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== Chesdovi == |
== Chesdovi == |
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{{hat|{{User|Chesdovi}} blocked 30 days for violation of previous [[WP:TBAN|topic ban]], current topic ban length changed to indefinite. --[[User:Wgfinley|WGFinley]] ([[User talk:Wgfinley|talk]]) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC)}} |
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''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' |
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' |
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*:NMMNG: the issue here isn't whether the action was valid or Asad is misrepresenting the discussion but whether it falls under Chesdovi's ARBPIA TBAN. Changing a "mosque" category to a "synagogue" category would be a ''[[prima facie]]'' violation. --[[User:Wgfinley|WGFinley]] ([[User talk:Wgfinley|talk]]) 23:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC) |
*:NMMNG: the issue here isn't whether the action was valid or Asad is misrepresenting the discussion but whether it falls under Chesdovi's ARBPIA TBAN. Changing a "mosque" category to a "synagogue" category would be a ''[[prima facie]]'' violation. --[[User:Wgfinley|WGFinley]] ([[User talk:Wgfinley|talk]]) 23:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC) |
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*Noticing that Chesdovi has been in trouble under ARBPIA so many times and has been constantly at AE, I am surprised that he is not yet under an indefinite topic ban. If past blocks and sanctions were going to improve his behavior, they surely would have done so by now. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 03:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC) |
*Noticing that Chesdovi has been in trouble under ARBPIA so many times and has been constantly at AE, I am surprised that he is not yet under an indefinite topic ban. If past blocks and sanctions were going to improve his behavior, they surely would have done so by now. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 03:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC) |
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I've gotten nothing but cryptic emails from Chesdovi. Given the vast number of previous bans and repeated violation of the existing ban I am changing the ban to indefinite effective immediately. --[[User:Wgfinley|WGFinley]] ([[User talk:Wgfinley|talk]]) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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== SonofSetanta == |
== SonofSetanta == |
Revision as of 17:34, 15 January 2012
NYyankees51
Three-month ban from the topic of abortion on all pages of Wikipedia, broadly construed. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning NYyankees51
(Note: While in the past I've never encountered admins unwilling to block at ANEW for edit-warring on 1RR arbitration area articles, whether abortion, Israel/Palestine, etc., the admin who took my ANEW report declined it because there were only 2 reverts and directed me here, so here I am with what is more or less a duplicate of my ANEW report.)
I'd be happy to provide more instances of disruptive behavior from this user (we could begin with the diffs already provided, which in addition to violating 1RR, also insert uncited information and remove cited information, violate NPOV, etc.) but this is really just an edit-warring report that the closing admin told me to take here, so I'll limit myself.
User is aware of the 1RR in this topic area, having been blocked for violating it on three separate occasions, and is also aware that the topic is under ArbCom given that he has been a party since the case was filed and has been involved in the discussion all the way through. For sticklers, here is the user being notified of the closure of the arb case, and here is one instance among many of the user being formally warned about violating the general sanctions including 1RR.
User has a shall-we-say problematic history in this topic area, including but not limited to edit-warring, sockpuppetry, harassment, and paid editing, and was individually warned in the ArbCom decision. As I said, if y'all think we should make a proper case of it then I'd be happy to compile some more evidence, but this is enough to block for a couple of days on the 1RR violation alone, based on the user's history of violating this remedy.
Discussion concerning NYyankees51Statement by NYyankees51I did it again, I was making a series of major edits and forgot to use an in-use template. I did the same thing a couple weeks ago [2]. Sorry, I'll make sure not to do it a third time. Regardless, I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum - the case found that I engaged in a discussion that reflected a battleground mentality but it didn't have anything to do with edit warring, not to mention the other allegations Roscelese has piled in here. (Which I will address very briefly - I engaged in sockpuppetry on a baseball article, not abortion. By harassment, I assume she means an incident last year that I apologized profusely for. I have no idea where the paid editing allegation comes from.) Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm unfamiliar with enforcement. NYyankees51 (talk) 05:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning NYyankees51Comment by Nomoskedasticity"I forgot the 'in-use' template" -- does that actually work? If so, I might have to try it myself. I suspect a great many others might try it as well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:16, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by The Devil's AdvocateAs an editor who often makes large edits in segments over a similar time period I can understand why NY would make the mistake, though much greater care should be taken to look at the revision history before making further changes. I believe a two-month topic ban is a bit much under the circumstances. A longer block would be a good idea just because the editor has done this twice and has a history in the topic area.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by Dominus VobisduI only occasionally meet NY during my editing, and have never had direct contact with him. However, when I've encountered him, I've noticed that he likes to play close to the fence. This "mistake" occurred precisely because he was playing too close. A 60 day TBAN as proposed below would hopefully get the point across to back away from the fence, something his previous blocks have not done. His proposal of a 24 hour block is a bit too arrogant, and shows that he does not appreciate the gravity of his error. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Result concerning NYyankees51
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Chesdovi
Chesdovi (talk · contribs) blocked 30 days for violation of previous topic ban, current topic ban length changed to indefinite. --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Chesdovi
This edit further illustrates the reason why Chesdovi was topic-banned in the first place. It is obvious he clearly disregards what other may feel about the subject to push his point of view. His ongoing insistence on the article's talk page that the location is not, or never has been a mosque, is debated by a large number of high-quality sources. Despite his commenting on the talk page being included with his topic ban, he seems to use his own WP:OR to push his point of view. This issue is clearly related to ARBPIA especially considering the response the Israeli government gave when UNESCO named the site as a mosque. [3]
Discussion concerning ChesdoviStatement by ChesdoviChesdovi is currently blocked, I have advised him/her to post statements for this AE report here or via email. --WGFinley (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Chesdovi
Asad is misstating the discussion on the article talk page (his implication that there are a "large number of high-quality sources" contradicting Chesdovi's edit). He is also neglecting to mention that a. while there may be room for both categories, the category Chesdovi changed to is appropriate and in no way OR, and b. the category Chesdovi changed from was added recently (as in 3 days ago), without any discussion, by an editor who also has quite a long history of ARBPIA related sanctions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Also, in reverting Chesdovi's edit before filing this complaint, Asad himself removed an appropriate category from the article with no discussion. Instead of just adding a category about mosques, he removed a category about synagogues. If what Chesdovi did is inappropriate, so is what asad did. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC) @WGF OK, didn't notice Chesdovi has a specific restriction. I mistakenly read this is a regular ARBPIA enforcement request. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
In the absence of a response by Chesdovi, I regrettably concur with Wgfinley’s analysis. However, since Supreme Deliciousness has decided to comment, I’d like to highlight SupremeD’s behavior in this sordid mess, which gave rise to Chesdovi’s unfortunate edit. SupremeD has himself just come off a lengthy T-ban. Within days after coming off his ban he refers to other editors in the topic area as notoriously non-neutral editors He then goes on to harass MichaelNetzer asking Netzer personal questions about Netzer’s mother bizarrely asking what was your mother? This earned him a stern rebuke from an admin where he was reminded of his previous topic ban[6] Now, in the midst of a lengthy and rather tedious discussion underway at Rachel’s Tomb concerning whether the site ever functioned as a mosque, SD without consulting the talk page and without even providing an edit summary, adds the category of "Mosques" in the article[7] SD has previously been warned about providing edit summaries here and here and here. Amazingly, the latter warning concerned this very article, “On the above subject, I hope you can consistently provide an edit summary for each and everytime you conduct an edit here on Wikipedia. Note that the article page of Rachel's tomb happens to be one of those highly conspicuous ones” It seems that SupremeD avoids edit summaries in an attempt to avoid scrutiny of his edits. If Chesdovi is to be sanctioned for reverting a troublesome edit, I ask that under the circumstances, the combative editor that caused the problem in the first place (Supreme Deliciousness), by failing to explain his contentious edit or even providing an edit summary, be sanctioned as well.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 07:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Chesdovi
I've gotten nothing but cryptic emails from Chesdovi. Given the vast number of previous bans and repeated violation of the existing ban I am changing the ban to indefinite effective immediately. --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC) |
SonofSetanta
Blocked one week for violating 1RR at Ulster Defence Regiment, on January 8 and again on January 13. EdJohnston (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning SonofSetanta
The background on this editor is relevant here as well. He is a reincarnation of The Thunderer (talk · contribs), see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Thunderer/Archive for details. He will probably still claim he is not the same editor as he tried here, but that wasn't the conclusion at all. The Thunderer's block log can be seen here and would probably have been far worse if not the main target of his edit warring (the Ulster Defence Regiment article he's edit warring on now) being protected on multiple occasions. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#SonofSetanta is also relevant, as that was where he attempted to escape sanctions by claiming to be new and denying he was a reincarnation of The Thunderer. I asked him here and here to self-revert, as if he genuinely made two reverts in error he should have no problem reverting. He failed to do so, yet found ample time to amend my comments on his own talk page.
And further responding to below comments, SonofSetanta says "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever". As already mentioned, the investigation can be seen at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Thunderer/Archive. There are two comments in the admin section, one is by Nakon (talk · contribs) and reads "I do like that "official historian" evidence. I'm inclined to agree based on behavioral evidence, as the IP data would definitely be stale by now, but I would appreciate another admin's comment". The second is by HelloAnnyong (talk · contribs) and reads "Actually, I'm closing this case for now. SonofSetanta hasn't edited since this case was opened, and The Thunderer hasn't edited since 2008. There isn't really any overlap in the accounts, so it may be a case of lost account information or something. In other words, I'm not seeing any malicious intent here. If any new evidence comes up, though, feel free to relist" (despite lost account information never being mentioned since SonofSetanta always denied editing before, but that's another matter). So there's absolutely nowhere that the case "cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever". There is a permanent link to the talk page discussion referred to. It refers to comments that SonofSetanta is a sock. SonofSetanta claims "I asked you because you investigated me last year when he and others said the same. You concluded, rightly, that I am not. Why is he still making this accusation when it's been proven otherwise?". HelloAnnyong replies saying "I didn't say you weren't the same editor - I just said that there wasn't justification for blocks or other action". So could anyone possibly tell me where SonofSetanta was cleared of being a reincarnation, especially "without any reservations whatsoever"? Could anyone tell me what I have said is "untrue" as SonofSetanta has alleged? Anyone looking at the links or diffs can see for themselves that SonofSetanta was emphatically not cleared of being a reincarnation, and his claim of "I am not a reincarnation of anyone" is simply another attempt to avoid scrutiny given his previous lengthy block log when he edited as The Thunderer (talk · contribs). Mo ainm~Talk 17:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @ The Devil's Advocate, That's what he claims happened, but he was asked to self-revert on my talk page where he posted his claim and on his own talk page, but failed to do so. He failed to self-revert despite both those requests. Mo ainm~Talk 17:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @ Murray, I didn't add it as it was a revert of an IP which are not covered under the restrictions, but it does call into question the stance that his next revert was a "mistake" Mo ainm~Talk 19:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Notified here
Discussion concerning SonofSetantaStatement by SonofSetantaThis is a trivial misuse of the 1RR procedure. I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever. Furthermore I did not break the 1RR on this site. I edited at the same time as this other chap and my edit overwrote his. I've not come across the particular page before which showed we were cross editing so I did a "back page" and pasted the info back in which I had just written. (I always copy my info because of connection problems). My own contributions stand as testimony to the type of person and editor I am. When I realised there was a problem on this article I asked for an RfC on the portion of the site I wished to delete and gave my reasons. I also posted an apology on this poster's talk page. I did not feel I needed to revert afetr placing an RfC and once placed I felt that any editing of the disputed information constituted a breach of the 1RR. I did not go back and revert after a third (unknown) party came in a reverted my edit and feel that he is the one in breach of etiquette, not I. Furthermore I have already given a guarantee in advance that I will not post on that article until the RfC has been completed. I ask that these allegations against me be dismissed and this editor be warned about making untrue statements about someone being a sockpuppet when it is clearly untrue. Plus a simple check on my IP number will confirm I am not the person this poster claims I am. SonofSetanta I also ask that it be noted that the only time I have any trouble on this site is when trying to edit articles which involve the Irish Troubles. (namely the B Specials and the Ulster Defence Regiment) There appears to be some form of guard force around these articles who are claiming ownership and only allowing their own cabal to input or delete information. I have no interest in their partisan affiliations. I enjoy editing Wikipedia and hope my contributions are always useful and within the rules. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC) This MoAinmh has accused me of: *In response to comment below, "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever" the discussion at User talk:HelloAnnyong/Archive 13#Assistance Requested paints a totallly different picture, pointing out he replied to the post reading "I didn't say you weren't the same editor - I just said that there wasn't justification for blocks or other action" * All of this is untrue as can be seen by anyone who reads the link he has given. This goes to prove that this poster is stalking me with a view to presenting me as some sort of problem poster. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC) The poster "mury" has accused me of being in some way impolite or troublesome. I dispute this emphatically. I merely told him he should not enter into a discussion whilst the RfC was ongoing. A quick glance at the article talk page will confirm this. I am now feeling that I have been "set about" because I have dared to edit an article which someone has claimed as their own private property. No-one did this to me when I edited any of the other articles I have been on. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I am fed up to the back teeth with this editor continually calling me a sock puppet. Wikipedia rules state that everybody must treat one another in good faith. Where's the good faith being shown to me. Moaimh or whatever your name is - either prove I am a sock puppet or apologise for what you have said. I am taking no further part in this charade. Somebody can make up their own mind whether I'm genuine or not but I am dreadfully offended by what has happened and I am taking a rest from the stress of this until I feel like posting again. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC) SonofSetanta (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Further informationI have been made aware that Moaimh is actually a sock puppet of <redacted> who, together with Domer48 has been blocked numerous times for edit warring on articles concerning the Irish Troubles. In fact it would appear that all of the editors who have made statements in support of action against me for my mistake are in fact regularly involved in confrontations with other editors. I would ask that someone with more skill than I in negotiating the whys and wherefores of this site check this information out because if it is true it lends a sinister element to the reasons behind this complaint against me. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC) with regards to the information posted above: I have spent some time today going back through the history of the UDR article. It's very interesting. First of all it's Domer48 and <redacted> tackling allcomers and making editing difficult on the article. Then <redacted> disappears and Moaimh appears. The style is slightly different and I would presume that is because of the number of bans <redacted> had but it's him ok and between him and Domer48 they appear to guard the article against editing. When they see an editor off then they put in whatever they like. I note that the information I am trying to remove was posted by Domer48. There are also one or two other notable names who keep popping up with regards to the article but those are the main two. Interesting as well that when I tried to edit the Ulster Special Constabulary article "pow" this "tag team" appear and try to prevent me doing so. The methodology is simple. Revert any change by a newcomer forcing the newcomer into a reversion. Then the tag partner comes in and reverts again meaning that the poor newcomer is unable to win. It doesn't matter if it's 3RR or 1RR, it works every time. If there are any people of responsibility here, like admin or moderators I would respectfully suggest that the following might be a good idea: firstly, check if Moaimh is actually <redacted> and secondly remove posting privileges on articles which touch on the Irish Troubles from both Moaimh and Domer48 because of the continued disruption they are causing. This complaint being a perfect example. A simple error on my part - Wikipedia solution: assume good faith. So why was this complaint made? My best guess is that it has been made with the hope that I'll back off the article in question, hopefully get another ban which can be used against me in the future, and that eventually I'll get fed up trying to edit articles which the "tag team" are on. The sockpuppet accusations are part of it. The more I can be discredited and the more doubt can be created around my bona fides the better. That's my opinion based on what I have read today. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC) With further regards to the sockpuppet Moaimh. I call your attention to the comments made by One Night in Hackney (below) which are: "Clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny". Return to old topic area? Check. Return to old editing patterns? Check. Return to behavior previously identified as problematic? Check. Is it really the case that anyone with a long block log can just start again with a new name, edit the same articles in the same way and cause the same problems, yet hide behind a claim of not being the same person when it's obvious they are? Bearing in mind the extensive block log which <redacted> had, how many incidents of this nature has Moaimh been involved in? There may be a change in the behaviour pattern but it's still as disruptive as it was prior to the sock/name change and I'm the one caught in the middle of his games. (His and those of his tag partner(s). The issue is the names. The same ones keep occurring time and time again on the Ulster Defence Regiment article and they have driven off a number of editors including The Thunderer, who they all seem to be so fired up about. From what I can see he was hounded for every edit he/she was trying to make and he/she did a very good job of raising the UDR article up from stub class. It looks like he/she freaked out a bit at the end but who on earth would blame him/her with the amount of pressure he was under from this cabal (the only term I can find for it). Amongst the last postings on Thunderers home page was a statement by --Tznkai (talk) which said There is clearly a significant problem, and I intend to get to the bottom of it. I am not going to block anyone yet: there are several "guilty" parties, but I'm not yet sure if any one deserves more severe sanctions than the other. Looking further down the list of his/her posts it seems he was having incredible trouble editing the UDR and USC pages (both of which he/she raised from stub) and who are the other protagonists? Domer48 and <redacted>. Thunderer can be seen to be posting messages asking for mediation meanwhile on every article he posts he/she appears to be challenged by <redacted> which in retrospect appears to be one very serious case of stalking. My guess is that Thunderer is a bloke with a strong interest in the British military, same as me. I can say this much though: all of this happened 3 1/2 - 4 years ago and Thunderer notched up quite a few edits on a fairly big number of pages between July and November 2008. Taking military stub articles and beefing them up, most of which seem to be relatively unchanged since he left. Wikipedia lost that prolific editor because the cabal chased him out and nobody spotted what was going on, or if they did it was too late. It looks like they are trying the same with me. How long does anyone think I'll last? I've already freaked out several times when I tried to edit the UDR and USC websites. People say: stay away from those websites until you know more. I did but has anything changed? NO! As long as I leave the articles in private ownership alone I can enjoy editing Wikipedia but if I don't leave them alone I'll be hounded out. I fell for it once and got a ban and they're pushing for me to get another ban so that they can say I'm a troublemaker. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC) This complaint is without foundation and has only served as a forum for several other editors to exercise incivility and hurtful personal attacks against me. I request that the complaint be dismissed and action taken against those who have broken Wikipedia etiquette. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC) @ EdJohnston. I did no such thing. I did an accidental overwrite when making a good faith edit. I have apologised for it but as the edit was in good faith I did not see the need to revert it. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning SonofSetantaComment by Murry1975I reverted the artilce to the stable version and discussed my view of his edits being censorship to which SonofSetanta accused me of personal remarks [9]. He should have self reverted , and by his comments here "This is a trivial misuse of the 1RR procedure" from above and his previous block for similar he seems not to follow Wiki rules or even attempt ot if it does not suit him. He also mentions above the only time he has problems is on Troubles articles, maybe sanctions of a topic ban would suit after the block didnt deter this kind of rule breaking.Murry1975 (talk) 16:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @Devils Advocate, are you allowed change anothers editors words on here? I can understand removing the shouting but change words in his statement ?Murry1975 (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC) I notice Mo Ainm, has shown only 2 reverts, the first revert was http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ulster_Defence_Regiment&diff=470246283&oldid=469879852 previous to the two others. Thats THREE reverts not one on a 1RR article. Whatever about pleading that he was editing when one occured there was more.Murry1975 (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @Mo ainm , no it was a One Night In Hackney edit on the sixth not an IP edit.Murry1975 (talk) 19:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @SonofSetanta , thats a serious call also how did you come to such conclusions? And remember the last time you were block it was Mo ainm who offered help because you cliamed you were in over your head (I have read up). You are probably digging a hole for yourself , this is mainly about your breach of 1RR yet you are ignoring that point, and concentrating on the SP side.Murry1975 (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC) @This complaint was made because you, not for the first time as SonofSetanta, broke the 1RR, not anyother reason. And I too have done some research into The Thunderer. He too attacked the editors Domer and <redacted> [10] the same way you attack Domer and Mo Ainm. This is your second attempt at the UDR article for which you garnered your first ban for breach of the 1RR, an article The Thunderer breached the 1RR on many times always like you have done on it with excuses about the breach was beacuse this that and t'other. I would suggest DUCK if anyone was listening.Murry1975 (talk) 17:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by The Devil's AdvocateFrom what I can see, Setanta is saying the second revert was a mistake as the editor was still making changes and there was an edit conflict causing Setanta to undo a revert. Given the timeline and that the edit summary for the second diff refers only to a change made to the first sentence of the paragraph, this would appear to be exactly what happened. If an edit conflict message popped up Setanta should have taken greater care to insure any further editing would not have been a revert of someone else's changes.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
@Murry The first diff in the case shows that revert. Setanta's removal of information was done three times, however. The second time was a revert of an IP, which is valid, and I think the third was probably a mistake. The first time it does not appear to have been as part of any ongoing dispute over the material so probably not reasonable to classify as a revert.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Domer48Two very clear examples of reverts, and very clear notices. --Domer48'fenian' 10:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by One Night In HackneySonofSetanta asks how much longer this charade will be allowed to continue. I am forced to agree, although I refer to the charade he keeps perpetrating that he is not The Thunderer, especially when he is facing possible sanctions for his disruption. I won't bore you with all the diffs of him claiming to be new or not a sock, and just stick with the most relevant ones.
Then above we've got "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever" which flies in the face of the actual SPI case and discussion related to it. Seriously, how much longer is this going to go on for? Per WP:SOCK "Clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny". Return to old topic area? Check. Return to old editing patterns? Check. Return to behavior previously identified as problematic? Check. Is it really the case that anyone with a long block log can just start again with a new name, edit the same articles in the same way and cause the same problems, yet hide behind a claim of not being the same person when it's obvious they are? Makes incremental blocks pointless if you can. 2 lines of K303 11:17, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning SonofSetanta
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PCPP
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning PCPP
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- TransporterMan (TALK) 22:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- PCPP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Falun_Gong#Enforcement
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Falun_Gong#Log_of_blocks_and_bans
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 8 Jan 2012 Recommenced editing article laced with references to Falun Gong (Clarification: the article is laced with them, not his edits)
- 8 Jan 2012 Ditto talk page
- 8 Jan 2012 Launched Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion seeking to submit the disputes about that page to dispute resolution
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Took these actions immediately upon returning from 24-hour block from AE here for editing the referenced article.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I am not involved in the editing of the article, but am a mediator/clerk at DRN. Last block was for making edits specifically referencing Falun Gong, but topic ban is from editing any article or discussion related to Falun Gong, as this article and the DRN discussion about this article obviously are. I closed his DRN request for being in violation of his topic ban, but will reopen it if it is decided that no violation is involved with his pursuit of that article and DR about that article.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning PCPP
Statement by PCPP
In addressing Mr Stradivarius's and the admins' points, I composed the talk page comments before the 24 hour block was imposed as a right of reply to Homunculus's analysis of my edits. As now that I realize the full extent of the topic ban to even passing mentions, I have no further intention of editing or discussing that particular paragraph, essentially dropping my objections to anything relating to the banned topic. I opened the case at DRN because I have no intention of further escalating the disputes, but address my issues with the involved users with a third party, and hopefully solve them. In light of this, I have stroke through the points 11 and 12, and have no intention of editing the article throughout the process.--PCPP (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- In reply to T. Canens, I wrote the rebuttal points a few hours the talk page discussion appeared, but I found out that I was given a block as I was about to save the page. I copy+pasted it after the first block elapsed.
Comments by others about the request concerning PCPP
Comment by Shrigley
Falun Gong features in the Confucius Institutes article primarily as a member of lists of proscribed political movements in China, of which there are many. As a result, there is some competition among fringe movements in China about which among them deserve mention on our articles. If the promotion comes not by aggressive SPAs, then they come from drive-by anonymous editors, like so.
My point is, Falun Gong is grafted onto the page in the same way that the 9/11 Truth movement might be grafted onto any United States government article. There is no organic connection between the Confucius Institutes and Falun Gong. As the filer himself notes, PCPP did not touch any content which mentioned Falun Gong in the article.
The talk page issue is a bit more delicate. A group of users rolled back all of PCPP's past edits on the article, including one which mentioned Falun Gong that got him topic banned, based on bad-faith presumptions.[13] I imagine PCPP felt he had to explain himself amidst accusations that his absence on the talk page was "disruptive" and "uncommunicative".[14] He should be commended for making no direct mention towards Falun Gong in his reply.
The DRN was on track to resolving PCPP's interpersonal issues; content was not discussed, let alone the small minority of untouched Falun Gong-related content. Shrigley (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Ohconfucius
AFAICT, this complaint is obsolete as PCPP was blocked for so doing already. The objection to him opening a case at WP:DR also seems prima facie unreasonable because it is every editor's right (especially when he is met with such hostility when making good faith edits), for he seems sincere in his efforts to find an amicable solution to impasse he faces there. I daresay that if PCPP had not made the mistake of mentioning Falun Gong in that DR request – which Transporter Man closed as being in violation of WP:FLG-A – PCPP would have avoided this AE request, but may well have been accused all the same of wikilawyering notwithstanding because on of the edits in question involved removing mention of Falun Gong. In any event, I have advised him not to touch any mention of FLG or Epoch Times, even though we know ET isn't accepted as a reliable source except in matters pertaining directly to the movement.
PCPP's editing style and his efforts at finding such a solution are a marked departure from past confrontational behaviour. In addition, it would be wholly inappropriate to sanction him again bearing in mind he has not edited said articles again since his block. Per Shrigley, the offences mentioned above are technical in nature. Because editors seem to feel the need to leave traces of Falun Gong persecution everywhere, many are mere coatracks, that it is well nigh impossible for any editor on Chinese politics not to come up against these. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Homunculus
A point of clarification: the editor filing the AE noted that PCPP's edits at Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes did not directly relate to Falun Gong. Unfortunately this was not the case. PCPP deleted a whole paragraph of notable, sourced content related to Falun Gong,[[15] and severely redacted another.[16] Both were germane to the topic. As has been pointed out, PCPP was already subject to a 24-hour ban for these deletions. I do not know whether or not he violated his ban again by pursuing the issue further on the dispute resolution noticeboard—that's a question for the admins. Homunculus (duihua) 03:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Mr. Stradivarius
Hi all, I was aware of this dispute from the dispute resolution noticeboard and had a brief look at the article and the talk page, but I didn't actually comment at the noticeboard. Regarding TransporterMan's diffs: I'm not sure about the first one, but the second one does seem to be, in part, carrying on the conversation about PCPP's edits to the section mentioning Falun Gong. In particular, points 11 and 12 from that edit seem to be referring to diffs 11 and 12 from this post by Homunculus, of which number 11 seems to be one of the diffs for which PCPP received his recent 24h block. I also wanted to say that, while PCPP's topic ban is potentially problematic if he chooses to further edit Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes, when I looked at the article I saw systemic problems relating to WP:CRITICISM, which I believe PCPP was trying to correct. Because of this, I think this dispute could respond well to dispute resolution, although, as always, this would depend on all parties maintaining good conduct and a commitment to collaboration. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 15:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning PCPP
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Confucius Institute is neither directly connected to Falun Gong nor inextricably intertwined with that topic. Unless the particular edits are related to FLG - and I'm not seeing it, there is no violation here. T. Canens (talk) 02:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Mr. Stradivarius makes a good point regarding the second diff. I'd like to hear a response from PCPP about that diff before taking action, though. As to Homunculus' comment, those diffs have been dealt with already in the previous thread. T. Canens (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Mr. Stradivarius' point. The current view of topic bans allows editors to work on sensitive articles so long as they don't change anything regarding the topic area from which they are banned. PCPP appears to be failing to stay within the prescribed bounds, since it is clear that he edited Falun-Gong-related material on January 6. He was already blocked for that, but now he is raising a complaint at WP:DRN that seems to show no awareness whatever that he is banned from some of the topics he is raising. Inevitably any discussion of his DRN complaint is going to be a discussion of Falun-Gong-related material since numbers 11 and 12 of his diff here concern that material. In closing the January 6 AE with a 24-hour block, NuclearWarfare stated "Hopefully this will make him reconsider, because the next one is going to be a lot longer/indefinite otherwise." PCPP seems to be totally oblivious to the problem. The time may have come for a longer block. EdJohnston (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney
Closing for now without prejudice. SonofSetanta is welcome to refile this after his one week block expires. EdJohnston (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney
These three editors are tag teaming in order to prevent editing of the article. It is strongly felt that NPOV desperately needs to be established on this article but this three man gaming team have ignored appeals by User:Elen of the Roads (admin) [[17]] to discuss and agree edits. They are Wikilawyering to allow them to make cuts from the article but preventing me from doing the same. The extended history of the article (and many others) shows that these are tactics deployed by these three over an extended period of time on articles related to The Troubles. All have been involved in many enforcement cases before and two have an extensive list of blocks for edit warring and incivility (although one has changed identity).(This is not an attempt at outing).
Discussion concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In HackneyStatement by Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In HackneyComments by others about the request concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In HackneyResult concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney
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SonofSetanta 2
Closed as moot since SonofSetanta is already blocked one week for warring on that article (See an earlier AE that was just closed). EdJohnston (talk) 17:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning SonofSetanta
Notified here
Discussion concerning SonofSetantaStatement by SonofSetantaComments by others about the request concerning SonofSetantaResult concerning SonofSetanta
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86.145.111.123
Ulster Defence Regiment has been semiprotected for two months. EdJohnston (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning 86.145.111.123
Per the obvious same behaviour in doing nothing but revert to the exact same version ignoring whatever changes have been made since by multiple editors, the editor has also used 109.148.47.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 109.153.202.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Semi-protection should probably deal with the problem, if I took it to RFPP they'd probably say the IP hasn't been disruptive enough yet. Mo ainm~Talk 19:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning 86.145.111.123Statement by 86.145.111.123Comments by others about the request concerning 86.145.111.123Result concerning 86.145.111.123
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Jiujitsuguy
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Jiujitsuguy
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 16/12/11 Re-adds the "Archaeology museums in Israel" cat to the Rockefeller Museum article after it was removed with an edit summary of "Not in Israel". JJG provides no real explanation as to why he re-added false information.
- 09/01/12 Adds " Ex Nazis" as a belligerent on the versus Israel side in the info box on the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article.
- 09/01/12 Revert and re-adds the same info without bothering to start a discussion on the talk page.
- 12/01/12 Revert and edit-wars the material in a third time, but decides to finally bring something up about it on the talkpage.
- JJG cites Israeli historian, Benny Morris, who writes, "Several dozen Britons, most of them former British army or police officers (by mid-March 1948 some 230 British soldiers and thirty policemen had deserted), also served in the Palestinian Arab ranks, as did some volunteers from Yogoslavia and Germany. The Yugoslavs, possibly in their dozens, were both Christians, formerly members or the pro-Axis Fascist groups, and Bosnian Muslims; the handfuls of Germans were former Nazi intelligence, Wehrmacht, and SS officers."
- The Benny Morris source also states that the Jewish Yeshuv side was supported by at least 100 Americans. The only thing JJG focuses on are the “handful of Germans”. When you compare the amounts (a handful of German ex-Nazis to 100 Americans and dozens of British) you would think, in the interest of neutrality, that JJG would have added the American flag to the Jewish Yeshuv side to represent the 100 Americans or added the British flag to the Arab side to represent the "several dozen" British soldiers. But of course JJG's purpose on Wikipedia would explain why he did not decide to do that. Throwing in a reactionary and emotional symbol like a Swastika, which immediately becomes associated with the Arab armies, is a very clever way to push a POV by playing on the emotions of someone who is reading the article. Considering that he was previously topic-banned for "persistent ideological POV-pushing across many articles", one would think he would try to steer clear from these kinds of edits. All of this goes without mentioning the slow-paced edit-warring that was involved, namely two reverts within 72 hours.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Topic-banned on 4/3/11 by Sandstein (talk · contribs) for "persistent ideological POV-pushing across many articles"
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Jiujitsuguy is probably one of the most POV-warrior minded editors who I have come across. Recently, he barely escaped sanction for misrepresenting sources to push a POV. In fact, it appears as if the only reason he was not sanctioned, was do to lack consensus among admins, as one admin in particular objected and viewed the issue as a "content dispute" rather than a conduct one. The issue with this admin was later [18] clarified by ArbCom, to the understanding that such an issue is one of conduct.
You would think someone so close to facing a lengthy topic-ban, and who was recently topic-banned for manipulating sources to push a POV, would be more conscious to avoid the type of POV pushing that he has engaged by the evidence of above. But it is very clear now that Jiujitsuguy just intends to use Wikipedia as another tool of his to push one of the most minority-POVs that exist in any major political subject in the world.
- @ElComandanteChe- It is not a content dispute. There were more British and American forces who took sides during the war than there were Ex Nazi (this according to the source JJG provided). JJG cherry-picked the the belligerents and only added the Nazis and their flag to the Arab side. The first edit is shows the pattern of what behavior that JJG continues to display, and has displayed since he last topic ban expired two months ago for source distortion and POV pushing. -asad (talk) 00:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Jiujitsuguy
Statement by Jiujitsuguy
- According to Zeev Schiff, under "Makeup of Arab forces," he states that "volunteers came from among Yugoslavian Muslims, deserters from the British Army and ex-Nazis." (History of the Israeli Army, Page 29)
- According to Leslie Stein, “Some 500 Yugoslavs plus a number of Germans” fought on the Palestinian behalf. (The Making of Modern Israel, 1948-1967, Pages 44, 45)
- Benny Morris notes on page 85 that the Arab ranks included "some volunteers from Yugoslavia and Germany." The Yugoslavs were drawn from both pro-Axis fascist groups and Bosnian Muslims. The Germans were composed of Nazi intelligence, Wehrmacht and SS officers[20]. (1948, Page 85)
- With respect to Morris, I utilized that source to specify the composition of ex-Nazis and units they were drawn from and not the quantity. Asad has misleadingly drawn your attention to the wrong page. I used page 85 and my edit (which identifies the makeup of involved German units) precisely corresponds to that page. I also utilized Zeev Schiff as a source as well and I can scan and email you the page if you don’t have access to the book. Asad, in mendacious fashion leaves out the fact that I used Schiff as a source. I could have also used Stein but believed that Morris and Schiff were sufficient.
- The edits were well-sourced, accurate and explained on the discussion page[21] as well as the pages of an involved editor[22] In addition, rather than reinserting the edit I offered to compromise[23] and this suggestion was met with a positive response and agreement[24] I was glad to see that we were making progress on the issue and indicated this on respective talk and discussion pages here and here where I noted the following A discussion on the matter was held on our (GabrielF & JJG) respective talk pages and agreement as to the precise text concerning German and Yugoslav volunteers seems within reach. I'll formulate something over the weekend. The statement represents a clear indication by me to work collaboratively on the issue.
- Asad deliberately misstates the record and omits critical portions from his narrative. In an attempt to formulate a compromise, I specifically offered to remove the flag as well as other modifications. Please note my compromise offer; "Would you object to something like "foreign volunteers" (without the flag stuff) similar to that which appears on the Israeli column? Could that be a possible compromise?" The response I received was a positive one and one which looked as though the issue was about to be resolved; "I would not object to the phrase "foreign volunteers" - particularly since there were volunteers from Arab countries not mentioned. I would object to the use of flags or to listing countries of origin in the info box." My response to that was, "Excellent. Progress is always a good thing. It is refreshing to deal with editors who are open-minded I'll work on something over the weekend and present you with a modified text." This exchange represents the best of collaborative editing and is removed from Asad's convoluted narrative. In fact, Asad didn’t even participate in the discussion. It seems as though his sole role was to wait on the sidelines for the opportunity to strike. Sigh
- In sum the edits were well-sourced from reliable verifiable sources, the edits were discussed (in fact, I was first to open a discussion on the matter), A compromise was within reach, there was no violation of 1r, and I offered to work collaboratively as evidenced by the diffs. Moreover, if any admin wishes to have a scanned copy of the sources, I would me more than happy to comply--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 23:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jiujitsuguy
Comment by ElComandanteChe
I don't actually see any sense in this complaint. It's quite clear that Asad dislikes JJG, and that JJG has certain political views, but none of these is sanctionable. The first diff is month old. The rest is a content dispute, discussed right now on the relevant talk page. May be there are signs of slow edit-warring here, but JJG is the one who started the discussion on the talk page, and simultaneously worked in a collaborative manner to build a consensus version (here and here), while his opponents just kept pushing the revert button. The presented evidence is too weak to draw the sound analysis next to it. -- ElComandanteCheταλκ 00:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by ZScarpia
I'd say that the List of Belligerents quite clearly got out of hand. What readers would expect to see is a list of the major participants, which on the Arab side should probably be a list of Arab states (I doubt that Pakistan should be listed as a belligerent) and perhaps the Arab Liberation Army. I doubt that political parties should be listed as belligerents, or the 'foreign volunteers' listed on the Israeli side, who didn't serve in their own separate units. Better judgement would have precluded translating a reference to handfuls of Yugoslavs and Germans fighting on the Arab side into extending the belligerent list, particularly into making the leap of labelling Morris's ex-members of Nazi intelligence (presumably the Gestapo), the Wehrmacht and the SS as Nazis, when that isn't what Morris says, and of including the flag of Nazi Germany. ← ZScarpia 01:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I missed the facts that Jiujitsuguy gave Schiff, who explicitly uses the term ex-Nazis, as a reference in addition to Morris and that, in a passage other than the one quoted, Morris does himself use that term, so I was incorrect to state that Jiujitsuguy misrepresented Morris. My apologies to everyone. ← ZScarpia 13:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- No problem Z and thank you for your honesty. Apology whole-heartedly accepted without reservation.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. ← ZScarpia 14:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by The Devil's Advocate
Honestly, I had been thinking about bringing this to AE myself. One other article where JJG has recently been creating problems is the 1948 Palestinian exodus article. Diffs of his edits there:
The wording about "if anyone was seeking the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, it was the Arabs" was inserted into the lede of the article. His changes in the third diff with regards to scholarship are clearly tendentious, and his choice of sources leaves a lot to be desired. JJG's edits there seem to be trying to lay accusations of ethnic cleansing entirely on Pappe and by inserting material from numerous negative sources about Pappe, at times even presenting their remarks in the editorial voice as though they are facts, he is seeking to discredit the accusations themselves. JJG is cherry-picking sources and using them to push an extremely hostile POV, something he has done before. Back two months or so he was brought to AE for using travel guides to claim the Golan Heights were Israeli territory. This kind of behavior goes well beyond your typical content dispute.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
@Netzer On the 1948 war article it was only after a second revert that JJG started a discussion on the talk page, making sure to revert my revert before he did. He has exhibited the same behavior on the Nakba article where he made sure to revert the revert before going to the talk page to explain why his blatant POV-pushing was in perfect conformity with policy, avoiding NPOV and focusing on WP:V naturally. That goes back to the Golan case where he engaged in the same kind of wikilawyering to avoid the fact that he was cherry-picking and misrepresenting sources in order to push his own agenda on the article. You may find that harsh, but I am just noting what is there for all to see.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, looking at the Nakba article, JJG didn't even initiate discussion on his changes there. Roland initiated discussion after JJG objected to a different edit having been removed months before.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have also opened a discussion on the Reliable Sources noticeboard regarding the reliability of the obscure source which Jjg has used as backing for his edits.Comments welcomed. RolandR (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
@Shuki How about WP:SOAP, WP:NPOV, WP:DE, WP:POINT, and WP:GAME?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by MichaelNetzer
There is no pre-requisite in WP policy to open a talk page discussion before an edit. It is only "required" when the edit is contested, which is what JJG did, in all the cases mentioned in this complaint. It's becoming increasingly difficult to work in this area as some editors are pulling no punches in turning Wikipedia into a one-sided referendum on the topic, and removing any edits that try to bring POV balance to the articles. This contrived complaint is another such example. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- @The Blade of the Northern Lights: "Ending up here" is no indication of being guilty as charged. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: This complaint is about the charges it makes, not a referendum on how the encyclopedia "benefits" from an editor. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your time on Wikipedia might be better spent advancing arguments for how these charges are invalid, or reading the policies you claim have not been violated, rather than taking potshots at comments by administrators who work hard to ensure that the right result comes out of these complaints. Have a little faith in us. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have complete faith in admins here, HJ, and I try not to take potshots. From what I'm seeing, AE is being abused by editors who are more than happy to see a one-sided tone overpower articles in this space. They resist well sourced edits that seek balance with persistent contrived arguments that make collaboration very difficult. The talk page discussions in this case alone show this. It's natural for admins to have a difficult time seeing through it the way editors who suffer from it do. I think that's one of the reasons editors involved in this area are welcome to comment here. In light of the facts presented by JJG, should not Shuki's comment about this misleading complaint be taken into consideration? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Shuki
This is a simple content dispute and one of the most frivolous AE's opened on ARBPIA since no guideline has been violated and the nominator has not even stated which guideline of ARBPIA has been violated. Editors, like Asad, (especially experienced ones who have already commented on AE before) who open misleading AE's should instead be sanctioned themselves. The Blade of the Northern Lights, welcome to ARBPIA, or other admin, can you please take the initiative and add User:Asad112 to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#2012. Asad has already proven he knows about the page, so this is a mere formality. Thanks. --Shuki (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by BorisG
Not sure what policy has been violated here. I do agree that Nazi flag is way OTT. I welcome JJG's self cooling proposition. I also agree with Z that the list got out of hand. At the same time, am I the only one who is sick and tired of tit for tat AE requests? This one in particular look rather meritless, and warrants wp:boomerang. - BorisG (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Jiujitsuguy
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- I'm not too familiar with the history of Jiujitsuguy, so I will have to look into that more, but the above doesn't look too good. Given the history of sanctions, I would think that to include material like that he would want to bring it up on the talkpage first. Obviously awaiting Jiujitsuguy's response before trying to pin down how long any sort of sanction would be. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- @MichaelNetzer I'm fully aware that discussion is only required when an edit is contested; however, given his history of sanctions I would expect him to be more circumspect, especially given the potentially inflammatory nature of his addition. I'm finding it hard to believe that he wouldn't have expected someone to contest it, and the best thing to do when making a potentially controversial edit after having been sanctioned for making similar edits would be to discuss it first. That way, he probably could have avoided ending up here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear from JJG before anything is decided, but the above amply demonstrates the kind of battleground mentality the topic area would be better off without. The edit-warring and selective quoting of sources to effectively skew the facts, taken together with the long history of sanctions and block of which JJG has been the subject would suggest a long topic ban is in order. It seems little has changed of JJG's attitude over the past few years, except that he has learned to play the game well enough to avoid being sanctioned for any one edit. His attitude is not completely out of the ordinary, but many of those with similar attitudes are currently blocked or topic-banned. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
- @JJG: The thrust of the complaint is not the verifiability of the claim that ex-Nazis were involved, but the neutrality of it when you didn't think to mention the British, American, or Yugoslav participants that were referenced on the very same page. But you're a clever guy, you knew that. You've also failed to address the combative reverting and general battleground mentality I raised concerns about. So let me ask you a direct question: how does the Israel-Palestine topic area benefit from your presence? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- I absolutely noted Yugoslavs and the noted sources don't mention American participation under disposition of Arab forces. Foreign volunteers for the Israeli side have already been noted under Mahal. I don't understand. I did everything by the letter and spirit of the book. I made edits that were reliable and verifiable. I did not violate 1r. I was the first to open a discussion at not just the discussion page but at the talk pages of involved editors. As noted above, I indicated a strong willingness to collaborate and compromise and was making headway in that regard and now somehow, this becomes a referendum on me? I've done a helluva lot of good for the space improving the Yom Kippur war article, the War of Attrition, creating a half-dozen articles on military battles. I have provided you with the sources. I scanned and emailed them to you and you can share with any admin you'd like. I'm going well above and beyond what is required and acted in strict accordance (by letter and spirit) with the rules. What more do you want? What annoys me the most is that Asad brought this AE after I left the following comment on the discussion page; A discussion on the matter was held on our (GabrielF & JJG) respective talk pages and agreement as to the precise text concerning German and Yugoslav volunteers seems within reach. I'll formulate something over the weekend It appears that he brought this AE simply to preempt the possibility that the article would include compromise language that he would object to.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I missed that you noted the Yugoslavs as well, my apologies. I still think your conduct in reverting leaves a lot to be desired—re-adding content you know is controversial without first gaining consensus is never a good idea, regardless of whether it violates a technical restriction on number of reverts. I also think you're smart enough to know that adding the Nazi flag to such an article is likely to be seen as provocative.
I think you would benefit from voluntarily taking a break from the topic area for a few weeks, and I'm still thinking of proposing that you should be obliged to explain your reasons for any revert both in an edit summary and on the talk page, but hat could take the form of a voluntary agreement rather than a formal sanction. Other than that, I would suggest that you try very hard to act collegialy and avoid being seen to act combatively, because the more combative you're seen as being, the more likely you are to find yourself in the dock here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- Per the discussion on your talk page, I'll stay low for a few weeks.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 02:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I missed that you noted the Yugoslavs as well, my apologies. I still think your conduct in reverting leaves a lot to be desired—re-adding content you know is controversial without first gaining consensus is never a good idea, regardless of whether it violates a technical restriction on number of reverts. I also think you're smart enough to know that adding the Nazi flag to such an article is likely to be seen as provocative.
- I absolutely noted Yugoslavs and the noted sources don't mention American participation under disposition of Arab forces. Foreign volunteers for the Israeli side have already been noted under Mahal. I don't understand. I did everything by the letter and spirit of the book. I made edits that were reliable and verifiable. I did not violate 1r. I was the first to open a discussion at not just the discussion page but at the talk pages of involved editors. As noted above, I indicated a strong willingness to collaborate and compromise and was making headway in that regard and now somehow, this becomes a referendum on me? I've done a helluva lot of good for the space improving the Yom Kippur war article, the War of Attrition, creating a half-dozen articles on military battles. I have provided you with the sources. I scanned and emailed them to you and you can share with any admin you'd like. I'm going well above and beyond what is required and acted in strict accordance (by letter and spirit) with the rules. What more do you want? What annoys me the most is that Asad brought this AE after I left the following comment on the discussion page; A discussion on the matter was held on our (GabrielF & JJG) respective talk pages and agreement as to the precise text concerning German and Yugoslav volunteers seems within reach. I'll formulate something over the weekend It appears that he brought this AE simply to preempt the possibility that the article would include compromise language that he would object to.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- @JJG: The thrust of the complaint is not the verifiability of the claim that ex-Nazis were involved, but the neutrality of it when you didn't think to mention the British, American, or Yugoslav participants that were referenced on the very same page. But you're a clever guy, you knew that. You've also failed to address the combative reverting and general battleground mentality I raised concerns about. So let me ask you a direct question: how does the Israel-Palestine topic area benefit from your presence? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)