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=== Race and intelligence: Arbitrator views and discussion === |
=== Race and intelligence: Arbitrator views and discussion === |
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* I haven't had a chance to look in detail at this yet, but did want to say that I'm sorry to hear about your emergency, {{u|Mathsci}}, and glad to hear you're doing better. If you want to discuss other aspects of your editing restrictions, I suggest opening a new request. On the current topic, my first reaction is to agree with NYB that this isn't really a matter that needs urgent attention and can probably be settled by both parties just ignoring each other and going about their business. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 01:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 01:23, 17 May 2016
Requests for clarification and amendment
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3
Initiated by Nableezy at 22:17, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by Nableezy
The longstanding practice on what edits are governed under the prohibitions passed as part of ARBPIA and ARBPIA2 was that it applied to all edits within the topic area, meaning pages that as a whole are a part of the topic area and any edit to them is covered (e.g. Hamas, Israeli-occupied territories ...) and individual edits that are about the topic to pages that as a whole do not fall within the topic area are also covered while edits to those pages outside of the topic are not (eg editing the Barack Obama page to edit material on his views and or actions regarding the conflict are covered but edits regarding his election to the presidency are not). The prohibition WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 however says that IP editors and named accounts with less than 500 edits/30 days of tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. That on its face leaves out edits to pages that are largely outside the topic area but edits that very much are within the topic area. I'm requesting clarification on whether both sets of edits are covered under the prohibition, and if so suggest an edit along the lines of are prohibited from making any edits that could be ... replacing are prohibited from editing any page that could be .... This came up on AE, so thought it wise to ask for clarification here. I'm not entirely sure who needs to be a party here, I just added the admin dealing with the AE complaint.
- @Kirill Lokshin: Sean's comment below has several examples, the ones I think are the least ambiguous are [1], [2], [3], and [4]. None of those articles can reasonably be said to be, as a whole, part of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area, but each of the edits unambiguously are. Maybe Ed is right and this is premature, but I'm not too concerned about that specific AE. Regardless of how that is closed I'd prefer a crystal clear prohibition one way or the other, and this seems like an easy thing to make that clear. nableezy - 16:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston
- User:Nableezy probably opened this due to some comments made in the thread at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Wikiwillkane. The AE thread is still open. At the moment it appears that the AE complaint might well be closed due to an agreement by Wikiwillkane to cease all edits in the Arab-Israeli topic area until he has reached 500 edits. In my opinion this request for clarification is premature. In the past it has been agreed by the committee that some articles are under a topic ban only in part. Whatever the decision reached about partially-banned articles, the AE can go forward anyway since several fully-banned articles are named in the diffs. EdJohnston (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The thread at AE about Wikiwillkane has now been closed with a warning against any further violations of the 500/30 rule. I am unsure whether it makes this ARCA moot or not, since I think Nableezy would like the committee to issue a general ruling. The question (I think) is whether the General 500/30 prohibition and a typical ARBPIA topic ban have the same scope. That is, they both restrict all A-I-related editing across all of Wikipedia even when the entire article (such as Roseanne Barr) is not otherwise an ARBPIA topic. In the AE I found myself rejecting the arguments by Wikiwillkane who believed that adding mention of Roseanne Barr's speech to a BDS meeting was not an A-I violation. My view was based on what I consider to be common sense. The matter is sufficiently obvious that I don't think the committee needs to pass any motion to revise the wording of the 500/30 prohibition. EdJohnston (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
Recent examples: [5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24]
- ARBCOM authorized the WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 restriction for the ARBPIA topic area as everyone knows.
- The restriction can now be implemented automatically by the server via extended confirmed protection (see WP:BLUELOCK). This automates the task of ensuring IPs and accounts that are not allowed to edit certain articles cannot edit those articles.
- Extended confirmed protection has not been rolled out across the topic area for reasons that are unclear to me at least. It has only been implemented on articles on request after the articles have been subjected to disruption. The ARBCOM authorized restriction will be enforced whether or not an article is given extended confirmed protection. If the restriction is not enforced by the server via extended confirmed protection, it will be enforced by editors. The effect will be the same but the cost is different. Extended confirmed protection automates the enforcement of a restriction that already unambiguously applies to thousands of articles.
- Extended confirmed protection is limited in the sense that it only works at the article level. So it could be argued that it can only reasonably be implemented on any page that "could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". If extended confirmed protection had been rolled out across the topic area, Wikiwillkane, an editor recently brought to AE, would not have been able to edit the Israeli-occupied territories, Palestinian political violence, Omar Barghouti and the Judea and Samaria Area articles and no one would have had to waste their time reverting them.
- Extended confirmed protection could not have prevented the creation of the Dafna Meir memorial article created for one of the 230+ victims of the latest wave of violence and the associated image copyright violations. Editors have to enforce extended confirmed protection in cases like that and they will.
- Extended confirmed protection is also not yet smart enough to help with the examples above where content unambiguously related to the Arab-Israeli conflict is added/updated/removed by people whose edits would have been rejected by the server if they had made the same edit in a protected article. The 500/30 rule needs to be implemented at the content/statement level to provide the kind of protection it is intended to provide. Any weakness will be exploited by people who lack the experience or integrity to comply with Wikipedia's rules. Editors who ignore WP:NOTADVOCATE will relentlessly exploit gaps in the protection, gaps that currently have to be plugged by people rather than the server.
Sean.hoyland - talk 13:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Nableezy, can you provide some examples of the types of edits in question? Kirill Lokshin (talk) 10:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- 500/30 applies to all edits related to the Arab-Israeli conflict (not just articles). However BLUELOCK should only be applied to pages which are related to the Arab-Israeli conflict to avoid a situation where we have Barrack Obama's article (for example) BLUELOCK'd due to a related paragraph. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:20, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
- My first instinct was that this is scope creep. In particular, there is no way of informing newer editors of this restriction before they make an edit about the topic to some seemingly entirely unrelated page. But the examples offered are so obviously inappropriate that I do think they should be covered as a matter of common sense. I would hope to see people reserve strict enforcement for unambiguous cases, though. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:17, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed with Callanecc on this one. GorillaWarfare (talk) 08:00, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Callan --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:49, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Amendment request: Race and intelligence
Initiated by Penwhale at 04:57, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#TrevelyanL85A2_topic-banned and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified by motion (September 2013)
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Penwhale (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#TrevelyanL85A2_topic-banned and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified by motion (September 2013)
- Mathsci (talk · contribs) to be indefinitely prohibited from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs); this would in essence make it a two-way IBAN between the two editors. because of the wording of the TrevelyanL85A2 TBAN.
Statement by Penwhale
Previously I have filed an amendment request, now archived here, on the same topic. I was told that the issue would be revisited when Mathsci was under consideration to be unbanned/unblocked, and it might have been an oversight to not visit this issue.
Somethings to make it easier:
- The linked remedy against TrevelyanL85A2 has an embedded one-way interaction ban within that remedy (TrevelyanL85A2 is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic... [emphasis added]).
- The linked motion turned certain one-way interaction bans into two-way IBANs (and continues to be in effect when Mathsci is unbanned).
- Previous request was basically turned down on the grounds that Mathsci was banned (at the time) and didn't need to be addressed.
- Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 04:57, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
@Mathsci: This request isn't meant to be an attack on your editing; rather, it was a concern (at the time) that a one-way IBAN isn't beneficial, and I note that some of IBANs involving you were converted into mutual IBANs. However, since arbitrators figured it didn't need to be addressed at the time (because you were banned and TrevelyanL85A2 was blocked), they must figured that they can revisit the issue at a later time. I am unsure whether they didn't know such a request existed back then, but I figure it needs to be visited nonetheless. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 07:10, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
@Mathsci: Hospital visits are never fun (especially ER visits). I don't know whether my well wishes would be taken at face value given the fact that I submitted this request, but I still wish you a speedy recovery, nonetheless. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 07:13, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mathsci
This seems to be a repeat of the above request by Penwhale, who has disclosed that he is a RL friend of TrevelyanL85A2. I don't quite understand the point of the request at this stage.
I will, however, take this opportunity to bring up a recent query from an arbitrator.
My site ban was unrelated to editing in the topic area of R&I. It rested on one edit to my user page. The site ban could have been appealed after six months. I waited for two and a half years.
Shortly after the unban, one of the arbitrators privately raised a query with me. Apparently during their discussions some of the arbitrators had a distant memory that my topic ban "by mutual consent", imposed in August 2010, had been lifted. That is correct. It happened at the initiative of arbitrators and was enacted by motion on 20 December 2010. I did not request it.
In March 2016, after a majority of arbitrators had voted to unban me, an intermediary from arbcom asked me if I would agree that a condition of the unban should be a topic ban appealable after 6 months. On arbcom-l I pointed out my voluntary withdrawal from the topic area since August 2010, mentioning the motion of December 2010. That information on the voluntary withdrawal from the topic area was adopted in the current phrasing of the unban but now with a topic ban in perpetuity. That was an odd thing to do.
What are my editing interests at present? A return to a long but incomplete article on baroque music; and the use of images from illuminated manuscripts to enhance articles on fifteenth century art and history.
I have just come out of hospital after an emergency. Here fresh on the doormat is Penwhale's rerun of his request from 2014. Pure bliss. Mathsci (talk) 06:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TrevelyanL85A2
Statement by Newyorkbrad
I appreciate Penwhale's attention to detail and good faith in raising this issue: sometimes it's best to anticipate a potential recurrence of problems and nip them in the bud. That being said, I think this is probably not one of those times. Mathsci has resumed editing, but he will not be editing about race and intelligence, the area in which he previously had negative interactions with TrevelyanL85A2. Meanwhile, TrevelyanL85A2 has a total of three edits within the past year, none of which relate to race and intelligence. Unless something changes, the odds that the two of them will come into conflict again are hopefully slight. Unless I have missed something, the better path might be to let these two editors try to forget about each other, rather than reviving the ill memories of the past on this page. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:47, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Race and intelligence: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Race and intelligence: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I haven't had a chance to look in detail at this yet, but did want to say that I'm sorry to hear about your emergency, Mathsci, and glad to hear you're doing better. If you want to discuss other aspects of your editing restrictions, I suggest opening a new request. On the current topic, my first reaction is to agree with NYB that this isn't really a matter that needs urgent attention and can probably be settled by both parties just ignoring each other and going about their business. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)