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:TrevelyanL85A2 has been warned by arbitrators about his recent edits following the arbcom review. They include (a) giving the appearance of editing on behalf of site-banned users to continue their disputes (e.g. the meritless RfAr) (b) relying on the disruption of sock trolls of Echigo mole to "get at me" and (c) "getting at me" by repeatedly casting false aspersions concerning MastCell and me. TrevelyanL85A2 is under a clearly worded topic ban. He is not allowed to mention me or seek litigation against me on wikipedia in the ways that he has now done repeatedly. He was blocked in June for one month for mentioning me in connection with the removal of edits of Echigo mole elsewhere on wikipedia. Over a month ago he unsuccessfullly appealed that block here at AE. Is there a particular reason that Silver seren is coming here one month late to produce [[WP:LAME]] arguments concerning that appeal? [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 05:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
:TrevelyanL85A2 has been warned by arbitrators about his recent edits following the arbcom review. They include (a) giving the appearance of editing on behalf of site-banned users to continue their disputes (e.g. the meritless RfAr) (b) relying on the disruption of sock trolls of Echigo mole to "get at me" and (c) "getting at me" by repeatedly casting false aspersions concerning MastCell and me. TrevelyanL85A2 is under a clearly worded topic ban. He is not allowed to mention me or seek litigation against me on wikipedia in the ways that he has now done repeatedly. He was blocked in June for one month for mentioning me in connection with the removal of edits of Echigo mole elsewhere on wikipedia. Over a month ago he unsuccessfullly appealed that block here at AE. Is there a particular reason that Silver seren is coming here one month late to produce [[WP:LAME]] arguments concerning that appeal? [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 05:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
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*The last time Collect started using the words "battleground behaviour" on this page, he got a logged warning at [[WP:ARBR&I]]. The same thing might very well happen to The Devil's Advocate. He should also probably bear in mind that the purpose of this page is for reports about those sanctioned under [[WP:ARBR&I]] (there are three topic banned editors) or those who have contravened the editing restrictions on articles or their talk pages covered by [[WP:ARBR&I]]. I do not fall into either of those categories, so taking cheap pot shots at me is undoubtedly counter-productive. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 15:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 15:58, 13 July 2012
Shrike
No action taken. Editors generally reminded that it's not necessary or desirable to make a mountain out of a molehill. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Shrike
What we have here is a clear cut case of someone wanting to have their cake and eat it the same time. In the first diff, Shrike makes a massive revert of sourced material, by claiming "All the recent edits turned article to POV nightmare and piece of propaganda." This is a blatant misrepresentation of reality as Nishdani clearly used sources per WP:RS. The sources included were:
Three of these sources are from university presses and the final is a notable scholar. Furthermore, Shrike demanded[1] that Nishdani go through source and explain why it conforms with WP:RS policy. Shrike seems to have a relapse of their principle on Governance of the Gaza Strip article. In this edit, Shrike adds a source to claim that the Gaza Strip is run by a dictatorship. When a reasonable objection is brought up to the source Shrike provided, (as it is just a blanket mention of Hamas in Gaza being a dictatorship without any supporting evidence in a highly partisan essay) s/he responds by saying that they don't have to explain there source, and such challenges should be brought up to the WP:RS/N[2]. When a relevant objection is brought up to blatant hypocrisy, Shrike dismisses it by responding, "The rest of you comment have nothing to do with improving this article please so such comment is not appropriate in this talk page."[3] What is also evident in all of this is Shrike's attempt to WP:HOUND Nishidani. Anyone who looks at Nishidani's edit history can see that he is a well-read/researched editor who obviously spends a lot of time going through sources and making major improvements and additions to articles. On multiple occasions, Shrike has followed Nishidani to articles that 1) s/he have never edited in the past and 2) have extremely low page views. This was the case with his revert on the Yanun article. It is also evident on the Azzam Pasha quotation article. A editor shouldn't be allowed to revert large swaths of sourced material at their whim, and claim WP:BRD (which is rather more of an essay than an actual policy). Editors also shouldn't be allowed to make up rules to push a certain POV, and then break their own made up rules when it suits the same POV. Furthermore, Shrike's persistant hounding of Nishidani is evidence of his/her lack of desire to be a productive, well-balanced, editor on the ARBPIA topic area.
Discussion concerning ShrikeStatement by ShrikeThe are two points that I want to made
Moreover this already discussed on the relevant page but lets see the sources that Nishidani presented
I don't say that all sources are bad but because he mixed bad and good it was very hard to separate between them and thus the reason I have reverted his edit. Now about the Gaza article I never claimed that anyone except me should take the source to the RSN,I suggested that if the source is problematic it could be taken that's all anyhow I have provided justification why this source should be used.[5] if it wasn't enough I would take it to WP:RSN.--Shrike (talk) 05:47, 6 July 2012 (UTC) The usage of bad source is disastrous to the area also calling good faith edits as vandalism [6] only add fuel to very hot situation and its violation of WP:NPA thus I ask to warn Nishidani about WP:NPA and usage of bad sources and warn Asad about filing frivolous AE requests.--Shrike (talk) 11:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC) @asad I have no intention to respond to your personal attack and violation of WP:NPA [7]--Shrike (talk) 14:33, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Response to Nishidani false accusations. First of all WP:ARBPIA area is not so large I follow recent edit though wikiproject watchlist and I have many articles in my watchlist (for example all the settlements articles).Each of the cases that Nishidani brought I have posted in the talk to clarify my position and it was wrong I humbly accepted this and didn’t edit war contrary to Nishidani .As it will be showed in one of the cases that he brought.
If it will be needed I will provide further explanations. There is small group of editor s in WP:ARBPIA area and we continuously interact with each other . Nishidani edits heavily in the topic area I don’t follow him around and revert every his edit but if I see that that if edit that he made is wrong and goes against the Wikipedia polices it’s my duty as Wikipedian to point it to him to build a good Encyclopedia.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning ShrikeMaybe I don't understand what 1RR means properly (but I think I do). This complaint is about someone making 1 revert. I'm puzzled by the motivation of the filing editor to file a report against someone who hasn't violated anything. This is clearly a content dispute and it should be taken to the talk page. Oh, and is anybody ever going to do something about these never-ending baseless reports? Aren't you admins tired of dealing with this nonsense yet? Or is that fun for you maybe... who knows. 99.237.236.218 (talk) 01:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Nishidani. Despite Shrike's interest in me, I decided not to make a complaint of his behaviour. I add this comment only to clarify that Asad thought the behaviour I was troubled by serious enough to make an independent judgement, and write a complaint here. If I do not comment, it would look like this was coordinated by me, which would be unfair to Asad. Everyone has a right to make a call according to his own right without prior clearance from anyone else. I documented what was going on:
I think that this is a behavioural problem. I'd not prefer a punitive sanction at this point. I would appreciate it if, those three reverts and their edit summaries are looked at. I think a fair assessment is that Shrike is not following best policy, using improper policy citations out of context, and obsessed with me. A strong warning not to persist in this erratic behaviour is, in my view, all that is needed at this point. Nishidani (talk) 09:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay. I made clear I'm not interested in sanctions. But the behaviour (not unique to Shrike) is problematical. He turns up at rare pages I edit: he only reverts there, and disappears. Often the context is tagteaming. He does not build the pages where I work. He just pops up to block edits, and the revert that caused Asad to intervene consisted in a massive removal of uncontroversial academic RS. Since admin comments so far think the pattern is flimsy, or the behaviour trivial. I'll cite some examples. In the context of several others who do the same thing, this exercise of 1R as a god-given right, irrespective of the merits of sources, or the need to build (not block) article construction, is deeply problematical in the I/P area and should be addressed. At least here, the purpose is only to draw the issue to your attention.
All I request specifically is that he be told to desist, to work constructively and contribute to articles he's interested in, rather than tending to just, as his contribs show, talking or removing material other editors add.Nishidani (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Comment by AnkhMorpork
The recent additions were replete with unreliable sources that should never have been used. Overtures to improve the sourcing were ignored and Shrike made a necessary edit to ensure a semblance of NPOV and reliable sourcing remained in the article. Yes it was a large removal, yes there were loads of crap sources. Instead of then resorting to high-handed AE action, disputants should have sought dispute resolution and improved the sources. Asad states "If Nishidani is bringing in "activist" sources, what does that make Efraim Inbar" to claim supposed hypocrisy. This is an absurd comparison. Inbar is a professor in Political Studies at Bar-Ilan University, the director of its Center for Strategic Studies, was a visiting professor at Johns Hopkins University and Georgetown University, a visiting fellow of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, and has lectured at Harvard, MIT, Columbia, Oxford, and Yale. He has written over 60 articles in professional journals. To equate him with a nescient insignificant activist demonstrates shocking judgment and an inability to determine what constitutes a RS. Ankh.Morpork 11:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I probably could make this statement in the section below, and maybe I should have, but I have a tendency to blather which might make that section longer than it needs to be. So far as I can see, the essence of the complaint is that Shrike has been hounding Nishidani, and the basis of this request is, apparently, one of a series of actions of such hounding. Shrike knows, or at least should know, that hounding is unacceptable as per WP:HOUND. Nishidani himself, per his comments above, doesn't think that the houding necessarily requires action of this type, although he would like the hounding to stop. So far as I can tell, though, that hounding is not in and of itself necessarily a sufficient basis for invoking the arbitration here. And I can't see the specific nature of the complaint in and of itself necessarily sufficient grounds for application of the Arb ruling either. There may well be a basis for some sort of RfC/U on the basis of the hounding, or maybe an ANI posting to that effect, but I have to think that based on the evidence the edits which promoted this request for enforcement of arbitration is probably not of a serious enough degree to merit action here. John Carter (talk) 15:31, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Time to kiss and make upYes, unacceptable; no, not inappropriate to raise a complaint; but, despite the confrontational stance elicited by this venue, hopefully the timely warning will have now been heeded and there's nothing an apology for the time-wasting or an open/tacit agreement to be more circumspect in the future can't mend; perhaps, if certain topic areas bring out the worst in an editor, he/she might find it soothing to try their hand for a while at molluscs or something equivalent, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Shrike
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TrevelyanL85A2
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning TrevelyanL85A2
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBR&I. The only appropriate remedy here appears to be an indefinite site-ban. That could happen here or could be enforced, even without a motion, by any member of arbcom.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Not applicable. This user is banned in absolutely crystal clear terms from making arbcom requests of the kind he has is attempting to make, particularly even the slightest thing which mentions my name. He has no idea what he's doing and his "activities" have no place whatsover on wikipedia.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
TrevelyanL85A2 is topic-banned from starting any kind of arbcom case involving me. He is doing so now on behalf of his friends, two site-banned users Captain Occam and Ferahgo-the-Assassin. This editor is hot off a one month AE block and has now apparently set his sights on creating maximal disruption on wikipedia. From statements on the arbitration committee talk page, he has been chatting with his DeviantArt friends (two of whom are arbcom site-banned users, both highly disruptive and neither of them particularly honest). TrevelyanL85A2 seems to be out to make mischief on their behalf. TrevelyanL85A2 has shown no interest whatsover in being involved in even the tiniest weeniest way in building a high quality encyclopedia to promote human knowledge, which is the main purpose of wikipedia. He should be site-banned from wikipedia. (That should apply equally well to any editors that arbcom have deemed to be associated with him and who choose to support his frivolous request there.) An administrator unconnected with arbcom should simply block the account indefinitely without allowing this to proceed further. Mathsci (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- TrevelaynL85A2 cannot mention me anywhere on wikipedia. What is it that he doesn't understand about that? Mathsci (talk) 20:37, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- How far does TrevelyanL85A2 think he can go? [13] He and his DeviantArt friends are making a mockery of wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- As MastCell can confirm, I did not communicate with him about TrevelyanL85A2 in this context, and I have stated this explicitly on wikipedia. If TrevelyanL85A2 wishes to continue presenting his own very particular take on this on wikipedia, that is his own responsibility. If he does not retract his claims and make a public apology, why should he be allowed to continue editing here? As far as I am concerned, this is clearly a disrutption-only account at the beck and call of two highly disruptive site-banned editors. The proof of that is not the gratuitous attack on me but on MastCell. Mathsci (talk) 21:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- TrevelyanL85A2 has made the following set of edits on User talk:The Devil's Advocate.[14][15][16] In the second diff he has encouraged others to start an RfC/U on me. He is presumably aware that such a suggestion is yet another serious violation of his extended topic ban. Given the recent information provided on-wiki about off-wiki contacts amongst the DeviantArt group, there seems to be little doubt that TrevelyanL85A2 has been in contact with the two site-banned editors, Occam and Ferahgo, and is now continuing their own campaign as a proxy. Indeed, as Courcelles has pointed out on another arbcom page,[17] that seems to be all he is doing at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- As MastCell can confirm, I did not communicate with him about TrevelyanL85A2 in this context, and I have stated this explicitly on wikipedia. If TrevelyanL85A2 wishes to continue presenting his own very particular take on this on wikipedia, that is his own responsibility. If he does not retract his claims and make a public apology, why should he be allowed to continue editing here? As far as I am concerned, this is clearly a disrutption-only account at the beck and call of two highly disruptive site-banned editors. The proof of that is not the gratuitous attack on me but on MastCell. Mathsci (talk) 21:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- How far does TrevelyanL85A2 think he can go? [13] He and his DeviantArt friends are making a mockery of wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
TDA appears to be trolling here. Mathsci (talk) 22:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- If TDA disagrees with the results of the WP:ARBR&I review, he had the opportunity in May to express his objections. He did not do so. If he now feels that there should be an amendment or clarification of that review, this is not the correct venue. TDA will probably receive a an official logged warning if they continue making unhelpful remarks here. A sock troll of Echigo mole set up an abusive RfAr which was instantly removed by Courcelles and the sock CU-blocked. The trolling notifications were removed from all the user talk pages. Describing that as disruption is singularly unhelpful and clueless. Mathsci (talk) 06:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- The purpose of this page is to enforce arbcom sanctions, not to question the validity of those sanctions. The response of wikipedians to the edits of Keystone Crow are not remotely relevant here (or anywhere on wikipedia). He was blocked by a checkuser as an obvious disruptive troll sock of a community banned wikistalker. Mathsci (talk) 09:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Update The RfAr of TrevelyanL85A2 has now been declined as numerically impossible.[18] Shortly after that posting of Roger Davies, TrevelyanL85A2 asserted that he was withdrawing the request.[19] In that diff, he still does not seem to be heeding the warnings that have been given to him and/or his friend SightWatcher. They apply equally well to both. As MastCell has carefully explained,[20] his failed RfAr relied on an extremely bad faith assumption which was demonstrably false. It involved casting aspersions on both MastCell and me; he repeatedly made those claims during his unsuccessful appeal and continued to do so after his one month block ended with this RfAr. The name "Mathsci" appeared multiple times throughout the request, despite TrevelyanL85A2's claim that it primarily concerned MastCell. (There is an unsurprising similarity with the aspersions cast by Occam back in December 2010 concerning Roger Davies and me.)
Following his unblock, TrevelyanL85A2 has given every appearance of continuing the dispute/campaign of Occam and Ferahgo as a proxy. SightWatcher has disclosed on-wiki that the DeviantArt group has been conferring off-wiki during TrevelyanL85A2's block. TrevelyanL85A2's most recent diffs still show that he has not yet relinquished the idea of encouraging wikipedia processes that will affect me and my editing directly and adversely. That is completely at odds with his extended topic ban and the advice and warnings he has received from multiple editors, administrators and arbitrators. In the last diff, instead of heeding those warnings, he has preferred to listen to The Devil's Advocate, who has stated several times now that the arbcom sanctions were not appropriate. The Devil's Advocate has no authority to misguide TrevelyanL85A2 in this way. In the diff above, TrevelyanL85A2 writes about "mixed messages" when everybody except The Devil's Advocate is telling him exactly the same thing. Mathsci (talk) 10:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- MBisanz, EdJohnston and others commented on the problematic posts of SightWatcher (easy enough to find) and both gave warnings to him. One of the posts was even redacted by AGK. Presumably TrevelyanL85A2 read all those posts since they related directly to him. Despite that, he apparently took no notice of them. Mathsci (talk) 18:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- Silver seren This editor has already received a logged warning under WP:ARBR&I. [21] Otherwise what he has written below seems unrelated in any way to wikipedia policy. If Echigo mole, a serial long term wikistalker, serial puppetmaster and community banned user, adds trolling and disruptive content anywhere on wikipedia it can be removed immediately per WP:DENY. Johnuniq has already described the incident involving the abusive RfAr made by the sock troll Keystone Crow, all of whose trolling notifications were removed by me.
- TrevelyanL85A2 has been warned by arbitrators about his recent edits following the arbcom review. They include (a) giving the appearance of editing on behalf of site-banned users to continue their disputes (e.g. the meritless RfAr) (b) relying on the disruption of sock trolls of Echigo mole to "get at me" and (c) "getting at me" by repeatedly casting false aspersions concerning MastCell and me. TrevelyanL85A2 is under a clearly worded topic ban. He is not allowed to mention me or seek litigation against me on wikipedia in the ways that he has now done repeatedly. He was blocked in June for one month for mentioning me in connection with the removal of edits of Echigo mole elsewhere on wikipedia. Over a month ago he unsuccessfullly appealed that block here at AE. Is there a particular reason that Silver seren is coming here one month late to produce WP:LAME arguments concerning that appeal? Mathsci (talk) 05:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
- The last time Collect started using the words "battleground behaviour" on this page, he got a logged warning at WP:ARBR&I. The same thing might very well happen to The Devil's Advocate. He should also probably bear in mind that the purpose of this page is for reports about those sanctioned under WP:ARBR&I (there are three topic banned editors) or those who have contravened the editing restrictions on articles or their talk pages covered by WP:ARBR&I. I do not fall into either of those categories, so taking cheap pot shots at me is undoubtedly counter-productive. Mathsci (talk) 15:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Here is the diff for the record. [22]
Discussion concerning TrevelyanL85A2
Statement by TrevelyanL85A2
I'm following the advice I was given by ArbCom as well as I know how to do. I was told at AE to request arbitration on the mailing list, and when I did so, I was told by ArbCom to make a public arbitration request after my block expired. I'm simply following the instructions I was given by ArbCom. They knew what knew what my request was about when they told me to make it in public, and I don't believe they would have told me to do this if they meant to disallow it.
- Re to Courcelles: I don't think my request is commenting on Mathsci's conduct. I'm not criticising Mathsci's behaviour, I'm only referring to him in order to criticise MastCell's behaviour. My understanding was that there's a difference between "referring to editor X" and "commenting on editor X's conduct", and this is why it wasn't a contradiction for ArbCom to tell me I should make my request in public even though I couldn't comment on Mathsci's conduct. Did I misunderstand that?--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 21:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- Re to MBisanz: Before I withdraw my request, I would like to clarify with ArbCom (via e-mail) what they wanted me to do when they advised me to make the request in public. I thought I was following their instructions, but I must have misunderstood them. Please give me time to discuss it with them and understand their instructions to me before I withdraw it.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Re to EdJohnston: I was told by Jclemens here that I'm allowed to restore Echigo Mole's comments in my user talk, and other editors like Collect and Nyttend have also been allowed to do this. I'm defending my own ability to restore his comments, not his socking itself. I'm also defending my right to allow people to post on my talk page without others editing parts out of it without my consent. However, why would I be prohibited from talking about Echigo Mole? As far as I know he's never edited R&I articles.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 05:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Statement by The Devil's Advocate
From my reading, Trev is allowed to comment when his conduct is raised as an issue and to engage in dispute resolution. The arbitration request to me seems evident of the editor's lack of experience with the practice, but points to obvious issues with the restrictions. Mathsci has repeatedly edited Trev's user talk page against Trev's explicit request that he cease. His request for arbitration deals directly with that issue of Mathsci's conduct towards him and, as such, would seem completely valid under the wording of the topic ban. I think an arbitration request was the wrong way to go, but the restriction was terribly worded and seems too much like a one-way interaction ban with a vaguely-defined group of users, which is destined to fail.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- Math, I am simply concerned at what appears to be a poorly-worded and poorly-considered restriction on an editor and your frequent use of it to push for this editor to get site-banned, something you were flat-out demanding before the restriction was enacted. While I have only a little knowledge of this dispute and the situation in the R&I topic area, it is not difficult to figure out that there would be considerably less drama if you would just stop provoking Trev. Edit-warring with him on his talk page over those comments even after his repeated requests that you stop, something you only did with Trev, is obviously going to create friction and you clearly have not made any effort to defuse the resulting tension. Rather, you have only heightened it by repeatedly demanding a site-ban over his complaints about your actions on his talk page. For heaven's sake man, Trev is topic-banned. Should he edit the R&I topic area repeatedly despite the ban, you will get the site-ban you desire anyway and should he stay away from the topic area and you then why the hell does it matter if he keeps editing articles about video games and Indian warships? Demanding a site-ban every single time he utters your name reeks of a vendetta, especially when you are making a point of maneuvering yourself into disputes with him in the first place.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- I assure you Math, had I known such a bizarre restriction was being imposed I would have objected. The disruption does not come from removing the comments the first time, but from how you responded to Trev restoring them. When he asked you not to continue editing his talk page, you should have stopped. Instead you repeated the act several more times. Did you expect Trev to just be quiet about your conduct as you repeatedly jumped into his userspace to do something there he expressly asked you to stop doing? Obviously, Trev's RFAR is prompted by all that since it is what led to Mast blocking him and removing his talk page privileges so I fail to see how it is not relevant that you are the one who started all that and are now demanding he be site-banned for mentioning your unavoidable connection with the situation.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- The response is relevant if your response in particular is provoking the actions you are using to push for a site-ban. If you are actively picking a fight with Trev because you want him site-banned, I don't see why an admin should indulge your demand that he be site-banned for responding to your provocations.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I assure you Math, had I known such a bizarre restriction was being imposed I would have objected. The disruption does not come from removing the comments the first time, but from how you responded to Trev restoring them. When he asked you not to continue editing his talk page, you should have stopped. Instead you repeated the act several more times. Did you expect Trev to just be quiet about your conduct as you repeatedly jumped into his userspace to do something there he expressly asked you to stop doing? Obviously, Trev's RFAR is prompted by all that since it is what led to Mast blocking him and removing his talk page privileges so I fail to see how it is not relevant that you are the one who started all that and are now demanding he be site-banned for mentioning your unavoidable connection with the situation.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, MBisanz, if that is the case then the restriction is even less clear than I thought. The wording is as follows:
TrevelyanL85A2 is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned.
The wording technically restricts him from participating in said discussions if his conduct is not mentioned. No explicit prohibition on commenting about any specific editor is mentioned. My understanding of bans is that the exemption for dispute resolution and noticeboard discussion does free them up to comment about editors and subjects they are otherwise restricted from mentioning so long as it is relevant. In other words, the comments at the Arb case request are normal as part of an attempt at resolving a conduct dispute over administrative actions taken against Trev by an admin regarding Mathsci. Should Math be in private communication with Mast and the two of them have a close friendly relationship, it does raise questions about his use of admin tools against editors such as Trev in support of Math, including where he has used them at Math's apparent behest. Were Trev to say, "MastCell deleted the pages at the request of another user" and did not provide the diff that would show it was Math or make any mention of who that user was, then there would be immediate demands that he name the user in question and provide evidence to establish the relevance.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Your example points to the problem. If someone is defacing your property by proxy you should not be restricted from noting this fact. That is the problem with one-way interaction bans. Suggesting that Mathsci can repeatedly engage Trev in a disruptive manner with Trev having no ability to complain about this behavior leads to obvious problems. It only creates a recipe for further disruption to the project, not the opposite. We can't really know what would have happened had Mathsci let the comment from a sock on Trev's page slide, or if he had been consistent with his behavior towards other editors by not edit-warring with Trev over the issue, but that is not what happened. All I can say is that Trev was not editing Wikipedia at all for months before this happened, and after Math edit wars with Trev over the user talk comments this stuff happens. Cause and effect.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Cailil, as I have been trying to point out repeatedly, this is not a matter of Trev following the topic area and inserting himself into this situation for no apparent reason. The timeline leading up to the recent incidents goes like this:
- 17:41, 6 January 2012 Trev is formally notified of the discretionary sanctions. Trev makes no further R&I-related edits in articlespace after this talk-page discussion.
- 21:31, 8 January 2012 Ferahgo requested an amendment to ARBR&I and mentions Trev. At no point does Trev appear to be notified that the case has been initiated and makes no comments on the request.
- 22:35, 17 January 2012 EdJohnston leaves a comment notifying Trev of an AE discussion. He does not comment there either and Ed notes that he was not proposing sanctions because had stopped editing the topic area. Furthermore he suggests Trev refrain from getting involved in the topic area further.
- 23:39, 5 May 2012 The first notification Trev receives about the amendment case that ultimately leads to the ban we are discussing, but again he appears to make no comment and the case is closed about a week later with the topic ban issued.
- 06:07, 26 May 2012 Trev is notified of an amendment to the case. All of that constitutes the background. By this point no edits had been made by Trev to the topic area in close to five months.
- 10:58, 27 May 2012 An IP sock, apparently of Echigo, commented at Trev's topic page the day after the review was amended. This sets off the period of edit-warring. Up to that point all indications are that Trev was staying out of anything involving the topic area, including an apparent lack of interest in commenting in his own defense. However, the situation in his userspace forces the matter.
Did he have any need to "track" the topic area or the editors in question to find out the information listed on the case request? No. Anyone taking a cursory glance at Mathsci's contributions surrounding his edit-warring over the banned editor's comments would become immediately familiar with all the shenanigans Trev noted.
So, I fail to see the legitimacy of your accusation that Trev was somehow not constructively staying out of the topic area. Trev was not editing Wikipedia at all until that nonsense started happening on his user page and that's gotten all this started, which I sincerely doubt was his intent. It's like if a bunch of guys show up at your house and pee on your rug. All you want is to replace your rug cause it really tied the room together and, next thing you know, you're getting involved in faked kidnappings and everyone's trying to kill you when you really just wanted to get your rug back so you can go back to bowling in peace.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- Sight has not said anywhere on-wiki that the DeviantArt group was discussing this situation. Sight only specifically mentions discussing the issue with Trev and that Trev was e-mailing other people about his desire for arbitration after a week of not getting a response from ArbCom. By "mixed messages" he is talking about the suggestions that he raise these issues publicly to ArbCom only to be told he is violating the ban by doing just that. It is not about what I have said. As to him mentioning your name in the request, there is no ban on mentioning your name. The ban was that he could not participate in discussions about your conduct and he was told by an Arb that he could not comment on your conduct. Seems to me that he clearly tried to respect that.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- It is not clear if AGK redacted those comments on the basis that the mere mention of you was a problem, or if it was more reasonably due to the possibility that the comment could provoke a response. When Ed and MBisanz warned Sight it is clear they were talking about the possibility of Sight filing an arbitration request on Trev's behalf, in partial response to a direct query on that point by Sight. Your suggestion that Trev was somehow not heeding those warnings, presuming he did read them, is not meaningful as the warnings did not directly address him or the question of whether so much as uttering your name was prohibited. I should note the restriction against Trev is not worded as a normal interaction ban one-way or otherwise, where mentioning an editor would be prohibited unless the other editor violated or is perceived to have violated the ban. The restriction seemingly allows interaction with you so long as it is not to discuss your conduct. It is a thin line to tread, but a situation where he is disputing the involvement of an admin regarding administrative actions supporting your position that includes a block against Trev and removal of his user talk privleges that resulted from interactions between you and a banned editor on Trev's talk page seems to be an obvious situation where mentioning you is unavoidable. Really it is an example of the problem with these one-way restrictions since it seems punitive to the extreme to bar Trev from complaining about conduct in his userspace.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:05, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
On that point Seren raised, it should be noted that an Arb cited that exact kind of activity from Mathsci as problematic battleground behavior. Obviously, Math did not give much regard to that comment. I also would add that Trev has removed the material in the case request and said he made the wrong choice so I think taking action at this stage would be inappropriate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
TrevelyanL85A2 is banned from commenting about Mathsci. Echigo Mole is the sock that is harassing Mathsci. Commenting about Echigo is just begging for further tests of limits of his ban. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Trev's request to Arbcom was declined[23]. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Silver seren
Mathsci has no right whatsoever to be editing TrevelyanL85A2's talk page beyond general notifications. Anything else can be seen as provoking an incident in order to force TrevelyanL85A2 to break the ban. Such instigation by Mathsci can be seen here where he removes a comment by an IP address that has absolutely nothing to do with Mathsci. Trevelyan reverts him and states, "I would rather you not edit my user page. Thank you." Mathsci then reverted again here, saying, "rv edit per WP:BAN - please consult a member of arbcom in case of doubt - thanks)". Regardless of whether there is any truth in this statement, Mathsci should absolutely not be the one to be enforcing the ban. Trevelyan then reverted him back again, responding, "I have asked you to stay off my page. Please respect that, and do not edit my user OR talk pages again. Thank you."
Mathsci then on the 10th removed the Arbitration notification. Yes, banned user, whatever. However, not all comments by banned users everywhere are reverted, nor should they be. It is quite clear that all of this is meant to just be harassment of Trevelyan and it also appears that Johnuniq was involved in both cases of harassment as well, so take that for what you will. User talk pages may "belong to Wikipedia", yes, but no one has the right to remove comments from them that the user who the page is for wants to be there. SilverserenC 03:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning TrevelyanL85A2
Result concerning TrevelyanL85A2
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I don't think we can treat this as an infraction, if the arbitrary committee encouraged him to do this. Maybe one of them could clarify if they actually meant a request like the one that was filed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- I would disagree. It might not be an infraction to discuss Mastcell, who blocked him. It is a violation to mention Mathsci in his discussion of Mastcell's conduct. While it might be hard to do from a grammatical perspective, I believe Trevelyan's hands are tied by the Arbcom restriction to only discussing Mastcell if he can do so in a manner that does not reference Mathsci. I'm leaning towards a block of three months unless an Arb tells me they specifically said he could mention Mathsci's editing on-wiki. MBisanz talk 20:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- TrevelyanL85A2 was told via e-mail: "Yes, you are restricted from making comments on Mathsci's conduct". Courcelles 21:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you Courcelles for clarifying. Specifically, I find that TrevelyanL85A2's statement "This is concerning because MastCell's involvement in the dispute was privately requested by Mathsci:" (emphasis added) includes at least one reference to Mathsci's conduct. If TrevelyanL85A2 withdraws his Arbcom request and agrees that if he ever references Mathsci again on-wiki he will be indefinitely blocked, I am willing to forgo a block at this time. If he cannot agree to that, then I will implement a three-month block for violation of his topic ban. MBisanz talk 21:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- @TDA: As I read the topic ban, TrevelyanL85A2 may only comment in discussions concerning their own conduct; not the conduct of others towards them. That may result in the appearance that their hands have been unfairly tied and Mathsci may or may not be taking advantage of TrevelyanL85A2's restriction, but Arbcom has reviewed the situation previously and decided the way disruption would be resolved in this area is by preventing TrevelyanL85A2 from making any comments about Mathsci, even those regarding Mathsci's conduct towards TrevelyanL85A2. As I understand it, the primary goal is the cessation of disruption, not fairness or equality. Also, it is worth noting that TrevelyanL85A2 has not been entirely silenced with regard to Mathsci, as he is free to email requests concerning Mathsci to Arbcom. MBisanz talk 23:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- @TDA: That interpretation might be more plausible if he had not named Mathsci as a party to the dispute. If he is a filing a case where Mathsci is a party, then he is not simply referencing Mathsci's name in passing as a bystander. Also, there is no evidence that Arbcom intended to leave TrevelyanL85A2 the right to report bad acts if Mathsci was somehow involved in. Sort of like "even if you see person X paying person Y to pee on your lawn, you cannot report it to the police if it involves discussing person X." MBisanz talk 01:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I would take no action on this complaint, but only because I believe that we should leave it to the arbs and clerks to deal with any alleged topic ban violations on arbcom case pages. T. Canens (talk) 00:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- That's a fair point. I asked at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Clerks#Question_on_protocol, because Courcelles is an arb and he commented here without saying we should leave it to them. MBisanz talk 01:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- It might be reasonable to put this AE complaint against Trevelyan on hold until the committee has reached a conclusion on the Arb request opened by Trevelyan, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Admin Involvement and Handling of Edits by Sockpuppets. I read Trevelyan's RFAR as a complaint about restraints that admins have put on the editing of Echigo Mole. Defending Echigo Mole is surely a prohibited activity for Trevelyan, leaving aside the fact that he names Mathsci in his complaint which is also prohibited. By the time the committee reaches their conclusion on his request for arbitration, we should know if they saw any good-faith purpose to Trevelyan's request. EdJohnston (talk) 03:47, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Tim & Ed - we should either place this on hold or wait for the Arbs call on it (but at this point with 5 declines it is unlikely to be accepted). However I also agree with MBisanz. If the Arbs don't deal with this in their decision then it'd be fair to say we see this is a direct breach of the topic ban (mention of Mathsci and as Ed points out the mention of Echigo Mole). In my view 3 months would be an appropriate sanction, as it's clear that rather than finding other things to do on wiki Trevelyan is following the area he is topic banned from and the editors he is banned from interacting with, in so doing he's both breached the spirit & the letter of the ban--Cailil talk 01:57, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Doctor Franklin
All parties issued a trout, but otherwise no action taken and the page will remain protected. Similar reports will lead to further trouting, and possibly more serious sanctions as well. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Doctor Franklin
He had been warned against his edits and called to discuss. He made comments there but per BRD he did not wait for consensus and then adds this NPA accusations. The said user's newly registered account is shown in the reverts per before. The 1RR template on the talk page was only just added (by me), so im not sure if he needs a warning or a block.
[24] - and that shows he has no idea of editing pracices and intends to go on.
Discussion concerning Doctor FranklinStatement by Doctor FranklinTo whom it may concern: The complaintant is attempting to invoke a rule pertaining to Arab-Isreali conflicts to suppress dissenting views on the issue of Yitzhak Shamir's family history in Poland and Belarus during the Nazi occupation of Soviet Belarus. Neither Poles nor Belarusians are Arabs, so this rule cannot apply. However some Israelis are dual nationals of other countries such as Poland. The dispute here is not disputing the Holocaust or how horrible it was. The dispute here is what happened to one man in one place in modern Belarus. The complaintant is asking you in employ a tortured construction of this rule to suppress legitimate dissent. I have never attempted to edit a Wiki text previously, but this particular text was so one sided that I felt obligated to fix it. I have a degree in History and I have traveled through out Poland and Eastern Europe. The complaintant has persisted in violating the WP policy on Exceptional claims require exceptional sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources The exceptional claim here is that Yitzhak Shamir's father was killed by a specific ethnic group without a shred of evidence from anyone who was there as to what happened. The complaintant cites two sources to support his exceptional claim: 1) a published statement Yitzhak Shamir himself who was not present at the location at the time, and 2)an alleged footnote from Jan Nowak-Jeziorański, A NEED FOR COMPENSATION which was published in the Polish newspaper Rzeczpospolita, January 26, 2001: http://wiez.free.ngo.pl/jedwabne/article/21.html I have read the original work and it is now available online and it does not read as quoted in the citation by the complaintant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir#cite_ref-4
I also intend to forward this issue to the Polish news media since what has been published is libelous to the Polish people.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor Franklin (talk • contribs) 19:33, 9 July 2012 (UTC) The Polish media was involved in this case already by the complaintant because he/she cited text in article as written by a Polish author in a Polish newspaper which that author did not write and that newspaper did not publish. Wikipedia has policies against this and copyright violations. I don't know the law exactly in Poland, but in some countries changing another author's work can be a violation of his/her copyright or other intellectual property rights. That's not a legal threat, but citation back to Wikipedia's policy. What that author did write in that article was about the defamation of the Poles, "To conclude from the 1941 pogroms that the Holocaust was the common work of Poles and Germans is a libel. All who feel themselves to be Polish have the responsibility to defend themselves against such slander." I agree with what the author actually wrote, and I am proud to have acted. My point is that is one thing report that Shamir made allegations against the Poles in his father's death. It is another thing for Wikipedia to treat his unsupported opinions as fact, which is what the complaintant has been involved in promoting, using a distorted source. Perhaps Wikipedia needs to have a specific policy about allegations of ethnic violence? Really, I am happy to have the topic locked. It needed to be done because these people turned the page into a completely one sided pro-Shamir puff piece. I didn't know that it was possible to have it locked or I would have requested that. I am sure that there is more which has been written about Shamir in Polish by respected Polish journalists and scholars. Their contributions should be welcome. Considering that Shamir lived in Poland, was educated there, and may have retained dual Polish citizenship until his death, it was more than appropriate to invite Polish participation on the topic of his life. I stand by my decisions. I did try to discuss this in talk. It is the complaintant here who should be sanctioned for promoting a distorted source and not acting professionally, and being hostile to a new editor. I really don't know if I want to continue editing after this. I was just trying to fix something that was obviously very, very wrong.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor Franklin (talk • contribs) 06:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Doctor FranklinThis off-wiki canvassing might be of interest here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2012 (UTC) This user has a talent he disrupting two areas of discretionary sanctions simultaneously WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBEE--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC) Not involved here, but his last sentence needs clarification, via WP:DOLT. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:34, 9 July 2012 (UTC) Note: Quazi-legal sounding threat was removed afterwards. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 11:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Statement by ZScarpiaThe statement that Shamir's father was "stoned" to death is taken from a Haaretz blog, which, I'd guess, may not be subjected to the editorial controls which would allow it to be used as a reliable source. I've searched online and in various printed books for details of how Shamir's family members died, but information is hard to find. Two Times of Israel articles (the first of which is cited elsewhere in the Wikipedia article on Shamir) strongly suggest that Shamir himself was the source of information about the deaths:
Though personally I don't believe that Shamir would have invented or embroidered the story, since Shamir himself appears to be the its source, it would be better from the neutrality point of view to state in the article something to the effect that "Shamir, speaking in 1989, said that ..." rather than relating the account as a fact in the Wikipedia voice. Perhaps somebody could check Shamir's biography to see what is written there. ← ZScarpia 16:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Lihaas has mentioned the possibility of blocking Doctor_Franklin. For DF to be sanctioned under WP:ARBPIA, he would, of course need to have first been given a warning, either explicitly or constructively. As far as I can see, DF has not been warned previously about the WP:ARBPIA sanctions in place. Neither of the warnings listed above mention the WP:ARBPIA case or follow the pattern of the normal formal warning. In addition, the first warning listed accuses DF of vandalism, an accusation which is frowned on unless any edits are obviously vandalism. As far as I can see, none of DF's under either incarnation on the Shamir article actually were. ← ZScarpia 19:11, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
@ZScarpia, You will note that none of the direct quotes from Shamir which have been found to date mention that Shamir's father was killed by Poles. The mention of Poles appears only in the article and could be the attribution of the writer or editor. This is why historians prefer to use first hand sources and not rely upon what someone thought he said, or a footnote in a book which itself has no source or is taken out of context. Yet, Lihaas insists, and insists and insists that Shamir said his father was killed by Poles, despite no direct quote from Shamir or other supporting evidence, and despite the unlikeness of Poles having been in Belarus before the Polish-Soviet War of 1920 or after the Soviet conquest of Western Belarus and deportation of Poles to Siberia in 1939-40. I really did try to reason and discuss, but there is no reasoning with someone who made comments that Shamir was entitled to some special treatment because he was an Israeli prime minister, or thinks that Poles and Belarusians are Arabs. You will also note that the footnote that I deleted, and Lihaas continued to reinstate refers to Shamir as "Polish born" despite the fact that the main article states that Shamir was born in Belarus in Imperial Russia. Her "proof" is in conflict with the main page and community, while my entries where in harmony with it. I simply added information, and Lihaas is determined to delete any historical information which detracts from the premise of her "facts" that Shamir's father was killed by Poles, even when that information simply refers to other Wikipedia entries. The larger problem here may be an Isreali/Jewish usage of the term "Poles" to include people who are not ethnic Poles, i.e., Lithuanians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Ruthanians, etc. (I also mentioned this in the Talk section...) They would seem not to understand the ethnic complexity of the region, nor do they appear to want to learn about it. It is easier for them to simply call all of these groups which existed in the 1920-1939 Polish political state "Poles", even after that multi-ethnic state collapsed in September 1939 and has never returned as such. They apparently don't understand that their usage of "Poles" is ignorant and offensive to people who are truly ethnic Poles. What is more disturbing is that people like Lihaas are determined to prevent a reasoned discussion of that ignorance. Result concerning Doctor Franklin
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Dailycare
Dailycare is now clearly aware of the ARBPIA sanctions, and if unclear on any of them, is welcome to ask for clarification. This serves as the required notice/warning. No other action is taken. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 20:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dailycare
The Six Day War article contains conspicuous ARBPIA warnings [31] and Dailycare edits near exclusively in the topic area. In addition, Dailycare has previously commented on these boards [32] and has also been the subject of a prior AE in which he escaped sanction.
The above-noted edits demonstrate that Dailycare has engaged in gross source misrepresentations on multiple occasions. Repeated and egregious distortions of this nature should not be tolerated in any topic area. This is not just a one-time affair, chalked up to carelessness or sloppiness. It represents a deliberate and repeated mendacious attempt to distort and misrepresent sources. This type of conduct undermines the fundamentals of Wikipedia and should not be tolerated in any topic area, least of all a contentious topic area such as the Arab-Israeli topic area.
Discussion concerning DailycareStatement by DailycareThis request seems to be a waste of time, but let's go through the points nonetheless: Concerning the first three points the source states, inter alia, "The juridical status of the Gulf of Aqaba (the Gulf) and the Strait of Tiran (the Strait) has been a subject of heated controversy between the Arab nations and Israel since the establishment of Israel as a state in 1948." This is the first sentence in the "Introduction" part of the document. The source also says, in the same "Introduction" section: "Ships proceeding to or from Israel's port of Elath must cross into Egypt's territorial waters when passing through the Strait of Tiran, and into the territorial waters of either Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia when navigating through the Gulf. Israel relies on unrestricted access to the waterways for trade as well as for protection of its own security interests. Israel, therefore, has argued consistently for the most lenient characterization, under international law, of both waterways, in order to ensure the freedom of navigation necessary to protect its economic and political interests. Conversely, the Arab nations bordering the Gulf of Aqaba and Strait of Tiran have historically resisted Israel's characterization of these waters as international, asserting Arab sovereignty over the Gulf of Aqaba." Therefore, saying either that there is controversy on the legal status of Tiran, or that "some states" consider it an international waterway, is more in-line with the source than simply saying outright that it was considered an international waterway. Saying just that it was considered an international waterway amounts to a rather selective and creative use of the source. Trying to enforce this selective use in this AE request could be considered when deciding which user to sanction due to this AE request. Concerning the last point, Jiujitsuguy alleges that I'd have attributed the casualty figures to the Segev reference. This isn't the case, since the Segev reference was in the text already prior to the edit. If I recall correctly I got the figures from the infobox on the Samu Incident article as Nableezy correctly guesses below. A correct reaction to this (indeed there was no inline citation for the casualty figures in my edit) would have been to either insert a [citation needed] template, or simply look up a source. On the other hand, the sentence already has a wikilink to the Samu Incident article. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning DailycareI can't possibly be the only person shaking their head at the request. JJG's distortion above far exceeds any "distortion" in DC's edits.
This is one of the more blatant displays of attempting to use this board in an underhanded manner. None of these edits merits any punitive action, not one of them. To call any of them "gross source distortion" after things like this is just obscene. nableezy - 18:22, 9 July 2012 (UTC) I must say this report strikes me as frivolous. Even in the fourth edit, which does not adequately support the information, the material added is hardly consequential. The death toll is only slightly higher and the figures for wounded tend to widely vary in these situations and this variance is not terribly meaningful. While not clearly indicating what citation is backing material and copying information from another article without checking for sourcing is generally poor editing practice, it is not even remotely a sanction-worthy action with such minimal changes. I also find the comment about Dailycare being warned to be suggestive as the comment "escaped sanction" makes it seem like there was some danger of sanction when that prior report was clearly a frivolous one.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:52, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Dailycare
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Dalai lama ding dong
Dalai lama ding dong topic-banned indefinitely from pages relating to Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. MastCell Talk 18:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Dalai lama ding dong
Dalai Lama Ding Dong has been repeatedly warned and banned for a 1rr violation and for violating a topic ban three times. What exacerbates the issue is that these edits constitute further source misrepresentation which is all too familiar. His edit summary of "Removed POV wording" followed by a later acknowledgment of not having seen the relevant source indicates his tendentious approach. DLDD was explicitly warned by The Blade of the Northern Lights after similar misconduct, "he is advised to be cautious editing in the topic area and to be especially conscious of properly representing sources. He is further advised that infractions in the future will most likely lead to stiffer sanctions." Please view here for background.
Discussion concerning Dalai lama ding dongStatement by Dalai lama ding dongNote that I requested that the source be identified for the phrase 'huge volume' here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Media_coverage_of_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict&diff=500539763&oldid=500227371 I also directed attention to the talk page here whttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Media_coverage_of_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict#Tweet_about_IDF_airstrike where i stated that I can not find any reference to a huge volume of twitter users in the present sources, despite a claim that it is there, so please produce the RS here that states that before restoring those words. Also note my re wording, only the JP says that the tweeter falsely claimed that the girl was killed in an IDF airstrike the night before. The rest do not say that she falsely made that claim, only that the claim was made. Ie only one source states the word falsely in relation to the date. The reference to the claim about the date appears to relate to the caption to the photo. There is NO reference to a date in the tweet. Unless someone can provide an RS that states that she captioned the photo, and did not use an incorrect Reuters caption, then this claim can not be allowed to stand due to BLP.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 19:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC) There s therefore no misrepresentation here. I then went to attribute the words huge volume, and mistakenly attributed them to the individual, and not to the Jerusalem Post. I acknowledged that here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jiujitsuguy#Media_coverage_IP_conflict_tweet_section. see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1948_Arab–Israeli_War For the Lebanon issue, where I am only one of many who has reverted the staus of Lebanon as a combatant nation. Have these others also been included in the mis representation claim? See eg this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1948_Arab–Israeli_War&diff=next&oldid=500516932 Here is the page where i reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1948_Arab–Israeli_War&diff=next&oldid=500661873 It can be seen that one of the sources Oren is still there. Since i reverted, i returned the page to what had been There before, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1948_Arab–Israeli_War&diff=prev&oldid=500516932 Therefore the Oren source was already there, snd if it is misrepresentation, then it wa not me who put the Oren source against it. Most of my work consists of correcting and challenging incorrect claims which do not match the sources, as can be seen from my work. It took me a long time to understand ho wikipedia works, and i now attempt to follow the rules in all cases.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 21:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC) Much of my work would be a lot easier if quotes such as 'huge volume' were attributed. Why was it not stated that it was from the JP? Why was it not in quote marks. This makes searching for the source so much easier. Comments by others about the request concerning Dalai lama ding dong
I was going to file against DLDD myself but on another matter entirely. In this edit he disregarded four sources and actually removed three with the following explanation "as per talk". DLDD has not made a comment at Talk since June 10 and it had nothing to do with the instant edit. DLDD however retained Michael Oren as a source which is fine but then he placed Lebanon in the "volunteer and irregulars" column. The problem is that Oren classified Lebanon as a combatant nation, not merely "volunteers and irregulars." [35] Thus, not only has DLDD engaged in tendentious editing by disregarding four reliable sources and inexplicably removing three, he actually misrepresented Michael Oren’s view and since Oren is a living person, he has not only engaged in source distortion but has misrepresented the views of a living person.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:20, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Besides using the phrase, "a huge volume of Twitter users," as though Twitter traffic is measured in gallons or litres of Tweeters, there are a number of shortcomings in the Jerusalem Post article which make it a bit non-ideal as a source. It fails to mention that the image, as originally released by Reuters, carried a caption saying that the girl had been killed in an Israeli airstrike. Reuters corrected the error a day later. Though unexplained, that is what the article means by "outdated". Also, the article fails to mention that Honest Reporting mounted a campaign to have Badawi sacked, collecting signatures and encouraging readers to tweet and post links to their article, which is probably the source of the "huge volume of Twitter users" referred to. ← ZScarpia 21:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Here DLDD replaces a dead link with "citation needed," saying "Removed dead link, i can not find ut anywhere, cite required."; It took me less than five seconds to search for the article title; the link to the Jerusalem Post was the first result. In this edit ("See talk page, this is what the sources say. I can not find any source here that refers to huge volume.") he reverts "huge volume" to "number," denying the source supports it. Of course, "huge volume" is a direct quote from the source. After this is pointed out, he changes it again,("Proper attribution given to statement."), but it isn't proper attribution, it's mis-attribution, unsupported by the source that he must have just read. Unfortunately a good part of DLDD's work here consists of challenging correct claims which do match the source, then changing them so they no longer match the source. It's become impossible to take DLDD's word for anything. Every edit he makes must be carefully checked. Tom Harrison Talk 11:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Please look at what is being fought over. The article subject "Media coverage of the Arab–Israeli conflict" is an important one about which a large amount of serious writing has been done. Yet some editors think that a tweet made by a UN employee in her spare time is worthy of a large section. Of course it is completely trivial and only gained news attention because of deliberate campaigns by activist organizations. A lot of the article consists of such rubbish and there seems no point in trying to improve it when there are editors around who are opposed to turning it into a proper encyclopedia article. Zerotalk 01:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The Media coverage of the Arab–Israeli conflict is an utter disgrace. The whole section entitled "False tweet by UN employee" is little short of an obscene misrepresentation of facts, including the very title. It does not even make clear the fact that the tweet was based on a Reuters news report which the author accurately repeated. This whole repulsive hatchet-job does not deserve to be there, since this important article-topic should not be covered by a series of one-sided anecdotes about trival incidents. Whether of not DLDD was correct in this case, it is clear that this article is a serious problem. Paul B (talk) 16:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
The warnings here have nothing to do with the editing and it is barely 1RR. Hardly need an indef ban. A requisite shortern block with warning/warning alone sould suffice. The complaint was violated by him or his sock.Lihaas (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Dalai lama ding dong
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Activism1234
No action taken. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:45, 13 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Activism1234
1. "Quran Day"
2. "Quranic agenda"
In both instances, an Arabic primary source is cited, something that most readers, and editors, will be unable to verify for themselves. The actual source, a partisan blog, is never referenced, despite being used to copy, in some instances word-for-word, made up garbage to bash a UN agency.
The only thing I am asking for here is that A1234 be formally notified of the ARBPIA case and that this notification be logged on the case page. Who knows if the user's past account was ever notified, but I'd like to get this one notified. I'm not asking for any other sanction. I requested this at User talk:EdJohnston, but that regrettably got too unwieldy to follow. Ed said I could ask another admin to review this to see if such a notification is called for. There are other issues and other diffs, but in the hope that this is detailed enough to understand but short enough not to ignore, I'll leave it at that.
Discussion concerning Activism1234Statement by Activism1234I already engaged in such a discussion with Nableezy concerning UNRWA. It is unclear why an action in the past that was not committed with intention to violate Wikipedia's policies should be brought up again. The issue in question was reverted and let alone. I did not know that it has become fashionable to tell people they've made a mistake, ask them to change it, engage in a discussion (albeit rather rude and condescending and not cooperative at all, as opposed to for example the discussion on the WIPO page with another editor who asked me to clarify something and then understood it and we worked together, or on the Yasser Arafat page in the last section in which another user, with different views, worked with me to add information to the article), revert, leave it alone for a week, and then file a complaint about said action. [On a side note... Nableezy also claims readers were referenced a source in Arabic which many would not be able to read. This is rather harsh. Is this to imply that Wikipedia readers lack the capability to use a tool such as Google Translate? Or was it a direct attack on me, that I lack such capability? Nableezy did not point out whether there was any such error in mistranslation where a specific quote was taken, and that is fine as there is no need, but then there is no need to issue such a harsh and disturbing attack. Nableezy also misconstrued a number of things. In saying that an online Quran does not prove a "Quranic agenda," Nableezy forgot UNRWA stresses religious tolerance in its educational vision, seemingly placing it at odds with the teaching of a religious subject. Now I'm not looking for an argument here about this, as I've been through this discussion and the words anyway were reverted. And yes, "Quranic agenda" is terrible wording and obviously such an error wouldn't happen again in the future.] But whereas many in the community are fine with asking others for clarification and then working cooperatively with them (see above examples), Nableezy tragically goes down the road of condescending tone and assumption, generalization, and then filing a complaint even though the words were reverted and have not been revisited and Nableezy stated he/she does not like to report people and was first warning me. It's odd to warn someone, revert, that person doesn't edit it again and makes sure not to do it in the future, and then decide to report. It's a silly report, aimed at wasting some of my valuable time. --Activism1234 04:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Activism1234Comment by Zero0000This editor wrote "Personally, I've been part of the Wiki community for years, and then took a break for about a year, before creating a new account (forgot my info on my old one and wanted to start editing fresh and new)." It is impossible to forget an old active account name (just look in the history of any edited article). Given the disruptive nature of this editor's behavior, the chance that it was disruptive last time too is rather great. I suggest that it be required to identify the previous account before being allowed to continue editing. Zerotalk 09:16, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment by ShrikeNableezy topic ban was over only recently and he already active in the WP:AE , he was already warned about his battleground edits by three different admins [36],[37] [38]and yet he continues with same edit pattern.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 13:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Comment by AnkhMorporkThis issue has already been exhaustively discussed on EdJohnston's talk page who commented "This started out as a complaint about Activism's editing at Hamas. It's funny there is no discussion about any of this on Talk:Hamas." The idea that this edit by an ostensible newcomer should end up at AE is ridiculous. Instead of haranguing newbies, a collaborative discussion on the talk pages is advised. Ankh.Morpork 14:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Comment by ZScarpiaKillerChihuahua deleted this comment of mine, supplying as reasons that it was argumentative, not helpful and inappropriate. The reason I left the comment was because Activism1234 sidestepped the point that Zero was making: unless he or she really can't remember any of the pages he/she edited, if he/she wanted to, he/she should be able to figure out what his/her previous account was. Usually, for comments to be deleted, they have to be grossly insulting, so, not thinking that was true about mine, I'm a bit nonplussed about why KillerChihuahua deleted it instead of, for instance, just leaving a counter-comment. As far as being argumentative is concerned, I think that KC must be projecting an image of me as some kind of cantankerous ranter. As far as being not helpful and inappropriate is concerned, well, I've explained the reason why I left the comment. ← ZScarpia 16:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Activism1234
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Nableezy
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Nableezy
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- AgadaUrbanit (talk) 02:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 21:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Might appear as a comment on editors instead of content. A vague reference to "some", while expressing his personal opinion on their intentions: "seek to deny them that title".
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
It is safe to assume that a sufficient warning was issued.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The account has just returned to active editing. Despite his history it appears that the lesson was not learned.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Nableezy
Statement by Nableezy
What? In the comment I responded to, brewcrewer wrote: The descendents of refugees may be considered by some to be "refugees" in the legal sense (emphasis added). I was responding to that. Using the same word used by brewcrewer. I can't say "some" now? This really has to be one of the more frivolous things to have been brought to any admin board anywhere. nableezy - 03:37, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy
Result concerning Nableezy
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm really not seeing it. I don't see anything that's commenting on anyone in that conversation, so I'm a bit confused. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:28, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- Me either; I just see Nableezy commenting on content. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thirded. This is frivolous. Some sanction on the filer may be in order. T. Canens (talk) 04:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- Not knowing the history here well enough, I'll defer to you and others on your last point. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:40, 13 July 2012 (UTC)