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I don't think there is any denying that editors who are perceived to have a "pro-Palestine" or "anti-Israel" POV are, essentially, targeted in the ARBPIA area. If you ask me, edit summaries to the effect of "reverting POV pushing edit" or "reverting because of editors POV" are also personal comments—but this is usually not considered disruptive or actionable. However, in effect, it is extremely disruptive and it is damaging to NPOV. I don't think it is good to respond with personal comments, but I also understand the immense frustration that stems from the battleground mentality of editors in this area, and the seeming helplessness of admins to contain it. In the highlighted diffs, I see personal attacks that run both ways - I don't think an editor should file a complaint about personal attacks after calling someone a {{tq|"patronizing dick"}}, which was [[User:Debresser|Debresser]]s response to [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]]s comment that {{tq|"Opinions count for zilch in editing. We are obliged to use sources."}} (not a personal attack). After the {{tq|"patronizing dick"}} comment [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] replied {{tq|"This is kindergarten level advice"}}. — [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] has been cautioned in the past about escalating situations through the very bad behavior that he accuses others of—this seems to be yet another example of what is routine behavior on his part. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk]])</span></sup> 15:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
I don't think there is any denying that editors who are perceived to have a "pro-Palestine" or "anti-Israel" POV are, essentially, targeted in the ARBPIA area. If you ask me, edit summaries to the effect of "reverting POV pushing edit" or "reverting because of editors POV" are also personal comments—but this is usually not considered disruptive or actionable. However, in effect, it is extremely disruptive and it is damaging to NPOV. I don't think it is good to respond with personal comments, but I also understand the immense frustration that stems from the battleground mentality of editors in this area, and the seeming helplessness of admins to contain it. In the highlighted diffs, I see personal attacks that run both ways - I don't think an editor should file a complaint about personal attacks after calling someone a {{tq|"patronizing dick"}}, which was [[User:Debresser|Debresser]]s response to [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]]s comment that {{tq|"Opinions count for zilch in editing. We are obliged to use sources."}} (not a personal attack). After the {{tq|"patronizing dick"}} comment [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] replied {{tq|"This is kindergarten level advice"}}. — [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] has been cautioned in the past about escalating situations through the very bad behavior that he accuses others of—this seems to be yet another example of what is routine behavior on his part. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk]])</span></sup> 15:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Debresser}} It's only a problem when editors are prevented from legitimately adding sourced balancing content to articles because of other editors POV, and thus routinely an endemicly subjected to personal attacks and non-policy based arguments that amount to "So and so can't edit because their POV is different from mine" - that is not how NPOV in articles works. The article content in ARBPIA is inarguably biased, so when you say "Pro-Israel editors are targeted" it sounds like you are whining that some editors are trying to maintain NPOV standards in articles on a topic where you think you should be given special treatment because it's only POV-pushing when other people do it. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk]])</span></sup> 19:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
:{{re|Debresser}} It's only a problem when editors are prevented from legitimately adding sourced balancing content to articles because of other editors POV, and thus routinely an endemicly subjected to personal attacks and non-policy based arguments that amount to "So and so can't edit because their POV is different from mine" - that is not how NPOV in articles works. The article content in ARBPIA is inarguably biased, so when you say "Pro-Israel editors are targeted" it sounds like you are whining that some editors are trying to maintain NPOV standards in articles on a topic where you think you should be given special treatment because it's only POV-pushing when other people do it. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk]])</span></sup> 19:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy==== |
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Since Nishidani summoned me here by mentioning my name, I would like to make the following points: |
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#Calling someone a '''liar''' ("Look up the word 'prevarication'") or '''incapable of rational thought''' ("If you cannot think syllogistically, don't comment") are obvious personal attacks. Rather than saying they aren't, you guys should stick to the traditional "he might not have behaved perfectly but we can use our discretion to let him off the hook", for appearances' sake. |
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#Nishidani has been warned about the way he treats other editors multiple times. Most importantly note Xeno's comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment&oldid=440669803#Arbitrator_views_and_discussion here]. Some of us warned about his behavior when his original ARBPIA topic ban was removed. This was supposed to be the forum where that was dealt with. |
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#Nishidani regularly says he's quitting Wikipedia or putting himself under self-imposed topic bans. Those things never materialize. |
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[[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 22:32, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
Revision as of 22:32, 31 May 2017
Snooganssnoogans
Snooganssnoogans is banned from mass editing in the area of American Politics post-1932 for an indefinite period of time. This means adding (more or less) the same material to more than two articles. He is free to use the talk page of any article to request edits if he feels more articles should have the material. He may appeal at WP:AE after one year and every six months after that if the first appeal is unsuccessful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Snooganssnoogans
BLUF: Snooganssnoogans edits almost exclusively to add negative material to Conservative articles or to attack conservative viewpoints in political topics. In March 2017, Snooganssnoogans began by editing votes on issues the he finds "interesting" to articles of politicians. He seems to be trying to shame them for their votes ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]). This led to the first discussion. Then, Snooganssnoogans started adding material en masse to the leads of articles regarding political positions that they personally find unsavory to articles of Republican politicans ([16][17][18][19][20][21]). This led to the first ANI case where Snooganssnoogans was warned about WP:UNDUE and how it affects WP:NPOV in articles. Particularly, that WP:LEAD prohibits adding undue material in the lead. In May 2017, Snooganssnoogans again made a mass addition of material to 34 Republican articles (Curbelo -> Trott) in 29 minutes which means he spent 51 seconds on each edit. The second sentence of the material included mention that it "allows insurers to charge the elderly up to five times as much as the young". This material is unsourced at best, WP:SNYTH or WP:OR at worst. It's also WP:UNDUE in a BLP and belongs in the article about the bill, instead ([22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]). Later in May, he again added WP:UNDUE material to BLPs which were describes by User:Drmies as WP:SYNTH. ([61][62][63][64]). This led to the discussion on Drmies talk page. Also in May, added additional WP:UNDUE material to tie politicans to Trump. These four edits were made in 6 minutes with different sources which appears to support the perception that Snooganssnoogans searched for sources that supported what they wanted to say. This is generally called cherry picking. ([65][66][67][68][69][70]) Finally, I reviewed Snooganssnoogans's last 400 edits. Of those 400, 65 out of 67 BLPs edited were politicians. 60 out of those 65 were conservatives. And each edit to a conservative article was to add negative information to the article (a cursory look by anyone is welcome). Additionally, Snooganssnoogans seems particularly interested in politicians that are from states that are advantageous to win in a Presidential election. He particularly favors New York, California, and Florida.
And then two days ago, he had an edit summary removed for making a BLP violation in an edit summary [71]. Despite this, very very recently, he has tried to make a couple edits that have the appearance of neutrality. I believe these are deceptive because the issue was heading to WP:AE soon([72][73]). Often when these issues are brought up, Snooganssnoogans quickly reverts but the behavior only stops long enough for folks to stop watching (as demonstrated above). The real issue here isn't WP:V or WP:RS. Snooganssnoogans's edits are often well cited. The problem is that this editor is singularly interested in adding negative information to conservative BLPs and conservative articles. Often ignoring WP:UNDUE in the process which results in a slanted article. But their efforts to singularly trash Conservative articles also results in a slanted topic area as well - for which we don't have a policy about but perhaps should.
Discussion concerning SnooganssnoogansStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SnooganssnoogansThe claim that I edit almost exclusively on Conservative articles or political topics is false. I edit extensively on pages on history and social science. In the last month, I've for instance added at least 30 studies to articles. I do edit a lot on the pages of political figures but not exclusively. TParis's description of the March 2017 discussion is inaccurate. I did not add content to "shame" Republican politicians or issues that I considered "unsavoury". I added political positions that were easy to find to those articles, and thus could be sourced and added. So usually the positions on issues such as abortion, healthcare, same-sex marriage, and then on issues that had extensive and recent RS coverage. What I did wrong in that ANI discussion is that I added political positions to ledes, which is something I apologized for and self-reverted upon hearing complaints. I explain my erroneous reasoning here in the paragraph that starts with “I understand the concern and will comply“[74]). So, I apologized for adding political positions to ledes and haven’t added any such content to the ledes of any congressperson since. As for my additions of AHCA content to congresspeople's articles: I added congresspeople’s votes on the May 2017 version of the American Health Care Act, as I believed there was encyclopaedic value in adding those votes to Wikipedia (the extent of RS coverage for each individual congressperson on this issue substantiates that it was notable). Instead of just saying, “congressperson voted for the May 2017 version of AHCA”, I wrote “congressperson voted for the May 2017 version of AHCA. That version of the American Health Care Act would allow insurers to charge people significantly more if they have pre-existing conditions, and allows insurers to charge the elderly up to five times as much as the young.” The first part of that sentence was in the NYT source (so both sourced and notable), but the second part was not. As I explained in a discussion on the American Politics board, I mixed up the NYT source and the Wikipedia article for AHCA in adding the second part of the sentence. I apologized for the error and offered to self-revert. I also explained to the American Politics board that these were intended to be initial edits and that other edits sourced to in-depth pieces (from both local and national news sources) on each congressperson’s vote would be added. As for the claim that it’s undue to outline the contents of legislation, I disagree. If RS cover the contents of legislation in the context of a congressperson’s vote, it is consistent with Wiki policy to add it. It is in fact common practice. It would make no sense to, for instance, say “In September 2006, Clinton voted for the Secure Fence Act”, because it’s unclear what that entails. That’s why her positions article says “In September 2006, Clinton voted for the Secure Fence Act, authorizing the construction of 700 miles (1,100 km) of fencing along the United States–Mexico border.”[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Hillary_Clinton#Border_barrier] Unless the intent is to obfuscate, you’re supposed to explain what the legislation is and what sets it apart provided that it can be RSed. If other editors come to a consensus that legislation shouldn't be elaborated on, I will of course abide by that. TParis notes that Drmies considered some of my edits SYNTH: After discussing with Drmies and hearing his/her concerns, I decided to self-revert one sentence related to the firing of James Comey (note though that the claim of Synth was never correct, but other concerns were valid). While RS do find it relevant to mention that Comey was fired by Trump while the FBI were conducting a probe into Russia ties, I heeded the concerns and removed it from the pages. The claim that I'm cherrypicking is also false. The politicians who explicitly supported the Comey firing were listed by New York Times and Propublica, and received coverage and attention for it. Most of my edits on congresspeople are on high-profile pages that have gotten a lot of coverage by reliable sources in the Trump era. All the congresspeople that I've edited have been frequently covered by national news organizations (e.g. will they / won’t they support healthcare reform, the Comey firing), which is very uncommon. The reason why I’ve edited the pages of those congresspeople from NY, Cali and Florida is because of the extensive coverage by reliable sources and the national news attention that those congresspeople get. TParis claims that I edit those pages because they are the three of the largest states and carry the most votes in presidential elections, but I'm unclear what the logic behind that would be. Note also that I’ve edited the few high-profile Democratic politicians’ pages in the Trump era: Rob Quist and Jon Ossoff. My edits to Quist and Ossoff’s pages are the exact same edits that I’ve made to GOP congresspeople’s. I created the “political positions” sub-sections in those articles, see this[75] and this[76]. These pages are indistinguishable from the political positions sub-sections in GOP congresspeople’s pages with one exception: there is less RS coverage of Quist and Ossoff because they haven’t served in Congress and are only very recent candidates. It’s therefore harder to find their positions on many issues. So, just to re-cap, TParis is complaining that I’m adding political positions to the articles of GOP congresspeople in an attempt to negatively portray GOP congresspeople in particular. Yet, I’ve done the exact same thing to Democratic politicians. The truth however is that I’m of course neither trying to portray Democrats negatively nor Republicans. According to TParis[77], a typical example of me trying to portray a Republican candidate (Karen Handel) negatively is this edit[78] wherein I add her self-description, a description by Politico of her philosophy and positions on the minimum wage and the gender pay gap (I’ve added more positions to her article in other edits). Three weeks earlier, I added this[79] to the page of Handel’s opponent, Jon Ossoff: a description by the New York Times of his philosophy and positions on various issues (many of the same positions as on Handel’s page). These two edits are indistinguishable, yet by merely presenting info on the GOP candidate, TParis is convinced that I’m intentionally portraying her negatively. I presented the same info on the Democratic candidate (the candidate of course holds different positions on those issues), am I trying to negatively portray him too? One of the complaints that TParis brings up is that I BLP violation in an edit summary: Yes, I apologized for that. I didn’t realize that you couldn’t say mean things (I called someone a wackjob - this individual had wrongly been added to a section containing the views of scholars) about a public figure in an edit summary. TParis claims that my edits that have the appearance of neutrality are disingenuous and that I'm playing some long con. This is completely false. I’ve always attempted to keep Wikipedia articles neutral and I do add negative things to articles that leftwingers are inclined to like, as well as positive things to articles that conservatives are inclined to like. One of my recent edits was making sure that Louise Mensch’s Wikipedia page (a person that some conspiracy-minded Democrats like) notes that she promotes conspiracy theories and makes unsubstantiated claims. I added that a few days ago for the simple reason that I stumbled upon an RS making the case. According to TParis, it’s because I knew that he was going to come after me again and that this is my way of conspiring to produce evidence of my neutral posture. I’ve also edited Michael Chossudovsky’s page (a person that some conspiracy-minded Democrats like) and have butted heads with people over there for noting that his leftwing conspiracy website should be described as such. I started doing that in March 2017 I regularly revert vandalism and unproductive edits to GOP figures’ pages, many of which seek to attack them. Just some examples: [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91], [92], [93], [94], [95], [96], [97]. I also add studies to articles that end up defending conservative viewpoints and arguments. In the article on 'Immigration and Crime', I for instance added a study (sometime in 2016) showing that immigration from terror-prone states increase the risk of terrorism in the host country[98]. In the article on "Voter ID Laws in the United States", I added research and significant amounts of text which noted that there is no clear-cut evidence that voter ID laws reduce overall turnout or minority turnout (which is a huge Democratic talking point). As an example of my neutrality and interest in improving the Wikipedia project, I added a recently published study which added support for the Democratic talking point[99] but when other research was published which rebutted the study, I added that too[100]. In fact, I devoted more text to the critique than the original findings. Earlier today, I fought to include language that did not cast aspersions on Fox News’ motivations in re-igniting the Seth rich conspiracy[101]. These are just some examples of my desire to keep things neutral and due. I always try to abide by the instructions provided by senior editors when there’s broad agreement, and always heed well-reasoned concerns (such as in the various self-reverts I’ve done) when there are mixed views and no consensus. When I have erred, I usually ask for clarifications so that the errors are not repeated. I add notable and relevant info to both conservative and liberal articles. This info is almost always well-sourced as was noted and in my view due, though the occasional inadvertent error may occur. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesI am looking at the last page about conservative politician edited by Snooganssnoogans. He makes this edit. Here is corresponding section of the page. This is all well sourced. OK. Is it a negative information about a living person? From a "liberal" standpoint, that might be seen as something negative, but in reality it is not. This is simply a sourced opinion of a politician delivered to a reader. That politician is probably proud of her opinion and wants it be delivered to public. Is it undue? Hardly. The subject/opinion is certainly important, more important than her opinion about grey wolves in the previous phrase. This edit by Snooganssnoogans has been already reverted by another user [120]. Did Snooganssnoogans participate in discussion? Yes, they did, and their arguments are convincing [121]. I do not see any problems with behavior by Snooganssnoogans in this example. My very best wishes (talk) 05:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC) 2nd example: [122] - the edit was made to include last phrase into the paragraph. Yes, that makes it judgemental, however this particular connection was made in a large number of sources. This is not WP:SYN. Nevertheless, this should not be included in this page and was correctly removed by another contributor later. Overall, this looks to me as a typical work in this subject area when Snooganssnoogans did contribute something reasonable to the page [123], however not everything was accepted by others.
Statement by NeutralityThis filing lacks merit, because no arbitration remedy has been violated. Frankly, this filing smells of an effort to gain an advantage in content disputes by barring a productive editor from a topic area. Note:
In sum, this filing is the continuation of a content dispute by other means (as the face of the complaint shows), and should be closed with no action against Snoogans. Neutralitytalk 06:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer MarekI think it's pretty clear that if we take any one edit by itself there's nothing wrong here. It's sourced, it's encyclopedic, yada yada yada. What people are disagreeing over and where some people are trying to see wrong doing is in this: "do politicians' stances on various issues, and how they voted on them, belong in the lede"? And this is a judgement call regarding CONTENT. Some think this is undue. Others think it belongs in the lede. There's no policy or guideline one way or another. There's nothing in discretionary sanctions language which prohibits this. Even if one disagrees with these edits (myself I think that "it depends" on the politician and particular issue) it's impossible to argue that anything has been violated here. If some "incorrect editing" took place here it's the fault of policy or its absence, not any particular editor. Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC) Dennis Brown, you're making the implicit assumption that adding the text that says "Person X supports Y" is adding "negative text". This is peculiar. If politician X supports bans on abortion, then from their point of view, adding "Person X supports bans on abortion" would be "positive text". You're working on the basis of a whole bunch of strange implicit assumptions there in your statement.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:41, 20 May 2017 (UTC) And frankly, WP:DUE is always gonna be an editorial judgement call and as long as stuff is reliably sourced, it's not edit-warred into an article and no other policies are broken, you can't sanction fro someone for exercising their judgement just because you disagree with it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:42, 20 May 2017 (UTC) @User:TParis - please quit it with the WP:BATTLEGROUND comments and unbacked WP:ASPERSIONS. That's really some "conduct unbecoming" there. Of course NPOV is mandatory - nobody here is disputing that (WP:LEAD actually isn't but nm). The problem is you have failed to show (here or at Drmies page, or at ANI or wherever else you've block shopped this proposal) that it has been violated. All you've shown is that a user has made some edits you don't agree with. Yeah, so what? That's a CONTENT dispute. Furthermore you are grossly misrepresenting my statement with the whole "VM wholeheartedly supports it". Where the hell did you get "wholeheartedly"? Where the hell did you get "supports it"? I explicitly said above that my opinion is "it depends" which is a far cry from "wholeheartedly supports". So please stop making stuff up. Your comment just provides more evidence that this is some irrational grudge against Snoogans (and those who dare to speak in their favor) rather than any policy based concern. Seriously, coming from an admin, this kind of behavior is deeply disturbing. I'd appreciate it if you'd strike your attacks on me.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:53, 20 May 2017 (UTC) TParis, yeah I can address those accusations. Can you strike your unfounded attacks on me? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC) Actually, looking at the diffs provided by TParis in more detail, it looks like most of these aren't even in the LEDE, so now I really have no idea how they're supposed to be objectionable. So a politician supported Trump on something. There's lots of sources on that. This is added to the politician's article (not LEDE). Annnnndddddd? I mean, yeah, if it was added to the LEDE I can see how someone could argue WP:UNDUE and WP:LEDE. But it's not even that! Mountains meet molehills.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:22, 20 May 2017 (UTC) @User:GoldenRing - you yourself admit that Snoogan's edits are verifiable and based on reliable sources. Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? There's no policy being violated here except a vague assertions about WP:UNDUE, which are always a judgement call and subject to editor's discretion. Now, if there was a consensus not to include some ifo on some article per WP:UNDUE and Snoogan tried to get his way anyway, then you'd have a case. But that's not what happened. All these diffs are "diffs I (meaning TParis) happen to disagree with". As others have pointed out at the end of the day this is just a content dispute because no policy has actually been broken. You think the edits are wrong for some other reason? Fine. Rewrite the policy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:37, 23 May 2017 (UTC) To elaborate on my point above and one on my talk page - yes, GoldenRing, verifiability is a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion. But then you flip it and proclaim the fact that someone followed verifiability as a... reason to sanction somebody? How does that work? You can say "WP:UNDUE" all you want, but others can just as easily say "No, it's DUE!". How does the matter get settled? ON THE TALK PAGE, NOT at WP:AE, which is not for content disputes. If you, or TParis can show that Snoogans ignored talk page consensus somewhere and did so consistently, then you might have a justification for some kind of sanctions. Otherwise you're really just running around yelling WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT (50 points - how do we tell IJDL from UNDUE?). Also, I find it a bit disingenuous of you to claim, quote, "There seems to be fairly general agreement that the editing pattern is problematic " where there's obviously NO SUCH AGREEMENT, neither between admins here or users commenting on it. Three of the admins (Sandstein and Masem, with Lord Roem indicating that they agree with Sandstein) are taking the view that this is not sanctionable (or not suitable for AE) and is essentially a content dispute, and only you and Dennis arguing otherwise. I'm sorry, that's suppose to be "fairly general agreement"? I don't think so.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:47, 23 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by MrXSnooganssnoogans and I have edited more than 30 of the same articles, and my general impression is that he is a constructive editor. I did notice some minor concerns in August of last year, so I gave hime and alert and some advice then. I was surprised to see that Snooganssnoogans had been brought before arbitration enforcement, until I saw who who brought them here. More on that later. [Note: I am reviewing every diff in evidence and will comment in subsequent posts.]
Wikipedia editors are not required to be generalists. Some editors focus on a narrow scope of subjects. Wikipedia does not have an SPA policy. The cited 2011 Arbcom case does not have an SPA remedy. It states a general principle about SPAs, the key takeaway of which is "users should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral". In this case, the evidence that Snooganssnoogans has edited from a non-neutral point of view is subjective. To paraphrase what Volunteer Marek pointed out in his response to Dennis Brown, what is construed by some as negative may be construed by others as positive. For example, if I say I want to ban Muslims from entering the US, about a third of the U.S. population would view that as positive, while others will view it as neutral or negative. The OP's motivation for bringing this to AE are suspect. He has soapboxed before about enwiki's "left leaning bias" [124] and he's keeping a list [125]. Some of his comments [126][127][128][129], including accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence on this very page, and here[130][131], suggest a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset that leads me to believe that this is an attempt to RIGHTGREATLEFTS.- MrX 03:45, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000I’ve had little interaction, if any, with Snooganssnoogans. I didn’t agree with a recent revert that they made; another editor quickly said it was against consensus, and they said oops, and that they would look at it. This will happen when you make so many edits. Looking through their edits, they appear far more researched than most of what we see day-to-day. OTOH, I’ve seen multiple edits from the filer of this request claiming there exists a systemic bias in Wikipedia. I will not supply diffs as my intention is not to seek a boom. The enormous detail that the filer has provided, I think to be bothersome. I may be wrong, but in my mind, an AE sanction should be based on obvious infraction(s); not a “pattern” that requires so many words to describe. We all have our opinions. If we follow the guidelines, such opinions are not a problem. And yeah, we are likely to spend more time on articles of interest. I’m disturbed by a complaint against an editor that makes large contributions who may be sanctioned for a pattern that requires so many words to “prove”. I suggest that the filer retract the complaint. If those that have spent more time looking at the rather large body of contributions find a problem; then warn the object of the complaint. From what I’ve seen, a minnow at most. Objective3000 (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
I analyze several of the claims by TParis, and give my opinion. Snoogans often adds content of the form "Congressman did A. Here's an explanation of A". Snoogans states that they did the same for Hillary Clinton. Let's look at the diffs now. To avoid any confusion over diff numbers, I am using the numbers in this revision. Diffs 48 to 81 are, in my opinion, wrong. Here is why. The diffs first say: that Congressman X voted for AHCA. Then it says Snoogans states that part of the description was in the NYT source, so it's notable. But that's not the correct way to go. On this topic, so much is written, that you can find a source to say practically anything you like. If you wish to summarize the AHCA, you look at a broad variety of sources, or a source which summarizes a large variety of sources, and write a summary. I don't think diffs 87 to 90 are SYNTH, but they come quite close. Still, assuming WP:AGF, we can say that the most notable aspect of firing of Comey is the Russia connection, the edit is defensible, though not ideal. Diffs 91 to 96 add the position of various politicians on the firing of Comey. Whether or not it should be included is an editorial decision. One can make a case either way. Overall, I think TParis' contention that Snoogans is editing to add negative information to conservative politician's BLP is correct. Do these changes overwhelm articles and result in COATRACKs? I don't think that's true. TParis' contention that Snoogans is an SPA is plainly not correct, because they edit plenty of other pages. What should be done about it? I am not sure. The behaviour isn't egregious, and one can find biases in the editing of all editors; and I'm sure I know plenty of people worse than Snoogans in these topic areas. Wikipedia isn't compulsory, and people edit what they like. Editors are allowed to be biased, but are expected to edit neutrally. Perhaps a warning to Snoogans is enough. Perhaps a sanction is justified. I leave it to the judgement of admins. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 10:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Politrukki
I don't think it should matter whether Snooganssnoogans edits conservative or progressive topics. I reviewed only a tiny portion of diffs – and I'm afraid I can't review all of them. It is clear that some are unwise (for example edits adding SYNTH), but I'd say most are innocuous. For example I agree with what they say about Louise Mensch, and their edits to that topic are good (TParis didn't actually say there were problems in that area). Snooganssnoogans can be co-operative if they want to. Review of Snooganssnoogans edits should be focused on what they have did after the ANI thread. Politrukki (talk) 08:46, 21 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by TimothyjosephwoodThis is a bit of an interesting test for whether we should be applying policy in terms of intent or that of effect. I think if we had two users: one who made only SS's edits to BLPs, and another that made all other edits, we may find fairly good agreement that we had one POV pushing user and one fairly normal constructive, even commendable user. We don't however, and that seems to make the moral judgement much more difficult, although the effect for readers, and for the overall POV of the encyclopedia is the same. TimothyJosephWood 00:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by OIDStating a politician has taken/supported political stance 'X' (which is a matter of public record) would only be a negative issue if it was deliberately phrased in a negative way. For any political position supporters will always see it as a positive addition. 'Senator X supports repealing a woman's right to an abortion' is only a negative if you start from the base position women have a right to an abortion. A good portion of the US citizenry dont believe that. An addition like 'Politician X has supported bill Y which would result in millions of unborn children not being murdered' or 'Politician X has supported bill Y which would take away women's freedom' would be an edit that is not neutral. From taking a look at the edits above, most are written neutrally, but fall in the area where the liberal/left-leaning average wikipedian would consider them 'negative' information. A conservative right-of-center politician/voter would have a different opinion. You might as well argue that the editor has been biasing conservative politican articles in a positive way (for a conservative). Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:28, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by JFGI'm puzzled by OID's rationale. He says that stating a politician's support for a given position "would only be a negative issue if it was deliberately phrased in a negative way", then proceeds to argue that Snooganssnoogans' edits could be construed as positive if you're a supporter of said politicians. That seems a stretch, and regardless of the political leanings of readers, we can't deny that Snoogans' edits deliberately emphasized the potential negative consequences of AHCA. Adding this occasionally in a couple articles discussing healthcare would be just fine, but adding it deliberately to dozens of politicians' BLPs must be labeled WP:ADVOCACY. As Timothyjosephwood mentioned, if those tendentious edits were made by one editor and the benign edits by another one, the first one could be rightly topic-banned. However, Snoogans being an otherwise productive and amicable editor, we can't slap him too hard beyond warning him to not repeat such a pattern of edits in the future. Surely our wise admins will know where to draw the line. — JFG talk 11:51, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by BullRangiferI see a problematic approach to a slippery slope situation. The result could be the imposition of limitations on editors who are specialists in one topic or subject area or hold certain POV, without them having violated any policies. Keep in mind that part of WP:NPA is "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views." Bringing it to a noticeboard doesn't make it any more legitimate. Edits must be judged on a case by case basis, not by any type of pattern extending over multiple articles. If the edit is proper in the article, whatever else is happening is irrelevant. If an edit is improper in an article, then deal with it there. Every editor makes mistakes. Only if most of their edits are creating a real problem should there be any action beyond what happens at the relevant article. We just need to be very cautious here. There is no justification for any serious sanctions. Maybe a trout for some particularly poor edits, but no more. Otherwise the editor is being punished for their specialty or interest. No editor has an obligation to add content that covers all sides of an issue. We are many, and together we create the whole. The individual editor doesn't have to do that. They find some good sources and content on one aspect of a subject. Great. Let them add it without making them feel guilty. Other editors who hold opposing POV will come along and balance things out. We are happy to have anyone make any positive contributions. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:32, 23 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by AnythingyouwantI wouldn't mind these edits by Snooganssnoogans if they were all made subsequent to edits by a hypothetical editor Unsnooganssnoogans who had made similar edits except with an opposite POV (e.g. distancing the politicians from Trump). In that case, one could plausibly argue that Snooganssnoogans was merely restoring a semblance of NPOV by adding balancing material. That's not a good way to write an article, but it might excuse Snooganssnoogans (though it wouldn't excuse Unsnooganssnoogans). Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:15, 24 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by SagecandorThe user seems quite able to edit on pages of conservative politicians in a positive and constructive and helpful manner, including cleanup, reverting vandalism, and reverting violations of WP:No original research: [144], [145], [146], [147], [148], [149], [150], [151], [152], [153], [154], [155], [156], [157], [158], [159], [160], [161]. This shows the user is knowledgeable of site policy and edits in a helpful manner to improve biography pages of politicians on the site, including those of a conservative bent. In addition, the user seems most able and willing to engage in polite discussion on talk pages to help others come to friendly resolutions to issues. Sagecandor (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Snooganssnoogans
"Snooganssnoogans is banned from mass editing in the area of American Politics post-1932 for an indefinite period of time. This means adding (more or less) the same material to more than two articles. He is free to use the talk page of any article to request edits if he feels more articles should have the material. He may appeal at WP:AE after one year and every six months after that if the first appeal is unsuccessful." I think this is the least aggressive way to deal with the problem at hand, while not putting undue restriction on his editing and recognizing he has the ability to contribute in a positive way. I would prefer other admin input (below this is fine) before anyone enacts, although I do think this is the minimum we should do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:30, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
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Archwayh
Archwayh (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people for one month. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Archwayh
Archwayh reinstated edits that were challenged – violating the "consensus required" restriction – and copied basically the same content to the lead. The content is questionable at best and I assume that Archwayh did not read the cited source. The content includes fake quotes that don't appear in the source, Asked to self-revert [167]. They have not reacted in any way. On April 4, in another article under ARBAPDS, they used personal attack in an edit summary [168], and doubled down on it [169]. They've marked their edits as "minor" and mark nearly all of their edits as "minor", even after they've been told to stop it: User_talk:Archwayh#Minor edits, User_talk:Archwayh#May 2017 Politrukki (talk) 14:08, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning ArchwayhStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ArchwayhStatement by JFGLooks like a straightforward DS violation despite warnings. Whatever remedy ends up enacted, I would insist that this editor should stop marking their contributions as minor, because many people filter out minor edits in their watchlist or edit history. As noted by the OP, "minor edit" has a pretty restrictive meaning on Wikipedia. As soon as the meaning is changed, no matter how slightly, it's not minor. — JFG talk 16:33, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Archwayh
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Keith-264
Keith-264 is blocked 36-hours for their 1RR violation. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Keith-264
(The following edits may not be subject to DS but provide a bit of useful background. There is a much broader, persistent pattern of disruption but these are the most blatant standalone examples.)
(none)
Discussion concerning Keith-264Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Keith-264I supported an edit by someone after it was removed and later found that a posse of editors who try to dictate the content of the article had made disparaging remarks and threats against me. Anyone who reviews the edit history of the article and comments on the talk page will see that I'm more sinned against than sinning. I submit a comment by one editor [171] as evidence of bad faith and request that anyone judging this matter takes care not to be used to harass by proxy. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Keith-264
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JGabbard
JGabbard (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from all edits about, and all pages related to Seth Rich broadly construed for six months. --NeilN talk to me 18:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning JGabbard
@Dennis Brown:More evidence, more diffs, same exact behavior, same exact article, against same exact user, after expiry of prior topic ban at same exact page:
Sagecandor (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning JGabbardStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by JGabbardFollowing AE notification, I would have promptly self-reverted; however, that had already been done. Using Listverse as a reliable source was an error, and for that I apologize. My good faith intention was to augment (or replace) that reference with better sources (e.g., [180], [181], [182]), all highlighting basically the same thing, i.e., the overlooked gap between the shooting and Rich's death in the hospital some hours later. However, I did not have that opportunity. Although perhaps not widely reported, it is not a secret that first responders spoke with Mr. Rich, as well as police and also medical staff at the hospital. If D.C. police have freely acknowledged withholding such salient details (weapon,[183] victim's statements,[184] suspects, etc.) in the interest of the investigation, then it should not be improper to state the same in the article. The existence of unpublished facts which are known to authorities but not yet released, may be equally significant as that which is known, which is precious little. I do not see that as NON-information, but rather as intrinsically helpful information. I consider it unfair to classify a single restoration of such material to the text as disruptive editing, especially since I was not even its original poster. As to user SPECIFICO, I cast no aspersions in my cited statement of May 24, nor was that my intent at all; I merely provided a general and objective analysis of his editing history on the article to support my rationale why his opinion should be given less weight in a consensus discussion on the inclusion/deletion of the article's infobox. - JGabbard (talk) 23:38, 27 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOResponding to ping. I just saw JGabbard's edit summary about me at Murder of Seth Rich when I read his denial above. He is a longtime editor, he's been amply warned and sanctioned previously. His justification above is absurd on its face. JGabbard's comment in evidence contains no objective statements at all and not even diffs to support up his ad hominem. So here is an editor who is experienced, who (we may presume) knows not to make such complaints without diffs, not to do it on the article talk page, and who knows the reason any article is under DS is because Arbcom has determined that we need to be particularly careful about our conduct there. It's hard for me to believe Admins here would take JGabbard's defence seriously. Every time a POV or PA editor gets off with a warning here at AE, countless other editors reduce their participation on Wikipedia to avoid the unpleasant and unproductive editing environments at these difficult articles. These articles are already tough enough to edit and improve. Bad behavior and lax enforcement are very costly to the Project. We've seen many productive editors walk away or reduce their participation rather than continue to work in a hostile environment. SPECIFICO talk 17:04, 28 May 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning JGabbard
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Nishidani
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Nishidani
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:17, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, especially the Decorum and Editors reminded paragraphs:
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- "Remember my advice Debresser. Opinions count for zilch in editing"[185]
- "This is kindergarten level advice", "Do you understand this?"[186]
- "It is bad enough for Debresser to start reverting me when he had read neither the whole page nor knew of the relevant policy", "That is not how we do things here"[187]
- "Look up the word 'prevarication'"[188]
- "This is getting absurdly complicated, indeed stupid"[189]
- "You are not focusing on the specific problem raised in this section"[190]
- "You clearly are totally confused and are not examining with any attention the material provided for you by other editors", "virtually all serious sources", "the conflict you wish to erase or render all but invisible"[191]
- "Your arguments are meaningless because you do not bring sources and you do not reply to the specifics raised by myself"[192]
- "It's lazy to remove"[193]
- "You appear to know nothing of WP:NPOV"[194]
- "Don't be naïve", "You are wasting editorial time"[195]
- "You should drop your mission in your recent wiki life to provoke me and then make threats.
Piss off" (sic) [196] - "for fuck's sake"[197]
- "If you cannot think syllogistically, don't comment"[198]
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive200#Nishidani A report at this forum, filed by me, where Nishidani received a warning that "If I see those names again with fresh examples, then the banhammer comes down." and a closing statement that said "All parties are cautioned that further breaches in civility occurring after this date in the PIA topic area will be be met with swift action at a lower threshold than has traditionally been the case."
- I'd add that I was at the time, and still am, unpleasantly surprised by the mildness of that warning regarding Nishidani, and the way it mentioned me in one breath with him, although the civility issue is clearly a one-sided problem of Nishidani.
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive212#Nishidani Another report at this forum, filed by another editor, where the civility issue was also raised.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see above.
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see my recent warning on his talkpage.
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see above.
- The editor acknowledges participation in previous discussion on their talkpage, "a couple of dozens times, several cases this year alone",[199] a fact which speaks for itself.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This editor has a habit of putting down his fellow editors, making denigrating comments about them, doubting their logical faculties, general competence and knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, using strong language (to say the least). This has been pointed out to him many times, and objected to, including by this forum. Nishidani continues this behavior unchanged. It is time the community put a stop to this behavior. All the more so since it is a likely possibility that Nishidani uses this style, consciously or unconsciously, to stifle opposition against his POV.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[200] May it be noted that this editor has requested me to not comment on his talkpage.[201] At the same time, I have stated that I have no problem with him posting on my talkpage.[202]
Replies of Debresser to comments by other editors and admins
@Black Kite One does not come to WP:AE because one disagrees with an editor. As Kingsindian has said correctly, the discussion from which most of these comments were culled, was resolved with general consensus. That however is not in itself a reason to not report violations that were made during the course of that discussion. In any case, I hardly participated in the discussion, which was mostly between Icewhiz and Nishidani and Kingindian. Also please note that a significant part of the comments was not even directed at me but at Icewhiz. I take offense to the bad faith assumption behind the suggestion that I reported Nishidani because I disagree with him. I reported him because he has a very, very long history of offending his opponents. A fact which is confirmed by the previous WP:AE decision. Even Nishidani's friend Huldra says she finds his comments inappropriate, and Icewhiz also calls his comments "incivility thrown my way", even if he was not offended by them. In addition, on a more genral note, most problematic behavior will naturally arise in conflict situations, and restricting the path to WP:AE because of that fact alone does not make sense and sets a dangerous precedent, opening the way for uncontrolled violations. If you hold, contrary to common sense and the warning issued to Nishindani at this very forum, that it is acceptable or even reasonable to systematically put down people you disagree with with insults to their intelligence, knowledge, and overall competence, say so, but suggesting to punish me for reporting a clear violation of basic and common sense ArbCom restrictions reminds me of the absurdities depicted in Kafka's The Trial. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
@Nishidani You seem to think that attack is the best defense. However, you forgot to mention that WP:ARBPIA3 was significantly altered just 5 days before I reported you on WP:ANI and neither of us was aware of that. It really is large of you to claim that I am "Utterly confused about the AE/ARCA ruling" when in your very next post here you ask for editors to explain to you something as simple as the meaning of a revert, saying "I would like a simple explanation of whether the 2 edits I count as reverts are so or not. I don't understand the rule, never will"! I already explained to you that this edit of mine can by no means be counted as a revert. In any case, please do not try to avoid the real issue here, that you are not going to stop insulting your fellow editors when they disagree with you, and that you don't care about warnings you receive, including given here at WP:AE regarding WP:ARBPIA. And since you are already trying to find violations, please look at this revert of yours, which at the time you made it was still a violation of the unaltered WP:ARBPIA3 per the "do not restore an undone edit without gaining prior consensus" rule. Debresser (talk) 15:36, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
@El_C @Neutrality One can hardly compare my single uncivil edit, which was a direct reply to his incivility (as I said specifically), to Nishidani's systematic pattern of psychological warfare aimed to dissuade editors from disagreeing with him. Especially since he was told here on a previous occasion to stop that behavior, and he simply couldn't care less. Debresser (talk) 15:39, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
@Seraphim System It is good to see that all my friends have assembled here. :) I just wanted to react to something very interesting you mention, namely that pro-Palestine editors are targeted here. Please be aware that pro-Israel editors are targeted here even more often, as recent archives can show you. In general, the "we are the victims here" attitude is typical of both parties in any prolonged conflict, read Albert Ellis. Debresser (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
@Sandstein Lol. Debresser (talk) 18:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Nishidani
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Nishidani
Background
I think it is about time WP:AE put a stop to attempts by Nableezy to discredit editors who disagree with his POV by posting bogus reports here.
- he tried to get it overturned and the appeal was declined.
- Debresser made a person appeal to Lord Roem, and got this reduced to a month
- He told a now banned editor that Nishidani likes to call people names, and is likely to be called to order for that soon enough.(12 August,2016)
- He served his month stating he was not ‘much repentant’.
- 27 September 2016 He went ahead, free of his 3 month topic ban, and took me to AE, unsuccessfully
- On 13 March 2017 jumping into another complaint by yet another editor against me, he repeated more or less what he repeats here.
The Present Instance
Debresser, the discussion at Jordan Valley (Middle East), you admit above, was ‘resolved with general consensus’. You also admit that you ‘hardly participated in the discussion, which was mostly between Icewhiz and Nishidani and Kingindian.’ I.e. as I have said to you for donkey’s ages, you don’t participate productively in consensus building.
Indeed, that whole discussion began because the page came to my attention when an IP removed material, in violation of ARBPIA30#500, and I restored, while adding a contribution. You immediately reverted that edit, saying, in a totally irrational edit summary, that I needed a consensus to edit that page. This was an amazing thing to say: i.e. that someone with 54,000 edits requires a consensus before editing an I/P page. Yes, this implication really pissed me off.
- I duly went to your page, noted that you had broken 1R (I did not run to AE), and asked you to revert yourself, while analysing the 3 specious reasons you gave for reverting me. In my view you consistently revert me from dislike, but that's neither here nor there.
- I might add that Debresser is one of several people who automatically reverts me almost on sight, and he never replies to my complaints that his removal has no rational or policy based motive.
- I had no feedback and so, after 2 days, I restored the irrationally (no known policy based objection) removed material
- Rather than complain to AE, as I told him I might, I went to the AN/I board, not to ‘denounce’ Debresser but simply requested clarification on his view that I had broken 1R (while in his view, reverting on that page twice in 24 hours was not a revert).
- For the record, Debresser did revert, altering restored text, or removing my addition, twice within 24 hours
- 1st revert 14:38, 21 May 2017
- 2nd revert 19:07, 21 May 2017
- Utterly confused about the AE/ARCA ruling, Debresser then posted on my page a threat to take me to AE for a non existent violation, as was clarified by Kingsindian (who however waived commenting on Debresser's 2 reverts within 24 hours). Had I a punitive or vindictive temper, I could easily have brought Debresser to AE. I refrained.
Many editors have complained about Debresser’s inability to contribute with analytic precision to these disputes. He reverts, doesn’t reply to remonstrations, and, in my regard consistently threatens to get me banned for incivility, which is frustration at the exhaustion of time caused by his revert powers, silence or vague stonewalling (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which was what admins noted when he got a 3 month topic ban in July last year). He should be told in very strong terms that a revert must be justified by a clear reference to an intelligible policy guideline, and that one is under an obligation to interact with editors one disagrees with, not just cause endless problems by insisting he, or whoever he supports, is right. Nishidani (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Whatever is decided, I would like a simple explanation of whether the 2 edits I count as reverts are so or not. I don't understand the rule, never will. I am not pushing either for acting on them if they so prove to be. But they were the cause of my frustration. Nishidani (talk) 11:55, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Debresser really is pushing this. In raking over the traces, I noticed a revert he made (only him, and with a wholly subjective edit summary), which I meant to restore, because of an inadequate edit summary. I am reverted so often, that I can no longer really edit in the I/P area. My right has been taken away. As I say, I have long lists of diffs showing how consistently this is done. When I recall them, as here, I put the information back, esp. if it is impeccably sourced, cogent, to the point, and I can see no policy grounds for their erasure . Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, the article esp. the lead is basically, as anyone can see, an indictment, with all contextualization of the behavior regarding Palestinians erased. It is severely unbalanced. So I today restored statistics from Rashid Khalidi, an authority in the area, and Debresser immediately reverted me. Of the few edits (given other, very exhausting work on aboriginal tribes), which I have recently done in the I/P area, Debresser has intervened to revert them. I am a careful editor, and I think natural justice is being denied here. There is nothing in Debresser's complaint, except, on the basis of 2 reverts and a frivolous complaint here, a consideration of WP:Boomerang. Please don't tell me this is a content dispute. It is reverting a targeted editor on sight, and is behavioural. He was treated with leniency by Roem the last time round. I think that should be reconsidered, with at least a stiff warning not to WP:Hound editors. Nishidani (talk) 15:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- SJ, since you also appear to deny me a right to edit in the I/P area (here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here, to name just a few), your support of Debresser is utterly predictable, and not helpful in clarifying anything. I can't get the diff where you tell me to lay off the I/P area and just concentrate on aboriginal tribes. That was extremely offensive, if only because editors are ignoring their responsibility to ensure also that the other side is duly represented.Nishidani (talk) 16:31, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- SJ, since you also appear to deny me a right to edit in the I/P area (here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here, to name just a few), your support of Debresser is utterly predictable, and not helpful in clarifying anything. I can't get the diff where you tell me to lay off the I/P area and just concentrate on aboriginal tribes. That was extremely offensive, if only because editors are ignoring their responsibility to ensure also that the other side is duly represented.Nishidani (talk) 16:31, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Debresser really is pushing this. In raking over the traces, I noticed a revert he made (only him, and with a wholly subjective edit summary), which I meant to restore, because of an inadequate edit summary. I am reverted so often, that I can no longer really edit in the I/P area. My right has been taken away. As I say, I have long lists of diffs showing how consistently this is done. When I recall them, as here, I put the information back, esp. if it is impeccably sourced, cogent, to the point, and I can see no policy grounds for their erasure . Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, the article esp. the lead is basically, as anyone can see, an indictment, with all contextualization of the behavior regarding Palestinians erased. It is severely unbalanced. So I today restored statistics from Rashid Khalidi, an authority in the area, and Debresser immediately reverted me. Of the few edits (given other, very exhausting work on aboriginal tribes), which I have recently done in the I/P area, Debresser has intervened to revert them. I am a careful editor, and I think natural justice is being denied here. There is nothing in Debresser's complaint, except, on the basis of 2 reverts and a frivolous complaint here, a consideration of WP:Boomerang. Please don't tell me this is a content dispute. It is reverting a targeted editor on sight, and is behavioural. He was treated with leniency by Roem the last time round. I think that should be reconsidered, with at least a stiff warning not to WP:Hound editors. Nishidani (talk) 15:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Sandstein. I don’t have much time to waste on a defense, but proposing a 1 month ban wouldn’t change the de facto status quo. Your job's already been done for you, an effective partial permaban is already in place for me on the I/P, save for one article. Apparently administrators have missed this, or it doesn't interest them, but the gravamen of my frustration is that I have been informally banned from editing any I/P article except one, and even there I'm reverted frequently. Any action by arbitrators will only give a formal ARBCOM endorsement of an informal decision by fellow editors with one POV that, in the meantime, has already usurped administrative discretion on this issue. Let me illustrate. I have rarely, except for one article (List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2017) edited in the IP area regularly since January. Of the 2,500+ edits since then, few relate to the I/P area. The very few edits I have undertaken in this area have about a 90% probability of suffering a revert from any one of several people, who in the meantime have reported me for a lack of 'decorum'. I'll just give a few examples (there are plenty more, but I can't afford too much time on this trivia):-
- At Sippenhaft I was reverted by SJ 9 January 2017
- At Al-Dawayima massacre reverted by User:Shrike, who erased a translation of the one Herbrew source as Undue(?!!). I restored it since the pretext was purely subjective. I was in turn reverted by SJ with a false edit summary. RSN has validated Mondoweiss for such things, and the consensus approved). I restored the text because RSN has not invalidated that source. This was again cancelled by User:Jonney2000 on 23 February 2017. I went to the RSN board and had my call endorsed. Shrike refused to accept the verdict, and insisted that I needed their their talk page consent. In sum, the 3 editors tagteamed revert just me. I used the talk page and RSN, got consensus, and they still refused to budge. This was pure stonewalling attrition uniquely in my regard. Their bluff was called by another editor who restored it, over their protests.
- At Michael Sfard User:Shrike reverted on 14 March 2017 an innocuous edit I made documenting that the parents of a human rights lawyer in Israel had survived the holocaust and been expelled from Poland per antisemitism. I went to the RSN board again over the silly meme Mondoweiss cannot be used, and they again ruled in my favour.
- At Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel User:Debresser reverted me on 10 April 2017
At List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2017
- I was reverted by User:Plot Spoiler 9 May 2017 with a false edit summary, since twice this year the RSN board I appealed to endorsed the source he claimed was not RS.
- Reverted by User:Shrike on 9 March 2017
At List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016
- by SJ on 28 February 2017 saying the Gush Shalom page of an eminent Israeli Zionist and parliamentarian Uri Avnery is not RS for a point of Israeli law, everyone knows is true.
- by User:Bolter21 backing Shrike 28 February 2017 asserting that mention of an Israeli law sentencing stone throwers who haven’t hit anyone to 18 months in prison is a POV push.. I.e. any statement of an Israeli law regarding Palestinians is a POV push, I guess.
- Again at List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2017 SJ
13 March 2017 reverts with a false edit summary), as he does on 20 March 2017; on the 29 March 2017 on 31 March 2017 and again by User:Bolter21 13 March 2017
At Jordan Valley (Middle East)
- I was reverted by Debresser 21 May 2017. The es suggests I uniquely need consensus to edit the article and he followed up false edit summary with threat to report me to AE here 23 May 2017:
- Debresser reverts me 20 March 2017 by erasing the material from the lead, rather than putting it somewhere else. This was restored and put down the page by User:Poliocretes That meant Nishidani+Poliocretes were for inclusion against Debresser's holdout. Notwithstanding this Debresser immediately reverted Poliocretes again.I restored it because Debresser was alone in his opinion, and was immediately reverted by Debresser again, who on the talk page stated bizarrely 'A "consensus" of 2:1 is no consensus.’. His erasure of a detail concerning the Christian presence in ancient Israeli still stands, unfortunately. He won’t budge against the majority.
- At Marwan Barghouti I was again reverted by No More Mr Nice Guy on 10 May 2017 The editor made no effort to compromise, going from my full exposition of Barghouti's trial controversy, to a one line summary. The WP:BLP violation is all over the page.
To this one might add that this year at least I have been reported several times basically by the people who keep reverting me. I remember 3:
- (1)on 20 April (by User:Cyrus the Penner an obvious sockpuppet)
- (2)13 March 2017 by SJ (piddling, but a 24 hour suspension, I took on the chin)
- ([3) 27 May, this case by Debresser
I know the response already, i.e.these are content disputes. No. Several of those revert stories are utterly farcical (Michael Sfard,Archaeology of Israel,Al-Dawayima massacre,etc) and any neutral review could not but conclude that the reverts were factitious forms of targeting an editor, while ensuring that relevant material one dislikes is kept off the encyclopedia. When no other editor has this degree of reversion imposed on him on the few articles he still touches in the area, it means either after 54,000 edits I am incompetent, or, uniquely, some idiosyncratic POV warrior who throws the caution he exercises on all other articles (where I am never reverted) to the wind, or . . .there is a consistent pattern on editorial enmity over my presence there, by several editors who, with one exception (Bolter21) have never thought that the I/P area must be governed by WP:NPOV, and that they must ensure both sides are duly represented. In any case, I'll make it easy for you guys. I'll retire from Wikipedia. If you can't see even an inkling of something wrong (I readily admit I find a lot of this mechanical revert behavior outrageous stonewalling ), also on the plaintiffs' side, then it is pointless using what time I have to contribute anywhere here.Nishidani (talk) 13:56, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
Most of the comments above have little or no relation to the main complaint. Also, many of the comments go both ways: the second "kindergarten" diff was a reply to Debresser's comment to Nishidani to stop being a "patronizing dick", in response to the first diff. I don't know, but this comment by Debresser might count as "denigrating" editors.
For context, please read the discussion at Talk:Jordan_Valley_(Middle_East)#Jordan_Valley. The main problem is that the term "Jordan Valley" is ambiguous, having at least three meanings. After a very long discussion, we were able to get a consensus on the scope of the article. As I say on Debresser's user talkpage, the overall discussion was focused on content. All participants brought various sources to the discussion, we argued, and finally got consensus. I call that a success we can build on. I don't know why Debresser chose to bring this complaint here when the discussion was ultimately fruitful. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
Really, Debresser, really?? Is this the best you can come up with?
Though I wouldn't mind seeing Nishidani using a bit fewer "for fuck's sake" or "Piss off" ...with the diffs Debresser have brought here he is trying to make a tempest in a teacup. Seriously.
(We are editing in the IP area, where things tend to get a bit ...rough. (I was promised to be boiled alive couple of days ago on commons.) I would like to give Debresser the advice "Grow up!" ...but I guess he will consider that a violation of "Decorum", too.) Huldra (talk) 22:52, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- Debresser, you are misrepresenting my views. I never called Nishidanis comments "inappropriate". Btw, just a couple of days ago, someone called me "a racist" on my user page, something I find extremely insulting. But that doesn't mean that I go crying off to the AE board to have the editor sanctioned because of it...Huldra (talk) 23:53, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Icewhiz
Since I was a side to some of these diffs in Talk:Jordan_Valley_(Middle_East)#Jordan_Valley and Talk:Jordan_Valley_(Middle_East)#Demolitions and evictions in the West Bank - NPOV and UNDUE- I will throw in my 2-cents. I for one, was not offended by incivility thrown my way, I have a thick skin. I was however flummoxed by the initial suggestion to redefine the Jordan Valley as being contained in the West Bank - which was patently absurd (by any definition of the Jordan Valley) - though understandable if one has a knowing of the area only via the very narrow Palestinian human-rights context. I was frustrated by the approx. 27 retorts (to which mostly I responded, I hope civilly) to the refutation of the initial claim and that only approx. a third the Jordan Valley is in the West Bank - something that is quite visible on several maps (which led to whether a map is an accepted source argument). This was a long back and forth on an extremely simple geographical fact, which shouldn't have been that long.Icewhiz (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Malik Shabazz
I have nothing to add about the complaint against Nishidani, but I think Black Kite's suggestion that Debresser be restricted is inappropriate at this point. I don't believe he has a particularly bad record of bringing meritless complaints here against editors with whom he disagrees. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 11:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph
This is not the first, nor second, and most likely not third as well, time Nishidani has been brought here or to ANI for civility issues. He is extremely condescending and nasty to editors and really doesn't help make this a pleasant atmosphere for collaboration. He has been warned about this and there does come a point where something has to happen. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Nishidani's most recent edit of his just proves that he is unable to edit here without personalizing the dispute. (it's also very sneaky, as I'm sure many people will not look at those diffs, and you just post diffs of reversions (which everyone has), you also post duplicates, and you also post diffs of other users. Very sneaky indeed) Sir Joseph (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphim System
I don't think there is any denying that editors who are perceived to have a "pro-Palestine" or "anti-Israel" POV are, essentially, targeted in the ARBPIA area. If you ask me, edit summaries to the effect of "reverting POV pushing edit" or "reverting because of editors POV" are also personal comments—but this is usually not considered disruptive or actionable. However, in effect, it is extremely disruptive and it is damaging to NPOV. I don't think it is good to respond with personal comments, but I also understand the immense frustration that stems from the battleground mentality of editors in this area, and the seeming helplessness of admins to contain it. In the highlighted diffs, I see personal attacks that run both ways - I don't think an editor should file a complaint about personal attacks after calling someone a "patronizing dick"
, which was Debressers response to Nishidanis comment that "Opinions count for zilch in editing. We are obliged to use sources."
(not a personal attack). After the "patronizing dick"
comment Nishidani replied "This is kindergarten level advice"
. — Debresser has been cautioned in the past about escalating situations through the very bad behavior that he accuses others of—this seems to be yet another example of what is routine behavior on his part. Seraphim System (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Debresser: It's only a problem when editors are prevented from legitimately adding sourced balancing content to articles because of other editors POV, and thus routinely an endemicly subjected to personal attacks and non-policy based arguments that amount to "So and so can't edit because their POV is different from mine" - that is not how NPOV in articles works. The article content in ARBPIA is inarguably biased, so when you say "Pro-Israel editors are targeted" it sounds like you are whining that some editors are trying to maintain NPOV standards in articles on a topic where you think you should be given special treatment because it's only POV-pushing when other people do it. Seraphim System (talk) 19:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy
Since Nishidani summoned me here by mentioning my name, I would like to make the following points:
- Calling someone a liar ("Look up the word 'prevarication'") or incapable of rational thought ("If you cannot think syllogistically, don't comment") are obvious personal attacks. Rather than saying they aren't, you guys should stick to the traditional "he might not have behaved perfectly but we can use our discretion to let him off the hook", for appearances' sake.
- Nishidani has been warned about the way he treats other editors multiple times. Most importantly note Xeno's comment here. Some of us warned about his behavior when his original ARBPIA topic ban was removed. This was supposed to be the forum where that was dealt with.
- Nishidani regularly says he's quitting Wikipedia or putting himself under self-imposed topic bans. Those things never materialize.
No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:32, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Nishidani
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- As far as i can see, practically none of those diffs (most of which are taken out of context of the full diff) rise to the level of AE enforcement; indeed, most of them seem reasonable in the circumstances of the relevant dispute. It is probably time that some sort of restriction is placed on Debresser with regard to bringing people with whom he disagrees with to AE. Black Kite (talk) 22:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- Can I clarify; I am not suggesting banning Debresser from bringing cases here (I would have said "ban" instead of "restriction"), but perhaps it would be wise for him - except in very obvious cases - to check with another experienced editor or admin before doing so? The same issue has been occurring at WP:ANI, as well. Black Kite (talk) 11:54, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree about the "most of them seem[ing] reasonable"—some are not, and that goes for both parties. The more contentious a topic is, the more we have to insist on moderate language and maintaining decorum, precisely because a topic is heated. I'm tired of contentious topics turning into a toxic editing environment due to editors not being able to restrain themselves. So, no, not par for the course. But, that also goes for explaining reverts in cogent and comprehensive way, and frustration born from failing that. *** That said, I agree that there's nothing actionable here as far as Arbitration Enforcement. As for the latest ARCA ruling, I have edited the pagenotice to reflect the latest Arbitration Committee motion, so there should be no confusion there from now on. El_C 11:35, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- I would urge Nishidani to reconsider leaving Wikipedia over this. There's more to this project than ARBPIA, where burnout is, indeed, staggeringly high. El_C 18:44, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- I agree (mostly) with Black Kite. Reading through the diffs (and following them to the context) they are not of the level required for enforcement. Collectively, however, I can see that they can be frustrating and not unworthy of an AE complaint and I don't think this should be used to restrict Debresser from filing AE requests. (I also think El C's edit to the ruling is better - less ambiguity is a good thing). --regentspark (comment) 16:43, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- I do think these edits are actionable because they personalize disputes rather than focusing on the content (and Nishidani's response is more of the same, disregarding WP:NOTTHEM). The "Piss off" is a personal attack even though it was submitted already struck through. I would topic-ban Nishidani for a month to give them the opportunity to focus on less stressful topics. As to the reverting rules according to the ARBPIA123456etc. rulings, they have become so complicated that I've given up on trying to understand or apply them, and so won't even try here. Sandstein 07:12, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- I agree fully with Black Kite, i.e. with both his posts above. How is "Piss off" a personal attack? Bishonen | talk 19:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC).
- I would say "Piss off" is not a personal attack, but is uncivil (a broader category than personal attacks, but no less disruptive to encyclopedia-building). The condescending remarks are alarming. It seems clear to me that both parties, however, have been uncivil here (i.e., comment telling another user to stop being a "patronizing dick" followed by "kindergarten" diff). Ordinarily, I would close this with an admonition to all parties editing in the (contentious) area to be civil, avoid condescending remarks, and keep discussion narrowly focused on specific content. But that exact thing happened at AE previously (Oct. 7, 2016 close by The Wordsmith: "All parties are cautioned that further breaches in civility occurring after this date in the PIA topic area will be be met with swift action at a lower threshold than has traditionally been the case. Parties are urged to spend some time reflecting inwardly on their own conduct, and whether it is truly appropriate for an online encyclopedia. No further action is taken at this time. The parties are advised to chill."). Not sure on outcome. Neutralitytalk 19:33, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Taken as a pattern, I do believe Nishidani's civility problem is indeed a problem that needs to address. I don't see it brought up in this particular complaint, but this was brought up on my talkpage fairly recently. Things like "from your nationalist perspective" and "the usual Israeli POV pushers deny mention of the fact" is further evidence that he's unduly personalizing things. Had the diff not already been six weeks old at that point, I would have issued a block or ban. However, while none of these are individually bad enough to warrant a block or ban, when taken as a whole I firmly believe that both Nishidani and the ARBPIA topic area would be better off if he didn't participate for a while. When I gave that warning I did mean it, and Nishidani's conduct since then has reaffirmed that stricter measures are needed here. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Gahgeer
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Gahgeer
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Shrike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Gahgeer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [205]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The user not meet the criteria for editing the I/P article it was explained to him and he was given an alert about the sanctions and yet he seems to edit the articles anyhow.It seems that per this thread [206] he will continue to edit the articles--Shrike (talk) 14:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Gahgeer
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Gahgeer
Statement by Gahgeer
I really find it strange that there are calls for blocking me because I corrected a subjective description of a commander on a disambiguation page (Red Prince).
My edit on that page was simply removing the word "[sic] Terrorist" and replacing it with a commander, a description that was taken from the figure's own Wiki page. I find it strange that this edit stayed there for several months, until I became more active recently (specifically after I made comments on the Talk page of Dalal Mughrabi) in which I pointed to complete false information that was inserted by editing. This is when one user started hounding me and reversed that edit.
All my edits were not subjective and merely I either corrected wrong information, provided more content. In some cases, my suggestion resulted in complete overhaul of articles that were otherwise based on fake information. See examples here:
Arab Peace Initiative: I corrected a major blunder which attributed the Israeli decision to a completely wrong prime minister.
United States foreign aid: Corrected a gross misrepresentation of the US aid to the Palestinian Authority (and discussed it on the Talk page too)
Dill: Corrected the Arabic translation of the word Dill.
Honor killing: Updated the Palestine section with information on recently passed law.
Palestinian Preventive Security: Updated and corrected the information on this page from trusted sources.
Francis E. Meloy Jr.: Updated information on CIA findings from recent leaks.
Draft: Jihad al-Wazir: Researched and created a profile of this person based on a request on Wikiproject Palestine (it is still a draft).
To say that my personal page constitutes a basis for blocking is utter oppression. What is even worse is to make a motion for blocking me because I corrected a disambiguation page that was not protected and was placed as part of the protection rule only by the biased editor who reported me. The protection rules was meant to save articles from vandalism. My record on Wikipedia is everything but that as shown above.
I also find it honestly sad that as someone who began to dedicate more time to Wikipedia is being hounded and punished just like this. Wikipedia should welcome new users not bully them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gahgeer (talk • contribs) 10:30, 31 May, 2017 (UTC)
- @NeilN I have no problem with that rule whatsoever evident by how I discussed changes on Talk: Dalal Mughrabi and Talk: Palestine Liberation Organization. My concern that I was accused of violating the rule when it was not clear it applied to a disambiguation page (and even now, the revert in my opinion shows a completely subjective treatment of the topic but I digress). I have no problem complying with the rule (because I have been doing so in the first place). I'd like to turn this page over and move on. Gahgeer (talk) 19:37, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Question by jd2718
Does the arbitration decision allow editors to revert Gahgeer's edits on sight? I'm a bit surprised by the automatic reverts. Jd2718 (talk) 20:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Result concerning Gahgeer
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Gahgeer first edited in 2008, although he is not remotely close to the 500 limit. Still, this is a bit of a different circumstance. His user page makes his bias pretty clear. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:43, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Looking at his talk page, it is possible he really didn't understand. The page wasn't extprot until after his edit. It isn't an intuitive policy, so I'm willing to give a little benefit of the doubt, but only a little. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- I've left a note on their talk page encouraging them to come here. They edit so little, they might not even notice a block, so I'm more focused on making sure it doesn't happen again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:04, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, what do you do about someone who arguably didn't know about them? In good faith, I can see that potential. I agree the reply didn't help, but the restriction isn't intuitive and really we should be applying the extprot to all articles that clearly apply, and being a little understanding in cases where the editor doesn't know because it is easy to do for a new editor (or in this case, old but infrequent editor). I'm a bit stuck here as to what we should do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:08, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- I have to agree there has been a lack of willingness to listen. I can forgive a bit of this, being upset he was dragged to AE about a editing an article that wasn't protected, but that doesn't take you far and I agree at some point you should be wise enough to say "I didn't know, weird rule, I won't break it again.". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Based on his positive response to NeilN's question, I'm happy to just leave this as a warning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Jd2718, that is a good question and I'm not aware of a perfect answer, but it would seem so since that editor was not supposed to be editing that article. Reverting is restoring the article as if the infraction didn't take place. Other (500/30 qualified) editors are welcome to add back the material, as the infraction isn't about the content, it is about the user not qualifying to insert it. It would be an editorial decision, not related to the Arb restriction. This assumes the material doesn't violate other Arb restrictions on PI articles. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:03, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- I am afraid the user should be blocked since they were very clear they are not interested in stopping editing the articles.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:54, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- User:Gahgeer has left a response above which doesn't inspire confidence. The options that remain for us seem to be block, ban or final warning, They made no response at all regarding the concern that led to this AE, about disobeying the 500-edit restriction. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Dennis: Once a discussion has begun with the editor, we should expect them to start paying attention. So whatever rules he didn't know previously is not so relevant. He has shown he is willing to answer here, but not to address the concern. Originally I was going to say 'Final warning not to edit ARBPIA before 500 edits' but everything he has said so far (including what is on his user page) suggests he is unlikely to listen. He can show he is listening by addressing the concern. EdJohnston (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Jd2718: Arbcom calls the 500-edit limit a 'general prohibition'. They are not employing the word 'ban'. If they did, it would be correct to assume that WP:BANREVERT applies. In general, I would not personally revert a prohibited edit unless I thought it was a bad idea. Assuming I was working as a regular content editor. EdJohnston (talk) 21:18, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Dennis: Once a discussion has begun with the editor, we should expect them to start paying attention. So whatever rules he didn't know previously is not so relevant. He has shown he is willing to answer here, but not to address the concern. Originally I was going to say 'Final warning not to edit ARBPIA before 500 edits' but everything he has said so far (including what is on his user page) suggests he is unlikely to listen. He can show he is listening by addressing the concern. EdJohnston (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- I've asked a direct question. [207] Let's see if we get a direct answer. --NeilN talk to me 19:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)