate with Woogie10w. In my opinion, MVBW's behaviour in this particular case was profoundly dishonest.
10. Re: "accusing Collect of deliberately violating a policy" Don't have space to discuss this unrelated story.
11. Re: "misleading edit summary" In reality, (MVWB was acting against talk page consensus (see the "War breaks out in Europe; a pretext for a Soviet invasion" section).
12. Re: "a thread started by Paul on article talk page" This thread must be read in full from the beginning to the final TFD's post. It is a representative example of MVBW's behaviour. I just wanted to add that although I know MVBW since very early times (starting from his conflict with another user, which gave a start to the WP:EEML story, when MVBW was editing under the currently deleted account "Biophys"), I still assumed MVBW's good faith until June 2018. Regrettably, after this case, I have no possibility to assume it any more.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- P.S. I think, this, including the link to the AE case is also relevant. This recent arbitration case was declined as premature, not frivolous. Maybe, it makes sense to return to that case again, because it seems MVBW is creating problems not only me but for other users too. This report may also deserve attention. This request went to archive, and no actions were taken. A probable reason may be that the case was too convoluted. Nevertheless, this case may shed some additional light on how the conflict was developing. I agree that at some point my statements became more emotional than they should have been. A possible reason was that during my ~6 years long Wikibreak I lost some skills that allowed me dealing with the users of that type. Frankly, I regret that I let myself be drawn into long and fruitless disputes with MVBW that just wasted my time and lead to unneeded emotional escalations. I was naive, and I thought this user was capable of accepting arguments from others. In future, I'll do my best to avoid any discussion with this user, because, as I see now, these discussions are absolutely senseless.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Through the manipulation of numbers (...) the impression is created that Communism is four times worse than fascism and that the Holocaust was not a uniquely evil crime
- ^ Hiroaki Kuromiya. Review Article: Communism and Terror. Reviewed Work(s): The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, and Repression byStephane Courtois; Reflections on a Ravaged Century by Robert Conquest. Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Jan., 2001), pp. 191-201. [1]
- ^ Courtois enormous body count of Communism's victims certainly sparked the ire of some of his detractors - including Nicolas Werth, a contributor of the Black Book of Communism who broke over several aspects of the introduction, including the fact that Courtois used a figure of twenty million dead at the hands of Soviets, whereas Werth's own estimate, given in his chapter of his volume, was fifteen million
- ^ More concretely, (i) the source says that a person X obtained general instructions from his supervisors; (ii) to implement these instructions, X had to do some technical step; (iii) however, the source does not say this particular technical step was a part of instructions X got from supervisors.
- ^ The source says about Stalin's Great Purge. It tells about one person, Berg, who was accused of inventing the gas van. Berg explained that he was acting in accordance with the orders of his supervisors, who demanded his team execute (literally, "shoot") a huge number of people. The team was incapable of doing that, so he had to build a gas van. The source uses the word "shoot", not just "execute", which means the order to execute people did come from Berg's supervisors, but creation of gas vans was Berg's own initiative. Since MVBW is proficient in Russian, they could not make this misinterpretation just by mistake.
- ^ Google translates this fragment as follows: "And - I call on the Jews. Repent not for Trotsky-Kamenev-Zinoviev, they are already on the surface, they can be brushed aside: "they were not Jews!" And - to look honestly at the depth of the early Soviet oppressor apparatus - to those "invisible" like Isai Davidovich Berg, who created the famous "gas vans", which killed the Jews themselves too, and even to more inconspicuous people who were doing routine paperwork in the Soviet apparatus and never went public." In other words, Solzhenitsyn directly accused Jews, as an ethnic group, in inventing gas vans.
additional comments (I don't know if this is included in the 500 word limit, and I see no problem if this my post will be deleted)
Re: "My very best wishes (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC) "
- Re: Diff #8. The citation from this diff was taken from the the Wikipedia article, and I was not sure the source was quoted correctly. To check that, I opened Solzhenitsyn's book, and the first fragment of the text that I found was the one I already presented in a footnote (a highly anti-Semitic one). Anyway, if a book contains at least one statement of that kind, that makes a whole book anti-Semitic. I believe everybody agrees with that. If MVBW disagree, that tells more about MVBW than about me.
- Re: Diff #11. Yes, exactly. MVBW expressed a concern about one edit. This edit was previously supported by one user, and another user expressed a concern, that I successfully addressed (Piotrus agreed with my explanations and supported this text later in a separate post). MVBW was dissatisfied with this edit, and we started a discussion. The diff provided by MVBW demonstrated that, instead of addressing my last argument, MVBW unilaterally decided to delete the statement from the article, and provided no further explanations a response to my last argument. Obviously, that step looked as a refusal to discuss, and, therefore, my edit summary absolutely correctly described a situation as I saw it given the facts available to me by that moment. I sincerely don't understand what is the point MVBW are trying to demonstrate in this post.
- Diff/link #12. This section starts with my comments on some edits. No names were mentioned. If, according to MVBW, such posts are not allowed on article's talk pages, what these pages are needed for? Frankly, I don't understand what exactly MVBW wanted to demonstrate by providing this link, because the whole thread tells nothing negative about me: Actually, this particular thread is a clear demonstration of my good faith, becasue instead of reporting MVBW on ANI fro 1RR violation, I just described this incident (without providing any names) on the talk page, thereby giving MVBW a chance to self-revert. What is obvious from the thread is that it tells a lot of negative things about MVBW's own behaviour, and it explains why my reaction was sometimes redundantly emotional.
- --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Re: "MVBW@The Blade of the Northern Lights" This post contains so many false accusations, that I need to address (although I didn't plan to talk about that initially).
- Re "Paul produces very long and fruitless discussions on article talk pages and refuses to accept consensus or the lack of consensus." An RfC (note, this RfC was opened not by me!) is currently open about removal of the Black Book from the article's lead [108], and the votes are 50:50. Interestingly, some voters who oppose removal, make a reservation that criticism of this book should be added. The RfC that was open by me [109] asked a question about the need to add criticism every time this source is being cited, and many users supported this idea. In separate sections, started not by me, but other users, they present a lot of evidences demonstrating that the source MVBW is trying to advocate is very questionable. The examples of these posts are this, this, this, this, or this. This means, the question about Courtois and his figures is being raised by many users, who provided serious arguments against this source. MVBW was a participant of majority of these discussions, and MVBW cannot claim they were not aware of that.
- The arguments I present on talk pages are based on a result of an absolutely neutral search described here. As a result of that search, I produced a set of the top quality reliable sources : the articles published in the most reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals. These sources tell us that the Black Book of Communism is generally seen as a questionable source due to the statements Courtois made in the introduction, i.e. the very statements MVBW is advocates. The results of this work deserve at least a serious discussion, however, all discussions that involve MVBW are just repetition of the same stupid arguments and ignoring elementary facts. The most frequent trick MVBW uses is to refer to WP:V during a dispute about neutrality [110], so my time and efforts are being wasted in fruitless discussions with a troll, who brings no fresh reliable sources or reasonable arguments. Not only I, but many other users, including user:Fifelfoo, user:AmateurEditor, user:The Four Deuces, user:Aquillion, user:Vanamonde93, user:RhinoMind, user:GPRamirez5, user:C.J. Griffin and others seem frustrated: some of them minimized their activity, others express their dissatisfaction openly. Examples are this comment (the last sentence), this comment, or Woogie10w's comment below.
- Not only MVBW ignores a criticism on the talk page, they are trying to remove any mention of Black Book criticism from the article. Here, MVBW removes the mention of controversy from the lead, here, MWBV is doing that again, here MVBW removes it again along with a POV tag (despite the fact that a hot discussion was in progress on the talk page). MVBW is doing that with a very misleading edit summaries, and all these edits (as well as many others) directly ignore multiple arguments and sources presented by several users.
- The space limitations do not allow me to present all evidences, however, I can do that in a separate place if arbitrators decided that that case deserves their attention. --Paul Siebert (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by GPRamirez5
I regret that I don't have more time to write testimony and assemble evidence right now, but I stand by the ANI case I brought against MVBW, and I second everything that has been said here in Paul Siebert's defense. GPRamirez5 (talk) 16:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (--Woogie10w (talk) 13:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC))
I got involved in this discussion about Mass Killing under Communist regimes and gave up. The discussion degenerated into a gigantic POV storm because the editors, including myself, were not discussing the source Courtois. When I tried to discuss the various sources related to the topic I was ignored. The editors I interacted with constantly argued based on their own POV rather than citing reliable sources. I suspect that the editors were acting in good faith but were not familiar the topic and the sources. In my case I made the big mistake of wasting my time engaging a long winded discussion that involved my own POV, I realized my mistake and opted out of the discussion. Paul was acting in good faith and really needs to base his arguments on reliable sources that can be verified. I have hard copies of the sources and am willing to work with editors who want to improve the article.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging
To give context to Paul Siebert's (admittedly unnecessarily inflammatory) "forgery" accusation against Courtois, it should be noted that Courtois authored the introduction to the Black Book, in which he purported to summarize the conclusions of the book's various contributors—notably Nicolas Werth, author of the chapters on the Soviet Union, and Jean-Louis Margolin, author of the chapters on China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. (The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia account for the great majority of all mass killings under communist regimes.) In the introduction, Courtois claimed that approximately 100 million individuals died as a result of communist regimes during the 20th century, compared to the roughly 25 million victims of Nazi Germany. To reach this total, Courtois cited estimates of the death toll attributable to communism in specific countries; for example, Courtois gave the figures of 65 million deaths in China, 20 million deaths in the Soviet Union, and 1 million deaths in Vietnam. Werth and Margolin, however, used somewhat lower and more speculative numbers for China and the Soviet Union, and Margolin (pp. 565–575) concluded only that North Vietnam's land reform was accompanied by "probably some 50,000 executions in the countryside"
(an estimate that, just as an aside, has been contradicted by recent scholarship) and that "at least 3,000 people were massacred"
during the infamous Viet Cong occupation of Huế in South Vietnam; Margolin further emphasized that "the subsequent fall of the South Vietnamese regime on 30 April 1975, was not in fact followed by the bloodbath that so many feared and that did take place in neighboring Cambodia."
Werth and Margolin subsequently engaged in a public dispute with Courtois regarding the liberties he took with the introduction, as documented in several 1997 articles in Le Monde: "The two authors reproach Stéphane Courtois his 'obsession to arrive at one hundred million deaths.' Nicolas Werth thus accounts for fifteen million victims in the USSR, when Stéphane Courtois, in his introduction, adds five. Mr Margolin explains that he has never mentioned a million deaths in Vietnam." (In the original French: "Les deux auteurs reprochent à Stéphane Courtois son « obsession d'arriver aux cent millions de morts ». Nicolas Werth décompte ainsi quinze millions de victimes en URSS, quand Stéphane Courtois, dans son introduction, en ajoute cinq. M. Margolin explique « qu'il n'a jamais fait état d'un million de morts au Vietnam »."
) While the ~20 million estimate for deaths under Stalinism was popularized long before Courtois by Robert Conquest—and it would indeed be hyperbolic to accuse Courtois of "forgery" for citing it—it appears that Courtois essentially conjured the 1 million estimate for Vietnam out of thin air, relying on Margolin to lend it some credibility even though Margolin's partial tally actually put the victims of Vietnamese communism at 53,000 or higher.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Side comment by SMcCandlish
An obvious part of the problem here is that the entire Mass killings under Communist regimes page is basically a giant multi-pronged WP:Coatrack. These are not all one topic, and putting them together is a WP:POV and WP:OR exercise, verging on propaganda. These should be split into separate articles on each government (and should not use the loaded word "regime", per MOS:WTW). I think that would go a long way to defusing conflict; a pseudo-encyclopedic article like this a magnet for PoV-pushing in both directions. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:14, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Paul Siebert
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- At first glance it does look as if Paul Siebert needs to dial it back a few notches. I'm not sure whether this necessitates sanctions at this point, I could be persuaded either way, but clearly several of those comments add much more heat than light. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:44, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
The Rambling Man
No violation. Stephen 23:46, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Rambling Man
Explanation below.
In the past, I've repeatedly noticed TRM threatening to take editors to ArbCom and never following through. This produces a chilling effect on contributions. I noticed these edits earlier today on my watchlist [113] [114] [115], prompting me to place a polite note on TRM's talk page asking he avoid wielding ArbCom like a weapon in his disputes. I was attempting to de-escalate that situation, but instead I was accused of making some type of threat toward him [116], something I very clearly did not do. The two diffs linked above speculate wildly about my motivation for posting that note on his talk page, ascribing it to some type of ArbCom conspiracy to "get him". This is a rather blatant violation of his prohibition against speculating about the motivation of others. In the past, TRM has asked me to use his talk page if I have any concerns instead of going to a noticeboard, which is what I tried to do here. Evidently, that doesn't work, as even a short and polite note receives this sort of response, so here we are.
Discussion concerning The Rambling ManStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Rambling ManDespicable that a member of Arbcom has resorted to such. Just leave me alone. Even the admin in question who I am building the case against has encouraged me to do so. Baited and entrapped. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC) By the way, a few thoughts:
With no irony whatsoever, I've received many emails which aren't anonymous from long-standing editors who haven't contributed to this case who support me completely. I guess that's what happens when these kinds of "reports" are made. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Vanamonde93
Statement by FramSanctioning an editor when he first is baited, reacts as could be expected, and then gets reported by the baiting "concerned editor", seems more like a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. TRM should know when to shut up, but Bu Rob certainly should know where his "concerns" are likely not wanted and bound to be counterproductive. An ArbCom member talking about ArbCom to an ArbCom sanctioned editor shuoldn't be surprised that them posing simply as a "concerned editor" isn't really convincing or helpful. Trout Bu Rob and TRM and drop this for the non-event it actually is. Fram (talk) 08:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by DwellerDismiss this nonsense, per what the others above say. And once again, Sandstein, I maintain that you are not an uninvolved administrator when it comes to TRM. If you don't believe me, look at how every time he's brought here, you opine below that he should have some hefty block and the community roundly disagrees with you. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
There's consensus. Move to close --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:13, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by WBG
Statement by Davey2010Personally I feel the comments were baiting, Had TRMs comments been made over a few days or weeks then I could kinda understand the message but as they were made within an hour I feel the message was OTT, I also feel BuRob should not have replied (or if they felt the need to then they should've replied with "okay well this was made in good faith and that's it" and then left it at that), Speedy close, Speedy decline. –Davey2010Talk 15:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JbhunleyI just want to note the relavent part of INVOLVED reads: One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not show bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. While it seems to give a pure pass for 'purely administrative role' the whole point of INVOLVED is to limit administrators from acting as administrators in situations where they may have formed a bias based on their prior editing and interactions. It does not really envision a long term conflict between an admin and editor where the admin has potentially formed a bias because of administrative work. While I do not know enough of the history between these two I have seen Sandstein's netutality with respect to The Rambling Man questioned in good faith by respected editors and administrators. If Sandstein does not want to step aside simply to avoid the appearance of bias and out of respect for those who have repeatedly expressed concern, I would suggest biting the bullet and opening up an AN thread to address the question. I do not know that I like the idea that INVOLVEMENT can be triggered by any administrative interactions, even if long term and adversarial as this one seems to be. Generally I would expect an admin to recognize when their judgement may be compromised, as envisioned by INVOLVED, regardless of whether they meet the letter of it. Failing that I would expect that they would step aside once several editors repeatedly bring the matter up; If for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Since this has not occurred and leaving the matter outstanding will ultimatly lead to Sanstein's administrative actions being questioned and the inevitable drama which will follow, I strongly suggest the matter be resolved sooner rather than later. Jbh Talk 15:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Statement by power~enwikiI do see a clear violation here in TRM's comments to BU Rob here (speculating on Rob's motives); I also feel that was deliberately baited and recommend closing with no action. An ARBCOM case regarding conduct at WP:DYK has been widely speculated for quite some time and I don't feel TRM's comments on that topic justify any action. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Result concerning The Rambling Man
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Nishidani
No action. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nishidani
Was blocked in March as AE sanction [122]
Discussion concerning NishidaniStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NishidaniSigh. Shrike,AE is not a venue to get rid of editors. It serves to deal with problematical behaviour that is obstructive of rational constructive and collaborative work to make wikipedia authoritative in its neutral presentation of the realities of the world based on a capacity to ascertain grounds for compromise. You well know that, as in the past, I have, save for one distant exception, when notified of a perceived 1R infraction either immediately reverted or consulted an expert to make a call, and adhere to his or her judgment. What your interpretation is saying about 1R strikes me as bizarre. I must wait 24 hours after a bad edit is made before reverting it? I waited three days, watching Attack Ramon persist in restoring poor material against the advice of three editors? I notified Attack Ramon that his sources were deeply defective, at 17:19, 15 June 2018, reverting him, and as is proper immediately (2 minutes). told him he was using an appalling source for a controversial edit. He added a further non RS source, ignoring my point that the Gatestone Institute cannot be used for facts, by adding two more very dubious sources, without removing the former. I told him to go to the RSN board (as I regularly do) if he doubts my judgement (based on this, to cite one of several. He persisted in reintroducing bad material, had no talk page backing, indeed was contrary to the provisory consensus there, and I reverted him 3 days later, advising him to take up the matter at the RSN board, which he refused to do. In Shrike’s interpretation of 1R, Attack Ramon (the name says it all) can break 1R, persist against consensus in restoring quarter baked opinion pieces from dubious sources in several edits over some days, and I must wait a full day after his last edit in order to revert him. Without wishing to blow a personal trumpet, I go to great lengths on any I/P page I happen on to lay forth abundant academic textual material that would appear to lend weight to my edits. It takes hours to do this. See here, Here (regarding the extensive addition I made here, or at the page in question where I am accused of a 1R violation here. If I have a big problem with an editor I try to avoid AE and reason it out with a neutral umpire, even if my request is met with silence. My revert warrior remarks merely annotate the reality: only Icewhiz appears to trouble himself with talk page arguments for his edits or mine. The rest sit round, turn up and either ‘vote’ against any edit I may make, or drop a one liner in favour of anyone whose POV they share. People who do not read up sources, who insistently restore notoriously bad sources into a text, or, rather than tweak, simply revert mechanically trusting that the 1R rule will block intelligent editorial changes are, in my book, not committed to wikipedia’s core policies. Our encyclopedic function is not to erase, revert, vote,or use egregiously bad sources to support a POV: it consists in the careful weighing of evidence fairly and its inclusion or exclusion according to strict standards of quality.I think of the score or more of people regularly editing the I/P area five or six understand this. The rest read everything in terms of which nationalistic POV is at stake.
Statement by NableezyUm Shrike, Nishidani isnt required to wait 24 hours from the last revert to remove material from an article. The restriction you are misreading says the original author of an edit may not restore that edit for 24 hours after the revert. Nishidani isnt the original author of that edit. In fact, if you were interested in actually enforcing the rules here, there is one violation of that restriction, but it isnt by Nishidani. Attack Ramon (talk · contribs) is the original author of the edit, and was reverted by Nishidani. Attack Ramon however did not wait the required 24 hours to revert the revert. So, if you are interested in a neutral application of the rules, perhaps you should refactor this request into one about Attack Ramon. nableezy - 22:32, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
The talk page reverts are reverts of a user making unsourced claims about a living person explicitly calling for terrorism. That a user sees that as evidence to bring for banning the user removing BLP violations rather than the user making BLP violations is I guess quaint is the most appropriate word I can muster. nableezy - 18:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by BellezzasoloIt looks like the WP:1RR provision was technically violated, on the "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit." clause. In my experience, it is this clause that catches people out, and I can see no evidence of a self-revert request before coming to AE. Whether Nishdani is aware of the intricacy of that clause or not is therefore questionable (although, given a previous block, they should have checked the details). The other factor here is that Attack Ramon has an attitude towards GAMING 1RR. Finally, there exists Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100, where Attack Ramon is listed, so we should allow that investigation to conclude before judging the 1RR violation, under WP:NOT3RR. Diffs 2 and 3, while not CIVIL, well, given gaming. 4 doesn't seem to be a directed attack to me. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 22:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Hijiri88(Disclosure: I am technically a Nishidani talk page stalker, but I rarely check in, but the notification of this report appeared on my screen after I saved an unrelated message I just left him, and I decided to check out of curiosity.) Just noting that, regardless of whether a violation of 1RR technically took place, the other diffs are apparently bogus.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by IcewhizSome additional diffs:
These comments are directed towards at least 7 different editors (some are general comments on a group of editors - so that's why I'm using "at least" - others are specific).Icewhiz (talk) 09:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by TheGracefulSlickAs of late, Shrike has seemingly been waiting to pounce on "violations" committed by editors he does not like. True, my cases were violations, but editors make mistakes and Shrike gave me no opportunities to correct them before running to AE. What would make it irritating for someone like Nishidani, a dedicated content creator, is that Shrike hardly contributes to content or discussions. His comments are synonymous with a yes-man, and his edits to the I/P area are largely reverts that contribute to edit wars "within the rules". I can provide diffs of this behavior if the spotlight shifts on Shrike's behavior, but I would much rather see him just change his behavior and walk away from this.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:52, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by HuldraShrike seem to have developed a habit of reporting users, without discussing it on the relevant talk pages first, and without asking them to revert first. (Disclosure: I was reported by him last year Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive220#Huldra, also without any warning) (And there are two report by Shrike, of TheGracefulSlick, closed without action, presently on this page) Mostly these reports end in nothing...just a massive waste of everyones time. Shrike should be gently reminded that he shouldn't report editors to WP:AE, or WP:AN/I, without having discussed the problematic edit(s) on the relevant talk page(s) first, Huldra (talk) 20:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC) PS, and calling someone a "revert specialist", is pretty accurate, when 150 to 200 of each of their 500 edits is an "undid" edit. Statement by K.e.coffmanI believe that Shrike should be cautioned against filing frivolous 1RR / 3RR reports. I was the subject of their misunderstanding in the past: April 2018, where he more or less confused normal article editing with reverts. Then he filed 3RRN report anyway. It closed as "no violation" [129]. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:27, 21 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nishidani
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Volunteer Marek
Volunteer Marek will voluntarily refrain from editing the Donald Trump article for a week. They are prohibited for six months from adding any article-level maintenance tags to any Trump-related articles. They are also strongly warned against casting general aspersions against editors who they see as "pro-Trump". --NeilN talk to me 12:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Volunteer Marek
For Donald Trump, a variety of other restrictions apply, including civility and "consensus required".
American Politics has been a contentious area for some time, and the recent actions of President Trump have escalated it further. Volunteer Marek is making WP:POINT-ed edits, and additions to the lead that have no chance of obtaining consensus. This makes it more difficult for normal editing to find consensus, and requires an interminable series of lengthy talk-page discussions. Throwing maintenance tags at the article to try to get one to stick is so far from constructive behavior that some action is necessary. @NorthBySouthBaranof: - that diff is evidence of his awareness of the editing situation, presented in context with his perpetuating that situation in other diffs. I can move it to "Additional comments by editor filing complaint" if you prefer. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:48, 20 June 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein: Discretionary sanctions are discretionary; I'm not claiming there's any specific remedy breached that requires enforcement. This is the forum to
Discussion concerning Volunteer MarekStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer MarekAm I missing something or is this whole request just a "he edited the article" type of complaint? None of these edits violate any of the discretionary sanctions. Like the first one - yeah, I added it. Am I not allowed to edit the article or something? The second one - yeah, I added it. Am I not allowed to edit the article or something? Third one - talk page comment. Am I not allowed to comment on the talk page? And while the comment makes a general criticism, it's perfectly civil. Fourth one - I added the tag for a different reason then another user. The tag I added was because of the POV coverage of the issues related to the Trump Foundation. Somebody else apparently had a problem with some other, unrelated part of the article. Incidentally, User:L293D broke the 1RR restriction with his two reverts but I decided to let it go. As always, no good deed goes unpunished and I'll remember for the future that any opportunity to file a WP:AE report should be seized as quickly as possible else, someone else will do it to you (sarcasm) Fifth one - I'm sorry that the user feels this content is "absurd" (it's not - in fact the complete absence of any mention of the foundation is a glaring POV problem), but regardless, there's no violation of any sanction here. Am I not allowed to edit the article or something? Likewise my comments with Atsme were perfectly appropriate. She posted a source claiming it supported her views, whereas in fact the source was actually contradicting everything she said (hence, she probably didn't read it past the headline). She explicitly stated that she regards reliable sources as "propaganda" and that they shouldn't be used. I have no idea how you're suppose to achieve consensus with someone who takes that position - that they just not going to observe Wikipedia policy because it doesn't fit in with their POV - but at the very least the position should be noted. Likewise, claiming "WP:RECENTISM" in regard to an edit and subject matter which goes back to ... wait for it, wait for it, wait for it... 1988 (no, there's no typos there, it's a one, followed by a nine, followed by two eights - so, you know "recent") is in fact ridiculous. Actually it's worse than that. It basically shows that Atsme was struggling to find an excuse to perform a blanket revert and couldn't find one, so she went with just some random one. Which is pretty clearly WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:GAMEing. Again, there isn't a single violation here, it's just power_wiki complaining that I had the nerve to make edits to the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:05, 20 June 2018 (UTC) User:NeilN actually I wasn't aware of this discussion (I searched the talk page for any thing related to the topic before making the edit but missed it). If you look at my edit history, you can see that my editing fell of sharply between May 15th and May 28th. I made only a few edits in these two weeks and none of them were Trump related. This is because I was travelling, had only sporadic access to the internet and stopped following all but a few pages. The discussion you reference occurred between May 20th and May 23rd, so yeah I missed it. I would not have made my edit if I had known about it. Coincidentally, that discussion is another example of how the "consensus required to restore" provision is so easily WP:GAMEd by certain editors. No matter how reasonable and how well supported by sources, it only takes a few voices (and it's always the same few voices) to sabotage discussion and veto any proposal.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC) User:NeilN - as JFG notes below, there is a list of "Current consensus" items [134] and in fact I checked it prior to making that edit. There's nothing about indictments on it. The relevant discussion was buried in the archives. I'm not quite clear what you expect here - that every user memorizes the entire archive of the talk page so that they don't accidentally restore something that has been removed prior? As for the POV tag - I put the tag in in good faith, because I believed and still believe that not including any information about the Trump Foundation in the article on Donald Trump is a POV violation (and removing such information under the pretense of "RECENTISM" is ridiculous). The "consensus required to restore" restriction can't apply to inclusion of tags for different reasons. Otherwise it would mean that once somebody removes a POV tag from an article, it can never be put back (without a lengthy process), which is of course unworkable. And in response to User:Sandstein - we have top level articles tagged all the time. This is the first I hear of such a practice being considered "disruptive". If I had restored the tag after it was removed, you'd have a point, but I didn't (L293D did violate 1RR in removing it though). And sure I can refrain from making any edits to the article for a week. I'm pretty sure there'd be blind-reverted anyway, since that what happens to pretty much any attempt to update that article, all thanks to the stupid "cannot restore" restriction which gives anyone a veto power over content.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Also, want to note that it's not true that I "tag-bombed" the article. That would involve adding numerous tags for spurious reasons, see WP:TAGBOMBING, or adding a whole bunch of tags to whole bunch of articles. I didn't do that. I just added a tag in two different instances and explained the rationale each time. This is standard procedure actually, it happens all the time, and it's the removal of the tag that is disruptive.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:28, 20 June 2018 (UTC) User:Masem, the discussion from June 5th started by Ellen was about including "his administration's record number of criminal indictment". That's not what I added. My edit just provided context to the "witch hunt" part that's somehow included in the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofHow is a talk page post that even you admit is reasonable, does not in any way constitute a personal attack, and is a cogent, non-judgmental summarization of the issue at hand, in any way evidence which justifies sanctioning someone? If we're sanctioning editors for saying the words "vocal minority," we better be ready to sanction every editor on Wikipedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by involved editor MelanieNVM, I see that you did the same thing at Presidency of Donald Trump: Added a {{POV}} tag to the article because a portion of one item got removed. [135] I’m not sure if this was before or after this kind of edit became an issue at this AE report, but this kind of spite-tagging is something you need to stop doing. IMO it amounts to petty vandalism of the page. --MelanieN (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by L293DThanks for the ping, VM[sarcasm], I had no knowledge of this thread. But since he decided to ping me, Ill comment here. VM clearly broke DS because the {{NPOV}} tag had already been added to the article here. I contested the addition of the tag, and then VM added it again. VM has long history of disruptive editing and POV-pushing, as seen here, when he added an {{update}} tag to the article simply because he was not happy with a detail of it, or here. L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFGNorthBySouthBaranof wrote: On the merits of each cited diff:
Overall, this string of edits looks like the result of VM's personal exasperation with the way Trump is covered in his BLP, and our DS restrictions that prevent him from righting great wrongs unilaterally. No idea whether any of this is worthy of sanctions. I'll leave admins to ponder this remark by VM on 3 June: @Vanamonde93: I would strongly object to lifting the DS/CR editing restriction on this article. As I wrote in a recent thread[140] where VM and another editor complained about it: Statement by MONGOFrequent aspersions about the motives, editing and other perceived issues VolunteerMarek has with those he disagrees with do absolutely nothing to help the articles. It definitely comes across as bullying and it is not in the least bit conducive to a collaborative editing environment:
Statement by My very best wishesI simply think the "consensus required" restriction should never be used on WP pages because a contributor must be well aware of all previous discussions and previous editing history of the page to follow such restriction. This is very difficult even for the most experienced and well intended contributors. See an example here [152]. My very best wishes (talk) 21:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by MandrussOnly one (off-topic) comment here, otherwise I'm a disillusioned lurker on this one. @My very best wishes: - Thus the current system does not require every editor to be familiar with the history, it only requires one to be. The objective here is not to prevent all uninformed, good-faith mistakes and the resulting reverts, which are fairly common and not a problem. Anyway, there are better venues for such a discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:31, 21 June 2018 (UTC) @Vanamonde93: I concur with JFG in strong opposition to the idea of eliminating DS/CR. Too often we focus on the downside of something and fail to fully consider the downside of the alternative. The restriction was not put in place without a demonstrated need for it, and removing it would be a step backward. There will always be widespread gaming no matter what we do—until we become better at showing the door to the editors who do it constantly—and I don't see how DS/CR makes gaming easier than does any other rule or process. Show me a real-life example of this stonewalling and I'm confident I can show you how it wasn't stonewalling or wasn't the fault of DS/CR. If I can't, I'll change my opposition to support. The DS/CR does slow down the editing process, which is not a bad thing. Some editors lack the patience, and some editors are very quick to see bad faith in any opposition on content, particularly from editors who are on the other side of the political center. But again, such a change should not be made without a full hearing, and I don't see how that can be done here. Surely the views of the editors who have extensive experience with DS/CR should weigh heavily in such a decision. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:42, 21 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Volunteer Marek
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