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==SPECIFICO== |
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{{hat|{{u|SPECIFICO}} is reminded that being rude isn't particularly helpful in discussions, and it is a slippery slope that can lead to sanctions later. There doesn't seem to be an consensus or need to say more than that. On another note, using diffs that are more than a year old is seldom helpful. Keeping a report short and to the point is preferred. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 12:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)}} |
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<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
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*As a general comment, would people raising complaints here ''please'' consider that administrators don't make decisions based on who has the highest word count? [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights#top|<span style="font-family: MS Mincho; color: black;">話して下さい</span>]]) 01:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC) |
*As a general comment, would people raising complaints here ''please'' consider that administrators don't make decisions based on who has the highest word count? [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights#top|<span style="font-family: MS Mincho; color: black;">話して下さい</span>]]) 01:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::It's just a suspicion but I would guess that the longer the editor statement, the more likely it is that readers will skim through it. Concise, precise and focused statements are always more influential than lengthy, overly detailed and convoluted ones. That's a general statement, like Blade's, not a comment specific to this case. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 04:55, 17 October 2020 (UTC) |
::It's just a suspicion but I would guess that the longer the editor statement, the more likely it is that readers will skim through it. Concise, precise and focused statements are always more influential than lengthy, overly detailed and convoluted ones. That's a general statement, like Blade's, not a comment specific to this case. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 04:55, 17 October 2020 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 12:06, 17 October 2020
Coffeeandcrumbs 1RR violations at Andy Ngo
All are reminded that BLP exceptions to revision restrictions should be used with great caution and only in the clearest of circumstances. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Coffeeandcrumbs
Andy Ngo is subject to 1RR as a DS under AP2 [[1]] The notice is on the top of Talk:Andy_Ngo
Editor is aware of both BLP and AP2 DSs [[3]] Dorsetonian and myself asked CC to self revert before the second set of edits were made [[4]] A talk page discussion related to CC's edits was also made prior to the second pair of edits [[5]] While the first two diffs could be seen as a single revert and the addition of new content, the second two reverts are clear. The second two don't have any reverts in between but given the discussions between the two reverts this seems like a questionable action on the editor's part. Even if they claim good faith in removing "journalist" they can't make the same claim for pushing "provocateur". Springee (talk) 17:09, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CoffeeandcrumbsStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Coffeeandcrumbs
Statement by Wikieditor19920Not only is the reported user violating the DS at that page by breaking 1RR, they are adding contentious labels to the opening sentence without sources, and without even a nod to talk page discussion. I have spent some time at this article and this kind of disruptive editing gets in the way of positive changes and potential for consensus. CoffeeCrumbs suggests that it is "contentious" to call the subject a journalist, which is the language used by the New York Times, but defies common sense by stating that "provocateur" is not contentious label to which WP:LABEL applies, and which the highest quality sources on the subject, namely the WaPo and NYT, do not use. The editor clearly broke the DS at the relevant page and their reasoning here reverses the very meaning of BLP. Update: It is baffling that C&C now opens an RfC "in good faith" and accuses Springee of "coming here to complain" only after they violated the pages discretionary sanctions. Springee was right to bring this report, and the RfC should've proceeded C&C's addition to the article, let alone edit-warring it back in over 1RR. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by LizI guess I should state that I reverted what I judged to be a reversion of a legitimate edit. I am aware of the continued efforts over the past few days by new editors to label Ngo a "propagandist", which is negative not based on reliable sources, but I thought "provocateur" was an appropriate descriptor. I was unaware of any conflict between these specific editors on this or other articles or talk pages. Liz Read! Talk! 17:52, 1 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by Objective3000Like Liz, I also reverted propagandist. Like Liz, I also think provocateur is an appropriate descriptor. The two have very different meanings and provocateur and the like can be well sourced. Speaking of provocateur, I find some of the comments here and attempts to mess with the RfC provocative. I do see a technical 1RR vio. I say technical because it follows an IP edit war in the same wording and might be considered part of a cleanup. I suggest trout dinner all around (with social distancing) and using the RfC for agreement. O3000 (talk) 18:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by Dorsetonian
Statement by ShinealittlelightIn the link provided by Springee, the matter of whether 'journalist' should be in the lead was off and on under debate from August 2019 to January 2020. Now C&C wades in and raises the tired issue yet again, and violates 1RR in the process. This is not complex. If C&C can't follow 1RR, Andy Ngo is not the right article for C&C to be editing. We don't need to continue the long discussion of the issue of the word 'journalist' at AE; 1RR is either a bright line to be enforced here or it isn't. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Coffeeandcrumbs
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Peregrine Fisher
Proud Boys falls outside of the Race and Intelegence topic area --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:43, 11 October 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Peregrine Fisher
While the talk discussion was not particularly malicious, Proud Boys is currently protected after the slew of vandalism and NPOV issues, primarily trying to remove the mention of white supremacy and neo-fascism. In their comments, Peregrine Fisher also exhibited general incivility, often making stark and blanket assertions that other editors are wrong.
Special:Diff/981911385 Discussion concerning Peregrine FisherStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Peregrine FisherStatement by MelbourneStarI raised AE restrictions with the editor in question, here, after their query to the Proud Boys talk page with pertinence to white supremacy. Also, Proud Boys wiki-links to Race and Intelligence per this (although I'm not sure how, I can't find the link; if someone can find it that would be great). Thank you, —MelbourneStar☆talk 08:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by ItsPugle@Guerillero: Proud Boys have been designated as a racist hate group by the SPLC, often marketing themselves as "western chauvinists", with an "anti-white guilt" and "western superiority" agenda. ADL has called them Islamophobic and anti-Semitic with significant members sharing "white supremacist and anti-Semitic ideologies and/or engage with white supremacist groups". They're commonly called a white supremacy group by reliable sources, too (see the 11 sources provided in response to Peregrine Fisher's dispute). By all regards, the Proud Boys are a racist, white supremacist, violent political militia. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 05:09, 5 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by NfitzAs Peregrine often doesn't edit for days (or sometimes weeks) at a time, probably best to leave this open for a week or so, in case they want to provide input. Nfitz (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Peregrine Fisher
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BrownHairedGirl
Now at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment § Amendment request: Portals. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 19:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Per the decision in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Portals#Remedies issues on 29 January 2020, BrownHairedGirl is prohibited from "engaging in discussions about portals anywhere on Wikipedia", and from "interacting with or commenting about Northamerica1000 anywhere on Wikipedia", both subject to appeal "in six months". BrownHairedGirl has studiously observed these restrictions for over eight months now, and has continued to contribute excellent work to the encyclopedia since then. Another editor and I are therefore preparing to renominate her for adminship. It is possible that either of the aforementioned issues will be raised by participants in the discussion, and I therefore request that the specified restrictions be lifted, either in their entirety, or at least to the extent needed for the purpose of fully engaging any issues that may arise during the course of the RfA. I am also informing User:Northamerica1000 of this request. BD2412 T 17:40, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
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Jorm
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Jorm
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Pudeo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:14, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jorm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 8 August 2020:
fuck off with your transphobia shit
personal attack - 27 September 2020 :
Go fuck yourself, transphobe
personal attack - 1 October 2020:
The Gamergate Controversy is a bullshit set of terms used to describe a misogynist harassment campaign without actually calling it a "harassment campaign" while also not trying to hurt the feelings of a bunch of assholes. It was started by a bunch of chucklefucks--
Battleground attitude, personal attacks etc. - 8 October 2020:
go fuck yourself
personal attack - 8 October 2020:
Masem always argues that we put the propaganda first. They did it for Gamergate - so much so that those deplorable fucks refer to them as "Based Masem". Masem will always carry water like this. Keep that in mind while developing consensus.
Battleground attitude, personal attack
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Last alerted by SMcCandlish on 9 July 2020.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Diffs speak for themselves, and they are all related to the GamerGate/gender topics DS area. Especially the attack on Masem for his GamerGate editing had plenty of unneeded vitriol.
Someone opened a thread about "Attitude" on Jorm's talk page just last week. He responded with his usual "cool story, bro" shtick. --Pudeo (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Jorm
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Jorm
Everyone is expressing fear and disappointment that I'm not engaging in this but I don't see much of a point. As I get older I find my desire to engage with bullshit gets smaller and smaller but let's be clear: choosing to disengage is not my go-to action. I don't lead with it.
I find that I am about to get a stern talking to because I do not choose to engage with folk who come to my talk page with rancor. If a person comes to me looking for a fight, how should I respond? Should I get in the fight, and then be dragged before AN/I? Should I just ignore the post, and then get dragged here and called "non-responsive"?
Should I use different language to indicate that I am not going to engage? Would "I am not going to engage with you" be any better? Probably not; I think the same thing would happen: "Jorm hurt my feefees by not letting me vent my spleen at him".
Perhaps someone can provide me with language they find more acceptable.
Statement by Jayron32
Other than some salty language, at least 3 of your diffs were reverts from throw away accounts used by abusive bigots. Being told to leave with emphasis is exactly what should be done. I don't see anything there that rises to the level of sanctioning. --Jayron32 23:35, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just an aside, because several people have brought it up, is that "Cool story, Bro" is the correct way to respond to obvious sealioning. These are not good faith disagreements, these are bigots hiding behind civility in an attempt to win a debate not on its merits but by baiting their opponents, and Jorm's refusal to engage with such bad faith false civility is a perfect way to handle it. --Jayron32 11:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Masem
Only noting that I know about the statement Jorm made in that discussion related to me and I just let it pass and still plan on letting it pass. Its disappointing that people want to dreg that up and assume bad faith when I try to argue on neutral stances on WP, but such is the case. --Masem (t) 00:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Gamaliel
In the words of GorillaWarfare: "We have picked a side, which is that LGBTQ Wikipedians are welcome here." For LGBTQ Wikipedians to be truly welcome here, we should be telling transphobes to fuck off. Gamaliel (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Cullen 328
Personally, I do not use the "f-bomb" on Wikipedia (and very rarely in real life) but there is no consensus that the word is banned in these contexts. I encourage Jorm to select other words which are just as effective but less controversial. Trolls, haters and other purely disruptive jerks should be shown the door, quite promptly. As for Jorm's remarks about Masem, I do not see a personal attack but rather a harsh (but defensible) critique of Masem's unique philosophy of editing. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:06, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
This is the same sort of personally hostile battlegrounding and socio-political PoV-pushing that lead to me leaving the DS/Alert several months ago. But the editor appears to have simply doubled down. This is not about a specific word and whether it is "banned" (well know it is not). It's about intent and effects, in a long-term disruptive pattern. It's about WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOT, WP:DE, and WP:CIR. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:50, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Sceptre
I see nothing wrong with Jorm telling bigots to go do one; encyclopaedic neutrality does not, and has never, meant neutrality outside of article-space, and demanding civility in the face of bigotry is peak paradox of tolerance. Sceptre (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
Masem always argues that we put the propaganda first. They did it for Gamergate - so much so that those deplorable fucks refer to them as "Based Masem". Masem will always carry water like this. Keep that in mind while developing consensus.
I can't believe the above statement is being described as a defensible critique of a philosophy of editing or a legitimate behavioral concern. Lev!vich 18:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
As to the other comments, while I'm not one to advocate for sanctioning people for using profanity, we'd do better to be more professional, especially in mainspace edit summaries, which are the "official logs" of our articles. Telling people to "f off", even if they deserve it, doesn't make anyone look tough or cool or righteous, it just makes us all look childish for being the kind of place where profanity is used in "official" records. Lev!vich 21:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
That Jorm has been dealing with some rather unsavoury editors is in no doubt, but seriously, is it not possible to make vandals feel very unwelcome without resorting to a gutter language? That seems rather untalented, me thinks. Huldra (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Just my 2 cents: GamerGate etc, is one of the most contentious areas on Wikipedia, for sure. But I edit in the I/P area (that's why I watch WP:AE!) - hardly any less contentious area, where trolls, death- and rape-threats are 13 to the dozen ...still, such gutter language (as linked to above) are not seen (in general!) among "the regulars" there.
Why is that?
Also, I suspect if anyone regularly used such language, they would very soon no longer be "a regular"; they would be topic-banned/blocked.
Why do we allow one set of behaviour in one area, but another set of behaviour in another area?
No, I don't want Jorm sanctioned, just a clear warning that such a language will not be accepted in the future (not even when dealing with vandals who are going to "rape your wife to death before they kill you" (just to mention a pretty common threat in the I/P area)) Huldra (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Ugh. I'm extremely unimpressed with Jorm's reply here. If people come to you "looking for a fight", you should behave with cool. Simple as that. Huldra (talk) 22:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Comment by JzG
I think that changing an article to misgender someone should be an instant indef block. We should ask Jorm to dial back the rhetoric, and then go and block the trolls. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Liz
Jorm has chosen to patrol some controversial articles which attract drive-by editors with extreme attitudes who he often effectively shooes away. I don't use the f-bomb and I don't think it is necessary to get your point across. But I can understand its use with some hostile newbies who seek to cause disruption or to radically shift articles that usually have volumes of talk page discussions that have occurred to arrive at a consensus in the article tone and wording.
What I would like to challenge him on though is his use of "Cool story, bro" to editors who are not fly-by-night but are regular editors who just are coming from a different, often opposing, perspective. It's an unnecessarily dismissive and condescending phrase that isn't an appropriate response to another editor's argument. We know that these pages can be polarizing but I think it's important to meet a serious critique from a regular editor with a counter-argument not a flippant reply.
The comment about Masem seems like old news (Gamergate was in 2014-2015!) and it is odd to be rehashing events years later, but if the comment doesn't offend Masem, I don't think we should be imposing any restrictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liz (talk • contribs)
- I agree, by and large, with the admin comments below. But I'm disappointed that Jorm hasn't seen fit to at least respond to this complaint. That shows an unwillingness to engage with criticism that indicates that a stern warning might not have any effect at all. And, personally, I'd like to see Jorm continue to chase away trolls. Liz Read! Talk! 04:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Grayfell
All of these edits appear appropriate in context. Transphobia is itself a violation of Wikipedia's principles, so this seems more like a witch-hunt then an actionable complaint. Also, all this tone policing and pearl-clutching over "swear words" seems disproportionate and, ironically, very immature. Grayfell (talk) 22:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Shinealittlelight
Admin Swarm once told me the following [11], which to me seems relevant to the remarks Jorm made about Masem:
Comment on content, not contributors. It really is as simple as that. For example, let's say someone's being a complete prick, and everyone agrees. Is it okay to call them out on being a prick? No, it's not okay to make an accusation, even if you're not wrong. You report them to WP:AN/I with evidence of relevant policy violations, and we will block them. Let's say a user is an obvious sockpuppet. Is it okay to accuse them of being a sockpuppet? No. Again, report to admins with evidence. Let's say someone obviously has a strong bias. Is it okay to imply that they are being motivated by their bias? No, as long as they're complying with policies, their obvious bias is irrelevant. The overwhelming majority of us have strong biases, and the overwhelming majority of us do not POV-push in articles. If someone is editing with an obvious WP:COI, such as a user deleting negative content from an article about their business, of course that's not tolerated. But, even then, you don't attack their character or argue with them, you simply report them to us so we can handle them accordingly. It's really pretty simple. Don't over think it. If you're going to make a negative comment about someone personally, don't.
Shinealittlelight (talk) 22:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Yair rand
Some topic areas are difficult to work in, but if one can't maintain a proper level of decorum and civility while doing so, one should not edit there. Routine use of comments with such a level of hostility towards other editors, or such aggressive use of profanity in general, is never acceptable.
If it appears that the Jorm is expressing clear unwillingness to change their behaviour, I don't think a warning will even do anything. Users that can't cooperate in a civil and productive manner with those they disagree with should not be allowed to continue to participate here, unless we believe that their behaviour is going to change. --Yair rand (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Result concerning Jorm
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Looking over the diffs, the only one that is actionable is this personal attack on Masem. At this time I think that we don't need to do more than to remind Jorm to focus on the content not the contributor. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 00:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have to say that this makes me uncomfortable --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- The real question is: Do our policies on civility apply to trolls? We have traditionally been very lenient when it comes to responding to throwaway accounts, but this pushes the limit a bit. The real problem is the Masem reply, as Guerillero noted above. I agree with Guerillero that harsh sanctions aren't needed, although I think more than a soft touch is warranted, and would instead recommend a strongly worded warning that civility isn't optional and the lack of it serves to make the editing environment more toxic. especially on the talk pages of controversial subjects where there is often more heat than light. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- My hesitation about any type of warning here is basically what Cullen328 said: this is a legitimate, though strongly stated, critique of the behaviour of another editor. If this was said at ANI/here with diffs it’d be allowable. It didn’t have diffs, so it was an aspersion. That’s not good, but I’m also loathe to start sanctioning or warning people for pointing out what is a legitimate behavioural concern. It does need diffs, though, and that is my biggest concern. Jorm, if you encounter this issue again provide diffs and take it to AE or AN. We have a rule against aspersions for a reason. Note: I’ve disagreed with Masem twice in recent days on how our policies apply to white supremacism, but I don’t consider myself involved in regards to him or the topic area, but I think it worth noting. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would suggest that at minimum, a warning to focus on content instead of contributors is in order. And it's time we accept that labeling people as "deplorables" is always going to be counterproductive. ~Awilley (talk) 16:36, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much to be done here. However, TonyBallioni the fact that the comment didn't come in a conduct forum and was not supported with diffs is incredibly important. There is a reason we have conduct forums: so our article talk pages can stay focused on content. There is a reason we demand diffs: we don't want to support casting aspersions. If there were a pattern of some the behavior towards Masem being presented I'd feel differently. However, one such act by a longterm productive editor (like Jorm) needs a friendly nudge - and being brought to AE is already more than a friendly nudge - rather than a formal sanction. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Reverting even truly horrible edits with "go fuck yourself" edit summaries is unfortunate. Even apart from any concerns about decorum, it's just too much fun for the troll on the other end who will think he has successfully gotten a rise out of a perceived enemy. Don't make this a fun paintball game, just stick with boring "Undid revision 982224172 by 190.193.156.241". As for the Masem edit, it isn't some reasonable complaint that just needed a couple of diffs or another forum to be okay. It's a battleground attack which attempts to paint Masem as a member of some hated enemy team. I would support a warning. Haukur (talk) 10:33, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would support a warning, not in the interests of decorum or because trolls deserve consideration, but because focusing on content rather than editors, and discussing behavior only with evidence and in appropriate fora, are pretty fundamental aspects of our behavioral expectations, and refusing to participate in a discussion about one's own behavior is not a good look, per Guerillero. Also, speaking purely tactically for a moment, swearing at trolls is typically going to make any trolling problem worse, not better. WP:RBI and WP:DFTT exist for a reason. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:55, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've got a pretty hard time caring too much if someone replies "Go fuck yourself" to a section entitled "Why don't you be factual and not libtarded?" followed by an obviously transphobic rant. Yes, ideally, we shouldn't sink to the troll's level, but such an individual is obviously not here in good faith. On the other hand, this [13], followed by the dismissive attitude here [14], are not acceptable at all. The first is a clear personal attack and, without evidence, a casting of aspersions against a longtime editor (with serious allegations at that), and the second shows that Jorm does not particularly care about this type of behavior (the "cool story" part appears to be a reference to the sarcastic and dismissive "Cool story, bro" expression, and that's not an acceptable way of engaging a good-faith request). I would support a final warning that one should revert, block, and ignore trolls and vandals, and that one is expected to treat fellow editors, including those with one whom disagrees, with a reasonable degree of respect and civility and not engaging in personal attacks, including evidence-free allegations of malicious intent. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:12, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Jorm, let's ignore the parts where you told trolls to fuck off. (Though I'll reiterate that's not ideal; if nothing else, just revert them and if necessary report them. Getting a rise out of someone is a thrill for them; getting unceremoniously booted out the door is not). Aside from that, though, this [15] was not on your talk page, it was on Talk:Gamergate controversy. That's not appropriate. You've been around long enough to know that we would not use terms like "assholes" and "chucklefucks" in articles. Article talk pages are for discussion of what neutrally worded article text should be, not as a forum for you to express your personal opinions about a subject. But the most concerning remains this one [16], which was also not on your talk page. That was a direct attack against another editor, and a serious one. Indeed, an administrator was already desysopped and site banned for being in league with inappropriate external influences. That is a serious accusation. If you have sufficient evidence, bring it to ArbCom. If you don't, then don't accuse them of that again. So far as your own talk page, you have every right to refuse to engage with anyone who posts there, but if you do choose to, you are expected to do so civilly and respectfully. If you just want to revert, remove, or immediately archive the post without response, that's your choice, but civil and respectful discourse is expected if you do choose to respond. That does not mean at all that you are required to agree with anyone, but if you disagree, it is expected that you will do so civilly and without rancor, sarcasm, or casting aspersions about someone's motivations. Instead, just say "I disagree with you and here is why." Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I like Jorm. I appreciate Jorm, for their humanity and wit. To the best of my recollection, I have not had a negative encounter with them, contrasted with multiple positive ones. That having been said, Jorm has been skirting the line for a long time now. As Liz mentions, the flippant nature of the repeated "cool story, bro," for example — I think the usefulness of that as a rhetorical device has been long exhausted. I'm afraid that if Jorm proves unwilling or unable to will themselves to begin acting in a manner which is more reserved, sanctions are probably inevitable. Which would be a sad outcome. But I have confidence that Jorm has it in them to be able to adjust their conduct accordingly. And I don't think that adjustment needs to take away from the potency of their assertions about content. Therefore, I support escalating to a final warning and am very much hoping that that will do the trick. El_C 22:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I find my thoughts generally align with El_C and Seraphimblade. I generally don't think we need to avoid the occasional use of less-than-pristine language and I certainly encourage robust debate, but we shouldn't condone aspersions and battleground behavior either, both of which Jorm is straying into. Hopefully he'll take a warning on board. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
John2510
John2510 is warned to avoid using direct quotes or otherwise copying materials from outside sources without appropriate marking as a quote and attribution. No further action taken. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning John2510
I don't know if there were any previous sanctions. I didn't submit this at CCI because I don't know if there are previous cases of copyvio. I had not interacted with this editor before very recently on the article talk page where we had conflict. Things seemed to be getting more cordial but then I noticed that one of their first article edits subsequent to the talk page conflict introduced copyvio for apparent expediency in rewriting a sentence: note that So this would seem to fit somewhere in the AE talk page notice prohibition For full disclosure, I wrote the original sentence that was modified and I restored it to my original wording to fix the copyvio.
Discussion concerning John2510Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by John2510In this bulk edit Struthious Bandersnatch included reference to the Richards case, as well as analysis that appears to be wholly OR. Reviewing his sources, I could find only one that even mentioned the case, and did so as a characterization from something out of a separate Washington Post opinion statement. The characterization from the source was entirely different from the editor's point. Rather than being accused of mischaracterizing the brief statement, I used the statement from the article making only minor structural changes. It appears to fall well within fair use, but I've invited the other editor to paraphrase it if he feels otherwise. He could have done that instead of coming here, of course. John2510 (talk) 12:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC) I had restored the text and noted its fair use in talk prior to seeing this pending action. I've now deleted it pending the outcome of the arbitration. John2510 (talk) 12:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Statement by Struthious BandersnatchI guess I should also say that this would seem like a quickly-fixed minor incident to me, to under other circumstances handle one-on-one rather than with a reporting process, if it weren't a nearly-14-year editor who is a member of WikiProject Law and is Aware™ of Arbitration Enforcement and did it on an AE-marked article furthermore marked
Result concerning John2510
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SPECIFICO
SPECIFICO is reminded that being rude isn't particularly helpful in discussions, and it is a slippery slope that can lead to sanctions later. There doesn't seem to be an consensus or need to say more than that. On another note, using diffs that are more than a year old is seldom helpful. Keeping a report short and to the point is preferred. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC) | ||||||||||||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
Gender-related controversies
American Politics Biographies of living persons Within the area of conflict, editors are expected to edit carefully and constructively, to not disrupt the encyclopedia, and to:
All 5 diffs relate to content about sexual misconduct allegations in BLPs. (WP:ARBGG, WP:ARBBLP) Diffs 4 & 5 also fall under WP:ARBAPDS. The evidence shows highlights of a larger pattern of manipulation and WP:CRUSHing against consensus, with some incidental personal attacks. (SPECIFICO's words are in yellow.)
1) 07:47, 16 September 2020 WP:NOCONSENSUS, WP:DISRUPT
2) 07:53 - 20:38, 16 September 2020 WP:NOCONSENSUS, WP:DISRUPT
3) 12:58, 18 September 2020 WP:CIVILITY/ lying, WP:NOCONSENSUS, WP:DISRUPT
4) 11:50, 7 October 2020 WP:CIVILITY/ lying, WP:NOCONSENSUS, WP:DISRUPT, WP:PERSONAL
5) 14:56, 7 October 2020 WP:CIVILITY/ lying, WP:NOCONSENSUS, WP:DISRUPT, WP:PERSONAL
SPECIFICO brought an AE request against me which was closed on 13 September 2020 by Vanamonde93 with the statement that SPECIFICIO's behavior has been dishonest from the start; I believe the evidence shows that they began their editing career briefly sockpuppeteering as User:Kevin4762 over a trivial content dispute.[27] SPECIFICO has not become more honest with time; they have only become more insidious. It's curious that the same ONUS/CONSENSUS dispute with SPECIFICO at Aziz Ansari has also been happening at Julian Assange, one of the only political articles still on my watch list, but I assume that (other than the tactics) it's a coincidence. Although I do note that they claim (in diff 5) that the Consensus Required DS is flawed. Let's not let it be sabotaged; admins have already interpreted this sanction.[28] This all is the very tip of the iceberg; it takes a lot more than 5 diffs to summarize the long-term behavior of a WP:SEALION. (I just scratched the surface of what I observed in the Ansari dispute alone.) Now I may be accused of stalking or revenge-seeking for performing due diligence. What I would actually like is for a person to be able to make a few edits to a few articles in peace without having to be a litigator, a detective, and a Wikipolicy expert. I don't think that is too much to ask. Is there such thing as a "net positive" dishonest editor?
Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICOStatement by LevivichIt's not a contentious claim that Assange has made this "pretext defense". The "Swedish-charges-are-a-pretext-for-extradition" argument is like Assange's #1 argument in his own defense. Widely reported in top RS for years. Examples are on the talk page, and were also discussed at the last AE. The text at issue has been in the lead of the article for 18 months at least [36]. Prior to that, a paraphrased version was in the lead for more than 4 years [37]. It's not a BLPVIO; it makes no sense to allow any one editor to remove any content from an article and force everyone else to form consensus to put it back in. Also, how can the defendant's defense be UNDUE? How can the BLP subject's POV not be a significant viewpoint? I have a hard time seeing the UNDUE objection as having any merit, frankly. It's frustrating to edit an article like this; Specifico should have just made a proposal on the talk page to remove the passage. Insisting that it be removed and the onus is on re-inclusion is disruptive, it's not cool, not for something that's been in the lead for years on such a heavily-edited page. Lev!vich 22:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC) @Kolya Butternut: FWIW, the April AE might be a good example of AE report formatting. It's 6 diffs from the preceding 2 weeks plus 2 diffs from the prior month with almost no commentary. (If the diffs don't speak for themselves, they won't speak to anyone; if they need to be explained, they can be explained away.) At the bottom of that section those 8 diffs were distilled by Awilley down to 5 comments, each of which is "worse" than any of the comments in this report, and those five comments amounted to a logged warning. Lev!vich 05:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by WugapodesI do not believe I am an uninvolved administrator (see my talk archives), so I'll comment here: please do something. I was tired of the SPECIFICO/Kolya drama six months ago when I tried to impose a unilateral solution, and I am tired of it now. In another forum a few days ago, Kolya brought up 8 year old diffs against SPECIFICO to try and get sanctions which was an incredibly transparent fishing trip. Here, the only two diffs that could possible justify sanctions are 4 and 5, and even those aren't exactly compelling. It takes two to tango, of course, and SPECIFICO has been "accidentally" using it to refer to Kolya along with the baiting of Kolya which I first noticed when I got involved in this months ago. This is tiring and we need it to stop. Has our content been improved? Have these disputes encourage more editors to join? Is the time administrators spend handling these disputes time well used? I doubt it. Throw a boomerang, or cast a pox on both houses, or whatever, but quite obviously warnings are not doing anything. 01:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by MONGO(This is a copy paste of my last AE statement regarding this SPECIFICO. Since nothing has changed and well here we go again, here is my post from this past April) In a previous effort to rein in some of SPECIFICO's disruptive battlefield behavior, in August 2018 Administrator AWilley imposed several specialized American Politics 2 discretionary sanctions designed to allow SPECIFICO to continue contributing in the topic area but under a more strict set of behavioral standards as discussed here SPECIFICO was not pleased about these sanctions but they were at that time supported by admins Bishonen and Drmies. The sanctions were set to last one year, but perhaps somewhat angered SPECIFICO almost immediately ceased editing for 6 months, not returning until March 2019. Those sanctions were not applied just in the heat of the moment but after a long series of discussions and warnings that went unheeded, some of which can be seen in SPECIFICOs talkpage discussion just by scrolling up from that link I provided. Has there been any improvement since that self imposed 6 month sabbatical? None I can see:
The commentary is still directed at other editors, and is undermining good faith efforts to reach a consensus in numerous areas. Strongly recommend at least a 90 day AP2 topic ban, as well as a final warning to not comment on editors.--MONGO (talk) 02:51, 14 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by Sir Joseph(copy paste from SPECIFICO)note that SPECIFICO was recently brought to AE just last week. SPECIFICO has repeatedly violated DS and is a generally disruptive editor at the American Politics articles and associated talk pages. I think Admins here should focus on enforcement at whatever level is needed to prevent future disruption. I see no basis to hope that further warnings from [everyone] would somehow change SPECIFICO's behavior. Dear Admins: There's not enough patrolling of these articles by our volunteer Admins. Then when non-Admin editors take the time to report an obvious violation, their report too often ends up in a long drama thread at AE and extensive appeals and recrimination and deflection. I think a better model is simply for AE to carry out the escalating sanctions Arbcom mandated in the AP2 decision. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by JzGThis is close to WP:BOOMERANG territory. We're not here to help you "win" your content dispute, and the mining of ancient warnings and disputes suggests that you know you don't have a proper case. I suggest voluntarily withdrawing this and seeking mediation or creating an RfC. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:58, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
Man, this report is so scattershot, and formatted in such a counterintuitive way... I had a real difficult time sifting through it. Bottom line: I found nothing recent that is egregious enough to be actionable. One item of note that I will briefly touch on is the Consensus required dispute, noting for the record that I disagree with Awilley about enforced BRD being superior to it. Anyway, in that instance, I believe SPECIFICO is very much in the wrong — WP:SILENCE applies to Consensus required. There does not need to be explicit consensus to render longstanding text subject to that restriction. Likewise, if longstanding text is removed or modified and nobody objects to that change, then it becomes the new consensus, per SILENCE. But if there are objections, then the restriction does come into effect, with explicit consensus becoming necessary for said removal or modification. To sum up: I see some editorial conflicts, which ought to be resolved in the usual way. And although the aforementioned Consensus required error on SPECIFICO's part is termed a "lie" by the OP, I see no basis to that accusation — how do you prove someone is lying as opposed to them making a mistake, anyway? While I don't think a BOOMERANG is in order, I would caution the OP to look at a few other AE reports as examples before filing another one, with an emphasis on both potency (egregious conduct that is recent) and presentation (formatting that doesn't hurt my eyes). Because this is a problematic report. El_C 03:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't often participate in this forum even though I regularly look over cases. But I will say that this would be a lot more clear cut, Kolya, if you had presented a case based on one arbitration cases rather than three (Gamergate, BLP and American Politics 2). Compiling a hodgepodge of evidence of edits you find unacceptable that covers different arbitration cases rather than presenting a strong, and deeper, set of diffs based on one case makes it a challenge to evaluate this. Given the frustration expressed here, maybe an interaction ban is called for although this would also be a challenge since you two seem drawn to editing the same articles. But I agree that you can't keep bringing each other here hoping to get the other editor sanctioned. Liz Read! Talk! 04:18, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
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