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:I agree, and have complained to Born2cycle a couple of times in recent weeks about his practice of moving articles to the title that matches his personal preferences, having "judged" the arguments subjectively rather than seeking consensus. I also see some inconsistency in his attitude to this move - compare with his comments at [[User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Peter_I_of_Russia]] where he agrees that controversial moves made without consensus should be reverted as soon as possible. [[User:Deb|Deb]] ([[User talk:Deb|talk]]) 19:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC) |
:I agree, and have complained to Born2cycle a couple of times in recent weeks about his practice of moving articles to the title that matches his personal preferences, having "judged" the arguments subjectively rather than seeking consensus. I also see some inconsistency in his attitude to this move - compare with his comments at [[User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Peter_I_of_Russia]] where he agrees that controversial moves made without consensus should be reverted as soon as possible. [[User:Deb|Deb]] ([[User talk:Deb|talk]]) 19:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC) |
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::You're conflating two different scenarios, Deb. |
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::# Potentially controversial moves that occur without going through WP:RM (like what we were discussing at [[User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Peter_I_of_Russia]], and what PMA did here) are widely held to be ''inherently wrong'' (regardless of whether the move is "right" or "wrong") and need to be reverted quickly and swiftly. Then, if someone really wants to move it, they are encouraged to go through WP:RM as should have been done in the first place. |
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::# Decisions and moves that are made normally via the WP:RM process, but are questioned, including maybe because it was contentious and closed by a non-admin, are not ''inherently wrong'' and so should not be swiftly reverted but should be brought to the attention of admins, either at [[WT:RM]] or here at AN/I, so that an admin can review the closing and decide whether the decision was reasonable or not (and potentially reverse if not). This occurs at least a few times a year. |
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::I believe my position on this has been consistent for years, if not forever, and I'm pretty sure it reflects the consensus of the community on how these matters should be handled.<p>If consensus has changed... that the rule about non-admins not closing contentious discussions should be strictly enforced, then, yes, I agree those kinds of moves should be swiftly reverted too. But as far as I can tell, non-admin closings of contentious discussions occur multiple times every day, and nobody seems to mind. It's not reasonable to have a consequence which treats these non-admin closings as being ''inherently wrong'' when the community does not generally treat them as being inherently wrong. ''That'' would be an inconsistency. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 04:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC) |
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===Two proposals=== |
===Two proposals=== |
Revision as of 04:35, 20 January 2011
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Automated creation of incorrect categories
User:Rich Farmbrough is again creating pages based on some script (I hope, it is the only decent explanation for the mindlessness of many of the creations), which generates a lot of incorrect stuff. This is the same thing that happened with previous script based creations he did (see the ANI archives for other examples of this).
In its current incarnation, this lead to the creation of categories like Category:Ice T albums (we already had Category:Ice-T albums), Category:Siouxsie and the Banshees albums) (there was Category:Siouxsie & the Banshees albums already), Category:Booker T. & the M.G.s albums for Category:Booker T. & the M.G.'s albums, and so on. Some have been redirected yet, some still need to be cleaned out. Thirteen categories he created between January 11 and today have been deleted. But this isn't a new problem, he created a number of similar categories in December as well, e.g. Category:Records albums. Over 200 were created and deleted at that time, but he doesn't seem to have learned from that experience.
The Category:Various albums was created, deleted, and recreated, apparently because some infoboxes list the artist for albums as "Various". We now have three articles with this stupid category, with the category explanation "This category contains albums by Various."
This is the umpteenth example of this editor creating a mess for others to clean up, because his scripts aren't tested enough and his edits aren't checked manually (or not good enough).
Can we please have an edit restriction on any automated, semi-automated, or appearing-to-be-automated page creation (articles, categories, templates, ...) for this user? Fram (talk) 10:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I am finding this all a little bit insane. I have had to delete a fair number of duplicates—overall, there is a gross amount of duplication going on through this process. Nearly every category I check has some sort of problem—either a duplication, or an incorrectly spelled name, or something. The user is also creating categories for labels that do not have articles on WP, while consensus at CFD has generally been that if a label has no WP article, it should not have a category for its albums. More care and/or thought needs to go into the creation of these categories, so please, yes, no more of this category creation via script. It's creating more problems than it is solving. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Wikipedia:BOTPOL#Mass_article_creation technically only applies to articles; I'd suggested extending it to categories the last time this happened, but didn't make the effort to really push it as a proposal. In any case, given that existing policy and Rich's existing editing restrictions, it seems entirely sensible and a small step to amend those restrictions and declare that for Rich, the policy covers mass creation in any namespace. In addition, somebody might make the effort to propose amending the policy, which seems a sensible move to me. Rd232 talk 11:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- All good ideas, in my opinion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 13:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment:
- December The creations in December were all of categories that had members and yet were non-existent (red-linked categories). They were done in such a way that if the category became empty it was categorised as such and could be dealt with. In most cases that meant deletion.
- January Some of the categories created needed emptying, which has been done by an assiduous user. I deleted those that were emptied, however many had been created before, and I therefore re-created them as category redirects. There is an automated process that moves articles between cat redirects and their targets, since people have used these categories before it seems wise to have the redirection.
- Note: There is a lot of inconstancy over naming of record label articles, also there are notable labels (e.g. Compost Records) for which there are strangely no album articles, and (e.g. Authentik Artists) for which there are album articles but a persistent deletion of the label article. Also Category:Siouxsie and the Banshees albums is the correct location, (speedy rename being requested). Rich Farmbrough, 12:53, 13 January 2011 (UTC).
- Comment. I don't think it's much of a defence to say that the December creations were just "red-linked categories" and thus it was OK to create them. Some of the categories were obviously inappropriately named, and many were misspelled duplicates of pre-existing categories. Users need to use judgment and put some thought into creating categories—like making sure a category does not exist for the same thing already—as opposed to just creating something because it was red-linked. When you see two categories—Category:Ice-T albums and Category:Ice T albums on the same article as I did earlier today, you know someone's putting close to zero thought into the application of what they are doing. This type of problem was repeated many numerous times. Good Ol’factory (talk) 13:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- "The creations in December were all of categories that had members and yet were non-existent (red-linked categories)." So why did you create and delete e.g. Category:Universals Records albums twice in two days? Someone repopulated it between the first deletion and second creation? Or wasn't your script list updated yet? Or the misspelled Category:Warnern Music Group video albums, which you created, modified three times, then deleted one minute after your last modification, only to recreate it three hours later and redelete it one hour after that again? Anyway, if categories are redlinked, the answer is not to automatically create these ctageories, but to check whether they are actually needed or just e.g. misspellings. That would avoid the creation in the same minute of Category:Switchblad Symphony albums, Category:Swithcblade Symphony albums and Category:Switchblade Symphony albums... No one has a problem with you generating a list of potentially needed categories, such a list is useful. But the automated creation clearly leads to many problems which could be very easily avoided, like the creation of misspelled categories. Fram (talk) 13:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes as you can see, as part of that exercise, extensive tidying up took place. The remaining categories from that exercise are
- Category:1971 live live albums 0
- Category:1976 Christmas albums 3
- Category:1978 studio albums 0
- Category:1997 (band) albums 1
- Category:22-20s albums 5
- Category:Alternative albums 0
- Category:Anti-folk albums 24
- Category:At the close of every day albums 0
- Category:Christian alternative rock albums 46
- Category:Northstar hip hop albums 0
- Category:Samba albums 29
- Category:Slapstick albums 0
- perhaps you would like to resolve these flawlessly. Rich Farmbrough, 15:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC).
- No thank you, I have cleaned up after you often enough. Fram (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well these categories are nothing to do with me, I did not create or delete them, nor did I categorise anything in them. I was just suggesting something positive for you to do. Rich Farmbrough, 16:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC).
- Thanks, but I have enough positive things to do here, like creating articles and so on. I guess that most people who have had to tag, correct or delete your incorrectly created categories also have enough positive things they would rather do, but maintaining an encyclopedia doesn't just involve creations and additions, but also removing the mess created by others, and making sure that they'll create less mess the next time around. Your latest category creation of this type, Category:Chikayo Fukuda albums is already up for deletion (not by me, by yet another editor who seems to have problems with your creations), so you are still continuing this mess, despite the obvious objections of many people (and who in his right mind wouldn't object against the creation of a category like Category:Spigot Records, In-Effect Records albums? Fram (talk) 19:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- perhaps you would like to resolve these flawlessly. Rich Farmbrough, 15:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC).
- A particularly brutal example from today: Category:Mr. Bear Records, reissued on Spigot Records albums. Good Ol’factory (talk) 14:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Rich Farmbrough has now recreated Category:Yngwie J. Malmsteen albums, which was deleted at CfD (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 March 23), created by Rich Farmbrough yesterday, and deleted by Good Olfactory this morning. He added it to the article Rising Force[1], which already had the correct Yngwie Malmsteen cat as well, and removed it again from that article some minutes later[2], at the same time changing the correct link to Jens Johansson to the redlink Jenshansson (presumably by trying to remove all instances of " J" from the article). That same removal of " J" resulted in changing the correct French interwikilink to an incorrect one as well. Note that all this happend with the edit summary "(Correct caps in section header.)", which was one thing that didn't happen at that article. Can someone please just stop this loose cannon now? Fram (talk) 19:31, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Rich even said to someone on his talk page offering to help clean up after him re the creation of bad categories Also might be worth watchlisting them in case I re-create them. What the hell? I've gone ahead, based on discussion, continuity with prior issues and a large dose of oh-for-god's-sake boldness, and amended Rich's editing restriction to prohibit unauthorised mass page creation in any namespace. I would expect the restriction to be temporary by virtue of soon being superseded by an amendment to Wikipedia:BOTPOL#Mass_article_creation. I would be heartily grateful if (a) we didn't waste any more time on this particular case of this problem; (b) Rich accepts the amendment; (c) someone else does the heavy lifting on moving forward the policy change. If/when it happens, the new restriction should be removed as redundant.
Of course, if anyone feels that this was too bold, and requires more discussion before reaching this outcome, well, go nuts. You won't be doing Rich any favours, since that will entail closer examination of how his behaviour, however superlatively good faith, too often skates disruptive editing. Rd232 talk 20:57, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- UPDATE: did it myself. RFC at Wikipedia_talk:Bot_policy#Wikipedia:BOTPOL.23Mass_article_creation. Rd232 talk 19:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please do something. I don't know what I was thinking when I volunteered to help. I think the intentions are good but it has become quite painstaking to go through each one. And instead of just checking/correcting them, I also attempted to populate them, too. Whether red-linked or not, I'd check "what links here" for the label to see what other albums might be there that hadn't been categorize. Not a bad thing to do, I guess, for completeness, but much more of a laborious undertaking than I realized. The latest thing I'm seeing done is the addition of album categories to film articles because it has a soundtrack section (see Rocky II as an example). Thanks. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 21:18, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- The population is cool, but not essential, the categories will eventually be populated. Thanks for your help so far anyway. Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- The population is cool, but not essential, the categories will eventually be populated. Thanks for your help so far anyway. Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- I fully support Rd232's amendment. But yeah, as Starcheer... says now we have the issue of tons of movie article being placed in "albums" categories because the article has a section about a movie soundtrack. I would venture to say that this would be a miscategorization. Perhaps a redirect like Rocky III (soundtrack) could be categorized in this way, but not the article Rocky III. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Just to ask the late arrival question... How are these categories being added? Manually, by script, or by 'bot? (One would think that category creation/addition wouldn't be done by a 'bot as it requires a degree judgment on appropriatness...) - J Greb (talk) 00:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- To me, it looks like script, though I am not sure. I believe it has something to do with what appears in the album template on a page, since he always seems to copy exactly what it says there, whether or not it is spelled correctly. It's not by bot I don't think—it's done through the account User:Rich Farmbrough. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's a good point Olfactory. Excellent in fact. Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- Just to ask the late arrival question... How are these categories being added? Manually, by script, or by 'bot? (One would think that category creation/addition wouldn't be done by a 'bot as it requires a degree judgment on appropriatness...) - J Greb (talk) 00:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Rich is also repeatedly creating categories like Category:EMI albums which have explicitly been merged and deleted via CFD. He has not learned from this ANI report and seems to continue to do what he was doing before, though at a slower pace. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:44, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- The idea is to resolve these issues properly, rather than relying on the somatic information, if someone is creating an album article and they put in a label description that seems sensible to them they will recreate the category, or at least have to hunt for the correct one. By having a category redirect these problems can be avoided, since a.) they will see the correct category if they look and b.) Russbot will correct it if they don't. Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- Yeah, but you didn't create a redirect! You created a new category. You've now done it twice for this particular category and countless other times without even realizing you were creating a duplicate. Maybe you should do some hunting before you create a category in the first place. ... Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Or it can be built into the infobox, with a switch reading the proper parameter and adding the category. Anything not in the switch list - that is the existing categories and known likely alternate spellings and typos - gets put into a tracking cat - "Album articles with unclear lable information". It may not be the nicest solution, but it keeps scripts from (re)creating bad categories. - J Greb (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Note that the didn't only repeatedly create the EMI category, but that he also created the now empty Category:EMI Music albums as well, which is one more to delete. Fram (talk) 08:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- There is actually significant subtlety over EMI record labels, with nearly 100 listed on WP alone (Thorn EMI group was composed of several hundred companies), including the massive HMV, Harvest, and Columbia labels if I am not mistaken, and 1.3 million songs in their current holdings. It is by no means obvious that Wikipedia wishes to categorise some, many or all these together as your tone seems to imply. Rich Farmbrough, 15:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- There is actually significant subtlety over EMI record labels, with nearly 100 listed on WP alone (Thorn EMI group was composed of several hundred companies), including the massive HMV, Harvest, and Columbia labels if I am not mistaken, and 1.3 million songs in their current holdings. It is by no means obvious that Wikipedia wishes to categorise some, many or all these together as your tone seems to imply. Rich Farmbrough, 15:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
- Yeah, but you didn't create a redirect! You created a new category. You've now done it twice for this particular category and countless other times without even realizing you were creating a duplicate. Maybe you should do some hunting before you create a category in the first place. ... Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- The idea is to resolve these issues properly, rather than relying on the somatic information, if someone is creating an album article and they put in a label description that seems sensible to them they will recreate the category, or at least have to hunt for the correct one. By having a category redirect these problems can be avoided, since a.) they will see the correct category if they look and b.) Russbot will correct it if they don't. Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC).
Do I understand well that RF can create (OK) and delete (as an admin) their own pages at their own will? Not even a Speedy needed then? (Deletion of self-created pages documented: "The Category:Various albums was created, deleted, and recreated, apparently because some infoboxes list the artist for albums as "Various"." as fram wrote above), Oh these admins. -DePiep (talk) 02:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- As a note, and a note it is: RF is an admin and also an edit filter manager. They know what language is allowed an not. This person can block me!? -DePiep (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- If an admin is the creator and sole editor of a page, I don't see a problem with him deleting it himself, especially if it is a very recent creation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- As a note, and a note it is: RF is an admin and also an edit filter manager. They know what language is allowed an not. This person can block me!? -DePiep (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
What is the status here?
Honestly, how long are we going to let a person run a bot that is so fundamentally flawed? Someone needs to dig up Kurt Cobain and inform him that, sorry, MTV Unplugged in New York is now an Iron Maiden album. Tarc (talk) 22:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, Rich's editing restriction was extended now to cover creation of categories by script, so I assume he won't be doing this by script anymore. Right Rich? Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I hope that's correct. But even if Rich does desist from doing this particular sort of task, the latest episode is a further reminder of the folly of letting an editor use an unauthorised bot which doesn't even identify itself as a bot. Unless that wider issue is tackled, we'll just have more of these problems popping up in different areas.
- I don't know why Rich believes himself to be exempt from the two basic rules of bot usage (prior approval of the bot and seeking consensus for the bot's tasks) ... but it's astonishing that this has gone on so long. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, just block him and be done with it. Does anyone believe that his creation of exactly one category per minute between January 16 20:45 and January 16 21:40 was not script-assisted automated category-creation, throttled to be at one a minute only to give a slower (non-bot like) appearance? Fram (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- My understanding is that he is now working on fixing some of the problems he created. The list he is working off of is here. (When I saw the list I thought, "holy crap"—it does give you an idea of the scope of the problem we have been dealing with.) Anyway, I asked him if he was still using the script and he said he was not. I have checked most of the recent creations and they aren't problematic like the script-assisted creations were. I am happy for him to continue if he's fixing what he broke. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Why, after so much drama already, is this editor running what appears to be an unauthorised bot right on the edge of what was explicitly banned? It's time that RF got a bot account, and sought approval from WP:BAG in the same way as other bot owners do. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Are you talking about right now? As far I can tell, he has not used a bot nor a script to create categories since this discussion began. He's (manually) working on this list, he tells me, so the real issue at this stage is if that is OK or not. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Taking a very small skim... I have to ask where and how he's generated/generating this list... looks like a few "Doesn't look like an preformer" are actually preformers. And I swear I see at least one "Change the category title to a redirect" hash sign included. - J Greb (talk) 04:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It would be nice if Rich were actually commenting here so he could answer our questions. Maybe he needs to be invited back here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I invited Rich back to comment. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The reason I didn't comment here is that there was little to be served by doing so. There is a huge task in cleaning up the cats which will have to be done manually, and there are thousands on the list. Certes many are false positives, and doubtless, given band naming conventions, there are more that are not on the list - as I remarked to Good Olfactory this is a first cut. I'm not sure why J Greb " has to ask" ' where and how he's generated/generating this list... ' certainly the question would be welcome on my talk page as one of curiosity or collaboration. Putting it here looks like an attempt to keep the ANI running. Rich Farmbrough, 10:06, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- The long and the short Rich is that the list you compiled looks like a 'bot result - little or no evaluation done, just raw data. And I'm sorry for asking it here, but this is where the general discusion is happening and the list was pointed out to the rest of the community. - J Greb (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The list is merely, as I said, a first cut of examining all the album artists categories. And it is fairly raw, also needs updating. For these reasons it is in my userspace rather than being dropped off at WP:Albums. Many of these will be perfectly fine categories, and some that I have skipped will be wrong. However a good fraction of these need some kind of fix up. Rich Farmbrough, 18:57, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- The list is merely, as I said, a first cut of examining all the album artists categories. And it is fairly raw, also needs updating. For these reasons it is in my userspace rather than being dropped off at WP:Albums. Many of these will be perfectly fine categories, and some that I have skipped will be wrong. However a good fraction of these need some kind of fix up. Rich Farmbrough, 18:57, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- The long and the short Rich is that the list you compiled looks like a 'bot result - little or no evaluation done, just raw data. And I'm sorry for asking it here, but this is where the general discusion is happening and the list was pointed out to the rest of the community. - J Greb (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The reason I didn't comment here is that there was little to be served by doing so. There is a huge task in cleaning up the cats which will have to be done manually, and there are thousands on the list. Certes many are false positives, and doubtless, given band naming conventions, there are more that are not on the list - as I remarked to Good Olfactory this is a first cut. I'm not sure why J Greb " has to ask" ' where and how he's generated/generating this list... ' certainly the question would be welcome on my talk page as one of curiosity or collaboration. Putting it here looks like an attempt to keep the ANI running. Rich Farmbrough, 10:06, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- Taking a very small skim... I have to ask where and how he's generated/generating this list... looks like a few "Doesn't look like an preformer" are actually preformers. And I swear I see at least one "Change the category title to a redirect" hash sign included. - J Greb (talk) 04:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Are you talking about right now? As far I can tell, he has not used a bot nor a script to create categories since this discussion began. He's (manually) working on this list, he tells me, so the real issue at this stage is if that is OK or not. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Why, after so much drama already, is this editor running what appears to be an unauthorised bot right on the edge of what was explicitly banned? It's time that RF got a bot account, and sought approval from WP:BAG in the same way as other bot owners do. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- My understanding is that he is now working on fixing some of the problems he created. The list he is working off of is here. (When I saw the list I thought, "holy crap"—it does give you an idea of the scope of the problem we have been dealing with.) Anyway, I asked him if he was still using the script and he said he was not. I have checked most of the recent creations and they aren't problematic like the script-assisted creations were. I am happy for him to continue if he's fixing what he broke. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, just block him and be done with it. Does anyone believe that his creation of exactly one category per minute between January 16 20:45 and January 16 21:40 was not script-assisted automated category-creation, throttled to be at one a minute only to give a slower (non-bot like) appearance? Fram (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. If a bot account functioned the way whatever Rich is running off his main account is, it would have long since been blocked and not unblocked without assurances from the owner that it will be much more careful. This is just the latest in a string of issues caused by Rich, whom, I hasten to add, I respect deeply, but who is editing so negligently that it's disruptive. He's racked up the best part of a million edits by leaving an unattended AWB bot running 24/7 for months editing much faster than the rules allow, then there was the tagging of the Main Page (yes, the front page of the website, the one that's viewed by 6 million people a day) with {{uncategorised}} with AWB and now this. When are we going to apply the same rules to Rich as we do to everyone else? If this continues, I seriously think it's going to have to go to ArbCom if he won't follow the rules of his own accord and the community won't make him. Sorry, Rich, I've a lot of respect for you and you've done a lot of good here, but the rules are there for a reason. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- What is ridiculous is that an issue that was being discussed between me and Good Olfactory on my talk page gets dragged here by the user who's actions recently caused the departure of an esteemed colleague. I am certainly glad to see this particular "incident" is not gathering the same level of hostility from bystanders, it is still wearing and unnecessary.
- The difference between a polite and friendly conversation started by Good Olfactory, and involving people who actually work on the albums (notably Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars), and bringing something to ANI speaks to collegial behaviour vs. battleground behaviour. For myself I prefer the former. Rich Farmbrough, 10:06, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- Rich, thanks for explaining your views on the tone of HJ Mitchell's comment's.
- However, HJ Mitchell is not the only editor to express concern about your use of a bot which from your main account, without prior approval per WP:BOTPOL. That's a legitimate ANI issue, and it would be helpful if you would respond to the substance of those concerns. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a comment on the tone of HJ Mitchell's comment's, and I'm sorry you would read it that way. In terms of the suggestion about running an AWB bot I assiduously avoided having AWB source for years, partly because I didn't want to accidentally end up developing it, partly because, I didn't want version control issues but mainly so that I could categorically deny suggestions that I had "hacked the source." I was eventually forced to do that or be blocked. I certainly have not "left an unattended AWB bot running for months 24/7 editing much faster than the rules allow", although I understand that impression may have been formed. My average edit rate is about one edit per four minutes. Rich Farmbrough, 17:56, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- Personally I do not care how these edits are being made, only that they stop...either voluntarily by you or involuntarily via block. If edits like the one I noted at the beginning of this sub-section are still happening, then your contributions to this project are dipping into the "net negative" category. Tarc (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- If you read the thread, you will see that that is exactly what happened, once Good Olfactory began discussing it with me. Rich Farmbrough, 18:07, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- If you read the thread, you will see that that is exactly what happened, once Good Olfactory began discussing it with me. Rich Farmbrough, 18:07, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
- Personally I do not care how these edits are being made, only that they stop...either voluntarily by you or involuntarily via block. If edits like the one I noted at the beginning of this sub-section are still happening, then your contributions to this project are dipping into the "net negative" category. Tarc (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a comment on the tone of HJ Mitchell's comment's, and I'm sorry you would read it that way. In terms of the suggestion about running an AWB bot I assiduously avoided having AWB source for years, partly because I didn't want to accidentally end up developing it, partly because, I didn't want version control issues but mainly so that I could categorically deny suggestions that I had "hacked the source." I was eventually forced to do that or be blocked. I certainly have not "left an unattended AWB bot running for months 24/7 editing much faster than the rules allow", although I understand that impression may have been formed. My average edit rate is about one edit per four minutes. Rich Farmbrough, 17:56, 19th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).
Blocked 72 hours
I have just blocked Rich for 72 hours for (repeated) violation of his edit restrictions. Clearly, they are not working, and I propose amending them by cutting the Gordian knot thusly: (a) Rich is banned from using AWB to carry out any tasks not specifically authorised via BRFA; (b) Rich is banned from applying general fixes and automated redirect replacement via AWB, except where the redirect replacement is an authorised task (c) all existing authorisations are revoked and must be re-applied for. The intention is for simple, straightforward tasks like Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/SmackBot 43 to be permitted with a minimum of fuss and risk, whilst more complex tasks are discussed with due care with respect to the risk of things going wrong again. Rd232 talk 20:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Unblock Request User:ActuallyRationalThinker community discussion
ActuallyRationalThinker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
My first thoughts on this unblock request, due to the nature of the series of incidents, was to direct the editor to WP:ARBCOM. The editor continues to simply post "the first discussion said it all", which, clearly he would be unblocked if that was the case. It is a complex situation, and I would encourage all to read pretty much the entire page to understand the reasonings behind the block, and his responses since. It is up to you to determine if he's honest and sincere. Because of the nature of the block, I think it's appropriate to get a community decision as to their unblock. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:50, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Unblock - There is a sense of 'grovel or stay blocked' in that discussion that makes me a little uncomfortable. Yes, he doesn't seem to have accepted that his use of 'Jew' was pejorative, but he has accepted several times that it was disruptive. A block can surely only be expected to change someone's behaviour, not their opinion. As he puts it "...regardless of whether or not I actually am the most monstrous bigot in the world, it makes no difference to the Wikipedia Project if I can in fact conduct myself in a way that is satisfactory to the goals of the Wikipedia Project." If you ask me, he has a point. So long as his behaviour improves, and his has promised it will, his personal opinions are not something he should stay blocked for. Unblock and give him the chance to prove that he has understood the behavioural requirements.--KorruskiTalk 13:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - The problem is that we are all independent actors -- no one has the time, energy or inclination to follow another editor around checking every one of their edits to make sure that the editor's prejudices aren't showing through. So it does make a difference if the editor is the "most montrous bigot in the world" as any such closely-held POV will inevitably leak through into the editor's constributions, sooner or later. We cannot, therefore, be reasonably certain that their conduct will be "satisfactory to the goals of Wikipedia." Editing Wikipedia is not for everybody, and it seems as if it may not be for this editor. I am opposed to unblocking at this time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:32, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Good wikilawyering, more of a Non-apology apology than an apology. Sometimes people's true nature comes out in "the heat of the moment". Does someone who throws around the term "Jew" when angry really get it? JoeSperrazza (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. JS makes a good point. People's true nature come out when they get emotional. When things heat up this editor starts talking about "Jews" and "cabals". Sure he's calm now but what happens the next time some "Jew" reverts his "Truth (tm)"?--Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose – I see nothing there that shows he is willing to work with others in a collaborative environment. –MuZemike 14:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock - Agree with Beyond My Ken. This project's standards for civilized, polite and constructive discussion are incompatible with anti-semitism/racism/bigotry etc. Also after having been told that the unblock request did not deal with all the issues 2 further un-block requests with nothing new is both tendentious and in fact an abuse of the unblock template--Cailil talk 15:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose – Using edit summaries like the one he used during an edit to the Circumcision article seems to indicate this person is an anti-semite. We don't want or need anti-semites. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose until such a time as they specifically apologize for using "Jew" as a term of opprobium. Saying "I don't consider 'Jew" an insult" doesn't address the problem. Corvus cornixtalk 19:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - FWIW I've alternated between permanently locking his talk page for practicing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT (and wasting our time) and actually unblocking this user for a second chance. I'm entirely ambivalent on whether we'd have to block him again in a month for not working with the community, or just dealing with another bombastic personality which frankly quite a few of us have. I wouldn't oppose an unblock if other admins came to that conclusion. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:59, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- DEFINITELY NOT ANTI SEMITIC - I haven't looked at the full circumstances but I took a very quick look at the edit he was blocked for [3] and then his talk page. It seems completely clear to me that he wasn't being anti semitic at all - all he was suggesting is that there was a link between the users that were reverting him; in effect he was insinuating that they were likely to know one another. Now that may be a bit daft but it's not unreasonable to think that if they *did* know one another one way in which they could was by all being the same religion and thus meeting socially. If anything it's offensive that someone assumed that jew was an insult. It's a religious (and sometimes racial) term by default. It only becomes an insult if the speaker means it that way. Now as to whether he needs a block for the other stuff, I really don't know or care but if I were him I'd be very peed off about being called anti semitic Egg Centric (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- The above account, Egg Centric (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), was created today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- So what? Incidentally the current "investigation" (which is just daft) of my account should worry people - the phrase "chilling effects" comes to mind. Had anyone bothered to look on my user page they can see plenty of edits done by IP :) Egg Centric (talk) 23:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, edits dating all the way back to January 7! Special:Contributions/86.178.52.148. It is standard practice in discussions in the Wikipedia domain to note when comments are made by (apparently) very new users, for reasons that are obvious. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- An SPI has been filed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, and it's also been withdrawn as groundless, not that I mind a check user either way. Anyway, Uncle G has put my views on THAT much better than I could. But the major thing for me in this case is I don't see the anti semitism. Or at least, I understand that an anti semite may make that remark, but it can also be - and most likely is - made completely innocently. Others need to decide whether the other offences justify a block (I think not but I'm not in a position to make a proper evaluation of it, which is why I haven't voted) - but I respectfully suggest that any block votes based on him being an anti semite should be reconsidered or ignored. Egg Centric (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm amazed at the double standard here. An account makes a comment that xe doesn't know that two other accounts aren't in fact the same person, and it's used as one of the two foundation stones upon which the argument here for an indefinite block is being built upon. Magog the Ogre and Beyond My Ken accuse people of being sockpuppets, and not an eyelid is blinked.
Really, there's a whole tottering edifice being built, with bad arguments, double standards, and downright fallacious assumptions (Several people here should learn Hanlon's razor.) on top of just two edits here. And those two edits provide a crumbly and weak foundation for what has been built. If it weren't for the fact that the account in question has done nothing but edit penis articles for one and a half years, I suspect that more people would be making a fuss about the poor logic and demonization employed against someone who is clearly just a fool who doesn't think logically and is not malicious. It's only because this person's single-issue contributions aren't worth expending the time for that I suspect that people aren't.
And yes, that's unfair. But we're all volunteers with finite time, and we choose not to spend it arguing for unblocking a penis-only person. We have more than enough people who focus solely upon penises here at Wikipedia. However, it should be noted that a lot of the argument here is bad, and if the person blocked were not fixated upon penises and thus not worth the volunteer time to expend upon, more people would be pointing out the double standards, unsupported inferences, requests for shrubberies, and leaps to conclusions happening here.
Uncle G (talk) 11:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Your comment is unhelpful. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's very helpful actually, he said what I couldn't say. Egg Centric (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Your comment is unhelpful. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Whatever. You'll note my comment is about whether the remark is anti semitic or not (not specifically about the block per se) so carries just as much weight as any user. (P.S. If you worked backwards you could find other IPs) Egg Centric (talk) 11:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- So what? Incidentally the current "investigation" (which is just daft) of my account should worry people - the phrase "chilling effects" comes to mind. Had anyone bothered to look on my user page they can see plenty of edits done by IP :) Egg Centric (talk) 23:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- As an involved user, I'd like to make a couple of comments. First, it's probably best to evaluate the edit summary in the context of ActuallyRationalThinker's other comments in this discussion. This comment in particular is rather distasteful to my eye: hostility towards Jews and Judaism is clearly apparent, and it seems to display deliberate, calculated rudeness, and absence of intent to collaborate with others in a civil manner. Second, when combined with other behavioural problems (see Jayjg's AN/3RR report for some of these), I am not convinced that this editor is able to conduct him/herself in a suitable manner. Jakew (talk) 13:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, a tough one. I agree that that edit (and discussion in general) is more troubling than the one I was looking at. I still wouldn't characterise it as necessarily anti semitic (again, it may be - it's anti-jewish practice for sure; the only question is whether it's anti-jewish practice because of said practice being done by jews or because of said practice being abhorrent to the OP) but it's closer to the line. Once again, no comment on the behavioural stuff as I don't feel experienced enough to have a useful opinion. Egg Centric (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- The above account, Egg Centric (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), was created today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Reduce to time served. The edit warring and this edit summary rightfully deserved a block. But I see nothing that would require this to immediately jump to indef. Xe would obviously be on a very short leash wrt antisemitic remarks in future. -Atmoz (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Indef does not mean permanent. All they have to do is to stop lawyering, and apologize, recognize why everybody is upset, and promise not to do it again. Corvus cornixtalk 02:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per the concerns stated by Beyond My Ken. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Unblock. There was a dispute about the WP:WEIGHT that should be given to a particular aspect of the topic. An editor was concerned about the balance, and feels that zie is pounced on by a tag-team. Leave aside for a moment what anyone thinks about the substantive issues, and look at the editor's concern: that it appears to him that one particular group of people are trying to deny due weight to a viewpoint which is conflicts with their own. So he notes the influx of Spanish editors, and says "wow! Another Spaniard". When the Spaniard complains about the undue weight given to the Netherlands, the editor turns the comment around by applying the same arguments to the weight given to coverage of Spain.
So far all we have is two sets of editors being rather unconstructive, and not working effectively to resolve the dispute ... except that in this case, the discussion was not about Spain, it was about Judaism, and the editor concerned said "Jew" rather than "Spaniard". He didn't drag it in as an irrelevancy, because Judaism's views on the topic form a major part of the article. That concern about balance and proportionality has been ignored in favour of an attempt to smear the editor as an anti-semite, and silence further discussion by the bad faith assumption that concern about an apparently Jewish tag-team is automatically evidence of anti-semitism. And then, after this editor is blocked, they are told in witchcraft-trail-style that they have to confess to being an anti-semite before they can be unblocked?
This is an outrageous attempt to wikilawyer the NPA rules to silence dissent, and if Looie496 had not unblocked I might have done so myself. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)- I'm sorry to have to say this, but what you've written is completely inaccurate. "He didn't drag it in as an irrelevancy, because Judaism's views on the topic form a major part of the article"? Seriously? Have you even looked at the article? "Judaism's views on the topic" comprise exactly one paragraph, out of over eighty. Instead of actually addressing the legitimate issues brought up by other editors, ActuallyRationalThinker immediately brought up "The Jews" and "Jewish culture". When it was pointed out that this was off-topic, but he could bring it up in a separate section, he responded by mimicking the comment made to him, using the phrase "even if Jews couldn't go on living without their daily fill of infant penis-reduction surgery", and subsequently made it clear that he is not responding as part of a good faith exchange of views, but rather attempting to the "expose the unreasonable nature" of the arguments of those who disagree with him. ActuallyRationalThinker had no actual "concern about balance and proportionality", or he wouldn't have inserted that material in the first place. Rather, he was just personally (and not so subtly) attacking those who disagreed with him, and it is rather dismaying that you would claim otherwise. Jayjg (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Unblocking
I am about to unblock this editor, and would like to explain why first. The sole justification for imposing an indef on an editor who has never previously been blocked was the edit summary, "Wow. A third Jew, Brewcrewer--who has NEVER edited the circumcision article even once before--appears out of nowhere to join the cabal." That's offensive, and in combination with edit warring certainly justifies a block, but an indef block? I don't think so. Suppose the article had been about Scientology, and the edit summary had said Scientologist instead of Jew -- would an indef block have been imposed? I don't think so. With all respect for the opinions expressed above, I am therefore taking the initiative of reducing the sentence to time served. Looie496 (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Looie496. The strong consensus above is clearly not to unblock. If you want to voice your opinion in that discussion (as you appear to have done) please feel free to do so, but you can't take it on yourself to ignore the consensus above, or insist your single vote outweighs the statements of the clear majority here. Please reverse your unblock so that someone else doesn't have to do it for you. Jayjg (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Looie496 has unblocked this user without consensus. Could somebody please reblock and start a deaminship process against Looie496? Corvus cornixtalk 05:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- The admin who should be sanctioned is Magog the Ogre, for making a block based on an unfounded allegation of race-baiting. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I am also rather concerned by the stunning disregard for consensus... Jakew (talk) 10:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support unblock- This editor has served almost three weeks, which is more than enough for what they said, and has done about as much abject grovelling as can reasonably be demanded. Reyk YO! 08:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- The editor looks to be a single-purpose account, dedicated to the "cause" from its very first edit,[4] and no stranger to making accusations of bad faith based on the presumed bias of other editors.[5][6] The use of the term "cabal",[7] i.e. "pro-circumcision cabal", a term which I saw used by another edit last summer, is perhaps even more ominous than his throwing the term "Jew" around, and I don't see anything on his talk page that suggests he no longer believes in such a "cabal". Given the editors' underlying assumptions, it is unlikely the editor will improve its approach, but we'll see. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- It does seem that "cabal" accusations by various users go back to at least March of 2006. It strikes me as peculiar wording, but maybe in regard to this subject it's a frequently-used slogan? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- ActuallyRationalThinker has contributed little more here than than a few sporadic instances of edit warring on matters of the penis, accompanied by aggression directed at other editors. The antisemitic comment was way over the top, and it's reasonable for the community to take that as the last straw. If this odd editing is their only work on Wikipedia, Wikipedia is none the worse with them gone. If this is an alternate account, same result. The three denied unblocked requests didn't show any evidence that they would change their ways. Despite an apology they defended the antisemitic comment as either harmless or justified, and never promised not to do it again. Unblocking them sends the wrong message, that the community considers this okay. Unfortunately, re-blocking them would send a worse message, that the community can't deal with race baiting. The best way out at this point is to give them a stern warning that they should be on best behavior, and any further inflammatory conduct will get them reblocked for good. Looie496's unblock was unwise and out of process. Checking Louie496's history as an administrator, I don't see any other incidents of contentious use of tools. Let's hope this doesn't become a pattern. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- It does seem that "cabal" accusations by various users go back to at least March of 2006. It strikes me as peculiar wording, but maybe in regard to this subject it's a frequently-used slogan? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- To explain a bit more about the basis for the unblock: it was apparent to me, looking over the discussion, that a permanent block was disproportionate to the offense, and that for various political reasons there would never be a clear consensus to unblock. It seemed to me that it was necessary for somebody to step up, and I couldn't see why I should ask somebody else to do it. For what it's worth, I am uncomfortable with a number of aspects of this editor's contributions, and wouldn't be at all surprised to see more problems in the future -- but I don't think it is our custom to block permanently for a relatively minor offense merely because it worries us. Looie496 (talk) 17:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- What "political reasons" - is that a code word for something? And what basis do you have for saying that accusing editors of being part of a Jewish cabal is a minor offense that needs somebody with administrative credentials to step up to the plate on? - Wikidemon (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- The editor should have been kept blocked. But if he doesn't behave himself, he'll be back here pronto. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Looie496, it's clear you think he should be unblocked. What's not clear is why you think your specific views on this weigh more than the strong consensus of other editors above, or why you think you can summarily ignore/preempt that consensus. Please restore the previous block until this discussion concludes, so that we can discuss ActuallyRationalThinker, rather than having to open an admin abuse discussion on you. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- - Wow, this is a really out of process unnecessary unblock that demeans the whole process of discussion and consensus. For what is worth, which in this case would have been nothing - I also supported the block but as the weight of consensus and the discussion cleanly was in favor of support I didn't bother to add my weight of support for it. Off2riorob (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I agree that the mid-discussion unblock wasn't helpful. That's particularly true when ActuallyRationalThinker is a sporadically used SPA. I think an indefinite block for that one remark alone would be inappropriate, but taken together with the reverting, and the single-purpose nature of the account, it wasn't unreasonable, and it would have been better to let the discussion play itself out. Now that he's unblocked, perhaps Looie would consider applying a one-year topic ban, so ATR can learn how to edit within policy by working on articles he cares less about. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 20:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The unblock was a spectacular example of an out-of-consensus admin running wild, who even now is trying to claim that the refusals by multiple admins to unblock is somehow bad faith on their part. Corvus cornixtalk 20:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Another Comment. I understand why Looie did what he did. The edit was not anti semitic (or, at least, it probably wasn't) - but it takes balls to say so. Most right thinking people do not want to be accused of anti-semitism (nor racism, nor chauvinism, nor a bunch of other ugly things, another of his edits seemed a bit closer to the line but was still perfectly consistent with believing in a cabal that happened to be jewish [and if there is to be a cabal on circumcision not unreasonable to expect it to be jewish]) so err on the side of caution the other way.
- Incidentally this is why religious tolerance (an indisputably good thing, although many religions think otherwise) so often manifests itself as respect for religion, which is at least arguably a bad thing. Egg Centric (talk) 23:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's clearly antisemitic. There is no "probably" -- it either is or is not, based on the text of the statement. A person with a good heart and no racist intent can sometimes misspeak, say something unaware of how others will interpret it, or be ignorant of the inappropriateness of a comment, but the comment itself is still racist. I don't think those apply because angrily accusing someone of taking an action as a member of a Jewish cabal is neither harmless nor inadvertent. That's one of the primary and most destructive forms of antisemitism throughout history. Accusing Jews of conspiring behind people's backs in order to control things sets off warning bells. Perhaps the minority opinion here that the block should have been lifted is held by some who just can't see that statement as racist. For those people, please pay attention to the fact that the majority of people feel otherwise, and the nature of bigoted statements is that they don't have to offend 100% of the population, or even a majority of the population, in order to be hurtful. If your companions say that a comment was offensive but you don't see the offense, you should realize that the comment is still one that offends. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- FWIW, my argument for an unblock (above) does not hinge on whether the statement is or is not anti-semitic. My argument is that blocks are (supposed to be) for the protection of Wikipedia, not as a way of forcibly extracting an apology. If the blocked party has promised to modify his behaviour (and he has, several times), then whether or not he agrees that he was being anti-semitic, or has apologised should be irrelevant. All that matters is whether we believe him. I don't, especially, but I would rather give him a chance (and some WP:ROPE).--KorruskiTalk 23:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)The comment deserved a block, but dragging it out this long is punitive rather than preventive. Keeping this user blocked is not preventing any harm to the encyclopedia. What is being required of this user is not merely an earnest statement that they understand the community finds that sort of comment extremely distasteful and that he won't do it again. He has already given that - explicitly - on his talk page in the form of a detailed bullet point list. No, what is being demanded is abject grovelling, as though trying to hold on to a modicum of dignity and self respect is a disruptive crime deserving permanent banishment. He's given at least three apologies and a firm promise to knock it off, but it seems that whatever he says it's always "not good enough! not good enough!" and there's always just one more humiliation necessary. We should either be honest and say "There is no possibility of an unblock, under any circumstances, ever" or we should be fair and accept an earnest (though possibly grumpy) apology. Reyk YO! 00:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- The community felt otherwise, obviously. As I said above, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but administrators do have to respect the community rather than invoking personal veto rights. My review of the apologies leads me to side with the majority here. He did apologize for edit warring, but regarding the offensive comments his calling them "unconstructive" and noting that his "remarks have upset people" is outweighed by his defiant attitude and refusal to acknowledge that they were wrong:
- I felt I was being cornered by a clique of biased editors who..., seemed like suspiciously biased and organized behavior, and [Brewcrewer] spends an exorbitant amount of time cleaning, formatting, protecting, and writing articles that relate to Israel, Jews, Judaism, and the Holocaust...it validates the exasperation I was trying to express. (i.e. he was right about there being a pro-Jewish cabal)
- born of exasperation rather than any kind of malice that could truly disrupt Wikipedia. and I never used any language that is even remotely racist; I can only apologize for transgressions that I did in fact make (i.e. what I did was harmless).
- I take issue with Brandon's baseless and defamatory claim that my edits display any kind of "antisemitism", accusing me of such bigotry out of hand borders on libel, and doing so with the voice of an Administrator seems like an abuse of power, and "abuse blocking or banning as a means of exacting punitive revenge" (i.e. quit being so sensitive - classic blaming of the offended group, playing the victim, and telling them they're the bigots for taking offense)
- His grudging apology, and promise not to do it again, is unconvincing given that he does it again in the course of making his unblock arguments - he is basically saying that he shouldn't have used the word "Jew" because people got upset, but yes, there is a cabal of Jewish editors including the person he first insulted who are abusing the encyclopedia to have their way. The lack of groveling isn't the problem, it's reiterating his original offensive statement in new words while blaming the accusers for abusing him. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- The community felt otherwise, obviously. As I said above, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but administrators do have to respect the community rather than invoking personal veto rights. My review of the apologies leads me to side with the majority here. He did apologize for edit warring, but regarding the offensive comments his calling them "unconstructive" and noting that his "remarks have upset people" is outweighed by his defiant attitude and refusal to acknowledge that they were wrong:
- Egg Centric, I think the concern here is that being Jewish is regarded as an ethnicity, not only a follower of Judaism. So in one sense, it's like saying "Wow, a third Scientologist," but in another sense it's like saying, "Wow, a third African American." That's why it caused offence. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- To extend my example to yours (on re reading - not brilliantly - and on third thoughts apologies btw if black here is offensive, I'm not totally certain but it definitely isn't here in the UK and it feels very weird for me to constantly type out African American)... say he was editing gangsta rap and arguing that it led to shootings and domestic violence, and a few uninvolved editors who happened to be black came along and reverted him, and he expressed sarcastic surprise that they were all black - now he may be racist in pointing that out, he may not not be, he's almost certainly paranoid about there being a conspiracy against him and in my view that statement can be used in evidence of the latter but not the former. And my example is not brilliant as gangster rap is certainly not part of black identity (although most fans are black) - circumcision, on the other hand, certainly is an example of jewish identity. Anyway I just said I was going to bed in an other edit so had better do now! Egg Centric (talk) 00:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep in mind, his edit-summary comment about Jews wasn't his first or only irrelevant reference to Jews. Indeed, his first comments to the article Talk: page make it clear that this is a singular focus of his: Talk:Circumcision/Archive 67#Netherlands_section. Rather than actually addressing the issues brought up by other editors, he immediately brings up "The Jews" and "Jewish culture". When it is pointed out that this is off-topic, he responds by mimicking the comment made to him, using the phrase "even if Jews couldn't go on living without their daily fill of infant penis-reduction surgery", and subsequently makes it clear that he is not responding as part of a good faith exchange of views, but rather attempting to the "expose the unreasonable nature" of the arguments of those who disagree with him. Jayjg (talk) 01:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yet another "I know better than everybody else" unblock that enables continued disruption rather than prevent it. The statement above is at odds with basic block policy by referring to the block in terms of "sentence" and "time served", as though blocks were a punishment and their duration dependent on some measure of guilt. They are not; they are an administrative measure to prevent disruption and should last until we are convinced that the disruption won't reoccur. I would support a recall petition. Sandstein 23:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ah the super vote admin action strikes again. Seriously, Looie496 you should reblock. You're actions show absolutely no respect for your fellow editors. If you don't like the way a community discussion is going, you have no right to subvert it to get your way. Really bad form. I generally hate when things like this immediately devolve into hysterical calls for de-adminships, but if you really feel that your opinion is more important than the community's consensus, you don't need to have the tools. AniMate 00:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've contacted Looie496; he's stated he won't re-block, but he won't object if someone else does. Is that good enough? Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- So what damage or disruption will be prevented if they are reblocked? They have not edited since the unblock, they have stated they won't do it again. We're now past beating a dead horse and in the middle of making dog food. It seems like unless the exact phrasing comes out of their mouth, nothing less than total punishment of this user is acceptable. Looie496 and a few other admins saw this but some seem to not see it. 65.122.75.14 (talk) 12:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Moving forward
If we can move past the question of the unblock and what should happen in the short term, what should the outcome be for this editor? I can think of a few. Some of these are mix and match:
- Do nothing - leave unblocked, accept promise / apology and move on
- Informal probation - advise the editor they are under some scrutiny and that further race-based insults and/or edit warring will earn another block
- Extract promise - block / ban until and unless they acknowledge that whatever their intent it was wrong to categorize editors as Jewish and to ascribe conspiratorial motives to groups of editors in the context of their being Jewish, or vice-versa
- Ask for promise that this is their sole account, with amnesty(?) if they acknowledge socking and go back to their primary account
- Topic ban from Judaism and/or penis-related subjects
- Topic ban from making disparaging comments, complaints, etc., that invoke the ethnicity or minority status of other editors
Any others? - Wikidemon (talk) 01:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with 1, 2, and 6. Neutral on 5. Disagree with 3 because blocks are for preventing disruption- not for extracting humiliation concessions, forcing people to agree with you, or punishing people for holding offensive or unpopular views. The user in question is free to believe whatever he likes about the remarks he made so long as he doesn't repeat them. Regarding #4, was there ever any convincing evidence of socking? Reyk YO! 04:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. I was just throwing all the suggestions out there. I don't think there's any convincing evidence of socking, but rather an odd editing pattern that raises suspicio for some. Probably not worth pursuing if they don't otherwise get into trouble going forward. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- 1) No "sanctions" for any admins involved and 2) Keep the guy on a "short leash". Is it really that hard to "re-block" him the instant he screws up again? It's not. Doc talk 06:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- See, we had a perfectly reasonable and workable solution: the editor was indef blocked, appropriately, and the community consensus was that he should remain blocked. Why is anyone interested in what the community has to say now, to "move forward", when the community's views were
shat onignored by the unblocking admin? What's the point? There are numerous situations in which the community doesn't know, collectively, what it wants done, or when no one's interested in taking the time and effort to contribute to a consensus discussion, and in those circumstances, an admin who can take the bull by the horns and enforce policy is appreciated. This was not one of those situations: the community's voice was clear, and remains clear. The fact that the unblocking admin hasn't reversed his decision is highly regrettable, and yet another slap in the face to the community. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)- Then why has no admin re-blocked him? (I don't think it would be a WP:WHEEL situation if they did considering the strong feelings towards this one user). The unblocking admin has expressed his desire for recall because of this mess. The editor in question hasn't made one edit since his unblocking; and blocks are to be preventative and not punitive. What damage has been unleashed since his unblock, and what couldn't be instantly remedied by an indefinite block by one of the many admins watching his every move if he dares resume the behavior that he was blocked for? To "punish" the unblocking admin is, IMHO, unwarranted. It's often an ochlocracy here, but sometimes one voice can ring out from the fray. Block him forever if he makes one more ethnic slur: then the unblockintg admin will be proven "wrong". Doc talk 08:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I do not advocate that the unblocking admin be "punished" in any way – and recall for a single incident is ridiculous anyway – but I do think he should feel the community's displeasure. As for the editor -- well, he hasn't edited at all yet, so we don't know what will happen, but by your logic, every indeffed editor should be unblocked, since we can always block them again. The editor's behavior was disruptive, he was blocked, he requested an unblock without showing any understanding of why he had been blocked, the request was brought here for the the community's opinion, which it gave, and then it was ignored and the editor was unblocked anyway. That doesn't sound to me like a reasonable way to run things, and I'd like to see -- at the very least -- some acknowledgment from the unblocking admin that slamming the foor in the face of the community's opinion was inapprooriate in this circumstances, no matter what his personal opinion of the original block was. Admins get the mop with the expectation that they will use their judgment in the use of their tools, and part of that is knowing when to act, and when not to. This was an occasion not to, to make his opinion known as a member of the community, and allow things to run their course. That he hasn't shown any inclination to indicate his understanding of that is distressing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see the definitive consensus for the indefinite block above as clearly as you do, I suppose - the consensus is to keep him blocked, but it is not an overwhelming majority. I certainly do see a few editors calling for Looie496's head on a pike (not you, I reckon); and that's what concerns me more. We don't need to lose an admin who is willing to act boldly (open to recall)[8] because of one little editor. He doesn't have to grovel about it, and he doesn't have to "reverse" himself to make it right. If the decision was so completely profound in its error: I recommend another admin re-block him, like yesterday. What's stopping this? I don't think Looie's going to do it, as he appears to be "sticking to his guns". Doc talk 08:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- When looking at the consensus discussion, you need to discount all comments added after the unblock. When you do that, the consensus is abundantly clear: 10 comments, 2 supported unblocking, 8 did not That's a clear consensus. As for why nop admin has re-blocked, perhaps they, too, are waiting to see if the unblocking admin might come to some understanding of the incorrectness of what he did. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Why do you need to discount all comments after the unblock? Reyk YO! 14:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Because to judge whether the unblock was appropriate you have to consider community consensus at the time; it's not realistic to credit Looie496 (or indeed anyone else) with the ability to foresee what might be said in future. Jakew (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think there is no point in continuing with this discussion. The admin has unblocked against consensus and that has been noted, as a stand alone ignore all rules situation its not even close to wheels dropping off, although IMO this situation regarding this contributor was not one that was worthy of making a stand and using his admin wild card, the unblocked user may never even use that account to edit again and if he does he will need to edit within the conditions of his unblock, so, moving on and closing the discussion seems the correct option. Off2riorob (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Because to judge whether the unblock was appropriate you have to consider community consensus at the time; it's not realistic to credit Looie496 (or indeed anyone else) with the ability to foresee what might be said in future. Jakew (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Why do you need to discount all comments after the unblock? Reyk YO! 14:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- When looking at the consensus discussion, you need to discount all comments added after the unblock. When you do that, the consensus is abundantly clear: 10 comments, 2 supported unblocking, 8 did not That's a clear consensus. As for why nop admin has re-blocked, perhaps they, too, are waiting to see if the unblocking admin might come to some understanding of the incorrectness of what he did. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see the definitive consensus for the indefinite block above as clearly as you do, I suppose - the consensus is to keep him blocked, but it is not an overwhelming majority. I certainly do see a few editors calling for Looie496's head on a pike (not you, I reckon); and that's what concerns me more. We don't need to lose an admin who is willing to act boldly (open to recall)[8] because of one little editor. He doesn't have to grovel about it, and he doesn't have to "reverse" himself to make it right. If the decision was so completely profound in its error: I recommend another admin re-block him, like yesterday. What's stopping this? I don't think Looie's going to do it, as he appears to be "sticking to his guns". Doc talk 08:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- I do not advocate that the unblocking admin be "punished" in any way – and recall for a single incident is ridiculous anyway – but I do think he should feel the community's displeasure. As for the editor -- well, he hasn't edited at all yet, so we don't know what will happen, but by your logic, every indeffed editor should be unblocked, since we can always block them again. The editor's behavior was disruptive, he was blocked, he requested an unblock without showing any understanding of why he had been blocked, the request was brought here for the the community's opinion, which it gave, and then it was ignored and the editor was unblocked anyway. That doesn't sound to me like a reasonable way to run things, and I'd like to see -- at the very least -- some acknowledgment from the unblocking admin that slamming the foor in the face of the community's opinion was inapprooriate in this circumstances, no matter what his personal opinion of the original block was. Admins get the mop with the expectation that they will use their judgment in the use of their tools, and part of that is knowing when to act, and when not to. This was an occasion not to, to make his opinion known as a member of the community, and allow things to run their course. That he hasn't shown any inclination to indicate his understanding of that is distressing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Then why has no admin re-blocked him? (I don't think it would be a WP:WHEEL situation if they did considering the strong feelings towards this one user). The unblocking admin has expressed his desire for recall because of this mess. The editor in question hasn't made one edit since his unblocking; and blocks are to be preventative and not punitive. What damage has been unleashed since his unblock, and what couldn't be instantly remedied by an indefinite block by one of the many admins watching his every move if he dares resume the behavior that he was blocked for? To "punish" the unblocking admin is, IMHO, unwarranted. It's often an ochlocracy here, but sometimes one voice can ring out from the fray. Block him forever if he makes one more ethnic slur: then the unblockintg admin will be proven "wrong". Doc talk 08:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- See, we had a perfectly reasonable and workable solution: the editor was indef blocked, appropriately, and the community consensus was that he should remain blocked. Why is anyone interested in what the community has to say now, to "move forward", when the community's views were
- 1) No "sanctions" for any admins involved and 2) Keep the guy on a "short leash". Is it really that hard to "re-block" him the instant he screws up again? It's not. Doc talk 06:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the socking accusation - assuming Wikidemon and Reyk were talking about when I was being accused of being this user's sock, Maggie and Ken, please take note: this is why I was pissed off when you were making these accusations based on sod all. Mud sticks. There's no reason you couldn't have done so discretely (I have no objection to you having a suspicion and investigating it) Making a song and dance about it on flimsiest of evidence, especially when I have a new user account and it's hard to prove a negative, just isn't on imo. Egg Centric (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. So there's an answer to Reyk's question about #4! Egg Centric (talk) 18:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- The last I knew, community consensus was what mattered, and there was definatley a consensus not to unblock. I am going to call for deadminship of the above sysop. This user needs re-blocked and remain as such until there is a clear consensus to do otherwise. Dusti*poke* 19:25, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Policy trumps consensus. Later on in WP:CONSENSUS, it states, "Consensus is ultimately determined by the quality of the arguments given for and against an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, not by a simple counted majority." Looie acted upon the policy that blocks are preventative not punitive and saw the indefinite time period as too long for a first-time block.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)- This is 100% correct. Reyk YO! 00:48, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- In this case, however, policy and consensus were in agreement, and Looie ignored the consensus, in favor of his own view. Given the extreme wikilawyering on the ActuallyRationalThinker's Talk: page, it's clear the block in this case was preventative, not punitive, and the time period in question was entirely appropriate until such time as ActuallyRationalThinker could actually make credible statements about his future actions. Jayjg (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. I was just throwing all the suggestions out there. I don't think there's any convincing evidence of socking, but rather an odd editing pattern that raises suspicio for some. Probably not worth pursuing if they don't otherwise get into trouble going forward. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Recommend closing thread and moving on. Consider compromising and give the user rope and block on next offense. If you're unhappy with Looie, give him a trophy fish for his wall. Desysopping on a first possible problem with him sounds extreme.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Recommend leaving thread open until issue is resolved. The user was given plenty of changes to make a clear and honest statement but refused to, Looie was given plenty of chances to undo his action, but refused to. Jayjg (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps surprisingly, User:Looie496/Recall is now certified by five admins, so Looie496 can decide to resign or stand at RfA, according to his ground rules. Fences&Windows 01:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Improper move closer by non-admin User:macr86 at Talk:Ann Arbor
User:Macr86, who has no user page and a history of controversy on his or her talk page particularly in regard to moves, just closed a controversial WP:RM proposal at Talk:Ann Arbor#Revert_move (now Talk:Ann Arbor, Michigan#Revert_move). I request that an uninvolved admin review this decision and move for the following reasons:
- Performed by a non-admin in a discussion in which opinion was strong in both directions.
- No reasoning/explanation given for deciding to move despite the apparent lack of consensus to move (this was an article that was moved with clear consensus support recently, and this was an attempt to move it back, but, although a slight majority in favor of moving back is there in terms of vote counts, there was no consensus support to move it back, especially when weighing the argument presented in terms of being well-argued statements based in policy and guidelines.
Reference from Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Closing_instructions#Who_can_close_requested_moves:
Non-admin closure
Experienced editors in good standing are allowed to close some requested move surveys.
Non-administrators should restrict themselves to:
Unanimous or nearly unanimous discussions after a full listing period (seven days);
Where there is no contentious debate among participants;
Which do not require a history merge or history swap; and
Which do not have large numbers of subpages that need to be moved along with the move of the project page, such as voluminous archives (administrators have the ability to move up to 100 pages in a single click).
Not only is this user not an admin, but I don't think he or she even meets the "Experienced editors in good standing" criteria.
Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Got a better idea -- let's topic ban Born2cycle from naming discussions. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)Never mind.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I'm the one that has posted most of the concerns about this user's closes to their talk page - so far I've queried 4 closures of theirs with them. I was hoping they would respond to some of my comments, although I had decided that I would take this here if they made another controversial close without any discussion which is exactly what they now have done. I agree with Born2cycle's comments and also ask that someone else tries talking to this user about the problems they're causing. [For the sake of transparency I am a non-admin who has been closing many requested moves and this is how I came across these. I would hope however that I am considered a "Experienced editors in good standing" and have only been closing relatively uncontroversial discussions (although I have been pushing it a bit in an attempt to clear the backlog)]. Although Born2cycle may have had their own problems in this area a quick look at this user's actions will show that Born2cycle's concerns are valid. Dpmuk (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think your concerns are valid with the closes by this editor. Following your notice to me, I did leave a note on their talk page that their closes could be considered vandalism and they should not do any moves for a while. While I may agree with some of the moves, others are clearly wrong. But too may have questionable consensus or were against consensus. I'm not commenting on this particular close, just the actions of the closer that is being discussed here. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- As a participant in that discussion, I have to agree that was a highly inappropriate "drive-by, no comment or rationale" close. It needs to be reverted and properly closed by an uninvolved admin willing to analyze the arguments and explain the rationale for moving or not moving the page. 28bytes (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think your concerns are valid with the closes by this editor. Following your notice to me, I did leave a note on their talk page that their closes could be considered vandalism and they should not do any moves for a while. While I may agree with some of the moves, others are clearly wrong. But too may have questionable consensus or were against consensus. I'm not commenting on this particular close, just the actions of the closer that is being discussed here. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- We've discussed problems with him before, see [9] - a discussion which he didn't participate in and which involved what were felt to be disruptive moves of White Rabbit pages, perhaps also via an IP in the past. If he doesn't respond to this discussion I'm considering a block. Dougweller (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Can you please also consider 28bytes' request for a revert and unclose of the discussion/decision in question to allow for an uninvolved admin "to analyze the arguments and explain the rationale for moving or not moving the page."? Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:01, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- We've discussed problems with him before, see [9] - a discussion which he didn't participate in and which involved what were felt to be disruptive moves of White Rabbit pages, perhaps also via an IP in the past. If he doesn't respond to this discussion I'm considering a block. Dougweller (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Macr86 (talk · contribs · logs) has a short contribution history consisting almost exclusively of article titling work: redirects, page moves, and posts to move discussions, as well as a few AfD-related contributions. I'm posting to his talk page now.
I agree that it would be appropriate to revert the closure of the discussion. People were still making points, and it's a significant discussion, in the RM world, for what that's worth. I'm not going to do anything adminly, because I closed the previous discussion, so that would look funny. (My position on the move is in the discussion: I'm an observer.) -GTBacchus(talk) 22:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The Ann Arbor-specific discussion is now taking place on Talk:Ann Arbor |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a side note, more input is certainly welcome at the discussion in question. Lots of people are questioning just where the line is regarding names of US cities (Los Angeles/"Los Angeles, California", versus Albuquerque, New Mexico/"Albuquerque"). The more people in the conversation, the clearer a consensus we'll obtain. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted this entirely inappropriate move. If and when a consensus developed regarding moving the article, then an experienced and uninvolved admin can move it. Until then, the discussion should be allowed to continue, so a consensus develops. Jayjg (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
|
Additional out-of-process move(s) by User:macr86
Note that User:macr86 also closed a discussion prematurely here: Talk: Rosalie. Then he/she moved the page prematurely. I think he needs to understand that these sorts of editorial operations are best done by more experienced editors and require consensus. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's outrageous.
- The proposal was made 14:57, 14 January 2011,
- there was one Oppose at 17:56, 14 January 2011,
- a brief discussion,
- and User:macr86 closed it in favor of moving the next day at 23:25, 15 January 2011.
- I have not looked into the underlying issues, but regardless of whether the decision happened to be "right" or "wrong", I suggest the move be reversed, and the discussion re-opened and re-listed.
- Just how many of these blatantly disruptive closures and completely ignored warnings on his talk page have to be there before we can reasonably assume that this behavior is more about a lack of caring than a lack of understanding?
- I wish I knew why sometimes quick action is taken by admins, and then there are cases like this where nobody does anything and the disruption is simply allowed to continue. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've blocked macr86 to make sure that the editor doesn't make any more moves against policy. As soon as they figure out what they did wrong, they can request an unblock. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks SarekOfVulcan, much appreciated. 28bytes (talk) 04:59, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- The user has a history of obsessive move requests dealing with the topic of white rabbits. (Talk:White Rabbit (disambiguation)) including ignoring consensus, and trying to bypass established consensuses through other processes. 65.93.13.210 (talk) 12:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and by the way -- "nobody does anything and the disruption is simply allowed to continue" -- that's why you're still editing. So stop throwing stones before one of them hits your glass house. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Spot on, Sarek. I was going to write something similar myself, but you put it perfectly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not doing anything about someone who is doing nothing wrong or disruptive is the appropriate response. That situation is not at all comparable to not doing anything about someone who refuses to even engage in discussion about his or her blatantly disruptive and inexplicable behavior questioned by multiple editors. I guess it might be fun and cathartic to take swipes at vocal people you disagree with, but both of these comments essentially comparing my expression of controversial opinions about naming guidelines and their applications to various articles to vandalism are completely out of line. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- As your continual efforts to impose European-conformism to American city names in defiance of common usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Last I checked I was born in the USA and WP:TITLE applied to the naming of all articles in Wikipedia, not just to those about European cities. In any case any disagreement about that is not vandalism. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Since when do wikipedia guidelines override common usage? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Last I checked I was born in the USA and WP:TITLE applied to the naming of all articles in Wikipedia, not just to those about European cities. In any case any disagreement about that is not vandalism. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Consistently overwhelming discussions with repeated posts of slightly-rephrased positions is pretty much as disruptive as not posting at all. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Is the fantastic definition of disruption you seem to be assuming documented anywhere? I don't mean to be pedantic, but you say this as if it's obvious that participating in a lot of discussions about related issues is wrong and disruptive. It's not like I'm just posting gibberish all over the place, though that's what you seem to be implying. I'm responding to posts and questions posed by other editors, just as I am here. I'm engaging in discussion trying to develop consensus. It might not be effective because people get tired of it, but to compare it to the obviously disruptive behavior of irresponsible RM discussion closures is out of line. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, you're trying to force consensus, and refuse to listen to other people's ideas of consensus. If you were listening, you'd be typing a lot less and agreeing a lot more. See WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Anything there look familiar? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Force consensus? How in the heck does one do that? It's impossible, by definition! Even if I somehow managed to physically threaten people to get them to say they agree with me, that still wouldn't be "consensus", because the "agreement" would be a sham. You say I don't pay attention to what others say? How about paying attention to your own words?
IDHT? Oh, please. This is like throwing around cooked noodles and hoping something sticks.
In the unlikely event that you're serious about this, please be specific and clear about what "unsupportable allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has rejected it" you think I'm sticking to (I will consider no response to this as acknowledgment that you're not serious). Please consider that after the AP consensus decision I was pretty quiet about the whole U.S. city naming/guideline issue the entire time, for 3 1/2 years, until I opened the RFC a few weeks ago to see where consensus was. The suggestion that I continue to stick to a position and repeatedly discuss it after the community consensus has rejected it is proven to be dead wrong not only with respect to U.S. city naming, but also with respect to flora naming.
I admit to the mistake that I repeat a lot of what I say, that's definitely a weakness of mine, but that alone is not evidence of IDHT or disruption.
And there is no way that I refuse to "acknowledge others' input or their own error." (in fact, I just acknowledged my own error of repeating a lot of what I say). To the contrary, part of the reason I post so much is precisely because I pay so much attention to what others are saying, give it careful thought, and explain my perspective as clearly as I can when I respond (as I'm doing here, though in this case I'm paying close attention to the words to which you referred at IDHT, but it's my typical process). How can I respond so specifically to something I'm not acknowledging? That's absurd. You're not making any sense, just spewing nonsense irrationally.
I recognize your frustration with me is genuine, but you need to understand that it stems from a disagreement about something substantive, not my behavior, other than I'm vocal about stating an opinion with which you disagree. Isn't it curious that I'm mostly chastised by those who disagree with me... (I say "mostly" because there are some who agree with me who have advised me that I post too much, but it's done respectfully and with no irrational accusations of disruptiveness or anything else like that). So, I'm truly sorry about the frustration you feel, but that does not justify posting this kind of tripe about me, particularly in a forum like this where I naturally feel like I have to defend myself. If all my words are really the problem, you should know better than to post accusations like this to me.
To be thorough, I must also deny making statements as if they have community support when they don't. Again, I'm especially careful to avoid doing that. That's one of the reasons I so often quote specifically from policy and guideline (which presumably has community approval), but of course that's another noodle flung around to complain about me by those who disagree... as being legalistic.
Enough with the spurious accusations, please. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Or you ignore it if it suits you, such as not answering my question about why some "wikipedia guideline" should override common usage. As to how to "force" consensus, it's done by beating up the subject relentlessly until your opposition gets tired of it and goes away. A process which can take years, of course. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- "(I will consider no response to this as acknowledgment that you're not serious)" -- sorry, no such acknowledgment is forthcoming. Go read the first three lines of WP:DE. Pattern of editing? Check. Number of articles? Check. "continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors" -- you know, the further I get in this, the more I'm convinced you fit the bill. Do you want to back off for a while and see what gets worked out without you, or do you want to follow this to its logical conclusion?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Force consensus? How in the heck does one do that? It's impossible, by definition! Even if I somehow managed to physically threaten people to get them to say they agree with me, that still wouldn't be "consensus", because the "agreement" would be a sham. You say I don't pay attention to what others say? How about paying attention to your own words?
- No, you're trying to force consensus, and refuse to listen to other people's ideas of consensus. If you were listening, you'd be typing a lot less and agreeing a lot more. See WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Anything there look familiar? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Is the fantastic definition of disruption you seem to be assuming documented anywhere? I don't mean to be pedantic, but you say this as if it's obvious that participating in a lot of discussions about related issues is wrong and disruptive. It's not like I'm just posting gibberish all over the place, though that's what you seem to be implying. I'm responding to posts and questions posed by other editors, just as I am here. I'm engaging in discussion trying to develop consensus. It might not be effective because people get tired of it, but to compare it to the obviously disruptive behavior of irresponsible RM discussion closures is out of line. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- As your continual efforts to impose European-conformism to American city names in defiance of common usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not doing anything about someone who is doing nothing wrong or disruptive is the appropriate response. That situation is not at all comparable to not doing anything about someone who refuses to even engage in discussion about his or her blatantly disruptive and inexplicable behavior questioned by multiple editors. I guess it might be fun and cathartic to take swipes at vocal people you disagree with, but both of these comments essentially comparing my expression of controversial opinions about naming guidelines and their applications to various articles to vandalism are completely out of line. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Spot on, Sarek. I was going to write something similar myself, but you put it perfectly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and by the way -- "nobody does anything and the disruption is simply allowed to continue" -- that's why you're still editing. So stop throwing stones before one of them hits your glass house. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
So, um, you guys want to take this outside or something? I think one fight per ring is a good rule and this thread seems to have strayed. --Danger (talk) 05:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Arilang1234
This user was the subject of a recent ANI on his civility and POV pushing. Most of the users condemned his actions (of which I was one), but agreed that a stern warning, not a block, was a sufficient response. I supported this result, but an admin who had previously interacted with the user noted "that there have to be consequences at some point". Arilang has (thankfully) shied away from civility issues, but I've noticed two very problematic practices that should be brought up and addressed on ANI.
The first, and most important, issue is the egregious amount of copyright violations (WP:PLAGIARISM) by the user. After encountering one of the articles he wrote, I noticed that the writing did not match the style of his talk page contributions, which led me to an investigation of the article. A quick google search revealed that much of the content was taken, or closely paraphrased, off other websites. Going over his contributions, I've noticed a host of other articles with the exact same problems. A few examples from randomly choosing articles off his Articles Created list:
- From January, 2011. This was taken from the product review on Amazon.
- Compare "Madame Chiang Kai-shek, beautiful, brilliant, and captivating, was one of the most controversial and fascinating women of the twentieth century" (Wikipedia) with "beautiful, brilliant, and captivating, Madame Chiang Kai-shek... one of the most powerful and fascinating women of the twentieth century". (Amazon)
- Compare "manipulative “Dragon Lady” and despised her for living in Western-style splendor when most of the Chinese still live in poverty... this book is the result of years of extensive research in the United States and abroad and access to previously classified CIA and diplomatic files." (Wikipedia) with "manipulative “Dragon Lady,” and despised for living in American-style splendor while Chinese citizens suffered under her husband’s brutal oppression... the result of years of extensive research in the United States and abroad, and written with access to previously classified CIA and diplomatic files." (Amazon).
- From January 2011. This was taken from an Amazon review of the book.
- Compare "Becker concedes that the American press reported the famine with accuracy, but leftists and communist sympathisers such as Edgar Snow, Rewi Alley, and Anna Louise Strong, remained silent or played down its severity. The tragedy could have been averted, Becker concludes, after the first year if Mao's senior advisers had dared to confront him (Wikipedia) with "Becker concedes that the American press (especially Joseph Alsop) reported the famine with accuracy, he notes that other Western "foreign experts" who admired Mao, such as Edgar Snow, Rewi Alley, and Anna Louise Strong, remained silent or played down its severity. The tragedy could have been averted, Becker concludes, after the first year if Mao's senior advisers had dared to confront him." (Amazon
- From January, 2011. This was taken from the product description on Amazon. The quotes used in the "review" section are directly copy-pasted off the Amazon list of reviews.
- Compare "Based on secret and classified Chinese archives documents smuggled out of China...the most important and mythologized communist China leader" (Wikipedia) with "The most important, most mythologized leaders in the history of communist China, based on long-secret documents" and "classified documents spirited out of China". (Amazon)
- The related article has been moved to my sandbox to be worked on. Arilang talk 00:34, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- From December, 2010. This was taken from the product review on Amazon.
- Compare "controls the government, courts, media, and military, and how it keeps all corruption accusations against its members in-house" with "controls the government, courts, media, and military, and how it keeps all corruption accusations against its members in-house". In this instance, the user did use quotes for the following sentence, but this initial sentence remained unquoted. An anonymous IP removed the segment with the editing summary "Removed copyright violation, new summary", but since (judging by the contributions) the IP's POV is different from Arilang's, I assume this is not Arilang's IP.
- From January, 2010. This was taken from a blog posted two days before the article.
- Compare "which is a satire on the mainland Chinese government’s attempt to “harmonize” China’s Internet with forced installations of Green Dam Youth Escort and the travails of mainland Chinese World of Warcraft players over the last several months" (Wikipedia) with "satirizing the government’s attempt to “harmonize” China’s Internet with forced installations of “Green Dam Youth Escort” and the travails of Chinese World of Warcraft players over the last several months" (Blog).
- From March, 2009. This was taken from a Guardian review.
- Compare "The Dream of Ding Village is about a community in Henan where almost everyone is infected with HIV/Aids because of unregulated blood-selling in the 1990s. Far more than any of his previous novels, it is rooted in reality, yet Yan says it is no less surreal" (Wikipedia) with "The Dream of Ding Village is about a community in Henan where almost everyone is infected with HIV/Aids because of unregulated blood-selling in the 1990s. Far more than any of his previous novels, it is rooted in reality, yet Yan says it is no less surreal." (Guardian)
- From November, 2008. This was taken from The Times Online
- Compare with "On 2007 Mr Guo threw down a gauntlet to the ruling Communist Party by declaring that he has formed a underground New People's Party with 10 million members at home and abroad, and he was the acting chairman of the new party."(Wikipedia) and "Last year Mr Guo threw down a gauntlet to the ruling Communist Party by declaring that he was acting as the chairman of the underground New People's Party and claimed 10 million members" (Times)
- From October, 2008. This was taken from this About page.
- Compare "to generate systematic, multi-facted research in the field of Chinese journalism" (Wikipedia) with "position at the doorsteps of China to generate systematic, multi-facted research in the field of Chinese journalism" (About page).
- From May, 2009. This was taken from Radio Australia.
- Compare "Amnesty International says these activities spiked around last year's Beijing Olympics, which drew many protestors/petitioners. It's increased again with the recent Chinese National Congress meeting" (Wikipedia) with "Amnesty International says these activities spiked around last year's Beijing Olympics, which drew many protestors. It's increased again with the recent Congress." (Radio Australia)
And this was just from randomly picking articles off his Articles Created list, a more detailed review of his contributions will reveal more incidents. Since this user has largely worked on topics that most Wikipedians are not interested in, the user's copyright violations have remained undetected, and the damage could be extensive. A search shows that this practice began as early as 2008, and the user currently has 8,707 edits, so there is a massive amount of content that must be reviewed.
These are not isolated cases, this has been occuring for years and it's going to be a headache to deal with. Now, you could argue that Arilang is unaware of Wikipedia's stance on copyright violations, but this is a user that has been here since 2008, it's difficult to believe he can contribute 8000+ edits without encountering WP:PLAGIARISM. Pretending to be innocent through ignorance is not an excuse. He was notified for copyright problems on one of his image uploads, other users have reverted his edits for copyright violations, he should know better.
There's also the second issue, which may be just as worrisome. In his last ANI, he promised to behave, and began to back away from the articles where his edits attract the most criticism. One of the problems identified in the last ANI included Arilang's habit of adding external links that are of his POV, even if they may be unreliable or unrelevant. He's still doing this, but with internal links, look at this article he creates and the link he adds here, under the See Also section. Judge for yourself. This seems like an attempt to flout his promise to behave, a sneaky way to POV push without triggering the scrutiny of the editors that criticised him in his last ANI.
On his last ANI, he was dangerously close to a block and users advised him not to worsen the situation, which he had been doing. While the plagiarism problems were not included in the last ANI, concerns over POV were. I'm not sure what the best response is, but I leave this up to the administrators and editors.--hkr (talk) 10:57, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- In light of the fact that the plagarism is a "new issue" (yes, I know that this is an issue that he should have been aware of, but "should have" is not quite the same as "did know") that he had not been warned about, I am not inclined to advocate for anything other than a warning.
- As far as the "sneaky POV pushing," I would advocate now not a one-week cool-off block (which I advocated last time) but a one-month ban from all China-related articles, with an explicit warning that while he could return to them after the one month, if this resumes, he will be blocked at least one month for each instance. I realize that this is a harsh sanction, but I believe that the behavior warrants it. --Nlu (talk) 11:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to protest against the "sneaky POV pushing" label, though on various talk pages I have never try to hide my "strong opinions", but when come to editing on actual articles, I have always tried to write in a neutral style. Arilang talk 11:43, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Do you really think that this section is written in a "neutral style"? Don't you see how it would be problematic to link this article under the "See also" section of its subject? Please understand Arilang, I sympathise with your POV at times, but when act like this a few days after your last ANI, editors will take notice.--hkr (talk) 11:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I do not see the adding Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary to Zhou Enlai is an act of "sneaky POV pushing". On the contrary, it is in the everyday reader's benefit that more info about Zhou as a human being being offered in wikipedia. Arilang talk 12:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- See? It's this type of response that creates the conflicts you've been involved with. A facetious response like "it is in the everyday reader's benefit" tells me that you're not taking this seriously. It's not your job to "benefit" the reader by promoting a bias. Don't you see how your contributions can be construed as POV? No amount of trouting seems to be working.--hkr (talk) 12:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- If Mao Zedong can have Mao: The Unknown Story at the "See also", why is it that Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary became a POV issue when added on to Zhou Enlai article? Arilang talk 12:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- The former is an article that has been worked on by many contributors and is (somewhat) neutral. The latter is an article that has solely been written by you, was created a few days ago with a clear POV, misrepresents the book it was written on by "selectively" quoting, and was created to (in my eyes), make a point of avoiding the scrutiny of the editors that typically frequent these articles. Strangely, the article acts as a disservice to the book (it's partially available on Google Books), which is much more moderate in its POV and nuanced in its analysis. I do not like Mao, I think the man is a mass murderer, but I care about neutrality, and this is the straw that broke the camel's back, with your last ANI so recent.--hkr (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- If Mao Zedong can have Mao: The Unknown Story at the "See also", why is it that Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary became a POV issue when added on to Zhou Enlai article? Arilang talk 12:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have clean up Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary a bit, to make it more neutral. Since the article has been created new, I shall try my best to turn it into a more neutral article, just give me a bit more time. Arilang talk 14:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think "selective" quoting might be too kind, "completely changing the tone of" is much more fitting. Compare the version of this section with the article its supposedly attributed to. Notice how the first expresses a negative tone of the subject, while the second is positive. Notice that both are attributed to same author, but make completely different points. He's taking quotes, chopping them up, and rephrasing them to make them support the POV he makes. There are ways of being critical while being neutral. Blatant attempts attempts like this are not. I've defended Arilang in the past, but I'm tired of all the final warnings. And the plagiarism issue remains.--hkr (talk) 14:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
There are also copyright problems with his images. This File:People's commune3.jpg, labeled public domain, credits "Google Image Search" as its source.--hkr (talk) 11:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Arilang1234. Yes, quite a few of my uploads did get deleted, but I also had created quite a number of articles at commons, and successfully uploaded quite a few jpegs. Arilang talk 12:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I have encountered these editing problems before in my previous dealings with Arilang, in which I have noted that he often inserts Google translated Chinese language blog and forum posts, as well as Youtube videos, as references and external links. While I believe that he added these in good faith, considering his time spent editing Wikipedia, I think he really should spend more time to familiarise with Wikipedia guidelines regarding these matters. Thus, I believe Nlu's suggestion of a one-month restriction on China-related articles to be appropriate.--PCPP (talk) 13:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree we have a problem here. If Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary is Arilang's best attempt at writing neutral encyclopedic material, then this is more than just a failure. Given the long history of prior disruption, it becomes clear his presence is a net detriment to the project. I am willing to impose a lengthy block of disruptive editing here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- And I'm not convinced he's taken in the message about copyvio after looking at the article. And using Amazon's excerpts from reviews may not be as bad as copyvio but we need links to the originals so we can see the context of the excerpts. Dougweller (talk) 15:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Main problem here are copyright issues (and frequently RS problems, as in his new article "Zhou Enlai..."). Perhaps the most constructive course of action would be as follows. Ask Arilang1234 to fix all copyright and RS problems he created, give him a couple of weeks for that, and check if he did it. If he can not, I leave this to judgment of more experienced people.Biophys (talk) 16:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- The cases that hkr showed are not a comprehensive review of all of Arilang's contributions: they are random articles taken from the list of articles Arilang created. Given his 8000 contributions, the fact that his copyright and other problems go back to at least 2008, and his unsatisfactory record in fixing the articles so far, it would be prudent to open a broad CCI on Arilang's contributions. Quigley (talk) 18:28, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Quote directly from Arilang1234-"when come to editing on actual articles, I have always tried to write in a neutral style"
- Again, let us take a look at Arilang1234's "neutral style" Boxer's anti-civilization and anti-humanity evil doing.Boxer members ...The Boxers were complete salvages and barbarians,were stupid to the extreme. this whole article which has massive sections written by Arilang1234 stank of POV and pure hatred toward some of the subjects he was written about, such as the Boxers, before admin User:Nlu thankfully deleted much of it Дунгане (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- Quote directly from Arilang1234- "Yes, quite a few of my uploads did get deleted, but I also had created quite a number of articles at commons, and successfully uploaded quite a few jpegs"
- Is he being serious here? He doesn't seem to have a single clue' regarding rules for uploading images to wikimedia or wikipedia, saying he "successfully uploaded quite a few jpegs", with no evidence that he actually understands why there were allowed to stay on wikimedia while other images were deleted, he evidently has no understanding of public domain or copyright laws. He seems to by playing Russian roulette with his edits. Several entire articles like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison between written English and written Chinese were deleted by Afd, and Arilang1234 himself said Well, your are free to create new articles, as long as they survive AfD, almost as his procedure for writing wikipedia articles was creating them with absolutely no idea of wikipedia rules regarding copyright, content, and neutrality, and seeing whether they get deleted or not.Дунгане (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have moved Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary into my sandbox to show my sincereness, and I shall try to fix the POV problem from there. Regarding other copyvio problems, give me some times, I shall fix them too. Arilang talk 19:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Cautionary note: let's not turn this into an orgy of criticism. The issues are still: given what we have seen, what measures should be taken, if any? It should not turn into a regurgitation of everything that Ariliang1234 has done on Wikipedia (and criticism thereof), nor should it downgrade into personal attacks (which it has not yet but appears on the cusp of). My recommendation still stands (but I think we need more opinions on this): no blocks, one-month ban from China-related articles (with a block to come if ban is violated). --Nlu (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are two separate issues here. 1. I do not think that creation of Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary can be interpreted as an example of WP:DE by Arilang. 2. Copyright problems. This needs to be assessed. If this is a serious problem in a large number of articles, that's one thing. Otherwise, this just needs to be fixed. When I saw that kind of things in Russia-related articles, I tried to fix them immediately by removing or rephrasing the text and leaving a notice to the user.Biophys (talk) 23:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- The earlier version of the article was clearly disruptive. Arilang's later "fixes" to the article after this ANI was brought up, shows that that he does understand what the concept of neutrality is (it's hard to argue ignorance), and acknowledges that his earlier article was pushing a POV. The idea that he is intentionally POV pushing is later reinforced by a comment on this ANI where he defends the act as a "benefit" to the reader. I appreciate that Arilang apologised, I welcome his desire to improve, but sooner or later, he has to understand there are ways to be critical without pushing a POV. User:Greg Pandatshang and User:Ohconfucius are examples of editors critical of the Chinese government, that do an admirable job at remaining neutral.--hkr (talk) 23:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly protest at hkr using "disruptive" to describe the creation of Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionary, which is a notable book reviewed by scholars such as Jonathan Spence and others. And regarding all those POV and copyvio problems, I shall be able to fix them when I have more time. Arilang talk 05:14, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Nlu, the one-month topic ban from China-related articles could work. And the plagiarism issue, although extensive, can be dealt with at CCI, with the coooperation of Arilang. But, because of the WP:COPYVIO, WP:RS, WP:POVPUSH issues related to Arilang's article creations, I propose that a longer editing restriction on article creation be implemented. Arilang should be, for a time, restricted to creating articles in his sandbox, which can be moved to the mainspace upon review and approval by an admin or uninvolved experienced editor.--hkr (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- To show my sincerity, I have moved Madame Chiang Kai-shek: China's Eternal First Lady into my sandbox to work on any copyvio problems, and I am willing to cooperate with other editors to eradicate any editing errors. Arilang talk 23:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have done a bit of rewrite on Madame Chiang Kai-shek: China's Eternal First Lady, and Zhou Enlai: The Last Perfect Revolutionaryand hope that it is OK now. Arilang talk 08:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Uh, I just found a new one on Plasma economy ("The final crushing irony... etc" from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1359670.stm). POV as well. Potentially a big problem here. Arilang1234, do you understand the problem of copyright violation? And a serious question; how much content have you copied? The one I found dates from '09. The problem we have here is that the use of Chinese sources causes a complication - we need Chinese speakers to check them for copyvio/plagarism --Errant (chat!) 09:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Cooperation with others
I have look into articles mentioned by user hkr, and have done quite a bit of cleaning up, and I shall continue to do so, until all the copyvio content is removed. I would like to stress my point again, I am here to contribute, not to disrupt. Please also have a look at the number of articles created by me: http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pages/index.php?name=Arilang1234&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia&namespace=0&redirects=none Arilang talk 09:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I was extremely forgiving last ANI thread in an AGF manner akin to "really, they won't do this again, who would deliberately get him/herself blocked after coming so close to the edge?", but I have to agree with User:Nlu and User:hrk this go. That's it's been only a few days since last "incident" suggests to me that any kind of block or topic ban would be 100% justified as preventative against further damage to the project. ♪ Tstorm(talk) 12:34, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that's a second ANI thread about the same user during just a few days, but the only thing he did between the threads was creating a couple articles about books. He is also currently making an effort to fix the alleged copyright violations [11]. Blocking/banning a user while he is cleaning up his mess would be highly counter-productive. Biophys (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree. Again, I am not questioning Ariliang1234's good faith in remedying the issue. But what I believe is that during the middle of that process, there will be a trigger for something else to occur. I think a one-month ban from the topic area will be good for him, as well as for the rest of us, to get him to take a step back from the topic area and reevaluate. --Nlu (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
- The issue here isn't that he created the articles (this is not a WP:N problem), it's the content in the articles that's problematic, when you consider that he promised to back off making controversial edits in his last ANI, a few days before. Just compare (using an example I gave on Arilang's talk) what Arilang writes in this section with the actual article it's supposedly attributed to. The former is a negative assessment, the latter is a positive one, and yet both are attributed to the same writer! I've never seen a better example of a WP:COATRACK article. Promoting a POV is one thing, misquoting and altering the meaning of your sources to promote a POV is another, and he should know better. I am not against (hell, often I agree with) Arilang's POV. The problem is how he promotes it unrepentantly, in an egregiously conspicuous and heavy-handed manner. I appreciate that Arilang promises to act in good faith, but if you're going to use Wikipedia as a soapbox (which you shouldn't!), do it with a little finesse.--hkr (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Just a note to Arilang; you need to make note of the copyvios you find and clean up so that an admin can revdel them --Errant (chat!) 11:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Also, copyvios are unacceptable in all namespaces. Try working on it offline. MER-C 13:42, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Suggested resolution
On his last ANI, Arilang was reported by another user for problems with WP:CIVILITY, WP:RS, and WP:POVPUSHing. He was let off the hook, but with the self-enforced promise that he back off from the topic that got him into trouble (Chinese politics and Chinese history), a result that I endorsed. However, a few days after his last ANI, he creates a WP:COATRACK article, violating WP:NPOV and WP:RS, on the exact topic he was specifically recommended to back off from. Contrary to my original assessment, I believe it's time for there to be some consequences. This is a user that has been repeatedly warned for his behaviour, and the cycle of "final warnings" and insincere apologies has gone on for far too long. This resolution is considerably less harsher than the one proposed by User:NicholasTurnbull in the last ANI, which proposed a wide-ranging community ban, and takes into account Nlu's suggestions:
- Arilang1234 (talk · contribs) is subject to a
two-monthone-month topic ban on editing topics relating to Politics in China and the History of China, except to fix the copyright violations listed in his contributor copyright investigation case. But, in fixing his copyright violations, he cannot add additional content in either 1) a combative or tendentious manner or 2) in repeated violation of Wikipedia policies. - Arilang can return after the
two monthsmonth, but if this resumes, his next ANI could result in a block or a longer topic ban, possibly indefinite. - This is only an article space topic ban, and Arilang can continue to contribute to discussions on the topic, if he so wishes.
I believe this will encourage Arilang to 1) step back and evaluate his actions 2) explore other topics outside the single one he is interested (and unfortunately, sometimes disruptive) in and 3) use the time to correct the copyright violations in his CCI case.--hkr (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. For a more detailed explanation on the "coatrack" incident, see the sixth paragraph under the "Cooperation with Others" subsection above.--hkr (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I think two months is too long as an initial ban. (Yes, I had advocated for sanctions in the past, but the sanctions were not agreed to as community consensus. With this becoming the first initial sanction, two months is too long.) I'd still suggest one month. I agree with the scope of the ban being limited to political and historical issues, and So God created Manchester's proposal to allow Ariliang to continue working on copyright issues, I think I agree to as well, with some reservations — I think that's going to be too much of a temptation to write in things that will be POV-pushing or perceived as POV-pushing. I don't necessarily oppose it, but I still think that a simple break from the topic is better. --Nlu (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose at this time. I think the alleged copyright violations must be carefully investigated prior to making any action. As about other issues, this reminds me the Eastern European wikibattles after looking at actions by multiple editors. Now I realize why NicholasTurnbull suggested this resolution. Biophys (talk) 18:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. The massive amount of edits by Arilang1234 will surely turn in a massive amount of copyvio, along with all the unlicensed images he uploaded, no matter how long the topic ban will be, it will possibly take years to fix the copyvio, especially since few people are actually working at the CCI project. Also as i noted above, Arilang1234 doesn't seem to understand why his edits and image uploads are copyvio or unencyclopedic, someone needs to clearly explain to him word by word, at commons people already tried to explain, but apparently he responded by merely switching to uploading at wikipedia rather than commons rather than understanding the rules. In his comment to me on his talk page, he gave the impression as if creating articles which would get deleted later by Afd was almost normal for him, as if he doesn't even know why they are deleted. It has been explained to him multiple times apparently on his talk page and deletion discussions why xxx article was deleted, but he never listened and repeated the same thing again.Дунгане (talk) 20:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. Like I have pointed out before, I will try my best to eradicate all the errors created by my wiki edition, and promise not to repeat those "silly" mistakes again. However, shouldn't user Дунгане be busy tidy up his own backyard first?
Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Дунгане Arilang talk 07:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support enaction as an interim solution. However, there are two problems here that I can see. The first is that given the massive amount of copyvio text added by the user, it is questionable whether there is much to be gained from letting him do it again after the ban has expired. It's hard to see any contributions from Arilang in the China article diaspora that are genuinely productive. If it had been the case that Arilang had made good on the various promises that he made here on AN/I in the previous thread, I would have seen this differently. However, it does strike me that Arilang is editing these articles for the purposes of WP:COATRACKing and WP:WARring on the subject, and there are other editors besides Arilang (with whom negative interactions can be observed in his contribs) who will subsequently have to be given similar editing restrictions. This is not a resolution of the problem, and it will probably return back again to AN/I or else the arbcom with this ban alone. I fail to see quite why such an endless address of this dispute is a useful application of our time. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 10:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'd like to suggest the following users are also included in the ban: Дунгане (talk · contribs), Kintetsubuffalo (talk · contribs), Quigley (talk · contribs); all of these users have been involved in warring with Arilang and have not behaved very much better (the first user currently has an open CCI). --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know how you pulled me into this. The only interaction I've had with Arilang in recent memory, besides commenting on Arilang's ANIs, is my participation in two tame talk page discussions involving multiple editors. Quigley (talk) 20:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Kintetsubuffalo is actually a pro-Taiwan user, just like Arilang. The evidence that users, who share the same opinions as Arilang (not just Kintetsubuffalo, but sternly anti-Communist users like User:C.J. Griffin), have been repeatedly reverting Arilang's edits, speaks volumes on the quality of Arilang's edits. And I agree that it's unfair to drag Quigley into this, he hasn't interacted with Arilang in a while.--hkr (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- and to User:NicholasTurnbull, if you've seen my editing history, i am rather not concerned with Arilang1234's edits and the content of his articles than his personal insults, which was why i am here. in the past two months i believe there is not an instance of me reverting an edit by arilang1234, and much of the discussion at ANI and the talk pages centered on his insults being flung around. I do not believe topic banning Arilang1234 is a good idea, rather, as in an ANI thread earlier, an editor suggested blocks for insults being hurled around, which would increase in time for every new insult. Дунгане (talk) 02:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Enough is enough. I suggest a 1 edit block on both parties if either address any of the terms Seb lists above, or anything essentially similar. Extend this restriction for 90 days. If further issues arise, address within this context. Shadowjams (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)"
- When Arilang1234 again started flinging around insults, to User:PCPP, thats when i returned into this ANI dispute, and why i'm here know even though the thread is about copyvio, not insults. I know its not binding but Shadowjams suggestion is a good idea. I will apply myself to Shadowjams suggestion as well, and suggest it be submitted as a proposal, but i have nothing to do with the content dispute and request my username be withdrawn, since i edited nothing on the articles named above by User:So God created Manchester. I do not see my username anywhere on this article, or on virtually 90% of the articles Arilang1234 edited, i have never disputed on most of his work.Дунгане (talk) 02:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Nicholas Turnbull, as a wiki editor, I have one advantage that many wiki editors are lacking: the ability to read both simplified and traditional Chinese, as most of the bilingual editors can only read simplified Chinese. By that I mean I am able to read books and academic documents written in traditional Chinese, and translate them into Chinese, to enrich the content of wikipedia. I know I have been silly before, I would just like to make one more apology, and one more promise: I will do good this time.
And, in response to your above comment, beside Дунгане, who is adding Islam stuff all over the place, and no one ever said anything, PCPP is not an angel, either, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive603 Arilang talk 10:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is indeed a useful skill of yours. However, as you probably already know, the English Wikipedia prefers English-language sources over foreign language sources, and reliable source translations of foreign language material over translations by Wikipedians (see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources). Whilst in no way would I demean your language skills in this regard or their utility to Wikipedia, I would be concerned that given your track record in misrepresenting source claims that such translations may be more of a vehicle for inserting "opaque" WP:OR into the China articles in such a way as non-Chinese speakers cannot refute the source inclusions. I would therefore be wary about endorsing your efforts in this regard. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 11:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment All my edit warring With Arilang1234 consisted of me removing derogatory remarks about barbarians, banditry, and looting on the article to which Arilang1234 added these adjectives to describe subjects, and responding to outright insults about my alleged inability to speak english on the talk page of the Boxer Rebellion article. Without previous provocation from me, Arilang1234 went ballistic, accusing me of inserting communist party propaganda [12][13] and not speaking english, despite the fact that before i even had this dispute i warned against using Chinese government Communist sources and i criticized communist ideology. Seeing as you all understand my english, i have serious doubts whether Arilang1234 was sincerely suggesting that my english skills were so poor he couldn't comprehend them or rather he was sending a cheap insult. I have never provoked him before he started making snide remarks about my language ability. Arilang sought to put blame on an entire ethnic group for the war, saying "From the above sentence, it is very clear that 剛毅(Manchu official) was the main player in the Boxer Rebellion". as he did not add this particular line into the article, i tried to explain that hatred and insults toward the (manchu) people is not encyclopedic material, and he even went more out of line, bringing in references to "prove" that manchus are barbarians, which led to another ANI thread created by Nlu after i complained to him about this.
Arilang1234 claimed he was removing "unreferenced content" which had a referenced I have never misrepresented my edits in an edit summary on that article.
There was no significant content dispute, except for the insults being hurled into the article and the talk page, which was why i brought up earlier ANI threads about Arilang1234, due to his constant claims that i speak "pidgin english", which was a rationale he gave for not paying attention to any of my attempts to talk it out with him.
And if editors actually look at my CCI it is over 6 months old, i have already checked dozens of articles and cleaned several, and i have asked 3 admins to work on my CCI case. I asked User:Rjanag to do it but received no response, my request is somehwere in his talk page archives, and i asked one of the CCI admins, User:VernoWhitney to do so but he is frequently busy hunting for other copyviolations. My requests are still availible on his talk page or talk page archives.Дунгане (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
User Дунгане's above 40 plus lines of comment, he/she used "i" about 14 times, "I" about 4-6 times, "english" 3-4 times. When a writer is confused about the use of "i", "I" and "e" "E", it is apparent that he/she really need some basic English writing tuition. My advice to Дунгане is a friendly advice, not a "cheap insult". Arilang talk 02:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
"friendly advice", from a user accusing me of speaking pidgin english, who doesn't know how to spell savages and properly grammatically arrange a sentence- "Extremely stupid", not "stupid to the extreme" is very rich. Arilang1234 accused me of speaking Chinglish and Pidgin English, which have negative connotations, and have absolutely nothing to do with capitalization" (Arilang1234 notes that i don't capitalize my i's and english), rather, the distinguishing features of pidgin english and chinglish are incomprehensible and nonsensical grammar which look foolish to a fluent english speaker.Дунгане (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- OpposeI support the resolution by User:Ohconfucius below.Дунгане (talk) 03:03, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Off topic - content issues
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Reliability of Arilang1234's translation is called into questionUser:Arilang1234 has inserted unreliable translations into articles. saying "You need to be able to read Chinese", claiming that the Chinese communist party "only" attack the KMT and not Japan, yet the majority of the wikisource article he himself wrote in chinese is about the Communist party encouraging attacks against Japan, not just the "Chinese Communist Party only attack KMT", as Arilang claimed here I put the wikisource article through google translate in the link, so everyone can read it, and see that Arilang1234 either cannot read what he himself added to the wikisource article, since he created it, or is just flat out not telling the truth. I don't accuse people of lying lightly, but it appears in this case that Arilang1234 deliberately misrepresented sources.Дунгане (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Just look at these War Cry slogans, "Japanese Imperialism" is mentioned only once, whereas KMT/Kuomintang is mentioned four times. You don't need to be a "Professor of Chinese Studies" to work out who(Japanese or KMT) was the real target of this War Cry Declaration. "Elementary, my dear Watson." Arilang talk 01:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC) |
Suggested resolution 2
I watched Arilang start off on WP, and was impressed by his undoubted enthusiasm for China-related-topics, and for starting articles which were potentially worthy subjects for this encyclopaedia. I also noted, however, the often mediocre quality of articles he created. The articles are often problematic in terms of language, content, political bias, and structure; he also tends to use a majority of Chinese language sources (often for want of English language sources because these are matters of little interest to the Western world), which poses problems for verifiability. In the past, he has invited me to examine some of his work, but not all have been sufficiently interesting to me; not all subjects are notable, IMHO. I have gone in and corrected, for example, his version of the Deng Yujiao incident, making significant content, style and referencing changes. I will just say I have not experienced any bitter confrontations with him, but his apparently poor interaction with certain others comes as little surprise, as he has very strong opinions which he expresses vocally in talk pages, but also has a tendency of permeating his content work with. I had hoped that he would have better learned the ropes of Wikipedia since he arrived in 2008, but he appears to be carrying on being aware only of WP:BOLD as policy. What I find of greatest concern now are problems with copyright.
I would suggest that, at a minimum, he should clean up all examples of copyright violations of which he is aware. To demonstrate his good faith, he should execute this in the most transparent manner by first creating a list of all articles where he is aware of such copyright issues, and then by working off that list, making progress comments to each and every article so listed. I would also suggest that Arilang worked exclusively those articles, and refrain from any further article creation or content addition elsewhere on WP. That way, others can interact and monitor the progress, and give guidance as required. I believe that Arilang (and his fellow editors) would benefit by Arilang being on civility parole and 1RR for three months. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:49, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Further to my suggestion above, I have now created a list of articles using Arilang's contributions history. He should now go through the list and remove all those where his involvement has only been minimal. The cleanup effort should proceed from there. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks to Ohconfucius for your list, I have begun to work on it. Could you tell me where did you get the list? There is another question I like to ask you, like in the case of 2008 Chinese milk scandal, my initial contributions may have POV and copyvios problem, but the content has since being removed, or integrated, does it mean that the article is now clear? Arilang talk 04:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support Arilang1234 does not need to be topic banned, his content is of no concern, rather, the insults he chucks around are extremely offensive and rude, and if Arilang1234 is put on watch for civility and rudeness i will also submit to that too.Дунгане (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- if you've seen my editing history, i am rather not concerned with Arilang1234's edits and the content of his articles than his personal insults, which was why i am here. in the past two months i believe there is not an instance of me reverting an edit by arilang1234, and much of the discussion at ANI and the talk pages centered on his insults being flung around. I do not believe topic banning Arilang1234 is a good idea, rather, as in an ANI thread earlier, an editor suggested blocks for insults being hurled around, which would increase in time for every new insult. Дунгане (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Enough is enough. I suggest a 1 edit block on both parties if either address any of the terms Seb lists above, or anything essentially similar. Extend this restriction for 90 days. If further issues arise, address within this context. Shadowjams (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)"
- Who's Seb? --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:08, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- User:Seb az86556Дунгане (talk) 03:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who's Seb? --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:08, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- When Arilang1234 again started flinging around insults, to User:PCPP, thats when i returned into this ANI dispute, and why i'm here know even though the thread is about copyvio, not insults. I know its not binding but Shadowjams suggestion is a good idea. I will apply myself to Shadowjams suggestion as well, I have little to do with content disputes with Arilang1234, i edited nothing on the articles named above by User:So God created Manchester. I do not see my username anywhere on this article, or on virtually 90% of the articles Arilang1234 edited, i have never disputed on most of his work, they contain strong anti communist POV, as i am not a communist agent, i am not interested in removing them.Дунгане (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have made a list of my edits to remove copyvios and POV content
- "Enough is enough. I suggest a 1 edit block on both parties if either address any of the terms Seb lists above, or anything essentially similar. Extend this restriction for 90 days. If further issues arise, address within this context. Shadowjams (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)"
User:Arilang1234/Records of removing copyvios content, I welcome all the constructive suggestions. Arilang talk 03:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I am happy to see you accept my proposal. I have copied over the relevant entries. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 04:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Off topic discussion in Talk page
A few editors have started a discussion in a Talk page, about whether another editor is biased and should be blocked from the page: Talk:Allegations_of_Jewish_control_of_the_media#Straw_Poll:_Carolmooredc. My understanding is that WP:Talk limits the Talk page to discussions on how to improve the article, and that discussions of blocking should instead be at a forum such as ANI. More importantly, it appears the editors are using this discussion to derail (or avoid) a substantive discussion about improvements to the article. In other words, the discussion is not civil and is disruptive. --Noleander (talk) 15:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- FYI. I just put up a detailed Wikiettiquette alert here about Harassment about the user who keeps bringing up this issue, previous rejected even at this noticeboard. I wasn't sure if I should bring it here, and needed advice. Perhaps I should have. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- [Late correction insert: Because I was upset by this latest attack, I mistakenly thought Jehochman originated the section, instead of merely agreeing with it, which I did correct on the harassment complaint above. I also missed the allusion to User:Spaceclerk directly below, whose attacks I complained about in November on Wikiquette alerts. He has been warned about it again. Sorry for any confusion. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It does seem that the talk page is an inappropriate forum. I don't see any need for punitive measures here though. User:Spaceclerk should just be warned and we should move on. NickCT (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I collapsed it, and pointed them at WP:RFC/U. That is atrocious behaviour, even done in good faith. --Errant (chat!) 15:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- What is atrocious is an editor coming to Wikipedia to push an anti-semitic POV by diddling with an article about anti-semitism. Folks, don't buy the rhetoric that is being presented here. We have a real problem going on at Talk:Allegations of Jewish control of the media. I've been asking for help for quite some time now. The participation of more uninvolved editors would help. There is an open request to rename the page that needs to be sorted. Jehochman Talk 15:55, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- So, open and RFC/U. And if I see that bloody email mentioned one more time in an effort to attack and brand Carol then I intend to take it to WP:WQA, not acceptable and it totally invalidates any issues you have :( also, accusations of anti-semitism are very serious and you need to provide evidence or retract them, I feel. --Errant (chat!) 16:01, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- What is atrocious is an editor coming to Wikipedia to push an anti-semitic POV by diddling with an article about anti-semitism. Folks, don't buy the rhetoric that is being presented here. We have a real problem going on at Talk:Allegations of Jewish control of the media. I've been asking for help for quite some time now. The participation of more uninvolved editors would help. There is an open request to rename the page that needs to be sorted. Jehochman Talk 15:55, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I collapsed it, and pointed them at WP:RFC/U. That is atrocious behaviour, even done in good faith. --Errant (chat!) 15:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
FYI, as I mention in the Wikiettiquette alert, a couple weeks ago User:Jehochman brought his complaints to WP:ANI and was soundly told both by other editors to stop it. As the closer wrote: An admin should know better than to come to ANI with what amounts to "I don't like this user's POV". Especially as within this topic any ANI thread is likely to be unpleasantly conflictual. Yes, we could continue talking here until the cows come home and accuse each other of POV-pushing... but let's not. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- All of this demonstrates the risk of editing articles that are "personal" to the editors. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:29, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see what's off topic about discussing problems with the editing of an article on the article's talk page. Jehochman Talk 18:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- "WP:Talk limits the Talk page to discussions on how to improve the article." By implication, barring a POV-pushing editor from an article could lead to improvement of the article, yes? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Bugs, while I agree with your comment at one level, I think, in context, such a discussion was more appropriate to other venues, such as WP:WQA. I'll also note that I do find anti-semitism abhorrent, but I lack insight into this situation, having never edited the article in question or any of those edited by the editors being discussed. Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Except that an editor can't be unilaterally barred by a straw poll on an article's Talk page. So, that wasn't a discussion about improving the article at all. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think the straw poll was an attempt to determine if editors of the page felt that CarolMooreDC's participation was helping or hindering the development of the article. If the goal was to determine what other editors thought, and what the next step should be, I do not think that was a misuse of the talk page. Of course she could not be banned by those editors there, but they could have decided that further steps were needed. Or Carol could have addressed the substance of the concerns and resolved them. There could have been productive outcomes. Concerns cannot be eliminated by suppression; the best medicine is sunshine. If Carol has been editing properly, she should be willing to hear concerns and address them. Jehochman Talk 20:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who created the straw poll? The article talk page is not the place to discus topic bans, not do such Kangaroo courts seem appropriate. Any ban would not have been enforceable and seems to be not a discussion about the article but an attempt to remove a user by standing in a circle and shouting “you smell”.Slatersteven (talk) 21:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think the straw poll was an attempt to determine if editors of the page felt that CarolMooreDC's participation was helping or hindering the development of the article. If the goal was to determine what other editors thought, and what the next step should be, I do not think that was a misuse of the talk page. Of course she could not be banned by those editors there, but they could have decided that further steps were needed. Or Carol could have addressed the substance of the concerns and resolved them. There could have been productive outcomes. Concerns cannot be eliminated by suppression; the best medicine is sunshine. If Carol has been editing properly, she should be willing to hear concerns and address them. Jehochman Talk 20:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
User Jehochman is continuing to disrupt the Talk page (here) with comments unrelated to the article (see WP:Talk). These latest disruptions are after notification of the ANI (and after J partricipated in the ANI above). Jehochman's behavior is disruptive, and belligerent, and amounts to bullying. J has not yet gotten the message that he should be taking his concerns about bias to another forum (such as RFC/U or ANI) rather than disrupting the article's Talk page. I suggest that Jehochman be blocked from that article. --Noleander (talk) 21:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Noleander, you are a well known partisan in this dispute. Would you please give it a rest and let the uninvolved provide feedback. It's not helpful for the same crew of editors to keep restating their wikilegal interpretations. Wherever I go with concerns, the same editors keep popping up with the same wikilawyerish objections to the venue, to the form, etc. But nobody wants to address the merits of the matter. This is not helpful.
- Noleander, your remark is pretty disingenous. Carolmooredc asked me a question, asked me to explain my actions. So I did, as plainly and truthfully as I could. There's nothing wrong with that. When editors are challenged, they have the right to explain what they did. [14]
- Please see WP:COIN#CarolMooreDC where I have raised my concerns, at the suggestion of several uninvolved editors. Jehochman Talk 21:31, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
It looks to me (and I have been in this situation my self) that both ar at fault. Taking what is a content dispute to numerous boards in order to out ban each other. As Jehochman is an admin he should have steped back and not escalated a situation he is clarly involved in. I think that the 7 days avouding each otehr solution might be a good one.Slatersteven (talk) 21:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to point out that the editor who started this also has a problem with Jehochman's edits, so perhaps mediation is the best solution. CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I starter neither the current ANI threat nor the current WQA thread. Please don't accuse me of doing somebody else's actions. I started a COIN thread after an uninvolved editor suggested that I do so. What the heck? There's a content dispute and behavioral concerns. Attempting to get those matters resolved is not a wikicrime. Also, Slatersteven, would you please declare whether you are an involved or uninvolved editor. That will help others to understand what's going on. Thank you. Jehochman Talk 00:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think I edited the Jewish control of the media page some time ago (or a similar page at least). I also seem to recall having run ins with you in the past. But as I beleive I have blaimed the pair of you I don't see the relevance. Unless you are saying that your actions are wholey in keeping wiht good editing and adminship I fail to see why I am showing bias (and if I am not why do I need to declare an interest?). Ahh here we are ::[[15]] over a month ago, and hardly a great indicator for a strong point view one way or the other. I can’t find any other examples of involvement in this area, but I have only gone back a couple of months. So I would have to say based on this that no I am not an involved user. If I have missed any involvement please post the diffs.I take it then you reject the idea of a volantary disengagment from each otther for 7 days?Slatersteven (talk) 12:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- This ANI filed by Noleander is about Spaceclerk creating, and two involved editors (Brewcrewer and Jehochman) signing on to, an attack against an editor instead of responding to concerns about a Jehochman edit Noleander and I had expressed over several days. Since Noleander and I do not coordinate, he put this up at pretty much the same time I put my complaint on Wikiettiquette about Jehochman who I mistakenly thought had created, instead of just signing on to, the attack. So recommendations about me and Jehochman belong at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#WP:Harassment_by_User:Jehochman. I do wish people would stick to the real issue here: three involved editors launching personal attacks instead of dealing with issues brought up by two other editors. Thanks! :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 20:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Too many places
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. This is now being discussed here, on COI/N and WQA. It'd be nice if we could get all involved to stop constantly opening discussions on different fora about each other. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Very old AFD
I don't know where to ask, but this deletion discussion has been going on for a long time. --Perseus, Son of Zeus 20:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- This issue probably should've been raised at WP:AN, since it seems you were seeking for a closing administrator – but I've gone ahead anyway and closed it myself, since consensus seems pretty clear. HeyMid (contribs) 20:59, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
From Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nico di Angelo, it seems that this AfD is not listed on a daily log. If it was never listed, I suggest that it be reopened and relisted. There are other AfDs at User:DumbBOT/IncompleteAfD#Non-transcluded discussion pages that seem to need attention. Flatscan (talk) 05:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Maria Pavelić issue?
I am asking admins to arbitrage about the article of Maria Pavelić. First sentence is what bothers me, for explanation see Maria Pavelić talk page.--89.164.140.130 (talk) 00:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- IP-hopping to repeatedly revert other editors in a slow POV edit war on a little-known article stub. Coming here (of all places) for a minor content dispute. Eeep... Doc talk 00:32, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Editor, single. Where would you like me to go whit this issue?--89.164.140.130 (talk) 00:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have some (bad) experience editing in and around articles related to the Independent State of Croatia, and this is much more complex than a glib little boomerang remark. Articles in that area have been subject to repeated attempts to white wash the regime and the atrocities committed during WWII. I'd recommend Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts or filing a WP:Request for comment. AniMate 00:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, the geopolitical ethnic noticeboard looks like it gets no traffic at all. Try an RfC and request page protection. With the article protected the edit war can stop and with the RfC you can get some outside opinions. AniMate 00:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your input. White washing the regime of NDH and the atrocities they committed during WWII is exactly what comes to my mind regarding this issue. The way I see it, user Wustenfuchs is changing Croatian fascist leader into a Croatian Poglavnik because it looks less bad.--89.164.140.130 (talk) 01:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Notifying Wustenfuchs of this thread would be nice, and it's actually required. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}} to do so if you wish: but you need to tell him about it. Doc talk 01:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Wustenfuchs has again added Croatian Poglavnik in the first sentence. Word Poglavnik is often used in Croatia by the neo-Nazi groups to describe and magnify the name of Ante Pavelić. In the past, prior to the establishment of the NDH Ustasha movement, the word Poglavnik was rarely used. Then it was given the meaning that is not linked to any political or Croatian legal tradition. I don't see on any of two Mussolini wives(Rachele Mussolini and Ida Dalser) Wikipedia pages that says; wife of Italian Duce Benito Mussolini. --89.164.200.4 (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, I don't see on Eva Braun Wikipedia page that it is writen; the longtime companion of Führer Adolf Hitler.--89.164.200.4 (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- You can't have looked very hard. First sentence: "Eva Anna Paula Hitler née Braun (6 February 1912 – 30 April 1945) was the longtime companion of Adolf Hitler and for less than 40 hours, his wife". AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that's what User: 89.164.200.4 is talking about. The issue seems to be whether the word "Poglavnik" should be used in the lead, apparently comparing the word to "Duce" for Mussolini and "Führer" for Hitler. The Eva Braun article does not use the word "Führer", "fascist leader", or any other description for Hitler in the first sentence. I had never heard the word "Poglavnik" before today and so I take no position as to whether it is appropriate or inappropriate to use it. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello! Well, You, for user with IP adress, you can call me nazi, you can call me fascist, you can call me a communist, you can call me an idiot, this is not about name calling. I wrote "Croatian Poglavnik" because Ante Pavelić becomed famous under his title. Moreover, he worn this title as leader of Ustaše since 1929 until 1945. If someone didn't heard a word "Poglavnik", that is a problem of an individual. As I said, he becomed more famous under this title, and maybe some of you didn't hear about Pavelić at all. Another thing, all books mention him as Poglavnik, now, this leads me to the conclusion that some of you never read a book or biography about this man. Any historian or any person informed about him will know what Poglavnik means, and ther is an explanation in article Poglavnik what this title ment. And please, user with IP adress, don't tell other people what I think, you aren't psychiatrist, neither I told you what do I think.--Wustefuchs (talk) 19:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Look, you are obviously well fascinated and interested in Ustashe and NDH, since that is all you edit. Soo, getting an unbiased opinion from you is not very likely. You yourself have created an article about Poglavnik, you also know that word Poglavnik is too often used by the Croatian neo-Nazi groups to describe and magnify the name of Ante Pavelić. Never do they call him Ante Pavelić or Pavelić, it is always a Poglavnik for them. Just like Nazis never called a Hitler by his last name, it was always a "Führer" for them also. By simple Youtube search we have numerous results that confirm my thinking;
- So obviously I oppose that the word Poglavnik is used in the lead.
- P.s. You have reverted an article, again, despite a warning that you may be blocked from editing if you continue edit war on Maria Pavelić. You shouldn't have reverted an article until consensus is reached. Yet you did so, and that says a lot about you.--89.164.200.4 (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
You are the one who reverted the article at start, with no sources. This is just a provocation, becouse I can't get you seriously wih You Tube as source... and no, like I told you earlier, all books mention him with title Poglavnik... You said that neo-nazis call him just with his title (even though this is so false and unsourced) like Fuhrer, but you can see, ther is also his name "Ante Pavelić" together with title Poglavnik... so what is your point? It seams that you are the one who is promoting his political views and at the same time provoking me.--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:23, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who is disputing that he was known as Poglavnik? What does it matter that books mention him as a Poglavnik? They also mention Hitler as Führer, they also mention Mussolini as a Duce, right? But do we see on their better halfs Wiki pages that it is writen; "the longtime companion of Führer Adolf Hitler" or "wife of Italian Duce Benito Mussolini"? No we don't. Do you get this? It is hard to reach a consensus with a person who thinks that he is been provoked. What does it matter who reverted the article in the first place? You received a warrning that you may be blocked from editing if you continue this edit war. Yet you didn't listen, but choose to continue edit war. Regarding the link to Youtube, all those video praise the work of Ustashe, NDH and Poglavnik. So my point was proven, Poglavnik is mainly used by sympathizers of Ustashe, NDH and Pavelic. Just like Führer and Duce is used by sympathizers of Nazism and Fascism. --89.164.130.92 (talk) 20:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The purpose of this noticeboard is not to resolve this content dispute. Try asking for a third opinion or filing a request for comment. AniMate 23:25, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who is disputing that he was known as Poglavnik? What does it matter that books mention him as a Poglavnik? They also mention Hitler as Führer, they also mention Mussolini as a Duce, right? But do we see on their better halfs Wiki pages that it is writen; "the longtime companion of Führer Adolf Hitler" or "wife of Italian Duce Benito Mussolini"? No we don't. Do you get this? It is hard to reach a consensus with a person who thinks that he is been provoked. What does it matter who reverted the article in the first place? You received a warrning that you may be blocked from editing if you continue this edit war. Yet you didn't listen, but choose to continue edit war. Regarding the link to Youtube, all those video praise the work of Ustashe, NDH and Poglavnik. So my point was proven, Poglavnik is mainly used by sympathizers of Ustashe, NDH and Pavelic. Just like Führer and Duce is used by sympathizers of Nazism and Fascism. --89.164.130.92 (talk) 20:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Requesting Mohamed Bouazizi snowball close
This article, the subject of intense current interest due to the situation in Tunisia, has been marred with a spurious AfD notice for some time. The rationale is two words long and there has not been a single vote to delete. Please put this one out of its misery and allow Wikipedia's readers to find what they are looking for without needless deletion notices to distract them. TiC (talk) 01:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Just checked this article, it's not a candidate for snow close as there are keep and oppose votes. But yes, the rationale is "Recentism" just as you said. I'd say let it run it's course. KoshVorlon' Naluboutes Aeria Gloris 13:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I closed it before seeing this here. However, I would like to point out that, if you had read the rationales, you would notice that the keep and the oppose were arguing for the same result. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 19:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Deletion review of Mikie Da Poet
A newly registered user, User:PureSnipe, created the sixth (yes, sixth) deletion review of the article Mikie Da Poet; see the DRV log. Soon after I comment, another newly registered, User:Musiclover312, shows up in defense of the article (in what could more accurately be described as a long-winded rant). Seeing as how this is the sixth deletion review of this article, and both new users seem to know their way around this process very well (new users finding deletion review? not suspicious at all... hmm...), it is likely that they are not only sockpuppets of one another but a previous editor and/or DRVer of said article. Since I've already commented on the DRV and wouldn't feel right speedy closing it as disruption based on my hunch, I've brought it here in case it's worth doing a CU on these accounts. --Kinu t/c 02:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Uncivil response to vandalism warning
It started as a minor content dispute over at Burj Khalifa, but 86.64.186.61 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) persisted in making his edits, despite the consensus of myself and other editors. I also sought advice from help desk. However, I am unhappy about this uncivil response (repeated in the edit summary) as a response to my warning the user about their continued disruptive editing. Astronaut (talk) 03:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Left a civility warning. If they continue, please let us know. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
PMAnderson - another controversial/disruptive page move: Juan Carlos I
PMAnderson has once again unilaterally moved an article instead of submitting a move request via the WP:RM process.
Back in August (August, not November, this is important and easy to get confused about) was a discussion and decision about the title in which I was the closing uninvolved non-admin (trying to help with the backlog); the decision was to move Juan Carlos I of Spain to Juan Carlos I, as proposed:
Note the detailed explanation in my move decision comment there and the lack of any challenge to that decision at that time.
A subsequent discussion from November 2010 proposing that Juan Carlos I be moved to Juan Carlos:
This proposal was closed as no consensus.
For the last couple of days there has been a new discussion about all this (which I've followed but managed to restrain myself from participating, thank you very much), along with a move war apparently based on a misunderstanding which resulted in a 24 hour lock of the page just yesterday[16]:
Note the edit summaries of the brief move war that preceded the talk page discussion for those two reverts (User:GoodDay, odd) and the intervening moves (User:Kotniski, even) from yesterday:
- GoodDay: "moved Juan Carlos I to Juan Carlos I of Spain over redirect: There was no RM consensus to move this article to Juan Carlos I)"
- Kotniski: "moved Juan Carlos I of Spain to Juan Carlos I over redirect: this has been stable for long enough - do a move request if you want to change it)"
- GoodDay: "moved Juan Carlos I to Juan Carlos I of Spain over redirect: No consensus was reached for change to Juan Carlos, in last RM (November 2010))"
- Kotniski: "moved Juan Carlos I of Spain to Juan Carlos I over redirect: see explanation at talk - mover was looking at wrong discussion)"
Also note that the person moving the article yesterday, GoodDay, thought the discussion/decision he was challenging was the one from November, not August. On the talk page, this oversight was acknowledged.
Yet despite all that controversy, PMA took it upon himself to move the article soon after the lock expired despite any evidence whatsoever that there is consensus support for it[17], and clear evidence that there is opposition to it [18]
In the discussion just cited above, here is how PMA rationalizes engaging in the very behavior he has been warned repeatedly to not engage in[19]:
- This would be reversing an improperly closed move request [edit: from 5 months ago, and after there was another intervening move request], closed by a non-admin who is deeply involved in such issues[my involvement in WP:NCROY issues, especially 5 months ago and prior, was very light], despite extenxive opposition. This was the 5-3 #Requested move (August 2010), above; not the more recent failed move request. This was not consensus then; it is not consensus now. If this cannot be simply reversed, we may have to request that the closer be sanctioned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The title since the improper closure is not stable. It was protested then and now, and a request to move it to a third possibility has been undertaken in the meantime. A move reuseat will only confirm this; but the proper placement without any consensus is where it was before this process began; which was the title for years. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with my move decisions being reviewed by an uninvolved neutral and possibly reversed; I welcome it, though I suggest after 5 months the grapes are way past being merely sour and I agree with Kotniski that at this point the only proper course to take is reassess consensus via another WP:RM discussion.
People accuse me of being disruptive for posting too much on talk pages about title issues, but while I might dream of pulling a stunt like this, I wouldn't actually do it. And believe me, it is a stunt, and PMA knows it (warned and even blocked more than enough times), but he obviously doesn't care. Is there anyone who does care?
Instead of reverting PMA's unilateral move myself, I decide to file this AN/I.
I know what I think should be done in this case, but my history with PMA suggests I best just report the facts and stay out of it, which is what I'm doing. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is growing wearisome. Is there a page-move or article-titling controversy that PMAnderson is not at the center of? It never ends. I'm beginning to believe that, if he were removed from the matter entirely, 90% of all article-title wars would evaporate overnight. After seeing this go one for years, I am beginning to feel that he's an aggrivating force in these controversies, and something, perhaps some sort of community imposed editing restrictions, may be in order at this point. --Jayron32 05:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- There was an edit war on this unstable page before I acted; I explained my action at length on the talk page as restoring the status quo ante, in the absence of consensus. Any admin who sees consensus, or any group of editors who can establish one, is free to act on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:23, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Born2Cycle is again making a content disagreement with his own (improper) action into a conduct dispute.
- The placement at Juan Carlos I is based, if anywhere, on this move request, which Born2cycle himself closed as a move.
- He is not an admin.
- He has a deeply held position on what titles to use on monarch articles, and closed in accordance with it; if he were an admin, he would be considered involved.
- The discussion was at 5-3, when he moved it.
is is manifestly improper; and there has been a discussion over the last several days protesting this move as ungrounded, including another replacement of the article where it was. (The explanation of my move as restoring the long-standing stable title is at the end.) Until an uninvolved admin decides there was consensus to move this page from its old title, where it was stable for years, it should stay there, shouldn't it? If an uninvolved admin finds there was consensus to move, he is free to do so. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if Born2Cycle were reminded not to close move discussions unless the result ismanifestly clear; and not to drag ANI into his content disputes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- If anybody feels I should have dragged ANI into this myself, please say so, and I will apologize; but I try to avoid drama on this much-crowded page. If so, please consider it done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- As Fastily deleted the blocking redirect as uncontroversial, you should not have moved the page with no discussion. I've locked it in its current location to avoid move warring, but I think it belongs where the last RM discussion placed it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Was the last move discussion (actually the next-to-last, since Born2Cycle's action inspired another move request; there is no consensus on where his POV would place the article) properly closed? If not, why should an improper action have binding force? If any editor from one POV can close move requests to suit himself, the nationalist editors will have a heyday moving articles to suit their various Causes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- As I said before, Fastily deleted the redirect because of the move discussion, so I'm hesitant to call it an "improper action". And the last move request showed there was no consensus to move it away from the then-current title. You overrode two closed move requests without discussion. Regardless of what I may think of other parties' discussion styles, That Was Not Cool. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:48, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Was the last move discussion (actually the next-to-last, since Born2Cycle's action inspired another move request; there is no consensus on where his POV would place the article) properly closed? If not, why should an improper action have binding force? If any editor from one POV can close move requests to suit himself, the nationalist editors will have a heyday moving articles to suit their various Causes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- As Fastily deleted the blocking redirect as uncontroversial, you should not have moved the page with no discussion. I've locked it in its current location to avoid move warring, but I think it belongs where the last RM discussion placed it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- If anybody feels I should have dragged ANI into this myself, please say so, and I will apologize; but I try to avoid drama on this much-crowded page. If so, please consider it done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion linked to above is not the only time Born2Cycle has been closing move requests to suit his preferences; he was also roundly criticized fot it here; and there may well be other cases; if may be useful to look at his move log. Can we at least agree that this should stop? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree. As a single-purpose campaigner for a particular approach to article naming, Born2Cycle cannot in any reasonable way be considered to be uninvolved in RM discussions. I agree that this should stop, and if B2C does not explicitly commit to refraining from RM closures, enforcement should follow. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Said closure was in August. Sanctioning him for it at this point would seem a bit much. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c) The page was moved 5 months ago. Is Born2Cycle actually doing this now? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Said closure was in August. Sanctioning him for it at this point would seem a bit much. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree. As a single-purpose campaigner for a particular approach to article naming, Born2Cycle cannot in any reasonable way be considered to be uninvolved in RM discussions. I agree that this should stop, and if B2C does not explicitly commit to refraining from RM closures, enforcement should follow. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion linked to above is not the only time Born2Cycle has been closing move requests to suit his preferences; he was also roundly criticized fot it here; and there may well be other cases; if may be useful to look at his move log. Can we at least agree that this should stop? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I voted on the proposal, so am not uninvolved. I didn't know Born2Cycle wasn't an admin, and the custom is that only admin closures are really binding when the close isn't obvious. However the latest name is now stable. Since there is so much anger, the most obvious solution is for some kind of majority poll where several possible locations are listed for 'discussion' but where there is no prejudice against any name because of precedent. Thoughts? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) All I can say is that the name Born2Cycle moved it to didn't look stable to me. It was opposed at the time; it is protested now; and another move request in November suggested the article be moved to Juan Carlos, on the same arguments as Born2Cycle used. A discussion of all possibilities is the only way to reach consensus; but what if there isn't one - again? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- In my suggestion, there wouldn't need to be consensus; just a majority (no prejudice against any name because of precedent). If we are entirely honest about it neither name actually has "consensus" in any meaningful sense of the word. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 07:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The only reason the title is "not stable" is because someone admitted they were looking at the wrong discussion. And the other issue is that you (Pmanderson) have been previously told that your habits in moving pages is not welcome on this project, yet you still see fit to act without a consensus behind your actions.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Please put it back to the stable name (i.e. the one we had for many months before GoodDay through a mistake, and PMA in full awareness, came along and started tampering with it). If individuals are going to be allowed to just come along and impose their own preferences over consensus, we may as well abandon the discussion process altogether, and just decide on article titles according to who's best at maniuplating the move-warring game.--Kotniski (talk) 06:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The stable name is where the article was for at least five years; Born2Cycle's isn't. see comment above after edit conflict. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 07:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh, I have to just say this since PMA is predictably trying to make this about me. Back then, five months ago, I was trying to help with the WP:RM backlog and I might have been a bit overambitious in that effort, including closing proposals that were not unanimous (if you limit yourself to only the unanimous ones, you can't help much at WP:RM). Anyway, I was called to task for that (though not for this one, and despite the fact that it's very common and uncontroversial for many other non-admins to do this as far as I can tell), and I've essentially stopped making potentially controversial decisions (and the WP:RM backlog grows).
The incident related to my behavior which PMA is questioning here is from five months ago and was not even questioned until the last day or so. The incident related to PMA's behavior that I'm questioning here is from less than five hours ago.
By the way, I have explained in more detail how and why I made that closing decision five months ago here. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh, I have to just say this since PMA is predictably trying to make this about me. Back then, five months ago, I was trying to help with the WP:RM backlog and I might have been a bit overambitious in that effort, including closing proposals that were not unanimous (if you limit yourself to only the unanimous ones, you can't help much at WP:RM). Anyway, I was called to task for that (though not for this one, and despite the fact that it's very common and uncontroversial for many other non-admins to do this as far as I can tell), and I've essentially stopped making potentially controversial decisions (and the WP:RM backlog grows).
For information, I've opened a new discussion at Talk:Juan Carlos I of Spain about what the article should be titled. <moan>It seems always to be me who ends up starting the discussion process after disruptive behaviour, never the disruptive users themselves</moan>--Kotniski (talk) 13:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
The August 2010 RM, should've been closed by an administrator. Though I supported having the page moved to Juan Carlos I (back in August 2010), I still object to the RM ruling & subsiquent move. GoodDay (talk) 14:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, and have complained to Born2cycle a couple of times in recent weeks about his practice of moving articles to the title that matches his personal preferences, having "judged" the arguments subjectively rather than seeking consensus. I also see some inconsistency in his attitude to this move - compare with his comments at User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Peter_I_of_Russia where he agrees that controversial moves made without consensus should be reverted as soon as possible. Deb (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- You're conflating two different scenarios, Deb.
- Potentially controversial moves that occur without going through WP:RM (like what we were discussing at User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Peter_I_of_Russia, and what PMA did here) are widely held to be inherently wrong (regardless of whether the move is "right" or "wrong") and need to be reverted quickly and swiftly. Then, if someone really wants to move it, they are encouraged to go through WP:RM as should have been done in the first place.
- Decisions and moves that are made normally via the WP:RM process, but are questioned, including maybe because it was contentious and closed by a non-admin, are not inherently wrong and so should not be swiftly reverted but should be brought to the attention of admins, either at WT:RM or here at AN/I, so that an admin can review the closing and decide whether the decision was reasonable or not (and potentially reverse if not). This occurs at least a few times a year.
- I believe my position on this has been consistent for years, if not forever, and I'm pretty sure it reflects the consensus of the community on how these matters should be handled.
If consensus has changed... that the rule about non-admins not closing contentious discussions should be strictly enforced, then, yes, I agree those kinds of moves should be swiftly reverted too. But as far as I can tell, non-admin closings of contentious discussions occur multiple times every day, and nobody seems to mind. It's not reasonable to have a consequence which treats these non-admin closings as being inherently wrong when the community does not generally treat them as being inherently wrong. That would be an inconsistency. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- You're conflating two different scenarios, Deb.
Two proposals
Withdrawn
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty much sick of these two editors appearing here over and over again for the same reasons, so I offer:
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Withdrawn
Proposal #1 and 2 above clearly did not represent the general feelings of the community, so I withdraw both of them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:27, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Alternative proposals
Proposal #3 withdrawn
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Proposal #4
WP:NCROY is marked as deprecated or failed proposal, as it clearly doesn't have anything resembling site-wide consensus, and appears to be a platform from which move-wars are regularly launched.
- Support as proposer. *** Crotalus *** 15:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support, per the growing inconsistancies of monarchial article titles. There was a time when we had'em all nice & neat under Monarch # of country. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The exceptions are clearly delineated, despite the amount of argument they entail, and we need something of the sort to get consistency for historical names.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:48, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose It isn't a proposal; it has been a guideline for four years - probably longer - and it has been our practice for much longer; I believe the distinction between policy and guideline is younger than this page. The convention has evolved to cover a complex area of article naming; those who would simplify it either to establish an artificial consistency or to have no consistency at all have always rebutted each other. This is the middle ground. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per Sarek of Vulcan. There are many possible approaches to naming this sort of article, and the guideline provides stability for thr bast majority of articles within its scope. --17:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose procedurally. If there is a desire to change or deprecate a guideline, it must be done through discussion on that guideline's talk page, not through a discussion of a limited number of admins on ANI. Resolute 17:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - it's useful, particularly for new users, to have some guidance with the aim of achieving consistency - but maybe the conventions ought to be frozen for a while to give us all a chance to recover. Deb (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose: a necessary naming convention for a field with confusing naming options. Also, this is the wrong venue to make the decision. Will Beback talk 19:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Proposal #5
That Born2Cycle be admonished not to close move requests made through WP:RM. This is slightly more restrictive than most non-admins; but since he has been
- closing move requests without noting that he is a non-admin - and this discussion shows this has led to some people assuming that he has made an admin close
- closing move requests without consensus
- closing them on issues on which he has a strong POV, in accordance with his POV. Admins should not close issues in which they are involved; why should non-admins?
this seems reasonable and minimal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support. If he has stopped doing this, so much the better. if not, it's time to stop. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support, as only administrators should close & make rulings on RMs. GoodDay (talk) 16:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's goes against what Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions says. I agree that this particular close probably wasn't suitable for a non-admin but non-admins have always been allowed to close certain RMs so it seems perverse to penalise someone on the grounds you give. Dpmuk (talk) 16:41, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have been told in the past that there is no need to note that you are a non-admin when closing a requested move and indeed there is nothing that says you have to at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions. Therefore I think your first point is unfair. No comment on the rest. Dpmuk (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Most non-admins do, however, say Non-admin close; it may not be necessary, but it will save a reviewing admin trouble. Non-admins should be free to close requests where there is no doubt of consensus - and no admin action is required. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well I haven't been saying NAC since this comment on my talk page and because of what it says in the instructions (when I have been pushing the boundaries a bit, and only a bit, recently to help clear the backlog I've made it clear in the edit summary that I was a non-admin). It has also become accepted practice for non-admins to use G6 if necessary after an uncontroversial close (many more admins seem willing to do a G6 than close a RM so this speeds things along). I'd agree that non-admins shouldn't be closing anything that requires more complex action than a G6. Dpmuk (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The point is only really important in conjunction with the other two problems. If everybody who looked at B2C's closes had said, "Yes, of course, anybody would do that; it's obviously consensus", we wouldn't be here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's a standard nobody can meet. Many RM closes can go either way, and the outcome often depends on who closes it and how they decide it. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Which is exactly why someone with strong opinions[20] on article naming should not close them. Will Beback talk 23:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's a standard nobody can meet. Many RM closes can go either way, and the outcome often depends on who closes it and how they decide it. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The point is only really important in conjunction with the other two problems. If everybody who looked at B2C's closes had said, "Yes, of course, anybody would do that; it's obviously consensus", we wouldn't be here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well I haven't been saying NAC since this comment on my talk page and because of what it says in the instructions (when I have been pushing the boundaries a bit, and only a bit, recently to help clear the backlog I've made it clear in the edit summary that I was a non-admin). It has also become accepted practice for non-admins to use G6 if necessary after an uncontroversial close (many more admins seem willing to do a G6 than close a RM so this speeds things along). I'd agree that non-admins shouldn't be closing anything that requires more complex action than a G6. Dpmuk (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Most non-admins do, however, say Non-admin close; it may not be necessary, but it will save a reviewing admin trouble. Non-admins should be free to close requests where there is no doubt of consensus - and no admin action is required. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose In most, if not all RM closers, there are hurt feelings. It doesn't matter if the user closing is an Admin or not. Singling out Born2Cycle because he makes many RM closings, that many admins are not willing to do, is a bit much. He should be rewarded not admonished. I have suggested in the past, that there should be a non admin privilege, similar to Rollback, that allows non admins to close RM discussions. This way, not every non-admin can close an RM, and closings can be monitored more easily, and the tool taken away for abuse, like Rollback privileges.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The issue with Born2Cycle isn't just that he isn't an admin, but that he strongly opposes naming conventions that don't strictly follow the common name principle. He is not a neutral party. Both of the royalty article moves he made in contradiction to the royalty naming convention. Will Beback talk 23:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Requested moves says "Non-administrators should restrict themselves to: Unanimous or nearly unanimous discussions after a full listing period (seven days)." Has B2C been closing discussions contrary to that? 28bytes (talk) 16:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. See Talk:Juan Carlos I of Spain#Requested move (August 2010) and Talk:Queen_Victoria#Requested_move, the two other people have have noticed. How many more there are I don't know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support -- he has been closing discussions that were borderline enough to make admin closes preferable. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support: a partisan should not be closing move discussions. The user is not a neutral observer in page name disputes. Will Beback talk 19:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I'm curious... Will, do you believe this rule, "a partisan should not be closing move discussions", applies only to me, or also to all the partisans who have voted in support of this proposal so far?
Also, please remember that everybody has a bias... the issue is whether that bias is put aside in making decisions from an NPOV. When was the last time you think I made a non-NPOV decision in an RM discussion? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Giving a view in an ANI thread does not make one a partisan. Will Beback talk 23:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I'm curious... Will, do you believe this rule, "a partisan should not be closing move discussions", applies only to me, or also to all the partisans who have voted in support of this proposal so far?
- Oppose a formal ban but would suggest that B2C consider voluntarily excusing himself from closing RM discussions on topics where his strong views on naming (which I share in general) are well known. Not only should closers be fair, they should be seen to be fair. However well B2C interprets consensus, his known and entirely legitimate POV will mean that a significant grouping of editors will feel, fairly or otherwise, that the decision has been prejudged. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Proposal #6
As I see it, there are two problems here:
- The initial NAC close of the Juan Carlos I move discussion by User:Born2cycle, which was a poor decision since Wikipedia:Requested moves (which B2C is no doubt familiar with, having edited it himself on occasion) specifically advises non-admins against closing discussions that are contentious.
- The unilateral subsequent page move by User:Pmanderson, when he knew there was serious contention about the title.
To avoid problems of this nature in the future, I propose:
- Born2Cycle be advised not to close any move requests, and
- Pmanderson be advised not to make any unilateral page moves unless the move is clearly non-controversial and has not been subject to any debate in the past. He is advised to take all but the most obviously non-controversial move proposals to WP:RM for broader discussion.
- Support, as proposer. 28bytes (talk) 18:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Whatever my action may have been, it wasn't unilateral; I knew there was a problem because there were loud complaints at WT:NCROY, and I found more on the talk page. I restored the status quo after other people objected to the move; isn't that proper when the propriety of a move is plausibly disputed and there is no consensus? If somebody can see consensus or make one, fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are often complaints about moves - those are not excuses to justify the unilateral decision to move it back. Complaining about a move is not the same as supporting an immediate revert. The proper course in egregious cases of improper moves is to take it to an admin or file an AN/I, as I did here, or request it be moved back as uncontroversial at WP:RM (though that usually applies to only recent improper moves). Starting a move war is not the right answer. When questioning a decision/move that went through WP:RM, the proper course is to ask another admin to review the decision, not to unilaterally decide to revert it yourself. If an admin agrees the decision was improper, then the admin will revert it. But you know all this, yet you reverted anyway. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Although WP:RM specifically advises that non-admins should not close discussions that are contentious, that is not common practice. In these days of a large WP:RM backlog, it is common practice for non-admins who are knowledgeable and experienced with naming policy and the RM process to close all kinds of discussions, including relatively contentious ones. It is unfair to single out one of those non-admins for engaging in behavior five months ago that the community largely considers acceptable despite what WP:RM states.
PMA has been advised to not make unilateral moves before. He continues to do it, as long as he feels it's justified, and continues to defend it. See above. These are empty words. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Go to RFCU or pretty much anyplace else
Good gravy. If the solution to a problem requires a poll with six options, ANI is not the venue of choice. Please move this to a more appropriate venue or seek actual dispute resolution. Protonk (talk) 18:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Can someone please look past all the disruption above about an incident from 5 months ago and address the incident in question (from yesterday), please? --Born2cycle (talk) 18:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It was. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Implement the community sanction for which there is already consensus
At Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names#Proposed community restriction concerning Pmanderson, there is a community sanction proposed by me which I believe has community consensus for implementation. It looks like it was forgotten about after being split to a subpage, but just needs an administrator to evaluate and close the discussion, and to note the sanction at WP:GS. Sandstein 00:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would agree that Sandstein's proposal had consensus, but perhaps was forgotten, after being moved to an ANI subpage. Mathsci (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I just filed this at the BLP noticeboard, but the more I looked into it, the more it seems like sock- or meatpuppetry is involved. Rather than re-post it here, I'm just leaving this pointer, since BLPN is not as well trafficed as here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
OneTonyCousins - incivility once again
The User:Onetonycousins has been blocked before (see here) for incivility towards other editors in his edit summaries. Despite this, he hasn't seemed to have learned to be civil. Recent examples include:
- Calling editors warnings/notices to him "usual nonsense." (see here)
- A personal attack at me in an edit summary (see here): "Way to ignore the explanation. Linking to that article is factually wrong. Nothing to do with your political bullsh*t, that's been resolved; you have your ROI. Now take your ignorance elsewhere." - this in response to me amending something to match an agreement made between other editors which he didn't even get involved in.
- The following edit summary (here) "Fixed page butchered by morons."
- Another edit summary tirade (see here): "Restored material deleted by antifootball man. Get a life, it's not wikipedia's fault that nobody gives a sh*t about gaelic games"
I believe a longer block than the previous 36 hour one should be imposed to try to get the message through to OneTonyCousins that such bad faith and snide personal attacks in his edit summaries aren't acceptable on Wikipedia. Mabuska (talk) 11:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Incivility, trolling, etc
Shah 88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Shah 88 is posting trolling insults. "Indon" is an offensive and derogatory word for Indonesians, hence this is pure trolling. There are other references to "Indonesian barbarians", etc. I'm not aware of the full history but he's recently been the subject of a wikiquette alert. While i removed his placement of userboxes on article talk pages, I haven't been involved with him and these insults were directed at other not me (I'm often mistaken for an Indonesian on wikipedia). --Merbabu (talk) 13:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- PS - additional diffs. [21]], [[22]], and even in his [summaries|]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_national_football_team&diff=prev&oldid=408566146%7Cedit summaries. He's been asked nicely to calm down. --Merbabu (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Response to ANI notice. --Merbabu (talk) 13:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've issued a 24 hour block. User:ErrantX has nominated the image for deletion on Commons. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It occurs to me that if the graphic had said "African-Americans are trash", the indef-hammer would have been brought down swiftly. 24 hours for such blatant racism/ethnicism is way too generous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, speaking of personal attacks, that's pretty insulting, Bugs. I don't typically hand out indef blocks to people who have clear block records after three years of editing unless a pattern is demonstrated. I'm sorry if you perceive me as being racist; certainly, I don't think I've ever done anything to support that view. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)Thanks, Bugs, for clarifying. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:45, 19 January 2011 (UTC)- Clarification: In no way did I intend to paint Moonriddengirl as racist. I hold the admin in high esteem. I merely argued that 24 hours seems too lenient for such outrageous ethnic bashing. Certainly the editor can be given a longer or indefinite block if such behavior is repeated. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The user has stated very clearly as a Malaysian an attitude towards Indonesians and is not the slightest concerned that such an attitude does not fit with editing on Wikipedia - I would consider that sufficient room for sterner caution, regardless of whether the comments and behaviour was for one day, or only a few edits SatuSuro 14:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- If the editor learns nothing from his block, he'll be back here, and with a longer block the next time. The editor can choose to be cooperative, or he can choose not to edit here any more. It's up to him at this point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The user has stated very clearly as a Malaysian an attitude towards Indonesians and is not the slightest concerned that such an attitude does not fit with editing on Wikipedia - I would consider that sufficient room for sterner caution, regardless of whether the comments and behaviour was for one day, or only a few edits SatuSuro 14:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Clarification: In no way did I intend to paint Moonriddengirl as racist. I hold the admin in high esteem. I merely argued that 24 hours seems too lenient for such outrageous ethnic bashing. Certainly the editor can be given a longer or indefinite block if such behavior is repeated. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- It occurs to me that if the graphic had said "African-Americans are trash", the indef-hammer would have been brought down swiftly. 24 hours for such blatant racism/ethnicism is way too generous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
FWIW, his continued use of the slur here is concerning. It was uploaded to Commons after his block here and after he received notice that his prior image had been nominated for deletion. SatuSuro, you're an admin on Commons; can anything be done about an image name that embeds such slurs? Can it be moved? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:27, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Between MRG and me, we've arrived at the conclusion that it depicts Malay fans stepping on a banner or scarf that says "Indonesia". Taken in isolation, it could be the same as a Red Sox fan stepping on a Yankees pennant. But is it strictly sports, or is it more than that? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ok so much chatter here and hes back as a sock User:Indog and in good form - sorry cannot answer about commons - will be back about 10 to 12 hours - way past my sleep time SatuSuro 15:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've blocked the sock and indeffed the name account. It's so blatant I'd be likely to wonder if it was an impersonator if it were not for the slur at File:Pijak mafla indon.jpg. That makes it look more like a colossal act of burning bridges. I'll see if a checkuser can identify a range, but a rangeblock may have unacceptable collateral damage. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:04, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ok so much chatter here and hes back as a sock User:Indog and in good form - sorry cannot answer about commons - will be back about 10 to 12 hours - way past my sleep time SatuSuro 15:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Done http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Pijak_mafla_indon.jpg&action=delete - cheers SatuSuro 16:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
(Having been invited here to check) It looks fairly Unlikely that User:Indog and User:Shah 88 are related. The only commonality here is the same country. –MuZemike 18:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, MuZemike. I've reset the block for 24 hours, and I'll leave another admin to decide what response to his unblock request is appropriate. It looks like somebody was trying to take advantage of this situation to give him the boot, unless it was somebody sharing his anger at the subject of harassment, but either way it was not Shah. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:45, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Another account
This account which was blocked last week has a similarly offensive user name, the same modus operandi, similar targets, etc. Could a check user be performed to see whether there is technical evidence to back up the behavioural evidence. many thanks --Merbabu (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
block request
User:Wiki Wikip Wikipe is a new vandalism-only account plastering AfDs on all sorts of pages. Please block. Schwede66 17:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The first nomination was correct; that article wasn't in English. HeyMid (contribs) 17:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The second is a major city.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I declined the AfDs as bad-faith nominations, but I don't think it's time to block quite yet. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- The second is a major city.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Come on people, AGF only goes so far. New users who never attempted to edit Wikipedia before don't show up out of the blue and start nominating articles for AFD. This is obviously the sock of a disgruntled ex-Wikipedian. --Jayron32 19:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- So why it's not blocked yet, it's a typical trolling account? Ibluffsocall (talk) 01:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Need protection, rounds of spanking, or whatever
Can someone full-protect WP:ACTIVIST for a week? There are redirect wars and all kinds of crap going on. I've participated in editing the page but don't care which version of the page is locked as long as it gets the situation calmed down. Hopefully a week's rest will give everyone time for reflection. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Basically - disruptive edits aimed at having the essay deleted seem to be all too present. If an essay is not deleted at MfD, then edits aimed at effecting a deletion are, IMHO, disruptive. Collect (talk) 18:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Done I'm sure it's the wrong version, but then it always is. Next time, try WP:RFPP or WP:ALPHABETSOUP. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I've suggested an RFC on this essay. Fresh eyes are required. See Wikipedia talk:Activist#RFC: general content issues. --TS 21:27, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Suggestion filed at Wikipedia talk:Lamest edit wars#Activism. Fences&Windows 01:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
User:Southstudentxx
I am not sure if this is the right place but I found a bunch of accounts that were recently created that are adding reviews to book articles. They are all written as 8th graders. They appear to be a school project and all the accounts are User:Southstudentxx with the numbers 1-15 (so far) in place of the xx. ~~ GB fan ~~ 19:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- See if you can find the teacher account and direct them to Wikipedia:School and university projects and Wikipedia:WikiProject Classroom coordination and Wikipedia:Online Ambassadors. These are not sock accounts and are perfectly legit, but it looks like they have a bit of a misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. I wouldn't go blocking them per WP:BITE, but it would be much more fruitful to educate the teacher and let them instruct the students on how to do it "right" rather than to chase down each kid... --Jayron32 20:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
IP blocked is a school district
Obviously the ban was placed for good reasons, my fellow classmates can screw around but I'm not sure but I thought I would inform the admins that the IP blocked belongs to the Corona-Norco Unified School District. So, I would advise them about this. The handle elementary, middle school, and high schools. So it would be fact that the edits would take place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.47.14.123 (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Which IP are you talking about? We can't take any action without that information. --Danger (talk) 20:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- To which IP are you referring? The one from which you posted is not currently blocked. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
New user neutrality board
I've gone ahead and set up Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/users (WP:NPOVNU). I've done this in response to concerns that we see all the time, namely that editors have no clear recourse for dealing with accounts that persistently and aggressively push a point of view in violation of NPOV, but who violate no other policies.
The point of the board should be as an alternative to a user RfC, or one step before it. In the case of users who don't realize they're perceived as regularly violating NPOV, the board could act as a gentle corrective, perhaps making further dispute resolution unnecessary. My thinking is that we could try it for an experimental period—say, six months—then decide whether it's worth keeping. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 20:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh lord, I fear there are more problems with that than its worth. Lets give it a try, may be my concerns are unfounded The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a good idea at all, and have explained why (briefly) on the talk page. I'll see what others think before commenting further - I think debate is probably better conducted there than here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not opposed to this, yet. The issue should be handled at RFCU but that is almost never helpful. This alternative, maybe. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Why not? What's wrong with any idea that is an experimental alternative (apparently optional) step before our very first completely toothless step in DR? ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 23:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin proposed this board in the middle of a (failed) WP:COIN which I believe was retaliatory against me for a Wikiquette complaint. The editor repeatedly has stated he wants me to stop editing certain articles, even though his POV is clearly very strong. So look for a battle of the edit diffs there! For this reason alone I think it should AfD until it is approved by the community.
- The board has this tag, but does not link to the specific policy under which it was created so we can learn what that policy is. A search of the word “trial” was not helpful. Please direct us to the appropriate spot here and in the template. CarolMooreDC (talk) 23:45, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hang on, Carol, what you posted above was misleading, because it implies I brought a complaint to COIN against you. I commented on COIN that a neutrality board might be a good idea, but nothing more. The board idea is not connected to you or any other user. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Can I point out that there appears to be a serious problem with this, as has just been noted on the 'neutrality board' talk page: this 'noticeboard' is proposing to implement a policy that doesn't as yet exist. It appears to be based on the assumption that someone working within Wikipedia policy can still be 'tried' for 'non-neutrality'. This runs counter to basic Wikipedia norms as I understand it, which suggests that the content not the contributor should be the concern. Unless and until Wikipedia policy is changed to reflect this (which I would oppose most strongly), this 'board' has no justification to start touting for business, and has about as much credibility as a recent attempt at a 'talk page straw poll' kangeroo court (which incidentally seemed to be involving some of the same issues, if not necessarily the same people). AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- That template was thoroughly misleading, it gave the impression that board had some kind of weight or recognition in policy. I've replaced it with a {{proposal}} template. Fences&Windows 01:17, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't add that template, and I don't mind which template is used. There's a discussion about the board at WT:NPOVNU. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Legal threats by Gtamaster12814
On Northwestern High School (Hyattsville, Maryland), Gtamaster12814 continued to add a source of a personal interview that was clearly unreliable. User first contacted Gyrofrog, an administrator, to claim that he "will continue to add to NWHS wiki page despite your ignorant removal." After Gyrofrog explained to him that a personal interview was not a reliable source, Gtamaster12814 decided to threaten me, claiming that I had 24 hours to readd the information or he would contact Wikipedia for my removal. Logan Talk Contributions 00:08, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's not a legal threat - a legal threat is threatening legal action, not threatening to report you to Wikipedia. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, s/he also claimed that I was being libelous. That's a legal accusation. Logan Talk Contributions 00:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's still not a legal threat - a legal threat is a threat to take legal action, and the user has not actually threatened to take legal action. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Use of legal terms like 'libel' can, I think, be violations of WP:LEGAL, but in this case, a new user who sincerely thought that what he learned about MLA citations in high school applies to Wikipedia in the same ways, I just gave him a 24-hour block for the edit-warring and a warning about using legal language and threats. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you Logan Talk Contributions 00:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- OK, fair enough :-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Good lord- that whole article looks like an official school web site. Needs a serious neutral rewrite. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, s/he also claimed that I was being libelous. That's a legal accusation. Logan Talk Contributions 00:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have also blocked 74.46.218.29 (talk · contribs). Same ISP and location as the IP Gtamaster12814 was using. Elockid (Talk) 00:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Something fishy on Pelican State beach
Without intending to be insulting to the uploader, File:26 pelican.JPG is one of a series of not very good images of a man on a beach and I would not use it to illustrate any subject. The file was uploaded to Commons today. Geographically unrelated IPs have been adding the image to various articles, which seems, well, odd. The IPs that I've noted so far are 75.212.88.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 75.87.252.190 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 80.178.14.162 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 205.143.67.250 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). If anyone wants to do some digging, the image is also used on the French-, German-, and Spanish-language Wikipedia. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I dunno, I would have offset the man a bit more to give prominence to the horizon but IMO it looks kinda nice. Tarc (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- It seems harmless enough. If DC is concerned, the best bet might be to take it to a discussion page on Commons. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:30, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Photographs of places which contain a person as a prominent subject is a related discussion. The uploader in that case is different, but the issue is the same: deliberately adding images posed to feature this one individual without clearly identifying him in many articles on California beaches. Bugs, I disagree that Commons is the place to discuss this - as far as Commons would be concerned, they are properly licensed images that could be useful. The issue is that they have been uploaded precisely to saturate many articles here with the what is recognizably the same person. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I thought it was the quality of the photo that was at issue, and which could be discussed at commons. While it's true there's a guy in the photo, I downloaded it and blew it up and he's not identifiable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- To me, the biggest issue is the saturation-bombing of one person's appearance in a large number of articles. The middling quality of the images is also an issue, but it is a much smaller one. I uploaded cropped versions of the previous uploader's images, but I'm not going to have free time to do that for these for a while; eventually, I will end up doing that, though. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:53, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I thought it was the quality of the photo that was at issue, and which could be discussed at commons. While it's true there's a guy in the photo, I downloaded it and blew it up and he's not identifiable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Photographs of places which contain a person as a prominent subject is a related discussion. The uploader in that case is different, but the issue is the same: deliberately adding images posed to feature this one individual without clearly identifying him in many articles on California beaches. Bugs, I disagree that Commons is the place to discuss this - as far as Commons would be concerned, they are properly licensed images that could be useful. The issue is that they have been uploaded precisely to saturate many articles here with the what is recognizably the same person. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- It seems harmless enough. If DC is concerned, the best bet might be to take it to a discussion page on Commons. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:30, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Adding another one: 89.204.153.210 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Having read through the thread Gavia immer pointed out, it is clear that Commons users Albianmoonlight and Sfcamerawork are one and the same. I don't think we need someone using sockpuppets to spam Wikipedia with their amateur photos - I mean, we've got Shankbone for that... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- Funny. But I must ask, since I'm an ignoranimous: What rule are these photos violating? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- I do not know that they are breaking any rules, per se, but the addition of the same poor quality image to many articles runs contrary to the guidance of WP:IMAGE. Don't you find it odd that IPs seemingly originating in different countries are all interested in the same image? What about the sockpuppetry on Commons? I have worked out what's going on here, but in the interest of WP:BEANS, this is a possible vandal tactic - add the same innocuous Commons image to many articles on several different wikis and then change it to something like File:Virgin Killer.jpg. That is not the case here, but when something abnormal like this is brought up, one should probably look a little deeper than wondering which rules are being broken. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
This is apparently related to a gallery in San Francisco. Perhaps someone from the WMF could walk over and ask them to cut it out. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)