Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Climate change
Initiated by Darkness Shines (talk) at 20:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Principle 1
- Finding 2
- Remedy 3
- List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
- Darkness Shines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
- [1] (diff of notification of this thread on Username2's talk page)
- Information about amendment request
- Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested [2]
- Details of desired modification. I want it lifted.
Statement Darkness Shines
Sandstein has banned me from reverting on any article relating to climate change. Even if the edit is an obvious violation of BLP. His rationale for this sanction was to prevent further disruption, however as there was no further disruption from me then this sanction is not preventative. BLP policy is that "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion" This sanction is a violation of our policy on BLP. Yes I edit warred, yes I was wrong, but banning an editor from removing blatant violations of BLP is ridiculous. A 1RR restriction would make more sense, if I were reverted by an editor then I would go to the article talk page to make a case.
I suppose I have to point out that Kaj Taj Mahal is a SPA whose sole purpose on Wikipedia is to denigrate the BLP James Delingpole. Edits such as writing having no scientific or intellectual qualifications himself to make this accusation. Or calling him a mental-midget. Or violating NPOV and LABEL by adding a section title Anthropogenic climate change denial The sanction imposed on myself means the first diff I presented here could not be removed by me, which is a ridiculous state of affairs. Darkness Shines (talk) 01:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by MastCell
Please note that DarknessShines appealed his restriction to WP:AE this past week, where his appeal was reviewed and declined unanimously by 5 admins. Here's a link to the appeal, as I don't see one provided above. MastCell Talk 22:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by The Devil's Advocate
While admins are allowed to extend editing restrictions to include a ban on removing BLP violations and vandalism, it is excessive for Sandstein to have both removed the exemption and subjected DS to a 0RR. A block for edit-warring given the contentious nature of the BLP claim, simply removing the exemption, or even a 1RR with no exemption for removing BLP violations and vandalism would have all been better geared towards addressing the cause of the problem without needlessly barring constructive editing in the topic area. Going straight to a 0RR with no exemptions is unduly severe.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Kaj Taj Mahal
His behaviour at Talk:James Delingpole was rather disheartening, and precludes me from supporting any relaxation of sanctions. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Collect: I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with whose behaviours you are talking about (perhaps you could inform me), but my reservations about Darkness Shines' sanction-lifting comes from the template fiasco, for which he was admonished for here. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just to add one more thing, I think this baseless SPI request is somewhat indicative of his maturity level. This sort of ad hominem targeting lowers my confidence in his ability to edit these types of sensitive articles without provoking a conflict. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Darkness Shines: I have many varied purposes on Wikipedia. Just one of my aims isn't to denigrate, but to improve the accuracy and neutrality on the James Delingpole article. --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Collect
Please note the talk page discussions on "section titles" at that page [3] and at the corresponding BLP/N discussion[4] wherein I fear that some of the disputants complaining most loudly about DS seem to evince essentially the same behaviour as they dislike in him. I suggest that the equivalent sanction actually be extended to each of those editors de novo by motion as a result in order to calm down what appears to be a relatively toxic atmosphere in that corner of the Wiki-world. My sole connection here is suggesting a neutral and clear section title, by the way. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
Clarification request: Tea Party movement
Initiated by Malke 2010 (talk) 00:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)at 00:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Tea Party movement arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
- Link to relevant decision
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Malke 2010 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Goethean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- North8000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Collect (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Users notified:
- Arthur Rubin
- Collect
- North8000
- Goethean
Statement by Malke 2010
The 2013 Arbitration case involving Tea Party movement resulted in topic bans for myself and the above named editors. I'd made an edit request at Gun control. It later occurred to me that gun control is an issue for some groups in the tea party movement. Since the topic ban states, "broadly construed," I'd like to know if this article would be considered among those that are to be avoided. The above named editors have all edited the article after the TPm topic ban. I've avoided all political articles as I do not wish to violate the ban in any way. Thank you.
- Does the article Gun control qualify as one of the pages included in the Tea Party movement topic ban?
@NewsAndEventsGuy: Thank you for the commonsense approach. That's an interesting analogy, but Amelia Earhardt didn't make Cookies a political issue. Apparently, the gun thing is a big issue for the tea party movement as well as certain constitutional amendments including the 2nd amendment, right to bear arms. I agree commonsense should be the guide, but when one is topic banned, it's best to ask first, edit second. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad & Carcharoth: Thank you both. That is excellent advice. General topics okay, specific no. Best to stay away from everything until ban lifted. Malke 2010 (talk) 03:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy
No, not covered If "gun control" is covered by the Tea Party topic ban, then all articles on every issue mentioned in any local Tea Party chapter's platform are similarly covered by the ban. That would be absurd. If I am banned from talking about Amelia Earhart, and I wish to edit Cookies, am I barred from doing so, since Earhart liked to bake cookies? Same difference. Discussion of an issue is not the same thing as discussion about a party that happnes to care about the issue. That said, one should steer clear of overtly party-related subsections, and I know that's dicey, but the world's an imperfect place. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Collect
I suggest that before assuming that the article in question has anything to do with the TPm, one might note that "tea party" occurs exactly zero times in that article. In fact "tea" occurs zero times in that article. I suggest that saying it is covered in any part by a ban on TPm is stretching the bungee cord to the breaking point, indeed. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The Paul Ryan case is interesting. It does not make any reference to him being directly connected with the TPm at all. The only "connection" is surmise in an AP article. The article is not listed in any TPm related categories whatsoever. North8000 made no edit remotely connected with the TPm on that BLP that I can find. So -- no real connection to TPm and the edits had absolutely no connection to the TPm means that side issue is grossly overstated here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Tangent by MastCell
While we're on the subject of defining the Tea-Party topic ban, what about Paul Ryan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)? Ryan has been closely identified with the Tea Party and its agenda by, among others, the Associated Press ("Tea party gets its man in Ryan for vice president"), the New York Times ("Ryan Brings the Tea Party to the Ticket"), and CBS News ("Why Tea Party senior citizens love Paul Ryan").
North8000 (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from Tea-Party-related topics broadly construed. Yet North8000 is actively editing the article and talkpage, after being recruited by another editor to "enforce the consensus" [sic] on the article. Does the Paul Ryan article fall under the umbrella of Tea-Party-related topics, broadly construed? MastCell Talk 17:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by NuclearWarfare
I agree with the views of the Committee members that have been stated so far. However, I think that it is worth considering (for the future, maybe, but maybe also for now) whether we made a mistake in making the topic ban so narrow. Might it have been a better choice to make the topic ban an American politics topic ban, or a "really, stop dancing around the edges of all this and go edit something about Mesopotamian architecture"-ban. After all, should we really expect someone who has been disruptive at Tea Party movement to be any better at John Cornyn or Libertarianism or BigGovernment.com? NW (Talk) 20:08, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by olive
While the Tea Party movement deals with gun control, the topic of gun control is not limited to the Tea Party movement. So, for an editor to edit on gun control does not in any way mean they are editing in the area of the Tea Party movement. Surmise, and extending a sanction based on a surmise so that a sanction becomes sweeping is hardly fair or logical in my opinion. Per Floqquenbeam, the question should be specific. Does this article deal with the Tea Party movement specifically. If it takes the arbitration committee to clarify if it does or not, (and I so no evidence that it does), then the second question to ask is, did the editor know this article falls under Tea Party movement. Giving the editor the benefit of the doubt given even the arb committee is discussing this means, in my mind, the editor should be warned to be careful not sanctioned. But as I said in this case, there is no evidence that the article falls under Tea Party movement.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC))
Statement by other user
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
- In my view, edits about gun control in general would not be covered, although edits about the specific issue of Tea Party members' views on gun control would be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Newyorkbrad, so the advice seems to be that if those banned from the Tea Party topic want to edit any article not directly on the Tea Party topic, but where this movement and its policies are mentioned, they should do so with caution and with the topic ban in mind. It may be easier to find something else to edit. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I understand why people might think gun control (and Paul Ryan) could be covered by the tea party topic, but I believe they're both far enough removed that they really shouldn't be. If someone who is already topic banned from TPM articles is causing trouble at articles on a slightly-related subject, I don't think the community needs to start at ground zero for the new topic in trying to change the behavior, but as a straight-up "is it covered or not" question, I would say no. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with all the above. There are certainly places where the topics of gun control and the Tea Party intersect. Those places are not somewhere for users subject to a topic ban to be editing, but the broader topic should not be off limits. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with my learned colleagues. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- As do I. NativeForeigner Talk 08:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Amendment request: Infoboxes
Initiated by --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Case affected : Infoboxes arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
- Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Andy
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request
Statement by Gerda Arendt
As already stated while the case was open, this puts Andy in the position not being able to add infoboxes to articles which he creates. A proposal to change that, Include infoboxes in new articles which they create, was then supported by ColonelHenry, Johnbod, Crisco 1492, Montanabw, improved wording requested by Philosopher, Mackensen and SchroCat. The proposal was opposed by Giano and Folantin, and was discussed.
Today we saw one of Andy's articles as lead DYK on the Main page: Magistrate of Brussels. I ask to add a clause that ends the restriction on his newly created articles: he is in no conflict with any other user, responsible for the content of an article he creates, and is not in conflict with the interests of Wikipedia adding an infobox for a painting, a street or a military person. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Andy Mabbett
I wasn't aware of Gerda's plans to make this request, but I thank her for it and endorse it (I had intended to make such a request at a later date). I wish to include infoboxes in articles I create, and there appears to be no cogent reason why I should not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment by Penwhale
If the restriction was to be removed from articles he recently created (which should be classified both by (a) article age and (b) number of edits by other editors), then I would also recommend that he be allowed to defend his reasoning to include said infoboxes at the appropriate places. Without this, editors could unilaterally remove boxes from Andy's recently-created articles and he would not be able to do a thing about it. I doubt it will come up often, but I at this point don't see harm also granting him this capability. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 00:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: I like your ideas, save for the first one - I would amend it so that if specific article(s) have/has few or no other contributors, he would be given a bit more leeway with the infoboxes in such article(s). Call it the someone's got to keep an eye on it clause. I also would support a revision count instead or in addition to the article age (since creation) for definition of such articles.- Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 03:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf
If the committee is going to allow an exemption for articles Andy has recently created, please could they define what they mean by "recently". Doing so would remove the potential for much argument that could very easily lead to more work at AE and/or another amendment/clarification request down the line. I also endorse Penwhales's comments about discussion.
As your starter for 10, how about:
- Andy may add infoboxes to articles created in the past 3 calendar months where he is unambiguously the creator and/or only significant author.
- He may participate in any discussion, started by any other user, about infoboxes on individual articles meeting the above criteria.
- He may initiate a discussion about the undiscussed removal of an infobox from an article meeting the above criteria but he may not reinstate the infobox without consensus, except he may:
- revert obvious vandalism that removed the infobox (e.g. page or section blanking)
- revert or fix obvious error that unintentionally stopped an infobox from apearing. He may discuss an infobox with an editor to the extent required to understand their intent.
- revert the removal of an infobox on one of these articles if the removing editor has not offered an explanation after 1 week and no other user has commented in support of the removal.
- Any user apparently stalking Andy's edits or otherwise systematically removing infoboxes added by Andy may be blocked by an uninvolved adminstrator for up to a week (first offence) or up to a year (third and subsequent offences) following consensus at WP:AE. Andy may initiate and/or comment in any such AE discussion.
Hopefully something like that should be acceptable to all parties and leave no significant grey areas. Thryduulf (talk) 02:20, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- PS: I plucked the time period out the air, but it seems a recent definition of "recent" to me for this context. I intend that the time period is a rolling one of three months from $current_day not three months from the date an ammendment is past.
@Folantin: if you want to accuse Andy of sockpuppetry you should make a formal presentation of the evidence at WP:SPI. If you don't, you should withdrawn the insinuations you've made here. Thryduulf (talk) 01:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- An SPI case was submitted. It was closed without action by clerk Reaper Eternal who was "not convinced" by the behavioural evidence presented and concluded "There's no real evidence to support sock puppetry" The case has now been archived to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Pigsonthewing/Archive. Thryduulf (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment by Nikkimaria
- 80% of the articles created by Andy since the case closed, including the one with which Gerda opened this request, have infoboxes—most added by either editors who supported Andy during the case or a Birmingham public library IP, and then developed by Andy. Indeed, this pattern holds true also for a number of articles not created by Andy.
- In an earlier clarification request, the committee concluded that "acting on behalf of a restricted user to breach a restriction...is not permitted". In the discussions that resulted in this remedy, a number of arbs stated that Andy "does need to take time away from infoboxes". Neither seems to have been heeded.
Under such conditions, and given that the subject has consistently regarded "authorial choice" in excluding a box from an article one creates as "ownership"....why is this request here? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- @WTT: I would be (pleasantly) surprised to see Andy support that statement. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Folantin
Since late September 2013 (i.e. just after the ArbCom sanctions passed), a Birmingham IP 80.249.48.109 (talk · contribs) has taken a sudden interest in infoboxes. Funnily enough, this has tended to occur around the same time Andy Mabbett has contributed to many of the same articles.--Folantin (talk) 11:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is socking, meat puppetry or something else, but there are more than enough WP:DUCK grounds for suspicion here. According to Nikkimaria,several of these IPs have been behaving in the same way [5][6][7]. All Birmingham educational addresses. According to his own Wikipedia user page, Andy Mabbett lives in Birmingham and works in education.
Examples: The only users to edit the Birmingham Union workhouse article are Pigsonthewing and an anonymous infobox-adding IP: [8]. Almost exactly the same thing happens with Sir Richard Ranulph FitzHerbert, 9th Baronet [9]: the only edit the IP makes is to add an infobox, while all other edits to the article (barring a minor fix) are by Andy Mabbett. On Denville Hall, the only edit [10] an anonymous IP makes to the page is to add an infobox right among a bunch of edits by Pigsonthewing [11]. An IP manages to produce a fully formatted infobox in its sixth ever edit to Wikipedia [12], again right in the middle of a bunch of Andy Mabbett's contributions to the same article.
This is well beyond coincidence. --Folantin (talk) 09:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- More evidence collected here [13]. I could request an SPI but I don't think it's necessary per the duck test. The behavioural evidence that these IPs and Pigsonthewing are connected goes well beyond reasonable doubt. --Folantin (talk) 13:19, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Update I've now gone ahead and asked for an SPI per Arbitrator Beeblebrox's request. The evidence is here [14]. --Folantin (talk) 14:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by RexxS
It is exactly this sort of adversity by innuendo that make editors like Folantin so poisonous to the collaborative environment we should be striving to create on Wikipedia. There are 1 million people in Birmingham city and 2 million people in the surrounding urban area, including both Andy and myself. I live as close to the city centre as Andy does and have far more links with education than he does now, or ever had. Why not accuse me of being the IPs? A look at the geolocation for the IPs that Folantin lists shows that they are mainly school addresses. Here's the homepage for Birmingham Grid for Learning: http://www.bgfl.org/ - see for yourself that it's part of the National Grid for Learning (which connects schools to the internet) and you can quickly click through from the homepage to the directory of schools, http://services.bgfl.org/cfpages/schools/default.cfm where you'll find that Birmingham has hundreds of schools connected to BGfL. Is Folantin now claiming that Andy is getting into schools and using their computers to edit Wikipedia pages? I'm afraid that it's far more likely that there are many Wikipedia editors in Birmingham schools who may add infoboxes, considering the majority of articles on the English Wikipedia have one (at least 2.4 million out of 4.4 million). I suppose the next step will be Folantin blaming Andy for all of those as well? --RexxS (talk) 14:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by {other user}
Clerk notes
- This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
- Before proceeding further, we should wait for a response from Andy (Pigsonthewing) as to whether he wants this amendment request to be made or not, and if he does, he should then make a statement and Gerda should step back and let matters proceed from there. Carcharoth (talk) 02:55, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Now that Andy has 'taken over' this request that was initially made by Gerda, my inclination would be to deny the amendment request. The reason is that both this proposed amendment, and the remedy that was passed for Gerda, are taking the wrong approach. Whether an article does or does not have an infobox should not depend on the initial author or creator. It is the article topic and content that should determine whether it has an infobox (well-thought out infoboxes are, by design, intended to be applied to an easily definable and finite series of articles - as opposed to an overly broad and open-ended category). If it is an article that fits within a defined series (e.g. planets, chemical elements, and so on), then there should be no problem. If it is a disputed area (e.g. people - not all articles on people are amenable to being presented in infobox form) then there should be a discussion. If there is any doubt, leave it off and/or raise the matter on the talk page for discussion.
On a wider point, what those who participated in the infobox case should be doing is preparing the ground for a discussion to help address ways to include the data contained in infoboxes in ways that do not force articles to have infoboxes, and to address the wider question of why when 'boxes' in general were first created, infoboxes gravitated to the top right-hand corner, and other boxes (e.g. navboxes and succession boxes) gravitated to the bottom of articles (series boxes ended up in-between). If categories were displayed at the top of articles, they would get argued over a lot more. It is the location of infoboxes in 'prime territory' right up front that causes much of the dissension IMO. Find some way of resolving that tension and people might argue less over them. Also tackle the issue of 'narrow' vs 'broad' infoboxes. But all these issues can only be addressed if the wider community actually has those discussions. Carcharoth (talk) 01:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Now that Andy has 'taken over' this request that was initially made by Gerda, my inclination would be to deny the amendment request. The reason is that both this proposed amendment, and the remedy that was passed for Gerda, are taking the wrong approach. Whether an article does or does not have an infobox should not depend on the initial author or creator. It is the article topic and content that should determine whether it has an infobox (well-thought out infoboxes are, by design, intended to be applied to an easily definable and finite series of articles - as opposed to an overly broad and open-ended category). If it is an article that fits within a defined series (e.g. planets, chemical elements, and so on), then there should be no problem. If it is a disputed area (e.g. people - not all articles on people are amenable to being presented in infobox form) then there should be a discussion. If there is any doubt, leave it off and/or raise the matter on the talk page for discussion.
- Agree with Carcharoth - this should be coming from Andy, not you Gerda. WormTT(talk) 11:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'd certainly support Andy being allowed to add infoboxes to articles he has created, though as Beeblebrox suggests, if others remove it, he will be topic banned from the subsequent discussion.
- @Nikkimaria:, allowing Andy to add infoboxes to articles he creates and only those articles does give a clear sign that authorship has weight. I have seen no evidence that Andy is asking other users to put infoboxes on the articles he creates, nor that he has not heeded the topic ban in the short period since the case. WormTT(talk) 07:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Now that Andy has spoken up about this I think I would support allowing such an amendment, provided that it is made clear that this applies only to articles Andy has recently created. If others come along later and object to or remove said infobox, the TBAN would still apply. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Folantin: Thrydulff is quite right, either proffer your evidence at WP:SPI or do not make such accusations. "Put up or shut up" is pretty much standard procedure for accusations of socking, which can be extremely damaging to a user even if they have not actually done it. Please either show us the SPI case page with relevant evidence or strike your remarks. Thanks. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I have no objection to this amendment as applied to articles of which Andy Mabbett is clearly and unambiguously the creator. If there is room for doubt (e.g. the situation that arose last fall with an article that had been drafted in AfC space and that Andy published into mainspace), steer clear or ask first. I will add that although Gerda Arendt's raising an infobox-related issue may work out okay in this instance, in general she would be very well served to take the strong advice that she was given here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- In my opinion this request should be denied. In the past, when dealing with infoboxes, Andy's approach has often been problematic and, for that, he had to be removed from the playing field. I don't think it's wise to allow him back now, even in part and, on top of that, since, as Nikkimaria mentions, 80% of the articles created by Andy since the case closed have infoboxes, I also see no reason to relax the restriction, which might lead to wikilawyering and endless AE threads (examples may include: he created the article three months and a day ago, he was not the only significant author and so on). In my opinion, when a sanction becomes necessary, it's best for it to be plain, simple and clear. A sanction, in short, that does not allow for many exceptions of grey areas, which in this case, is a restriction preventing Andy from making any edits concerning infoboxes tout court. I'd also like to add that Gerda would do well to choose to stay away from this topic for a bit, because her behaviour since the case has closed has done nothing but convince me that the sanction we imposed on her should be changed to match Andy's. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- My thoughts on this mirror Salvio's. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- I also agree with Salvio's exposition, Roger Davies talk 00:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- My heart tells me "per NYB". My head tells me "per Salvio". The actual effective difference between the two is small enough that I'll go with my heart this time. I suggest Andy be allowed to add infoboxes to articles he unambiguously has "created", but if that is opposed for any reason then the topic ban continues to apply. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make everyone on the project, pro-, con-, or indifferent, care one to two orders of magnitude less about infoboxes than they do now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Clarification request: Fæ
Initiated by Fæ (talk) at 13:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Link to "Unblocked by the Arbitration Committee" statement
Statement by Fæ
This request was first raised two months ago at AC/N link when I was advised to re-raise it here after the elections.
At the beginning of last year Arbcom accepted my appeal but at that point introduced the restrictions:[15]
- topic banned from editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed
- topic banned from images relating to sexuality, broadly construed
I am requesting that the restrictions are lifted as not being of practical benefit to the project, in particular they are a key reason why I am avoiding offering my experience and volunteer time for training events or content creation projects that would improve the English Wikipedia. As an example of how difficult these broad restrictions are to comply with, in November 2013 I ran a one-off presentation and workshop with Kings College London as part of a UK "Women in Science" series of events[16]; these events are widely seen as a positive step by the Wikipedia community and a positive story by the global press with regard to addressing perceived systematic gender bias for Wikipedia content. During the event I created a stub[17] for Susan Lea, a professor of psychology at the college, as suggested by attendees, during the same event this was developed. It never occurred to me this may be an issue and it was only later that I realized that Lea's research covers sexual violence and rape.
Due to my past stressful experience of being harassed, I focused my volunteer time during 2013 on Wikimedia Commons, where I have uploaded over 160,000 photographs, and on request supported the Welsh Wikipedia where a continuing cooperative project has resulted in my uploading 2,700 requested book covers with 700 new articles about authors being created (some are authors on LGBT topics, though I have not created the articles). Apart from a handful of related image renames or behind the scenes OTRS work, I remained retired as a Wikipedian during 2013.
I have a long running interest in LGBT history and archives and I am at an informal exploratory discussion stage with a London college and planning to contact an independent library/archive I helped a few years ago, for a volunteer project I hope get off the ground in early 2014 (in advance of Wikimania 2014) that would help English Wikipedia content with media and previously unpublished source material, and could itself support the case for funding of an academic placement of a Wikipedian in Residence. I aim to get a proposal completed by February. By its nature a LGBT project would involve articles about events and living people (being from the 1950s to the current time) and LGBT material would be considered under the broad topic of sexuality.
Note, I have an approved project grant from WMUK[18] which supports Commons batch upload projects during 2014. Should there be a suitable opportunity to batch upload LGBT archive material, it is likely that it would be covered by the current grant.
I hope this request can be handled in a respectful way, especially considering the off-wiki attention that this topic tends to attract. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Worm That Turned—My focus has been on other projects, partly due to being concerned about how wide the topic ban of sexuality broadly construed is. You may wish to consider my Wikimedia work as demonstrated by some of my 2013 projects: Aeroplanes, LACMA (art history), MOD, Welsh books. These and my other projects have generated huge amounts of valuable educational content. In addition my long term role on the GLAMwiki Toolset steering group has resulted in Wikimedia tools which are about to generate many millions of high quality media assets for Wikipedia in partnership with many international leading institutions.
- @Beeblebrox—As an example the difficulty of how broad "sexuality" is, I was at the Tate Britain exhibition on Art Under Attack this afternoon and was particularly interested in whether we could get versions of the New Scotland Yard letters from 1914 carrying warnings about suffragettes known to have made attacks on artworks, and so reasonably improve Wikipedia's articles about WSPU members. I believe any work such as this, potentially in partnership with the British Museum and Women's Library would be impossible for me to support under the current restrictions. In terms of past problems, I believe you are probably referring to edits I made back in 2010 or earlier. I have made well over 1,000,000 edits on various Wikimedia projects in the 3 years since then.[19][20] In terms of others wanting my support, I have a planned training and workshop day with the National Maritime Museum and other museum staff next month and should also get on with spending the WMUK project grant later this month, none of this volunteer work is made easy with a broadly construed topic ban making impossible any edit to the English Wikipedia touching topics such as women's rights, or notable figures in naval history who happen to be of LGBT interest (there are many). You may wish to consider how well followed my edits are, giving you some assurance that any problem I create would be likely to be rapidly flagged, in all probability both to me and many others.
- Related to this point, I would like specific short term permission to make an article about an 11th century B.C. statue in the British Museum that one of my historian friends asked me to take photographs of for an undergraduate course; it was always my intention to create a Wikipedia article about this unique statue and I am unsure how else would be appropriate to ask for a specific waiver, and this may prove a good example of my editing strengths to support a later full appeal. This is in the BM catalogue here and my photographs were published on Commons at Category:Assyrian statue BM 124963 in June last year. The good quality cuneiform inscription (for which my photographs appear to be some of the best published records as even the BM only has one partial photo) is a key document from Ashur-bel-kala's rule.
- @Nick-D, thanks for the feedback, however I believe you are being rather unfair on this criticism as you are referring to a batch upload project completed in February 2013, in fact the IWM uploads were my first project which I was motivated to start after the death of Aaron Swartz, and there have been many other better managed batch uploads since then. If you check the project pages above, I put a great deal of careful attention and cooperative discussion on how best to add useful categories, descriptions, metadata and find specific and useful file-names for my uploads. If you check my Commons talk page history I put significant effort into improving and testing alternatives when my fellow contributors raise concerns. For more relevant history, you may want to check my user page on this project where there are links to my past excellent FA and GA work before the Arbcom case.
- I note your separate question on Commons categories, so I guess you are happy with my current work on file naming. Around 95%+ of the US Department of Defense uploads have reasonable categories on upload based on heuristics I have carefully and cautiously built up over the last 8 months and published on-wiki, with a reasonable community consensus behind the project, and those with no categories are flagged to me during upload; in fact they result in a tab popping up on my browser showing the image page so I can manually add a category if I wish. In contrast the related UK Ministry of Defence batch upload project has no automated categorization as a deliberate choice, as explained in the main project category. I think this question is now a long way from the topic of this request, so if you would like to help me and others with feedback on these batch uploads, I suggest doing so on Commons rather than on the English Wikipedia.
- @Thryduulf, my reason for asking to remove the restrictions was that I do not believe that they serve to protect or improve the content of the English Wikipedia. With regard to BLPs, this was about a reference I added to an article in July 2011, which was at the time was removed after discussion rather than dispute resolution, and was not part of a pattern of problematic BLP editing; in fact if you are looking for evidence for my positive work on BLPs, you can find some by going to User:Fæ/Underworld/Backlogs where you can see a long term BLP specific project I ran to add reliable sources to BLPs in order to overturn PRODs. We are now in the third year since that regrettable problematic edit, and I would like to return to normal editing and help the Wikimedia movement through my interest in working with GLAM partners. This becomes a sad non-starter if I have to start off by explaining that I am considered unsafe to edit articles or feel obliged to repeat unpleasant details of my long term internet harassment which I would rather forget. I think everyone is aware that my edits here will continue to be scrutinized and made part of the 4 years of off-wiki live commentary about me. In this context I have no doubt that any edit I make that may be interpreted as against any guidelines or policy would be rapidly escalated, probably resulting in the harshest possible sanctions, without needing edit restrictions to enforce it. Perhaps you can understand how this has made returning to helping create content on Wikipedia a depressing prospect for me over the last year.
- However I am happy to be pragmatic, if this can provide a way of restoring my confidence enough to follow up on making proposals for LGBT projects with outcomes before Wikimania, without misleading any archivist or librarian I am in discussion with by making commitments for creating Wikipedia content that I would later be unable to deliver on.
- Perhaps for the moment, we can consider a simple clarification without requiring Arbcom to agree any amendment that:
- Articles relating to LGBT and other rights history and associated culture that do not focus on living subjects, even if they contain references or details on living subjects, are outside of this restriction for example GLF, Campaign for Homosexual Equality, Women's Social and Political Union, Stonewall (charity).
- Creating or editing BLPs where a sexuality connection was not apparent, such as happened with Susan Lea will not be considered an infraction. I am happy to pre-emptively report on similar accidental situations should this occur again, if there is a procedure for doing so; in fact it would be immensely helpful if an Arbcom member were available to help interpret the broad editing restriction so that I can run any project proposals past them for comment.
- Non-sexual pre-20th century images and images of pre-20th century artefacts and artworks are outside of the intended scope of the restriction. For example the 22,000 art history images at Images from LACMA and the previously mentioned 11th C. BCE statue without obvious sexual content; i.e. a symbolic goddess of love is not strictly sexuality, but a photograph of a 1st century Roman good-luck phallus charm would be within the sexuality restriction for images.
- Historic political documents, political posters and official portraits or public group photographs as part of political organizations or historic protests that have a focus on human rights rather than a focus on sexuality are outside the intended scope of the restriction. This distinguishes images of sexuality from images that have educational value in illustrating human rights relating to gender and gender identity. For example the 20th century portrait File:Emmeline Pankhurst I.png. For the moment I would imagine that my restored historic photograph of Park and Boulton File:Park and Boulton (Fanny and Stella) restored.jpg or my restoration of Cecil Beaton's wartime photograph (probably not intentionally related to sexuality by Beaton, but later interpreted as homoerotic) File:Life at Sea on Board HMS Alcantara, March 1942 CBM1049 adjusted.jpg, would remain within the restriction as these would require an amendment rather than a clarification.
- By the way, I know a lot has been read into me raising this request on the Bank Holiday. From my viewpoint this was a quiet day when I could write out a request, as I was previously advised by Arbcom members to do on the noticeboard. It was not my intention to pointily create this request on the first day the new committee was available. I am normally more politically astute than to do something so stupid, in this case I was let down by my lack of awareness of how the Committee works.
- I believe the example of Sandi Toksvig as a BLP that I could edit is unhelpful. Should I touch an article about someone like Toksig with a public profile as an advocate for LGBT rights, I have no doubt this would be evidence for someone to request an edit block due to being in contravention of Arbcom's restriction. It is not FUD when I explain in this request that this restriction depresses me, and this is part of why staying retired during 2013 seemed preferable to editing. I feel it would be seriously unwise or appear misleading or incompetent for me to put myself in the position of putting my name against a LGBT related funding proposal for Wikipedia content creation, or leading a room of potential Wikipedia editors with expertise in LGBT matters, only to have to confess that though I have been creating and editing LGBT articles on the English Wikipedia for 8 years, I am officially considered untrusted to edit any BLP related to sexuality in its broadest possible interpretation, including any LGBT context, when the history of LGBT is fundamentally about the people that made it happen. My main personal driver for risking the inevitable off-wiki abuse for coming out of retirement and raising this question back in November 2013 with Arbcom, was to support my discussions for projects related to gay history month in February 2014. I have been involved with LGBT history and advocacy groups for over 30 years. My interest in Wikipedia will always be entwined with my knowledge of this subject and my personal LGBT network. Yes there are unpaid volunteers like yourself who might join in with an LGBT event, but active WMUK volunteers who are openly LGBT and prepared to use their free time to create LGBT projects and partnerships with LGBT archives and related organizations are in short supply, I would have difficulty naming more than 3, including myself, and I am only aware of me attempting to create any new projects for 2014.
- @Newyorkbrad: Thanks for the response to my clarifications above. I find it deeply depressing that the restriction should now be interpreted to include any article that touches on the general history of women's rights or LGBT history and associated culture and not just BLPs. Having no confidence that I will ever be allowed to support any project outcomes, makes it impossible to proceed with a 2014 proposal for an LGBT initiative supported by the UK chapter, and I shall have to reject the existing request for my support of a women in science related training event later this year as these invariably touch topics related to feminism. The limited number of unpaid UK volunteers prepared to openly work on LGBT projects, means that for the third year running, Wikimedia UK will now fail to have delivered any LGBT friendly Wikipedia content creation event as part of LGBT History Month (in February).
Statement by Thryduulf
Fæ, I would recommend that if you wish to return to full editing on en.wp that you spend some time between now and march formulating a request to narrow the scope of your topic bans rather than removing them entirely. After at least 6-9 months of successfully working with no problems within those restrictions, the committee is more likely to look favourably on a further relaxation of restrictions or removing them entirely.
When you make that request (and don't make it shortly after midnight on the 1st) I suggest you focus on what you want to do, specifically, not what broad categories of material you might have worked on. "Sexuality" is a very broad topic, so there is scope for narrowing it. Identify something specific that you want to improve that is on the edge of the "Sexuality" topic area and propose a rewording of the article topic ban that leaves the core area you were sanctioned for within the scope but allows you to edit your proposed borderline articles. Propose also the addition of a second clause to the image ban along the lines of "excluding images directly related to X", where X is the article topic area you want to work on.
Once you have decided what you want to work on, get some edits to a related area that is outside the scope of the topic ban but which is adjacent to it. For example if you want to improve the coverage of living openly gay UK MPs, first improve an article like Nicholas Eden, 2nd Earl of Avon (died 1985, so clearly not a BLP subject), but make sure you don't work with images for the article. Thryduulf (talk) 11:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Fæ: the best way to ask about a specific exemption is to explicitly ask for a specific exemption. You certainly wont get one if you ask for a complete removal of the restrictions. Regarding the statue, it would not a BLP by any stretch of the imagination so you don't need permission to create the article without an image.
- Reading only the two links you give, the statue isn't obviously related to sexuality and if it isn't then presuming nobody in your images is being sexual around/with the statue in your images then I personally don't see any issue with you adding, discussing and creating images on the article (non-sexual images of a statue unrelated to sexuality are not "images related to sexuality" however broadly construed). If the statue is related to sexuality, or if its connection is uncertain, then in your shoes I would have asked for a clarification about whether dealing with images of the statue on the article about the statue was covered by the topic ban or not (appeals are limited, good faith requests for clarification are not). If the answer is no, then you're good to go with no worries and no exemption needed. If the answer is yes you could have asked for a specific exemption at that point if the committee hadn't proposed one themselves - I've seen before responses along the lines of "yes this is included in the scope of the ban, but we didn't intend it to be, so we'll amend it/clarify/provide a specific exemption", the Argentine History case comes to mind as a recent example.
- I'm sorry to say however that the way you have approached this amendment request means that the committee are unlikely to be minded to consider such a request at the moment. That doesn't stop you creating the article now and leaving the images to someone else. Thryduulf (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Fæ: (7 Jan) I think it's worth noting that, at least in my mind, there are three sorts of BLPs when it comes to sexuality. There are biographies of people whose notability is primarily or entirely related to their sexuality or sexuality more generally (e.g. Peter Tatchell) and those articles you should not edit at all (imo), although there is no restriction on you linking to these articles where relevant (if the edit your making isn't restricted for another reason). Then there are people whose notability whose notability is entirely irrelevant to sexuality (e.g Michael Rose (British Army officer)) - those articles you are free to edit with no restriction. Thirdly there are people whose sexuality is notable but incidentally so, or where sexuality is only part of the reason for their notability (e.g. Sandi Toksvig). You can edit the parts of those articles that are not related to sexuality, as long as you don't introduce elements related to sexuality.
- Regarding your comments about WMUK, that is not true at all. There is nothing stopping you delivering a programme related to LGBT issues that are not BLPs, nor one with outcomes on any Wikimedia project other than the English Wikipedia (there are lots to choose from). It also doesn't stop you developing a program where others deliver parts related to BLPs on the English Wikipedia. I am perfectly willing and capable (availability dependent) to work on an LGBT project for example, and as was noted when this came up a few months back on the WMUK wiki, I am not alone. FUD will not get your restrictions lifted sooner. Thryduulf (talk) 11:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment by Nick-D
At the risk of seeming rude/ungrateful Fæ, I'd suggest that the uploads to Commons you highlight in your request have had an undue emphasis on quantity over quality. I've recently been working with some of the IWM images you uploaded of British naval operations off Norway, and the fact that they were all uploaded as "File:The Royal Navy during the Second World War" followed by the relevant IWM catalogue number made them difficult to use. The minimal categorisation of the images you've been uploading also do not contribute to these images ever actually being used (for instance, you originally placed these IWM images in only the very broad "Royal Naval photographer" category, and images of aircraft you uploaded in November were placed only in a category for the airport, and not the plane type/serial number which is typically a much more useful classification). While your work in uploading all these images is clearly very valuable and contributed to "my" most recent FA (Operation Tungsten) and what I hope will be my next GA (Operation Mascot), the lack of basic follow through with categorisation to encourage their use raises some concerns in my mind (quite possibly unfairly) about how carefully you'd edit BLPs as it is suggestive of an attitude of prioritising "adding stuff" over "adding useful stuff". In short, I'd suggest that as part of the next unban request you be in a stronger position to demonstrate the quality of your contributions, and not just the quantity of them. Nick-D (talk) 11:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fae, you're still frequently uploading images without any or without useful categories. For instance (selected more or less at random from the last few days) File:Retired German air force Maj. Gen. Hermann Wachter, at podium, deputy director of the George C. Marshall European Center for Security Studies, speaks during the Marshall Center's 20th anniversary commemoration 130612-D-SK857-334.jpg (only category is a red link), File:U.S. Navy Adm. James A. Winnefeld, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, speaks at the 2013 Joint Women's Leadership Symposium at the Gaylord National Resort and Convention Center in National Harbor, Md 130606-D-HU462-074.jpg (originally uploaded with tags asking others to look for categories despite this depicting a notable person), File:U.S. Army Command Sgt. Maj. Greg Miller, left, assigned to the 184th Ordnance Battalion (Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD)), Combined Joint Task Force Paladin, poses for a photograph with his son Spc. Grant 130616-D-EN552-835.jpg (image of a probably notable person categorised only to where the photo was taken and with the image not rotated so that it's upright) and File:U.S. Navy chief petty officers assigned to the aircraft carrier Pre-Commissioning Unit Gerald R. Ford (CVN 78) talk to petty officers first class selected for promotion to chief petty officers at the Navy 130813-N-HZ247-462.jpg (no categories at all). I acknowledge that many of the other images you've uploaded have had useful categories added from the get go, but it's not consistent. Nick-D (talk) 11:05, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fæ, The reason I raised this is that you cited your Commons activity as a major factor supporting your application to have the restrictions here lifted. In my view your upload practices there actually reflect poorly on you (especially in regards to taking care with getting small but important details right and following up after the event to correct mistakes and/or improve the quality of your contributions), and so do not really support this application. Nick-D (talk) 23:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment by Wnt
During the arbitration I commented that people interpreting outing policy focused too much on whether personal information was literally secret, as opposed to whether "opposition research" bringing it up at every opportunity was improper. My argument was rejected at the time, yet ArbCom has since changed course - ironically enough, in regard to someone with an opposing opinion during the Fae arbitration - finding that unduly focusing on another user's personal information was indeed highly inappropriate.[21] I might even say that decision has gone too far the other way. Given the decisive change in how this policy is interpreted, I think it is quite appropriate to consider an early end to a topic ban based on it. Wnt (talk) 07:13, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Statement by {other user}
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
- Per the unblock request, the topic bans may be appealed after 1 year - that is 12 March 2014. So, I'd not change anything for now. I am pleased that you haven't run into similar troubles since the arbitration case, but in March I would expect a little more evidence (here or on other Wikimedia projects) that you are unlikely to run into the difficulties that lead to the case. The fact that you've made less than 100 edits to Wikipedia since being unblocked gives me very little to go on, and I'm not active at the other projects to look at how you're doing. WormTT(talk) 10:24, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just on the 4 topics that Fae has raised - I disagree with NYB that (1) falls clearly within the restriction. However, care must be exercised when looking at such articles as they may well have BLP elements - Fae should avoid these elements. On (2), care should be paramount, so I should hope this is a rare situation. As long the article is legitimately created without knowledge of the sexuality aspect and Fae does not adding anything with regard to the sexuality aspect of such people when it's discovered, I would not expect any sanction. (3) and (4) seem fine to me. Agree with NYB's latest comment regarding the grey area, and it would be best for you to leave those parts alone. Also I have no issue with clarifications at this time.WormTT(talk) 11:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- Recused. AGK [•] 12:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree with Worm. Too early, and while this request explains why you would like the topic bans lifted, there really isn't any indication of why it would be in the best interest of the project and/or why we should not expect to see a repeat of past problems. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:24, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just like to re-emphasize that no matter what arguments you make this is still premature and in my opinion should not even be considered at this time. Frankly, filing such a request on New Year's Day smacks strongly of "asking the other parent." Beeblebrox (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- That being said, I do not find the underlying request compelling regardless of when it was submitted and it seems to me there is little appetite for considering this particular request, now or in March. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just like to re-emphasize that no matter what arguments you make this is still premature and in my opinion should not even be considered at this time. Frankly, filing such a request on New Year's Day smacks strongly of "asking the other parent." Beeblebrox (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- Firstly, this request is premature. Secondly, if I was to consider a relaxation of the topic bans (at the present time) I would want to see a specific, narrow scope request. I'm not sure I'd support such a request, but if I was to consider anything I would want a much more specific/narrow scoped request, with a specific reason. I know you do good work on Commons and elsewhere, but this request is undoubtedly premature, and hence I'd rather not change anything for now. NativeForeigner Talk 06:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with NYB regarding dates, as this seems to now be a clarification. Three and four look reasonable to edit. Two will require significant caution. Still thinking on one. NativeForeigner Talk 16:48, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think 1) is very borderline. It's not squarely within the restriction per se, but in editing it it may be extremely easy to fall within the boundaries of BLP. I'd exercise caution, and if there are other topics available, it might be best to focus on those. NativeForeigner Talk 18:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
- Speaking for myself only, I do not have a problem with considering this request in January rather than in March, and Fae has provided some explanation for the timing of his request (although posting it the very day the new arbitrators started was a mistake). I think the serious issue with this request is that historically there have been issues with Fae's image uploads and edits concerning the sexuality of living persons. I would therefore consider a modification of the topic-ban that would allow him to contribute images in clearly historical contexts, but not images relating to living (or recently deceased) persons. I am unwilling at this time to remove the restriction against sexuality-related editing on BLPs. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- I ask that Fae please respond to Thryduulf's observations above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:43, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'll address the four categories raised by Fae tomorrow. Thank you for outlining them. Wnt's comments strike me as an irrelevant digression. Newyorkbrad (talk) 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fae, your categories (3) and (4) strike me as not being prohibited by the restriction. Items in category (2) should also be okay, provided you don't edit a sexuality-related part of the article. Category (1) probably falls within the restriction so I suggest you focus more on the other categories. apply. I hope it is unnecessary for me to urge you to stay far away from edge cases, point-making, and boundary testing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- User:Fae, as I think about it, if you were to avoid references to living persons' sexuality in category (1) articles, the restriction would not apply. A closer question is whether the restriction would apply if you wrote "John Smith is the President of X group," where X group is (e.g.) an LGBT rights organization, but you don't mention Smith's own sexuality. I should probably step back now and let other arbitrators comment on your categories (my view still being that as you are seeking to clarify rather than amend the restrictions, the date issue does not arise). Newyorkbrad (talk) 11:16, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- Broadly agree with what other arbitrators have said so far. Fae, there is good advice being given by Thryduulf and Nick-D. If you follow that advice then I would be more likely to support a future amendment request. If you seek a less broad amendment request earlier than the date suggested by other arbitrators (12 March), I suggest a preliminary note asking whether such a request should be made or should be held back until 12 March (or some point thereafter). Carcharoth (talk) 03:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- I generally agree with the above, both that the request is premature at this time, and that when it is the time, I would be much more comfortable with a gradual scaling back of sanctions than a wholesale removal. I would encourage Fae to think about what shape such a scaling back would entail, and also to show more non-problematic editing activity outside the banned areas. Sexuality may be a broad area, but it is not all-encompassing, and there are many areas in which to edit with no risk of falling foul of the ban. I also agree with Newyorkbrad in that the BLP sanctions are the ones I would be least comfortable with lifting. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- We should either enforce time limits on appeals, or stop including them in our decisions. I prefer the former approach. Decline. (I'm also not inclined to grant this appeal on the merits, for the reasons outlined by my colleagues.) T. Canens (talk) 15:09, 4 January 2014 (UTC)