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Regarding Icewhiz's statement. I'm going to keep this to the minimum. Icewhiz, if you truly feel those diffs are "bad" then go ahead and open up a separate WP:AE request. NONE of them concern this appeal. To quote Sandstein, they "have at best a remote bearing on the subject of this appeal request". I'll be more than happy to respond to them in the most appropriate and deserving manner if you do choose to open up a separate WP:AE request.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 08:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
Regarding Icewhiz's statement. I'm going to keep this to the minimum. Icewhiz, if you truly feel those diffs are "bad" then go ahead and open up a separate WP:AE request. NONE of them concern this appeal. To quote Sandstein, they "have at best a remote bearing on the subject of this appeal request". I'll be more than happy to respond to them in the most appropriate and deserving manner if you do choose to open up a separate WP:AE request.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 08:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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(if any admins DOES wish me to reply to Icewhiz's aspersions here I will be more than happy to do so) [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 08:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
(if any admins DOES wish me to reply to Icewhiz's aspersions here I will be more than happy to do so - for now I just wish to note that "the editor" whom Icewhiz is citing approvingly in #4 of his comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2003:77:8F73:5F01:B99C:DF27:AF21:1F73] is [[User:Kaiser von Europa]] who was indefinetly banned by [[User:Salvio giuliano]] for making violent threats and pushing neo-Nazi POV back in 2013) [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 08:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC) |
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===Statement by Sandstein=== |
===Statement by Sandstein=== |
Revision as of 08:58, 3 March 2019
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme
There is consensus that Atsme deserves a second chance. The topic ban is lifted with a warning that backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AtsmeI’m here to appeal my June 2018 AP2 indef T-ban that was imposed on me by Bishonen at ARCA independently of the case that was filed, noting that I filed a 1st appeal in Aug 2018 and withdrew it within approx 24 hrs with an ArbCom restriction of 6 mos before I could appeal again. The 6 mos. restriction has expired. Over the past few months, I throttled down my editing to focus on family and RL demands, but also managed to devote some private time to reflect on my contributions in the AP2 topic area. I will say that it isn't easy to see oneself objectively but I did try and feel that I’ve succeeded as a result of the time I spent with family and friends who mercilessly indulged me in conversations regarding one of the least favorite topics people want to discuss over the holidays...that being the topic area of this appeal. It was the best thing that could’ve happened as it taught me how to better manage the emotional triggers that topic alone has a tendency to create. It certainly led me to a better understanding of the highly contentious AP2 topic area. More importantly, I’ve learned that the best way to avoid drama in political discussions is to simply stop contributing and walk away. In retrospect, I regret the occasions I strayed from my customary collegial behavior during RfCs and consensus required discussions in the AP2 topic area. I don’t have such issues when editing in other topic areas so I used the latter to gage my behavior in AP2. I now see the biggest problem was my overzealousness to win the debates and gain consensus, showing little consideration to opposing views. The times my position did gain consensus were overshadowed by the inappropriateness of my persistence, and for that I apologize with a promise that it will never happen again. I made a New Year's resolution that if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart. In closing, I will add that I never before realized how intertwined politics is in our everyday lives, or that such a broad t-ban would be so restrictive to my normal editing activities, particularly when working at AfC and NPP. I also became overly cautious and chose to deny requests for copy editing and lead improvement if I saw even a hint of a potential political undertow in the articles. I did not under any circumstances want to inadvertently violate my t-ban. It has been a heavy burden to carry, and I do hope the decision here will weigh in my favor so I can return to my normal editing activity. Atsme✍🏻📧 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by BishonenI don't think I'll comment here, unless someone should have an urgent question for me. But it might be useful to have a link to my topic ban rationale. Here it is. Bishonen | talk 21:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC). It turns out I've nevertheless got a few questions now:
Statement by Mr ErnieI would support a lifting of the restriction. This is a very introspective appeal. Atsme is intelligent and articulate, which are characteristics of editors we need on the project. I believe them when they say they've taken those instructive essays to heart. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by MrXAny administrators considering whether to lift this topic ban should evaluate whether Atsme's appeal addresses the full extent of the conduct that resulted in the topic ban. As the editor who brought the original complaint, I can say that it had nothing to do with civility. Brevity and staying on point are necessary, but so is refraining from the other behaviors that lead to the ban: whataboutism, discrediting reliable sources, claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources, filibustering, sidetracking discussions, POV fighting, rehashing comments, refusing to get the point, distorting policies, and wikilawyering. After Atsme was topic banned, the quality of discussion on several American politics talk pages improved markedly. If the topic ban is lifted, it should come with a firm provision that any recidivism will result in a resumption of the topic ban. - MrX 🖋 02:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by MONGOAtsme is kind, is polite, is passionate about her editing, truly cares and wants to help keep articles balanced in their wording. While Atsme claims that she has had RL issues and what not to attend to since, I feel that the ban took the wind out of her sails for most anything on the site. I therefore support seeing the ban lifted but offer advice should this happen. That advice to Atsme is to not waste your precious hours arguing with editors that loiter on these political articles. While its fine to cast a "vote" and to offer a very concise explanation, the inevitable hectoring from those that disagree with you should be met with no response, no response at all. Brevity is the soul of wit. You will not change their minds, as their minds are made up. Avoid those drama-laden articles where no good happens, no one smiles, no one is happy, where people waste thousands of edits and yet the article is no where near to achieving even a "Good" rating because the article is merely a collection of twisted sound bites, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yes, lift the ban so we can put this behind us and Atsme won't be carrying this on her otherwise quite excellent wiki-resume any longer.--MONGO (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC) Simply adding that Atsme is going to be watched quite obviously. The chance she is going to make an irreversible error is next to zero and if she does err in a manner unpleasing to those here that object to her unbanning, it will surely be quite easy to ban her again, and that will likely be irreversible...at least in the near term.--MONGO (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by Winged Blades of GodricThe appeal looks sincere and impresses upon me that she has understood the problems of her erstwhile conduct in the area. Support a grant. ∯WBGconverse 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by Floq@Atsme:, do you still believe the topic ban was placed unfairly, as retaliation by an involved admin who did so because she hates you? That it should have resulted in Bishonen's desysop? You said that - several times - on your talk page when it was first imposed, and while I haven't gone digging for diffs (I can if you believe I'm being inaccurate), I recall you saying similar things a whole bunch of times after that. Has that perspective changed as well? I'd also value your opinion on MrX's comment above. Do you think the only problem with your behavior was that you weren't being nice and were too longwinded? I'm a friend of Bish's, so I'll consider myself involved, but these are the kind of things I think uninvolved admins should be asking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by MastCellI'm concerned that this appeal shows no indication that Atsme understands the rationale behind the topic ban. She states that she has learned the importance of being brief and remaining civil. True, there was an element of bludgeoning in her previous participation in the topic area, and her commitment to avoid that behavior going forward is welcome. But the topic ban was not placed because Atsme was uncivil, or overly prolix. (If anything, commentary in the initial topic ban discussion generally praised her civility). The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. Those behaviors were rightly identified as toxic to our efforts to cover political topics accurately and neutrally. I would absolutely oppose lifting this topic ban unless and until Atsme grapples with the actual reasons that it was placed. And that's a practical consideration, not a personal one: if she doesn't understand why the topic ban was placed, then she will certainly run into the same trouble again. We currently have a major problem on American-politics articles with editors who inappropriately dismiss, stonewall, or undermine reliable sources on partisan grounds, and who enable and amplify each other in doing so. Adding Atsme back to the topic area is a mistake unless it's clear that this behavior isn't going to be repeated. Separately, Atsme's reaction to the topic ban was highly, and somewhat indiscriminately, belligerent. She attacked various editors and admins as biased, disruptive, and so on, often without any substantive evidence. I understand that, to some extent, this was a fight-or-flight reaction in the heat of the moment. But if that's the case, then I think it's reasonable to ask for some introspection on Atsme's part. How does she view her reaction to the topic ban now, at a distance? Does she continue to believe that it was motivated by bias and personal malice? Does she feel an apology is owed to any, some, or all of the people whom she attacked? I'm placing myself in this section, rather than the uninvolved-admin section, because I've interacted with Atsme quite a bit. We've often disagreed; we've sometimes agreed; we've generally been friendly. But, like Floquenbeam, these are the kinds of questions I would expect uninvolved admins to ask, as part of their basic due diligence, before entertaining removal of this topic ban (thank you, RegentsPark and Awilley). MastCell Talk 21:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by SoftlavenderIn her responses to administrators here, Atsme is going right back into the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and self-justification that got her the indef topic ban. Sample: "it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits." Sample: bringing up Newyorkbrad who wisely ignored her belligerent baiting demands on his talkpage back then: "I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned." Etc. All this says to me that Atsme has not been rehabilitated, does not understand her own behavioral problems, and will likely continue with battleground attacks and self-justifying recriminations if the topic ban is lifted at this time. I will also note that over the course of her TBan she complained fairly noticeably about the TBan, usually symbolically, indirectly, or covertly, but clearly, including to kindred spirits like Winkelvi, including posting images of a person with their mouth gagged, and so on. I recommend retaining the TBan. Possibly an appeal in another six months will be less belligerent and more self-responsible. Softlavender (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by K.e.coffmanI've been involved in the general topic area, but not in the specific disputes with Atsme. I'm concerned about potentially continued advocacy that may be contrary to the goals of the project, such as inclusivity and tolerance. For example, Atsme's Talk page displayed the following in July of 2018:
Source: permalink. If the appeal is granted, I would like to request Atsme to please refrain from broadcasting intolerant messages in userspace. I'm also concerned about the lack of acknowledgement of past battleground behaviour, as specifically was evident in the first appeal. At the time, I described it as "borderline harassment of the editor who submitted the original request": Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics_2#Statement by K.e.coffman. I see this as more than "stray[ing] from my customary collegial behavior". Perhaps, a one-way interaction ban should be considered in case the appeal is successful. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by DrmiesWhoa, that kid's summer camp was new to me. Atsme, I do not understand how you ever thought that was funny. Those kids, separated from their families, many of them fleeing abuse only to land in more abuse, deserve much better than that. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000I’m generally in favor of second chances, and I really like to see contrite appeals acknowledging past error and plans to avoid those errs in future. Atsme’s appeal was, indeed, contrite and promised avoidance of further problems. It was very well presented. Unfortunately, I believe it was off topic. Atsme was not banned for incivility. MrX gives a brief rundown of the many problems with her past behavior related to AP2 articles. I agree with all of MrX’s observations and haven’t seen any indication that they won’t be repeated. I would feel far more comfortable with an acknowledgement of these problems. And, I fear anyone with such a dim view of sources like WaPo and NYT, while accepting Breitbart, will continue to experience difficulties in AP2. Having said all that, Atsme is a solid contributor in non-AP2 areas. It would be an unfortunate outcome should reinsertion in the AP2 arena degrade her contributions to other areas of the project. O3000 (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by JzGAtsme is a lovely person, but I have encountered exactly the same behaviour since I first encountered her over her edits to G. Edward Griffin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) in 2015, and also in other cases related to her hot-button issues. The tban here is entirely defensible, and any lifting would basically require a voluntary restriction almost as broad, I'm afraid. I think this is just how Atsme is. The good news is that everywhere else, I find she is an absolute delight, endlessly helpful and polite. Guy (Help!) 18:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by JFGAtsme is one of the most level-headed editors I have ever encountered in the DS/AP area. Sure, she tends to be rather argumentative when discussing contentious issues, but isn't that what talk pages are for? I'd much rather deal with the occasional talk page bludgeoning than with a sneaky WP:NINJA editor or a holier-than-thou WP:POVFIGHTER. Atsme has personal bias, as we all do, but she doesn't let her personal opinions get in the way of the overall goal of the encyclopedia. I believe the enforced break may have improved her sense of understanding when she should drop the stick, or in her own words WP:LETITGO. She also has a thick-enough skin to withstand whatever criticism of her actions may further arise. Last but not least, I am looking forward to enjoying her sense of humour again. Support Statement by DarouetI support the lifting of these sanctions. Atsme is not merely a kind editor, something that most have acknowledged here. She is also a superb editor and an example to other editors all across the project: sharp, dedicated, and involved in content creation. Atsme has a very strong record of improving site content. And Atsme appears kind because her tone reflects her generally thoughtful attitude to her editing. Atsme's kindness and corresponding thoughtfulness have not always been reciprocated either by editors or admins at US politics pages, as she has demonstrated. Atsme's concerns in this regard were evidently not considered seriously since she was topic banned just minutes after posting diffs to defend herself. I strongly agree with more or less every aspect of DGG's statement on this case, highlighting that " Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AtsmeComment by ShrikeI think Atsme learned from her mistakes and I support the appeal --Shrike (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by PackMecEngFor what it is worth it certainly seems she has learned her lesson. I think her contributions elsewhere speak for themselves on that issue. Her response here also clearly shows she has seen the issues with past behavior and has learned form them. I must disagree with MrX's point above though, at best discussions on those pages are the same or worse. To say since the removal of Atsme the pages have "improved markedly" is rather perplexing and an unnecessary comment. I also think that many people will have an eye on her in that subject area and be quick to report any infractions should issues arise. In the end Astme is a productive and valuable editor and it would be a shame if she could not help improve all topics. PackMecEng (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
So at this point it looks like just about everyone is in agreement to lift the sanction and keep an eye on things. Sound like a plan? PackMecEng (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by MasemNot really directly involved in any fashion but I've rubbed up against Atsme and other involved editors enough to consider myself "involved", if only that I share Atsme's stance on how we are treating these topics. I've been in the same boat before with Gamergate (where my policy-based discussed on talk pages were considered by some to be disruptive but not determined to be by Arbcom), and in reviewing the diffs from the original AP actions, the worst I see is the tendentious editing facet, but everything else argued then seemed to be an attempt to silence a dissenting voice that is bringing up valid policy-related matters and otherwise not outright disruptive. (I've seen this far too much in other venues outside AP2) As long as Atsme is aware of TE issues and is willing to back off if told they're approaching that point, then there's no reason to not lift the ban. AP2 is going to naturally create animosity between editors, but we have to be careful to vilify those that seem to be contrary but are otherwise fairly arguing. Talk pages are there to work it out. --Masem (t) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Comment by SpringeeI'm very much not an involved editor here. I have no idea what brought Atsme to this point. What I'm seeing is two camps. One that thinks a second chance is warranted, others who are pointing out past issues out of concern they will happen again. It sounds like a fence case. I see four possible futures here. One, consensus says no and it turns out they were right because Atsme would return to the problematic behavior. Two, consensus say yes and Atsme stays clean. Three, consensus says no but Atsme would have stayed clean. Four, consensus says yes and bad behavior resumes. The first two represent the correct decisions given future behavior. They represent the betterment of Wikipedia. The fourth is unfortunate but also reversible. The third is the problem. In the third case the decision is effectively a punishment rather than protecting the encyclopedia. What is the harm in giving the benefit of the doubt in a fence case? If the Tban is lifted and problems return are people concerned that Atsme's behavior won't be scrutinized or an admin would be more than willing to restore the ban? If lifting the ban turns out to be the wrong choice it can be reversed, edits undone. But if it's the right choice, but not the consensus decision, then the Tban is a punishment for past sins rather than a protection. Both the editor and encyclopedia suffer for it. For what it's worth, and I only know what people are saying here, I think she should be given the benefit of doubt and lift the tban. It can always be restored. Springee (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by GRubanSupport per everyone and their brother. She's dedicated, experienced, energetic, kind, and an all around good Joe. Summer camp, well, if everyone who's ever made an unsuccessful attempt to lighten a terrible situation with a joke were excluded, we wouldn't have any humanity left. To err is human, to forgive is … among other things, what this noticeboard is for. --GRuban (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
References Comment by My very best wishesI think a successful appeal should generally include two parts:
Comment by Petrarchan47I see no reason that the topic ban should not be lifted and good faith assumed. If Atsme is pulling our legs, or for some reason goes off the deep end, Wikipedians will deal with it in the moment. I see no harm in letting Atsme's future actions speak for themselves, and I see no good arguments presented to convince me otherwise. Atsme's topic ban was meant to teach a lesson, and not, one would hope, to remain indefinitely in order to silence an editor who steers articles toward NPOV in Wikipedia's arguably left-leaning atmosphere. Obviously, any bias has a profoundly detrimental effect on the reputation of the encyclopedia. DGG points to this issue: the need for editors who speak outside of the echo chamber. Indeed these editors should be embraced if NPOV is treasured as it should be. I have not worked alongside Atsme on any political articles but I wonder from the response to the border wall cartoon if she is viewed by some as not anti-Trump enough, or seen as problematic for not adhering to a 'house bias'. petrarchan47คุก 23:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by TryptofishI've been wavering for days about whether or not I should say anything at all. But I've decided that I want to say that GoldenRing's most recent comment is correct. I think you should grant the appeal, and of course include very specific language about not backsliding and so forth. And if there is backsliding, then we will be back here swiftly, with decisive results. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC) Comment by PawnkingthreeJust wanted to say I agree entirely with Mastcell. Someone who regards the New York Times and the Washington Post as leftist propaganda and not reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes should not be editing in this topic area. Atme’s refusal to answer Mastcell’s straightforward question is very revealing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Atsme
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Smeagol 17
Not an AE matter; moved to WP:ANI. Sandstein 23:18, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Smeagol 17
Discussion concerning Smeagol 17Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Smeagol 17I corrected wrong tense and accepted phrasing in the article, this was reverted without explanation. I used my once per day revert with explanation. What is a problem?Smeagol 17 (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Mr rnddudeThe first two "revert 1"'s are ... in what world is copy-editing (first one) and expanding the sentence (second one) considered to be "reverting"? As to the third "revert 1" diff, yes I think that actually constitutes a "first revert". Mr rnddude (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by FitzcarmalanThree things:
Statement by (next involved editor)Statement by (next involved editor)Result concerning Smeagol 17
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Sangdeboeuf
Self-reverted on request here. Closing with no action. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sangdeboeuf
12:40, 2 December 2018 - notified of AP2.
Page is under AP2, not ARBPIA. Furthermore the content in question (for Trump and Omar) regards accusations of antisemitism towards US Jews, not Israel - making the relation to the conflict, even broadly, a stretch. Furthermore, the WP:ARBPIA3#General Prohibition applies only to
Discussion concerning SangdeboeufStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SangdeboeufWP:A/I/PIA states that it applies to "any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". The non-autoconfirmed user that I reverted had removed "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" from a section heading; the first sentence under the heading read, "During her time in the Minnesota legislature, Omar was critical of the Israeli government and opposed a law intended to restrict the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement." I'm a bit mystified as to how this could be construed as unrelated to the Arab–Israeli conflict. I admit that I didn't read the edit notice carefully enough; I assumed it was there because of the Israel–Palestine issue. I could have waited for the edit to be reviewed under WP:ECP, but I wasn't sure the reviewer would notice the general prohibition on edits related to Israel–Palestine. If uninvolved admins believe this was a breach of 1RR, I will happily self-revert. Since Doug Weller added 1RR here, perhaps they could clarify whether it supersedes the older exemption for reverts to enforce the 30/500 prohibition as mentioned here? Icewhiz apparently thinks my talk page contributions are disruptive based on their comments above, which is nonsense, unless having a lot to say on the talk page is a sanctionable offense. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesThe edit by Sangdeboeuf was made in a section of the page entitled "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" [18]. So, it can be reasonably viewed as covered by WP:ARBPIA. And WP:ARBPIA does tell "any pages and edits". Arbcom is debating this right now - see here. So, I have to agree with Sangdeboeuf: this is not a 1RR violation. Saying that, I do not agree with his/her edit, but that belongs to content disagreements. My very best wishes (talk) 00:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000To editor ToniBallioni: Debate between US politicians, especially within the US Congress, about the Israel-Palestinian conflict is very much part of that conflict. It isn't just people just voicing opinions either, because the US is a party to the conflict and events at home have a real effect on the progress of the conflict. There are countless reliable sources that treat this relationship in depth. So I believe you are mistaken. Zerotalk 03:38, 24 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Sangdeboeuf
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dlthewave
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sanctions being appealed
- DiscussionLog
- Logged warning by Sandstein
- Deletion of User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles by Goldenring
- Administrators imposing the sanctions
Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of those administrators
Statement by Dlthewave
- I feel that the closing statement
"Springee, Trekphiler, RAF910 and Dlthewave are warned not to misuse Wikipedia as a forum for polemic statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities."
, which appears to be copy-and-pasted from WP:POLEMIC, is not an accurate assessment of consensus among the admins who participated in the discussion. Among other things, it implies that all four editors are equally at fault, which does not appear to be what the admins intended in their support for a logged warning. Although Goldenring did delete a page in my userspace under WP:POLEMIC, there was no discussion of my "attacking" or "vilifying" anyone and one admin even stated"Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion."
There was no proposal to issue a logged warning to Dlthewave. (As a sidenote, I also feel that issuing a polemic warning to the other three involved editors instead of a warning related to talk page conduct was entirely out of left field, but that is something for them to address in their own appeals if they choose to pursue them.) - I feel that Goldenring's deletion of a page in my userspace, User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles, has a chilling effect on my ability to document and share what I view as a long-term pattern in the gun control/gun crime topic area. This documentation plays an essential role in addressing current problems that are, in my opinion, a continuation of that pattern. My intention is to demonstrate a pattern and not to attack the individual editors who have been involved in that pattern. This removal is especially concerning when the "opposing" attacks and accusations which I documented are allowed to remain in full view at WP:Firearms and other talk pages. I would be open to discussing ways to do this that would not be viewed as an attack page, since similar pages maintained by other editors have passed MfD.
- Although this deletion may have been within Goldenring's editorial discretion, I would like it to be reviewed by other admins and preferably discussed by the community at Miscellany for Deletion. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
After rereading User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, I agree with the appellant that the page was not (quite) a violation of WP:POLEMIC because it did not name editors and did not make allegations of misconduct, except as implied in the title ("whitewashing"), but that alone probably doesn't merit a warning. Because that page was the reason for my warning, I am striking it and recommend that GoldenRing (talk · contribs) undelete the page. A case can perhaps be made for its deletion on grounds of copyright / attribution, but that's a matter for the deletion process. Sandstein 18:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Per my comment here, I've also withdrawn the warning with respect to Springee. Clearly I should have read the enforcement request more carefully; sorry for that. I think that we should be more careful in the future as to whether or not to entertain enforcement requests directed at multiple editors. Sandstein 22:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- In response to Bishonen, GoldenRing is correct that an action that has been labeled as an AE action may only be reviewed by way of the process described at WP:AC/DS#Appeals, that is, here at AE, or at AN or ARCA – but not at DRV. Bishonen, I recommend that you undo your temporary restoration of the page for the purpose of the DRV, or you may be desysopped for undoing an AE action out of process, as described at WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators. Any admin who acts on the currently ongoing DRV by overturning the deletion may likewise be desysopped. Sandstein 15:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
I'm clearly an involved editor. As I said before I think Dlthewave has a very strong POV on this topic and I frequently disagree with them. However, when push comes to shove, I don't think on good faith they viewed the page as a POLMIC. For what it's worth, I would support reverting Dlthewave's warning. Springee (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by GoldenRing
I disagree with Sandstein above and stand by this action. Dlthewave has stated right here that the purpose of this page is to document long-term problematic editing and policy is clear that such material is allowed only for dispute resolution and when used in a timely manner. I don't see the practical difference between, "so-and-so said this" (which the appellant seems to admit would be disallowed) and "someone said this and here's a link showing who it was" which is what they've actually done. GoldenRing (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: I'm not sure why you've suggested deletion review here. AE actions cannot be overturned at deletion review, only at AE, AN or ARCA. Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action? GoldenRing (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Dlthewave: I will reiterate here what I've said on the deletion review: if you wish to use this material for valid dispute resolution (probably either an ANI or arbitration case request) and can outline a reasonable timeline for doing so (either on-wiki or privately by email), then I will self-revert my enforcement action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to add, for what it's worth at this point, that I agree a formal warning to Dlthewave was not warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please note that I have requested clarification from the arbitration committee regarding my deletion at WP:ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Marginally involved. I just found out about the removal of DLThewave's excellent summary of the challenges faced to bring firearms into compliance with WP:N including the way that a wikiproject has tried to present their MOS suggestions as policy. I've said as much at another venue, but this is definitely not a violation of WP:POLEMIC and should be undeleted for the valuable resource it is. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dlthewave
- The matter of the deletion itself should be deferred to WP:DRV as that venue is much better equipped for such reviews. Whether or not the action itself was appropriate should be discussed here or in a more general manner at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee (where Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions redirects). — Godsy (TALKCONT) 10:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Dlthewave
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I commented in the initial thread, so I'm not sure whether my response should appear in this section, or above with GoldenRing's and Sandstein's. The deletion of Dlthewave's userspace subpage was arguably appropriate under WP:POLEMIC, and within reasonable admin discretion on GoldenRing's part. While I'm not sure I would have done the same, I'm comfortable leaving the page deleted. That said, I don't think a formal warning to Dlthewave is warranted; there wasn't really any support for such a warning amongst uninvolved admins in the previous thread, and it seems like overkill. The proper response to a potentially polemical userspace subpage is to delete it, which has been done. There wasn't any convincing evidence of a pattern of behavior warranting a logged warning on Dlthewave's part, at least not that I saw.
Regarding the logged warnings, I do take Springee's point that they perhaps paint the remaining 3 editors with an overly broad brush. There are clearly gradations of concerning behavior, with Springee on the mild end and Trekphiler/RAF910 showing a much more sustained and problematic battleground attitude. I'll leave it up to other admins whether we should modify the warning to exclude Springee, but it is worth considering while we're here. MastCell Talk 21:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hmm. This is definitely a confusing situation. Reading the deleted page, it does seem borderline WP:POLEMIC so, perhaps, GoldenRing was right in deleting it. But, Dlthewave brings up a good point. If they do plan on making a future case then how else can they keep a record of the edits they see as forming a pattern? They could do it off-wiki of course, but isn't it better to be open about one's activities? While the deletion was within admin discretion perhaps, in cases of this nature, it is better to leave them as is with a note to the editor that they can't leave it sticking around for too long. Imo, the warning should be withdrawn. --regentspark (comment) 00:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about deleting the whitewashing essay; I can't seem to make up my mind. Suggest dlthewave take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review. An admin should be asked to temporarily undelete the page for purposes of discussion as soon as the DR is opened. But I don't have any trouble agreeing with Sandstein, Springee, MastCell, and Regentspark that dlthewave's warning should be withdrawn and struck from the log, and Sandstein has already done so. Bishonen | talk 01:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Dlthewave:, I've temporarily undeleted your page for the deletion review. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
- Your deletion can't be overturned at Deletion review, GoldenRing? Are you sure? In that case, obviously I suggested it because I didn't know any better. A bit of bad luck that apparently nobody who did know saw my suggestion for Deletion review here at AE, some 20 hours before Dlthewave actually opened the deletion review. I'm not sure what should be the next step, considering there is quite a lot of discussion at the review already, and some disagreement about how to proceed. But whatever action is taken, rest assured I won't feel "undermined" by it, as somebody suggested there. I'm personally fine with whatever, although I want to apologize to Dlthewave for potentially complicating his situation. As for "Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action?", no, I haven't. If you're referring to my temporary undeletion of the page, for the deletion review only and with the front page covered by a template, per the instructions here, I can only ask you not to be so silly. If you're talking about my giving Dlthewave bad advice, well, I've explained how that came about (=ignorance on my part). Bishonen | talk 12:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC).
- What an absolute joy you are to work with, Sandstein. It's a wonder more admins don't flock to help out at AE, where honest mistakes get met with immediate threats of desysopping. I do want to point out that there's a pretty clear consensus at DRV that the page doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC. @GoldenRing:, do I understand correctly that you are not going to recognize that consensus because it is being discussed on the Wrong Page(TM)? If this is the case, then I suppose we should tell everyone at DRV their opinions are not wanted there, re-delete the page, and then have the exact same discussion here. Or alternately, GR could rescind the deletion.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I not only agree that restoring the page for deletion review is not an abuse of process, but that deleting the page via AE would be an abuse of process. The way to remove userspace essays that are contrary to policy is MfD., and review of decisions there is at Deletion Review. DGG ( talk ) 06:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Highpeaks35
I've blocked for 1 week as an AE action per BMK's diffs of personal attacks within the conflict area. Hopefully this time away from the project will also help them consider the other concerns that have been raised here. If it continues after the block expires, a new AE report can be considered. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Highpeaks35
I'll keep this as brief as possible. Highpeaks35 has been around just over a year, and has made 7000-odd mostly gnome-ish edits, to articles broadly associated with the history and culture of South Asia. Frequently, though presented as minor corrections, these edits have NPOV implications (they may or may not be violations of NPOV, but they do alter the POV of an article); examples include the following (diff, diff, diff). There are a number of others, among which the unifying pattern is a tendency to add "Indian", "Indian subcontinent", or "Hindu", as descriptors for specific objects and customs. This, in and of itself, is concerning, as it appears to be subtle POV-pushing concealed by laconic and misleading edit-summaries. However, Highpeaks has also been in several conflicts, prominently with Fowler&fowler, many of which derive from the type of edits described above, including at Talk:India (and its archives, [19] and [20]), Talk:Indus_Valley_Civilisation, and Talk:Pilaf. In each case, again, Highpeaks appears to be attempting to portray specific cultural heritage as "Indian" (such as at the article about Pilaf), or alternatively to be advancing the argument that bits of history favorable to "Hindus" have been left out (at the article about India). Furthermore, in many of these situations, Highpeaks has veered into original research (diff (see their conversatin with SmokeyJoe), diff (no source was provided to back this up)). He has portrayed scholarly consensus as supporting his view when it obviously didn't (diff). He has also engaged in personal attacks (diff, diff), which he has refused to strike, displaying while doing so a certain inability to understand the underlying issues (diff). In sum, Highpeaks has for several months now demonstrated an inability to use sources with the rigor necessary for a contentious topic, and an inability to work collaboratively, which required administrative intervention. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
notified in March 2018.
Discussion concerning Highpeaks35Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Highpeaks35I made my position clear, FF called my work “Hindu garbage.” Used “skin tone” where skin had no impact on the conversation. I am hurt and saddened that those language and content is being taken lightly from this user. This whole issue comes up when FF decides to come to my talk page, which I informed him not to do. I am not comfortable with him on my talk page, as his language and tone is not acceptable to me. He is usually degrading and boarderline insulting almost always (this is not just me, he has done it with other editors). (Highpeaks35 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC)) Statement by Beyond My KenUser:Highpeaks35 to User:Fowler&fowler on the former's talk page:
This is the same discussion referenced above. [22] Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Fowler&fowlerI became aware of Highpeaks35 on 1 January 2019, when, upon returning to Wikipedia after a long vacation, I discovered he had made a large number of unwarranted edits in the FA India. The following day, he made a post on my user talk page, which seemed to be taunting me. Said he, "Wait... Above you stated: "I will no longer be working on India-related topics." Change of heart? Missing edit-warring on India related topics with you Eurocentric view?" (See diff.) Although I did think it was odd that a total stranger was being so familiar, I did not respond. Meanwhile, Highpeaks had also just added many images to India (See diff) Upon being challenged, he created sections in Talk:India, proposing in each section different images for inclusion in the article. (See diff) In particular, in the "Clothing" section there seemed to be gratuitous use of "Hindu," (or implication of Hindu) in the description of attire that had been introduced into India in medieval times by Muslims from Central Asia. I said so in my reply, using the expression "Hindu garbage," which I regretted later, to mean irrelevant, somewhat provocative, use of "Hindu" to assert cultural ownership of apparel that by bragging rights belonged to the Muslims of India, especially an India in which the relations between Hindus and Muslims have been fraught. (See diff.) Accusing me of racism, Highpeaks35 took me to ANI, where I apologized; see here) Highpeaks has since been feigning feeling hurt, assuming victimhood, but also insulting me across WP pages (see one example). Ultimately though, and more insidiously, Highpeaks35 has continued to make his POV edits of Hindu-, or Hindu-nationalist, or Hindutva, or Indian-nationalist promotion. One manner in which he has done this is to change "South Asia," "Pakistan," "Sri Lanka," or "Nepal" to "Indian subcontinent." (There are over 400 such edits with edit summary, "improve accuracy," in several hundred WP pages (see here) The expression "Indian subcontinent," as old WP India hands will know, is preferred by many India-POV editors, for it puts the brand of India on all the countries in India's neighborhood. Fixing these pages will take time. Highpeaks35 obviously needs some kind of restriction. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by SitushI don't have much time for this place at the moment but there is definitely something odd going on with Highpeaks35, aside from the extreme and unwarranted attacks noted above which they seem to be convinced do not need to be retracted. They have argued in this thread that this magazine article explains the justification for preferring the use of the phrase Indian subcontinent over other uses but, as I indicated in the thread, that replacement is often relatively imprecise and also point-y. I've not been active for considerable periods when they have been making changes, and a lot of their changes have been to aspects of Indian culture (such as foodstuffs) where I generally have little involvement, but I have a strong gut feeling that this all forms a part of some sort of Hindu nationalist agenda. I would have to trawl through an awful lot of my edits to find other examples of their inappropriate references to Indian subcontinent but they do exist. - Sitush (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Highpeaks35
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Tatzref
No action taken (without prejudice to another admin taking action). Volunteer Marek is topic-banned for six months. François Robere is blocked for a week by TonyBallioni. Sandstein 07:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Tatzref
While this report discusses content - this is not a content dispute. Content is produced here to prove plagiarism of a dubious SPS that resulted in the introduction of a hoax to an article:
17:23, 18 May 2018 alerted
Clarified use of 2017 source in point 2. In regards to Plagiarism - the text itself is an obvious paraphrase of Paul without attribution to Paul, Some 407(of 723) & 1557(of 3002) chars in the edits are are outright copies of Paul's citations (down to order, page numbers, and style) - this is not by chance, Tatzref cited material not required (even off-topic) to content he actually added to the article. When basing work off of a source (Paul), WP:PLAGIARISM requires attribution (to Paul). See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for full analysis.Icewhiz (talk) 06:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TatzrefStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TatzrefSince so many allegations have been leveled and I require time time to look and address at each carefully (I do not have the luxury of spending the better part of my day editing Wikipedia), I will be responding to the diffs piecemeal, after which I will provide a general wrap-up statement. The first installment deals with #10 -- allegedly part of my overall strategy to introduce a "hoax" into an article. Wikipedia defines "hoax" as "a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth." Please be mindful that the allegations impute to me all sorts of devious motivation. Therefore, if any allegation is manifestly untrue, I believe it is appropriate for me to comment on the possible motivation for it having been put forward.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC) TIMING AND EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE REQUESTOn February 24, 2019, User Yaniv (יניב הורון) was blocked indefinitely from editing "for Tendentious editing across multiple topic areas and time frames” (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F&oldid=884873194). Tatzref (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC) This occurred after it came to the attention of the administrator that Yaniv had deleted text of mine as being allegedly “antisemitic vandalism.” This was deemed to be a “personal attack” and “a chilling tactic designed to stifle opposition, as documented above, and is textbook tendentious editing.” The following is the text in question, found in the article “History of the Jews in Poland” -- under the heading “Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property.”
DIFFS5. Re: “16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref.” Allegedly, this is part and parcel of my “hoax” agenda.
References
Statement by RosceleseI don't do a lot of editing in this topic area and I'll defer to people who do, but my previous encounters with Tatzref led me to strongly suspect socking or off-wiki coordination as detailed here, due in large part to the account's singleminded crusade towards adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by VMOk. First, this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked by User:TonyBallioni. Icewhiz seems to want to "even the score". In regard to his points, one by one;
All I got time for right now. Maybe there's something bad in the rest of the diffs. But the first 8 seems to be spurious and quite false in their presentations. And regarding Roscelese point - yes, there does appear to be some similarity between Tatzref and GGB and prolly someone should file a check user. The similarity could just be due to the nature of the topic and the popularity of some of the sources among the Canadian Polish diaspora. But yeah, it should be checked.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Re #5 - the quotes from EverGreen and Malik are not even about the text that Icewhiz includes in his diff! His diffs are about Tatzref adding 'slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church" to the article, and Icewhiz pretends like this is some kind of horrid thing do add (and it's in the sources) Re #6 - No, it looks like Taztref just used sources that Mark Paul used. Re #7 - what's your point? "There are also other words in the source which were not used so that's BAD!!!!" ??? Re #9 - what in the world are you talking about? What are you even referencing? Your quote does not appear anywhere on this page. Re #11 - "this is all very bad" LOL. Are you just being lazy? I think your whole statement is "all very bad". Very very very very very bad. Super bad. If you're gonna say "it's bad" you need to explain WHY. Dude, you're just throwing random mud, muddy, confusing mud which is hard to understand, and engaging in theatrics about how "bad" something is, hoping that something will stick, but don't actually support any of your assertion. Look, it's not a secret that both you and Icewhiz, along with the recently indef'd Yanniv [40] (freakin' a!!! that list of overlap is long!!! Might want to be more subtle in the future), had frequent disputes with Tatzref. Since one of your tag team got indef'd, you and Icewhiz are now trying to "level the odds" by throwing together a spurious WP:AE report which is really nothing more than a content dispute.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Actually Icewhiz's #11 is ridiculous. He claims it's a "HOAX" and a "libel" but if you actually read what he's complaining about it's all about the fact that there are OTHER sources which address DIFFERENT details which Taztref didn't include. Why not just add these others sources and details? Did Tatzref try to remove them or something? No? Then this is just silly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC) @Admins - Francois Robere says that admins have been negligent in "protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism". It's clear that by "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism" he means User:GizzyCatBella. This is WP:ASPERSIONS and a pretty serious accusations. But FR provides ZERO evidence to support it. Let's see the diffs (and I mean actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations) of GCB engaging in ANY kind of "vandalism", ethnically motivated or otherwise. Or ethnic prejudice. If he can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban, just like Yanniv got from User:TonyBallioni, because it's exactly the same thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Sandstein writes: " In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked" - Yanniv did indeed get recently indef blocked. Since User:TonyBallioni was the one who did the blocking, and since he has commented here, I saw o reason to provide a diff for this very obvious facts. Icewhiz was the one who started the relevant edit wars [41] [42], Yanniv then reverted back to Icewhiz's version with a disruptive edit summary that got him blocked, Icewhiz then tried to intervene on behalf of Yanniv, and against Tatzref on Yanniv's talk page with Tony [43]. Again, since Tony was involved in all of this, there was no need to provide "diffs" as he was already aware. If my comment was problematic Tony, not Sandstein would be the one to make that call. Sandstein then writes: "and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team" - yes, I made that accusation, but I *did* provide evidence. Here it is again [44]. The three editors have edited 500 articles and talk pages together. Most of them obscure. For a combined 10849 edits. Ten thousand. Eight hundred. Forty. Nine. In about a year. A Grand Tatnum's worth of editing together. AND out of that 500, 200 are articles/talk pages with edit made within 24 hours of each other. 100 of them involved articles/talk pages with edits made within 3 hours of each other. That means these edits are either reverting together, sequentially, or supporting quickly each other in talk page discussions. Note that I did NOT accuse Icewhiz etc. of off-wiki coordination. That's almost impossible to show. But the evidence of tag-team behavior is right there. You can dispute the strength of that evidence. But you cannot claim that, contra Sandstein, it was not provided. Sandstein then writes: "among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements" - speaking of unbacked accusations! *Which* statements? I'm disputing the accuracy of Icewhiz's diffs. I think they don't show what he claims they show. It's gonna be "confrontative", there's just no other way to do it. Sandstein then writes: "that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request." - oh this one is complete bullshit. I even freaking numbered my statements so that'd it be easier to see which specific claim of Icewhiz's it addressed. If Icewhiz writes "1) something something something" and I write "1) but no something something something" then that has a pretty freaking obvious "bearing" on the subject of this enforcement. This is... just.... uh, completely false. And seriously. If my comment was indeed problematic, the proper response would be to ask me to strike it. Barring that, it would be to impose a sanction on me commenting on WP:AE. But to pull a six month topic ban out of thin air - even though NONE of my edits to actual articles have been brought into question - ??? Yeah, that's insane.Volunteer Marek (talk) @Roscelese, Volunteer Marek, and TonyBallioni:
Statement by François Robere@Volunteer Marek: I don't know what Icewhiz's motives are and I don't care - much could be said about your motives as well - as the report itself is justified. Tatzref's SPA nature was in question from their very first edit, and Roscelese wasn't wrong adding them to an SPI request I filed some time ago regarding another user.
It took me the better part of an hour and a half going through this. I second Icewhiz's findings, and support an indefinite ban on Tatzref from all topics related to Jews, Judaism and Jewish history, along with a warning against using non-RS for any purpose. I would also like to note, again, that our admins have been consistently negligent in protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism. The fact that Bella is still allowed to comment anywhere even vaguely related to Jews and Jewish history, after having committed more egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity than Tatzref ever has, is a sign of their failure. François Robere (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by PiotrusZeroth. Responding to ping by Francois above and making a full statement. First, regarding the request itself, I've recently suggested at talk of one of the articles to Tatzref to add quotations to some of his claims. TBH, I don't see much serious problems here - this request should be put on hold until relevant quotations are added, or not. With WP:OFFLINE in mind, unless another editor actually bothers to analyze sources used and provide relevant quotations showing that Tatzref additions are hoaxes, all we have going on here is a seemingly baseless accusation that some other editors 'don't think Tatzref is representing sources correctly'. Perhaps he is not, hard to say without sources, but WP:AFG suggests we should not be making such claims without sources / analysis to the contrary, and so far I haven't seen much of those, so.... PS. Francois said " Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest." While the latter is true (I can't verify it, offline sources) I never said that "sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim". Where did I say that?? If I cannot verify them how can I know whether they support it or not??? Francois makes no diff in his claim of what I said, and I find it rather worrisome that words are being put in my mouth that I do not recall saying. The only comment I can think of that is relevant from recent days is [46] and what I say there should be pretty clear (that I am AGFing Tatzref additions, but I ask him to add quotations if possible to ease verification). Second, it is a bit strange, to say the least, to see a report on two editors start by two other editors getting banned/restricted. It is nice to see occasionally WP:NPA being taken seriously (I don't hang around AE and such these days much, few years ago NPA was seen as a joke, if things are finally changing in that regard, it is overall a good thing). Third. As much as I support enforcing NPA and such, I want to caution Sandstein to take a bit more time before swinging ban hammer and making block and ban decisions. I note that Tony has for example asked others whether such an action he intends to take is appropriate. That's commendable restrain. But Sandstein has topic banned VM instantly. I have two issues with that. First, few months ago Sanstein topic banned User:Poeticbent, the most prolific editor in the Polish-Jewish topics, creator of many DYKs and GAs, for what he perceived as a (single) personal attack on Icehwiz (see User_talk:Poeticbent/Archive_16#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction). Offended, Poeticbent has quit Wikipeia and has not edited even since his t-ban expired months ago. Why did Sandstein issue an area topic ban for the most prolific content creator in that area instead of a civility/discussion-related restriction? I don't know, but in the hindsight it is clear IMHO that it was the wrong restriction, and it has led to a loss of a valuable editor. I realize this discussion is not a place to re-assess an old AE decision, but my point is that something similar may be happening here right now. Sandstein saw something he perceived as a personal attack, and without consulting others, decided to topic ban yet another editor for a perceived personal attack instead of considering a civility type of restriction (like a topic ban from discussion pages of EE articles, or a warning that another NPA in that area will result in a stricter measure). A half a year topic ban from an entire content area for a single unrelated NPA in AE is something I feel other admins should at the very least have to review and consult. Last but not least, I thought that at AE and such, the standards for NPA and such were somewhat lower, to reduce any chilling effects people may have in discussing other editors. While VM comment uses perhaps rather direct and strong language, I do not think that suggesting a connection between a ban of another editor and a motivation to criticize yet another editor here is some far fetched personal attack that should not be considered. I am not saying I agree with VM assessment of Icehwiz motivations, but it a statement of fact to say that 1) Yanniv (errr, ניב הורון ? - same nick? There is no User:Yanniv....) reverted Tatzref edits, VM and Icehwiz got involved in a related small edit war at History of Polish Jews, perhaps some other pages - I am not monitoring this in detail 2) Yanniv got banned by TB 3) Tatzref posted a message critical of Icehwiz to several talk pages [47], [48], [49] under heading of 'Icewhiz's defamatory allegations' or similar. 4) Icehwiz opens an AE against Tatzref. I do not think this AE request is a simple as a 'payback report', but again, there is a sort connection between ניב הורון 's block and this AE. I'd leave to the reviewing admins to judge if the connection is relevant here, and if so, what are the motivations for it. But to topic ban another editor for making an (bad-faithed, fair enough) argument that such a connection exists is IMHO rather unfair (6 months?), a wrong tool (civility restriction would be better suited than a topic ban) and finally, a chilling effect (WP:BOOMERANG is all good, but there's a point we can seriously scare people from posting anything in AE if we are too ban-hammer happy on comments like that). Fourth. If anything I said above would be considered a personal attack, or any related form of offence, and would lead 'someone' to consider banning or blocking me, please give me a chance to WP:REFACTOR any possibly offensive content before hammering me. TIA. Fifth, and going back to the two main editors in this AE. I respect Icehwiz for inserting a valued POV into many related discussions, but I'd caution him to try to reduce his presence in AE. While it is my subjective view, perhaps, all AE incidents in the last two years two years I can recall reading seem to involve him. At the very least, this must be stressful. Perhaps a change of attitude of sorts may be healthy? I used find myself at AE quite often a decade ago or so. A change of my attitude to wiki and adoption of more friendly and forgiving attitude has, I think, worked out quite well for me. It is a good reminder to all that other editors here are generally also trying to help, and that a good way of settling our differences does not have to involve calling admins for help and receiving a few semi-random bans on occasion, but instead, remembering WP:AGF and trying to meet other editors half-way. See also my essays at User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom for my thoughts on related issues. Reading those essays is probably going to be less stressful than reading this thread :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Comment to K.e.coffman note below: there is no denying that Tatzref is not neutral (and that's ok per WP:NPOV). I'd suggest however staying away from Godwin's law. In your comment about your google search you mention Stormfront, that could lead some readers to think there is a connection ("these audiences") between the respectable Polish-American NGO ([50]), and neo-Nazis. I don't think that's fair comparison. And I don't even see Stormfront in the hits I get after clicking your link, but I see that quote being used in NYBooks book review... Anyway, Tazref is not citing Paul these days. And if he cites reputable scholars that Paul cites as well, that's shouldn't be an issue - if he is using WP:RS, that's the end of the story. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC) Statement by K.e.coffman (Tatzref)On the point of SPI, I don't think it would be helpful as it's unlikely that GCB and Tatzref are the same people. While there are similarities (both accounts promoted and defended KPK & Mark Paul), the editing styles are too different. Mutual connection to KPK is far more likely. On the original report, I believe it has merit. I've participated in the related disputes and had a chance to observe Tatzref's editing from the beginning. This is not a content dispute, but an on-going and problematic pattern of advocacy-based editing and promotion of fringe theories.
In summary, I find Tatzref's editing to be contrary to Wikipedia's goals. His SPA contributions ([55]) advance fringe theories by using cherry-picked materials while promoting dubious publications. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesSimply, as a matter of procedures, what should happen here? First, this thread needs to be closed. Second, if it will be closed with the 6 month topic ban for VM, and VM disagrees, he needs to discuss this matter politely and reasonably with the blocking admin. If this does not result in anything, and VM disagree, he then should make an appeal on AE. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
Tatzref. Icewhiz was quite correct in arguing that, having read the sources, you omitted that the Alfonse pimp pogrom was a Jew on Jew matter. A pogrom, we all assume, is almost invariably an inter-ethnic form of violence, and omitting this crucial fact of its 'infra-ethnic' character, you left the impression Jews may have been attacking (Catholic) Poles, whatever your intent. On the other hand, Icewhiz had a simple option, rather than deleting this apposite datum: merely tweaking it to clarify it was an infra-Jewish outbreak of violence (and probably impelled by a desire to rid their community of practices which played into the hands of anti-Semites). It looks as though, rather than carefully assaying and reporting the facts neutrally, both of you are slanting the data, by different forms of omission.Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by MyMoloboaccountWhile I am not involved in this particular dispute I am know about this event and can state with 100% certainity that one of the claims by Icewhiz is wrong according to scholarly sources. According to Icewhiz in point 10 “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise" The point raised by Icewhiz about this being inter-Jewish conflict is definitely wrong. All the scholarly source I read on this subject write that while it started as conflict between Jewish groups it later involved Polish workers and impoverished members of the society.There is also an additional layer to this as from what I remember in later stage of the violence converts to Catholicism from Judaism were targeted by Jewish rioters-I will have to dig the sources aboutthis particular part of the event but there was definitely a lot of this in the press published from what I recall. In any case Icewhiz now has admitted that it wasn't solely inter-Jewish violence according to the sources on the discussion page for the articlePolish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere., so I believe it would be appropriate for him to remove this particular accussation and point against Tatzref. Lastly the ban on VM seems terribly excessive and unproductive-really not in line with anything VM said here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC) Result concerning Tatzref
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GiantSnowman
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning GiantSnowman
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- UninvitedCompany (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- GiantSnowman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman#GiantSnowman admonished and placed under review - to wit, "[GiantSnowman] may not block an editor without first using at least three escalating messages and template warnings"
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- The February 26, 2019 block of 5.151.172.213 for 48 hours with an explanation of "Block evasion"
- The February 15, 2019 block of 124.62.79.115 for 48 hours with an explanation of "Vandalism-only account"
Reviewing the contributions for 124.62.79.115, it does not appear to me that this user is engaging only in vandalism. There appears to be a dispute regarding content and sourcing, and an allegation that some material added is a hoax. There has been little dialogue with this user and it is unclear to me whether the underlying problem is that the user is contributing inaccurate material in good faith, is contributing accurate material that lacks sources, or is deliberately perpetrating a hoax. In any case, this is not a vandalism-only account, and the three esacalating warnings required by the arbitration remedy were not placed.
Reviewing the contributions for 5.151.172.213, this user is not engaging in vandalism. Rather, this user is also in a content dispute with GiantSnowman. The talk page for this user is blank, and I cannot find any explanation for the block beyond that in the block log. I surmise that the basis for the block is that the IP may be a sock of Woking123 (talk · contribs) (see Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Woking123 but note that GiantSnowman is the only contributor), but the evidence for this is far from conclusive, and the IP may well be another editor at a nearby location who shares (unsurprisingly) the same geographically-limited interests. In any event, this block is not based on vandalism, and the three escalating warnings required by the arbitration remedy were not placed.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
None
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
N/A, not a discretionary sanctions request
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
For background, the block of 5.151.172.213 appears to be a continuation of a dispute over sourcing that started in 2016. See User talk:Woking123. GiantSnowman placed escalating blocks related to the sourcing dispute, and Woking123 evaded them, and has been indefblocked for socking. The problem however is that the initial blocks that led to the socking do not appear to be well-justified by blocking policy, both because the additions of unsourced material appear to be minor and in good faith, and because the articles involved are ones where GiantSnowman is (and was) a primary editor.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GiantSnowman&diff=885589888&oldid=885540349
Discussion concerning GiantSnowman
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Legacypac
My prior research suggested that GiantSnowman blocks users as socks of this one editor who made but a handful of edits several years ago. Users and IPs are blocked whenever anyone goes near a group of pages. There is no SPI case for this, just an accumulation of blocked IPs and registered users. I came to the conclusion there is but the weakest of connection between these users and he was abusing the block button. It seems highly unlikely that the alleged sockmaster would pursue such a minor issue for years on a few football pages. A clearcut ignoring of his restriction, doing exactly what lead to the whole ArbComm case.
@Tony-he has a block button as an Admin. He used it to block an alleged sock of a user he as blocked alleged socks of before. If this is really the same user he violated his restrictions with a consecutive block. If it is not a sock he violated his restrictions with a warningless block. That it took several days to notice should not mean he will not block someone else on the same basis tomorrow. Only a block of GS or removal of his block button will stop the ongoing disruption by a rouge admin. Legacypac (talk) 04:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
If blocking an Admin does not stop him from imposing blocks that is just wrong. If after a multi week ArbComm case we learn the authorized sanctions are unworkable that is just wrong. GS has no problem blocking random editors for very little or no reason. The incredible leeway being extended here to let him keep a clean block log is NOT how non-Admins are treated. We are blocked first, questions maybe asked later. Legacypac (talk) 12:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @User:Jayron32 your position goes exactly against the ArbCommdiscussion here [57]. If you don't like the decision take it up with ArbComm but if you refuse to follow the decision you may face your own ArbComm case. The blocking of alleged Socks of his favourite punching bag was what lead to these restrictions, yet he went right back to blocking the alleged same user again. This is a bright line violation and the mandated remedy is a block. Legacypac (talk) 17:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Tgeorgescu
I have no opinion upon whether the blocks are right. Anyway, if GS suspects sockpuppetry and the users engage in WP:TE or vandalism, I'd say block them on the spot, don't wait till they produce more damage. Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:47, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Gricehead
As the person requesting the block of 124.62.79.115 on WT:Footy, to give background this is a user who adds literally hundreds of invented football players and managers to historic squads, going back to 2016 across at least four static (or at least long term fixed) IP addresses. They occasionally add an innocuous edit to a football space which isn't vandalism, but well over 95% of their edits are of the type mentioned. They have often gone unnoticed for long periods due to the difficulty of disproving a negative on historic articles, but eventually they slip up and add one of their inventions as a 24th player in a 23 man international squad, causing the light to shine on their other efforts more closely. Never have any of the four IPs we've collectively discovered interacted on their talk pages. At least one of them (49.143.151.98) had escalating blocks placed and returned each time but the last, year long, block to continue the disruptive editing. By this time they'd moved to a new IP address. This was a good block. Gricehead (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by WBG
Good blocks per BK and Floq. Close this without letting this to go into the more heat than light territory. ∯WBGconverse 11:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by GiantSnowman
I'm always happy for my blocks to be reviewed. One was clear vandalism (as confirmed by Gricehead, and I understand the IP has now been re-blocked by Floquenbeam for the same behaviour) and the other is a clear sock per DUCK and Black Kite's comments. I'm currently on holiday so not really online over the next few days...read into the timing of this report what you will (yes, I will assume bad faith here, thanks, given that it would have been nice if Uninvited Company could perhaps have spoken to me first about the two blocks in question rather than running straight here trying to get me in trouble (which is what it appears like)). GiantSnowman 11:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Fram
No comment on the vandal block, it seems from comments from others that this was an obvious vandal. About the Woking sock block: for starters, it is a clear sock, no doubt there. Whether the block of an obvious sock is within the letter or the spirit of the ArbCom restriction doesn't really concern me either. For this specific sockmaster though, I would urge GS to try a different approach. When I looked in the history of this sock, it was very unclear what their indef bvlockworthy behaviour was. Every edit by these socks I have looked at (socks from October 2018 or thereabouts, not earlier ones) looked to be perfectly factual. So I would urge GS, the next time he spots one of these socks, to approach it on the talk page and start a discussion about a way forward for both of them (e.g. pick one named account, no more IPs, and no more blocking), as the current situation is a huge timesink for both without any benefit for enwiki. Of course, if I'm missing stuff and the sock is actually inserting sneaky vandalism, copyvio's, ... then unblocking is not an option. Fram (talk) 13:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Sandstein, if you are just expressing your opinion, no problem of course. But if you are stating your intention, please don't. Give them if necessary a warning that sock blocks con't fall under the "vandalism" exception, ask them to give better summaries (as NYB does), propose ways forward (like I did), but blocking now seems extremely harsh for this. Fram (talk) 15:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Berean Hunter
It is ironic that GS has been brought here for issues related to not communicating. Can someone show me where he was asked about this? The remedy requires GS to "respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrative actions and to justify them when needed", but he wasn't given a chance. That bit of fact-finding would have helped to forego this whole report because the underlying incidents have since gained the endorsements of uninvolved admins that one issue is about a vandal, and the other as an IP sock. There is nothing actionable here. Oppose taking any action against GS.
Since the committee does not make policy, I doubt that it was their intention when writing the remedy to override existing policies concerning banned editors and sockpuppets. I don't believe it was their intention to tie GS's hands by making him adhere to some fictitious system of escalated templates that is out of process. You don't warn banned editors or sockpuppets, you just block them. Those that are asserting that he should be placing warnings are incorrect. The language of the remedy may need to be corrected at ARCA to more accurately reflect the committee's intentions and help avoid confusion.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by isaacl
Regarding the applicability of enforcing remedies from an arbitration case: as described in arbitration case 2015-10, under the remedy "Common sense in enforcement", administrators should not second-guess the remedies and corresponding enforcement actions issued by the arbitration committee. Thus on principle, I don't see staleness as a reason not to enforce a violation of terms by which an editor is under review
. However, the same remedy in 2015-10 also states Except for the cases when the Arbitration Committee has predetermined the set of escalating sanctions to be imposed for violations of a final decision, the severity of the sanction imposed should be commensurate with all circumstances of the case at hand, including the seriousness of the violation and the possible recidivism of the editor in question.
As Floquenbeam stated, given that the circumstances is an obviously correct block, enacting a block on GiantSnowman does not seem to be suitable reaction. isaacl (talk) 21:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
I also agree that it is not reasonable to expect warnings to be given to obvious socks, as the standard response is revert, block, and ignore. isaacl (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman/Proposed decision#GiantSnowman admonished and placed under review, the arbitrators have a discussion that begins with GS is asking if the wording could include an exception to the edits of known sock puppets.
Leviv ich 17:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Result concerning GiantSnowman
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- What are we supposed to do here? I know the remedy says to report to AE, but we can't exactly block someone for using the block function, because per the blocking policy, it's only supposed to be used to prevent ongoing disruption to the project, which clearly isn't the case here. There is no authority to topic ban in the remedy, and regardless, a topic ban from blocking may as well be a desysop. The most I think we can do within policy here is log a warning to follow his sanctions and note that editors are free to take him to ARCA for future violations. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:00, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Block for a week, then longer if it happens again? I don't understand this question.
only supposed to be used to prevent ongoing disruption to the project, which clearly isn't the case here
– Sure – if these blocks are nobrainer obvious vandalism, then there's no ongoing disruption – but there's also no arbitration remedy violation, so obviously don't block anyway! ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 04:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)- You missed my point with the quote you cited: the only enforcement provision the case had was blocks (the default enforcement provisions). Per WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE, we can't block GS just to punish him for violating a sanction unless we think that block will serve some purpose in preventing future disruption, which I don't think there is any evidence of. If GS was on a blocking spree, then yeah, blocking him would prevent something.What has been raised here is two unclear-if-violations blocks, one two weeks ago and one 48 hours ago. The one two weeks ago is stale, so a block for that would be nothing put a punishment. The one 48 hours ago for block evasion, well, that's more recent, but if that's all that can be found I'm not really seeing an argument for a block even if it's a violation. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Further clarity here: I think if this was a timely report (it’s not) and there appeared to be an ongoing threat of bad blocks/violations of the remedy, we could theoretically have a preventive block here. What we have now, is two blocks, one that this report caused an admin to reblock over that was two weeks old. Another that is almost three days old and may be valid. We also have a report that was filed when the person who enforcement against is on vacation, hasn’t made a block since the last one, and is going to be away for at least 2 more days. In these specific circumstances even if there was a violation, my understanding of the facts and reading of the blocking policy would not consider a block to be preventative, even though it may be in the future. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I missed your point! The block would, ostensibly, serve the purpose of preventing GS from blocking anyone in the future. The things you're saying are true about a lot of AE blocks – admins will hand out really long blocks for things that in and of themselves are not disruptive, but do violate arbcom remedies (hopefully because they are part of a larger pattern of disruption). They're done to prevent further violations of arbcom remedies, i.e. disruption. I can not fathom why this case would be any different. Is it because GS could self-unblock and then go right on blocking others? That isn't what you're talking about, is it?? (That wouldn't end will for GS, obviously.) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:17, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- We would not block in similar circumstances if the editor was a non-admin. It is both the lateness of this report, and its lack of actions to act upon that are the issue. One possible hyper-technical violation of the remedy that was impossible to comply with anyway, plus the editor in question is on vacation and was never talked to? A block here would achieve nothing. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- A+ ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- We would not block in similar circumstances if the editor was a non-admin. It is both the lateness of this report, and its lack of actions to act upon that are the issue. One possible hyper-technical violation of the remedy that was impossible to comply with anyway, plus the editor in question is on vacation and was never talked to? A block here would achieve nothing. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I missed your point! The block would, ostensibly, serve the purpose of preventing GS from blocking anyone in the future. The things you're saying are true about a lot of AE blocks – admins will hand out really long blocks for things that in and of themselves are not disruptive, but do violate arbcom remedies (hopefully because they are part of a larger pattern of disruption). They're done to prevent further violations of arbcom remedies, i.e. disruption. I can not fathom why this case would be any different. Is it because GS could self-unblock and then go right on blocking others? That isn't what you're talking about, is it?? (That wouldn't end will for GS, obviously.) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:17, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Block for a week, then longer if it happens again? I don't understand this question.
- I have not reviewed the other editor yet, but regarding User talk:124.62.79.115, they were definitely vandalizing, and have been for a month. It took me a little research to verify, and only after all that work, I stumbled across this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 122#South Korean Inventing IP Editor back. I understand there might be some bad blood here, but UC could have asked GS about this on his talk page... Anyway, the wording of GS's sanction exempts him from having to make 3 escalating warnings for obvious vandalism. The IP was at it again today; I've blocked for 3 months. No comment either way on the other editor yet. Maybe tomorrow.
- p.s. If there is a problem with the other editor, Tony's still got a really good point above.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment There's little doubt that the second editor, 5.151.172.213, is an IP sock of indefblocked user Woking123, both through IP location and behaviour. Uninvited Company claims that "the IP may well be another editor at a nearby location who shares (unsurprisingly) the same geographically-limited interests" - which is possible, except that the IP (and the others) are 100 miles from Woking. Anyway, assuming this is a sock of a blocked user, how is GS supposed to give them three escalating warnings? We don't even have templates for that because obvious socks just get blocked... Black Kite (talk) 10:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Blocked admins can't block anyone. They used to be able to unblock themselves (in the case of accidentally blocking themselves, which I've done), but they can't any more. Black Kite (talk) 15:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- My reading of the remedies is that AE has jurisdiction over this issue.
But I would decline to exercise this jurisdiction. The only authorized enforcement action is a block. But blocking GiantSnowman would not prevent them from using the block function. Even if, therefore, we were to conclude that GiantSnowman violated the restrictions applying to them, the sanction we could impose would be ineffective in preventing further violations of the restrictions. Therefore, if action is necessary here, it would need to be taken by the Arbitration Committee. Sandstein 11:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
@Winged Blades of Godric: Is that so? Is there documentation establishing that blocked users are technically unable to block others? Sandstein 12:09, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. A block would therefore be an effective remedy. That being the case, I am of the view that the request has merit. The applicable restriction reads: "[GiantSnowman] may not block an editor without first using at least three escalating messages and template warnings". GiantSnowman does not contest that they have violated this restriction in the cases reported here by not leaving any prior messages for the IP users at issue. Even assuming that the "clear vandalism" exception applies to the first case, the second case is allegedly a case of socking, which is not vandalism, and the exception therefore does not apply. I would therefore block GiantSnowman for a week in enforcement of the restrictions. Sandstein 15:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'd strongly suggest that you don't. There isn't any consensus for it, and as pointed out, an admin can't issue escalating warnings to an obvious sock, because the warning templates don't exist - socks are simply blocked. Black Kite (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with BK: I very strongly disapprove of this distinction between "obvious sock" and "obvious vandal" being used to block GS for a week for a first offense. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:22, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I join in agreeing that there would be no consensus for a block here and that should definitely not happen. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, yes, of course, it would not ordinarily make sense to leave three escalating messages to a suspected sock to tell them to stop socking. But it's not up to us to decide whether the restrictions make sense. They say that there must be three escalating messages before a block (obvious vandals excepted). So GiantSnowman has to leave three rather pointless messages to the sock, or ask somebody else to block it. If that restriction makes no sense, then ArbCom should change it. To me, this illustrates that this sort of micro-managing restriction is almost always a bad idea, but that's not up to me to decide. Sandstein 22:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. As a volunteer, no one is twisting your arm to block and where it is a question between the letter of the policy and the spirit of it, one should align with the spirit of it. You can always defer to the members of the committee on this for better clarification. Then you would be sure to not be mistaken.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 17:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. As a volunteer, no one is twisting your arm to block and where it is a question between the letter of the policy and the spirit of it, one should align with the spirit of it. You can always defer to the members of the committee on this for better clarification. Then you would be sure to not be mistaken.
- I'd strongly suggest that you don't. There isn't any consensus for it, and as pointed out, an admin can't issue escalating warnings to an obvious sock, because the warning templates don't exist - socks are simply blocked. Black Kite (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I want to disagree with various admins above. The arbitration committee have restricted GiantSnowman's use of the blocking function and asked us to enforce that restriction with blocks. It is, I think, generally accepted that blocks placed at AE can be considerably after the fact and that the deterrent effect of such blocks is how they satisfy WP:PUNITIVE (the majority of blocks for 1RR violations fall into this category, for instance). It seems bizarre to me to argue, as Sandstein has above, that although the arbitration committee has placed restrictions and authorised blocks to enforce them, it would not ever be possible for AE admins to place blocks.
Secondly, I think he has violated his restriction here. The vandalism block I'm happy to let lie; it's obvious vandalism if you know about the Korean football vandal and not obvious vandalism if you don't know about them. But the sock-puppetry block is a clear violation of the restrictions. There is no exception in the restrictions for sock-puppetry. He is required to either give the appropriate warnings (they need not be templated) or to consult another admin regarding the block. Yes, this is onerous and bureaucratic, but thems the breaks when you're found to have abused the block button.
Thirdly, I think we need to be very careful here not to be seen to be treating admins brought to AE differently to non-admins; some of the responses here so far seem to me to be looking for reasons to avoid action and we oughtn't to do that. That said, I don't think the violation is so egregious that we should block on a first offense, just as we probably wouldn't block or ban an editor for a single instance of mild TE.
Given all of the above, I'd close this with a logged warning to carefully observe his restrictions. GoldenRing (talk) 12:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)- @GoldenRing: two points. First if this report had been filed against a non-admins violating a TBAN, it would have been laughed out of AE for being stale and UninvitedCompany would be looking at a logged warning not to waste time and to stop going through the weeds of another editor’s contributions with the intent of finding violations (which given the timing, is clearly what happened here.) Taking any action on this report would be treating GS different because he was an admin.Second, the deference argument is nonsense (sorry for being so blunt). It’s commonly used in an attempt to get around the prohibition on punitive blocks, but if the only purpose of a block is to deter, it is just punishing someone. There needs to be some form of likely future disruption it is preventing, and in this case there clearly is none. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with your first point; I can not figure out what UninvitedCompany was trying to accomplish here. These super-trivial reports of behavior that is obviously not an actual problem seem like a huge waste of time for everyone involved. Save it for if/when GS issues bad blocks. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: two points. First if this report had been filed against a non-admins violating a TBAN, it would have been laughed out of AE for being stale and UninvitedCompany would be looking at a logged warning not to waste time and to stop going through the weeds of another editor’s contributions with the intent of finding violations (which given the timing, is clearly what happened here.) Taking any action on this report would be treating GS different because he was an admin.Second, the deference argument is nonsense (sorry for being so blunt). It’s commonly used in an attempt to get around the prohibition on punitive blocks, but if the only purpose of a block is to deter, it is just punishing someone. There needs to be some form of likely future disruption it is preventing, and in this case there clearly is none. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I find either of these blocks to be substantive violations; they seem, (to borrow a phrase from basketball) ticky-tack at best. The 5. was a block for socking/block evasion. We don't typically warn for those. And there seems to be agreement that his assessment of who it was is correct. The 124. is more problematic, in that it does appear that he did not warn three times, however it seems that the opportunity to sanction specifically for that has passed. I am in agreement that issuing a block 2 weeks later for any singular, non-continuing action is not useful. I would be comfortable sanctioning with a logged warning and a clear message that if GS continues to issue vandalism blocks without warnings, we can revisit this with an eye on further sanctions. --Jayron32 13:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jayron, the way I read the wording of the restriction is that 3 warnings are required for anything that is not clear vandalism. If there's something to sanction for the socking block, OK (haven't looked yet). But I would oppose any kind of logged warning for the vandalism block, as I do not think he violated the restriction. It says "GiantSnowman is placed under review indefinitely; during the review, with the exception of obvious vandalism, he is subject to the following restrictions..." (emphasis mine). Plus, stepping back and doing a reality check, it would be weird sanctioning him for a 100% obviously correct block; the issue from the ArbCom case was the mass rollback and blocks that weren't obviously correct. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I think a logged warning is the most severe sanction I would be comfortable with. The least severe sanction I would be comfortable with is "nothing at all". That is, I'm equally OK with doing absolutely nothing. Sorry I wasn't more clear. My only point was that, given that these violations (if there were any at all) were so minor, there should be no substantive sanction against GS, at most a warning. But if the finding here is that it isn't even worth logging a warning, that's cool too. The cries for his head because two weeks ago he blocked someone in an entirely justified manner seems histrionic. --Jayron32 17:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jayron, the way I read the wording of the restriction is that 3 warnings are required for anything that is not clear vandalism. If there's something to sanction for the socking block, OK (haven't looked yet). But I would oppose any kind of logged warning for the vandalism block, as I do not think he violated the restriction. It says "GiantSnowman is placed under review indefinitely; during the review, with the exception of obvious vandalism, he is subject to the following restrictions..." (emphasis mine). Plus, stepping back and doing a reality check, it would be weird sanctioning him for a 100% obviously correct block; the issue from the ArbCom case was the mass rollback and blocks that weren't obviously correct. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- No action is warranted. GiantSnowman should use slightly more descriptive block-reason summaries (e.g. “inserting false statistics in multiple articles” or “obvious sock of vandal XYZ”) to make the reasons for these sorts of blocks more explicit. Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- My take on this from being on arb com at the time, was that the blocking of obvious socks was not intended to be an exception. The only exception was obvious vandalism, which includes " (such as page content being replaced by obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons. " (fromWP:BLOCKING POLICY). It was my impression that we meant what we said. DGG ( talk ) 04:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- My take was that as with any remedy, it should be interpreted and enforced in a way that addresses problems rather than creates them. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- That was the reason behind our use of "broadly interpreted"-- to avoid creating problems about what did or did not fit under the remedy. It seems that it did not work--the argumentation just shifted to the exact boundaries of "broadly" The creativity of those on arb com is no match for the deviousness of the community. DGG ( talk ) 20:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Volunteer Marek
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- "Topic ban reduced to one month in duration, beginning as of this date" [58]
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by Volunteer Marek
In this recent WP:AE request concerning another editor I made a couple statements concerning the motivation of the original poster (Icewhiz) and their reasons for filing their request. On the basis of my statements about the original poster, Sandstein issued a 6-month topic ban from Eastern European topics, although he also claimed that my comments "have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request". This part of the rationale was demonstrably false, as almost all of my comment addressed substance of the request (my points were even numbered to correspond to the filer's points). This was noted by other administrators (User:Drmies, User:Black Kite) who responded to Sandstein:
- "six months for one sentence, in the relative free-speech space of AE"
- No, it's for one sentence (or possibly two). The rest of the statement is generally replying to the filing party's claims, many of which are indeed dubious. This is far too harsh.
At that AE request, Sandstein did not respond to my explanation. Other admin also disagreed vehemently with Sandstein's actions.
- User:Bishonen said "I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded". Additionally she states that the ban should've been overturned in the WP:AE request itself, as there was consensus for its removal, and that having me file an appeal would be unfair to me, since the ban was obviously undeserved in the first place (yet, here I am).
- User:Newyorkbrad said "Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none". Note that Newyorkbrad specifically says "withdraw" and notes the strong WP:CONSENSUS for Sandstein's actions "If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine." (yet, here I am)
- User:Black Kite added that "(the ban is) a ludicrous sanction and it needs fixing, and it shouldn't be down to VM to appeal it either. " again noting that there shouldn't even be a need for an appeal (yet, here I am)
- Then at 23:39, February 28 Newyorkbrad stated: A consensus to reverse (the topic ban on me) appears to be emerging
However, without any response to the other admins, Sandstein nonetheless closed the AE report with the topic ban still in place, less than 8 hours after Newyorkbrad's last comment.
My first reason for appealing the ban is then simply that Sandstein's action was against clear WP:CONSENSUS and he did not provide a sufficient rationale for it. I understand that since the area is under discretionary sanctions, a unilateral action such as this, strictly speaking is not against policy. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. If this was a disagreement between Sandstein and one other administrator, then yeah, sure. But here we have FOUR administrators explicitly and strongly opposing Sandstein, and NONE supporting him. Yet, he went ahead and did it regardless, ignoring the input of others. If this was article space and someone acted in this manner, then it'd be THEM who'd be looking at a sanction.
As a result I DID ask Sandstein on his talk page to rescind the topic ban [59] per #1 here. Sandstein responded with a "have you stopped beating your wife" kind of question to me, which was worded in a way that no matter how I answered, I would be admitting to having done something bad. I responded. Sandstein replied that he was "not entirely convinced" and that "you do not convince me that you understand why I considered it necessary to impose the sanction". I decided to be entirely truthful in my appeal, and rather than pretending falsely that I did understand, I explicitly stated that I did NOT in fact understand why it was necessary. Of course, as exemplified by the four admins discussed above, I wasn't the only one. It seems that NOBODY but Sandstein understood why it was necessary.
In the end however, Sandstein magnanimously reduced the topic ban he imposed on me against consensus to one month rather than six. I sincerely thank him for that. He also generously told me that I was free to appeal the reduced topic ban. Thanks for that as well. So here I am.
Here is the bottom line, and I'm going to be honest. I've been around long enough to know that the way to get a sanction removed is to grovel before administrator power and hope for the best in the ensuing Struggle session. I can't do that. I disagree with the topic ban and I see no reason for it. Obviously I am not the only one, since the topic ban was imposed against strong consensus from FOUR other admins. I do believe that the majority of my original comment was non-problematic and specifically addressed the issues raised in the WP:AE report.
However, it is true that the two sentences directed at Icewhiz's motivations, and my description of him, Francois Robere and Yanniv as a "tag team" were inappropriate and I should not have made them. If given a chance I would have struck them or removed them. I made a mistake. But so did Sandstein in imposing the topic ban. I am here admitting that I made a mistake.
Since the crux of the issue was my comments at an WP:AE request from Icewhiz, I can totally understand if the one month ban is converted into a restriction on me commenting on Icewhiz's WP:AE requests. Most likely there will be plenty of opportunities for me to violate such a restriction in the future and I promise not to do so. Such a restriction would be both fair and relevant to the nature of the original violation.
Of course, I'd rather not be sanctioned at all. So if possible, I will simply promise to refrain from commenting on other editors' motivations when they file requests at the drama boards, and I will not describe groups of other editors as "tag teams".
I'd appreciate it if the discussion of this appeal stayed relevant to the nature of the appeal rather than digress into various red-herrings (since that's kind of how we got here in the first place)
Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Re:Sandstein - as already noted, yes, discretionary sanctions can be imposed without consensus. That does not mean they should be, especially if consensus is overwhelmingly against them. "I do it just because I can" is a terrible rationale for, well, anything, Sandstein. And no, the appeal is not based solely on the fact the sanction was against consensus. The appeal is based on the fact that the sanction was INAPPROPRIATE and did not provide adequate justification as reflected by consensus judgement
Regarding Icewhiz's statement. I'm going to keep this to the minimum. Icewhiz, if you truly feel those diffs are "bad" then go ahead and open up a separate WP:AE request. NONE of them concern this appeal. To quote Sandstein, they "have at best a remote bearing on the subject of this appeal request". I'll be more than happy to respond to them in the most appropriate and deserving manner if you do choose to open up a separate WP:AE request.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
(if any admins DOES wish me to reply to Icewhiz's aspersions here I will be more than happy to do so - for now I just wish to note that "the editor" whom Icewhiz is citing approvingly in #4 of his comment [60] is User:Kaiser von Europa who was indefinetly banned by User:Salvio giuliano for making violent threats and pushing neo-Nazi POV back in 2013) Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
This appeal should be declined. I had written a longer comment, but then my browser tab crashed. I'll therefore only note that the only argument made as grounds for the appeal is that my topic ban in response to Volunteer Marek's AE statement was "against consensus". This is an inapplicable argument because discretionary sanctions do not depend on consensus, but are explicitly a matter of an individual administrator's discretion. For the rest, I'll refer to my conversation with Volunteer Marek (permalink) on my talk page. Sandstein 08:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Icewhiz
Concurrent to the AE, VM has made a number of sanctionable actions elsewhere which were more serious than his conduct at the AE. I believe presenting this evidence at the appeal is relevant, as filing this evidence in a separate AE request would be a re-discussion of the same issue:
- 16:19, 26 February 2019 -
"You showing up to an article you've never edited before but which was a target of a now indef-banned user I had serious trouble with a few years back and whose sock puppet I reverted recently. Want to explain that one?"
- WP:ASPERSIONS - alluding to some connection between myself and a sockpuppet. - 15:46, 26 February 2019 restoration of WP:REDFLAG material challenged on sourcing -
"During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination"
- tagged with "fact|date=August 2017". He then 15:46, 26 February 2019 remove the fact tag, stating " ref is right there". He did not participate in the discussion of this municipal funded source (beyond the non-argument of "And the source is reliable"). To add insult to injury - the cited (quite questionable) source - available here does not contain this REDFLAG material at least per my reading (checked each instance of a "zyd" inflection). Violates WP:V. - At the AE - 05:59, 26 February 2019 VM admitted that
"For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either."
- which is a shocking admission considering his 06:36, 24 February 2019 revert of material challenged on REDFLAG + source misrepresentation grounds. Nor has he participated on the talk page there. (for the record - Kopciowski was one of the sources I accessed prior to claiming misrepresentation). Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge). - 06:09, 26 February 2019 - rollback to a version from 5 March 2017. The material was challenged by an editor on 14:03, 27 July 2017. for
"There is no evidenc for the passage, the outrageous comparing of Poles and Jews in the last sentence ist terrible"
. The WP:REDFLAG content in question is" as Nazi party was elected to power in Germany, repressions intensified, eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination"
. The cited source - [61] - is a webpage from the municipality (certainly not a RS for history) - and furthermore does not (per my reading) contain the REDFLAG content. VM did not explain his revert on the talk page nor even in his edit summary - an auto-generated edit summary for a very significant edit. Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge).
Editing Holocaust history requires careful use of good RSes. Alluding to sock-puppetry, not discussing ("And the source is reliable" not being beyond a mere semblance of a discussion - in the other 2 - no discussion at all), and inserting WP:REDFLAG material after it has been challenged (and without verification) is not careful editing. Icewhiz (talk) 08:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Volunteer Marek
Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.