→User Galassi at Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry: Removed unsubstantiated personal attack from either an IP troll with no edit history, or a sock IP of an editor who logged out in order to post a personal attack. |
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*My attempting to keep the whitewashing down was a major time sink. Especially since many of the refs are in Korean, Japanese, and other foreign languages. I finally gave up. The article needs to be protected from outright whitewashing in some way. {{ut|Sam Sailor}}'s revert to a pre-whitewash state is a good start. [[User:Jim1138|Jim1138]] ([[User talk:Jim1138|talk]]) 02:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC) |
*My attempting to keep the whitewashing down was a major time sink. Especially since many of the refs are in Korean, Japanese, and other foreign languages. I finally gave up. The article needs to be protected from outright whitewashing in some way. {{ut|Sam Sailor}}'s revert to a pre-whitewash state is a good start. [[User:Jim1138|Jim1138]] ([[User talk:Jim1138|talk]]) 02:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC) |
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* Support restoration to version before whitewashing. Support topic-banning {{u|CollinsBK}}. She systematically deleted negative content which were well-sourced, and putting objections in Talk discussions by the wayside, reintroduced dubious claims that are poorly sourced/unsourced (<small>"the sexual assault charges were dismissed by the prosecutors involved" cf. [[Talk:Providence (religious movement)#YTN retractions|#YTN retractions]] or "900 million won in compensation" cf. [[Talk:Providence (religious movement)#JMS sued SBS from broadcasting|#JMS sued SBS from broadcasting]]</small>).--[[User:Kiyoweap|Kiyoweap]] ([[User talk:Kiyoweap|talk]]) 07:13, 3 May 2016 (UTC) |
* Support restoration to version before whitewashing. Support topic-banning {{u|CollinsBK}}. She systematically deleted negative content which were well-sourced, and putting objections in Talk discussions by the wayside, reintroduced dubious claims that are poorly sourced/unsourced (<small>"the sexual assault charges were dismissed by the prosecutors involved" cf. [[Talk:Providence (religious movement)#YTN retractions|#YTN retractions]] or "900 million won in compensation" cf. [[Talk:Providence (religious movement)#JMS sued SBS from broadcasting|#JMS sued SBS from broadcasting]]</small>).--[[User:Kiyoweap|Kiyoweap]] ([[User talk:Kiyoweap|talk]]) 07:13, 3 May 2016 (UTC) |
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*@[[User:Liz|Liz]]: Sorry, haven't looked at the problem in detail, but I thought I should point out that {{User|Shii}} unfortunately hasn't edited Wikipedia ''at all'' since July 2015. I really wish they were still around, but given that their 22nd-to-last article edit was to the article in question, it seemed a bit off to say they "decided to step back" from the dispute. I hope for the sake of the project's integrity in covering East Asian religion in general that what Shii intended was to "step back" from the project as a whole for a year or so and will decide to step back ''in'' at some point. Cheers. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 09:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC) |
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== This is...suspicious == |
== This is...suspicious == |
Revision as of 09:36, 3 May 2016
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
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BLP revdel on the Gamergate Talk page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Discussion
I am asking for a review for a revdel made on the Gamergate Talk page. The edit was made by MarkBernstein, who has since been topic-banned (not for this edit or anything directly related to this). It is verbatim, a passage from the Washington Post article, so cannot be deemed "unsourced or poorly sourced", which is the criteria for BLP removals without consensus. Ironically, the passage which was redacted is debunking/casting doubt on the allegations. I am not even allowed to refer to what it was about, since my edit was also revdeled. The link to the Washington Post article is here. The relevant passage starts with: There is, to be clear
.
Various rationales have been advanced on the talk page (see discussion here), but none of them stand up to scrutiny. IMO, this is a wild overreaction. The normalization of this kind of overreaction and weaponization of BLP on the talkpage has poisoned discussion and led to lots of strife, both pro- and anti-GG, for more than a year. Anyone who has engaged in discussion on WP knows how aggravating it is to have your comments refactored or redacted, by people who you don't particularly like. It's time this behaviour was rolled back. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Why? Wikipedia is not an exercise in free speech or anything else unrelated to development of the encyclopedia. Is someone suggesting an article should include mention of the person named in the linked article? What is the purpose of posting the link other than because we can? Editors should stick to discussion of actionable proposals that might plausibly improve the article, not prolong the agony of gamergate. Johnuniq (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I am quite unclear on what criteria are used to determine when to delete a revision on that talk page. Further, the practice of deleting verifiable information about claims which are relevant to (or already in) the article from the talk page is infantilizing. Protonk (talk) 13:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:BLPTALK is quite clear that where potentially problematic BLP info is *being discussed for inclusion in the article* a link to the source that will be used as a reference should be included on the talk page. Pasting an except from the source is not required (or even recommended if it turns out it is an issue) likewise if the material is not actually going to be included in the article at all then there is no need to discuss it on the talk page. From looking (briefly) at the talkpage, it looks like this is a case of the latter rather than the former. Washington Times (a reliable source) excerpt pasted by Mark Bernstein, no actual discussion for anything to be included into the article, so its basically pasting BLP-sensitive material for no purpose. It probably should have been removed and rev-del' unless there actually is going to be a discussion about incorporating it into the article. Then a link to the material should remain. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree that it is so clear. Here's what BLPTALK has to say "When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot." I cannot interpret that as an injunction against talking about it there, considering how much was on the talk page about the subject before. And given that amount of discussion, we shouldn't expect that the content would never appear on the page. If it were to appear, how would editors working on a contentious topic discuss the changes to the page, the author's meaning or the veracity of the claims without running afoul of that interpretation? Protonk (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well its not an injunction not to talk about it. The point is that you talk about it *if you are attempting to work it into the article* - I cant see that anyone was. It was just Bernstein doing his usual soapboxing - which is why I support it being removed on that basis. If it was intended to be a proposal to incorporate it into the article, it should have been linked to and discussed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- We're talking about this edit, correct? Sure, it's turned up to 11 and what-not, but the underlying ask seems clear to me. As I say below, they contrast it with an extant source in an ongoing discussion about how/if the subject should be portrayed in the article. How is that not a reasonable interpretation? Protonk (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well its not an injunction not to talk about it. The point is that you talk about it *if you are attempting to work it into the article* - I cant see that anyone was. It was just Bernstein doing his usual soapboxing - which is why I support it being removed on that basis. If it was intended to be a proposal to incorporate it into the article, it should have been linked to and discussed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree that it is so clear. Here's what BLPTALK has to say "When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot." I cannot interpret that as an injunction against talking about it there, considering how much was on the talk page about the subject before. And given that amount of discussion, we shouldn't expect that the content would never appear on the page. If it were to appear, how would editors working on a contentious topic discuss the changes to the page, the author's meaning or the veracity of the claims without running afoul of that interpretation? Protonk (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- The revdel was appropriate. The content included highly defamatory material about a living person. Just because some newspaper decides to publish unsubstantiated rubbish doesn't mean we can repeat it when not particularly relevant. Wikipedia era on the side of protecting the reputations of living people. Mark was trying to make a point, but in the process exposed this defamatory material. It would be sufficient to say Gamergqte tactics include opposition research and publication of unsubstantiated claims. It is not acceptable to repeat the unsubstantiated claims on Wikipedia. Our standards are higher than many newspapers. Jehochman Talk 13:26, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Horseapples. On what planet does that article contain defamatory material? I guess if we jumble the words in the article and re-arrange them to recreate the defamation the article was discussing that could work. Protonk (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well technically the linked Washington Post article does repeat allegations about a living person *which if untrue* would be highly defamatory. However it would not be Wikipedia defaming the subject, it would be the people making the allegations. The Washington Post would probably get a free ride too given they are merely reporting said allegations. But I repeat, unless any of this is actually going to be incorporated into the article (which it could theoretically be, given the subject was fired from her job after allegedly a long period of harrassment by Gamergate) it shouldnt be on the talkpage at all. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I edit conflicted w/ a reply above that might related here. There was and is talk page discussion about the subject, so inclusion of the material is not a remote consideration. And I'm not clear on your meaning about the Post. We make countless claims on this encyclopedia that if false would be defamatory. To justify this, we rely on sources like the post as a matter of course. I'm not saying quoting out the gate is the right route. BLPTALK (as you say) warns against it. But certainly redaction of the quotes is strongly preferable to deleting the material from history. Especially since if you read the comment from beginning to end it's clearly about including the material in the article and makes references to ongoing discussions about a different source they feel is inferior on the same subject. Protonk (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ah clearly I didnt read up far enough on the talkpage as I was stopping at Kingsindian's posts where he states that it wasnt about including it in the article. Since concensus already existed to remove the material from the article, revdel'ing what is clearly a BLP1E issue on the talkpage where no one is actually having a current discussion to include it still isnt that bad. (I get the feeling from the above talkpage discussion that the only person really for inclusion was Bernstein, and given his anti-GG viewpoint, unsurprising). Personally I would have just archived the lot which would be complaint with the BLP policy, but some people are more zealous about it. Re to Kingsindian below: If it isnt being currently discussed to go into the article, then it really shouldnt be on the talkpage. This isnt problematic in 99% of articles. It is potentially problematic with regards to living people. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I edit conflicted w/ a reply above that might related here. There was and is talk page discussion about the subject, so inclusion of the material is not a remote consideration. And I'm not clear on your meaning about the Post. We make countless claims on this encyclopedia that if false would be defamatory. To justify this, we rely on sources like the post as a matter of course. I'm not saying quoting out the gate is the right route. BLPTALK (as you say) warns against it. But certainly redaction of the quotes is strongly preferable to deleting the material from history. Especially since if you read the comment from beginning to end it's clearly about including the material in the article and makes references to ongoing discussions about a different source they feel is inferior on the same subject. Protonk (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well technically the linked Washington Post article does repeat allegations about a living person *which if untrue* would be highly defamatory. However it would not be Wikipedia defaming the subject, it would be the people making the allegations. The Washington Post would probably get a free ride too given they are merely reporting said allegations. But I repeat, unless any of this is actually going to be incorporated into the article (which it could theoretically be, given the subject was fired from her job after allegedly a long period of harrassment by Gamergate) it shouldnt be on the talkpage at all. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Horseapples. On what planet does that article contain defamatory material? I guess if we jumble the words in the article and re-arrange them to recreate the defamation the article was discussing that could work. Protonk (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- To some of the comments above. Nobody said anything about free speech, so that is a red herring. Also, the discussion is about discussion on the talkpage, not the article. I find the standard that "if it shouldn't be in the article, it shouldn't be on the talkpage" rather silly. Nobody uses such a standard: otherwise 99% of the talk page history would consist of revdels. And please don't make me laugh with the claim that Wikipedia's standards of defamation are higher than the Washington Post. Not to mention that there is nothing defamatory in the paragraph: it is literally the opposite of defamatory; it is debunking/casting doubt on the allegations.
- The main point is that WP:BLP is not a micromanaging tool to get rid of stuff one doesn't like. The effect of such (arbitrary) redactions is to inflame matters and confuse people. The redaction was a tit-for-tat action against an earlier redaction. This kind of stuff has to end. Follow policy as written and roll back the new normal. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:13, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I reverted your changes to the format. I doubt there's need for a poll like that in this discussion. Protonk (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Protonk: In fairly adequate experience in the Israel-Palestine area, I have found that in most discussions, most people don't change their mind. This format of "Discussion" and "Survey" is routine in RfCs I have participated in. I have reverted to the format. I meant to do this from the beginning, but forgot. There is no harm in it anyway. The closer would take it all into account. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:38, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I have left notices at WT:BLP and WP:VPP. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:10, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Survey
- Oppose revdel. See my reasoning above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsindian (talk • contribs)
- Oppose - any quote showing up in a reliable source, used in a discussion as evidence to your side in an argument, shouldn't be redacted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:44, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose revdel if for no other reason doing so might cause, at some later point, the same thing to be discussed again. Having a record visible of exactly what was discussed, and, presumably, found not worthy for inclusion makes it less likely that similar discussion on the same topic will be actively initiated in the future. If the source were a more questionable or less reliable one, then, maybe, I could see some point in removing it, but I don't think that would necessarily be the case here. John Carter (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- @John Carter: The first revdel removed a single word; the second a quote from an external source that was (and still is) linked in the discussion. I don't think those two removals make the discussion unclear—they simply avoid the allegations being repeated onwiki until a consensus is formed about whether it should be included in the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:31, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not sure what question this is a survey of. Whether or not an edit is violating BLP policy is a judgment call by an administrator and shouldn't be a matter put to a vote. If an admin believes the specific content maligns an individual's reputation and has no place in an article, they remove it. If you have a specific complaint about this particular rev-del, I'd take the issue to admin responsible for the action. If you are interested in a meta or policy discussion about whether the interpretation of BLP these days is too broad, I'd go to the policy talk page or the Village Pump, not ANI. Liz Read! Talk! 01:23, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Liz: For what it's worth, it has been brought to me. I stand by the the revdel, and will not be undoing it myself (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gamergate_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=715839454}). I too was a little surprised to see this at ANI—for some reason I thought revision deletion was discussed at WP:DRV—but I suppose this works too. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- The WP:revdel policy says that "They are subject to review by other administrators (who can see redacted material), and to reversal upon clear, wider consensus." Do you have a suggestion of another way of establishing clear consensus to reverse a revdel other than discussion and polling? Sperril (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I can't view the deleted revision but I looked at the Washington Post article and it seems fine to me. BLP1E is about whether to write an article about a person, not about revdelling a link on a talk page. For one thing, BLP1E deletions are usually done after a week-long community discussion at AfD with the article visible during the discussion, not unilaterally by admins at their whim before anyone sees what happened. It's hard for me to understand how this revdel is justified. I'm open to persuasion but I'd appreciate a more detailed explanation from the defenders. As someone who likes to look at page histories, I get that revdel is sometimes needed, and it doesn't bother me too much if occasional inappropriate revdels get through. But if they're being done too casually and not being restored when challenged, it contributes to a perceived tension between admins and users that sometimes gets remarked on here and that could potentially escalate various ways. It doesn't seem good. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC) Added: I'll have to look at some of the diffs given later. I won't be able to post again for the next few days. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 06:36, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: The increasingly widespread belief that BLP enjoins us from ever saying anything defamatory about a living subject is a fallacy: Wikipedia has many things to say about tens of thousands of living subjects that I expect they would desperately prefer be censored, if they weren't backed up with the ironclad sourcing that is what BLP actually requires. Jehochman's airy belief about we have higher standards than most newspapers is very well and good (if both unsubstantiated and unwarranted), but we're not talking about the National Enquirer or the local supermarket free weekly. We're talking one of the half-dozen newspapers that constitute the gold standard for journalism in the hemisphere. Ravenswing 07:27, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose -- unquestionably reliable source and relevant to the discussion. No possible harm, since the original source is very widely read, and trying to keep it off WP is in contrast of minor significance to the individual. Had this been a miscellaneous blog, wheere it would be us that is primarily publicizing the matter, I would have said otherwise. DGG ( talk ) 21:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose This article and subject should not be given some sort of special status with its own rules because some people for some inexplicable reason continue to obsess over it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support deletion. The allegation is damaging and perhaps false. The target is not notable, and editors on the page have agreed not to include the claim in the article. Therefore, there is no need to discuss it on the talk page, which is there to discuss article content. Insofar as it does need to be discussed, a link to the source suffices, per WP:BLPTALK: "When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot." There was no need to post the claim itself (I learned about it from that talk page, so leaving it there does spread it). There was certainly no need to start talking about it elsewhere, including here. SarahSV (talk) 23:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
IP hopping troll back?
A troll who has been hopping on IP range 86.187.x.x (last discussed here) seems to have returned on 31.55.89.19 (talk · contribs). Can somebody investigate and see if a new/revised rangeblock is appropriate? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, same chap. See also 31.55.127.56 (talk · contribs), 31.55.93.53 (talk · contribs) and he reverted Eik Corell, his other m.o., using 31.55.112.2 (talk · contribs) [1] last week. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's a big range, but there's only about 100 contributions from it since April 1, and a significant plurality of those are disruptive. I'll block 31.55.64.0/18 for one week. ACC is always available. Katietalk 17:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I haven't come into contact with the 31. range, rather, it's still the 86.187 range for me, with the latest being 86.187.161.103 (talk · contribs). Eik Corell (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- They're both BT ranges, Eik. We realised that the 86.187 range meddles with airline articles as did the 31.55 range who also reverted one of your edits. I've blocked the latest IP as straightforward block evasion and will look into this a bit more later today. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- I just remembered: One of the first IPs this year doing edits in the style of the 86.187 range was indeed an IP in the 31. range. Eik Corell (talk) 03:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think that pretty much confirms that it's the same person. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:46, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
- I just remembered: One of the first IPs this year doing edits in the style of the 86.187 range was indeed an IP in the 31. range. Eik Corell (talk) 03:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- They're both BT ranges, Eik. We realised that the 86.187 range meddles with airline articles as did the 31.55 range who also reverted one of your edits. I've blocked the latest IP as straightforward block evasion and will look into this a bit more later today. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- I haven't come into contact with the 31. range, rather, it's still the 86.187 range for me, with the latest being 86.187.161.103 (talk · contribs). Eik Corell (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's a big range, but there's only about 100 contributions from it since April 1, and a significant plurality of those are disruptive. I'll block 31.55.64.0/18 for one week. ACC is always available. Katietalk 17:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
This editor also edits under 31.50, 31.54, and 31.49 I believe, as well as other closely numbered 86.15x IPs. Tends to focus on video games and television from what I can see, and deliberately ignores establish project guidelines and edit war with any editor that reverts, including walking through contribution histories and mass reverting. Talk page messages are undone with no reply. It's a constant back and forth. I haven't been gathering a full list but some of the more recent Mar/Apr ones have been 31.54.6.123, 86.155.134.8, 86.158.232.106, and 81.158.219.34 ... Those four just from Quantum Break. The unfortunate thing is the editor would be making solid contributions if they wouldn't fight against various project guidelines.... -- ferret (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
- Latest IP, only one edit so far but it was to revert @Eik Corell again... 86.187.161.15 -- ferret (talk) 12:39, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- Now on IP 86.187.162.253. -- ferret (talk) 15:51, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now on IP 86.187.167.37. What can be done about a range block? @KrakatoaKatie and Malcolmxl5 -- ferret (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, ferret, I've blocked and semi-protected pages. I'll have another look at all this and the range block.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now 217.38.96.72 (talk · contribs). My, does this guy have nothing else to live for? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:09, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now 217.38.179.4 (talk · contribs). This is another BT range. Not much we can do with those at the moment except block the latest one. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:44, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- The possibility of contacting their ISP remains. I have contacted them about this user twice. They did respond the first time, after an incredibly long time, but at that point, I was being asked to provide server logs, which I didn't and do not have access to, and the user had stopped their disruptive behavior, so I let it go. With the recent editing, I contacted the ISP again with any and all details I could, including AN/I reports, all IP's used from the beginning of 2016, all the way back to some of the IPs used by the user over 6 years ago to establish that this was a recurring problem. No response so far, but maybe you guys will have more luck if you swing around some big words and phrases when you contact them; Adminstrator on Wikipedia, entire ranges of their dynamic IP's being blocked from editing if they don't act, etc. Oh by the way, new IP. Eik Corell (talk) 18:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- The most recent IP addresses are BT Wi-fi ranges so they may not even be a BT customer. If they are, it could be that without server logs the IP addresses are not enough to identify the user. Peter James (talk) 18:32, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- The possibility of contacting their ISP remains. I have contacted them about this user twice. They did respond the first time, after an incredibly long time, but at that point, I was being asked to provide server logs, which I didn't and do not have access to, and the user had stopped their disruptive behavior, so I let it go. With the recent editing, I contacted the ISP again with any and all details I could, including AN/I reports, all IP's used from the beginning of 2016, all the way back to some of the IPs used by the user over 6 years ago to establish that this was a recurring problem. No response so far, but maybe you guys will have more luck if you swing around some big words and phrases when you contact them; Adminstrator on Wikipedia, entire ranges of their dynamic IP's being blocked from editing if they don't act, etc. Oh by the way, new IP. Eik Corell (talk) 18:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- And 217.38.81.161 (talk · contribs) — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:24, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- Curiously, this one: 78.145.31.100 (talk · contribs), just came back to edit the same article it had edited a few days before. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:35, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- 109.156.64.61 (talk · contribs) — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:13, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- These look like two different editors - one undoing edits by Eik Corell on video game articles, the other editing airline articles. This one looks likely for the airport editor (although this time on BT Broadband) but the 78.145 (TalkTalk) IP may be unrelated. Peter James (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- Latest with aircraft is 217.38.126.10 (talk · contribs). The guy now uses each IP in short bursts for a few pages, then moves on. Previously, the reverting of Eik and the fiddling with aircraft were done by the same IP while it was in use. Another IP editor with a momentarily coincidental editing pattern could easily be mistaken for them. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 06:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I thought so at first, too, but immediately after I reverted some of of the 217. IP edits, this happened. Circumstantial I know, but quite a coincidence. Eik Corell (talk)
- I haven't found any IPs that connect them (although I've only looked at the 86.187 range) but haven't found both editing at the same time either so a connection looks likely. Peter James (talk) 00:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I thought so at first, too, but immediately after I reverted some of of the 217. IP edits, this happened. Circumstantial I know, but quite a coincidence. Eik Corell (talk)
- Latest with aircraft is 217.38.126.10 (talk · contribs). The guy now uses each IP in short bursts for a few pages, then moves on. Previously, the reverting of Eik and the fiddling with aircraft were done by the same IP while it was in use. Another IP editor with a momentarily coincidental editing pattern could easily be mistaken for them. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 06:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- These look like two different editors - one undoing edits by Eik Corell on video game articles, the other editing airline articles. This one looks likely for the airport editor (although this time on BT Broadband) but the 78.145 (TalkTalk) IP may be unrelated. Peter James (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now 217.38.179.4 (talk · contribs). This is another BT range. Not much we can do with those at the moment except block the latest one. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:44, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, ferret, I've blocked and semi-protected pages. I'll have another look at all this and the range block.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
There are several articles which this editor returns to war on again and again. Can I suggest that we semi-protect them for a while, until other measures can be refined? Happy to compile a list of the aero ones if asked. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Here we go again in the guise of 217.38.148.252 (talk · contribs). Pages re-abused this time include:
- Rossiya Airlines
- Thomas Cook Airlines
- Thomson Airways
- TUI Airlines Netherlands
- EgyptAir
- Air Transat
- Jet2.com
- List of airlines of Cyprus
So please, can we do some damage limitation and semi-protect while the negotiations drag on. This is a hot edit war not a UN negotiation. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:00, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Hot war now
Can somebody PLEASE semi-protect the worst afflicted pages! — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:39, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Calm down. I'm working on it. I've blocked 217.38.0.0/16 for ten days (which is a big freakin' range but there's 150 edits in last month with lots of disruption), and now I'll look at this guy. Katietalk 18:38, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Okay. I've blocked 86.187.160.0/21 for three months - I've blocked this range before, in February, and Future Perfect blocked it previously as well. I've blocked 86.163.94.157 on its own for now and I'm going to leave your articles unprotected because I want more data from the range. I can't rangeblock him with the other /21 because that's an ISP-level block. Katietalk 18:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. I guess being in the front line makes one nervous. Meanwhile I made a request for page protection, you may wish to close that - or should I simply withdraw it myself? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:59, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Okay. I've blocked 86.187.160.0/21 for three months - I've blocked this range before, in February, and Future Perfect blocked it previously as well. I've blocked 86.163.94.157 on its own for now and I'm going to leave your articles unprotected because I want more data from the range. I can't rangeblock him with the other /21 because that's an ISP-level block. Katietalk 18:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Today it has been 86.163.94.37 and 86.157.42.20 across Thomson Airways, Jet2.com, TUI Airlines Netherlands, TUIfly and Air Côte d'Ivoire, all abused before. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC) Today, 109.156.65.250 (talk · contribs) at Air Transat] and Jet2.com. 85.150.133.234 (talk · contribs) made similar edits to Turkish Airlines, but that is a fairly busy IP so may not be connected. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Seems a bit quieter now. There is a random scatter of single edits in similar vein across aviation-related articles by one IP or another, but then there always has been. I don't know how it has been lately for Eik Corell (talk · contribs). — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
User ChristensenMJ is summarily reverting an entire page merely to prevent clarity on uncomfortable issues for his church
I made many good faith edits to this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_of_the_Mormons%3F
and ChristensenMJ showed up not to edit anything in good faith but to merely revert the entire page back to the status quo WHICH INCLUDES reverting the page to a state where no references were in the reference section (a problem I had fixed in good faith).
ChristensenMJ falsely claims that I made personal opinions in the changes, when I did no such thing, yet he did not challenge any specific change, and he himself injected personal opinion in wholly reverting the page and undoing all my good faith edits, in a way that clearly denoted that he ignored ALL of my good faith edits. I consider what ChristensenMJ did to be a form of vandalism and CENSORSHIP of those attempting to update pages in good faith fashion. ChristensenMJ is clearly a mormon apologist who doesn't want pages updated that would provide any clarity on behavior by the mormon church. Protecting his church from being clearly and accurately described violates the rules of wikipedia and I believe his privileges should be suspended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.56.195 (talk) 02:52, 27 April 2016
- Yeah, I just reverted you: your commentary needs secondary sourcing. See WP:RS. Drmies (talk) 02:59, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have responded to the user's personal attacks made in postings on my talk page there, but to briefly respond here, I certainly don't believe anything inappropriate was done in reverting what I clearly noted were good faith edits. There is no protectionism taking place. Just looking for well written, appropriately sourced, npov edits - which these didn't seem to be. The lack of those traits and the writing style/content that seemed to imply some sinister effort on the church's part were all that made me "uncomfortable" - to use the IP's words. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:44, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
This user went overboard. I have known ChristensenMJ for several years, almost during the entirety of my Wikipedia experience. In that time, I have found him to be an invaluable contributor to Church-related articles. His attention to detail has been appreciated by me. I have personal knowledge, and my experience with him backs this up, that he has never been selfishly motivated in any edits he has made to Church-related pages. I also know that some anonymous editors come to Wikipedia for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble. I was called into question once by an anonymous editor for the "bullying" way in which I edit Church-related articles. Best to let these nutjobs blow off steam and then contribute constructively to Wikipedia, if they choose to do so. I think, ChristensenMJ, that you would be fully within your rights to remove this whole topic from your talk page. Don't let the blustering of an anonymous editor keep you from doing the amazing job you continue to do in working on Church-related articles. In the meantime, if something like this ever comes up again, I would have no qualms about speaking in your defense. Keep up the great work! --Jgstokes (talk) 00:11, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
User:Scolaire
User Scolaire has shown a pattern of uncivil behavior and disruptive editing which I think requires an administrative response. This issue was raised in a previous Administrators’ Noticeboard incident discussion, during which I was asked for evidence of Scolaire's behavior. However that discussion was closed before my evidence had been reviewed. In the intervening time I have prepared the evidence more carefully and added more evidence. I am posting that evidence now.
This will necessarily be a long post, because it contains evidence of a pattern of behavior rather than being a complaint about one specific act.
To summarize my findings: Scolaire seems to regard himself as having the power of a judge or inspector over the pages he edits. He acts as if he were authorized to remove at will contributions made by other users, and from that perspective he makes frequent disruptive cuts. There is a quibbling and arbitrary quality to the intention behind these cuts, even though they may be backed by technical justifications. Sometimes this disruptive behavior escalates to uncivil comments on talk pages, often in an imperious and demeaning tone, and accompanied by stubborn reverts to the opposing editor’s changes. The clear intention is to intimidate and wear down the opposing editor rather than to achieve consensus. In short he seems to want to assert that he is always right, and that anyone who disagrees with him, or does not defer to him, is automatically less authorized than him to make edits.
Scolaire’s deletions and disparaging remarks often provoke other editors into heated replies, which he then labels “personal attacks” or “harassment”. This is not just a form of grandstanding, it is in fact a veiled threat, since the terms "personal attack" and "harassment" constitute punishable offenses in the Wikipedia rules. This move also provides Scolaire with a justification for removing (or "redacting") comments critical of him from article talk pages and from User Talk pages. But in spite of this alleged sensitivity, Scolaire himself has very often intimidated users critical of his edits, especially if they were less experienced than himself, or less adept at citing the rules of Wikipedia.
I think this constitutes disruptive editing (or more precisely disruptive deletion and tendentious editing) accompanied by a kind of incivility that violates many Wikipedia guidelines - including “Don’t bite newcomers”, “Wikipedia is not a battleground”, “Wikipedia is not compulsory”, and “Be bold” (the latter because Scolaire is preventing other people from being bold), and probably others I am not aware of. To put it simply, he is acting against the spirit of open discussion and constructive consensus which is the hallmark of Wikipedia.
Listed below are some examples of Scolaire’s disruptive editing and incivility, along with links to the relevant pages. Examples involving myself have been saved for last, because I want to make the point that this aggressive behavior has also been aimed at many other editors besides me.
Article: The Troubles |
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1.1. On the page called The Troubles, Scolaire systematically removed and undid changes made by other editors, without trying to reconcile differences or improve the text. (Examples here, here, here, and here.) On the article talk page, user Gob Lofa posted a comment protesting against what he deemed to be the politically biased nature of Scolaire’s edits. Scolaire replied that Gob Lofa’s criticism was “nonsense” and that his edits had all been simple reverts of Gob Lofa’s edits. (But by that very statement, Scolaire was conceding he had not tried to improve the content.) Scolaire also accused Gob Lofa of bad faith, saying he had introduced “a convenient line break” to “hide other edits”. And Scolaire added: “Don’t complain when somebody does a blanket revert rather than try to sift out the good edits from the bad.” Gob Lofa invited Scolaire to insert “citation needed” templates where he felt more citations were needed. Scolaire replied: “Adding templates is not necessary. You know where citations are needed and for what. If you do not add them, your edit will be reverted.” The discussion continued in this way for several days, with Scolaire adopting a high-handed and suspicious tone (e.g.: "If it’s not policy-compliant, it can, should and will be reverted” – implying that he Scolaire is the highest authority), while Gob Lofa attempted to appease him, but also argued quite reasonably: “Disliking one part of an edit is no excuse for deleting all of it, that’s just laziness. It’s good that you’ve retreated from your earlier hyperbole but with more care these issues wouldn’t arise.” Scolaire came back with this: “Wrong edits should and will be reverted, and there is no onus on the person reverting to sift out what may be good parts of the wrong edits. Calling it ‘laziness’ is just being provocative. ... Any of your disputed edits that you cannot explain and source may not be restored. Anything that you can justify and get agreement on can. ... Now, this whole business of recycling the same bogus arguments and haranguing me about stuff that I didn’t even say is verging on trolling. I have made my position crystal clear. Unless you have something new to say and you say it in a civilised way, I’m not going to continue with this any longer. Goodbye and happy editing.” 1.2. Still on The Troubles, user Lordofsharks added a new section, after having proposed it on the talk page. The material was well-referenced, but Scolaire deleted it wholesale. Lordofsharks wrote in protest on the article talk page: “I do not believe that you should speak for other editors as you were the only one that brought up this specific issue. ... perhaps rather than simply deleting this information you could provide some specific problems with my submission rather than just stating that it has too much information.” Scolaire replied: “If you could present the ‘take-home message’ of your sandbox page in 100 words maximum, I believe it would be a useful addition to the article, but it is up to you to do the editing down. Trying to re-add massive blocks of text will only result in the edit being reverted again.” The tone of this last remark is typical of Scolaire's talk page comments. His ire in this case is perhaps explained by the fact that he had earlier offered editorial advice to Lordofsharks, which it seems Lordofsharks had not heeded. “I recommend you start small,” Scolaire had advised, “with things like copyediting, correcting small errors of fact and providing citations, and get the feel of it before working up to more major edits. By the way, don’t forget to sign your posts to talk pages by typing '~~~~' at the end. Good luck, and happy editing.” Lordofsharks ignored this patronizing advice, and suffered the consequences. But after his edit war with Scolaire, Gob Lofa and Cliomania came to the defense of Lordofsharks on the article talk page. Cliomania made the following comment: “Scolaire, could you not try editing the text contributed, rather than removing it wholesale? You might disagree with the length or weight of the entry, but suggesting that all of it is unworthy of inclusion seems to go against the spirit of Wikipedia. I believe all editors are encouraged not to bite the newbies. The alternative to reverting is to make constructive suggestions about what you think is really wrong with LordofSharks’s contribution.” Scolaire replied: “I haven’t said that it is “unworthy” of inclusion. ... I have suggested what might be done: that if Lordofsharks (or you) could present the ‘take-home message’ of his sandbox page in 100 words maximum, it would be a useful addition to the article. So now, can we stop the criticism of my behaviour and start talking about the content?” – This last exchange is a good illustration of Scolaire's intractability: another editor gently reprimanded him for having an overly harsh attitude, but Scolaire was not willing to accept the criticism or work with it. Instead he recast the criticism as an ad-hominem attack, and stuck to his intransigeant position. 1.3 In the controversy outlined in 1.2, Gob Lofa defended Lordofsharks against Scolaire. Scolaire then took to Gob Lofa's User Talk page to accuse him of “abuse”. The supposedly abusive comment which Scolaire objected was this, from the talk page for The Troubles: “I find your summary of that discussion wanting, Scolaire.” Gob Lofa then replied, still on his own talk page: “I don’t come on article talk pages to abuse you, neither at the talk page you provided a link to nor anywhere else. ... I pulled you up on misrepresenting the views of others there and now you’re misrepresenting my actions. Almost as if you were concerned with scoring points.” 1.4 About a year before the above controversy, but on the same article page, Scolaire removed a whole section of the article. He had proposed the removal on the talk page about ten days earlier, but the section in question had been part of the article for about a year and a half. About two months after Scolaire’s removal, user Jxm remarked on the same talk page: “I obviously wasn’t watching when Scolaire removed this section!” Jxm went on humbly: “I agree that it probably doesn’t merit its own section, as Scolaire notes. Instead, I suggest that we think about reinstating some revised form ... perhaps a few sentences in a footnote or a reference entry directing attention to some suitable sources as appropriate.” In essence Jxm was politely suggesting a compromise where Scolaire would add back some of the deleted text. Scolaire refused this compromise, claiming his existing edit "ought to suffice". |
Article: Derry |
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2. The talk page for the article Derry featured a vituperative dispute as to whether to change the article's name to “Londonderry”. Among the participants was a user named Dubs boy. Scolaire and Dubs boy took the dispute onto their User Talk pages for some additional sparring, which both immediately deleted (e.g. this, this, and this. Eventually Scolaire posted a comment addressed to Dubs boy on the Derry talk page, saying that he didn’t want to pursue the discussion with him; and he then immediately posted a comment to Dubs boy's User Talk page saying: “Once again, when I say I’m going to take no further part I mean I’m going to take no further part. Please don’t continue baiting me on Talk:Derry. Also, please do not respond to this by posting to my talk page. I don’t want to say anything more, regardless of whether you think I have engaged or not. Please respect that.” Dubs boy replied on Scolaire’s talk page: “You can’t tell someone to not post on your talk page while posting on theirs. The sort of hypocrisy that I have come to expect from you. I have not baited you, you have simply fallen into your own net.” Scolaire then initiated a complaint on the Administrators’ Noticeboard, which he titled “Harassment on my Talk page”. On the Noticeboard, no administrators made any comment, but Dubs boy posted many messages in his own defense, including one which resonates with the themes I have been highlighting: “Scolaire has been extremely dismissive of my comments at Talk:Derry, and demeaning of my opinion, without presenting any physical opposition argument, this along with claiming I am a minority in a phoney 11-4 RFC vote, would make anyone struggle to believe that I am the bully and oppressor. I think action should be taken against this user and his disruptive approach to dealing with issues and other peoples opinions.” Later on, Dubs boy posted a note to his own User Talk page asking Scolaire what the outcome of the Administrators Noticeboard discussion had been. Scolaire admitted that the case had been dropped by the administrators “for lack of interest”. A third editor then commented: “These guys [i.e. Scolaire and others] seem quite determined to block all opposition to their agenda. I don’t know what that editor [Scolaire] means by ‘opened ani’ but it is so indirect and avoiding of the important issues, that it must surely be a threat to comply.” - This exchange provides insight into the psychology of Scolaire’s pattern of objectionable behavior. The behavior seems to stem from willfulness, condescention, and over-sensitivity to criticism. These factors funnel into an aggressive use of Wikipedia rules and procedures against less educated or less experienced users. |
Article: Guy Fawkes Night |
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3. On the talk page for the article Guy Fawkes Night there was a debate about whether to merge the page with another one called “Bonfire Night”. This led to a heated exchange between Scolaire and an editor named Cassianto, during which Scolaire complained twice of Cassianto’s “ad hominem attacks” (here and here). When the exchange died down, user SchroCat then took the whole text of the exchange and put it into a collapsible box with the title “Complaining about ad hominem comments while insulting others and being petulant isn’t constructive or vaguely sensible.” The implication of this title was that Scolaire’s own comments had been provocative, and therefore to construe the heated replies to such comments as “ad hominem attacks” was hypocritical. Scolaire then insisted on changing the title of the box to “Unrelated discussion”, over several reverts, and gave as his edit summary: “removed personal attack”. SchroCat reverted with the edit summary: “If you want to delete all the vaguely personal comments on this page, do so, but stop editing my signed text. Should I delete all your comments?” SchroCat then posted a message to Scolaire’s User Talk page which said: “Editing other people’s comments ... on the basis that you are ‘removing personal attack’ is laughable, unless you want to strip out all such comments on the talk page. Try that and see how quickly a block will descend.” Scolaire replied: “That was not a comment. It was a hatnote. Hatnotes should be neutral and not contain personal attacks. I seriously considered taking you to AN/I but I can’t be arsed.” The disupte was nonetheless brought to ANI by another editor, and the involved parties were told to calm down or face a block. |
Article: Constance Markievicz |
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4.1 On the page for Constance Markievicz, a user giving his name as “Joe kearns” added cited material in support of a point. Scolaire meticulously removed his edits, though giving innocuous-sounding edit summaries for his removals. Joe kearns reintroduced his edits and there ensued a revert war (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, etc.) Joe kearns protested on the talk page; Scolaire then replied that he had added a few lines back in to please him, but “the rest of your post is nonsense. ... The ‘controversy’ ... is non-existant outside of the posts on this page by you and your alter-egos 78.18.211.113 and 78.16.86.228. Just peppering the talk page with your assertions doesn’t make it so.” Joe kearns replied: “I don’t have any alter egos, Scolaire. It would appear that more than one person disagrees with you, that’s all: it happens.” Not long after this Joe kearns was vindicated, because the point he had been defending was proved true and incorporated into the page. 4.2. On a related page (Casimir Markievicz), Scolaire removed an item added to the page by the same Joe kearns. Joe kearns protested on the talk page. Scolaire replied: “That’s all bluster.” Kearns then wrote: “You are using Wikipedia to perpetuate a falsehood, for reasons I can only guess at. ... I made my edits in good faith and backed them up with solid citations, and I want you to reinstate them. ... Instead of addressing the facts of the matter, you’re preoccupied with laying down the law on Wikipedia citations (as you see it). If you were interested in finding out the truth and making this article reliable, you would look at the evidence and address the questions it raises instead of quibbling over whether a source is primary or secondary.” |
My own controversy with Scolaire |
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Over a three day period from 29 March to 1 April 2016, I did a large amount of work on the page for Francis Sheehy-Skeffington, adding a lot of material, but basing my additions on the framework that was already present – so that my modification improved the accuracy, style and referencing of the existing material without challenging it substantively. On 4 April, a user named CanK9 commented on the talk page that among my additions one fact was wrongly cited, and he then supplied better references. On 8 April Scolaire replied to CanK9’s post, confirming that the references I had provided were inaccurate, but claiming as well that the references provided by CanK9 showed that the mis-cited fact was “not of great significance anyway,” and Scolaire therefore concluded: “I’m taking the sentence out.” Which he did. About an hour later he also went on to cut several other passages from the article in quick succession (see here, here and here – in each case without attempting to improve the wording. Another hour later Scolaire posted a note to the talk page stating that the material I had added made the article “totally lopsided,” and suggesting that a related page could be created into which the added material could be parked. Another editor replied disagreeing with the creation of a new page, and Scolaire then replied: “What do you suggest, then? Just cut out the added content?” The casual tone and aggressive implications of Scolaire’s comment upset me when I read the comment on 10 April, two days after it was posted. I responded in a rather heated fashion on the article’s talk page: “ ‘Just cut out the added content’ - thanks a lot, a-holes, I actually put several days work into that added content that you speak so lightly of cutting. And the added content is most certainly relevant, given that [etc.]. If you’re so concerned about balance with his suffragist work then why don’t you ADD content to that section, instead of achieving balance by CUTTING good content??” I admit that the foregoing was heated language, but I think that given the context this was not so bad. A dismissive suggestion to cut large blocks of text can be provocative and even offensive. The term “a-holes” in particular was later dug up and used against me, but I don’t think that term is particularly offensive in the context of online discussions today. Nevertheless, I now admit that the above language was a regrettable lapse and distracted from my main contention – namely that Scolaire’s proposal to aggressively delete a large amount of material from the page was a disruptive misuse of editorial privilege. 5.2. At 08:09 UTC on 11 April I posted a comment about Scolaire to the talk page of an article about Sir Francis Vane, a person linked to Francis Sheehy-Skeffington. The comment read: “User Scolaire deleted material from this page which is informative and valuable. I am undoing his deletion accordingly. The material links this page to Francis Sheehy-Skeffington’s page, and one of Vane’s chief claims to fame is his righteous role in the story of Sheehy-Skeffington’s murder.” To understand this note it is necessary to add that in the course of my work on Sheehy-Skeffington I made several changes to the Francis Vane page on 31 March 2016. Then on 8 April, Scolaire removed a hatnote from the page which had been there since before I had begun editing, and which Scolaire himself had left standing on several previous edits (e.g. here). The hatnote directed readers to the Sheehy-Skeffington page for details on a murder Francis Vane had helped to expose. At 08:15 I then posted to Scolaire’s talk page: “User Scolaire, your edits to various pages related to the 1916 Easter Rising show alarming signs of political bias. In particular, you are removing material critical of the British Empire. Please cease from doing this and restore wantonly removed material!” Scolaire replied at 08:28: “Tone it down, man! I’ve responded at Talk:Francis Vane.” But the response Scolaire was referring to (made at 08:27) had nothing to do with my message to him, and was only about the minutiae of the edit to that particular page. 5.3 At the time of the discussion summarized in 5.2, and because of the rather heated exchange with Scolaire on the previous day, I had already begun to look over Scolaire's recent "user contributions" (i.e. the pages he had been editing recently). I noticed that they were mostly pages related to the Irish War of Independence. Later I noticed that on the page Partition of Ireland Scolaire had removed an info-box which linked the page to the series History of Ireland. Scolaire gave as his reason for removing the box: “Doesn’t belong here”. The box was in a subsection of the article rather than in the lead, so I presumed Scolaire meant that it didn’t belong in the subsection. Looking through the history of the page I saw that this info-box had been on the page for eight years, but at some point it had migrated from the lead into the subsection. So at 08:33 on 11 April, I put the box back in its original place in the lead of the article. Scolaire undid my edit, claiming the article was “not part of the series”. I wrote a note to Scolaire on his User Talk page saying: “On the page Partition of Ireland you removed a series box linking to other articles on the History of Ireland. You say you removed it because it did not belong in a sub-heading. Fair enough, but why did you not then paste it into the main title section? Instead you removed it completely. This type of edit is not justifiable - it would have been better to simply leave it there in its imperfect place, than to remove it completely. When your edits of this kind also have a political bias it is hard not to reach the conclusion that you are censoring Wikipedia to conform to your tastes.” Scolaire replied: “I’ve been editing Wikipedia for over ten years. I don’t need you or anybody else telling me what constitutes proper actions. If an article is improved by removing something I remove it, and if somebody disagrees they can make a case on the talk page. The infobox didn’t belong anywhere on the Partition article. It is specifically for articles in the ‘History of Ireland’ series, and that article isn’t one of them.” – Note Scolaire’s one-sided logic here: he himself can delete at will; anyone wishing to add material must make a case on the talk page. |
Scolaire's removal of critical comments |
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6. After the above controversy had escalated to the aforementioned complaint on the Administrators' Noticeboard, Scolaire deleted most traces of my ever having criticized him from active pages where other users could see them. He deleted talk page comments of mine that were critical of him here, here, here, here and here – generally under the excuse that they were “personal attacks”. And he even “redacted” a comment of mine and then “replied” to the manipulated comment! The messages Scolaire described as "personal attacks" were clearly not personal attacks according to the Wikipedia guideline. The offending messages did not contain threats of violence or legal action, or insulting epithets, or any kind of insult directed personally against Scolaire. They were not taunting, jeering, malevolent, or in bad faith. They were not ad-hominem attacks, but substantive criticisms of his editorial behavior. In short my messages were aimed exclusively at his acts as an editor, not at his personal dignity or safety. I have encountered several other places where Scolaire also removed criticism in a similar fashion: in June 2015, Scolaire and another editor engaged in several rounds of mutual removal of criticism on their respective talk pages (e.g. this, this, this and this). In August 2015, another editor who had experienced Scolaire's mindbending "redaction" of his own talk page comments replied to Scolaire: “Editing other people’s comments ... on the basis that you are ‘removing personal attack’ is laughable.” In October 2015, Scolaire removed another editor’s critical comment from his own talk page and transferred it onto the critic’s talk page. |
Conclusion
Scolaire’s practice of arbitrary deletion, and his aggressive reaction to criticism, constitute an unhealthy combination of factors which is both coercive and intimidating to come up against. When this goes unchecked, it creates around it an atmosphere of tension, suspicion and ill-will. I therefore request that some form of non-deletable caution be issued to him, which other users could see in the event they became involved in similar types of conflict with him. Given Scolaire's propensity to erase criticism, something like this is required so that future users are empowered to question his authority.
- Wwallacee (talk) 06:17, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Wwallacee: This really needs to be condensed down. Anything more than a third of what you write here is likely to be ignored. Wall of text posts are not the way to ask for help. Blackmane (talk) 06:54, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've taken the liberty to hat all of the content for ease of reading. Blackmane (talk) 06:58, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have not interacted with Wwallacee since his block on 12 April for harrassing me (see previous ANI case here), and he has not interacted with me. The fact that he has spent those fifteen days preparing this "case" against me shows that he did not, after all, learn anything from his block. I'll say no more, except to note that the whole "case" relates to articles that Wwallacee had no involvement in, with the exception of three consecutive edits to Francis Sheehy-Skeffington and one to Francis Vane. Scolaire (talk) 07:03, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Blackmane, thanks for "hatting" the content. I have taken the liberty of editing the section titles slightly. I agree this post is lengthy, but I am attempting to show a larger pattern of behavior, beyond the incidents that concern me directly.
- During the last ANI discussion, I was asked by the administrators to provide evidence. I did provide some evidence at the time, but the discussion was closed before a proper discussion of that evidence could take place. In the meantime, I have considered the evidence more carefully and have provided additional evidence for my complaint against Scolaire. -Wwallacee (talk) 07:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just a simple question, do any of these diffs happen after your ban on April the 12th?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:43, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Serialjoepsycho: The answer is no. The diffs concern Scolaire's behavior prior and up to the time of my controversy with him on 8-11 April. I have not done any research on Scolaire's behavior since the ANI complaint he filed against me on 11 April.
- Just a simple question, do any of these diffs happen after your ban on April the 12th?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:43, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- During the last ANI discussion, I was asked by the administrators to provide evidence. I did provide some evidence at the time, but the discussion was closed before a proper discussion of that evidence could take place. In the meantime, I have considered the evidence more carefully and have provided additional evidence for my complaint against Scolaire. -Wwallacee (talk) 07:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- With reference to the block of my user account, I want to add that it was a temporary block for 48 hours. The administrator who imposed the block wrote on my User Talk page: "If you wish to persist in your case against Scolaire after the block expires, then do so with diffs and a calm, neutral explanation of why the edits are problematic." - Wwallacee (talk) 07:55, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- So he's preventing people from being bold by reverting them is your complaint or at least in part?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've read thru almost all of the above and I went back to the talk pages of the article to review most of the conversations. What I'm seeing mostly is WP:BRD. What I'm seeing from you is really a complaint about WP:BRD. Be bold and make a change, if it reverts go to the talk a page and discuss it. This very much seems to be the case for Scolaire. This is not something that requires Admin action as it is the way it should be.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:57, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, he is preventing people from being bold. But that is just the beginning of it. Scolaire's pattern of reverting often involves large-scale deletion of material, and he usually does not attempt to compromise or improve the content. There is also intimidation on talk pages of anyone who questions this behavior, and then also removal of critical comments, justified by him with allegations of "personal attack" and "harassment". - Wwallacee (talk) 09:03, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- With reference to the block of my user account, I want to add that it was a temporary block for 48 hours. The administrator who imposed the block wrote on my User Talk page: "If you wish to persist in your case against Scolaire after the block expires, then do so with diffs and a calm, neutral explanation of why the edits are problematic." - Wwallacee (talk) 07:55, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Wwallacee, you posted to the talk pages of articles where you had no dispute with me, saying that my edits showed alarming signs of political bias, that my procedure was to remove and strip away potentially interesting content, and that my behaviour was wanton. None of that is about content. It is all personal, it is all adverse and it is all untrue. Hence, an unwarranted personal attack (which you repeated 21 times on pages where you had no involvement, hence harassment). Are you seriously saying I should have allowed that smear to remain on the talk page of every article I work on, just because you were mad at me for reverting you once? Scolaire (talk) 09:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Wwallacee, you need to go back and read WP:BOLD. you don't understand it at all. If you have a problem with people doing large reversions then make smaller incremental changes. The evidence you show, the discussions show that he actually is willing to compromise.. The main thing that I really question is if you are here to build an encyclopedia. JzG told you to come back in a calm neutral manner. Not really seeing the calm or neutral. He also suggested you simply drop the stick. The only thing I've seen with your wikilawyering is that you have an axe to grind with Scolaire. Wikipedia is not a battle ground.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- In reply to Scolaire's comment above: I don't think my own prior behavior, which has already been sanctioned, is fair grounds for discussion here. What is being discussed today is Scolaire's pattern of disruptive editing and incivility.
- But for the record, let me give my own account of the messages Scolaire is referring to. On 11 April, I attempted to bring Scolaire’s disruptive editing to the attention of other editors by means of a naive and unorthodox tactic: posting warning messages to a number of article talk pages that I had identified as being Scolaire’s primary territory. These notes stated (with some variation in the specifics) that I thought Scolaire had been arbitrarily deleting material he disagreed with rather than make any attempt to improve it. I solicited other contributors to monitor this and restore wantonly deleted material. Here is an example. These messages were deleted by an administrator about 45 minutes after they were posted, and 30 minutes after Scolaire had opened an ANI complaint about them. I now regard this as an appropriate action, and I regret having posted the messages. A better forum for airing my complaint about Scolaire's behavior would have been the Administrators' Noticeboard, which is where it is now being aired. However, I don't agree that those messages constituted personal attacks according to Wikipedia guidelines: they did not contain threats of violence or legal action, or insulting epithets, or any kind of insult directed personally against Scolaire. Nor were my messages taunting, jeering, or malevolent in tone. Nor were they written in bad faith. In truth, my messages were essentially a kind of grass-roots attempt to raise awareness about Scolaire's editorial behavior without going to the Administrators' Noticeboard – however misguided that may have been (as I now freely admit).
- That said, those messages are not relevant to the present discussion. What Scolaire was replying to just now was my allegation that he has deleted comments critical of him. He did this to a number of other messages of mine which are not among the offending messages just described. Examples: here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Scolaire removed (or "redacted") these comments on the grounds they were "personal attacks", which they clearly were not. Again, they did not contain threats of violence or legal action, or insulting epithets, or any kind of insult directed personally against Scolaire.
- From WP:NPA: "These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done" (emphasis in original). Any posts of yours that I deleted or edited were insulting and disparaging, and were not about content. Scolaire (talk) 10:54, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- To get back to the question of whether the main issue here has to do with WP:Be bold... I want to be clear that Scolaire's disruptive editing goes way beyond this. For example, he stubbornly reverts other users when they want to restore material he has deleted (examples here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, etc.) He also engages in wholesale deletion of blocks of text (examples here and here - with talk page objection to his deletions here and here). He also has a pattern of interpreting other editors' critical comments as abuse, and thus shutting down productive discussion of his deletions (examples here, in reply to this; and here, in reply to this; and here and here, with response here). - Wwallacee (talk) 11:39, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
So he revets and they want to restore? how do you know they want to restore? Have the perhaps went to the talk page and made that known? This is all sounding alot like WP:BRD.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:09, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Serialjoe, there is an authoritarian quality to Scolaire's deletions and to his talk page comments - as if he does not admit the possibility of error, and so he doesn't think it necessary to compromise - ever. The pattern goes like this, in escalating order: (1) revert the opposing editor; (2) if the opposing editor objects, revert again as often as necessary without attempting to compromise; (3) if the opposing editor objects, intimidate and discredit the opposing editor on the talk page; (4) if the opposing editor objects, make insinuations of abuse; (5) if the opposing editor objects, report the opposing editor to ANI for harassment or personal attack.
- In order to get a full sense of this you have to look at examples in context. For instance in example 1.1 above under the heading "Article: The Troubles", I've profiled a sequence of stubborn reverts, followed by a protest on the talk page, followed by a reply from Scolaire that is both dismissive ("nonsense") and attempts to discredit the critic, and this goes on for several cycles until Scolaire accuses his critic of "haranguing" and "trolling". Or look at example 4.1 under the heading "Constance Markievicz", for a similar story. And look at the example given under the heading "Article: Derry", for an example of Scolaire taking his critic to ANI over a critical comment which Scolaire characterized as "harassment". - Wwallacee (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- You have a narrative, but from my personal review of the diffs you provide, the early ones you provided that I reviewed I'm not actually seeing your narrative. MAybe someone else well look and see your narrative.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 15:59, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I would really like an admin, before this gets archived, to quietly tell this person it's time to stop. I want to be able to log on in the morning and not find that another "case" has been opened against me. Thanks. Scolaire (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- In reply to the above, Scolaire's interventions in this discussion have all had as their only point to avoid the substance of my allegations by trying to discredit me personally. There is nothing objectionable about what I have done here. I was asked to provide evidence and I have done so, scrupulously. Scolaire's latest comment again illustrates one of my main contentions, namely his need to control all criticism of his editorial behavior. - Wwallacee (talk) 06:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Again, I would ask that an admin tell Wwallacee that what he is saying is not so, that he has had it pointed out to him repeatedly that it is not so, and that it is unacceptable to continue to repeat these allegations. To ignore this campaign of harrassment is to send a message that it is okay to keep doing it. Scolaire (talk) 15:31, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Scolaire's attempt to label this discussion as "harassment" is another iteration of his well-established pattern of shutting down criticism by framing it as personal attack. I've already given many examples of this behavior prior to my own controversy with Scolaire, but since Scolaire is reiterating, let me also reiterate: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. This kind of behavior is wrong enough, but to seek protection for it is even worse. What would be helpful at this point in my opinion, would be for Scolaire to acknowledge that a pattern of coercive editing has existed, and to commit to changing it. I welcome further comments from administrators. - Wwallacee (talk) 07:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, but surely this is not allowed?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Doctor Papa Jones (who apparently also goes by User:Jonas Vinther) is allowing some unspecified number of random people to contribute from his account, according to his userpage (it's right at the top):
- "I have some friends who occasionally make edits using my account."
This is not allowed -- in fact, it's so not allowed that I can't find the rule right off. It's kind of like "Users will be subject to gravity". Presumably an admin can find the rule, if that's even necessary.
There is this Meta page which states "To use [role accounts], consensus must be made". Roll accounts, though, would be for entities such as User:BritishMuseum (or more likely User:VBC_PR_Department etc.). I'm pretty sure that if roll accounts are allowed (which I'm pretty sure not, on the English Wikipedia), they're for properly constituted organizations and not for "me and my housemates and anybody else at the party" or whatever, with no prior OTRS permission required.
In fact, this is a copyright mess now, since the copyright remains with the contributor (it is released for use by others under CC BY-SA 3.0 by pressing the Enter button, but not waived entirely). It's impossible now to know who wrote what, and in theory all of contributions made by people using this account should be rolled back (I'm not advocating going that far though). This is even putting aside potential for the the whole "Well it was my housemate who called you an asshole, not me" sort of thing and so forth. It's just a mess.
(FWIW, I came this user's page after being directed to this ANI thread where it apparently has come that the user is a nazi sympathizer and a nasty piece of work generally, although the thread was dropped for whatever reason. This isn't directly related to my complaint, but it sure as heck does not incline me (nor should it incline anyone) to be of the mind "Well, yeah, but he's a nazi, so let's cut him a break")... Herostratus (talk) 17:42, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- THe policy you're looking for is WP:NOSHARE, and yeah that's an admission that their account is shared, which is clearly not allowed. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Herostratus I guess you didn't look at his user talk page where I posted a message to him about this earlier today. Ideally, you should talk to the editor about issues to try to resolve them before bringing a complaint to ANI unless there is active damage being done to the project. This problem could be resolved by Doctor Papa Jones stating that this was a past practice and he no longer allows other users to edit from his account and remove that statement from his user page. I would like to hear from the editor before passing any judgment. Liz Read! Talk! 18:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Immediately starting an ANI discussion rather than simply going to my talk page is extremely dumb, to the point of embarrassing. In this particular case, Liz sets a good example, so thank you for that. And Herostratus, comments such as "a nazi sympathizer and a nasty piece of work generally" are obvious personal attacks. Refrain from making such untrue and rude remarks in the future or I will report you! You should instead use your time to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. Anyway, I have ensured that only I will edit from my account in the future and also removed the statement from my userpage. Best, Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 21:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Discussion Continues
My closure has been called into question. So, by all means - discuss the topic further here. Sorry for stifling the discussion here. SQLQuery me! 23:28, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Endorse close: The ideal situation would be that Jonas had a committed identity in place that he used to verify that he was the person who changed the password. Unless there's a pressing need to indef him and force him to start a new account, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be done. Except perhaps screaming "WHEEEE". —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:32, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- In all seriousness - The rules were explained to this guy. He appears to get it. Fan-flippin-tastic. He says he made a change to comply with our rules. Is this an ongoing threat to the encyclopedia? Can you explain to me how a block would improve the encyclopedia in this case - without using the word 'nazi'? SQLQuery me! 23:36, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I second that. Let's not make a big fuss out of an innocent misunderstanding. Best, Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 23:47, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
We are not a bureaucracy. Herostratus's complaints are both insulting and baseless. Referring to another editor as a nazi is a great way to get blocked. You said "this issue is not going to go away", well I think it is going to go away as it is really nothing to make a fuss about. HighInBC
Well yes but here's the deal. It turns out I was right, and WP:NOSHARE says (emphasis added):
- "Sharing an account – or the password to an account – with others is not permitted, and evidence of doing so will result in the account being blocked.
Looks pretty straightforward to me.
And as a matter of fact it is regularly enforced. One editor -- an important and useful editor -- had to crawl through glass to save her career her just because another person was using her computer (not her account). She's not the only one.
There are very significant copyright considerations here -- orders of magnitude worse than copy-and-paste moves for instance -- and it's a WMF-level problem if the admin corps no longer cares about this.
But OK. Maybe the admin corps has decided it doesn't like this policy and isn't going to enforce it. Can't make 'em I guess. But it is very very significant and major policy change if you are going to stop enforcing WP:NOSHARE. We have to have an RfC, a CENT RfC I guess, and the copyright people are going to want to weigh in, and the WMF will probably need to have input. It the result of all this (as I would guess is likely) is "Well, no, we like WP:NOSHARE fine", I'm not sure what happens then.
Or you could, you know, enforce the policy, as you've supposed to do. I'm just saying.
As for the nazi thing... it's not related to the matter at hand, but I like to look at the whole situation: the person egregiously, incredibly stupidly, and for a long time, violated a core rule for which the required sanction is termination, and in addition he's a fascist (at the very least, and apparently a nazi sympathizer I gather), which we don't want and cant really have here (see Jimbo's take on the matter, if you care) so getting rid of him is win-win. I linked you the thread earlier (it's here. It was a ANI thread that was initiated by this person and should have boomeranged against him probably, but (losing badly; efforts such as ""But that's like me saying you should not edit such articles either because you're an anti-Nazi -- and that doesn't make any sense!" probably didn't help) he withdrew his complaint and was allowed to do so (a failure of diligence IMO) and so here we are.
Some excerpts:
- "editing has consistently had a Nazi fanboy tone" User:Nick-D (an admin FWIW)
- "self-identifies as fascist and pro-Nazi" (User:Maunus)
- "insists on his user page that mainstream history of the Nazis is wrong, and that only he knows the TRUTH about his hero Hitler." (User:Viriditas)
- "he quits Wikipedia, complaining that WP is 'anti-fascist and pro-democratic' and claims that '99% of all Hitler-related documentaries, in particular those made by the BBC and ABC, is pure anti-fascist propaganda crap'" User:Jeppiz
- (Addressed to this person): "I do hope you are aware that I quite openly self identify as Jewish around here. I think you should accept a period of mentoring in terms of the material and methodology you adopt in Nazi - related subject areas" ( User:Irondome)
- "I suggest that anyone checking his editing history, will observe his facist sympathies." (User:David J Johnson)
According to User:Nick-D, this (which just says it can't be displayed) shows that user self-identified as something -- a nazi or else a fascist, I gather, and complained about the Wikipedia being anti-fascist. Apparently some combination of deletion and page moves have made this material unavailable to view (the intent, obviously) but I would think an admin could restore that.
Apparently according to User:Drmies, speaking at at another thread, this user was issued a topic ban at some point... the thread ("User:Jonas Vinther ownership of content at the German SS") is here but I haven't read it, as this is getting above my pay grade -- I write articles. It's supposed t be you guys's job to handle people like this. Herostratus (talk) 05:56, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You would do well to keep your issues separate. There is no call for a block for shared accounts because that has been addressed. HighInBC 08:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Given that Jonas was already close to exhausting the community's patience due to the previous stuff (in short, self-identifying as a fascist and adding large quantities of pro-Nazi material to articles concerning Nazi Germany, leading to a broad topic ban which was instituted last November, and a "not yet" conclusion to a simultaneous discussion of whether he should be blocked outright), a light touch response to blatantly violating a core Wikipedia policy here seems inappropriate. I also think that Liz may have erred in her reading of WP:NOSHARE: it states that shared accounts will be blocked on sight. More importantly, if Jonas has been sharing his account it has to be treated as compromised until proven otherwise - how do we know who reset the password and is currently operating it? WP:COMPROMISED seems clear on the subject. Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Nick-D holds a deep personal dislike of me, and I of him, so any comments about my conduct on Wikipedia made by him carries absolutely no weight at all. He would be more than happy to see me blocked and I suspect it's the sole reason he participates in this discussion. And since we're playing a game of Godwin's law, you are a fascist and Nazi sympathizer too, Herostratus! Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 12:03, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You have self-identified as a fascist on your user page, where you also stated that "This user supports far-right politics", and "Make no mistake, 99% of all Hitler-related documentaries, in particular those made by the BBC and ABC, is pure anti-fascist propaganda crap and should never be considered anything else." So herostratus is well within his rights to call you a fascist. Do you have, on the other hand, any evidence that Herostratus is "a fascist and Nazi sympathizer"? Otherwise it would be best if you immediately removed those statements. Fram (talk) 13:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Fram, you live in your own little fantasy world; there is no evidence whatsoever that I'm a Nazi sympathizer and I have never made any pro-Nazi edits to any articles, yet I've been sanctioned for such. Also, bare in mind he called me a "nasty piece of work generally" which is pure horseshit. Face fact! Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 15:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I dont see how one could expect more evidence for your being a Nazi sympathizer than the fact that you explicitly stated so on your user page. This is a fact. You may regret that now, but it is a fact you need to face with more integrity than you are doing now. I dont think you are "a nasty piece of work", but your lack of sound judgment and critical thinking in writing about Nazi related topics is obvious to any one who looks over your contributions.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Fram, you live in your own little fantasy world; there is no evidence whatsoever that I'm a Nazi sympathizer and I have never made any pro-Nazi edits to any articles, yet I've been sanctioned for such. Also, bare in mind he called me a "nasty piece of work generally" which is pure horseshit. Face fact! Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 15:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You have self-identified as a fascist on your user page, where you also stated that "This user supports far-right politics", and "Make no mistake, 99% of all Hitler-related documentaries, in particular those made by the BBC and ABC, is pure anti-fascist propaganda crap and should never be considered anything else." So herostratus is well within his rights to call you a fascist. Do you have, on the other hand, any evidence that Herostratus is "a fascist and Nazi sympathizer"? Otherwise it would be best if you immediately removed those statements. Fram (talk) 13:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
It sort of seems like the "shared account" thing was burying the headline here. If the user is being disruptive in other ways then the shared account is just a red herring. If there is a problem we should be blocking the user, not the account(people blocked for having shared accounts are often welcome to create another). HighInBC 16:57, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia_talk:Featured_articles#Claiming_FA_contributions for other concerns about this editor. Drmies (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have cleared up these so-called "other concerns" on the talk page. Case closed. And stay on topic. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 17:34, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Re: premature archive, my bad. Somehow missed the subsection. Consider me self-trouted. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:46, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- No problem--thanks. Drmies (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies, please confirm that the issue you referred to here is solved. I'd appreciate that. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 20:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- No problem--thanks. Drmies (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Doctor Papa Jones and I have been in contact throughout his Wikipedia career due to our overlapping interest in our suite of articles on Nazi Germany. There's definitely a pattern of him not taking the time to learn about our policies and guidelines ahead of time, and he's been in trouble several times because of that. In addition to the stuff already mentioned (sharing his account and the topic ban on Nazi topics), there was the following things, some of which are historical and are not being repeated, and some of which are more recent:
- quick-passing articles during the GA Cup in 2014. He withdrew from the competition. The best link I could find was Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles/GA Cup/Archive 1
- Copyright violations at Leni Riefenstahl in summer 2015. Talk:Leni Riefenstahl/GA1. There may have been other instances of copy vio as well. I am pretty sure there were, but Riefenstahl definitely.
- Canvassing for votes for the RFA for GeneralizationsAreBad (March 2016). Diff of User talk:Doctor Papa Jones
- Most recently, he sent me an email on April 16 asking if I would like to work on User:Doctor Papa Jones/Nazi power, a planned article on material that is the subject of his topic ban. I never replied to his email, so he followed up on my talk page, User talk:Diannaa#YGM. I guess he was not aware of our policy against proxy editing, which this email was not quite but almost a violation of. So what we have here is an enthusiastic editor who is not taking the time to learn about our policies and guidelines, and is repeatedly crossing over the line. However, he is obeying policies and guidelines once they are brought to his attention. — Diannaa (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is eminently clear that the discussion has digressed from the "shared account" question to general conduct issues. Not sure how much I can add to this besides asking for all involved to please remain calm and avoid any name-calling that will divert attention from the legitimate issues at hand. This has the potential to generate far more heat than light. My apologies for stating the obvious, it just needs to be said, especially since the last thread got very tense. GABHello! 21:07, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well, you're correct about that User:GeneralizationsAreBad. I'm entirely at fault for that. So, sorry. My reasoning was on the order of "Well, if you ever do want to bend this rule and make an exception, maybe this is not the person you want to do it for".
- Anyway, at this point my main interest is just knowing what the rule is. I was blocked without warning or discussion for sharing much less than this person did (or anyway of having been thought to have shared, it was actually a misunderstanding), but that was some years ago, and if the de facto rule has changed, its changed, and fine. Just want to know. To that end I've opened an RfC, here: Wikipedia talk:Username policy#RfC: Is it time to relax a bit on WP:NOSHARE?. Herostratus (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I have blocked Doctor Papa Jones for 24 hours for his personal attacks against Herostratus higher up this page ("you are a fascist and Nazi sympathizer too"), after I had given him a chance to withdraw them (or provide evidence for them), which he didn't do. Attacking someone on his political or ethical beliefs is not the best thing to do here in general; but accusing someone of having such leanings or sympathies without any evidence for it is way out of line. Fram (talk) 07:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- That would probably be a block well-placed in both directions. "Do nazis get special consideration that admins don't?" SQLQuery me! 01:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- I second that. Herostratus received no block or even warning for calling me a "nasty piece of work generally" or for being extremely rude to SQL on his talk page following his initial closer of the discussion. I smell favoritism! Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 11:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- It seems odd, Fram, that Doctor Papa Jones received a block when Herostratus repeatedly called him a "a nazi sympathizer and a nasty piece of work generally" and repeated other editors' personal attacks against him. If anything, Herostratus' repeated attacks warrant a block. Liz Read! Talk! 11:58, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- No one is stopping you, but I won't do it myself. I see quite some difference between calling somone "a nazi sympathizer" when that person gives everfy impression of being a nazi sympathizer, and calling someone a nazi sympathizer without any reasonable argument for such description. As for "repeating other editor's personal attacks", you mean things like
- It seems odd, Fram, that Doctor Papa Jones received a block when Herostratus repeatedly called him a "a nazi sympathizer and a nasty piece of work generally" and repeated other editors' personal attacks against him. If anything, Herostratus' repeated attacks warrant a block. Liz Read! Talk! 11:58, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- I second that. Herostratus received no block or even warning for calling me a "nasty piece of work generally" or for being extremely rude to SQL on his talk page following his initial closer of the discussion. I smell favoritism! Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 11:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
"Some excerpts: "editing has consistently had a Nazi fanboy tone" User:Nick-D (an admin FWIW), "self-identifies as fascist and pro-Nazi" (User:Maunus), "insists on his user page that mainstream history of the Nazis is wrong, and that only he knows the TRUTH about his hero Hitler." (User:Viriditas)"? Well, much of it aren't personal attacks but accurate reports of what he claimed on his user page, and the remainder are observations by multiple experienced editors of a general pattern in his edits. Finally; Herostratus above has apologised for his remarks: GAB said "please remain calm and avoid any name-calling", and Herostratus replied "Well, you're correct about that User:GeneralizationsAreBad. I'm entirely at fault for that. So, sorry." DP Jones on the other hand was also given the chance to retract his remarks, but choose not to. So one person was called out on his self-declared preferences, and later apologised for the name-calling. Another editor invented similar preferences for someone, and refused to retract them or provide evidence for them. The two are not comparable in my opinion. DP Jones has by the way still not given any indication that he sees any problem with his remarks. Fram (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well, you know, truth is a defense. This is your David Duke moment, guys. You're blowing it.
- I don't think the person should have been blocked for calling me a fascist, FWIW. This was obviously hyperbole and mere vulgar abuse because the person was pissed off. Everybody gets pissed off when fascism is involved which is one of the many reasons we don't want it here. I'm not saying the person should be here, just that in and of itself was not a good reason for a block, I wouldn't have done it for that specifically, and I don't expect to be blocked in turn on the basis of even-steven. You can if you want to. Do what you think is best for the project.
- User:Liz et al, carrying water for this person to point of calling for the blocking of people who simply point out who the guy is.... this is not good. This is is business. It is a publishing business, specifically one engaged in publishing the world' greatest and most popular encyclopedia, ever. Anything that degrades that we have to look at very carefully. We're an Enlightenment institution and Fascism is not a part of the good mix for several reasons, both practical, moral, and political.... I can't really point them out to you because you either know them or probably never will.
- Back on the merits, sheesh. Here's from User:Floquenbeam over at the RfC:
- "Once, many years ago, it was an old married couple who were causing no problems - who were just writing, helping, editing in peace - but made the mistake of saying in passing that they were sharing their account. They were immediately indef blocked, and when they said on their talk page they had been married 50 years and shared everything and didn't want separate ones, it was not looked upon as a harmless endearing quirk, instead it was explained to them in no uncertain terms that if they didn't want to get separate accounts they weren't welcome here. I suggested they just say they weren't going to share it anymore, but they didn't want to lie. They stopped editing."
- "Last week... a relatively new account (who appeared to be productive, though it wasn't my subject area) was instablocked when someone noticed the user page said it was shared... there was no "friendly template", no statement that they were free to create new accounts, just the typical "you have been blocked indefinitely..." template..."
- And of course I (this is Herostratus talking again) was blocked without warning for (mistakenly being believed to have been) sort of sharing my account (even though FWIW I was an editor of many years standing, and an admin).
- And similar for others.
- Back on the merits, sheesh. Here's from User:Floquenbeam over at the RfC:
- So... If the deal is "Well yes, but User:Doctor Papa Jones deserves special consideration because __________", I'm just curious as to what goes in the blank. If the deal is "Well, yes, but the sanctions are purely random depending on what admin comes across it and what their mood is that day", fine, and that's exactly what I'm trying to clarify at the RfC. Yeah I was acerbic with the admin who said "Not only is this not a problem, its not worth discussing and why are you bothering us?" Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe a block was not called for here. I think reasonable people can disagree about that. Other people may not believe that reasonable people can disagree about these things. Herostratus (talk) 01:52, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- First things first Fram! The statements above are personal attacks, certainly not "accurate reports of what he claimed on his user page" as you claim. You should bare in mind that none of the editors who made those remarks included any links to diffs to support their claims—and thus it's pure harassment, nothing more. You would have known this is you'd read the previous discussion. And Herostratus, comments such as "maybe a block was not called for here" are not of much use now... Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 02:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well we can't point to the original diffs because they've been erased -- either oversighted, or a combination of a page deletion and page move the amounts to an oversight. But admins can see them. You are, essentially, claiming that the secondary sources I can point to -- e.g. "It says (or said) such-and-such on his user page" are false. Fine, this is easy to settle. An admin can view them. So who is being mendacious -- you, or the secondary sources I pointed to? Somebody ought to be in a trouble because lying in an investigation is uncool. So let's find out. Herostratus (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- YES! Let's have an admin find the userpage material that proves I believe "that mainstream history of the Nazis is wrong, and that only he knows the TRUTH about his hero Hitler". This will be interesting. Frankly, I'm tired of all this and I'm not going to argue with you forever. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 13:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Herostratus, first, I'm not sure what you mean by "carrying water for this person". What I can see are some editors calling Doctor Papa Jones a "Nazi", which is a personal attack, and no diffs or evidence where Doctor Papa Jones identifies himself as a Nazi. I edit articles about Donald Trump but that doesn't make me a Trump supporter or a Republican! It is ridiculous to assume that an editor shares the political stance of the subjects of the articles they edit.
- I can see where editors have made the argument that Doctor Papa Jones didn't always have a neutral point of view and when they provided evidence of this, it resulted in a topic ban. But other editors' attacks against Doctor Papa Jones and calling him names does not make those attacks true and verifiable, I don't care how respected those editors are. I have had no contact with Doctor Papa Jones before this incident but I would make the same request for evidence when slurs like this are made, no matter who the editor was.
- It goes without saying that I am just one admin and there are admins who clearly think differently than I. That's not just true in this case but in many situation where there is conflict between editors. Liz Read! Talk! 19:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Liz, my quotes came from his deleted user page, you are perfectly capable of finding these diffs for yourself. Someone who self-identifies as a fascist far-right lover who believes that "99% of all Hitler-related documentaries, in particular those made by the BBC and ABC, is pure anti-fascist propaganda crap and should never be considered anything else" and who edits nazi-related subjects quite extensively (things like Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday or Columbus Globe for State and Industry Leaders, which needs a GA review as not meeting the GA standards by a mile); I don't see how describing him as a nazi is so amazing. Would "a nazi-fascinated fascist" (which is hard to deny, considering the above and the many other articles he made about Hitler and the people around him) be much better or different? Fram (talk) 07:52, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Firstly, Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday and Columbus Globe for State and Industry Leaders are good articles which nicely meet the GA-criteria. Secondly, there are fundamental differences in expressing yourself and your opinions on a userpage and editing mainspace articles. As I've repeatedly told you during this discussion, Fram, you will not find a single edit to any article that suggest I'm unable to neutrally edit. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 13:04, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have no interest in discussing strawmen arguments. I have indicated why I blocked you, you have not given any arguments why that block would have been wrong. Your block was not for any article edits. The articles I mentioned were only to indicate the focus of your attention, which nicely matches your earlier userpage declarations and many of the negative statements made about you by others. Fram (talk) 13:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- As Liz pointed out, it's ridiculous to assume that an editor shares the political stance of the subjects of the articles they edit. You, more than anyone, escalated this discussion by blocking me during a debate in which name-calling was commonplace. As you know, I wasn't the only editor who questioned the fruitfulness of the block. That being said, I'm done commenting here. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 14:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's hardly ridiculous when that same editor self-identified as a far-right fascist and so on, of course. If you disclose your political stance on your user page and then edit very closely associated subjects, it can not be expected that people will look at these edits and this choice of subjects and not take your own declarations into account. While evidence-based namecalling shouldn't be condoned, it is much less of a problem than evidence-free namecalling, which is what you were doing. The block was a result of this escalation you started and which you refused to retract. Fram (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Personally I find it ridiculous that some people consider it a personal attack when referring to someones self-disclosed political views in the context of their politically-biased editing. If that was the case, no POV discussion about editors contributions would ever get off the ground as any evidence would be removed under NPA. The sanctions for people editing in the American Politics area would be unenforceable as any any attempt to call out their blatant partisanship would be shouted down. "Nazi-sympathizer edits articles to be more sympathetic to Nazi's!" Big shock there. News at 11. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's hardly ridiculous when that same editor self-identified as a far-right fascist and so on, of course. If you disclose your political stance on your user page and then edit very closely associated subjects, it can not be expected that people will look at these edits and this choice of subjects and not take your own declarations into account. While evidence-based namecalling shouldn't be condoned, it is much less of a problem than evidence-free namecalling, which is what you were doing. The block was a result of this escalation you started and which you refused to retract. Fram (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- As Liz pointed out, it's ridiculous to assume that an editor shares the political stance of the subjects of the articles they edit. You, more than anyone, escalated this discussion by blocking me during a debate in which name-calling was commonplace. As you know, I wasn't the only editor who questioned the fruitfulness of the block. That being said, I'm done commenting here. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 14:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have no interest in discussing strawmen arguments. I have indicated why I blocked you, you have not given any arguments why that block would have been wrong. Your block was not for any article edits. The articles I mentioned were only to indicate the focus of your attention, which nicely matches your earlier userpage declarations and many of the negative statements made about you by others. Fram (talk) 13:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Firstly, Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday and Columbus Globe for State and Industry Leaders are good articles which nicely meet the GA-criteria. Secondly, there are fundamental differences in expressing yourself and your opinions on a userpage and editing mainspace articles. As I've repeatedly told you during this discussion, Fram, you will not find a single edit to any article that suggest I'm unable to neutrally edit. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 13:04, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Liz, my quotes came from his deleted user page, you are perfectly capable of finding these diffs for yourself. Someone who self-identifies as a fascist far-right lover who believes that "99% of all Hitler-related documentaries, in particular those made by the BBC and ABC, is pure anti-fascist propaganda crap and should never be considered anything else" and who edits nazi-related subjects quite extensively (things like Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday or Columbus Globe for State and Industry Leaders, which needs a GA review as not meeting the GA standards by a mile); I don't see how describing him as a nazi is so amazing. Would "a nazi-fascinated fascist" (which is hard to deny, considering the above and the many other articles he made about Hitler and the people around him) be much better or different? Fram (talk) 07:52, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- YES! Let's have an admin find the userpage material that proves I believe "that mainstream history of the Nazis is wrong, and that only he knows the TRUTH about his hero Hitler". This will be interesting. Frankly, I'm tired of all this and I'm not going to argue with you forever. Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 13:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well we can't point to the original diffs because they've been erased -- either oversighted, or a combination of a page deletion and page move the amounts to an oversight. But admins can see them. You are, essentially, claiming that the secondary sources I can point to -- e.g. "It says (or said) such-and-such on his user page" are false. Fine, this is easy to settle. An admin can view them. So who is being mendacious -- you, or the secondary sources I pointed to? Somebody ought to be in a trouble because lying in an investigation is uncool. So let's find out. Herostratus (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- First things first Fram! The statements above are personal attacks, certainly not "accurate reports of what he claimed on his user page" as you claim. You should bare in mind that none of the editors who made those remarks included any links to diffs to support their claims—and thus it's pure harassment, nothing more. You would have known this is you'd read the previous discussion. And Herostratus, comments such as "maybe a block was not called for here" are not of much use now... Doctor Papa Jones • (Click here to collect your prize!) 02:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- So... If the deal is "Well yes, but User:Doctor Papa Jones deserves special consideration because __________", I'm just curious as to what goes in the blank. If the deal is "Well, yes, but the sanctions are purely random depending on what admin comes across it and what their mood is that day", fine, and that's exactly what I'm trying to clarify at the RfC. Yeah I was acerbic with the admin who said "Not only is this not a problem, its not worth discussing and why are you bothering us?" Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe a block was not called for here. I think reasonable people can disagree about that. Other people may not believe that reasonable people can disagree about these things. Herostratus (talk) 01:52, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
stalker/troll
Hey folks, I'd like to bring Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bolgitalianissimano to your attention. I have a long-term personal stalker (admittedly, the guy threatened me with "an eternal stalking, for an indefinite period of time, from me at your expense"). As you can see on the sockpuppet investigations page, the troll is typically operating with proxies. His favourite pastime is, as he told me personally on de.wikipedia (by vandalising my user page), bringing me to waste time for him.
Right now, he seems to think, that his glory days have come. Just recently, I added German IPA-transcriptions to a lot of German place names, making available the additions I made in the German wikipedia a year ago [12] -> [13]. He reverted them using various proxies (66.147.244.59 (talk · contribs),138.201.7.172 (talk · contribs), 2001:1A50:11:0:5F:8F:ACFB:340 (talk · contribs), 78.47.69.35 (talk · contribs), 5.9.87.205 (talk · contribs), 212.117.173.189 (talk · contribs), 109.237.138.24 (talk · contribs),134.119.244.251 (talk · contribs)) with the "explanation" overdetermined/asymmetric. Since I know the troll's behaviour (which consists in reverting edits as often as possible, using proxy IPs, in order to bypass sanctions against his IPs or accounts like User:Onegyrol08, User:Bolgitalianissimano), my recommandation is a semi-protection of all affected pages (just check my current contributions). Since I reverted all of the unjustified deletions right now, I'd like to turn some admins' attention to the case. Thanks in advance! --Mai-Sachme (talk) 21:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Remark: The proxy troll/stalker just announced to rollback all affected pages tomorrow: [14]. A semi-protection seems unavoidable. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- That seems like quite a persistent vandal but I don't think there would be much approval to protect every article you have worked on. If you have a more limited list of targeted articles, please make a request at WP:RPP. Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Liz: Hm, not sure about how to procede here now... The vandal has already reverted me on not less than 77 (!) pages. You can see the affected articles in my user contributions between 20:56, 27 April 2016 (Adige) and 20:43, 27 April 2016 (Altrei). Since he has just announced to do exactly the same tomorrow (that is reverting 77 times), I'm not able to give you a more limited list.
- I have a suggestion: You could at least semi-protect a randomised selection of the 77 articles and see, how the troll will react. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:56, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- Could we make an edit filter to catch removal of IPA transcriptions? Katietalk 23:11, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- One option is to do a quiet WP:CLEANSTART. Let Arbcom know and the IP troll should find it a bit harder to find you. Blackmane (talk) 01:57, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- That seems like quite a persistent vandal but I don't think there would be much approval to protect every article you have worked on. If you have a more limited list of targeted articles, please make a request at WP:RPP. Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I am the accused part. After you read what I am going to write you will not have the same opinion you have now about this issue.
- About Mai-Sachme and his friend Bartleby08 both from South Tyrol. Watch Mai-Sachme's Italian talk page ([15]) and the only things you will found are: editwars, page protected from him, warnings and notices, improper use of discussions, tendentious points of view, and all about South Tyrol, notified by veteran Italian sysops such as Melos and M7. Besides, as you can see this is not the first time Mai-Sachme chooses to report a user as problematic to have him blocked unmotivatedly: an admin cloesd a discussion he started for that, and later another admin reproved his not cooperational behaviour because it was bordering on the problematic. Bartleby, instead, was even blocked for a month for SOURCE FALSIFICATION ([16]), in this case too about South Tyrol. They are not the candid souls he is pretending they are.
- About Bolgitalianissimano. It is clear that this blocked user had a quarrel with Mai-Sachme and Mai-Sachme is still rancorous. But first of all I am not him. Second, he was not blocked for issues related to Mai-Sachme or his own edits, even if I do not know the reason for the block. Third, the edits he did were not at all vandalisms, but contributions to the encyclopedia. Last but not least, I want to repeat that I_am_not_him. Maybe Mai-Sachme is really conveinced about it, maybe he is just pretending to be in order to discredit me even more.
- About the links Mai-Sachme brought here. The links about Bolgitalianissimano do not concern me. This link: if you do not speak Italian you have to trust Mai-Sachme's words, but what I said is that HE (Mai-Sachme) said that my favourite pastime is bringing him to waste time for me, and that he behaved exactly as he accused me to behave. This link and similars: here you have an example of hypocrisy, because when his comrade Bartleby08 did exactly the same edits and exaclty for the same reason but removing Italian IPAs instead of German IPAs and not once but three times, he did not report him for vandalism and supported what he had done.
- About a few links I am bringing here. In Bartleby08's discussion I wrote four times, each time speaking civilly: here to explain the situation about IPAs and thank him for (apparently) stopping removing Italian IPAs, here to tell him I would not disturb him any more, here to ask him to stop removing Italian IPAs again and accuse him not to do it for en.wikipedia's sake but for personal issues related to his geographical origins (as proven by the reason he was blocked for), here to sincerely congratulate because he chose to solve his dilemma about asymmetry by adding German IPAs where there were Italian IPAs instead of removing these.
- About my reasons to revert Mai-Sachme's edits. Not to troll or persecute him, first. As I told him, I wish this story had ended when Bartleby08 stopped removing Italian IPAs or had never begun if he did not start doing it. I have done it, once, for the following reasons. He inserted the German pronunciations only, the same thing Bartleby08 complained about when it concerned the few Italian pronunciations added by Bolgitalianissimano, but in all cities of South Tyrol, one by one, as to remark a sort of German-speaking predominance. The IPAs Mai-Sachme inserted contradict the very Help:IPA for German they link to, for example about the use of symbols such as: ̯ ˑ . The IPAs have no source, for how things are we do not know if they are standard German or local pronunciations, but in both cases there are no sources, and de.wikipedia is not a source for en.wikipedia if I well remember. Lastly, he has clearly not done it because he woke up and decided to contribute to the project, it is more likely he did it after Bartleby08's complaint and to take a sort of revenge against me, or he would not have spent almost 2:30 hours from 21:30 to midnight to insert all those IPAs, the obsessive troll is not me.
I hope that after reading all these not said truths he by chance forgot to mention your opinion about the matter would have changed. I am waiting for your reply before editing anything again. 190.14.37.133 (talk) 07:44, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Remark: It appears, as if the proxy troll (newest batch of IPs: 88.70.42.136 (talk · contribs), 5.9.43.137 (talk · contribs), 185.26.122.41 (talk · contribs)) has decided to avoid further reverts for now. Given the pending sockpuppet investigation and since his attempts to gather support for his deletion strategy brought only negative replies, I think there is a good chance, he won't continue with his mass rollbacks. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Remark: It appears as if the Italian germanophile separatist troll who accuses other Italian countrymen of being trolls (as proven by several sysops in his Italian personal talk page, it is not me saying it) is becoming conscious of not having been able to obtain a victory against the one he identifies as his archenemy. And the one he identifies as his archenemy (me, even if he has got the wrong person) is going to tell him one more thing: there is no way a troll from South Tyrol reproved by Italian sysops for trolling in articles about South Tyrol is going to gain an even trivial kind of anti-Italian vengeance here where Italian admins have no power nor interest, because I can simply add Italian IPAs to each article where you added the German IPA only. And you will not be able to accuse me of trolling or vandalising or anything bad at all. The only way you could avoid this and give yourself a sop is finding a city of South Tyrol which has only a German but no Italian pronunciation. Unluckily, there is no city in Alto Adige without an Italian name, since... They are all Italian. And you are Italian. As the source falsifier Bartleby08. And feeling accomplished in your wish of indepencence from the Italian Republic by vandalising a free on-line encyclopedia in English is very sad. But this is only my personal opinion, you clearly see it differently. That is all. 190.14.37.133 (talk) 18:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Having said that, he continues to stalk and revert me elsewhere... please note his deletions of my remarks on User:LiliCharlie's and User:Martin sv 85's talk pages: [17], [18]. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 18:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
We Italians use this expression to refer to people like Mai-Sachme: "avere la faccia come il..." ("having one's face like one's..."). "WHO" is stalking "WHOM"? Mai-Sachme himself searched those messages in those talks, am I wrong? And after finding them he joined, or am I being wrong? So, again: "WHO" is stalking "WHOM"? This is the typical situation when Italians use that expression above. 190.14.37.133 (talk) 18:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Q.E.D. I did not remove for the second time the German IPAs, unlike Mai-Sachme's friend Bartleby08 did with Italian IPAs 3 times, I just added sourced Italian IPAs respecting the Help:IPA for Italian standards; as far as I am concerned, I have nothing else to add, and everybody is free to watch over those pages to monitor that I will not make removals again, even better, I do invite you admins to watch over those pages as I will do because we have no way to be sure that either Bartleby08 or Mai-Sachme will not remove any IPA again, while my personal stalker is free to keep spending his time searching for editors he will identify as me (or the other Italian user who is not me, I have not understood yet whether he says it on purpose or he is really convinced about it, but it does not matter to me). 190.14.37.133 (talk) 17:36, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Someone needs a nap
I am thinking that range-blocking - at least for a while - might be called for. After User:TJH2018a was indef blocked for impersonating TJH2018 and harassing another user, I let them know that their block was pretty darn justified. In retrospect, WP:DFT should have guided me, but cie la vie. The curious little guy then threatened me on his page and then vandalized my page. From the type of vandalism, I am guessing it's a kid (bc who else would think that a WikiCommons picture of a flaccid penis is actually insulting). With that in mind, I'd like to propose a range block for the summer; maybe they will find something shiny and be occupied with that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- From that one edit, it appears it could be a sock of Nolantron as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- That seemed apparent to me. What led me to the idea of range-blocking was the apparent interest in disrupting the 'pedia, so I say keep them out for a while. Since it is most likely a kid, they are gearing up for Summer Break. Idle hands and all that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jack Sebastian, did you ping me telepathically? Cause I do need a nap. Drmies (talk) 17:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Please do something about this guy, he is ruining my quiet evening with his vandalism including... pictures...-- Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- And he did it again this time on my usertalk.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:16, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's a lot of penis. I blocked the IP, but I don't do range blocks (note that it wasn't a range of penises--it was just one, multiplied, in an act of narcissistic, penile overdetermination). I'm sorry it ruined your quiet evening; it also kind of ruined my happy thoughts about napping. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Did they teach you the phrase 'penile overdetermination' in med school?
Katietalk 17:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Troll is still dicking around those two talk pages. I requested protection at RFPP but it's backlogged. Will one of you admins consider skipping the queue on this one? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I see what you did there. = Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Spoke too soon, Widr is on it. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Might need to go to the talk page archives too as the vandal is hitting those as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:41, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Not my area of expertise, but can the file be deleted? It's not in use anywhere except for when this troll edits. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The file is on commons, so good luck with that .... We could completely disable the image here by uploading something else as a local copy, but it's already been added to the MediaWiki:Bad image list [19] so I don't think that's necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe I was a little unfair, the most relevant pages are probably Commons:Commons:Nudity, Commons:COM:PORN and Commons:Template:Nopenis which does suggest recent low quality images will generally be delete. What counts as low quality I'm not sure but the image does have little info which would be a concern. Anyway that would need to be dealt with at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests. Nil Einne (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well I've nominated it for deletion, so we shall see what happens. Of course the wider issue is that even if it is deleted, there are plenty more (we have the same issue with the bad image list, with the minor advantage that I think adding images to it is easier than deleting them on commons). Nil Einne (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: Yeah, we all know there are not enough flaccid penisse in the world to satisfy Common's desire for them.--v/r - TP 19:32, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe I was a little unfair, the most relevant pages are probably Commons:Commons:Nudity, Commons:COM:PORN and Commons:Template:Nopenis which does suggest recent low quality images will generally be delete. What counts as low quality I'm not sure but the image does have little info which would be a concern. Anyway that would need to be dealt with at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests. Nil Einne (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The file is on commons, so good luck with that .... We could completely disable the image here by uploading something else as a local copy, but it's already been added to the MediaWiki:Bad image list [19] so I don't think that's necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Not my area of expertise, but can the file be deleted? It's not in use anywhere except for when this troll edits. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Might need to go to the talk page archives too as the vandal is hitting those as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:41, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Alright, I'm here. Basically, the only way to combat this thing is to put the images on the MediaWiki list, and put in for an SPI. I took the liberty of creating a User:TJH2018b and User:TJH2018c, so hopefully that will discourage him for a while. If you take a look at my talk page, you'll see that some guy was complaining about him. But that's the gist. Nothing else we can do besides that. TJH2018talk 21:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the assistance; I'm sure the blocked user will eventually get tired of getting cock-blocked. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- @@Jack Sebastian: He doesn't stop. It may seem like he's gone, but he'll be back. TJH2018talk 22:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Can we revisit the idea of rangeblocking? Even the IP troll dared us to make a rangeblock. Unfortunately, in my Orientation to Adminship they didn't cover rangeblocks so is there another admin who can look into this? These taunts and trolling have been going on for weeks now. Liz Read! Talk! 00:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Looks like
24.114.50.0/18 would cover it, but I'd need to confirm any crossfire or additional IPs it would miss. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 00:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC) - Nope, too many good edits from that range it seems. *sigh* -- The Voidwalker Discuss 00:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think I got it:
24.114.100.0/21; 24.114.60/19; 24.114.45/20
I omitted the range around 24.114.99.0 since I saw recent good edits from around there. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 00:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)- This situation has been going on for quite some time now. I (and basically anyone who has come to my assistance) have received personal attacks, vandalism, said unsavoury pictures, ETC, since as early as February 2016, and it's about to be May. There are brief periods of time where it seems like the user has stopped, but he quickly returns. Every time one of his IPs or accounts is blocked, the user finds a new one almost immediately.
- The user shows no signs of any endgame. Quite the opposite, in fact. The user's vandalism is getting worse. He is now impersonating other users ([20]). This probably will go on for as long as it's allowed. At this point, I think more extreme measures need to be taken. DarkKnight2149 00:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Looks like
- Can we revisit the idea of rangeblocking? Even the IP troll dared us to make a rangeblock. Unfortunately, in my Orientation to Adminship they didn't cover rangeblocks so is there another admin who can look into this? These taunts and trolling have been going on for weeks now. Liz Read! Talk! 00:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- @@Jack Sebastian: He doesn't stop. It may seem like he's gone, but he'll be back. TJH2018talk 22:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
It looks as if the selected range block isn't working: 1
- On a side note, is there a way to check to see what doppleganger accounts I already have in place? It's been years since i started my account (and several dissatisfied customers, hence the dopps). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Can we taboo the name? Make it go away? -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I did not know that this was even possible. What an exceptionally useful too (in the right hands). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Considering how everyone else has left this behind, I'll wait for the block to expire before posting at WP:EFR, or sooner if there is a good need for it. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 00:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Well the nap didn't work
In the overnight, the same anon popped up with a new IP and had more sparkling commentary to make on my page (1, 2, 3, 4) and Darkknight2149 (1). I only know about DK, because his page is on my watchlist; I am sure that others are also affected by this Canucklehead's behavior. This kid has managed to evade the somewhat ineffective range block set in place. Really, I don't mind the vandalism (especially when some really awesome patrollers catch it before I even log on for the day), but with the open SPI regarding the user (seen here), it would seem prudent to extend the range block in order to lower the noise/sound ratio. Maybe a community ban is more in order - washing our hands of the kid, so to speak. Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:12, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- He left a complaint on my talk page this morning[21]. :) Meanwhile I'm looking at another avenue. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, and Coffee blocked the 24.114.x.x range for one week while I put that image on the naughty list.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- That challenge seems quite unrepentant, doesn't he? I think that, in blocking the range of IPs to keep him out, we point out to the good users that his specific behavior caused the block. Let the locals there sort him out but good. Short of that wishful thinking, perhaps its time to assemble the ban hammer? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, he is de facto banned anyway. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Clearly, the user doesn't think so, and continues to promise further retribution. He's a legend in his own mind, but still an annoying one. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Would a community ban be viable, or is it unnecessary? I'd be willing to author one, if you want. I think I've had my fair share of experiences with this...--TJH2018talk 17:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What would a ban do that we're not doing already (RBI)? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Dunno, but at least we know the (seemingly) anon user is watching the conversation. And, apparently, needs something of a love life. Trolling here might be his equivalent of spanking it.However you guys want to handle it is fine with me. Clearly, I'd like the semi-prot template to remain on my user and talk pages for unregistered users until further notice. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:36, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What would a ban do that we're not doing already (RBI)? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Would a community ban be viable, or is it unnecessary? I'd be willing to author one, if you want. I think I've had my fair share of experiences with this...--TJH2018talk 17:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Clearly, the user doesn't think so, and continues to promise further retribution. He's a legend in his own mind, but still an annoying one. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, he is de facto banned anyway. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- That challenge seems quite unrepentant, doesn't he? I think that, in blocking the range of IPs to keep him out, we point out to the good users that his specific behavior caused the block. Let the locals there sort him out but good. Short of that wishful thinking, perhaps its time to assemble the ban hammer? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, and Coffee blocked the 24.114.x.x range for one week while I put that image on the naughty list.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Clarification please: DrChrissy and human anatomy edits
Clarification requested please, with this DrChrissy was Tbanned from "human medical articles and WP:MEDRS related discussions (in accordance with the previous close, and to reduce the possibility of conflict with the same group of users)." The entry at WP:RESTRICT says "DrChrissy is also topic banned from human health and medicine, and WP:MEDRS related discussions, broadly construed." DrChrissy has made edits to articles clearly focused on human anatomy, like [22][23]. This led to this conversation on DrChrissy's User Talk, where it became apparent that there's a bit of open ambiguity as to whether editing human anatomy topic falls under "human medicine... broadly construed". Could we get some clarification please? I am not looking for any further sanctions here, just clarity, as this is apparently good-faith disagreement. Zad68
2:18 pm, Today (UTC−4)
- Human anatomy is not in and of itself health related. For example, as an artist I study and work with human anatomy all of the time and my work has nothing to do with health. There may be aspects of articles on human anatomy that relate to health or medicine, and human health obviously references the human being and his or her anatomy. but in and of itself no, not a health related area or areas.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2016 (UTC))
- The particular disagreement we were having was whether human anatomy is part of "human medicine". To me it clearly is, it's a foundational element of medicine, and clearly would be included in the Tban when "broadly construed." To DrChrissy it isn't... thanks for your input.
Zad68
18:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The particular disagreement we were having was whether human anatomy is part of "human medicine". To me it clearly is, it's a foundational element of medicine, and clearly would be included in the Tban when "broadly construed." To DrChrissy it isn't... thanks for your input.
- The subject matter of the article is anatomy - to describe a normal human penis. There are other penis-related articles which are medically oriented such as Micropenis, Penile cancer and Penile fracture which I have not, and would not, edit. Zad68 directed me to Medicine#Basic sciences to support their argument. Please note that along with Anatomy, this list also includes sciences such as Histology, Biophysics and Cytology. As with anatomy, these all have large areas of study completely unrelated to health and medicine. Please remember that our Medicine article states "Medicine... is the science and practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease." and our Anatomy article states “Anatomy is the branch of biology concerned with the study of the structure of organisms and their parts”. Whilst they are not mutually exclusive, they are very clearly, different. DrChrissy (talk) 18:52, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think the important line on the topic ban here is "human health" (especially when "broadly construed"). Even though there are some non-health related aspects to the human anatomy, as suggested above, I think the two areas are so interconnected that the ban would apply. Brianga (talk) 19:02, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Brianga, do you think the ban applies to Beard, Hair, Earlobe, Moustache...? DrChrissy (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I must say, this does look like a continued exercise in boundary-testing. Aren't there enough topics to edit which don't overlap with human health, broadly construed? And why did you even think to edit Quackery? Alexbrn (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You critically forget to mention that I immediately self-reverted. Let's play nicely here. DrChrissy (talk) 19:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You didn't "immediately self-revert"; you struck your comments after being reminded of your TBAN. More boundary testing? Alexbrn (talk) 19:50, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just what point are you trying to make here? You are not even commenting on the subject of this thread. You are clearly trying to poison the well by bringing mistakes I made on another page to this one. Please desist. DrChrissy (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that it seems there is a wider pattern whereby you keep pushing your luck and wasting everybody's time in the process. Hasn't this come up at AE (and AN/I) before? Alexbrn (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is you that is wasting everybody's time with these spurious accusations. This thread is about whether Human penis is an anatomy article or a medical article. Please stick to the subject. DrChrissy (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's a false dichotomy to say "anatomy article or medical article", as if they were separate topics. The question is whether human anatomy should be considered to fall under "human health and medicine ... broadly construed".
Zad68
20:52, 28 April 2016 (UTC)- It is your opinion that it is a false dichotomy. You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. Medicine is about a process - largely, treating disease. The article Human penis is about a lump of flesh that hangs off the front of men. It is not about disease. DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- No its not Zad. I would disagree strongly. I use human anatomy in both art and dance, but none of what I am doing has to do with health. Human health is a possible subset of human anatomy, as is the knowledge of human anatomy to draw the human figure, and understanding of the anatomy to analyze a skill for example, a jump or turn. To deal with this issue we must clarify both the master topic area and the subsets and then determine which if not all or some fall under "health related". If this is truly a clarification then personal attacks only derail the discussion and delay clarification. This is a larger issue than one editor's ban and probably deserves greater community input. No one's opinion on this can be definitive, and we should have an understanding that all editor's can refer to .(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC))
- It is your opinion that it is a false dichotomy. You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. Medicine is about a process - largely, treating disease. The article Human penis is about a lump of flesh that hangs off the front of men. It is not about disease. DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's a false dichotomy to say "anatomy article or medical article", as if they were separate topics. The question is whether human anatomy should be considered to fall under "human health and medicine ... broadly construed".
- It is you that is wasting everybody's time with these spurious accusations. This thread is about whether Human penis is an anatomy article or a medical article. Please stick to the subject. DrChrissy (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that it seems there is a wider pattern whereby you keep pushing your luck and wasting everybody's time in the process. Hasn't this come up at AE (and AN/I) before? Alexbrn (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just what point are you trying to make here? You are not even commenting on the subject of this thread. You are clearly trying to poison the well by bringing mistakes I made on another page to this one. Please desist. DrChrissy (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You didn't "immediately self-revert"; you struck your comments after being reminded of your TBAN. More boundary testing? Alexbrn (talk) 19:50, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- You critically forget to mention that I immediately self-reverted. Let's play nicely here. DrChrissy (talk) 19:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- That isn't the question here, is it? I would say, "maybe" - for hair, it would apply if you are editing about lice, but not a crewcut. But I'm loathe to give an advisory opinion and think we should stick to the issues at hand. Brianga (talk) 19:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- But this is the issue at hand. Zad68 is asking whether I should edit the Human penis page at all, not about the particular edits I made. Contrary to what you think, I can edit about lice at that page, but not on matters relating to human health. I would argue that I should not edit crewcut because that is a fashion and relates to human mental health. This is why topic bans are so stupid. DrChrissy (talk) 19:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is just my personal opinion based on university classes in biology but I don't think anatomy (and the general area of human biology) necessarily involves health or medicine. I took courses in anatomy and physiology and they had nothing to do with medical treatment or health issues. I think you have to look at the content of the edits, not merely the article title. Liz Read! Talk! 21:24, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for this Liz - I totally agree. For many months now, I have edited animal behaviour and animal welfare articles such as Dog meat where there are (totally unfounded) claims of medical benefits. I have steered wide of making any edits to such material. I am not testing the Ban, I am trying very hard to adhere to this, even though it is sometimes to the detriment of articles. I am perfectly happy to discuss my edits at Human penis as to whether they are medical or not, but I would like to suggest this waits until we get consensus on the OP's clarification request. DrChrissy (talk) 21:41, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is just my personal opinion based on university classes in biology but I don't think anatomy (and the general area of human biology) necessarily involves health or medicine. I took courses in anatomy and physiology and they had nothing to do with medical treatment or health issues. I think you have to look at the content of the edits, not merely the article title. Liz Read! Talk! 21:24, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- But this is the issue at hand. Zad68 is asking whether I should edit the Human penis page at all, not about the particular edits I made. Contrary to what you think, I can edit about lice at that page, but not on matters relating to human health. I would argue that I should not edit crewcut because that is a fashion and relates to human mental health. This is why topic bans are so stupid. DrChrissy (talk) 19:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I must say, this does look like a continued exercise in boundary-testing. Aren't there enough topics to edit which don't overlap with human health, broadly construed? And why did you even think to edit Quackery? Alexbrn (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Brianga, do you think the ban applies to Beard, Hair, Earlobe, Moustache...? DrChrissy (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
I understand the concern about boundary testing, particularly after the recent edit to Talk:Quackery, but personally I really don't see edits to articles on human anatomy with no health or medical aspects covered by the topic ban. I'm surprising myself a little here, because in the past I've been critical of DrChrissy's boundary testing, but I don't think that's what's happening here. And I think it's well on this side of the boundary anyway. I guess it's easier to make health or medical-related edits to anatomical articles, and I imagine admins (including me) won't be terribly forgiving if "accidental" health or medical-related edits are made on this type of article. So DrChirssy should exercise extreme caution. And, DrChirssy, the idea of topic bans is not stupid, it's just an understandable problem in execution; if you make them narrowly defined, then someone will always find loophole upon loophole. If you make them broadly defined, then almost by definiton the boundary is poorly defined. Better would be not editing in a way that required inherently imperfect topic bans to be imposed in the first place. But in this particular case, I don't see a topic ban violation. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I guess I'm a little late to the cockfight here, but I agree entirely with Liz and Floquenbeam. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- As do I. Katietalk 01:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- That raises an interesting question, which I don't know the answer to. Is the "topic" by article, or by edit? In other words, can one edit any article so long as it doesn't implicate the topic at issue; or must one avoid each and every article that involves the topic? Somewhere in the middle? Brianga (talk) 04:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Its a topic ban, so any edits related to the topic are subject to it. Not pages. The key bit is 'broadly construed' - with some articles the subject matter is linked to the topic in such a way that any edits should be avoided. 2 years ago you could have happily made edits to Donald Trump while being banned from American Politics, now it would be incredibly unwise to even attempt it lest accusations of partisan editing come into play. Likewise someone banned from medical articles and human health should *not* be editing articles on human anatomy. Its deliberate boundary pushing and usually gets frowned upon at AE. The main problem with topic bans is that unless they are explicitly broad enough, people subject to them *always* attempt to keep editing in the same area and poking around the edges. Taking anatomy - someone who is making edits regarding human anatomy/physiology in the context of say artistic depiction, would not be falling foul of a human health topic ban. Someone who is making edits in a section about reproductive success, that certainly *is* a health issue, albeit the edits were correcting US-UK English spelling variants. Which is another *amazingly* silly thing to do, if the article is even remotely ambiguous as to if you are topic banned from it or not, you dont go in and dick around (ha) with UK/US spelling. It makes no substantial difference to the article and if it needs to be done, can be done by someone who is not banned at all from the area. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
What a surprise, topic banned person decides to be edgy and edit in a gray area because they know that there will, at worst, be some giant multi page bureaucrating hair-splitting discussion on ANI before anything happens to them. Why isn't this person banned yet? I blame society. Here's a lil tip: widely construed means WIDELY CONSTRUED. Instead of editing medical articles, go copyedit articles about creeks or anime or something. Jtrainor (talk) 23:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, I have been spending most of my time on WP copyediting animal welfare articles and creating new articles. You might like to take a look at Theory of mind in animals and Kype (anatomy) which I created during the last few days. Happy editing. DrChrissy (talk) 00:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Potential legal threats at Lennart Poettering
Do this, this and this, which all come from the same IP range, seem to collectively count as legal threats, aside from being clearly WP:DISRUPTIVE unjustified massive blanking? LjL (talk) 19:59, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see it, and considering that this is a BLP we should look at the claims carefully. Drmies (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The first two qualify, the third is merely a personal attack. Suggest semi-protecting the article to fend off the IP's, and not restoring the material until it can be thoroughly reviewed (as Drmeis said). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ha, I just semi-protected it for a good long while--there's plenty of disruption in the history. Thanks Bugs. The disputed section, I trimmed it a bit, but it's decently sourced and hardly libelous or harassy. In other words, the IP needs to stop complaining. I do invite other editors to have another look at that section. Drmies (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jolly good. I have to say, those "controversies" are something only a dedicated computer geek would likely care about. And I don't see anything that looks libelous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- Content discussion, but, since we're here and it's being touched upon, I'll quickly mention it here: why do you think this one definitely needs secondary sourcing, Drmies? I reviewed WP:BLPPRIMARY and the subsequent couple of sections in that policy, and since this is material created directly by the subject (unless we have doubts about the authenticity of the interview transcript) and meets the conditions laid out by WP:BLPSELFPUB, I reckon it should be acceptable. LjL (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's in a section called "controversies". It therefore surely needs at least one probably more reliable secondary sources to establish it was a controversy and a significant one at that. I.E. one that enough people cared about to get a write up of the controversy in reliable secondary source. Even if the person described what they were saying as controversial or claimed they received a lot of negative feedback or whatever, we shouldn't be including it if no one cared enough about it to write it up in a reliable secondary source. In the absence of that, even if there's merit to include it in the article, it definitely shouldn't be in a controversy section. (And I always question the inclusion of personal viewpoints without reliable secondary source, why is this particular view significant compared to the many others the person has made public?) Ultimately, if something had no coverage in reliable secondary sources, it seems unlikely it's sufficiently significant to be something we should mention in the biography of the person. Obviously BLPSELFPUB says it's okay sometimes, but IMO that should be restricted to very limited fleshing out of existing viewpoints, or basic biographical details which we can find a RSS for but there is merit to include in the article. Nil Einne (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I hope the semi can be lifted at some reasonable point. Those diffs come from just 2 addresses. There were other problems further back (several revdels a couple months ago) but semi is supposed to be for more intense issues than that. Baseball Bugs is right that it's mostly computer geeks who care about Poettering's controversies, but Poettering's entire notability is with those same geeks, so the controversies are closely entangled with the main things he is known for. He's also been subject to tons of flak, death threats, etc. so I understand the need to handle his biography carefully. The article in its current state is actually not very informative either about Poeterring's work or the software community's reaction to it. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 04:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ha, I just semi-protected it for a good long while--there's plenty of disruption in the history. Thanks Bugs. The disputed section, I trimmed it a bit, but it's decently sourced and hardly libelous or harassy. In other words, the IP needs to stop complaining. I do invite other editors to have another look at that section. Drmies (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Conflict between myself and WilliamJE
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi, AN/I. I've been in conflict with another user, and I'm rather afraid that I've seriously lost my temper. Anyone examining my recent edit history will find quite a number of breaches of WP:CIVIL, and I'll accept any knocks I've got coming for that. My only defence is that in ten years on-wiki this is the first time I've done it. I have a very long history of editing in conflict-rich areas without losing my rag, but this has finally done it. As well as examining my own behaviour, I'd also be grateful if AN/I could determine whether (as I maintain) WilliamJE is on a MOS-related crusade that is causing needless conflict, and give him advice on the number of reverts it's appropriate to make in a 24-hour period.—S Marshall T/C 23:07, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- S Marshall, in 10 years you've never had an outburst, and then that happened. Is there something else happening in your life right now that may be causing stress? Because, I just don't see how that issue escalated so quickly for you. WilliamJE's first removal of content was a bold edit, not a revert. The material he removed has existed for years. Calling it a revert would be calling every edit that changes or removes content a revert. If that were the case, only edits that add material could be defined as not-reverts. It seems to me, that WilliamJE is at 3 reverts. And your threat to wait 3 days and then make your change does look a lot like gaming the system. I just don't see any way in this that you come out looking well. I hope my outside opinion helps.--v/r - TP 23:22, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have been looking at the Compulsory purchase in England and Wales article and I am a little mystified as to why S Marshall has self reported. I can see several prophanities (which I dislike but they are certainly not actionable). Am I missing something here. S Marshall, can I rather bizarrely remind you that postings here are supposed to be supported by diffs. Where have you violated WP:Civility? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrChrissy (talk • contribs) 23:42, 28 April 2016 DrChrissy (talk) 23:59, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- S Marshall has, on infrequent occasion, fallen through cantankery into outburst at another who has irked him. It is not terribly out of character, but a particular characteristic of a usually thoughtful and kind person who swims in difficult places. He has not lost his temper, but instead caught himself. If William can ride above this, and carry on, and all parties try to maintain civility, then all is well.
- On WilliamJE, since this is a backhand request to investigate him... True, anyone connected with the MOS should be viewed with suspicion. I also note that I dislike his recent signature, I think it is a clever reference to something, but too clever for me. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- TParis is referring to another recent incident in which I lost my temper but without, I feel, breaching WP:CIVIL. From my point of view, the circumstances in that case were:- (1) An editor had removed a paragraph from child grooming about the motives of sexual predators. This paragraph was easily verifiable and anyone could have verified it with a thirty-second search on google, but it did not actually have an inline reference at the time. It was also an important part of the meaning of the article. (2) I was pinged. I came to the article talk page and posted a source for the paragraph. (3) A different editor started a conversation on WP:V about whether to adapt WP:BURDEN to stop this happening again. Editors concerned about child protection felt that WP:BURDEN should be modified to require editors to take some responsibility for their removals and to say that finding sources is everyone's job. (4) Others including TParis felt that WP:BURDEN should empower anyone to remove anything they disagreed with if it didn't have an inline reference to a source. (5) The consensus having gone with TParis' side of the argument, I collapsed the discussion with an abrupt note. I think TParis was wrong, and I think this decision was important and the outcome was detrimental to the encyclopaedia. I still hope he will reconsider and I don't think Wikipedia takes child protection anywhere near importantly enough. The crucial differences are (a) that I was able to maintain a sense of perspective and converse with TParis civilly on my talk page immediately afterwards, and (b) child protection is a bit more important than removing redlinks, so some heated debate about it is to be expected.
In the more recent case none of these things were true. An editor came to an article I had started, and therefore watchlisted (because creating content on Wikipedia means you're sentenced to defend it for life). He removed a cluster of redlinks. Nobody disagrees that these redlinks are appropriate and justified for the article; the problem is that they did not comply with the manual of style because they appear in the "see also" section. I reverted, and we went back and forth, him removing the same content four times in succession. I left it after the third revert and went to the edit-warring noticeboard, where Ymblanter responded by protecting the page.
The outcome is of course going to be that I put the appropriate and necessary redlinks back in, because it's a cinch that WilliamJE isn't going to, but I have to do so above the "See also" section of the article. This kind of thing has always made my blood boil and I started spitting profanities.
In response to TParis' question, no, there's nothing difficult going on in my life at all; I'm a boringly domestic man with a stable home life, a supportive wife and adult son, I'm in stable gainful employment which is not more than usually stressful, and everyone I know is healthy. It's editor behaviour making me see red.—S Marshall T/C 11:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'll address a few things.
- S Marshall still can't file a proper ANI with differentials to back up his claims
- He's claimed the redlinks are important but has yet to say why.
- S Marshall falsely claims 'Nobody disagrees that these redlinks are appropriate'. He forgets this edit[24] and this one[[25]] not done by me.
- The issue of an editor putting redlinks into law articles was discussed last December. Click here[26] and here[27]. That editor was told to stop doing so. Just in case I'll ping the two administrators, Ed Johnston (talk · contribs) and Sphilbrick (talk · contribs) after I finish this post. S_Marshall was told about this discussion by me on his talk page[28]. His response to that and what WP:Seealso says about redlinks- Don't care[29].
- S_Marshall yet again insinuates that he is going to put the links back into the article but in another section when T Paris that might be considered gaming the system. In fact he has done that already at another article just yesterday. Click here[30] and here[31].
- SmokeyJoe (talk · contribs) My signature refers to a saying my late maternal grandfather used to use all the time. "The complaint department is on the roof."
- The consensus is no redlinks in see also sections. It is up to S Marshall or any other editor who disagrees to get the community to change their mind....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Could you clarify this for me please, WilliamJE? Are you saying that the redlinks you removed from Compulsory purchase in England and Wales should not appear anywhere in the article?—S Marshall T/C 12:21, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'll address a few things.
- As I was involved in a couple of edits, I will just say just a few things:
- 1) S Marshall may have gotten a little cranky, but there is no reason for any action to be taken here. He clearly wants to improve the project, and nothing he said or did warrants sanction.
- 2) We do have a Manual of Style for a reason, and while exceptions can and should be made, there should be a reason for those exceptions.
- 3) As for the redlinks, they should not be indiscriminately removed. They just don't belong in a "see also" section, as there is nothing to see. Putting them in the body of the article is less problematic, but the person who inserts them should consider starting the article themselves. If they are unwilling, then they should not do it.
- Scr★pIronIV 12:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just with reference to your point #3:- You say redlinks shouldn't be indiscriminately removed but don't belong in a see also section. Would you agree with me, then, that an editor removing redlinks from a see also section should put them back in in another section before moving on? Or do you feel it's more appropriate behaviour for WilliamJE to bring the article into compliance with the manual of style and then leave the content creators to do the cleanup?—S Marshall T/C 12:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, I would not agree with that. If the article is redlinked and is not mentioned in the body of the article, then its relationship to the article's subject is unknown. The editor who wished to add the link to the article would be the one who knows why they added it, and it should be incumbent upon them to refactor the article if they wish it to be retained. But that is just my opinion. Thank goodness for seeking consensus Scr★pIronIV 13:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Scr★pIronIV 12:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
What a fascinating thread. I've seen plenty of people accidentally shoot themselves in the foot before on this page. I don't think I've seen anyone deliberately try to shoot themselves in the foot and manage to miss. Anyway, there seems to be a consensus that no admin action is required - I suggest the discussion about redlinks continues elsewhere. WaggersTALK 13:15, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- In terms of admin action, it would be nice if the article could be unprotected to enable me to do all the work WilliamJE's edits have caused me?—S Marshall T/C 15:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Request for RevDel
I don't know whether it was directed toward another editor or the subject of a BLP, but evidently calling somebody a "(Redacted)" and a member of "(Redacted)" is not considered sufficiently libelous to spur Oversight into action. Hopefully an administrator will step in and do what Oversight refuses to do. (Redacted) Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:15, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Done.--v/r - TP 06:23, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just out of interest, @Malik Shabazz: did you actually contact oversighters and did they actually refuse to redact those comments? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Would you like me to forward the e-mail message, from an anonymous member of the English Wikipedia Oversight team, to you? — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 10:16, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Common enough really, from my experience with them the best option is to wait 30 minutes and try again. You usually get a different response from a different person. Its a combination of the oversight team's lack of oversight/quality control, and all wikipedia's policies being open to individual interpretation. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:20, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Malik Shabazz: Oh, not at all, no, I don't doubt you. I meant it as a genuine enquiry, and I'm disappointed that you got that response from them. Even if they thought oversight was not warranted, then I would have hoped they'd at least rev-del instead - I certainly would have. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Would you like me to forward the e-mail message, from an anonymous member of the English Wikipedia Oversight team, to you? — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 10:16, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Only about 1300 editors who have earned the trust of the community via Rfa can see rev-del'd stuff, so it really the right way to go for most inappropriate material. In my experience #wikipedia-en-revdel connect works well. I've found Oversight responsive primarily for privacy violations, and it is in the best of interest of the community if oversight actions are limited to what is necessary, as so few editors can review the actions of oversighters. NE Ent
- Right, but even if an oversighter disagreed that oversight should be used, they still have the tools for a revdel.--v/r - TP 00:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Absolutely. To be honest, I was more than a little shocked that the
shitheadindividual who replied to me could have looked at the edit in question and written, presumably with a straight face, "If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard." According to Special:ListUsers/oversight, every one of the Oversighters has administrative tools, so whoever it was, they were just being an asshole about it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)- Did the response you got look like a template? Previously, when I have had a declined oversight request, I got a personalised message specific to the circumstance. "If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard" sounds to me like something an oversighter might reflexively fire off without thinking too carefully about its contents (much the same way as some template warnings for vandalism). BethNaught (talk) 15:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it was almost certainly a template:
- We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. Unfortunately, the edits associated with your request cannot be suppressed under our policy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight>. If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Noticeboards>). Thank you for sharing your concerns and please contact us again if you have any in the future.
- If the Oversighter who was monitoring the mailbox couldn't be arsed to look at the diffs I sent—which were sufficiently egregious that they've been scrubbed from this page's history as well as the original's—they shouldn't have replied at all. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it was almost certainly a template:
- Did the response you got look like a template? Previously, when I have had a declined oversight request, I got a personalised message specific to the circumstance. "If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard" sounds to me like something an oversighter might reflexively fire off without thinking too carefully about its contents (much the same way as some template warnings for vandalism). BethNaught (talk) 15:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Absolutely. To be honest, I was more than a little shocked that the
If oversighters rev-del'd revdelable but not oversightable material, over time editors would naturally migrate to sending all redactable material to oversight, shifting the rev-del work from 855 administrators who are not oversighters to 0 oversighters. This is not a reasonable division of unpaid volunteer time. NE Ent 22:06, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- You're right. It's much better to leave libelous material in Wikipedia.
- Here's a suggestion (one that I made a month ago at WT:REVDEL): Why not make it as easy to request RevDel as it is to request Oversight? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:11, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) He's right you know. There's #wikipedia-en-revdel connect (which I've often used), but that's about all I know off the top of my head, besides contacting individual admins. Looking it over though, that's all there is. There should be a better way. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 17:24, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, I have found WP:Oversight very responsive to e-mails and RevDel requests. They always take care of the problem. I have also found that involving individual WP:Admins directly works. Of course, it may just be the subject matter of what I send them. YMMV. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:18, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- As an administrator who is willing to deal with RevDel requests, I am also frustrated that there isn't an easier way. I have had no more than half a dozen direct requests. I would lurk on IRC, but there it is difficult to protect one's privacy: to hide your IP address, you have to register a "cloak" with the channel operators, and even that can be overcome. Not to mention, you have to learn how to use a system which is too complex in proportion for the tasks in hand. I would love it if there were an OTRS-powered mailing list such as the oversight one. About a secret admin cabal being established on such a list: attempts like that might happen, but OTRS does leak and with >1000 sysops having access, I'm sure someone would blow the whistle. BethNaught (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- The related problem is the Streisand effect, particularly when it comes to WP:BLP and WP:Defamation issues. So using e-mail to oversight works. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Or email an administrator. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- The related problem is the Streisand effect, particularly when it comes to WP:BLP and WP:Defamation issues. So using e-mail to oversight works. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- As an administrator who is willing to deal with RevDel requests, I am also frustrated that there isn't an easier way. I have had no more than half a dozen direct requests. I would lurk on IRC, but there it is difficult to protect one's privacy: to hide your IP address, you have to register a "cloak" with the channel operators, and even that can be overcome. Not to mention, you have to learn how to use a system which is too complex in proportion for the tasks in hand. I would love it if there were an OTRS-powered mailing list such as the oversight one. About a secret admin cabal being established on such a list: attempts like that might happen, but OTRS does leak and with >1000 sysops having access, I'm sure someone would blow the whistle. BethNaught (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Mass account creation attempts
Dear Administrators,
Over the last few days, I have observed in the edit filter log recurring strings of filter log entries which I have screencaptured here: [32]. From what I can see, the sleeper account throttle is blocking the creation of accounts in rapid succession, under usernames which follow the same pattern. Could this be an automated script creating accounts? If so, are these spambots?
Thankyou, Passengerpigeon (talk) 09:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Looks like a spambot based on the username pattern. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- They don't show up on the logs though, nor are they registered at all. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's because username creation requests are throttled to so many per hour (I think it's six) without need for a filter. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 16:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- From what I understand, it's 6 accounts in a 24 hour period. I've run into this limit several times in my work on ACC . ~ Matthewrbowker Drop me a note 20:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Assuming those times were in UTC, I'm not seeing any successful creations around the same time with a similar username pattern [33] Maybe the successful creations were earlier, unfortunately 24 hours is a lot of usernames and even assuming
76 were created more or less in a row, you'd still need to look carefully to spot those ones despite the obvious pattern to the human eye. Nil Einne (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2016 (UTC)- Looking at [34] confirms it was UTC and they seem to be hitting every so often, sometimes they try to create a few sometimes just one. E.g. OmearaGryderNRxz, RorerWehmeierGfzz. Can a checkuser see what IP tried to create those failed accounts and then use it to find the
76 I guess they did create successfully? (More if it's been happening over multiple days.) Nil Einne (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)- For the record, I do remember seeing a few successful creations with a similar username pattern quite a while back now. Those accounts created their userpages with a block of incoherent text, in the middle of which was a spam link to a "Garcinia Cambogia Weight Loss" supplement or other similar snake oil product. I've always wondered why the spambots put random text on their pages - perhaps they are trying to fool automated anti-spam processes by making their spam look like an innocuous passage of text with a link in it rather than a spam link standing on its own. Passengerpigeon (talk) 09:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- It is indeed their intent to fill their spam with non-sequitur fluff to fool filters or moderators, though anyone with a good BS filter can weed them out on sight. I assume there are plans to do a rangeblock on the offending IPs, yes? Or would that be infeasible? Blake Gripling (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, I do remember seeing a few successful creations with a similar username pattern quite a while back now. Those accounts created their userpages with a block of incoherent text, in the middle of which was a spam link to a "Garcinia Cambogia Weight Loss" supplement or other similar snake oil product. I've always wondered why the spambots put random text on their pages - perhaps they are trying to fool automated anti-spam processes by making their spam look like an innocuous passage of text with a link in it rather than a spam link standing on its own. Passengerpigeon (talk) 09:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at [34] confirms it was UTC and they seem to be hitting every so often, sometimes they try to create a few sometimes just one. E.g. OmearaGryderNRxz, RorerWehmeierGfzz. Can a checkuser see what IP tried to create those failed accounts and then use it to find the
- Assuming those times were in UTC, I'm not seeing any successful creations around the same time with a similar username pattern [33] Maybe the successful creations were earlier, unfortunately 24 hours is a lot of usernames and even assuming
- From what I understand, it's 6 accounts in a 24 hour period. I've run into this limit several times in my work on ACC . ~ Matthewrbowker Drop me a note 20:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's because username creation requests are throttled to so many per hour (I think it's six) without need for a filter. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 16:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- They don't show up on the logs though, nor are they registered at all. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive WP:SPA account edit warring against consensus
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The account Dijhndis's whole WP activity consists of WP:OWNing and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS Scandinavia to non-English usage. This isn't the place for the content dispute, but in one sentence: reliable sources in English sometimes include five countries, sometime three, in Scandinavia; there is not one English usage. This has been amicably discussed for a month on the talk page, with a broad consensus to say "In the Nordic languages, Scandinavia refers to the three kingdoms of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark; however, in English, the term sometimes includes Finland and Iceland. ". However, Dijhndis is adamant that this is just "confusion among foreigners" [35], "inaccurate usage among some foreign sources" [36], " fringe minority of foreign sources" [37]. As the user imposes its own version against talk page consensus through edit warring [38], [39] and insistence of following Danish usage over English ("foreign") usage regardless of any discussion, I take it here. There's nothing in the user's whole WP history to suggest they are at Wikipedia for any other reason than pushing their nationalist POV. Jeppiz (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jeppiz, I've read most of the talk page, (including recent discussion) and I sympathise as I'm afraid it's the same argument going round and round since the year X. I'm afraid I don't see a clear recent consensus there which Dijhndis is violating, partly because only the two of you are currently engaged. Might I suggest that a WP:RfC is the best way forward here to establish a broader consensus, as this noticeboard will only examine behaviour, not article content.
- For what it's worth, the sources I looked at on that page, confirm that 'Scandinavia' is a loosely defined term in English usage. CERTAINLY the article should inform that more defined use(s) exist within (parts of?) Scandinavia, but Dijhndis appears to be claiming that there is only one valid definition and everyone else is ignorant or wrong, which is PoV IMHO.Pincrete (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- Pincrete I agree, Dijhnis's insistance only his version is true and all other usage is wrong is typical nationalist POV-pushers. Worse is the repeated edit warring, and Dijhnis first imposed their own version [40], then reverted me [41] and then reverted Thomas.W. That's three times in less than a day, and against several other users, on top of which Dijhnis's even claims that everybody else is disruptive and against consensus(!) ("rv disruptive POV edit, restore longstanding consensus", "Rv disruptive and unhelpful edit against the established consensus version"). Nobody can claim good faith when reverting several other users and claim to do it for consensus. Both the user's actions and comments in the discussion shows that Dijhnis either does not understand Wikipedia or does not care. The whole 5-year old history of the account is to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by pushing their own nationalist POV against those "confused foreign sources". I must say I'm surprised the user is still on Wikipedia, disruptive nationalist SPA-accounts are rarely helpful. Jeppiz (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- I agree in full. The lede of the article is very weird without a bref and concise desciption of what most readers of Engliah expect to find there. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- ANI isn't going to answer the content question. An RfC should.Pincrete (talk) 08:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- True, but this isn't about the content issue but about a highly disruptive user who edit wars, attack all who disagree, refuses to listen, and certainly isn't here to contribute. That's an issue for ANI. Jeppiz (talk) 09:54, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- You are probably right, but your case would be clearer if you could point at a recent RFC which had established a consensus. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jeppiz, I endorse what Jonathan A Jones says. Until there is a clear consensus on both a neutral definition of the word and the limits of the article, (not necessarily the same thing), ANI isn't going to do anything. Pincrete (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is no RfC, and I'm afraid you're mixing the content dispute with this ANI report. I've seen countless of nationalist POV-pushing SPA accounts blocked at ANI for WP:NOTHERE, and I don't see a difference here either. Again, it's not about who is right or wrong about what Scandinavia is, it's about the long-term behavior on one problematic account. Jeppiz (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jeppiz, I endorse what Jonathan A Jones says. Until there is a clear consensus on both a neutral definition of the word and the limits of the article, (not necessarily the same thing), ANI isn't going to do anything. Pincrete (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- You are probably right, but your case would be clearer if you could point at a recent RFC which had established a consensus. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- True, but this isn't about the content issue but about a highly disruptive user who edit wars, attack all who disagree, refuses to listen, and certainly isn't here to contribute. That's an issue for ANI. Jeppiz (talk) 09:54, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- ANI isn't going to answer the content question. An RfC should.Pincrete (talk) 08:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- I agree in full. The lede of the article is very weird without a bref and concise desciption of what most readers of Engliah expect to find there. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Pincrete I agree, Dijhnis's insistance only his version is true and all other usage is wrong is typical nationalist POV-pushers. Worse is the repeated edit warring, and Dijhnis first imposed their own version [40], then reverted me [41] and then reverted Thomas.W. That's three times in less than a day, and against several other users, on top of which Dijhnis's even claims that everybody else is disruptive and against consensus(!) ("rv disruptive POV edit, restore longstanding consensus", "Rv disruptive and unhelpful edit against the established consensus version"). Nobody can claim good faith when reverting several other users and claim to do it for consensus. Both the user's actions and comments in the discussion shows that Dijhnis either does not understand Wikipedia or does not care. The whole 5-year old history of the account is to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by pushing their own nationalist POV against those "confused foreign sources". I must say I'm surprised the user is still on Wikipedia, disruptive nationalist SPA-accounts are rarely helpful. Jeppiz (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Problematic long-term IP editor
50.184.105.58 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
This user has an extensive history of unconstructive edits and adding content without any regard for sourcing or even correctness, and completely failing to engage in any discussion about his edits. He was blocked for 31 hours after this ANI thread, but he promptly returned with no change in behavior. He also edits from many other IP's (apparently from his mobile phone), but this seems to be his main IP, so a long-term block would at least help a little bit. Some recent problematic edits: [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48]
Just a sampling of other IP's he has used lately:
- 2605:6000:1709:4009:D0A7:CBF7:417:6517 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 107.77.211.10 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 107.77.212.211 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.137.176.8 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.137.176.38 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.137.176.51 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.137.179.15 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.177.248.15 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.177.248.79 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.177.248.242 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.177.250.63 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.177.250.94 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 166.171.251.161 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
Toohool (talk) 04:56, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Lack of communication is irritating and I was getting ready to throw some blocks and protection around--but what's wrong with this edit? Or this? Drmies (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is one of the problems with the admin tools set: it is incomplete. Problems like this are difficult to deal with. The editor covers a few different IP ranges, and I haven't checked the ranges for collateral damage because it wouldn't be effective anyway. Individual blocks are going to be spotty, particularly since he uses mobile edits. It seems most of the time, he does a bunch of edits in one day then disappears, so there isn't a chance for him to see the warnings, as he has a new IP by the time he comes back. I don't know of a good answer unless it gets to the point that protection is needed, at WP:RFPP. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:23, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
There was some problem on Kashibai and an user reverted my edit. I started a discussion on the talk page but this user, neither discussed anything nor gave reasons but went on to revert my edit. Please, take a look.Krish | Talk 13:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Good. Your behaviour was unacceptable. Taking your dispute to the talk page is far better than launching personal attacks like you did [49]. --Yamla (talk) 13:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Please note that the discussion of whether your edit was an improvement or not has been completely lost. I have no opinion on the edit itself but agree that your use of inflammatory terms is not acceptable, and is the reason why no one is discussing your edit. Please rethink your choice of language and explain why your edit is an improvement to the article.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- If I said a thing to A, why would B revert my edit? It doesn't make any sense. If I go and revert back then I'll be blocked because of 3RR rule? How disgusting is that? I had given my reasons on the talk page and the reasons are valid but hey, I did a wrong thing? My words were caused by that user's (Dharmadhyaksha) constant bad faith on that article. Check history and you will find.Krish | Talk 13:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm glad you are aware of WP:3RR. Please also make sure you are aware of WP:NPA. "My words were caused by that user's constant bad faith on that article." Maybe so, but if you make personal attacks again, you may be blocked. In any case, there's an ongoing discussion on the article's talk page. I don't believe any further action is warranted at this time. --Yamla (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- This is a case of WP: Own and nothing else. He reverted my ediys wiithout any reasons or explainations, which shows that he owns the article. My reasons are valid. So please give a better reply and an idea to deal with this.Krish | Talk 13:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I put the content back as it was earlier before this particular user thought it to be controversial/unappropriated to the article. I agree that that edit summary was missing and thats because I am using a tool and it was a mobile edit. I dont understand how a single revert warrants for ANI. This is my single (most likely) edit to the article. I dont know how it becomes a case of WP:OWN. Are we becoming so childish in taking such edits/reverts to the board? Simple hopeless! - Vivvt (Talk) 13:52, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- This is a case of WP: Own and nothing else. He reverted my ediys wiithout any reasons or explainations, which shows that he owns the article. My reasons are valid. So please give a better reply and an idea to deal with this.Krish | Talk 13:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm glad you are aware of WP:3RR. Please also make sure you are aware of WP:NPA. "My words were caused by that user's constant bad faith on that article." Maybe so, but if you make personal attacks again, you may be blocked. In any case, there's an ongoing discussion on the article's talk page. I don't believe any further action is warranted at this time. --Yamla (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- If I said a thing to A, why would B revert my edit? It doesn't make any sense. If I go and revert back then I'll be blocked because of 3RR rule? How disgusting is that? I had given my reasons on the talk page and the reasons are valid but hey, I did a wrong thing? My words were caused by that user's (Dharmadhyaksha) constant bad faith on that article. Check history and you will find.Krish | Talk 13:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Krish has a history of making personal attacks and has been previously blocked in Dec 2012 for this edit summary and this comment and again in Oct 2013. Not that these two incidences should be considered in current case, but am mentioning them to show that the user is very much aware of WP's NPA policy.
The user still continues to make PAs as noted below. (Note: I am usually very tolerant about such PAs as many IPs and newbies come barging on my talk page. Some users and admins have been kind enough to revert/revdel them on their own. In case some of these are not really considered PAs, as these are considered case-by-case with no fixed definition, please ignore those ones.)
- Towards me
- "This article was reviewed by editors 10x better than you so fuck yourself hypocrite Dharmadhyaksha-or adharmdhyaksha"
- "Use at least little bit of sense"
- "Would you please stop being a JERK?"
- "I know my job better than you Dharam (your work is just opposite of your name)."
- "Dharm, do you want to hear F bombs from me because it's is irritating me. My work was to nominate....this is not my problem if an idiot reviewer didn't found mistakes. Its not my fault. You are what? You call yourself an Indian? Really shame on you."
- The Jerk Barnstar: I award you this for being a Jerk like always
I am not sure if I should point PAs made against other editors, as it should be their case to take it up. But these are too many to ignore. Individual editors can of course comment here and ask to disregard the below mentioned comments.
- Towards others
- "Are you dumb? "
- "Who the hell made you an administratyor?"
- "You are so pathetic. Now onwards my eye will be on you and I will tell you what is its like to get punished for others fault."
- "I should have known that you are a hypocrite and a big time manipulator."
- "You need to look here before talking and adding shit to that article I am more experienced than you here and know much better than you. You don't tell me what I should do."
- "Thank you Vensatry for getting your nose into the matter, which has nothing to do with you."
- "Get the Fuck out of my user page"
Am hence also pinging the involved editors @EdJohnston, Human3015, Carl Waxman, Vensatry, and Arjann: §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 13:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- What I do on my talk page is none of your business. If someone will threaten me than what sjould be my response. By the way, how about your behaviour? Your behaviour is not very good and its obvious by these hate you have received from lot of people and not only from me.
"You are being an idiot." - Maunus "..idiots like you.." - Maunus "You're being ridiculous." - Calvin999 "Don't like his stuffy attitude." - Bonkers The Clown "Your friend (User:Ratnakar.kulkarni) is as bad as you, dishonest and evasive." - Leaky caldron "..I hate Dharmadhyaksha and Vivvt for their sheer stupidity." - Vensatry "This article was reviewed by editors 10x better than you so fuck yourself hypocrite Dharmadhyaksha-or adharmdhyaksha" - Krish! "Use at least little bit of sense" - Krish! "Would you please stop being a JERK?" - Krish! "I know my job better than you Dharam (your work is just opposite of your name)." - Krish! "Dharm, do you want to hear F bombs from me because it's is irritating me. My work was to nominate....this is not my problem if an idiot reviewer didn't found mistakes. Its not my fault. You are what? You call yourself an Indian? Really shame on you." - Krish! "...I have never come across a user who is as stupid as you....You and user Vivvt are pathetic and put other users in a harrowing time. I guess, you should stop chasing users and their work. Rather spend some time in improving yourself. Dumb." - Arjann
.Please tell why all these people have had problems with you? And, pointing out my previous maistakes has nothing to do with this incident of your beloved friend. Both of you are players and both work together.Krish | Talk 14:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Krish!, drop it. Your recent comments are over the line, especially this morning's "barnstar" and your edit summary calling another user a moron. If I see any more breaches of our civility policy, I will block you. This is quite clearly a content dispute, discussion should happen on the talk page of the article, not grumbling here. Dharmadhyaksha, you are complaining largely about issues over 4 months old and he was blocked (for edit warring) around that time, I appreciate that it looks like things are building up here again for you, and I will watch the article, but you need to focus on the content dispute at hand rather than past behaviour. WormTT(talk) 14:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well thank you, this was a bad comment i agree I shouldn't have done that. I had stopped fighting and would rather focus on my work here. This is waht I'm trying to tell this user that putting prevbious problems had nothing to do with this. But he went on and on. Plus, this guy is not ready to discuss and would revert things like he owns the article. I would like your help on this matter.Krish | Talk 14:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Krish!, you were a hair's breadth from being blocked for that barnstar - I certainly see why Dharmadhyaksha brought up the past, it's your past behaviour which time and again is beyond the pale. You need to be doing the legwork here and you need to drop your complaints. I will be watching, but only as an administrator for poor behaviour. I will not be participating in the dispute. WormTT(talk) 14:39, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- ...and any specific reason I was brought to ANI? - Vivvt (Talk) 15:26, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- User has gone on a wikibreak, for good. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 18:37, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- You never know. Some editors take a wikibreak and never return to editing. Others' long wikibreak ends up just lasting just a week. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time this is happening, a few of Kirsh!'s previous accounts were blocked for similar behavior. Another incident happened last year that I was aware of; unfortunately, I took the step of page protection instead of blocking as explained at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Prashantlovehimself/Archive. —SpacemanSpiff 02:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- This retiring-leaving-coming-back-again drama is not new with the Indian editors. This keeps happening with some of them followed by Dont-leave-us-come-back-we-miss-you-glad-you-are-back stuff! This archives nothing than talk pages full of emotional talks. - Vivvt (Talk) 03:20, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What? Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Prashantlovehimself/Archive what is this?, I saw this for the first time. SpacemanSpiff just because some editor has a similar name and likes similar subject, doesn't mean it was me who edited from those accounts. I came to know about wikipedia in 2012 (anyone can edit it). and I started writing In MY City article. My first visit to wikipedia was 2012, and I don't need to cry to prove that. I hope people on wikipedia could see the good side of an user, who despite his busy student life have given so much time here.Krish | Talk 03:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that you have contributed content has prevented many from taking admin action when they should have. Your behavior on this account and your previous accounts has been disruptive; in addition to the issue of constant personal attacks against other editors there's also the problem of WP:NPOV issues where you seem to be taking your Priyanka Chopra fandom far too seriously for an encyclopaedia, not just on that particular article but also on other articles. —SpacemanSpiff 03:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- A fandom? I have edited and written other FLs as well and had planned to. By the way, I don't have any problems with NPOV and I support it. KIndly please try to understand, I reported this user because he reverted an edit, when i had already opnened a discussion. I know it was too small to come her, I apolagize, sorry. Now please close this discussion I have my studies to do and I'm taking a long break for a year. Thank you.Krish | Talk 03:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that you have contributed content has prevented many from taking admin action when they should have. Your behavior on this account and your previous accounts has been disruptive; in addition to the issue of constant personal attacks against other editors there's also the problem of WP:NPOV issues where you seem to be taking your Priyanka Chopra fandom far too seriously for an encyclopaedia, not just on that particular article but also on other articles. —SpacemanSpiff 03:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What? Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Prashantlovehimself/Archive what is this?, I saw this for the first time. SpacemanSpiff just because some editor has a similar name and likes similar subject, doesn't mean it was me who edited from those accounts. I came to know about wikipedia in 2012 (anyone can edit it). and I started writing In MY City article. My first visit to wikipedia was 2012, and I don't need to cry to prove that. I hope people on wikipedia could see the good side of an user, who despite his busy student life have given so much time here.Krish | Talk 03:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- This retiring-leaving-coming-back-again drama is not new with the Indian editors. This keeps happening with some of them followed by Dont-leave-us-come-back-we-miss-you-glad-you-are-back stuff! This archives nothing than talk pages full of emotional talks. - Vivvt (Talk) 03:20, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time this is happening, a few of Kirsh!'s previous accounts were blocked for similar behavior. Another incident happened last year that I was aware of; unfortunately, I took the step of page protection instead of blocking as explained at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Prashantlovehimself/Archive. —SpacemanSpiff 02:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- You never know. Some editors take a wikibreak and never return to editing. Others' long wikibreak ends up just lasting just a week. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- User has gone on a wikibreak, for good. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 18:37, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- ...and any specific reason I was brought to ANI? - Vivvt (Talk) 15:26, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Krish!, you were a hair's breadth from being blocked for that barnstar - I certainly see why Dharmadhyaksha brought up the past, it's your past behaviour which time and again is beyond the pale. You need to be doing the legwork here and you need to drop your complaints. I will be watching, but only as an administrator for poor behaviour. I will not be participating in the dispute. WormTT(talk) 14:39, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Open an ANI discussion without having a solid ground and now wants to close the discussion because he has studies to do! Other people are marely wasting their time on WP. Admins, please note that this particular user shall not be taken seriously for anything and everything that involves other editors. - Vivvt (Talk) 04:03, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Sudden studies or WP:BOOMERANG effect? If I get time I am sure I will find many such wikibreaks that have aligned with non-favourable circumstances just to avoid blocks and bans. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 04:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- You wish. LOL. This post I wrote on 23 April 2016 dont show its sudden. Check facts before accusing someone of something.Krish | Talk 05:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
If you're going on a wiki break, go on the wiki break. Don't continue editing under the guise that you have 'studies' to do. It's one or the other, and it's quickly approaching the point where a boomerang is in order. --Tarage (talk) 07:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Krish!, you were editing in the past hour which undermines your claim that you are taking a long wikibreak. Liz Read! Talk! 15:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Liz Well, I'm still editing because I have an ongoing discussion about the disputed article. So, Isn't that obvious that I'll be editing? Now please close this discussion as I'm sure the discussion on the article's talk page is enough. Thank you for your time folks.Krish | Talk 15:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Why should it be closed without any action against you? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 17:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well this is May 2016, if you want to take action for what i did in 2015 and before then i am very sorry that's not going to happen and I think you are trying to provoke me to do something with your texts but i am not interested to fight with you or anyone. This is not a place where you engage in random fights. This is an encyclopedia its better we respect this site.Krish | Talk 19:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Why should it be closed without any action against you? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 17:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Liz Well, I'm still editing because I have an ongoing discussion about the disputed article. So, Isn't that obvious that I'll be editing? Now please close this discussion as I'm sure the discussion on the article's talk page is enough. Thank you for your time folks.Krish | Talk 15:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- "The Jerk Barnstar: I award you this for being a Jerk like always." 08:03, 1 May 2016
- "moron Dharmadhyaksha" ...." dumb moron" 07:56, 1 May 2016
- "She was never criticised you MORON" 07:32, 1 May 2016
- "Dharmadhyaksha, everything was resolved at the FLC, so your edits are questionable. Plus, Now I'll be checking on you and I know some of your articles require that template and Wait then watch IM coming" 07:52, 25 January 2016
- "This article was reviewed by editors 10x better than you so fuck yourself hypocrite Dharmadhyaksha-or adharmdhyaksha" 13:21, 22 January 2016
May 2016 stuff... §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 04:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't you already had mentioned above? and the administrator had already addressed them? Give me a break. Bye Bye......Krish | Talk 06:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Admins should take this into account that his behavioural pattern has not changed over the years and he keeps abusing other editors with the strong words. Involved editors have seen this I-won't-do-this drama several times and its really frustrating that its always the other editor who is asked behave with civility. - Vivvt (Talk) 06:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't you already had mentioned above? and the administrator had already addressed them? Give me a break. Bye Bye......Krish | Talk 06:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Harassment from user DMacks
The user DMacks is for some reason, following and stalking my every move on this website. Every time I try to make an edit to a page, he comes in and reverts every edit I make. He also has refused to stop this behavior after I emailed him about it multiple times. I would like to have an admin on this site take care of this and ban him from harassing me in the future. I've only been an active editor on this site for a few months now and I don't feel that this is something that a user like me should have to experience. No one should have to experience harassment like this on a website built to encourage community and help through constructive criticism and page editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LivingGuildpact (talk • contribs) 00:44, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- He's an administrator, you are edit warring, and your edits are unsourced and quite frankly nonsense. You aren't seeking consensus, you haven't made a single talk page edit after making changes, and you have made no attempts to engage editors about your edits. Drop the stick or you will be blocked again. --Tarage (talk) 00:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence of harassment. What seems to be happening is that you're adding information without any sources. The guideline WP:V deals with this, and it is one of the central guidelines of Wikipedia. When users make problematic edits, it's quite common for other editors to go through said user's other edits, it's not harassment, and it's not meant to be. Eik Corell (talk) 00:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) LivingGuildpact - You're required to notify all users when you open a new ANI thread that involves them directly. I've gone ahead and done this for you here.
- Looking at your contributions, I see that DMacks has reverted the edits you've made to Mayonnaise and Miracle Whip. Each of his reversions have been explained in the edit summaries that DMacks left (see 1, 2, 3, and 4 (back in Feb)). He cited issues with consensus, not citing a reliable source with your changes, as well as edit warring. Looking at your talk page, you have been previously warned for edit warring as well as for causing disruption (and a block), but you since removed those warnings. It's clear that there are issues with the edits being made, but it looks like these are problematic because of the content you've been changing. I also see no evidence of you attempting to collaborate or even ask about the reversions in an effort to understand the reason behind them; you simply re-add the content back later, which gets reverted again. DMacks is not harassing you nor is he violating any Wikipedia policies. He's reverting your changes for proper reasons, and within his administrative role. I highly recommend that you discuss your concerns directly with DMacks so that he can try and assist you. I also suggest that you make no further edits to the articles until you've properly discussed everything in concern; failure to do so will result in further blocks. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
I have been the victim of harassment from DMacks, even if he is an administrator, he shouldn't be abusing his power and privilege to harass an editor. Harassment is to be defined by the victim of the harassment, not the perpetrator or outside onlookers. I am now making a public announcement on an administrator page to let people know that I do not want DMacks involved with me, my edits, or any pages I have edited in the past. I do not want to be subjected to harassment from him anymore. If another admin can take action to block him from being involved with me, that would be greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LivingGuildpact (talk • contribs) 01:12, 2 May 2016
- LivingGuildpact - Other editors here have already explained that DMack's reversions were appropriate and that he was not engaging in harassment towards you. I understand that you're frustrated and perhaps upset. One part of our job is to try and help you (of course! :-)), but another part of our job is to perform a logical, neutral, and level-headed examination of the evidence and information provided to us, and make a decision or provide feedback based off our findings. If you're going to file an administrator report here, you need to listen to the information and advice that is given to you. They may not meet your expectations or be what you'd like to hear or see happen, but our goal is to be fair and to everyone.
- We can only help you if you want our help. Not acknowledging the responses that we've given to you and ignoring our advice makes us feel that we're wasting our time, and shows us that collaboration and achieving consensus is not your main objective. If you'd like, I'm more than willing to assist you with your concerns on my talk page and recommend to everyone here that this ANI be closed (under the condition that you allow me to assist you). It's your choice; if that is what you'd like, I'll be happy to make that recommendation for you. Otherwise, I'll leave things be and move on; I've done my best to try and help you, but I can't force you to be willing to be given appropriate help. Does anybody have objections with my offer to LivingGuildpact? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- If he gets mentorship and stops this destructive behavior no one is going to complain. The end result is he needs to stop the edit warring. That's all anyone cares about. Either by blocking or by becoming a contributing editor. --Tarage (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I agree 100%. My offer still stands. I'm more than happy to offer mentoring and assistance to LivingGuildpact, should he choose to accept it. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- If he gets mentorship and stops this destructive behavior no one is going to complain. The end result is he needs to stop the edit warring. That's all anyone cares about. Either by blocking or by becoming a contributing editor. --Tarage (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have much to add here that hasn't already been said multiple times. Edit-warring against multiple editors who are asserting consensus and cited ref, not listening when editors say that those behaviors are a problem, etc...those are all problems compounded. I have no objection to any mentorship or any other process by which editors can move towards contributing in line with out editorial and behavioral standards. DMacks (talk) 03:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Re: "Harassment is to be defined by the victim of the harassment, not the perpetrator or outside onlookers": @LivingGuildpact: I'd urge you to stand back and think about that for a moment. When someone is accused of something, the accuser gets to be the judge? No system of dispute resolution could possibly work that way. If you want to work successfully here on Wikipedia, you have to accept that judgement in disputes can only be decided by what you refer to as "outside onlookers", ie: disinterested third parties (and for the record, I see no harassment either, just reasonable admin actions). That's the way it works here, and that's the way disputes are settled just about everywhere else too. I'd urge you to take the good advice that people have offered you here, and I'd also urge you to read about how Wikipedia decisions are made by consensus and how disputes are resolved. And finally, I strongly urge you to take up Oshwah's very kind offer of mentorship - it can be very discouraging when you're new here and you have your edits reverted, and mentorship can really help. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Proposed ban for TV5Ozamiz
TV5Ozamiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked indefinitely in November 2014 for Abusing multiple accounts, and has been persistently socking since then obvious (see Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of TV5Ozamiz, Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of TV5Ozamiz, Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/TV5Ozamiz and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TV5Ozamiz). Their persistent Vandalism, disruptive editing and Sock Puppetry which includes edit of Philippine Media Companies, Mindanao Stations and Philippine Movies severe as vandalism and hoax to articles, user and user talk pages, page are blanking on IP Address talk pages include vandalism on these articles, abuse of Multiple accounts, creation and edit of hoax pages and article include some Talk Page are removed those warning and the Sock puppet tag are those blanked the pages that User:TV5Ozamiz has been banned as a formality. LG-Gunther : Talk 01:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- If their MO is so consistent, a de jure ban won't do much more than the de facto ban that they are already under. Blackmane (talk) 02:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Sure User:TV5Ozamiz has Edit of Articles of Philippine Media Companies, Philippine Movies and Philippine Radio Stations has Hoax and Vandalism Acting like User:Bertrand101. LG-Gunther : Talk 02:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Edit Wars at Payback 2016
There is a wave of vandalizm happening on the Payback (2016) page. Maybe it should be blocked to open edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by DinobotTM2 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- @DinobotTM2: Payback (2016) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) looks like it's protected and cleaned up. Did we miss anything? -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:42, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I tried a semi-protect, and that was an immediate failure. Article is now fully-protected for 1 week. SQLQuery me! 01:44, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm currently going through each edit one-by-one to start sorting out the mess and start warning/reporting vandals. This will take awhile...... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:48, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Good luck. (You'll need it) -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm currently going through each edit one-by-one to start sorting out the mess and start warning/reporting vandals. This will take awhile...... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:48, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
User Galassi at Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry
I'm finding it impossible to work with User:Galassi. I started re-editing the the page on the Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry on 21 April 2016, correcting some recent edits and giving my reasons in extensive detail on the talk page The long list of problems was ignored for some days.
- Since in the meantime Galassi kept reverting, I opened a talk page section with his name calling his attention to the problem of him reverting without answering the issues on the talk page.
- Several long discussions ensued, but only with other editors. See this section, this section and this section, for several attempts I made calling on reverting editors to discuss the issues.
- The sum of Galassi’s comments, despite him being the main reverter, consist of one liners that ignore the technical problems and issues, are void of content, except flag waving. Seehere, here, here, here, here, here, and here
- While ignoring repeated requests to him and other editors to answer the objections on the talk page Galassi has persistently reverted the article ever since, whenever I touch it. here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here
- All of these reverts restore several pieces of material which the talk page argues either fail WP:RS, or do not reflect the source, or push a non-neutral POV, such as saying a theory whose scientific status is uncertain, has been ‘refuted’ etc. The edit summaries are obscure, and often specious, as in this morning's Reverted good faith edits by Nishidani (talk): Per WP:SYNTH. This cannot be true because the passage he reverted out is a straight quote from a source. I didn't synthesize anything. My impression is the editor is just reverting me at sight without examining the talk page, the sources, or anything else. I found this exasperating and told him so, without mentioning WP:HOUND, and asked him to stop telling me to 'cease and desist', as if he were dictating surrender terms. This morning he saw me edit anew, an innocuous inclusion of another quote from a source already accepted, and reverted it, and then posted the same 'cease and desist' nonsense on my talk page. This looks very much to me like an attempt to needle away and fish up a reportable response.
I think, since he just engages in blind reverts, and refuses to use the talk page, that he should be asked to stay away from that particular article.Nishidani (talk) 14:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Please, ignore. THis is a RETALIATORY motion. USer Nishidani alone battles against multiple-users' consensus, in violation of WP:OWN, WP:ILIKEIT, WP:POV, WP:FRINGE, WP:POVFORK etc., all of which has been repeatedly pointed to him.--Galassi (talk) 15:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- A browse of the article history indicates that a number of editors take exception to your substantial article-changing edits. Given that your high-handed talkpage pronouncements and the personal attacks in edit summaries have generally failed to convince other editors, I dont think Galassi is the one who needs a break . Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- High-handed? I have twice intervened to stop that editor whom you say I used a personal attack against, from almost certainly getting a topic ban, once quite recently. She uses the talk page, so though she edit wars, and is plainly trying to push a POV, she's amenable to collegial discussion. In that case, I never, never raise an objection to such editors. Galassi refuses to use the talk page, and has consistently edited in execrably bad material the talk page shows fails WP:V. I get pissed off, sure. It took me several months of research to try to master a difficult and controversial topic like Khazars, which I basically wrote, only to find editors frigging about with lazy revert edit-warring to establish a 'truth', while ignoring the scholarly literature. Nishidani (talk) 15:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- "Which I basically wrote"... So no ownership issues there at all then. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:06, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- High-handed? I have twice intervened to stop that editor whom you say I used a personal attack against, from almost certainly getting a topic ban, once quite recently. She uses the talk page, so though she edit wars, and is plainly trying to push a POV, she's amenable to collegial discussion. In that case, I never, never raise an objection to such editors. Galassi refuses to use the talk page, and has consistently edited in execrably bad material the talk page shows fails WP:V. I get pissed off, sure. It took me several months of research to try to master a difficult and controversial topic like Khazars, which I basically wrote, only to find editors frigging about with lazy revert edit-warring to establish a 'truth', while ignoring the scholarly literature. Nishidani (talk) 15:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Galassi has been indefinitely topic-banned from Ukraine-related material since April 2013 for failing to adhere to a personal restriction on the frequency with which reverts could be performed. Galassi's talkpage shows that conflicts have occurred with other editors over editing of Khazar-related material, or that other editors have intervened (1, 2, 3, 4, 5). The justification Galassi gives for reverting in example 2, "It is common sense, you see. Elhaik is a charlatan, as he is bent on pushing a theory that proposes that a Caucasoid ethnic group descends from a Mongoloid one. 'Nuf said," is foolish: he libels a research scientist based on his own basic ignorance of who the Khazars were, a level of ignorance that raises questions about whether any of Galassi's contributions on the subject can be beneficial. ← ZScarpia 17:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- That is IRRELEVANT here. User Nishidani failed to secure a consensus for his POV, and he is pushing his anti-zionist envelope elsewhere.--Galassi (talk) 03:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Comment Of Galassi's last 500 edits in the main space (since January 13, 2015), 270 have had edit summaries beginning "Reverted". During this same period, they have only made 86 talk page edits, and almost none of those are substantial original comments. In their entire edit history they have made more than eight times as many article edits as talk page edits. Propose 1RR. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Proposal: Place Galassi (talk · contribs) under 1RR
I propose placing Galassi under a one-revert rule, indefinitely, until they can demonstrate that they are willing to engage in constructive discussion on talk pages instead of edit-warring. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
In the news: Whitewashing in Providence (religious movement)
Australian magazine Crikey today brings an article about whitewashing in our article Providence (religious movement).
Background: South Korean, Christian NRM. The organization's leader, a self-proclaimed messiah, is serving a 10-year prison sentence for raping female followers. Followers remaining with the organization are, not surprisingly, convinced of his innocence, and have a documented record in reliable sources for violently beating up Ex-Providence whistleblowers and, in a Wikipedia context importantly, violently trying to suppress negative press.
Wikipedia article history: The article (as well as the merged Jung Myung Seok) was for years the target of tendentious editing by church members. The community decided to indef block two editors in March 2014 (AN/I diff), and after a 1-year semi protection in April, all was quiet and calm. For a short while. The following accounts were created and have shown a keen interest in the article:
- GIOSCali (talk · contribs), reg. 29 June 2014, SPA
- Phoenix0316 (talk · contribs), reg. 21 July 2015, SPA in effect
- CollinsBK (talk · contribs), reg. 10 August 2015, SPA
Editing patterns as well as the talk page exhaustion soon looked a lot like it was pre-March 2014. A prolonged 2-year semi was applied in August 2015. Personally I had had it in the fall of 2015, and decided to step back. Looks like other regulars, Kiyoweap, Ian.thomson, Jim1138, Shii, Harizotoh9 did something similar. Since then new users have joined editing
- BourkeM (talk · contribs), reg. 12 September 2015, not an SPA, but same POV concerns
- SugarvilleMom (talk · contribs), reg. 14 January 2016, SPA in effect.
Comparing a before and after revision side by side shows you the whitewashing:
26 September 2015 — ° — 30 April 2016
From a decent 68k article (all incl.) with 90+ citations, it went down to 46k and ~50 citations. The nature of the contents changes are obvious.
For now I have restored a prior revision, and I suggest we take it from there. More eyes on the article, as well as active participants on the talk page, should the shenanigans continue, would be lovely. Advice on how to proceed in order to secure a more neutral future article would be great. Sam Sailor Talk! 16:17, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- For background, here is the closed dispute resolution case from spring 2015 although the only editor who was involved in DR who is mentioned here is GIOSCali. Liz Read! Talk! 16:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Support the recent restoration. Not sure exactly what else can be done, other than perhaps restoring some level of page protection. One of the unfortunate problems relating to this group in particular is the comparative lack of English language sources available, at least so far as I have seen, and the occasional, sometimes reasonable, questions about whether those sources are what we would most like to use for our article. The Unification Church, its parent body, has gotten a lot of publicity, and is covered well in multiple sources, but this group doesn't seem to offer that much different for academic and/or western press to cover at length, so there is apparently less obvious reason to go into details regarding it except regarding specific events related to it and it alone. I guess page protection and/or discretionary sanctions might be the best way to go here? John Carter (talk) 17:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- P. S. I'm thinking the article in Crikey itself may merit some mention in the Providence article or some spinout article. The full article doesn't seem to be available on the net yet, but it appears to about some Australian Tax Office employee has been editing the article from a government computer. When it does become available, or when there is some follow up or response, it might not be at all unreasonable to create a wikinews article on the subject, which could be linked to in the article regardless of WEIGHT considerations, and which can serve as a bit of a reminder to others about possible problems with this article. John Carter (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- As long as there's a consensus to go back to the full version, I'll at least aim to keep it at near there. Starting a job on the other side of the planet left me unable to deal with the continual civil POV-pushing from some of the SPAs. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- My attempting to keep the whitewashing down was a major time sink. Especially since many of the refs are in Korean, Japanese, and other foreign languages. I finally gave up. The article needs to be protected from outright whitewashing in some way. Sam Sailor's revert to a pre-whitewash state is a good start. Jim1138 (talk) 02:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Support restoration to version before whitewashing. Support topic-banning CollinsBK. She systematically deleted negative content which were well-sourced, and putting objections in Talk discussions by the wayside, reintroduced dubious claims that are poorly sourced/unsourced ("the sexual assault charges were dismissed by the prosecutors involved" cf. #YTN retractions or "900 million won in compensation" cf. #JMS sued SBS from broadcasting).--Kiyoweap (talk) 07:13, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Liz: Sorry, haven't looked at the problem in detail, but I thought I should point out that Shii (talk · contribs) unfortunately hasn't edited Wikipedia at all since July 2015. I really wish they were still around, but given that their 22nd-to-last article edit was to the article in question, it seemed a bit off to say they "decided to step back" from the dispute. I hope for the sake of the project's integrity in covering East Asian religion in general that what Shii intended was to "step back" from the project as a whole for a year or so and will decide to step back in at some point. Cheers. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
This is...suspicious
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I recently removed a section from the DC Universe Animated Original Movies as uncited, porting it over to the talk page, since, if cited, it could be useful. Sulloa09 reverted it three times before myself and others tried to get them to engage on the talk page, where discussion had been initiated. We also advised the user of the 3RR rule. Then, oddly enough, this revert pops up from a user, dok95 - a user with a total of three edits, all within hours of one another. I suspect a duck wearing at least one sock, but perhaps my AGF is lacking. Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Notice of notification of AN/I complaint: (Sulloa09 and Dok95). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Probably, although a sockpuppet investigation is probably warranted rather than admin action here. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It looks like a suspicious coincidence, especially if you misread the contributions as having been made "within hours of one another" (actually this one was made ten days before the other two). If Dok95 had been created after Sulloa09 was warned about edit warring, it might have been blocked by any passing admin as a duck. But that's not the case; it was created on en.wikipedia more than a week ago,[50] "automatically", which means it already existed on another wiki. Sure enough, the account has been editing fr.wikipedia for a year.[51] (Sulloa09 isn't known on fr.) That's not very sock-like. Bishonen | talk 20:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC).
- Fair enough. It looked pretty odd, like one of a possible number of supplemental accounts by a sockmaster for good hand/bad hand activity. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It looks like a suspicious coincidence, especially if you misread the contributions as having been made "within hours of one another" (actually this one was made ten days before the other two). If Dok95 had been created after Sulloa09 was warned about edit warring, it might have been blocked by any passing admin as a duck. But that's not the case; it was created on en.wikipedia more than a week ago,[50] "automatically", which means it already existed on another wiki. Sure enough, the account has been editing fr.wikipedia for a year.[51] (Sulloa09 isn't known on fr.) That's not very sock-like. Bishonen | talk 20:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC).
ScrapIronIV and I
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Was wondering if someone can help me out here so I know what's right and wrong.
So a few months ago I was editing Wellington College Belfast and User:ScrapIronIV reverted them as there was no sources. I reverted, as I thought the history of the principals tenure as important, for example as Hassard had overseen the building of a new school, and put in sources. It developed into a bit of a war as the user said it was excessive, I asked them to take it to the Talk page and not to break 3RR, instead they left it, then two week later, returned and deleted the content.
I'm guessing the user had a look though my recent contributions and decided that 'Town' is not another term for City centre as there was no source, so I got a source, which they deemed unacceptable, and they also left a warning for edit warring on my talk page. (User_talk:CDRL102#May_2016).
Also on Belfast city centre they reverted what the local term is, which looking back is fair enough, but our disagreement there is whether Bittles Bar stays or goes, after placing a source it was still removed.
I would just like to know what's right and wrong, I found sources and they weren't accepted, even though they say/confirm what I'm writing. Thanks, CDRL102 (talk) 18:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Unsourced past principals were deleted per WP:NOTADIRECTORY and the fact that none of the past principals was notable.
- The term "town" was not in the supplied citation.
- A non-notable tavern (Bittles) was removed, because the article was deleted by an AfD discussion.
- This is purely a content dispute, where the filer of this report refuses to supply sources or comply with Wikipedia standards. Filer would be wise to read WP:CHALLENGE and supply valid sources to support their additions. Scr★pIronIV 18:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- They weren't sourced at first, the second time they were.
- I know Wikipedia is not a directory, one part of it states "1. Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are relevant because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic. - The part I highlight here is because the information that I added the the principals was relevant to the History of the school.
- Another part states "8. Simple listings without context information." hence why I added information about each principals tenure. CDRL102 (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- And if you read above it, it specifies those lists as ...lists of links to articles within Wikipedia that are used for internal organization or to describe a notable subject." Not a single wikilinked article, not a single notable entry in said link. Please read the entire thing, and now we are back to a content discussion on ANI. This is about the behavior you reported, not the content of the article. Please keep this on topic; i.e., the horrendous behavior I have demonstrated which demands sanctionable action by the admin corps. Scr★pIronIV 19:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's about both the behaviour and the content, I feel the content was fair and you deleted it. Your behaviour was unfair as you just waited a few weeks to evade 3RR, then reported me for reverting your edits, we're both at fault for 3RR, only difference is you gave me a warning for it. CDRL102 (talk) 19:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- The content is immaterial, except that what you added was either unsourced or a misrepresentation of the source. As for warning you, it was justified. I did not report you anywhere; I don't know where that is coming from. You reported me here, and that is not about what is "fair" or "unfair" - it is about violations of policy. Have I been WP:UNCIVIL? Have I dragged you to the public square to be pilloried? What action are you demanding of our administrators for my deletion of your unsourced additions, and for warning you about the consequences of violating 3RR? Scr★pIronIV 19:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's about both the behaviour and the content, I feel the content was fair and you deleted it. Your behaviour was unfair as you just waited a few weeks to evade 3RR, then reported me for reverting your edits, we're both at fault for 3RR, only difference is you gave me a warning for it. CDRL102 (talk) 19:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- I just want other users to review the exchanges between you and I and to see if it was right of you to revert my edits after I had asked you to go to discussion and after I had provided a source. Even if my sources weren't good enough, a quick google and I'm sure you could have found a better source than the one I had. Also whilst talking about sources, you removed more content from the Wellington College Belfast page as unsourced, yet a quick google search showed a source. CDRL102 (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- AN/I is not about other users reviewing our exchanges, unless you are accusing me of something. It is not my responsibility to find your sources for you, nor is it my responsibility to find sources for others. If I am asked, I might do it - because I can actually be a reasonable human being. In the meantime, you are responsible for your own edits - as are those editors who put in wholly unsourced sections of trivial information about their grammar school. Scr★pIronIV 19:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
CDRL102, Admins do not have any powers over content disputes and this page is not the place to discuss content disputes. If you have a concern about ScrapIronIV's actions outside of a dispute about the content then that can be discussed. Was ScrapIronIV uncivil to you? break 3RR? Edit war? If any of these are yes, provide diffs to back it up. If not, take it to the article talk page and discuss it. If you can't come to an agreement you need to try some form of dispute resolution. -- GB fan 19:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- After I added a lot of content to Wellington College Belfast, it was reverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wellington_College_Belfast&diff=next&oldid=711556078). It was reverted again, after I added sources. I asked ScrapIronIV to take it to talk page, which they did not, and reverted again.(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wellington_College_Belfast&diff=next&oldid=711565199). On the next reversion, I warned them of 3RR and the fact I asked for it to be taken to talk page, so it wasn't reverted again, but several months later they came back and reverted it instead. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wellington_College_Belfast&diff=next&oldid=715904595). I reverted that (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wellington_College_Belfast&diff=prev&oldid=715904825), saying I had asked for it to be taken to discussion, but my reversion was again reverted by ScrapIronIV.
- Similarly, after I added Town as another word for Downtown, next to city centre, it was reverted as unsourced. I thought it was WP:UCS but they asked for a source. After providing a source it was still reverted as the source was from a .de website, though other websites gave the same response that the British English term for American Downtown was City Centre or Town. (See overall revision history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Downtown&action=history) CDRL102 (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Fine then, WP:3O is what we need. CDRL102 (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Karst keeps deleting accurate infromation
User Karst keeps deleting accurate information, that comes directly from the source of the pages members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Getmorechevelle (talk • contribs) 23:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Since they do not appear to have been notified, I have done so. GABHello! 23:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Here is the revert in question: "Undid revision 718322847 by Getmorechevelle (talk) As a WP:COI editor please place your requests/suggestions on the Talk page." GABHello! 00:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Seems like BS to me. The editor was bold and was reverted and asked to discuss. The word "keeps" implies that it has happened more than once. The sources that Getmorechevelle has removed is not invalidated by the band members' own promotional contents. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Here is the revert in question: "Undid revision 718322847 by Getmorechevelle (talk) As a WP:COI editor please place your requests/suggestions on the Talk page." GABHello! 00:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
216.226.127.10 & 173.220.191.218
These two IP's have a long history of vandalism. I would normally report them to AIV, but the page is currently protected.
- 216.226.127.10 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is a school IP, with the previous block being for 2 years.
- 173.220.191.218 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is probably a school or shared IP. Had a block in late January and has returned with only vandalism-edits.
Thanks. 2601:1C0:4901:2191:A14F:3638:7AFB:7EB0 (talk) 00:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry I had to semi-protect AIV this afternoon but we've had a spree of redirect vandalism over the last 24 hours or so, and three hour protections were ineffective. It will expire soon. Meanwhile, your IPs are indeed both schools but with only two edits each today and none in the last five hours, I'd prefer to hold off blocking them. Katietalk 01:11, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive editing in Russian soldier's article
Alexander Prokhorenko meets notability rules. Another editor who is very disruptive and was obviouly wikihounding Mhhossein nominated the article for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Prokhorenko.
I can't assume any good faith about this nomination, as FreeatlastChitchat is experienced user who have seen this. According to the nominator's ideology The only fault in this article is that the article was edited by Mhhossein, so I will take it to AFD as I am Free to do anything with Chit Chat.
The article was created by a new user from Sri Lanka. FreeatlastChitchat had no right to harass a new user to satisfy his long term goal to harass Mhhossein. Thank You for reading. --2A03:4A80:7:441:2066:60ED:1134:1A99 (talk) 06:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- There is no disruptive editing going on in the article. If you wish to bring a behavioural issue to light, you will need to provide Diffs. Till then, goodbye. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:46, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- I had checked yesterday that your last block was due to an WP:AE request filed by Mhhossein. Do you want to waste other editor's time by such reckless nomination? You assumed that Mhhossein created the page, but the page was actually created by a new user. Another question is, do you know what a user should do before nominating an article for AFD? Others check for notability, search for reliable sources if the new editor missed something, while you check your rival editor's contributions. If you don't know the process of how to do google to check for references, then you have no right to make any AFD nomination. 2A03:4A80:7:41A:49BF:DD9C:3BF5:686E (talk) 07:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: The problem here is not regarding your 'disruptive editing' on that article rather the OP is mentioning your hounding behavior. I can provide diffs showing your blatant harassment and hounding on multiple pages in spite of being warned against that, at admin's request. --Mhhossein (talk) 06:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- The AFD was closed as Keep with no Delete votes. It was an unsuccessful proposal and Mhhossein was just one editor who was working on this article. Do you have other evidence of harassment because this isn't very convincing. Liz Read! Talk! 07:53, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- The article was nominated as Mhhossein edited the article. If such behaviour is allowed then I have no problem . User A can hound user B and nominate for AFD. Then we have to clap. Do you care about the type of introduction User talk:Muvindu Perera got in Wikipedia?2A03:4A80:7:41A:C133:7604:7EE8:C2D8 (talk) 08:15, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Of course there is convincing evidence. Of course there is convincing evidence. Admins must always believe the statement of an unregistered editor that another editor is disruptive. Oh, wait a minute. On the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. Just filing an AFD that was closed as Keep isn't harassment. You say that you can provide diffs. Then do so, or a boomerang block is in order for disruptive claims or disruption.
- The page creator, who is a new editor from Sri Lanka was not harassed? There was not a single delete vote in that AFD as the nominator didn't check the notability before nominating the article. Sorry, I forgot, "Registered users can make trigger happy nomination to scare new editors like Muvindu Perera." And nobody actually cares whether this new editor will ever get any welcome message. As he hasn't got till now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Muvindu_Perera 2A03:4A80:7:41A:C133:7604:7EE8:C2D8 (talk) 08:15, 3 May 2016 (UTC)