→Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle: fix, apologize |
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:I do not see any further evidence of sockpuppetry, except [http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/cgi-bin/wikistalk.py?namespace=0&all=on&user1=Dojarca&user2=Altenmann&user3=MathFacts this] maybe a little suspicious.[[User:Hodja Nasreddin|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Hodja Nasreddin|talk]]) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC) |
:I do not see any further evidence of sockpuppetry, except [http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/cgi-bin/wikistalk.py?namespace=0&all=on&user1=Dojarca&user2=Altenmann&user3=MathFacts this] maybe a little suspicious.[[User:Hodja Nasreddin|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Hodja Nasreddin|talk]]) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC) |
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===Responses by |
===Responses by Peri Krohn=== |
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;Response to Fut.Perf. |
;Response to Fut.Perf. |
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Please have a closer look! |
Please have a closer look! |
Revision as of 01:14, 15 December 2010
Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2
Edith Sirius Lee 2 is banned for six months from the topic of Transcendental Meditation. EdJohnston (talk) 22:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC) | ||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||
Request concerning Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2
Discussion concerning Littleolive oilStatement by Littleolive oilMainspace edits per "They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively." [9] Clarifications and context per the TM arbitration:[10]
- Per the TM arbitration I was not warned, nor does one strongly worded statement constitute," repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes." Statement: My comment in the TM talk page was not a response to the JAMA article. It was a response to Doc James' history of personalizing comments, lack of assuming good faith, and hisj insistence on editing on a body of research from a singular point of view. Its clear from this thread,[11]that I wasn’t sure what James was referring to. My intent was not to offend another editor but to express serious concern to an editor who has a history of unilateral editing, (even in the face of an RfC, where he split content off the main article including the TM research, on the second day of an RfC, while another solution had been suggested by an uninvolved editor, in the face of editor disagreement, effectively preempting the RfC) [12][13] [14]. However, the comment was strongly worded, and since it offended I sincerely apologize and will strike the statement. On three previous occasions I have asked James to assume good faith:
Personalizing comments on the TM article talk page:
Not assuming good faith:
Misrepresentation/POV of research/Deletion sourced content on research: (Violations of TM arbitration) [29]
Comment: This is the second time James has brought me to AE on charges that are misrepresentations. I was taken to AE, restricted by Future Perfect At Sunrise and the case was closed before I could make a comment. I was restricted based on making two reverts is two months. Neither of these requests is right or fair, nor serves the time of editors who come to these AE/N in any capacity. I want to make a point very clear per the comment by Edith Sirius Lee. I find these attack situations ugly and distasteful. I commented on James because I had to, not because I wanted to, in efforts to explain why the statement he brought to this page was not an assumption of bad faith but a recognition of a position that is not enabling collaborative discussion, and that follows three previous requests to move on to discussion that focuses on the edits not the editors. My preference is to try to work contention out on a talk page. Both Will and James know that the Arbitration stipulated an editor must be given a warning prior to asking for enforcement. Yet neither extended a warning for what they considered to be a problematic comment, and both suggested sanctions based on one comment. While I stand by my comment, I don't ever wish to offend anyone, and I would have quickly removed or struck the comment had I seen that It was offensive rather than what I intended it to be, a strongly worded request for an editor to look at his many-times, stated position and to try to delineate his personal opinions from his editing. The past AE sanction was false and unfair, and is being used here too, as it has in other places to suggest,"this is a problematic editor so lets just cut to the chase and hang her." Like all editors I'm sure I've made mistakes in my editing, but creating one false sanction on top of another is creating a lie about me and what I do. I assume this is not what James or Will meant to do, but this is, with out a doubt, what is happening. (I'll add diffs) As an editor, I am doing everything I can to support a collegial, collaborative editing environment, and to move away from convoluted discussion, that includes actively helping to draft a recent RfC suggestion section, asking a neutral outside admin. to come in to gauge consensus when there was disagreement, applying for two mediations, and starting the preliminaries for a third. To Killer Chihuahua: Thank you for your comment. I think what you say is an important statement for all of us on any contentious article. Don't run to a "parent" to admonish, but keep working at being collaborative which means on the most fundamental level, treating others with respect. My style is to avoid incivility, but I edited too late when I was tired and my frustration caught up with me. So you words are very well taken. And I'll try to keep my hands off the keyboard when I'm tired.(olive (talk) 18:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)) Comment by Will BebackOne of the principles from the arbitration concerned assuming good faith:
The remedies instruct uninvolved admins to the enforce the listed principles:
If uninvolved admins think this is a clear-cut case of assuming bad faith then it would be appropriate to enforce compliance using the discretionary sanctions. Will Beback talk 09:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Edith Sirius LeeIs this officially an AE about Fladrif, TimidGuy and me as well? Since the issue is the lack of progression at the content level, should not admins consider the attitude of all involved editors toward consensus at the content level. @Tijfo098, the adjective "paranoid" was qualifying content (in sources), not editors. Also, the "independently done" is about content. TimidGuy also shared the same opinion about the "independently done". It is just a content dispute. [33] Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oilGadzooks, someone please give that poor talkpage a break from the endless hair-splittingly circular arguments and misrepresentation of sources by the proponents (mostly). TM is a form of alternative medicine, so I consider myself WP:INVOLVED despite not having edited there. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Selective quotation from Talk:Transcendental Meditation#An medical article looking at cost and adverse effects: Olive: "You clearly are attempting to present the pejorative view." DocJames: "Some people who practice TM says it allows them to fly and have eternal health." Olive: "You are conflating your personal bias with use of sources." While observing the proportions, this situation appears not dissimilar from that of User:Destinero, who while right about the core science issue related to LGBT parenting, nevertheless chooses the most strident language to proclaim it, and actually manages to support his choice of words with citations (usually page xx out of a long amicus brief of affidavit by a major researcher or science organization), and hardly ever agrees to a compromise on the language regardless of what language other major science orgs use. Ironically, Destinero is the one usually dragged to admin boards for this; ANI, because there was no arbitration case on that topic. To conclude, there may be POV pushing at work here, but it doesn't seem to me from that discussion that it's only from one side. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC) P.S.: I read some of the context for that thread above where Doc cites Rodney Stark (whose views on the world are highly correlated with his current employer) to say that "Yes I have found a few sources that share my main stream scientific point of view regarding TM and could find many more... " That was funny not in the least because the words "fiercely polemical" are in the first sentence of a NYT book review of one of Stark's books: [34]. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
After reading the unarchived talk page there, I think User:Edith Sirius Lee can be justifiably topic banned for repeatedly breaching decorum esp. calling [hyper]skeptic views of TM "paranoid", and for general absurd [wiki]lawyering e.g. regarding the word "independently", but I don't see evidence for banning the others listed by EdJohnson. I'm particularly bewildered by the suggestion to ban User:Fladrif as TM proponent; see Talk:Transcendental Meditation#Changes lead. Perhaps the algorithm invoked is red link user name => ban? Tijfo098 (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I am, like Will, rather taken by surprise by this filing, at least as to LittleOliveOil. I don't really see anything in the diffs cited by DocJames that would have justified a topic ban of olive as originally proposed. I see that he has amended his request for her to be for a formal warning only. I'm not convinced that even that is warranted at this time, at least not based on what has been presented so far. Fladrif (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Littleolive oil
Littleolive oil was one of the parties in the June, 2010 Arbcom decision known as WP:ARBTM and I understand that she has a TM affiliation. Over 90% of her edits since 2006 appear to be on the subject of TM. Opinions may differ as to the exact reason for the discussion at Talk:Transcendental Meditation going in circles for so long, but people with a TM affiliation have been working on these articles for years. (The talk page has 37 archives of up to 200Kb each). If the TM people were ever going to create a modus vivendi with the regular editors, it ought to be visible by now. I think that a set of bans from talk pages may be necessary if we ever want these articles to converge. Though COI-affected people can work well with others on some articles, it doesn't seem to be working out here.
Discussion concerning Edith Sirius LeeStatement by Edith Sirius LeeIn all the diffs presented, I am only referring to content (in sources) or to edits that editors have done, including edits that undid a structure that took a long time to establish. There is no direct attack on an editor. I do not usually directly attack the POV of editors. I did it in some other diffs, but I apologized after. I do not know Doc James, but I am pretty sure he is a nice person. We just disagree on content. If I do my own self critic, I would say that I can be too direct when I contradict other editors in a content dispute using logics, which could even be wrong some times. It is often not well taken. I believe though that I am improving. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Here is my reply to Fladrif's diffs. I agree that my communication skill in the diffs of Aug 10, Aug 13 and Nov 10 was inappropriate. In all cases, I was too argumentative, too direct and perhaps my grammar did not help. I could find more diffs of this kind against me. I think that I am improving. I already plaid guilty for that above, but they were not personal attacks. I certainly did not say I prefer "throwing careless insults around" over civility. It is JamesBWatson that is quoted here, not me - this is taken out of context. As far as the Aug 17 diffs are concerned, the issue is that a discussion was misplaced: all editors, not only me, were warned to continue in the talk page of the RFA, not in the RFA itself, because it was disruptive. I already discussed the Oct 26 diff above. It was a comment that I made about James's edits, which "destroyed" a structure that took a long time to establish. It was not about James directly. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC) An important clarification. I plaid guilty of being too argumentative, etc., but it is not true that I did not improve recently. The six months ban is not necessary. As it is now, I feel I am helping the discussion among editors, making it more productive, not the opposite. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Statements by others concerning EdithSiriusLee
In stark contrast to my surprise at a new AE being filed at this time as to LOO, I am not surprised at all that a new AE is necessary and appropriate as to ESL in all of his/her incarnations. ESL is a consistently disruptive SPA whose only role has been to inundate the talk pages with a relentless deluge of tendacity, obstinance and personal attacks, posing an insurmountable obstacle to the reaching of consensus and cooperation. Repeated warnings from involved and uninvolved editors and administrators, and even the imposition of sanctions at an earlier AE have done nothing to convince ESL to conform his/her editing to the requirements of Wikipedia policy and guidelines and the requirements of the TM ArbCom. I can think of nothing, short of a complete topic ban, that can address this persistent and apparently deliberate behavior. I was sorely tempted to start an AE with respect to ESL the most recent time I warned him/her (Nov 22)[37], but I frankly didn't feel like undertaking the work of starting one. Rather than present an endless list of diffs, I'll just link to a representative sampling of comments by uninvolved editors commenting in various discussions since ESL was sanctioned the first time at AE. I'm not even going to get into the times that I or other involved editors have warned ESL, or to diffs that preceded the last AE, because that list would be nearly endless.
When uninvolved editors look at these pages, they inevitably soon conclude that participation is fruitless, principally because of Edith. There is no way around that conclusion, and there is pretty much only one solution to the problem. This has gone on long enough. Too long. Fladrif (talk) 19:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Edith Sirius Lee
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Martintg
Martintg's block was shortened to two weeks on appeal. EdJohnston (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by MartintgI don't think this block is entirely reasonable or fair, given that only two weeks remain before the expiration of my topic ban, these were two isolated minor edits made in good faith. I did undertake to refrain from any further edits in the remaining period if it was an issue as I stated here.
Reply to BorisG's questionBorisG asks the question on why is there an inconsisency in the treatment of two recent cases and the mixed messages it sends. The reason is that an admin who normally does not patrol the AE board applied a block without first discussing his proposed actions with the other admins here. Had he done so there would have been some measure of consistency with no mixed messages and we wouldn't have people casting negative aspersion on the integrity of the regular admins on this board, or feel encouraged to lodge new AE cases based upon evidence already heard in previous cases[46]. To reiterate why my block should be shortened:
A majority of admins do appear to support reducing my block to December 22nd, I hope this is followed through. --Martin (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Copied here for the appellant. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by PiotrusI will start with a disclaimer that I am a colleague of Marting and also under the same topic ban as him (it is also my understanding that I am allowed to post here; if not please let me know and I'll remove my argument). So you will not be surprised when I say that his 3-week block seems to harsh to me. I'd nonetheless ask you to consider the following arguments:
As such, I'd ask you to reconsider whether three weeks is indeed the right punishment. Could I suggest an alternative: 3 days of a block, and extension of the topic ban by two weeks, for example? This will serve the purpose of leaving a note in a block log, giving the editor some time to think it over, and the community, more time to see if he has learned not to touch the line of the ban. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC) PS. As noted below, the severity of this punishment has seemingly driven the editor into leaving the project ([48]). Is this the intended outcome? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Sander SädeI would like to point out that the three week block is unduly harsh. The previous one week block was enforced by a deeply involved administrator, who blocked Martin in record time after Arbitration Enforcement request was filed - despite the only non-involved administrator commenting at the time expressed doubts about the evidence and recommended Martin to stop editing such topics, or he might get a warning. If you look at the EEML log, then you can see that the standard has been to give an official warning or 12h for the first violation, 24 to 48 hours on the second violation. Martin has never been officially warned for topic ban breach (as can be seen in the EEML log) and this is his second possible violation of the topic ban. His two edits are entirely noncontroversial (they are both, in fact, Wikignome-type edits). The article itself is noncontroversial and stable - no edit-warring, no dubious edits, no heated discussions on the talk page. I don't see how it is possible to claim that the edits violate his topic ban "about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe". I thought it was required for an editor filing the Arbitration Enforcement request to explain how the edits violated the Arbitration remedies - not just give couple of naked diffs and basically claim "it is all there, mmmkay"?
Statement by sanctioning administratorAs the admin who imposed the block in question. I feel I have no choice but to oppose this appeal. I believe the block and its duration are entirely justified. This is the second block for a violation of the topic ban (and nobody is seriously attempting to deny the ban was violated). Blocks are generally escalated, so three weeks is perfectly proportional since the first block, just three months ago, was for a week. Evidently Martintg hasn't learned from the first block or isn't taking the topic ban seriously enough, which is disconcerting given that considerable disruption must have occurred for a topic ban to be impose in the first place. However, the above statement shows that they simply do not understand the reason for the block, which makes it impossible to contemplate unblocking, especially when they resort to wikilawyering and questioning my record in order to detract attention from what is clearly and unambiguously a violation of a topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by MartintgQuestion for Mkativerata (and others): given that the problem is related to Martin's understanding of the blurry topic ban, that his edits were good faithed, and that his contributions to other topic areas has been uncontroversial, wouldn't a more beneficial (to the project) solution be to reimpose the pre-blurry motion topic ban (from all EE-related articles)? This would allow Martin to keep contribution to the project for the next two/three weeks, in areas he has proven to be a good and uncontroversial contribute, and would prevent him from making any further problematic judgments in the blurry topic ban area (as far as I know, he was following his previous, wider topic ban without any problems, it is the post-motion blurry boundaries that have proven problematic). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Martintg
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Piotrus
No action taken in respect of Piotrus. A limited dispute resolution/enforcement restriction is imposed on Dojarca, details of which are enclosed. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Piotrus
Discussion concerning PiotrusStatement by PiotrusWere to begin... by no means those diffs are "new"; all but one diffs Dojarca brings were discussed in the recently closed (~2 days ago) request by Offliner (closed with a warning to me, and Offliner was sanctioned for abuse of AE). The diffs can be found in this section, and my comment about them, in my statement there. To quickly summarize my reply, the diffs concern the cases were I possibly got too close to the topic ban, and self-reverted immediately. The remaining diff (to WikiProject Poland) is very much not breeching any policy or restriction, as I am allowed to bring any and all issues to WT:POLAND per this motion. As such, Dojarca's report is nothing but beating a dead horse (in the best case), and more of a rather crude attempt at block shopping. Further, a review of Dojarca's contributions to Wikipedia namescape suggest a case of similar radicalization and wikistalking/wikihounding of selected opponents (Dojarca presented evidence during the EEML case) as with Offliner, but exaggerated due to Dojarca's major focus on discussions and dispute resolution (instead of contributing to encyclopedic content). More than half - more like three quarters - of his wiki namespace edits this year are related to filing complains and/or criticizing his adversaries from the EEML case. Since resuming active editing in mid-November (he was inactive since February), he made 7 edits to article namespace - and 28 edits to dispute resolution pages; his 2nd through 4th edits when he came back where at the arbitration amendment page...
I am really tired of getting dragged into this EE-related, bad faith/wikilawyering battlefield, and I hope that reviewing admins will consider some form of an interaction/AE ban similar to the one applied two days ago to Offliner (although considering the less constructive nature of Dojarca's contribution to this project, I'd suggest an appropriately increased length - perhaps it will make him shift his attention from combating others to actually building the encyclopedia). If some editors cannot understand the principle of WP:FORGIVE, it seems that they must be taught it the hard way. Thank you, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Response to Mkativerata by DojarcaPiotrus already has been warned multiple times and multiple times promised not to break his own topic ban. What's the purpose of getting another promise from him? The cited above edits are not on the edge of the topic area. They blatantly break the most uncontroversial variant of topic ban interpretation, so this could not be justified by assumption that he understood his topic ban narrower than it was intended. His tactic shows that he recognized well that he breaked the topic ban but attempted to game the system. When you suggested to pardon Piotrus previous time, you argued that the violation is not repeated, but we can see that this statement was already then erroneous. That's why the 13-day old diff is relevant. Even his response to this request with an unrelated personal attack on me shows that he is not getting the point. Attempts to prohibit any arbitration enforcement against the EEML at best shows disrespect to the Arbcom and its adopted decisions. I did not break any Wikipedia's rules thus I see no logical reason why should I be restricted. Yes, I encountered with Piotrus and the coordinated actions by the EEML previously, that's why I am so concerned. Or do you expect the enforcement requests only from uninvolved editors? Re Piotrus. Why WP:FORGIVE should be only applied to EEML members? Where were the WP:FORGIVE invocations when you advocated long-term bans on other editors? Besides this WP:FORGIVE requires the user to apologize but you response here with attacks against me shows that you are far from apologizing. Dojarca (talk) 06:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning PiotrusThis appears to be the second attempt to sanction Piotrus for the same edits. The first attempt has already been dealt with and resulted in a warning. Regardless of whether that was a correct result, I see no point in considering it again. Moreover I think such behaviour by the filing party is inapppropriate. I think they need to be warned not to do this again. - BorisG (talk) 07:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Deacon of PndapetzimDojarca should get a 1 year ban for having the temerity to try to get a plain and simple Arbcom ruling enforced against a powerful user. Yes, it was a clear and knowing violation of the restriction. Yes, the previous 'decision' was ridiculous, one of many decisions over the years that make a joke of this place. Nonetheless, this is the real world. Dojarca, take your 1 year ban and learn your lesson. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Volunteer MarekOk, I wasn't going to comment here but Deacon's comments deserve a comment. First, WHY is Deacon putting his comments in the "Results" section, which "is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators."? Deacon is very much involved here. Since some of the current admins active at AE may not have the necessary background knowledge here, Deacon is a long time enemy of Piotrus, consistently pursuing a 4 year old grudge. That's right, 4 years old (wait, I think it's almost 5 years old now). That I think is pretty much the definition of "battleground mentality". It also explains the use of the excessive hyperbolic nonsense phrases like calling Piotrus "a powerful user" (seriously? What exactly is this power? Can I have some?) and "leader of EEML" (??? Like Kim-Jong Il or something? Can we at least pretend to be serious here?) and "master of both processes" which is straight up WP:NPA. Deacon has been declared involved in EE topics on this very board, due to his abuse of his administrative tools in regards to Polish editors [60]. He was banned at one point from the EEML case by the clerk for unhelpful comments at the case and disruptive behavior [61]. Of course I'm not uninvolved either, as I was on the mailing list and I was also part of the EEML case (part of the reason why I was not going to comment). But I'm not pretending to be uninvolved here. Seriously, if there's to be any hope of Eastern European topics not being the gawd awful place to edit that it currently is this kind of battleground, hounding and block shopping needs to stop. Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Piotrus
Bringing a 13-day-old diff to AE - after the filer would have known that Piotrus was warned to be more conservative in his approach to his topic ban only a couple of days ago - is not helpful. In light of Dojarca's battle-cry here, I am inclined to apply a similar restriction to Dojarca as the restriction applied to Offliner above, in order to prevent the continued use of AE as a weapon. Given that I don't think any action should be taken against Piotrus on such an obviously stale diff, I'll hold this AE open for views on the less urgent matter of sanctions in respect of Dojarca. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Ok, this has been left open for more than a couple of days now (thanks for the comments). The result is:
Regards --Mkativerata (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC) |
Wee Curry Monster
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Wee Curry Monster
- User requesting enforcement
- Imalbornoz (talk) 23:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Wee Curry Monster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) aka "Justin" aka "Justin the Evil Scotsman" aka "Justin A. Kuntz"
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- "[Topic banned for 3 months]: Should Justin A Kuntz return to editing relating to Gibraltar following this period, he is reminded to edit in accordance with the principles discussed in this decision" (the principles of the resolution can be seen here:[62] "editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth to competing versions", "[avoid] unjustified failure to assume good faith, using Wikipedia as a battleground", "Where different viewpoints exist on a topic, those views enjoying a reasonable degree of support should be reflected in article content, fairly representing the weight of authority for each view."
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Gibraltar#Discretionary sanctions (Especially: "Editors wishing to edit in the area of dispute are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. Any editor who is unable or unwilling to do so may wish to limit his or her editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.")
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [63][64][65] His first edit after his 3 month topic ban was to include in the lede the very controversial term that was being discussed just before his topic ban and about which consensus was reached to remove it (and which provoked this comment from him[66]). He then edit warred repeatedly instead of sticking to BRD.
- [67][68][69] His fourth edit after the return was to remove consensus text that was being discussed when he was topic banned (reached after very long discussions), and then he edit warred with different editors to keep that text out.
- [70][71][72][73][74] The edit war mentioned above still goes on today, with different editors, in several articles.
- [75][76][77] another edit war with Cremallera and Richard Keatinge at Timeline of the history of Gibraltar
- [78][79] yet another edit war in Timeline of the history of Gibraltar with Ecemaml
- [80][81][82][83] Edit war with 3 different editors to include some text he knew was false (and unsupported by the source he cited) until an admin told him he was wrong.[84]
- [85][86][87][88][89][90][91][92] Has repeatedly accused other editors of tag teaming (an improvement over his previous calling other editors “fascist fuckwits”, but clearly disruptive and a lack of good faith assumption)
- [93][94][95][96][97][98][99] Other repeated accusations: “choosing to misrepresent his position”, misrepresenting sources, ownership, resorting to bad faith attacks, poisoning the well, filibustering, tendentious editing…
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [100] Warning by Richard Keatinge (talk · contribs)
- [101] Warning by Imalbornoz (talk · contribs)
- [102] Warning by Imalbornoz (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Justin / Wee Curry Monster has returned to edit the article, but he is not following the principles stated in the Arbcom decision: Conduct and decorum, Consensus, National and territorial disputes and similar conflicts. He is not launching the personal attacks that he used to, but otherwise his behavior is completely disruptive and, like another editor (Richard Keatinge) said, it verges on incompetence. Here he explains in length one -of many- very exasperating episode that is a good example of what I mean. Another example: There have been 60 comments in the talk page in Justin's absence, and no edit wars; now we are at a rate of more than 300 comments per month and several edit wars (starred by him) going on. If this is not a clear proof of disruption, then I don't know what is.
Responses to comments below:
- As a response to several comments about who is to blame for the edit wars, I should emphasize some points:
- No edit wars happened during Justin's absence, even though there are many editors with different POVs
- It has been Justin vs. Richard Keatinge, Ecemaml, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick and myself (Justin vs. one at a time or vs. several at once); the only common factor has been him.
- The subject of the edit wars were texts that were under discussion. Justin edited (repeatedly) to impose content that he knew was rejected by other editors, something that has turned an already difficult discussion into an almost impossible task.
- If you look at the dates of the reverts, you will see that Justin has reacted almost instantly in each instance. Other editors (I have personally made it a point to act like this) have many times asked Justin to self-revert and return to discussion as per BRD, and have waited several days before I even thought of reverting his edits.
- Like EdJohnston has said, Justin's edit summaries are "bombastic".
- As a response to several comments about who is to blame for the edit wars, I should emphasize some points:
- I know everybody has some responsibility in an edit war, but I think that any enforcement should take into account who is the cause and who has reacted. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 10:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding Vassyana comments about the enforcement: The sanction that I request to be enforced is not about the topic ban (which is already a few months old like Vassyana has noticed) but the part that says: "Should Justin A Kuntz return to editing relating to Gibraltar following this period, he is reminded to edit in accordance with the principles discussed in this decision and will be subject to the discretionary sanctions remedy should he fail to do so." I say that he has failed to do so since his first edit after his return, especially: Conduct and decorum, Consensus, National and territorial disputes and similar conflicts.
- Justin's first edit happened in October. He's right to say has learnt to be WP:CIVIL, but his conduct has otherwise been very disruptive since the first edit. I have waited until now hoping that Justin would start to behave according to those principles. This request is a last resource. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 10:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Answer to EdJohnston about the edit war in November: We did not discuss on the definition of "Gibraltarian" but a much more prosaic issue: the source cited by Justin said that there were 23,907 Gibraltarians (literally, in page 2[103]), not 30,000. Why Justin reverted several times to say that there are 30,000 Gibraltarians using this source is beyond my understanding (even when he was told he was wrong). Imagine the discussion with Justin about controversial topics (territorial disputes, etc) if it goes like this even with such trivial matter-of-fact issues... See my explanation to JodyB -the admin who told Justin he was wrong- here. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 11:03, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Answer to Vassyana regarding section links not diffs: It's difficult, because the discussion is huge. Anyway, just a few links:
- Justin's talk page (please read it, it is very illustrative, especially the introduction)
- My explanation of the November edit war, with admin JodyB's and Justin's answers (please take into account that this is only one -and very trivial- of many).
- The first section in the Gibraltar talk page since Justin's first comment after the topic ban on October 9. Justin's first comments are very illustrative too. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 11:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Answer to Vassyana regarding section links not diffs: It's difficult, because the discussion is huge. Anyway, just a few links:
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [104]
Discussion concerning Wee Curry Monster
Statement by Wee Curry Monster
I have not repeated any of the conduct that lead to my topic ban, rather I have learnt an important lesson regarding WP:CIVIL and have tried to avoid a repeat. This smacks of retaliation, rather than engaging in the consensus process, Imalbornoz has repeatedly engaged in personal attacks and sought admin intevention to remove me from consensus building. We currently have an amicable discussion re content and rather than engaging in that process Imalbornoz is seeking admin intervention yet again. I request that Imalbornoz is warned about WP:CIVIL and in particular the requirement not to bring up past disputes for which an editor has repeatedly apologised and has not repeated the same conduct. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- I can provide many diffs of bad faith and personal attacks but would prefer to use the consensus building process on the talk page. This I believe would be a lasting solution to the article's problems. Wee Curry Monster talk 00:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Regarding accusation of edit warring in 4 above. May I draw attention to the fact that Imalbornoz is misrepresenting the situation. I was not told I was wrong by User:JodyB rather Imalbornoz misinformed said admin, I later provided clarification [105] and I note the matter was concluded amicably without rancour with an amplification of my edit [106] that considerably improved the article. Admin User:JodyB actually requested that we both cease frivolous complaints [107].
Regarding my comments on tag team edit warring, sadly this has occurred before, and was used to impose content over and above objections. I don't think it is unreasonable to discuss this given the clear and repeated threat to impose content eg [108].
Regarding the repeated misrepresentation of my position. [109] which is presented as [110]. Misrepresentation of my position is common as well as referring to a position from which I've already compromised. I can provide more diffs.
Sadly I can provide numerous examples of uncivil comments but I have a thick skin and would prefer to work on content. Wee Curry Monster talk 00:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Additional Statement
In response to my edit, which is now complained about, I was the focus of a series of personal attacks [111], [112], [113]. Note the comments did not discuss the edit per WP:BRD but focused solely on the editor. I'm happy to discuss content but will not respond to personal attacks. The text I edited is problematic, it focuses on providing details of what Imalbornoz refers to as "atrocities" and "desecrations", both WP:WORDS that WP:LABEL. Its also completely unbalanced, WP:CHERRY picking certain facts and ignoring others.
We attempted an RFC. I requested that text be allowed to stand on merit, that request was ignored and the walls of text referred to in the Arbcom case resulted that deterred any outside opinion.
During and prior to the AN/I discussion mentioned below I was subjected to a series of personal attacks. At no point did I respond in kind. None of those responsible have received any sanction as a result. Imalbornoz [114] was warned to refrain from personal attacks but note they were repeated above.
Ed states below that Imalbornoz and I were apparently equally guilty of edit warring on 12 November. I do not accept that, I walked away from the discussion [115] following the personal attacks [116]. It was a dumb lame dispute, that was easily solved on the talk page but when the discussion turned intemperate I walked away from it. Note that I did not respond in kind to personal attacks, so I am somewhat bewildered by accusations my conduct was comparable.
My edit summaries are and I quote "bombastic", please, what has happened to WP:AGF? I replaced text that violates WP:NPOV with neutral text, stating what was wrong with it. Come on, how else would you summarise that in an edit summary? I also removed a NPOV tag I'd added but please note that when Richard and Imalbonoz "reverted" this was not restored. Please also note the first diff presented by Ed is not a revert, its an edit.
There is a serious problem with WP:OWN on this article right now. This case is intended to drive another editor from editing. Please consider the evidence and don't leap to judgement. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- This is now getting silly. Show me a diff where I have been in violation of Conduct and decorum, Consensus, National and territorial disputes and similar conflicts. Regarding Conduct and decorum this personal attack by Imalbornoz is clearly in violation, regarding Consensus may I draw attention to these reverts [117] and [118] both by Imalbornoz that ignored the consensus on the talk page and in which he did not participate till after these reverts, compare with this Discussion where I am clearly building a consensus and the sole source of disruptive comments is Imalbornoz eg just when we have agreement, Imalbornoz chooses to disagree [119] claiming the text is not neutral. Finally ref National and territorial disputes and similar conflicts see this threat - again by Imalbornoz. May I ask a point for procedure, are unsubstantiated allegations unsupported by diffs not a personal attack per WP:CIVIL? Knowing Imalbornoz if they existed you can bet he would have posted them - clearly they don't.
- I have asked a number of editors not to post on my talk page, solely because of past intemperate comments from those individuals. Discussions on content belong on the article talk page and in the past comments on my talk page have attempted to bait me into an intemperate response.
- Regarding this diff, presented by Imalbornoz. I did try to engage discussion on the talk page [120] and [121] for example, following a series of personal attacks I may add. He chose to ignore that, instead preferring to lobby for admin action. Regarding his explanation, I pointed out that Gibraltarian refers to both residents and natives - Gibraltarian status being required for residents. My points on that matter were reasonable.
- Regarding his final point, note I did not bring up past disputes and requested a focus on content not editors. This has been lacking from Imalbornoz he has frequently brought up past disputes in complete violation of WP:CIVL I have not repeated any of the conduct that lead to my topic ban - he has no evidence whatsoever that I have. This appears to be an abuse of the WP:AE process to discourage my participation on that article. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- I note that yet again I am falsely accused by Richard of suppressing mention of San Roque. I don't, I never have, and I have always been willing to compromise but simply object to an edit that says the exodus went to San Roque, seeing as San Roque was founded by refugees from Gibraltar 2 years later. Remember this is an overview and if you check other online overviews, they don't feel the need to mention it. All I ask is that either this information is supplied or we go for a more general term; a compromise that resulted from mediation. I find the text favoured by Richard and Imalbornoz misleading and that is why I object to it. Again this is an example of my position being misrepresented as a means to paint me as unreasonable, whereas a perfectly reasonable compromise is rejected to favour a text that misleads. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Wee Curry Monster
It might be worth noting that recent comments of Imalbornoz have led to the AE reminder and that others in the debate have been engaging in rather baiting behaviour (Richard's long rant accusing Justin of incompetance is especially helpful. And this is a person who claims to be a neutral mediator.). I'd argue it is no place of Imal and Richard to bandy around sanction threats, as they have done, with someone they so clearly despise and have prior history with. Justin has issues with various parts of what is proposed (mostly based around suitability for a main article over a stub), others have similar concerns that overlap on areas with Justin's. It is claimed he is obstructionist...yet Richard and Imalbornoz have proved equally intransigent (Especially in view of Richard, who casually dismisses Justin at every turn, providing no rational as if he is on some hell bent crusade to cause trouble). I hope the person looking at this looks over the history carefully, and looks at the verbal battering one takes from walls of texts that either go around in circles or are out to insult a user. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:26, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Addendum: It was asked if action was required...I'd say no. There is nothing here other than the usual attempts to use AE to bully editors into a consensus they don't agree with - On controversial articles it can often take a while to get cnsensus on wording, AE shoud not condone use of itself as a bypass to this difficult but necessary process. The only blocks I'd see would be Richard for repeated personal attacks, and that is outside the scope of AE. --Narson ~ Talk • 11:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- The main problem here is not any one edit or dispute. It is the immense amount of futile argumentation about everything, and specifically its incompetent handling by WCM in particular. Those who wish to reprise the arguments so far may trawl the archives, starting perhaps with Talk:Gibraltar/Archive 14. I wouldn't want to impose such a task on anyone, it's only required if I fail to make clear here how frustrating it is to try to discuss with him. Commonly, his arguments/edit summaries quote the Wikipedia policy which he thinks is relevant, without actually explaining why the policy might be relevant. Between trying to understand what his summary means, trying to correct his misinterpretation of sources (check the table of arguments at the end of Archive 19), trying to produce a text which will not prejudge several nationalist points, and trying to cope with further ill-considered edits/undocumented changes to what he's proposing, we get nowhere.
- It's just over a year since I joined this discussion, responding to an RfC. I came in at Talk:Gibraltar/Archive 16, and from well before then the archives record acrimonious and ultimately vain attempts to include Wee Curry Monster/Justin A Kuntz in various consensuses. (Not that he was the only problem at the time.) As I have previously argued, I do not feel that Wee Curry Monster has sufficient competence to contribute usefully to this page. I judge that he is doing his best in good faith, but simply does not understand how to take part in a productive discussion. We have had many months of filibustering and disruption, with good editors and wellmeaning mediators being driven away and those who stay the course wasting huge amounts of time. It's often been easier to leave him to have the last word in the hope that he will realize how unhelpful most of his comments are. Short of decisive intervention (as we have recently had in one specific issue), I see no reason to anticipate improvement.
- One specific issue may illustrate the general problem. We are currently getting nowhere with the mention of San Roque as the main destination (with current implications for at least one national narrative) of the Spanish refugees from Gibraltar after the Anglo-Dutch conquest of 1704. For a couple of years Justin/WCM has been trying to keep it out of the article, with the main reason for their flight, namely fear after riotous invasion and atrocities committed under guarantees of safety. The consensus text (minus references) is: "The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain." Justin/WCM replaces this with a passing allusion and a minor piece of original research: "Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack led most of the townspeople to leave." (Those coming new to this specific issue and wanting to look at the references may wish to check the quotations currently available at User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar.) The San Roque issue here is a major theme from October 2009. We achieved the consensus text only when Justin/WCM was banned, and the issue returned with a bang, with other deeply contentious edits, on Justin/WCM's return.
- While Justin/WCM has now served his ban, the arbitration remedies included specifically "Editors wishing to edit in the area of dispute are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution...", and that advice on dispute resolution includes "Resolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building on relevant discussion pages.". Making highly contentious edits and following them with semi-relevant wrangles, accusations, and disclaimers does not help us to build a better encyclopedia and it is a behaviour pattern which might reasonably attract enforcement action under the terms of the existing arbitration decision. Without some decisive external action this page will continue to go nowhere. I am not sure that bans are required; if some particularly saintly admin has time to to keep a watching brief on the page and occasionally give firm and enforceable advice, this may solve the problem. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- When Richard refers to getting people involved in consensuses, it's worth making the point clear. In general, such "consensuses" occurred when everyone on one side of a dispute supported an edit and everyone on the other side opposed. The side with the larger number of editors - including Richard and Imalbornoz - was able to strong-arm their content into the article. But this was before the Arbcom ruling.
- Richard has recently again proposed a similar tactic be used when he believed that three of us agreed an edit and Curry Monster did not. We were not even close to the point where this might have even been considered, had it been someone else who had opposed. The whole point of asking for the topic ban back is so that this can be institutionalised: so that when Curry Monster's view is inconvenient to Richard and Imalbornoz, it can be ignored without fuss. That isn't reasonable and in this case would be strongly disproportionate - particularly given as Curry Monster has not repeated any of the behaviour that led to the topic ban.
- I notice at this stage also that Richard quotes sections about editing carefully, and resolving disputes calmly through civil discussion and consensus-building. I therefore ask editors to judge this - Richard's attempt at the "Discuss" part of the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle - in that light. You will note that by starting up the discussion with a large number of personal remarks, barely touching upon the edit concerned, Richard completely derailed the discussion and with it any hope of resolving the dispute calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building. You will also note Richard and Imalbornoz's continued refusal to discuss the issue.
- You may also find this gem fairly illuminating: may I suggest that a 2000-word essay on the subject of another editor's "incompetence" could not reasonably fit within the bounds of "edit carefully" or "[r]esolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building on relevant discussion pages" even if the two editors concerned hadn't had to go to Arbcom to try and resolve their differences. I can only come up with two explanations: either Richard was trying to bait Curry Monster into the sort of behaviour that led to the topic ban in the first place, or he was so naïve that one would have to seriously question his competence. All in all, given how much stirring Richard has done, I think he's just about the last one who should be preaching to us about editing carefully and resolving disputes through civil discussion.
- This is not the place to discuss the content. That would be the article talk page. In the period immediately preceding this AE, no editor had given any objection to Curry Monster's edit that could be sustained by policy. Read the discussion, you see that Curry Monster was told he was not allowed to be WP:BOLD, but the objection might as well have been "because I said so".
- On filibustering and disruption, another point that Richard raises. Let me point out this RFC. Note that Curry Monster opposed the RFC, asking for strict anti-filibuster rules: otherwise, we would be filibustered. That was overruled by the admin concerned and, surprise surprise, the RFC was filibustered. And who started the filibuster? Imalbornoz and Richard. There are two sides to this dispute and Imalbornoz and Richard have not behaved well. Pfainuk talk 18:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Wee Curry Monster
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- I am currently reviewing the history of the talk page and various links provided. One thing I will immediately take note of is that this is an arbitration enforcement request based loosely on a 3 month topic ban than expired 4 months ago. Further links to any relevant discussions (section links, not diffs, where possible) and admin discussion regarding the matter would be helpful. Please bear with me while I take the time to carefully read over the history and current happenings. I will try to reply in a few hours, but not may be able to do so until tomorrow. Vassyana (talk) 03:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Point taken regarding the discretionary sanctions remedy. That noted, this is terrible both sides around. I am organizing some diffs, but it seems obvious to me that the primary actors need some sort of break here. Posting so you I've not abandoned this. Vassyana (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- It might be good to get more Gibraltar editors to comment, to see if the new problems are enough to call for enforcement. If we're listing all the misbehavior since 1 November, I'd offer two examples:
- A. The skirmish around November 12 where editors argued about the definition of 'Gibraltarian' and got into an edit war, which later quieted down. See the thread at ANI which closed on 14 November.
- In this war I think Wee Curry Monster and Imalbornoz are about equally to blame.
- B. Revert warring by Wee Curry Monster at Gibraltar, which started on 7 December and continued on 12 December. See these diffs:
- 12:26, 7 December 2010 (edit summary: "/* History */ replacing POV section that violates WP:CHERRY with neutral text, removing POV label")
- 21:46, 7 December 2010 (edit summary: "rv edit actually contravenes wiki policy on NPOV see WP:CHERRY")
- 20:55, 12 December 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 401989802 by Imalbornoz (talk) rv WP:CHERRY & WP:COATRACK policy wins over strong feelings")
- In the 7 December fight, I think it's mostly Wee Curry Monster who is doing the warring. He did revert twice in one day (7 December), and his edit summaries are bombastic. —EdJohnston (talk) 05:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Delicious carbuncle
Indefinite topic ban from all Scientology-related articles imposed on respondent; appeal below |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Delicious carbuncle
Discussion concerning Delicious carbuncleStatement by Delicious carbuncleTo the best of my recollection, I have not edited any articles having to do with the Church of Scientology or Scientologists in general, with the sole exception of the edits to the biography of Jamie Sorrentini (who only temporarily fell into that category when I added a source which was at that time used in other BLPs). I am not a Scientologist. I have no particular interest in the Church of Scientology. My interest is in the neutrality of Wikipedia and the even-handed application of our policies and guidelines, especially as they relate to living persons. Unless there is a prohibition against discussing Scientology-related articles in the context of our policies and guidelines, this is a farcical action. I stand by everything I said about Cirt in this ANI thread, and I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to prove my case. Concisely put, Cirt is an anti-Church of Scientology POV-pusher who wilfully ignores our WP:NPOV and WP:BLP policies in order to identity, minimize, and generally portray members of the Church of Scientology in a negative light. This is not a new problem and it should come as no surprise to anyone who has looked seriously at this subject area. Thank you for your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Delicious carbuncleThe idea that DC is not editing in the Scientology area is implausible, given the amount of time/space he has been devoting to the topic at a variety of noticeboards, including J Wales's talk page. The disruptive element of his editing, if any, is precisely that he hasn't simply worked on the articles that bother him -- instead, he has been going straight to the noticeboards, without attempting to fix anything himself first. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:03, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by Jayen466
Comment by ResidentAnthropolgistI agree with Jayen466 over the concerns he has raised that do eventually need to be addressed in some sort of format in the near future. I suggested to Delicious Carbuncle very early on in this dispute at ANI that a RFC/U would be a better method for dealing with these valid behavioral issues he is concerened about. That being said Delicious Carbuncle behavior has really been too WP:POINTY and disruptive to to really ignore and probably does require a short term topic for Delicious Carbuncle and interaction ban applied to them both of a duration of 1 month. Those two remedies should allow heads to cool and then have rationale discussion to commence and prevent further escalation. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
How is that an appropriate remedy?The remedy applied by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, seems inappropriate from my POV.
I'm unimpressed by #1 above, but I'm a bit shocked by #2. How can we ban someone from reporting policy violations ever? If Carbuncle harasses Cirt, then block him or seek other remedies. If he files spurious reports, again block him then, but to say ... "you are never ever allowed to report this user for any policy misconduct in the Scientology area", seems completely outside the scope of normal remedies and entirely unfair. Given how many people recognize that Cirt, however productive he might be in many ways, has a very extreme POV when it comes to Scientology, this type of remedy seems even more ridiculous.Griswaldo (talk) 20:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
AN/II have asked for input regarding this matter at AN/I. Please see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary_sanction_at_AE.3F. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Delicious carbuncle
After reading further I agree with Furture Perfect that a topic ban is appropriate. Cirt edits a difficult topic area in which a minority POV is aggressively pushed. The comments made by DC on the Wikipedian Review indicated more than a passing involvement in Scientology. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC) (Copied over from WP:ANI Maybe not. Cirt also asked me to take a look at this, arguing basically that Jayen has got it in for him. I haven't had time to look over the whole thing, but indefinitely preventing DC from ever raising an issue about Cirt's actions about scientology is not an appropriate sanction to hang off the Scientology case in my opinion. Yes, action is needed because of DC's WP:POINT disruption, and I am not objecting to a sanction on article editing, but there does at first glance appear to be some valid criticism in there, and silencing it entirely is not the way to go. Rather than this sanction, DC should be sanctioned to either start a formal process or shut up about it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC) NB, I don't think I have ever had any involvement in scientology articles. I'd like to have a chance to review this, but won't have the opportunity until tomorrow. User:Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest that all of these issues be agitated if an when an appeal is lodged, rather than here or at ANI. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC) |
Benkta
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Benkta
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Benkta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding#General restriction
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Abuse of talk page And again, after the prior edit was objected to.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Not applicable. (A user returning with a new account does not get a new warning.)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Indef block or topic ban. Checkuser will probably come back negative because the puppetmaster is stale.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- A number of editors have been topic banned or banned entirely. These periodically return with new accounts, engaging in the same sort of soap boxing and talk page disruption that got them banned in the first place. Based on behavior, and this being the user's first edit to Wikipedia ever, it is pretty clear that they are recycled.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.
Discussion concerning Benkta
Statement by Benkta
Comments by others about the request concerning Benkta
Do you have any evidence to link this editor with any of the blocked/banned editors you allude to and not just a newbie, albeit a POV-pushing newbie?
- Yes. Their behavior is indistinguishable from Neutral Good (talk · contribs), and BryanFromPalatine (talk · contribs). Check contribution histories. How many new users show up, on their first edit ever, posting tl;dr screeds like this one? The probability is 99% sock puppet, 1% innocent but intemperate new user. I don't know about you, but I have no way to look through the wire and see who's on the other edit. We have to judge editors by their actions. Additionally when two editor's behaviors are indistinguishable, we may treat them as a single editor, even if they might be two different people. (Per WP:MEAT.) Jehochman Talk 19:26, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm just going to reply here for clarity and to save the scrolling. You may have a point, but, after a review of NG's contribs and the two edits by the respondent in this AE request, I'm not convinced enough that Neutral God = Benkta to block on that basis alone. Other admins may feel differently, so this shouldn't be seen as a decline. In the meantime, I'll warn them and inform them of the case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- If NG registers a new account, what is to stop them from resuming past disruption? Are we giving them an unlimited number of bites at the apple? Jehochman Talk 21:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- You've missed my point. I don't have the requisite level of certainty that this editor is NG to block them. If another admin has that level of certainty, then they're more than welcome to block. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- If NG registers a new account, what is to stop them from resuming past disruption? Are we giving them an unlimited number of bites at the apple? Jehochman Talk 21:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm just going to reply here for clarity and to save the scrolling. You may have a point, but, after a review of NG's contribs and the two edits by the respondent in this AE request, I'm not convinced enough that Neutral God = Benkta to block on that basis alone. Other admins may feel differently, so this shouldn't be seen as a decline. In the meantime, I'll warn them and inform them of the case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Benkta
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Do you have any evidence to link this editor with any of the blocked/banned editors you allude to and not just a newbie, albeit a POV-pushing newbie? Also, their talk page is a red link. Please inform them of this request. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Solicitr
Blocked by HJ Mitchell.
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Solicitr
Discussion concerning SolicitrStatement by SolicitrComments by others about the request concerning SolicitrResult concerning Solicitr
Cut and dry violation of the restriction, which is one of the least ambiguous remedies ArbCom have ever come up with. All the paperwork is in order—they were notified of the case and counselled on how to avoid sanctions last month by 2/0. Blocked for 24 hours since it's their first block. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC) |
Please clarify. Recent decision concerning me
Superseded by appeal, 03:38, 14 December 2010 #Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dojarca. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Mkativerata wrote on my talk page: you are prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months Following this I request some clarification. 1. Does it mean I am effectively topic-banned from any Eastern-European area, at least from any dispute resolution in that area? 2. Does it mean that enforcement of ArbCom decisions by users who are uninvolved in the corresponding articles henceforward be considered WP:BATTLEGROUND and those users be sanctioned similarly? 3. Can Mkativerata be considered uninvolved administrator here in light of his controversial conduct in previous report regarding Piotrus and also concerning his block of user Igny for his re-incerting the POV template into the much-disputed article Mass killings under Communist regimes [132]? Thank you.--Dojarca (talk) 21:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC) In response: 1. No. The restriction only concerns disputes relating to user conduct. You are free to participate in content-related disputes, such as RfCs. 2. No. Legitimate good faith requests for enforcement are welcome. 3. Obviously I reject the suggestion I am "involved". I note that Igny was blocked for a clear 1RR violation. The other party to that edit (User talk:A50000) war was also blocked, even though he/she did not breach 1RR. Regards --Mkativerata (talk) 21:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Captain Occam
- Appealing user
- Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Captain Occam (talk) 02:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Indefinite ban from the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages, with the exception of AE threads and discussions where my own editing is in question. Imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75#Captain_Occam, logged at Wikipedia:ARBR&I#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [136]
Statement by Captain Occam
In the thread where I ended up being sanctioned, EdJohnston initially proposed that under the discretionary sanctions authorized on race and intelligence articles, all topic bans from this case should be extended to every page on Wikipedia. As stated in EdJohnston’s proposal, this would have applied to all five of the editors currently topic banned from these articles: myself, David.Kane (talk · contribs), Mikemikev (talk · contribs), Mathsci (talk · contribs) and Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs). Timothy Canens commented in the thread expressing approval of this idea. Mathsci, the editor who posted the AE complaint, subsequently contacted both EdJohnston and Timothy Canens via e-mail. (Stated by Mathsci here.) Shortly after being contacted privately by Mathsci, EdJohnston modified his proposal in the AE thread to a specific sanction for only me and Ferahgo. No admins other than the two who Mathsci was privately in contact with commented on this new proposal before the thread was closed.
When I brought up this sanction in EdJohnston’s user talk, EdJohnston agreed with me that it would have been inappropriate for his decision in this thread to be influenced by private correspondence with the person making the complaint, and denied that this had been the case. He also expressed uncertainty over whether it had been the best idea for him to take action against me in this thread after Mathsci had contacted him privately about this. However, EdJohnston was unwilling to tell me what other than Mathsci’s e-mails had caused him to replace his original proposal, which was a general extension of all topic bans from this case, with a specific sanction for me and Ferahgo. More importantly, even though for me and Ferahgo to be specifically sanctioned implies that we’ve done something wrong to warrant it, he was unwilling to tell me what misbehavior from me and Ferahgo we were sanctioned for. I asked him what we had done to result in this sanction four times, the first three times he responded to other aspects of my posts without answering this question, and the last time (my last comment there), in which I asked him this and nothing else, he did not reply at all.
I consider there to be three problems with this decision. The first is inadequate input from the community: before being implemented, this sanction should have been discussed by some uninvolved admins other than the two who had been privately contacted by the editor making the AE complaint. The second problem is that according to Wikipedia:AC/DS, before being sanctioned under discretionary sanctions Ferahgo and I should have been warned that our behavior was a problem. We were not warned, and if we had been told in advance that something we were doing was problematic, we would have been willing to avoid whatever it was from that point forward. And finally, despite multiple requests in his user talk, EdJohnston has been unwilling to tell me what misbehavior on my and Ferahgo’s part this sanction was based on. As far as I know, I haven’t done anything problematic since the end of the arbitration case—of the three diffs from me in Mathsci’s AE complaint, one was telling me Maunus in his user talk that he had misquoted me on the talk page for one of these articles, and the other two are from a discussion that an arbitrator (Coren) had asked me to initiate.
According to Wikipedia:Admin#Accountability, as well as this ruling from the Durova arbitration case, admins have a responsibility to explain the justification for the actions they take. EdJohnston has refused to do this, and as a result I still do not know what misbehavior Ferahgo and I were sanctioned for, or even whether this sanction was the result of any misbehavior from us. Since we also were not warned before receiving this sanction, as is required for discretionary sanctons, I think this sanction should be replaced with a warning for her and me to refrain from whatever behavior from us this sanction was based on, if it was based on any.
Statement by {{{User imposing the sanction}}}
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by {{{Appealing user}}}
Result of the appeal by {{{Appealing user}}}
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dojarca
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Dojarca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dojarca (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Dojarca is prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months, save for processes concerning his or her own conduct. To avoid doubt, "commencing or participating in" includes doing so by proxy.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Mkativerata (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- He watches this page, so possibly, no need to notify him.
Statement by Dojarca
The ArbCom remedy reads as follows:
Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.
The following requirements for the remedy did not met:
- I did not repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process
That is what I did here and elsewhere in Wikipedia was in line with Wikipedia's policy and if even I made any mistakes somewhere, I ceased any incorrect behavior upon notification. A first notification was always sufficient. If I was somewhere involved in repeated and serious disruptive behavior, please point to such instances.
- I was not warned before applying the remedy.
Of course, I knew about that ArbCom case and the enacted sanctions because I participated in it. On the other hand, I was not warned about any related to this AE request incorrect behavior from my side. It is obvious that the warning requirement is essential to give a user possibility to cease any wrong behavior before the sanctions and only in the case the user ignores such warnings (i.e. "dispite" them) continues wrong conduct he shall be sanctioned.
It is evident also that the warning requirement allows the administrator to formalize what behavior he considers against the rules and what he requires from the user. Since I was not warned, I had no idea of whether I break the rules and how could I improve my doings.
Just the fact of my participation in the arbcom case does not allow any administrator to impose any sanction against me without preceding warning.
The sanction enacted by Mkativerata not only does not me allow to request for enforcement of ArbCom decisions about the case with which I am familiar and involved, but also prevents me from communicating with uncivil users in the course or normal process, including reporting such basic violations of the rules as 3RR and personal attacks, placing me in a dependence of whether it would be spotted by a random administrator. Henceforward anybode can insult me and I have no right to complain.
Statement by Mkativerata
Noting that I am aware of the appeal. I have no statement to make, feeling my (and other admins') comments in the original AE speak for themselves. I will probably not comment here unless (a) I'm asked a direct question by an uninvolved administrator; or (b) I feel I'm being misrepresented.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Ncmvocalist: I did not. I considered that Dojarca's involvement in the Offliner/Piotrus AE (and offer to act as Offliner's proxy in future AEs) made him sufficiently aware of the dangers of lodging battleground AEs. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- The diff is here. Offliner was on notice of DIGWUREN sanctions. I considered that sufficient warning. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to hear Dojarca's explanation for the socking - as Fut.Perf. alludes to, the editing pattern is a little unconventional. But of course that he/she was using multiple accounts to lodge AEs in recent weeks is grounds enough to act. We can't allow sockpuppeteers to infect topic areas like this. My impression from this appeal has only firmed my confidence in the original sanction: language such as my "right" to take someone to AE and other noticeboard reflects an attitude unconducive to productive involvement in disputes. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Dojarca
The diff provided is obviously not a diff for Mkativerata's warning, but a diff of my post. The fact that you put this diff here suggests that you thought I proxied for Offliner which is not the case. If I proxied for Offliner I would say so or at least say that Offliner provided the diffs, but I evaluated the significance of the evidence myself or something similar.
Regarding that you consider enforcing ArbCom rulings a battleground behavior. If enforcing ArbCom decision is a battleground, then why the decision itself is not battleground? Maybe we should accuse ArbCom in battleground behavior against the respected EEML group?
What can you say about the Offliner's request regarding Martintg? Was it also a "battleground AE"? Which further AE against EEML will be considered battleground? Should all editors who posted here now be considered "warned" and blame themselves if punished following an AE against EEML? Dojarca (talk) 08:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement (not really more like a puzzlement) by Volunteer Marek
Ummmm.... why is that next to last statement [137], using a first person singular, as in referring to Dojarca, signed by User:MathFacts? Am I missing something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like naughtiness. I've blocked and launched an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca to determine the nature of the puppetry more exactly. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- As much as an SPI appears to be proper (no comment on the length of the block) here, I strongly object to Deacon using his administrative tools in this matter. He simply is too involved, as found on this board before and as evidenced by his frequent participation in EE-topics related dispute resolution (I'm actually quite amazed that he can state "(I) don't consider myself involved" with a straight face). There's plenty of truly uninvolved admins who are perfectly capable of acting here and in EE-topic related matters in general. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
@Timotheus Canens - it might be noteworthy that the MathFacts account was used as recently as two weeks ago to file another spurious AE request against User:Lvivske: [138]. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I do not see any further evidence of sockpuppetry, except this maybe a little suspicious.Biophys (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Responses by Peri Krohn
- Response to Fut.Perf.
Please have a closer look!
In fact, the evidence shows that Dojarca has done exactly the right thing in using his two accounts. Dojarca (talk · contribs) was involved in controversial political topics which ultimately resulted in the WP:EEML arbcom case. Dojarca withdrew from editing on 17 February 2010 and his few edits after that have been directly linked to the EEML case. These include opening Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denial of the Holodomor and making an EEML related argument, reverting a move of Occupation of the Baltic republics by Nazi Germany, and participating in Talk:Communist terrorism. When commenting on AE cases relating to the EEML case he has always logged in as Dojarca.
MathFacts (talk · contribs) started editing in March 2009. His early edits consist exclusively of non-controversial topics like Indefinite sum. I cannot find any edits in MathFacts edit history to articles that have been in dispute in the DIGWUREN or EEML cases. In November this year he made an edit to Roman Shukhevych (history), that was twice reverted by Lvivske and Galassi, prompting MathFacts to start an AE request on this notice board. I cannot see any overlap here, Even though the Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, I do not think it has ever been in the scope of interest of Dojarca or the EEML group.
- MathFacts/Dojarca had full right to keep his political and maths related edits separate.
- MathFacts has not turned to political EE topics after Dojarca withdrew.
- When returning to old EEML disputes it was exactly in line with policy for Dojarca to log in with his old account.
If someone disagrees with me, please point out a single edit thet MathFacts/Dojarca did with the wrong account. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
P.S. – As to the question of whether it is appropriate to comment on the EEML case after withdrawing from the disputes. The EEML topic bans are only temporary and will soon expire. It is quite possible that we will again see the same participants in the same disputes. In the meanwhile I see a trend on the anti-EEML side: these editors too have withdrawn from the topic area – and for the most part, from following the edits of EEML members. This situation has only been possible because of the trust that the topic bans are effective. Inability to enforce the topic bans will force the anti-EEML side to actively engage in the topics and scrutinize EEML edits. I would find such an outcome most unwanted. -- Petri Krohn (talk)
- Response to T. Canens
The policy the explicitly allows MathFacts to use Dojarca as an alternate account is Wikipedia:Sock puppetry#Legitimate uses. The example presented for privacy:
Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Wikipedia identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Wikipedia actions in that area.
Dojarca is now a single purpose account editing only in an extremely narrow topic area of Baltic occupation theories and related process pages. The topic area is highly controversial. Several Eastern European countries have passed laws which criminalize presenting some points-of-view on the topic area. In addition to prison terms people active in the topic area may face travel bans and other harassment from security services and law enforcement officials. In fact, I know of cases, both real and alleged, where Wikipedia editors have been targeted by such actions. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Questions by uninvolved Ncmvocalist
Mkativerata,
- when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Dojarca to cease making reports of this nature to AE? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Could you provide a diff for that offer? Also, when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Offliner to cease making reports of this nature to AE? I appreciate the latter of my questions is concerning a separate action and is not going to be directly covered by this appeal, however, there is a relationship which is likely to influence the outcome of this particular appeal in one way (while affecting the outcome of the potential appeal of that action in another way). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dojarca
- Other than statements made to date, answers to my questions, and the AE, I've also looked at the clarification thread that was made on this AE noticeboard and the comments made at the AE which resulted in Offliner being restricted (I've also commented on that).
- In regards to Dojarca's restriction, which is why we are here, I am inclined to oppose this particular appeal at this time. Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner, but pushed ahead with making the report of a relatively stale violation. Though I don't believe Dojarca is proxying on Offliner's behalf, I was concerned with the comment he made here where he offered to proxy, as well as (more particularly) the other comments he made in the clarification thread above. I'm convinced that it is not beneficial for Dojarca to be reporting further violations of these decisions, unless he/she is directly affected (if someone reports Dojarca for something, Dojarca should be able to participate in the thread, and if Dojarca reports someone, it should be because that someone is, for example, allegedly being uncivil to Dojarca rather than to someone else).
- That said, Deacon's concerns are justified and I don't believe it is beneficial to appear to be muzzling users. The decision is going to expire soon, but rather than appearing to ignore the concerns, administrators at AE (and even current arbitrators) should be especially mindful of the fact that there is a dissatisfaction over the lenient approach in enforcing direct violations of the relevant decision. If the edits/violations are in themselves helpful, then normally, that may be part of the grounds to have the restriction removed by AC. But this was not a normal case of disruption so it won't be; Community trust was breached after a concerted effort was made (improper external coordination) to thwart the very goals of this project, be it intentionally or otherwise (depending on the participant). Accordingly, trust needs to be regained by full compliance, not selective compliance. Therefore, in this case, rewarding users who toe the line of their restriction(s) with the outcome they were wanting is not advisable, and plain wrong.
- In regards to Offliner's restriction, should an appeal be made, I would be inclined to support it. Among the comments that were critical of Offliner's behavior, a more useful warning was provided in the thread itself by a former arbitrator, and in that respect, a formal restriction was unnecessary given that Offliner appeared willing to comply with the warning (and I wasn't the only user who seemed to be satisfied with that assurance). Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed and we wouldn't be here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner - this could be true only if to admit that I should know that any AE request against EEML member would lead to a restriction upon me. Because any requests against EEML members are in certain sense 'similar' to those of Offliner. That said any user now shell know about "high likelihood" of getting punished for any request against EEML (you warned!). Anyway I received no warning as required and as such I only could speculate whether such and such report would be considered inappropriate (if I received a warning I could crarify the matter with the admin). Of course I did not suppose that my request will be considered inappropriate. I thought Offliner was restricted just because he did too many requests and made callous the eyes of the admins here, and not because ot the substance of his request (the request seemed fully legitimate for me). That was also the reason why I suggested be proxy: I thought, admins would not so angry if another person makes the same request than Offliner who became boring.--Dojarca (talk) 10:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed - yes, and the hint was "do not report anything against EEML, we do not want to hear it". In that case yes, there would be no restriction. But also it means an indulgency for any actions by EEML members.--Dojarca (talk) 10:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You still don't understand that the main problem with your AE request was not that it was against an EEML user (whatever that is), but against the same user who was considered just 2 days ago, and over the edits made prior to a recent warning to him. It is for this reason that admins consider this request to be inappropriate. Offliner's case should have served as a warning to those who use AE inappropriately. - BorisG (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- In that case the Offliner's case could not serve as warning because his request was common and usual. What warning can bring punishment for a common and usual request? Only that not to make any requests at all. If I was punished for another reason than Offliner (i.e. for old diffs), than there was obviously no warning for not making such requests. Moreover, what repeated or serious violation is posting a request with odler diffs?--Dojarca (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have enough experience to judge if it was serious or not (certainly not repeated). However I do agree that you did not receive proper warning. But in any case, your sanction is pretty mild, you have no editing restriction, only barred from AE and such. Maybe two months without AE will be useful for you so that you can concentrate on content creation. It is like telling me at work that I am barred from attedning meetings for 2 months. That would be a blessing :). Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You still don't understand that the main problem with your AE request was not that it was against an EEML user (whatever that is), but against the same user who was considered just 2 days ago, and over the edits made prior to a recent warning to him. It is for this reason that admins consider this request to be inappropriate. Offliner's case should have served as a warning to those who use AE inappropriately. - BorisG (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Dojarca
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
The AE request that prompted this sanction was clearly disruptive. A request was brought against Piotrus by Offliner and resulted in a warning to Piotrus to take a more conservative approach to his topic ban and a restriction for Offliner. Two days later, Dojarca brings a near-identical AE request, only citing even older diffs than Offliner's. I don't see how that could be anything other than disruptive battleground behaviour, so I'm inclined to oppose this appeal. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Administrator note I've blocked Dojarca for two weeks because of socking; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca. Anyone who wishes to unblock him for the purposes of this appeal should feel free to do so. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unblock is quite unnecessary given MuZemike's Confirmed finding. Given this, I'm inclined to impose a lengthy topic ban, which would moot the present appeal. Comments are welcome. T. Canens (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Just to make sure we're being fair: is there a possibility the two accounts were meant to be legitimate topic-separated accounts under the provisions of WP:SOCK, and the edit on this page was just a one-off technical mistake about being accidentally logged in with the wrong account? At first sight, I don't see recent overlap of edits on contentious topics, and the cases where both accounts have edited the same articles appear to be mostly separated by large time intervals. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unblock is quite unnecessary given MuZemike's Confirmed finding. Given this, I'm inclined to impose a lengthy topic ban, which would moot the present appeal. Comments are welcome. T. Canens (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- A two-week block is generous if you ask me, but, absent a lengthening of the block, I'd support a nice long topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Mkativerata
- Well even if the sock was being used legitimately, that went out of the window, using an undisclosed alternate account to edit AE is inevitably going to give the impression of purporting to be another editor, even if that wasn't the intent. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space. 'nuff said. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Petri Krohn: that example is quite clear - "A person editing an article". Some potentially legitimate edits do not excuse clearly illegitmate uses. Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space, which WP:AE is a part of, period. No exceptions. Whether that account is also sometimes used in a permitted manner is irrelevant, just as no one may votestack in an AfD or in a talk page discussion, even if they are using an account supposedly created for privacy reasons. T. Canens (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space. 'nuff said. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well even if the sock was being used legitimately, that went out of the window, using an undisclosed alternate account to edit AE is inevitably going to give the impression of purporting to be another editor, even if that wasn't the intent. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Delicious carbuncle
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- "[A]n indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum", imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Delicious_carbuncle. Also discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Potential WP:CANVASSING by User:Cirt.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [139]
Statement by Delicious carbuncle
Let me first set the record straight on a few points which seem to have been misunderstood:
- Status of Jamie Sorrentini as a Scientologist
- There appears to be some confusion about whether or not Jamie Sorrentini is or is not a Scientologist. Since off-wiki postings have been brought into this, it is odd that they were not read and understood. I believe this posting by Tizano Lugli (Sorrentini's husband) says that they are still Scientologists. Much of that posting is written in incomprehensible jargon, but that is my sincere belief. At the time I didn't understand that one could be a Scientologist and not be part of the Church of Scientology, but I have since been informed that this situation is not unique.
- www.truthaboutscientology.com as a reliable source
- When Cirt first reverted my addition to Sorrentini's bio, their edit summary was "rmv source that fails WP:RS in a WP:BLP page". Given my views on Cirt's editing of CoS-related articles, I was reluctant to take that assertion at face value. Discussion of sources usually happens at WP:RSN, so I had no objection to Cirt starting a discussion there. What I objected to was the removal of the source from Sorrentini's bio -- and only Sorrentini's bio -- while that discussion was still in progress. (The removal of the source from articles occurred after I had already indicated on the article's talk page my acceptance for my edits to be reverted, but that I felt it was inappropriate for Cirt to do so.)
- Immediately after starting the discussion at RSN, Cirt posted links to it in 3 other noticeboards ([140], [141], & [142]). While I am not accusing Cirt of canvassing in this instance, it seems reasonable to assume that this would draw editors whose interests relate to religion rather than sourcing. There is now consensus about the use of this source and I am happy to go along with that consensus. In retrospect, I should not have re-added the information and I understand why it is being labelled as "pointy".
- BLP violations on Sorrentini's bio
- HJ Mitchell refers to my addition of the source as "an egregious violation of BLP". How so? The source was being used in other BLPs at the time I added it to Sorrentini's bio. There was no consensus against using the source. Although Cirt more than once made the claim that there was consensus against using this source, that is simply not true. When asked to produce a link to this consensus, Cirt linked to a discussion from 2007 which was inconclusive and in which they, then editing as User:Smee, expressed support for using the source.
- I'm not sure how I was supposed to know in advance of a discussion at RSN (let alone a consensus being reached), that I should not be using a source already used in other BLPs (and in fact added to some of those BLPs by the very person who was objecting to its use on a biography that they created).
- My involvement with Scientology
- I have no involvement with Scientology. This isn't about Scientology, it is about the even application of our policies and guidelines. Anyone who believes that anything I have written on-wiki or off-wiki shows a pro-Scientology viewpoint is simply mistaken.
I wish to appeal these sanctions on the following grounds:
- In imposing this sanction, Future Perfect states that I "knew" that Sorrentini was not a Scientologist and so my edits to her BLP were "a deliberate BLP violation". I do not know this and I believe that the opposite is true.
- Future Perfect further states "D.c.'s professions that he allegedly was not aware about any dispute about her membership [143] don't sound plausible". I say in that diff "No one has disputed that Sorrentini is a Scientologist". To be clear, what I was saying was that there was no dispute about the facts, only the sourcing of those facts, hence I didn't see the urgency in removing the information. At that time no one had disputed the assertion. If Cirt has expressed an opinion on the matter, I have not yet seen it.
- Cirt canvassed admins in an attempt to have me blocked. When that didn't work, they canvassed admins to direct them to the Arbitration Enforcement request. Future Perfect was one of those canvassed.
- Future Perfect commented in the ANI thread that precipitated this request. Their support of Cirt was quite apparent at that time. I believe it was inappropriate for them to have imposed sanctions.
- Aside from Jamie Sorrentini, I am not aware of having edited any CoS-related articles. Although I am accusing Cirt of an anti-Scientology bias, I have no position on Scientology-related articles other than in relation to our policies and guidelines. While I have no objection to Cirt filing an RFC/U about my allegations -- in fact, I would welcome it -- my part in this should not fall under ARBSCI and I feel this is simply another attempt on Cirt's part to prevent me from expressing what have proven to be valid concerns judging from the edits made thus far to the articles I have singled out.
Thank you for your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise: - I really do not understand your statement. As I have stated above, I believe Sorrentini to be a Scientologist based on the words of her husband. I believed that when I identified her as such in her bio. The information from her husband was in the off-wiki discussion you linked to in the original AE request. I am not sure why you are confused about this.
Yes, I believe Cirt created the article because Sorrentini and her husband have split from the Church of Scientology. Further, I believe that Cirt's objection to the sourcing was based on a desire to exclude information about Sorrentini's former connection to the CoS. As I have shown in the ANI thread, Cirt has added that source to several articles. As I have also shown in the ANI thread, Cirt failed to remove the source from several CoS-related articles that they had edited in the last few months. When did Cirt decide it was not a reliable source, and why did they make no effort to remove it from BLPs until I added it to Sorrentini's bio?
Why would I have any knowledge of prior discussions about the reliability of the source? I have not participated in them. I have not edited Scientology articles. I am fresh to the topic area. Which discussion would tell me that the source was not reliable? Cirt could not provide one to back their claim that there was consensus against using it. Not only is it impossible for me to prove my ignorance, there isn't even a consensus of which I can be ignorant. Your accusation is simply nonsense.
As for "this particular combination of a Wikipedia hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic", I do not consider a bluntly frank ANI thread to be "hounding", but I make no apologies for the former - I am out to expose Cirt as the anti-Scientology POV-pusher that I believe them to be. Their actions are harmful to Wikipedia and the time has come for them to stop. Which BLP violations are you referencing here? I have made none in this situation, but I have pointed out many made by Cirt.
You clearly do not have a grasp on the facts of the matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Future Perfect, it is quite evident from your replies that you have chosen to take Cirt at their word, but to dismiss anything I say as questionable. Your bias likely springs from the fact that I am "attacking" a fellow admin.
- You are correct that the citation I added to Sorrentini's bio identified her as a member of the CoS. At the time I was not aware that one could be a "Scientologist" outside of the CoS, but I had read Tizano Lugli's piece declaring them to be "Scientologists". My understanding, therefore, was that they had reconsidered their split from the CoS. I now know this not to be the case. My good-faith belief at that time was that she was a member of the CoS. My good-faith belief now is that she is a Scientologist (but not associated with the CoS, except as a critic). I have tried to make the present situation clear, since I suspect I am not the only one who did not know that there were independent Scientologists.
- Keeping up with Cirt's edits would require at least two people. I am only one person and I have better things to do. Here's my method:
- Look at a list of articles created by Cirt.
- If the article is about Scientology, there is likely a BLP violation or two that needs fixing.
- Look at the history,
- If Cirt has edited the article, did they neglect to remove those BLP violations?
- Did Cirt (or Smee) add the BLP violations?
- Done. Next article.
- You should try it. It could be interesting for you. Alternately, you could pick anything involving a well-known Scientologist and see what edits Cirt has made. Take Knight and Day. Start here. Now tell me there's no problem here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to DocJames: You seem to be saying that you have concerns about things that were published off-wiki about Cirt - this is a discussion about enforcement of ARBSCI sanctions. Are you in the right room? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- DocJames, you state that "A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Wikipedia Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games", as if I am representing Wikipedia Review in some capacity and as if a forum with hundreds of members holds one opinion about this (or anything). It appears that your opinions expressed here have nothing to do with the matter at hand, but are based on a dislike of that forum. When I posted a list of anti-CoS Wikinews articles created by Cirt in the original ANI thread, it was collapsed by one of their supporters because it dealt with off-wiki edits even though it is a sister project. I find it odd that so much attention is being given here to a particular forum which is independent of Wikipedia and functions under its own set of rules and guidelines. Attempts to impose Wikipedia's rules on off-wiki sites are misguided and unproductive but some people do not seem to be able to resist their inclination to try. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- DocJames, you keep harping on about Wikipedia Review. Should all Wikipedia editors who have contributed to that forum declare themselves to be involved and recuse themselves from this discussion? Do you have an account there? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Jehochman: Jehochman, I have already agreed at RSN that the source is unreliable and it should go without saying that I will not use it again. I would not have chosen to use it had it not already been in use at other BLPs. In fact, I cut and pasted most of the citation from where it was used at that time in the BLP of Alexandra Powers to save myself some typing. You have perhaps missed an important detail in all of this. www.truthaboutscientology.com is not a CoS website. In fact, it is the website of someone who is a critic of Scientology (and also runs a site called Scientology Lies). The information contained in the site is drawn from CoS publications.
This is an important point so I will try my best to make it clear to those willing to listen. Jehochman says "using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious". In actual fact, the use of CoS sources to establish that someone is a Scientologist seems to be common. I believe in some cases those sources are websites with testimonials from the individual, but often the sources are publications which are not available online. It is not clear to me if CoS publications are reliable sources or not since I have no familiarity with them. Cirt's POV-pushing is really just the tip of the iceberg with regard to CoS-related BLP issues, but nothing will likely change while they are free to edit CoS articles.
Incidentally, you appear to have been one of the editors to add allegations of spamming to Speedyclick.com, one of the CoS-related (or formerly CoS-related) articles discussed at ANI. That section has been removed since the Spamhaus links are no longer functional. I didn't get a chance to ask you before my topic ban, but if you recall the circumstances of the Spamhaus records, perhaps you could reinstate that section with other sources? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Jehochman, Cirt has had plenty of opportunity to reply to my charges, first at the ANI thread, then at the AE, and now at this appeal. I am quite prepared to file a request for sanctions against Cirt here if the community deems that appropriate, but I do not think that should be necessary given the amount of evidence I have already presented. My experiences with you have shown that you present yourself as a polite voice of reason and suggest that we all calmly let the current situation dissipate and then address the issues at other venues, all the while making it clear that you are willing to block editors who do not go along with your polite and reasonable suggestions. I have yet to see any case where the root cause has been addressed after the immediate dispute is put aside, usually with measures in place to ensure that the participants cannot do so themselves. I have no faith that Cirt will be sanctioned if they are not sanctioned in this current proceeding and I am unable to bring any action due to my own sanctions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Questions regarding sanctions: I am concerned that these sanctions will prevent me from addressing BLP issues that I identified while looking at CoS-related articles over this past few days. GraemeL has already threatened to block me for bringing those BLP problems to the BLP noticeboard, so I would like to be clear on which activities are proscribed by these sanctions. Can I raise issues at BLPN? Can I edit articles created or edited by Cirt but unrelated to Scientology? Can I edit articles which were formerly associated with Scientology but have been removed from that category? For example, I was planning to nominate Alexandra Powers for deletion. Can I request ARBSCI enforcement based on Cirt's activities or must someone do that? It seems unlikely that anyone else will be willing to take that on. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise
I stand by my assessment expressed here [144]. D.c. was, at the very least, insincere when he was claiming there was no dispute about that person being a Sc. member, because his whole motivation in even noticing that article was evidently because he felt Cirt had only written it because the subject had broken with Sc. Under these circumstances, his professions of innocence (begin "fresh to this" and not being aware of prior debates etc.) ring hollow: he deliberately fabricated this incident in order to gain an opportunity of exposing Cirt. It is this particular combination of a Wikipedia hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic and which, in my view, makes a long-term sanction necessary.
As to my being "involved": I'm not. I gave an administrative comment in the previous ANI thread, warning D.c. that I found his method of accusations problematic and that it made him liable to sanctions. Last time I looked, we are supposed to warn users before sanctioning them, right? – As for Cirt's posting on my page, as I said before, I didn't even read it, and if I had, it would naturally have made me more prejudiced against Cirt than against D.c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Further to D.c.'s defense above: D.c. now entangles himself in self-contradictions. He claims he had reason to believe in good faith that J.S. still was a scientologist, despite the 2010 reports that she had left – but he was quoting a source from before the time she reportedly split, which under these circumstances he had to know was evidently irrelevant. He is also now making that distinction between being a CoS member and being a scientologist – but in his edits to the article he was unambiguously claiming CoS membership [145]. As for being or not being aware of the backstory about the preceding discussions regarding the reliability of that website, D.c. had evidently spent a lot of time following Cirt's editing, over several months. He was able, within a day of the time the J.S. conflict was created, to cite numbers of instances where Cirt had been dealing with that source, even with articles where the link no longer was in the article (and would therefore not be findable through the external-links tool). The only way D.c. could have had of knowing about these cases was if he had systematically searched through all of Cirt's contributions. I simply don't believe he did all of that after deciding to spark off the D.J. kerfluffle, and I also don't believe he could collect all the instances where Cirt added or failed to remove that link, without becoming aware of the surrounding discussions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Cirt
Please see the initial AE report I had made about Deliciuos carbuncle - the evidence of that user's actions is all there. I admit that I was wrong to post in the manner in which I did about the user to multiple user talk pages. That was inappropriate, and it stemmed from my frustration over ongoing and repeated WP:WIKIHOUNDING against me by Jayen466 (talk · contribs), which has been a quite disturbing pattern for over three years now. I let Jayen466 (talk · contribs)'s WP:WIKIHOUNDING get the better of me, and I became frustrated and acted inappropriately. But the evidence I originally presented about Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) still stands as valid. -- Cirt (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by DocJames
What DC has written off Wikipedia is inappropriate harassment [146] [147] A ban or further interaction with Cirt was not proposed because of a persistent pattern of inappropriate editing of Scientology article but for inappropriate behavior WRT another editor.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Griswaldo
I'm on record already, in more than one venue, regarding the inappropriate nature of these sanctions. I initiated Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? after a failed direct appeal to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise on their talk page to consider allowing a truly uninvolved admin do the job. It is important to look at the chain of events here.
- Cirt files an AN/I about Delicious carbuncle's editing of Jamie Sorrentini.
- Carbuncle decides to use the AN/I platform to air his various complaints about Cirt's POV editing of Scientology related entries.
- Cirt contacts various admins to help him out at AN/I, but no remedies are enacted (for the canvassing evidence see here.
- During this AN/I discussion Future Perfect levies the following criticism/threat at carbuncle - "If you feel those articles are problematic, then go and fix them, otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you."
- After no remedies are found at AN/I Cirt takes the discussion to AE, and proceeds to contqact more admins (see above link), this time appealing directly to Future Perfect.
- Future Perfect's first edits to the AE discussion are to impose sanctions on carbuncle.
The combination of 4, 5, and 6 above, in swift succession is disturbing to say the least. Future Perfect claims to be "uninvolved" and to not have read Cirt's appeal on his/her talk page, simply glancing at it as reminder of the AE. Well we cannot know that, nor can we know what Future Perfect's intentions were. All we know is that 1) Future Perfect issued a threat to carbuncle, 2) Cirt asked Future Perfect to come to AE, and 3) Future Perfect made good on his/her threat. If that isn't improper I don't know what is.
Then there is the matter of the sanction itself, which appears Draconian to say the least. How can you ban an editor from complaining about policy violations EVER? The supposed "interaction" ban imposed dissallows carbuncle from raising complaints about Cirt, in the area of Scientology. Really? No matter what you think of Cirt it appears to be common knowledge that Cirt has a very strong anti-Scientology POV. And now he gets a free pass from the criticism of an editor who beleives he has crossed the line? How on earth is that ever appropriate? In short I think Future Perfect erred rather egregiously here. I really wish they took my initial request with more humility and simply let someone else deal with this. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Question - Why is the sanctioning admin commenting in a section reserved for "uninvolved administrators"? Certainly at this point Future Perfect is no longer "uninvolved".Griswaldo (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Jayen466
I propose that the original complaint be re-tried, by a quorum of at least five (5) administrators who have not been solicited by either party, and do not have a history of participation in arbitration cases involving cults. Any decision to reflect consensus among said admins, with a majority of four (4) required to take a decision. Does this sound fair? --JN466 14:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- That is not how AE works. We should not propose random arbitrary new procedures mid-case. -- Cirt (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Scott MacDonald re BLP issues
I don't care about AE, Scientology or who Canvassed whom, but I do care about BLPs. I make no bones about the fact that I read on Wikipedia Review that Cirt was POV pushing on Scientology matters, so I took a look.
I came to the article Jamie Sorrentini, which Cirt had created and maintained. The article was clearly not neutral, it was puffed in every imaginable way (see this version). I don't normally worry about over-positive BLPs, but I googled around and (fairly unreliable) sources identified her connection to Scientology. The blogosphere indicates she's now an noted ex-scientologist (although, again, the sources are unreliable.
The article didn't mention Scientology at all, but I wondered about Cirt's motivation and neutrality, so I performed a moderate clean-up, removing some of the puffery. I was met with Cirt's aggressive ownership of the article, and his fairly aggressive attitude [148] when I sought uninvolved input on the BLPNB. Cirt is obviously NOT neutral on such BLPs.
It was at this point DC added info to the bio claiming she was a scientologist. The material was a clear BLP violation, and poorly sourced. (More worryingly it presented her as a Scientologist when it appears she is no longer one.) I supported Cirt in the removal of it. See the discussion here
However, it appears that DC's motivation was pointed, since Cirt had used exactly the same source on a number of occasions to label living people as Scientologists. So Cirt's objection to it here was hypocritical. See the important discussion here.
The Wikipoltics and personalities here are not interesting. What's important is that Cirt is obviously pushing agendas in BLPs and that DC is willing to breach the BLP policy to make a point in response.
Cut to the chase: Arbcom ought to ban DC and Cirt from all Scientology related BLPs. We can't have people pushing agendas or fighting wikibattles at the expense of the bios of living people.--Scott Mac 16:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Should we delete all of Cirt's featured articles related to Scientology? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Jehochman Talk 16:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting we delete anything. I'm suggesting people with agendas don't push them on BLPs, and admins of Cirt's standing get zero tolerance here - there's no excuse. What doesn't make sense about that?--Scott Mac 16:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Cirt knows how to write proper articles. If you have concerns about specific edits, please file a report at WP:BLPN, or start a new enforcement request, rather than complicating this thread, which is not about Cirt. Let's focus on the sanction appeal. Jehochman Talk 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Stop wikilawyering. I'm trying to set the context here, so we don't swallow camels and strain gnats. This discussion is too spread out and atomised as it is without me opening yet another thread.--Scott Mac 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Cirt knows how to write proper articles. If you have concerns about specific edits, please file a report at WP:BLPN, or start a new enforcement request, rather than complicating this thread, which is not about Cirt. Let's focus on the sanction appeal. Jehochman Talk 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting we delete anything. I'm suggesting people with agendas don't push them on BLPs, and admins of Cirt's standing get zero tolerance here - there's no excuse. What doesn't make sense about that?--Scott Mac 16:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- This strikes me, from my own reading of the relevant threads to be an excellent and concise summary of events, please let me know if something was missed. I concur with Scott MacDonald's proposed remedy. un☯mi 17:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't commented much on the Cirt side of things so far, but I have to say I'm beginning to see some of these problems too. He may be a valuable contributor about the topic as a whole, but perhaps it would be good if he kept away from related BLPs. No opinion on whether this should be handled within this thread or yet somewhere else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)
I agree with the topic ban and interaction ban whole heartedly, though I disagree with the imposed length of the bans. I think Carbuncle certainly set this up as the between his statements at Wikipeida Review suggest his pleading ignorance here is misdirection.
That being said, I am uncomfortable with the way Furture Presents bans appear whether or not it is that way I am unsure.
Short timeline
- 07:52, 8 December 2010 [149] Cirt appropriately ANI thread on DC's BLP violations
- 22:47, 11 December 2010 [150] First comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise
- 23:18, 11 December 2010 [151] Secondd comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise quote "otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you. "
- 04:22, 13 December 2010 [152] Cirt Issues request appropriately files an AE request
- 15:20, 13 December 2010 [153] Cirt's appeals to Future perfect sunrise to intervene on his behalf at AE involving Jayen466
- 19:40, 13 December 2010 [154] Future Perfect Sunrise issues a indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum."
In the results section it clearly says:
"This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above."
To me this is not about whether DC deserved such remedies, but rather was it appropriate after being requested by Cirt to look at the AE and had been involved in ANI. The question is whether it was truly appropriate for him to consider himself as uninvolved to enforce such actions and whether he violated the WP:INVOLVED Clause of Admin regulations.
Frankly I cannot but feel the entire situation is tainted by Future Perfects actions and cannot support these sanctions at this time
Evidence Submitted by The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Another Statement
The section Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle states: This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I feel it is inappropriate for people who have commented at ANI involved with this situation and who's enforcement is under question to be editing within that section The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
As of 18:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I have yet to see any uninvolved Admins make a comment in the Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncleThe Resident Anthropologist (talk)- You seem to have missed me. How do you think I am involved in this dispute? Jehochman Talk 18:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- apologies having reviewed your comments at ANI you are indeed correct. Above comment stricken The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed me. How do you think I am involved in this dispute? Jehochman Talk 18:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by GraemeL
As an admin who became involved with the problems surrounding Delicious carbuncle when he moved his grievances to WP:BLPN, I threatened to block him for disruption and wrote here in support of sanctions against him. However, I think that the proposed remedy (being appealed here) was far too harsh, a permanent topic ban should only be used if he continues to try and forum shop and cause disruption to other editors and other (more lenient) sanctions fail to change his behaviour.
That said, I think the current proposed sanctions, while in the correct order of magnitude, are (as is being argued by some non-involved admins) on the side of being too lenient, but feel that the current discussions below seem to be zeroing in on an more appropriate response to this editors behaviour. --GraemeL (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Delicious carbuncle
Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I believe the sanction is unnecessary. However, using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious. If that fact is relevant to the biography, surely it would be reported by a reliable secondary source. The consensus appears to be against using this source. DC will you abide by the consensus even if you don't agree with it? Cirt, will you drop the matter? Jehochman Talk 16:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm afraid your comment partly misses the mark: D.c. has already agreed that the source is inappropriate. The issue is that it very much appears he knew from the start it was not only inappropriate in general, but also outdated in this particular case, and he only used it in a deliberate POINT maneuvre to create an opportunity for lampooning the fact that Cirt had used the same source previously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence that what DC did was malicious. Simply treat it as a mistake, ask him to stop, and if he agrees, the matter is resolved. Jehochman Talk 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Given the fact that this was part of a long-standing personalized conflict with Cirt, as documented on Wikipediareview and elsewhere, and – whatever his beliefs about the concrete details of the facts of that bio at any one time – the whole episode was clearly manifactured on his part, with the main goal not of improving the biography but of provoking and setting up his opponent, I'm afraid I cannot muster this amount of AGF here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think (assuming as much good faith as I can) this was a BLP violation performed to out Cirt's use of the same dubious source on a number of articles.--Scott Mac 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Can we please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. A source was disputed. This minor dispute was escalated needlessly, causing several lengthy and unproductive discussions. Would you all please try to work together. Failing that, I support dishing out blocks for WP:BATTLE to those who want to keep fighting. Jehochman Talk 17:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Are you threatening me with a block, for handing out an arbitration enforcement sanction and defending it afterwards?! You've got some nerve. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Jehochman! Where the fuck did that come from? We're tying to work out what's going on here and how we best enforce neutrality wrt Scientology, which is the point of the whole arbcom case. Threatening to block people for raising related issues you don't like is ridiculous aggression. Block me for that, I'll block you back, and then we'll all be blocked. Knock it off - this is schoolboy bullying WP:BATTLE tactics at their lowest..--Scott Mac 17:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Can you make your point without cursing and name-calling? Jehochman Talk 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Gents, please. I think you've all misunderstood each other and, of not, should resolve this on your own talk pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Can you make your point without cursing and name-calling? Jehochman Talk 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Are you threatening me with a block, for handing out an arbitration enforcement sanction and defending it afterwards?! You've got some nerve. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Can we please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. A source was disputed. This minor dispute was escalated needlessly, causing several lengthy and unproductive discussions. Would you all please try to work together. Failing that, I support dishing out blocks for WP:BATTLE to those who want to keep fighting. Jehochman Talk 17:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think (assuming as much good faith as I can) this was a BLP violation performed to out Cirt's use of the same dubious source on a number of articles.--Scott Mac 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Given the fact that this was part of a long-standing personalized conflict with Cirt, as documented on Wikipediareview and elsewhere, and – whatever his beliefs about the concrete details of the facts of that bio at any one time – the whole episode was clearly manifactured on his part, with the main goal not of improving the biography but of provoking and setting up his opponent, I'm afraid I cannot muster this amount of AGF here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence that what DC did was malicious. Simply treat it as a mistake, ask him to stop, and if he agrees, the matter is resolved. Jehochman Talk 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Proposed resolutions
- Short blocks to those disputants who continue to battle after being warned by any uninvolved administrator.
- Overturn sanction on DC, and instead issue a warning not to use dubious primary sources in WP:BLP articles.
- I support these both. Jehochman Talk 17:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I support the blocks, but a warning is just too lenient. I'm going to suggest a medium term (maybe a couple of months) ban on editing BLPs related to scientology and on adding material related to scientology to other BLPs and maybe a mutual interaction ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Scott Mac's evidence demonstrates the problem cuts both ways. This discussion is illuminative. I suggest both Cirt and DC are topic-banned from BLPs within the topic area for two months. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd support that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - this discussion has clearly and unambiguously demonstrated the wisdom of its original imposition, whether the decision was as uninvolved as ideal or not. I believe that we don't need a new sanction to block disruptive editors. I support launching a User RFC on Cirt and Scientology edits to determine if there's good evidence for a real problem or not - this discussion here is generating far too much heat and little light to be of rational value in determining that, and it's not the right venue in any case. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- This is within an area of conflict in which discretionary sanctions apply. The correct place to discuss Cirt's behaviour within the area of conflict is here, not in yet another forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - We have not sufficiently discussed other editors to hand out further sanction. A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Wikipedia Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games. It appears that we have a lot of personality conflicts and people need to get back to writing content rather than biting each other. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Are you purporting to be an "uninvolved administrator"? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- In that I do not / have not edited pages on Scientology
and you?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)- I just wanted to clarify - because you've made "above the line" statements in the original AE and on the appeal, and you appear to have quite clear views, I am not sure whether you consider yourself involved or uninvolved. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- In that I do not / have not edited pages on Scientology
- Are you purporting to be an "uninvolved administrator"? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to argue for shortening this one. According to WP:ARBSCI, "If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." I'm not seeing anything in that decision to authorise an indef topic ban as imposted. That said, I find DC's behaviour worthy of the sanction authorised. Courcelles 20:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
The consensus appears to be that DC's topic ban is upheld. Per WP:ARBSCI, this being the first infraction, the ban length is three months, per Courcelles. As for Cirt, this thread is an appeal of a sanction. It is not going to impose a sanction on Cirt, without prejudice to somebody starting a separate thread where evidence of misbehavior by Cirt may be put forward and Cirt given a chance to respond. Finally, if editors involved in this dispute decide to carry on in other venues, they are risking a possible block for WP:BATTLE. If the next administrator, who has not commented here yet, would be so kind as to close the thread, that would be appreciated. Jehochman Talk 21:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
There is precedent and mandate for imposing restrictions on Cirt if necessary. Per Scott's summary, they seem necessary to me. Topic ban both of them for the same length of time. Note: I don't think this is closable yet, as there is open business. ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree that whatever sanction is imposed on one should be the same for the other, but I think a ban on editing scientology-related BLPs and adding scientology-related information to other BLPs better gets to the crux of the disruption. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with HJ Mitchell on this one. All sanctions in this case should be bilateral, and include a mutual interaction ban. That would stop all of the silliness we have seen. Perhaps a community-based restriction discussion at WP:AN would be an appropriate venue, if this isn't it? --Jayron32 22:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) ---
This editor is highly involved and is not allowed to post here. Jehochman Talk 22:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC) - (edit conflict)Agree with both Lar and HJ. It is well-established that AE can consider the actions of all relevant parties, including the filer of the AE. There is no reason not to extend that principle to appeals. Discretionary sanctions don't even need to arise from AEs to begin with - they can be imposed at any administrator's discretion. Given that Cirt is an admin, and the clear evidence that he/she attempted to procure a favourable result at the AE by improper canvassing, we need to be all the more careful not to create an impression of flick-passing this to other venues.--Mkativerata (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with HJ Mitchell on this one. All sanctions in this case should be bilateral, and include a mutual interaction ban. That would stop all of the silliness we have seen. Perhaps a community-based restriction discussion at WP:AN would be an appropriate venue, if this isn't it? --Jayron32 22:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) ---
(undent) It seems like we have a group of people using Wikipedia Review to solicit support for criticizing Crit. Here we find User:Lar and User:Jayen466 for example. [155] Measures may need to be expanded a bit beyond these two to address off site attacks. BTW is Wikipedia Review counted as WP:CANVASSING? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I am really uneasy about this group of editors showing up here in the uninvolved section lobbying for new sanctions in an appeal. Cirt hasn't been presented with evidence of wrongdoing, and hasn't been given a chance to respond. This is irregular and improper, and if it continues, I will ask ArbCom to scrutinize the behavior of all concerned. Jehochman Talk 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes Cirt has. And I'm very happy for you report me to arbcom for whatever imaginary things you've already threatened to block me for. Beware the boomerang though. I don't see your reaction here as indicating disinterest or neutrality.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- In fairness to Cirt, if somebody thinks there is a problem, please put together the evidence and start a thread. This thread is very noisy and disorganized. It is not proper to sanction an editor who has generated lots of high quality content without giving them a fair chance to respond to concerns. Jehochman Talk 22:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Per the evidence above, I strongly support the view that Cirt's long term bias in this area merits at least as long a BLP topic ban as DC's one violation. Violating BLP to prove a point as DC did is poor, but the point is itself not a bad one.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at Wikipedia review it appears that it is only possible do determine who some of the people commenting are. We do however have previously involved by User:Jayen466 and User: Delicious carbuncle while User:Lar commented on the threat but not really about Cirt. Is there anyway to determine if others here are also involved with what appears to be a coordinated effort over there?
- Also Scott Mac appears involved [156] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Involved in what? The only thing I'm ever involved with these days is concerns about BLP. I've presented evidence of Cirt's problematic attitude to BLP editing here. It is probably best to defend Cirt by rebutting the charge, rather than hunting for conspiracies. Nice attempt to deflect, but it doesn't wash.--Scott Mac 23:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You have been involved with editing the page that this whole thing is about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- So?--Scott Mac 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Doc James: If we're going to start flinging tar with a broad brush (to mix metaphors) I think it's possible your own actions need further scrutiny, actually. That said, I think trying to claim I'm involved because I commented on a person who commented on Cirt is a bit of a stretch. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Lar yes I have acknowledged that above. Your not really involved. I only brought this up as if we are going to address canvassing a few more people may be involved. We all really need to get back to editing though and I do not think this is place to deal with it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You have been involved with editing the page that this whole thing is about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Involved in what? The only thing I'm ever involved with these days is concerns about BLP. I've presented evidence of Cirt's problematic attitude to BLP editing here. It is probably best to defend Cirt by rebutting the charge, rather than hunting for conspiracies. Nice attempt to deflect, but it doesn't wash.--Scott Mac 23:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Assuming it's not to late to say so, I think the 2 resolutions above are quite reasonable. If the topic and/or interaction ban is intended to quell the drama, I also support applying it to both parties (applying to one or another seems unlikely to have much of a quelling effect). --SB_Johnny | talk 23:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)