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::I'd tend to agree, but a community ban gives editors confidence to revert. [[WP:3RR]] doesn't apply when reverting ''banned'' users, but does when reverting ''indef blocked'' users. Arguably, an indef'd user with no admin willing to unblock '''is''' ''de facto'' banned... but I wouldn't want to revert repeatedly and risk myself getting blocked. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 16:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
::I'd tend to agree, but a community ban gives editors confidence to revert. [[WP:3RR]] doesn't apply when reverting ''banned'' users, but does when reverting ''indef blocked'' users. Arguably, an indef'd user with no admin willing to unblock '''is''' ''de facto'' banned... but I wouldn't want to revert repeatedly and risk myself getting blocked. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 16:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''': on top of sockpuppetry, even after a year, he has not learn to be civil. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elockid&diff=372385973&oldid=372263657 This personal attack] recently, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Bongwarrior&diff=prev&oldid=303501766 an attack] from last year. <span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px"><b><font color="#4682B4">[[User:Elockid|<big>E</big>lockid]]</font></b></span> <sup>(<font color="#99BADD">[[User talk:Elockid|Talk]]</font>)</sup> 12:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
:'''Support''': on top of sockpuppetry, even after a year, he has not learn to be civil. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elockid&diff=372385973&oldid=372263657 This personal attack] recently, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Bongwarrior&diff=prev&oldid=303501766 an attack] from last year. <span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px"><b><font color="#4682B4">[[User:Elockid|<big>E</big>lockid]]</font></b></span> <sup>(<font color="#99BADD">[[User talk:Elockid|Talk]]</font>)</sup> 12:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''': per what TFOWR said; I used to just say editors need this protection, but if no progress is made on a recent (but separate) matter, I may have to revise this opinion to mean "both admins and editors need to be protected". [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 17:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
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== Technical problem with sections in new format == |
== Technical problem with sections in new format == |
Revision as of 17:15, 14 July 2010
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Propose Topic Ban
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
For User: Wittsun, on all articles and edits relating to race, ethnicity, and religion. Per [1] and [2].
Supports and opposes can go below. Also feel free to comment on either of the two original threads, if you wish. Stonemason89 (talk) 20:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support - having seen the article Six Families of Berlin, which Wittsun deprodded, it is clear that Wittsun holds extremist views on this subject matter. The page was an anti-Lebanese racist hoax/synthesis, and it is clear that Wittsun's views show that he cannot edit impartially on the subject.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Claritas (talk • contribs) 22.39, today
- How so? Being only one of two German speakers on that thread, I was able to evaluate the referenced sources for notability. As for stonemason89's partisan fixation to get me banned, I encourage others to evaluate his 'contributions' such as the supposed widespread misuse of the metaphor 'black hole'[3] and his close following of the 'redneck shop'[4]]--Wittsun (talk) 06:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles have been accepted by the Did You Know editorial team as legitimate, and were even featured on the main page, so you're going to have a very hard time getting people to agree with your statement. Also, simply creating an article about a particular topic, as long as the topic is notable and appropriate for an encyclopedia (unlike, for example, the aforementioned Six Families of Berlin), is not in an of itself a reason to suspect bias. If everyone on Wikipedia was afraid to write or contribute to articles about certain topics because they thought other people would judge them for it, then Wikipedia's growth and comprehensiveness would be greatly harmed. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles are borderline conspiracy theory and seem to have temporarily escaped the attention WP:ZEAL editors such as the ones piping up here for a topic ban. Unfortunately better material has been deleted or so mangled as to be hardly understandable.--Wittsun (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Conspiracy theory"? Hardly. Your comments about "racism" being a code word of the Frankfurt School, however, are conspiracy theories. Stonemason89 (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles are borderline conspiracy theory and seem to have temporarily escaped the attention WP:ZEAL editors such as the ones piping up here for a topic ban. Unfortunately better material has been deleted or so mangled as to be hardly understandable.--Wittsun (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles have been accepted by the Did You Know editorial team as legitimate, and were even featured on the main page, so you're going to have a very hard time getting people to agree with your statement. Also, simply creating an article about a particular topic, as long as the topic is notable and appropriate for an encyclopedia (unlike, for example, the aforementioned Six Families of Berlin), is not in an of itself a reason to suspect bias. If everyone on Wikipedia was afraid to write or contribute to articles about certain topics because they thought other people would judge them for it, then Wikipedia's growth and comprehensiveness would be greatly harmed. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- How so? Being only one of two German speakers on that thread, I was able to evaluate the referenced sources for notability. As for stonemason89's partisan fixation to get me banned, I encourage others to evaluate his 'contributions' such as the supposed widespread misuse of the metaphor 'black hole'[3] and his close following of the 'redneck shop'[4]]--Wittsun (talk) 06:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support temporary topic ban -- 6 months, say? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose as Stonemason89 is an activist who himself is biased when it comes to racial issues.--Wittsun (talk) 06:28, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Since when is being anti-racist being biased? In my opinion, you're lucky this isn't a full ban. Support per Stonemason's reasons. (By the way, I really think this dispute belongs as ANI instead of the main noticeboard.) Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Being 'anti'-anything for ideological reasons is an admission of bias. By the looks of things admins have shown more tolerance towards your presence here than you show others.--Wittsun (talk) 07:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, I think it's more than a little ironic that someone who defends Podblanc would accuse other people of not showing "tolerance". Second of all, Wikipedia has a very definite policy regarding WP: FRINGE views, as opposed to mainstream ones; white nationalism is definitely the former, while being opposed to racism is generally regarded as the latter. You may think that's unfair, but it's how Wikipedia operates. WP: NPOV means that we try to avoid adding our own bias to articles, but it does not mean that we have to give FRINGE viewpoints the same amount of weight as mainstream ones. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- For someone who relies on a vast amount of FRINGE terminology to make himself remotely understood, I'd say this is a case of the 'pot calling the kettle black'[5] -- another metaphor that apparently has been overlooked by your eagle eye for 'anti-racist' reinterpretation.--Wittsun (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't use "fringe" terminology. I don't know what you're talking about. Stonemason89 (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- For someone who relies on a vast amount of FRINGE terminology to make himself remotely understood, I'd say this is a case of the 'pot calling the kettle black'[5] -- another metaphor that apparently has been overlooked by your eagle eye for 'anti-racist' reinterpretation.--Wittsun (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, I think it's more than a little ironic that someone who defends Podblanc would accuse other people of not showing "tolerance". Second of all, Wikipedia has a very definite policy regarding WP: FRINGE views, as opposed to mainstream ones; white nationalism is definitely the former, while being opposed to racism is generally regarded as the latter. You may think that's unfair, but it's how Wikipedia operates. WP: NPOV means that we try to avoid adding our own bias to articles, but it does not mean that we have to give FRINGE viewpoints the same amount of weight as mainstream ones. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Being 'anti'-anything for ideological reasons is an admission of bias. By the looks of things admins have shown more tolerance towards your presence here than you show others.--Wittsun (talk) 07:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Since when is being anti-racist being biased? In my opinion, you're lucky this isn't a full ban. Support per Stonemason's reasons. (By the way, I really think this dispute belongs as ANI instead of the main noticeboard.) Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support ban related to race and ethnicity only. There doesn't seem to be an issue in regards to religion. -Oescp (talk) 08:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- As a heavy-handed editor yourself[6] with a history of over-involvement in ethnic disputes this vote is hardly surprising.--Wittsun (talk) 12:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at Oescp's comment on Spylab's talk page, it appears as though he conducted himself civilly. He didn't attack Spylab, he merely asked Spylab about some of the latter's edits, which Oescp didn't understand the rationale for. Nothing wrong with that. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, Wittsun is right. How rude of me to ask someone to elaborate on a particular edit. That's completely unacceptable, but in the future I promise not to engage in such heavy handed editing. -Oescp (talk) 00:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great New Year's resolution. Another one of your 'helpful' NPOV edits, here:--Wittsun (talk) 13:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Again, Oescp did nothing wrong; racially motivated crimes and reverse discrimination are two different topics. Stonemason89 (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment While I support a topic ban as a minimum, why aren't we talking about an indef block? An editor with a history of making unacceptable edits to push their political views has no place in Wikipedia. Nick-D (talk) 08:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support temporary topic ban (six months as per Sarek is ok). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 11:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Who was it that said "Many laws make bad men, as bad men make many laws"? -- Answer: Walter Savage Landor--Wittsun (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't know that apothegm; personally, however, I'm more for quid leges sine moribus vanae proficiunt?, as Horace put it. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 12:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - seems excessive, only one block for 24 hours, nothing here warrants such a punishment. Requests for a full ban are laughable. Off2riorob (talk) 11:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment - I would like to get some more feedback on this thread; while I think we've come pretty close to reaching a consensus (the consensus appears to be that Wittsun should be topic-banned, but maybe only for 6 months), I still think getting one or two more participants in this discussion would be a good idea. I'm not an admin myself, so I don't have the authority to close this thread or to issue bans; I'll have to leave that up to someone who actually does have admin status. Stonemason89 (talk) 02:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support - After looking through the users edits, it seems that Wittsun cannot edit in the topic-related articles with a NPOV attitude, and is distinctly biased in their editing in the topic. As such, I think that a topic ban would be a good idea. Skinny87 (talk) 07:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support - after a long attempt at dialogue with this editor at Talk:Hate crimes against white people and Talk:Reverse discrimination, it's becoming clear that he's either trolling or unable to maintain a WP:NPOV on this topic. Empty Buffer (talk) 10:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- The guidelines are: WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. As for 'anti-racists' trying to edit phenomenon that effects white people specifically there is clear WP:COI --Wittsun (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is this editor really arguing that only racists should be allowed to edit particular articles? RolandR (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- It appears so, which is what has prompted me to close this discussion as fairly obviously supported by the community. Black Kite (t) (c) 13:56, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is this editor really arguing that only racists should be allowed to edit particular articles? RolandR (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Block review
Rodhullandemu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
I've blocked Rodhullandemu for 24 hours. It's been suggested that because he's an admin, I should get a second opinion. While I don't think that's really true - why get a second opinion for blocking an admin, and not get one for blocking any other established editor? - I'm always open to feedback, so I'll bring it here.
Quick history:
- Rod and Malleus were part of an argument at Wikipedia:BN#Asking for adminship back.
- Rod told Malleus to stop arguing at BN, and take it somewhere else.
- Rod went to Malleus's talk page, and rather pompously repeated the same. [8]
- It may come as a surprise to some of you that Malleus doesn't like admins coming and being pompous on his talk page.
- For the next few hours, Malleus, Rod, and some kibitzers traded childish insults.
- It's worth noting that Malleus did not post to BN again.
- Rod told Malleus that he was "less important to me than the occasional dogshit on my shoe". [9]
- Malleus told Rod basically the same thing. [10]
- Rod blocked Malleus for 31 hours for personal attacks.
- I blocked Rod for 24 hours for a personal attack.
- Moni3 unblocked Malleus.
- I asked Rod to assure me he wouldn't go back to Malleus' page, and I would do the same. He wouldn't so I didn't unblock. There's an unblock template up there now.
To be clear, I would not have blocked Rod if he hadn't blocked Malleus. Malleus is a big boy, can take care of himself, and was being rude too. But it is completely unacceptable to block someone you're arguing with, especially for "personal attacks" on yourself, especially when you just called him a name on his own talk page. If Rod truly believes that Malleus should have been blocked for "personal attacks", I don't see how he can believe that he isn't guilty of the same. If he doesn't believe that, then I suppose I could change my block rationale to "grossly inapproriate use of admin tools".
On Rod's talk page, Rod is saying I should not have blocked him because he's an admin. On the contrary, I think admins should actually be held to the same, if not a higher, standard. He's also saying he should have been given a warning (really? It's not obvious you don't call someone dogshit, and then block them when they dare to answer back?), and that I've further insulted him by not placing a template on his talk page (??).
I welcome a couple of things:
- Some feedback on the block.
- Some feedback on my opinion in the extreme inappropriateness of the use of admin tools against someone you're arguing with, on their own talk page, right after you call them dogshit.
- Some feedback on whether this misuse of the tools is worth an RFC/U or recall attempt.
Thanks. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- FYI, I unblocked Malleus. I don't have an opinion on the block. I wouldn't have blocked Rodhullandemu, just because I don't like to block other editors. But I do agree with Tony1's suggestion that Rodhullandemu should go through a admin review. First, to come to a user's page and patronize him as an admin is abhorrent. To continue to bait the user, to attempt to silence him for using valid (albeit profane) arguments is simply stupid. It has no basis in any effective administrative duties. It's petty and childish. To block the person with whom you're arguing is astonishingly, breathtakingly abusive. Rodhullandemu does not seem to grasp these cause and effect relationships per the unblock requests and exchanges with Floquenbeam on his talk page. Stunningly, he uses the argument that he writes GAs or something. I don't get that. Does Malleus then have the right to be more abusive or ...gosh, I have no idea... something, because he's written over 20 FAs?? That's just weird. --Moni3 (talk) 03:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Seems like a reasonable block to me. Welcome to the club of those who have blocked an admin, Floquenbeam. Though I imagine you'll soon also be member to those who have had their blocks of an admin overturned before it expires. It's pretty rare that these things stick, valid as they may (or may not) be. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- FWIW, I just declined the unblock request, and he stated that that was unacceptable. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- The argument at Malleus' talkpage was escalating and the blocks certainly put a stop to it. However, it cannot be acceptable for an admin to use their tools in an argument against their opponent. Given Rod's volume of work on the encyclopedia, I can only assume that he lost his cool and didn't think through the ramifications of using his tools in such circumstances. His subsequent comments on his talkpage show he is still missing that point. Since the block is preventative, not punitive, as soon as he regains his composure and realises that he crossed a bright line, he should be unblocked. I don't feel that there's any pattern of tool abuse here to require any further action. --RexxS (talk) 04:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam acted appropriately in this situation. Rod has a long pattern of good work both as an editor and as an administrator. However, current consensus is greatly opposed to blocks by involved administrators. Thus, the act of blocking by Rod was questionable. Hopefully this issue can be resolved without hard feelings by any parties. Rod disengaging totally from the situation, while difficult, is the quickest route to such a non-negative resolution. Lewis Windsor (talk) 04:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good Block You do NOT use your admin tools to win an argument. Let the dust settle and cooler heads prevail. I think we'll see one red-faced admin tomorrow. N419BH 05:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Each of the users who are involved in this have something to worry about.
- Rod: Rod was involved in the content dispute, engaged in grossly inappropriate commentary, and was responded to with the same kind of commentary. Rod was not in a position where he was permitted to use his tools (as they do not exist for that purpose), but blocked Malleus anyway for attacks that were made within half hour of the block being applied. Basic principle that administrators are expected to refrain from issuing (or modifying) blocks in response to personal attacks directed at themselves (especially where there is a level of involvement in the dispute).
- Flo: It appears Floquenbeam responded to this block by blocking Rod. The stated reason in the log was personal attacks/harassment (that were made some 2 hours ago), as well as "Rod is going to have a hard time unblocking Malleus; I've blocked him for 24 hours. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)". Blocking an administrator for refusing to unblock someone (or because they blocked someone inappropriately) is not what the blocking tool exists for. If it was to prevent Rod from going to Malleus' talk page, and it would have been applied irrespective of the incidents here, then fine. However, Flo stated this block would not have been applied had Malleus not been blocked. This is problematic.
- Moni3/Courcelles: Meanwhile, Moni3 unblocked Malleus with the log reason "Oh for Pete's sake". Courcelles was going to unblock Malleus also. This was after both admins could see that Rod was blocked. No unblock request was made and it was unlikely that an assurance would be made that such rhetoric would not continue. It is unlikely that any other editor in those circumstances would have been unblocked in the same fashion, even if the block was inappropriate. Is this a situation where a couple of admins were enforcing their own views about civility blocks? Possibly. It would have been appropriate to unblock Malleus had Rod not been blocked; it would have been appropriate to unblock Malleus if Rod was also unblocked. However, the appropriateness of unblocking any single party (alone) in the circumstances is more than just questionable - it is problematic.
- Conclusion: The person who has the most to lose (or has a greater chance of losing it) is Rod for multiple issues, but even that has been somewhat pacified by the act of keeping him blocked while unblocking the other party. Frankly, either way, based on what actually has happened here, I think all of you involved in the incident have at least something to worry about either in your use (or attempted use) of tools, your judgement, or in your conduct. These issues are certainly likely to crop up when (or if) it goes to ArbCom. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ncmv, a clarification: I didn't block him for blocking Malleus, I blocked him for a personal attack because he blocked Malleus for one. A subtle but important distinction, IMHO. In other words, I would have been perfectly willing to overlook his violation of WP:NPA if he hadn't blocked Malleus, because both of them were acting foolish. But I was no longer willing to overlook this violation of policy after he blocked Malleus for having the audacity to talk back to an admin when insulted. Also, I don't understand this "two hours ago" comment; he was blocked within 10 minutes of making the comment. And finally, I was perfectly willing to unblock Rod if he would agree to stay away from Malleus' talk page; he was unwilling to agree. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- If he inappropriately blocked someone for NPA (which he did), the block should have been lifted and you should have opened the dispute regarding his conduct here. Instead, you took matters into your own hands and blocked him (as a tit for tat as if this is a war or something). Your judgement was seriously flawed and had a much more chilling effect than any block on Malleus could ever have. You say you blocked him for NPA, yet you sat on your hands and refused to unblock based on technicalities. If Malleus was unblocked without any unblock request or assurance, be it by Moni3 or anyone else, I don't see how you could reasonably believe that the scales were being balanced by keeping him blocked. I'm not going to merely glare at Rod's poor judgement and ignore the other serious problems here (due to an overreliance on the incomplete picture you provided at the outlook of this review); it shouldn't have taken Wehwalt to approach you to unblock - you should have done it yourself. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ncmv, a clarification: I didn't block him for blocking Malleus, I blocked him for a personal attack because he blocked Malleus for one. A subtle but important distinction, IMHO. In other words, I would have been perfectly willing to overlook his violation of WP:NPA if he hadn't blocked Malleus, because both of them were acting foolish. But I was no longer willing to overlook this violation of policy after he blocked Malleus for having the audacity to talk back to an admin when insulted. Also, I don't understand this "two hours ago" comment; he was blocked within 10 minutes of making the comment. And finally, I was perfectly willing to unblock Rod if he would agree to stay away from Malleus' talk page; he was unwilling to agree. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cliques abusing their admin powers for their friends? Unpossible. Q T C 07:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Malleus was acting like a fool. However Rodhullandemu acted like a much bigger fool. I don't particularly have a problem with the block of Rodhullandemu - I see he's now stomped off with a big dramatic retirement announcement. As is always the case with editors who make big dramatic retirement announcements, the project is better off without him. Problem solved, nothing more to do here. Friday (talk) 06:28, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Endorse block: I haven't looked at the specifics of this interaction, but I understand there were personal attacks flying back and forth and Rod should have simply the more mature of the two and taken the issues to AN/I rather than responding with personal attacks of his own and then abusing his admin tools to "win" an argument. The block should remain until Rod has calmed down and recognises that blocking someone for personal attacks against himself, while making personal attacks of his own, is a gross misuse of the admin tools. Since this is an isolated incident I don't feel that this alone will warrant admin recall, but Rod needs to appreciate that a 24-hour block is the least of his worries: the way he treated the tools could cause the community to lose faith in him, and the longer he takes to accept that he was in the wrong and promises to use the tools in a responsible way, the more likely that is. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 08:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hardly see how he is going to accept anything when he's declared that he has retired, presumably as a result of this block (or its handling). Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly he's not ready to do so at the moment; I suspect he will quickly regret declaring himself "retired" and apologise profusely, promise not to do it again, etc. In which case fine, give Rod a second chance if he promises not to abuse the tools again. If he sticks to his "retirement", then good luck to him; we certainly don't need admins who abuse their tools to fight with other editors and then throw a strop about it when blocked for blatant misuse of the admin tools he promised to use responsibly. I would say give him a few days to cool off and acknowledge his own fault; if he doesn't, perhaps admin recall will be necessary. Just my opinion. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 14:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- The point that is being missed in all of this is that the method by which we decide whether administrators should be desysopped or not, based on their tool-use, is well-established - those methods have never included blocking. As for incivility, editors and admins are on equal playing ground...which still leaves the question unanswered - why is one editor being unblocked without any requests while the admin is being still blocked despite making a request earlier? Because "he started it"? Or has he shown a tendency to reblock the editor even after the editor was unblocked? Has the community forgotten the doctrine of good faith or is it trying to signal that he was trying to hurt the project? He had every opportunity to wheel war so that he could become unblocked too; he did not take this bait that was dangled in front of him. Instead, he expected the community to respond to his unblock request by unblocking him, given that Malleus was also unblocked (for that matter, without any on-wiki unblock request or assurance of any sort); the administrators involved failed to meet this expectation. I cannot in good conscience ignore these facts. The serious issues in judgement should have been addressed through normal methods; not childish insult trades and childish block/unblock wars. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Bait that was dangled in front of him"? That's completely ridiculous, and insulting. It does, however, save me some time, as I no longer see any value in discussing this with you. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- The point that is being missed in all of this is that the method by which we decide whether administrators should be desysopped or not, based on their tool-use, is well-established - those methods have never included blocking. As for incivility, editors and admins are on equal playing ground...which still leaves the question unanswered - why is one editor being unblocked without any requests while the admin is being still blocked despite making a request earlier? Because "he started it"? Or has he shown a tendency to reblock the editor even after the editor was unblocked? Has the community forgotten the doctrine of good faith or is it trying to signal that he was trying to hurt the project? He had every opportunity to wheel war so that he could become unblocked too; he did not take this bait that was dangled in front of him. Instead, he expected the community to respond to his unblock request by unblocking him, given that Malleus was also unblocked (for that matter, without any on-wiki unblock request or assurance of any sort); the administrators involved failed to meet this expectation. I cannot in good conscience ignore these facts. The serious issues in judgement should have been addressed through normal methods; not childish insult trades and childish block/unblock wars. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Let's see: Admin compares editor to dogshit on editor's own talk page. Editor responds, effectively saying "no, you're dogshit." Admin blocks editor for "personal attack" (comparing him to dogshit). Admin retires in a huff when blocked for his ridiculous behavior. Seems like it was handled fine by all concerned except the admin.Bali ultimate (talk) 09:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's unhelpful to overlook the fact that behavior on all sides was ridiculous - responding to incivility with incivility is utterly stupid and childish, regardless of which space it is on-wiki or regardless of excuses like "he started it". Admin Flo blocked admin Rod for personal attacks (which might have been fine), in which case no unblock was warranted by Moni3 or Courcelle. Had Flo not blocked, an unblock would have taken place (which would have been fine) and it is very unlikely that a contributor would have been lost today. Flo has also given every indication that he blocked for tool misuse if the civility block didn't stick - admins should not block other admins on grounds of tool misuse (unless it is an emergency, like account compromised, vandalism, etc). If anything, this seems to have been handled poorly by all concerned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- No. It's unhelpful to defend this garbage. If you come to my talk page and call me a dogshit, I'll give you an earful. I'm a big boy, so presumably is malleus. But if you're one of those admin assholes who come to a user's talk page to throw invective, receive invective in turn and then block the peon because, well, you're big and powerful and the non-admin is just dog shit, that's a big problem far, far beyond the incivility crap the game players are constantly going on about. It's a fundamental failing of the way this place is run that this stuff happens all the time. The good news here was the rod-whatever was dumb enough to do the blocking himself. Usually the offended admin rounds up an uninvolved pal by email or in some chatroom so plausible deniability is preserved (so sorry to have to block you. But you used naughty words, and i just was happening by and was left little choice but to stop the disruption you instigated on your own talk page.)Bali ultimate (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's unhelpful to overlook the fact that behavior on all sides was ridiculous - responding to incivility with incivility is utterly stupid and childish, regardless of which space it is on-wiki or regardless of excuses like "he started it". Admin Flo blocked admin Rod for personal attacks (which might have been fine), in which case no unblock was warranted by Moni3 or Courcelle. Had Flo not blocked, an unblock would have taken place (which would have been fine) and it is very unlikely that a contributor would have been lost today. Flo has also given every indication that he blocked for tool misuse if the civility block didn't stick - admins should not block other admins on grounds of tool misuse (unless it is an emergency, like account compromised, vandalism, etc). If anything, this seems to have been handled poorly by all concerned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly he's not ready to do so at the moment; I suspect he will quickly regret declaring himself "retired" and apologise profusely, promise not to do it again, etc. In which case fine, give Rod a second chance if he promises not to abuse the tools again. If he sticks to his "retirement", then good luck to him; we certainly don't need admins who abuse their tools to fight with other editors and then throw a strop about it when blocked for blatant misuse of the admin tools he promised to use responsibly. I would say give him a few days to cool off and acknowledge his own fault; if he doesn't, perhaps admin recall will be necessary. Just my opinion. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 14:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hardly see how he is going to accept anything when he's declared that he has retired, presumably as a result of this block (or its handling). Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Endorse While I personally never had a problem with Rod and always thought him to be a good admin, I have to agree with Friday that in this case Rod simply made a mistake. Not only because of the personal attacks but also because he used his tools in a situation he was involved in. I do think though that Malleus should not have been unblocked, since in this case both sides were equally responsible for what happened. It's sad to see that Rod used this situation to announce his retirement though - he should accept that he was baited by Malleus and overreacted, misusing the tools in the process. We all make mistakes after all - how we handle them and the consequences is the important part. Regards SoWhy 09:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good block, Floquenbeam.'* Rod "advised" MF (he says), and MF didn't do as he was told, so Rod decided that was "disruption". What does "disruption" mean today? Lèse majesté ? Let me quote WP:BLOCK's list of what the actual blockable disruptions are: [11]. Did Malleus do any of that lot? Nope. "Disagreeing with our betters" isn't in there, that I can see. I quote some more from the same source: "Blocking is a serious matter. The community expects that blocks will be made with good reasons only, based upon reviewable evidence and reasonable judgment " Did Rod do that? Nope again. I'm not much of a blocker, but Rod's block of Malleus was so horribly bad, and misused admin tools so flagrantly, that I think he should stay blocked his full time, and we should ignore his flouncing-off "retired" template. A small case of burnout, perhaps. We've all been there there, and when we are, the community should be protected from our bad actions. Bishonen | talk 10:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC).
- Good block, blocking someone you're in an argument with for personal attacks no worse than the ones you've made yourself is very, very silly behaviour. Technically, I think both of them warranted a block given the bilateral nature of the argument - but unambiguously it should not have been Rod that did the blocking of Malleus. ~ mazca talk 11:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough block. But I hope Rod comes back to edit again when the block expires. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Endorse block and concur that admins should be held to the same standards as any other editors and that it is inappropriate to use admin tools against someone you're arguing with: I think that's what WP:INVOLVED is there to avoid; and I think it could have justified at least an RCF/U, had Rod not retired. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 13:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good block. I think he should be desysoped for his outrageous behavior. "blocking an Admin is a serious step to take, and should not be done unilaterally", give me a break. Sole Soul (talk) 14:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Flo: your version of events seems to have left out who made the first personal attack, which appears to be Malleus when he called Rod an idiot. The many people who watch Malleus' talk page, which includes many admins as well as notable editors highly active in the FA process, chose to ignore the attack and instead let it fester and grow. Indeed, to some extent they have joined in by being jocular about what occurred. These jokers include Moni3, who lifted the block on Malleus. The FA cabal is fun and productive, but it needs to be on its guard against its all too frequent slips into the unfunny and unproductive. DrKiernan (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- A quick look at my contributions should dispel any notion that I'm part of an FA cabal, Dr. K. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like the right decision was made here. Both sides went over the line from what I can see. Doc Quintana (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, this sucked.
- Flo, in response to the particular question you posed, I believe that the situation reached the point where an urgent intervention was justified and arguably necessary. Within our existing policy and precedent this was fine.
- Taking a step back - We have a longstanding history of having admins and longtime editors who reach the point that they're angered by something and escalate themselves into blowing up and leaving. We've had ongoing discussions about this, usually after someone good that we all knew flames out and disappears. I think that everyone acknowledges that figuring out a way to "talk people down off the ledge" would be far preferable to the blowups and departures which have charcterized so many experienced participants departures so far. With an experienced editor who's just being rude to people this is hard enough (and we don't really have any policy, precedent, or established responders who know how to do this reliably). With an admin who's used the admin bit inappropriately it gets much harder to deal with, as the amount of damage done is more severe.
- I am going to point this thread out to Marc Riddell and a few others. Anyone else who has ideas about the meta-problem here is welcome to chime in.
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Same shit, different day. As usual, the dysfunctional issue here is all the anonymous admins who were nowhere to be seen before this became the usual episode of Wiki Free Speech Groundhog Day, sponsored by Acme Tin Foil Hat Company. All you admins endorsing this block need to go and look and Rod's contribs, and split between yourselves the million and one BLPs Rod seemed to patrol all day every day ceaselessly. I certainly don't want any more crap like Fiddling Changes foisted on the pedia simply because Wikipedia doesn't have enough admins on the job because they can get wound up by the usual suspects so easily. So Malleus got wrongly blocked after yet again trolling the fuck out of a venue he had less than nothing new to contribute to with his Adminz R Evil crap, what's fucking new for fuck's sake? Sort your lives out all of you, or Moni3 is going to be the only actual admin left, to do all your actual proper work for you. And you all know how over-worked she is already, having to intervene on Malleus' behalf all the time. MickMacNee (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hate to step in on the Malleus lovefest, but he did call another user an "idiot", which in my book violates WP:NPA. I Don't know why he was unblocked... Oh, yeah, long-time users can get away with saying virtually anything they want to an admin. Ridiculous double-standard. –Joshua Scott 20:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- What about an unblock review for Moni3's unblock of Malleus? It seems to me that of the three administrative actions (Rodhullandemu's block of Malleus, Floquenbeam's block of Rodhullandemu, Moni3's unblock of Malleus), the unblock of Malleus was the most egregious one. Floquenbeam stated that the block of Rodhullandemu was for incivility and personal attacks. Rodhullandemu is still blocked. Malleus' incivility and personal attacks in this case were very blatant and he was the first one to call Rodhullandemu an idiot. Malleus did not request an unblock and did not make any promises to respect WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL in the future. Yet he was unblocked by Moni3 with the brilliant summary "Oh for Pete's sake". Now Moni3 offers the following amazing explanation for his unblock: "Does Malleus then have the right to be more abusive or ...gosh, I have no idea... something, because he's written over 20 FAs??" Did I miss something or did we at some point adopt a policy that Malleus is exempt from WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA?? Moni3 did a similar thing back on March 7, 2010, lifting a block as "ineffective" where malleus was blocked for personal attacks against User:Chillum, which lead directly to Chillum leaving the project for good. It seems to me that if someone deserves to be desysopped here or at least forbidden to ever unblock Malleus if someone blocks him again, it is Moni3, who apparently is determined to protect Mallleus, no matter the circumstances. Nsk92 (talk) 21:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some feedback on the block. Good block
- Some feedback on my opinion in the extreme inappropriateness of the use of admin tools against someone you're arguing with, on their own talk page, right after you call them dogshit. Definitely agree.
- Some feedback on whether this misuse of the tools is worth an RFC/U or recall attempt. Only if it continues. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment . Rod shouldn't have blocked Malleus (obviously); Flo shouldn't have blocked Rod, and Moni3 shouldn't have unblocked Malleus given that Rod was blocked. Either the both of them stayed blocked or neither. The actual correct thing to have done would have just been to unblock Malleus, told both Rod and Malleus to grow up, and then ask the community if there was a case for an RFCU based on Rod's incorrect use of admin tools. There is a very dubious sense of double standards here; a neutral observer might think that Malleus "gets away with" his incivility because of his (outstanding) article work - so then why doesn't Rod? If you're blocking for NPA (which should've been the only reason to - we don't block for crap decisions on tool use) you treat both parties in the same way. Black Kite (t) (c) 21:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I read it as Rod was blocked for blocking an opponent in a dispute. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- With all due etc, you can't have read very hard. I can't see any ambiguity in the wording that "Personal attacks and harassment" was the block reason. – iridescent 22:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- True, I didn't read the log and relied on the post of 03:20, 11 July 2010. "grossly inappropriate use of admin tools" is what I read as what was really meant. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not a valid block reason; never has been, and never will be, since it's an unnecessary powder keg for fuelling factionalism and divisiveness. Other remedies, such as Talk page negotiation, and WP:RFC exist for that very purpose. Our Founding Fathers may not have anticipated where we may end up, but they at least set up some basic principles, one of which is that Administrators should be free from fear in applying non-negotiable policies. Rodhullandemu 02:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- What isn't a valid block reason? Reading the specific thread you're responding to, it's one of three things.
- 'blocking an opponent in a dispute'
- 'Personal attacks and harassment'
- 'grossly inappropriate use of admin tools'
- All three seem to be valid reasons to block. What invalid reason were you blocked for? --Onorem♠Dil 03:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't get me wrong. I still think that Malleus needs to be specifically pointed out for some reason as exempt in WP:CIVIL, but that doesn't change your response. --Onorem♠Dil 03:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- What isn't a valid block reason? Reading the specific thread you're responding to, it's one of three things.
- I agree with Black Kite's comment. Obviously, blocking someone you're arguing with is completely unacceptable and Malleus should have been unblocked. But I don't think Rodhullandemu should have been blocked and instead a discussion started regarding his actions. Sarah 03:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Alarming. The retirement is apparently over (see also Rod's talkpage), and ArbCom has, reasonably, rejected the request for arbitration as insufficiently prepared. I suggest an RFC/U is the appropriate next step. That is, if more users than me are disappointed to see Rod return to the fold with the exact same rigid attitude about the "non-negotiable policy" which "obliged" him to block Malleus? The plentiful good advice and resounding consensus against his block have not affected his defensiveness at all, it seems. That is sort of alarming, because of both his wildly unhealthy Wiki work schedule and his overly majestic attitude towards editors—signs of burnout, both. Unless Rod freely takes a break of a self-selected (but reasonable!) length, it's surely dispute resolution time: WP:RFC/U, then WP:RFAR. This affair should not be let slide and remain only as a living monument to Malleus' conviction that adminship is synonymous with abuse. Bishonen | talk 03:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC).
- Feh. I don't like his attitude much either, but a lot of people don't like my attitude, for instance. What matters is behavior. If he does it again, desysop him. For now, if he wants to rant about how he was right but doesn't take the same actions again, let him.Bali ultimate (talk) 03:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- It happens, I am a believer in if the block is over then you can be proud of the results or the method you got there anyways. The sockpuppet actually was rather conscise about this. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Leave him be. I think he'll figure it out. No need to take drastic measures over a single series of mistakes made in anger. Let him recover for a few days and think about it. Technically, he's right about WP:NPA being a blockable offense, but he may have neglected WP:INVOLVED in the process. Let him figure it out and we'll go from there. A desysopping would be punitive at this point, not preventative. N419BH 04:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I have no doubt hes "found Jesus" in his short wiki-incarceration. Hopefully it sticks. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Leave him be. I think he'll figure it out. No need to take drastic measures over a single series of mistakes made in anger. Let him recover for a few days and think about it. Technically, he's right about WP:NPA being a blockable offense, but he may have neglected WP:INVOLVED in the process. Let him figure it out and we'll go from there. A desysopping would be punitive at this point, not preventative. N419BH 04:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- It happens, I am a believer in if the block is over then you can be proud of the results or the method you got there anyways. The sockpuppet actually was rather conscise about this. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I also agree with Black Kite and Sarah. I'm particularly concerned that we have an Administrator twice unblocking Malleus, I would strongly suggest that he does not do this again. Why Malleus avoids blocks or gets unblocked for comments others are blocked for eludes me. Dougweller (talk) 05:31, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unblocked in 12 minutes or less, both times. That could be seen by some as odd in itself. Just saying... Doc9871 (talk) 05:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Would you be equally concerned if an administrator had twice blocked me? No, I didn't think so. Malleus Fatuorum 17:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- You answered your own question incorrectly, Malleus. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Bad all round No one comes out of this looking very good. Rod's block seems like an open-and-shut case of a bad block by an involved editor. But what does WP:UNINVOLVED say on the subject? In cases which are straightforward, (e.g. blatant vandalism), the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion. Of course Rod is going to be the least objective judge of how severe those attacks were, but unfortunately, WP:WHEEL makes it rather difficult for another admin to endorse a block after the fact - and impossible, if a different admin unblocks. Speaking of which, I think that Moni3's unblock was worse than Rod's block, both in terms of involvement (as pointed out above, this isn't the first rapid unblock of Malleus by Moni3) and in comparison to policy (there was no unblock request and no indication that the disruption wouldn't continue). So if you folks with the pitchforks and torches could just move along over there... SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 16:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- What "disruption" is this you're talking about? I didn't see any disruption, and I certainly didn't see anyone blocked for disruption. Malleus Fatuorum 17:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Personal attacks disrupt the collaborative editing environment that we expect here. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- What "disruption" is this you're talking about? I didn't see any disruption, and I certainly didn't see anyone blocked for disruption. Malleus Fatuorum 17:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, (because I happened to have met Rod in the past at the Prisoner article talkpage and I really liked his attitude), Good block because of the undeniable fact that Rod in his utterings and overall behaviour shows sure signs of burnout. That would, in itself, not matter at all. But acting up as an admin and using the powerful admin tools while burned out, is a recipe for tragedy and disaster, not to mention massive disruption. Let him cool off and regain his composure and for sure, no more 12 hour stints at Wikipedia during the recovery process please. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 18:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think Bali ultimate gets it exactly right above. If there was "baiting" it was by Rod - come on, it was entirely predictable how Malleus would respond and it looks to me like Rod was fishing for a reason to block him and cause all this drama.radek (talk) 18:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Stats are down?
See [13] for an example. We seem to be missing a lot of data from the last few days ([14]). Does anyone know what's happening? -- ChrisO (talk) 15:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Seems to be a recurring issue with stats.grok.se - there were several threads last month about this on WP:VPT. —DoRD (talk) 15:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's not stats.grok.se that's down - it gets its source data from http://dammit.lt/wikistats/ . If you look at that URL you'll see that the logs for the last few days are all broken. I'm guessing it's a server-side problem. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- OMFG! the stats are down, quick someone give the nerds a tranqulizer before they go into traumatic shock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.101.182 (talk) 20:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Haha, someone signed out just to post that. --mboverload@ 21:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Which is sad, because there's plenty of people who I would expect that kind of comment from. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Haha, someone signed out just to post that. --mboverload@ 21:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- OMFG! the stats are down, quick someone give the nerds a tranqulizer before they go into traumatic shock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.101.182 (talk) 20:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's not stats.grok.se that's down - it gets its source data from http://dammit.lt/wikistats/ . If you look at that URL you'll see that the logs for the last few days are all broken. I'm guessing it's a server-side problem. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Backlog
At Category:Non-free Wikipedia file size reduction request, which I have recently been dealing with. Needn't be an admin, but it has grown and WP:NFCC is not really negotiable. Due diligence, you know. Rodhullandemu 23:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Blocking policy
I am a user from fa.wikipedia. In our project there are always disagreements on interpretation of en:Wikipedia:Blocking policy. It is said that "Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute". Please advise us on the following cases:
Case 1: Suppose that admin blocks a user for reasons such as sockpuppetry, vandalism, edit warring, ... . After the end of the blocking period, the blocked user starts vilifying or attacking the blocking admin. Is the blocking admin considered as involved admin. Is there any restriction for this admin to block the user again?
Case 2:
Suppose that admin warns a user for vandalism or incivility or .... The warned user starts arguing with admin instead of accepting to change his/her behavior. Is this admin considered as involved admin now. Is there any restriction for this admin to block the user?
--Wayiran (talk) 15:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Keeping in mind that
our policies do not extend toEnglish Wikipedia administration is separate from fa.wiki, we have the express stipulation at WP:INVOLVED that "...an administrator who has interacted with an editor or article purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvement are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting on the article, editor, or dispute either in an administrative role or in an editorial role. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about communal norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches, do not make an administrator 'involved'." –xenotalk 15:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)- Without more information about the exact circumstances surrounding the case, it's difficult to advise Wayiron how case 2 would be resolved on en-wiki in accordance with en-wiki policy. More information is needed about what it is the warned user is arguing about (and how the warned user is arguing about it). In case 1, the admin would generally not be permitted to use their tools - only one of the admin's peers may block for the perceived incivility/harassment. Although en-wiki's methods of resolving these issues may guide other projects (such as fa-wiki), it is in no way binding on those other projects as xeno has correctly noted. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Just a note that its usual for fa wiki users to seek clarification here because they adopt our policies locally. That means when they are not sure how to interpret a rule they usually ask us for help. Where we do need to be careful is to be seen to be taking sides in an external dispute. Spartaz Humbug! 18:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
E. Normus Johnson history restore
Can an admin please restore the history for E. Normus Johnson.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Done. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- How long will the history remain available?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Responded on your talk page. I'll willing to userify it so you can work on it. Otherwise, I was going to ask you about it anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have a couple sources that will enable it to stand as an article now, but i might not get around to it for a month or so. If you just leave the history up for about 2 months I will create a page.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:55, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I am just reading my talk now. Userfying is O.K. too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Responded on your talk page. I'll willing to userify it so you can work on it. Otherwise, I was going to ask you about it anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
User Name
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Are user names displaying email addresses allowed? Polymathsj (Talk) 23:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- New ones aren't possible to create (accounts can't have the "@" symbol in them), although there are usernames from before the restriction existed that do contain an email address. Regardless of whether or not they're allowed, they are a terrible idea. — Gavia immer (talk) 23:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Take a look
Please take a look at this. Polymathsj Talk 23:49, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- He's obviously exempt. You can't create a new one now, but he's been here since 2005. Did you see the big warning template when you created this new section? "If your post is about a specific problem you have (a dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead. Thank you." Wrong venue, I'm afraid... Doc9871 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Afd needing closure
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Time for Annihilation has been open for nearly two months, in which time the article has been much improved. However, there is a current apparent consensus for deletion, largely due to interested editors not going to the Afd and defending it. I commented myself, so I can't close it, but it needs outside eyes to take a realistic point of view and do the right thing. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 00:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I noticed that this AFD was never transcluded onto the log for May 20th. I did so and relisted it with a note pointing to this thread. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Ron. Probably explains the lack of comments from editors, but nevertheless, the AfD notice has been repeatedly removed by an editor whom I blocked earlier. That doesn't excuse those actions, of course, since the AFD was valid, but I think another 7 days is probably the correct thing to do. Rodhullandemu 01:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I wonder if the AFD tag not being on the article at the moment when "interested editors" saw it might have hurt its chances. Those who remove AFD tags don't realize that by doing so they're keeping the "keep" !voters away as well. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Ron. Probably explains the lack of comments from editors, but nevertheless, the AfD notice has been repeatedly removed by an editor whom I blocked earlier. That doesn't excuse those actions, of course, since the AFD was valid, but I think another 7 days is probably the correct thing to do. Rodhullandemu 01:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Unprotected image on the Main Page Part VII
Whacking with a wet trout or trouting is a common practice on Wikipedia when experienced editors slip up and make a silly mistake. It, along with sentencing to the village stocks, is used to resolve one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior amongst normally constructive community members, as opposed to long term patterns of disruptive edits, which earn warnings and blocks.
Example
- for letting File:Ray Charles (cropped).jpg reach the main page unprotected. ΔT The only constant 01:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, it was for less than 1 minute. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- thats because I have an IRC bot that started screaming bloody murder and I was quickly able to find J Milburn and get it protected. Had I not taken action it could have been there for a lot longer. ΔT The only constant 01:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, I mean MPUploadbot uploaded it locally and protected it less than a minute after it was added. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've protected main page images after being alerted by Beta's bot a Hell of a lot of times- plenty of times when Beta hasn't been here to trout about it. Just look at that log, then tell me there isn't a problem. J Milburn (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not saying there isn't an occasional problem that needs fixing; I'm saying that there wasn't one this particular time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that unprotected Main Page images=bad, but trouting AN every time is perhaps not the best way of fixing it. Maybe we should cascade protect the TFA templates, that would solve most of the problems. ITN is cascade protected, DYK images are protected by cascade protection while they're in the queue and on Main Page/Tomorrow, TFP and OTD should be protected via /Tommorow, so that jsut leaves TFA images added after midnight UTC as far as I know. Cascade protecting the TFA blurbs for their stay on the MP would solve that problem. Whisky drinker | HJ's sock 01:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...Unless I've missed something, cascade protection does not work cross-project. You'll note the protections log I linked was my Commons protection log. J Milburn (talk) 01:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- This has been a problem in the past, but MPUploadbot seems to have really improved lately; are there recent problems (say, in the last 1-2 weeks) that it didn't take care of? --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...Unless I've missed something, cascade protection does not work cross-project. You'll note the protections log I linked was my Commons protection log. J Milburn (talk) 01:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- thats because I have an IRC bot that started screaming bloody murder and I was quickly able to find J Milburn and get it protected. Had I not taken action it could have been there for a lot longer. ΔT The only constant 01:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, it was for less than 1 minute. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I added the image after a protected edit request, and it was protected on Commons by J Milburn right away. I only did it because I knew I had a Commons admin, J Milburn, accessible on IRC and he actually got it done right as I was asking (so no, it wouldn't have been up longer than another 2 seconds, Δ). Although it might not seem like it always, I generally know what I'm doing, and I didn't see much bother in reuploading locally if both the local and Commons pages were protected right away. In any case, I didn't even realize that MPUploadBot would automatically upload a local copy each time. —fetch·comms 01:56, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have nothing wrong with what your doing, except before adding it to the main page make sure the image is protected. ΔT The only constant 02:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Would X! consider expanding the purview of MPUploadBot to locally uploading and protecting the Commons images on tomorrow's main page instead of today's (subject of course to BAG approval), thereby preventing the current race condition? — Jeff G. ツ 02:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I thought it already did? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- This image was added by a protected edit request, so the bot didn't know. I think it already does, as HJ said. —fetch·comms 02:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- OIC, never mind then. How about encouraging dual admins (here and Commons) to handle image-related protected edit requests for the Main Page? — Jeff G. ツ 02:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It does. Of course, due to the multiple API calls and lag, server load, etc, it can take up to a minute for the images to be uploaded. The bigger issue at hand here is that people put images on the main page without protecting them. I also agree with HJ that trouts are not the best way to fix this, because by trouting every single one of the 1500 admins for the actions of one, you're just irritating the others every time you do this. (X! · talk) · @143 · 02:25, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree on the bigger issue and the trout. I work extensively ITN and frequently add images to the Main Page as part of that, but it doesn't take more than a few minutes to copy the Commons image and upload it locally. I don't mean this to seem personally directed, but I can't understand why people are still adding Commons images. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- This image was added by a protected edit request, so the bot didn't know. I think it already does, as HJ said. —fetch·comms 02:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I just want to clarify that I do not think anyone updating the main page is doing a bad job. Hope no one took it that way. J Milburn (talk) 02:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Revdel - review requested
Per a request on my talkpage I've WP:REVDELed four edit summaries, and would like my actions reviewed (Did I go too far? Not far enough?)
Background: Time_served (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), blocked by Elockid for being an obvious sock. The sock's usual target asked me to look at a number of their edits, which I did, and I chose to undo them. Revert me at your leisure, that's not what I'm seeking review for!
I also decided to RD2 four of their edit summaries, as I considered them to be purely disruptive. I'd appreciate review of these RD2s. Am I being too trigger-happy with rev-del?
TFOWR 10:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- These summaries fall under RD2 or RD3; you did the right thing. Nyttend (talk) 15:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Lightbot is being considered for re-approval
ArbCom is considering lifting the restriction imposed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Lightmouse automation, subject to BAG approval of Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Lightbot 4. As part of BAG's mandate is to gauge community consensus for proposed bot tasks and Lightbot's former activities were highly controversial, I invite all interested editors to join that discussion to ensure that community consensus is in fact in favor of this task. Thanks. Anomie⚔ 17:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Strange article renaming
A while ago I started Guntram the Rich, but suddenly, the article name changed to Guntram, Count of Habsburg, and the old article doesn't exist anymore. The logs however contain nothing, and I can find no explanation for this event. The new name is completely wrong, and it should be moved back. I don't understand at all. Tropical wind (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Are you sure? There is no entry in the move log, indeed no entries in the log at all for Guntram the Rich, nor do you have any deleted edits. If you want to move it to that name, use the move button. –xenotalk 18:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm 100% sure I started Guntram the Rich (by clicking the red link at House of Habsburg), I edited it for a while under this name, but it suddenly got renamed. This is very strange and a bit scary too. Tropical wind (talk) 18:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- You'll note that redlink was piped to Guntram, Count of Habsburg, which is why it is no longer red even though Guntram the Rich was not created. –xenotalk 18:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, ok. Perhaps I just got it wrong. Tropical wind (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...In Wikipedia, pipe tricks you! –xenotalk 18:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Facepalm Directed at Xeno's terrible joke, in case there's any confusion. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 19:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...In Wikipedia, pipe tricks you! –xenotalk 18:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, ok. Perhaps I just got it wrong. Tropical wind (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- You'll note that redlink was piped to Guntram, Count of Habsburg, which is why it is no longer red even though Guntram the Rich was not created. –xenotalk 18:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm 100% sure I started Guntram the Rich (by clicking the red link at House of Habsburg), I edited it for a while under this name, but it suddenly got renamed. This is very strange and a bit scary too. Tropical wind (talk) 18:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
AWB requests
Could someone please check the requests here: Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage? I know it hasn't been 48 hours but my name is on the list and I lose access for the rest of the week to a Windows machine (which AWB works on) in just a few hours. I'm anxious to get started using it. Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 23:56, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Semi-done Approved you so you can get rolling; there's someone from fr.wiki with 17 edits that I don't know how to handle, so I'm going to punt if someone more familiar wants to take a look. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Cruft cleanup request
I'm too busy to deal with this myself, assuming that it in fact requires debate, but I was looking through my past edits and by chance viewed this AfD and then viewed the edits of Thaliafan to find that he has created a mass of articles related to what appears to be his own incredibly non-noteworthy (and virtually non-existent) musical creations, which have lasted well over a year. Could someone deal with this garbage? Lexicon (talk) 06:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
OKC Thunder Article.
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
I changed a part of an article and was warned it was "Vandalism" it was reverted and I asked for a reason.
Then was warned again that it was "vandalism" even though the edit in question is factual. Afterwards I asked the person reporting it why it was reverted and was warned of a ban for "attacking him". This person is supposed to be an admin, if this is how admins act (basically trying to ban people for no reason) I'm curious about the qualifications of becoming an admin and the lack of even giving an answer of what the vandalism was in the first place. If asking a question or stating a point is "attacking" then this whole thing is just wrong. Some people have no right to such power if they don't know how to wield it or just use it to push their point of view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:67.160.51.149
I'd like an answer as to why a fact is vandalism, why asking for an answer is "an attack", and how can someone can threaten a ban for basically no reason whatsoever.
Thanks67.160.51.149 (talk) 07:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment - A) This is clearly not a good revert of "vandalism", and Rollback should never be used to revert edits like these. 2) "Lame-duck" needs a reference to be included there: one editor's (or many, for that matter) opinion does not make it necessarily fit for inclusion. And, Z) Wrong venue. This should be filed at WP:AN/I instead of here. Chuckles... Doc9871 (talk) 07:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, don't know all the rules of where things go. What about the "personal attack" and the ban threats? Didn't attack anyone, asked a question of why it was reverted and was threatened with a ban.67.160.51.149 (talk) 07:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- From what I'm seeing (please, admins, correct me if I'm wrong), Dcheagle used Rollback to revert a non-vandalistic query from 67.160.51.149 here, then issued a warning on the IP's talk page 1 minute later here. Despite repeated queries from the IP, the warning was neither explained nor acknowledged. This use of Rollback (second in this case) is against policy, and there seems to have been no attack at all, so no templated warning was warranted. It's in the wrong venue - but it's here already. Eyes? Doc9871 (talk) 08:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Looks like bad communication on both sides.
67.etc., edits that can be construed as negative towards the article subject, and particularly those that are added by IPs, are generally reverted if they lack direct references. Please read the verifiability policy, and consider creating an account. Also, your comment to Dcheagle here was uncivil, we expect people to treat others respectfully here even if the other guy isn't doing the same to you or he just screwed something up.
Dcheagle, please do not use inaccurate automated edit summaries, please do not use your rollback tool for stuff that isn't simple vandalism, please assume good faith of the IPs, and please do not blank comments from your talk page without addressing them. --erachima talk 08:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for addressing this! Reverted and used references (the owners own comment about "another lame duck season").67.160.51.149 (talk) 08:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment:I would like to say sorry to the IP who has made these edits I admit I was wrong, its been a hard week with a death in my family and it seems I have let my emotion get the better of me and its effected my behavior as such I will be taking a three day wiki break and will return after that to hopeful contribute once more. One last thing before I go if any admin sees fit to block me or remove my rollback and reviewer rights I will not contest the block or removal of my user rights. Once again have a nice day.--Steam Iron 08:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- That shouldn't be necessary, just try and learn to do better. --erachima talk 08:52, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- No rights should be removed from Dcheagle in my opinion - he only needs to understand when not to rollback. Rollback should only be used for blatant vandalism (not simple): this was what the very wise admin that granted the tool told me; and now Dcheagle (and erachima - excellent comments, BTW!) know this. 67.160.51.149 referenced the article and is happy; I move this be marked and closed as resolved on this board forthwith. Everybody's happy! Yay! :> Doc9871 (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Minor edits preference
The "mark all edits as minor by default" preference is to be removed. Once this is implemented, is there any reason that editors blocked over this issue cannot be unblocked? Mjroots (talk) 09:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say that depends on the circumstances: there has always been a way of deactivating it in preferences, and those who were blocked for marking all edits as minor chose to do so after numerous warnings. If they can show that they now understand why they were blocked and that only "minor" edits should be marked as such, then I'd say unblock. But removing the ability to automatically mark all edits as minor isn't going to change the fact that some editors have ignored warnings to turn the setting off or manually unmark it from non-minor edits, and may continue to mark edits as minor inappropriately with or without the automatic feature. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 09:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't see why they should be unblocked. They weren't blocked for the minor-edits issue per se – they were blocked for being intentionally disruptive and refusing to stop after multiple requests. And they're still the same people. ╟─TreasuryTag►inspectorate─╢ 09:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- TreasuryTag has this one right. An editor who is so belligerent that they would rather be blocked than uncheck a box has no future here. --erachima talk 09:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Basically, removing the autominor feature is irrelevant; if they would have been unblocked anyway (if they demonstrated they would abide by policy and stop marking edits as minor) they unblock them; otherwise don't. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 09:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Community ban discussion: User:Orsahnses?
As the list of socks grows, and considering that this has been occurring now for over a year, is it now time to discuss a community ban of the user? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- What's there to discuss. He's been blocked indefinitely for a full year, and has no chance of coming back given his continuing behaviour. Looks banned to me. --erachima talk 12:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Blocked indefinitely for a full year? It's an oxymoron - no offense... ;> Doc9871 (talk) 12:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're misunderstanding the term indefinitely, Doc. Indefinitely doesn't mean permanently, it means "without a foreseeable end". The implication, I believe, was that he was blocked indefinitely a year ago and has remained blocked since then. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 16:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm thinking he understood, but he wanted to point out the oxymoron (indefinitely definite)...not going to speculate on why though. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're misunderstanding the term indefinitely, Doc. Indefinitely doesn't mean permanently, it means "without a foreseeable end". The implication, I believe, was that he was blocked indefinitely a year ago and has remained blocked since then. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 16:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd tend to agree, but a community ban gives editors confidence to revert. WP:3RR doesn't apply when reverting banned users, but does when reverting indef blocked users. Arguably, an indef'd user with no admin willing to unblock is de facto banned... but I wouldn't want to revert repeatedly and risk myself getting blocked. TFOWR 16:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Blocked indefinitely for a full year? It's an oxymoron - no offense... ;> Doc9871 (talk) 12:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support: on top of sockpuppetry, even after a year, he has not learn to be civil. This personal attack recently, and an attack from last year. Elockid (Talk) 12:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support: per what TFOWR said; I used to just say editors need this protection, but if no progress is made on a recent (but separate) matter, I may have to revise this opinion to mean "both admins and editors need to be protected". Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Technical problem with sections in new format
This is probably not the right place to report this, but I could not find another. (Where should technical issues be reported?)
The issue is with the placement of the [edit] link in sections.
In the new format (dunno if it also exists in the old), the article Vermont Republic has several sections (History, Founding, Constitution and frame of government) that have images to their right. When the browser (tried FF 3.6.6 and IE 8.0.6001) is relatively narrow, everything looks fine, but if the user widens the window, the [edit] tag moves down (relative to the section's text). It looks as though these tags might be staying in place relative to the images, while the text is reformatted to fill the browser window.
Bloody Viking (talk) 14:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- WP:Village pump (technical), for future reference... –xenotalk 14:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is not related to the new format, it's the old "bunching" problem, fixed by using {{FixBunching}} template. – ukexpat (talk) 14:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
NAC closure of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dr. Kenneth K. Kim
I feel that the NAC closure of this AfD as "nomination withdrawn" was inappropriate and in violation of WP:NACD which clearly states that non-admin closures are reserved for clearly non-controversial situations. This AfD was anything but. Although the nominator has changed his mind regarding deletion, at the time of the closure there were a substantial number of non-retracted "delete" !votes. The AfD had another day to run at the time it was closed. While I am not sure if relisting or reopening it for a day will do much good, I request that the closure be reviewed by an admin and be changed from a procedural close to a substantive one (keep/no consensus/delete). Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, but you're quite right; controversial AfD discussions are not suitable for non-admin closure. I'm reverted the close and will explain why on the user's talk page. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 17:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)