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:Given this situation, I maintain that I was well within policy to consider that SPECIFICO's BLP claim was unjustified and to revert him, and that he breached DS rules with his counter-revert. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC) |
:Given this situation, I maintain that I was well within policy to consider that SPECIFICO's BLP claim was unjustified and to revert him, and that he breached DS rules with his counter-revert. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC) |
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:; What if we couldn't revert spurious BLPVIO claims? |
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:Welcome to [[Talk:2016 United States election interference by Russia#The alternative BLP-friendly encyclopedia according to SPECIFICO and OID|The alternative BLP-friendly encyclopedia according to SPECIFICO and OID]] {{p}} — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 02:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC) |
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:; Responses to boomerang claims against me |
:; Responses to boomerang claims against me |
Revision as of 02:14, 14 February 2017
Kuioooooo
No action taken. Sandstein 13:43, 7 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Kuioooooo
Even before my alert, he has been reverting other users without gaining consensus. Furthermore, this sentence of his, "He has received multiple loans from Israel’s largest bank, Bank Hapoalim, a publicly held banking corporation organized and operating under Israeli law, and subject to comprehensive supervision by the Government of Israel-owned Bank of Israel." seems to me to be just a weasley way to include that Kushner has a loan from Bank Hapoalim. Every bank in the world is under comprehensive supervision of the government of the country they are in. Bank Hapoalim is not a government bank and merely having a loan outstanding from that bank is not a government connection. I have also given the editor a courtesy notice to revert and discuss but that went unheeded. User is a new editor and perhaps doesn't know the rules, but I have tried to engage and judging from his recent posts seems to be pushing an agenda.
Also, the NYTimes source was not in the edit, it was added recently. In addition, I don't appreciate being called a sockpuppet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kuioooooo&oldid=764067119 Discussion concerning KuiooooooStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by KuiooooooI only revert once in 24 hrs, as allowed by the discretionary sanctions, and only reverted Sir Joseph once ever.--Kuioooooo (talk) 21:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC) That said, Sir Joseph removed well-sourced relevant content that have been in the article for sometime, and after getting reverted, they are supposed to get consensus before attempting to remove the extant version again.--Kuioooooo (talk) 21:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC) The whole section was removed earlier by a new account with 17 edits to date, the first 10 being on their own Sandbox [1] That editor was reverted by Jim1138 [2]. I strongly believe some kind of sockpuppetry is going on here.--Kuioooooo (talk) 22:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Also see Talk:Jared Kushner (Government relations section), user Sir Joseph first pretended that they couldn't find the NYTimes source that's been in the article for sometime, then claiming that stating relevant facts as they are, under relevant section, is not right.--Kuioooooo (talk) 22:19, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Kuioooooo
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Islington Bloor
Disallowed RfC comment struck, user blocked for a week for personal attacks. Sandstein 17:58, 9 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Islington Bloor
I probably don't think any sanction is warranted against a user(though some of the comments of the user raise the question if the user is really new) but I ask that EC protection should be applied on a Talk:Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy till the end of the RFC as new users can't participate in it per language of the restriction " This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, noticeboard discussions, etc."
Discussion concerning Islington BloorStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Islington BloorAs I said when I restored the comment it's improper for an involved editor to remove someone else's comment. The closing admin can decide for themselves whether to accord my comment less weight becauee I'm a new editor. It's not for Shrike to, using a technicality as a pretext, ynilaterally remove a comment he coincidentally happens to disagree with.
Statement by IazygesI don't think this breaks any DS, but I do think it should get sent to either SPI, or ANI. That they commented in an RFC (or even found one) is suspicious for a new user, considering they commented before even creating their own user page. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:44, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Sir JosephI don't think any action is warranted, at this point. We can just strike the comment at the RFC. If the editor continues to unstrike or reinsert the comment, then further action can be taken. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:23, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Exemplo347This is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen an attempt by someone to get an Arb. Sanction widened because they're having a dispute with someone else. The standard methods of resolving disputes are more than sufficient to deal with comments in an RfC discussion - Dispute Resolution, AIV, SPI, even AN/I - those processes all work very well. Arb Sanctions aren't some secret weapon that can be deployed to shut users down, bypassing the usual processes that the vast majority of editors have to go through. Statement by (username)Result concerning Islington Bloor
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by dailey78
Appeal declined. Establish a solid track record of editing peacefully in unrelated and topic areas, and then try again in 6–12 months. --Laser brain (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by dailey78I have made numerous useful contributions to the various articles regarding Ancient Egypt. They have enriched the site and made it more encyclopedic. Three years ago, I received a topic ban for editing a highly contentious and controversial article, which is guaranteed to produce disagreement (hence the controversy). After three years, it seems unreasonable and unfair that this ban is still being enforced. Is it a murder conviction? I would like the ban lifted, because my contributions have and continue to enrich the site. In fact, a lot of what you read in various articles on Ancient Egypt, I contributed. Also, without my edits the specific article about the Ancient Egyptian Race Controversy, quickly loses balances and devolves into an article that is not befitting an encyclopedia. If you have not been involved in a topic ban before, I don't think a reasonable person would assume that the ban would last for 3 years. I was made aware of the violation today. I only read the fine print of the ban after Ed Johnston suggested that I reread it today. Yes, it's meant to be taken seriously. I have edited articles on mini dental implants and other dental implants. My primary interest in Wikipedia is history and specifically Egyptian history, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that most of my edits have been around A.E. Some of the articles on A.E. are not contentious and I've made many edits that were helpful and improved the articles without incident. I am essentially being given this multi-year ban for editing an article that is extremely contentious. Everyone that attempts to edit the article ends up in contentious discussions on the Talk page. It is extremely difficult to make any improvement to such a contentious article without offending someone. We've learned to discuss it on the Talk page and move on with our lives. At the end of the day, these articles are in much better shape after I started editing them than before my contributions (speaking as objectively as possible about my own work).Rod (talk) 22:53, 9 February 2017 (UTC) Laserbrain suggested that I post the following conversation from their Talk page:
(Admin note: Statement exceeding 500 words removed. Sandstein 21:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)) Statement by EdJohnstonStatement by Doug Wellerdaily78 writes ": On Feb. 5, 2017 editor [Temple3] edited the article and removed the word "fringe" because it alters the balance and is not NPOV. Following the lead of [Temple3], I removed the word "fringe" three days later from a different sentence. That's two editors agreeing that "fringe" is inappropriate for the article. However, editor Doug Weller reverted us and reintroduced "fringe". What actually happened is that Temple3, with their first edit since 2012-05-21, removed the word fringe. I did not revert that edit or replace that instance of the word fringe. My edit summary clearly says "Reverted to revision 763853201 by Temple3 (talk): Rv edits by topic banned editor." The first bit of that, "Reverted to revision 763853201 by Temple3 (talk)", is of course not something I wrote but is what the software adds. I'm not going to get into the content discussion, but I'm disturbed by the fact that I obviously didn't revert Temple3 but am accused of doing so. All I did was revert the posts of a banned editor. Doug Weller talk 11:43, 10 February 2017 (UTC) Rod, what I would suggest is that you spend six months editing in other areas that interest you. There must be some, and if you can find areas that do have issues that require careful work within our policies where you can show that you understand and can work within them well, I believe an appeal would be successful. Doug Weller talk 21:53, 10 February 2017 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by dailey78Result of the appeal by dailey78
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Asilah1981
No action—incorrect venue. Please use WP:AN/I. --Laser brain (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Asilah1981
I require enforcement at breach of agreement after a long Incident discussion (see Incident link below) and continuous litigation and irregular editing by the editor in question, as well as successive incremental blocks and eventually an alternative, constructive sanction to a block, 3 month mentoring, that has eventually been equally breached by the editor, as detailed by the mentor User:Irondome [6] and [7]
The editor has changed during mentoring the overall tone of his language. He has also blanked most of his talk page lately [9] for which he is entitled anyway. However, evidence of irregular editing has not change.
Discussion concerning Asilah1981Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Asilah1981Statement by (username)Result concerning Asilah1981
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Neptune's Trident
Blocked for two months for topic ban violations. Sandstein 17:29, 11 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Neptune's Trident
There was a brief discussion about potential topic-ban violations here and here, but it doesn't look like anything happened. Pinging @HJ Mitchell: as requested in that last link. @EdJohnston: I can't find a diff of someone directly telling him about the connections, no. He was alerted to a discussion at User talk:zzuuzz where the connection was discussed, but he did not join that conversation. It's entirely possible that he never read the discussion and that he didn't make the connection on any of the articles. That being said, even assuming a great deal of good faith, it's implausible. The articles mention GamerGate, as do Sad Puppies and Milo Yiannopoulos, both of which he edited on 25 October 2016 (SP, MY). On Vox Day, he filled in citation templates on articles that mention GamerGate (1, 2, 3) which suggests he read them, and he edited a paragraph mentioning GamerGate (1). On Mike Cernovich, he added a block of text from a New Yorker article that mentions the connection, which again suggests he read the article. Woodroar (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Neptune's TridentStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Neptune's TridentStatement by (username)Statement by KellyIf this user is under a topic ban regarding Gamergate-associated subjects, then the editing on Vox Day can be considered a violation - the article subject's blog contains the Gamergate hashtag in the header. On 25 October 2016, I also warned this editor about adding the category "Alt-right writers" to the BLPs of science fiction authors associated with Sad Puppies, which is also considered by many to be Gamergate associated. (See the Sad Puppies article for refs). These controversial edits to BLPs were frequently made without any reference to reliable sources. Kelly hi! 01:59, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Result concerning Neptune's Trident
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Guccisamsclub
No action taken. Sandstein 12:04, 13 February 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Guccisamsclub
None
Discussion concerning GuccisamsclubStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Guccisamsclub
So who was making the personal attack here? I'm confused.
Before complaining here, why not actually read the damn article from politiFACT, not CO, as I've already told Steve on the talk page. I've implored Steve read the immediately relevant source several times, to no avail. It seems he still hasn't done so.
That was retracted and crossed out as potentially impolite, though arguably accurate. Why didn't he even mention that?
I actually haven't edited the article much at all (!), because I know that several editors will simply revert any edit they find controversial. Under 1RR and Abcom, this means that it's very hard to mount a counter-challenge. So what is actually meant by my "battleground attitude"? Refusing to agree with Steve on the talk page? Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO@Sandstein: There have been many instances in which Guccisamsclub appears to have violated the provision of DS that states, “Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion).” For example, he reinserted text reverted by me, @MrX: and @Volunteer Marek:. On Guccisamsclub's talk page, I asked him not to do this, but he declined here. Guccisamsclub appears to deny that these are violations, so as long as he is here at AE, I thought we could ask to have that question adjudicated. In the DS environment, various editors have said that it feels like edit-warring and it feels like he should not be editing in American Politics articles. I expect that I'll now face the customary barrage of off-topic attacks for appearing here, but I will try to step back and let the Admin process work. Statement by (username)Result concerning Guccisamsclub
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SPECIFICO
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning SPECIFICO
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- JFG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:41, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAPDS
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 10 February 2017, 03:34 SPECIFICO deletes some content (that's fine), with rationale "Delete BLP smear unproven libelous allegation against James Clapper";
- 10 February 2017, 19:21 I revert him, arguing "Opinion is attributed and grounded in facts, not a BLP violation";
- 11 February 2017, 00:22 He reverts me, violating DS/1RR by reinstating a challenged edit, with comment "BLP Smear unless it has been adjudicated in a court of law";
- 11 February 2017, 07:13 I start a discussion on the Talk page, providing a detailed rationale behind my restoring the deleted material, and I urge SPECIFICO to self-revert until the question is settled by a proper debate;
- 11 February 2017, 07:14 Thucydides411 restores the material, stating: "There's no policy saying that opinions that haven't been proven in a court of law can't be included" (which happens to be one of my 6 arguments for keeping the disputed contents);
- 11 February 2017, 13:21 SPECIFICO replies with "Alert! This text is not worded to state "opinion" or "commentary". Edit warring. BLP violation." without rebutting any of my 6 arguments. The disputed text is fully and repeatedly attributed as an opinion by its authors, cited in a reputable newspaper. The accused person is a WP:PUBLICFIGURE, his false testimony is a matter of public record (see James Clapper#False testimony to Congress on NSA surveillance programs) and he even admitted having (unwittingly of course) misled Congress.
- 12 February 2017, 20:28 SPECIFICO deletes a chunk of material from the same quote, while the discussion is ongoing between several editors, thus committing a second DS violation.
- The text is restored by Thucydides411, erased by Volunteer Marek and reinstated by Guccisamsclub : 12 February 2017, 21:02, 21:48 and 22:19
- Just noticed this while preparing this report: Right after his first removal of material which refers to Clapper's false testimony, SPECIFICO discreetly goes sanitize Clapper's own article, trampling on longstanding content which undermines his position: 10 February 2017, 03:41 and 03:45. I'm not reverting those out of respect for the dispute resolution process, but wow, this does stretch the limits of good faith!
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Warned in May 2016 by Coffee, December 2016 by Sagecandor and January 2017 by Octoberwoodland. Participated in numerous WP:AE threads and launched some.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Not only SPECIFICO violates sanctions that he knows well, but he also neglects to self-revert when warned, ignores the arguments against his BLPVIO stance and only contributes to the ensuing editor discussion via vague innuendo against an imagined cabal of "freaks and geeks" who are "glued to their computers 24/7" in order to "edit war BLP violations back into articles over and over". After other editors on both sides of the argument have exchanged some detailed and reasonable views, SPECIFICO comes back to say unconstructive stuff like: since disruptive editors may be highly motivated and extraordinarily observant, a fog of POV edits, policy violations, and counterattack strategies at Arbcom Enforcement are successful strategies in many cases
, which I must admit I have trouble parsing. His inflammatory comments demonstrate a failure to hear other editors or participate constructively in a civil discussion, in which 8 editors argue to keep the disputed material and 6 to remove it. — JFG talk 07:23, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Admin note: Removed text exceeding 500 words. Sandstein 11:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Filer's note: Removed extra material on the content dispute which I had provided in response to other editors' now-deleted statements. Reworded and shortened my further comments on the merits of the DS case vs BLPVIO claim. — JFG talk 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- On the BLP argument
- Here is the disputed prose as it stood before SPECIFICO deleted the second sentence as a "BLP smear unproven libelous allegation":
Writing in the Baltimore Sun, William Binney and Ray McGovern criticized the report published by the FBI and DHS on December 29, commenting that it "fell embarrassingly short" of the goal of proving Russian hacking.[1] Binney and McGovern wrote that given Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's false testimony to Congress over NSA surveillance of Americans, and his involvement in building the WMD case against Iraq, skepticism about his claims of Russian hacking are warranted. Binney and McGovern proposed that the DNC emails were leaked by an insider, rather than hacked and exfiltrated by an outside group.[1]
- A BLP statement can be removed on sight per WP:3RRBLP if it is
libelous, biased, unsourced or poorly sourced
. This paragraph is impeccably sourced and attributed no less than three times to the authors, at the start of each sentence. Absolutely nothing is stated in wikivoice. There is no libel, as Clapper's false testimony and his participation in the Iraq WMD story are a matter of public record. Here's Clapper admitting his "erroneous response" to Congress, as reported by The Guardian and cited in Wikipedia:On July 1, 2013, Clapper issued an apology, saying that "My response was clearly erroneous—for which I apologize."[2]
If it is considered a BLPVIO to cite some intelligence experts who use this fact in their argument about another high-level intelligence controversy involving Clapper, then let's see the same dissenters purge Clapper's article from all such accusations, which are numerous.
- Given this situation, I maintain that I was well within policy to consider that SPECIFICO's BLP claim was unjustified and to revert him, and that he breached DS rules with his counter-revert. — JFG talk 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Binney, William; McGovern, Ray (January 5, 2017). "Emails were leaked, not hacked". The Baltimore Sun. Retrieved January 5, 2017.
- ^ Roberts, Dan and Spencer Ackerman. "Clapper under pressure despite apology for 'erroneous' statements to Congress." The Guardian. Monday July 1, 2013. Retrieved on July 2, 2013.
- What if we couldn't revert spurious BLPVIO claims?
- Welcome to The alternative BLP-friendly encyclopedia according to SPECIFICO and OID — JFG talk 02:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- Responses to boomerang claims against me
- @Laser brain: Nowhere in my report did I allege that SPECIFICO reverted more than once in 24 hours. Rather, I showed that he re-instated an edit which had been challenged by reversion (violation 1), and then cut the text again while the discussion among many editors was ongoing (violation 2), without participating constructively in said discussion. — JFG talk 07:29, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Casprings: Your example is another case of me challenging the blanket removal of relevant material; it is perfectly legit, and you are the one who breached DS by reverting my challenge, although it would have been cleaner if another editor had done the counter-revert, for which I apologize. In today's case, several editors intervened on both sides of the argument, which unfortunately turned into a mild edit war. Had SPECIFICO abided by DS by leaving my revert alone, no warring would have occurred. — JFG talk 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: You are ignoring the policy basis for my edits: SPECIFICO wrongly reverted
challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page
. His CRYBLP claim is untenable, as demonstrated above. — JFG talk 19:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Done [21]
Discussion concerning SPECIFICO
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by SPECIFICO
I want to keep this as brief and to the point as possible. I did not violate the DS on this article. The text in question constitutes an egregious BLP violation. I’m sorry to see CRYBLP mentioned here. It’s not at all applicable either to the content or to any of my behavior on WP. It’s not my bag. My view as to this BLP violation was supported by half a dozen editors on the article talk page. That doesn't happen when there's a disruptive or disingenuous CRYBLP event.
On WP, I have learned that edit warring is pointless. I follow 1RR almost all the time on ‘’all’’ articles. If I see somebody undo a revert on a DS article, I ignore it or I go to their talk page and ask them to undo their error. That’s about as much as I engage with that behavior. Sometimes they thank me, sometimes they cuss. I don’t pursue it, and I don’t use such violations as an excuse to edit-war. I do cite wikilinks to policies in caps on article talk pages. I'm surprised to see that disparaged or mischaracterized as threats.
I’m disappointed that JFG filed this groundless complaint, which appears to be retaliatory, coming 15 minutes after I cited some 1RR violations in Guccisamsclub’s recent case. Also, for the record, JFG states that I have initiated AE cases in the past. I have not. It’s a false and irrelevant aspersion responding to the simple question whether I know DS is in place. SPECIFICO talk 01:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Admin note: Statement removed because it contains no actionable evidence, in the form of dated diffs, relevant to the request. This is not a discussion forum. Sandstein 11:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Thucydides411
Admin note: Statement removed because it contains no actionable evidence, in the form of dated diffs, relevant to the request. This is not a discussion forum. Sandstein 11:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by OID
Admin note: Statement removed because it contains no actionable evidence, in the form of dated diffs, relevant to the request. This is not a discussion forum. Sandstein 11:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I can help you with diffs as to if a restriction was actually breached:
- First removal - not a revert 03:34 10th Feb.
- Second removal - 1st revert 00:22 11th Feb.
- Third removal - 2nd revert 20:28 12th Feb. More than 24 hours since last revert. Does not violate 1rr discretionary sanctions. And even if it did, unless there is consensus the raised BLP issue is not a BLP issue, revert-restrictions are exempt for BLP-related removals.
On the other hand we have JFG:
- First revert 19:21 10th Feb
- Second revert 07:12 12th Feb. More than 24 hours since last revert but contrary to BLP policy for removal of material with a good faith BLP concern AND the discretionary sanctions which explicitly state "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit."
So Specifico has acted according to both policy and the sanctions and JFG clearly has not. And thats just the specific BLP issue, there is other material which has been discussed to be contentious which has also been reverted multiple times. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:47, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Guccisamsclub
Admin note: Statement removed because it contains no actionable evidence, in the form of dated diffs, relevant to the request. This is not a discussion forum. Sandstein 11:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Concerning Darouet's statement, I'm not removing it as I did the others because it has diffs and is mostly on topic. However, I find it unconvincing. I'm reputed to be the hardest of hard-liners in civility enforcement, but I can't find a clearly actionable incivility in the reported diffs. Making confusing and "edgy" statements is normally not enough for sanctions in individual cases. It may become actionable if it is a longterm pattern of conduct that inhibits or disrupts productive discussion
My list of quotes and diffs from the editor was meant to establish precisely that: a long-term pattern of nonsensical, unfocused, unsourced, fringe and inconsiderate contributions. This has been erased, due to the fact that most quotes lacked diffs. If this is really an issue here, I'd be glad to provide the diffs (which would take a couple hours to assemble given the sheer volume of contribs). Guccisamsclub (talk) 16:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Darouet
Prior to SPECIFICO's removal the paragraph clearly couched all content in terms of Binney's and McGovern's views: William Binney… has expressed doubt... In Harper's Magazine, he told Andrew Cockburn... Writing in the Baltimore Sun, William Binney and Ray McGovern criticized the report... commenting that... Binney and McGovern wrote that… Binney and McGovern proposed that...
Sandstein, literally every sentence begins with attribution. A reasonable person would have easily concluded that the phrase "false testimony" remains a part of Binney and McGovern's voice, and many article editors thought the same.
SPECIFICO did not rectify the problem by simply quoting from the piece directly (as I did here), but removed it wholesale, and made no post on Talk to explain themselves. When they finally did comment, their explanation was so brief as to be incomprehensible. Contrast that with MelbourneStar's clear description of the problem, which allowed us to improve the wording.
Laser brain writes that JFG may be in breach of D/S by subtly but powerfully re-interpreting the D/S proscription: "it may be you who violated the provision not to restore challenged text without consensus."
In fact the D/S text is, "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)."
The Binney and McGovern material was there for some time, and SPECIFICO's removal ("edit") was challenged.
Guy: if SPECIFICO is in breach of D/S, I think the violation is trivial: realistically, it is very difficult to be certain of who is violating what when everybody is reverting.
The more important issue is civility. The WP:ARBAP2 "Final Decision" states,
"Disagreements concerning article content are to be resolved by seeking to build consensus through the use of polite discussion… Wikipedia editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook…etc”’’
Now, consider this Talk comment made by SPECIFICO only yesterday, while they were simultaneously bringing an A/E request against Guccisamsclub:
"Quite right 2x, and since disruptive editors may be highly motivated and extraordinarily observant, a fog of POV edits, policy violations, and counterattack strategies at Arbcom Enforcement are successful strategies in many cases. Many cases, but not all."
[22]
- What is SPECIFICO saying here, except that all the editors who volunteer their time here but disagree with SPECIFICO are trolls? When I attempted to interpret their comments charitably, they rejected that interpretation, e.g. they really were referring to everyone else on the page.
At one point on Talk SPECIFICO incorrectly accused me and other editors of breaching D/S:
" "I shall..." shows admirable resolve -- but it is not apt to make any denials go more smoothly if there's an AE discussion about reinstating disputed text."
[23]
SPECIFICO repeated the same allegation on my talk page (as they have done several times to me and other editors, without ever, to me, providing diffs). When I responded on Talk, they extraordinarily chose to hat my comments in response to their allegations, writing absurdly, "words unrelated to article improvement."
That is incredibly offensive.
These kinds of behaviors are exactly what D/S are supposed to prevent. I think it would be foolish to sanction SPECIFICO for a revert when everyone is reverting, but the personal attacks and offensive behavior poison the tone of discussion and merit a strong warning. -Darouet (talk) 15:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: fair enough, but consider your reaction if I hatted the comment you made just now and replaced it with the text, "words unrelated to article improvement," especially if you were responding to an allegation against you. Further, while the phrases "disruptive editors... highly motivated and extraordinarily observant, a fog of POV edits, policy violations, and counterattack strategies" may be confusing, I fail to see why they are "edgy," instead of "personal attacks" and "assumptions of bad faith." -Darouet (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Your interpretation of the text of DS is contrary to what it actually states, as MelanieN, an Admin, clearly explained only a week ago on the Talk page, and relies upon conflating "edit" with "text." You're putting us in a situation where sometimes removing text from an article is protected by DS, and sometimes reverting the removal of text is protected by D/S, and other times both actions are violations. Which is it? Anybody trained in mathematics will observe this is an impossible situation. -Darouet (talk) 16:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Casprings
The reporter, JFG, has a history of violating 1rr to support his POV. One quick example is here. [24], [25] Casprings (talk) 15:23, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @JFG: I think the problem is that you are putting something that was stated in an OP that accuses a living person of a felony. Moreover, it is something they have denied. It would be one thing if it was needed for the article and directly linked to the subject, but this is un-needed. One could simply stop the sentence and leave that part out. That said, this is something that could be discussed on the talk page or in further dispute resolution. To me, it just seems like you run rough shot over the concerns of other editors and turn around and cry foul. Casprings (talk) 20:41, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Result concerning SPECIFICO
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @JFG: I need to do some more research tomorrow but on the surface, it looks like SPECIFICO did not breech 1RR in a 24 hour period. In fact, your evidence indicates that it may be you who violated the provision not to restore challenged text without consensus. You may want to purchase some protective headgear as a boomerang may be inbound. --Laser brain (talk) 04:45, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Waiting for a concise statement by SPECIFICO. Everybody else, please keep in mind that AE does not resolve content disputes and that we are not a discussion forum about the finer points of either US politics or BLP policy. Statements by editors who are not parties to the request should be limited to facts that help admins decide whether to act on this request - such as links to previous relevant sanctions or enforcement actions, or submissions of relevant evidence, in the form of dated diffs, of conduct by parties in connection to the request's topic. Sandstein 12:00, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- My initial assessment: The content removals by SPECIFICO in diffs 1 and 3 were justified by WP:BLP. Although the statement at issue ("James Clapper's false testimony") was attributed to a source, it was phrased in such a way that a reader could understand it as Wikipedia (rather than the source) asserting that Clapper falsely testified. It could be argued that rather than reverting the whole addition, SPECIFICO could have rephrased it in such a way as to avoid this ambiguity. However, the source is a newspaper op-ed, which is clearly an inappropriate source for BLP material because by its nature an op-ed does not pretend to assert facts, but to voice an individual opinion. (If it is uncontested that Clapper falsely testified, then there should be much better sources for that.). As to the remaining edits by SPECIFICO, their merits are a content issue and therefore outside the scope of this board, but I don't immediately see a policy or DS violation in them. I would therefore take no action here. I remain open of being convinced otherwise by collagues, though. I'm also looking forward to Laser brain's research regarding JFG's edits. Sandstein 12:35, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Concerning Darouet's statement, I'm not removing it as I did the others because it has diffs and is mostly on topic. However, I find it unconvincing. I'm reputed to be the hardest of hard-liners in civility enforcement, but I can't find a clearly actionable incivility in the reported diffs. Making confusing and "edgy" statements is normally not enough for sanctions in individual cases. It may become actionable if it is a longterm pattern of conduct that inhibits or disrupts productive discussion, but that would need more and better evidence in a separate request. Sandstein 15:55, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Based on the evidence provided by Only in death does duty end, it does appear that JFG violated the restriction against reinstating any edits that have been reverted without consensus. I think that a brief topic ban from US-Russia relations might be appropriate. Sandstein 13:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- This probably does not violate the letter of the DS, but it plainly does violate the spirit. The use of WP:CRYBLP is common in such cases, of course. Guy (Help!) 12:07, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Sandstein: I disagree that the edits were justified by BLP - this might not rise to the level of nine separate sources but it's clearly correctly attributed and any purported libel is not our problem, as we're only reporting what was said. WP:UNDUE might be a valid argument, I have no real view on that. However, both editors should have taken it to Talk. It is hard to see either as better than the other here. Guy (Help!) 00:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- ...I am having a hard time discerning whether either side breached enforceable sanctions, nor whether this rises to AE enforceable vs a content dispute gone slightly astray but with editors who have largely correctly retreated to talk page discussion. I think that edge technical violations of policy may be present on all sides but really? Come on, whyfor AE when normal editor discussion
dealtis dealing with it? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:29, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ranze
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Ranze (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Kyohyi (talk) 14:58, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 3 month block, imposed at User talk: Ranze
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Laser brain (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [[26]]
Statement by Ranze
Please copy my appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard or administrators' noticeboard. Laser linked to a decision in gamergate. All I did related to that recently was inquiring on talk:Zoe Quinn asking input if it would make sense to describe her as an activist given her site does that. Other news clarifies this as being an "anti abuse activist" or "anti harassment activist". It seems notable given being called upon to speak by the united nations to recognize that.
Laser did not like the edits I made to people v. Turner and is wrongfully conflating that with gamerGate by deciding to consider it a "gender related dispute", as if sexual assault is limited to a single gender or something.
I was respecting a request to voice concerns on the talk page over a disputed edit. Laser would not even allow this. I simply wanted to clarify what we knew about which specific sources made claims and the context in which they were made. This line of inquiry is called POV/agenda pushing by Laser. I do not believe those warnings or this punishment was justified. Laser is assuming bad faith simply for things like balancing an introduction by mentioning both parties were intoxicated and removing duplicated discussion about unconciousness since the witnees testimony about that followed right after. Ranze (talk) 03:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Laser brain
Note: Ranze does not consider People v. Turner to be covered by the "gender-based controveries" topic area, from which he was topic banned for a year. During his last visit to AE, The Wordsmith and I both advised him that People v. Turner is indeed in this domain and the only reason he wasn't sanctioned is because his TB had elapsed. The content of his edits at the time wasn't really examined. This piece of background is critical if it's to be determined whether the current sanction is valid.
Ranze bumped around for a while doing other things but then decided to return to editing at People v. Turner. I advised him that his edits show an agenda and that he should stay away from that topic. The following edits are of concern:
- [27] - Removes mention that the victim was unconscious and intoxicated and adds text in another area stating both parties were intoxicated (only).
- [28] - Edit wars to keep it in after it's challenged and he's asked to discuss on Talk.
- [29] - Changes wording from "sexually penetrated ... with his fingers" to "digitally penetrated" which was wikilinked to fingering (sexual act), an article about a consensual sexual technique.
- [30] - Rewords a statement about Turner's sentence to say people called it light instead of it being light (he made a similar edit to Ethan Couch).
My impression is that Ranze's agenda is to soften Turner's image and marginalize the victim. He may believe he's editing neutrally but I think he's pushing a POV against the consensus established at this article. --Laser brain (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: There's a bit of confusion going around about the TB so just for clarity: Ranze is not currently under an active TB in this area; it expired in 2016. However, it is my contention that People v. Turner is under DS as a "gender-based controversy". As others have pointed out, there is a strong argument for rape culture and campus rape falling under this topic area. So my administrative action is an application of DS for poor behavior, not a block due to a violation of a topic ban. I warned him to stay away from this topic after the above series of edits, and he returned anyway to continue pushing his POV. --Laser brain (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- @The Wordsmith: I apologize for mischaracterizing your position—it was not intentional and I apparently didn't read your later comments carefully. I will note, however, that People v. Turner (and Zoë Quinn, where Ranze has also reinvolved himself) are eligible for DS under ARBBLP as well, so the question of whether it is a "gender-based controversy" isn't really as important as the question of whether Ranze is behaving poorly. I don't mean to play DS bingo here, but I think we owe it to the community for the focus to be on the behavior. If no one agrees he is pushing an agenda, then let's unblock and move on. --Laser brain (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Kyohyi
First, I think it is important to point out that three out of four of Laser brain's diff's are basically a content dispute. His comments here, his block rationale on Ranze's talk page [31], and his "warning's" [32],[33] demonstrate that his motivation for blocking Ranze was due to him disagreeing on content with Ranze's contributions. This is pretty clearly WP: INVOLVED behavior for an admin. Further, Ranze is not subject to any gender based topic ban at this time, the last topic ban expired April of 2016. [34] --Kyohyi (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Actually I would also like to add that all of the diff's provided by Laser brain date back to 2/4, and 2/5. Laser brain didn't block Ranze until 2/12. Ranze and Laser brain had discussion on Ranze's talk page until 2/7 when Ranze stopped editing until resuming on 2/12. What happened on 2/12 that warrants the block? The diff's provided from 2/4, and 2/5 shouldn't be applicable without something also from 2/12. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Since the scope of topic bans has come up again, (this was brought up the last time Ranze was brought to AE, though it didn't get resolved there) I'm going to link to our topic banning policy WP: TBAN and ask, is the article on the whole gender related, or are there just elements of the article that are gender related. Just because something is partially discussed in terms of gender doesn't mean the whole thing is gender related. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (uninvolved editor MjolnirPants)
This is just a quick interjection from someone uninvolved who has (probably stupidly) watchlisted this page. I looked through the edits in question and I agree that they demonstrate an agenda to minimize Turner's culpability, because the editor has made no edits to this page which had any other effect. The claim that these edits better reflected the sources does not account for the fact that we normally state uncontested claims from reliable sources in wikivoice to avoid stating facts as opinions. I'll recuse myself from sticking my nose further into this by unwatching the page, so please ping me if you have any questions or comments about my statement. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:24, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by CIreland
@Sandstein: You asked for it to be "made more clear how this is within the topic ban's scope" given that "The identity of the perpetrator and victim as male or female, respectively, does not seem to have been an issue in the case, nor their views on gender, or the case's impact on women or men in particular, or anything like that." I think your premise here is mistaken. Much of the coverage of People v. Turner in the press and elsewhere focused on the incident as a consequence of rape culture and our article mentions this fact. Additionally, there has been significant analysis following Turner's release of how the case reflects a normalization of violence against women and have specifically cast both the incident and the case as a gender issue. Here are some examples [35][36][37][38].
I think the above is sufficient to demonstrate that Ranze's edits are within scope but there is a further point I wanted to mention:
Sandstein, you seem to imply in your remarks that rape and sexual assault are not a gender issues. That is a reasonable and widely held opinion. However, there are also widely held opinions to the contrary. I think that you should weigh more cautiously this divergence of opinion on the matter and be careful not to base your decision only on your own perspective. CIreland (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by PeterTheFourth
@Sandstein: In the event that you did remove Ranze's block, would you be doing so procedurally, because you believe Ranze's edits don't fall under the topic area of 'gender-related dispute or controversy', or would you be doing so because you truly believe that their actions were helpful to the goal of building an encyclopedia? PeterTheFourth (talk) 19:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ranze
The diffs provided by LB show no violation. Some of the edits were removing Wiki voice, such as the one where the sentence was referred to as light, is that Wiki's opinion or some people? And I do fail to see how that article should be subject to sanctions. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Ranze
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Laser brain: Could you please indicate which specific edits you blocked Ranze for, and why? Sandstein 15:03, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Ranze contends that People v. Turner is not related to a "gender-related dispute or controversy" and therefore not within the scope of
Ranze's topic banthe discretionary sanctions topic area, and I tend to agree. The article is about a highly publicized case of sexual assault committed by a man against a woman. However, I don't see what in the article or the edits at issue is particularly related to the issue of gender ("the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity"). The identity of the perpetrator and victim as male or female, respectively, does not seem to have been an issue in the case, nor their views on gender, or the case's impact on women or men in particular, or anything like that. Even the offense of sexual assault, while presumably most often committed by men against women, can be committed by and against people of either gender. Unless it is made more clear how this is within the topic ban's scope, I would accept the appeal and undo the block. Sandstein 18:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Amended comment to make clear that this block was apparently not a reaction to violations of a seemingly expired topic ban, but to the non-neutral edits by Ranze. I acknowledge CIreland's point that the article mentions that the case triggered discussions about rape culture, which certainly is a gender-related issue. I'm just not sure that the connection is strong enough to make the article as a whole covered by discretionary sanctions. What do other admins think? – If we were to conclude that this is within scope, I would probably consider the block within admin discretion, even if I myself might not have made it: contributors should edit neutrally, per WP:NPOV, and making edits only to advance one particular point of view violates this rule, even though it is sadly common. Sandstein 19:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Ranze contends that People v. Turner is not related to a "gender-related dispute or controversy" and therefore not within the scope of
- Since my comments at a previous AE have been brought up, I need to clarify that Laser brain misrepresents what I said. While initially I agreed that this article was within the scope, after discussing with other admins and editors I revised my position. See my last comment during that AE thread, which reads in part "Furthermore, after thinking more about the issue, while the "gender-based controversies" is absurdly vague, I do not believe it applies here. This is an article about an court case prosecuting a rapist. Courts are not gendered, and rape is not a gendered crime. The fact that this one happened to involve a male and a female does not make it gender-based. Many in the public believe the judge is sexist (which has been picked up by some RS), but that is a very small part of the article and not, in my interpretation, sufficient to make the entire article a gender-related controversy.
- My position since then has not changed. I continue to believe that this article is not within the scope of WP:ARBGG, except for the snippets dealing with allegations of gender bias. The WordsmithTalk to me 20:17, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Sandstein, I've had to reach for the smelling salts at the idea of People v. Turner not being a gender-based controversy, and that the "identity of the perpetrator and victim as male or female ... does not seem to have been an issue". The case was suffused with male and class privilege, like a flashback to the 70s—the light sentence; the judge's focus on harm to the convicted and not to the victim; that the victim was questioned about what she had been wearing; the father's attitude; the apparent importance to the court that the convicted man was a swimmer. It's the very essence of a gender-based controversy.Looking at just one of Ranze's edits, on 4 February he removed that the victim was unconscious. That she was unconscious, and therefore could not have consented, was the key factor in the case, so that was a highly provocative edit. SarahSV (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that P v Turner falls under gender-based controversy; rapes are nearly uniquely badly one such incident. I could live with a decision that commutes the block to a permanent topic ban and unblocks, but the edits seem inappropriate, the AE authority here clear enough, and the "that's enough" message reasonable under the circumstances. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2017 (UTC)