→Statement by Bishonen: You ''should'' address the merits of the protection here. |
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I do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here, unless asked to by an arbitrator, because I think that ought only to be discussed in response to a proper appeal (if any) by The Rambling Man at [[WP:AE]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 17:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC) |
I do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here, unless asked to by an arbitrator, because I think that ought only to be discussed in response to a proper appeal (if any) by The Rambling Man at [[WP:AE]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 17:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:Bishonen: You did not ask me for my reasons before unilaterally reverting my talk page protection, so I think you are in no position to ask for them now. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 18:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC) |
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=== Statement by Bishonen === |
=== Statement by Bishonen === |
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You "do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here", Sandstein? Discussing the block may be best kept for a response to a block appeal, OK, but why are you bundling the protection in with it? You ''should'' address the merits of the protection here, in view of the questions you're asking about my unprotection. You ought to explain ''why'' you thought protection was the right thing to do, especially as compared to the alternative of revoking talkpage access. You haven't explained that anywhere AFAICS — not on TRM's page, or my page, or the AN discussion. Now's your chance. It's ridiculous IMO to discuss the formalities you describe above without even addressing what the protection was ''for''. I don't intend to take part in such a discussion. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC). |
You "do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here", Sandstein? Discussing the block may be best kept for a response to a block appeal, OK, but why are you bundling the protection in with it? You ''should'' address the merits of the protection here, in view of the questions you're asking about my unprotection. You ought to explain ''why'' you thought protection was the right thing to do, especially as compared to the alternative of revoking talkpage access. You haven't explained that anywhere AFAICS — not on TRM's page, or my page, or the AN discussion. Now's your chance. It's ridiculous IMO to discuss the formalities you describe above without even addressing what the protection was ''for''. I don't intend to take part in such a discussion. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC). |
Revision as of 18:03, 6 March 2017
Requests for clarification and amendment
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2)
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 16:59, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- BU Rob13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- SoWhy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by BU Rob13
See the conversation surrounding Regularization Bill here. Multiple administrators have interpreted the most recent change to WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 to mean that extended confirmed protection should only be used on articles in the topic area if edits by new editors or IPs come from multiple sources, are frequent, and are sustained (as we would do for normal disruption). Having been around for the last ARCA, this was plainly not the intent. As Guerillero said last time around "The ban is not optional." Please clarify that the first method of enforcement should be ECP, with other alternatives more suitable to instances where an editor is editing across many articles or where ECP is otherwise not effective or sufficient. ~ Rob13Talk 16:59, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Just noting the last (and most recent) discussion posted below by NeilN closed with consensus to protect pages as soon as the restriction is violated, but not before. That's all I'm asking for clarification in favor here - that the pages should be protected if the restriction is violated. ~ Rob13Talk 17:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- I fully agree, Kevin. There's a sharp difference between declining to action something and declining a request so that no other admin actions it, though. ~ Rob13Talk 07:42, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Kirill Lokshin: Can you clarify whether the restriction is mandatory or not? If it is, can you clarify what valid edit is omitted by ECP protecting an article? I really struggle to understand the logic in blocking an editor when protection would suffice and the protection has zero false positives by construction. ARBPIA#500/30 places ECP protection in the form of a behavioral restriction (rather than a technical restriction) on all ARBPIA articles. Regardless of intent, failing to protect an article in response to disruption weakens the restriction and allows editors not allowed to edit in the topic area to edit that article in the future. Again, no-one is saying we hold a gun to an admin's head and force them to protect. We're just saying they shouldn't take an admin action and actually decline protection when it would act as a simple enforcement of the ArbCom remedy. ~ Rob13Talk 22:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- @NeilN: But this remedy doesn't say protect articles to prevent disruption (which is covered by the protection policy) or jump up some levels via discretion (which is covered by active discretionary sanctions). It's a prohibition, full stop. Zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors are allowed in this topic area. If we really just intend to allow discretion, which I'm not against, then drop this remedy and rely on DS. We shouldn't have an unenforced prohibition on the books, though. Its confusing. ~ Rob13Talk 15:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- It just falls back on admin discretion, which is covered by DS. I agree limiting disruption is the goal, but if we want to back away from the heavy-handed prohibition to allow discretion, we should rescind the prohibition and make that clear. Saying "We're prohibiting this but not really" isn't good policy writing. ~ Rob13Talk 16:14, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- Can any arbitrator explain to me how "We have a prohibition, but admins don't have to enforce it and can actively decline requests to enforce it." is any different than "We have discretionary sanctions, which allow discretionary ECP protection, and admins are encouraged to make liberal use of it."? The latter is certainly more clear. ~ Rob13Talk 15:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- Would it be appropriate for editors in the ARBPIA area to make their requests for page protection at AE instead of RFPP? One of the issues here, as I see it, is admins applying the typical "protection policy" mentality to this remedy, whereas this remedy is wholly distinct from our protection policy. Perhaps moving such requests to AE would be wise. ~ Rob13Talk 20:45, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Whether or not it's noted as a change to remedy, the mentality toward ARBPIA3#500/30 shown here is a change. The restriction has worked because it's been enforced whenever an IP editor/new editor has edited an article within the topic area with indefinite ECP. That has been the practice from Day 1 that ECP was implemented until now, and I believe there's been subtantially less disruption in the topic area since the advent of ECP than under the restriction before that, which is quite a good differential to see what effect indefinite ECP has had. This new interpretation of the remedy is the change you seek to avoid making in the absence of a rationale for doing so. This is the first time ever that I've seen an administrator decline this type of protection, and if other admins follow suit in enforcing the remedy only in cases of sustained and severe disruption, we can expect the "minor" disruption to get through. If we're already changing the interpretation of the remedy and how its enforced, we might as well change the wording as well to make things clear. ~ Rob13Talk 23:16, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- As an aside, as an excellent illustration of what happens when we don't extended confirmed protect articles in this topic area, Regulation Law (the article whose protection request started this) was edited by a block evading editor. I've now enforced the restriction with indefinite ECP. ~ Rob13Talk 00:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Whether we should ECP protect articles that IPs edit in a topic area where they're prohibited from editing isn't a corner case. It's the entire set of cases. I'm still not 100% clear on why the Committee is resistant to handling this whole issue here (...should I open an ARCA about modifying the restriction directly below at the same time? how is it helpful to split discussion?). You're describing discretionary sanctions but continuing to preserve a prohibition. I'll continue enforcing the remedy as written until it's changed, because it's unfair to new editors to have unwritten rules and exceptions that they're unaware of and can't hope to understand. It's better to say "Clear this bar and you can edit in this area" than "Clear this bar and you won't be harassed by other editors, but until then, we may or may not bother you regardless of the quality of your edits. Good luck." ~ Rob13Talk 20:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SoWhy
The current wording of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is
“ | All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters. | ” |
— WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 (emphasis added) |
Neither this wording nor the two previous ones (which explicitly used "may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters") contains a rule that ECP has to be used to enforce the prohibition, just that it's preferred. In this case there was only one editor who could have been dealt with individually, without the need to lock down the page.
That said, I have no particular opinion on the topic itself and I'd be fine if WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 was clarified to read "has to be enforced". Regards SoWhy 18:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: The current consensus (cf. the links NeilN provided and also at the recent AN/I thread) seems to be that ECP should be used "liberally but not automatically" (to borrow Airplaneman's phrase) when it comes to this particular topic ban, i. e. iff there has been a disruption. At the time of the protection request, the article in question was newly created by a relatively new user and then stubyfied without a disruption in sight. The new user in this case didn't know about the ArbCom ruling and edited in good faith as far I can tell, so it was not a violation and thus no need to apply ECP. If the Committee believes this particular motion should apply to all articles, even before disruption happened, then yes, clarification is required since the current wording allows the interpretation we have seen become consensus (and which I based my decision on). And if your strict interpretation is to be the correct one, ArbCom should just protect all such pages preemptively and be done with it. But since they haven't done so in the past, it was a reasonable assumption by myself (and many others) that ArbCom didn't want to demolish the third pillar before disruption actually occurs. Regards SoWhy 21:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Kevin: So basically what you are saying is "admins are not robots but in such cases they have to behave like robots"? So why not make it easier? Let's just create a subpage that anyone with extendedconfirmed userrights can edit and where people can list articles that should be protected and an adminbot will just apply EC protection to all entries on that list. Regards SoWhy 18:51, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- As for the comments that there is a difference between declining and not doing something, please keep in mind that any admin patrolling WP:RFPP only decides based on the page as it presents itself at this time. It's not wheel-warring if another admin protects a page later on when later edits justify it. Thus declining to take action when a single good-faith editor without knowledge of the restrictions creates an article does not mean that the page cannot be protected later on if disruption occurs.
That said, I personally think the Committee should reconsider the prohibition altogether and I agree with DeltaQuad that it would work much better as a discretionary sanction. I understand the need to limit participation from certain high-conflict articles but the blanket ban currently in effect violates our fundamental principles, i. e. that this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit and that any restrictions should only be enforced if no alternative represents itself. Plus, as DQ points out, a DS would be more useful in keeping track of the disruptive patterns. Regards SoWhy 07:31, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: I disagree that the discussion about the validity of this restriction should need a new ARCA request. DeltaQuad has already pointed out, quite eloquently, that there have already been far too many ARCAs concerning this topic, so why force a new discussion? Evidently the current restriction is problematic and de facto unnecessary since an extended DS would serve the same purpose with the additional benefit, as DQ points out, of changing the venue to WP:AE which is where such requests actually should be decided anyway. Even if the Committee declines to take such action at this time, it should at least consider the last point, i.e. changing the venue to WP:AE for all such requests since WP:RFPP does not log actions and the log at WP:AN is only showing the newest protections (and not just those relating to this restriction). Regards SoWhy 13:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- I can only agree with MusikAnimal's comments. I think when the restriction was created and reworded, the fundamental principle of "anyone can edit" was essentially abandoned by those who interpret it quite literally. Kirill Lokshin wrote in his comment that "the committee's position is that, in general, enhanced protection should be the first line of defense" in these cases. I think it's important to emphasize the "defense" part. Yes, 30/500 can be used to defend an article against those who wish to corrupt it with their POV-pushing, vandalism or other discouraged behavior. But it should not be used preemptively when nothing has actually happened and especially not to punish those new or seldom editing users who follow all the rules.
- I myself have deleted over 8000 pages and protected nearly 800 (probably handling thrice as many requests at RFPP), so I'm certainly not someone who believes that "anyone can edit" means "do what you want". But it does look like this restriction has been misused as a tool by some established editors to lock down as many articles as possible so that new editors can't edit them. And since only very few will take the time to become extended confirmed after the treatment MusikAnimal describes, it means that the pool of editors working on those articles will shrink constantly, thus hurting the whole project. Regards SoWhy 19:22, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by NeilN
Past admin discussions:
- Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection/Archive_8#WP:ARBPIA3_and_protection
- Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection/Archive_9#AE_protection_requests
- Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection#Mass_request_on_pages_related_to_Arab-Israeli_conflict.28s.29
--NeilN talk to me 17:12, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Admins are supposed to use their best judgement when enforcing various policies, guidelines, and rulings and I don't see why this should be an exception. 500/30 is a means to an end, and not the actual goal. Repeating the wording here, "All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict." So let's say we have a BLP of an author who, along with other works, has written a controversial book on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Every so often IP editors come in and disrupt the section of the BLP that covers the book and its reception. Can the page be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Yes. But why should we immediately use the sledgehammer of 500/30 when semi or PC could suffice, allowing new/IP editors to constructively update the BLP? --NeilN talk to me 20:37, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
To address the concerns above perhaps change
- This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters.
to
- This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not optimal, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters.
Generally, admins are supposed to use the least-restrictive form of protection feasible to start with. 500/30 allows us to skip a few levels in certain topic areas. For example, if Palestine Liberation Organization was unprotected we can immediately apply 500/30, skipping over PC and semi, as that's the optimal solution. For other pages, 500/30 may not be optimal. Admins can apply it without enduring a barrage of criticism but can choose a lesser form of protection if that will stop current and anticipated future disruption just as well. --NeilN talk to me 15:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
BU Rob13, zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors in this topic area is not the goal; it is the preferred method to stop the disruption in this topic area (which is the actual goal). The current (or my proposed) wording makes it clear that 500/30 (i.e., zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors) is the preferred method to use to achieve that goal. --NeilN talk to me 15:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I agree with BU Rob13 that this isn't a corner case. However I think Arbcom's intent was to clean up editing in this area by making it easier for admins to skip a few steps ordinarily mandated by protection policy. If you don't want admins to use their judgement about when to skip these steps then I could see ECP easily spreading to articles like the BLP example I proposed above. --NeilN talk to me 20:40, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by L235
Admins ≠ page protection robots. The restriction is mandatory to follow, and anyone may enforce it, but no one is required to – in the same way that, for example, WP:V is policy and mandatory, but no individual editor is required to enforce it by finding sources for any article they happen to notice bad sourcing on. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 03:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
A decline per ARBPIA3 makes no sense there. If yall want to say that this is like WP:V in which it is mandatory but nobody is required to enforce it then fine, but then dont also specifically get in the way of somebody else enforcing it. A good faith page protection request should be enough to trigger the protection. It means that the sanction has been violated on that specific page and that ECP would prevent further violations. Declining it on the basis of a decision that says it is the preferable method to deal with violations makes zero sense. If an admin would rather not protect the page then fine, dont, but dont also decline the request, just ignore it and allow somebody willing to deal with it to do so. nableezy - 04:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph
If the whole article can be reasonably construed to be under ARBPIA, then ECP should be applied when asked. After all, ECP protection would only mean that those who can't edit, won't edit. If the article is not under ARBPIA and only sections of it are, then that is where the individual edit can be reverted, etc. I don't get the declining protection on a page when the page is clearly part of ARBPIA and ECP blocked people can't edit regardless. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Guerillero
I seem to have been pinged about this. I don't have any strong feeling about this rememdy except for some remorse for being the open who opened Pandora's Box. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:06, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MusikAnimal
I have very strong feelings about this, so let me first apologize for my tone. My sentiments are not targeted at any admins or the Arbitration Committee. We all want what's best for the project, so let me share what I think is best.
It is in my opinion preposterous and irresponsible to preemptively protect articles that have experienced little or no disruption, in direct conflict with the protection policy. Wikipedia is supposed to be open. Sure we get vandalism and POV pushers, but that's a natural consequence of a wiki and we can deal with it on a case by case basis. Any sort of blanket editing "prohibition" is contrary to the entire point of Wikipedia. What's worse about ARBPIA is we protect indefinitely. The idea is to use the shortest effective duration and lowest effective protection level, yet we for some reason are ignoring that philosophy entirely. I'm sorry but this infuriates me.
Let's assume there was no disruption at all on a given article, and in fact constructive editing from new users – do you then actually feel accomplished in applying indefinite protection, limiting editing to experienced editors? Do you really feel like you were doing the right thing by shutting out users who were helping? Are you OK with the idea that those editors may give up on the project? Think about that. Also, what if a new user creates a well-written article that falls under ARBPIA – We're going to immediately protect it? Are we meant to delete it? How do you think the editor feels about that? How would you feel if that happened to you? What if you were someone who simply is a big fan of Israel in general, and you find you can't edit most of the articles you want to edit? What would be your opinion of Wikipedia? Would you still want to be a part of the community?
Of course sometimes 30/500 does make sense, but that doesn't seem to be the case with most ARBPIA requests I see at RFPP. What's wrong with a brief semi if it does the job just as well? Use your judgement, ignore the rules... put the encyclopedia and the free knowledge movement first.
Maybe we should do some analysis and see how many constructive edit requests there are to these preemptively protected pages. It may shed some idea on the collateral damage we are causing. However I'm sure most newbies won't add edit requests, but simply give up.
Overall I'm going to have to be very stubborn about this. If others want to play the blanket "you can't edit this page" game, I'm not going to fight them, and I won't decline any RFPP requests, but I for one refuse to protect pages or rollback constructive edits merely because other related topics had at some point in the past experienced considerable disruption. No thanks, WP:IAR all day long for me. All articles deserve the same fair chance at openness. It's one thing to do the one-revert rule, impose discretionary sanctions, etc., but you should use caution and sane judgement with admin actions that affect innocent editors. The point of protection is to prevent disruption, not prevent progress... — MusikAnimal talk 05:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'd like to also point out that on these ARBPIA articles that aren't protected, some people are reverting edits by users who are not extended confirmed – even if it was constructive. It is very difficult for me to sit back and watch this, and I can't fathom why you would think this is OK. If you wouldn't normally revert it then please, don't. Just don't. This is arguably worse than preemptive protection. With protection the editor never had a chance to try to edit constructively. Here the editor volunteered their time and effort, and you're knowingly removing their work. Take away the ARBPIA stuff and this can be blockable behaviour. Why is it all of a sudden acceptable? Surely you understand why it is unfair? These are not banned editors... their contributions carry the same weight as the next guy. I'm not necessarily saying the entire ARBPIA 30/500 restriction should be lifted, but if not doing so means we continue to punish innocent editors then yes, it should be lifted. The issue it seems is that people are looking at this ArbCom ruling and taking it literally, reverting any non-ECP editor. How is this is not a problem? My feelings here regarding edits differ from the protection in that I would have to feel inclined to intervene if it makes sense to do so. If I see you've reverted a clear improvement, merely because they don't meet the 30/500 threshold, barring an edit war I will have to kindly restore the content. I don't need policy or ArbCom rulings to tell me not to, and the same goes for page protection. The revision history tells you if protection is needed, just like the diff of an edit tells you whether or not it should be reverted. Right? Again, I apologize for being so stubborn, but surely you see why I would favour WP:5P3, WP:5P4 and especially WP:5P5. We should not be attempting to override or undermine the very fundamental principles that have made Wikipedia a success... — MusikAnimal talk 21:41, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: The ruling advocating for 30/500 happened before it was implemented. And sure, many of these articles need ECP, without question. However as I said, this doesn't seem usually be the case at RFPP. What here suggests semi won't work? It will require some digging, but you'll find good edits from non-EC users. What about here? Note the now blocked extended-confirmed sock that was undoing those good anon edits. This one still isn't protected, and hasn't received one bad edit. Or here? I see lots of good and very little bad over the article's 12-year history. I just don't think we should feel like "automatic" protection should be a thing when it clearly is not only unhelpful but detrimental. I'm not that familiar with ArbCom process but doesn't a "clarification and amendment" mean it can be amended? At the very least perhaps we could ask editors not unconditionally undo good edits just because they think the article falls under ARBPIA. Instead, report to RFPP and let an admin decide. Good edits should stay, regardless of who made them. A "clause" saying this will go a long way, methinks. It's easy for us to impose a blanket "can't edit" restriction but we're not newbies, whom we teach to be bold and follow the fundamental five pillars. They're left hanging scratching their heads, wondering what this is all about when they thought they were helping. Then we link them WP:ARBPIA3 and expect them to read it? I'm all about protecting articles when the need is there, whatever we have to do to stop disruption, but don't go against our core philosophy and knowingly put a stop to good contributions when there is zero evidence to the contrary — MusikAnimal talk 19:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion
- No individual administrator is required to enforce a particular arbitration decision, whether or not that decision provides for administrative discretion as regards the specific means of enforcement. In this case, we've deliberately left the choice of how to enforce the 500/30 editing restriction up to the enforcing administrators' discretion; while the committee's position is that, in general, enhanced protection should be the first line of defense here, we're not going to second-guess administrators who choose to utilize one of the other enforcement mechanisms absent some credible evidence that those administrators are doing so to deliberately undermine our decision. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 20:34, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with NeilN and Kirill on this. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:06, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Kirill said it well. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Agree with Kirill Lokshin. Mkdw talk 00:54, 15 February 2017 (UTC)- Me too. Drmies (talk) 05:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- Can an Arbitrator please clarify to me what the Wikipedia definition of prohibition is? It's not matching the English language definition of the word. I agree with NeilN's view on what the intended effect SHOULD be, but we are purposefully undermining ourselves saying these edits are prohibited, but you don't have to enforce it. What then is a point of a prohibition? We could just take a page out of our history books from Prohibition in the United States#Weak Enforcement.
- Right now what I am hearing is that arbitrators do not want full prohibition. Fine, lets not make it that then, but lets make some sense. Without a full prohibition, this is honestly a very strong extended DS. This would work a lot better as an extended DS too as it actually gets logged so we can figure out where the disruption is coming from and better react to requests to change our enforcement methods on this.
- Anything short of a change, and administrators are in violation of the remedy by not applying 500/30, especially after an IP has edited a page. To be clear, I wouldn't enact any sanction on such an administrator, but why make it an issue in the first place?
- When this remedy was first in place, we did not have the 500/30 protection available to us, and an arbitrator called it something along the lines of an effective semi-protection over the pages. Now that we have 500/30 protection available which can be used as a discretionary sanction, is there a point to even continue having this restriction in place? This still affects a large amount of contributors who have good faith intent in the topic area. We are up to this now being the 11th ARCA on the matter, and 3rd potential motion. We need to fix this to something that makes some sense. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 08:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- DeltaQuad, I see the prohibition in this case as similar to the old practice of criminal outlawry: participation by a non-500/30 editor on the affected topic is effectively deemed "illegal", and anyone may prevent or undo it using any means at their disposal—but, short of actually assisting the editor in evading the restriction (which is prohibited), no individual is required to act against them, or to act against them in any particular way. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- That's a reasonable way of describing it, but I think the point being raised is a little bit different: if declining a public request for ECP is an "admin action", then that's different than simply not taking action because it puts a barrier in the way of other admins who might want to act. To continue the analogy, you can ignore the outlaw, or arrest him, but in this case the action is more like standing in the town square saying "I am not arresting that outlaw". Publicly declining a request for admin action is more-or-less an admin action, under the AE principle, and someone else coming along to take the action that's just been declined puts themselves at risk of wheel-warring accusations. (I'd say speeding is a better analogy, and letting someone off with a warning instead of a ticket doesn't actually mean there's suddenly no speed limits anymore.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: Yeah, I don't mean to suggest that decisions made later after a change of circumstances would be "wheel-warring". I don't really even mean to legitimize the possible accusations of it for "overturning" a non-action without any change of circumstances. I'm just trying to describe the pitfalls of responding to this request with "well, nobody's required to act". Proposing that the restriction be lifted should go in a separate request IMO. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- DeltaQuad, I see the prohibition in this case as similar to the old practice of criminal outlawry: participation by a non-500/30 editor on the affected topic is effectively deemed "illegal", and anyone may prevent or undo it using any means at their disposal—but, short of actually assisting the editor in evading the restriction (which is prohibited), no individual is required to act against them, or to act against them in any particular way. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- This seems like a bit of a "missing the forest for the trees" issue. The purpose of the restriction was to cut down on disruption in this topic area caused by socks, POV-pushers, and good-faith but inexperienced editors who need time to become acquainted with the project before diving into such a difficult subject. As far as I can tell, it's working fairly well for that purpose. At least, we've seen very few issues reach the arbcom level that were actually about disruptive editing. However, we're now seeing many many questions about the logistics of managing the restriction. In this instance, I don't see that the last clarification lacks, um, clarity ;) It's "preferably" enforced by ECP, but different admins may have different preferences in different situations. It is entirely normal that enforcement of a restriction might not be 100% perfectly consistent every time and yet retain its intended effect. I think the best solution is to worry less about the corner cases unless they've clearly caused problems. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13 and SoWhy: "Why ask for a new discussion" is mostly just organizational, so a consideration of loosening the restriction gets filed under its own header, gets noticed by watchers and attracts comments specifically on that topic, etc. (To be honest I hate the way ARCA is organized and archived, and I find archived ones hard to read when there's a lot of topic drift.) As for the AE thing, I don't really see the advantage - AE is structured to be a slower and more commentary-based venue. Are people looking specifically for a log of PIA-related ECPs? As far as I can tell, what we're doing now is working. It's more important that the remedy be effective than that it be perfect. If it works 99% of the time, then cleaning up the edge cases to catch the last 1% isn't really worth the investment. My preference is to do nothing unless there's empirical evidence that changes are needed. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- @MusikAnimal and SoWhy: As I understand it - not having been on the committee at the time - the problem was that the topic area had become so clogged with socks and POV-pushers that it was no longer possible to get much real editing done because of all the time and effort and goodwill being soaked up by behavior issues. The benefit of the restriction is that it is no longer necessary to invest time in evaluating each individual "new" editor's contributions to judge whether they're socking or block-evading or well-meaning but clueless. It is also arguably less bitey to tell a well-intentioned new editor "that topic area is restricted, but if you get some experience elsewhere, you can edit there later" than to greet them with suspicions and possibly outright accusations of socking, and similarly better to revert their newbish edits because of a general restriction than because they've been judged low-quality. There may be an argument for modifying the restriction - and MusikAnimal, real data is always great - but this ARCA isn't an argument about modifying it; it's about best practice in the mechanism of enforcement in a corner case. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:01, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't pay attention to this for a few days and figured I'd come back to it with fresh eyes later, since a bunch of very sensible people have said they think there's a problem to be solved here. However, I'm still not seeing one. Maybe this is an example of the upside of arbcom not getting involved in its own enforcement (because it's easier that way to take the 50,000-foot view) or maybe it's the downside (because we get out of touch with common practice). But I still don't see a reason we should be second-guessing individual instances in which an admin exercises the relatively limited discretion they have by the existing wording of the restriction. The original 30/500 decision was implemented in late 2015, and ECP was rolled out last spring, so we have enough experience now to judge if any changes need to be made, if someone were interested in gathering data. I still think that should be its own filing, not a side issue arising from an old thread about a related topic that nobody but the participants is reading anymore :) Changing the restriction would have a sufficiently broad scope that IMO an ARCA request specifically on that topic would benefit from wider exposure. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Clarification request: The Rambling Man
Initiated by Sandstein at 17:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Bishonen notified, 17:31, 6 March 2017
Statement by Sandstein
Yesterday I blocked The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) in response to an AE request and then protected their user talk page, as provided for in the decision: "The enforcing administrator may also at their discretion fully protect The Rambling Man's talk page for the duration of the block." Bishonen subsequently reverted that protection without any attempt at discussion with me. She has also declined to act on my request to undo her unprotection.
I initially considered this to be a disallowed unilateral reversion of an AE action, but there is a nuance that gives me pause, which is why I am filing this as a clarification request and not as a request for sanctions against Bishonen:
I did mark the talk page protection as an AE action, but it does not appear to be a "sanction" as this term is commonly understood, which is why I did not initially log it. But the Committee's procedures tell us that "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator", without indicating whether AE actions such as talk page protections count as sanctions. Moreover, the rules about appeals, etc. "apply only to discretionary sanctions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorised by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature." This seems to leave ambiguous the status of AE actions like page protections that are, as here, neither discretionary sanctions nor blocks, nor functionary actions. On the other hand, Bishonen's comment about being about to be desysopped indicates that she herself understood her reversal to be prohibited.
My main question is therefore: What, if any, prohibitions exist against unilateral reversion of AE talk page protections (or user rights removals, or other non-block AE admin actions) outside the regime of discretionary sanctions, and should the procedures be amended to remove this uncertainty?
There are also two additional questions that have come up in the, er, rambling AN thread about this matter: Does the Committee expect that there be a certain period of time in which an AE thread is left open for comment by others after the editor at which the request is directed has responded (or declined to do so); and is it problematic if the same admin who decides to act on an AE request also closes the thread? My impression is that the answer in both cases is "no" (after all, admins can take AE actions without even a request, let alone a formal closure), but perhaps I am mistaken.
I do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here, unless asked to by an arbitrator, because I think that ought only to be discussed in response to a proper appeal (if any) by The Rambling Man at WP:AE. Sandstein 17:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
- Bishonen: You did not ask me for my reasons before unilaterally reverting my talk page protection, so I think you are in no position to ask for them now. Sandstein 18:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Bishonen
You "do not intend to address the merits of the block or the talk page protection here", Sandstein? Discussing the block may be best kept for a response to a block appeal, OK, but why are you bundling the protection in with it? You should address the merits of the protection here, in view of the questions you're asking about my unprotection. You ought to explain why you thought protection was the right thing to do, especially as compared to the alternative of revoking talkpage access. You haven't explained that anywhere AFAICS — not on TRM's page, or my page, or the AN discussion. Now's your chance. It's ridiculous IMO to discuss the formalities you describe above without even addressing what the protection was for. I don't intend to take part in such a discussion. Bishonen | talk 17:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC).
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The Rambling Man: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).