Volunteer Marek (talk | contribs) |
→Statement by TParis: *{{reply to|Volunteer Marek}} None of your diffs pertain to the editor's behavior in the topic of American Politics. No recent evidence of poor behavior has been presented. This has all been smoke and mirrors and the four of yo |
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*{{reply to|Casprings}} There are a large number of conservative editors that are unwilling to get protracted in disputes or to really defend their points of view because of the attitude on this project towards Conservative editors. I know because I'm one of them.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 03:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC) |
*{{reply to|Casprings}} There are a large number of conservative editors that are unwilling to get protracted in disputes or to really defend their points of view because of the attitude on this project towards Conservative editors. I know because I'm one of them.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 03:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC) |
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*{{reply to|Volunteer Marek}} None of your diffs pertain to the editor's behavior in the topic of American Politics. No recent evidence of poor behavior has been presented. This has all been smoke and mirrors and the four of you should be sanctions for trying to game AE to perpetuate a dispute. If you have a problem with TTAAC's user page, which your rightly do, then bring it up in the appropriate forums. But, ARBAP is not the venue for your complaint. Please present evidence ''relevant'' to American political articles.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 05:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Volunteer Marek==== |
====Statement by Volunteer Marek==== |
Revision as of 05:37, 10 January 2017
Volunteer Marek
Closed with no action. User:EtienneDolet has undertaken to voluntarily abstain from participation at WP:AE for six months, except for responding to any filings where he's a named party. Bishonen | talk 21:39, 2 January 2017 (UTC). | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Request concerning Volunteer Marek
VM is pushing a strong anti-Russian/anti-Syrian government POV articles related to the Syrian Civil War, especially at Battle of Aleppo (2012-2016), and other articles as well for some time. His behavior has become particularly disruptive since the capture of Aleppo by the Syrian government in recent days.
Has been steadily reverting once every 24 hours at the 1RR Battle of Aleppo (2012-2016) article for the last week or so (aside from a pause around Christmas). Note that there's a clear consensus at the TP to NOT include the alleged massacres in the lede. The consensus was pretty clear by 19 December (though that didn't stop him). It is now at 14-2; the 2 being himself and My very best wishes.
There are other troubling incidents: when VM got reverted and did not get his way with his version of the lead, he went a couple hours later to the similar Aleppo offensive (November–December 2016) article (which is so identical that it probably needs to get merged) and inserted the same material about the alleged civilian massacres to the lead of that article, then doubles down to maintain his insertion.
Meanwhile, when VM did not get the consensus he wanted at the TP, he employed the "same-wine-different-bottle-to-get-around-1RR" tactic. The material is similar to material that VM previously edit-warred over, but since he used up his 1R for the day, he inserts something slightly different, so that the gist is the same but without it being a revert. Examples include:
But when that gets reverted altogether, VM does the following:
Frankly, I've interacted with Volunteer Marek for quite some time now, and I must say that this is the most disruptive I've seen him thus far. The diffs (with the exception of a couple) are all from the past 10 days. I must say, however, that the underlying POV push here is anti-Russian, and whoever is on good terms with Russia (i.e. Assad, Trump, Assange) pays a hefty price.
@Drmies: let me clarify for Fitzcarmalan, if I may. The issue isn’t whether the sources are reliable or not. No one in the talk page is arguing that. The argument on the talk page was that the initial claims made for these massacres were made from unverified and unknown sources, therefore it’s undue. With that said, the consensus was to remove any mention of these allegations from the lead. But VM kept reinserting them into the lead in several different ways and forms. First, it was with the UN High Commissioner’s statement. Gets reverted. Then it was with Merkel’s and Kerry’s statements. Gets reverted. The he adds both the UN High Commissioner's and Merkel's and Kerry's statement. Gets reverted. And finally, it was with Samantha Power’s statement. Then that too gets reverted. And if that wasn't enough, in the meantime Marek went along and added the same contentious material to the similar Aleppo offensive (November–December 2016) article not once, but twice. All of this occurred in a little more than 24 hours. And to reiterate, all of these statements from this or that politician were over the same allegations of massacre which consensus considered (by December 19) not worthy enough to be in the lead. This is serious gaming of the 1RR. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:25, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Volunteer MarekStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer Marek(Note: yes, I know this is long. That's cuz there's a buttload of accusations in this battleground report. So please don't tell me to "keep it under 500 words". You know that can't be done)
Specifically, the edits on the 13th and the 14th, restored a long standing version of the article which was altered by several brand new accounts. In particular, This is NOT a revert of this. The edit on the 15th is a revert but it's part of BRD - especially since the info was removed per WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The subsequent edits, in the cases where they are reverts concern different aspects of the article. For example this edit and this edit are about unrelated content. So you can't claim "consensus on talk page" when you're talking about completely different issues. At best, consensus was only for ONE issue, which is not to have the number of killed civilians in the lede. And even that's debatable as several other users supported inclusion of the text. I have no idea what "same-wine-different-bottle-to-get-around-1RR" is suppose to mean. It sounds like EtienneDolet is just offended that I've been able to edit the article at all. This is his usual (and he has done this several times in the past) "oh noes! Volunteer Marek won't let me push my POV in peace! Please ban him!". This is exactly what EtienneDolet does - he and his buddies go in, revert blindly and then when their edits are challenged they run off to drama boards to try and get those who disagree with them banned. EtienneDolet has in fact been warned and threatened with sanctions for exactly this kind of behavior previously. See previous AE reports (I'll dig it out later). Ok, now the "Dishonesty" charge. That's pretty damn serious. So he better have something here or I'm gonna be pissed. And I want a freakin' BOOMERANG.
First note I'm reverting to a version by admin User:Drmies. This is restoring the words "pro-Assad", "catastrophic" and "thousands", all of which, are indeed sourced. I am removing the word "alleged" because "alleged" is not in the source and the user inserted it because he claimed the text wasn't supported by sources (false). There does appear to be a sentence there sourced to Daily Beast (not a reliable source) which got caught up in the restoration of Drmies' version. But this is not fucking dishonesty ... it's just something getting caught up in restoring a version.
Bullshit. This is restoring a previous version. The rationale for removing this "sourced material" was ALREADY PROVIDED here.
Bullshit. There's the freakin' edit summary right there which explains it, which says "restore well sourced material. Apparently a few buses being burned is more important for the lede than a massacre of civilians". And at this point. Let's pause and think about what is going on here. EtienneDolet and a couple of his buddies are busy trying to remove any mention of murdered civilians from the lede of the article. Because, they say, it's "UNDUE". At the same time, he is trying to add information about some buses being freakin' burnt to the lede. That's right. EtienneDolet thinks that a massacre of civilians is "UNDUE" but buses being burned is crucial info for the lede. That kind of mentality speaks for itself. And yes, I did start a talk page discussion about it [2]
The person being dishonest here is ED. ANOTHER USER (see comment right above mine in the diff) used the word "bizarrely". I agreed with them. Because the situation on the talk page was indeed bizarre. I'm not mischaracterizing anything. The same editors who were voting to "merge" this material from the article Aleppo Massacre to Battle of Aleppo where busy trying to REMOVE it from the Battle of Aleppo one. How does that work? How can you "merge" something when you are actually removing it? The answer is, it doesn't. It's just a trick (it's actually a very old old trick on Wikipedia). You say "merge" and then remove it from the target and that way you get to delete it without actually doing AfD. Because you know that if you took the actual article to AfD, the vote would be keep. Man, I'm tired of this crap already. It's obvious EtienneDolet has been working on this for the past few days, probably with some help - especially given Athenean's comments in the RfC where he keeps threatening that he'll go to AE.
Can someone please explain to me what the hell is suppose to be wrong with that comment??? What exactly is the problem? How is this dishonest? Where does EtienneDolet get off accusing me of lying? I am making a relevant goddamn analogy. EtiennDolet is basically just taking every single one of my edits to this article and my comments on the talk page and pretending really really hard that there's something "bad" about them. There's not. He's full of it. He's the one that's lying and being dishonest. His description of every single one of those diffs is a big stinking lie. More quickly - nothing wrong with this comment, if you're doing original research, then yeah you have a misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. Nothing wrong with this comment, it address content, specifically sources. Oh, this one's funny - [3]. EtienneDolet quotes me as saying: ""If you're not gonna be willing to follow reliable sources then you're WP:NOTHERE for the purposes of building an encyclopedia. Are you? *cricket noises*"" First, if you refuse to follow reliable sources, then yeah, Wikipedia isn't for you. I guess it's the "cricket noises" that are the issue, huh? That's like, uncivil or something, to say "cricket noises" to someone? Right? Oh but wait, wait, what is this comment responding to? Just look right above it to EtienneDolet's comment: " The underlining question here is most important: were/are there independent observers in Eastern Aleppo? *cricket noises*". And see the part which he left out: "Um, the way it usually works is that after you ask a question you give a chance to respond, THEN you start in with the "cricket noises". Not "howabouthequestioCRICKETNOISES!". And anyway, that's not the question. The question is what reliable sources say" (that's me, in case you're losing track) This edit. EtienneDolet quotes me as saying "go edit some other place on internet." What he leaves out is the first part of that sentence "If you don't care to follow Wikipedia policy on reliable sources". Which is about right. IF you're not gonna follow one of our five pillars then other internet forums are a better match for you. This one I believe was already brought up by ED's tag-team buddy Athenean on User:Drmies talk page right here. Please read Drmies response. This one. EtienneDolet says: "The user never said the "bus burnings" belonged in the lead or that SOHR is reliable." Yeah and I never said that "the user" (that would be Athenean) said that. This was a general comment on the discussion in the section. So it's really ED who is "grossly mischarecterizing" my comments. The closure of the RfC. Yes, a non-admin tried to close the RfC after just a couple of days. I reverted it because it's the holiday season and we should give more time for editors who are busy with holiday stuff. That user then actually said they were fine with the closure being undone. What's more, another, actually uninvolved User:Lemongirl942, also asked the user to hold off on closing RfCs. Then yet another User:Iryna Harpy undid another attempt at closure by another involved user, 92slim (recently blocked for incivility for this comment, also a buddy of ED) So all you got here is just EtienneDolet presenting a bunch of diffs and then appending his own FALSE little description of what they SUPPOSEDLY contain. He's hoping that admins, understandably since it's time consuming, check the actual context and verify all of his claim. This is just the standard WP:BATTLEGROUND tactic of diff-padding. Ok I'm gonna make a break here. Because then we come to the real reason why EtienneDolet is filing this AE report, This diff from Dec 23. First, just to get something straight, as soon as ED asked me to remove his name from the sub-sub-section heading, I was happy to do so [4] (he actually didn't bring it up for awhile) Now, is this a "personal attack" meant to "humiliate" EtienneDolet? No. It's not. But it does make him look really bad, which is why he's pissed enough to file this baseless WP:AE report. But the reason it makes him look bad, is because he behaved badly. Here is the diff again [5]. Read it. Then read the discussion it is referring to here. The situation outlined in those two diffs vividly illustrates just what a WP:TENDENTIOUS editor EtienneDolet is, and how completely unconcerned with Wikipedia policies of WP:NPOV and WP:RS he is in pursuit of his BATTLEGROUND. And it does this with his own words. It's not a personal attack because it really just quotes him. To recap. Back in April, on the page Russian military intervention in Syria, EtienneDolet insisted that SOHR (Syrian Observatory for Human Rights) was NOT a reliable source. He was adamant about it. He was inflexible about it. Uncompromising. He called it a "total joke". A "tool of Western propaganda", And worse. He wasted a shit load of my time arguing that it wasn't reliable. Even that discussion by itself was really problematic. First, he misrepresented what users at WP:RSN said (this RfC was actually an instance of FORUM shopping but nevermind), until one of them showed up and corrected him. Then he claimed that there were "academic sources" that proved SOHR wasn't reliable (April 1 10:16). When I asked him to provide these "academic sources" he evaded and kept repeating the claim without actually presenting them. Finally, when pressed he linked to... a conspiracy website, and a far-right online fake-"magazine" that publishes anti-Semitic drivel. When the nature of these links was pointed out to him, he kept on freakin' insisting that these were, honest to god, "academic sources". Those are the quotes from him I provided in the diff he brings up (here it is again [6]) Yeah, he looks bad in those, but that's all on him. So why is this relevant to the Battle of Aleppo article? I mean aside from the fact that "Russian military intervention in Syria" and "Battle of Aleppo" are related. Well.... because now EtienneDolet decided he wanted to USE the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights as a source himself. Nothing changed in the meantime. It's still the same outfit. There's been no new info about it. In fact, ED didn't even say he changed his mind. The only difference was that in April, SOHR was being used to source something which was "anti-Assad", but in December he wanted to use it to source something which was "pro-Assad". So all of sudden, this source that he spend pages and pages arguing was unreliable, "a total joke", a "tool of Western propaganda", all of sudden, now, it was perfectly fine to use. Because HEJUSTLIKEDIT. Seriously. Read this discussion first. Look at this edit. Keep in mind that he restored this source several times. Then read my comment (here it is again) and tell me that there isn't something seriously wrong with EtienneDolet's approach to editing Wikipedia. I've been here since 2005. I've seen TONS of TENDENTIOUS editors. But this is pretty much top of the list. Definitely top three. To be so totally brazen in one's disregard for Wikipedia policies and goals in pursuit of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, as EtienneDolet is, even I'm surprised, and I've seen a lot of shenanigans here over the years. And I haven't even brought up the strange phenomenon in the Aleppo RfC, where six editors, none of whom have ever edited the article before, but all of whom are EtienneDolet's buddies from the whole Armenia vs. Turkey and Armenia vs. Azerbaijan topic area/battleground, somehow all showed up to vote in his (well, Athenean's, little difference) RfC in quick succession, all in the same way, with exactly the same "rationale". This is a load of crap and I'm tired. I guess now is when all the grudge holders, haters and opportunistic battleground warriors show up and turn this into a circus... Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:11, 28 December 2016 (UTC) Oh yeah, please give me some time to dig out old WP:AE reports, including the failed ones that ED already tried to file against me, and some WP:ANI reports (also failed) in which he was warned about using WP:AE and WP:ANI to pursue WP:BATTLEGROUND fights. They're there if you look and I'll get them soon enough.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC) @Tiptoe, you're confusing me with someone else.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC) @TTAAC, that info had been in the article for several days and nobody objected. So actually, it was your removal of it which was a violation of discretionary sanctions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Re ED's [7] - you know what's "not good-natured conduct"? Showing up to AE with a bullshit report, accusing someone of "dishonesty" then lying your ass off about what the diffs you include as "evidence" contain. THAT IS what is not "conducive to civil conduct". Oh, and messing with the comments made by your intended victim. Which appears to be just an attempt to provoke and humiliate them ("I can edit your comments cuz you're such a bad person!"). The fact that ED immediately edited this page again to include my reverting of his changes to my comment is just more illustration that this is nothing but WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior on their part, combined with a bunch of WP:POINTY attempts to provoke someone so that he can have "diffs" to add to his report. Like I said, I have not seen many users on Wikipedia that were this cynical and backhanded in their editing and pursuit of grudges.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:26, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Hey User:Bishonen, think about it this way - at least you're an outside observer and you only have to or choose to observe this. You're not actually being attacked and slandered and have your character and good intentions constantly called into question and have every single person you've ever pissed off on Wikipedia cuz you didn't let them add some nonsense to some article you can't even remember show up and pontificate about all the horrible things you are and have done and muse out loud about what kind of nasty things should be done to you. So as much I sympathize - and I do, really really do - you're being cast in the easier role in this theatrical production.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Tiptoe, you are *still* confusing me with another user.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
One user says: "The event isn't notable enough to have its own article, yet alone being called a "massacre", thats just the viewpoint of highly pro-salafi jihadist news outlets such as reuters, al-Jazeera,telegraph or CNN, therefore I believe the very existence of such a separate article calling it a "massacre" is a breach fo wikipedia's NPOV"
Another user says: "Mainstream Media cried foul during the military activities without having any credible source on the ground" and goes on to say that CNN and NYT are just as biased as RT or Sputnik.
Another user complains that "the sources are doing original research" - well, duh, that's what secondary sources do. The user appears to be confused about who gets to do original research (sources) and who does not (us). And then there's the claim by EtienneDolet in that RfC, a rather absurd claim, that the text in the article is "not verifiable". My response was simply to point out that there's thirteen (!) reliable sources which back up the text. What ED simply means though is "I don't believe the sources". But that's his problem. Most of my other comments in that RfC was to the note that the criteria for merging an article are NOT "neutrality" (most of these !votes were just straight up WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT votes) but "notability". I.e. Whether we merge or not depends on whether the event was notable, not whether it is being portrayed neutrally. And seriously I could've criticized these !votes much more. Like the user who complains that the reports of the massacre are based on "biased sources" (i.e. Reuters, CNN, NYT and other "highly pr-salafi jihadist news outlets") and then quotes approvingly the ... Daily Freakin' Mail. The actual question with that RfC is the arrival of a large number of sketchy SPA accounts, as well as a cohesive group of editors who haven't edited Syria related articles at all, but who have all edited, and tag-teamed together in the past on.... Armenia vs. Turkey, and Armenia vs. Azerbaijan related articles. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is EtienneDolet's usual stomping ground. How did this group of editors arrive on this and the Battle of Aleppo RfC, in such quick succession, all voting same way and all offering the same rationale? Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@News and Events Guy - I haven't harassed anyone. Get a grip.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:31, 30 December 2016 (UTC) @ED in regard to this comment - I'm sorry, but who went and made you "the average user", whose concerns are so woefully being neglected by the admins? In fact, the disparity between the comments in AE reports and the admins conclusions (which has ALWAYS existed, from the day this board was started) is simply due to the fact that the people who CHOOSE to comment here are a non-random, self-selected group - those with the biggest axes to grind. They are anything but "average". I'd be more worried if the admins DID pay more attention to the peanut galleries that always pop up at these things.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC) Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldIs there any point in this? VM has always been a full-time pov editor, ceaseless and tireless if not always effective. Everyone knows this, countless cases over the years have revealed it, but nothing is done. Only the now greatly increased subject range of articles affected may change that. What started as eastern European post-Cold-War related articles has expanded into any subject that VM believes contains some hidden Russian manipulations or hidden pro-Russia end goal, so it is now just about anything to do with the middle east and anything to do with domestic or foreign policy American politics. VM surely genuinely believes he is trying to save saving the world from a tidal wave of Russian malevolence. However, when VM arrives at an article, everyone just groans, knowing they are going to be faced with his ceaseless persistence that his position must be followed and everyone else is wrong regardless of arguments presented or consensus. The Battle of Aleppo RfC [9] is typical - he just goes on and on and on, his tenacity is awesome. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
I think this is clearly a WP:BATTLE request by ED because
Statement by LipsquidHere we are again, every AE or ANI about VM has a magically appearing MVBW in support of VM. Amazing coincidence how often these two cross paths. Lipsquid (talk) 21:07, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Iryna HarpyFirstly, let me qualify why I am here: I've actually been pinged in by VM both here and in the above case involving INeverCry, and am not one of the 'I hate VM, and Mvbw is a sock/meat/cabal-member/jocks and a pair of pantyhose' groupies who have to get their 2¢ worth in every time a thread is opened involving VM anywhere on wp. Currently, the latest infection being spread is the significance of EEML. It's become so ludicrous that Tiptoethrutheminefield has apparently already written his own op-ed/WP:OR history of Wikipedia in which grubbing through the mud is justified because he, himself, is not one of the harshest and hard headed editors around (erhem!... and please read through the entire thread on Thucydides411's talk page as it's good for a depressing laff). As an aside, I've worked with Tiptoethrutheminefield collaboratively despite what other editors may think of him, or his editing history. If I were to keep dredging up past indiscretions and editing by the GRUDGE credo, there'd barely be an editor I would trust isn't communicating with other active and blocked editors off-wiki. Why should I? AGF? Pshaw! As you've intimated, Bishonen, the underlying problem is how tedious this board has become. Editors are so consumed by everything other than the calibre of the content, and flexing their Alpha male muscles that no one with a jot of sense would do anything but lurk around the articles (or put 'em their watchlist as I have). In conclusion, I thoroughly endorse your recommendation.
Statement by TheTimesAreAChangingIt may be worth noting that both @Volunteer Marek: and @BullRangifer: appear to have flagrantly violated the American Politics discretionary sanctions pertaining to the restoration of contentious material just a few days ago at 2016 United States election interference by Russia: [12], [13], [14], [15].TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by BullRangiferI got pinged and see that I apparently did violate the sanction. I can assure you that it was an accident and won't occur again. I just dropped by and saw what appeared to be a ridiculous deletion of properly sourced content (which I usually consider to be a form of vandalism), not realizing it was being contested on the talk page. I hadn't checked the history of that content. My bad. Very sorry for any consternation my restoration caused. I now see it was corrected later. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:53, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy
Even if the filing party was a horrible jerk and/or if VM 100% correct in the content dispute (I have no opinion on either one at this time), nonetheless there is ample evidence of harassing and uncourteous hostility in the diffs listed in the complaint, under the heading "TP disruption (i.e. incivility/trying to get under his opponent’s skin/TP edit-warring)". Yes, I know people speak heatedly all the time but our past failures to demand courtesy and mutual respect do not excuse more of the same. It may be that the filing party also behaved badly, and that's a separate question. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MarteauWe have with Marek a demonstrable pattern of tendentious editing and battleground mentality. It was with interest that I noticed him being hauled into Wikicourt yet again and, I could only hope, finally have him be issued yet another sanction to add to his already formidable block log, hopefully this time something with some teeth in it to hopefully, for once, affect a change in his attitude and his toxic behavior. Unfortunately, this does have all the makings of the "circus" Marek predicted, with Bishonen appearing not with his mop but only to take the opportunity to piss and moan about the process itself. I share Lipsquid's exasperation at this behavior, and am unsure why Bishonen chooses to invest his time in a forum he has such evident contempt for. Perhaps an administrator will accept this case and give it the attention it deserves rather than use it as an opportunity to display his overarching wisdom, wit, and taste in apropos sidebar graphics. Marteau (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by GovindaharihariThe administrative comments and the lack of any control over this issue is like banning the user. It will only encourage them to continue, his conduct at multiple arbitration controlled articles is beyond belief, his has multiple reverts at multiple arbitration articles - only a 3rr report and this report have stalled him, if not curtailed he will continue and the outcome will be more severe. Ok, why is this being failed to resolve, is it that, anti Russia is a pro USA position and the admins here are mostly from the USA, but we are looking for neutrality preserved. The user is all over the place, angrily revert warring at multiple arbitration controlled articles. I don't see any reason for this enforcement page if it fails to take action in this case. This User Marek is without doubt the primary disruptive antagonist at multiple arbcom controlled and many closely related articles and biographies, WP:BLP a wiki priority that is clearly not being protected - Assange had around 20 same same reverts over a few days without any admin concern or raising of protection. He has allies as have the opposition, although all sides are editing poorly in regards to wp:policy and guidelines, the lack of administration is the real shame here. Govindaharihari (talk) 20:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by FitzcarmalanIf some of the admins are (clearly) too tired to look into this, then I suggest they officially recuse themselves and spare us the "it's Christmas so let's get along" kind of nonsense before it starts, especially when one of them shows clear resentment toward this board. And Mvbw should, by all means, take those diffs "into context" himself (no one's stopping you), instead of making baseless accusations and wasting people's time. But now is when I address the ones who are willing to take this seriously: This source supposedly backed his edit. And, as you can see, it was clearly misrepresented because nothing in it even suggests that RBSS is accusing Russia of being behind the incident(s). I undid his revision over a week later the moment I noticed it, explaining in my edit summary that not only was this undue, but it also wasn't backed by the source. Hours later he reverts (see here) and adds another "source" (same; doesn't mention RBSS). And after a third round of reverts, I initiated a discussion here (I urge everyone to take a close look) explaining to him how the sources were clearly misrepresented. Then came my latest content-related interaction with him on Talk:Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), just a few days ago. I left off at the point where he wrote this. And he shouldn't be surprised when accused of dishonesty, given this edit on the Aleppo article. It appears that his excuse, in case you missed it in his quite lengthy response on this very same thread, is the following:
Upon closer examination, however, you'll notice that it was hardly a justification to remove the material from the article itself. All he said was: I mean... the gaming is quite obvious, really. So VM gets reverted after adding the stuff about massacres. Then repackages it, and inserts it back into the article. Then that gets reverted, he repackages it again and inserts it back into the article. On my count, VM's tactic allowed him to insert the stuff about the massacres at least 3 times within 24 hours in a 1RR article. Never mind the fact that while this was going on, he went along and inserted the contentious material in Aleppo offensive (November–December 2016) not once, but twice. This is the epitome of tendentious editing. But more importantly, this is WP:GAME, or to be more specific: WP:SANCTIONGAME. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by DarouetI wanted to stay far away from this, because VM and I never see eye to eye, but sanctioning ED would be an incredible result. @Black Kite, Peacemaker67, Drmies, and Laser brain: ED provided a great deal of evidence, and similar diffs can be found at literally every topic where VM edits, using the same tactics and ideological outlook. Not one of you has seriously responded to the evidence provided, and the assertion that Russian policy is unrelated to EE grossly mischaracterizes the largest EE dynamic, which is tension between Russia, smaller EE nationalities, and the US. The impression that remains, therefore, is that evidence of disruption has no bearing on results here, and complaints against disruption - when Russia is involved - will get you banned. (Note: I'm not arguing that all content VM added was bad: for instance I've appreciated that VM has sought to include information of white phosphorus munitions use in Syria, even if it's possible some text wording should have been altered.) Given total disinterest in the evidence provided, there is zero reason for an editor to believe Arbitration enforcement can prevent disruption. -Darouet (talk) 16:50, 31 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by KashmiriI crossed paths with VM on a few occasions in the past but it was mostly painless. However, what brought me here today are his edits on Talk:Aleppo massacre. It left bad taste to see how VM cosistently attacked those who !voted in support of the merger, picking up an argument wherever possible. In fact, he was the only one to have challenged those who decided to cast their !votes there, which looked quite intimidating and, who knows, might have prevented others to contribute to the discussion. VM even (wrongly) challenged the very fact that the merger was proposed on that Talk page. (I apologise for not offering diffs at this time but the discussion there is fairly easy to follow - I doubt using diffs would be of much help.) Yes, the topics can be emotionally charged - it was about an alleged mass killing - but letting other editors express their opinion freely, without intimidation, is the least the WP community expects from everyone, that including VM. I am not in support of a ban; a simple warning might hopefully be sufficient. But such editing pattern on the part of VM has to stop at one point. — kashmiri TALK 23:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Statement by Xx236What if VM is a Cassandra? Cassandra was sent to the Elysian Fields after her death, as her soul was judged worthy because of her dedication to the gods and her religious nature during her life. Xx236 (talk) 07:16, 30 December 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Volunteer Marek
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Junosoon
Junosoon's appeal of his six-month ban from the Indian economy is declined. EdJohnston (talk) 19:33, 3 January 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by JunosoonThe biggest concern with which , i appeal for this imposed ban is, what was my behaviour after the final warning, due to which , ban imposing action was taken?. An important part of this appeal is to also bring forth the problems encountered, by me during various discussions, which I feel quite discouraging as a contributor to Wikipedia, This appeal is not aimed to point others mistakes or create a war like situation.With due respect to all participants I raise my concerns below,
Since User:Winged Blades of Godric has expressed the justification of ban, i am citing few dif to look at role, the user as a fully involved, non admin, editor is taking part [29] has been participating , in these discussions here [30] with an appreciation of
Wikipedia is a serious place and kindly mark your accusation of words
Statement by SpacemanSpiff
Statement by uninvolved Beyond My KenJunsoon also opened a thread at AN/I. Given the existence of this appeal and the one at AN, I NAC'd that thread. I then NAC'd the thread at AN when Junosoon indicated that they wished this appeal to take precedence, and I've copied the comments by admins from that thread to here. Any admin who sees these actions as an unwarranted intrusion into the process is welcome to undo them with no complaint from me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:55, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Winged Blades of GodricFrankly, he had been already given enough warnings before the
Statement by Vanamonde93Note: I'm involved here, having been party to disputes with Junosoon: so I am not speaking in an administrator capacity. I would strongly recommend that this appeal be denied. Junosoon's editing in this topic has been highly disruptive, and has indicated a severe lack of competence, despite multiple warnings and explanations. The issues include, but are not limited to, misunderstanding our guidelines about article titles, and continuing a long-winded argument based on this misunderstanding; creating too many spinoff articles from 2016 Indian banknote demonetisation (or otherwise removing content to other articles) without consensus [43], [44], and more that I cannot be bothered to link; subsequently nominating one of these for deletion under CSD#G7, which is either gaming the system to get unwanted content deleted, or just competence issues, again; and the opening of numerous frivolous threads at various noticeboards. This appeal does not demonstrate any awareness that any of these actions were a problem. Vanamonde (talk) 11:57, 2 January 2017 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by JunosoonResult of the appeal by Junosoon
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Marlo Jonesa
Removed "extended confirmed" per consensus in the thread.
Opinions were divided on whether the user was acting in good faith in making their 500 edits. Regardless, the intention of extended confirmed is to ensure some minimum experience with Wikipedia editing and policy; 500 trivial sandbox edits are not in the spirit of the restriction. Marlo Jonesa is welcome to reapply for extended confirmed at WP:PERM/EC, ideally after amassing around 500 substantive edits elsewhere in en-WP. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Marlo Jonesa
The user try to WP:GAME the arbitration restriction So they probably aware of it.
The user has registered in 2013 and was dormant till recently in the last 7 days made about 556 edits all of they edits are either minor or to the sandbox.It seems he made his edits to WP:GAME the extended confirmed requirement to edit the I/P conflict articles.Also its pretty clear that this is user is not new. @Drmies.It seems that his edit in the article space its not too controversial though his statement in talk [48] has some smack of POV on it.But what really puzzles how did they miss suggestion to discuss his edits when he tried to edit the article?What more puzzles me that he did indeed used talk page but only after he made 500 edits to the sandbox .08:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Marlo JonesaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Marlo Jonesa
Statement by Malik ShabazzHaving looked at the editor's contribution history, and not at the content of any of the edits, it's clear she/he is gaming the system. At minimum, I think a topic ban is necessary; an indefinite block would be appropriate in my view. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 15:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Winged Blades of GodricIn my capacity as a completely non involved fly-by editor, I would strongly recommend
Statement by Sir JosephIf I may offer my observation, I don't think a block is in order. While the editor claims he wasn't gaming the system, his statement that he was just trying to get to 500 edits might seem to be at odds, but they're not. The rule was 500 edits, he wanted to edit and as a new user what else is he to do? It's not clear at all. What I suggest is a TBAN on ARBPIA until he reaches an additional 500 non-sandbox edits. We should also clarify on the ARBPIA template what a new user is supposed to do. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸(talk) 20:55, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
NewsAndEventsGuy
Jonney2000I just removed a major Copyright violation from this editor on Palestinians. Someone should check his edits for copyright issues.Jonney2000 (talk) 13:38, 3 January 2017 (UTC) Result concerning Marlo Jonesa
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ontario Teacher BFA BEd
The appeal of the topic ban is unanimously declined. Sandstein 14:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Ontario Teacher BFA BEdOn the Political Positions of Donald Trump WP page, I have been trying to remove the phrase "Roe protects a woman's right to an abortion before a fetus is viable, which anti-abortion activists contend is at the 20-week mark", which includes pro-choice language. I have been trying to remove this phrase without adding any pro-life language to replace it. I have also added a dispute tag in order to involve other users. Lastly, I have notes that the terms "pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights" are also lopsided in favour of abortion and seek to replace them with the more balanced and commonly used terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" respectively. As you can see, I have been doing the exact opposite of pushing POV. I have in fact been removing it. Statement by BishonenFor information, my topic ban notice, with a brief explanation of the reasons for the ban, is here. Bishonen | talk 21:11, 6 January 2017 (UTC). Statement by NeutralityThis appeal should be dismissed. The user in question has engaged in extensive "I can't hear you" style behavior over a series of months (as far back as March 2016) and is unable to constructively engage at the talk page. Bishonen's explanation to the user explains the situation quite well. Neutralitytalk 21:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC) Statement by involved editor MelanieNThis was a very appropriate and much appreciated topic ban. The user has been making disruptive and POV edits to the article page, and tendentious posts on the talk page, since November. They have repeatedly removed from the article (claiming "bias" and "alarmingly pro-abortion language") such phrases as "reproductive rights" (insisting there is no such thing), "anti-abortion group" (replacing it with "pro-life" or "fetal rights movement"), and "abortion rights group" (replacing it with "pro-abortion"). They have repeated these edits despite a strong consensus against them. They should consider themselves fortunate they were merely topic-banned - rather than being blocked for tendentious editing. --MelanieN (talk) 22:44, 6 January 2017 (UTC) Statement by involved editor CaltonI have been doing the exact opposite of pushing POV Replacing the neutral terms used by reliable sources -- and Ontario Teacher WAS pointed to explanations by said reliable sources why they use those terms -- with the preferred shibboleths of one side (as well as attempting to expunge the specific terms they don't like) pretty much *IS* pushing a point of view, and an attempt to manipulate language to frame an issue in a preferred way. Since OT persists in flogging this view, which is the exact opposite of true, I'm thinking that OT's topic ban should be reset from one year to indefinite, contingent upon acquisition of clue. --Calton | Talk 06:27, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ontario Teacher BFA BEdAt the Talk:Political positions of Donald Trump talk page, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (hereafter OTBB) – an editor with over a year's experience – delivered the following diktat: " That in itself should be enough to get all the editor's backs up, but after it has been politely and clearly explained to him by three other editors that his preferred choices of terms ("pro-life/choice") have been rejected by earlier consensus in favour of the terms used most in reliable sources, he then edit-wars to (1) remove the currently accepted terms and impose his preferred terms [51][52][53][54]; (2) rename a section from "Social issues and civil liberties" to "Social issues" (edit summary: as "civil liberties" subheading implied a bias in favour of abortion) [55][56]; (3) force a POV tag onto a section that he disagrees with [57][58]. This was done on an article subject to discretionary sanctions and following the ignored warning on OTBB's talk page, the inevitable topic ban was applied at 10:22 (UTC) today. Amazingly, OTBB's very next edit was to Talk:Political positions of Donald Trump. Frankly, I don't see any value in simply warning OTBB. Someone who is incapable of hearing what others are telling him, and who cannot understand what a topic ban is, has insufficient competence to be editing here. We should be showing OTBB the door, rather than further indulging this sort of behaviour and wasting editors' time with baseless appeals like this. --RexxS (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC) "Did Bishonen act properly" is the question in this appeal, and OTBB merely makes a bald-faced assertion they were removing POV. OTBB provided no DIFFs to show the TBAN was unmerited. Boiled down the appeal says little more than "Please don't". I agree with the other users that the TBAN was well done. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2017 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Ontario Teacher BFA BEd
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TheTimesAreAChanging
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning TheTimesAreAChanging
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Casprings (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
User:TheTimesAreAChanging has a history of attacking user:SPECIFICO with WP:AGF and WP:Pointy at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_United_States_election_interference_by_Russia [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67]
I approached him and asked him to stop dealing with user conduct [68] on an article talk page. He acknowledged my comment and stated that he would take issues with SPECIFICO to WP:AE. [69] However, he continues to attack users on the talk page. [70] [71] [72] [73]
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- [74] User admonished and strongly warned
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Pervious admonishment and warning at WP:AE. [75]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
He also maintains a list about SPECIFICO in his sandbox, here which, in my opinion, is a little unhinged.
- Laser_brain, Sections like this seem, at least to me, to be going after users. This. to me, seems like WP:Battleground. It is also something other users have approached him about. That said, if I am misinterpreting this, my apologies to both the admins and to TheTimesAreAChanging. Casprings (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- First my general apologies for the lack of quality of this report. If I ever come back here again, I will certainly take more time to put together a better report. I lack the time to add much now, but if this remains open I will add more. Second, to TParis, I do not believe it is accurate to state the editor is "outnumbered". A look on the talk page of multiple articles in the subject area of American Politics will domonstrat a large number of conservative editors.Casprings (talk) 02:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning TheTimesAreAChanging
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging
Casprings also maintains a list about TheTimesAreAChanging in his sandbox, here which, in my opinion, is a little unhinged.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:52, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Editors are complaining that the above comment is too snarky and that the two sandboxes are not really comparable. I thought my point was obvious, but I guess I need to spell it out: Like Casprings, I am using my sandbox to compile evidence of misconduct against another user. I could have used Word instead, but I considered that presenting the diffs publicly would enable other editors to comment on and add to the list, if any deigned to do so. Unlike Casprings, I am not going to file any complaint without first compiling substantial documentation. (Not sure how that reflects badly on me.) If it must go, so be it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
With regard to Casprings "evidence," I will only point out that diff number eight is just me responding to SPECIFICO hatting one of my comments with the patronizing message "Talk page is for article improvement" by unhatting it and explaining why it is relevant. I opened my reply to SPECIFICO with "SPECIFICO, we already know 'talk page is for article improvement.'" That's an egregious personal attack? (Nor am I the only one to find SPECIFICO's "constant attempts to police the discourse ... tiresome.")TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I've never violated 1RR on any article related to American Politics; this has already been explained to SPECIFICO numerous times, but that user has a pattern of "misguided...at best" distortions of my edits (and has been topic banned twice for routinely misrepresenting sources). Since SPECIFICO does not even pretend to offer any "evidence" to support the smear, I remind users that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MjolnirPants
I saw this, and wasn't going to comment, until I read the above statement by the subject of this request. The statement therein is categorically false, Casprings does not "maintain a list about" the subject. The truth is that, over the course of less than one hour, Casprings composed their complaint there before posting it here. This was trivially easy to discover, except that in my experience, the subject does indeed maintain a battleground mentality, specifically over politics.
For evidence, simply look at the long right-wing political diatribe that comprises their userpage, or their guest posting to another user's page (also full of right-wing diatribes). Pay close attention to the sourcing used for that. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- I've seen some complaints below that the diffs don't evince bad behavior in and of themselves. So here's one in which he claims everyone who disagrees with him on this issue has horrible writing skills. It's a juvenile insult to be sure, but it's an insult nonetheless. "It is an interesting coincidence that the editors in the "Russia definitely did it, and Wikipedia should say so without attribution" camp are not merely worse writers than their opponents, but also appear to be practically allergic to even semi-decent prose..."
- I have to say that I find some of the admin comments below a little disturbing... Those diffs evince an unusual, unwarranted and -frankly- disturbing level of focus on a couple of users (with one dominating that focus) for someone who purportedly has an interest in improving the article. No-one has pointed it out yet, so let me be the first to draw attention to the fact that the diffs above comprise the vast majority of TTAAC's editing on the article talk pages in recent weeks (if not the totality... I haven't checked their every edit to that page). Furthermore, this is from an editor who displays a shockingly blatant political POV. I'm a little disheartened to see the admins below basically shrugging their shoulders because this editor hasn't stooped to calling Volunteer Marek or SPECIFICO a "butthead" yet. Personally, I consider editors who focus on other editors to this extent without stooping to obvious personal attacks more damaging, due to their ability to skate through the relatively quick venues for correction like ANI or simple castigation from their peers. I would have expected admins here to pay a little more attention to the overall picture, and not focus so much on the details. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:46, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
If anyone disagree with specific edits (and believes this is misinterpreting a source), he should discuss these edits, not the contributor. This is WP:NPA, 101. Telling on article talk page that "User X has repeatedly fabricated sources to push their POV in this article", that the same user "has been topic banned twice for misrepresenting sources and POV-pushing" and that another user Y "has intentionally reinserted errors into the article" [77] was clearly not about content, but about contributors.
Why? Was it done on purpose? Was it done by mistake? Was it something normal to continue in the future? This is something to be clarified in reply by TTAAC. Or perhaps this is problem with other contributors, exactly as TTAAC tells here? If so, I think TTAAC should provide some diffs to prove it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO
@Sandstein: There's much more evidence than Casprings initially presented. Some of it was posted on the previous AE thread that @MelanieN: brought here last month. May I ask Admins to review the links cited in that thread, or would you prefer that I copy some of the diffs to the current thread?
After Dennis Brown gave TTAAC the ultimate warning in that thread, TTAAC continued his gratuitous and false personal attacks on various editors He continued to disparage mainstream RS references for the articles under DS while continuing his advocacy of his personal political opinions. I can gather some diffs if that will be helpful, but that may take a day or two. One of the problems with TTAAC's participation is that he misrepresents the substance of links and cherrypicks quotes of other editors snipping a few words that he embellishes with false and misleading accusations and aspersions. There was one example yesterday after TTAAC left the tu quoque counterpunch at Casprings here. See this pointless disparagement of @Volunteer Marek: whom TTAAC has repeatedly attacked and harassed. SPECIFICO talk 20:07, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
@Sandstein: I understand, thanks. I hope that others will join me in presenting any evidence they feel is relevant beginning after the bright line warning from Dennis Brown on December 12. SPECIFICO talk 21:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Here are a few of the diffs after Dennis Brown's warning:
TTAAC repeatedly posted hostile and ad hominem edit comments:
[78]
[79]
[80]
[81]
[82]
[83]
[84]
The following two have no diffs because the comments were apparently rev-del’d
• 22:43, 6 January 2017 (diff | hist) . . (+1,247) . . Talk:2016 United States election interference by Russia (Since SPECIFICO evidently doesn't take their own editing seriously, there is no reason for anyone else to.)
• 22:20, 7 January 2017 (diff | hist) . . (+2,296) . . Talk:2016 United States election interference by Russia (→SPECIFICO fabricates YET ANOTHER citation: new section)
Here he derogates the restrictions of DS/ARBAP2:
[85]
Battleground vs. @Volunteer Marek::
[86]
[87]
[88]
Battleground vs. @Bob K31416::
[89]
Battleground vs. SPECIFICO:
[90]
[91]
[92]
[93]
Soapbox derogation of mainstream sources:
[94]
Frivolous AE complaint vs. SPECIFICO:
[95]
There were also at least one 1RR violation and several violations of the DS requirement to seek talk page consensus before reinserting challenged content. To be continued.
SPECIFICO talk 00:12, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
This just in... Further disparagement of Volunteer Marek. SPECIFICO talk 01:40, 10 January 2017 (UTC) My turn now! Reply when @My very best wishes: points out that the TTAAC's disparagements of me on his "SPECIFICO fan page" are false. SPECIFICO talk 01:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy
Admins so far may be applying wrong policy. When the arbs set aside the original remedy statement, they replaced it with standard DS, which in turn requires compliance with several policies and among these is the policy for WP:Dispute resolution. The diffs in the complaint violate that policy because they address editor behavior and they appear at article talk. There is nothing in the DR policy that makes exceptions for behavioral commentary if it is phrased to not grab us by the short hairs. Under the DR policy, faiulure to WP:FOC is failure to WP:FOC. In my view we should be working harder against low level in civility and battle attitude, and that would go a mighty long way toward ed retention and diversity. Instead the de facto policy tends to create an evolutionary pressure in which only the tough skinned survive, at least on controversial articles. That's toxic in the long term, IMO. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN
I would just like to remind admins of the stern "this is your last chance" warning given in the closure of the last such AE report: "TheTimesAreAChanging is admonished and strongly warned that there is a reason why articles on American Politics are under Arb restriction. You are at the edge of getting topic banned or blocked. I would remind you that Arb restricted areas have little rope and you just used yours up. Discuss before reverting when you know it is going to be contentious. Being "right" is meaningless here, everyone thinks they are right. Unquestionably, if the problematic behavior continues, you will be topic banned, so I hope you use this one last chance wisely. If you want to argue about what NPOV or other policies demand, fine, do so using the talk page and not the revert button. There isn't a consensus and the interest has cooled down, so I'm taking this action to end this, using the least amount of force. Don't get used to it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC)" "Last chance" ought to mean something. The behavior documented this time is not 1RR violations or typical AE issues; rather it is long-term stalking, hounding, and harassment of certain users, a persistent battleground mentality. If nobody else is bothered by this, I am. --MelanieN (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- Comment in response to SPECIFICO's diffs: the two that were not visible were part of a long series of several dozen edits that were not just revdel'ed - they were oversighted, so even admins can't see them. TTAAT's edits were somewhere in the middle of the series so the oversighting almost certainly had nothing to do with TTAAT's edits. --MelanieN (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the thoughtful responses from several of you. If I am hearing you right, this board is not designed for long-term problems or for issues unrelated to ArbCom sanctions. Is that right? So for a long-term problem like a pattern of stalking and harrassment, something like AN would be the only appropriate venue? --MelanieN (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm confused about what I'm supposed to do here. TParis is asking me to "back up my claims", that is, to provide evidence of a longterm pattern of stalking, hounding, and harassment of two editors - Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO. TP is basically asking me to present a full AN case which would go back years (till 2012 by TTAAC's account [96]). On the other hand Sandstein is saying, don't present any diffs that predate Dennis' warning (December 12). I'm pretty sure most admins here do not want a full AN-type report. Short of that, I think the evidence presented by Casprings, while not presented in the usual format for AE, does show many examples of battleground behavior, especially the sandbox listing TTAAC's complaints against SPECIFICO [97] Harassing behavior toward these two editors? Notice the edit summaries when he is reverting SPECIFICO [98] or Volunteer Marek [99]. Examples of hounding? In a discussion on his own talk page with another editor about an unrelated matter, TTAAC pinged Volunteer Marek by referring to him as "Wikipedia's whitewasher-in-chief". [100] In December TTAAC filed an AE complaint against SPECIFICO which was closed as "no violation has occurred".[101] These are just a few samples but they might provide some sense of what I am talking about. --MelanieN (talk) 05:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by TParis
- @Uninvolved admins: Thank you for taking my concerns regarding the broader issues seriously. I appreciate being heard and I'll tone down my rhetoric.
- @MelanieN: What "last chance" certainly does not mean is that any spurious claim of misconduct will result in a block. Those asking for sanctions messed the 'last chance' up, not the reviewing uninvolved admins.--v/r - TP 20:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- @MastCell and CIreland: Do you want to know what I find disappointing? There is weak almost non-existant evidence on this report. MelanieN has followed that up with some claims of harassment and poisoned the well. This board is exactly not for unsubstantiated claims. We have WP:ASPERSIONS for a reason and this is it. It's because when people repeat claims of bad behavior enough times, without evidence, eventually others start believing in them. Unless MelanieN backs up her claims, they should be removed. And unless they are backed up, this AE should be swiftly closed before the allegations are allowed to spread like an out of control rumor. You two have already demonstrated how easily they take hold.--v/r - TP 02:12, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @CIreland: I tried, but I just can't go without addressing your comment. You said "it is only a matter of time before someone loses patience and makes a sufficiently ill-considered retort...." But your concern only appears to be editors on one side of this dispute losing their patience. Have you considered that TTAAC is so outnumbered and targeted in this topic area that they are the one being pushed, losing their patience, and making ill-considered retorts? You certainly didn't. Why?--v/r - TP 02:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @CIreland: There is no evidence here against TTAAC. Why are you asking for evidence against others but you're taking the claims of one side at face value? Have you read the evidence at all? I reviewed some of SPECIFICO's diffs, you can read my analysis on my talk page. I'll remind you that MelanieN has posted no evidence of harassment or stalking - merely allegations. Have you asked her for evidence or are you relying on your recollection of past allegations of harassment and stalking to support todays?--v/r - TP 02:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Casprings: There are a large number of conservative editors that are unwilling to get protracted in disputes or to really defend their points of view because of the attitude on this project towards Conservative editors. I know because I'm one of them.--v/r - TP 03:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: None of your diffs pertain to the editor's behavior in the topic of American Politics. No recent evidence of poor behavior has been presented. This has all been smoke and mirrors and the four of you should be sanctions for trying to game AE to perpetuate a dispute. If you have a problem with TTAAC's user page, which your rightly do, then bring it up in the appropriate forums. But, ARBAP is not the venue for your complaint. Please present evidence relevant to American political articles.--v/r - TP 05:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
There's a lot that could be diff'ed here. Plenty to choose from. Every other comment TTAAC makes is some kind of battleground - others have already provided the diffs. Which is not surprising given the long rants on their user page which pretty clearly illustrate that the user is WP:NOTHERE. But let me just focus on one thing - BLP.
- Here is TTAAC's user page from 01/04/17. Note the following BLP violations:
- " Anita Sarkeesian does not really care about video games "objectifying" women—dumpy girls just happen to feel much more threatened by hotties than dumpy guys feel threatened by hunks, hence the need to lower all standards of female attractiveness to the lowest common denominator"' - using the user page to disparage a living person (both in terms of her beliefs and her looks (wtf?)). Now to TTAAC's... half-credit, he did remove Sarkeesian's name after I brought this up on their talk page, although he couldn't resist making a personal attack in the edit summary.
- "Ana Kasparian, who previously called for re-admitting AIDs blood into the blood supply as the Left's next ideological purity test" - this is a striaght up smear of a living person (she did no such thing) and I can't believe that this was allowed to stay on his user page for so long. After even more prodding he did eventually remove it.
Now, there's still a bunch left.
- "I feel like ... I'm fucking better than you. Much better than you. You are garbage. You can call me a Social Justice Warrior. I don't give a shit. ... You're deplorable. You are a piece of shit. I have no respect for women who voted for Trump. I think you're fucking dumb."—Ana Kasparian, - this is a misquotation of the subjects. It pulls out part of three different quotes, out of context and "stitches" them together to make it seem like Kasparian was saying something ("I'm better than women who voted for Trump who are dumb pieces of shit"), which she was not. For example, the "You are garbage" quote is actually Kasparian talking about "people who take joy in attacking others who are defenseless" and those who "have no emotion when they see people shot and killed", not "women who voted for Trump". This is straight up lying about a living person and using a Wikipedia page to do so. He still hasn't removed this. (nota bene - this misquotation was made into a meme which is being passed around far-right social media)
- "Ana Kasparian, who previously (...) Leftists really are horrible, hate-filled people.". Now, he did remove the bullshit about Kasparian wanting to "readmit AIDS into the blood supply" but left the part in about "Leftist". It's the sentence which immediately follows the one about Kasparian. The obvious implication is that Kasparian is one of these "horrible, hate-filled people". So more disparaging of living persons.
- "Female supremacist Jessica Valenti..." (yes, describing a living person derogatorily as "female supremacist" is a BLP vio)
There's probably a few other BLP vios in those rants though I'm not familiar with the subjects and don't really feel like going to the trouble of verifying whether TAACC is quoting them properly or smearing them like he does with others.
This crap needs to be removed. And it illustrates crystal clear that this editor is here for WP:ADVOCACY, WP:BATTLEGROUND but WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Hence previous AE warning, hence all this trouble.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:30, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning TheTimesAreAChanging
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I agree with MjolnirPants that TTAAC's so far only comment on this request makes a bad impression.[102] TheTimesAreAChanging, due diligence would have been to look at the history of Caspring's sandbox for one minute first. Were you too pleased by an opportunity for a quick cheap "quoting" gibe to do that, on the principle of "never check a good story", or what? Anyway, it's surprising to see it on a board where you know the idea is for admins to evaluate your demeanour and interactions on Wikipedia. Bishonen | talk 16:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC).
- (EC) I'm not impressed by the silly comment on this filing by TheTimesAreAChanging, but I'm having a difficult time seeing anything in the diffs provided (three of the four of which point to the same comment) that's not the everyday red-faced bickering we see in this topic area. As TParis mentioned last time we were here, editors need to be able express dissenting opinions without being dragged to noticeboards. I don't see any egregious personal attacks unless I'm really missing something. Casprings, I think you are somewhat off-base in our interpretation of discussing "user conduct" and what you're requesting of the subject. If TheTimesAreAChangingfeels that someone is misrepresenting a source, they absolutely should discuss it on the article talk page to get other opinions. --Laser brain (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- @MelanieN: I empathize, and I'm fully aware of Dennis Brown's previous warning. What I think most of us are saying is that the report is weak. I don't see anything in the diffs presented that remotely resemble "long-term stalking, hounding, and harassment". WP:AE is not an investigative service—reports should concisely outline why the subject should be sanctioned, and this report fails to do that. A lot of reports here lately amount to "I'm telling on you" and it's reduced the efficiency and efficacy of the board. --Laser brain (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Laser brain that this seems like a weak case. Most of the diffs listed under Specifico attacks are not really attacks and the four diffs listed after "continues to attack" are actually one diff and is not beyond the bounds of heated discourse. At best, I'd suggest that the editor tone down the questioning of the competence of other editors and focus more on discussing content. The stuff in the sandbox [103] is, however, troublesome and, perhaps, needs explanation or needs to go. --regentspark (comment) 17:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with the above admins that, while TheTimesAreAChanging's comments here reflect poorly on them, the complaint does not make sufficiently clear (and it is also not clear at a glance) how the diffs at issue are "attacks" in the sense of actionable misconduct. I would therefore take no action. Sandstein 18:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO: I'm not interested in reviewing diffs already reviewed in a previous request. They have presumably been addressed (or not, as was appropriate) as needed then. Sandstein 21:18, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- MelanieN: I am taking your concerns seriously, but AE is by its nature not very good at evaluating longterm conduct patterns (unless they are very well documented in a request, which is rare and certainly not the case here). We can and do take into account repeat misconduct, but we do need an instance of misconduct in this specific case to trigger sanctions. I'm not saying that it is necessarily not present here, only that if it is, the request does a very poor job of establishing it. Just a long string of diffs is pretty much worthless to me, personally, at least. I expect something in the vein of "at [diff] on [date], [user] says "[quote]" which is [type of misconduct] because [reason]". The request template actually sets that up. Sandstein 21:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- The Hitchens stuff in the sandbox does reflect extremely badly upon TTTAAC - it's simply not acceptable in any shape or form - and needs to go (I will remove it when this request is closed). In the meantime, TTTAAC needs to seriously tone down the rhetoric or I strongly suspect a third appearance here will indeed result in sanctions. Black Kite (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- I do not agree with the admins commenting above. It is wholly unreasonable to ask the targets of such antagonistic and provocative comments to simply smile sweetly and carry on a productive discourse with this user. In an already contentious area, the tenor of the remarks in the diffs supplied surely make consensus building impossible. Moreover, it is only a matter of time before someone loses patience and makes a sufficiently ill-considered retort that lands them here, forcing admins' hands. Perhaps that is the intent behind the provocation. Regardless, TTAAC's approach to debate is intolerable and I am advocating a 6 month topic ban. CIreland (talk) 01:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @TParis: Because nobody has presented any diffs of such. If you have evidence of similar persistent patterns of behaviour by others, you should present them or file a separate report. Given, however, that my perspective on the matter seems to be in the minority, if you do present such evidence I don't see how I could offer much more than a sympathetic ear. CIreland (talk) 02:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- @TParis: I am not taking anybody's claims at face-value. I looked at Casprings' diffs and formed my own judgement. Then I looked at other people's diffs and had that judgement reinforced. I've been around long enough to know to treat the commentary presented alongside the diffs with maximum caution if not outright scepticism. It's the nature of AE that, even if it's unfair to do so, one has to assume everything above the results heading may be highly partisan and only draw conclusions based on the diffs themselves. "Face-value" would be a ridiculous approach. CIreland (talk) 03:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- This report is weak, as others have already mentioned, and the multiple diffs to the same edit is poor form at best. However, this report (and TTAAC's comments here) does contribute to the mounting evidence that TTAAC does not play well with others in this area, and engages in unhelpful baiting and provocation of other editors which does not contribute to the encyclopaedia. I strongly recommend TTAAC restricts their comments to content, not editors. I get the sense here that a better formulated report could well have resulted in sanctions. I appreciate Dennis Brown's warning appeared to be a final one, but like Black Kite, I think the next time TTAAC is brought here (assuming a properly drawn up report with some meat on it) there is a good chance that a TBAN will follow. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:19, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- I'm disappointed in many of the admin responses here. There seems to be a clear recognition that TTTAAC's behavior is disruptive and problematic, but also a reluctance to take action on this particular report because of complaints about its formal presentation. Look, the whole point of discretionary sanctions is to make it easier to deal with disruptive editing when it is identified. Instead, we're creating bureaucratic and procedural roadblocks that make it harder. It's pretty clear to any sensible admin (and everyone commenting in this thread is a sensible admin) that TTTACC is a combative, unhelpful, and counterproductive presence in this topic area. So how about we stop with the "final, absolutely last, no-more-chances, we-really-mean-it-this-time" warnings and actually address the problem that we all recognize, in keeping with the principle behind discretionary sanctions? I endorse what User:CIreland said; s/he has the right idea here. MastCell Talk 01:44, 10 January 2017 (UTC)