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::(1) From [WP:TE]: ''You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people.'' |
::(1) From [WP:TE]: ''You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people.'' |
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::(2) Ok, you have convinced me to support the ban. - [[User:BorisG|BorisG]] ([[User talk:BorisG|talk]]) 14:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC) |
::(2) Ok, you have convinced me to support the ban. - [[User:BorisG|BorisG]] ([[User talk:BorisG|talk]]) 14:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::: "The sentence is sourced to a RS. Unless it is shown that this is not what the source says, it can stay. I don't have the source to check."[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Six-Day_War#Suez_Crisis_aftermath] -- BorisG |
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::: "More generally, assessment of what is right and what is wrong in a RS is OR. We need to see what the source says and how it explains it."[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BorisG#Your_objection_to_my_proposed_edit] -- BorisG |
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::: "The statement is based on a reliable source. If the reliable source does say this, then it belogs to the article."[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BorisG#Your_objection_to_my_proposed_edit] -- BorisG |
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::: BorisG, my above comment was specifically in reference to our discussions over my proposed edit here:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Six-Day_War#Suez_Crisis_aftermath]. You repeatedly said that so long as the source said what the article says it says, the text should remain. That did not convince me, because it is a logical fallacy. As I repeatedly observed in response, the question is whether the article accurately characterizes the UNEF mandate, which it demonstrably does not; it demonstrably violates [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]], which is the underlying issue I repeatedly tried to get you to address, to no avail. The full explanation for "Tendentious Editing": |
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::: ''If your arguments are rejected, bring better arguments, don’t simply repeat the same ones. And most importantly, examine your argument carefully, in light of what others have said. It is true that people will only be convinced if they want to be, regardless of how good your argument may be, but that is not grounds for believing that your argument must be true. You must be willing to concede you may have been wrong. Take a good, long hard look at your argument from as detached and objective a point of view as you can possibly muster, and see if there really is a problem with it. If there isn't, it's best to leave the situation alone: they're not going to want to see it and you cannot force them to. If there is a problem, however, then you should revise the argument, your case, or both.''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TE] |
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::: Your unwillingness to acknowledge your logical fallacy when I repeatedly pointed it out to you, your continual repeating of that logical fallacy despite my having pointed it out as such, and your refusal to actually address my own argument on any point of fact or logic clearly demonstrates that it was you and not I are guilty of "Tendentious Editing". Hypocrite. [[User:JRHammond|JRHammond]] ([[User talk:JRHammond|talk]]) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC) |
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===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by [[User:JRHammond]] === |
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by [[User:JRHammond]] === |
Revision as of 22:37, 7 September 2010
Nishidani
No action taken, Nishidani is cautioned to mind the borders of his ban. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nishidani
Not applicable.
Discussion concerning NishidaniStatement by NishidaniOkay. Despite my desire to ignore this, after this edit, which rehashes Cptnono's point, and which was quickly elided and replaced by this below, the plaintiff Broccoli appears to insinuate, by the rhetorical device of a mischievous query without basis in what Roland wrote, that Roland is charging Mr Wales with a '"racially-motivated abuse" towards Peter Cohen. Since Roland spoke on my behalf, I feel obliged to reciprocate the courtesy. Roland, like Peter, and myself, is alluding to a very complex history of interactions with Einsteindonut, who in 2008 questioned Peter's ethnicity, and went on to smear him, as did the JIDF organization, and DA, whom most presume on good grounds to be Einsteindonut's lumpenavatar. Roland's words are directed to this, not to Mr Wales. As a matter of curiosity, you have made 1200 edits in nearly 3 years. We have, I believe, never edited the same pages. Never crossed paths. Why this sudden focus on three remarks made, among hundreds by dozens of editors, which I happened to make in defence of a Jewish editor's integrity and reputation on wikipedia, one a rather humorously ironic joust at a person who caused immense disruption, and outside of wikipedia, would have deserved stronger language? When I said I would defend Peter even if in doing so, I was 'risking' an extension of my I/P ban, I was not referring to the Arbcom decision. I was referring to the fact that, from experience, I am tracked and trailed from edit to edit, and 'dobbed in' or 'grassed' if there is even the slightest possibility my words might well be maliciously twisted so that they could seem to allude, by any stretch of the imagination, to Israel and Palestine. I.e. I knew that in defending a Jewish person, there was the strong likelihood that someone out there who enjoys pettifogging might slip into that faulty syllogism which runs:'Ah, Nishidani spoke about (on behalf of) Jews. Israel is Jewish, (at least 80% of it). Arbcom ruled he cannot touch anything regarding Israel. Anything Jewish is Israeli, ergo, gotcha!'. This is the way Cptono thinks, and you repeat it. If the Arbcom decision effectively marries this antic proposal, then I can't defend the Peter Cohens or Rolands of Wikipedia against the kind of smears, often about their ethnicity, they are frequently subject to. The source of this operation (the smearing of Peter Cohen) was a one-man American agitprop operation, that smears Jews. I thought long and hard before intervening in that DA thread because I took to heart the wise caution last month directed my way by Malik Shabazz. Mr Wales, as I see it, stepped into a very complex story without knowing the background, and I thought it my duty to speak up in those terms whatever the consequences, in the mind of those who lurk for fishing opportunities to run to the cops, precisely because many editors are unfamiliar with the details. For the record, though subject over the years, as my archives show, to repeated attacks calling me all names from anti-Semite to Jew-basher to Israel-hater, I have never once referred those editors to Arbcom. I think this tells something on behalf of my bona fides, whatever the specious diffs of my shortlist of sanctions may appear to suggest. I can understand why appeal for sanctions is sometimes required in order to remove obstinate POV-warriors and make editing easier, but I don't personally subscribe to it, because esp. in the I/P area all recourse to wikilaw, rather than patient discussion, lends itself to manipulation and gaming. In fact the I/P area cannot be edited seriously because it optimizes rallying the numbers to determine content, warring and temptations to use administrative fiats to out editors. Being banned from it, objectively, was a relief, though it saddens me to see that nothing has changed. Tutto qua.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Nishidani
Regarding whether Nishidani's comments were a violation, they were pretty much on the borderline. In situations such as this, some discretion is allowable, and given that Nishidani wasn't being disruptive, I don't think a block would achieve anything. PhilKnight (talk) 19:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Nishi's comments were in a thread unrelated to the topic area. Cptnono says it was about the article on the "JIDF", a "Jewish internet defense" group that oddly attacks Jews on the internet. The thread was not about the article on the JIDF and anybody who read the thread would not say that it was. But Nishi needs a forceful reminder that this place is not good enough for him. A block for editing in an area that he is not restricted from would give such a reminder. nableezy - 01:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Of course i see double standards here. mbz1 was blocked when she asked to remove I/P related cartoon [6]. Nishidani was not blocked, when he added I/P related cartoon [7].--58.8.110.113 (talk) 06:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
(ec withe below)
@WGFinley Assuming the clause of the sanction relevent to the 1st diff would be "or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles.", but there [9] Nishidani is commenting on offsite "wikistalking" of another user, not article content or anything directly related to such; also the topic ban isn't from "Jewish topics". Then re your diff, Nish's sanction does not preclude him from discussing the banned topics on user talk pages. Misarxist (talk) 12:33, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Nishidani
The first diff appears to be damning to me. The Arb decision states he's not allowed to even comment on community pages about such topics. On its face it's on topic as he brought it himself with the Jewish references. When looking into this I found one of my own [10], clear comment on another user's talk page about Jewish Defense Force. --WGFinley (talk) 07:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
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174.112.83.21
User warned on talk page, SPI case filed. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 174.112.83.21
As an additional point, the editing history of this IP looks a bit interesting with very sporadic (and apparently minor) edits in 2009 followed by a surge of activity, in Israeli-Palestine articles, beginning August 13, 2010.
Discussion concerning 174.112.83.21Statement by 174.112.83.21Comments by others about the request concerning 174.112.83.21Comments by Supreme DeliciousnessI believe that 174.112.83.21 is in fact user User:Breein1007 and that he has decided to edit as an IP because of all the warnings, blocks etc he got with his main account so he is now editing with an IP so he can behave in whatever way he wants, edit warring and incivility. Comments such as this: A user asks: "What makes Israel a developed country?" "I think the proper term to describe it is developing." [11] Breeins/174.112.83.21 response: "hahahahahahahahahaha says the guy from jordan. is this meant to be a joke?" and then ads it again: [12] They both have the same uncivil behavior: IP "wtf are you talking about" Breein: "What the hell are you talking about in your edit summary?" See for example this where the IP makes a comment and Breein continues the discussion: [13] Breein has made posts in hebrew:[14] IP also makes posts in hebrew: [15] I also have personal information that links Breein to this IP. Breein was notified of Arbcom in 18 november 2009 [16] I previously filed an enforcement for the things he had done, several of the admins wanted to act on it but for some reason it became stale and it was archived without being closed: [17] The fact that he is now continuing the same edit warring and uncivil behavior as an IP instead of his main account is something that should be stopped. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning 174.112.83.21
I believe this is the wrong venue, this should go to WP:SPI. Unless someone objects I will close and ask it be filed there. --WGFinley (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:JRHammond
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by User:JRHammondUser:Wgfinley exercises extreme prejudice against me. He has previously violated WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me.[20] He has previously blocked me on spurious pretexts, leading to my appeal and the block being lifted.[21] And he has otherwise continually harassed me, including by threatening to ban me on the basis that I was contributing to the Talk page after his previous ban on me had expired and accusing me of edit warring when I couldn't even edit the article if I wanted to, as it is under protection![22] His pretexts in this case are equally spurious. Examining his stated reasons for the ban:
(1) Ad hominem arguments are no basis for a ban. User:Wgfinley grossly mischaracterizes me here. He insinuates that I have been unwilling to collaborate, but offers nothing to support that contention, which I reject absolutely. I have gone through enormous efforts to try to discuss issues with other editors. In fact, I have practically begged other editors to participate and express their approval/disapproval of certain edits I've proposed in an effort to get others involved in an attempt to improve the article, e.g.:[23] He characterizes my contributions to the talk page as "tendentious", but again offers no substantiation for that charge, which I reject absolutely. I stand by all my expressions of concern over certain content I have sought to improve with what I contend are perfectly reasonable recommended edits that are in total compliance with WP:NPOV and other relevant Wikipedia guidelines. (2) User:Wgfinley would have people believe I have openly defied an administrator by pronouncing my intention to abuse the "editprotected" template. This charge is absolutely baseless. Here is the exchange to which he refers: User:Amatulic told me:
To which I responded:
Anyone may verify that I did indeed do exactly as the admin had outlined before employing the template. The whole premise of User:Wgfinley's pretext here is thus completely spurious. I had used the template in accordance with the guidelines given, and I said I would continue to employ the template in compliance with its intended purpose, contrary to what User:Wgfinley would have people believe with his deliberate mischaracterization. (3) There is no Wikipedia guideline that I am aware of that limits the amount of participation an editor may make on the talk page. Are we seriously supposed to consider that, as User:Wgfinley suggests, that extensive contributions to the Talk page and laborious efforts to improve the article ("100 edits in just a couple days", which is hyperbole, but, yes, I've been highly active) constitute a reason for an indefinite ban? User:Wgfinley continues with his stated pretexts:
(4) Again, I did not abuse the "editprotected" template, as outlined above. I used it precisely as the admin told me it should be used. I also absolutely did not in any way say or suggest that its "proper usage of it is 'unreasonable'". User:Wgfinley is being totally disingenuous. It was improper usage of the template I said was "unreasonable", which was very clear from my statement. The context: I pointed out a problem with the article and offered what I maintain to be an uncontroversial solution to resolve it. The proposed fix remained for a number of days and I explicitly stated my intent to employ the template to have the edit made, calling upon others to approve or state their objections, if any. After no objections were raised, I utilized the template. It was deactivated because of a misunderstanding by User:MSGJ. As this admin suggested I wait for an extended period of time, I, agreeing and complying with his request, did not reactivate the template. [25] Later, User:Amatulic expressed the following:
And again:
To which I replied:
This statement constitutes no basis for an indefinite ban whatsoever. There is nothing on the page explaining the proper usage of the template that supports the view here that a proposed edit (an uncontroversial one at that) that has received no objections after a reasonable period of time cannot be implemented.[28]. Moreover, User:Amatulic's suggestion that I "won't find an administrator on Wikipedia who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus" is a baseless opinion. First, the article may be contentious, but my proposed edit is not. Second, I did find an admin who very clearly agreed with my view on the proper use of the template. After the misunderstanding I noted above was cleared up with the admin who deactivated the template, that admin stated:
Thus, here is an admin, User:MSGJ who clearly shares my view on the proper and reasonable usage of the template, that directly contradicts User:Amatulic's position and demonstrates the fallacy of his argument, all of which also demonstrates incontrovertibly that this entire premise for User:Wgfinley's ban on this count is wholly spurious. Continuing:
(5) I have in no way been uncivil. Nor did I accuse anyone of making personal attacks. User:Wgfinley is again being disingenuous. What I stated on numerous occasions is that people were relying on ad hominem argumentation, which they were. User:Wgfinley's misunderstanding of what an ad hominem argument is does not constitute a reasonable basis for an indefinite ban, any more than my repeated observations that others, rather than addressing the facts and logic of my argument(s), instead have attempted to appeal to supposed prejudice on my part. It's a fact that others did so, and this is, by definition, ad hominem argumentation. I've repeatedly requested other editors refrain from employing such logical fallacies in their responses, and instead address the issues I've raised substantively. My doing so does not constitute any basis whatsoever for an indefinite ban. In sum, User:Wgfinley has yet again[30][31] offered entirely spurious pretexts for his ban, which is all the more unreasonable in that it is indefinite. I request that the ban be lifted, and I further request that action be taken to prevent User:Wgfinley from harassing me further with baseless accusations and banning/attempting to ban me on spurious pretexts consisting of dishonest, false, and otherwise misleading characterizations.
REQUEST FOR ADMINS What Wikipedia policy guideline have I violated to warrant this ban? Please state which one(s). In what way have I violated said Wikipedia policy guidelines? Please quote me where I said anything in violation of said guideline(s), or point to the diff for whatever action of mine was in violation of said guideline(s). Short of that, please lift this ban immediately. Thank you. JRHammond (talk) 01:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by User:WgfinleyI had a whole section here but I'm removing it to save on clutter. I explained the ban on the user's talk page in detail so it can be found there. I think his statement is clear evidence of his tendentious, combative and disruptive nature. I stand by everything that was here previously I just no longer see a need for it and wish to keep this space tidy. --WGFinley (talk) 13:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Outing AccusationThis user edits using his real name (as I do), on its face he has outed himself. There was an article he posted on one of his websites that I thought could be seen as canvassing in the comments section with its references to Wikipedia as well as its numerous references to his own original research on the subject of the Wikipedia in question. I thought he should disclose this to the editors of the article as he was frequently being accused of original research. There's no outing here, it's off-wiki material leading to on-wiki behavior which has been covered in previous Arb cases. InvolvedRegarding JP's statement below, I am most assuredly not involved (emphasis mine):
I've only had administrative action on the article, nothing more. JRH has gone through at least 3 admins before me and has shown a willingness to admin shop. Are we going to allow him to wheel war or are we going to allow admins who are not involved in editing the article continue to remediate (at length if necessary) as clearly outlined in the policy? The number of admins who will take up the mop on P-I articles is few as it is and this would make it worse. --WGFinley (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC) LengthI picked indefinite as JRH has shown no intention of changing his behavior. His last block was for intentionally violating an article ban[50] to do a tendentious edit[51]. What did he do as soon as he came back? Started repeatedly submitting the same edit [52] using the {{editprotected}} template to admin shop. [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] . Length seems to be of no consequence to him because we have the wrong version. --WGFinley (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Since I had some time I have added some diffs. I thought this case to be rather obvious and textbook but diffs now supplied of him immediately coming back trying to get his edit in that he was blocked for, ignoring opposing viewpoints, adding the {{editprotected}} template with no consensus 4 times in a 24 hour period and then states he has no intention of stopping. JRH's idea of consensus is to count the hands raised ignoring those of anyone who disagrees. There's too much in this appeal already, if other uninvolved admins have questions for me I'll be happy to answer. --WGFinley (talk) 15:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by User:BorisGOver the years I made very minor contributions to Six-Day War and its talk page Talk:Six-Day War, and as far as I recall, User:JRHammond has always been active there. When I read the article Wikipedia:Tendentious editing which an administrator cited yesterday, my first thought was that it was written about User:JRHammond. He is extremely knowldegeable and his edits are usually well sourced. But taken together, his many edits reveal a clear pattern of systematic bias (in my view). Of course User:JRHammond will never agree with this, but if users look at statements by both User:JRHammond and User:Wgfinley, and at the discussion page in question Talk:Six-Day War, they can judge for themselves. BTW it's the first time I ever comment on an AE case, so I apologise in advance if I have done something wrong, and will be happy to modify or remove my statement if instructed. - BorisG (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:AmatulicI came across the Six-Day War article during the course of administrative backlog patrolling, where I ran across an {{editprotected}} request. I spent a great deal of time reading the talk page history, found a consensus (not all in one place) for removal or replacement for two contentious sentences, and removed them. In the course of my investigation I discovered prior administrative actions regarding JRHammond including a previous ArbCom decision. At that point I decided to engage myself as a mediator, not taking sides in the debate, but establishing some ground rules for progress. My first action was to stop what I perceived as misuse of the editprotected template. I saw instances of debate being generated by JRHammond placing that template, which is the reverse of what should happen: first debate, come to consensus, and then place an editprotected template to have the consensus change implemented. JRHammond insisted that he had been doing this, in spite of evidence on the same talk page of an editprotected template followed by a huge debate. He added that a requested change should be implemented for requests to which nobody objects or responds in any way, and stated repeatedly that he would continue using the template as he had been doing. I stated, repeatedly, that for a highly contentious article as this, lack of response doesn't imply consensus, and unless I see positive support for a change (not lack of any response) the change won't be implemented no matter how non-controversial JRHammond sees it. He stated that this standard is "unreasonable".
I observe that MSGJ has not been engaged in the conflict and may have been unaware of my attempt to mediate. MSGJ is, of course, free to act any way he sees fit, and I would not object to his acceptance of an editprotected request to which I insist there be positive support. This, however, does not excuse the apparent canvassing of admins on JRHammond's part, and does not excuse JRHammond's insistence, after being told repeatedly how the editprotected tag should be used, that he would continue to use it disruptively. To his credit, I will say that JRHammond has not used the editrequested template since I began to mediate. While I felt we were making slow progress prior to JRHammond's ban, I do agree that his activity on the talk page qualifies as tendentious, with the result that other good-faith contributors to the article were being chased off, and that is unacceptable. I have mixed feelings about an indefinite ban, but now that it is in place, the ban should not be lifted without an agreement from JRHammond to specific behavioral changes. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
JRHammond appears confused by the instance of a single word ("then") which I have now struck from my comment for clarity, as that paragraph was not intended to continue a chronological tale. JRHammond is selective about the ordering of events. Talk:Six-Day War speaks for itself. I saw no need to summarize every exchange in my comment above. But it is obvious from the talk page that I became involved in August. I asked JRHammond to withdraw an editprotected template on 1 September at 5:31 UTC. He then went admin shopping to MSGJ at 12:34 regarding this exact same template, which MSGJ had disabled. This appeal should focus on the behavioral rationale behind JRHammond's ban, not pointless bickering about who said what and when. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I was going to ignore the latest diatribe, as it's hardly worth addressing, because the talk page speaks for itself. I find it curious that JRHammond chooses to attack every statement I make, in spite of the fact I have been impartial, even accepting one of JRHammond's edit requests, and exhorting others to weigh in regarding another so we could have consensus and move on.
Statement by Frederico1234I think the block was premature as a new admin had just arrived to the talk page and had begun mediating. I also think that User:Wgfinley, while acting in good faith in order to enable progress on the article, should have left this task to another admin due to his own previous involvement (the erroneous block, the outing ("JRHammond" is not his full name, so it was indeed outing)). --Frederico1234 (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Regarding the previous 31h block: JRHammond was reported for 3RR violation here. As seen in that edit, the alleged reverts are the following: JRHammond was notified of the block here. I believe the diffs makes it clear that a) JRHammond did not violate 3RR and b) the stated reason for the block was indeed 3RR violation. --Frederico1234 (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by mbz1
Statement by JiujitsuguyI’ve had my share of interactions with JRHammond and the impression I got was one of a guy who could never admit that he’s wrong. I found his rambling wall-to-wall texts, filled with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be, dizzying. He is unable to accept any form of criticism or sanction. By way of example, I got a bit aggressive with my editing on the Six-Day war and WgFinley put me back in line with a 48-hr article ban. I accepted my sanction and moved along. JRHammond received the same sanction shortly thereafter and instead of complying with the ban, defied it, drawing a stiffer sanction of a one-week block and a two-week article ban. Then he appealed with his usual wall-to wall text, denying any wrong-doing and blaming everyone else but himself. I would support shortening the article ban in exchange for a promise of good behavior but doubt that this will be forthcoming from this editor.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Statement by Ling.Nut
Comments by GatoclassPhilKnight, given that all the blocks and bans in question were handed out by WGFinley himself, whose own conduct in relation to JRH has been described or found to be inappropriate by more than one admin, escalating to a one-month ban would in my opinion only be rewarding the questionable conduct by WGF. Gatoclass (talk) 10:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:EnigmamanI have no history with the article in question, but did block JRHammond for edit-warring. For my troubles, I got a series of uncivil comments and borderline personal attacks from JRHammond. His bone of contention was that he technically did not violate 3RR. Whether that's true or not, he'd been very clearly edit warring on a sanctioned article for an extended period. As was noted by someone else, WP:TE could be describing JRHammond. His approach is a battleground approach, and simply won't play nice with any editors. He will not brook any disagreement with anything he says whatsoever. His presence on the Six Day War article is not helpful, and this can be seen from the article talk page. As I said above: Perhaps he can edit constructively elsewhere. Perhaps not. Either way, it would behoove us to find out. Enigmamsg 01:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC) My "bone of contention" was that I did not, as a demonstrable point of fact, confirmed to you by others, violate 3RR, which was the stated reason for that block. How you can say here "Whether that's true or not" when you knew perfectly well (again, User:Frederico1234 confirmed to you that I had not done so, and others made similar observations) demonstrates once again your lack of good faith. It's not playing very nice to block people on a false pretext, is it? I see no reason to "play nice" with editors who refuse to play nice with me. Are you going to ban yourself for not playing nice? JRHammond (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:Ruslik0I think the presence of JRHammond on the talk page of Six-day war has not been constructive so far. I do not think that statements like That's your argument? On the basis of its patent idiocy, your objection on the basis that a recommendation is not a recommendation is hereby dismissed or As your objection doesn't address that fundamental point, it is hereby dismissed. or Your lending of equal weight to Blum's totally baseless argument is unreasonable, and your objection on that basis must be dismissed. serve to achieve any consensus. I think JRHammond far too often dismisses other viewpoints as nonsense or ad hominen without any reason. I have not edited recently due to traveling, but when I returned I found that JRHammond flooded the talk page with editprotect requests hoping that some passing by admin would entertain at least some of them. I think that the indefinite topic ban should stand. Ruslik_Zero 11:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Topic ban violationA topic banned user cannot be engaged in any discussion on the topic. It is what topic ban is about. Yet User:JRHammond keeps pushing the editors on their talk pages using them as the talk page of the article. This kind of behavior proves yet another time that the ban should not be lifted, and that the user should get blocked for a day or two to cool down. --Mbz1 (talk) 12:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC) The current ban on me is explicitly a ban "from editing Six-Day War and its talk page". Since this ban was imposed, and while it is under appeal, I have not edited the Six Day War article or its talk page, and therefore, ipso facto, I have not done anything to violate the ban, as you are here trying to suggest. Additionally, there are no Wikipedia guidelines forbidden editors from engaging in discussion on users' talk pages for the purpose of improving articles. Now, if you think something I've stated elsewhere constitutes some kind of violation of Wikipedia policy, you are welcome to quote me on the offending statement and explain in what way it violates policy, or if you think there is any error in fact or logic in the arguments I've presented in a good faith effort to see improvements made to the article, you're welcome to point it out. JRHammond (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond
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The above is approaching 125kb, at least a third of which is from the petitioner, who I refer to WP:TLDR. Reading through this request, I am not inclined to overturn the ban at this point, and it doesn't appear that the consensus among admins is leaning that way either. If JRHammond wishes to refile a request to overturn the ban, he is instructed to limit his statement to no more than 1000 words and is also advised that uncontroversial participation in other areas of Wikipedia will be seen favorably.
If an admin feels that an expansion of the ban is warranted, they are free to do so even though I closed this request. NW (Talk) 03:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal #2 by User:JRHammond
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- JRHammond (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – JRHammond (talk) 04:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Indefinite ban from editing Six Day War article and participating on Six Day War talk page.[92]
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by User:JRHammond
(1) I was banned on the stated pretext of "tendentious editing". Amended: "Tendenitious Editing" is defined as "editing which is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole. It does not conform to the neutral point of view, and fails to do so at a level more general than an isolated comment that was badly thought out." User:Wgfinley does not even attempt to substantiate that my editing "is partisan, biased or skewed" or that it "does not conform to the neutral point of view" in his stated argument for my ban, and he would be hard-pressed to do so. Moreover, WP:TE states explicitly: "It is important to recognize that everybody has bias. Whether it is the systemic bias of demographics or a political opinion, few people will edit subjects in which they have no interest. Bias is not in and of itself a problem in editors, only in articles." WP:TE applies to editing of articles, not participation on Talk pages. I have not edited the article in question, and could not if I wanted to, as it is protected. I therefore further move that the ban be overturned on the basis of a spurious pretext.
(2) The imposing admin, User:Wgfinley has demonstrated a pattern of abuse of authority and prejudice towards me, including previously blocking me on a spurious pretext (successfully overturned by appeal, with the deciding admin stating: "I see nothing in JRHammond's comments at that talk page that warrant a block, let alone a one week block, and particularly a "cool down" block.")[93] and violating WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me I did not share with others myself.[94] Given this pattern of behavior on the part of the admin, I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of prejudicial treatment.
(3) This current ban follows this pattern of abuse of authority. For example, User:Wgfinley alleges: you will be disruptive if you consider it necessary you will venue shop by abusing the 'editprotected' template and believe proper usage of it is "unreasonable". This is a gross wilfull and deliberate mischaracterization of the facts, and demonstrably so. User:Amatulic had arrived on the page and outlined the proper use of the template. Contrary to expressing that I "believe proper usage of" the template "is 'unreasonable'", I responded to observe that I had followed that procedure exactly, and what I actually said was "I'm using the tag precisely as it was intended, as you yourself just outlined. And, as I said, I will continue to employ the tag as it was intended to be used." User:Amatulic replied, "JRHammond, I am gratified that you have agreed to follow the procedure I outlined..."[95] User:Amatulic went on to express his personal view that it was not enough that no objections were raised to the proposed edit for which I'd employed the template, arguing that "You won't find an administrator on Wikipedia who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus." I disagreed with that interpretation of its use and observed the fact that I had already come to an understanding with another admin, User:MSGJ, who had already, in fact, agreed to implement my requested edit if it remained unopposed after more time was allowed to give others opportunity to review it ("I've invited other editors to comment on your proposal and if there is no response in a couple of days I can make the edit.")[96] It was this situation that User:Wgfinley deliberately tries to mischaracterize as some kind of rebelliousness or "disruptive" behavior in an attempt to offer a pretext for this ban. Given User:Wgfinley's previous pattern of abuse of authority, along with such deliberate distortions of my comments as this, I reiterate that I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of demonstrably prejudicial treatment. JRHammond (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- User:PhilKnight stated: "JRHammond's talk page conduct has been disruptive, and he has yet to accept that he needs to modify his approach. Accordingly, I consider the indefinite article + talk page ban to be within admin discretion, although it's longer than I would've applied." (1) PhilKnight has not substantively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) PhilKnight has not substantiated his claim that my "talk page conduct has been disruptive" with even a single example.
- User:CIreland stated: "I concur with this assessment." (1) CIreland has not substantively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) CIreland has not substantiated the claim that my "talk page conduct has been disruptive" with even a single example.
- User:EdJohnston stated: "The reopened appeal by JRHammond suggests he has learned nothing at all from the last one. His mission on Wikipedia is (seemingly) to pound away until he can force his views into the Six-Day War article. I support the indefinite ban from article + talk page. You would think that JRH could manage to occasionally say *something* diplomatic that could lighten up the image that we have of him, but that never occurs. 'Harmonious' is not a word in his vocabulary." (1) EdJohnston has not substatively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) I reject this characterization of my work, which is a wholly unsubstantiated opinion that completely disregards the actual merit of the improvement I've tried to make to the article -- yes, which I have fought hard for, and rightfully so. As for the suggestion I should be "diplomatic" and "harmonious", that is very difficult to do when others refuse to substantively address my arguments on the basis of the facts and logic contained therein, preferring to make unsubstantiated and prejudicial statements against my character (such as EdJohnston remarks here), which falls within the definition of the fallacy of ad hominem, and when I am constantly harassed by User:Wgfinley and banned or blocked on spurious pretexts, such as those underlying this current ban, the facts of which none of the admins here have yet to address (see above).
- Look, if I've done something admins think was inappropriate, I'd be happy to acknowledge my error and apologize to anyone I may have offended. However, all of these judgments by these admins simply seem to assume the accuracy and legitimacy of User:Wgfinley's stated pretexts for this ban, which I have shown indisputably to be spurious, such as by the fact that Wgfinley felt it necessary to manufacture a deliberate falsehood in order to support his case for why I should be banned; and they offer nothing beyond what Wgfinley has already offered by way of substantiation for these characterizations. This is completely unreasonable. Is it too much to ask that admins judging my appeal be reasonable and actually substantively address the basis for my appeal? Is it too much to ask that if accusations against my character and behavior are to be offered as a basis to deny my appeal that they actually be substantiated with at least a single example? It is not. JRHammond (talk) 00:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
NOTICE!!! ALL INVOLVED EDITORS, PLEASE READ THIS!!!
Once again, all I'm asking for is a single example to be presented to substantiate the claims made against me of even a single instance where I did something in violation of Wikipedia policy that would warrant this ban. I can't very well say, "I'm sorry, I won't do that again" if I don't know what it is I've done that would warrant my appeal being denied. And it goes without saying that if nobody can present even a single example of an instance where I did something warranting this ban that my appeal should be approved. This is a perfectly reasonable request, and it is perfectly unreasonable for those judging this case to refuse it. JRHammond (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by WGFinley
Fellow admins, we have the wrong version.
Thank you.
--WGFinley (talk) 04:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Phil and CIreland's comments below, they were what I was thinking of when I worded the ban:[97]
- Tendentious editing has no place on Wikipedia and it is especially unwelcome on articles involving the Palestine-Israel conflict. I will be willing to consider lifting this ban if you state you can work with other editors and avoid tendentious editing. Until then you are banned from editing Six-Day War and its talk page.
WP:OFFER He's shown he can't drop things and move on in this case, it doesn't mean he can't do it elsewhere and it doesn't mean I wouldn't entertain lifting the ban if he demonstrated he could work with others elsewhere. After all this is an indefinite ban on this particular article and not the topic (although some kind of restriction there may be warranted) and not his account. I think since all of his editing has been restricted to this article up until a few days ago it has caused most of the problem. --WGFinley (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Wgfinley, the underlying assumption of your above statements that I should "drop things and move on" regarding WP:OFFER is that I should acknowledge I've committed the faults you accuse me of, and yet the main basis for your ban is with regard to my proposed edit for the Suez Crisis section of the article[98], in which I committed no such wrong as you claim, such as that I had expressed that I "believe proper usage of the template is 'unreasonable'" with regard to that proposed edit, which I've already demonstrated is a willful and deliberate falsehood. Given your history of harassing me and given the fact that you felt it necessary to manufacture such a lie in order to support this current ban, I will gladly take my chances with the appeal rather than being intimidated under threat of punishment into acknowledging I've said and/or done things that I never said or did. JRHammond (talk) 23:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Let's observe the pattern: (1) Blocking me on a wholly spurious pretext, with the admin granting my appeal stating "I see nothing in JRHammond's comments at that talk page that warrant a block, let alone a one week block, and particularly a "cool down" block."[99]; (2) Posting personal information about me I had never revealed myself in direct violation of WP:OUTING.[100]; (3) Banning me for 48 hours on the basis that I had violated 1RR[101] when the facts were that: (a) an edit I made[102] was reverted by an anonymous IP editor on the basis it was not well sourced,[103] (b) I did not revert back to my original edit, but rather (c) added a great many authoritative sources in order to satisfy the raised objection;[104] (d) and, moreover, my edit improved the article by replacing an unsourced and demonstrably false statement with a very well sourced statement of fact; (4) Blocking me for 7 days and banning me for two weeks on the basis that I had violated my spurious 48 hour ban[105] when the facts were that: (a) My above noted improvement to the article was reverted by the same anonymous IP editor with no legitimate explanation and without discussion,[106], so I (b) restored my edit to prevent the unsourced and false statement from remaining in the article,[107], (c) all of which is in keeping with the the spirit of Wikipedia guidelines, the whole purpose and intent of which is to create a conducive environment for the improvement of articles,[108], which demonstrates further that you were merely "Utilizing the rules in a manner contrary to their principles", demonstrating clear disregard for the purpose and intent of the rules you feign to uphold; (5) telling me I "shouldn't be" contributing to the Talk page after my ban and block had expired and threatening to ban me again for "carrying the edit war from the article on to the talk page",[109] a reference to my having proposed a solution to a problematic passage in the article that was reviewed, approved, and implemented by an administrator;[110], (6) this current ban based on demonstrably false and misleading claims, and (7) issuing further veiled threats of punitive action against me on the basis that my comment "Accredited, it is not clear to me, because you commented on tangential matters and not on any perceived merits/demerits on your part of my proposed edit, so kindly just answer my question. Yes or no?" was "combative".[111] I rest my case. Perhaps it's you who needs to be banned, Wgfinley. JRHammond (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
My word, WP:TL;DR. It's really not necessary to reply to each and every thought uttered that does not completely support you. Do you really think you are doing yourself any good individually calling out uninvolved admins and/or going to their talk pages to confront them there? Is there a single shred of any of the 5k written above that you haven't already said? WP:STICK! Saying I should be banned, you actually think THAT'S helpful? I should delete my entire section your conduct on both of these appeals has done nothing but affirmed my position. --WGFinley (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Anyone here can verify the facts are precisely as I've stated them. It's instructive that you are either unwilling or unable to substantively address my argument for appeal. JRHammond (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
@Gatoclass -- Telling someone they have bald tires and are about to go driving in the rain is not a threat, it's courteous warning. I courteously informed JRH that editing, in the same fashion, an article whose subject is the reason why he was banned on another article could resort in a topic ban. That's not a threat and it's already been suggested by others here. --WGFinley (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Let's get our facts straight, Guy. With regard to the incident in question, what Gatoclass actually said was: "Witness this latest exchange between JRH and WGFinley where WG again purports to find a "combative tone" possibly worthy of a new topic ban in this post. Nobody whose edits were subject to such a level of scrutiny and threats would be likely to maintain their equanimity for long." Which was a reference to your "courteous warning" that I could be further banned for such "combative" comments as this: "Accredited, it is not clear to me, because you commented on tangential matters and not on any perceived merits/demerits on your part of my proposed edit, so kindly just answer my question. Yes or no?" Which speaks for itself, and is instructive as to the spurious nature of this ban, and the spurious nature of the stated reasons for denying my appeal. JRHammond (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Mbz1
The prior request was just closed by NE. Do we really need to go over this again? I believe the ban should be extended to be broadly construed, and the request should be closed. It is just a time wasting. As with all indefinite bans the next appeal could be filed in a year.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- (1) The admin who closed it invited me to re-appeal ("If JRHammond wishes to refile a request to overturn the ban, he is instructed to limit his statement to no more than 1000 words..."). I did so according to the instruction given. (2) Your remark does not substantively address the argument for my appeal. JRHammond (talk) 06:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree my remark "does not substantively address the argument for your appeal" because I believe that filing appeal after appeal is an abuse of the right to appeal. There was a clear consensus (4 to 1) of uninvolved admins to leave your ban in place. That's why I see absolutely no ground for filing another appeal right away.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- That opinion of yours is something you will have to take up with the admin who invited me to re-appeal, Mbz1. I would observe that any reasonable decision one way or the other must substantively address my argument for lifting the ban; conversely, any decision that does not do so would be unreasonable. JRHammond (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Gatoclass will not be the sole person to close this appeal; it will be done by consensus among admins if we are to overturn the ban. Gatoclass' request is simply a request that other admins are not bound by, though they may choose to if they so wish. As for your larger concerns about Gatoclass' actions as an administrator, that is not for here, but for WP:RFC/U. NW (Talk) 11:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Statement by Gatoclass
I am currently working my way through JRHammond's contributions to both the Six-Day War article and the related talk page in order to try and make a judgement about this. I'd appreciate it if this appeal was not closed until I have had a chance to complete my review. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is that true you are "currently working my way through JRHammond's contributions to both the Six-Day War article and the related talk page in order to try and make a judgement about this"? One could have thought that you've already done this before you've made this comment in the uninvolved administrators section BTW.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Response to Cptnono
OT thread relating to personal attacks allegedly made during this appeal. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I consider Cptnono's remarks regarding my competence as an administrator above to be slanderous given their total lack of substantiation and therefore request their removal. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Gentlemen, please! If I were involved in a conversation like this, User:Wgfinley would ban me for Tendentious Editing! ;) User:Gatoclass, I for one am appreciative that you are actually willing to take the time to examine the issue. Whatever judgment you come to, thanks for actually taking the time to do so. JRHammond (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2010 (UTC) This section is supposed to be a Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:JRHammond. I am not sure if these esteemed admins here consider themselves uninvolved editors. But it is certainly not about the appeal by User:JRHammond. I suggest this personal exchange needs to be moved elsewhere, while any relevant comments by involved editors (admins or not) need to be in the section above. I am not comfortable adding a comment in a wrong place, but if it is continued like this, we will end up with the same mess as was just closed. - BorisG (talk) 14:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC) |
- Response to PhilKnight
Phil, as far as I can tell, JRH has only been editing since July and only made a handful of edits to mainspace - no more than about thirty I think. I agree his talk page behaviour has been less than exemplary at times, but given his inexperience I am concerned at the somewhat draconian nature of this remedy. I am also concerned at the fact that he has been pursued by one admin in particular who has slapped a series of blocks and bans on him often for quite trivial and at times patently imaginary offences, and who still appears bent on dogging his footsteps in a manner that looks very much to me like harassment. Witness this latest exchange between JRH and WGFinley where WG again purports to find a "combative tone" possibly worthy of a new topic ban in this post. Nobody whose edits were subject to such a level of scrutiny and threats would be likely to maintain their equanimity for long.
JRH obviously has a lot to learn in regards to acceptable conduct but everyone has a learning curve, there are many users on the I-P pages who have edited far more tendentiously and for much longer periods and escaped any sanction whatever, and JRH at least appears to be intelligent, erudite and reasonably well informed. That doesn't necessarily mean he will become a productive editor but it does indicate that he has the potential to make a worthwhile contribution. And I don't want to see a potentially useful editor unfairly discouraged. Gatoclass (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, I have a suggestion. As you can see, JRH is adamant that he has done nothing wrong, contrary to your comment above. It appears that you are sympathetic to him. If you are, then perhaps you are best placed to explain to JRH (here or on his talk page or elsewhere) what the problem is, and more importantly, convince him to change his approach. If he does, then we will all welcome him. But if he persists, then the article in question is best left without it. It has enough problems without him. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Ling.Nut
- JR has occasionally worked cooperatively, especially in the early days of our work on the article's WP:LEDE. He bears a particular POV, and is amazingly tireless and unyielding in his defense of it. It is the "tireless and unyielding" bit that grates on people. It is indeed unproductive, because it does indeed wear people down.
- There is simply a fundamental disconnect going on here. There is a fundamental disconnect between the way that JR views this entire situation, including the proceedings in this forum, and the way neutral editors view it. [Here I must also note that there are several editors in this forum and on the article's talk page who bear an NPOV that is categorically opposed to JR's; I trust that uninvolved admins will make an effort to discover who those editors are, and discount their views accordingly]. JR seems to want to marshal arguments any time anyone voices an opinion different than his, supporting his arguments with facts, rather than interacting in order to investigate perceptions of other editors involved (which are sometimes valid). JR seems to live in a world where arguing in the formal sense (fact vs. fact) is the only approach to any problem. He operates in an environment in which there are winners and losers (including most especially, winning ideas and losing ideas).
- He also is unable to let things rest and breathe a while, as per m:eventualism.
- JR's tirelessness can occasionally be fruitful. Since he researches issues thoroughly (albeit in a biased manner), he often brings facts to the table that very definitely need to be included in the article. In fact, he is unquestionably a valuable contributor in that restricted sense. However, the problem is that he does not stop at bringing facts to the table; he tirelessly argues to prove to everyone that his facts always and everywhere supersede all others.
- I was not aware (before now) that an indefinite ban is not the same as an infinite ban. It can be lifted, upon signs of altered behavior. I hope JR will take note of that fact.
- Ling.Nut, (1) You are not substantively addressing the basis for my appeal, and you offer nothing by way of substantiation, beyond your own personal opinions, that would support the basis for this ban. (2) Said opinions of yours depend primarily upon the assumption that I am biased, yet you offer not a single example to substantiate that claim. Moreover, as WP:TE states, everyone has bias and bias is not a problem in editors, but in articles, and I maintain that all of my edits and proposed edits are perfectly in compliance with WP:NPOV (in fact, many corrected statements that violated NPOV). I challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate otherwise. (3) Facts matter. Logic is applicable. Arguing vigorously for my positions by presenting well researched and factual information (as you yourself attest to) and sound logic is not something which warrants a ban. Neither is the expectation I have that other editors similarly support their positions by presenting factually and logically sound arguments, rather than resorting to ad hominem or other logical fallacies, unreasonable. (4) Your assumption that my behavior is in need of alteration is based solely upon the above unsubstantiated opinions and logical fallacies. If you want to convince me I've behaved inappropriately, you need to give me something to go on. You've given me nothing, and I stand by all my edits and all my contributions to the Talk page. Facts matter. Logic applies. I expect you and everyone else to be reasonable with me, and that is a reasonable expectation that is constantly disappointed,through no fault of my own. JRHammond (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I'm (all at the same time) a bit burned out on this discussion (and) very busy in real life so shouldn't even be here (and) putting up with on-wiki trouble over other articles and with other editors. My only observation about your facts (in the article, not in this forum) is that they are occasionally refuted by other reliable sources, yet you always and everywhere see that your sources supersede others. I am extremely hesitant to present diffs showing that edit from a POV, because I want to leave you a figleaf in order that you may continue editing (I hope), and leave our editing relationship a figleaf so that we may continue editing together... Moreover, I actually do not care about POV, as you accurately cite TE; almost every editor on that page is from either the pro-Israel or the pro-Arab camp. I care about how POV affects the editing process. I am looking forward to working with you again. I do not want to poison our working relationship. I know you will not believe this, but I am actually trying to help you (I know that may sincerely seem difficult to swallow – I really do). You suggest I have not pointed out the behaviors that are unacceptable; gosh, I thought I had done that repeatedly. I would be very happy to discuss anything and everything in other forums (after a cooling-down period). Right now, you are sitting at AE, and many folks want to ban you from the article. Rather than continuously arguing that those folks are wrong, why don't you ask them (in a non-challenging way and on other forums) how they believe you can modify your behavior to be more in line with community expectations? Work with the community rather than fighting against it. I am so sorry, I know that everything I say probably seems invalid to you because I am not putting up a counterpoint for each of your points.I am not being sarcastic or condescending or any negative thing at all when I say I am sorry; I am in fact actually and genuinely sorry. • Ling.Nut 05:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- JRHammond, please re-read Ling.Nuts original statement. Receiving criticism is always hard, but this criticism is fair and made in good faith. --Frederico1234 (talk) 05:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ling.Nut, (1) You are not substantively addressing the basis for my appeal, and you offer nothing by way of substantiation, beyond your own personal opinions, that would support the basis for this ban. (2) Said opinions of yours depend primarily upon the assumption that I am biased, yet you offer not a single example to substantiate that claim. Moreover, as WP:TE states, everyone has bias and bias is not a problem in editors, but in articles, and I maintain that all of my edits and proposed edits are perfectly in compliance with WP:NPOV (in fact, many corrected statements that violated NPOV). I challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate otherwise. (3) Facts matter. Logic is applicable. Arguing vigorously for my positions by presenting well researched and factual information (as you yourself attest to) and sound logic is not something which warrants a ban. Neither is the expectation I have that other editors similarly support their positions by presenting factually and logically sound arguments, rather than resorting to ad hominem or other logical fallacies, unreasonable. (4) Your assumption that my behavior is in need of alteration is based solely upon the above unsubstantiated opinions and logical fallacies. If you want to convince me I've behaved inappropriately, you need to give me something to go on. You've given me nothing, and I stand by all my edits and all my contributions to the Talk page. Facts matter. Logic applies. I expect you and everyone else to be reasonable with me, and that is a reasonable expectation that is constantly disappointed,through no fault of my own. JRHammond (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- As are my replies. All I've requested is that if my appeal is to be denied that the basis for my appeal be substantively addressed and I be given a reason for this ban (one not based on deliberate falsehoods), substantiated with even just a single example of behavior on my part that violated Wikipedia policy as would warrant it! An short of that, my appeal should be granted. This is certainly not an unreasonable request! JRHammond (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ling.Nut, you continue to make prejudicial statements against me (e.g. "you always and everywhere see that your sources supersede others") that you refuse to substantiate with even a single example. It hardly serves to make such remarks and then refuse to substantiate them on the basis that you "do not want to poison our working relationship", because doing so does just that. As for your suggestion that I ask in a non-challenging way how those sitting in judgment of me believe I can modify my behavior to be more in line with community expectations, first of all, this assumes I have done something wrong, which is prejudicial inasmuch as determining whether or not that is the case is what this appeal is about (and I have already demonstrated that the basis for this appeal is spurious, demonstrated by the demonstrable fact that Wgfinley felt it necessary to manufacture deliberate falsehoods to support the ban), and, secondly, I have repeatedly done just that, only to have that reasonable request either so far ignored or declined! [112][113][114][115][116] Seriously, is it too much to ask that if I am to be banned that a reason be given for that ban that is actually substantiated with a specific example of something I've posted that violated Wikipedia policy? I'm not the one being unreasonable here, Ling.Nut. JRHammond (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by BorisG
I agree with everything Ling.Nut said. To put it in my own words, the problems with JRH's editing are:
- Style (wall-to-wall text, repeating the same arguments over and over again).
- Presenting his own opinion as 'truth'.
- Attempts to use editprotect template without consensus.
- Above all, this is a single-purpose account.
I will not be giving any examples, because anyone can see it (and form their own opinion which may be different from mine) just by browsing Six-day war talk page for 5 minutes. I will not express any opinions regarding the ban, because I do not have enough relevant experience.
- (1) I agree I do often have to repeat myself, because the fact is that others, yourself included, refuse to substantively address my arguments (e.g. Suez Crisis proposed edit). This is not an offense anyhow. (2) I have never presented my own opinion as fact; I do however, fully support my opinions with facts. This is not an offense anyhow. (3) As for the editprotect template, I employed it for precisely 2 edits, and I did so properly: (a) For the first, I'll let the words of the admin who accepted my request speak for themselves: "I see no issue removing contentious material when the parties concerned agree that the material should eventually be replaced with something more neutral." (b) For the second, I outlined my proposal, clearly stated my intent to employ the template, and called on editors to state any objections if they had any. After several days, no objections were raised, so I did so, in full compliance with the template instructions. (4) Yes. It was numerous problems I saw with the Six Day War article that compelled me to join the process. I don't have time for other articles, so I stick mostly with this one. I'm not aware of any Wikipedia policy that says you must edit multiple articles or none at all. JRHammond (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Now, I would add two further observations: (1) None of your comments address the basis for my appeal. (2) If you express no opinion on the ban, then it's inappropriate to comment here with prejudicial remarks against me. JRHammond (talk) 13:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "The sentence is sourced to a RS. Unless it is shown that this is not what the source says, it can stay. I don't have the source to check."[117] -- BorisG
- "More generally, assessment of what is right and what is wrong in a RS is OR. We need to see what the source says and how it explains it."[118] -- BorisG
- "The statement is based on a reliable source. If the reliable source does say this, then it belogs to the article."[119] -- BorisG
- BorisG, my above comment was specifically in reference to our discussions over my proposed edit here:[120]. You repeatedly said that so long as the source said what the article says it says, the text should remain. That did not convince me, because it is a logical fallacy. As I repeatedly observed in response, the question is whether the article accurately characterizes the UNEF mandate, which it demonstrably does not; it demonstrably violates WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, which is the underlying issue I repeatedly tried to get you to address, to no avail. The full explanation for "Tendentious Editing":
- If your arguments are rejected, bring better arguments, don’t simply repeat the same ones. And most importantly, examine your argument carefully, in light of what others have said. It is true that people will only be convinced if they want to be, regardless of how good your argument may be, but that is not grounds for believing that your argument must be true. You must be willing to concede you may have been wrong. Take a good, long hard look at your argument from as detached and objective a point of view as you can possibly muster, and see if there really is a problem with it. If there isn't, it's best to leave the situation alone: they're not going to want to see it and you cannot force them to. If there is a problem, however, then you should revise the argument, your case, or both.[121]
- Your unwillingness to acknowledge your logical fallacy when I repeatedly pointed it out to you, your continual repeating of that logical fallacy despite my having pointed it out as such, and your refusal to actually address my own argument on any point of fact or logic clearly demonstrates that it was you and not I are guilty of "Tendentious Editing". Hypocrite. JRHammond (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:JRHammond
Since it was pointed out in the last appeal that I am "uninvolved" except in an administrative role, I guess I'll post a comment here. Anyone who feels differently (including the petitioner) may move my comments. I'll make no behavioral judgments here, just some relevant observations.
Observation 1: JRHammond refers to Wikipedia:Tendentious editing as if it were a hard definition. WP:TE is an essay, not an official policy or guideline. As an essay it needn't (and doesn't) comprehensively describe every possible way an editor can be tendentious. (That essay could use some improvement. It has had a few minor fixes, but like most essays, it was largely written by one person.) Other highly experienced editors and administrators have described JRHammond's talk page behavior as tendentious. They've seen it before, and they saw it not only on Talk:Six-Day War but possibly also in these two appeals. Regardless of the merits of the accusation of tendentiousness, that is what was seen.
Observation 2: Based on the comments of two other editors who have become fatigued by arguing at length with JRHammond on Talk:Six-Day War,[122][123] one example of tendentiousness not described in WP:TE is to wear out your opponents to the point where they are no longer willing to participate. I am not saying that JRHammond's intent was to drive off opposition, but that was an outcome. And that outcome was apparently one reason leading to a ban.[124]
Observation 3: JRHammond is a fairly new and inexperienced editor whose first contribution was in February this year, and who has made about 500 edits, the bulk of which (about 80%) are on talk pages. That may be reasonable given the contentious nature of the topic he chooses to get involved in, but I'll leave it to others to decide. In any case, I believe it is common for new editors who start out with a flurry of activity to violate the community behavior norms, and earn a ban or a block. I personally see no dishonor in that. It's part of the learning process of becoming a Wikipedian. JRHammond didn't start out being fully aware of things like Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, Wikipedia:Wikilawyering, or other relevant documents that he now knows about. Different people approach Wikipedia in different ways. Many of us have found it necessary to modify our natural inclinations when participating here. For example, it isn't natural for me to swallow my pride, refrain from lashing out at a personal attack, or refrain from defending myself against every single accusation. But, I observe from personal experience that practicing those skills does make life on Wikipedia more pleasant in the long run.
Observation 4: Taking a larger view, this ban seems pretty minor. It's a ban from one article and one talk page. It isn't a topic ban. It isn't a block. It isn't even forever — "indefinite" means "without a specified limit", not "infinite". Given that there are 238 other articles in Category:Arab-Israeli conflict, which seems to be JRHammond's area of interest, I don't see this ban as hindering JRHammond's participation here. A topic ban most certainly would. But a single-article ban is no big deal, considering the millions of articles on Wikipedia that need improvement.
Observation 5: Finally, I note that in the U.S. court system, one can plead guilty, not guilty, or no contest. Pleading "no contest" isn't an admission of guilt. I suggest that JRHammond recognize this ban for the minor thing that it is, accept WGFinley's offer, plead no contest, and move on. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Pleading "no contest" would mean tacit acknowledgment that WGFinley's stated pretext for this ban was legitimate. It is not, as the fact that he felt it necessary to lie in order to fabricate a basis for it clearly demonstrates. As for the characterizations here that this ban is warranted, please point to whatever comment(s) I made on the Talk page that would demonstrate that this is so. JRHammond (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I gather the earlier discussion was closed as it was TL;DR, so I'll try to keep this short. JRHammond's talk page conduct has been disruptive, and he has yet to accept that he needs to modify his approach. Accordingly, I consider the indefinite article + talk page ban to be within admin discretion, although it's longer than I would've applied. PhilKnight (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I concur with this assessment. I would add that JRHammond's best approach to getting the sanction lifted would be to spend some time editing harmoniously outside the Arab-Israel conflict topic area. Indefinite ought not necessarily to imply infinite. CIreland (talk) 15:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The reopened appeal by JRHammond suggests he has learned nothing at all from the last one. His mission on Wikipedia is (seemingly) to pound away until he can force his views into the Six-Day War article. I support the indefinite ban from article + talk page. You would think that JRH could manage to occasionally say *something* diplomatic that could lighten up the image that we have of him, but that never occurs. 'Harmonious' is not a word in his vocabulary. EdJohnston (talk) 17:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Mir Harven
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Mir Harven
- User requesting enforcement
- No such user (talk) 11:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Mir Harven (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Final Decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [125] "I don't know what kind of therapy would suit you (if any), but your hysteric idiocies are all too easy refutable. ". If I recall correctly, was warned for this, and withdrew it. But there's more to follow...
- [126] Talk:Croatian language: personal attack to kwami at the start of TLDR. Continued by a unpublished letter to an editor (in Croatian) violating BLP of Snježana Kordić, Croatian linguist of different opinion than Mir's
- [127] Talk:Croatian language
- [128] Talk:Croatian language: "My way or no way" attitude
- [129] Croatian language: Summary revert to a fairly old version, throwing away all grammar and style changes in between
- [130] Croatian language: Summary revert
- [131] Croatian language: Today's summary revert
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [132] Warning by Knepflerle (talk · contribs)
- [133] Warning by kwamikagami (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on Talk:Croatian language
- [134] Warning by kwamikagami (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on Talk:Croatian language
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Left to admins' discretion
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- The atmosphere surrounding the articles Croatian language, Serbo-Croatian language and to a lesser extent, Serbo-Croatian grammar and Serbian language is poisonous. There is a number Croatian nationalist editors, many of them SPIs, see e.g. Rokonja (talk · contribs), 78.0.154.106 (talk · contribs), 78.3.120.82 (talk · contribs) [135] which opposes any linking of Croatian with Serbo-Croatian in any shape or form, asserting that "Serbo-Croatian has never existed", summarily reverting to a version not mentioning the Serbo-Croatian as the language group, and putting walls on text on the talk page. According to Talk:Serbo-Croatian_grammar#Wikipedia_article_Serbo-Croatian_grammar_makes_headlines_in_Croatia, the campaign for "freedom of Croatian language against hegemonism" is moving even outside of Wikipedia, so this entire affair needs less fuel and more water. We don't want another ARBMAC arbcom, do we?
- Granted, there was less than stellar behavior on the opposite side, myself included. Still, it is difficult to lead a thoughtful discussion and reach a consensus against an army of single-purpose accounts, and editors like Mir Harven and Croq (talk · contribs), who mostly summarily revert and repeat the same arguments on the talk page over and over. No such user (talk) 11:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [136]
Discussion concerning Mir Harven
Statement by Mir Harven
Comments by others about the request concerning Mir Harven
This is beyond ridiculous. I think part of the reason so much revolves around slander is that no RS's are presented on Mir's side for substantive debate. I have no doubt that he actually believes his POV, but I've seen no evidence that it is in any way credible, and he has been debunked numerous times. (There are elements of truth in his arguments, such as Yugoslav standard Serbo-Croatian never being fully unified as a standard language, but such points are already covered in the articles and are largely peripheral to the edits he is pushing.) Since he cannot win through evidence, he resorts to edit warring. He's been gone a while, but is now back, and his only recent purpose here appears to be edit warring to redact the Croatian language article.
I'd think WP:ARBMAC should be applicable.
His accusations continue even when not engaging any of us here, as on WP-hr.[137] (Google translate will give you the gist; note that Kubura, a WP-hr admin, continues the rant, so this is not a single editor.) — kwami (talk) 11:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Mir Harven
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I don't see a lot of edit warring going on in the article in question, his reversions seem to have been dealt with by others and the diffs on prior behavior are a few months old. I have put the WP:GS warning on the talk page and added a section to advise the editors there the article is subject to sanctions. I don't think any further action is needed at this point, perhaps a 1RR parole if things get bad with edit warring but it doesn't seem to be that way right now. --WGFinley (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Please either use the template or submit all the information required in the template for your filing. You are free to copy material from here into the proper section of the resubmission. DO NOT make any further changes to this section. Thanks. --WGFinley (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Submitted improperly, please follow the instructions at the top of the page. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Mass killings under Communist regimes Is under a 1RR restriction "per Digwuren", with a requirement that reverts be discussed on the talk page. User:Petri Krohn is well aware of Digwuren (having been under its restrictions specifically, and has made reverts as [138] without posting the revert on the article talk page (copying a "bold" edit by Fifelfoo of deleting more than half the entire article, and which had been reverted) and then making a separate second clear revert at [139], The page is clearly marked on the talk page about the 1RR restriction, and has a huge red warning about the 1RR on the edit page. As Petri knows about Digwuren, I doubt that any excuse can be made. The 1RR is set as a bright line, not even an entitlement, and Petri has crossed it in spades. Thanks. The template is simply incomprehnsible, alas, for making this into the official format. Collect (talk) 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by User:Petri KrohnThere has been a clear argument made in the the long discussion at the talk page that the deleted content is off topic. Its inclusion is the main reason why the page is marked with multiple tags. As per WP:BOLD I suggested a new status quo where the tags could be removed. I also introduced a new lede to the article. The article was then edited by users Paul Siebert (talk · contribs) and Fifelfoo (talk · contribs). My edits and those of Raul Siebert Fifelfoo were then reverted by User:Collect, who reverted the article to a version by Marknutley, who again had reverted the article earlier today. The two reverts to the article were to totally unrelated sections of the article. When I made the edit I was fully aware of the exitance of the 1 revert limitation and carefully limited my edits not to break it – although I would not brake 1rr even if it was not mandatory. I now checked the article behind the WP:3RR and find that it now states "on a single page within a 24-hour period". This is new to me – the last time I remember reading the page was in May 2007 when I intentionally led user Digwuren into breaking 3RR. I now see that my edit have been against the letter of the new 3RR policy and have reverted myself (only to be reverted 2 minutes later with my changes restored.) I am now going through the edit history to see when the "single page" definition was added. Unlike Collect and Marknutley I have never edited the article before during its probation, (most likely never – but have not checked full history.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC) |
Petri Krohn
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Petri Krohn
- User requesting enforcement
- mark nutley (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Collect (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Petri Krohn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Digwuren
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [151] Reverts the reinsertion of a massive removal of content article is on a 1r restriction. He also did not go to talk to discuss these reverts or changes
- [152] Reverts his lede back in
- ...
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [153] Warning by Marknutley (talk · contribs)
- [154] Notice from Collect
- ...
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- No idea what the usual actions are in this case, but his refusal to self revert after being informed of the restrictions on the article is problematic mark nutley (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Per notice at top of page involved - all pertinent Digwuren sanctions Collect (talk) 17
- 40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- <Your text>
The page is clearly marked as being under 1RR, and that the Digwuren sanctions apply. It states that revers are to be posted on the talk page, which was done in neither case. The notice is prominent on the edit page, talk page, etc, hence is (per the notice) sufficient warning in the first place. Petri refused to revert at [155] which makes the far later "self revert" not applicable as an excuse (which was then reverted <g> by TFD at the two minute mark!) Petri is, moreover, expected to be especially mindful of all Digwuren sanctions. Collect (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
See also [156] inter alia and is well familiar with multiple bans. Collect (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Actual article talk page, edit page and so on as well as -[158] and [159] which ought to be sufficient. [160] Notification
Discussion concerning Petri Krohn
Statement by Petri Krohn
Neither of my two edits to the article today constitute edit warring as in Wikipedia:Edit warring. My first edit to the article, in accordance of WP:BRD, was a giant leap forward for the article, as it removed the heavy POV-tagging from the article, that had hampered it for wiki-years. My second edit only restored minor chances and improvements that were lost in User:Collect's summary revert of the article.
There has been a clear argument made in the the long discussion at the talk page that the deleted content is off topic. Its inclusion is the main reason why the page is marked with multiple tags. As per WP:BOLD I suggested a new status quo where the tags could be removed. I also introduced a new lede to the article. The article was then edited by users Paul Siebert (talk · contribs) and Fifelfoo (talk · contribs). My edits and those of Raul Siebert Fifelfoo were then reverted by User:Collect, who reverted the article to a version by Marknutley, who again had reverted the article earlier today.
The two "reverts" included in my edit were to totally unrelated sections of the article. When I made the edit I was fully aware of the existence of the 1 revert limitation and carefully limited my edits not to break it – although I would not brake 1rr even if it was not mandatory. I now checked the article behind the WP:3RR and find that it now states "on a single page within a 24-hour period". This is new to me – the last time I remember reading the page was in May 2007 when I intentionally led user Digwuren into breaking 3RR. I now see that my edit have been against the letter of the new 3RR policy and have reverted myself (only to be reverted 2 minutes later with my changes restored.) I am now going through the edit history to see when the "single page" definition was added.
Unlike Collect and Marknutley I have never edited the article before during its probation, (most likely never – but have not checked full history.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2010
- As there still seems to be discussion on this issue I will make an additional comment. I do follow a very strict 1RR rule, I would not revert the same action of another editor more that once in a day, in a week or most likely – ever. I believe most people who follow a 1RR would interpret it the same way. Also I would at all cost avoid a blanket revert to earlier versions, like the ones done today by Collect and Marknutley. My two edits partially reverted unrelated actions in separate sections of the article and were within this policy. I was genuinely not aware of the precise 3RR definition: one article – not one action or section. This really slows down any improvement as well as conflict down to a snails pace. If that is needed, so be it.
- I also have to protest against EdJohnston's belittling comment below, removing the tags from the article would be a major achievement, as agreed by all editors involved. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Collect and Marknutley?
I am surprised to see that users Collect (talk · contribs) and Marknutley (talk · contribs) have not been given a formal DIGWUREN notice as logged here. It is clear that their edits today have been edit warring and part of a long pattern of similar behavior. Also note, that Marknutley has volunteered to leave the Climate change topic area as a result of the on-going ArbCom case, so his future participation here is more then likely. Also I find their actions awkwardly teamish, as their common interests seem to extend from the Category:Koch family to climate change to commies. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC), expanded 21:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? I made a single and proper revert. Period. Nor have I been "edit warring" on Climate Change, Communist killings, nor any other area, nor do I even have any real overlap with Ptetri other than the simple fact I reported his 2RR on an article. Nor have I made any practice of editing anything remotely connected with Digwuren as far as ArbCom is concerned. This bit (complaint) made without even giving me the courtesy of any notification, and out-of-process to boot, ill serves WP:AE, and looks very much like a tit for tat response at best. Collect (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Accusations of "tag teaming" do not belong here. My overlaps with you or with Nutley are de minimis, and often not in agreement. To accuse a person of "tag teaming" is a violation of WP:NPA at best. I note your prior bans. You did not get any real punishment today, but it looks like you are anxious to push the envelope - sigh. Even if you do view it all as "kindergarten justice" (your words). Collect (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Collect (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- In any action, where you seek sanctions, you must assume that all parties are likely, if not equally likely to be sanctioned. Even in cases where one party is guilty, Wikipedia will only offer its version of kindergarten justice. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- They seem well aware of it and unable to deny it since they asked for it against you. The warning is just so admins can keep track. If you want to submit diffs for some action to be taken against them you can but I would caution you, you admittedly [161] come to this with unclean hands so you may want to just drop it. I see the article is now protected due to the edit warring of various parties. --WGFinley (talk) 21:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Petri Krohn
Mass killings under Communist regimes Is under a 1RR restriction "per Digwuren", with a requirement that reverts be discussed on the talk page.
User:Petri Krohn is well aware of Digwuren (having been under its restrictions specifically, and has made reverts as [162] without posting the revert on the article talk page (copying a "bold" edit by Fifelfoo of deleting more than half the entire article, and which had been reverted) and then making a separate second clear revert at [163], The page is clearly marked on the talk page about the 1RR restriction, and has a huge red warning about the 1RR on the edit page. As Petri knows about Digwuren, I doubt that any excuse can be made. The 1RR is set as a bright line, not even an entitlement, and Petri has crossed it in spades. Thanks. The template is simply incomprehnsible, alas, for making this into the official format. Collect (talk) 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- See Template:Digwuren enforcement: ""any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process" (my emphasis). Collect failed to warn the editor and one violation of 1RR cannot be seen as "repeatedly". The correct forum is the edit-warring noticeboard. TFD (talk) 15:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)The warning is on the article pages. Also note repeated warnings on the person's ut page. The Digwuren warning has been given to Petri per the initial sanctions. And note that the article page specifies that the revert is to be noted on the article talk page. So much for Wikilawyering here about Petri not having any idea about Digwuren <g>. Collect (talk) 15:45, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Which is where it started, and it was declined there as it was moved here. Dougweller (talk) 15:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Collect, could you please assume good faith and do not accuse other editors of "wikilawyering". I have inadvertently broken 1RR and I believe you have as well. Usually in these cases the editor is asked to self-revert before any sanctions are taken. Petri Krohn has self-reverted.[164] TFD (talk) 15:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Paul Siebert (taken from [165] mutatis mutandi)
- The first revert Petri Krohn made there [166]. Strictly speaking, it was not a single revert, but two unrelated edits: firstly, he removed the text re-inserted earlier, and, secondly, he modified the lede. The latter edit cannot be considered as a revert, because Petri Krohn didn't edit the article before.
- After that Fifelfoo and I made our edits, which were totally unrelated to the Petri Krohn's edits [167].
- Then Collect made a wholesale revert, thereby reverting Petri Krohn's, Fifelfoo and my edits [168]. According to his edit summary, his only objection was removal of large text from the article. It is clear from this edit summary that Collect didn't notice change in the lede and the edits made by me and Fifelfoo.
- Petri Krohn restored my and Fifelfoo's edits, as well as his changes to the lede which were reverted by Collect without any edit summary [169]. Note, he didn't redo a removal of the text Collect noted in his edit summary. Consequently, based on the Collect's edit summary I conclude Petri Krohn restored only the text removed by Collect accidentally.
- Mark Nutley falsely accuses Petri Krohn in violation of 1RR [170]:
"* 1st revert: [171] first revert was to remove content which had been removed and then restored [172]
* 2nd revert: [173] reverts back in content he had added which was reverted out." - As a result of Mark Nutley's attack Petri Krohn self-reverts [174].
- Since Mark Nutley is known to use a 1RR as a pretext for unjustified attacks of good faith editors, in my opinion, he should be admonished about intrinsic flaw of such a behaviour.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- (ec to TFD above)You sought to dismiss this all, despite the clear material on the article pages, due to me "not notifying" Petri. I daresay that this is a splendid example of what you ought to decry. The person was, indeed, asked to self-revert -- and specifically refused. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Petri_Krohn&diff=383461541&oldid=383460124[ shows the refusal. Collect (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If I were you, Collect I apologised first for doing wholesale revert of several unrelated edits, which was supplemented with poorly written edit summary. It is your revert [175] which caused all this turmoil which distracts reasonable editors form their work.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? I went back to a stable version of an article - rather than just looking at more than half of it being deleted. Indeed, I would suggest that deletion of more than half an article is a wholesale deletion. As for any assertion below that any person missed the prominent notice at the top of the article talk page which specifies Digwuren, that is hard to fathom indeed. Collect (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- The fact that someone made a deletion of a large piece of the text does not allow you to revert other edits de facto without any edit summary. I agree, it is always easier to return to a stable version rather to meticulously restore the text you want, leaving other editing intact. However, if you are not ready for meticulous work, don't edit Wikipedia. Interestingly, Petri Krohn fixed your own mistake (accidental removal of my edits without any edit summary), and, as a result, you reported him. Moreover, even after I pointed out at your mistake (which, I believe, was just a mistake) you still refuse to apologise and withdraw your accusations. Unbelievable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Re: " As for any assertion below that any person missed the prominent notice at the top of the article" The ref to this notice is totally irrelevant, because there were no second revert: Petri Krohn just fixed the mistake you made (removal of subsequent edits, which appeared to be reverted accidentally).--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? I went back to a stable version of an article - rather than just looking at more than half of it being deleted. Indeed, I would suggest that deletion of more than half an article is a wholesale deletion. As for any assertion below that any person missed the prominent notice at the top of the article talk page which specifies Digwuren, that is hard to fathom indeed. Collect (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If I were you, Collect I apologised first for doing wholesale revert of several unrelated edits, which was supplemented with poorly written edit summary. It is your revert [175] which caused all this turmoil which distracts reasonable editors form their work.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- The fact is that I have no idea of WP:DIGWUREN. I have not taken part in any of the WP:DIGWUREN deliberations nor have I even read the related pages. (I have however read much of the WP:EEML evidence and find it most revealing.) I have followed a voluntary topic ban on the disputes in the EE topic, that is in anything Digwuren of his followers would be interested in – starting from the day in July 2007 when my request at WP:AN to have a community ban on user Digwuren (talk · contribs) was first rejected. The so called Digwuren warning was only introduced long after the case, I have never seen one. I do however take this AE as a serious warning. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:22, 7 September 2010
Result concerning Petri Krohn
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
While it is true Petri was an original party to Digwuren the case was amended with discretionary sanction powers during his ban. It's conceivable he was not aware of them and I did not see any previous warnings or a log of the warning. Therefore I have now warned him [176] and logged the warning [177] so it is now clear he has been notified. I see no further action needed in this case as he self-reverted. This article may need a watchful eye for edit warring. --WGFinley (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- This report was filed (I think) as a Digwuren request because the article 1RR restriction was placed by NuclearWarfare under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN. Since a notice of the 1RR restriction is posted prominently on the article talk, in my opinion Petri Krohn has had plenty of notice. In fact, a giant red warning about the 1RR restriction appears when you hit the 'Edit' button on the article. Note that this particular 1RR is accompanied by an explicit requirement to take changes to the talk page: "All reverts should be discussed on the talk page" (See the talk page header). Nonetheless since Petri Krohn self-reverted I don't think any sanction is needed here. The editor's statement in his own defense is rather embarrassing; I hope he does not use that logic in the future. "My first edit to the article, in accordance of WP:BRD, was a giant leap forward for the article." I strongly recommend not using BRD on articles subject to a 1RR. The sky will not fall if you use the talk page first. EdJohnston (talk) 19:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, he self reverted, so we don't need to apply any sanctions. PhilKnight (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)