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::::*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wang_Wenyi&diff=prev&oldid=54874067 you used CCP's cult label to attack and praised CCP's brutal crackdown]. CCP's brutal human rights abuse was well documented. Please check a recent media report: [http://www.foxla.com/news/national-news/undercover-video-reveals-brutal-treatment-of-falun-gong-prisoners-inside-chinese-labor-camps Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps] Your views and behavior on Wikipedia are against the freedom of belief and the freedom of expression, those pillars of modern civilization. |
::::*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wang_Wenyi&diff=prev&oldid=54874067 you used CCP's cult label to attack and praised CCP's brutal crackdown]. CCP's brutal human rights abuse was well documented. Please check a recent media report: [http://www.foxla.com/news/national-news/undercover-video-reveals-brutal-treatment-of-falun-gong-prisoners-inside-chinese-labor-camps Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps] Your views and behavior on Wikipedia are against the freedom of belief and the freedom of expression, those pillars of modern civilization. |
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:::okay, yes, [[refrigeration]] is at the bottom of my top edited page list. As i said i cared about human rights, you can see the page 2008 Sichuan Earthquake and the page Zhang Jianghong are at No. 4 and No.6 of the list. I am not a FG single purpose user as you claimed. |
:::okay, yes, [[refrigeration]] is at the bottom of my top edited page list. As i said i cared about human rights, you can see the page 2008 Sichuan Earthquake and the page Zhang Jianghong are at No. 4 and No.6 of the list. I am not a FG single purpose user as you claimed. |
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:::I have no ideas on the two IDs you talked about. If you check users contributed to most FG related pages, you can see, over the years, many IDs who edited those pages were blocked. Those IDs showed similar editing pattern as yours: adding CCP propaganda content |
:::I have no ideas on the two IDs you talked about. If you check users contributed to most FG related pages, you can see, over the years, many IDs who edited those pages were blocked. Those IDs showed similar editing pattern as yours: adding CCP propaganda content defying [[WP:OR]] or [[WP:RS]], arguing with users who preferred any reliable sources that did not follow CCP party line. Those pro-CCP users were banned because of disregarding multiple Wikipedia policies. The blocked IDs on [[WP:FLG-A|an arbitration case]] showed the similar editing pattern as I just discussed as well. You asked another user on his talk page for CU of me. Ironically, it seems that you are a user that needs to be CU. In my opinion, Wikipedia welcomes everybody, Pro-CCP user like you, pro-human rights user like me included. But everyone has to follow editing policies. I did feel sometimes my reply on Talk page were a bit long and unnecessary. I will try to improve in this area. BTW [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Epoch_Times&diff=prev&oldid=53805022 you had long/unnessary discussions as well, here is an example]. |
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[[User:Marvin 2009|Marvin 2009]] ([[User talk:Marvin 2009|talk]]) 13:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
[[User:Marvin 2009|Marvin 2009]] ([[User talk:Marvin 2009|talk]]) 13:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 14:35, 16 June 2019
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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Persistent disruptive editing by user SBS3800P
User:SBS3800P has been editing pages without proper citations. I observed on his talk page that other editors have previously tried to engage him about this disruptive and destructive behaviour, but he chose to ignore it.
For example, he made very odd claims about fare rules for a train station on this page without citation. I have since removed the false information he added.
He is recently on an editing spree, again, many without verified citations. He used words including "probably" without solid substantiation, is worrying and will damage the integrity of information posted on Wikipedia. One example is on the page this, he made a claim and used the word probably without citing any sources. Trust me, I have lived in the country for very long and have never heard of this claim before. Another absurd and not cited claim is of a train station with the least amount of climbing and walking. Where does he get these information from!? — Preceding unsigned comment added 17:08, 28 May 2019 by SecretSquirrel78 (talk • contribs)
User:Bring back Daz Sampson: NPA and ASPERSIONS
First some background, Bring back Daz Sampson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) was previously indefinitely blocked in October 2016 by Bbb23 per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sevcohaha. User talk page access (TPA) was also removed by Bbb23 a day after blocking the account per this edit because of "inappropriate use of user talk page while blocked". An attempt made by another administrator Ivanvector here to try and help out at the time apparently was rebuffed per this post. An unblock request for Sevcohaha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), one of the previously blocked sockpuppet accounts, had been declined by here by Vanjagenije earlier in March 2016, partily based upon this post by Bbb23, with TPA access for that account also being revoked shortly thereafter. The Bring back Daz Sampson account was created a few months after that in August 2016, while the Sevocohaha account was still under blocked so techinically that's WP:EVADE. After the accout was blocked, the editor apparently decided to wait out the block per WP:SO and appeal after about six months had passed. An UTRS unblock request was filed and copied and pasted to use talk page here and TPA was restored by Just Chilling in April 2017. In their unblock request, Bring back Daz Sampson admitted to the socking and promised to not repeat the behavior which led to their being indef'd. Positive comments in support were posted by here and here repectively by Ivanvector and JamesBWatson, and the unblock request was accepted by Bbb23 here. All of this seems fine; an editor made some mistakes and was blocked as a resutlt. Some time passed and the editor was unblocked because it was believed they had learned from their mistakes and was committed to moving forward and not repeating them.
One of the socks (Målfarlig!) had been previously blocked by Swarm for edit warring and personal attacks in September 2015. Bring back Daz Sampson admitted to being Målfarlig! in their unblock request, so part of the behavior they were stating they were not going to repeat would also be making personal attacks against others. Recently, however, it appears that they is going back to making unsubtatiated comments about other editors in some talk page discussions and at an AFD. None of these comments appear to have been provoked in anyway; people weren't pinging them or even mentioning them by name let alone posting any negtive comments about them. It would've been entirely possible to participate in these discussion without making any comments about any other editors. Yet for some reason, they felt that these discussions were the right time and place to try and revive old disputes with others. Here are the most recent diffs:
- May 11, 2019, Special:diff/Bring back Daz Sampson/896572069: An attempt to use a discussion at WT:FOOTY about non-free content use to re-hash previous discussions where files were removed by administrators for not complying with WP:NFCCP; the discussion was perfectly civil and there was no reason to make accusations or cast aspersions against other editors. A personal attack against Number 57 was even mixed in under the guise of supporting their position in the discussion. Requests by myself and Number 57 for diffs and a striking of the attack was never responded to and the thread was archived.
- June 2, 2019, Special:diff/Bring back Daz Sampson/899892694: More accusations made in a different FOOTY discussion which seem only intended to try and re-start some long resolved dispute. Perhaps things didn't get resolved in a way that Bring back Daz Simpsom wanted perhaps, but they were resolved none the less. Stating that I exhibit "monomania" is something that was previously done here a little more than three years ago by one of the blocked sock accounts.
- June 2, 2019, Special:diff/Bring back Daz Sampson/899890243: This AfD !vote could've just as easily been made without mentioning any other editors; yet for some reason, this editor felt the need to mention GiantSnowman by name
even though Giant Snowman isn't participating in the AfD at all. It's almost as if this was a pre-emptive personal attack or casting of aspersions in advance just on the off chance that Giant Snowman might eventually show up and !vote.
I don't think there's any doubt that Bring back Daz Sampson makes a lot of positive contributions to articlese about soccer, particularly women's soccer. The problem is not really their ability to do that. The problem has to do with their behavior and their apparent inability to simply stick to commenting on content and avoid commenting on other editors as much as possible. All editors have their bad moments, and probably post things they wouldn't; morevoer, three posts might be only a small sample size when it comes to this type of thing for someone with no history of having problems with others. Even just three posts, however, might be one too many when you're coming back from an indefinite block, and. Moreover, there's no indication there won't be more such posts from here on. FWIW, I'm not looking for a reinstatement of the indefinite block; I'm not even looking for a short-termed block to be issued or even an apology to be made. I do, however, think that a stern final warning is needed that this type of conduct is not going to be tolerated by the community and that this editor is going to be expected to try to figure out a way to honor what they posted in their unblock request and also what they posted here. If this type of behavior continues after this final warning, then the community can decide to block if they want. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:12, 3 June 2019 (UTC);[Note: Post edited by Marchjuly to correct spelling of the word “articles”, to change “short-termed” to “short-term”, and to replace the word “moreover” with “and”. — 20:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)];[Note:Post edited by Marchjuly to strike comment about GiantSnowman not having participated in the Referenced AfD. -- 08:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)]
- Okay, here goes. I'd like to set out some background of my own: This all relates to an ongoing dispute over WP:NFC#UUI#17, a contentious "minimal use" image copyright policy. It's very boring but please bear with me. Marchjuly thinks some national sports team articles cannot contain logos because the teams are "child entities" of the national governing bodies. Even more controversially, he thinks women's sports teams can't have logos because they are "child entities" of the men. It's either a wacky stretch or unilaterally offensive, depending on your perspective. Unfortunately for Marchjuly, WP:NFC#UUI#17 doesn't really support any of this. Manful efforts to gain consensus have proved similarly elusive. So for five years or so he has been taking a piecemeal approach, targeting individual articles - think 'low hanging fruit' like Bhutan or Haiti, for example, rather than England. As WP:FFD gets little traffic and Marchjuly's posts are generally long and impenetrable, this often results in one of the two or three admins active there giving him his desired 'result' from a tiny quorum. Invariably when other editors working on these sports articles realise what he is up to and revert or query the lack of consensus, he demands each individual case go back to the admin and then be subject to the tedious rigmarole of WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Persistently editing against consensus has given Marchjuly something of an adversarial approach. Indeed he is currently engaged in a parallel dispute with Tvx1 over the same issue, where strong accusations of edit warring and inappropriate conduct including WP:POINT are being traded. Undoubtedly Marchjuly has not been above edit warring over this matter in the past. There is also an allegation that Marchjuly is WP:HOUNDING Tvx1. I'll make no comment on the validity of that, except to say that Tvx1's edit history has not yet been subjected to anything like the forensic excavation mine has.
- Anyway, to try and address each point in turn: Among your myriad talents, Marchjuly, brevity is not one of them. Upon sight of your latest imposing WP:WALLOFTEXT I likely thought: "Yea, I'll try and get back to this later". As well as usually being very long, your posts are often quite technical and can appear turbid to the general reader, so I usually have to be in the right frame of mind to try and assail them. This partly explains the delay in my response here too. I don't remember seeing N57's shorter response either as I think the topic went off the front page quite soon afterwards and WT:FOOTY is not on my watchlist. Is questioning someone's feminist credentials really a personal attack? My only previous interactions with N57 relate to them making a totem of WP:FOOTY's in-house notability essay and trying to use it to delete female footballer articles. That's why I found it particularly interesting that N57 described your position on women's teams being "child entities" ridiculous. Of course if I am wrong and N57 does have an interest in feminist issues I'd be happy to make a full retraction with apology. I see N57's 2014 link below has me being branded a "misandrist", among other things. Funnily enough I don't remember that being called as a personal attack at the time. I also felt that N57s description of your position as "ridiculous" was if anything more attacking than "idiosyncratic" and "radical" which were the terms I settled upon. Why did you perceive one as an WP:ASPERSION but not the other? As regards the second point, my warning to Tvx1 was 100% serious. If they keep at it I have absolutely no doubt that you will soon have them here at ANI fending off WP:DRAMA and WP:WIKILAWYERING. In point three GiantSnowman did !vote so your objection doesn't make sense. GS always votes "Delete - fails NFOOTY, GNG". GS voted this way there, in the relevant AfD I linked from three years ago, and in each and every one of the recent spate of AfDs on female footballers. GS has likely been voting this way for over a decade. Does GS make a genuine search for sources every time to weigh up GNG? Or even a cursory one? You would have to ask GS but given the sheer volume of these !votes it seems improbable to me. So the comment was on the !vote itself not on GS. That is to say it addressed the content and the action, not the person (unlike GS's swipe at me below). Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Here he is calling trans rights activists 'transvestites'. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wow. That, as well as this later response, is pretty offensive, from the scare quotes around 'activists' to the implication that only a miniscule proportion of the population thinks that not using offensive terms about other people matters, to the assumption that only people personally affected by a slur would want to protest against it, to the underlying presumption that it doesn't matter if someone uses incorrect terminology if the topic is not (in their personal view) immediately relevant... and that doesn't even touch on the fact that they admit to not really caring about other people being abused. A serious and final warning is the minimum here, and combind with the PAs, an indef does not seem to be undue. --bonadea contributions talk 09:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. I see now that 'transvestite' was not a well chosen word and I can't defend its use there. Although used out of thoughtlessness and ignorance rather than malice, that is no excuse. It was a stupid isolated comment made in the heat of the moment and not - I hope - representative of my editing before or since. On reflection I will strike the offending paragraph and offer a sincere apology. I am also likely to self-impose a topic ban to prevent me letting myself down in that manner again. Clearly I should stick to the soccer... Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wow. That, as well as this later response, is pretty offensive, from the scare quotes around 'activists' to the implication that only a miniscule proportion of the population thinks that not using offensive terms about other people matters, to the assumption that only people personally affected by a slur would want to protest against it, to the underlying presumption that it doesn't matter if someone uses incorrect terminology if the topic is not (in their personal view) immediately relevant... and that doesn't even touch on the fact that they admit to not really caring about other people being abused. A serious and final warning is the minimum here, and combind with the PAs, an indef does not seem to be undue. --bonadea contributions talk 09:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reading just the above, it's clear to me that BbDS has made a habit of making personal attacks. I'd be inclined to re-indef, unless a reasonable counter case is made. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:43, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've found this user to be nothing but a pain, to both myself and other editors. Serious attitude problem. I'd support an indef. GiantSnowman 07:24, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not (quite) intellectually dishonest enough to pretend this is a 'personal attack', GS. But its of a piece with anything I've posted in the three diffs in the OP. Arguably slightly unbecoming of an admin - although in the circumstances I can't really begrudge you a fly kick at me here! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- For context, it's also worth noting that BbDS previously edited as Clavdia chauchat and exercised their right to vanish after being blocked for personal attacks – see this ANI report from 2014. Number 57 09:00, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so that's why they took an instance dislike to me! GiantSnowman 09:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked for 24 hours, apparently, which John offered to cancel if I recanted. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so that's why they took an instance dislike to me! GiantSnowman 09:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just a comment for now. This user in the past has been resistive to efforts they perceive as instructing their behaviour; my most favourite version of that sentiment is this comment on performative contrition. For some background have a look at this October 2016 discussion. I do believe that the user sincerely misinterpreted the standard offer at that time and was treated somewhat harshly for it, and after having it explained and going out of their way to thumb their nose at my advice, it seems they actually did take it. Their April 2017 appeal was a genuine exploration of their behaviour and it was easily accepted. All of that is to say: I think they're here for the right reasons, and capable of listening to advice when it's given gently.
- We should also note that in the past this user (under their many usernames) has suggested they are subject to ongoing harassment, which it seemed to me at the time of our last interaction to likely be the case. A user working in content creation for female athletes attracting gender-based harassment is no big surprise. However, they have indeed already been told many times that they should contact an administrator if that is the case, not respond with personal attacks.
- And having said that, I have noticed there have been a lot of AfD nominations for biographies of female football players just over the last month or so, correlating quite neatly with reports in various places about Bring Back Daz Sampson's incivility. While it's probably not harassment per se, for someone who works in an underrepresented topic to have much of their work broadly put up for deletion, as though someone is on some kind of mission, it likely stings. Still, no personal attacks is policy.
- All that I guess to say I don't know what to do here, it's complicated. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- There have only been four AfDs on female footballers since the start of May and none of them were articles created by BbDS. Number 57 13:20, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ivan, I don't remember ever using the word harassment myself. I've got a thick hide and can take the brickbats with the bouquets. If my skin was as thin as some on here my latest comeback might have lasted two weeks, not two years. All that said, the fact is, yes, it's often a toxic environment for us women's sports editors. Your links reminded me of Hmlarson - a much smarter, more stable and resilient editor than me. It seems even they have now been ground down and had to basically give up and walk away, which I think speaks volumes. I also remember LauraHale, another exceptionally gifted editor constantly subjected to WP:BATTLEGROUND by editors of - shall we say - more prosaic abilities. Such accomplished content editors are indispensable to Wikipedia as no-one else can do what they do. As diverse role models and mentors they are also invaluable as a bulwark against groupthink and the petty tyranny of the 'average Wikipedian'. There is a persuasive argument that gold standard contributors like this deserve a measure of extra protection here (Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi) Maybe a fast track to adminship under a sort of Rooney Rule? Such progress is probably still a few years away yet. But in the meantime they should still get no less than the same treatment and protections extended to other editors. I'm not trying to bracket myself along with Hmlarson and LauraHale, by the way, this was more of a general point to follow on from what you said.
- Football (soccer) is a passionate game, an emotive subject, and sometimes tempers will run high while editing in that area. I am sure that GS and N57 will back me up that WP:FOOTY is a teeming cauldron of bad editing, non-notable sub-stubs, pedantic quibbling over statistics, IP vandalism etc. etc. I dare say that policing the minutiae of obscure image copyright policies is a very important job. I just can't pretend to share Marchjuly's enthusiasm for it. Clearly there are some wider philosophical differences here as well as the content dispute over NFC#UUI #17, but trying to get each other blocked is not the best way to deal with that.
- As for our previous interactions Ivan, with hindsight I do believe that you were - as you saw it - trying to talk some sense into me. I recall you were working up to your admin position at the time and on something of a 'charm offensive' which made me wary. Also, if you ever get blocked (I hope not) you will find that strangers turning up unsolicited at your talkpage can feel a bit ghoulish. The fact that you are still here saying the same sort of things convinces me that you were sincere and my doubts were unfounded. I appreciate that you have kept an open mind and a balanced approach when others have not. You are correct to say that I thumbed my nose at your advice and I was wrong to do so. Although I'm disappointed you seem to have settled on giving me a thumbs down verdict, I hope you can reconsider based on the evidence presented elsewhere in my response. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I was ever on a charm offensive, but I can see your point. Maybe it was Hmlarson in that discussion that suggested harassment, and if I was trying to be unusually polite in that discussion it was because she seemed to have lined me up as your enemy. I can't read Bbb23's mind but I'd guess that he wouldn't have bothered cutting off your talk page access if Hmlarson hadn't been so adversarial. But that's all, what, three years ago now? I should respond to the rest in another part of the thread. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:53, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- There have only been four AfDs on female footballers since the start of May and none of them were articles created by BbDS. Number 57 13:20, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- The reason I am here is that I was notified of this discussion because I had previously suggested removing a block on this editor to give her another chance. I am a great believer in giving blocked editors another chance. I have now checked all of her comments on talk pages and other discussion pages from 23 April. (In "comments" I do not include such edits as archiving her talk page, adding categories or WikipProject banners, and so on.) When she is not expressing disagreement with other editors there is no problem, but in every single edit in which she expresses disagreement with one or more other editors she does so in a belligerent and contemptuous manner, doing such things as throwing insults at them and accusing them of incompetence or bad faith. An indefinite block on this account was lifted on the basis that she had acknowledged her past faults and would avoid doing the same again. I checked her editing immediately after that unblock, to see whether she had at first done better and then slipped back, or whether she had never improved. For a long time she simply didn't make comments in discussions at all, but when she returned to doing so the very first talk page comment she made after the block contained a personal attack. Looking through the history of her many accounts (12 that I know of; there may be more) I see that she has repeatedly been blocked and then claimed that she will not do the same again. As far back as December 2013 an editor wrote in an ANI discussion "This user is incapable of civil behaviour", and her actions since then have done nothing but confirm that impression. Over the course of more than five years there have been I don't know how many blocks on her various accounts, there have been ANI reports on her, discussions of her editing on talk pages of different accounts, and assurances from her that she now understands what was wrong with what she was doing, and she won't do it again. If she were at all likely to improve then she would have done so by now. Ivanvector says she is "capable of listening to advice when it's given gently", but listening to advice and then not taking it is no use. I don't see the evidence of "ongoing harassment", but perhaps Ivanvector can link to it; I do, however, see an editor who interprets civilly-expressed disagreement with her as harassment or attacks, and responds with attacks. The last indefinite block was lifted following recommendations from Ivanvector and me that it be lifted. Ivanvector said then "it seems apparent you know what went wrong that led to your block", and at the time I agreed with that, but knowing what went wrong is no help if that knowledge does not lead to a change in her ways, and it hasn't. I supported an unblock "to give him or her another chance". Giving her that other chance has not succeeded, and the indefinite block should therefore be restored. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can't disagree with anything JamesBWatson wrote here. "Belligerent and contemptuous" describes my previous interactions with the user as well, notwithstanding what I wrote above. I wasn't aware of accounts predating Sevcohaha, but if this has been going on for six years without any marked improvement except when they need to convince someone reviewing an unblock request, then it's time we stopped playing their game. I support restoring the indefinite block, and they're going to have to do something better than swear they won't do it again this time. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:26, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- When I created S.L. Benfica (women's football) and it was sent to AfD within 24 hours I promptly "expressed disagreement" at the AfD. Far from being belligerent and contemptuous I actually apologised for not adding more sources. I then collaborated with the AfD nominator SLBedit at the page itself and the talk page. I think it is developing into a nice little article and between us we have even added the club's players, taking assiduous care to only create the notable ones with national team caps. Despite my frequent criticism of the football notability rules in their current form (which some editors seems to take personally) I do respect them to the letter in my editing. I played a small part in SounderBruce's dramatic recent overhaul of the 1999 FIFA Women's World Cup. You will see that points 1, 2 and 4 express disagreement with the article as it then stood. Bruce's response to me said he disagreed with putting some of my suggestions straight in the article without further sources. No problems. The PR ended and I got back to Bruce a short while later for another friendly interaction on his talk page: "I think x might be notable?" Response: "No I disagree, I don't think it is." Again all very standard, civilly expressed disagreement. I then politely asked an admin to restore Kim Sun-hui. They were unable to do as I asked so I thanked them for their time and went on my way.
- Even at Graham Linehan where it was fairly heated before I got there, with all sorts of "bias" and "whitewashing" allegations flying about, I made a single WP:BOLD edit, based on WP:BLPSOURCES concerns. When that didn't fly, I followed WP:BRD and stuck to the talk page. I apologised and refactored a comment another editor disagreed with. I had better address more fully my ill-conceived activity at Graham Linehan: the article was what the Americans might call a "dumpster fire" with urgent WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE and WP:COATRACK issues. So my extended RfC was a worthwhile exercise in that it did bring more eyes and some modest improvements. But a rough consensus of previously-uninvolved editors emerged against my position which I accepted and I stepped back, after rather churlishly returning fire at a user called Bastun. I had originally weighed in at the Graham Linehan article with genuine intentions but endured quite a bruising experience outside of my football comfort zone, due perhaps to naivety and an overestimation of my own ability to bring about the required changes. Frankly, I feel much, much worse about what happened there than what Marchjuly is trying to accuse me of here.
- So, even if we delimit this investigation to comments from my rare "expressions of disagreement" with other editors (a rather circular argument in itself), "every single edit" is simply not true. I can point here to evidence of long-term harmonious, productive interaction and editing which makes your characterisation of me both inaccurate and unfair, JamesBWatson. Even if we accept that I have made serious personal attacks here (which I don't), the years between them and your previous examples mean they have been episodic in nature rather than chronic as you have tried to imply. I am not incorrigible. I am very far from the recidivist portrayed in your post. My last block ended over two years ago and was for WP:SOCK. I have not and will not SOCK ever again and my penance is this ludicrous username. My block for edit warring with a personal attack was, I think, more than three years ago now. Since the block I have never edit warred and will always now seek assistance when needed. When one of my creations was recently subject to IPs persistently adding various madey-up birthplaces, I requested page protection. Shortly afterwards I requested protection on another article which was getting v serious BLP violations. That request was turned down - wrongly in my view - which I took on the chin.
- At Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Women's football task force/Open tasks it's pretty quiet and there isn't much chat, but me and a few other hardy perennials keep things ticking over. We're a little busier at the moment and I'm getting plenty of notifications as I am the proud creator of articles for a decent chunk of all the players at the soccer World Cup which is currently happening in France. For a few years now I've been as active as anyone at WP:WOSO and I don't think I've ever been involved in any conflict there. I've contributed happily to WP:WIR edit-a-thons etc too. During one such edit-a-thon, WP:WIR promoted one of my article creations on Twitter with a small factual error in the accompanying blurb. I pointed out the error to them, which they immediately corrected. Again from what I remember the exchange was quite cordial, perfunctory rather than "belligerent and contemptuous". Perhaps you'll wish to exclude all this from your deliberations because it isn't narrowly focused on me disagreeing, er, disagreeably. I'll argue that it is relevant though, because this is what I spend 99.9% of my time on Wikipedia doing and why I am here. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think that any claims of harassment should be taken seriously and looked into per WP:AOHA, but doing so means that diffs need to be provided as examples of this type of behavior to make sure it's not just a case of WP:HA#NOT. It appears that this editor was using other accounts before Sevcohaha; in their April 2017 unblock request they mentioned two specifically by name (Clavdia Chauchat and Målfarlig!), and stated they would declare all of their previous user names on their user page if their account was unblocked. They never got around to doing that and maybe there's no point in doing so now, but a listing of all of the accounts and perhaps and explanation as to why (at least as best as can be remembered) they were created might be helpful in figuring out if they were really harassed. I posted here because of my concerns about the three comments I referenced in my OP. I don't see this editor being harassed by anything posted in any of those three particular discussions; they weren't even mentioned by name prior to their posts. Rather, I see the posts as an attempt to try and insert personal comments about others the editor might have previously had disagreements with over various things Wikipedia; an attempt to use the discussions for per WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:SOAP and WP:RGW reasons. They appear to have been more upset by who was posting comments than what was actually being discussed, which is probably why their comments focused more on specific editors and their perceived flaws than actual content. It was a chance to take a cheap shot at another editor they might not really like; so, they took it. Maybe they hoped the other editors would lose their cool and do something that would get them in trouble; maybe they figured their last unblock combined with all of their positive contributions over the years would outweigh any behavior issues. You can't really tell someone they aren't truly being harassed if they feel they are, but specific examples are going to be needed so that the community can make a proper assessment. Personally, I don't think trying to use WP:BIAS as a de-facto justification for continuously attacking others or casting aspersions is a good approach to have been following, and, as pointed out by Ivanvector, it would've been much better instead to get administrators involved at a much earlier stage. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- But you have a marvellous gift for sifting other users' edit histories, Marchjuly. I'm sure if you clicked on the 2014 link supplied by N57 above you could harvest some striking examples of the flak aimed in my direction. Flak which puts anything under consideration here firmly in the shade. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just going to add one more diff for reference because I think it further illustrates what JamesBWatson mentions above about how this editor responds when they agree with someone and how they respond when they feel someone is in their way or otherwise preventing them from doing something they want to do. Swarm's response here to a WP:RFP/A request made by this editor doesn't seem to be rude or harassing in any way, and even seemed to include a request for further clarification. However, when the editor posted here on another editor's user talk page a little over a month later, they seemed to feel the need to label Swarm as a jobsworth (just reading the first sentence of the "jobsworth" article should be enough to understand why refering to a Wikipedia administator in such a way is probably not a good idea); not specifically mentioning Swarm by name seems irrelevant here because it wouldn't take much to figure which editor was being discussed. Anyway, I have no idea whether either Swarm or this editor remembered their earlier interaction regarding the Målfarlig! account and it affected their response, but this editor could've posted something on Swarm's user talk further explaining why they wanted to be "autopatrolled", even after the request had been formally denied here. Instead, this editor somehow felt entitled to take a cheap shot at Swarm on some other editor's user talk page, even though the response to the "jobsworth" comment given here actually seems to agree with what Swarm posted at RFP/A. This is similar to what was done in the three diffs I referenced in my OP in that the a personal comment about another editor was added when pretty much the same thing could've easily be stated without posting anything good or bad about anyone else. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Really? Even by the standards of the first three examples of so-called personal attacks this is getting pettier and pettier. Speaking charitably, it is now into the realms of the surreal. I gather that as the "accused" I am expected to take on a wholly supplicant role at ANI, but I will stand by my use of Jobsworth and offer you a detailed explanation as to why. In the UK, the term Jobsworth can be used humorously. Sure, it is informal but not necessarily derogatory, much less abusive. The background was that Swarm tried to set me a bizarre 'homework' task, expecting, I think, the written regurgitation of some basic Wikipedia policies. This homework assignment was set in the middle of the night where I live and when I hadn't responded less than 72 hours later my RFP/A application was summarily booted out. Is this normal? Had I been the sort of editor given to making personal attacks I suspect I would have furnished Swarm with one there and then. In Swarm's defence I suppose there's nothing stopping anyone taking it upon themselves to make up arbitrary additional criteria on this sort of random, ad hoc basis. Equally applicants would be under no obligation to indulge any additional criteria they diagnosed as pointless and/or demeaning. Clearly in my case it was superfluous - and so it proved when I was rubber-stamped at RFP/A shortly afterwards without any such fuss. I didn't remember any previous interactions with Swarm and I sincerely doubt they connected me to my previous incarnations. I doubt anyone would connect my Jobsworth remark to Swarm either, unless they were interested in conducting a detailed 'audit' of my edits like you seem to be here. Would Swarm have felt attacked by my exasperated Jobsworth outburst - which didn't even mention them - had they seen it? Would they have cared? Even a teeny bit? I can't speak for them but I have my doubts - I certainly wouldn't have done. In terms of potential for disruption to the wider Wikipedia community it wasn't exactly seismic.
- Perhaps given the chance again Swarm and I would have both done things differently. Once I'd realised Swarm was apparently serious about wanting the homework I remember shaking my head and chuckling to myself at the impertinence. But other editors who lacked my patience, empathy and good sense of humour may have been turned off. The ensuing month or so taken up needlessly 'patrolling' my article creations could have been put to better use, easing the large backlog of new articles which actually needed to be patrolled. Maybe this very minor kerfuffle being cast up again six months later will give us both an opportunity to learn and grow? Although I rather suspect both of us had quickly forgotten all about it and had already moved on. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can't disagree with anything JamesBWatson wrote here. "Belligerent and contemptuous" describes my previous interactions with the user as well, notwithstanding what I wrote above. I wasn't aware of accounts predating Sevcohaha, but if this has been going on for six years without any marked improvement except when they need to convince someone reviewing an unblock request, then it's time we stopped playing their game. I support restoring the indefinite block, and they're going to have to do something better than swear they won't do it again this time. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:26, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Placeholder comment to stop this being archived, to give chance for BBDZ to respond. GiantSnowman 15:26, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Placeholder comment to stop this being archived. GiantSnowman 09:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Bring back Daz Sampson: do you wish to comment? GiantSnowman 17:18, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Your OP did not give a neutral outline of our dispute, Marchjuly, which I have tried to rectify. You have also rounded up admins involved in my previous problems and carefully selected others. So much so that I fear that you are sailing very close to the wind in terms of WP:CANVASS and WP:ADMINSHOP. I acknowledge that you withdrew your last posting and agree it was crass. Albeit I don't think it was out of place alongside the rest. As I tend to edit quietly and eschew WP:DRAMA, I am obviously not fighting on my home turf here at ANI. You on the other hand appear to have an inordinate presence here, relative to your editing. Roughly how many of these reports would you say you have filed now? Are you a serial complainer? You certainly seem to know the buttons to press and the buzzwords to hit - throwing in a couple of decorative nods to balance always plays well with the admins. I would prefer to see some honesty. Notwithstanding your claims to want "not even an apology", there is fat chance that you breathlessly typed out these essays and dragged me here to bring about a mere finger wagging. I know well enough - given my problems a few years ago - that another block would be an effective site ban and there would be no way back this time. So while this may be sport for you the stakes are much higher for me. As ANI is definitely not my thing - despite editing consistently I haven't been here for over two years - I have been idly reading through some other postings. Trying to take the 'temperature' to assist me in writing my responses. It is startling to me just how high the bar is set here for actionable personal attacks. The case above mine was about someone saying 'asshole [...] cunts [...] wank pheasant' which seemed to me like pretty strong meat. Result: no action taken. Incredibly, we also appear to have users telling each other to 'fuck off' all over the place, not least at this noticeboard itself, which is somehow (!) tolerated. You have tried to pad out your complaint with some irrelevant material already dealt with years ago, but at its crux you are claiming a breach of WP:NPA. Despite me assisting your case by being a bit of a wank pheasant at Graham Linehan, you haven't come anywhere close to establishing that I have made any personal attacks severe enough to be dealt with here. Finally, the various impugned parties on whose behalf you have raised these matters (N57, GS, Swarm) could presumably have meted out warnings or blocks themselves had they felt it necessary. The reason they didn't is that the matters are trivial. And if they set their thresholds that low, they wouldn't have time for anything else besides blocking and then dealing with the fallout. Am I a perfect editor? No - but who is? I've shown in my response how seriously I take my responsibilities here. If you continue making notices like this, then next time (or the time after, or the time after) someone will eventually "join the dots" and realise that you are the common denominator in your frequent trips to this noticeboard. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you believe a BOOMERANG is warranted, please provided diffs. If you believe I've been edit warring or making personal attacks, please provide diffs. If you believe I've been editing against/ignoring consensus, please provide diffs. I've asked you previously to provide diffs here and here in support of accusations you've made against me, but you never got around to it. Perhaps, you can do so now?I notified people of this ANI because they were either specifically mentioned by name or had something to do with a previous block or unblock request. I'm not trying to pad out a complaint against by bringing up your past, but pointing out that you've been recently exhibiting the same behavior that led you to be blocked before. Your past editing history (regardless of how many accounts you may have used or how many times you might have been blocked/unblocked) is relevant because you gave assurance that you would not repeat the mistakes you made before. One of our first interactions apparently was about User talk:SevcoFraudsters#File:Sheffield FC.svg where you decided edit warring and personal attacks would be acceptable substitutes to discussion, and from what I and others have posted above, you seem to be reverting to (at least) the personal attacks approach once again.As for UUI#17, your narrative seems to be that (1) I created UUI#17 (not true), (2) I'm the only editor nominating or who has nominated files for discussion at NFCR/FFD for this reason (not true), (3) I'm going against whatever consensus was reached at NFCR/FFD and continue to remove files from articles just because I don't like the consensus (once again not true). I can provide diffs showing that (1), (2) and (3) are indeed untrue if needed. You make specific reference to files being used in the Bhutan and Haiti national team articles as examples of me exhibiting this type of behavior. Can you please provide diffs showing the consensus that was established about these files and me removing them contrary to this consensus? FWIW, I wasn't even a participant in the Bhutan file's discussion, and I wasn't the only participate in the Haiti discussion who !voted that the file should be removed from the team articles. Again, I can provide diffs showing these things. Regardless, both discussions were closed by administrators (just like the Sheffield FC one referenced above) who then removed the files from various articles and removed invalid non-free use rationales from the files' pages. There are many more NFCR/FFD discussion where a file has been removed for UUI#17 reasons: not all of them were related to sport team logos, and not all of them were discussions that I even participated in. The closes for these various discussions were made by different administrators and were pretty consistent in that this type of non-free use was considered not to comply with relevant policy. I'm not telling these administrators how to close these discussions or what the consensus should be; they are making that decision on their own. FFD is like any other XFD discussion is that an administrator closes based upon whether they believe a consensus was established; so, if you disagree with their close, you can discuss things with them as explained in CLOSECHALLENGE. If I subsequently removed the Haiti and Bhutan files from team articles or any other file from a team article, it was done based upon the closes of one of these discussions. If a new consensus is established overturning these closes, then the files and corresponding non-free use rationales will be re-added. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- So are we looking at a dispute over non-free content criteria then, with some spillover? That should be fairly easy to work through, WP:NFCC is not open to debate in most cases. But is WP:NFCC#UUI #17 the right recommendation from those lists? By my thinking, a women's affiliate to a men's football club is not (necessarily) a "child entity" that "lacks its own branding". It's an affiliate, which uses the same branding as the affiliated club (unless they have their own logo). It's not like the ladies are running around the field in plain white tees - they're clearly identified by the logo they use. So WP:NFCI #2 should apply.
- But! These matters are decided by discussion, and if you have a lot of editors saying UUI#17 and none saying NFCI#2, then admins' hands are tied. No amount of questioning editors' "feminist credentials" is going to do much to change that. And Marchjuly is correct that the way to object to that sort of deletion is to take it up with the closer, c.f. WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Or start a discussion to clarify NFCC between UUI#17 and NFCI#2 for this particular circumstance, to hopefully head off problems in the future. But much smarter people than me drafted that policy (with its legal considerations) so I'm just going to watch for that. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:12, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, We actually have such a discussion at WT:NFC and it actually futured a lot of editors sharing your view and thus saying NFCI#2 and not NFCI#17. But because said discussion was not formally assessed and closed Marchjuly refuses to allow it being used as a basis for including the contested type of NFC in national team's articles. That has been debated for a while now at WT:FOOTY and the reported user made one snide comment there and then apparently they were reported here. I was pinged here despite not being involved directly and all in all I feel this report is a bit of an overreaction. Anyway, I have posted a request to have the aforementiontioned discussion finally assessed over WP:AN/RFC and I am patiently awaiting for said request to be actioned.Tvx1 10:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not refusing to allow anything. I just don't agree with your assessment that the discussion reached the conclusion to overturn the way the policy had been applied by various administrators (including some who participated in the discussion) up to an including that point and has continued to be applied since that discussion was archived more than three years ago. Near the end of the discussion, there seems to have been at least one other editor who also felt that an RFC would be better than talk page discussion to try and resolve this since it would effectively need to go back a void/overturn quite a number of FFD/NFCR closes related to this type of file use. This editor even made a suggestion about adding something about this to the MOS for FOOTY articles. You were pinged for a response at the time but never responded. It looks like your last comment in the discussion was on June 24, 2016, but the discussion continued on for another month. The last comments posted in that discussion seem to indicate that there were still some differences of opinion, but there were no further comments after that and the thread was archived a little over a week later. It didn't directly result in an RFC, but that doesn't mean one couldn't be started now to try and sort this out for once and for all. At the same time, if you're only interested in the close of single file like the Bhutan one, you can follow CLOSECHALLENGE and see what the closing admin has to say; you, however, feel there's no point in doing that because the discussion was so long ago. At the same time, if you want to clarify or change the policy in some way and build upon the previous discussion, you can restart it at WT:NFCC. You make it seem as if I'm pulling the strings of all the administrators who have removed files from articles for this reason over the years, or that I am somehow influencing the administrators who reverted your attempts to re-add the file to the Bhutan article here or to re-add non-free use rationale for the Bhutan team article to the file's page here. The administrator who reverted you at the Bhutan article was even one of the main participants in the WT:NFCC discussion, yet you posted at FOOTY that he was most likely not aware of the WT:NFCC discussion. There were maybe 10 editors participating in that particular discussion, three of which are admins (one who has closed quite a number of FFD discussions and removed files from articles for this very reason and two others who were actually involved in the NFCR discussion which led to the Bhutan's file removal from the team's article) and not one of them in the three years since the discussion was archived has tried to claim the consensus your claiming now or even just tried to re-added the Bhutan file to the team's article because they believed the NFCR discussion related to it had been overturned. You've made statements about me edit warring (even though removing files removed per an FFD/NFCR discussion is listed as one of the exemptions to 3RR) without providing diffs or even seeking administrator assistance. You've accused me of being POINTY and insisting that nothing valid came from that particular discussion, even though I've never claimed such a thing (1, 2) and am pretty much saying the same things now that I posted here and here three years ago. which actually indicates WP:NOTPOINTy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't read all of that, to be quite honest, so my apologies if my response misses a point you made. It seems to me the issue of which fair use principle applies needs to be resolved before we start enforcing one interpretation or another. I'll try to follow for when someone takes a look at that thread (my opinion makes me WP:INVOLVED) but there's a lot going on right now. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: Basically, a non-free file was removed from an article per Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive 55#File:Bhutan FA.png. This is one of many NFCR/FFD discussions where a non-free file was removed from an article (sometimes even from more than one article) for the same reason. Tvx1 is arguing that Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 66#Application of WP:NFC#UUI #17 resulted in a new consensus with respect to this type of non-free use, which effectively overturns all of these closes (or at least one particular close) and also overturns how the NFCC was and still is being applied by various administrators to this type of non-free use. Bring back Daz Sampson pinged Txv1 and brought up my disagreement with Tvx1 about this matter because he thinks it proves his claim that I’m the one continuing to edit against consensus in dozens if not hundred of cases. He might even see my behavior as somehow justifying his having to resort to SOCK and EVADE (some of the reasons for his previous block) because I somehow am able to influence admins who deal with non-free file use to close discussions in a certain way that I desire or to block editors who disagree with me and try to interfere with my apparent crusade against certain types of non-free use. — Marchjuly (talk) 16:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × maybe? weird server error) Look, I'm not even going to try to evaluate conduct issues here until there's some formal resolution to the matter of fair use of these images. Another admin might, I'm not the King of Non Free Content or anything. But I think that as long as both of you have competing interpretations of the guideline that you're trying to enforce, this is just going to go in circles. I don't see anything at this point that merits a one-sided sanction. I'll say though, Tvx1, I think it might be more productive to start a new discussion on this topic rather than try to glean a consensus out of one that fizzled three years ago. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: I wasn’t requesting that either you or some other admin sanction Tvx1. I didn’t ping them into this discussion. Moreover, as I posted in my OP and even though he doesn’t apparently believe me, I’m not asking for Bring back Daz Sampson to be re-blocked. I’m still just only asking that he be warned to avoid commenting on other editors and stick to commenting on content as well as to avoid reverting back to behavior that previously led to one of his previous blocks and that he said he would no longer repeat. Others have suggested reblocking, but I haven’t stated so even once. I didn’t seek him out and post some things at WT:FOOTY in the hope that he might see them and perhaps post something that might end up getting him reblocked. In all of my interactions with him and his various accounts, I don’t think I’ve ever not been civil. I might not have agreed with him, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually commented on him as a person. So, if whomever closes this discussion decides that no action need be taken, then I won’t challenge it. Same goes if others after reading everything posted above decide to change their minds about what they posted. — Marchjuly (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector:, I might take one of the suggested steps but first I think it would be helpful if that old discussion is assessed to give us a starting point, even if the closer just says: "have more discussion". In the mean time it would be nice that me patiently waiting for the AN/RFC request to be actioned, not be seen as me showing a bad faith unwillingness to take any other step. It would also be nice if Marchjuly would stop to post a wall of text containing the steps they insist I must take on every relevant talk page or notice board I post. I have seen their "instructions" clearly now, it's not necessary to repeat that over and over and over again. Experience has taught me that it can take some time until an AN/RFC request is actioned, so for now I prefer to be patient. I didn't think we had a WP:DEADLINE on this? Tvx1 10:13, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- If the AN/RFC request results in a new consensus as being established, I will respect it as such. I may ask for clarification of it, but I won't ignore it. If the request results in a no consensus or suggestion for further discussion, I'm happy to participate in any such discussion, and am assuming there would be no objection to me doing so. Anyway, my understanding of our disagreement is as follows.
- A non-free file was removed by an administrator from the Bhutan team article per the consensus established at Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive 55#File:Bhutan FA.png back in August 2014.
- A general discsussion about the application of the WP:NFCC to this type of non-free use was held at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 66#Application of WP:NFC#UUI #17 back in June–July 2016. The discussion was archived in August 2016. Your opinion posted at a recent WT:FOOTY discssussion, is that the WT:NFCC discussion established a new consensus regarding this type of non-free use; I, however, disagree with that assessment. You've requested that the WT:NFCC discussion be formally closed at WP:AN/RFC#Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 66#Application of WP:NFC#UUI #17. In your request, you posted
I believe it would be immensely helpful if this discussion were properly closed and thus consensus assessed, so that we know what is the best step to take next (e.g. more discussion)
, which I think means that, for at least the time being, the consensus established by the 2014 WP:NFCR discussion (at least with respect to this particular file) still applies. - Item 5 of WP:3RRNO states that removing content which unquestionably violates the NFCC is considered an exemption to 3RR and edit warring. It also states that what counts as an exemption can be controversial and should be established as a violation first, perhaps through discussion at WP:FFD. NFCR used to be where non-free content use matters were discussed, but that page has been incoporated into FFD. FFD used to be "Files for deletion", but was changed to "Files for discussion" after NFCR and WP:PUF were incorporated into it. The file's non-free use in the Bhutan team's article was "unquestionably" established as a violation of the NFCC by the NFCR discussion; otherwise, it wouldn't have been removed from the team article. Again, I'm assuming here that the consensus established by that 2014 NFCR discussion is still in effect, which means there was no violation of 3RR or any edit warring.
- If the WP:AN/RFC request leads to a close which does state that a new consensus was established to allow this particular type of non-free use, then I'm assuming it would apply to all such files and not just the Bhutan one: which means it might overturn all previous NFCR/FFD discussions related to this type of non-free use, not just the NFCR about the Bhutan file. Of course, this may depend upon the specific wording of the close and the scope established by the closer. On the other hand, if the close states that no new consensus was established or that further discussion is needed, then the previously established consensuses for each of these files would continue to remain in effect until they are individually overturned or a new general consensus is established for this type of non-free use which overturns them all at once. You posted that you prefer to be patient and wait to see what happens at AN/RFC, which I think means that the current consensus (or at least the consensus established prior to the concerned WT:NFCC discussion) still remains in effect.
- Does the above roughly sum up where things currently stand? -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- If the AN/RFC request results in a new consensus as being established, I will respect it as such. I may ask for clarification of it, but I won't ignore it. If the request results in a no consensus or suggestion for further discussion, I'm happy to participate in any such discussion, and am assuming there would be no objection to me doing so. Anyway, my understanding of our disagreement is as follows.
- (edit conflict × maybe? weird server error) Look, I'm not even going to try to evaluate conduct issues here until there's some formal resolution to the matter of fair use of these images. Another admin might, I'm not the King of Non Free Content or anything. But I think that as long as both of you have competing interpretations of the guideline that you're trying to enforce, this is just going to go in circles. I don't see anything at this point that merits a one-sided sanction. I'll say though, Tvx1, I think it might be more productive to start a new discussion on this topic rather than try to glean a consensus out of one that fizzled three years ago. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: Basically, a non-free file was removed from an article per Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive 55#File:Bhutan FA.png. This is one of many NFCR/FFD discussions where a non-free file was removed from an article (sometimes even from more than one article) for the same reason. Tvx1 is arguing that Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 66#Application of WP:NFC#UUI #17 resulted in a new consensus with respect to this type of non-free use, which effectively overturns all of these closes (or at least one particular close) and also overturns how the NFCC was and still is being applied by various administrators to this type of non-free use. Bring back Daz Sampson pinged Txv1 and brought up my disagreement with Tvx1 about this matter because he thinks it proves his claim that I’m the one continuing to edit against consensus in dozens if not hundred of cases. He might even see my behavior as somehow justifying his having to resort to SOCK and EVADE (some of the reasons for his previous block) because I somehow am able to influence admins who deal with non-free file use to close discussions in a certain way that I desire or to block editors who disagree with me and try to interfere with my apparent crusade against certain types of non-free use. — Marchjuly (talk) 16:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't read all of that, to be quite honest, so my apologies if my response misses a point you made. It seems to me the issue of which fair use principle applies needs to be resolved before we start enforcing one interpretation or another. I'll try to follow for when someone takes a look at that thread (my opinion makes me WP:INVOLVED) but there's a lot going on right now. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not refusing to allow anything. I just don't agree with your assessment that the discussion reached the conclusion to overturn the way the policy had been applied by various administrators (including some who participated in the discussion) up to an including that point and has continued to be applied since that discussion was archived more than three years ago. Near the end of the discussion, there seems to have been at least one other editor who also felt that an RFC would be better than talk page discussion to try and resolve this since it would effectively need to go back a void/overturn quite a number of FFD/NFCR closes related to this type of file use. This editor even made a suggestion about adding something about this to the MOS for FOOTY articles. You were pinged for a response at the time but never responded. It looks like your last comment in the discussion was on June 24, 2016, but the discussion continued on for another month. The last comments posted in that discussion seem to indicate that there were still some differences of opinion, but there were no further comments after that and the thread was archived a little over a week later. It didn't directly result in an RFC, but that doesn't mean one couldn't be started now to try and sort this out for once and for all. At the same time, if you're only interested in the close of single file like the Bhutan one, you can follow CLOSECHALLENGE and see what the closing admin has to say; you, however, feel there's no point in doing that because the discussion was so long ago. At the same time, if you want to clarify or change the policy in some way and build upon the previous discussion, you can restart it at WT:NFCC. You make it seem as if I'm pulling the strings of all the administrators who have removed files from articles for this reason over the years, or that I am somehow influencing the administrators who reverted your attempts to re-add the file to the Bhutan article here or to re-add non-free use rationale for the Bhutan team article to the file's page here. The administrator who reverted you at the Bhutan article was even one of the main participants in the WT:NFCC discussion, yet you posted at FOOTY that he was most likely not aware of the WT:NFCC discussion. There were maybe 10 editors participating in that particular discussion, three of which are admins (one who has closed quite a number of FFD discussions and removed files from articles for this very reason and two others who were actually involved in the NFCR discussion which led to the Bhutan's file removal from the team's article) and not one of them in the three years since the discussion was archived has tried to claim the consensus your claiming now or even just tried to re-added the Bhutan file to the team's article because they believed the NFCR discussion related to it had been overturned. You've made statements about me edit warring (even though removing files removed per an FFD/NFCR discussion is listed as one of the exemptions to 3RR) without providing diffs or even seeking administrator assistance. You've accused me of being POINTY and insisting that nothing valid came from that particular discussion, even though I've never claimed such a thing (1, 2) and am pretty much saying the same things now that I posted here and here three years ago. which actually indicates WP:NOTPOINTy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, We actually have such a discussion at WT:NFC and it actually futured a lot of editors sharing your view and thus saying NFCI#2 and not NFCI#17. But because said discussion was not formally assessed and closed Marchjuly refuses to allow it being used as a basis for including the contested type of NFC in national team's articles. That has been debated for a while now at WT:FOOTY and the reported user made one snide comment there and then apparently they were reported here. I was pinged here despite not being involved directly and all in all I feel this report is a bit of an overreaction. Anyway, I have posted a request to have the aforementiontioned discussion finally assessed over WP:AN/RFC and I am patiently awaiting for said request to be actioned.Tvx1 10:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- ...Jeez. I probably shouldn't have called Marchjuly a "time burglar". But if that's now the only charge left against me I'm pleading 'veritas' and citing this thread in evidence! Within this avalanche of pompous verbosity there is, I think, evidence of an insidious, passive-aggressive form of incivility which ultimately is much more damaging and disruptive than occasional mild outbursts of frustration from those of us on the receiving end of it. That said, I must accept that neither party's conduct here has been faultless. To bring this to a conclusion I would be minded to accept a short block of seven days or so, provided that the sanction is applied evenly to both me and Marchjuly. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 11:28, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Page move topic ban for Ortizesp
This issue was previously raised at ANI here on 10 May 2019 but it was archived with no action taken.
Since that discussion, further editors have raised issues with page moves, including @MYS77: here. Ortizesp said he would start using RM here, but he hasn't, and MYS77 had to raise the issue again with him here. Today I have had to revert another undiscussed page move involving the Rubén García Rey article.
Based on the above, given the number of editors who have raised concerns about/reverted his page moves, and given the number of broken promises to stop, it is clear that Ortizesp lacks the competence to make page moves. As such, we need an indefinite topic ban from making any undiscussed page moves, and he can only nominate using WP:RM. GiantSnowman 07:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse topic ban: Ortizesp is not reaching any compromise when it comes to moving pages, and has not kept his promise of using RMs to raise opinions over the page moves. MYS77 ✉ 13:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse TBAN with v. minor exception - repeated issues despite agreement otherwise seems to warrant a TBAN. I've spotted a few things in your edits that look like they will turn either into AfC drafts or articles. If this generates any 1-off redirects that should be fine, but otherwise it needs to cover all pages. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I simply disagree that moving Rubén García Rey needed nomination from WP:RM. Rubén García Rey is simply not his common name, and all external links and references state that. Most of my moves follow this logic, and i believe are valid. Obviously you and MYS77 disagree with my moves, but they are generally uncontroversial. I haven't used WP:RM because I'm leaving those pages for later, for actual controversial moves. In case you guys haven't learnt, it is recommended to be bold - and not the other way around.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:03, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- As @SMcCandlish: said at the last ANI, "Hint: If people are controverting your moves, then they are controversial". The fact you still cannot see that is very concerning, and raises WP:CIR issues. GiantSnowman 14:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- This runs the risk of going stale and being archived again, despite a clear problem. Can somebody please comment/close with implementation of the topic ban? GiantSnowman 19:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Placeholder comment to stop this being archived. GiantSnowman 15:26, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Placeholder comment to stop this being archived. GiantSnowman 09:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: I've tagged this thread with a DNAU so it won't be archived until 18 June. Blackmane (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I would say topic ban would only work if the user know if they violate, then it have some consequence. I would support the TBAN or just straight temp block. Most of the time except typo, WP:RM of real person are rarely not controversial, especially now there is some dispute in the disambiguator such as Alisson (footballer, born 1992) v. Alisson Becker. Matthew hk (talk) 09:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, there is no formal TBan, but this issue was raised in ANI for a few times. I am not sure enforcing a formal TBan and delivered the TBAN statement to his user talk page, has any change, if he seem did not know what is happening. But anyway, lets give him a final chance by giving him a formal Tban. Matthew hk (talk) 10:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- While there's no definition over the subject, he's still doing the same thing (i.e. Jaime Asensio de la Fuente and Fidel Chaves de la Torre). Not a single compromise, and for every new page I create, he's moving it. I would add a WP:HOUND on this too, aside from the TBan. MYS77 ✉ 14:46, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was also reading the old ANI about him, and I've noticed that he thinks "it's normal to make errors and learn from them, and at least it's not the same kind of error being made continuously". The thing is that his mistakes are quite the same since the old ANI until now. MYS77 ✉ 14:51, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Request an immediate indefinite IBAN of Hijiri 88
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would like to get some help from the community and or administrators to get an IBAN in place for Hijiri 88. Hijiri has been following me, and harassing me, accusing me of copyright violations and now accuses me of racism. I do not follow this editor to harass - or stalk the editor’s articles and to vote against the editor's positions. I follow the editor only to defend myself. I do not revert the editors edits. I do not speak to the editor in my afd ivotes or comments, or in my edit summaries. This is a big encyclopedia - yet this editor cannot seem to resist following me, and stepping on my work here and now is casting WP:ASPERSIONS by calling me a racist to other users. Last week I asked for a block or IBAN. Then Hijiri 88 said they were going offline and made some ridiculous comments about me on their talk page about me being a stalker (this is also WP:ASPERSIONS). The ANI I opened was closed with no result and after just two days Hijiri 88 came emboldened to immediately follow my edits and make claims about me being a racist. I want to apply for an immediate IBAN.
If I were able to deal with the editor Hijiri's bullying and unfounded accusations alone I would not bring it here to the community. As I pointed out in the last ANI I filed- Hijiri has a long history of this behavior.
Here are Hijiri 88’s follows of me for just one day June 3.
Here Hijiri is now claiming I am a racist WP:ASPERSIONS for my WWII reference on my user page which has zero to do with Hijiri. I am a former history teacher and I have made no mention of this editor. Accusing me of racism on another user's talk page And accusing me of racism on Hijiri's own talk page
I will need to apply for an IBAN until I get some relief from this editor's WP:FOLLOWING, WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:HARASSMENT.
- Support as proposer" Lubbad85 (☎) 14:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Support I fail to see how you are being "racist" by remembering the attack on Pearl Harbour, which was a sneak (unexpected)attack that came to the surprise of pretty much every nation at that time. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 14:26, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Oops I misread that. Better rescind this comment as I clearly have no idea what this is about. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 14:44, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hijiri 88 Petitioning a voter directly to change their vote doesn't seem right. Lubbad85 (☎) 16:25, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just gonna note that Lubbad has apparently been going around distributing barnstars to pretty much everyone involved in this and the previous ANI thread. I'm not going to publicly speculate on exactly what the motive for issuing mass thank-yous to everyone, regardless of how minimal their involvement in the thread has been, or which "side" they are on, except to say that it's pretty weird. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hijiri 88 Petitioning a voter directly to change their vote doesn't seem right. Lubbad85 (☎) 16:25, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - I say this as someone who's never interacted with either editor. I see Hijiri returning from Wikibreak and jumping into 4 more AfDs Lubbad85 participated in. Oldest / Longest / Kelly / Resistance with the opposite vote each time. There are many articles for deletion, why must Hijiri follow Lubbad85? starship.paint (talk) 14:52, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Iridescent, Boing! said Zebedee, and Toa Nidhiki05: - what about these incidents? If Hijiri88 had a problem with Lubbad85, they could have attempted something like ANI. But here we have quite clear following. starship.paint (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
they could have attempted something like ANI
I did. Lubbad was told to stop harassing me like he had been doing. He made a single bad-faith feint at "friendship" on my talk page before going right back to harassing me. He then opened an ANI thread and should have been hit with a boomerang for his harassment and personal attacks against me and other editors, but these were ignored because the copyvio (which was already at CCI and so, IMO, didn't need an ANI discussion) was taken as being more serious. After the ANI thread was closed and archived, he immediately went straight back to harassment and personal attacks (not just at me but also at other editors at the AFDs you link to -- at the 6.3 one he took a needless shot at Banner who had already withdrawn their nomination, and at the Gould one he repeatedly made bad-faith canvassing accusations and insinuated that Bearcat was a serial deletionist who was misrepresenting policy). There were already two ANI threads that failed to deal with this issue because of Lubbad's WP:IDHT attitude toward the advice of others. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)- @Hijiri88: - so you took them to ANI on 16 May, but you still followed them on 3 June after you returned from Wikibreak. I don't see 6.3 as a shot at Banner, and even so, 5 others, including you, also commented later, 4 saying keep. Indeed, he shouldn't have commented on Bearcat at the Kelly AfD. So they may have had problematic responses in 1/4 AfDs in my view. Still, you followed them to all 4. starship.paint (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- At the "twins" and "marriages" AFDs Lubbad (and the other "keep" !votes) are arguing for the preservation of pretty blatant OR and SYNTH, and at Gould Lubbad not only argued that his insertion of trivia about how she was uncomfortable cursing on film when she was seven-ish made the article not just a list of films she was in, but said she wasn't "faking her notability", which is either speculating about the subject and her involvement in Wikipedia in a manner that arguably violates BLP, or is accusing the delete !votes of doing the same. I have no intention of arguing with you that I am in the right on the 6.3 article; that's for the AFD closer to decide, and I frankly don't care all that much one way or the other. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: - so you took them to ANI on 16 May, but you still followed them on 3 June after you returned from Wikibreak. I don't see 6.3 as a shot at Banner, and even so, 5 others, including you, also commented later, 4 saying keep. Indeed, he shouldn't have commented on Bearcat at the Kelly AfD. So they may have had problematic responses in 1/4 AfDs in my view. Still, you followed them to all 4. starship.paint (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was party to that first ANI (where I agreed what they had said was a PA) and it did not say "stop harassing" anyone. The close was "stop bringing these petty disputes here" (And as you were the filer it was aimed at you).Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- The close, as clearly indicated by the diff above, was "Stop doing that", which was directed at Lubbad, in reference to the blatant personal attack; it probably could have gone further and explicitly said something like "stop baiting Hijiri, and definitely don't stick a bunch of random jabs against the country he chooses to call home on your user page". Yeah, the demand that I no longer bring to ANI harassment and personal attacks like the one Lubbad made in mid-May, and like the ones he's been making in the past few days, did discourage me from opening more ANI threads about, for instance, the bizarre Pearl Harbor references; but it doesn't discount the fact that Lubbad was told to stop harassing me and he did not. Anyway, in the past year I think I've filed a total of three ANI reports on issues involving me (not including random trolls/socks/whatever I noticed and thought ANI was the best way to handle it) so one editor's opinion that I repeatedly bring every little "petty" dispute to ANI is just simply wrong on its face. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- The close said not to bring such trivialities to ANI,and for Lubbad85 to make no more comments of that kinds, it says nothing about harassment. Now maybe he has been warned not to harass you elsewhere, but not in that ANI. It says nothing else.Slatersteven (talk) 14:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I responded to the first, inaccurate, draft of the above on your talk page, before noticing that you'd posted a more accurate accounting here. The above is basically a fair recounting, but it fails to take into account that the opinion that I have been bringing "every tiny little thing" to ANI simply is not backed up by the facts -- heck, it was noted further up by another user arguing against me that I should have used ANI to report the harassment, but frankly I've lost a lot of faith in ANI doing its job, and so have been just "bearing the cross" whenever something like this happens, and waiting for someone to notice. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:29, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- No it does not, as the point you made was it was telling someone not to harass you, which it does not (thus I take into account all relevant information, and just point out it was not quite as one sided as you imply). Maybe if you had reported them for harassment you might have got the response you did, rather then for PA's (when you did get the response you wanted, they were told not to do it). Indeed I find it odd that having raised a minor issue at ANI (and got the result you should have wanted) you claim there is no poi t in reporting a more serious matter. It is clear form this thread that you would have in fact got what you wanted, you just did not bother.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I responded to the first, inaccurate, draft of the above on your talk page, before noticing that you'd posted a more accurate accounting here. The above is basically a fair recounting, but it fails to take into account that the opinion that I have been bringing "every tiny little thing" to ANI simply is not backed up by the facts -- heck, it was noted further up by another user arguing against me that I should have used ANI to report the harassment, but frankly I've lost a lot of faith in ANI doing its job, and so have been just "bearing the cross" whenever something like this happens, and waiting for someone to notice. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:29, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- The close said not to bring such trivialities to ANI,and for Lubbad85 to make no more comments of that kinds, it says nothing about harassment. Now maybe he has been warned not to harass you elsewhere, but not in that ANI. It says nothing else.Slatersteven (talk) 14:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- The close, as clearly indicated by the diff above, was "Stop doing that", which was directed at Lubbad, in reference to the blatant personal attack; it probably could have gone further and explicitly said something like "stop baiting Hijiri, and definitely don't stick a bunch of random jabs against the country he chooses to call home on your user page". Yeah, the demand that I no longer bring to ANI harassment and personal attacks like the one Lubbad made in mid-May, and like the ones he's been making in the past few days, did discourage me from opening more ANI threads about, for instance, the bizarre Pearl Harbor references; but it doesn't discount the fact that Lubbad was told to stop harassing me and he did not. Anyway, in the past year I think I've filed a total of three ANI reports on issues involving me (not including random trolls/socks/whatever I noticed and thought ANI was the best way to handle it) so one editor's opinion that I repeatedly bring every little "petty" dispute to ANI is just simply wrong on its face. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was party to that first ANI (where I agreed what they had said was a PA) and it did not say "stop harassing" anyone. The close was "stop bringing these petty disputes here" (And as you were the filer it was aimed at you).Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Anyone reviewing this, have a good read of this thread before going any further. There's considerably more to this than meets the eye; as far as I can see, Hijiri88 spotted Lubbad85 engaging in cut-and-paste plagiarism, called them out on it, and Lubbad85 has spent the subsequent two weeks trying to needle Hijiri88. ‑ Iridescent 14:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: per Iridescent, I would definitely support indeff ban for Lubbad85. The copyright violations and the harassment against the editor who remove his violations(making false ANI reports) is enough to get him indeff banned. I don't this editor have made any good faith edits, all are copyright violations. I am not involved in this but I have seen enough of harassment against Hijiri and I think admins should step up and stop this nonsense.--SharabSalam (talk) 15:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me? I said nothing of the kind; what's this
per Iridescent, I would definitely support indeff ban
nonsense coming from? We don't indef people for being annoying, much as I'd love it if we could; I concur with those below in pleading with you to stop commenting on processes you don't understand as your attitude at ANI is just aggravating editors who are already upset. ‑ Iridescent 20:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)- Iridescent—I'm pretty sure SharabSalam meant they "oppose per Iridescent", not "support an indef per Iridescent". It's pretty common for people to misuse commas like this, and now we see why punctuation matters. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me? I said nothing of the kind; what's this
- And the diffs links aka "following me" drama, are laughable. ADF discussions. XDDDDDDDDDDDDD. "Following me and speaking to me in edits" wow that's awful, speaking to you in edits??!! How awful-- SharabSalam (talk) 15:24, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose after reading this thread, and suggest there might be bendy wooden things flying soon. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: what are we supposed to infer from the thread you link? It's old, in any case, dating to before the previous ANI report, which was closed without action. I'm not sure how it's relevant to this case. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mainly that we've seen a very poor attitude from Lubbad85 towards Hijir88, that Lubbad85 responds poorly to civil critique of genuine (and serious) problems, and essentially that there's more backstory here than Lubbad85 is telling us. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:42, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: My previous request for help at ANI was closed - and one of the reasons was because Hijiri88 claimed to taking a wikibreak and that was mentioned by the closing administrator as a reason to not go farther with the case. Regarding my own editing here on WP, there is no plagiarism... some accidental paraphrasing which has already been fixed. Hijiri88 has accused many editors of copyright violations as I pointed out in the last ANI - it is a useful weapon. None of this gives Hijiri88 the right to call me a racist. My request is for the community or administrators to see that this editor harasses me and then cries victim. In ANI last week Hijiri88 followed and reverted user eggroll97 after a vote in support of my request, and now Hijiri88 has petitioned user kingerikthesecond to change their vote. I am asking the community for protection. Calling me a racist without proof should be reason enough to enforce an IBAN. An IBAN does nothing to hurt the community or Wikipedia. Lubbad85 (☎) 17:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- No need to bring me into this again. I already removed myself from this discussion as I misunderstood it entirely. My points are null; I am not in favour of a punishment towards you or Hijiri. I am going to sit on the fence again. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 17:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, and this should WP:BOOMERANG back at Lubbad85. This is verging on harassment of Hijiri88 at this point. Toa Nidhiki05 17:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—having read through this and the last one, and the discussion Iridescent links to, it's clear that this is just harassment. I don't know if Lubbad85 should be blocked or banned or anything, but there should be some sort of restriction on them bringing this back up. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- A 2 way IBAN will not hurt anybody. No harm comes to Wikipedia from a two way IBAN. For my part I do not edit where Hijiri88 edits and I do not interact with the editor in any way. Regarding Hijiri88's claims that I am a copyright violator. The accusation was made by Hijiri88, and now it has stuck to me like glue. Editors have gone through all of my started articles and major contributions - as any other editor is welcome to do. The WP:following behavior started long before Hijiri88's claims of copyright violations. The WP:following by Hijiri88 began when I started helping the Article rescue Squad. As I pointed out in my only other request for help on this forum: Hijiri88 began following me and calling me out in comments, and edits and edit summaries, as soon as I began working with ARS. I ignored the editor until finally Hijiri88 was tendentious on a deletion review - I responded to the editor on the deletion review. Then Hijiri88 came to my talk page to extend their comments, and at that point (on my own talk page) I told Hijiri88 to "get out of the basement and take a walk". These were my first ever words to Hijiri88 after ignoring the editors tendentious editing, commenting and following. Hijiri88 took me to ANI for the comments on my talk page, and the item was speedy closed. Hijiri88 has had issues with other users on Article Rescue Squad. Most recently ARS contributor Dream Focus was granted an IBAN with this editor for the same reasons that I am asking for an IBAN: Hijiri88 accused Dream Focus of Copyvio and harassed and followed Dream focus. I became a target of Hijiri88 at the point that I started on Article Rescue Squad. In conclusion, like all of you here, I do not want to be harassed or to be accused of racism. I do not want to spend my time in here when I could be editing. I do not want to waste time on negativity. I want Hijiri88 to leave me alone, and for my part I will leave Hijiri88 alone. If a two way IBAN can accomplish this, I am all for it. Lubbad85 (☎) 02:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support 2-way IBAN. It is clear these two editors don't get along, and are intent on needling each other - I think there's a strong case that both have not acted well since the last ANI. Hijiri does seem to have followed Lubbad to the specific AfDs mentioned, given that all !votes were after Lubbad's and Hijiri did not visit any other AfDs on the day in question. But then again, the comment about Pearl Harbour on Lubbad's homepage seems to have been reasonably clearly targeted at Hijiri. These two just need to keep out of each other's way. — Amakuru (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support 2 way IBAN This has been going on for almost a month now, with one or the other filing ANI's. In all fairness whilst (as far as I know) the initial attack was aimed at Hijiri88 it's also clear they have no backed of either. No harm can come from a 2 way (if wither user genuinely is not going to poke the other), and achieved the aim (I would hope) of ramping down the drama.Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - The evidence presented clearly shows that Lubbad is disruptive in more ways than one, and they need to be monitored and coached at best, indeffed at worst. Hijiri's clearly acting in the best interest of the project here, and I'd be inclined to block unilaterally next time this user claims they're being harassed. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Thank you for your kind words regarding
Hijiri's clearly acting in the best interest of the project here
(and sorry to take an "is" 's and make it a possessive 's). But I feel the need to point out that Lubbad's been told all the above before (the thread linked by Iridiscent above shows me politely advising Lubbad that he was on his way to a block, which he later chose to interpret as a threat). WP:IDHT is perhaps the single biggest problem here, which is why I've proposed below that he be issued with a formal final warning that he can't wriggle out of like the last two times. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:55, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Thank you for your kind words regarding
- Support – Yes this is the best way to nip the problem at the bud due to issues with both users' editing.Eliteplus (talk) 13:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- [1] ...is it weird that I'm a little creeped out by this string of new editors suddenly showing up to ANI specifically to propose sanctions against me? (Yeah, I know the above account has existed for two years, but the above is its fourth edit outside the mainspace, and its first to the Wikipedia space. There were also those two that showed up last week, one of whom also showed up here again today.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:54, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose (any action against Hijiri 88, since it has now become unclear what people are supporting in this section.) No credible evidence is offered of any unacceptable behaviour by Hijiri 88, and quite a lot of evidence of firm, but patient interaction. Marginal hypersensitivity perhaps, but not hounding nor accusing another editor of racism.Pincrete (talk) 16:59, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose one-way IBAN against Hijiri because it misses the mark, and also oppose 2-way IBAN because neither editor really wants that, and because both editors have expressed a desire to avoid the other in the future. So that's basically a voluntary 2-way IBAN anyway, and I think we should WP:AGF and give it a shot. Let's see if they voluntarily avoid each other going forward. If not, then we can look at a formal IBAN (one way or two way depending on the evidence, but depending on the evidence from this point forward). – Levivich 01:38, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- I assumed this was a two way IBAN, I suspect others have as well.Slatersteven (talk) 08:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 1: One-Way IBAN
Something needs to be done, and it is User:Lubbad85 who is causing the disruption.
I propose, as the first, and what I recommend, alternative, which is a one-way interaction ban without the usual exceptions, so that User:Lubbad85 is absolutely banned from interacting or commenting on User:Hijiri88. This will allow Lubbad85 to continue editing as long as they stay clear of Hijiri88 and recognize that Hijiri88 and other editors take copyright seriously. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I do not communicate with Hijiri88. Not in my edits, not in edit summaries, not on afds, not on any talk pages, I do not talk with other users about Hijiri88. So a one way ban against me seems like an inappropriate application of IBAN. It is me who asks for an IBAN because the user speaks to me in all of those ways, and now accuses me of racism to others and in public. I do not have a long history here on WP, however my history does not show me to be an editor who requires IBAN - not in this case, nor any other. I ask the administrators to close these two additional proposals and respond to my proposal regarding protection from Hijiri88's racism accusations Lubbad85 (☎) 17:43, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) IBANS include opening ANI threads, and frankly we're all sick of the endless threads on Hijiri you keep starting. It also probably isn't the wisest idea to try to shut down proposals on a boomerang, but there's no explicit rule against it, so just know that ANI is a two-way street- you opening this thread opens you wide to criticism of your own behavior as well as Hijiri's. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support after all of this, it is now obvious that something should be done to stop Lubbad85 from doing what they are doing. They wasted Hijiri88 time and our time.--SharabSalam (talk)
- Support Per SharabSalam. This needs to stop. Toa Nidhiki05 18:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose a no-exceptions IBAN; as worded, Lubbad85 wouldn't be able to respond if Hijiri88 were to request a WP:CCI, or nominate an article on which they've worked for deletion. I would have absolutely no issue with a broad "any more shit from you and you're no longer welcome" formal final warning; Assuming good faith is a fine policy, but it doesn't mean the rest of us should be expected to clean up messes indefinitely once it's been explained that something isn't acceptable. ‑ Iridescent 19:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't want my name to be mentioned on WP:RESTRICT. I have historically had one-way IBANs with two other editors -- one of them ended with a third party repeatedly claiming it was a two-way IBAN, and reading the singular "they" in the ban's wording as meaning an unrelated TBAN also applied to me, and me having to request the ban be lifted for that reason; the other ended with the banned party complaining how unfair the one-way IBAN was and it being upgraded to a two-way IBAN for basically no other reason. Also, IBANning Lubbad would not actually solve the problem (not just copyright, but also the habitual personal attacks and harassment of anyone who disagrees with him -- see what he's been doing to Bearcat on the Gould AFD), and would only make it easier for him to claim I'm "poking the bear" and making unfair actions to which he can't respond by not withdrawing my CCI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose a no-exceptions IBAN, as per Iridescent. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose one-way IBAN against Lubbad for the same reason as I oppose the proposals above–a one-way IBAN misses the mark here, and since both editors have expressed a desire to avoid the other, we should see if that works before burdening the community with imposing a formal sanction. – Levivich 01:38, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 2: BAN
If you don't like that, the alternative is a boomerang ban. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 17:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Neutral. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Support this was already suggest in here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1010#User:Hijiri88 repeated harassment and hounding.. There was a consensus to actually sanction Lubbad85 for copyvio and boomerang. It was a mistake that the discussion was closed because Hijiri took a break. If the discussion continued there, Lubbad85 would have been sanctioned already.--SharabSalam (talk) 17:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC)- Support indeff block per WP:DCV for copyright violations, the editor was warned about copyvio and he constantly reported Hijir who removed his copyvios claiming that Hijiri is harassing him see user_talk:Hijiri88#Freinds. this was already suggest in here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1010#User:Hijiri88 repeated harassment and hounding.. There was a consensus to actually sanction Lubbad85 for copyvio and boomerang. It was a mistake that the discussion was closed because Hijiri took a break. If the discussion continued there, Lubbad85 would have been sanctioned already.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Some type of action should probably be taken. Not sure if it should be an indef ban or just a limited amount of time but this user is harassing people and making serious breaches of policy on Wiki pages. Toa Nidhiki05 18:03, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose None specific sanctions.Slatersteven (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, assuming that, per the definition at WP:SBAN,
Unless otherwise specified, a ban is a site ban
, and that a site ban is essentially indistinguishable from a community indef. As I said at last week's ANI thread, I would have supported a final warning that any more copyvio or revenge harassment would result in an indef block. This really should be the last straw. I would also not be opposed to this thread ending in a final warning (not a slap on the wrist like last time but "you're going to be blocked for a long time on your next infraction"), similar to Iridescent's "any more shit" comment above. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:09, 5 June 2019 (UTC) - Support this is getting beyond a joke. Lubbad85 clearly is a disruptive influence on the project, as I said in the previous thread copyvio is a very serious matter and continually bringing Hijiri88 here for having the temerity to call them out on it only doubles down on the probllem and exacerbates it. Site ban Lubbad85 ASAP, please. - Nick Thorne talk 01:40, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, as someone described it below, this vague, hand-waivy, "something something off with his head" ban. A site ban is way over the top. Begoon's advice below is excellent. Clear warnings identifying the problematic behavior, issued by an uninvolved experienced editor or admin, followed by closure of this whole thread, would probably be most helpful IMO. – Levivich 03:10, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral I don't think either editor has conformed themselves to a high standard since the last ANI was closed, and I would support some sort of block for both of them, but, CCI report aside as that's serous and justified, I think the project would be better off at this point if the two editors involved can just agree to stop antagonising each other and wasting our time here. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, because it's not clear what sort of ban individual people are supporting here and there's a general feel of "I support something but I don't know what". It was clarified below by the proposer, but obfuscated again by the "But I am interested in any lesser type of restriction..." addition. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support "Editor gets caught violating CCI by second editor and files a retaliatory ANI report full of bunkum as revenge." That pretty well sums up the previous ANI thread, and if things ended there, warnings and "let's do better" closures would be fine. But Lubbad85 has a stick, won't drop it, and is trying to use ANI to bash Hijiri for expecting Lubbad85 to adhere to really basic and significant rules of editing. I don't see how a boomerang isn't justified. Grandpallama (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- You don't see how a community site ban isn't justified for an editor who has never been (as far as I can tell) blocked, sanctioned, or even formally warned? Let me give you one potential reason why that's not justified: because we should try something less than the ultimate sanction as a first step. – Levivich 17:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I see how someone who has been on Wikipedia for barely seven months is quick to lecture others and discuss the community as if he were a longstanding part of it. I also see how a problematic editor here has engaged in copyright infringement, reacted largely in a very poor manner to being caught, and has repeatedly tried to get the person who caught him "in trouble" by filing numerous reports, which is fundamental bad faith and a serious misuse of these boards that goes beyond the initial CCI issue. Grandpallama (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Those might be reasons to issue a warning, or an IBAN, or maybe a TBAN, but a site ban, for someone who's never been sanctioned or even formally warned before, is way over the top. – Levivich 18:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nothing over the top for someone who violates copyright. Grandpallama (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Those might be reasons to issue a warning, or an IBAN, or maybe a TBAN, but a site ban, for someone who's never been sanctioned or even formally warned before, is way over the top. – Levivich 18:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- I see how someone who has been on Wikipedia for barely seven months is quick to lecture others and discuss the community as if he were a longstanding part of it. I also see how a problematic editor here has engaged in copyright infringement, reacted largely in a very poor manner to being caught, and has repeatedly tried to get the person who caught him "in trouble" by filing numerous reports, which is fundamental bad faith and a serious misuse of these boards that goes beyond the initial CCI issue. Grandpallama (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- You don't see how a community site ban isn't justified for an editor who has never been (as far as I can tell) blocked, sanctioned, or even formally warned? Let me give you one potential reason why that's not justified: because we should try something less than the ultimate sanction as a first step. – Levivich 17:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, since the proposal based solely on the interaction between the two. Now there may be other reasons for banning Lubbad (e.g. I am seeing comments in this section alleging any or all of WP:CCI, WP:CIR and WP:NOTHERE on their part; but those are topics to be tackled elsewhere, and I am not commenting on them here). But on the interaction itself, IMHO I see two parties who don't get along and seem intent on trying to wind each other up through oblique references on user talk pages and other prickly comments. But not to the point of warranting punitive action. That's why I recommend an IBAN which would ensure they can both continue to contribute without reference to the other, and be quickly blocked if one or other does infringe again. — Amakuru (talk) 15:07, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, but I'd say the ban should not be indefinite. Maybe six months instead? Rockstonetalk to me! 19:04, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Something has to be done, and a one-way interaction ban with the usual exceptions isn't strong enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I have never been in trouble on Wikipedia, and I came here because there was not a resolution last week. My perception was that I still had a problem with the other editor following me. The issue I brought to this ANI is an issue between two editors. I came to ANI because it was the only available process, as I knew it. I did not intend to offend anyone here on ANI. I love to contribute to Wikipedia and I only want to be left to do that in peace. I have a long productive history on Wikipedia. This experience however, has been mind numbing and stomach turning for me. Reading through this ANI board, it seems many complaints often wind up with no consensus and a frustrated administrator who has to weed through the threads.
- Here are some guarantees regarding my own behavior which I can make going forward:
- I will not perpetuate the problems or the controversies submitted on this ANI.
- I will treat ANI regarding the other editor as off limits, My only request is that I am not followed by the other editor.
- I will not respond to the other editor and I will not interact with the other editor.
- Assuming for the sake of argument that there were copyright violations in the past: it will not happen in the future.
- In conclusion, the goal of ANI should be to solve a problem (and it has for my part). If discipline should be required it should be progressive and corrective, not punitive and destructive. We are all trying to build an encyclopedia together and we should ask how a resolution on ANI will contribute to that mission. I hope to work with you all in the future under better circumstances.
- I am interested in fixing the problem, not fixing the blame. To that end: A dual IBAN is acceptable to me because it likely fixes the problem between me and the other editor. I sincerely apologize to all concerned, including Hijirii88. 02:00, 6 June 2019 (UTC) Lubbad85 (☎)
- User:Lubbad85, re: "My only request is that I am not followed by the other editor", that's unworkable as a condition unless a 2-way ban is imposed - which has already been rejected, quite rightly IMO. You have to understand that another editor editing on the same page as you, even apparently 'following' you, in not inherently WP:HOUNDING. The essence of hounding is that it is done largely for the purpose on annoying, not simply that it does annoy. How do we assess intent? Subjectively, whether we think the editor had some legitimate reason to question edits, or was just 'needling' for its own sake. Pincrete (talk) 18:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - definitely, the wrongdoing as presented here isn't at a level to warrant an immediate site ban, the harshest punishment out there. In this case, escalation is warranted. starship.paint (talk) 07:34, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. In no way is this merited. Would the person who proposed this please sign the proposal? Softlavender (talk) 09:48, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as draconian and unnecessary, a discretionary indef and the subsequent appeal process should be allowed to work like normal, jumping straight to a proposed CBAN is out of process. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:33, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 3:One-Way IBAN with Usual Exceptions
Something has to be done. I think a one-way interaction ban with the usual exceptions may be gamed, but we need to do something. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- This proposal is that User:Lubbad85 be banned from interacting with User:Hijiri88. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:42, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Weak Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: - it's likely you're referring to Lubbad… you should explicitly say so. starship.paint (talk) 07:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- My omission. Thank you for calling it to our attention. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:42, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: - it's likely you're referring to Lubbad… you should explicitly say so. starship.paint (talk) 07:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Nothing sufficient to warrant this has been provided or demonstrated. Softlavender (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – per Softlavender and my oppose !votes above–this is unnecessary at this time and we should see if a voluntary separation works first. – Levivich 01:38, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 4: Final warning for Lubbad
As I said above (and said at the previous ANI thread, and thought was implied by the thread before that) I'd support a formal final warning of the kind Lubbad's disruptive behaviour (which consists of violation of copyright on both text and images, bludgeoning AFD discussions, badgering editors who disagree with them, factual misrepresentation in noticeboard reports, posting content on their user page that is clearly meant to cause offense to editors with whom they have conflicted in the past, generally behaving in an uncollegial manner, and refusing to listen to and/or take on board the advice of more experienced editors regarding these matters) has been noted by the community, and they are placed on notice that they may be blocked without further warning by any uninvolved admin should this behaviour continue.
and so I might as well propose it at this juncture. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:43, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging User:Iridescent, who said (no diff because the edit has been revdelled because someone posted something they shouldn't have before it, but it's the one time-stamped 19:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)) who said something similar (
I would have absolutely no issue with a broad "any more shit from you and you're no longer welcome" formal final warning
). I'm not sure if a broad "any more shit" would work, since I thought that was what he got three weeks ago from Floq, and it's definitely what he should have taken away from last week's ANI, so I think explicitly including a reference to his IDHT behaviour (refusing to listen to and/or take on board the advice of more experienced editors regarding these matters
) would be a good idea. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:52, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging User:Iridescent, who said (no diff because the edit has been revdelled because someone posted something they shouldn't have before it, but it's the one time-stamped 19:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)) who said something similar (
- @Hijiri88: I'd support this if you voluntarily agree to stay away from them as part of the proposal. After your wikibreak, only !voting opposite the way Lubbad85 voted in, and only picking AfDs that Lubbad85 had previously voted in, didn't help any of this. SportingFlyer T·C 00:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer:
If I haven't made my deep-seated desire to do just that clear over the past week, I haven't done my job right. :P That being said, such an agreement would assume as its primary prerequisite that Lubbad now has more eyes on him, not just regarding the copyright issues but everything else (note that in the AFDs you refer to, Lubbad was engaged in the behaviour alluded to above, and I could have easily seen that because of the ARS posting; I !voted the opposite way to Lubbad because virtually everyone would have !voted the opposite way to Lubbad, not just to undermine him). The CCI also needs to remain open (even my critics seem to agree with me there), and if anyone wants to add more diffs (including ones from the permalink to my sandbox, which also includes ones that probably don't need to be added, hence why I never got around to doing it myself) they should feel welcome. Also, if anyone pings me back into the CCI for whatever reason, or Lubbad edits a page on my watchlist (or Lubbad has repeatedly edited a page linked to from a messageboard on my watchlist), and I notice the same pattern of behaviour being repeated with absolutely no change, I might message an uninvolved admin (not, I need to stress, edit the same pages as him just to intimidate him). Under those conditions I wouldn't be violating a voluntary agreement to stay away from him, anyway.- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:14, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm striking the above, since it was meant specifically to get the support of SportingFlyer, who never responded, but my posting the above appears to have confused two or three editors further down into thinking I had accepted a voluntary editing restriction at some indefinite point in the past, and that my "violating" said restriction in ... some manner meant that Lubbad was without fault, and (apparently?) opposed this proposal for that reason alone. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: - I find this statement of yours extremely questionable:
I !voted the opposite way to Lubbad because virtually everyone would have !voted the opposite way to Lubbad, not just to undermine him).
- (1) If it really would be the case that virtually everyone would vote the opposite way, why is your vote needed? Here's the number of people weighing in before either of you: 7 at Longest, 6 at Oldest, 5 at Kelly, 6 at Resistance. It wasn't as if those AfDs were not receiving attention, you could have simply left them alone if virtually everyone would vote against Lubbad.
- (2) It was actually not the case that virtually everyone would have voted the opposite way to Lubbad. Let's see how many editors essentially voted similarly to Lubbad. 4 at Longest, 2 at Oldest, 4 at Kelly, 7 at Resistance. If you're telling me virtually everyone would vote the opposite way, frankly, I expect 0 or 1 to vote Keep. This was never the case here.
- As a result of your inaccurate statement, I have no confidence that you are able to interact with Lubbad properly. starship.paint (talk) 01:57, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Please stop haranguing me.
- (1) I explicitly said I wouldn't !vote the opposite way to Lubbad if I noticed him !voting disruptively in multiple AFDs going forward, so repeatedly questioning me about my !votes in AFDs that have already been closed or are about to be closed anyway is irrelevant.
- (2) The fact that some other disruptive editors who have themselves been called out multiple times for disruptive AFD !votes agreed with Lubbad in those cases is irrelevant. Your repeatedly emphasizing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/6.3 Resistance movemnet when I have asked you before to just let it go is noted.
I have no confidence that you are able to interact with Lubbad properly
Your personal opinion doesn't matter all that much to me. I don't want anything more to do with Lubbad (or you, for that matter) and have already stated multiple times, including immediately above, that I would be all to happy if he never darkened my doorstep again, so why are you badgering me about how you think I shouldn't be interacting with him?- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer:
- Support as the least disruptive, most drahamah-free solution. The "last warning" should apply to behaviour such as the "Pearl Harbour" stuff as well. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:43, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Curly Turkey:
posting content on their user page that is clearly meant to cause offense to editors with whom they have conflicted in the past
was meant to specifically cover the "Pearl Harbour" stuff. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Curly Turkey:
Oppose for now - not until substantial evidence of every charge listed above is actually provided here (best to collate it in one post, this is a mess), and even so (if such evidence is provided), it should be a package deal with Hijiri88 agreeing to stay away from Lubbad unless there are copyright violations, because Hijiri88 is clearly not faultless in this matter starship.paint (talk) 02:10, 7 June 2019 (UTC)Vote will be updated below. starship.paint (talk) 03:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Substantial evidence has been presented; you have ignored it because of some weird hangup you have about believing everything Lubbad says and ignoring everything everyone else says. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:19, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Collate it please, even as a reply to this very post, and I will check it out. starship.paint (talk) 02:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Okay...
violation of copyright on both text and images
Do I need to present more evidence of this? I guess the "images" thing hasn't been discussed much. As of January 27 (I was not the first person to raise this issue, by a long shot -- I was just apparently the first to notice that the multiple prior warnings were not working and the pattern was continuing) 11 out of 21 of the threads on his talk page were about orphaned non-free images and other image copyright problems.bludgeoning AFD discussions
The Kelly Gould AFD should be enough, but see also Kelly Meighen. That's just the BLPs on women named "Kelly". There's also the Jean Mill AFD.badgering editors who disagree with them
The above AFDs count, but see also the Kelly Meighen DRV and the previous ANI thread. There's also this string of bogus accusations and already-answered questions directed at an AFD closer.factual misrepresentation in noticeboard reports
Virtually everything he wrote in the previous ANI thread was bogus. The choicest examples, including the claim that I was still subject to an IBAN that I had successfully appealed in January 2013, are highlighted here. (See also below, where he accuses me of "still needling him" and gives a diff that's a week old, accusing me of addressing him in the edit summary when I did nothing of the sort. 03:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC))posting content on their user page that is clearly meant to cause offense to editors with whom they have conflicted in the past
[2]generally behaving in an uncollegial manner
This thread was linked to near the top of this discussion. It shows Lubbad, having been told off for an extremely offensive and unprovoked comment telling me to "get out of the basement", pretending to drop the stick and offer me friendship, me agreeing and offering him some friendly advice, him pretending to take the advice, and then him suddenly, two days later, showing back up and accusing me of not "assuming good faith" (when in fact that was exactly what I was doing -- compiling evidence for a CCI and specifically going out of my way to prevent him from being blocked because of the assumption that the copyvio was a good faith mistake) and then repeatedly escalating things without reason. Then there's encouraging a blatantly NOTHERE troll, apparently because of some "enemy of my enemy" nonsense. There's also the fact that, in response to me opening a CCI on him because of the undeniable copyright problem, he trawled through the last seven years of my edits to find all the most unpleasant experiences of my Wikipedia career, apparently just to make me feel miserable, deliberately misrepresented said experiences as me having been the "bad guy", and claimed I am currently still subject to two bans, one of which was appealed in March 2017 and the other in February 2013.[3][4]refusing to listen to and/or take on board the advice of more experienced editors regarding these matters
See the above -- I offered him advice, he pretended to take it, and then turned around and repeated the exact same behaviour as before. Also the first ANI thread, where he was told not to do "that" anymore and apparently took a very narrow interpretation of what "that" was, and the previous ANI, where a bunch of editors told him a boomerang would be coming his way, and then he jumped right back here at the first chance he got. Also, his response immediately below indicates he still doesn't recognize any problematic behaviour on his own part, and this pretty flagrant IDHT regarding the copyright problem:I am not a copyright violator
.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:58, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Please note that if your interpretation of any of the above differs from my own, I'd be happy to hash it out and amend the proposed wording to accommodate you, or to get more evidence to convince you of anything you might be on the fence about. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:14, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for striking. :-) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:56, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Okay...
- Collate it please, even as a reply to this very post, and I will check it out. starship.paint (talk) 02:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Substantial evidence has been presented; you have ignored it because of some weird hangup you have about believing everything Lubbad says and ignoring everything everyone else says. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:19, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support final warning only for copyvio. Support first warnings for badgering opponents, misrepresenting facts (even if unknowingly), possible offensive content on talk pages, needing to listen to other editors. Support reminders (assuming good faith) to not to bludgeon discussions and to edit collegially. I'd also advise both editors to steer clear of one another, though copyvio is an acceptable exception. starship.paint (talk) 05:30, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Starship.paint, I'm curious, which diffs persuade you a final copyvio warning is needed? – Levivich 05:44, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: - [5] - showed multiple issues with copyright, whether images or articles. starship.paint (talk) 05:58, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Thanks for the quick answer. That diff is from January, though. This May 28 edit is the only recent example of copyvio I am aware of (source). In the last ANI thread, Diannaa said "Spot checks going back to May 10 reveal no new copyright issues." The WP:CCI#Lubbad85 investigation does not appear to have completed yet, and the reported diffs there are all from September 2018 – January 2019 except for that May 28 one. On the image side, the most-recent (May 23) orphaned fair-use image file is no longer orphaned. Before that are a couple images in April that seemed to have been worked out amicably with Marchjuly (see threads here). Lubbad has said above (on June 6) that "it will not happen in the future". Just the May 28 diff alone may merit a warning, but I was wondering if you had seen something else recent. – Levivich 06:37, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: - thanks for informing me. Your earlier question actually prompted me to ask Hijiri88 for a more recent diff, and the same diff you provided (which I hadn't seen at the time) was also provided to me by Hijiri88. No, I haven't seen anything else recently, but the earlier behaviour is still concerning. starship.paint (talk) 08:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Thanks for the quick answer. That diff is from January, though. This May 28 edit is the only recent example of copyvio I am aware of (source). In the last ANI thread, Diannaa said "Spot checks going back to May 10 reveal no new copyright issues." The WP:CCI#Lubbad85 investigation does not appear to have completed yet, and the reported diffs there are all from September 2018 – January 2019 except for that May 28 one. On the image side, the most-recent (May 23) orphaned fair-use image file is no longer orphaned. Before that are a couple images in April that seemed to have been worked out amicably with Marchjuly (see threads here). Lubbad has said above (on June 6) that "it will not happen in the future". Just the May 28 diff alone may merit a warning, but I was wondering if you had seen something else recent. – Levivich 06:37, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: - [5] - showed multiple issues with copyright, whether images or articles. starship.paint (talk) 05:58, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Starship.paint, I'm curious, which diffs persuade you a final copyvio warning is needed? – Levivich 05:44, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I thank Levivich for looking into my recent editing to show that most of my deficiencies have been corrected. Growing as a Wikipedian is my goal! And I want to thank Starship Paint for being thoughtful about my future on the project. I have never been called out as bludgeoning or many of the things listed by the other editor. If reasonable minds think I have been bludgeoning I certainly need to listen to that and will stop. In regard to my discussion on the Jean Mill afd.. that should be called out as straight up ignorance. lol. (regarding the copyvio allegations in the past - a CCI was filed by the other editor so I will be awaiting that). Thanks. Lubbad85 (☎) 13:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The other editor is still needling me as of today. I started an article called - Jean Mill - and today 6/6/19 while this ANI is still open, Hijiri edited the article and spoke to me in the edit summary While we were in the other ANI - Hijiri reverted one of my edits and spoke to me in the summary as well. Perhaps the other editor enjoys poking me, but I do not enjoy this. As to the editor's list of grievances presented here..it is fiction. Really I have no energy to defend against all of these accusations - but they are quite hurtful to me, and they are WP:ASPERSIONS presented with no proof. I think this 4th proposal for a final warning to me, is because Hijiri already has had 6 IBANS and yet the editor refers to me as not-collegial? The 6 IBANS likely helped solve a problem and make Wikipedia a better place, which should be our goal - and which is why I asked for one. Anyway, sorry for bringing that up again. I do not wish to throw stones at Hijiri, but again, I just want to be left alone by this editor. I am going to log off and take a break to collect my sanity. I am not going to interact with the other editor as I have said yesterday. My hope is that an administrator mercifully closes this whole miserable thread soon. A 2 way IBAN is appropriate if I am harassing Hijiri, then Hijiri should want it too. And it will help us get on with the business of building this amazing encyclopedia. My best to you all. Lubbad85 (☎) 02:44, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- FTR, I have no idea who wrote that section of the Jean Mill article; the "you" in my edit summary was a generic "you", not specifically address Lubbad. I could say the same for this edit, but that was a week ago. I guess in the spirit of good faith I'll add on to my above promise to steer clear of Lubbad a promise to avoid editing articles I know Lubbad has been involved with in the past to avoid any potential misunderstandings, and that if I absolutely must edit such pages I'll engage in due diligence to make sure I'm not directly reverting one of his edits. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: The revert of my edits during the last ANI was called out as a bad idea by an admin and my guess is the edit from 6/6/19 would be called "poking the bear" - but I am over this argument. It is less than truthful to say the editor did not know it was my edit. The editor seems to be throwing everything at me to see what sticks. I have apologized for whatever part I have played in this drama and for bringing this thing to ANI. We should ask how is Wikipedia best served. How can a result on this ANI serve the building of this encyclopedia? My assurances to the community are above in one of the many proposals. Regarding the other editor, I am sure that without all of this grinding the other editor must have great value here. Otherwise the other editor would have been banned for the many fights and discipline the editor has received on the project. So I have been steering clear, and will continue to do so. I hope to continue to contribute and grow as a Wikipedian. If the other editor could stop trying to get a pound of my flesh, and agree to a 2 way IBAN will likely solve this problem and serve Wikipedia, maybe we can put this ugly ANI to bed. Lubbad85 (☎) 13:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- FTR, I have no idea who wrote that section of the Jean Mill article; the "you" in my edit summary was a generic "you", not specifically address Lubbad. I could say the same for this edit, but that was a week ago. I guess in the spirit of good faith I'll add on to my above promise to steer clear of Lubbad a promise to avoid editing articles I know Lubbad has been involved with in the past to avoid any potential misunderstandings, and that if I absolutely must edit such pages I'll engage in due diligence to make sure I'm not directly reverting one of his edits. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Hijiri is clearly still messing with Lubbad, in spite of assurances that he wouldn't, as seen in this edit from less than four hours ago. I don't think anything is going to work except either a one-way IBan imposed upon Hijiri, or a two-way IBan. One does have to wonder how and why Hijiri keeps collecting IBans (either one-way or two-way) like a bee collects pollen; clearly there is some problem with the way he interacts with a lot of editors. Wikipedia has very clear procedures for dealing with (and reporting) problem edits; and stalking, hounding, and antagonizing editors are not part of any of them. Softlavender (talk) 04:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: I never made any "assurance" -- I offered to voluntarily steer clear of him, assuming this proposal passes; and the edit you are referring to was made not "less than four hours ago" but rather more than thirteen hours before I said that, as can clearly be seen here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Your !vote seems to be based on a misunderstanding. Could you please respond to my above ping? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Seriously, the closer's going to ignore your !vote if it is based on a misconception and you have been ignoring repeated pings requesting clarification. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I am not sure it is quite as black and white as is being presented, neither user has made real efforts to steer clear of the other (for example going to a user page to see what they are up to and then commenting on it is not steering clear). I would agree to a warning, but not a final one.Slatersteven (talk) 08:56, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Did you mean to post the above in a different section? This proposal has nothing to do with either of us steering clear of each other. I offered to do so as a condition to another user supporting this proposal, but your opposing because, several days ago, I wasn't already adhering to a voluntary self-restriction that I only offered to take on this morning ... doesn't make sense. Yeah, Lubbad and Softlavender (talk · contribs) gave similar seemingly irrelevant oppose rationales further up, but that doesn't justify your doing the same. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Really? we have already hashed this out in the hatted section, why did you move your comment out of the hated section? All your going to get is the same responses. Nothing has changed, so nothing new can be said.Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Did you mean to post the above in a different section? This proposal has nothing to do with either of us steering clear of each other. I offered to do so as a condition to another user supporting this proposal, but your opposing because, several days ago, I wasn't already adhering to a voluntary self-restriction that I only offered to take on this morning ... doesn't make sense. Yeah, Lubbad and Softlavender (talk · contribs) gave similar seemingly irrelevant oppose rationales further up, but that doesn't justify your doing the same. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
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- Neutral - Unfortunately, it appears that there is no such thing as a final warning in Wikipedia, because an editor who has been given a final warning will be given another final warning every few months. Maybe a four-day block with a final warning? Robert McClenon (talk) 12:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – I oppose this as written, for missing the mark. Chiefly, a final warning isn't merited when no previous warnings have been given. An "only warning" isn't merited here because the problematic behavior identified doesn't rise to the level. However, I would support closing this thread with the following warnings:
- a warning to Lubbad that future COPYVIO may result in sanctions (this is based on one identified instance of COPYVIO in the last four or five months)
- a warning to both editors not to WP:BLUDGEON discussions (Lubbad at AfDs, and both at ANIs; I'm taking this opportunity to plug the WP:PEPPER essay)
- a warning to Lubbad against starting ANI threads for matters that are not serious, chronic, or urgent, and where other forms of dispute resolution have not been tried first
- a warning to both editors that they should each avoid the other voluntarily, and future problems may result in a one-way or two-way IBAN – Levivich 01:38, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would support this.Slatersteven (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- By request in the threaded discussion section, I have made a new proposal subthread: #Proposal 6: Close with warnings. – Levivich 03:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would support this.Slatersteven (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as long as Hijiri88 agrees to voluntarily steer clear of Lubbad85. Despite their best intentions, Hijiri’s involvement with this user has created more problems than it’s solved, and I think we should thank them for their dedication and let them focus on other matters. Lubbad85 seems to me to really want to help the project, but should be advised that if they cannot do so constructively, civilly, and within policy, they will face further sanctions. —Rutebega (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 5: Two way IBAN
As you can see above, this conflict between the two editors is continuing in spite of many proposed remedies, none of which are getting support. Let's just get this IBAN on the books and get this over with!
- Support As proposer. ThunderChunder! | Talk to me! | Walk with me! 05:14, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note that the above new editor came along last week and proposed banning me from the site entirely. I would appreciate a one-way IBAN against Thunderchunder whereby he is immediately blocked if he ever comes anywhere near me again (and would also appreciate his user page, which consists almost exclusively of POLEMIC about me, being deleted). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Boomerang 5.6% of ThunderChunder's edits to Wikipedia (2 of 36) have been to try to ban or punish Hijiri88. 11 have been to ANI. Only 5 have been to actual article space. I don't know quite what's going on here, but this seems a crystal clear WP:NOTHERE to me. SportingFlyer T·C 07:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose and BOOMERANG. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:23, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
*Boomerang As I have said above this seems to be the fairest proposal. Both users have gone out of their way to look at what the other is doing, and comment on it. Oddly I am also leaning towards a boomerang as well, but I dislike one way IBANS. But this is the suggestion of the main thread. So not sure what the boomerang should be.Slatersteven (talk) 09:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Just to be absolutely clear in terms of the boomerang, I'm advocating for an indef for ThunderChunder on NOTHERE grounds. I'm incredibly skeptical of any user who shows up and jumps straight into the ANI deep end, and I'm incredibly skeptical of a user who has spent more time dedicated to banning another user than they have on helping the project as a whole. SportingFlyer T·C 19:47, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- I took it to be a boomerang of what they had proposed. No I would not support an indef, at least at this stage.Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- As such I change my vote to Oppose. I have no idea if they are not here.Slatersteven (talk) 08:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: The proposal that is being !voted on in this section is essentially the same one as the one you supported in your comment timestamped
12:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
: do you mean you oppose a boomerang for the editor who opened this section? If so, you should be more clear; and also maybe not oppose proposals on whose grounds you "have no idea". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)- As I said as I understand boomerangs they tend to be the user getting what they asked for (which would be an IBAN). This was clarified to say it was not for that, and so I opposed what it is for (and this was the first mention of an indef). I think there needs to be action over this, and have said what I think it should be, but I cannot say "support" when I do not support what the suggestion is, even if I think something needs to be done (i do not sign blank cheques). This is why I have said before we should not have unspecified sanction, it is all too easy to make assumptions about what they are for.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: The proposal that is being !voted on in this section is essentially the same one as the one you supported in your comment timestamped
- Oppose and support warning boomerang – I think an experienced editor should close this Proposal 5 subthread and place an explicit next-time-you-may-be-sanctioned warning on the editor's talk page. – Levivich 03:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose with a trout to the OP. ~Swarm~ {sting} 09:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Could someone please block TC? He left for four days, logged on to Wikipedia, checked my contribs from more than 24 hours (17 edits) earlier, and decided to leave a needlessly aggressive/kettley comment.[7][8][9] And of his previous 11 edits all 11 were about me,[10] along with 8 of the previous 20.[11] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 6: Close with warnings
Propose to close with the following warnings:
- a warning to both editors that they should each avoid the other voluntarily, and future problems may result in a one-way or two-way WP:IBAN
- a warning to both editors not to WP:BLUDGEON discussions
- a warning to Lubbad that future WP:COPYVIO may result in sanctions
- a warning to Lubbad against starting ANI threads for matters that are not serious, chronic, or urgent, and where other forms of dispute resolution have not been tried first
- Support as proposer, because:
- For #1, both editors have expressed a desire to avoid the other in the future, and I think this sort of de facto voluntary 2-way IBAN is preferable to a formal recorded sanction. If a problem develops in the future, conduct from this point forward can be examined at a future ANI thread and any necessary sanction (one-way or two-way) applied at that time.
- For #2, this is based on Lubbad's participation at AfDs ([12] [13]) and both editors' participation in these ANI threads.
- For #3, there were problems in January and earlier but it seems to have improved except for this is based on this May 28 copyvio (source). Lubbad has said in this ANI thread that it won't happen again. There has not been a recent formal warning, and I think one is merited in the circumstances.
- #4 is based on opening this thread in the first place; a poor decision, but not one that merits anything more than a warning IMO. – Levivich 03:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- W/r/t why #1 and #2 are directed at both editors, my concerns about Hijiri underlying #1 are the Article Rescue Squadron userbox, the "hypocritical" userbox, the four AfDs discussed earlier in this thread [14] [15] [16] [17], and the "troll" comment, resulting in this advice. My concerns underlying #2 are that at the last ANI thread, three users made comments advising against over-participation [18] [19] [20]. Those comments were not heeded in this ANI thread, as evidenced by the arguing with editors: [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] (partly retracted) [26] [27] [28] [29]. The advice in the previous ANI thread didn't take, maybe a more formal warning will. – Levivich 05:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- So ... you think Slatersteven has been bludgeoning this discussion and I've been responding to him too much? Yeah, I do too: why does your proposal sanction me and not the editor who originally did the bludgeoning? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:06, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I checked the "partly redacted" diff and assumed the diffs were all from my interaction with Slatersteven. They're not. I would encourage anyone considering listening to anything more Levivich has to say on this matter to click through the "evidence", and ask themselves how most of the diffs are me "arguing with editors": one of them is me presenting a proposal for a final warning, one of them is me posting on another editor's talk page asking for clarification of their comment ... do I need to go through the rest? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- W/r/t why #1 and #2 are directed at both editors, my concerns about Hijiri underlying #1 are the Article Rescue Squadron userbox, the "hypocritical" userbox, the four AfDs discussed earlier in this thread [14] [15] [16] [17], and the "troll" comment, resulting in this advice. My concerns underlying #2 are that at the last ANI thread, three users made comments advising against over-participation [18] [19] [20]. Those comments were not heeded in this ANI thread, as evidenced by the arguing with editors: [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] (partly retracted) [26] [27] [28] [29]. The advice in the previous ANI thread didn't take, maybe a more formal warning will. – Levivich 05:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- If someone makes a comment, apparently based on a good-faith misunderstanding, pinging them is standard procedure. Poor Erik, on the other hand, had already retracted his comment and said he wanted nothing more to do with this before Lubbad pinged him back, he reiterated that he wanted nothing to do with this, and then Starship pinged him again and he said he wanted nothing more to do with this again. Softlavender and I have a somewhat mixed history, but I've never known her to make a comment that completely missed the point of the discussion and got the timeline wrong, like the one she did above -- at least not without being willing to retract once her mistake was pointed out. I have no idea why she hasn't responded to my pings, but I'm sure there's good reason. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:57, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - based on the rationale of my previous votes above, and in light of the community's failure to agree to anything else proposed above, I have to support this even if they are weaker actions than I supported previously, because I strongly believe if this fails, no action will be taken at all. Both editors can improve their behaviour. starship.paint (talk) 03:18, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - this has been going on for far longer than it needed to. Let's get a close on the books and go from there. ThunderChunder! | Talk to me! | Walk with me! 03:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I agreed to avoid Lubbad voluntarily on condition that he be placed on notice regarding the rest of his disruption, which he has already been warned about several times in the past. I cannot agree to this proposal that explicitly doesn't do so regarding any of his personal attacks, harassment, "opposition research" (essentially hounding), etc. and instead chooses to punish me for having "bludgeoned" an ANI thread about me by posting X number of times, after having already waited a good nine hours until multiple other editors had already commented. Yes, it is my intention to avoid Lubbad going forward anyway, but only if I can safely assume his abuses will be subject to more scrutiny from the community than they have been, and this proposal is essentially a copy-paste of Levi's above opposition to said scrutiny. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose any action against Hijiri, who did nothing wrong besides deal with a problem user in the interest of the project. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:26, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: There is a difference between WP:HOUNDING and following editors one believes, in good faith, to be violating policy.[33] The former is done with the intent of harassment, not dissimilar to what Lubbad subjected me to by going back through my edit history of seven years when he wrote this string of lies, whereas the latter is not only permitted but encouraged by our editing policy: confusing the two is, at best, a gross misunderstanding of our harassment policy, and at worst a deliberate violation of the explicit wording thereof, and contrary to more than a decade of community consensus and statements by the Arbitration Committee. I have been assuming good faith thusfar because on your talkpage and in your responses to Proposal 4 you seemed amiable and rational, but the fact that you are still making statements like the above after numerous attempts by myself and others to explain the policy to you and the other relatively new users who seem to be thronging to this thread is making it hard to keep doing so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: - so when I agree with you, I'm amiable and rational, but when I don't 100% align with your views, you're starting to assume bad faith? From your relatively new user, starship.paint (talk) 11:31, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Where did you ever "100% align with my views"? I was referring to your prior acceptance that Lubbad's behaviour was disruptive and required oversight as amiable and reasonable, as opposed to your above personal attack accusing me of hounding. I don't need to "assume" bad faith: you are clearly either acting in bad faith, or are ignorant of Wikipedia policy and are choosing to ignore the explanations that have been provided to you out of ... what? Laziness? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:22, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: - so when I agree with you, I'm amiable and rational, but when I don't 100% align with your views, you're starting to assume bad faith? From your relatively new user, starship.paint (talk) 11:31, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: There is a difference between WP:HOUNDING and following editors one believes, in good faith, to be violating policy.[33] The former is done with the intent of harassment, not dissimilar to what Lubbad subjected me to by going back through my edit history of seven years when he wrote this string of lies, whereas the latter is not only permitted but encouraged by our editing policy: confusing the two is, at best, a gross misunderstanding of our harassment policy, and at worst a deliberate violation of the explicit wording thereof, and contrary to more than a decade of community consensus and statements by the Arbitration Committee. I have been assuming good faith thusfar because on your talkpage and in your responses to Proposal 4 you seemed amiable and rational, but the fact that you are still making statements like the above after numerous attempts by myself and others to explain the policy to you and the other relatively new users who seem to be thronging to this thread is making it hard to keep doing so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hijiri's WP:BLUDGEONing of the discussion itself has been disruptive, IMHO, and requires appropriate warnings. ThunderChunder! | Talk to me! | Walk with me! 03:35, 9 June 2019 (UTC) Case in pointThunderChunder! | Talk to me! | Walk with me! 03:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Slatersteven is more guilty of bludgeoning than I: I have been compelled, not dissimilar to other editors in recent disputes, to defend myself against groundless hounding and NPA accusations, while two sections up SS did the same in a discussion that didn't involve him, with the quite transparent motive of filibustering any proposal that didn't end in me being sanctioned, and baiting me into a long and pointless back-and-forth that could then be used as "evidence" that I was "bludgeoning the discussion". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- You did see that part where I said I would support a warning against Lubbard, but mentioned no other action? I came here to comment on the bizarre "I dont know what I want but I want it and I want it now" proposal (and until then I had not taken part, as I said before, maybe if this wasn't such a blatant such a blatant attempt to just get a user banned (for really a non bannable offense) it might have got somewhere a lot quicker. As to me being more guilty of bludgeoning, today alone I count 3 fresh posts from you (one SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ME, and another asking for a user to be blocked, in fact most of them commenting on other users actions). On the other hand I have made 2 (3 if you include this one, a reply to your accusations against me, and my first mention of you today).Slatersteven (talk) 09:05, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Slatersteven is more guilty of bludgeoning than I: I have been compelled, not dissimilar to other editors in recent disputes, to defend myself against groundless hounding and NPA accusations, while two sections up SS did the same in a discussion that didn't involve him, with the quite transparent motive of filibustering any proposal that didn't end in me being sanctioned, and baiting me into a long and pointless back-and-forth that could then be used as "evidence" that I was "bludgeoning the discussion". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: Might I suggest that it would be a good idea for you to spend a bit more time writing articles and less time posting on places like ANI and AE? You've been on the site for less than seven months, but 30% (the largest share) are to the Wikipedia namespace, with ANI alone accounting for 1/12 of your whole edit history. It would be one thing if your input demonstrated a precocious insight into Wikipedia policy, but it seems in both this thread and Tryptofish's ban appeal at AE that your commentary has been creating both heat and light.
- (And since I have had to explain this virtually every time I've offered advice like this in the past, I might as well point this out proactively: yes, I to have at various points in my Wikipedia career been a regular ANI contributor, but not until I'd been on the site for about 11 years, amassed well over 10,000 edits to my name, and reported a fair few editors to ANI myself, starting in my eighth year on the project and so already had a pretty good idea of how things worked.)
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:29, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Even if I had felt this way, I certainly wouldn't have made this comment had I been one of the subjects of an ANI thread. starship.paint (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Umm... it was largely influenced by comments from two admins (and former Arbs) at AE last week, and another comment by Grandpallama further up this thread, as well as another editor whom I won't name but with whom I was communicating off-wiki about the matter and who has been involved in this thread. It appears to be an opinion shared by virtually everyone who isn't willfully ignoring it due to their happening to agree with Levi on the substance (for whatever counter-policy reason might be). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:03, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Even if I had felt this way, I certainly wouldn't have made this comment had I been one of the subjects of an ANI thread. starship.paint (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support For all the reason I have said throughout this.Slatersteven (talk) 08:56, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral knowing that final warnings in Wikipedia are just more warnings that will be repeated as final warnings over and over again, and knowing that we will be back here and will provide another final warning. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:01, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as final warnings. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 16:59, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose If the users involved don't already know not to do these, they should be banned. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to warn either user for bludgeoning - a more specific warning would be to Lubbad85 to try not to canvass involved users. SportingFlyer T·C 19:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—the only warnings needed here are #3 & #4. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:43, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as utter nonsense, because the fact that Lubbad85 would receive multiple warnings (or warning for multiple issues) makes it so blindingly obvious they're the problematic editor. Not to mention, per Swarm, that following an editor is not the same as hounding an editor, and should not result in any sort of IBAN. This proposal is just the latest in a series of false equivalencies. Grandpallama (talk) 14:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose any action against Hijiri. Otherwise Neutral "knowing that final warnings in Wikipedia are just more warnings that will be repeated as final warnings over and over again, and knowing that we will be back here and will provide another final warning." But even pointless 'raps on the knuckles", should have some logic and Hijiri has nothing actionable. Pincrete (talk) 18:25, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose any action against Hijiri. I think Hijiri has been on the side of Wikipedia's best interests here, and that does not deserve to be punished. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Thread discussion
- I have no idea what kind of "ban" is being proposed. A limited block? An indefinite block? A community ban?--Bbb23 (talk) 18:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I wasn't clear. I meant a community-imposed site ban. But I am interested in any lesser type of restriction that will at least stop Lubbad85 from filing these stupid reports. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nor me. Could be any of those things, including a topic ban. Anyone? Black Kite (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It says boomerang ban. I don't know maybe ban from reporting to this ANI. Or for the copyright violations. I don't know what type of bans that a copyright violator deserve see this discussion user_talk:Hijiri88#Freinds.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- So you support it but you don't know what it is? -- Begoon 18:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I support a boomerang ban, I don't know how that sanction is imposed but I believe the ban should be applied because it is boomerang. It wouldn't matter what is the type of the sanction. Whether it is 72 hours or 24 hours or indeff etc that's something up to the admins.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Ok.
"the ban should be applied because it is boomerang"
, but you don't know what ban (or what one is, really) and"It wouldn't matter what is the type of the sanction"
. It's an opinion, I guess. Not one I understand, but an opinion, nevertheless. -- Begoon 18:45, 4 June 2019 (UTC) - "72 hours or 24 hours or indeff etc" are not bans - if you don't know what a ban is, you should not be supporting one. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:39, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well I thought that a 72 hours is a ban. So I am now puzzled. I think there should be a suitable sanction for all of these reports and the waste of time and copyright violations. Whatever that sanction is. I said 72 hours blocked. Maybe topic banned from this notice board. Or indeff block for copyright violation. In any case I support, just to stop this behaviour.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- 72 hours is a block, not a ban (or, at least, a 72 hour ban from something would be stupid). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Something something off with his head. 2001:4898:80E8:8:3A83:2DCD:7473:53F2 (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know what that means... Support. -- Begoon 18:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It means there's a quick race to block, any block, by SharabSalam. That is concerning. 2001:4898:80E8:A:C648:CDEE:794:B9B7 (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I do know what is WP:BOOMERANG but I don't know the sanction against it. I am not really familier with these policies. I supported when I saw WP:BOOMERANG ban.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- What is WP:BOOMERANG, as you understand it? And how are you specifically "applying" it here to reach a "ban but I don't know what ban (or what one is)" conclusion? -- Begoon 19:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- That an editor is making a report when it's him who should be reported and the sanction will turn against him. In my support vote I said the editor should be sanctioned for copyright violations and for constantly making reports against the same editor.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- You said.
"I do know what is WP:BOOMERANG but I don't know the sanction against it."
. That doesn't make any sense. WP:BOOMERANG isn't an offense, it's a description of a common outcome and a reminder that all behaviour will be considered - including a filer's, so how can there be a "sanction against it" (and what is "it") ? -- Begoon 19:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- You said.
- That an editor is making a report when it's him who should be reported and the sanction will turn against him. In my support vote I said the editor should be sanctioned for copyright violations and for constantly making reports against the same editor.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have changed the vote for better.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- You also said:
"I am not really familier with these policies"
. Given that, do you really think it is a good idea for you to be supporting sanctions on editors? I wonder if you might consider that easing off on your recent, heavy participation at these boards until you are familiar with policy would be a good idea? -- Begoon 19:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)- I made the vote with a good faith. I read what that policy says and I thought the editor deserve it. I just didn't know what is the suitable sanction. Anyway this discussion is time-sinking and it might make editors not see the survey. I am here to learn about these policies as stated in my userpage. I have been here when the editor made his first report, I saw all of what was happening between them. I knew that the editor who made the report should be sanctioned and then again another report today and again with completely baseless accusations.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- So "no"? Fair enough. Now, please go back to your vote and use strike-through to make it clear what the original comment was, and where you altered it, and never change comments that have been discussed or replied to. Thank you. -- Begoon 19:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for fixing the strike-through. Now, I really would be grateful if you'd consider the advice I gave above. There are a couple of reasons. One is that comments on this board have the potential to influence the ability of other editors to edit this site, so commenting here is a serious thing that requires knowledge and experience. When you comment from an ill-informed position it is detrimental to the fair and policy-based discussions and decisions that need to be made here. The second is that if you do this a lot it reflects badly on you, and this board is highly visible. I know you have the best of intentions, but the impression you make on others can be lasting, and it would be a shame if that was a poor impression. Sorry if you found any of this harsh - my genuine intention is to help you. -- Begoon 20:04, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I made the vote with a good faith. I read what that policy says and I thought the editor deserve it. I just didn't know what is the suitable sanction. Anyway this discussion is time-sinking and it might make editors not see the survey. I am here to learn about these policies as stated in my userpage. I have been here when the editor made his first report, I saw all of what was happening between them. I knew that the editor who made the report should be sanctioned and then again another report today and again with completely baseless accusations.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- You also said:
- What is WP:BOOMERANG, as you understand it? And how are you specifically "applying" it here to reach a "ban but I don't know what ban (or what one is)" conclusion? -- Begoon 19:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know what that means... Support. -- Begoon 18:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Ok.
- It says boomerang ban. I don't know maybe ban from reporting to this ANI. Or for the copyright violations. I don't know what type of bans that a copyright violator deserve see this discussion user_talk:Hijiri88#Freinds.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- SharabSalam, please listen to what Begoon is telling you, before you get yourself in trouble. The very fact that you're talking about "voting" shows you don't understand the purpose of ANI. We're neither an electorate nor a judiciary, and we don't do votes, we discuss whether people have violated policies and if so how that violation can be prevented in future. If you don't know the policy on which you're commenting, then by definition we don't care about your opinion on this board. That's certainly not to say that your opinion isn't valuable elsewhere, but ultimately this is the administrators' noticeboard, and uninformed commentary just disrupts us trying to do our job. ‑ Iridescent 20:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Alright, anyway, it's already the end of my fasting but I am interested in this particular case. Editors like Lubbad85 should probably get banned for this type of behaviour. Constantly reporting an editor and harassing them. I have sent to Hijiri wikilove for deleting reverting his copyvios. This is the only case I will be participating in.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I received this message on my talk page. I do not appreciate such a direct message from the subject of an AN/I thread and and feel that it is entirely inappropriate. - Nick Thorne talk 15:20, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Both users have been posting comments on users talk pages about this ANI. I am not sure either party is exactly whiter then Gabriels knickers here.Slatersteven (talk) 15:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I messaged you because you made an inaccurate statement above, which implied you had misunderstood the nature of the dispute, and then blanked your own message -- would you have preferred that I restored your message in order to respond to it? The circumstances of me messaging Erik are similar: he owned up to his mistake and struck his comment. That's about it on my end; Lubbad has been systematically messaging everyone.
- BTW, anyone considering taking Lubbad's requests for friendship seriously really needs to read up on what happened when he tried to pull the same thing on my talk page: I accepted, offered him friendly advice on how to be a better Wikipedian, he pretended to listen to my advice, and then two days later showed back up and started complaining that I hadn't stopped sweeping his edits for the copyvio he was still engaging in despite my advice.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:34, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mmm so you contact two users who had expressed doubts about your actions, in order to correct them. And Lubbad contacts everyone (regardless of what they said).Slatersteven (talk) 09:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Lubbad85 posted a star on my talk page as well, but not as specifically as on Nick Thorne's, though I don't consider the post on my own talk page inappropriate as I did go through to fix any copyright edits they had introduced, see [34]. However, the post along with the fact that Lubbad85 claims "I am not a copyright violator" on Nick Thorne's talk page extremely concerns me, as I looked through the articles they created and the vast majority of them had at least one potential copyright issue, along with some blatant copy-pastes which I fixed. SportingFlyer T·C 03:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Both users have been posting comments on users talk pages about this ANI. I am not sure either party is exactly whiter then Gabriels knickers here.Slatersteven (talk) 15:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I agree something needs to be done, but its clear that solo sanctions for lubbard is not going to swing it. The only thing I can see passing is the Two way IBAN, and continuing to try and find a way to sanction Lubbard alone is just dragging this out without getting anywhere. I think either this needs to be closed now as no action or the Two way is put in place, and we see where it goes from there.Slatersteven (talk) 09:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- I know the intent is good, Robert, but this sort of spamming proposals and seeing what will stick is not a productive means of resolving AN/I threads. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:44, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Reyk: It's my understanding that almost nothing ever "comes of" CCI. There's a CCI I filed over a year and a half ago still languishing in the "accepted, and open" section, and another I filed five months ago that's received no attention. The backlog is massive, and receiving hardly any of the attention it needs (I actually noticed a very serious problem once, and emailed the filer, expressing my concern that the filing might have retroactively become bad taste due to events that happened during the years it has been open). Basically what I'm saying is that it doesn't actually mean anything for this ANI thread one way or the other that the request I filed a little over a week ago is still open and awaiting attention. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Reyk: Before this was filed I looked through several of the user's major contributions, cleaned up some blatant copy-pastes, and rewrote sentences which had been copied and quoted with proper attribution. That being said, there's a huge backlog at CCI - how would one become a clerk? SportingFlyer T·C 16:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Reyk: It's my understanding that almost nothing ever "comes of" CCI. There's a CCI I filed over a year and a half ago still languishing in the "accepted, and open" section, and another I filed five months ago that's received no attention. The backlog is massive, and receiving hardly any of the attention it needs (I actually noticed a very serious problem once, and emailed the filer, expressing my concern that the filing might have retroactively become bad taste due to events that happened during the years it has been open). Basically what I'm saying is that it doesn't actually mean anything for this ANI thread one way or the other that the request I filed a little over a week ago is still open and awaiting attention. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
I now note that Lubbard is not on a wikibreak [[35]].Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: - can we get your proposal in a new subsection? I'd even call it the final proposal, because if that doesn't pass, I don't think anything else will. starship.paint (talk) 01:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Done I slightly re-ordered the list of warnings, and added my reasons for supporting the proposal. I agree with you about "the final proposal" but I just called it #Proposal 6: Close with warnings because I don't want to be presumptuous :-) – Levivich 03:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Levivich. I'm thinking of pinging everyone who has participated in this discussion so far, to get input. Would that be encouraged? starship.paint (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Starship.paint, honestly I have no idea and I wonder the same thing (is is encouraged?). I've seen people ping participants in these situations and it works out great, and I've also seen other instances where it turns into heated allegations of canvassing. I'd love to know what "the answer" is. – Levivich 03:31, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Levivich. I'm thinking of pinging everyone who has participated in this discussion so far, to get input. Would that be encouraged? starship.paint (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Bbb23, Robert McClenon, Black Kite, and SharabSalam: starship.paint (talk) 11:41, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Begoon, Boing! said Zebedee, Iridescent, and Nick Thorne: starship.paint (talk) 11:41, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Lubbad85, SportingFlyer, Reyk, and Kingerikthesecond: starship.paint (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Curly Turkey, Amakuru, Eliteplus, and Pincrete: starship.paint (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- @A lad insane, Grandpallama, Rockstone35, and Softlavender: starship.paint (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- God dammit I already said I didn't want to be a part of this. I'll continue to be neutral. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 11:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
- rubs eyes, yawns... You pinged? looks around... Oh, this, still? Good grief... tiptoes out hoping nobody noticed him come in... -- Begoon 19:52, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Hari147
- Hari147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user insists on not putting spaces after punctuation. Not just forgets sometimes, not is just unaware, but simply passively refuses to correct their behavior after being asked to recently here at ANI, back in 2016 by Anna Frodesiak, and who knows where else. I tried again here. They removed it without comment and just kept on doing what they've been doing. Some might think it a minor annoyance, and those of us concerned with such things are used to quietly fixing such things here and there, but it's just not reasonable for someone to effectively tell us to f*** off and expect us to follow them around and fix everything they write. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 05:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think these two edits encapsulate the 'refuses' thing. More worrisome is the recent plain vandalism [36] repeating [37] and problems elsewhere and here. Having been here since 2012 and thumbing their nose at simple conventions and now pranking us, hey, when does the low-grade fever finally exhaust the immune system? Shenme (talk) 06:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked 48 hours for disruptive editing. If this continues after the block expires I will block indefinitely — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I hace declined their unblock request as they say they do not understand the reason for the block.Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks MSGJ, Dlohcierekim, and Shenme. The silence you hear is the sound of a dozen gnomes resting a moment, anticipating a little less work for their arthritic fingers. I realize I didn't notify the editor about this discussion, for which I apologize (and thank Shenme for doing so). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 20:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hi there.I see there has been some ongoing talk about me. After an unneccessary block, i would like to apologise. I am actually not much fond of editing here (which i will learn more and make the edits as pleasurable they are to you as to me). I would further like to iterate that i will try to avoid those punctuation errors which i have done, and i would like to mention that these are not intentional in any ways. However, i do hope that when users with more administrative rights ban other users, they could provide more solid reasons to the ban, rather than linking references way back to 2016 like this one back in 2016. I would like to also mention that sometimes when incidents like this happens, often i assume that these edits are intentional when users often revert back to their idealistic versions of a wiki page, or a more non-constructive ones like this one here. I also like to mention that when Shenme mentions vandalism, it seems abit weird when this and this are mentioned. These seem to be unrelated to the topic, and also something which i have been just made aware of and will clarify that with the respective person. I would like to emphasize to the user to not make wavering accusations of vandalism. I have been an user who had made more than 500 edits i have no reason to see myself into an indefinite block. Hence i advise that these terms be acquitted henceforth. I hope that i have mentioned these as clear as possible, and also would like to request that users do not ban others without hearing both sides of the story. We are all here to learn from each other. I have so and i hope you do too. Thank you. --Hari147 (talk) 16:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive anti-China editing from Syopsis
- Previous AN/I report
- Related discussions
- RFC on restarting article from scratch due to subversion of NPOV
- Talk:China–United States trade war#Article concerns
- Warning given
- Special:Diff/900966515#Talk page guidelines
- Report
Let me preface this with saying that I was told I should stay away from the dramaboards, and since then I have followed that excellent advice for the most part. Also, most of this report refers to the bolded conversation linked above except when mention is made to the RFC.
This report comes about from an off-wiki conversation that occurred at WP:Discord. Viztor asked for some feedback on the situation and was advised to take it to AN/I. Instead of getting involved with that*, I made a few edits to the article. [38] [39]
*I later did though.Diff unavailible
Since then, most of my substantial edits besides one were removed. [40] It's hard to get a diff for this because of edits like this, though.
What was the one edit? A tag I put on the article citing my concerns with WP:GLOBAL. [41] [42]
Now, despite Nyttend saying there was significant undue weight
in the article at ANI, [43] an RFC being started on completely re-writing the article [44] with multiple editors agreeing in said RFC [45] [46] (Well, it's only 2/3), and my repeated explanations... Syopsis has insisted that the tag be removed. [47]
In the conversation that labeled "Article concerns" (which concerns the tag), this user has made personal attacks against editors, [48], doubling down on those attacks, [49] [50], WP:SHOUTING [51], and has even stated "I could give two flips if the tag was a drive by or if it was constructive.
"
This is on-top a general habit of ownership of the article in general. [52] [53] [54] [55] I have additional concerns about their WP:BOLD editing style which generally features an anti-China POV. [56] [57] [58] Even more concerning is their propensity to follow Viztor around to undo their edits. [59] [60] [61] or give them unneeded warnings [62] [63] (this second diff alerting them to an ANI thread that Viztor started! That might have to do with this edit, though?). On its own, these edits would be fine, but taken together I have to include a mention here.
I know I have lost patience at least more than once and have had my own fault in this mess. I tried resolving the dispute on my talk page, but as mentioned before Syopsis doubled down. I don't have any recommended action to take, but I would prefer to see a resolution into this matter. I really hate spending more time on this than I need to.
I don't watchlist ANI, so ping me when needed. Thank you all, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 05:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- His POV is another question, the more serious one is his behavior: (1)persistent blatant attacks at multiple other editors (2)hounding them around, (3)tracking and reverting their edits in a systematic manner, so to scare (4)the editors from contributing (5)in the attempt to own the article in question. None of which is an acceptable behavior in this community. Viztor (talk) 08:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'd also like to request help with Syopsis. I can't even tell you if I agree or disagree with their POV because the content issues we are trying to discuss are being obscured by Syopsis' personal attacks against other editors. For example after my very first post at Talk:China–United States trade war, [64], Syopsis responded with this — and keep in mind this is also our first interaction on Wikipedia [65]:
"It would be much better if you just stated the obvious, which is that you don't like the article because it doesn't fit your point-of-view/bias... it's mediocre, pseudo-intellectual dog whistling... just meaningless, wannabe editoirlizing [sic]"
- I thought I had only been recommending measures for article improvement, so I objected [66] to Syopsis' rude response, and they quickly came back with this [67]:
"let's not pretend that you are editing from a non-partisan position"
- Syopsis has been ever more rude to MJL, for instance supposedly repeating their concerns using a kind of pidgin spelling, mockery and insults [68]:
"I have to say the "biased coverage cuz it came frum dis country!" argument (I mean this generally, not yours particularly, because it's an argument that i've commonly seen) is as good as a dog's breakfast - it's bad reasoning... it just smacks of tryhard dog whistling... what you are doing seems like just another mediocre attempt at buck passing..."
- This is really distasteful and I hope something can be done to stop it. Wikipedia talk pages are supposed to be editorial boards: more or less professional environments. -Darouet (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since @MJL: was the one who filed this request I am going to respond to directly to that user and i am not going to bother wasting my (or anyone else's) time by responding to the borderline personal attacks by the other two users here; everything i have to say to Darouet i will say on the related talk page and I am not even going to address the comments Viztor made because it will just degenerate into a useless back and forth. But i will say at the outset I absolutely, 100% stand by the things that i wrote which that user quoted ("mediocre," "dog's breakfast" "pseudo-intellectual dog whistling") - they were attacking arguments. That is obvious to anybody who actually read the whole conversation...in full. They were not personal attacks because they were not even directed to a user. I've never made a derogatory personal comment since I started using Wikipedia and I will never make a derogatory personal comment so long as i use this encyclopedia. If that is what you call a "personal attack" then I would hate to see what an actual "personal attack" looks like. It certainly pales in comparison to some of the other things i have seen on wikipedia.
- "...their WP:BOLD editing style which generally features an anti-China POV. " Ah so there it is. Your point-of-view to attack "anti-China" (what ever that means) POVs or defend a "pro-China" (again, I have no idea what means) POV. Little wonder that the user contacted you for help on discord (which seems very much like a case of tag-team editing aka Wikipedia:Tag team. Why even bother editing the article in the first place?). yes if things were only that simplistic. Whatever. Of course the label is just nonsensical, there is for starters a difference between the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China, and there is a difference between attacking the views of a political party and attacking the culture of a particular place like some mindless idiot. No different than the difference that exists between, say, attacking a religion (christianity, Islam, judaism) and attacking its believers (Christians, Muslims, Jews). I have to say i do find it very curious you did not cite my most recent edits about Hong Kong here, here and here as evidence of my (non-existent) "anti-China" views - probably because you finally figured out the truth of what I just said.
- Please stop misrepresenting things. I didn't remove the material you edited, i rearranged them and I left the tag in there as a compromise gesture - hardly the kind of editing warring that you are trying to make my edits out to be. By the way, you and anybody else who is reading this should also be aware that the changes I made which included reverting your edits have stayed almost entirely in place - again, hardly the kind of editing warring that you are trying to make my edits out to be. I challenged you multiple times on the tag issue with the aim of actually resolving it and all I got from you were just mediocre, sub-standard arguments - that isn't a personal attack, that is just stating a fact. I asked you how the tag isn't a form of discrimination and all i got from you basically was "because it just isn't". And that is before we even get to your allegations of bias in the content. And about the RFC...that was before the people involved in it made massive changes to the article to rectify the bias and whatever else the RFC initiator complained about, which in any case it must be said was decisively rejected.
- Okay I will admit: I have to tone down the language. Going forward, i will do my best to refrain from using profaniies and just using general insults. I and like most of the people on the encyclopedia (including everybody involved in this request) are passionate about things, but at some point you have to draw a line and say enough is enough. Fair enough. As for the hounding accusation - that's not accurate. There was one edit that was hounding (the one about Xinjiang) but the one about the anchor was to revert a hound edit by the other user and then the third one is not even an example of hounding. That said, I apologize for that one edit and haven't done anything like that since.
- It's pretty simple. My position is that these are content disputes which should and can be resolved...between the two of us. If it helps, I am willing to shift the basis of my argument so that we now focus on the hard evidence that you have that the sources are "biased". This is a further compromise by me because I am downplaying the fact that it is wrong for you to discriminate the sources on the basis of nationality. Involving the two other editors is just going to drag this out way longer than it should and they aren't adding anything to the debate that we don't already know anyway. I don't know why you are trying your hardest to railroad this conversation and turn it into a conduct dispute when it isn't. Syopsis (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not only should you not curse, don't insult people at all, let alone in "general"! Argue over content, not editors, on talk pages. And in terms of POV, it /must/ be neutral. Overall though, from these edits I see serious attempts to WP:OWN the article, and little effort put into building consensus. Syopsis is clearly very difficult to work with. In terms of resolving the issue, I would support a carefully worded warning on conduct, or a post 1932-American politics T-ban. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: post-1932 politics t-ban seems a little much. Maybe a subset that has to do with US-Chinese relations, but I would not support such a broad topic ban for a relatively new editor.. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 01:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@Syopsis: response incoming.Let me start with what is good about you. I think you are genuine person who takes criticism better than most. I appreciate your contributions so far to this project, and I hope nothing that occurs as a result of this ANI report discourages you in anyway from being a part of this community.
That being said, your tone can be very off putting at times. As CaptainEek pointed out, you really shouldn't be insulting anyone nor anything. It's a bright line violation of our WP:civility guidelines. The sorts of language you tend to use has a negative effect on people.
In that regard, I must address the tag team allegation because that most certainly is something I aspire to never do on Wikipedia. I believe I have been, from the beginning, the most transparent I could possibly be with you in regards to any offwiki communications I have had with Viztor. As previously said, Viztor had general conduct concerns that were brought up on discord (which is fairly common among editors there). I personally took notice of the article (it covers a subject I care about- namely trade) and made the edits. I never even knew Viztor before this interaction, and they had no reason to believe I would get myself involved.
I said I had concerns about a bias on your part, and then I provided diffs to substantiate this claim. I did not review every single edit you made and only reviewed significant additions or subtractions to Chinese-related articles. Also, China in this case was shorthand for People's Republic of China (the government). Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Listen, I really, really, want to work constructively with you, but just take a look at some of the changes you made which concerns sourcing. [69] [70] That second diff was really bad in my opinion because you removed something cited by Reuters but left a statement that was cited to a tweet by Donald Trump. It's hard for me to make sense of that.
I appreciate your ability to own up in the places you know you were wrong. I also like your passion for the subjects you cover, but I don't like it when that gets in the way of the group's ability to cooperate with one another. We're all on the same team here. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not only should you not curse, don't insult people at all, let alone in "general"! Argue over content, not editors, on talk pages. And in terms of POV, it /must/ be neutral. Overall though, from these edits I see serious attempts to WP:OWN the article, and little effort put into building consensus. Syopsis is clearly very difficult to work with. In terms of resolving the issue, I would support a carefully worded warning on conduct, or a post 1932-American politics T-ban. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. This is not the first time concerns of his questionable behavior has raised, This editor responded in a similar way last time and stated it was just content dispute. When he said that what he is really saying is that we should neglect his conduct issue because this is just a content dispute, that is denial of problem for me. If he do not acknowledge his problem, this will just keep happening, until everyone just get too tired. This is not "the debate just got too heated and I lost control" kind of situation. He was literally throwing words at people who he just met, on first encounter, people who showed gestures to reconcile the difference. That is beyond content dispute that I have no plan to dive into, for that would just be exactly what he want.Viztor (talk) 23:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Syopsis, you cannot continue engaging with Wikipedia in this way. If this is, as you say, a content dispute, then you need to focus on the content and avoid commenting on other editors. Wikipedia is a collaborative editing environment and these types of remarks degrade the experience for everyone. I would not support a topic ban at this moment, given the lack of a prior formal warning, but going forward I would consider that an applicable remedy if Syopsis doesn't change their behavior. Mackensen (talk) 11:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Bumping thread for 7 days. To give admins time to review this.–MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 12:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC) In that case, can an admin formally warn Syopsis about conduct, and remind them that if the behavior continues they will find themselves escalatingly blocked? Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Community sanctions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As a humble editor, I have been blocked by Admin as part of a content dispute (Interaction Timeline). This seems to me a clearcut case of WP:Misuse of administrative tools. Step 1: I have raised the issue with User:Fayenatic london. Step 2: I have raised the issue with an "Independent admin" User talk:Mike Selinker#User:Fayenatic london with no joy. Trying to follow WP:DR, I mistakenly posted here when I now believe that I should have posted on this board and do so now.
WP:DR states "The community may also impose general sanctions (known as "Community sanctions") on all editors working in a particular area, usually after a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard." I know how much you guys love your boomerangs and it will be me hit with more sanctions but I really do think that Admin User:Fayenatic london's actions reflect badly on the office. I have informed User:Fayenatic london here JorgeLaArdilla (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Mike Selinker in that this is something that the two of you should be able to discuss and sort out without community intervention at this point. Sasquatch t|c 19:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Facilitated communication articles
I am here to dispute actions being made by User:Wikiman2718. This user is currently removing large portions of articles that contain quotes from non-speaking autistic people, as well as the biographies of non-speaking autistic people, on the premise that facilitated communication is discredited (including removing portions of Neurodiversity, Lucy Blackman, Sue Rubin, and removing nearly all of Benjamin Alexander (writer)). I have provided extensive evidence to the contrary, but regardless of one's position on FC, completely removing every reference to it and every person who has been purported to use it cannot be the appropriate action to take. Please assist in this matter. --Anomalapropos (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have not removed every reference to Facilitated communication: only those that fail to recognize that it is a psudoscience. I would appreciate administrative assistance in this matter. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Update: User has now removed nearly all of Amy Sequenzia. --Anomalapropos (talk) 17:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- That was uncalled for. We discuses in the article the counter claims about FC. There may well be arguments for a re-write, not wholesale deletion.Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Per NPOV, each claim must be given due weight. That means that scientific consensus is stated as fact while psudoscience is called out as psudoscience. Giving science a chance to make a counterclaim against psudoscience is a violation of NPOV. I deleted all information that implied or depended on the proposition that FC is science. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then you re-write, you do not just blanket delete (including removing the criticism of the procedure).Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is the "criticism of facilitated communication":
- According to skeptic Steven Novella, a professor at Yale University School of Medicine, Sequenzia's writings under FC are unusually eloquent for a nonverbal autistic individual. He additionally stated that there is no given explanation for how she spontaneously learned to read and write at an advanced level when she was eight years old. Novella also said that he would have to personally meet her understand better.[1] In response to this and other studies that found the facilitator and not the facilitated are doing the communication,[2] Sequenzia has said that critics of facilitated communication do not understand how a neurodivergent brain works or how their body responds to internal and external output; that organizations such as ASHA have a financial interest in people needing oral speech to communicate; and that skeptics don't meet FC users, care about the learning process, or acknowledge studies of authorship. She has labelled most of those critics as bigots who have fear and disdain for those they believe are intellectually disabled.[3][4][dubious ]
- This passage fails to communicate that the technique is psudoscience, and I don't see how it is salvageable. I don't see how any of the information I deleted could be useful in an article which reflects the psudoscientific nature of FC. For instance, it makes no sense to include quotes from a person who cannot communicate. If the article cannot be re-written, it may have to be deleted. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 18:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- You are making the claim that FC is pseudoscience based on incredibly tight goalposts. Again, I have provided [extensive evidence] that it is not. There are many, many qualitative studies confirming authorship that have been published in peer-reviewed journals. Now it has to be "medline indexed" in order to be reliable, apparently. I will wait for admin intervention. --Anomalapropos (talk) 18:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Could you please explain which bit of that "Extensive evidence" you link to is the bit we should read to show us that this is not pseudoscience? Thanks. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 18:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- All of it does. The idea that FC is pseudoscience is predicated on an antiquated version of what autism is (which is why that page includes research on autism being a neuro-motor condition and presumption of competence.) However, I did provide a specific journal article on the Amy Sequenzia Talk page when I was asked to provide something from within the last five years. (This one.) And I know that you saw it, because you responded. --Anomalapropos (talk) 19:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Was That when you carpet bombed us with a couple of pages chock full of refs? And that one has been superseded. Roxy, the dog. wooF 13:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I presented other evidence to the people I was debating, and it was ignored before that point in time (of which you were not a part of, so I'm not sure why you say "us"). Then I made a comprehensive list of my information because I wanted to show that there was a lot of evidence, not just a few articles that supported my view. You call it "carpet bombing." I call it being thorough. I then took a break for a while, because I was offended by your comment to "put in the work" as if I hadn't just spent hours debating people and then a good while formatting and arranging a list that would be easy to read, and then you just showed up and refused to look at any of it.
- Then you did the same thing when you glanced at the article I posted, apparently misread the date on it, and responded condescendingly, ("What part of 'in the last five years' don't you understand?"), which I thought was completely uncalled for. I have not mentioned that to this point, but I will now, because I don't know who you are or why you're being so dismissive of me.
- The issue is complicated, but you're all pretending it's cut-and-dry, as if human competence isn't complex and our understanding of it isn't ever-evolving. These are human beings. I'm not pretending that FC is never used incorrectly, because it is, and people who have used it to build motor control and have gone on to type independently (which is the actual end goal of FC) have talked about the potential for ethical violations. Removing FC as learning method entirely isn't the answer, though, because some people need physical support to start. Regulation of the profession is the answer. However, we can't regulate the profession if this idea of it being pseudoscience keeps persisting.
- To those outside of the debate, it might look like I'm some nut who was falsely convinced by the "ideomotor phenomenon" or whatever and is now trying to break science by including falsities on Wikipedia. I'm not. I'm only saying that there's enough evidence of FC that you can't, in good conscience, act like everything that was ever produced via FC should be discarded entirely. (I haven't touched the facilitated communication article because I'm not ready for that mess yet, but it does not present a comprehensive understanding of FC and the history of its research. Even the first line saying that it is also known as "hand-over-hand" is wrong; there are dozens of versions of facilitating and only one of them is hand-over-hand.)
- Anyway, I disagree that the article provided has been "superseded." I think there is no way to win this debate due to the other side's shifting goalposts. First, it's "well, there's no evidence," then it's "too much information," then it's "well, it has to be in a peer-reviewed journal", then it's "well, there's no review", and now it's "oh, it has to be medline indexed." My point is that removing large swathes of information on living people because you refuse to acknowledge qualitative studies on the efficacy of their communication method due to whatever your arbitrary rules are on what is or isn't considered proof of authorship is, I think, inappropriate. Thus the request for admin intervention. --Anomalapropos (talk) 14:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- We defer to Wikipedia's guidelines on medical referencing. Qualitative case studies hold no status against reviews published in reputable journals, and neither do editorials. It is common and encouraged for review articles to omit low quality sources from their analysis. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- And I would suggest that someone's method of communication not be held to the same standards as those governing the provision of medical advice.
- [Addition: To provide an example, to say, "Amy Sequenzia said these words [using FC]" is not the same thing as saying "FC is appropriate and successful for every single non-speaking autistic person." Unless you have a particular reliable source that says that Amy Sequenzia *specifically* could not have possibly communicated using FC because of whatever reason, I don't think that referring to a literature review that ignores qualitative evidence of FC being used effectively is a good enough reason to discount everything that could have been communicated via FC and excluding it from Wikipedia articles. And repeat this argument for every other specific person who uses it.] --Anomalapropos (talk) 22:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- The general does prove the specific. There is no need to debunk the same pseudoscientific claim each time it is made. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 04:39, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- We defer to Wikipedia's guidelines on medical referencing. Qualitative case studies hold no status against reviews published in reputable journals, and neither do editorials. It is common and encouraged for review articles to omit low quality sources from their analysis. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Was That when you carpet bombed us with a couple of pages chock full of refs? And that one has been superseded. Roxy, the dog. wooF 13:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- All of it does. The idea that FC is pseudoscience is predicated on an antiquated version of what autism is (which is why that page includes research on autism being a neuro-motor condition and presumption of competence.) However, I did provide a specific journal article on the Amy Sequenzia Talk page when I was asked to provide something from within the last five years. (This one.) And I know that you saw it, because you responded. --Anomalapropos (talk) 19:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Could you please explain which bit of that "Extensive evidence" you link to is the bit we should read to show us that this is not pseudoscience? Thanks. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 18:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- You are making the claim that FC is pseudoscience based on incredibly tight goalposts. Again, I have provided [extensive evidence] that it is not. There are many, many qualitative studies confirming authorship that have been published in peer-reviewed journals. Now it has to be "medline indexed" in order to be reliable, apparently. I will wait for admin intervention. --Anomalapropos (talk) 18:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is the "criticism of facilitated communication":
- Then you re-write, you do not just blanket delete (including removing the criticism of the procedure).Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Per NPOV, each claim must be given due weight. That means that scientific consensus is stated as fact while psudoscience is called out as psudoscience. Giving science a chance to make a counterclaim against psudoscience is a violation of NPOV. I deleted all information that implied or depended on the proposition that FC is science. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- That was uncalled for. We discuses in the article the counter claims about FC. There may well be arguments for a re-write, not wholesale deletion.Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Update: User has now removed nearly all of Amy Sequenzia. --Anomalapropos (talk) 17:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
For the convenience of the administrators, here is a list of pages related to this discussion.
- Autism rights movement
- Amy Sequenzia
- Lucy Blackman
- Sue Rubin
- Benjamin Alexander (writer)
- Neurodiversity
There are also other pages about facilitated communication and it's users, but I have only listed those pages that are in dispute. The other pages for the most part seem to reflect the psudoscientific nature of FC. This 2014 literature review[5] concludes "Results indicated unequivocal evidence for facilitator control: messages generated through FC are authored by the facilitators rather than the individuals with disabilities. Hence, FC is a technique that has no validity." I do not believe that any reputable source exists to challenge it. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 18:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Only documents with quantitative experimental data were analyzed for authorship." So this review ignores every qualitative study that has proven efficacy, and we're using that as the sole determiner for whether FC is pseudoscientific or not? Quantitative data isn't the only reliable source, particularly when you're trying to evaluate competence. Just because someone gets an "F" on a test doesn't mean they don't know the material. There are a lot of factors involved. --Anomalapropos (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- We defer to Wikipedia's guidelines on medical referencing. Qualitative case studies hold no status against reviews published in reputable journals, and neither do editorials. It is common and encouraged for review articles to omit low quality sources from their analysis. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wikiman2718, you've also been deleting material from Autism rights movement. Please add it to your list of pages related to the discussion above. CatPath (talk) 00:08, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Done --Wikiman2718 (talk) 05:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Unless one can play the speech synthesizer like Hawking, it is extremely doubtful that FC would be effective. If the goal of FC is to teach people play it, then I agree that it is a worthy cause. Otherwise the S from CUDOS prevails. And, yes, always citing high-quality sources prevents Wikipedia from turning into a PR venue. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:40, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Extremely doubtful that it would be effective by whose measure? How is it that applying your objective measure of someone's competence, without being inside of their head, determines whether or not they are capable of doing something? And how are you able to apply your measure to every single person who might use FC? What diagnoses do each of these people have? What is their measured IQ? What about the participants in whom the quantitative studies of FC were conducted? Do we know all of their symptoms? There are people who now type independently who got to that point by using FC to start. So I can already tell you you're wrong.
- I'm not arguing that a psychic claiming that their words come from dead loved ones be presented as a fact on an online encyclopedia. I'm saying that unless you can objectively determine that an individual person is incapable of ever using FC to convey their thoughts, then you cannot be removing what they claim are their words on the basis that you think they can't use it.
- One of these articles was about someone who attended college and became a writer. There are hundreds of people who have seen this person every single day and interact with them. And for a random Wikipedia editor to remove the entire article on the basis that they decided that it couldn't possibly have happened and that nothing in that article can be presented as fact... even though they presumably have never met this person, know nothing about who they are, what their story is, what their symptoms are, and whether or not they are capable of using a letter board or a keyboard to convey their thoughts, based on, what, a diagnosis of a condition that has an incredibly wide expression of symptoms? And then that person can just point to numbers as their proof?
- This isn't medical advice, and it shouldn't be held to the standard of it. It's people talking about their own lives. --Anomalapropos (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- In the end science is about what can be measured. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Measurements without context are meaningless. Science is not always right. --Anomalapropos (talk) 02:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It seems that you have just agreed that science is not on your side. And for qualitative evidence, the courts have consistently found that facilitated communication is not a valid communication technique. See List of abuse allegations made via facilitated communication. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nice try, but you've definitely misinterpreted what I said. When I say "science is not always right," I'm saying that the science you are relying on is wrong. (In particular, I'm saying that their interpretation of the results is based on an objective measurement of competence and that our understanding of competence, particularly in autistic people, is very different now than it was in the 90s. Also, the data shows that FC was unable to be validated in double blind controlled studies. It doesn't show that FC is never effective ever. And we know that it can be because, again, there are people who type independently now who once used FC. But these people are very inconvenient to your argument, so instead of addressing them, you just pretend I haven't mentioned them at all! And then you make up arbitrary rules for what further specific proof needs to be done first before you could accept that anyone at all could possibly need someone to brace their shoulder in order to be able to type something!
- I'm not saying science is not on my side, because it is. I'm not the one denying science here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts to make up excuses to ignore very obvious evidence of its effectiveness. I can see that it is not effective in some cases. I can see that there is evidence of facilitator influence on occasion. Yes, that's definitely a problem. However, I can also see that there is clear evidence that it does work for some people. The thing is, this argument starts with the premise that I'm some kook ignoring science, but I'm not. You're looking at biased past interpretations of people's levels of competence, and you're using them to make generalizations of other people's levels of competence. Like I said, without even knowing the people involved, the argument you're making is that scientists who measured competence and, with their own inherent biases, interpreted the results are a more reliable source than literally anyone in that person's life.
- Criticizing a method is not admitting that science isn't in my side. --Anomalapropos (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- There's always one. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 22:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Y'all just keep eloquently proving my point. --Anomalapropos (talk) 18:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- There's always one. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 22:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It seems that you have just agreed that science is not on your side. And for qualitative evidence, the courts have consistently found that facilitated communication is not a valid communication technique. See List of abuse allegations made via facilitated communication. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Measurements without context are meaningless. Science is not always right. --Anomalapropos (talk) 02:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- In the end science is about what can be measured. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Unless one can play the speech synthesizer like Hawking, it is extremely doubtful that FC would be effective. If the goal of FC is to teach people play it, then I agree that it is a worthy cause. Otherwise the S from CUDOS prevails. And, yes, always citing high-quality sources prevents Wikipedia from turning into a PR venue. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:40, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Done --Wikiman2718 (talk) 05:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wikiman2718, you've also been deleting material from Autism rights movement. Please add it to your list of pages related to the discussion above. CatPath (talk) 00:08, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- We defer to Wikipedia's guidelines on medical referencing. Qualitative case studies hold no status against reviews published in reputable journals, and neither do editorials. It is common and encouraged for review articles to omit low quality sources from their analysis. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Doing my daily bored ANI browse, but this appears to be a giant content dispute - not sure there's anything for ANI to really do here. SportingFlyer T·C 00:13, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: Is there any way you could transfer this discussion to the proper place? Thank you. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Wikiman2718: I'm not sure what the best place for the discussion would be, possibly the autism wikiproject? SportingFlyer T·C 04:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: I'm new here, so I'm not entirely sure how these sort of disputes work. The dispute has to do with autism, pseudoscience, medicine, and the biographies of living people. It's ok if you're not sure where to put it. I'm sure someone will come along who can move this to where it needs to be. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Wikiman2718: I'm not sure what the best place for the discussion would be, possibly the autism wikiproject? SportingFlyer T·C 04:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: Is there any way you could transfer this discussion to the proper place? Thank you. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- What he is saying is this is a content dispute, and thus should be talked about over at the articles talk page. This is for reporting disruption, and that is all you should be talking about, users conduct.Slatersteven (talk) 09:11, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- For archives, adding recent related noticeboard discussions:
—PaleoNeonate – 07:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- In light of these archived discussions, I think this dispute should be moved to the medicine noticeboards. The wikipedians there will be properly equipped to evaluate the evidence at hand. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 08:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. This is not a case of medicine. This is a case of a user unwilling to accept what is right in front of them. Whether you think facilitated communication can work or not, there are users who have technically graduated college and have diplomas in their names. There are users who have their names on published poetry and books. And there are users who now type independently. Whether you like it or not, these are incontrovertible facts that do not need to be established by a doctor. You can argue to the moon and back about this, but you can't be removing facts from Wikipedia just because the implications of it are contrary to a human interpretation of scientific data. That is why I brought this here. Your actions are entirely unreasonable in the grand scheme of things. --Anomalapropos (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I am referring to edits such as these (but not limited to these): 1, 2, 3, and especially 4. I've had this debate about content before, but no one else was making edits like these, and that's still what I'm disputing here. --Anomalapropos (talk) 20:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- A consensus that FC is psudoscience would means that all statements which imply that such people can communicate would have to be removed. FC users are not activists and they are not authors; they are disabled people who are being taken advantage of. The pages of all FC users will have to be re-written to reflect this. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 20:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The review you linked did not conclude that "FC is pseudoscience." That phrase is meaningless because "facilitated communication" could potentially mean half a dozen different techniques. Further, it clearly does work, because there are people who are now at a level of competence that is widely accepted to be a valid method of communication (i.e., being able to independently type on a keyboard, i.e., like I myself am doing right now) who have used this widely-considered-valid method to confirm that FC helped them to get to the point they are at now. --Anomalapropos (talk) 01:56, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- The review addresses FC in general. A number of older reviews find the same, but we prefer to cite the most recent literature. FC was considered debunked in the 90s. There are claims of FC users learning to type independently, but much like FC itself, no such claim has ever been verified scientifically (or even by a reliable source). The mainstream media that reports on FC without acknowledging it's pseudoscientific status is not reliable. It is normal to find such media on issues of pseudoscience. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- The review you linked did not conclude that "FC is pseudoscience." That phrase is meaningless because "facilitated communication" could potentially mean half a dozen different techniques. Further, it clearly does work, because there are people who are now at a level of competence that is widely accepted to be a valid method of communication (i.e., being able to independently type on a keyboard, i.e., like I myself am doing right now) who have used this widely-considered-valid method to confirm that FC helped them to get to the point they are at now. --Anomalapropos (talk) 01:56, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- A consensus that FC is psudoscience would means that all statements which imply that such people can communicate would have to be removed. FC users are not activists and they are not authors; they are disabled people who are being taken advantage of. The pages of all FC users will have to be re-written to reflect this. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 20:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. This is not a case of medicine. This is a case of a user unwilling to accept what is right in front of them. Whether you think facilitated communication can work or not, there are users who have technically graduated college and have diplomas in their names. There are users who have their names on published poetry and books. And there are users who now type independently. Whether you like it or not, these are incontrovertible facts that do not need to be established by a doctor. You can argue to the moon and back about this, but you can't be removing facts from Wikipedia just because the implications of it are contrary to a human interpretation of scientific data. That is why I brought this here. Your actions are entirely unreasonable in the grand scheme of things. --Anomalapropos (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- In light of these archived discussions, I think this dispute should be moved to the medicine noticeboards. The wikipedians there will be properly equipped to evaluate the evidence at hand. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 08:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Novella, Steven (8 November 2012). "Facilitated Communication Persists Despite Scientific Criticism". NeuroLogica Blog. Retrieved 2 March 2019.
- ^ Vyse, Stuart (7 August 2018). "Autism Wars: Science Strikes Back". Skeptical Inquirer. Retrieved 17 May 2019.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Bigots
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Sequenzia, Amy. "My Right to Communicate Does Not Depend On Your Bigotry". Autistic Women & Nonbinary Network (AWN). Retrieved 16 May 2019.
- ^ Schlosser, Ralf W.; Balandin, Susan; Hemsley, Bronwyn; Iacono, Teresa; Probst, Paul; von Tetzchner, Stephen (December 2014). "Facilitated communication and authorship: a systematic review". Augmentative and Alternative Communication (Baltimore, Md.: 1985). 30 (4): 359–368. doi:10.3109/07434618.2014.971490. ISSN 1477-3848. PMID 25384895. Retrieved 11 June 2019.
User:Marvin 2009
User:Marvin 2009's history shows that he's a single purpose account pushing a pro-FLG narrative on the highly contentious Falun Gong articles, which are under an arbitration case. He has engaged in soapboxing on the talk pages [71][72][73][74][75] where he attempts to discredit sources critical of FLG. He was also involved with edit warring, with User:Unicornblood2018 (now banned) [76] who he called a CCP apologist, and previously, he received several warnings for his disruptive editing [77], and was blocked for 48 hours for violating 3RR. In light of this I think a topic ban may be in order--PatCheng (talk) 18:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
None of the diffs you linked to seem to show problematic editing on the article itself- and the archive of his talk page only shows me that you and him have had past disagreements, going back 3 years. While verbose talk page walls of text are unpleasant, this strikes me as a dispute over sourcing and content, which ANI usually doesn't get involved in. Furthermore, his last edit to the Falun Gong article was around 2 months ago. I'm not sure this situation warrants a T-ban. Non-admin comment by:Rivselis (talk) 18:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC) CU-blocked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciated User Rivselis's fair comments to User PatCheng. However, sock puppet account is not allowed on Wikipedia. Please use a legitimate account instead.
- I paid attention to human rights topics. In the beginning I edited the article Zhang Jianhong (a poet who died of CCP's human rights abuse). FG topic is human rights related and I did some research in the area, so it became one focus. But I did edit other pages as well, refrigeration is one example. In my sand box, i started to work on a new page. I am going to work on many other areas as well.
- As I notice the reason that human rights related pages often were not following WP:5P2 and showed poor quality, was mainly because there were some users who always promoted Pro-CCP narrative while disregarding Wikipedia policies. Sometimes I discussed with users on Talk Page. User PatCheng's contribution history showed the user was heavily involved in pro-CCP narrative in FG topic, such as Epochtimes. His complain against me here seems not to follow WP:COI?
- As the link provide by PatCheng showed, I did not call the named user CCP apologist. Marvin 2009 (talk) 12:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Marvin, I have not edited WP for years, and I am not an employee of any agency, so WP:COI can be more apt describing your edit patterns, which shows a distinctly similar pattern to User:Asdfg12345 and User:HappyInGeneral who are both topic banned from FLG articles per WP:FLG-A and have left WP as a result. Furthermore, a check on your edit history shows that the majority of your edits revolves around FLG related articles, with refrigeration at the very bottom, and have also spent quite a time sparring with User:STSC.--PatCheng (talk) 02:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- PatCheng: I asked whether your complain against me here seems not to follow WP:COI. Your answer regarding you "not edited WP for years" is not relevant. Your editing history included many evidence that led to my question on COI. Here let me only name a few.
- Your heavy pro-CCP bias plus your attack against CCP critics without using a reliable source If you can read the Reporters Without Boarders report China’s Pursuit of A New World Media Order, you will find out that the CCP critics you hated so much were not wrong.
- you framed one user's comment as vandal comment and removed it twice But many reliable source (one example - Report Cites Concerns About China's Influence On American Institutions) shows the comment you removed is a basic fact - CCP did infiltrate the world. In recent years, quite a few Chinese oversea engineers have been sentenced for spying on behalf communist party. May I know Why you attacked the user who discussed about CCP's oversea spy operation and removed his posts on talk page? Both you attack and your removal of his posts were against Wikipedia policy.
- you used CCP's cult label to attack and praised CCP's brutal crackdown. CCP's brutal human rights abuse was well documented. Please check a recent media report: Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps Your views and behavior on Wikipedia are against the freedom of belief and the freedom of expression, those pillars of modern civilization.
- PatCheng: I asked whether your complain against me here seems not to follow WP:COI. Your answer regarding you "not edited WP for years" is not relevant. Your editing history included many evidence that led to my question on COI. Here let me only name a few.
- okay, yes, refrigeration is at the bottom of my top edited page list. As i said i cared about human rights, you can see the page 2008 Sichuan Earthquake and the page Zhang Jianghong are at No. 4 and No.6 of the list. I am not a FG single purpose user as you claimed.
- I have no ideas on the two IDs you talked about. If you check users contributed to most FG related pages, you can see, over the years, many IDs who edited those pages were blocked. Those IDs showed similar editing pattern as yours: adding CCP propaganda content defying WP:OR or WP:RS, arguing with users who preferred any reliable sources that did not follow CCP party line. Those pro-CCP users were banned because of disregarding multiple Wikipedia policies. The blocked IDs on an arbitration case showed the similar editing pattern as I just discussed as well. You asked another user on his talk page for CU of me. Ironically, it seems that you are a user that needs to be CU. In my opinion, Wikipedia welcomes everybody, Pro-CCP user like you, pro-human rights user like me included. But everyone has to follow editing policies. I did feel sometimes my reply on Talk page were a bit long and unnecessary. I will try to improve in this area. BTW you had long/unnessary discussions as well, here is an example.
Marvin 2009 (talk) 13:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive user, WP:NOTHERE
The majority of edits of a new user account (Sparkle1) registered on 8 June 2019 have been to revert edits or additions made by me to articles. When warned about breaching 3RR, the person responded in bad faith, and went on to revert more of my edits (of things such as timelines, which are widely accepted practice across Wikipedia). I have no intention of starting an edit war with the user in question, so would appreciate advice about how this can be quickly resolved. The behaviour, and use of terminology such as OR suggest this isn't a new user per se, but rather a sock of an existing user here.
--RaviC (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
This is a simple content dispute and RaviC simply dislikes the content the have added being removed or even challenged. The better place for this is the relevant talk page. The user also appears to be a bit of a pedant as they have not assumed good faith by waving around silly warnings on talk pages and running here as opposed to being constructive and engaging on talk pages for articles. Here is not the place for content disputes. I would also like to point out that simply pouting out issues as opposed to running around throwing warning and running here applies under WP:boomerang to the person making this absurd report where there should be talking in much more constructive places. There is nothing here. This is a waste of the time of everyone involved. I would also like to say talking about socks and alike neglects that I have been an IP user for a while before creating an account. The bad faith from this report stinks to high heaven. Sparkle1 (talk) 23:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've asked you to follow the procedures of WP:BRD multiple times and you don't seem to have started one discussion. When the admins review the diffs, they will clearly be able to see where the bad faith stems from. --RaviC (talk) 00:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- But this is not a simple content dispute. You are edit warring across multiple articles while making no use of talk pages, on top of having a generally insufferable attitude. You are going to need to rapidly improve the way you communicate with people, and learn how to use dispute resolution, or you're going to have a bad time. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It also seems like the user in question is precariously close to violating 3RR in a dispute with SportingFlyer on the 2019 Polish parliamentary election article. --RaviC (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- RaviC is displaying dangerously close amounts of WP:ownership over this very specific section of information. There has been a grotesque overreaction here and a lot of hostility and tension shown towards another editor who has dared to challenge this information being on this encyclopedia. Sparkle1 (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Someguy1221. Sparkle1, the edit warring across multiple articles, as well as your conduct, are not acceptable. Why such incvility? If you know and understand Wikipedia's dispute resolution protocol as you imply that you do in your comment above, then you should've started those discussions peacefully and pinged RaviC to them so that he could respond. Why didn't you? Please, both of you, no more edit warring... :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:49, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It also seems like the user in question is precariously close to violating 3RR in a dispute with SportingFlyer on the 2019 Polish parliamentary election article. --RaviC (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
The same applies to RaviC here. Instead of running around with warnings how about opening a talk on a user page. RaviC here is the one with the insufferable and appealing attitude and I take great affront to the ridiculous comments made regarding that. RaviC should be told to open discussions with users as opposed to simply placing warnings and running to places like this. It is not collegiate and it is not collaborative. A user who has given a sensible explanation and has acted constructively is Impru20 [78]. They gave an actual rationale instead of going completely defensive which RaviC has done. RaviC should talk a leaf out of Impru20's playbook. Sparkle1 (talk) 00:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is not a great defense, saying that you will engage in revert wars unless the other user explains something to your personal satisfaction. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am not asking for that but I simply find it hard to bear the bare faced gall of complaining about someone else not starting a discussion when RaviC won't or hasn't opened any constructive discussion. Where was the Hello on my talk page. Non existent. Instead I get hostility with a warning and then this. I find RaviC to have acted very portly and I do not see why i should not point that out. RaviC should have simply started a simple discussion on my talk page. RaviC has demonstrated they know where my talk page is but they are more interested in process with warnings and here, than extending a friendly hello and a chat. RaviC has been very hostile. I think this is all overblown, out of proportion and silly. As such please lets talk on my talk page if there is something constructive to talk about as this is just politics. Sparkle1 (talk) 00:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sparkle1 - If you were bothered by the warnings and notes left on your user talk page, why didn't you open those talk page discussions, peacefully express your concerns, and try to discuss the issues with RaviC in a civil and respectful manner? Why do the warnings he left excuse you from the need to try and follow Wikipedia's dispute resolution protocol? If the warnings were mistakes or felt to be in bad taste, you should've done the right thing by peacefully starting a discussion and saying so. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one person is (seemingly) assuming bad faith when they shouldn't be, doesn't mean that you get to throw Wikipedia's policies and guidelines out the window and do what you please in response... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Note: it seems that the user in question has decided to ignore the messages here. From their conduct in multiple articles today against Vabadus91, it seems that they have learned little to nothing about dispute resolution procedure here. I would like to restore content to the pages where content was arbitrarily removed; could an admin give me their insight into how I should go about this? --RaviC (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Edit war over twitter storm
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am edit warring over the inclusion of a notice toward twitter regarding
- WP:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram
- WT:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram at section Wikipedia talk:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram#Women in Red project accusing Wikipedians of "REAL CRIMES"
and
- the associated project, not named yet.
I think it is beyond the scope of this site and the related page. I am accused of having an agenda. I expect to be chastised for diffs, I get them. cygnis insignis 23:13, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- the tweet reply I saw when I got there was "...Aaaand this tweet has been mentioned on enwiki.. [Insert coming storm here]" cygnis insignis 23:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Obviously the project you're looking to notify is WP:WiR, after all it's their Twitter account. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- "I am edit warring". Well yes you are. Please self-report to WP:EWN. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:14, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- I notified The Rambling Man here cygnis insignis 23:17, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- There's really not an "edit war", more a "censorship" thing going on. Certainly I made an enquiry over an agenda. I just didn't understand why the external discussion of a Wikipedian including legal accusations in the context of WP:FRAM needed to be either redacted entirely or moved to a talk page. Whatev's. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Cygnis insignis: Please stop. Even if you think the tweet shouldn't be linked or discussed, the strategy you are employing is counterproductive. Abecedare (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Abecedare: Thanks, but I have stopped. That is why I brought it here, if someone agrees that should have been suppressed as potentially provocative, they could have acted. The damage is done, it is advertised. cygnis insignis 23:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- So let me get this straight... You're reporting yourself for edit warring. What do you recommend then? A block? Or just a warning? — Amakuru (talk) 23:30, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Cygnis insignis: - In a serious vein, could you explain how external discussion of Fram's ban could be considered not relevant to the page on Fram's ban? There's never been anything that said our discussion must refuse to even mention external viewpoints. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:31, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- In a serious vein, no, my comment would be dripping with sarcasm. cygnis insignis 23:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
I've informed Women in Red about this thread, as it does rather concern them. DuncanHill (talk) 23:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Anyone going to remove the offending item … cygnis insignis 23:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Is it reasonable to call this the project's twitter account? It has the same name as the project. And it seems likely that the people who run it are project members. But I don't think it is the case that all project members have access to the twitter account. And investigation of who on Wikipedia is associated with off-Wikipedia pseudonymous accounts is generally severely discouraged, per WP:OUTING. So I don't think it's appropriate to be complaining about what that twitter account might do in a way that suggests that all project members are responsible for its tweets. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
As a notification, I have filed a statement regarding the tweets at the ArbCom case regarding the Fram incident. starship.paint (talk) 05:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
New user with spurious "blocks"
Could an admin please have a quick look at the new editor Moral Value who appears to be issuing "blocks" which are not? Thanks. 82.39.96.55 (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Drmies. Best wishes 82.39.96.55 (talk) 01:08, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Backlog at ANI RPP
Not huge, but another pair or even quartet of hands would be useful (should this be here or AN?) Doug Weller talk 08:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Do you really mean ANI (which is this very board) or smth else?--Ymblanter (talk) 08:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: Damn. RPP. 5, but I always think RPP needs fairly quick responses. Doug Weller talk 11:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Ivan Gundulić
Please block the user "Mm.srb" for a constant change of the page and write the falsehood about the Croatian poet Ivan Gundulić.Thanks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gunduli%C4%87 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.143.35 (talk) 09:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Editing conflicts are not decided by edot-warring and calling an opponent "vandal". They are decided by participation in talk page discussions and finding consensus. To help you to understand the point, I protected the page from editing for two weeks and reverted it to the pre-war state.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for closing the editing page, but why did you leave the editing version that was not correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.143.35 (talk) 09:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is not my role to discuss what is correct and what is not. My role is to push you and your opponent to look for consensus. Since you were changing IPs constantly and were blindly reverting your opponent calling his edits "vandalism", whereas they took the trouble to point you out to the talk page, this is the only way to push you going to the talk page. If, after the protection expires, I will see these edits continuing, I will start applying blocks.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the answer, but I have nothing to argue with him about his lies, everything is written in the article about who is Ivan Gundulić .Ragusa is an Italian name for the city of Dubrovnik, there is no nationality of Ragusian that does not exist as you left it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.143.35 (talk) 10:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, with a liar, there is nothing to discuss, let it continue to lie,I will not open and read lies on that page anymore.There is no justice here.Goodbye — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.143.35 (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, he is Croat and Croatian poet, you have to correct the page not to write Serbian propaganda and something that is not, here and proof https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-Gundulic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.71.107 (talk) 13:19, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
28 November/Rotherham cleanup needed
A few weeks ago I reported a couple of IPs to AIV for repeatedly adding unsourced birth dates and birth places to articles, often choosing 28 November for the date, and Rotherham for the place. The affected articles are now on my watchlist, so I've discovered Specialwood (talk · contribs) doing the same thing. Exploring the history of some of the affected articles, I've found 31.49.25.29 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 31.51.95.79 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 84.92.218.161 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) doing the same. The editing pattern goes back to 2012 at least. So please will someone block Specialwood; and if anyone would like to help uncover and fix the damage I'd be grateful. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Ineedtostopforgetting and disruptive editing
Ineedtostopforgetting (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Could somebody please have a look at the edits by this user? They were recently brought to my attention when they developed an interest to articles on Kuril Islands (which is part of Russia internationally recognized by every country except for Japan) and started renaming articles to Japanese names (example) and removing Russian names example). They did this in a dozen of articles. In the discussion of my talk page, User talk:Ymblanter#New editor's suspicious edits at Kuril Islands-related articles, they said that they do not see any problems with their edits and they do not understand why I reverted all of them, even after I provided a detailed explanation, however, they stopped doing these edits, and I decided to let it go. Today, I noticed that they were engaged in edit-warring with Calton on a completely unrelated topic. For example, here (second revert) they claim they add sourced info and removed unsourced info, whereas the situation is exactly opposite - the architect's name is in the article and is sourced, the contractor name is nowhere else in the article. If you look at the user's contribution, you see that this is not a isolated case. I would have blocked, but I consider myself involved due to the previous exchange a week ago. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
I literally just added the source minutes before you made this. How about you take a look before making another baseless accusation? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, I forgot to mention that the behavior demonstrated here and elsewhere is another ground for the block, along with edit-warring and disruptive editing.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:54, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- So you're just going to conveniently ignore what I said about me adding the source BEFORE you made this section. Okay then. You're the one with the 'authority' after all. Are you going to block me for saying this now? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The elephant in the room is that you removed sourced information from the article and edit-warred over iots removal. Repeatedly, in several articles.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- And you actually edit-warred as a response tio a warning for removal of information. If anyone needs more diffs, I can lay out more diffs, but they are pretty obvious from the user contribution.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you're still harping over the Kuril Islands articles, the sources there did have the Japanese translations for these islands, and I was merely reflecting it. You accused me of 'edit warring' for that, and I decided not to bother anymore as you're just going to revert it back again. Now, you're making this section over an unrelated article without looking at all the facts, and decided to accuse me again for 'removing sources', despite the fact that the source to the architect's name links to an unrelated dead page (check the source for yourself) that does not even show his name. You said you couldn't find the contractors name 'nowhere else in the article', despite there being a source for it. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I just came here as I saw Ineedtostopforgetting's edits on Roppongi Hills Tower, something on my watchlist. I had just reverted their edit on that article as the source doesn't support the claim. All the source shows is that the company claims they worked on it. No supporting evidence in the source, primary source so not reliable, and the source doesn't even claim they were the main contractor only that they worked on it. They may have just designed the hinges for some doors for all the evidence the source provides. So I reverted it as not a suitable source. Canterbury Tail talk 11:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- If that's how is going to be, what about the source for the architect? Are you telling me that is a suitable source? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 11:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reference was already in article, so I've just added the link to that field. Canterbury Tail talk 12:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- If that's how is going to be, what about the source for the architect? Are you telling me that is a suitable source? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 11:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I just came here as I saw Ineedtostopforgetting's edits on Roppongi Hills Tower, something on my watchlist. I had just reverted their edit on that article as the source doesn't support the claim. All the source shows is that the company claims they worked on it. No supporting evidence in the source, primary source so not reliable, and the source doesn't even claim they were the main contractor only that they worked on it. They may have just designed the hinges for some doors for all the evidence the source provides. So I reverted it as not a suitable source. Canterbury Tail talk 11:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is unfortunately that you continue misrepresenting facts even though everybody can check the diffs. Japanese names were in these articles already years ago. You just removed Russian names and moved articles to Japanese names. This is pure disruption, not even part of these edits was in any way useful. If you do not understand this, you must be blocked per WP:CIR. If you do, you should be blocked for disruptive editing.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:22, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Definitely some problematic edits — I just clicked the contribs at random and got this. Sorry, Ineedtostopforgetting, that does not inspire confidence and, if it's representative of your edits overall, isn't tenable. El_C 10:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I thought it seemed pretty obvious that the Navy of a sovereign country would have it's allegiance towards its head of state, and this is shown for other countries such as China, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. If so, what is the point of 'allegiance' in the military unit infobox then? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 10:47, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Communist Party of China is not the PRC's head of state. Anyway, this was explained to you here. El_C 10:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, and I let that matter rest and did not revert it back. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 10:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The point is that you are too quick to revert, even if you let the matter rest eventually. This sometimes reaches heights of absurdity (example). El_C 11:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you're going to block users for being 'too quick to revert', a majority of users on Wikipedia would be blocked. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You have been warned multiple times before for disruptive editing and edit-warring, so it is about time for you. Other users can wait.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:21, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You know what, no matter how hard I try to defend myself, you're obviously still not going to change your opinion or judgement. It just ain't worth all the time and effort. If you wish to block me so badly, just get on with it already. It's not like there's anything I could do anyways. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 11:31, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You have been warned multiple times before for disruptive editing and edit-warring, so it is about time for you. Other users can wait.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:21, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you're going to block users for being 'too quick to revert', a majority of users on Wikipedia would be blocked. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The point is that you are too quick to revert, even if you let the matter rest eventually. This sometimes reaches heights of absurdity (example). El_C 11:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, and I let that matter rest and did not revert it back. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 10:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Communist Party of China is not the PRC's head of state. Anyway, this was explained to you here. El_C 10:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Looking at the edits, I don't believe Ineedtostopforgetting is being deliberately disruptive. I think there is some learning to go, and some experience to gain. Their habit of adding non-native names as native names in some articles needs to stop, but I don't believe that's a blocking offence unless they deliberately continue it. Their edits appear well intentioned. Maybe a mentor instead of an admonishment? Canterbury Tail talk 12:42, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Ymblanter, The user that you're defending, Calton, is currently edit warring, reverting my constructive edits and accusing me of removing 'material' despite the fact that if you compared the revisions, I was adding more information (with sources). What exactly have I done wrong here? Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I suggest people take a look at this user’s talk page history. They have been warned numerous times (once by me) for things like removal of content, edit warring, and POV. Their response is to immediately archive the warning - usually without comment, although this edit summary stands out and kind of reinforces the attitude you see in their comments here. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, MelanieN, I've only been warned once, which is from you, and not 'numerous times' like you falsely stated. The rest were general notes. Also, I made my first archive on 20th March, after my talk page was created on the 21st January, 2 months prior. That is not 'immediately'. I then archived again on 5th June, a day after your warning. That is again not 'immediately'. Furthermore, is archiving supposed to be an issue here now? I think we have had enough allegations on this section as it is. Ineedtostopforgetting (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have given Ineedtostopforgetting a 31 hour block for disruptive editing, including lying about the warnings on their talk page. If the disruption continues, the next block will be longer. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Let's make some decisions, shall we? --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 18:52, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Proposal 1: Temporary ban/block per WP:CIR and/or WP:DISRUPTIVE
- Support, accused user is blatantly lying about "only being warned once" when their talk page history disapproves that theory. Multiple warnings have been issued, but to no avail. I feel like a temporary block is thus necessary right now. However, the ban should not be permanent as the accused user currently has a clean block log, and such edits would probably not warrant an instant indefinite block. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 18:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 2: Let the accused user go with a final stern warning
- Oppose, for reasons stated in my reply to proposal 1. Maybe place the accused user under some surveillance after their possible future block expires? --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 18:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Proposal 3: Place the accused user under some form of surveillance so this would hopefully not happen again
- Support, and this would be even better if both proposal 1 and 3 are carried out simultaneously. Placing them under some form of surveillance would hopefully hinder any other bad edits, and it could make the accused user more competent. This could, in the end, lead to very good edits being made by the accused user. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 19:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Need admin warning
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Karthikhar24 is keen on adding copyvio content, removing deletion tag, recreating deleted files and creating non-English pages. --AntanO 11:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Refbombing
- Bishunpur-Jaunpur (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Spallahabad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The article Bishunpur-Jaunpur is ... remarkable. It seems to be the work of User:Spallahabad, an unfamiliar name to me. I went to their talk page and was surprised to see more (old) messages from me than from anyone else. I don't want to give the user the impression that I'm hounding them, I don't seem to have been successful communicating with them in the past, it's near my bed time, and ... perhaps I'm just a bit lazy. Could somebody else take a look, and, if appropriate, brandish the mop? (Who knows, perhaps I sleepily misunderstand, this user should be praised for diligence in referencing, and the mop should be brandished at me.) -- Hoary (talk) 12:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Seems like a reasonable request. Probably an 'objective' admin. should look into it. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
(NSFW) A user's unusual behavior
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Crossdresser Chrissy has been uploading images of himself cross-dressing to Commons. Not only that, he is adding those images to articles about cross-dressing, including his own user page, in a manner unsuitable for Wikipedia. A list of his contributions can be seen here.
I don't know about you all, but I find this user's behavior to be gross and disturbing. So much, in fact, that I've temporarily came back to editing again just to write this. He has not been warned about this so far. I don't know if site policy has a protocol for this kind of activity, but I doubt that it's okay. I've therefore drawn attention about this to all of you admins, in case you aren't aware of it already. ᴀɴᴏɴʏᴍᴜᴤᴤ ᴜᴤᴇʀ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 15:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Anonymuss User - These actions, if exclusively being done to Commons and not the English Wikipedia, would need to be reported (and any necessary administrative actions taken) there. There wouldn't be anything we can do about it here. Aside from that point, Commons has... a lot of images uploaded there that one would find explicit, such as pictures of one's own genitalia, and other such images. I'm not expert on content policies on Commons, but I would imagine that the images that are being uploaded aren't in violation of any policies there. That being said, it won't hurt anything if you check and ask about it on Commons, though. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:19, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, it's not "gross" (and probably not disturbing for most) but it's certainly a violation of WP:NOTWEBHOST, and I see that another admin has deleted it. Black Kite (talk) 15:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You just posted a "currently engaged in an edit war" template on the talk page of a user that last edited article space four weeks ago? --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:19, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Charles01 behaviour
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I'm at a breaking point with Charles01. Since January he has been formally bashing about me for the past few months. He constantly making callous remarks of my editing even though I kept asking him to help me of how to edit collaboratively on around 2-3 occasions which are included in the diffs but comes out nothing but more condescending comments and antagonising. He tend to call my editing "Vauxford Vanity Project" and create made up phrases such as "Vauxfordy". Almost every edit he does he would at least include something personal about me. Diffs of cases where he has taken his edits personally over a user rather then on the content: Slipping in personal comments of me e.g "Then again, where a picture taken and uploaded and linked by the one and only Vauxford is involved" [79] Another revert which mostly include grievance towards me rather the a practical reason why he reverted my edit [80] More personal comments and remarks within his comments about me, including accusation that I god rid of a editor from the project even though that was never my intention. Described my personality as "narcissistic and arrogant" [81] Respond after I told him that it isn't a "personal vanity project" [82] The personal revert and warning template I put in his talkpage [83] [84] His reply to the template message [85] Reply after I told him again that it isn't a personal vanity project [86] Audi A2 reverts including more conscending mention about my "vanity project" and using the word "Vauxfordy" as something negative [87] [88] Another RfC he created which include a number of personal remarks in his sentence about me [89] One of his RfC edit that include many of his personal grief against me [90] [91] I do want to come forward that I did called Charles01 "a bully", at the time, I was simply fed up and upset with the brash and condescending commentary he leaves when something to do with me but at the same time I ask and plead many times for him to tell me how to be collaborative which he doesn't, most of the time when I do leave a message on his talkpage asking this, he just dumps everything (including the warning template that I left because I found his revert summary about the Audi Q3 unacceptable) I said onto my talkpage even though it was all addressed to him. [92] [93] [94] The Audi Q3 discussion I find unfair and Charles01 wanted my picture gone because it was taken by me. Despite the fact Alexander-93 who made the talk page discussion does the EXACT same type of editing as I do, yet he does get scruntised and made to feel degraded about themselves as Charles01 and other people does to me. Hence why I reverted the edit even after a "consensus" was reached Just to clarify, this wasn't me edit warring or even slow edit warring, at the time I thought the action was justified but after thinking over it a bit more, I felt the purpose was more then a disagreement over a photo replacement. I even added a alterntive photo to try and see if they agree on that because I really disagreed with the picture was being used for that article, but was simply ignored, shortly followed Charles01 added his unheartfelt message which consisted 20% of why the other photo should be used and 80% saying how How I "constantly create edit wars", how my photos are "mediocre", what I'm doing is just a "personal vanity project", saying I am "damaging Wikipedia" and simply saying how much a disruptive person I am and any photo I proposed on these articles should get voided, simply because they were by me. I'm not innocent myself and I did messed up a few times but even after trying to improve my way of editing and seeking consensus with people rather then straight out reverting if someone disagree with my edit. It almost feels like Charles01 is simply talking me down with a chance that I would break down and possibly quit Wikipedia or something even though what I'm doing isn't disruptive and even if it was disruptive I had no awareness it is and formally apologise for it. I'm also not doing this to oust Charles01 in any way, I just believe the way he has been treating and approaching me like this is wrong and no editor whatever position they have on Wikipedia should go through that. --Vauxford (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
It was archived as udea, and I am not sure that you deciding it should not be archived is a good idea.Slatersteven (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
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Re-opening this because he has been archived the 2nd time now since nothing has been done about this. Charles01 has reverted my edit after I replaced a picture that wasn't even discussed, it might of been in the talkpage discussion but it was simply ignored, YET again calling it my "personal vanity project". I'm going to blow a fuse if he going to accuse me of that one more time. Please something be done about this, I really think the talkpage discussion on the Audi Q3 wasn't justified (see Extended content for the original post I did). I tried talking to him, solving it on the talkpage discussion, but now he simply reverting anything I do because he calls it a "personal vanity project". I'm at a dead end here and doing anything else would just become disruptive. Please can this be look at that, I know I can a handful but still this has been going on for half a year now and I don't know what else to do. --Vauxford (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a bit much; but you do also suffer from a conflict of interest when it comes to adding your own work. Best to try to argue for its inclusion on the article talk page rather than inserting it yourself. El_C 21:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I did discuss this on the article talk page, I added a alternative image but it was never discussed except for some opinion about the wing mirrors. I thought because it hasn't been discussed I could use that instead of the one which a consensus have been reached, but even the consensus I find unfair because 80% of the reason for why they choose the grey one over the blue was mostly personal rather then actually talking about the picture. --Vauxford (talk) 21:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Try to change the consensus by getting wider input, taking advantage of your dispute resolution resources. El_C 21:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. That, indeed, depends on the depth and breadth of your dispute. El_C 00:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- The pictures-of-cars topic area is rapidly supplanting pro wrestling as the universe's #1 source of lame controversy. EEng 01:25, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Issue with a sock puppet
Hello, I've been having a issue over the last few days with a sock puppet, user 88.147.36.93. He is known as MySuperBelt85 who been consistently been vandalising my talk page and as well as CityOfSliver's talk page. In 2017, MySuperBelt85 was consistently vandalising the article Mafia III by removing sourced information, he been blocked multiple times but every time he quickly returns with a new sock account (a new account he created or another IP address). Mafia III has been protected multiple times but he will resume vandalising the page as soon the page becomes unprotected, the page has been protected for nearly two years and he been quite since until this last month where he has been vandalising my and CityOfSliver's talk page stating that he will continue to vandalise the Mafia III article as soon the page become unprotected in November. I'm hoping that an admin can do something to stop his vandalism, Thanks. TheDeviantPro (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked for 1 week. Materialscientist (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Ongoing feud with U1Quattro
U1Quattro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
This user is not only reverting my edits at whim, he now begun to vandalise every article that I edited.
Enzo 3R: Special:Diff/901991464 Special:Diff/902027129 Special:Diff/902033825 (Me adding this content: Special:Diff/889119454)
F50 3R: Special:Diff/901990874 Special:Diff/902027079 Special:Diff/902033792 (Me adding this content: Special:Diff/889119404)
MC12 3R: Special:Diff/901992160 Special:Diff/902027172 Special:Diff/902033875 (Me adding this content: Special:Diff/883958808)
His reason: "They need not to be mentioned. This is an informative article, not a technical guide in which technical codes are written. "
And so he claims wikipedia for his own and deletes every code I added, just because He says so:
Special:Diff/902034549
Special:Diff/902034568
Special:Diff/902034590
Special:Diff/902034633
Special:Diff/902034665
Special:Diff/902034734
Special:Diff/902034779
Special:Diff/902034800
Special:Diff/902034826
Special:Diff/902034855
Special:Diff/902034882
Special:Diff/902034960
Special:Diff/902034977
Special:Diff/902035011
Special:Diff/902035032
Is this a person who seeks consensus? Is this a person who honours other people's work? Please do something about it. Do not let him bludgeon another thread. More proofs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1011#Unacceptable_behaviour_by_Ybsone
YBSOne (talk) 02:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) For those who managed to miss the wall of text from the last time these two users came here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1011#Unacceptable_behaviour_by_Ybsone. It's clear that these two users are not capable of civil interaction, and at least one IBAN will probably be necessary here. creffett (talk) 02:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Out of 8 references on FXX page He decided to "fix" only mine: Special:Diff/901228740 Special:Diff/901624330 Bias.
- Out of 8 references on FXX page He decided to "fix" only mine: Special:Diff/901228740 Special:Diff/901624330 Bias.
Administration has failed to punish him and now his behaviour is unbearable
YBSOne (talk) 03:04, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Chassis codes don't form part of an informative article. There is a reason why articles on other cars from other manufacturers do not mention them. It is clear that the user does not understand the purpose of why the article is there and continues to add information which might not be understandable to the general public. The user as also been involved in breaking the IBAN imposed as a result of a previous ANI discussion. Moreover, words like these "can you not read with comprehension?" and "Don't delete edits you know nothing about!" suggest that this user is implying the impression of "owning" the articles while failing to reach a civil consesous on a talk page discussion.U1 quattro TALK 03:09, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- You are a hypocrite and manipulator. The reason You deleted this content was and I quote: "Ferrari F50 That is the engine type."
- "Enzo Ferrari (automobile) This is the engine code name. "
- " Maserati MC12 Added short description. Removed content without source. "
- It had nothing to do with being "too technical" but with Your pitiful lack of automotive knowledge. You have mistaken a chassis code for an engine code not knowing that on some Ferraris the codes are the same. And twhen I have educated You You have changed Your offensive strategy to "oh, it's too confusing..." YBSOne (talk) 03:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- You are a hypocrite and manipulator. The reason You deleted this content was and I quote: "Ferrari F50 That is the engine type."
- Special:Diff/902039332 As this is going on he is still reverting my edits. Replacing a primary source with a secondary one. Can administration see he is out of control?! YBSOne (talk) 03:26, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- You need to read WP:RS. A fact needs to be verified by third party sources. About the codes. Yes the engine codes are same. The engine type used in the F50 is F130 while you added "Type 130" the same is for the Enzo Ferrari. These edits are confusing to the general public. Your recent frustration on this thread also indicates that you fail to understand that this site is not a court of law where people are punished for disagreement. As far as I see it, you're trying to force your way here.U1 quattro TALK 03:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) Admins: Given that both editors have an IBAN already (missed that part) and they have both violated their IBAN (YBSOne has reverted U1Quattro's edits as "VANDALISM," U1Quattro has reverted at least one of YBSOne's edits within the past day), I recommend short-term blocks for both, plus closer eyes on both of them to enforce the IBAN since clearly they . Please. Before this gets out of hand again. (Before either of you say it: it's completely irrelevant which one of you violated the IBAN first. Saying "but he started it!" just makes you look like a couple of five-year-olds) creffett (talk) 03:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- We don't hane an IBANS actually, it was "given" by a user and he closed the thread and it was reopened. As I understand he did not have any competence to do either. YBSOne (talk) 03:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- We actually do. An admin agreed with it.U1 quattro TALK 03:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
READ: " @Sable232: Reopening this thread. Please read WP:INVOLVED, you should never close a sanction discussion where you yourself participated. Apart from the very obvious fact that there is no consensus for any sanctions here, in which case only administrators are in the capacity to impose sanctions, in case of discretionary sanctions and conditional unblocks (classified as an unilateral sanction, different from a community sanction as being discussed here). --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)"
Enough. We are not going through this again. I am imposing a binding 2-way Interaction ban on you both, with great prejudice. Please stay away from and do not comment on one another from now on. El_C 03:39, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Apparently, there was no consensus for an IBAN in that previous report (not enough users participated), and since I now realize that I'm unable to impose such a ban unilaterally, I'm reopening this report. Let the sniping continue, I guess. Unless both users agree to an IBAN, in which case, we're fine once again. El_C 12:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Stuff me wit green apples, enough, IBAN for god sake.Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Two-way IBAN
I propose that both of the users be indefinitely banned from interacting with each other. Exact wording below:
U1Quattro and Ybsone are indefinitely banned from interacting with each other, subject to the usual exceptions as stated in WP:BANEX. This ban is only appealable to the community after a period of one year at the earliest, and every 6 months thereafter.
With thanks. Editors participating may be interested in reading prior discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1011#Unacceptable_behaviour_by_Ybsone. --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Pinging all past participants
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@Floquenbeam, Eeng, Vauxford, HandThatFeeds, Sable232, Slatersteven, A lad insane, RandomGnome, and Rosguill: --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC) @Oshwah, Nyttend, EEng, and WaltCip: --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:46, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
- Support FFS, either IBAN or nuke from orbit, since neither one seems to be willing to drop the stick, even after posting massive wall-of-text screeds here that have repeatedly drawn very little external interest because of them turning into massive extensions of the existing squabble that tends to discourage people from wanting to respond. rdfox 76 (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I am against. I didn't seek administrative sanctions against U1Quattro to "give myself an interaction ban". I can refrain, which I do, from interacting with this user. I don't delete his edits out of spite or lack of understending of the subject. My edits were reverted by him at least 45 times over past months. Out of spite alone. By brushing yet another of his outbursts under the rug You are all responsible for him being out of control. Mark my words. YBSOne (talk) 14:04, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Quoting WP:IBAN:
A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption.
You both need to understand that this action is borne out of desperation and not because we feel like it. --qedk (t 桜 c) 14:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Quoting WP:IBAN:
- you are at 3RR as well, and some of the content you added appears to be unsourced. Thus it is down to you to provide a source (not edit war without adding one). Did you try add a source or discuss this at the talk pages?Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- It was not only sourced but I also took it to the talk page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ferrari_F50#Tipo_130:_both_chassis_AND_engine YBSOne (talk) 14:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Proof of source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F50#cite_ref-ferrari.com_11-0 YBSOne (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Why can't You understand that I will never win with him. I add a simple fact, he reverts it and demands a source. I provide a source, he reverts it claiming it is confusing. I add it again, he reverts it claiming it is not needed here, etc... YBSOne (talk) 14:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well this should sum it up Special:Diff/902081574, take care, I'm fed up with this. YBSOne (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support I am tired of the wasted time wading through their endless arguments. I see no signs that they will learn to interact peacefully. - Donald Albury 14:06, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support They are not going to tolerate each others edits so this is overall a net drain.Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Support per my earlier comment - it's abundantly clear that these two cannot have a meaningful civil interaction, and for the sake of my sanity I would prefer that we get this over with quickly so as to keep their feud from spilling onto AN/I again. creffett (talk) 14:12, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per nom Schazjmd Talk 14:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy says Don't bite the newcomers, but this newcomer has been biting me! He deletes my posts on his talk page and adds questionable information to articles. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 03:13, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Response
- I’m so sorry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zbgradina (talk • contribs) 03:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mvcg66b3r, please be aware that Zbgradina has every right to delete your messages from their talk page. The assumption is that they read and understood your messages. You asked them twice if they were from the Bowling Green area. You do not have the right to ask intrusive questions about another editor's personal information. That is creepy and unacceptable. Respect their privacy and focus on improving the encylopedia. As for the "questionable information", please provide diffs. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm bringing this back up again now the thread above has run its course and has been closed as a train wreck. Two of the proposals in that thread were created by Thunderchunder (talk · contribs), a user who has only 56 global edits on the project: [95] and [96]. I commented on the proposal here after reviewing Thunderchunder's contributions to the project and suggesting the user was not here [97]. I'm bringing this back up specifically because I checked to see what this user had done since I called them out for their odd editing patterns, and since then, they've gotten another user blocked indefinitely, have made a grand total of one arguably constructive edit, and have created a special userbox celebrating the number of WP:NOTHERE "allegations" against them. As I previously noted, I have absolutely no idea what's going on with the editing pattern here, but I have serious concerns about a user who has a relatively high percentage of their posts dedicated to indefinitely blocking other users (at least 2 of 56, by my count), and very few posts actually improving the encyclopaedia. SportingFlyer T·C 08:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am not sure what is up with them. I would (at this stage) support a warning. I cannot help but wonder if he is a puppet of some kind, if so a ban would be in order.Slatersteven (talk) 09:04, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- If the community is not part of the encyclopedia, then I'll accept the warning to focus more on articles. ThunderChunder! | Talk to me! | Walk with me! 09:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Ban. Obviously a returned banned editor. One doesn't mention "lede" in their first edit. [98] One does not post edit war warnings to other editors within their first ten edits. [99] One does not head to ANI quoting BOOMERANG and DUCK in their first fifteen edits. [100]. This wasn't a good try. starship.paint (talk) 10:02, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's a pretty bold conclusion to say
"Obviously a returned banned editor."
unless you're also going to say which one. Why not a WP:CLEANSTART? Sure, the pattern might seem suspicious, and disruptive is as disruptive does, and WP:CLEANSTARTs are supposed to avoid old conflicts, but still, if you don't know which old conflict this is... You can support a ban just based on behaviour regardless. -- Begoon 11:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC)- Tip for anyone who's trying to CLEANSTART - ensure you make more than 10 edits to article space per year. No, I don't know which banned editor this is, and I don't particularly care. starship.paint (talk) 11:13, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is why I am only really supporting a warning for now. There may be a number of reasons why this user may know so much about us (hell I believe there are even websites that tell you how to edit the project). I really would like to see a bit more evidence then a gut feeling.Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Warning, could be a WP:CLEANSTART, like Begoon said. If the CheckUser is clean, then there is no need for a block. Maybe if Thunderchunder would kindly disclose his former accounts if need be. Would recommended they enrol in the adopt-a-user system in order to get better at editing. The Duke of NonsenseWhat do you request fellow editor? 14:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)