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:Tony, are you really holding me to account for what sources said, rather than what I wrote? I didn't write anything about the political nature of the Benghazi attack. I mentioned in passing the trial of one of the suspects that was not reliant on any politician and that is very clear since I removed mention of any and all administrations without any change in meaning. This article, broadly construed, is not about an American politician and noting I have wrote about him is about a politician. My motivation was certainly not to violate the topic ban and you are casting aspersions and have now switched horses midstream after I pointed out I created the article months ago and not since the topic ban which seemed to be your original premise. Do you think it serves the encyclopedia to remove all my edits to that article or do you think they were neutral and sourced content? --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 20:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC) |
:Tony, are you really holding me to account for what sources said, rather than what I wrote? I didn't write anything about the political nature of the Benghazi attack. I mentioned in passing the trial of one of the suspects that was not reliant on any politician and that is very clear since I removed mention of any and all administrations without any change in meaning. This article, broadly construed, is not about an American politician and noting I have wrote about him is about a politician. My motivation was certainly not to violate the topic ban and you are casting aspersions and have now switched horses midstream after I pointed out I created the article months ago and not since the topic ban which seemed to be your original premise. Do you think it serves the encyclopedia to remove all my edits to that article or do you think they were neutral and sourced content? --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 20:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC) |
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Isn't [[WP:ABAN]] the correct interpretation? --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 21:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by MONGO==== |
====Statement by MONGO==== |
Revision as of 21:31, 9 December 2017
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Kingsindian
No consensus to remove any of the existing sanctions. Any future action regarding the template and how it should be placed on new articles can take place on the template talk. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Kingsindian[To clarify, I have described The Wordsmith as the admin imposing the sanction because they have in the past acted as a steward for Coffee's administrative actions.] I am here seeking a relatively narrow amendment.
The situation is as follows: In May 2016, Coffee created a template (linked above) which is used on more than 100 pages dealing with American politics. The template includes a "consensus required" provision: challenged material should not be restored unless it has consensus.
I propose that the template to be used as the "default" for post-1932 American elections contain the amendment I proposed. The amendment is modeled on the solution used in ARBPIA, and takes care of a very common justification for the "consensus required" provision (see TonyBallioni's comment linked above, for instance). This is a much more lightweight, well-tested and clearer sanction. To be clear: individual pages may still have the "consensus required" provision placed on them. In this way, collateral damage from what I consider a bad provision will be minimized. If ArbCom wishes to make an explicit statement either way (either rescinding the consensus required provision altogether, or to affirm it to be the "default"), they can also do so. See also this AE request, in which the solution I propose comes pretty close to being accepted, but somehow it never got closed one way or another. The above text is self-sufficient. In the following, I make a case for the badness of the "consensus required" provision. People can skip it if they want. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
@NeilN: I agree with you that your statement: There is absolutely nothing stopping the DS-levying admin from removing the provision if they want to.is about as logical as my statement. However, in practice, your version doesn't work. Why?
Statement by The WordsmithThis is in uncharted territory, given that I don't admin in Election 2016/Trump/far-right related articles and that one admin acting as a steward for another is also with little precedent. However, my own opinion, and one that I believe would accurately reflect Coffee's opinion, is that this Page-level sanction was never intended to be the default for APDS or one that could be accidentally applied. I do support vacating the provision from articles where it appears to have been accidentally applied, and forking the template so that the provision is an option, but the default template does not list it. I do not support vacating the CR sanction from pages where it has been deliberately applied, as that would be effectively overturning an Arbitration Enforcement action without a specific consensus about that particular sanction. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by MrXThis is a good proposal for any articles that are currently under, or will be placed under, editing restrictions requiring consensus for reinstating new material. It would prevent some of the usual WP:GAMING that allows users with throwaway accounts to gain undue advantage in content disputes. I generally agree with Sandstein's comments, and add that the DS talk page templates and especially the in-your-face edit notices are very important for notifying editors that articles are subject to DS restrictions. Admins can use Template:Ds/editnotice and add language specific to a situation, rather than simply using the Coffee version without modification. - MrX 11:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek@TonyBallioni: " I strongly object to their removal from the Roy Moore article " - Tony, my understanding is that you can still have that sanction on the article, you just have to add it separately rather than as "bundled" with the other sanctions (1RR etc). As Kingsindian says above: "The provision can be applied for individual pages at admin discretion, but is not part of the template." This isn't a proposal to get rid of the sanction. It's (very much) more limited than that. Volunteer Marek 15:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC) @Tony - it's not a bad suggestion, it's just that Coffee sorta spammed that template to lots of articles and it was never clear if he really meant to add that restriction or was just slapping on the template. Also Sandstein is right - a GENERIC restriction template used to impose DISCRETIONARY sanctions is sort of an oxymoron. At the very least it violates the spirit and intent of how DS is suppose to work. Volunteer Marek 16:08, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Man, this is like observing "institutional inertia" inert itself. "We shouldn't change it because then we'd have to change it". Volunteer Marek 16:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephCan there be clarification on if the templates are authorized by an Arbcom ruling or they are just placed there because an admin wants it? If it's the former, then shouldn't this be a discussion for Arbcom, via an amendment process? I filed an amendment request a while back, they voted on it, and I changed the template to match the new ruling from Arbcom. If the templates are not backed by an Arbcom ruling, then that should be spelled out in the template. Right now the template points to Arbcom ruling to give them enforcement ability so the templates should match ruling of Arbcom and Arbcom is where and DS rules should go for change, not AE which is an executive action, not legislative. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:01, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesI agree with Sandstein, Bishonen and Dennis Brown. According to template, All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This brings a number of difficult questions, even for experienced contributors. Was this particular edit a "revert"? Should someone count only an "exact" revert to a recent previous version, or one should also count edits that only partially undo something? And what does it mean "recent"? What if something "has been challenged by reversion" six months ago? And it is prone to gaming. Does this include reinstating content that was slightly different from the content challenged by reversion (two words were changed as during a recent AE case)? This restriction led to countless conflicts, unnecessary discussions and divisive complaints on WP:AE. Does this restriction help to establish good relationships between users? No, exactly the opposite. Surprisingly, it does not help to establish any WP:Consensus because people start discussing procedures (was something a violation) instead of discussing the content. Personally, I think that was the worst editing restriction ever made in the project. My very best wishes (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Ryk72Replace Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by KingsindianI oppose the amendment, the consensus required provision is good its enforce WP:ONUS and nullify edit wars.I think that consensus required should be a standard in every discretionary sanctions area--Shrike (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Kingsindian
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Nick.8.payne
No action. Please use WP:DR and talk to each other first before making AE requests. Particularly, attempt to explain WP:OR to new users before reporting them here; see WP:BITE. Sandstein 09:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nick.8.payne
@Sandstein and SoWhy: Well, I agree with your decision. Could someone show the basics of WP:PAGs to this newbie (more than I did)? Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:14, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Nick.8.payneStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Nick.8.payneStatement by (username)Result concerning Nick.8.payne
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Atsme
No enforcement action, but Volunteer Marek is warned that Roy Moore is within the scope of their Donald Trump topic ban, and Atsme is warned to heed the "consensus required" restriction and to not approach fellow editors with a battleground attitude. Sandstein 13:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Atsme
Personal attacks and clear WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude
Note that the personal attacks and the practice of discussing other editors without informing them has been noted by other users [9] [10]
Not sure. Too busy to check right now.
Oh boy. The user has participated in recent threads concerning the sanction. For example [11]. Indeed, the editor is currently agitating one of the admins active on this page [12] over this very sanction.
In addition to a straight up violation of the discretionary sanctions, the user also makes frequent personal attacks and WP:ASPERSIONS against others, as evidenced on User:GoldenRing's talk page. For example, referring to others as "POV warriors". According to them anyone who disagrees with them is a "POV warrior". This is coupled with insistence on using non-reliable, and fringe sources, including conspiracy and hoax sites while at the same time arguing that standard, reliable, mainstream sources are "fringe", should not be trusted and used. Basically they got it exactly backwards. This kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, especially the repeated insults and name calling has made it impossible to work collaboratively with Atsme, which is why most editors have taken to just ignoring them on the talk page. I am NOT under any TB from the Roy Moore article and I did NOT make a "revert while under TB". Atsme knows this because they have participated in recent discussions where this was brought up. Even if Atsme did not know this for sure, the proper thing to do would've been to ask or inquire, rather than edit war and violate DS by reverting. The excuse offered below is lame and false. Volunteer Marek 21:51, 4 December 2017 (UTC) (GoldenRing has explicitly stated, in the same place where Atsme is commenting: " I wouldn't consider Roy Moore covered by it (the topic ban - VM)" @Masem: [13] this is NOT - by any stretch - a violation of the Donald Trump topic ban (commenting on DT per BANEX here). The admin placing the restriction explicitly stated that edits about Roy Moore which are not explicit about Trump are not covered. Neither is the DT topic ban "broadly construed" and the diff you provide does NOT show that (in fact the diff you provide - [14] - is about an appeal of an IBAN... are you confused?). Please strike your false statements. And look, this is a straight up violation of a discretionary sanction by Atsme. A discretionary sanction that Atsme was very well aware of. A discretionary sanction that Atsme tried to get OTHER editors sanctioned under. Yet violated themselves. This is a pretty clear cut case, exactly the same as the one which recently other editors have been sanctioned under. "Friendship" or no, editors need to be treated fairly and equally. Volunteer Marek 23:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC) Atsme, you're just making excuses and trying to deflect from the fact you violated a discretionary sanction. That's it. Volunteer Marek 23:47, 4 December 2017 (UTC) @Lankiveil: (and others) - one more time. The topic ban on Trump was NOT "broadly construed". It wasn't closed as such. It wasn't logged as such. The notification didn't say it was. The admin who imposed it himself said that it DID NOT apply to Roy Moore. The issue was raised previously (once or twice) and both times relevant administrators stated that Roy Moore was NOT covered by the ban. There's no way you make this out to be a topic ban violation. Atsme knows all this. Atsme has participated in these discussions. Atsme is just trying to change the topic from their own violation of DS, personal attacks, and battleground behavior, and you're letting her WP:GAME it. Please focus on the issue at hand. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 01:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC) @Masem: Here is User:GoldenRing who is the one who imposed the sanction, quote: "The ban from everything Trump-related isn't intended to be a ban from all current US politics, so I wouldn't consider Roy Moore covered by it (so long as the edits aren't Trump-related)". Also, the topic ban is NOT "broadly construed". Volunteer Marek 01:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AtsmeStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AtsmeVolunteer Marek reverted my edit while he was subject of an AE TB by GoldenRing. Another editor was blocked for violating the TB broadly construed. I believed that editors who are under an active TB are not allowed to revert edits on topics for which they are topic banned. See this discussion which includes the violative edits (and diffs) of VM while under the TB - clearly involving a Trump related article considering the upcoming election as a candidate who supports Trump and was recently endorsed by Trump - broadly construed. I requested clarification from GoldenRing, and since there is such a gray area, the ambiguities need to be clarified or WP will end-up with far fewer active editors. Also, there is not a notice of the consensus sanction in the edit view which creates a major issue - it's on the TP which is relatively obscure from editors who are busy building an encyclopedia, and who are not interested in playing politics. I'm popping some popcorn and will quietly watch the pile on. Atsme📞📧 21:38, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Masem you said " I would be extremely careful using this as a means to justify the second revert," - I did not make a 2nd revert. I only reverted once so you are mistaken. Please correct your comment. Atsme📞📧 06:06, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by power~enwikiI don't feel that Roy Moore or Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations should be covered by a Donald Trump TBAN. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:25, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesI do not see how anyone can consider this edit as a topic ban violation with regard to D. Trump. The edit is about an opinion poll with regard to another politician. Of course that another politician was endorsed by D. Trump, and perhaps his election will help D. Trump. However, same can be said about almost any other significant politician in the US, whose elections, comments or whatever might affect the president. Telling this is covered by the topic ban is beyond belief. My very best wishes (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000With a keg of dots and a predilection of connecting them, I suppose you can consider “broadly construed” as meaning anything. I think considering VM’s revert within the scope of the TBan is a bridge too far. I do think that the reinstatement by Atsme after 23 minutes clearly violated 1RR as stipulated on the article talk. Now, Atsme claims to have not seen the consensus clause of the DS warning. I accept that and merely reverted what I believed to be a DS violation with a polite note in the edit summary as opposed to taking it to AE or article talk. What bothers me is that Atsme then went to an admin talk and made repeated accusations against other editors without notifying them. What’s the point of such? Atsme’s actions simply don’t appear to be of a collaborative nature. O3000 (talk) 23:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by involved editor MelanieNTwo points. First, I find it hard to believe that a topic ban from Trump-related articles, even broadly construed, can be considered to cover an edit about an opinion poll regarding a candidate for Senate. Was VM's topic ban actually intended to cover everything to do with current politics? Or maybe everything to do with Republican politics? Or everything and everyone on which Trump has ever expressed an opinion? If so, the decision should have said so - but the admin who imposed the ban does not interpret it that way.[17] Second, all of the discussion so far has been about VM and whether he violated his topic ban. Will there be any discussion about the subject of this report, Atsme - specifically the restoration of challenged material immediately after it had been challenged? I know that it is permitted, in cases of vandalism and BLP violations, to ignore the DS rules about reverts and restoration; is there also an exemption for cases in which a party believes the other party to be topic banned? In other words, if the TBAN actually did apply to VM, would that make it OK for Atsme to revert his challenge? Also, will there be any discussion about the personal attacks and battleground mentality cited here? (Disclaimer: I am WP:INVOLVED at the Roy Moore article, although I had nothing to do with the edits cited here or the discussion about them.) --MelanieN (talk) 00:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MontanabwI concur with the above commenters who don't think the "personal attacks" rise to the level of being actionable. VM is unhappy with Atsme, oh well. This is a controversial current event topic and emotions run high. There were not egregious policy violations here, so move on. On the other side, there is a large gray area about the details of VM's TBAN as well as the interpretation of DS as applied to this article, but he probably would benefit from clarification on that point. The appropriate response here is to explain equally to both parties what does and does not fit existing restrictions and how both parties are expected to proceed from here forward on this article and related topics. Then drop the stick. Montanabw(talk) 00:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by Kingofaces43I don't keep up with politics topics on Wikipedia, so I'll defer to others with familiarity on Volunteer Marek's topic ban, but it looks like at first glance it might be stretch of the topic ban to claim it was violated from what I've seen (though I'll let others dig on that). I mostly am commenting here because VM mentioned they didn't look up previous sanctions. A lot of users have been dealing with exactly the same behavior from Atsme that VM described on the battleground mentality. Those of us who frequent the fringe noticeboard are especially familiar with Atsme (one previous sanction was being banned from Kombucha for edit warring).[20] The snark and battleground behavior often directed at editors on article talk pages has previously caught the community's attention regarding BLP issues[21] and pursuing editors on noticeboards, etc. with vexatious claims like the claim of VM's topic ban here appears to be. Part of that pursuit of editors resulted in a block by Bishonen[22] where a site ban or noticeboard ban was also warned as a likely next step if not justified already.[23]. Bishonen also recently warned Atsme of a topic-ban in American politics if their behavior kept up back in August.[24]. The "popcorn" comments on this board[25] seem to indicate the snark and battleground mentality still permeates Atsme's interactions with editors. It's concerning that someone is bringing up these same issues again with Atsme in a controversial topic like politics when they are already on a short WP:ROPE, but it's pretty much the same stuff we've been dealing with in the past for other series of topics whenever Atsme's behavior finally gets brought up at admin boards each time. They usually seem to lash out at editors and admins[26] that try to warn them about this too and pursue that same battleground mentality, so regardless of the question of Volunteer Marek, Atsme's behavior does need a look considering the history. If VM's posts were squarely not a violation of the topic ban, then that would be more vexatious use of admin boards by Atsme that they've been boomeranged for before. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by FyddlestixVM's edit should not be considered topic ban violation - if Goldenring wanted to topic ban VM from American politics more generally, they could (and should) have. But they didn't, and they have even commented here (in response to Atsme's own request for clarification) that the ban should not be interpreted that broadly:
I note that Tony has recused themselves here - it might be worth noting that Masem and Atsme have been the two most vocal proponents of a rather strict (and extremely contentious) interpretation of policy in a number of recent politics-related discussions: [27][28][29][30] to the point where Atsme is writing a rather one-sided essay about the topic that is made up largely of quotes by Masem, and has asked him for for backup on contentious American politics articles. For those willing to plough through it all, there is a lot of evidence of IDHT-type behavior from Atsme in those discussions. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by SoftlavenderI am uninvolved on this article and was neutral about this AE until I read Fyddlestix's comments and evidence above, and I now believe that Masem should recuse himself from this AE, as Tony did. Softlavender (talk) 01:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC) I recommend a warning to both editors for battleground behavior, but no action against either at this time because we've got too many mitigating factors: (1) The topic ban notice on Marek's talk page does not say "broadly construed"; (2) Atsme only made one revert, and even that possibly on the theory that Marek had violated his TBan; (3) The matter of whether Roy Moore comes under any Trump rubric, broadly construed or not, is solely a matter of opinion, and the boundaries obviously need to be spelled out to him by somebody; (4) At least four if not five experienced editors have asked Masem to recuse and to instead opine as a commenter; (5) The material VM deleted was a quote of a poll, not a BLP-vio. I think Lankiveil nailed it when he said "I'm seeing a clear battleground mentality from both participants here." I don't know how to resolve that part; Marek is already under a temporary TBan. I think they both need a warning to desist from any direct or indirect personal comments about the other (or indeed about other editors, period, except at ANI or AE), and to stick to discussing edits, content, policies, and guidelines. I believe they may eventually end up with an IBan if they fail to adhere to that. Softlavender (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOPardon me if the following is an evaluation without evidence, but Atsme is a diehard tendentious POV editor in many areas, most recently American Politics. She's generally civil and occasionally charming, especially to Admins, which has served her well. It's gotten her a free pass over and over. In general, however, she denies the validity of mainstream sources, which is fine -- good for her, but it doesn't work on Wikipedia. She crusades against mainstream-sourced content based on a kaleidoscopic array of illogical assertions that the mainstream is biased. She has plenty of weird interpretations of content, wing-nut stuff like on G. Edward Griffin, and she distorts policy to prolong talk-page disputes long after her views have been rejected. Anyway, feel free to hat this statement-w/o-diffs or ask for diffs if either is appropriate. My point is that there's plenty of context for this false charge that VM violated the TBAN, and we'd all be much more productive without Atsme editing in American Politics. SPECIFICO talk 02:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC) @Atsme:, Above you wrote: Comment by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris(edit conflict) Fyddlestix beat me to it. User:Masem is a good admin but should not act as an uninvolved administrator on this matter. He's of course free to weigh in with his views like the rest of us, but he should recuse just as Tony did. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by MONGOTrump is currently mentioned twice in the lede and at least one more time later. It may be a stretch to say this is not intertwined with Trump but not a long stretch. Looks like VM is hoping to rid himself of all opposition by expecting a very strict application of the sanctions be applied to others, but expecting everyone to grant him the benefit of the doubt. Based on my interchanges with him, I'd have to say his behavior is as bad a battlefield one in this arena as any I have encountered lately. VolunteerMarek's flat out comment "its staying" [32] certainly had a chilling effect. Maybe the thing to do is protect the page until after the election before half the active editors get sanctioned fighting over this total POS coatrack of an article. For the record, I'd likely vote against Moore if I were an Alabamian.--MONGO 02:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by AnythingyouwantThe material at issue began like this: "A week or so before the election, a CBS News poll revealed that '71 percent of Alabama Republicans say the allegations against Roy Moore are false'". I think we can all agree that the Republicans of Alabama are living persons within the meaning of our BLP policy, right? So it would be unfortunate if we slant the article in question to make it seem like those living persons don't care about child molestation, and/or support child molesters, instead of believing (as this poll indicates) that the accusations are false. Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by TheValeyardI feel it necessary to parse this statement below.
Statement by DHeywardFirstly, the article isn't under AP2 sanctions, it's under BLP. The notification requirement is the BLP case. VM knows this. Second, VM continues to use the AE process to bludgeon opponents. He is under a topic ban for Donald Trump and it's an extremely obtuse view to not include articles regarding the election of Roy Moore as being unrelated to Trump. The man story in virtually all news outlets today is Trump's endorsement of Moore. Claiming Moore is unrelated to Trump in even the broad interpretation we use is like saying Rudolf the Reindeer is unrelated to Santa Claus. VM needs to be banned from filing these frivolous AE requests and sanctiond for violating his topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 04:20, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by WBG
Statement by Masem(Note, I believe I am truly uninvolved here since I've never edited that article or anything close to it, nor have any editor connections with those involved, only a concern for how WP is handling current events under NOT#NEWS in broad terms and the conflicts that have arisen over the last few years such as this one. But I'll respect the concerns that claim I'm not (I really don't think so) and have moved my comments from below to up here. --MASEM (t) 07:05, 5 December 2017 (UTC) )
Statement by (Anonymous)(I've removed this unhelpful screed as an administrative action. Sandstein 08:59, 5 December 2017 (UTC)) Result concerning Atsme
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DHeyward
Appeal denied. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by DHeywardPer the Atsme decision above[33], Roy Moore is within the scope of Volunteer Marek's topic ban. Just as Volunteer Marek reported Atsme, he reported me for reverting him on the same article. In the interest of consistency, please reduce my sanction to the sanction that Atsme received. Reverting banned editors is not counted as reverts as the block of User:James J. Lambden after another user used his topic ban to avoid a 1RR sanction[34]. My reverts were consistent with WP:BANREVERT considering the result of the complaint against Atsme and the 1RR exemption afforded to PeterTheFourth when he reverted James J. Lambden on a talk page. Appealing Discretionary Sanctions is not "gaming the system." In fact, it's part of the process. Please stop threatening me with increased sanctions for following procedure. I commented on the above request because it was a) not an article and b) had direct implications to my sanctions since it was the same complaint made by the same editor. I have not edited any articles within the scope of my topic ban. Since the outcomes and findings were drastically different and Tony has stated he is friends with Atsme, I think it's fair to review his sanction with the Atsme consensus in mind. Uninvolved admins can reject the appeal but punishing good faith appeals is clearly out of bounds. --DHeyward (talk) 17:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC) I don't believe I have exhibited BATTLEGROUND behavior despite being called a ";iar" and "gaming the system." No diffs have been provided. I've only commented on your talk page in relation to your sanction and when I was pinged - all well within the norms regarding sanctions. I gave you the courtesy of undoing your action prior to AN and prior to coming here. . That is not battleground behavior. Also, I don't see how you can call this anything but a good faith challenge given the finding above. I wouldn't be here if the finding were different. I understand you disagree with it but that doesn't change the fact that it was closed with a decision that the article in question falls under the scope of VMs topic ban. Do you not see how that finding may be relevant here considering WP:BANREVERT? On your talk page you erroneously stated I did not bring that up when it was the very first statement I made. --DHeyward (talk) 18:30, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by TonyBallioniDHeyward was edit warring, plain and simple, and has continually tried to game the system on this sanction and demonstrated a battleground behavior both before and after the block. There is a current appeal pending at AN where there seems to be no consensus to overturn the sanction, and he filed this while that one was pending. I disagree with the above finding and warning by Sandstein, and the fact that the administrator who imposed the topic ban (GoldenRing), does not think that Roy Moore necessarily falls within the Trump topic ban is telling. If anything, DHeyward's continued attempts to game the sanctions, including commenting on an AE action from the article that he was topic banned for originally because AE does not fall within article space in my mind shows that he is likely to continue to be disruptive and attempt to game the discretionary sanctions system. If anything, I'd support extending the topic ban. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by StrongjamIf you were only reverting Volunteer Marek, and appealed to WP:BANREVERT at the time of your edits, then I would agree that the community should assume good faith about your edits. However, you did not just revert Volunteer Marek. You reverted edits by Artw and MrX as well, and as far as I can tell Volunteer Marek wasn't even the primary author of this content. I don't see how WP:BANREVERT could apply in this case. — Strongjam (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DHeywardResult of the appeal by DHeyward
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Vyacheslav84
Wrong venue. If DRV has already decided, let it go. If you believe the DRV close was a mistake, ANI or AN are the best places to request a review by an uninvolved admin. Regards SoWhy 13:56, 7 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Vyacheslav84Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protectorate of Westarctic and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 December 5#Protectorate of Westarctic
secondary sources on this topic: [35][36], [37], pages № 2008, 2009 and 2010 and pages 516-517, 6 books, page 730-731 - even Class 15: Private Mint Issues since 1960 -- American Numismatic Association (for all numismatic material issued by a private mint of any country, including philatelic-numismatic covers, except that no denominated coins may be exhibited in this class) First Place -- Oded Paz for "The Coins of the Grand Duchy of Westarctica", 9 news - example Members included HRH Grand Duke Travis McHenry, the leader of the Grand Duchy of Westarctica, who in 2001 took command of an unclaimed chunk of Antarctica, and Travis McHenry, the grand duke of Westartica, will also be in attendance at MicroCon 2015. Westarctica is a much larger nation than Molossia, with more than 620,000 square miles in Antarctica to its name. None of the nation's 300 citizens live on the frozen land. No one does. McHenry, also a recruiting coordinator in a Los Angeles media company, said he was 'really inspired' when he found out there was a piece of Antarctica that had never been claimed. But Westarctica is not just an empty country. It's also a nonprofit, advocating for the protection of native penguins and researching how climate change is impacting Antarctica's ice sheet. ... Grand Duchy of Westarctica. One of the world's largest micronations, it encompasses 620,000 square miles of the Antarctic, but nobody actually lives there. It was founded in 2001 by His Royal Highness Grand Duke Travis McHenry after he learned no other nation had laid claim to the area. McHenry says he would like to eventually make Westarctica a real country. If he does, he jokes that he'll probably promote himself from grand duke to king., Micronations: The Lonely Planet Guide to Home-Made Nations The book's profile of micronations offer information on their flags, leaders, currencies, date of foundation, maps and other facts. Micronations featured in the book include: .... Westarctica and [38]. Based on these sources, I'm asking you to restore a separate article on this topic as significant on the Wikipedia:Notability. --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 12:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by GreenMeansGoSuggest closing this with a strongly worded warning, that bludgeoning an AfD that they themselves started, bludgeoning further at DRV, and now this, is beginning to look an awful lot like a competence issue. GMGtalk 13:51, 7 December 2017 (UTC) Statement (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Vyacheslav84This doesn't appear to be the right venue. You want Deletion Review, at WP:DRV. ValarianB (talk) 13:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Vyacheslav84
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DHeyward
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DHeyward
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- TonyBallioni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DHeyward (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Topic ban
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
[39] creation of article about Mr. Paronto, including overall Benghazi attack template- [40] directly adding information related to criticism of the Obama administration by Mr. Paronto
- [41] adding link to Benghazi attack article
- Other significant edits to Kris Paronto since the topic ban: [42], [43], [44],
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 2 December 2017 by me.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I'm not taking any action myself because DHeyward has commented in the Mister Wiki ArbCom case where I am the filing party, and I think it would be inappropriate for me to take action personally. At the same time, I think this is a violation of the topic ban I imposed on him. While Mr. Paronto is not a politician, I think he squarely falls within the related topics broadly construed bit of articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed
as he is a public figure only because of the Benghazi scandal and has been the focus of articles from news organizations such as POLITICO about his role in the events that caused the scandal [45]. Additionally, even if we are being generous and don't consider Paronto himself to be a part of the topic ban, adding information about his criticism of the Obama administration like he did in this edit, certainly is. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:23, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- DHeyward, I've struck the creation diff. Sorry for that: I misread the dates after seeing this article at AfD. I still think the edits following the topic ban, and in particular the addition of his political activity, fall within its confines and are violations. Adding information about a criticism of living politicians to a BLP who is a central player in a political scandal falls within the topic ban in my mind, which covers related topics broadly construed, and shows that you are trying to push the limits of the sanctions, which was the concern that originally led to the TBAN to begin with. I've updated the filing with that diff and others to the subject, who because of his central role in Benghazi, I feel is covered here as a related topic.TonyBallioni (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- I came across this article when I saw it at AfD this morning. I am an AfD regular and often scan the daily log. The topic ban was quite clear. It applied to
living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed
. A controversial figure in the Benghazi attack, which was one of the central scandals involving Hillary Clinton, is certainly a related topic, broadly construed. I find it hard to believe that DHeyward didn't know this, considering an article he cited as justification for keeping it in the AfD saysCritics charge Paronto with being politically motivated, he said, an accusation that continued through the 2016 presidential election.
[46] This is in addition to the POLITICO article cited above that described Paronto's version of events in relationship to the political scandal involving Clinton and the Obama administration. I also think its worth bringing up here that the only edits he has made to mainspace since receiving the topic ban have been to this article or creating a redirect to someone else related to Benghazi [47].As for how even the small edits violate the TBAN: topic bans cover all edits to articles that fall within them, not just edits related to the conflict area. I think by adding information involving Benghazi, he certainly violated the TBAN, but by my interpretation Paronto as a central figure in Benghazi is a related topic to American politicians, and any edit to his article would have been a TBAN violation. I think that the only edits DHeyward has made to articles since receiving his tban have been to this topic, make that violation worse. There is no effort at revenge here, I just don't think that a user should be allowed to continue to push sanctions to their limits. A topic ban is a topic ban, and when the only edits he has made to articles since receiving it have been in violation of it, that is an issue. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- I came across this article when I saw it at AfD this morning. I am an AfD regular and often scan the daily log. The topic ban was quite clear. It applied to
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DHeyward
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DHeyward
I created this article months ago and my recent edits were to fill in gaps as it was placed up for deletion. The article is not about a politician, which I believe is the scope of my topic ban. I only added that statement because another editor, on the talk page, said that criticizing the former Obama administration (not Obama himself) was the only thing he was notable which is incorrect. I have now deleted the "Obama administration"[49] from the sentence as it is not necessary and is not about Obama. This seems frivolous and Tony could have made the edit himself in much shorter time than filing enforcement. Also, a talk page note would have had the same effect. I am concerned about how Tony came by Kris Paronto or why he didn't come forward and say he believes this person who is not in office nor seeking office is within the scope of the American Politician topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 17:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- @TonyBallioni: I restarted editing that article after being notified of a PROD request (since denied). An editor that has a history of following me to articles made a comment about "political advocacy"[50]. That does not make Paronto an American Politician and it would be difficult to do so. There are many people critical of presidential administrations and that does not make them politicians. Nearly all our articles on celebrities has a "Political views" section but it doesn't make them politicians. Lastly, we're here to build the encyclopedia and no edit was disruptive and all added sourced detail. How did you even come across it?--DHeyward (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- The Benghazi attack is not about an American Politician. I edited Kris Paronto, the article I created months ago because it was put up for deletion. It's not testing boundaries at all. We're not a bureaucracy and nothing I added was partisan, political, reverted or challenged. Nor was anything I added about an American politician. Nor is the article about a politician. I am curious as to why this even showed up on your radar as I fear you are being played. --DHeyward (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Tony, are you really holding me to account for what sources said, rather than what I wrote? I didn't write anything about the political nature of the Benghazi attack. I mentioned in passing the trial of one of the suspects that was not reliant on any politician and that is very clear since I removed mention of any and all administrations without any change in meaning. This article, broadly construed, is not about an American politician and noting I have wrote about him is about a politician. My motivation was certainly not to violate the topic ban and you are casting aspersions and have now switched horses midstream after I pointed out I created the article months ago and not since the topic ban which seemed to be your original premise. Do you think it serves the encyclopedia to remove all my edits to that article or do you think they were neutral and sourced content? --DHeyward (talk) 20:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Isn't WP:ABAN the correct interpretation? --DHeyward (talk) 21:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MONGO
Precisely as DHeyward has stated, the article was placed up for deletion and he was merely trying to add reliable sources to this article, one he had created. If there is a foul here it certainly is as minor as it can be, and obviously wasn't done maliciously. This is about as frivolous a report as I have seen lately and I am disappointed in the filing admin and see this as a possible effort to exact revenge for being repeatedly challenged by DHeyward on the topic ban he imposed on him.--MONGO 18:45, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DHeyward
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I think that this is technically not a violation. The topic ban was phrased as "topic-banned from articles about ... politicians and related topics". This means that the ban encompasses only politician-related articles, not politician-related edits. While the edits here are related to politics, the article as a whole is not related to any specific politician. If that was not the intention, the topic ban was poorly worded. To encompass all described by WP:TBAN, I usually use wording like: "topic-banned from [topic]". Sandstein 20:48, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Dank Chicken
Blocked for a week. Sandstein 20:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dank Chicken
Discussion concerning Dank ChickenStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Dank Chicken@Makeandtoss:, @EdJohnston: You're leaving out one important fact. The article I edited is not described anywhere in it as being part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. That is strictly your opinion. I've noted this in my edit summaries, which you conviniently forgot to mention in your little "block recommendation"... @Power~enwiki: And what excact agenda is that supposed to be? I am simply contributing with facts backed by reliable sources. Statement by power~enwikiDank Chicken (talk · contribs) appears to be on Wikipedia to promote an agenda. Between his conduct at Demographic history of Israel/Palestine and his edit warring at Nobel laureates per capita, I expect administrative enforcement action to be necessary. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:48, 9 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by HuldraUser:Dank Chicken: it is clearly stated on Talk:Demographic history of Israel/Palestine that this article is under WP:ARBPIA. Even without that label there, it would still be under ARBPIA: remember , ARBPIA is for: All articles related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, broadly construed. Huldra (talk) 20:46, 9 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Dank Chicken
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