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*I'm not seeing anything actionable here. In particular, the alleged aspersions were not cast against any identified or identifiable editors. Everybody in the whole Poland/WWII topic area needs to seriously calm down or at some point we'll have to ban a whole lot of people. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 11:26, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
*I'm not seeing anything actionable here. In particular, the alleged aspersions were not cast against any identified or identifiable editors. Everybody in the whole Poland/WWII topic area needs to seriously calm down or at some point we'll have to ban a whole lot of people. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 11:26, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*Agree w/ Sandstein here, and as one that read that Haaretz article, it may out some past editors' names (I haven't checked to see if they were already outed), but it is far from an attack article but a fair look at a situation on WP related to this area. I do think FR needs to tone down the rhetoric - behavior is in the ballpark to the reasons why an editor like TheRamblingMan came under specific sanctions but not at a point of actionability yet. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:09, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
*Agree w/ Sandstein here, and as one that read that Haaretz article, it may out some past editors' names (I haven't checked to see if they were already outed), but it is far from an attack article but a fair look at a situation on WP related to this area. I do think FR needs to tone down the rhetoric - behavior is in the ballpark to the reasons why an editor like TheRamblingMan came under specific sanctions but not at a point of actionability yet. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:09, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
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* I'm unconvinced that there is anything sanctionable here, but as Masem says, FR needs to dial it back a lot here; there are only so many times that you can accuse un-named editors of anti-semitism without naming them (diff3), but then name other editors in a separate context (diff2) without eventually doing something that ''will'' get you sanctioned. Icewhiz, sadly, went too far with this; it would be unfortunate if it happened again. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:02, 5 October 2019
Paul Siebert
Paul Siebert is topic-banned from everything related to the Eastern Front (World War II) (i.e. the Germany vs. USSR aspect of WWII) for three months. Sandstein 19:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Request concerning Paul Siebert
Responses
Discussion concerning Paul Siebert@admins The end of the post contains a discussion of subjects related to my personal life, and I don't want them to be guillotined. I asked Sandstein, he told ~600 words is ok. Before July 2018, I believed MVBW was a tough but valuable opponent. After this (read my concluding remark and Response#9), MVBW is not welcome at my talk page, I am ignoring him, and I never comment on his contributions. I am going to continue ignoring him in future, AE, ANI or admin's pages are the only exception.
Comments:
Statement by (Jack90s15)
And I was not following them I was watching the page after they told me about the book. The other page I came across at the same time as they were editing it was a Coincidence Jack90s15 (talk) 18:38, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Statement by IcewhizThe trigger to this dispute seems to be MVBW removing 70% of the page - [10] saying an IP added it (the IP reverted another IP that removed it diff) - content that has been present on the article for over a decade. The article in question is on a book that transfers responsibility for WWII from Hitler to Stalin. This article in Slavic Review sees this as "overarching conspiracy theories". The book is mainly known for this controversy. The version created by MVBW - permalink is problematic from a NPOV and PROFRINGE standpoint - this version is absent anything critical on this book - presenting it as mainstream (when it is very much not so).Icewhiz (talk) 17:59, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Statement by ZScarpiaThe description given by Icewhiz of the book Icebreaker (the full text of which is available here) in the comment immediately above, "a book that transfers responsibility for WWII from Hitler to Stalin", is inaccurate and, since Suvorov has been conflated elsewhere with Irving, rather gives the impresssion that he, and by extension MVBW, is some kind of Hitler apologist. The book came out in 1990, when in the Soviet Union, the period before Operation Barbarossa, when the Soviet Union was an ally of Germany, attacking Poland and assisting the German war effort with material, had been blanked from history. Suvorov's aim wasn't to defend Hitler but to attack Stalin. He wrote in the Preface to another, similar book of his, "The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II": "This book is about Stalin's aggressive endeavors, about his role in plotting World War II - the bloodiest slaughter in human history. Perhaps one might become suspicious: in exposing Stalin, am I attempting to exonerate Hitler? No, I am not. For me, Hitler remains a heinouse criminal. But if Hitler was a criminal it does not at all follow that Stalin was his innocent victim, as Communist propaganda portrayed him before the world." There are a lot of conflicting theories about why Hitler attacked the Soviet Union when he did. Because of his well-known desire for lebensraum in the east he would eventually have attacked in any case. However, both the Soviet Union and Germany would have viewed the likelihood of each attacking the other eventually as being high, so to present Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union as being pre-emptive is not far fetched. The thesis that the Soviet Union was on the point of launching an attack on Germany in the summer of 1941 is more so. However, to paint the book as consisting of "overarching conspiracy theories" as Icewhiz does is really over-egging it. ← ZScarpia 14:05, 22 September 2019 (UTC) {Word count: 319}
Statement by NugI wasn’t going to comment here, but I have to say it is ironic that Paul doesn’t consider saying ”MVBW is acting as a troll”, let alone calling MVBW a ”Hitler defender” a personal attack, given that he took such offence to my mild rhetorical question as to whether Paul sources some of his views with respect to the Baltic states from Sputniknews.com or rt.com. Paul proceeded to out me here in response[11]. EEML happened over 12 years ago for heaven’s sake. Paul should just apologise to MVBW. --Nug (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC) Statement by GPRamirez5@MVBW.There is no "majority view" on who started World War II. There isn't even a majority view on when WWII started. There is a consensus on who's responsible for the Holocaust.GPRamirez5 (talk) 16:36, 24 September 2019 (UTC)@ZScarpia. It appears to be consensus that Icebreaker is conspiracy theory. This book from Yale University Press calls it "flimsy and fraudulent" and influenced by Suvorov's background as a "master of disinformation". One very notable and disturbing fan of Suvorov's work, however, is the notorious Holocaust-denial site the Institute for Historical Review.GPRamirez5 (talk) 01:28, 25 September 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result concerning Paul Siebert
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
The appeal is declined. GoldenRing (talk) 16:04, 30 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by TheTimesAreAChangingSandstein previously indicated that editing, e.g., Vietnam War was not in violation of the AP2 indef TBAN that he imposed last year. Specifically, he stated that this diff I never appealed the TBAN, but I have little choice but to request that it be modified or reduced now that Sandstein is promulgating an expanded definition of its scope. You could say that any violation, even inadvertent, resets the clock, but I have made an obvious effort to adhere to the ban and the reaching evident in some of MVBW's diffs itself demonstrates this; certainly, there have been no other AE complaints against me since the TBAN was imposed, nor any edits of mine to any articles clearly labelled as subject to DS. Consider the following: 1.) My first AE TBAN was indefinite (rather than lasting for one, three, or six months, etc.), which is unprecedented in my experience on Wikipedia. Its reimposition has significantly limited my editing for more than a year, but if I have unknowingly made constructive edits to articles that could fall within the ban depending on the interpretation of an administrator, that would be an argument for narrowing it, rather than continuing with an open-ended restriction. 2.) The conduct for which I was previously sanctioned at AE was hardly exceptional; if you review the case, you will see that it concerned edit warring at an AP2 article, but I did not violate 3RR and 1RR/consensus required was not in place. While I regret taking the bait, three administrators—GoldenRing, Awilley, and Timotheus Canens—argued that the indef TBAN that Sandstein imposed was too harsh and/or that the other party in the dispute was guilty of (in the words of Timotheus Canens) Statement by SandsteinThis appeal should be declined at least insofar at it is addressed against the enforcement block. Regarding the topic ban: I leave it to other admins to decide whether the topic ban is still necessary, including as to its scope and length. However:
I already imposed this ban once with a time limit, and later lifted it based on TheTimesAreAChanging's assurances of good conduct. I then had to reinstate it, this time indefinitely. See WP:AELOG/2017#American politics 2. This makes me less willing to believe any new assurances of good conduct. Regarding the enforcement block: The block should not be lifted at this time. I'm open to considering lifting it later if I am convinced that it is no longer needed to prevent ban violations and personal attacks. I'm not convinced about this at this time:
Statement by IcewhizAllegedly TABN violating diffs by TheTimesAreAChanging include - diff in Korean War. While US foreign policy could be construed to be part of US politics - this is stretching it - the edits in question are far from the locus of AP2 (e.g. - spats between Democrats and Republicans) - if any article involving US foreign policy is seen under AP2 - then an AP2 ban is effectively a ban from every geopolitical article post-1932 (as the US is involved in most modern geopolitics - e.g. Brexit or September Knesset election, 2019 could be seen as AP2 due to US involvement, as would just about any military conflict in the period). The trigger to the original complaint was MVBW removing 70% of Icebreaker (Suvorov) - [12] saying an IP added it (the IP reverted another IP that removed it diff) - content that has been present in the article for over a decade. Icebreaker is a book that transfers responsibility for WWII from Hitler to Stalin. This article in Slavic Review sees this as "overarching conspiracy theories". The book is mainly known for this controversy. The version created by MVBW - permalink is problematic from a NPOV and PROFRINGE standpoint - this version is absent anything critical on this book - presenting it as seemingly mainstream (when it is very much not so). Icewhiz (talk) 07:41, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Statement by ZScarpiaPlease see the comment dated 14:05, 22 September 2019 (UTC) I made on Icewhiz's inaccurate description of the book "Icebreaker" in the request concerning Paul Siebert above. ← ZScarpia 14:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishes@Icewhiz. Yes, Suvorov claimed that Stalin tried to use Hitler as a proxy to attack Europe, which would allow the Red Army to “liberate” the Europe from Nazi occupation. This is a provocative idea and something debatable, but not a reason for committing personal attacks. My very best wishes (talk) 15:12, 22 September 2019 (UTC) @Paul (reply to this). It is appropriate to call someone "a Ukrainian nationalist", as one of admins did in the thread below, because he provided a large number of diffs, from which it is obvious for everyone that the user is indeed a Ukrainian nationalist. But it is something completely different to repeat personal accusations on noticeboards and talk pages without any strong evidence. That is what you do. Statement by Paul Siebert
@KillerChihuahua: I asked GorillaWarfare about clarifications of how ARBEE work, and, based on their answer I have to concede that the TTAAC's edit summaries, which might be marginally acceptable at regular WP pages, are not acceptable in the areas covered by AE. However, the misconduct TTAAC was acting against is also punishable. Taking into account that it seems admins cannot take actions until some AE request had been filed, I'll better focus on preparation of that request. With regard to my own statements, they were made in a context of the prospective AE request, and contained a description of actionable misconduct at Sandstein's page, so I think a term "personal attack" is hardly applicable here.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:35, 27 September 2019 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChangingResult of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
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KHMELNYTSKYIA
KHMELNYTSKYIA is TBAN'd from Ukraine, broadly construed. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning KHMELNYTSKYIA
Discussion concerning KHMELNYTSKYIAStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by KHMELNYTSKYIAStatement by Thomas.WI feel there's a need to point out the level of nationalistic POV involved, because, as can be seen here, KHMELNYTSKYIA not only changes the nationality of historic people from Russian (as well as other nationalities/ethnicities) to Ukrainian, but also, through POV pipes like
Statement by Paul SiebertI was having the same problems with this user too and gave her this advice. She seems to have ignored it. By saying that, I would object to severe actions against this user. Two factors should be taken into consideration:
Statement by (username)Comment by My very best wishesThe history of Ivan Kozhedub does show obvious edit warring. But it takes two to tango. Her "opponent", User:Ушкуйник does the same and has been alerted of discretionary sanctions in this area [30]. At the very least, his behavior should be considered in this request. Speaking about their disagreement, it appears that KHMELNYTSKYIA removes source that is indeed a disputable primary source and was not properly referenced (no title, no pages, etc.) [31]. I did not check anything else. My very best wishes (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2019 (UTC) Result concerning KHMELNYTSKYIA
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ClarinoI
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning ClarinoI
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- FDW777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:35, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- ClarinoI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Amendment (February 2019):
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 14:01, 24 September 2019 Calling a living person a terrorist
- 20:19, 26 September 2019 Same as above
- 15:12, 27 September 2019 Same as above
- 22:53, 28 September 2019 Same as above
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. Also see here, as I do not know how the system log works but I cannot see my notification.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
On 15:51, 27 September 2019 I explained to the editor why their edit was incorrect and suggested they discuss it on the article's talk page. This was ignored and the editor reverted again.
- @Pudeo: The sentence being edited already ends with "best known for planting a bomb in the Brighton Grand Hotel targeting Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and her Cabinet, which killed five people". I would think most people reading that would form their own opinion of Patrick Magee, without the need to apply a contentious unattributed label to a living person. FDW777 (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: I had no wish for ClarinoI to use my talk page as a soapbox for their views. I had previously directed them to use the article's talk page here. Also in that diff I refuted their point that the term "volunteer" suggests he "were helping set up seats for his local church's fund raising concert". Even after I pointed out the article links to Volunteer (Irish republican) not to Volunteer ClarinoI still claimed it did here, so it is hardly fair to claim I am failing to discuss when ClarinoI does not read the article or my comments properly and makes the same incorrect assertion. I don't care what, if any, sanction is applied, providing it stops the edit warring. FDW777 (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning ClarinoI
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by ClarinoI
Statement by Pudeo
This person is described as "terrorist", "former terrorist" or having committed a terrorist attack in some sources: [33][34][35] though he himself objects to being labeled as such: [36]. MOS:TERRORIST does not mean the word can't be used to describe a BLP in Wikipedia. For instance, the stable version of Anders Behring Breivik has called him a terrorist since 2011.
So that's not an outrageous BLP violation itself. The problem is that he didn't use sources or communicate when questioned. Maybe he's new. But he needs to do that when doing these kind of contentious edits. --Pudeo (talk) 18:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Buffs
I personally take a very dim view of those who target and intentionally slaughter innocents for political purposes. By definition, he's a terrorist and one convicted of his crimes. Describing him otherwise is inappropriate and an attempt to push WP:NPOV beyond the lines of credulity. That said, I think an RfC and discussion should resolve this and I'll happily take whatever consensus comes about.
This seems like a relatively new user doing noob things and should be handled accordingly. I endorse a short block for edit warring, but we should work to engage with this editor, not expunge them; I'm not seeing any violation of WP:BLP. This is a SIMPLE content dispute that doesn't need to be here. Buffs (talk) 17:05, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning ClarinoI
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is actionable. A discussion could well be had about whether this man should be described as a terrorist: He set a bomb that killed five people, and that article, Brighton hotel bombing, is part of the category Category:Terrorist incidents in the United Kingdom in 1984. But this label would need reliable sources. And so far, all ClarinoI has been doing is to edit-war about this. I think an indef WP:NOTHERE normal admin block is indicated. Sandstein 09:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- I think an indef would be harsh here. Inserting the word "terrorist" into a paragraph which otherwise describes him as a member of a terrorist organisation, responsible for a terrorist attack and gives him the nickname "Brighton bomber" is hardly on the long end of BLP violations. FDW777's response to ClarinoI's attempt to discuss it smacks rather of WP:CRYBLP. ClarinoI does need to respond here and indicate that they are aware of the need to source information and to refrain from edit-warring, though. GoldenRing (talk) 15:50, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- I, also, am more on the GoldenRing than the Sandstein end of the proposed resolution. Let's see if the user responds. El_C 15:53, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- See this story. This is not Wikipedia's problem to fix. Whether to call him a terrorist in Wiki-voice or not is a question for the Talk page, it is not a violation of any policy. Guy (help!) 20:35, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with Guy. Whether to call a BLP subject a terrorist in Wikipedia's voice is not a legitimate content dispute. Per the MOS, invoking the label at all requires widespread usage to describe the person in sources, and only then can it be used with in-text attribution. But this is not even that situation. This is not a user here to improve an article with sourced content. This is pure and straightforward POV-pushing to make an article make a negative claim about a subject without a source. They edit warred over it and ignored warnings. Preventing this sort of SPA POV-pushing is exactly why we have these sanctions. I'm all for avoiding biting and AGF, but if there is a refusal to be accountable here and try to learn going forward (or continued disruption), a straight Troubles TBAN would make sense. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Right. Per MOS:TERRORIST "Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinions and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." ~Awilley (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Especially when we are talking about the Troubles, and this person being associated with the IRA, replacing the accurate (if not questionable term) Volunteer (Irish republican) with "terrorist", without adding attribution, is definitely wrong. We can let readers make their own determination if IRA members should be called terrorists, but WP should be avoiding that direct association in wikivoice like the plague, and this is definitely an actionable report within the Troubles confines. --Masem (t) 00:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Whatever the merits of this case, the user has made seven edits in total and none since Sunday. I suspect we have seen the last of them. GoldenRing (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- This seems like a relatively new user that lacks an understanding of our policies. A pointer to them, along with a short block for edit-warring—as a regular admin action, not an AE action—would be appropriate under normal circumstances. However, I would close this matter as stale since, as GR points out, the editor has made seven edits altogether and none in the last five days or so. Neutralitytalk 01:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Roscelese
The reported edits were not violations. Slugger O'Toole is banned from making any reports about Roscelese at any administrative noticeboard, including but not limited to AE and ANI. Both parties are advised that one or two way interaction bans and/or blocks will be imposed if the interpersonal disruption continues. All editors are reminded that the purpose of the sanctions is to bring stability to the topic area and facilitate collegial improvement to the encyclopaedia, they are not there to remove or hinder those you disagree with. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Roscelese
Roscelese has three restrictions, including being "required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page." The difs below show instances where she did not. It's true that she did give explanations in her edit summaries. However, in a previous AE case she made a similar argument. The argument was not persuasive as the restrction clearly states explanations must be made on the talk page.
Discussion concerning RosceleseStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Roscelese
Statement by BinksternetLooks like hounding to me, with Slugger O'Toole trying once again to silence Roscelese who represents a voice in opposition to Slugger's political advocacy. In real life, Slugger is a pro-life activist, a member of the Knights of Columbus, and connected to the Catholic University of America (CUA). Starting out with the name Briancua, Slugger has been trying for four years to shut down Roscelese who continues to write about Catholicism and homosexuality in a way that upsets Slugger's plan to show the most conservative aspect of the Catholic Church. I would suggest an interaction ban placed on Slugger. Binksternet (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2019 (UTC) Statement by PudeoThis is a poor filing, as those indeed are not reverts (except one), and even if they were, it would be too much of a "gotcha" to gather them from completely unrelated articles without edit conflicts. There are no personal parole officers, though this also means editors with restrictions will get away with some instances. Although Binksternet's comment above was not outing, do we really assess the real life memberships of editors at AE? Seems like that is very close to what is described in the second bullet point of What is considered to be a personal attack? I hope that Roscelese's description of Statement by AquillionGiven that Slugger O'Toole is patiently hounding Roscelese here over things that are not reverts, and given that all three of the previous reports O'Toole references were made by him (which is more than a little excessive), I strongly urge a WP:BOOMERANG restriction barring O'Toole from bringing any more administrative or AE requests against Roscelese in the future, possibly even more broadly against filing WP:AE requests at all. The topic area is highly active, and if Roscelese is actually a problem there should be plenty of other people bringing reports - at this point it is hard to interpret the situation as anything but O'Toole trying to game the system to remove someone they disagree with. I would also suggest reconsidering Roscelese's restrictions - while, yes, some of the other reports were genuine violations, they don't seem to have caused much disruption, and the fact that O'Toole was able to so easily find unrelated minor infractions and get Roscelese repeatedly blocked with them suggests that the restriction may not be reasonable or workable, especially given that at a quick glance nobody else seems to have had any problem with Roscelese's conduct in the four years since the restrictions were placed. The fact that Roscelese had a clean block log for four years and was then blocked three times in rapid succession when O'Toole started targeting them implies, to me, that the problem is with the overly-broad restrictions and not with Roscelese. EDIT: Also, by my reading none of O'Toole's previous reports came with any sort of warning or request to self-revert - I believe that's normal for revert-limit-based restrictions, since it's so easy to violate them by accident. If Roscelese's restrictions aren't relaxed entirely, I would suggest at least a requirement for some sort of warning of that sort - the purpose of the restrictions is to ensure article stability, not to enable games of gotcha like this. --Aquillion (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Roscelese
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François Robere
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning François Robere
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:53, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- François Robere (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Discretionary_sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 17:13, 2 October 2019 WP:Aspersions
- 08:33, 4 October 2019 - unsubstantiated accusations of several contributors of Holocaust denial. Publication of an "attack article" off-wiki does not mean that personal attacks should continue on-wiki.
- 13:57, 4 October 2019 - "I'll be happy to give you a whole bunch of diffs to show you how some editors consistently apply antisemitic stereotypes". WP:Aspersions and worse.
- 15:15, 4 October 2019 - reply to warning
- 22:19, 4 October 2019 - doubling down
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months 26 August 2019.
- Participated in an arbitration request about the area of conflict in the last twelve months [37].
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- My apology if I misunderstood something, but I thought it was obvious which contributors François Robere is talking about in diffs #1 and #3 because he named them in diff #2 and because of the overall context of the conversations and previous history.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
here.
Discussion concerning François Robere
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by François Robere
- No editor was named here.
- Citing a newly published article at a major newspaper (Haaretz), backed by two major historians (Jan Grabowski and Havi Dreifuss).[1]
- This is not an "off-Wiki attack article", but a piece vetted by some of the most reliable names in the field, and I was quoting it as-is as part of an ongoing discussion at Talk:Jimbo Wales. Other editors have raised it, independently, on at least four other pages.[38][39][40][41]
- No editor was named here.
- "Warning" from admin I'm unfamiliar with, alleging I made comments I didn't make (and that I clearly expressed my disagreement with twice [42]). Discussion was promptly closed by an Arb as "off-topic discussion that was deteriorating quickly".[43] I was not personally warned, nor singled out by the Arb.
- Citing an RS where the editor was explicitly mentioned. I have only mentioned the editor once; this is the same mention as #2.
- Editor is under T-ban (history of Poland during World War II) and I-ban (Icewhiz),[44] and the discussion was about Icewhiz and Holocaust revisionism.
The OP is looking to ban me for citing a highly reliable source once; commenting on unnamed, ambiguous "editors" twice; and for being addressed by an editor I don't know for things I didn't say. I trust the admins will dismiss this request with haste. François Robere (talk) 11:01, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Benjakob, Omer (2019-10-03). "The Fake Nazi Death Camp: Wikipedia's Longest Hoax, Exposed". Haaretz. Retrieved 2019-10-03.
Statement by Roscelese
Speaking as a user with minimal prior editing history in this area, the problems that Francois is describing represent a serious threat to the integrity of Wikipedia and it would be a shame if describing them were sanctionable behavior. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning François Robere
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'm not seeing anything actionable here. In particular, the alleged aspersions were not cast against any identified or identifiable editors. Everybody in the whole Poland/WWII topic area needs to seriously calm down or at some point we'll have to ban a whole lot of people. Sandstein 11:26, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
- Agree w/ Sandstein here, and as one that read that Haaretz article, it may out some past editors' names (I haven't checked to see if they were already outed), but it is far from an attack article but a fair look at a situation on WP related to this area. I do think FR needs to tone down the rhetoric - behavior is in the ballpark to the reasons why an editor like TheRamblingMan came under specific sanctions but not at a point of actionability yet. --Masem (t) 14:09, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm unconvinced that there is anything sanctionable here, but as Masem says, FR needs to dial it back a lot here; there are only so many times that you can accuse un-named editors of anti-semitism without naming them (diff3), but then name other editors in a separate context (diff2) without eventually doing something that will get you sanctioned. Icewhiz, sadly, went too far with this; it would be unfortunate if it happened again. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC)