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*:::{{ping|DHeyward}}, you're kidding, right? Take a look at [[Special:PermaLink/822486386|the page right before Coffee changed the notice]] - third notice, second bullet: {{tq|Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).}} so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited [[Template:Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions|the sanction template]], which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
*:::{{ping|DHeyward}}, you're kidding, right? Take a look at [[Special:PermaLink/822486386|the page right before Coffee changed the notice]] - third notice, second bullet: {{tq|Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).}} so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited [[Template:Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions|the sanction template]], which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*::::To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
*::::To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Decline''' the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:18, 26 January 2018
Greggens
Greggens topic banned for one month from all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Also topic banned for six months from topics involving Elizabeth Warren, broadly construed. --NeilN talk to me 04:15, 19 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Greggens
This user is apparently deeply convinced that Elizabeth Warren is an impostor, and absolutely insistent that Wikipedia must factually describe her as an impostor. This is despite the fact that reliable sources do not do so, and thus we cannot. They have come up with a million and one excuses and demands, and have ignored multiple editors explaining to them why they cannot do what they seek to do. I am asking that this editor be topic-banned indefinitely from anything have to do with Elizabeth Warren, as their edits are contrary to basic content policies and are wasting the time of other editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning GreggensStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by GreggensRecently, one of my good faith edits has been reverted based on one user's opinion of what constitutes a "violation" of Wikipedia policy. User: NorthBySouthBaranof has been telling me lately that Elizabeth Warren does not belong in Category:Impostors based on his/her interpretation of WP:SYNTH. While I respect this person's point of view on the matter, I have not ignored what he/she or any other editors have told me about this subject. I have merely offered rebuttals, listing reasons why I believe my original edit adding the Warren article to "Impostors" was not a violation of policy. The edit in question was based partly on information written in sources already cited in the article, and partly on common sense definitions of the word "impostor." NorthBySouthBaranof's opinion is based solely on personal interpretation of policy, not on concrete fact. For example, this user claims that putting the article in the Impostors category would be inappropriate because "No reliable source here calls her an impostor." Since when does the media have to use a term on a given politician before Wikipedians can have permission to use that exact same term on that exact same politician? For the record, I have not attempted to restore the disputed edit; rather, I have sought consensus as to what should be done. Also, I have not made any edits to any page which I have been explicitly told not to edit. If I believed that an edit I was about to make was against Wikipedia policy, I would not make that edit. So far, the only comments that I see are from those involved with the "Impostor?" discussion on Talk:Elizabeth Warren. By rule, results concerning me are only to be made by uninvolved admins. These charges are frivolous, unfounded, and unwarranted. Please rescind them. If you don't want me to categorize this article under "Impostors," then fine. I won't put the article in that category. No need to impose any sanctions. Greggens (talk) 04:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Greggens
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KU2018
Blocked as a sockpuppet. Discussion about enforcing discretionary sanctions can continue elsewhere if desired. --NeilN talk to me 01:27, 20 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning KU2018
(Note Breitbart News is subject to editing restrictions. See Template:Editnotices/Page/Breitbart News
This editor is also repeatedly adding poorly-sourced content to BLP Alex Jones. See recent history and warnings: 1, 2.- MrX 🖋 13:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Despite of multiple warnings and being reviewed at WP:AE, this user continues to insert the same content that violates WP:BLPSOURCES and WP:RS: [1][2][3][4]
Discussion concerning KU2018Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by KU2018I first removed the text, which I shouldn't have done. However, I realised when going on to the talk page that I was wrong to do this. Earlier today I put in a compromise - putting the 'far right' label further down the page. This helped restructure the sections of the lead. I did not remove the far right label on the second and third edit, as stated in this request.This was consistent (Breitbart talk archive 3) with the previously agreed consensus as this stated quite vaguely that the far right label could be used in 'some circumstances'. I reverted this once as the text was removed even though it was consistent with the consensus. I did not revert a second time as I was aware that the 1RR was there. I would not have chamged the far right wording if it was against the consensus of the discussion. I will not be editing until monday. KU2018 (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by MjolnirPantsIt is worth noting that KU2018 had previously agreed to stop pushing for this change to the article, in the face of unanimous opposition and a large opposing consensus. See this edit, dated Jan 15th. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:24, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Dr. FleischmanWhile we're on the subject of administrative sanctions... not an AE issue specifically, but KU2018's username, which refers to Kingston University per their user page, appears to be a violation of our username policy. I mentioned this on their user talk, got no response. Their user page raises meatpuppetry-related issues as well, though I see no evidence of bad faith here. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning KU2018
I'm of the view that page-level restrictions should be enforced by the administrators who impose them, in this case, Ks0stm (talk · contribs). Sandstein 14:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Greggens
Appeal declined. There is a general feeling among admins that the sanction was if anything too mild. Greggens is urged to be less combative in the sensitive areas of American politics and BLP, and to make more of an effort to listen to the concerns of other editors. Bishonen | talk 11:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC). |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by GreggensStatements that are crossed out have been withdrawn by the appellant I have always been a proponent of WP:BLP, adhering to its instructions as best as I possibly can. In fact, one of the things that I enjoy is, when I find something that is unsourced, I find a source to back it up and insert it into the appropriate article. As for my recent attempts at inserting a category or adding to a list, I misread the policy and thought I had all my ducks in a row each time. That's my bad. With respect to these edit attempts, even if there had been no sanctions imposed, I would not have restored the edit, anyway, since there was no consensus in favor of it (I believe that gaining consensus for restoring such reverted edits is one of the things that WP:BLP mentions, in WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE). To prevent future misunderstandings of WP:BLP, I'd be happy to talk with other admins about how to clarify the letter of the policy. In the meantime, I'll be more careful when exercising the liberties granted to editors, and I'll continue, as I always have, to follow the rules with respect to WP:BLP and also encourage others to do so as well.
I request that all sanctions be lifted immediately. Statement by NeilNGreggens is not new editor. In the past, their editing has almost exclusively focused on American highways, reality shows, and celebrities. This past week they've made edits to a variety of American Politics articles on controversial subjects, all problematic.
This prompted the one month AP topic ban. An editor who has been here since 2014 and with almost 3,500 edits should know better. If they don't, then they need to take the time to see what the community expects in this area. The six month Elizabeth Warren topic ban was prompted by NorthBySouthBaranof's evidence, specifically [7], [8], and [9] coming after discussion. --NeilN talk to me 04:54, 20 January 2018 (UTC) This filing at ANI also shows that despite being warned and notified, Greggens does not understand our BLP policy. "Eventually, NorthBySouthBaranof submitted a request for enforcement against me, anyway, but only after I had edited another page that wasn't a BLP (or recently-deceased person). It was merely a list article..." --NeilN talk to me 05:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC) I did look at Greggens' edits on other BLPs when developing the sanctions and they seemed for the most part gnome-work and uncontentious. Major expansions like this have minor sourcing issues at first glance but they are understandable. The Warren edits were unusual for this editor as the few major BLP edits Greggens has made are more like this. --NeilN talk to me 13:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofGreggens, you ignored those warnings by duplicating the objectionable edit on List of impostors. BLP applies to all content about living people anywhere in the encyclopedia. You cannot evade its requirements merely by moving a BLP-violating edit to some different page. This is why myself and other editors have urged you strongly to review our policies before editing in these areas — you clearly do not understand how our policies work. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Greggens
Result of the appeal by Greggens
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Ihardlythinkso
Ihardlythinkso blocked for 1 week for violation of topic ban. MastCell Talk 05:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ihardlythinkso
The purpose of the May diffs was to show that restraint was exercised by not reporting him for those violations, even those he displayed vulgar disdain for the explanations he was given. Dennis Brown I'm perplexed by your comment on several levels. I'm not aware that there are technical topic van violations and non-technical topic ban violations. Also, IHTS's comments in the AfD exhibit a profoundly-shallow, if not obtuse, understanding of what race is commonly understood to mean. When an editor starts referring to respected Journalists and fellow editors as ignorant and uneducated, the quality of the discussion goes right off a cliff. Given IHTS's colorful history of personal attacks, I think a week duration block is insufficient, but of course, that's not my department.- MrX 🖋 16:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning IhardlythinksoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Ihardlythinkso
Statement by GalobtterSo I trawled through his edits and I found these two diffs in September among the thousands of minor chess edits - "was only "shocking" to Hillary supporters, was "delightful" to Trump supporters, so tell me this isn't typical liberal WP bias, duh!" and this on Dina Powell, the U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategy to President Donald Trump. I don't know how much relevance it has being months old; just thought I'd add here, being blatant violations (and showing a pattern of violations). There's also another edit to Shooting of Kathyrn Steinle here in July. (later addendum: probably not really a violation as not editing the part of the article related to politics, though toeing the line) There's four edits to the talk page of illegal immigration in the united states (marked as being under AP2 DS) in June. first diff (another addendum: not Those are essentially all the edits that could be violations of the t-ban since June. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC) I also don't know what Dennis Brown is on about - Ihardlythinkso's statements definitely added some hostility to the debate. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Regarding those edits to Talk:Illegal Immigration - incivility of I think for repeatedly violating t-ban (blatantly too) with incivility a longer block is necessitated Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Ihardlythinkso
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Doncram
Doncram is formally warned to focus on himself and the contributions he can make on the site, casting aspersions or antagonizing other editors in any form will not be tolerated. There is no further action required at this time. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Doncram
In response to the announcement about the suspension of the Doncram case's interaction ban, Doncram promptly proceeded to attack the other party in the ban, as well attacking the same party in the discussion about case names versus numbers. When I left a note saying "this is precisely the kind of behavior prohibited in the announcement", he proceeded to attack me. Note the complete lack of evidence: you can't get a better example of WP:WIAPA point #1, Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. We routinely issue first-time blocks to editors who make this kind of attack, but Doncram's been significantly sanctioned for this precise kind of behavior in a past arbitration case, but he's still bringing up issues from five years ago to attack multiple editors. After this long, it's obvious that he'll not decide to comply with NPA. It's time to lock the door and throw away the key.
Discussion concerning DoncramStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DoncramStatement by MendalivHonestly I think part of this is post-litigation frustration, kind of like how blocked editors are sometimes given some leeway for sounding off in ways that would otherwise be sanctionable. Considering this is 100% Doncram, I am hopeful that the outcome here is just with respect to Doncram. Maybe a block, maybe a short one-way IBAN until Doncram calms, but not immediately reversing the Committee's decision to let the IBAN lapse. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DHeywardThree points:
Statement by (username)Result concerning Doncram
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Avisnacks
Block reduced to 24 hours by enforcing administrator, Avisnacks is reminded of the importance of talk page discussion when editing controversial articles. Thryduulf (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AvisnacksIn my new post, I restructured the information (which is well-sourced and as yet unreverted) in order to integrate it organically into the content of the article. My original edit was reverted because I had created a new subsection called "Is Trump a racist?" which purportedly violated the SYNTH policy. I therefore remedied the issue by integrating the material (the material itself was never an issue because it was clearly notable, relevant, and well-sourced) within the preexisting article structure. Additionally, in my new edit, I only updated the article with some of the content from my original edit. If anything, the editing process worked the way it was supposed to with the two of us editors working in concert to achieve a better article. Regardless, I have certainly learned to be more careful with edits on pages that are subject to sanction. As an editor, I have always tried to ensure that my edits draw no independent conclusions, but rather summarize conclusions reached by multiple, reliable sources. I will continue to endeavor to do the same. Statement by CoffeeThis was a clear violation of the consensus required restriction; what's worse is that just hours before violating the restriction, they had been directly notified on their talkpage that DS applied in the area. The editnotice was clear as it could possibly be (and they were not editing on a mobile device, so they undoubtedly saw it): consensus is required before reinstating any challenged edit. The user even here states that they reinstated challenged material; I don't think they could have made it any clearer that they deliberately refused to follow the sanctions system in place. Therefore, I strictly oppose any lifting of this sanction. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AvisnacksResult of the appeal by Avisnacks
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Anythingyouwant
Appeal declined. Topic ban extended back to its original duration of a month. Sandstein 21:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AnythingyouwantRequesting that sanction be lifted because the imposing administrator (User:Coffee) sanctioned me not for any edit I made, but rather for mere edit summary language that I used. That edit summary language was not unreasonable much less sanctionable. Coffee acknowledged at my user talk: "You are correct that I have no issue with the edits themselves, it is the connotation that the summaries carried with them."[19] A week-long topic ban for a connotation?
The net effect of the two edits was to move a new BLP section to another spot in the BLP. Please feel free to consider it as a single edit if you like, instead of two separate edits (I did it in two separate edits because it was easiest, selecting and cutting the whole section, saving, then going elsewhere in the BLP to paste). My edit summaries simply expressed my opinion that no one should put the material back in the original spot without consensus, because the discretionary sanctions for this BLP say "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." I felt that I was challenging the placement of this section by reverting it, given that, "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert."[20] User:Coffee disagreed that consensus would be needed to put the material back in the location from which I removed it, and I am more than happy to abide by Coffee's interpretation in the future (despite disagreeing with it), but I don't see why merely giving my honest opinion in an edit summary warrants a sanction. I am grateful, however, that Coffee reduced the sanction from a month to a week. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
FOR THE RECORD, I just want to provide this link to various instances in which moving material in an article was deemed to be a "revert" of the prior arrangement. I fully intend to completely disregard those precedents in the future, and will feel free to rearrange material within articles as much as I want, given that people here in this AE proceeding think its preposterous to consider such a thing as a revert. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by CoffeeThe topic-ban was shortened by 3 weeks as I believed from my conversations with the editor that they actually understood how the edits they made were an attempt to game the page restrictions in effect. I can see now that was a fruitless choice, and that they in no way have changed from the mindset that got them banned. - Anythingyouwant is mischaracterizing the reason for his current topic ban as if I had only ever blocked him for making an edit summary. Let me state emphatically: This is not true; he was banned for making disruptive edits (which happened to contain misleading summaries, if not purposefully so, about the content of said edits). The page restrictions and the WP:ARBAP2 ruling allow for administrators to choose sanctions based on their discretion which the administrator finds will remove or deter disruption in all pages relating to post-1932 American politics. These sanctions are not limited to only the 1RR restriction nor the consensus required restriction, and in this case the offending edit fell under neither. The offending edits were the cause of a sanction because the editor was clearly attempting to game the page restrictions in effect by attempting to make a move of data (via two consecutive edits) be considered a challenge of the data (something only available via reversion), which no reasonable person could construe the edit to be, as it did not revert nor remove any data that had been added in any previous edit. Their choice of a misleading edit summary was only part of the evidence, it was not the entirety of it. Their ban notice states the following even:
Statement by MrXThis appeal should be declined. Anythingyouwant's edit appears to have been engineered to circumvent page editing restrictions while forcing his preferred edit over consensus. Several editors, including myself, believe this is but another example of Anythingyouwant attempting to WP:GAME the system. Coffee has already agreed to reduce the sanction out of what I assume is an abundance of good faith. It's pretty brazen to ask for it to be completely lifted.- MrX 🖋 00:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN(Disclosure: I am involved at that article, and was involved in this very issue, so I am speaking as a regular editor and not an admin.) I can’t believe Anythingyouwant is appealing Coffee’s generous reduction of the topic ban from a month to a week. Here’s the incident that triggered things: At the Donald Trump article, there was a discussion about moving the “Public profile” section to a different place in the article. Anything favored moving it. Two days into the discussion, with consensus not reached, Anything pulled what I described as a “cute trick”, a two-part move based on attempts to game the DS sanctions. First he deleted the “Public profile” section from the article, with the edit summary Per talk page discussion, I am going ahead and challenging the recent insertion of this material by reverting it. One minute later he reinserted the section into the position where he wanted it to go, with the edit summary Per talk page, inserting profile info lower in BLP. Feel free to revert this particular edit, but consensus would be needed (per DS) to insert it elsewhere in the BLP. The removal was obviously not a real challenge to the material, since he restored it to the article immediately. Based on his edit summaries, he apparently thought he could make his move irreversible, by claiming that no one else could restore material he had deleted - but HE could. SPECIFICO called it to Coffee’s attention. Coffee told him to self-revert both edits or face sanctions for gaming the AE restrictions.[23] Anything said he would revert the second edit but not the first.[24] Coffee then issued a one-month topic ban for “your refusal to understand the proper use of the page restrictions, and for a clear attempt to game them”.[25] Anything’s various conflicting explanations for what he was doing and what he intended can be seen on his talk page, along with his appeal to Coffee, who ultimately decided to “give him the benefit of the doubt” and reduce the topic ban to 1 week.[26] And here we are. MelanieN (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DHeywardThis appears to be a misunderstanding. The wording on the template is that "edit" must be challenged by reversion. Coffee has interpreted that to mean content rather than placement. It appears that Anythingyouwant and Coffee have come to a mutual understanding and Coffee has given him the benefit of the doubt of their interpretations. That should mean lifting the sanction completely since understanding is what protects while leaving it shortened just punishes. A short sanction doesn't really serve the purpose if there is understanding by all parties. Really, all it does is provide "blood in the water" that attracts adversaries advocating punishment. If retained, I expect at least 1 AE request to appear here if Anythingyouwant edits anything as the criteria for complaining is extraordinarily low and unlike ANI, there is never a boomerang. --DHeyward (talk) 01:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by AwilleyHaving followed most of the events leading up to this via my normal talk page stalking, I find myself basically seconding what User:MelanieN said. "Cute trick" and "gaming" are good descriptions of invoking the do-not-restore discretionary sanctions in the section move. If the user didn't already have an extensive history of working with these sanctions (warning and reporting other editors, being warned and reported themselves, and being sanctioned on occasion) I would object that the topic ban was too harsh, but I don't think a week-long break from Donald Trump will hurt too much in this case. ~Awilley (talk) 06:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by MastCellSequence of events:
To be clear, not only should the topic ban remain in force, but it should be extended to its original length of 1 month. The topic ban was reduced on the basis of false representations by Anythingyouwant; he told Coffee what he wanted to hear, but clearly didn't mean it, given the substance of this appeal. Moreover, there must be some sort of exponential irony at work here: Anythingyouwant is trying to game the system in an appeal over a sanction for gaming the system. He has a track record more than a decade long of this sort of behavior, documented all the way up to ArbCom, which I will rehash if anyone is serious about actually dealing with it in this venue. Failing that, at a minimum the original topic ban duration should be restored and no admin should extend any credibility to his promises of good behavior in the future, on the basis of his actions here. Disclosure: I am commenting here as an involved editor, rather than as an admin. While I have no editorial involvement in the dispute at hand, I have about 10 years' worth of negative experiences dealing with Anythingyouwant's consistent and well-documented efforts to bend and break Wikipedia policy in service of his personal agenda, so I'm not able to speak impartially in an administrative role where he is concerned. MastCell Talk 19:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOI endorse Sandstein's suggestion you consider reinstating the full month TBAN. 2 tries at getting this undone have only made more clear the underlying problem. Arbcom called for escalating sanctions with repeat infractions. This is at least #3 by my count. Anyone want to go through another one of these AE threads and appeals again soon? SPECIFICO talk 20:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AnythingyouwantResult of the appeal by Anythingyouwant
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Racassidy54
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Racassidy54
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Racassidy54 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms##Casting_aspersions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- April 16, 2014: WP:COI, example among others of citing themself. Discussion on talk page shows they try to sell chlordane detection and remediation products.
- [33][34] Jan 22-23, 2018: 1RR violation along with this restoring WP:MEDRS and WP:MOS violations.
- [35][36][37][38] Jan 24, 2018: More 1RR violations with casting aspersions in edit summaries.
- Jan 2017 and 2018 More casting aspersions about COI when editor was confronted about their own COI.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is mostly an WP:SPA issue at chlordane, a pesticide. At first I thought this was just a newcomer issue, but it looks like the issues go beyond being able to talk an editor through Wikipedia processes. The direct DS related issues are the 1RR and casting aspersions issues in diffs above. Within that, this editor has been restoring non-MEDRS sources and MOS violations through edit warring while making an appeal to being an expert whenever editors try to show them the edit was not appropriate: With my broad background/knowledge on chlordane and its health effects I am a leading expert. Justifications for these edit removals, on wikipedia for a year, are not true.
[39]. This editor identifies their real-life identity on their user pages, which reveals they are trying to cite their own primary journal articles in the article, and as Smokefoot pointed out, that they also market chlordane detection and remediation products.[40] This is a pretty clear COI related to chlordane in addition to the editor acting way too close to the topic even from a WP:EXPERT standpoint.
They've also been casting aspersions towards editors that either bring up their COI or edits with comments like One should mindful of the potential conflict of interest (COI) by the chlordane industry to minimize the health effects of chlordane. Go to PubMed and see all the health-related research. Question motives of editors who give employment or publications . . . Editors who text delete should give employment and publications in UserTalk page
[41]. Cassidy was also warned for this by Edgar181 a second time after they were cautioned about this as part of the WP:ASPERSIONS principle in the DS notification.
I'm not a fan of handing out topic-bans, especially to relatively new editors, but a narrow topic-ban on chlordane-related topics may be needed for this SPA given that they've been getting cautions for over a year about slowing down without stopping. I'd hope that would force them to learn the ropes in a non-COI area where they hopefully won't be so hot-headed like we've seen here. I'm open to other suggestions, but it doesn't look like the route of trying to explain things to this editor (especially how we ask WP:EXPERT editors to act) is working. This kind of confrontational attitude is whatwe've been trying to keep out of this DS topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- Just asking for clarification if this goes the route of probation, but since this editor has a COI (beyond an expert editor citing their own work), they are already expected not to directly edit the article and only use the talk page. Is that more or less the intent people are having with the probation idea? Otherwise, the topic ban is functionally similar to what would happen otherwise, though the probation gives a little more room to learn (but also more opportunity to tug a fairly short rope in the topic). Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Also just in case it was missed in the timeline, the first two set of diffs are indeed before the DS notification (though still disruptive behavior), but the second 1RR violation and aspersions were after the notification. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Racassidy54
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Racassidy54
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Racassidy54
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Racassidy54, if I take you at your word as an expert on chlordane, then thanks for editing. However, you need to conform to the expectations at Wikipedia when it comes to behavior. Most of this activity came before a proper Arb notice was posted, but some of it was completely pointless, like the reverts with Ed. The problem I often find with "experts" in any field is they often know a topic very well, but perhaps to a point that they are inflexible when it comes to dealing with others in a collaborative environment. Expert or not, you are on the same footing as me or any other editor when it comes to the topic of chlordane, and I freely admit no knowledge. Still, we are equals. That expertise doesn't allow you to force your edits to an article. It is best used to persuade others to your point of view on the talk page. Even if your edits are the "truth", we build this encyclopedia by consensus, not by what one man thinks the truth is. This feels more like an ANI case than an AE case, so let me offer you this: choose your words carefully, don't cast aspersions about others, USE THE TALK PAGE. And while I'm here, if you want to add a citation to your own published works: Don't. Put it on the talk page, tell others where you would like it inserted, and let them decide. Then be sure to admit you have a COI on your user page. Even I have a COI statement on my user page. Most people have a COI when it comes to one thing or another. Of course, my speech here doesn't stop any other admin from coming in and sanctioning you (either as an AE or plain Admin action). Before I would opt for that, I am curious to hear how you want to move forward. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think a topic ban for actions that happened before they were informed of the Arb case would be too strong. Not saying it won't happen eventually, but I don't see that they had fair warning for us to take such a strong action today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Coffee, perhaps limiting them to the talk page on this article (or any article on the same topic) for a month while they get up to speed on how we do things. They obviously have some skills, albeit not necessarily social ones. If they can learn the ropes while still participating in limited way, there is a chance we can gain a useful editor. Honestly, they could use just a little mentoring. Regardless of how we approach probation, it is a better solution than outright tbanning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is a WP:SPA with a WP:COI. Both are problematic. I suggest a chlordane topic ban until they prove that they can make useful contributions to other topics in a collegial manner. Sandstein 22:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
- With these many issues easily identifiable, I believe what's in order is an indefinite topic ban from all things that can be broadly construed to do with chlordane. Violations of this topic-ban should result in a first block of a week in length followed by escalations from there if necessary. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: Perhaps we can use the rarely utilized Probation (supervised editing) editing restriction here?
The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC) - Then mark me down as for the editor being placed on probation, as this seems the best way forward here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: Perhaps we can use the rarely utilized Probation (supervised editing) editing restriction here?
- I could see the probation being worth a shot. Having dealt with massive disruption from self-styled experts in longevity topics, this isn't rising nearly to that level; go with it and anything that goes awry from there will be easy to handle, and if nothing does then we have an expert editing in the field. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Probation is an obscure remedy and is hardly ever used. (Check WP:DSLOG). You may have to explain probation both to the user and to any future admins. (Explaining bans is hard enough). Why not just close with a warning: if User:Racassidy54 makes any further reverts on the topic of chlordane (without getting talk page consensus first) they may be banned from the topic by any administrator. EdJohnston (talk) 20:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Given this edit made about three hours ago, with no attempt to address issues here, I support an indefinite topic ban from Chlordane, broadly construed. --NeilN talk to me 21:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
The Rambling Man
No action. GoldenRing (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Rambling Man
I'm not sure if this rant against the behavior, competency and/or motivations of one or more arbitrators violates this remedy or is just seriously WP:POLEMIC, but it seems to serve no good purpose other than to spread FUD about ARBCOM without anything to back it up.
Discussion concerning The Rambling ManStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Rambling ManI'm glad this has been brought to the attention of Arbcom as a whole, the community deserves a response to the behaviour that I have described there. As for it coming under any active sanction of mine, not a chance. Another "problem" with interpreting the words of the sanction methinks. As for "fear, uncertainty and doubt", yes that's actually real now, just see Alex Shih's talkpage and Coffee's talkpage where it's made clear that Arbcom are discussing the behvaiours of at least one editor with no case or sanctions or proceedings to necessitate it. That, folks, is requirement creep. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by MendalivI encourage no action here. It's a legitimate complaint about the Committee. Though I don't agree with the complaint, legitimate complaints about Wikipedia processes shouldn't be sanctionable. This is entirely separate from the objections that can (and should) be levied against the vague, inarticulate wording of the sanction that's in place. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 05:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by EEngI very much disapprove of TRM's general style, but the cited remedy ( Statement by (username)Result concerning The Rambling Man
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Debresser
Blocked for 2 weeks for WP:1RR violation. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Debresser
This is a clear 24-hour 1RR violation. Debresser is well aware of the sanctions, as evidenced by his talk page, block log, and his many complaints here about other editors.
Discussion concerning DebresserStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DebresserIt seems to me that my 25 January 09:50 edit was my first revert. Why would this be a 1RR violation? The 24 January 17:56 edit was an original edit, in which I singled out specific sources as superfluous and irrelevant to the statement, after consensus had been reached to keep the statement itself. I also opened a talkpage section. My 25 January 09:50 edit was not a revert, whatever GoldenRing may say. I have noticed that GoldenRing is very biased regarding my edits, and will try to interpret anything in my disfavor, rightfully so or otherwise. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Base on the consensus here that the first edit was a revert, I would self-revert now, just that the article is protected... In general, I am not happy that the first thing people here think about is blocking. You could start with explaining a person's mistake. The approach here is bad faith, and that is not what Wikipedia says the approach should be. Debresser (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by ShrikeThe first diff is not a revert but an edit.When those sources were added in the first place?--Shrike (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by KingsindianWould have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. It's easy to break 1RR by mistake. Btw, it's irrelevant if the first edit is a revert or not. When an edit is reverted, the person shouldn't restore the edit again within 24 hours. This is a violation both of the "old amended 1RR" rule and "new amended 1RR rule". [Incidentally, how many people even know about the "new rule"? I don't really mind, since the new rule is silly, but somebody is bound to break the new rule (without breaking the old rule) sooner or later.] To repeat, it would have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by IcewhizThe content being removed was definite citation overkill (5 refs) in the LEDE to support a single word ("controlled"), which Debresser reduced to 2 citations without modifying any text.Icewhiz (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by usernameResult concerning Debresser
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction being appealed
- diff - Debresser (talk · contribs) blocked 2 week as a result of a consensus of administrators at the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard.
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by Debresser
Two reasons: 1. I would have reverted myself if not that the page was protected. 2. It would be more logical to simply topic ban me for two weeks, then I could continue editing in other areas.
Note: Reason copied from the user's talk page and the remainder filled in by GoldenRing (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
AE sanctions can be appealed at AE, or AN or ARCA. Of course, appeals are rarely granted, but still, there's nothing wrong with the request itself. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Coffee
I no longer care what happens... but the result is inevitable anyways. I'm done arguing with people who want to stress me out on purpose. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser
- I have had a long history of severe problems with Debresser, (he thinks my edits 'inferior' to his) but, on a point of order, I think he didn't, Coffee, deliberately try to disrupt 'AE' where this notice has been posted on his behalf. As comments on his request on his talk page show, he didn't know where to post it, -AN was one option- and in fairness, this should be cleared up.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose an AE topic ban as was suggested below. Appealing something immediately after a decision being reached is entirely proper (and, in fact, is more appropriate than waiting a long time to do it). Realistically, Debrasser should've requested an appeal at AN, or just submitted it directly to the Committee via e-mail. The timing of this appeal is entirely non-disruptive, and in my view, cannot be disruptive. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 15:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- A two-week topic ban seems more appropriate than a two-week block given the discretionary sanctions are topic related. Agree with Sandstein that ban is more appropriate. --DHeyward (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Debresser
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I agree that the intervening protection preventing a self-revert is a complicating factor here - but I see no indication from before this sanction was placed that the user would have self-reverted if they could have. Their response when it was suggested was "I'll think about that". Otherwise, the block was within admin discretion and supported by multiple admins. Decline. GoldenRing (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Since you opined in the first, not sure if you should in the appeal. Opinions vary on that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It has been established, I think, that admins commenting in AE threads do so in an administrative capacity and therefore remain uninvolved in appeals. It's up to the user if they want to appeal here, where they are likely to meet the same admins again, or at WP:AN. But the sanctioning admin is normally treated as involved solely for the purpose of the appeal. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Coffee and Dennis Brown: Sandstein's comment here summs up my understanding of it; the relevant committee procedure (which has already been quoted repeatedly, I know) is "Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal," which I read to mean that administrators are considered involved in appeals of sanctions which they have placed themselves. GoldenRing (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein: So what you're essentially saying here is that it's best to never be the actioning administrator? Because it seems a hell of a lot like my administrative opinion loses value by simply taking care of what needs to be done. This is ridiculous. I will never close an AE thread again, you can guarantee that. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- You extrapolate too much out of what I said. I only said that if an admin participated in an AE, they shouldn't participate in the appeal of that exact same AE case. It doesn't make them involved in any other way, just in that single report. That wouldn't stop them from sanctioning on a different issue, nor invoke WP:involved at all. Allowing an appeal to be considered by completely different admin is just good judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Regardless of however you paint this ridiculous picture, my position stands. You all can enjoy handling closing these from now on, and I'll sit back and keep my ability to use my administrative voice using the experience I have to actually have an impact here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- You extrapolate too much out of what I said. I only said that if an admin participated in an AE, they shouldn't participate in the appeal of that exact same AE case. It doesn't make them involved in any other way, just in that single report. That wouldn't stop them from sanctioning on a different issue, nor invoke WP:involved at all. Allowing an appeal to be considered by completely different admin is just good judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein: So what you're essentially saying here is that it's best to never be the actioning administrator? Because it seems a hell of a lot like my administrative opinion loses value by simply taking care of what needs to be done. This is ridiculous. I will never close an AE thread again, you can guarantee that. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Coffee and Dennis Brown: Sandstein's comment here summs up my understanding of it; the relevant committee procedure (which has already been quoted repeatedly, I know) is "Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal," which I read to mean that administrators are considered involved in appeals of sanctions which they have placed themselves. GoldenRing (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It has been established, I think, that admins commenting in AE threads do so in an administrative capacity and therefore remain uninvolved in appeals. It's up to the user if they want to appeal here, where they are likely to meet the same admins again, or at WP:AN. But the sanctioning admin is normally treated as involved solely for the purpose of the appeal. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Since you opined in the first, not sure if you should in the appeal. Opinions vary on that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Decline appeal with one note - What I have to look at is not what I would do, but what is normal, necessary and reasonable. Considering your history, two weeks block is within admin discretion. There isn't any question that broke 1RR, although the fact that it was full protected directly after DOES complicate it a bit, as you had no opportunity to revert. That doesn't mean you would have. Had you gone to the talk page or to the protecting admin and requested a revert, then that argument would carry more weight. I looked at Favonian's page and the article talk page, but didn't see it. The problem is that on technical grounds, I don't see a fault here. The sanction might be on the strong side (your last block was 3 days) but not so far outside the norm that it is outside of admin discretion. Of course, if Coffee wants to modify the sanction to a topic ban for a month +/-, I would be supportive of that as well, as that would be more in line with what I might have recommended, but I can't see any justification to compel him to, nor any reason to overturn his decision, as at least two admin thought a 2 week block was due. As far as his comments go, I don't see that relevant or prejudicial considering it was an obvious case of breaching 1RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Decline or convert to longer topic ban Since Coffee only instituted what multiple admins had said, I see 2 weeks block within discretion as well. I also note that while protection made self-reverting impossible, there is no indication that Debresser actually wanted to self-revert, per Dennis et. al. However, since we cannot rule out that he would have done so, I'd be open to offer Debresser an alternative to declining the appeal, i.e. converting said block to a topic ban for a month as Dennis suggests. Regards SoWhy 16:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agreed with the ban and I would accordingly decline this appeal, which provides no new arguments and does not address the conduct for which the ban was imposed. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- "TheTimesAreAChanging placed on indefinite probation in the topic area for refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits."
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [44]
Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging
I made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively. I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Floquenbeam, I am 99% certain that DS were not in effect at the time of my edit, and I looked carefully. Once the talk page has been tagged, I believe that the warning remains visible on earlier revisions of the talk page, but that does not mean that the warning was actually there the whole time. That's why I included Coffee's confirmation that "the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," as well as the relevant log, which states:
"List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations placed under indefinite 1RR/consensus/civility required restriction."
TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([45], [46]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [47] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Coffee
Trying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
TheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it.
In my opinion, the sanction should be increased to a topic ban for blatantly abusing process by Wikilawyering and wasting editors time.- MrX 🖋 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Yes, I did overlook that the edit notice was placed after the fact. That does make the situation a bit more ambiguous. However, TheTimesAreAChanging reverted without consulting the talk page which does not bode well in his favor.- MrX 🖋 21:03, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- TTAAC wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction; he was sanctioned for "repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area." It is well within an admin's authority to place such a sanction on an editor, so the appeal is completely without merit.- MrX 🖋 21:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO
Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [48] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns. Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN and his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to lift it, a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's hard to see any problem with probation. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [49]
@MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [50] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.
@TheTimesAreAChanging:I strongly suggest you strike or remove this bit. Not only is it not helpful, it's a personal attack not backed up by evidence. And no, I'm not suggesting you find evidence as that would only exacerbate other issues. Please, just strike or remove this bit (I'll remove this comment as well, if you do). Even if Coffee is the things you allege, that doesn't prove your sanction was unjust; that still needs to be judged on its own merits. For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. I'd have supported it if I'd been involved at talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: I found the following at WP:SANCTIONS:
- Probation (supervised editing)
- The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.
- I read it to mean that uninvolved admins are free to "stalk" the sanctioned editors edits to that page and issue additional sanctions without further justification (possibly beyond a diff to the edit in question, and a short explanation of what's wrong with it). I agree that it seems to be the most lenient form of sanction, as a gung-ho admin could do the same thing without violating policy to any editor, in theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well.
With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. The only pertinent facts are: (1) Despite TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated claim, the remedies and DS were in effect at the time of their revert, and (2) the circumstances do not approach a consensus for the edit, by any interpretation I've ever seen in my ~18 months of heavy involvement at Donald Trump. It doesn't speak well for TTAAC that they even mention a "thank" as having an iota of relevance here; the remedies quite clearly state "must obtain consensus on the talk page". There is nothing particularly complicated about these restrictions, even for someone as limited as me. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus.
I'm not suggesting that the appeal should be overturned because I think the edit was fine, I'm simply telling TTAAC that I would have defended his edit, even though I took issue with a part of his appeal statement. TTAAC and I are usually at opposite ends of similar discussions, and as such, it's worth pointing out those occasions on which we are in agreement. The idea here is to foster collaboration, not to undermine it, after all. Olive branches and the occasional compliment help with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- @SPECIFICO: I haven't said anything about the timing of the restrictions. My comment about his edit was not meant to convey anything more than the knowledge that -had I been aware of the discussion of that edit- I'd have supported including it. See my response to Mandruss, above for more on that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam:, it's my understanding that standard DS does not include "1RR/Consensus required" language. That is a page level restriction that is made on a case by case basis. There is no DS violation until page level restrictions are placed and logged. Coffee creates special templates for each page, I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[51]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Editing restrictions have to be logged, but any admin can sanction any editor editing in the American politics subject area, provided that they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. See WP:AC/DS. You seem not to grasp that. - MrX 🖋 21:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- TTAAC has not stated that they checked the log, couldn't find the log entry, and therefore ignored the template. We can safely assume that is not what happened. Thus your argument has no bearing on the issue of TTAAC's actions, and I repeat the word wikilawyering. It's the old story ending with "...and besides, I don't have a dog." ―Mandruss ☎ 22:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[51]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- He wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction. He was sanctioned for or his repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area. Admins are given discretion for imposing such sanctions, so this appeal lacks merit. If this were a new editor who had just wandered into a Trump article, I would recommend giving a pass for not seeing the talk page notice. That is not the case here.- MrX 🖋 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Given that this is not a violation of the page restriction, but a general editor restriction, I am concerned that Coffee viewed TTAC's talk page comments as a probation violation and "blockable" with no diffs and nothing I see as obvious. I am very concerned that this condition will be abused. Everyone seemed to believe this was a page level violation being enforced but now it's not so there is definitely a clarity and communication issue. --DHeyward (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: This is TTAC's only edit to their talk page[52] in 10 days. Blockable probation violation? --DHeyward (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@TheTimesAreAChanging: I'm astounded that you are still claiming that there was no notice in place. I have already linked to it, I know you saw the link, and you are beginning to bend my AGF. Here it is again: [53] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Mandruss:That's the talk page notice, the actual editnotice is here: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations. It appears when you try to edit the page. But I agree that the argument that TTAAC was unaware of that condition is untenable. He scrolled past notification every time he edited the talk page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@TheTimesAreAChanging: and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content.
The template says: "any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". NOT "any edits that have been challenged (via talk page discussion)". Your edit became a challenged edit immediately upon the first revert of it. It seems to me the problem is your unwillingness to read and understand clearly stated restrictions. Editors who are not willing to do that shouldn't be editing articles under the restrictions. One mistake can be forgiven if you're new to the restrictions (are you?), but, after all this discussion you still haven't read, understood, and resolved to observe the restrictions, let alone withdrawn this appeal of a very lenient slap-on-wrist sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Can I draw the admin's attention to the personal attack against Coffee that makes up the latter part of the origina filing? I quoted it at the very top of this section. I've asked TTAAC to strike or remove it, but gotten no response. Would one of you (@Floquenbeam and Primefac:) please at least make the same request for striking it, or redact it yourself? It's really unnecessary, it's inflammatory, and it's petty. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- What is "indefinite probation"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Answering my own question, it looks like the DS was already in place on the article, based on the talk page notice, but Coffee just recently added the edit notice after TTAAC's edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Based on Primfac's comment, I have a 3rd question: is there any reason not to block for that edit instead? That's clearly within the topic area, and the idea that it was exempt because it was a BLP issue is not reasonable. I'm still curious about the firstStriking based on Primefac's strike... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)twoquestions, though, even if they might be moot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @TheTimesAreAChanging: Looks like they were added on the 22nd: [54]. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward: see diff immediately above in my reply to TTAAC. Article sanctions were apparently in place, just no edit notice. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Now I remember why I only edit WP:AE once every 3 months. The arcane rules make my head hurt. As I now understand it, the recent arbcom decision (see WP:ACN) says that page restrictions can't be enforced if there's no editnotice. However, Coffee has just pointed out above that it was a sanction under the general sanctions for this topic, for repeated addition of reverted info in this topic area. Not an article-level sanction. So the question for reviewing admins is: Is this editor probation an acceptable use of admin discretion based on the general American Politics sanctions. Everything else about timing of editnotice is a sidetrack. To answer that question, I'd say that since there are really no consequences to the sanction beyond heightened scrutiny, which was happening anyway due to previous topic ban, that the sanction is reasonable. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
So... um... I find it hard to be sympathetic with the OP when they were topic-banned a fortnight ago from WP:ARBAPDS (which, for those living under a rock, is post-1932 politics), and (as I just found) had the appeal declined two days ago, so you shouldn't have been editing the page in the first place. I'm amazed you actually got away with that, so the fact that you're only on probation makes me think that Coffee was actually being lenient. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC)@MrX:, they already are ^ Primefac (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)- I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet:
Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).
so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited the sanction template, which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. Primefac (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- @DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet:
- I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
- Decline the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. GoldenRing (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)