Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive227) (bot |
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*"''{{tq|Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses.}}''" |
*"''{{tq|Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses.}}''" |
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I'm still willing to discuss K.e.coffman's concerns, as I’ve shown, and in hopes of moving forward I haven't raised any counter-complaints (I'm hoping that won’t be necessary, I don‘t want this to drag on), Or, we can just leave things be and move on altogether. Thank you - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">''[[User:Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]''</span> 16:35, 10 March 2018 (UTC) |
I'm still willing to discuss K.e.coffman's concerns, as I’ve shown, and in hopes of moving forward I haven't raised any counter-complaints (I'm hoping that won’t be necessary, I don‘t want this to drag on), Or, we can just leave things be and move on altogether. Thank you - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">''[[User:Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]''</span> 16:35, 10 March 2018 (UTC) |
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====Follow up response from Thewolfchild==== |
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Well, I have certainly be following this page closely and I want you all to know that, whether I agree with you or not, I have read all your comments thoroughly and with considered attention. The first item I would like to address is the assertion that there is a "lack of awareness" on my part. That's my fault, I should've been more clear in my initial statement. I am aware that at times my comments are sarcastic and blunt but I didn't think I was really breaking any rule. But instead, I should've been considering other people's feelings. I seem to have genuinely hurt some feelings here and for that I apologize. As per NeilN's comment; no, I rarely edit firearms related articles. I can't remember the last time I did, and beyond that, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find an edit of mine to a firearms related article, or post to a related talk page, that is "POV", "pro-gun" or otherwise controversial. As per Bishonen's comment: no rhetoric, I was really hoping to avoid dragging this out more than needed. But I do have responses to K.e.c' diffs and a few to add as well; |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AR-15_style_rifle&diff=prev&oldid=829373183 first diff] is deliberately misleading. Taken it it's full context, I was replying to a comment of his, and while I was writing it out, he changed the comment. After I posted, he then accused me of "selectively quoting" him, knowing full well he'd changed his comment while I was editing, hence the "false accusation" comment. |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AR-15_style_rifle&diff=prev&oldid=829361147 second diff] is a comment I actually stand behind. While there was still an active [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=830172834 RfC at the Village Pump] about whether or not to add information about mass-shootings to firearms-related articles, K.e.coffman was doing just that. Adding controversial content, no proposal, no discussion and certainly no consensus. He added a new section to "AR-15 style rifle" titled; "Use in mass-shootings". This became the subject of dispute as noted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AR-15_style_rifle&diff=828133207&oldid=828006582 here] |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AR-15_style_rifle&diff=prev&oldid=829209192 third diff]; yes I made a comment to Dlthewave about the above noted RfC. I had advised him to let someone else write it since he had already participated in related straw-polls, but he did anyway. I don't think it was particularly well written, as evidenced by the widely varied !votes, the complaints from other editors, and the fact that he added another option, (at K.e.coffman's request btw) a week later, after a couple dozen editors had already contributed. (It's not surprising that Dlthewave posted here and was critical of the fact that I merely posted some (hidden) numbers). |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAR-15_style_rifle&type=revision&diff=828931227&oldid=828925184 fourth diff]; of course he wants you to "scroll all the way to the bottom" to see where I "cast aspersions with an ownership accusation". He doesn't want you to see that I'm actually ''responding'' to an ownership accusation from BullRangifer. However, instead of making a big deal about it, I chose a tongue-in-cheek reply and then moved on. So did, apparently, BullRangifer. |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAR-15_style_rifle&type=revision&diff=828920880&oldid=828913856 fifth diff]; Again is a comment I stand behind. I didn't use the words "bad faith" an it's a pretty weak accusation when I am pointing out facts. |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AR-15_style_rifle&diff=next&oldid=828000657 sixth diff]: has me pointing out that he had removed content as "promotional". He states: {{tq|I didn't remove content from the page as "promotional"}}. Actually, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=825912262 he did]. So now he's caught in a lie, while calling me a liar. |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAR-15_style_rifle&type=revision&diff=827090204&oldid=827080681 seventh diff]; Ah... the page move. ''While'' the title of the article then known as "Modern sporting rifle" (since it's creation in 2012) was actively being discussed and debated, K.e.coffman suddenly and arbitrarily [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AR-15_style_rifle&diff=826571411&oldid=826491279 moved] the page to "AR-15 style rifle", without any consensus for doing so, and knowing full well it was a controversial, and likely to be contested page move. (I think it was argued it was allowed as a BOLD move, despite all the reasons not to). I in fact did contest the move and reverted it, (which as a disputed or bold move, it can be reverted), and I then posted to the article talk page about it. However, instead of engaging in discussion, or posting an RM, K.e.coffman [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AR-15_style_rifle&diff=826966314&oldid=826920222 moved] the page again (that is move-warring) I moved it back and immediately posted an RM myself (as he still hadn't done so), which also resulted in 7-day protection for the page. Over two dozen editors participated in the RM discussion who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity. I'm not sure why he would want to raise this very bommer-rangy-type incident. |
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*K.e.coffman's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAR-15_style_rifle&type=revision&diff=826980388&oldid=826968791 eighth and final diff]: Yes, I accused him of bias. Still do. He has been very clear with his comments and his edits (and his pages moves) what side of the fence of his opinions are on. But again, that cuts two ways. The reason the RfC was moved to the Village Pump, even though 3 talk pages discussion were closed and directed to the firearms project talk page, where discussion had begun was because because K.e.coffman [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Firearms&diff=next&oldid=826403662 claimed] it wasn't possible to have a neutral discussion at the Firearms Project talk page, basically accusing everyone there of bias because of a single comment. He further went on to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&diff=prev&oldid=826980459 claim] that I was a "Firearms Project member" when in fact I am not and [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/usersearch.py?name=Thewolfchild&page=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Firearms&server=enwiki&max= never] have been, and I feel this has lent to the perception that I am "pro-gun". |
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Now, does this mean I'm looking for sanctions on K.e.coffman? That's up to the admins. Does this mean my apology was wasn't real? Of course not. But, all that aside, I really did want to a balanced article. I actually do support the addition of a linked note regarding a shooting incident on the page of the firearm that was involved. For those of you claiming I'm completely against the inclusion of any mass-shooting info, please re-read my comments and check my straw poll entries. But just the same, I may have pushed so hard for an NPOV, neutral article, that I came across as someone with a POV agenda anyway. I made comments too often, I made comments that were too long, and I made comments that were not as civil as they should of been. For that, I again offer my apologies. I've come to realize that this a learning experience and with these lessons will be taking more away from this than I would with a warning. Sorry about the length. Thanks for hearing me out. - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">''[[User:Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]''</span> 04:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Dlthewave==== |
====Statement by Dlthewave==== |
Revision as of 04:28, 14 March 2018
Andrew Davidson
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Andrew Davidson
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Sitush (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA :
What appears to be a long-term fundamental inability to understand the complexities of the Indian caste system leads to often lengthy and wikilawyered discussions such as here, here and here. There is no easy way to explain the complexities in 500 words, sorry, but, for example, in the last diff AD argues use of sources that simply do not refer in any meaningful way to the subject, in the linked Samra discussion he argued at length to use unreliable sources, causing Drmies to issue a sanctions alert, and in the first of these diffs he argued using both unreliable sources and with a clear lack of understanding of how the caste system functions. As some of those diffs infer, they are not the only examples but I'm struggling with the interaction tools at the moment - they keep timing out or simply not returning a result.
We've currently got this, where AD is perpetuating his previous stances, again without any apparent understanding of the caste system. In that discussion, he seems even to think that we should keep an invalid statement rather than remove it and so cause an article to be blank. He has also been arguing at length about the validity of the most recent sanctions alerts here, indulging in yet more time-consuming litigation of dubious merit.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
None known
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months here, soon after expiry of one issued issue a sanctions here.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I have filed this under the username Andrew Davidson but some past discussions were under another username, Colonel Warden, which he allegedly agreed with ArbCom to stop using but actually has not. The AD account is more active of late.
It is ok to have an opinion but to tendentiously pursue it can be problematic, as can misrepresenting what sources say even if it is due to a lack of understanding. I'd like to see a topic ban from caste-related matters, broadly construed, because I and probably others feel like we're banging our heads against a brick wall.
- Replying to AD's edits here. It is nothing specifically to do with one AfD. It is a general pattern of lack of comprehension that, in fact, you are even demonstrating in your comments here. The problem is, you mention expanding your interests into editing caste-related articles but you cannot even demonstrate understanding in the AfDs, throwing in irrelevant sources (the Oxford book being one), unreliable ones and arguments that are non-starters because the caste system does not operate in the manner that you seem to believe. - Sitush (talk) 20:46, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: then you are unwittingly part of the problem. I know that CIR is not a policy but when someone like Andrew Davidson gets involved it just creates a shedload of issues that need to be addressed. Just one example: this not only fails WP:V on the relevant point but makes a grossly incorrect assumption that "important" = something special in terms of Reservation in India. It doesn't. There are plenty of "important" communities - politically, economically etc - that do not conform to the original research which AD insists makes this impossible list meet LISTN. Yes, AD is a quite extreme inclusionist and, yes, way back he gave me my first barnstar for rescuing an article at AfD, but if people cannot understand that caste-related issues need understanding then there is no hope, sorry. And when the same easily verifiable point is made again and again but AD refuses to accept it, well ... It is just a timesink and it is a timesink that can have quite peculiar consequence because these articles are not particularly well watched (Catch 22?). In this instance, I strongly suspect that AD's fake references in the first AfD caused it to be determined as not suitable for deletion, yet he protests when the thing is blanked because there is nothing verifiable. Then comes back umpteen years later and says he can make it verifiable but in fact he cannot, as anyone familiar with the topic would know. The same applies to his insistence that unreliable sources are in fact ok to use.
- I admit that I am struggling to explain here. I know for sure that there are people who think AD is being absurd but this is a topic area where scrutiny is poor and one of the consequences of that is examples such as the current AfD, which comes out of a previous AfD that had no merit other than the fake refs, a complete lack of comprehension, and an admin who presumably saw some mention of sources and thought "that's ok". But, as I said at the outset, this is not a one-off issue. - Sitush (talk) 00:31, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: I acknowledge your comment about a lack of diffs. I was utterly bemused regarding how I could possibly give specific diffs in such a complex matter but if you can suggest a way to disentangle then that would be great. As it is, I am sort of hoping that common sense could prevail here: if people really cannot see the problem just reading a few example threads then, frankly, I despair and may as well give up. We have two sets of sanctions regims for the topic area for a reason.
- @D4iNa4: I have had little involvement in this process and couldn't possibly comment except to say that I used the word unwittingly on purpose. - Sitush (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Andrew Davidson: regarding the FloridaArmy situation, you are being economical with the truth, as so often. Plenty of admins are aware of that situation, eg: Deb, Ritchie333, Drmies. Given your long-term ability to frustrate people with your contrarianism at RfA etc, I really don't think you should be raising your head above the parapet in this manner. - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: your (c) proposal should perhaps also say that the sources should be directly relevant. For example, the three sources referred to by RegentsPark were useless for creating the list that was under discussion. Andrew was arguing that since they mention Sikhs and caste, they verified the notability of the list but in fact they did nothing of the sort because of his common inability to comprehend the Indian social systems etc. A source merely mentioning a word or phrase is not necessarily relevant to whatever is under discussion. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Notified here
Discussion concerning Andrew Davidson
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Andrew Davidson
What we have here is an AfD – note that I have not edited the article in question at any time. I'd be quite happy to stop arguing about the matter and just let the AfD process take its usual course but it's Sitush that keeps coming to my talk page to belabour the matter (8 times already today). There are some content issues and I understand them just fine. What Sitush doesn't seem to understand is our policies and guidelines such as WP:PRESERVE and WP:BLANK and he states openly in the discussion that he's not heard of them before. My position is that there's some scope for improvement here and so our policy WP:PRESERVE would have us prefer this alternative to deletion. In the course of discussion, I have produced good sources such The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies – a respectable and recent work from a university press. I have also pointed to other related pages such as List of Other Backward Classes in Sikhism which no-one else seemed to have noticed. I'd be quite content to have both these pages merged to Sikhism#Sikh_castes which contains a similar list of Sikh castes and so am quite flexible about the outcome. All that needs to happen now is a period of quiet so that other editors can contribute to the AfD and then the closer can settle the matter in the usual way. Compare, for example, Manchu studies, which is about a similar weak page but for which I have found a good source. I have no strong feelings about these topics but am entitled to my views on them, as is common at AfD, and I contribute usefully to the discussions, arguing from sources and policy, as we're supposed to. Note that the previous AfD referred to (Samra) was over two years ago and so these issues don't arise often enough to warrant special measures. What might require attention is Sitush's insulting incivility, for example, "how dense can you be ... your incompetence". In that previous AfD, I noted that Sitush seemed to be violating WP:OWN, WP:PA and WP:BLUDGEON and we have the same pattern again here. Andrew D. (talk) 20:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- @RegentsPark: should please move their contribution from the section reserved for "uninvolved admins" because, as they recently discussed the specific topic in question, they seem involved. Note that, when they stated their opinion of the topic, they did not provide any evidence, whereas I provide and cite examples, sources and policy. Note that I don't just google in a crude way, as RP supposes. I have an extensive personal library, including multiple, respectable books on the specific subject of caste. I have good access to research libraries in London which I regularly visit, such as the BL, the Senate House Library, the Wellcome Library and more. Through these and other resources such as the Wikipedia Library, I have good access to online resources such as JSTOR. I am therefore able to read and quote sources when needed to develop or support a position, as in this case. I fully appreciate the ramifications of this topic area but my general position is that we should explore alternatives to deletion so that topics can make progress, rather than being stuck in an unproductive cycle of creation, blanking, reversion and deletion. Andrew D. (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Uanfala notes that he has found Sitush to be over-zealous. I also noticed another spat yesterday between Sitush and FloridaArmy. That seems to have nothing to do with India or castes but is some minor dispute about long-dead US dignitaries such as Walter M. Digges. FloridaArmy became so exasperated that they just banned Sitush from their talk page: Sitush I am tired of your lies, harassment and disruptive editing. ... Please don't post on my talk page again. So, we see that there's a pattern of Sitush getting into vitriolic disputes with other editors about anything. Myself, I don't usually get so much trouble in other AfDs with other editors. For example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manchu studies (2nd nomination) has now closed as keep. In that case, I found a reasonable source, cast my !vote and it seemed to help resolve the discussion. That's the way these things ought to go, right? Andrew D. (talk) 10:26, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Uanfala
I know absolutely nothing about the situations that led to this case, but Andrew's comment about Sitush coming to their talk page to belabour the matter
rings a familiar bell. My only interacation with Sitush in the last couple of months was a more or less procedural !vote in an RfD they started, and a deprodding of an article that apparently was on his watchlist [1]. As a result, he came to my talk page with a series of bad-tempered comments (see User talk:Uanfala#Chib). I'm not providing any diffs as none of it is sanctionable, but I don't think occasional minor disagreements should lead to so much drama. We all have better things to do here than endlessly bicker with one another, right? – Uanfala (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Andrew Davidson
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I don't see how this is actionable. To begin with, the request contains no diffs of edits by Andrew Davidson. As to the caste-related discussions linked to in the request, I don't see anything substantial, at first glance, that might amount to sanctionable misconduct by Andrew Davidson. Even if one assumes with Sitush that Andrew Davidson is mistaken or ill-informed with respect to the questions at issue, that is not a violation of Wikipedia conduct policy. I don't see how this is more than a content dispute coupled with strong disagreement on the inclusionism / deletionism axis. Such disputes should be resolved through normal dispute resolution rather than through arbitration. Sandstein 22:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sitush, AE is a bit strict on policy, evidence, etc for pretty good reasons. To act, we need clear cut diffs that show obvious misconduct. Nebulous patterns of behavior don't fit into WP:AE very well. Keep in mind. AE isn't a consensus board, when an admin acts, they act unilaterally, and they have the authority to ignore everyone else, or take those opinions to heart. We usually work together and often a majority agrees with the outcome, but whichever admin closes and acts, s/he owns those actions, and must be able to articulate the issue via WP:adminaccct. Looking briefly at your case, I don't see a solid case being presented, even while admitting one might exist. My advice is to have actual diffs along with SHORT explanations for each, and take it to ANI, which is better suited for long drawn out ordeals, and allows input from everyone. ARBPIA restrictions can still be issued from there, but if this situation is as you describe, it transcends ARB and would be getting into general policy, which is easier to deal with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:45, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
- While I don't see anything actionable here, I do see some cause for concern. Looking through the edits, it appears that Andrew Davidson, though editing in good faith, doesn't understand the domain. Caste in India is a complex subject, continuously confounded by interest groups, government action, and poor quality judgements made during the Raj era. It is because of this complexity that we have imposed community discretionary sanctions on this area and most uninvolved admins, like myself, issue warnings and blocks solely based on sourcing, i.e., whether edits are sourced or not and, if sourced, whether there is consensus on the reliability of those sources. Editing by googling the way Andrew Davidson is doing is not going to work very well in this area because it invariably pulls up unreliable sources. Insisting on Raj era sources when consensus is against using them is not going to work very well either. But, like I said, there is probably nothing actionable here right now because Andrew Davidson appears to be editing in good faith. However, if this continues, a topic ban from caste related articles is likely in the future. --regentspark (comment) 15:27, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- AndrewDavidson, I don't consider myself involved because I have no opinion on caste matters and an occasional drive by comment doesn't change that. Also, like I state above, I don't think you're editing in bad faith here. Rather, regardless of the quality of access you may or may not have to sources, you seem to be editing with a shallow understanding of the complexity of the topic area, particularly with your "if we build it the sources and content will come" approach which is practically an invitation to the POV editors out there. Also, if I may point out, the three sources you include here are all google books sources which, unfortunately, do give the impression of being found through a google search rather than through visits to the various libraries you list above. That you are editing against consensus is fairly well borne out by comments from other editors such as in this edit summary and this one. Regardless, all I am saying is that when you have a shallow understanding of a topic area, it is generally better to edit with a light touch than with an aggressive one.--regentspark (comment) 19:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, since you asked for diffs I looked a little deeper. The AfD in question is a second nomination. In the first nomination, you !voted keep with the same three sources that you've listed in the 2nd nomination and with the same "if we build it the sources will come" rationale but, in the three plus intervening years, you have neither edited the article nor done anything with those sources (nor has anyone else). That, it seems to me, pretty much backs up my "shallow editor" hypothesis. A shallow understanding of the content and an aggressive editing style are not a good combination. --regentspark (comment) 19:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- AndrewDavidson, I don't consider myself involved because I have no opinion on caste matters and an occasional drive by comment doesn't change that. Also, like I state above, I don't think you're editing in bad faith here. Rather, regardless of the quality of access you may or may not have to sources, you seem to be editing with a shallow understanding of the complexity of the topic area, particularly with your "if we build it the sources and content will come" approach which is practically an invitation to the POV editors out there. Also, if I may point out, the three sources you include here are all google books sources which, unfortunately, do give the impression of being found through a google search rather than through visits to the various libraries you list above. That you are editing against consensus is fairly well borne out by comments from other editors such as in this edit summary and this one. Regardless, all I am saying is that when you have a shallow understanding of a topic area, it is generally better to edit with a light touch than with an aggressive one.--regentspark (comment) 19:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Reading through this request, I'm not seeing a consensus for any blocks, topic bans or similar but I am seeing consensus that Andrew should not carry on as they have been doing. So unless there are further comments I suggest closing this with some form of advice to Andrew to gain a deeper understanding of the topic area and review past consensuses about the quality of sources* before commenting (contributing?) further if he wants to avoid a topic ban in future. How should this be phrased? Should it be highlighted as advice, encouragement or a warning? *A summary of these with links to the discussions would be a useful resource for a Wikiproject to collate if they haven't done so already (I haven't found one but didn't look particularly deeply). Thryduulf (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with RegentsPark's "shallow editor hypothesis", and with Thryduulf's finding. I think it should be a warning, and preferably logged. My impression is that the editor is too pugnacious to benefit from mere advice. This is an overall impression, but contributory examples are their attempt here to paint RegentsPark as involved, and what I see as a tendency to call everything and nothing "personal attacks" and "aspersions".[2][3] Bishonen | talk 15:39, 10 March 2018 (UTC).
- @Bishonen, RegentsPark, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein: (and anyone else) How about "Andrew Davidson is warned that before commenting further in the Caste system in India topic area (broadly interpreted) they need to (a) gain a deeper understanding of the subject, and (b) review past consensuses about the quality of sources. Failure to do this will result in a topic ban or other sanction."? Additionaly, I think something about only including (or proposing to include) material supported by sources judged to be reliable and of high quality (sources about which there is not a recent consensus should be presented for review first), might be good but I can't think how to phrase this cleanly or concisely at the moment. Thryduulf (talk) 23:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- That seems ok. I find it difficult to recommend doing anything more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, that's a good warning; it's a bit elaborate, but that's probably needed for it to be effective. (I could almost wish it applied to everybody editing the area.) How about an addition to make it "Andrew Davidson is warned that before commenting or editing further in the Caste system in India topic area (broadly interpreted), they need to (a) gain a deeper understanding of the subject, (b) review past consensuses about the quality of sources, and (c) only offer material supported by sources judged to be reliable and of high quality. Sources without recent consensus must be presented for review first. Failure to comply with these conditions will result in a topic ban or other sanction."? Bishonen | talk 12:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC).
- Sounds good. Bishonen's added c looks good as well. --regentspark (comment) 12:20, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- How do you determine whether someone has "gained a deeper understanding of the subject"? Would a test be set? That seems a very vague requirement, subject to gaming. And the second requirement isn't much better; how can you tell whether someone has "reviewed past consensuses"? It would be better to address the behaviour. Option (c) from Bishonen is a good one, as it is clear and measurable, and addresses behaviour rather than mindset. If you have to have (a) then at least say "demonstrate he has gained a deeper understanding of the subject". Fish+Karate 12:30, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Fish and karate. Sandstein 14:04, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Fish and karate and Sandstein: Yes, Bishonen's (c) is well written. As for (a) and (b) those are good points - they would work as written for advice as that doesn't imply (or require) any enforcement and (b) is actually kind of redundant to (c) (I can't immediately think of a way of complying with (c) that doesn't involve doing (b)). I suggest therefore a two-pronged resolution: (a) adivice to gain a deeper understanding; (b) a warning regarding sources (i.e. using my (a) as advice, Bishonen's (c) as a warning and dropping my (b)). We could use (a) as a warning with the "demonstrate" modifier, but that I think would be my second choice. I've not been able to come up with a formation for this that reads anything better than 'very badly' though, so someone else will need to do the wordsmithing. Thryduulf (talk) 15:40, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Good point, Fish. I agree with Thryduulf that it makes sense to divide it into advice and warning. (But certainly with the whole thing to be logged.) So perhaps "Andrew Davidson is advised that before commenting further in the Caste system in India topic area (broadly interpreted), they need to gain a deeper understanding of the subject. They are warned to only offer comments or article edits supported by directly relevant sources judged to be reliable and of high quality. Sources without recent consensus must be presented for review first. Failure to comply with this warning will result in a topic ban or other sanction."? The "directly relevant" addition comes from Sitush's pertinent new comment.[4] Relevance is indeed one of the problems with sourcing by Google Books, as discussed by RegentsPark above: it tends to throw up sources that merely mention a phrase superficially or in passing. A book being generally "reliable" won't do anybody much good in such a case. And the addition of "comments or article edits" is to make sure it's clear that this warning applies to both talkpages and articles, as wearying insistence on talkpages has clearly been a problem. Bishonen | talk 16:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC).
Willard84
No admin has expressed an interest in taking action. See also the result of the request concerning Mar4d below. Sandstein 08:49, 8 March 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Willard84
Warned by EdJohnston in July 2017 that: "If you continue to edit war on any topics related to India or Pakistan you are risking a topic ban."[5]
These are the two most recent incidents that I can name. The long term edit warring, stonewalling, civil POV pushing, misrepresentation of consensus, and demonstration of WP:INCOMPETENCE shows that Willard84 is truly careless about how much disruption he is causing. I believe that a topic ban is clearly warranted now. Excelse (talk) 05:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein: I don't know anything about the report against Mar4d, though his messages and comparison of the report against him with this report about Willard84 is described in the first point of WP:SANCTIONGAME. We have a "clear-cut case" here that Willard84 had made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours on 1988 Gilgit Massacre right after coming off from a 4 days block back in July 2017. But he wasn't blocked for edit warring because EdJohnston thought it would be better to give him a stringent warning that further edit warring will lead to topic ban.[26] With Willard84's demonstration of his incompetence here we can simply agree that there are no chances of improvements. Since he has continued to edit war and there are many other issues with his disruptive editing and he has completed enough requirements for a topic ban, I am not sure what else needs to be clarified here. Excelse (talk) 05:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Willard84Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Willard84I’m confident the arbitrators will find this complaint to be unwarranted and not done in good faith. This is an editor who engaged me in a heated discussion months ago who now appears to be seeking some sort of discretionary sanctions based upon sour feelings. He’s making accusations essentially on behalf of others who didn’t find my behavior so disturbing that they themselves would file a request. Instead we have an editor with whom I haven’t interacted for many months randomly appearing out of the blue and stalking my edits to build a frivolous case against me. Out of many months of edits, and literally hundreds, if not thousands, of edits, he pulls out a few cherry picked examples to build a case. I think this violates the spirit of collaboration and I find this sort of stalking to be very objectionable - even worthy of sanctioning to be frank. If the arbitrators seriously feel these accusations warrant actual disciplinary measure against me, please ping me back to this page and I can dedicate more time to a rebuttal. So much of what he said is an inaccurate depiction that completely neglects so much, but just as a quick illustration of the sort of details that he neglects to mention, he didn’t inform you that the issue on the Nanga Parbat page that he complained about was resolved cordially via discussion with that other editor.Willard84 (talk) 08:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Raymond3023Willard84's on-going attempts to deceive others are concerning. He is still misrepresenting incidents and trying to throw mud on OP's report by falsely claiming the existence of the incidents that didn't even occurred when the report was filed. See WP:GAMING. The report was filed at 05:43 (UTC). At 08:37 (UTC) Willard84 changed timestamp of his 1 hour older response and makes a misleading claim that OP "neglects to mention, he didn’t inform you that the issue on the Nanga Parbat page that he complained about was resolved",[28] after leaving a message on talk page at 08:32 (UTC), despite the report was filed almost 3 hours ago. Willard84 is now attempting to get away from the article by claiming that he "resolved cordially" when he is clearly giving up on the article and he failed to remove the sourced content and failed to get his puffery accepted because his disruption has been highlighted in this report. But I am sure he will resume his disruption on that article for his WP:OR.[29] Furthermore, edit warring of Willard84 didn't even stopped with this one edit[30] and one revert,[31] because after he failed to remove the content from lead, he still removed it from lead by creating a new section called "Etymology" and moving material there[32] and he provided no reason for his edit. Since his aim was to get rid of the meaning of the word from the lead, I would count it as 2 reverts for removing the meaning of the name, and 2 additional reverts for adding puffery. In total, he made 4 reverts. Seeing he is clearly working on deceiving others not only on articles but also here now, he is leaving me with no choice other than to support topic ban which would be still lenient because editors also get indeffed for such shenanigans. Raymond3023 (talk) 10:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by D4iNa4Willard84 you can't ignore your long term pattern of your nationalistic editing by making false accusations against others. Even if you had never edited the the main Template:History of Pakistan, your behavior on it's talk page has been purely disruptive, though you edit warred enough to get the template protected twice by restoring to a pseudohistorical nationalist version written by an editor who used a sock to notify you recently.[33] The template should be totally unprotected the way Template:History of India is, even though it is much more edited and visited than Template:History of Pakistan. But due to your disruption I think we will never reach there unless you are topic banned. I am really seeing no justification for your actions. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2018 (UTC) Response to D4Nai by Willard84Nationalistic editing? The Template discussion revolved around whether consensus had been reached - don’t misconstrue this into a question of competing nationalism. I think the arbitrators here are well aware of how to spot arrogant nationalism - and it isn’t coming from me. The debate has been ongoing since October, yet you made a change in late February after months of stalemate and resurrected a version which was objectionable for its inclusion of minor empires like the Marathas who ruled for not even 2 years and left essentially no trace of their presence,while you suggested that the Indus Valley Civilization (with its major sites in modern Pakistan) be removed from a template about Pakistan. In fact, the changes you made aren’t the changes you put forward for discussion - you made a set of changes that hasn’t been discussed in their entirety. I was pushing for a reversion to status quo - I think you’ll need to do a better job of demonstrating how this was pushing a nationalist viewpoint. Even the comment about Pakistani viewpoints was explained in the debate as a point brought up simply because this fell under wiki project Pakistan. And anyway, once the third party had stated they thought consensus had been reached, I dropped the issue even though I think that third party did not consider the context behind it. D4iNa4 has had his own history of belligerent POV editing against me. Here another reviewer had to explain to D4iNai and another user that Washington Post is a reliable source when D4 had sided with another user to ensure the page only reflected claims that the train was burned as a result of a pre meditated “conspiracy” by Muslim passengers, by ensuring that any mention of events prior to the burning which cast other non-Muslim passengers as rowdy were not included. Willard84 (talk) 20:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by Kautilya3I would acknowledge that Willard84 is a bit quick to hit the revert button, but he is a good productive editor otherwise. Perhaps a warning should suffice for now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by LorstakingI agree with the filer, Raymond3023 and D4iNa4 but I disagree with Kautilya3. Another warning would be a waste of time since he has been already warned and blocked enough times for what he has been doing and he is not still not understanding the serious problems with his editing. According to his own statements here, he still believes that even if none of his edits were accepted they were still correct and also that others are engaging in misconduct by not accepting them. He still believes his edits are correct where he is treating princely states and their subdomains (Phulra, Khanate of Kalat, Dir, etc.) during British Raj as the main power as per his own edits[34][35] to paint a wrong picture that Pakistan was never really colonized by British and was mainly ruled by these vassals. Willard84 also wants to mention initial and outdated rumors about Godhra train burning as facts even after being told otherwise by Edjohnston and not just the involved editors. You just can't expect him to collaborate without creating enough problems. His input on talk pages[36][37] can be also described as mass bludgeoning just like his statements here, some of them have been already removed by Sandstein.[38] I am also noting that his accusations against others of misconduct without giving any evidence constitute personal attacks. He is saying in one of his statements here [39] that everyone is allowed to revert but he is now gaming 3RR by not reverting 3 times in 24 hours. Clearly that is how he managed to revert 4 times on Nanga_Parbat[40][41][42][43] In short words this is a clear case of disruptive nationalist POV pushing and WP:CIR. Lorstaking (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Response to Lorstaking by Willard84
Statement by Capitals00While a number of recent examples of continued disruption have been already provided, I think it is nonetheless worth it to describe the problem to be bigger and continuous. I have observed Willard84’s edits over a long period of time and many of them have proved to be problematic. Here are a few examples of nationalist editing over a broad range of articles:
These edits show Willard84's problematic editing behavior across many articles. Despite previous warnings and blocks, it has continued and Willard84's own comment indicates that this problem will remain. I would recommend a topic ban on India and Pakistan related articles broadly construed. Capitals00 (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by Mar4d
Result concerning Willard84
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Born2cycle
Short version: indef block of Born2cycle by myself. See final statement for details. This is not an WP:AE action, it is a normal admin action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:04, 8 March 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Born2cycle
Discussion concerning Born2cycleStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Born2cycleI think Tony means well, but he is totally misunderstanding my efforts. I suggest that when he has an issue with someone's behavior, he at least first try to resolve it by reaching out on that person's talk page, which he has not done with me. By the way, I did do that with him, and he suggested the discussion continue "in other forums"[56], which is exactly what has happened, and now he's complaining about that. I think my statements speak for themselves, but it's clear Tony and others misunderstand. I am accepting the opinions of others, I'm just trying to bring attention to certain issues. Building consensus through discussion, or trying to do that, is all I'm doing. This is how WP opinions evolve, for better or for worse. Nobody is required to participate in these discussions. Some people are interested. I'm open to changing my opinions - and I like to know what others think and why. This is all part of the process. I'm not demanding anyone see anything any particular way. I hope this is all I'll have to say about this. --В²C ☎ 18:07, 6 March 2018 (UTC) Regarding the Faberge situation, my recollection (it was over a year ago) is I reverted some page moves, my moves were reverted, so I started an RM. Consensus did not agree with me, and that was the end of it. --В²C ☎ 18:39, 6 March 2018 (UTC) In general, I have some strong opinions about how to improve WP in the area of titles. This is no secret; see my user page. Naturally, not everyone agrees with my opinions and ideas. Sadly, some develop animosity towards me personally as a result. So, you're seeing some of them pile on here. After the Sarah Jane Brown RM, I had three different major points to make, which I tried to make at the appropriate places. I expressed my concerns with the close at the closer's talk page. I shared my belief that closers should be encouraged to look for community consensus in discussions rather than counting raw !votes at the Wikipedia talk:RM. And I raised my question about the interpretation of WP:NATURALDIS at WT:D. As far as I know, all these are normal and appropriate issues to raise and discuss. --В²C ☎ 19:16, 6 March 2018 (UTC) Folks, not one person has even requested I change my behavior on my user talk page. I assure I would have responded by changing my behavior had that happened. I honestly don't get what the issue is with me commenting as much as I do, I do feel each of the recent discussions I started and participated in were fruitful (and I appreciate participation from everyone else), but I can certainly stop without being required to do so. I'm disappointed that so many people see my behavior as "rolling the dice" until I get "my way". I've tried to explain myself everywhere I post, my user page and my FAQ, but to little avail, apparently. But I get the message. Thank you. --В²C ☎ 19:51, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
General response to all commentsI'm probably going to bury myself by saying this, but I'm just astonished by all the responses here. People I've respected and thought I had many productive discussions with are characterizing me and my behavior in a way that is totally foreign to me. I have no idea what most of you are talking about. And it's like you forget there is a real live human being behind the persona of "Born2cycle". Yes, I have strong opinions that I'm passionate about. I care about Wikipedia and want to make it better. I care about the community - the editors and the user. Yes, my opinions about improving WP, especially in the area of title decision-making (an area I'm guessing most of you don't care much about), are based on reasons, and I go out of my way to explain them. See my user page. And FAQ. This is a crime? Pardon my French, but WTF? You guys are literally talking about muzzling someone because you don't want to be forced to read what he has to say any more (as if anyone is forced to read anything anyone comments about), or because you don't care about what I do care about. Please keep in mind that we're talking exclusively about my "Tendentious Editing" on TALK pages, where, you know, we're supposed to TALK. In discussions, I tend to err on the side of clarity. Again... this is a crime? What's the point of talking if you're not even understood? Sometimes my opinion is with the majority; sometimes it's with a minority. Sometimes I'm persuasive; sometimes I'm not. Isn't all this normal? How it's supposed to go? It has been claimed, below, that discussing with me is a waste of time because "discussions [for me] are weaponized to defeat [my] enemies". First of all, I have no enemies. Some may think of me as an enemy, but that's a one-way street, I assure you. The idea of using a discussion as a weapon is inherently preposterous, at least in my mind. The whole point of diplomacy (i.e. discussion) is to avoid use of weapons! Discussion is the methodology of peacemakers. That's how I see it. but if people are seeing discussion as "weapons", well, that explains much (smh). And I certainly am not trying to defeat anyone. All I'm trying to do is make title decision-making less problematic and less contentious. Yes, I realize the irony in that, but the road to peace is often built with debate. I realize I often I hurt my own position by being too verbose, but, again, I tend to err on the side of clarity. And it's not like I'm copying/pasting the same text all over the place. Every single one of my talk page posts is an original edit; each character typed in one by one, like this one. I care deeply about what I'm writing about and I put an inordinate amount of my personal time into it; I get that not everyone else appreciates this. So the solution is to muzzle me? What is the matter with you people? Is that how you treat people in the real world? If so, I'm glad I don't know you in real life, but I doubt you do. Thankfully, for the 1st Amendment. If we had freedom of speech equivalent to 1st Amendment rights on WP, there would be nothing to discuss about my "behavior" here, would there? Consider that. It's not like I'm yelling "Fire!" in a theater, am I? Or, think of it like this. What if my exact same comments were made not by me, but by, say, three different people, A, B and C? The exact same words, but randomly signed by A, B or C instead of by just one person. How would anything be any different? All those who choose to be involved would still have to read the same text, consider the same arguments. There are claims that my postings are disruptive. But if they were made by A, B and C instead of by me, they wouldn't, would they? So, what is it about what I'm doing that is so problematic? What's the fundamental problem? If you're going to go through sanctioning someone, how about clearly explaining what the reasons are for the sanctioning - what is the real problem you believe you're addressing? Because, other than an apparent desire to muzzle me for tribal emotional reasons that we thankfully counter in the real word with recognition of free speech, I, for one, have no idea. --В²C ☎ 17:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC) MelanieN, somebody, please help me. I understand what "better receptiveness to compromise and a higher tolerance for the views of other editors" means. What I don't get is how I am not receptive to compromise or how I am not tolerant for the views of others. Being tolerant does not mean agreeing. For example, I'm tolerant of the decision at SJB - I just don't agree with. And I dropped it (though some feel I didn't, so we disagree about that too - how about some tolerance for my views?) --В²C ☎ 20:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC) FORUM SHOPPING?From WP:FORUMSHOP: "Where multiple issues do exist, then the raising of the individual issues on the correct pages may be reasonable, but in that case it is normally best to give links to show where else you have raised the question." I've been accused of forum shopping below, more than once. This is a charge made in good faith, but in error. Per the above, there were multiple issues involved, and I raised each at the appropriate place.
In retrospect I can understand given the timing and the fact that I raised each of these issues related to the close it can appear to be forum shopping, but it's not at all. Each is a separate general legitimate issue to raise at each of the respective venues, and raised appropriately after the close. If you actually look at each of the discussions, particularly at what I initially posted at each, you'll see that you couldn't reasonably do that at any of the other forums. It's not like I posted the same thing at multiple places; not at all. That is, each one was different and belonged where I posted it. Unfortunately, because of the timing and the participants, the discussions often did tend to drift back to the topic of rehashing the SJB close, but that was not my intent, and I stated as much in most if not all instances. Thank you. --В²C ☎ 17:36, 7 March 2018 (UTC) TonyBallioni: despite my explanation here, you still claim that I "shopped the close". You describe in your own slanted way what I did at WT:RM: "... essentially a rant about how people need to agree with what you think consensus is when they close discussions". Even if true, how is that shopping the close? My statement speaks for itself, there was no "need" for anyone to agree with me about anything; not implicitly nor explicitly. I'm sorry you read it that way, but I can't be responsible for words you read that are not there. The dearth of you quoting any of my actual words to back up your claim of me "shopping the close" and ranting about others "needing to agree with what I think" is telling. What, by the way, do you even mean by "shop the close"? The close was done. There was nothing left to say about it, especially not at WT:RM. If I wanted to challenge it beyond what I said at your talk page, I would have gone to MRV. Other than being most recently inspired by that close, my "rant" was not about the close. Do you really not see that? Perhaps read it again. As to WT:D, you claim that was me "trying to change consensus when [I was] told that [I was] wrong on what it was at WT:RM". Again, I'm bewildered that that is what you think that was about. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote there. Exactly what consensus do you think I was trying to change? The only issue there was the wording and meaning of NATURALDIS. This happens all the time after RMs. When RMs seem to go contrary to what policy says, a reasonable issue to pursue is whether some policy wording might need to change. For example, that's how WP:PRIMARYTOPIC got expanded at WP:D to include the historical significance criteria. Because at some RMs the consensus was that a certain topic should be "primary" due to its historical significance even if it's not the one most likely to be sought by users searching with the term in question. So the policy was updated accordingly, but only after someone (perhaps even me - I can't remember) brought it up on the WT:D talk page. The same kind of thing here. In fact, as a result of my starting that discussion, at least one editor even suggested an actual edit to address the issue I raised. You know, the issue my post was raising, as opposed to the one you imagined it to be about (to change some unidentified consensus about who-knows-what). --В²C ☎ 19:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by PrimefacAnother related incident (B2C refusing to accept the results of an RM) was at Fabergé egg. I had closed an RM at Danish Palaces (Fabergé egg), part of which resulted in a new/procedural RM to codify some questions raised at that RM. Following the close of the second RM (RM2), B2C calls into question the result of RM2, claims that it's not valid, and undoes all of the moves resulting from RM2 (see Talk:Fabergé egg/Archive 2). They then proceeded to start a third RM attempting to reverse the result of RM2, which was strongly opposed. These two RMs (the eggs and Brown) are the only two major interactions I've had with them, and I have consistently seen a battleground attitude where if it doesn't 100% absolutely match the written law of page naming, it's wrong and everyone who believes otherwise is wrong. It's not conducive towards a productive working environment, and undoubtedly has a chilling effect on RM participants. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 6 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by SarekOfVulcanConsidering the lengthy discussion you started on Tony's talk page, B2C, I'm not sure what you think would have been accomplished by him re-starting another discussion on essentially the same topic on your talkpage. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf(Commenting here as I proposed sanctions in the most recent AN/I discussion, I'm uninvolved with the specific move discussions). It's less than a month since B2C was brought to AN/I where in a lengthy thread he was reminded (several times) about the arbcom finding and that his behaviour was not well thought of by a significant number of editors. Yet now we're here with evidence that he hasn't learned a single thing and continues to display the exact same behaviour. I think it's time that some restrictions were imposed - the AN/I showed some support for a restriction on the number of comments he may make in any single RM or other article titling disucssion, a prohibition on nominating articles at RM that have had a recent previous discussion (1 year iirc), and a limit to the number of concurrent RM nominations he may make. I'd consider adding to that a requirement that he may challenge the result of an RM discussion only through a formal move review nomination, with a maximum of one such discussion per page. I don't know whether AE has the authority to do that in this case or not though. Thryduulf (talk) 19:16, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment by SN54129
Statement by ValarianBAs a participant in the Mrs. Brown discussion, and reading some of the following discussions on other talk pages and such (what a fascinating, years-long topic people have invested in this!), a line at User_talk:TonyBallioni#Sarah_Jane_Brown that was most concerning was this, Statement by Beyond My KenWhen B2C writes above: "...I meant no one came to my user talk page in regard to my behavior in discussions since the SJB decision, which is what apparently sparked this.", in all probability that's because anyone who has ever dealt with B2C, or followed the long-running B2C saga on the noticeboards, is aware that asking B2C to change their behavior is essentially like talking to a brick wall, and almost never results in any change in behavior. I mean, this has been going on for, what, years? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by AwilleyI also commented in the AN/I discussion so I'm putting myself here. My only involvement that I can remember was as part of a 3-admin close panel some years ago at an RM where B2C had participated. I only remember it because they were so overbearing and tendentious in their approach. Anyway, I second support for the limited sanctions of the type proposed by User:Thryduulf that would limit the creation and participation in RM discussions but without shutting them out completely. It is their field of expertise and passion after all, I just think they need a throttle for the sake of everybody else. ~Awilley (talk) 05:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by Jayron32
Statement by MelanieNI have not interacted with B2C for years and have no opinion on the SJB title. I’d just like to note, reading this discussion, that he is his own best evidence against himself. In his latest comment, he continues to display exactly the behaviors that he has been accused of and warned about for at least six years. Instead of reflecting a "better receptiveness to compromise and a higher tolerance for the views of other editors," he accuses others of "an apparent desire to muzzle me for tribal emotional reasons". Illustrating his persistent IDHT attitude, he says "I have no idea what most of you are talking about." --MelanieN (talk) 19:00, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by andrewaThe discussion between myself and B2C at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#See wt:DAB#Criteria for determining whether someone is "commonly called X" for WP:NATURALDIS is relevant I think, and my views are expressed there. Andrewa (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by (SmokeyJoe)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Born2cycle
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by ScratchMarshall
Appeal unanimously declined. Sandstein 08:45, 8 March 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by ScratchMarshallNeil posted this 19:24 March 3rd: User_talk:ScratchMarshall#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_topic_ban after MrX posted this 18:19 March 3rd https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=828626868#ScratchMarshall_promoting_conspiracy_theories which was 1 hour 5 minutes afterward. I am appealing this sanction because I do not believe my 2 redacted to the article about this person violated BLP policy. This was the keystone in the allegations made against me, and I believe it is grounds to have the case reviewed because it was a fraudulent accusation. I tried to talk directly to NeilN to appeal but special:diff/829060226 shows he denied my stage 1 appeal of direct communication. At special:diff/828310006 MrX left me a warning on my talk page on March 1st. MrX accused me of violating BLP policies. At special:diff/828529765 Acroterion banned me for 48 hours on March 3. Acroterion was an involved administrator. He alleges I posted defamatory speculation. These actions center around these edits. I must link the history page directly because of the lack of 'prev'. Presumably Acroterion scrubbed the history, I don't know how to check that. Neither of them would give any sort of detailed explanation as to how they supposedly thought I was violating BLP. MrX had mentioned:
I hadn't seen a problem with linking to heavy because the "5 Fast Facts" article was (and still is) cited on the article, I was merely duplicating the source in the talk page to discuss it. I will not edit the BLP article or its talk page until the sanctions are lifted, but it is essential that I am able to LINK to it, since it contains important evidence required for my appeal. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_Hogg_(activist)&oldid=828083696 shows a version of the page as MrX left it on February 28. It includes 2 articles by Stephanie Dube Dwilson from Heavy.com, one of which was the one I had mentioned on the talk page. I submit this as evidence that MrX had absolutely no problem with Heavy, because he left these sources intact. Yet when I cited them merely on the talk page, this was somehow a BLP violation? I hadn't noticed that at the time, but had respected the objection as there were plenty of sources to cite and I had no attachment to Heavy. So that is why I created the "Business Insider" section, to provide an alternative more reputable-sounding source to see if MrX objected to it. So far, the citation of Allan Smith's article has not been redacted, so I assume no. You can read at User_talk:MrX#I_require_some_clarification how I attempted to learn more information about MrX's objection. Everything except what he erased in special:diff/828524383. This surrounds my addition of a talk page contribution citing an article on wusa9.com by a reporter named Eliana Block. This is not visible in the BLP talk page because of the removal of diffs, presumably by Acroterion. This was a Washington DC news source which is the largest market-size affiliate of CBS. It's been around since 1949. I was using these sources to report on notable debunkings. This has been twisted as if I were promoting the material which was debunked. I ask uninvolved admins, what serves to propogate conspiracy theories more?
What I did in this removed post, what Eliana Block did, was point out that some troll took a photograph of the Stoneman Douglas yearbook and said it was another school's yearbook, that a bunch of gullible people ran with that, and then a Stoneman Douglas student disproved the allegation by doing a live video showing the page was from the SD yearbook and not any other school's. Twitter is not a reliable source on its own, but it is when verified by reliable sources. Eliana Block of WUSA 9 is a reliable source, so it is grounds to link the the secondary source she cited. I am perplexed by these accusations and how nobody has spoken against them, because it is entirely clear that I was presenting reliably sourced debunkings of false accusations for discussion on the talk page, the exact opposite of promoting the accusations. This was not in any way promoting conspiracy theories. Debunking false accusations innoculates against conspiracy theories. Any theory based on "Redondo Yearbook" claim falls apart with the proof of it being a Stoneman Yearbook.
I do not believe the citation of Eliana Block's article or her Joey Wong video source was a BLP violation. If there was some aspect besides posting this which Acroterion believes was a BLP violation when he rolled back my edit, I leave it to Acroterion to clarify that. So far Acroterion's comments on this that I'm aware of are limited to:
Acroterion might take this opportunity to rephrase the nature of objection to the suppressed diffs if it was something other than citing from Eliana Block. If that's all it was, then yes, I do not believe doing so was a BLP violation, so suppressing that citation seems like an abuse of admin tools. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Re
I direct Neil to look at some statements presently included in articles, which I did not add. David_Hogg_(activist)#Attacks_and_conspiracy_theories
Stoneman_Douglas_High_School_shooting#Conspiracy_theories,_disinformation,_and_harassment
Here we can see specific details of false allegations are reviewed rather than ignored. Do you have plans to remove all of this and issue BLP warnings to whoever added these details? ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Your ANI appeal was a farce because only admins could view what was deleted. The opinions formed by people unable to see the suppressed diffs hold no weight. You actively misrepresented my edits as being BLP violations when they were not. You poisoned the well, ensuring there could be no neutral discussion at ANI. That is why an admin-only discussion is important. Acroterion was involved. Your calling him "uninvolved" is a falsehood.
More vagueness from you:
If my words are so detailed, why do yours remain so vague? The only thing I recall speculating on was why Hogg could've been in Redondo in 2017. I said I thought it was probably a summer vacation but that I would not add that to the article unless I found a source with that. I did end up finding said source. That's not a conspiracy theory, that's an ANTI-conspiracy theory. So really, be specific, because I think you're avoiding any specific details or examples of what I allegedly pushed because they don't exist.
These aren't BLP-violating allegations. The most offensive claim, that Hogg was a crisis actor, remains up on the page, and I did not put that there. All I did was bring up on the talk page was the debunking of memes. You keep talking as if you could read my motives, yet to anyone who understands this, debunking theories against Hogg would be the last thing someone would want to do if they wanted to promote conspiracy theory. Someone wanting to promote conspiracy theories would only post un-debunked theories, or only post theories in isolation without their debunking. Acroterion, please explain why the source you removed and the action you took (what I will term the "Block Block" because you blocked me after reverting an addition of an article by Eliana Block) are in line with BLP. How did Eliana Block's article endanger Hogg's reputation? As SarekOfVulcan has pointed out, there is no obvious BLP violation in those diffs.
Thank you for admitting that you abused your admin tools. I see these are no longer redacted. If you un-redacted the diffs, that should weigh in your favor, but that you only did so after your abuse was highlighted is no longer worth much. You still haven't actually restored the sections to the page though, which I think you should do, since you have admitted they are not BLP violations. They are not "clothed". You are assuming bad faith. These are reliable sources and I was responsibly trying to discuss how notable they were on the talk page instead of rushing to put them in the article. ScratchMarshall (talk) 02:36, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
When you said "what you advocated here" you linked to a diff where the only URL I added was https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/david-hogg-florida-school-shooting-california-video/ The title of that article is "David Hogg: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know" by Stephanie Dube Dwilson, from 20 February 2018. This was a source ALREADY PRESENT IN THE ARTICLE. I may as well go track down who added it... @CookieMonster755: appears to be the one who added it, on February 25: special:diff/827485615 Notably MrX edited directly after this (less than 2 hours later): special:diff/827498926 and did not object to this source in any way. So this source remains in the article for 7 days and when I reproduce this same source (untouched in the article for a full week, nobody voices any problems with it) suddenly MrX has a problem with it! Interesting. Were you aware that this source was already in the article for a full week, that I had not added it, that MrX had been aware of the source and had no problem with it being in the article? Is there not an obvious double standard being applied where it's okay for CM755 to add this to the article and for MrX to tolerate it, but citing the same article on the talk page is suddenly sinister? ScratchMarshall (talk) 02:32, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
MrX claimed Heavy was an unreliable source and reverted my edit. You can see this Feb 1 at special:diff/828309263 Either it's a good source or a bad source. That Hogg was the target of an easily disproven yearbook claim IS factual material. However fringe LagBeachAntifa9 was is irrelevant, because enough people ran with it that it ceased to be fringe, as enough people were repeating the claim for Stephanie Dwilson to report on it, as well as other sources. The problem here is you are insisting it is "fringe" based on your own WP:OR, in direct contradiction of other sources which prove it is not fringe. That was why I followed up Heavy.com with BusinessInsider.com and WUSA9.com. The way we resolve disagreements on notability is by weighing sources, not injecting personal opinions. I took careful note of what Acroterion said. It was a "lightly-veiled" attack against me, and you are clearly endorising this form of personal attack against me. I was discussing widely-covered debunkings of theories which had caused enough waves to be worth reporting on to debunk by these reporters. There is no 'veiling' going on here. I was not and am not promoting those theories. Promoting discredited theories by posting the proof which debunks them would not make any sense. Why would someone promote a toothless theory? The theories which seem more dangerous to me are the broader ones without associated 100% debunkings of specific facts, like the allegation Hogg was coached or that he was a crisis actor. I never added those to the page, and their presence concerns me. These are the allegations which hold BLP risks, not "a video proved a page of photos was from the Stoneman Douglas Yearbook and not the Redondo Shores yearbook". That holds 0 risk to Hogg. ScratchMarshall (talk) 03:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by NeilNI looked at the report filed by MrX at here and agreed with their statement, "ScratchMarshall has largely spent his time on Wikipedia subtly pushing far-right propaganda and conspiracy theories in the style of a concern troll" based on the evidence presented. The "concern troll" description is apt as we don't debunk fringe conspiracy theories by mentioning them in a BLP and then saying "but this is all unproven" - we simply ignore them. Editors have tried to communicate this to ScratchMarshall and their reactions can be read in the linked ANI thread. I feel a BLP topic ban is needed and justified as this editor needs to learn what "it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives" means. --NeilN talk to me 20:14, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
And now we have this. --NeilN talk to me 03:05, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by MrXI carefully documented the fringe POV-pushing and disruption, at AN/I. Several editors reviewed the evidence and supported the same conclusion that I made. An uninvolved admin applied discretionary sanctions in accordance with policy. There is no legitimate basis for this appeal, so it should be denied.- MrX 🖋 21:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by AcroterionScratchMarshal has been spitballing BLP-violating conspiracy theories on talkpages and in articles since last summer. MrX has amply documented this behavior over a range of topics. It has long been best practice on conspiracy-infused topics to refrain from quoting the conspiracy allegations in any more than the briefest terms. At Talk:David Hogg (activist) ScratchMarshal opened discussion by posting extensive quotes discussing the CTs with no clear emphasis other than getting it on the talkpage. The comments by ScratchMarshal at Talk:David Hogg (activist) are an unnecessary catalog of speculations, in considerable detail, on the conspiracy theories associated with Mr. Hogg, and taken in mass they are fringe gossip on a BLP talkpage. When warned of BLP concerns by MrX,[58] [59] ScratchMarshal waited a couple of hours and reposted the discussion MrX objected to on the talkpage[60]. This kind of gaming of other editors' clearly-stated concerns is disruptive and led directly to my block. In reviewing ScratchMarshal's edits at Talk:David Hogg (activist) I have reconsidered my redaction of some of ScratchMarshal's edits as essentially futile, in that, clothed as they are in refutation, they aren't blatant BLP violations, but it doesn't change my reasons for blocking. ScratchMarshal's backhanded practice of framing the allegations as debunked reports posted in full for discussion is a way of skirting the letter of BLP. Extensive discussion of BLP-violating allegations of this kind are unnecessary and are a lightly-veiled way of placing conspiracy theories about living people into Wikipedia namespaces. Talkpages are not fora for speculating about conspiracy theories. Acroterion (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2018 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by ScratchMarshall
Result of the appeal by ScratchMarshall
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Thewolfchild
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Thewolfchild
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:08, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Thewolfchild (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Remedies to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Battleground_conduct
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Making allegations_against_other_editors
- Diffs of edits
The diffs are from Talk:AR-15 style rifle where comments by TWC have created a hostile atmosphere; they were directed at me and other contributors:
- 06:27, 8 March 2018 Needless personalisation: "I could as the same of you and your wild and false accusations. (...) If someone doesn't agree with what you edit or the way you edit it, do you always take it personally?" (I had posted to TWC's Talk page [61], which he moved to the article's Talk page creating diff #1).
- 04:07, 8 March 2018 Aspersions: "...the non-stop POV content you and a couple other users have been dumping onto articles like this..." & "You seem to care more about getting a message out (...) Don't preach guidelines and "neutrality" to me until you are willing to follow the policies & guidelines here yourself..."
- 07:54, 7 March 2018 Belittling: "Didn't you write an RfC about this? How's that going anyway?"
- 17:01, 5 March 2018 Aspersions (please scroll to the bottom): "Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have issues with ownership you and some others editors here seem to be asserting over this article".
- 15:44, 5 March 2018 Accusations of bad faith: "That is not "good faith editing', it's not editing by consensus, the content is not neutral, it's disputed and therefore controversial, and yet it's still there, and now the only "discussions" I'm seeing is these editors insisting that even more WEIGHTy content being added."
- 00:37, 28 February 2018 Accusatons of bias: "...significant content is also being removed as "promotional", by editors such as "K.e.Coffman", who have clearly taken a position on this issue" (I didn't remove content from the page as "promotional"; in fact, I last edited AR-15 style rifle on 22 February).
- 18:38, 22 February 2018 Aspersions: "K.e.coffman had no business making a controversial page move (and with such POV-ish reasoning)" & "...his needless page-move-warring and combative POV-attitude...".
- 02:24, 22 February 2018 Accusations of bias: "All your reasoning for moving it is based on your opinion, which is clearly biased".
- Previous sanctions
- Block log
- DS alert
- Alerted about relevant DS on 0:55, 22 February 2018.
- Additional comments
Prior to the DS notification, TWC showed similar behaviour at WP:GUNS, directed at me and another contributor: permalink: "repetitive, off-topic nonsense"; "Give it a rest. It's these kind of prechy, off-topic comments..."; "anti-gun editors"; "You're still going on about this?"; "disruptive"; etc. I raised my concerns on his Talk page; my comment was removed with "don't preach guidelines to me until you start following them yourself".
Re: diff #1, another contributor attempted to collapse it as "non-content-related discussion". TWC uncollapsed the comments twice [62] and [63]; the discussion then proceeded on the editor's Talk page, i.e.: "If I say 'I feel your edits are POV-ish and have an anti-gun tone', that's not an attack".
- Notification
Discussion concerning Thewolfchild
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Thewolfchild
Hello, my first time here, but I’ll my best to help get this resolved. The first thing comes to mind that afaic, this more of content dispute. I’m under the impression that content disputes weren't mediated here, the preferred locations were article talk, Dispute Resolution, AN/I. Anyway, I tried, twice, to pursue resolution with K.e.coffman, which he ignored. When I copied K.e.coffman’s reply to article talk, I did because most of it discussed content, sourcing, supporting guidelines, but as for anything in my comments that have upset him personally, I offered to address that. He didn’t respond so I tried again, specifically;
- "
…you noted concerns about one of my replies. If you could point out the exact problem, I'm more than willing to make changes, if this will help move things forward. Thanks.
"
I pinged him to ensure he aware of this, but again, he didn’t reply. Instead, he waited a full day, came here filed this complaint. This has been contentious issue for many, and some may have gotten caught up in it when it started (a month ago), but I don't think anything there, recently, requires this committee's attention. My position's been neither ‘pro- or anti-gun‘, but instead to push for articles to remain neutral, balanced, encyclopaedic, and collaborative, consensus-based editing. That hadn't been happening. I’d been critical of some of the content thats been edited as well as the way it was edited. He may view these criticisms as “personal attacks”, I don’t see that way, but just the same I’ve already stopped the direct editing criticism and instead posted generalized content concerns.
I’m willing to try resolve disputes, and I’ve already shown that; when Dlthewave advised me of a revert summary he thought inadequate, I posted a reply that explained both the revert and edit summary, and included an apology. I posted to article talk because the reply, with guidelines included, was relevant to the content. (supported by; another revert, and similar changes after). When Dlthewave collapsed my post, I disagreed, for the same reason I posted there the first place. I discussed this on their talk and thought it resolved (he made no further replies, but now he’s posting here, so I don't know) Additionally, there was a minor misinterpretation of reply I posted to BullRangifer, but I made a pre-emptive effort to resolve it and we did.
So, as shown above, I’m willing to work toward resolving disputes. Had K.e.coffman responded, I’m sure that we could’ve resolved his issue also. I’ve been mindful of the concerns expressed, as seen in the examples provided, and reflected my most recent replies. The last editor who’s proposal I disagreed with, replied;
- "
Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses.
"
I'm still willing to discuss K.e.coffman's concerns, as I’ve shown, and in hopes of moving forward I haven't raised any counter-complaints (I'm hoping that won’t be necessary, I don‘t want this to drag on), Or, we can just leave things be and move on altogether. Thank you - theWOLFchild 16:35, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Follow up response from Thewolfchild
Well, I have certainly be following this page closely and I want you all to know that, whether I agree with you or not, I have read all your comments thoroughly and with considered attention. The first item I would like to address is the assertion that there is a "lack of awareness" on my part. That's my fault, I should've been more clear in my initial statement. I am aware that at times my comments are sarcastic and blunt but I didn't think I was really breaking any rule. But instead, I should've been considering other people's feelings. I seem to have genuinely hurt some feelings here and for that I apologize. As per NeilN's comment; no, I rarely edit firearms related articles. I can't remember the last time I did, and beyond that, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find an edit of mine to a firearms related article, or post to a related talk page, that is "POV", "pro-gun" or otherwise controversial. As per Bishonen's comment: no rhetoric, I was really hoping to avoid dragging this out more than needed. But I do have responses to K.e.c' diffs and a few to add as well;
- K.e.coffman's first diff is deliberately misleading. Taken it it's full context, I was replying to a comment of his, and while I was writing it out, he changed the comment. After I posted, he then accused me of "selectively quoting" him, knowing full well he'd changed his comment while I was editing, hence the "false accusation" comment.
- K.e.coffman's second diff is a comment I actually stand behind. While there was still an active RfC at the Village Pump about whether or not to add information about mass-shootings to firearms-related articles, K.e.coffman was doing just that. Adding controversial content, no proposal, no discussion and certainly no consensus. He added a new section to "AR-15 style rifle" titled; "Use in mass-shootings". This became the subject of dispute as noted here
- K.e.coffman's third diff; yes I made a comment to Dlthewave about the above noted RfC. I had advised him to let someone else write it since he had already participated in related straw-polls, but he did anyway. I don't think it was particularly well written, as evidenced by the widely varied !votes, the complaints from other editors, and the fact that he added another option, (at K.e.coffman's request btw) a week later, after a couple dozen editors had already contributed. (It's not surprising that Dlthewave posted here and was critical of the fact that I merely posted some (hidden) numbers).
- K.e.coffman's fourth diff; of course he wants you to "scroll all the way to the bottom" to see where I "cast aspersions with an ownership accusation". He doesn't want you to see that I'm actually responding to an ownership accusation from BullRangifer. However, instead of making a big deal about it, I chose a tongue-in-cheek reply and then moved on. So did, apparently, BullRangifer.
- K.e.coffman's fifth diff; Again is a comment I stand behind. I didn't use the words "bad faith" an it's a pretty weak accusation when I am pointing out facts.
- K.e.coffman's sixth diff: has me pointing out that he had removed content as "promotional". He states:
I didn't remove content from the page as "promotional"
. Actually, he did. So now he's caught in a lie, while calling me a liar. - K.e.coffman's seventh diff; Ah... the page move. While the title of the article then known as "Modern sporting rifle" (since it's creation in 2012) was actively being discussed and debated, K.e.coffman suddenly and arbitrarily moved the page to "AR-15 style rifle", without any consensus for doing so, and knowing full well it was a controversial, and likely to be contested page move. (I think it was argued it was allowed as a BOLD move, despite all the reasons not to). I in fact did contest the move and reverted it, (which as a disputed or bold move, it can be reverted), and I then posted to the article talk page about it. However, instead of engaging in discussion, or posting an RM, K.e.coffman moved the page again (that is move-warring) I moved it back and immediately posted an RM myself (as he still hadn't done so), which also resulted in 7-day protection for the page. Over two dozen editors participated in the RM discussion who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity. I'm not sure why he would want to raise this very bommer-rangy-type incident.
- K.e.coffman's eighth and final diff: Yes, I accused him of bias. Still do. He has been very clear with his comments and his edits (and his pages moves) what side of the fence of his opinions are on. But again, that cuts two ways. The reason the RfC was moved to the Village Pump, even though 3 talk pages discussion were closed and directed to the firearms project talk page, where discussion had begun was because because K.e.coffman claimed it wasn't possible to have a neutral discussion at the Firearms Project talk page, basically accusing everyone there of bias because of a single comment. He further went on to claim that I was a "Firearms Project member" when in fact I am not and never have been, and I feel this has lent to the perception that I am "pro-gun".
Now, does this mean I'm looking for sanctions on K.e.coffman? That's up to the admins. Does this mean my apology was wasn't real? Of course not. But, all that aside, I really did want to a balanced article. I actually do support the addition of a linked note regarding a shooting incident on the page of the firearm that was involved. For those of you claiming I'm completely against the inclusion of any mass-shooting info, please re-read my comments and check my straw poll entries. But just the same, I may have pushed so hard for an NPOV, neutral article, that I came across as someone with a POV agenda anyway. I made comments too often, I made comments that were too long, and I made comments that were not as civil as they should of been. For that, I again offer my apologies. I've come to realize that this a learning experience and with these lessons will be taking more away from this than I would with a warning. Sorry about the length. Thanks for hearing me out. - theWOLFchild 04:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Dlthewave
As one of the "other contributors" mentioned above I agree with K.e.coffman's description of the situation. I would also add that Thewolfchild's unnecessarily long comments are disruptive to the discussion process. Two particular examples are [#1] and [#2] from the list of diffs. Although he does arguably address a previous comment, he goes off on so many tangents that the discussion is no longer focused on a specific ways to improve the article. These comments can be seen in context at permalink. –dlthewave ☎ 04:26, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by BullRangifer
This should also be seen in light of press reports discussing how a "group of pro-gun Wikipedia editors tried to hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle." (Newsweek) There is extensive wikilawyering and gaming the sytem going on. It's persistent, extremely aggressive and personal, and violates policies. Refusal to allow mention of mass shootings using the AR-15 in the AR-15 article is an obvious one. The very existence of that lack proves there is a serious problem and requires no further evidence or diffs. Just look. Something needs to be done. Here are some articles. It started with The Verge:
- A gun group has been editing Wikipedia's firearms pages to sanitize mass shootings, for months. Daily Kos
BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:16, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Replies to:
- NeilN, you get exactly what I was trying to say, especially in light of the content I added above. Maybe a bit too emotionally, but that was the gist of my intent. ("...there is not a lot of difference for me between BullRangifer's comment and an experienced editor telling a SPA editing a politician's bio, "I don't think your boss would thank you for drawing community attention to and possible media interest in your whitewashing of his biography.")
- Dennis Brown, I would consider it an honor to get a trout from you. I'm sure I have deserved many throughout my years here.
All kidding aside, when one considers my entry above, my emotional (yes, it was deep frustration) comment should be seen in that light. The gun articles, especially the AR-15 one, are under observation and scrutiny by the press, public, and NRA. This fire must be extinguished firmly.
I have no idea if there are any paid NRA editors here, but there are several, especially Thewolfchild, who defend the article tooth and nail, and try to keep out the very mention of mass shootings using the AR-15. Those editors carry water for the NRA and use specious arguments to keep any such mention out or to a minimum. It's a miracle that there is any content on the subject now, and it is in danger all the time. When one considers due weight among RS, that section should be larger and better.
The AR-15 style rifle article is the main article on the subject, so, per WP:SPINOFF, the section on mass shootings should have a "main" link and a summary of how the AR-15 is used in mass shootings, not just a short listing of the shootings.
Thewolfchild's idea of due weight on the subject is evident in these comments:
- This one (their first on that talk page) closes the door for such content, because, apparently to them, even a morsel on the subject is somehow undue weight, so better to violate NPOV by banning such content. That (mistaken) attitude means the article on Mass shootings is a forbidden POV fork, because that's the essence of a POV fork...banishing unwanted content to "somewhere else than here":
- After a lot about statistics and other stuff in several comments, this gem shows their attitude toward the proper weight of any mass shooting related content. They fail to recognize that due weight is determined by RS coverage, not by number of guns used legally vs illegally. The few mosquitoes that bite get attention, not the millions that remain unnoticed.:
- The log for the AR-15 article shows Thewolfchild edit warring in favor of a title that is an advertising slogan/marketing term (a form of whitewashing), thus setting the tone that this is a peaceful tool, not "the favorite weapon for mass shootings". I'm not going to analyze whether the moves were done properly or not, but the title "Modern sporting rifle" is in fact a marketing slogan deliberately chosen by manufacturers to rebrand the unfortunate image of the AR-15. Editors should not be party to such rebranding efforts. The slogan is mentioned in the article, and that's enough.
SUMMARY: The article should have a better section on the use of the AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings, and some editors are blocking that strongly enough that I quickly abandoned the thought of trying. That's my concern. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:29, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Pinging the relevant admins. @Dennis Brown, MastCell, Sandstein, GoldenRing, NeilN, and Bishonen: -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Dennis Brown, I'm not sure what you're referring to here ("YOU may feel that those edits should be made,..."), because I'm not asking for any edits to be made. Neither is this about "hash[ing] out controversial topics". Neither of those subjects belong here.
- No, this is about something much more principle and basic. It's about total failure to understand NPOV and due weight, to the point of controlling an article so much that news media noticed it. That kind of control must not be allowed, and normal editing procedures and "hashing it out" apparently hasn't worked very well. A topic block, even a shorter one, would send a needed signal to all editors involved in this type of ownership behavior.
- As far as my behavior in that one instance, you have either not read what has been written by NeilN and myself (see above), or you are not AGF. I trust it is the first and you'll amend your comment, because I doubt you are deliberately trying to offend me. We both explained what was going on. Under the circumstances, with media looking over our shoulders, a reminder needed to be given, and that's all I was doing (I was totally new to that article). (The edit at the time ended up getting sorted out and has not been brought up here BY ME as an issue. I was surprised someone brought it up and tried to make something out of it that it wasn't.) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mandruss
I am uninvolved in the content issues, but on 19 February I somehow ran across behavior that I felt needed to be called out, and I did so. I think I'm the "another contributor" mentioned at "Additional comments" and my one comment can be seen at that "permalink". I believe that my characterization "imperious and combative tone" is supported by that brief exchange. Beyond saying that I feel that tolerance of such behavior is bad for the project, I have nothing to add. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
@Dennis Brown: - a little friction is sometimes beneficial to hash out controversial topics.
- I would be very interested to see an example of how misapplication of WP:AGF against a debate opponent while violating AGF oneself, or how language like do you even know that means?
... This discussion has barely begun and you're already derailing it with repetitive, off-topic nonsense.
... Stop this already.
... Oh puh-leeeze.
... you and your companion
... blah, blah. blah. Give it a rest. It's these kind of prechy, off-topic comments that constantly derail any meaningful discussion. You've contributed nothing to the topic at hand and the only purpose of this, your sole contribution here, is to scold me.
has ever helped to hash out a controversial topic. In my view it has the opposite effect. This is quite different from healthy and constructive heated debate—it's about common respect for fellow established editors. Excuse, minimize, and forgive if you must, but please don't call this in any way "beneficial" to this project. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Follow-up by K.e.coffman
Sorry, I'm not buying TWC's statement. For example, on 24 February TWC stated on my Talk page: "I haven't even been active on the WP:GUNS page, AR-15 style page or the Village Pump RfC for awhile now. I've moved on to other things. Maybe you should to (or don't. you can do what you like, just know that I'm not interested in being involved)": [65]
Despite a stated desire of not "being involved", TWC edited the Talk page of AR-15 style rifle 40+ times between Feb 24 and now. (I edited the page 11 times, mostly after March 8. I had purposefully stayed away because of high level of activity by TWC there).
Even while this AE was in process, TWC posted the following the Talk page of AR-15: "TBH, I wasn't planning on posting here for awhile (what else is there to say? either people will keep the article neutral or they won't). But given the your comments here, I will reply (...) What I have said, repeatedly, is that any inclusion of such content should be neutral and keep the article balanced.", in 3000 characters: [66].
What this is telling me is (1) that TWC does not have an intention of abandoning AR-15 and related pages, and (2) he continues to lack self-awareness as to why his editing there may have been problematic. He repeatedly stated his desire for "balance" and for the articles not to get "waaay out of balance", but his actions have been anything but.
TWC continues to bludgeon discussions, now posting possibly mistaken stats to the on-going RfC that's related to this topic: [67]. He's been corrected here:[68]; while his response is not convincing: [69]. TWC's participation in AR-15, firearms and related topics has only sows discord and confusion to this point. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
I'm going to start with a disclaimer: I'm involved with the topics and from an editorial/content POV largely agree with Thewolfchild. That also means I've largely disagreed with most of the other involved editors. I think TWC is frustrated with the deluge of edits that seem to be POV driven. I generally agree with the scope concerns that TWC seems to have. There is definitely a content dispute element here. BUT... I think all the editors here, are only pushing what they view as good improvements and pushing to increase the part of the content they feel is most significant with respect to the topic. I've seen some failures to AGF on both sides with claims of tarring, white washing, advocacy etc. I'm sure much of that comes down to this being a topic that means different things to different people. A shooting enthusiast is far more likely to see the technical and mechanical details etc as the significant part of the article. The criminal use part is something that should be mentioned then directed off to the primary articles on that subject. Others feel the significant information is the criminal use, the rest is just stuff only the gun nuts care about. Both simply reflect the editor's honest POV. It also doesn't help that the articles have been subject to many edits that are little more than vandalism. We also have the inflammatory yet factually questionable article in the Verge (mentioned by @MastCell: ). I suspect most involved editors were, as I was, asked by the author a nebulous question just 24 hours before the article went out. I didn't reply. The resulting article was just a poor as I expected it would be and gets the fundamentals wrong in a way that allows for a good conspiracy tail rather than something that represents a series of editorial discussions that go back perhaps 2 years. In the end we have an editing environment that is ripe for discontent. I think TWC needs to tone it down but I don't think this is something that needs more than a warning. Again, disclaimer, I'm an involved editor and have generally agreed with TWC's POV on the articles. Springee (talk) 02:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Result concerning Thewolfchild
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I just don't see a reason to swing the ban hammer here. In a perfect world, Wolf would be more concise and bit less excited, and perhaps they would be a little more polite sometimes, but being passionate about something isn't ban-worthy. If I were the other editors, yes, I might be a little annoyed at times but that is true on any hot topic page. Looking the diffs in their full context, I see spirited debate on both sides, maybe a little boundary pushing but I don't see any bright lines crossed. The long block log and the magazine articles don't really apply here. Looking at Talk:AR-15 style rifle, I see that Wolff had replied about twice as much as K.e.coffman, which really isn't enough to be considered bludgeoning. As he seems to be in the minority on that page, that makes me more understanding of the extra edits, and less prone to just banhammer him without clear evidence of disruption. Controversial topics are going to have friction on the talk page, this can't be avoided, even if it can be managed. I recommend closing with no action, other than to recommend that Wolf pull back a bit and go the extra mile here to avoid rambling on so much, and to avoid incivility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:03, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Dennis, but I can't agree with you about closing with no action. There is a real problem here. The diffs and discussions linked by K.e. coffman show a pretty evident battleground attitude. Thewolfchild's actions (and, to a lesser extent, those of other WikiProject members) have been described as an effort to subvert WP:NPOV by downplaying material linking AR-15-style weapons to mass shootings. That description seems entirely plausible, having reviewed the editing in question. External reliable sources have already come to the same conclusion (see BullRangifer's statement). So these actions not only subvert fundamental content policies (by stonewalling appropriately sourced content in the service of an evident political agenda), but also have brought Wikipedia into disrepute. (I don't attach a lot of weight to DailyKos, any more than I would to a partisan website from the other end of the political spectrum, but the pieces in the other two sources are concerning).
If this were an isolated incident, then I think a warning would be appropriate. But it looks like Thewolfchild has been blocked 6 previous times, for various combinations of edit-warring, personal attacks, "incendiary" and combative behavior, and so on. He was indefinitely blocked, in fact, and let off with the promise of good behavior, in 2012. In other words, he used up his last chance six years ago, and some more last chances after that. So I don't see this as an opportunity to give him one more last chance.
There's a well-documented active conduct issue here, and a well-documented pattern of similar behavior stretching back at least 6 years. There's also absolutely zero evidence that Thewolfchild has any insight into the problem, and thus zero reason to expect improvement in his conduct. (His responses in this discussion were particularly disappointing in this regard.
When an article is under discretionary sanctions, we should be trying to raise the bar and hold editors to appropriate standards, not finding reasons to give disruptive editors a 7th "last chance". I don't think "no action" is acceptable. Given the track record here, a warning is meaningless, and tantamount to "no action". I would favor an indefinite topic ban from firearms-related material, which could be appealed in 6 months. MastCell Talk 22:46, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- There is a history of problem behavior, but what I don't see is recent behavior that is ban-worthy. It isn't about giving another chance, it's about accepting there is going to be some disagreement on the talk pages. I don't see edit warring, I don't see personal attacks, so I am not so likely to get involved. There is a fine line between protecting the integrity of the process, and being a school marm. I don't think using DS tools for relatively minor issues is helping the encyclopedia. And an indef topic
blockban where someone has never been topicblockedbanned seems excessive, to say the least. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:28, 11 March 2018 (UTC)- Thewolfchild has been blocked 6 times already, including an indefinite block. An indefinite topic ban would be neither the first sanction he’s received, nor the harshest. I therefore don’t see it as “excessive”. As for being a “school marm”, I can tell you first-hand—as someone with extensive experience editing contentious topics—that this sort of behavior is far more damaging than you seem to realize when you dismiss it as “minor”. MastCell Talk 21:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- But in the issue at hand, with the diffs provided, there isn't a major issue. Some minor incivility but no worse than the others, and an obvious POV but haven't opinions on social issues isn't against against policies, bad editing is, and even that isn't being called into question here, just his behavior. GoldenRing sums it up well below. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thewolfchild has been blocked 6 times already, including an indefinite block. An indefinite topic ban would be neither the first sanction he’s received, nor the harshest. I therefore don’t see it as “excessive”. As for being a “school marm”, I can tell you first-hand—as someone with extensive experience editing contentious topics—that this sort of behavior is far more damaging than you seem to realize when you dismiss it as “minor”. MastCell Talk 21:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- There is a history of problem behavior, but what I don't see is recent behavior that is ban-worthy. It isn't about giving another chance, it's about accepting there is going to be some disagreement on the talk pages. I don't see edit warring, I don't see personal attacks, so I am not so likely to get involved. There is a fine line between protecting the integrity of the process, and being a school marm. I don't think using DS tools for relatively minor issues is helping the encyclopedia. And an indef topic
- @Dennis Brown: We don't have anything called "topic blocks", but we do have topic bans. – My view is somewhere in between the two opinions above. While I agree that systematic tendentious editing to make Wikipedia non-neutral is sanctionable, that's not what the evidence concerning Thewolfchild before us establishes, and any AE cases on such a basis need to be very clear-cut to prevent AE from interfering in content disputes. But what is before us is evidence of confrontative, battleground-like conduct by Thewolfchild. Still, it is less serious than many other cases we see here at AE, many of the diffs do seem to be related to content issues rather than purely personal disagreements, and Thewolfchild's response is, while noncommittal and overlong, at least indicative of some recognition that their conduct might not be perfect. I would close this with a logged warning to Thewolfchild to observe WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and related conduct policies. Sandstein 09:38, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Having read about 4/5 of the linked talk page, I'm not seeing a case for sanctions here. Yes, Thewolfchild has a clear POV but much of their frustration is with editors who make edits to the article and ignore the ongoing discussions about the same or similar material. It's a fair point. They do sometimes tread the edges of personalising the discussion but, IMO, only at the very mildest end of things. At the other end, sections such as this are IMO examples of very good editor behaviour. The only real problem I'm seeing is the voluminous and tangential nature of some of Thewolfchild's comments and I'd advise them to keep more on-track, but again it's not sanction-worthy at this point.On a side note, the worst thing I'm seeing on that TP is this comment by User:BullRangifer and I'd like to hear what they have to say about it. It looks pretty unacceptable to me. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I largely agree with Sandstein - Thewolfchild needs to tone it down a bit. I don't see anything sanctionable or warning-worthy about BullRangifer's comment. --NeilN talk to me 13:51, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Nor do I, unless one considers the invocation of the NRA's wrath a legal or physical threat, but this seems far-fetched to me. Sandstein 14:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I can't see any way of interpreting that comment that doesn't amount to, "Let my edit stand or else!" It's clearly intended to have a chilling effect on other editors. And yes, if someone threatened me with the NRA I'd take it as a physical threat. GoldenRing (talk) 16:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see that. At all. --NeilN talk to me 17:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see BullRangifer's comment as actionable by itself, but I do see it as unnecessarily combative and " I fear for the poor editor who is responsible, because the NRA won't be happy that they have drawn attention to the issue." as particularly trout-worthy. Worse than what I was seeing from Wolf, but it was one comment only, so I tend to let a singular fit of emotionalism slide. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not saying anyone is shilling for the NRA but there is not a lot of difference for me between BullRangifer's comment and an experienced editor telling a SPA editing a politician's bio, "I don't think your boss would thank you for drawing community attention to and possible media interest in your whitewashing of his biography." --NeilN talk to me 19:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
← It seems that consensus is leaning toward either a logged warning or an informal word-to-the-wise to Thewolfchild, so I'm not going to continue pushing for a more substantial sanction. I do remain concerned by a few things:
- This editor was part of what external reliable sources identified (correctly, in my view) as a coordinated, partisan effort to "hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle";
- Constructive editors familiar with the situation (Mandruss and dlthewave) are telling us that Thewolfchild's behavior is disruptive; and
- I see zero insight on Thewolfchild's part (see this discussion, or his statement here at AE, where he closes by vicariously praising his own manners and reasoning skills).
But I'm fine with whatever closure the rest of the group agrees on. MastCell Talk 23:20, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry to be slow, but I do want to comment too. I find it difficult, because it concerns an aspect of American culture that's baffling to me as a non-American. But I'm still reading, so please don't close just yet. Bishonen | talk 09:30, 13 March 2018 (UTC).
- Continued. Yes, the U.S. gun culture is baffling to me, and likely to most Europeans, and seemingly to increasing numbers of Americans as well. I found this opinion piece, America Is the Gun, with its historical perspective ("We have venerated the gun and valorized its usage") somewhat enlightening. Anyway, despite the fact that we have a 2014 RFAR case about gun control, and consequently have discretionary sanctions, it's apparently very difficult to sanction editors who work to keep our gun articles purely technical, and to keep societal issues out of them (seemingly on the argument that only the technical is neutral). This effort is harming Wikipedia's reputation IMO, compare BullRangifer's links. I'm not saying that Thewolfchild is a kingpin in this effort, but I do regard them as part of it, and their claim of strict neutrality is unconvincing. I agree with MastCell about noting zero insight on Thewolfchild's part, and for that reason I'm in favour of either a topic ban (first choice) or a strongly-worded, and definitely logged, warning. Specifically, I'm unimpressed by their post on this board. Superficially Thewolfchild comes here with conciliation, offering concern lest they have "upset" K.e.coffman; but a reading of the diffs they offer as proof that they love to be nice, if only K.e.coffman wasn't so unreasonable, says something else.[70][71]. And to further prove how neutral they are, they showcase a polite response from another editor ("
Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses.
") about a comparatively minor matter, namely that the article is US-centric — not exactly one of the hot-button issues. No, I don't see Thewolfchild showing awareness or doing any introspecting, I see them digging in, and arranging their countenance pleasantly when so many admins are watching. As for being nice enough not to raise any counter-complaints against K.e.coffman, Thewolfchild, if you have any complaints against K.e.coffman, why not raise them? Saying that you won't, "in hopes of moving forward", thereby implying that you could, is a rhetorical device that doesn't convince me. This conflict — the whole gun control conflict, I mean — is too important to be hurried off the AE board merely in the interest of 'moving on' and 'not dragging things out'. Please raise any complaints you may have against K.e.coffman.
- P.S. Going to post, I noticed K.e.coffman has now posted an update, right at the end of the "Discussion concerning Thewolfchild", just above the Results section. Possibly not the best place for it, but nm, it's interesting. I agree with K.e.coffman that the new diffs, representing recent posts by Thewolfchild, do show that they continue to lack self-awareness as to why their editing on gun-related pages is problematic. Example: here's one long comment they posted on Talk:AR-15 style rifle only about an hour after posting their self-praising defence on this board. I quote: "
But basically, they're not intended for killing people. They're based on a Mil/LE design that is, but the civilian variant is not. That said, of course it's lethal. So are cars. And Bic lighters (literally and figuratively). And a staggeringly long list of other items that can be used to kill a person. So what?"
Reading that gun nut trope about the cars and the Bic lighters, posted just an hour after Thewolfchild posted here that "My position's been neither 'pro- or anti-gun', but instead to push for articles to remain neutral, balanced, encyclopaedic
", it's my opinion that there's just no self-awareness or introspection at all in the Thewolfchild's defence here. Would the uninvolved admins please take a look at K.e.coffman's new diffs? I now feel more strongly that a topic ban is the way to go. Bishonen | talk 18:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC).
- It strikes me that it might have been better to ping the relevant admins. @Dennis Brown, MastCell, Sandstein, GoldenRing, and NeilN: would you care to take a look at K.e.coffman's new diffs here, that I discuss above? Bishonen | talk 22:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC).
- I think I should recuse myself from acting or proposing action with respect to K.e.coffman's diffs, because they appear to relate, in part, to an RfC in which I expressed an opinion. Sandstein 23:33, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- P.S. Going to post, I noticed K.e.coffman has now posted an update, right at the end of the "Discussion concerning Thewolfchild", just above the Results section. Possibly not the best place for it, but nm, it's interesting. I agree with K.e.coffman that the new diffs, representing recent posts by Thewolfchild, do show that they continue to lack self-awareness as to why their editing on gun-related pages is problematic. Example: here's one long comment they posted on Talk:AR-15 style rifle only about an hour after posting their self-praising defence on this board. I quote: "
- I've noted he has a bit too much zeal at time, and I can see why a warning might be a good idea, but my original observations are still pretty much the same as I feel now. These are very controversial topics, there is going to be friction. I would even argue a little friction can be helpful. Wolf does need to post less often and be more concise when he posts, but if it is a matter of "good faith", I'm not convinced his faith is an issue, even if his style is less than desirable. I get it that this is AE, and this is a politically charged topic, but if this was a normal topic at ANI, it would be closed quickly without action. The threshold is a bit different here, but I don't support strong sanctions. I would say that if a month or two down the line, he hasn't learned to trim down the comments, then we have a pattern of mild distruption due to being too verbose. That is a pretty weak place to stand, but that is what it would be, and maybe it would be actionable. What I would like to see is for Wolf to agree to pull back some. Again, he is active on the page, but I wouldn't call that WP:BLUDGEONing (and I wrote that essay, I know bludgeoning when I see it). He can be overly verbose, but that isn't the same thing. Finally, anyone who disagrees with anyone on these highly charged topics is going to piss off the other side, so complaints have to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see a lot of name calling or personal attacks, and in fact, most of the time his comments are proportionate and reasoned. I just don't feel right swinging the ban hammer in a case like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Holding until a possible further reply from Thewolfchild. I may be jaded from adminning in the American Politics area but I've seen similar voluminous postings from some of the editors in that area (with the personalization toned down since many articles now have a civility restriction in effect) and life goes on there. Have there been other issues with this editor and the gun area prior to Stoneman Douglas? --NeilN talk to me 00:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- BullRangifer, YOU may feel that those edits should be made, but that isn't an issue for WP:AE, that is a content issue. Not everyone will agree with you on that, and we can't really decide that as an administrative function. We can only deal with behavior, and the behavior here (and by others, even yourself in at least one edit) is less than stellar but not sanctionable. That's ok, as I said, a little friction is sometimes beneficial to hash out controversial topics. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)