Kirill Lokshin (talk | contribs) →[[Template:User WP Anime]]: Thanks |
Tijuana Brass (talk | contribs) Help keeping an eye on an abusive user |
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::::Out of curiosity, I recall that the German solution at one point included a provision to move WikiProject boxes to project-space (e.g. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Userbox]]). Has this been taken out? [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill Lokshin]] 20:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC) |
::::Out of curiosity, I recall that the German solution at one point included a provision to move WikiProject boxes to project-space (e.g. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Userbox]]). Has this been taken out? [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill Lokshin]] 20:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC) |
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== Help keeping an eye on an abusive user == |
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I recently ran across a number of personal attacks, via talk pages, hidden comments in articles, and edit summaries, by {{vandal|Machchunk}} (take a quick look at his recent contributions for an idea of the latter) and gave him a two day block for violating [[WP:NPA]]. Within two hours of the end of his block, he was back at it, albeit at a slower pace. I don't like to be the only admin passing out warnings (and when necessary, blocks) to a user, so if a couple others wouldn't mind keeping an eye on his contributions for the next few days to see if he shapes up, that'd be helpful. Thanks. <b>[[User:Tijuana Brass|<span style="color: #FF4500; font-family: Times New Roman; font-variant: small-caps;">Tijuana Brass</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tijuana Brass|¡Épa!]]</sup></b> 20:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:54, 25 July 2006
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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Community ban on User:Hogeye
User:Hogeye was blocked for a month for disruption on anarchism related articles. Since then he has been consistently and almost on a daily basis (although with notable and lengthy lulls) been using open proxies to evade his block. Ideally I'd like to see a ban and indefinite block put in place, but I'd settle for something that we don't have to reset the block every couple of days :)
20:15, 7 July 2006, Sarge Baldy (Talk) blocked Hogeye (contribs) (expires 20:15, 7 August 2006) (Unblock) (resetting due to ban evasion)
See the category here. Note that most of these are not sockpuppets in the conventional sense, but just open proxies that are being used to circumvent his block. - FrancisTyers · 10:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- I spent most of my time on wikipedia yesterday reverting Hogeye's sock edits at Anarchism, so I am fully supportive of this proposal. Their socks also reverted changes I made to other articles recently, including this page, making three personal attacks in the process: [1], [2], [3] and [4]. This user constantly evades blocks and edits disruptively, and it's about time they get banned permanently. The Ungovernable Force 18:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- As the one who protected the Anarchism article for a month while trying to make Hogeye discuss his changes (before the first month-long block), I would not oppose it. --cesarb 02:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- They have a new sock: User:Drowner.--The Ungovernable Force 02:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- <sarcasm>Oppose; useful method for finding more open proxies to block.</sarcasm> Mackensen (talk) 02:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: They will still use open proxies even after they are banned permanently, so it won't keep you from finding more. The Ungovernable Force 02:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Oh, sorry. It's sometimes hard to tell sarcasm in type. It was funny though. The Ungovernable Force 02:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Concerning User:haham hanuka
I removed part of this users userpage becuase,imho, it violated the guideline at Wikipedia:User page (Personal statements that could be considered polemical, such as opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia) ; please also have a look here. I consider a block. Any comments? Lectonar 14:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Given the translation (which I had been waiting for before taking further action on this), I strongly support the removal of the material. There's no need for a block at this time, but the user should definitely not re-add the material. -- SCZenz 21:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- The content has just been deleted through a formal procedure and he readds as if the community wasn't here. He should be blocked, as he has done this many times before and he was warned about his disrespect for our community decisions many times before. gidonb 22:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, the was deleted at his request, not because of the MfD—and he hoped that adding it to his user page instead would be a compromise. It's clear the community wants it gone, even from his user page, so that isn't acceptable. But at this time, it has been removed from his userpage by Lectonar and not-readded; as long as he doesn't restore the material anywhere, no further action is necessary. -- SCZenz 16:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- The content has just been deleted through a formal procedure and he readds as if the community wasn't here. He should be blocked, as he has done this many times before and he was warned about his disrespect for our community decisions many times before. gidonb 22:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with SCZenz: a block isn't appropriate at this time. There is a difference between re-adding because he's in a fight and re-adding after he's gotten multiple sets of administrative eyes. In the former case, the slow-ish dispute resolution process would need to take place. In the latter case, it's sort of a different set of offenses that can justify a block more quickly. (No, I'm not lawyering. I'm suggesting that the user can misunderstand some things, but not others.) Geogre 14:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
From what I can see, the page was deleted through a regular procedure with which he agreed. In the meantime he has been blocked for a week for serious trolling on other AfDs. gidonb 17:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Deir Yassin
Guy Montag banned from Battle of Deir Yassin (1)
Per the terms of his probation, Guy Montag has been banned from editing Battle of Deir Yassin/Deir Yassin Massacre for disruptive editing, soliciting votes on a requested move, and incivility on the article's talk page. Any dissenting administrator may repeal this ban as necessary. Ral315 (talk) 16:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think that he was doing anything innappropriate on that page, I think the block should be lifted.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Votestaking is inappropriate. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 05:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I really haven't seen any evidence that what Guy was doing was in fact votestacking at all. I personally voted in that article because it was on my watchlist, I think everybody kinda voted at once because they might have been waiting to see what other people's opinions were. I think that it is ridiculous that Guy is being banned for something that almost everybody does when there is a vote going on, after all I wonder how so many people that voted "support" found out that there was a survey going on at that particular moment especially when so many people had never edited the article in question before? That "votestacking" probably occured through E-mail.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, this is a controversy to which you are a party, and your "judgment" that votestaking has occurred, it must be said, is subjective. Did you review this decision with another, impartial admin? --Leifern 17:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- If you have a look at the admin who made the first post of this section, you would have had your answer already, and as such, I consider this a act of bad faith. Furthermore, see, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Guy_Montag, you will see I reported him, but did not do the ban. As such, an uninvolved admin has reviewed it, and come to the same conclusion. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, you were the one who imposed the ban, see [5], so I'm not sure why the question is in bad faith. --Leifern 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- So, you say I did this: [6]. Excuse me, what I did was positing the tag on the page AFTER he was banned. That is all. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, you were the one who imposed the ban, see [5], so I'm not sure why the question is in bad faith. --Leifern 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- If you have a look at the admin who made the first post of this section, you would have had your answer already, and as such, I consider this a act of bad faith. Furthermore, see, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Guy_Montag, you will see I reported him, but did not do the ban. As such, an uninvolved admin has reviewed it, and come to the same conclusion. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, this is a controversy to which you are a party, and your "judgment" that votestaking has occurred, it must be said, is subjective. Did you review this decision with another, impartial admin? --Leifern 17:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim also seems to have a history of using his administrative powers to gain an advantaqge in disputes that he is a primary party to as anyone who was involved with the "Israeli apartheid" mess knows. As someone once said- "Assuming good faith does not mean be stupid".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- She was the one who reported Montag as well. I suppose someone who is on probation is subject to the subjective judgment of any admin, but I think Kim needs to think long and hard about the difference between her role as an editor and as an admin. --Leifern 13:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I was also concerned to see that Kim van der Linde, who is involved in this dispute, got Guy banned from the page, started a poll about the title, ignored the results of it, then misused her admin tools to move the page against the poll results, then felt obliged to post a tag declaring that Guy is banned from the page. It's up to the admin to do that; maybe he forgot, or maybe he intended not to. I'm worried about the extent to which Kim van der Linde seems to be taking every opportunity to cause a problem for pro-Israel editors, and is consistently confusing her admin/editor roles. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- The ban was undone by User:Briangotts [7]. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Battle of Deir Yassin/Deir Yassin massacre: move poll closure review requested
On June 29, Guy Montag moved ithout discussion Deir Yassin massacre to Battle of Deir Yassin [8], and substantially rewrote the article [9]. This move/rewrite was contensted, see Talk:Battle_of_Deir_Yassin#Total_Rewrite and Talk:Battle_of_Deir_Yassin#Battle???. I was asked to have a look at the move, and decided to start a poll so that everybody could have their say, and could see whether the move was carried by consensus (see: Talk:Battle_of_Deir_Yassin#Requested_move). The poll started at July 8, and by July 12, there was a clear consensus that the name should be Deir Yassin massacre. At 12 and 13 July, Guy Montag allerted 5 editors, with known preferneces, on the poll, who all voted in the days after in favour of the by Guy Montag preferred name: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]. Based on this, I reported him here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Guy_Montag, which resulted in an independent admin to ban him from the page under his probation from a previous ArbCom case (see above). After that, I have closed the move poll, which was now corrupted by votestaking, and based my conclusion from before the votestaking (roughly 4 days into the poll), which was in favour of moving back. The final tally was no consensus (15-15 (12+3 to Deir Yassin incident), which indicates that the original contested unilateral move was not supported by the community. As suchm, I have moved the article back to the original name.
As I have been involved, I request that this move is reviewed by independent admins, and undone if they come to a different conclusion. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 05:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- The page has been moved back in the meanwhile by involved editors, however, I will move the page back if there is no objection of uninvolved admin's of the decision I described above. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 12:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is what you did on the Israel apartheid page(s): you moved pages using admin tools, even though you were directly involved in the dispute. Also, your accusations of vote-stacking could amount to no more than like-minded people arriving because they agreed with what was being done. Admins are not allowed to use their tools to gain an advantage in a dispute they're involved in. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- The incident SlimVirgin points at has been discussed here, seeWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive109#Admin_protecting.2C_then_editing_article. The votestaking was confirmed by an uninvolved admin, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Guy_Montag. For the rest, I have posted my action here for review by uninvolved admins as it could be disputed, and if an univolved admin concludes that the move is invalid, I will move it back without hestitation. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 18:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have no involvement in this, and I have concluded that the move was invalid, because you're involved in the dispute but used an admin tool to make the move. You acknowledged that you were involved in the dispute when you asked another admin to ban Guy Montag from the page. Therefore, please undo the move, and leave it for someone who has no connection with the article to decide how to proceed. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I do not consider you uninvolved due to our disagreements at various other Israel-Palestine related articles, and the ongoing ArbCom case here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Israeli_apartheid. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 18:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, you're well out of order. You don't make me involved just because you choose to say so. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
You shouldn't have moved it yourself, however it should be moved back. - FrancisTyers · 18:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved back to the original name Deir Yassin massacre or moved back from my move to the Battle of Deir Yassin? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved back to Deir Yassin massacre. But you shouldn't do it and you shouldn't have done it. - FrancisTyers · 19:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I will not do it myself, but leave it to another admin to do it. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved back to Deir Yassin massacre. But you shouldn't do it and you shouldn't have done it. - FrancisTyers · 19:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved back from your move. Please undo whatever it was you did. You posted for input, and you've been given input. Kindly don't ignore it. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is nothing to undo at the moment, as the page has been reverted back to Battle of Deir Yassin. However, the move revert war that has ensued may require further consideration, maybe even by the ArbCom. Pecher Talk 19:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved back from your move. Please undo whatever it was you did. You posted for input, and you've been given input. Kindly don't ignore it. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no involvement in this dispute and I don't remember ever editing pages on the Middle-East - but I do have some experience carrying out moves requested on WP:RM. I think that Kim van der Linde should not have closed the debate herself, having taken part in it. In spite of that, having spent some time looking into this, I agree with her analysis. The vote solicitation by Guy Montag clearly tainted the vote. His original move was objected to almost immediately. The user is on probation for biased editing on articles of this kind. This all seems to speak fairly clearly to moving the article to the name it had at its creation and which it still had last month. I've seen no rebuttal to this - can anyone offer one? Sarah? Haukur 20:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Haukurth, I have no opinion about the title, and don't know anything about the arguments. My only concern is that we're calling an editor's attempt to get help from other editors "vote-stacking," when editors are in fact encouraged to involve other people in disputes and polls. Had he posted to 50 talk pages, I can see the grounds for concern, but five seems legitimate enough to me, and the fact that he was doing it openly on talk pages is another factor in his favor. There's probably a guideline about this somewhere, so maybe I should look around. I'm also concerned about Kim's comment that "Guy Montag allerted 5 editors, with known preferneces ..." How could she know what these editors' preferences were regarding what to call the Deir Yassin battle/massacre, if they hadn't already commented on it; and if they had already commented, then why is she concerned about their involvement? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Very often you can make a good guess what opinion people will have on a given dispute and selectively contact those you think will agree with you. I know, I used to do this sort of thing back in my move-warring days... In this case Guy was, it seems, 100% successful in contacting the right people. The best way to bring attention to a vote is through noticeboards which anyone can watch. Haukur 20:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but I can think of several others who might have supported who he appears not to have contacted, so there doesn't seem to have been any kind of a concerted effort. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Very often you can make a good guess what opinion people will have on a given dispute and selectively contact those you think will agree with you. I know, I used to do this sort of thing back in my move-warring days... In this case Guy was, it seems, 100% successful in contacting the right people. The best way to bring attention to a vote is through noticeboards which anyone can watch. Haukur 20:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Francis and Haukur, I recognize that I should not have moved the article myself, but should have brought it to the attention of this noticeboard to start with. My judgement error on that part. My appologies for that. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Given that you did exactly the same thing on various pages related to Israeli apartheid (four times, I believe), and seeing the amount of trouble it has caused, it's hard to see how you could make the same mistake again and not realize. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- See this log for the moves in question. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The page should be moved back, and the move poll be taken there. Anyone else want to do it? - FrancisTyers · 20:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I really haven't seen any evidence that what Guy was doing was in fact votestacking at all. I personally voted in that article because it was on my watchlist. I think that it is ridiculous that Guy is being banned for something that almost everybody does when there is a vote going on, after all I wonder how so many people that voted "support" found out that there was a survey going on at that particular moment especially when so many people had never edited the article in question before? That "votestacking" probably occured through E-mail.
On another note, Kimv really seems to have an issue with using his administrative powers to gain an advantage in a dipute that he is a primary party to, while it is a step forward that he just admitted that he shouldn't have done it, I really must question his veracity considering the fact that in another post above he basically said that he didn't act inappropriately because people weren't "assuming good faith" whatever that means.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, I think this is the type of situation that Wikipedia:Naming conflict (originally developed by Ed Poor and myself) was written to resolve. The guideline states that "Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis." It sets out three key principles, the most important of which is "The most common use of a name takes precedence."
- Note that the issue of POV naming is specifically excluded from consideration by the guideline - if a subject is particularly contentious, there will almost always be someone who disagrees with the article title. The guideline sets out the use of objective criteria, such as frequency of use, and discourages the use of subjective criteria, such as political acceptability.
- The name "Battle of Deir Yassin" seems to be virtually unknown (only 81 Google hits) while "Deir Yassin massacre" seems to be much more widely used (21,100 Google hits - Wikipedia entries excluded in both cases). Using a novel term for a well-known historical incident seems to me to be a classic example of impermissible original research ("defining new terms"). Unfortunately it appears that the POV-pushers have taken over on this article; I think the page's move permissions will need to be locked and the case referred for arbitration. -- ChrisO 23:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is exactly the kind of title that shouldn't be decided by a Google search, in my view, because of the number of highly POV sites that get included. What I do with contentious titles is try to find out what mainstream academics call it. Maybe that could be done here: try to find out what academic historians refer to it as? SlimVirgin (talk) 23:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- If it's any help, I just did a Google Books search for the two terms. 56 books use "Deir Yassin massacre" and only one uses "Battle of Deir Yassin" (citing "a motion [which] was put before the Jerusalem city council to honor the five Zionist patriots who "had fallen during the battle of Deir Yassin"." - the motion failed after a public outcry.) 142 books use the terms "Deir Yassin" and "massacre" in close proximity. Google Scholar returns 51 articles using "Deir Yassin massacre" and none at all using "Battle of Deir Yassin". All of the encyclopedia entries that I've found relating to Deir Yassin refer to the "massacre" at "Deir Yassin" (cites: Brewer's Dictionary of Modern Phrase and Fable, A Dictionary of Contemporary History - 1945 to the present, A Dictionary of Political Biography, The Crystal Reference Encyclopedia). None refer to it as a "battle".
- So it seems that the term "Battle of Deir Yassin" is not only little used but is associated with a specific, highly controversial POV - rather akin to calling the Srebrenica massacre the "Battle of Srebrenica", as some denialists are wont to do in that case. This seems a very clear-cut case of a non-mainstream term being adopted for presumably POV reasons. -- ChrisO 23:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- You seem to have made a watertight case from a NPOV so unless anyone can find and equally strong verifiable rebuttal, this should be accepted, and the contention should cease. Naturally what people think it should be called is pure OR and irrelevant. We are looking for the commonly accepted term, the principle of least surprise. Tyrenius 01:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- A "watertight case"? Are you serious? All he did was illustrate a pov, its not like someone can say that hey you can't disagree with him, can;t you see that my side has already made a watertight case? Anyways it is irrelevent what the majority of people call the incident, what matters is that we chose a title that does not favor any pov, I am not saying that "battle of Deir Yassin" is completly npov I am just saying that the "Deir Yassin Massacre" really isn't npov either.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
All right, I'll go ahead and move the page back, citing this discussion. Haukur 08:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just a suggestion, you might want to move protect the page after that to avoid a new move war. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 08:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'd prefer if someone else did that. Haukur 09:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I do not believe a move war is forthcoming Kim as long as you stay out of it. I reverted your initial move because of your completely unacceptable behaviour there. If Guy Montag's initial move was done without consensus, then it should have been reverted, and done so swiftly. You starting a poll on the matter, rejecting the legitimacy of the results when they failed to go your way, and then making an out of process move however, was farcical, especially given your current involvement in an ArbComm case on this very same matter. The move war was not the result the intractability of the issue, but rather a response to your complete lack of standing to make the aforementioned move. This entire move war could have been avoided if you had bothered to act in a way even vaguely resembling what is to be expected of admins. Protecting the page is thus likely unnecessary, as without your involvement in the move, I do not expect there to be serious objection to the page remaining there while debate continues on the talk page. Bibigon 11:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that the important thing here is that KimvdLinde stays away from the situation completely. I would also suggest we try to find out what academic historians call it i.e. academics who are currently employed as historians by universities. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'd also suggest this discussion not be split up. For some reason, it's been started on AN too. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#What_to_do_if_a_move_poll_is_determined_by_partisan_reasons.3F. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just to let people know, I'm proposing to start a workshop along the lines of the ArbComm workshops to work through the specific policy issues involved (e.g WP:NC, WP:NCON, WP:NOR etc). The workshop will be at Talk:Deir Yassin massacre/Workshop later today. Hopefully it'll help to identify the specific points of disagreement, provide some advice on what the policies and guidelines require, and focus the discussion on policies rather than personal POVs. I suggest we continue this discussion there. -- ChrisO 13:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- ChrisO, you've protected the page against moves, and on the version you prefer. You're involved in the dispute and you're currently in front of the arbcom for using your admin powers in another content dispute. Please undo the protection. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- If you feel it's inappropriate, please feel free to unprotect it. I've had no involvement in editing or moving the article, and my only involvement to date has been in providing pointers to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, providing some data on usage and trying to help the parties to find a resolution. If you (or any other administrator) feel that makes me too close to the issue to legitimately move-protect the page, then please unprotect it. -- ChrisO 13:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Chris, you're involved in the dispute, and we're not allowed to use admin powers where we're involved, especially not to gain any kind of advantage, and given you suggested the page be moved back to the version you prefer, and then protected it, that's what you've done. I'm not prepared to unprotect it and be accused of wheel warring, so I'm requesting that you do. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- In that case, OK. -- ChrisO 13:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, I appreciate that. I hope everyone will leave it where it is now until a consensus is reached. Your workshop idea is a good one. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll make sure I notify people when I've got the workshop prepared. You're very welcome to offer advice and views (on my talk page if you don't wish to get directly involved). Given your experience in dealing with controversial issues, I'd certainly value your advice on the policy issues. -- ChrisO 18:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
If Kim needs to "stay away from the situation completely", as Slim suggests, then so should Slim, myself and ChrisO. However, I don't see the point in delaying this - Guy Montag changed a long-established article name without consensus. His user page, User:Guy Montag identifies him as a supporter of the Irgun, the Revisionist Zionist armed militia identified as perpetrating the massacre so his interest in choosing an equivicating title for the article is clear. If a Stalinist tried to retitle "Katyn Forest Masscare" to "Battle of Katyn Forest" we would not permit it, even if he was able to rally the support of his friends in a poll. Homey 17:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, you're not going to play that game with me. I have no involvement in this content dispute, and while I have no intention of becoming involved, I'm also not going to stay away from it because it would please you. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- You have a systemic POV when it comes to articles related to Israel so you are not neutral in this matter even if you haven't explicilty addressed content. I was not asking you to stay away from the article (you are projecting your habit onto me, it seems) - rather I'm saying you are in no position to dictate to Kim that she should stay away from it.Homey 18:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Could the three of you please stop ragging on each other? It's incivil, inappropriate and definitely not in the right place. It's certainly not going to resolve anything! -- ChrisO 18:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
What to do if a move poll is determined by partisan reasons?
- (Copied from Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#What_to_do_if_a_move_poll_is_determined_by_partisan_reasons.3F)
I'm rather troubled by the problems which KimvdLinde has reported over at WP:ANI#Battle of Deir Yassin/Deir Yassin massacre: move poll closure review requested. As I've posted there, the article's current title of "Battle of Deir Yassin" violates Wikipedia:Naming conventions, Wikipedia:Naming conflict and Wikipedia:No original research (it's a novel term with negligible use outside Wikipedia - only 81 hits versus over 21,000 for the alternative "Deir Yassin massacre"). It also probably violates Wikipedia:NPOV, as it seems to be a novel and minority-POV term for an historical incident which is generally known by a different name. (It's comparable, for instance, to renaming Srebrenica massacre to "Battle of Srebrenica" or American War of Independence to "War of American Aggression".)
In the light of these issues I would normally simply move the article myself. However, the page has already had a move war today and sparking another wouldn't be helpful. Ordinarily, a move poll would be a good alternative. However, there has already been a move poll in which the participants deadlocked, with many on both sides explicitly stating POV reasons for their votes (see Talk:Deir Yassin massacre#Clarification). There seems to have been relatively little consideration of what Wikipedia policy and guidelines require. Starting a new move poll would undoubtedly bring out the POV warriors again and, unfortunately, it's more than likely that they will again ignore policy and vote for their personal POVs. Are there any other alternatives short of taking the whole thing to the Arbitration Committee? -- ChrisO 23:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm, this is why voting in the main namespace is a bad plan. :-/ Each time people have to find out the hard way. <sigh> Requested Moves should be strongly discouraged as a means for well, anything. Oh well.
- Perhaps something can still be salvaged? You can look at who is supporting and opposing, and start a discussion with each, one at a time. Perhaps a more neutral name is possible? Kim Bruning 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I've found in instances like this (Republic of Macedonia comes to mind) that POV warriors usually won't agree to anything other than their own POV. Am I right to think that the Mediation Committee can't do binding mediations? Perhaps this is where we need some sort of intermediate stage between the Mediation Committee (non-binding) and Arbitration Committee (binding but not usually dealing with content disputes). We really need to have some way of dealing with these disputes that would involve taking them away from the POV warriors and giving them to neutral editors or administrators who know, understand and respect Wikipedia policies. -- ChrisO 00:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Although formal mediation isn't binding, I think most editors would respect the conclusions of it. I think the key in this case is to use the term most often used by academic historians i.e. academics who are actually employed as historians by universities. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- The quick and dirty method is to attract as many uninvolved editors as quickly as possible, because POV warriors work by fighting in packs and outnumbering their opponents. But polls like that are almost always confrontational, so it would be better to try some form of mediation (formal or informal) as Kim suggested. Even if it fails then it's something to show to other users who can determine for themselves what caused it to fail, if it's because someone wasn't cooperating then that will be detrimental to them. A good first step would be to do a survey of the academic literature to see what name is more commonly used, Google is unlikely to settle this one. --bainer (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion. I've done a quick check on the literature using Google Books/Google Scholar, Amazon's "search inside" feature and a number of encyclopedias on Xreferplus. It almost exclusively refers to the events at Deir Yassin as the "Deir Yassin massacre", the massacre at Deir Yassin and similar formulations. None use "Battle of Deir Yassin". So it seems plain enough that the article's current title is a novel term. The problem is, of course, that the POV warriors don't care about WP:NOR, WP:NC and all the rest. Mediation is certainly appropriate though I wonder if it's ever likely to work in a situation where the participants are riding roughshod over Wikipedia's fundamental policies. I suspect it'll probably end up in arbitration, one way or another. -- ChrisO 07:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I thionk is a main problem for wikipedia, as the focus is consensus and prevention of disruption, and not so much upholding basic policies (Such as NPOV of which Jimbo states: NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."). However, in practise, NPOV is negotiated, just as other unnegotiable policies such as WP:NOR. The bigger question is, can these policies be enforced, or are they negotiable? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 09:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim Bruning is right. Discussion is the solution. As an experienced mediator, Kim is likely picking up on the fact that you are in too big of a hurry to settle the dispute. Having an article in the The Wrong Version is going to happen for some of the parties in the dispute. Mediators (and experienced editors) need to reinforce the idea that Wikipedia is not going to be ruined by having an article in the The Wrong Version. IMO, mediation goes astray once you began reverting or making moves based on the idea that there is a wrong version. Patience and discussion are mediation's friend. : - ) FloNight talk 10:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Does this mean that unnegotiable policies are negotiable? And if mediation is not working because people insist on violating NPOV, ArbCom? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 11:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- The problem here is that you hold a particular POV, you got involved in the dispute, you got an editor banned from the page, and then you moved the page as an admin, so that has helped to entrench positions and increase hostility and suspicion. It would be a good idea if you would remove yourself from the debate entirely and allow the matter to be discussed by editors who were not involved in it. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, your opinion about me is clear. Thank you. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 11:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- It isn't just my opinion. I don't see that you have any support for what has gone on here. You've caused trouble first at Israeli apartheid and now here by acting as an editor/mediator/admin as and when it suits you, mixing up the roles in pursuit of a particular POV. It's a textbook example of what admins shouldn't do, and yet at the same time you take process fetishism to new heights when you think it'll help you. It's not on, it really isn't. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- For those uninvolved, SlimVirgin and I are both involved in the same ArbCom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, I am barely involved in that case, whereas you are at the center of it, and it's a case involving exactly the same problems as here: your confusion of roles. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I urge the interested editors to have a look for themselves at the ArbCom case before the decide what is going on. I am not going to drag the extended discussions from there to here. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim, I am barely involved in that case, whereas you are at the center of it, and it's a case involving exactly the same problems as here: your confusion of roles. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- For those uninvolved, SlimVirgin and I are both involved in the same ArbCom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- It isn't just my opinion. I don't see that you have any support for what has gone on here. You've caused trouble first at Israeli apartheid and now here by acting as an editor/mediator/admin as and when it suits you, mixing up the roles in pursuit of a particular POV. It's a textbook example of what admins shouldn't do, and yet at the same time you take process fetishism to new heights when you think it'll help you. It's not on, it really isn't. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, your opinion about me is clear. Thank you. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 11:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- The problem here is that you hold a particular POV, you got involved in the dispute, you got an editor banned from the page, and then you moved the page as an admin, so that has helped to entrench positions and increase hostility and suspicion. It would be a good idea if you would remove yourself from the debate entirely and allow the matter to be discussed by editors who were not involved in it. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Does this mean that unnegotiable policies are negotiable? And if mediation is not working because people insist on violating NPOV, ArbCom? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 11:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kim Bruning is right. Discussion is the solution. As an experienced mediator, Kim is likely picking up on the fact that you are in too big of a hurry to settle the dispute. Having an article in the The Wrong Version is going to happen for some of the parties in the dispute. Mediators (and experienced editors) need to reinforce the idea that Wikipedia is not going to be ruined by having an article in the The Wrong Version. IMO, mediation goes astray once you began reverting or making moves based on the idea that there is a wrong version. Patience and discussion are mediation's friend. : - ) FloNight talk 10:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Kim van der Linde at venus I mean that impartial experienced editors do no care if the articles is temporarily The Wrong Version. This dispute is one of many daily editing disputes that occur on Wikipedia. You are involved in it so it seems extra important to you. If I can make a suggestion. I think you need to take a break from this topic. Perhaps some distance from these articles will help. There are 1,261,193 articles in English. Many of them are in desperate need of editing by an experienced editors/admin. FloNight talk 12:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- FloNight, I share your opinion about "the wrong version". -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
"Kim, I am barely involved in that case, whereas you are at the center of it, and it's a case involving exactly the same problems as here: your confusion of roles. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)"
- This is a misrepresentation. Slim is one of the admins against whom sanctions are being proposed - Fred Bauder proposed a one month ban - there have been no action proposed against Kim, nor is she accused of having participated in the wheel war that has gotten Slim in trouble. Homey 17:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Homey, quit it. You and Kim van der Linde have caused the entire dispute at Israeli apartheid, and you kept it going at maximum heat and intensity, because that's how you get your kicks at Wikipedia. I've never seen such disregard for the rules about using admin tools between the pair of you. The evidence hasn't yet closed, by the way, and I'm not going to argue it out with you here, because it would make your day. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Slim, you brought up the arbcomm case and misrepresented it by claiming that Kim was "central" to it while you are "barely involved" when in fact you are facing sanctions and she isn't. As for "disregard for the rules about using admin tools", you are the one who participated in a wheel war, not Kim (or myself) so stop deflecting (or projecting). Homey 17:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Homey, quit it. You and Kim van der Linde have caused the entire dispute at Israeli apartheid, and you kept it going at maximum heat and intensity, because that's how you get your kicks at Wikipedia. I've never seen such disregard for the rules about using admin tools between the pair of you. The evidence hasn't yet closed, by the way, and I'm not going to argue it out with you here, because it would make your day. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is a misrepresentation. Slim is one of the admins against whom sanctions are being proposed - Fred Bauder proposed a one month ban - there have been no action proposed against Kim, nor is she accused of having participated in the wheel war that has gotten Slim in trouble. Homey 17:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- When in fact you are facing sanctions and she isn't
- Are you serious? I'm sure that not even you can actually believe that that makes sense, You proposed a bunch of wierd and inappropriate "solutions" that nobody supported and then you claim that that shows that Slim is more involved with the dispute than you or Kim. The fact that there isn't a bunch of stupid proposals involving you and kim really just shows that other people aren't as spiteful or inappropriate as the two of you. I guess the fact that there is nothing on that page that explicity calls for your adminship to be taken away and for you to be banned must show that you are a completely neutral and uninvolved party or at least that you did nothing inappropriate at all in that conflict, is that right?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, this really is my last comment. No sanctions have been proposed against Kim because no evidence has been put up about her yet. Only half the evidence is in, Homey. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, Homey, please lay off. Ragging on SlimVirgin only gets us deeper. Fred Bauder 18:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, this really is my last comment. No sanctions have been proposed against Kim because no evidence has been put up about her yet. Only half the evidence is in, Homey. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Guy Montag banned from Deir Yassin massacre (2)
Nay one quarter of a moon has passed, and I've banned Guy Montag from Deir Yassin massacre under the terms of his probation. Inserting copyvio information from here and general tendentious editing on the talk page.
I'm not particularly attached to this, but I thought it was the right thing to do. I have encouraged him to appeal if he feels he has been wronged. - FrancisTyers · 00:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
You've lost all sense of proportion and ruined an article over a non issue.
Guy Montag 01:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think I've ruined the article :/ And I don't think you should be describing copyright violation as a "non issue". As I have mentioned, perhaps I was hasty but I think under the circumstances it was the right thing to do. You initially claimed that it was "one sentence", but have since discovered it was several paragraphs. I think you were a bit hasty in your initial response :) - FrancisTyers · 01:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Note: given an initially incorrect reading of his probation, the ban was set to end at "22 July 2007", this as been amended to "9 October 2006". Apologies for this mistake. - FrancisTyers · 01:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think it clearly inflames a situation that was almost over by re-banning Guy. It was already decided that the previous block was inappropriate, and that Guy's actions did not violate the terms of his probation. I am rather uncomfortable with the fact that you would ban Guy for such a similar infraction, I think your actions amount to a wheel-war and I would recomend that you undo the ban, and first discuss the situation here and with other administrators that were involved in the original dispute above.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Guy has informed me that he will be requesting permission for the use of the copyrighted text. I have asked another couple of admins to check over my ban, and if they disagree then sobeit. I don't think it amounts to a wheel-war. I don't think you can compare the two reasons for banning as "similar infractions". - FrancisTyers · 01:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Francis, as you recently commented on some of the issues on that page on the talk page (as an editor, not as an admin), and as you took the opposite position to Guy, calling his position "farcical," it would probably be better if you unbanned him and allowed an uninvolved admin to take a look at the situation. I've also left a note on your talk page that shows one of the alleged copyright violations wasn't in fact copied at all. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just for the clarity, only a fraction of the copyright violations are reporetd at the talk page. The article is full of it, from at least 3 different websites. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 06:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- It does seem that the article is/was a patchwork quilt of material copied from different places. Whatever we may think of the merits of Guy's version, it's risky for us to have an article appears to be effectively a copy-and-paste from multiple copyrighted sources. The fact that Guy is saying now that he's requesting permission for the use of the copyrighted text is obviously an acknowledgement that he knows he didn't have permission before. As breaches of probation go, I'd say this was at the high end of the scale; the ban seems reasonable in the circumstances. -- ChrisO 08:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the ban per SV's request. If a things worth doing, its worth doing right. I welcome less involved parties than me to review the ban and reapply it if thought appropriate. - FrancisTyers · 12:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- If the article is that much of a convoluted collection of copyvio, the only solution is to delete it completely and rebuild from scratch, IMO. Violating copyright first, and asking for permission later, is NOT acceptable whatsoever. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 02:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have decided that after it was clear that the article is literally loaded with copyvio's, I only will show the evidence for the first three section, and that can be found here: http://www.kimvdlinde.com/wikipedia/Deir_Yassin_Copyright_violation.doc The remaining two sections are done in part, and could be good or bad with regard to the number of copyvio's. What is clear is that the copyvio's are from various websites, and in part from pre Guy Montag, although all new insertions that I found originate from him. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I ahave filed a ArbCom case for this, and the related bised editing here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Deir Yassin. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Trolling by user:ARYAN818 and user:Elven6
Hi - I request administrative action against user:ARYAN818 and user:Elven6 for acting like WP:TROLLs. I had lodged a previous report on ANI[15] that apart from the issuance of warnings and a debate on ARYAN818's username, did not restrain these users from trollish behavior on Talk:Sikhism, Talk:Hinduism and the Sikh Panth and on their own talkpages and the talkpage of user:Sukh. These users have spoken offensively to user:Sukh, User:Rajatjghai, user:Gsingh and myself.
Despite repeated and continuous warnings, both ARYAN818 and Elven6 have repeatedly engaged in revert wars, removing comments from their own talkpages, coming close to WP:3RR violations, repeatedly violated WP:NPA (includings religious, personal, political and racial abuse), WP:CIVIL, WP:NPOV and WP:POINT, and have been acting like WP:VANDALs and WP:TROLLs.
user:ARYAN818
Relevant Diffs (most recent):[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33]
Relevant Diffs (continuous):[34], [35],[36],[37], [38],[39]
user:Elven6
Relevant Diffs (most recent): [40],[41],[42],[43],[44],[45],[46],[47],[48],[49],[50]
Previous Report (continuous):[51], [52], [53],[54]
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hinduization of Sikhism - Elven6 created an article that constituted WP:COPYVIO.
Thank you - I request administrators to take decisive action, as this has been going on for over one month, with a previous ANI report and numerous warnings. This Fire Burns Always 06:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm going to block both of them for 48hrs. Frankly some of the material discussed isn't for me to understand - well I couldn't see anything obvious from the article edits, but some of the talk page edits seem rather bizarre to say the least and some of the knockabout tone and inappropriate language is very disconcerting. Blnguyen | rant-line 06:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Basically Aryan argues from a hard Hindu POV, and Elven is oppposite that. The diffs provided illustrate a combination of revert warring, personal attacks, abusive messaging, vandalism and constant disruption of Wikipedia work. This Fire Burns Always 06:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- This time I ask for really decisive and follow-up action, because several good editors have taken a lot of hell for over a month over several articles. A thousand warnings have not affected these gentlemen, who haven't even acted in a civil manner aside from the disputes. This Fire Burns Always 06:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Having seen both these users (ARYAN818, Elven6), I endorse these blocks. Both of these users spent most of their time in disrupting the articles and attacking other editors, without adding anything fruitful to the articles in question. ARYAN818 has already been blocked several times for his user name, though he claims 818 is just his area code and has no neo-nazi connotations (though his frequent edit-wars in Aryan provide an interesting insight). I suggest other admins keep an eye on the pages referred to above as frequent edit warring continues to foment there. --Ragib 07:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- ARYAN818 should be permanently blocked for his user name. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- His articles of interest (and manner of edit warring) lead me to believe that he is not a neo-Nazi. While this can also be easily faked, his name in the email address he used to write to the unblock mailing list also had "Aryan" as a first name. Maybe he should be blocked for edit warring, but I don't think he should be indef blocked unless he shows more serious behaviour. --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Neo-Nazis use the code number "88" ("HH" = "Heil Hitler". This is a clearly inappropriate user name. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- And Chinese people use "88" as a good luck number. I've seen plenty of people with "88" at the end of their user name (I mean email address and user names outside of Wikipedia, I don't know anyone here IRL), and they're about as Neo-Nazi as I am. I'd never heard of this 88=HH="Heil Hitler" stuff until here (and as a side rant, Buddhists can't show a certain religious symbol because of the damn swastika). And he's not 88, he's 818. Look, I'm not saying that it's not serious, but there is such a thing as too sensitive. This guy is an edit warrior, sure, but looking at his edits, he doesn't strike to me as a neo-Nazi (at least, not yet). That means that he's certainly a good recipient of a block if he's a persistent edit warrior, but it'll take more evidence to indef-block him for having a neo-Nazi username. --Deathphoenix ʕ 04:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- I thought this had been pointed out already, but in the same way that 88 means HH, 818 means HAH, or Heil Adolf Hitler. And there's the tiny matter of the fact that the code is preceded by the word Aryan. If his username was CuteFluffyKitten818 it might be different, but it's not. The claim that it's a common name sounds fishy to me - I've never heard of anyone called 'Aryan', and after going through two disambig links I only managed to find a single person called 'Arya'. --Sam Blanning(talk) 12:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nope, that's the first time I've had that explained to be, and thanks for that. Man, there's a code for friggin' everything these days. --Deathphoenix ʕ 01:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is a tough username issue. I appreciate the argument of ARYAN818 (talk · contribs) regarding his user name (on User talk:ARYAN818). I saw the name on RC patrol a while ago, and was about to indef block for username, but after reviewing contribs, I'm pretty sure he's not making a neo-Nazi reference -- Samir धर्म 01:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I thought this had been pointed out already, but in the same way that 88 means HH, 818 means HAH, or Heil Adolf Hitler. And there's the tiny matter of the fact that the code is preceded by the word Aryan. If his username was CuteFluffyKitten818 it might be different, but it's not. The claim that it's a common name sounds fishy to me - I've never heard of anyone called 'Aryan', and after going through two disambig links I only managed to find a single person called 'Arya'. --Sam Blanning(talk) 12:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- And Chinese people use "88" as a good luck number. I've seen plenty of people with "88" at the end of their user name (I mean email address and user names outside of Wikipedia, I don't know anyone here IRL), and they're about as Neo-Nazi as I am. I'd never heard of this 88=HH="Heil Hitler" stuff until here (and as a side rant, Buddhists can't show a certain religious symbol because of the damn swastika). And he's not 88, he's 818. Look, I'm not saying that it's not serious, but there is such a thing as too sensitive. This guy is an edit warrior, sure, but looking at his edits, he doesn't strike to me as a neo-Nazi (at least, not yet). That means that he's certainly a good recipient of a block if he's a persistent edit warrior, but it'll take more evidence to indef-block him for having a neo-Nazi username. --Deathphoenix ʕ 04:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Neo-Nazis use the code number "88" ("HH" = "Heil Hitler". This is a clearly inappropriate user name. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I will study the matter and shall offer my comments within two to three days. Prima facie, I find that the two users concerned do not care for the guidance and comments of fellow-wikipedians. This is not a good sign. --Bhadani 17:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Being referred to by name again
"Ryulong! you are not Moot, stop changing other peoples edits." Does this count as a personal attack, too? Ryulong 23:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- All of these are vandalism, but please don't look for the NPA policy. It's not needed, in the first place, and we all take chances when we edit Wikipedia. The gibbering on the talk page and the random edit warring is sufficient for intervention without trying to assess whether or not a person has been insulted. Geogre 02:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
User RJ evading ban
Warning: Due to the complexity of this case the following entry is not concise. My apologies.
Background Information
This notice concerns RJII, a user who has been banned indefinately for a series of wiki violations and his own eventual admission of intent to abuse. Vision Thing is a user whose first edit occured on March 19, 2006. Because his first edit was to immediately initiate a discussion on a topic which had recently been the focus of user RJII, he was soon accused by user AaronS of being a sockpuppet. User Infinity0 also suspected Vision Thing of being a sockpuppet, and requested a checkuser. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the RJ "project", as user Logical2u said on the checkuser page, "all accounts by the RJII "team" will likely be undectable and un-check-user-verifiable, due to "home" computers, etc."
Due to lack of evidence from usercheck, the case appears to have been dropped. However, I believe that subsequent edits by user Vision Thing have more than demonstrated, via circumstantial evidence, his intimate connection to RJII. Unfortunately this is the only kind of evidence that could be applied to this case. I have compiled an extensive list of identical edits made by user RJII and Vision Thing. Please note that in my time searching dozens of articles edited by these two accounts I never found a single instance in which either editor reverted or even openly disagreed with one another, despite a tendency by both accounts to engage in edit wars and reverts. When I eventually became certain of Vision Thing being a sockpuppet I attempted to inform twice. Despite making several other edits on his talk page in the meantime, both my attempts remain ignored.
Evidence of Vision Thing and RJ being the same user
As evidence I would first like to note RJII's repeated insistance on indicating that the writers of the anarchist FAQ are "social anarchists". This is the very topic that Vision Thing first used as a subject of his first edit. The similarity of their edits can be seen from these examples by RJ,
which can be compared with this edit by Vision Thing after RJ was banned: 9 July
Such instances are not isolated. For example, RJ and Vision Thing inserted the same edits concerning David Friedman on medieval Iceland:
Vision Thing has made many of the same edits that RJ was formally known for inserting since RJ's ban. Benjamin Tucker's "capitalism is at least tolerable" is a quote originally introduced into several articles by RJ:
After RJ's ban it has been inserted into articles by Vision Thing in his place: 15 July
Individualist anarchism "reborn", is another quote originally inserted by RJ into the anarchism article:
has since been championed by Vision thing after RJs ban:
Way back in January of 2005 RJ started posting many edits about the "U.S. Postal Service monopoly"
not surpirsingly, after RJ was banned nearly identical edits started coming from Vision Thing
And yet another instance, before his ban RJ inserted the following edit into Anti-capitalism: 15 June After RJs ban Vision Thing once again inserted an identical edit: 25 June
These articles and edits are only a small sample, constrained due to my limits on time. Here is a partial list of more articles that each has contributed to, often making the same or very similar edits. Please feel free to look through them to get an idea of the similarity in tone, style, and point of view: An Anarchist FAQ, Economics of fascism, Anarcho-capitalism, Bryan Caplan, Laissez-faire, Capitalism, Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism, Anarchism in the United States, Template:Socialism, Criticisms of socialism, Talk:Wage labour, Collectivism, Anti-capitalism, Corporatism, Friedrich Hayek, United States Postal Service, Mixed economy, Free market, Property, Altruism, Natural rights, Negative and positive rights, List of anarchists.
In fact, the total number of edits to pages they hold in common is far greater than those to pages they do not. Yet, despite the fact that these two seem to have identical interests, edits, and political viewpoints, they have never engaged in so much as a "hello", with their only contact being to support one another on arbitration issues or deny that they were the same person.
Evidence of violation of wiki policy by Vision Thing beyond circumventing ban
To my knowledge use of a sockpuppet to circumvent a ban is a violation of wiki policy in itself, however I believe there is plenty of evidence that this sockpuppet is also a violation of the rules on:
RJs explicit intentions now carried on in Vision Thing account
It is important to note that when faced with a ban RJ eventually admitted what had previously been obvious to many, that his intent was to use "...advanced techniques of psychological warfare... most importantly, most of our edits were not done through the RJII account but through multiple "sockpuppets" (from a seperate IP(s) for increased security against detection). Hence, the RJII account served largely to wear particular individuals down, pyschologically, who were judged to be enemies."
In admits again to having multiple sockpuppets already prepared and engaged in wikipedia, "In the meantime, the "sockpuppets," who evinced a somewhat amiable personality did not engage in personal attacks and other such disagreeable behavior that may have risked blocks by adminstrators, went about editing the encyclopedia... It is safe now for us to divulge that some of the sockpuppets will continue editing Wikipedia until at least the end of the year."
The edits of RJ and Vision Thing are so nearly identical, and so obviously from the same narrow POV, that it can't helped but be felt that RJIIs intent to be "successful in driving several individuals off of Wikipedia, or away from particular articles, who through their hands up in disgust (probably literally)" is being carried on via the account of Vision Thing. Circumstantial evidence is never certain, but I believe this is as much evidence as one could provide given the difficulty in tracking down all the sock puppets employed by RJIIs account. In the unlikely case that the circumstantial evidence I have compiled does not remove doubt that Vision Thing is a sock puppet of RJ he is at least a Meat Puppet (perhaps in the form of banned user Hogeye who worked closely with RJ in the past). Regardless, Vision Thing is clearly carrying out RJs explicitly stated goals of disrupting wikipedia and gaming the system. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 05:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting analysis. I would tend to concur with you. However as you said, this cannot be proven. I suspect the only thing that can be done in this case is to go through the dispute resolution process and get a similar result to that which was meted out to RJII. You could use the previous two ArbCom judgements against RJII as precedent. - FrancisTyers · 15:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- I should point out that in any case, RJII also appears to be using a series of throwaway accounts to avoid detection. Accounts like User:Antitrust and User:C-Liberal which were registered since he vanished, made a couple of edits (only two in Antitrust's case) to keep his preferred versions in place, and then promptly disappeared seem like classic socks to me. --Aquillion 17:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with the assumption, but nothing can be proven. If his words are any indication, RJII would thrive on this kind of speculation. I'd rather not give him that satisfaction. He can play with this until he's 80 years old, for all I care. I might suggest some professional help, though. --AaronS 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would add to the above: CapitalistAnarchist (talk · contribs), who, somewhat comically, was blindly reverted by Lingeron (talk · contribs) in this edit, where Lingeron reverted three days of edits by ten different people to revert to a version by Vision Thing. Even if we don't assume that Antitrust (talk · contribs), C-Liberal (talk · contribs), and CapitalistAnarchist (talk · contribs) are RJII, it can probably be taken as a given based on usernames and contributions that those three are all one user... and I cannot think of any compelling reason why a user would run through three accounts in such a short time unless they were trying to avoid detection. --Aquillion 17:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Also TheIndividualist (talk · contribs). The Ungovernable Force 22:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would add to the above: CapitalistAnarchist (talk · contribs), who, somewhat comically, was blindly reverted by Lingeron (talk · contribs) in this edit, where Lingeron reverted three days of edits by ten different people to revert to a version by Vision Thing. Even if we don't assume that Antitrust (talk · contribs), C-Liberal (talk · contribs), and CapitalistAnarchist (talk · contribs) are RJII, it can probably be taken as a given based on usernames and contributions that those three are all one user... and I cannot think of any compelling reason why a user would run through three accounts in such a short time unless they were trying to avoid detection. --Aquillion 17:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with the assumption, but nothing can be proven. If his words are any indication, RJII would thrive on this kind of speculation. I'd rather not give him that satisfaction. He can play with this until he's 80 years old, for all I care. I might suggest some professional help, though. --AaronS 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I should point out that in any case, RJII also appears to be using a series of throwaway accounts to avoid detection. Accounts like User:Antitrust and User:C-Liberal which were registered since he vanished, made a couple of edits (only two in Antitrust's case) to keep his preferred versions in place, and then promptly disappeared seem like classic socks to me. --Aquillion 17:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd appreciate another administrator stepping in here. Ever since I took a hard line against User:Israelbeach, I have been targetted by his sockpuppets and friends both on and off the wiki. Israelbeach crossed the lines and is effectively under community ban, but his puppets are still allowed to edit. user:Bonnieisrael is now trying to engage me in another personal edit war. As in: [57] Which I foolishly corrected: [58] And was of course reverted: [59]. I know I have a part in this too, but I'd like to point out Bonnieisrael's history. She was blocked by Slimvirgin as a suspected sockpuppet of Israelbeach, for this sort of behavior and worse. She was unblocked by Jredmond. Jredmond promised Slimvirgin to keep an eye out [60], Slimvirgin said she would reblock Bonnieisrael for continuing this kind of behavior [[61]. Bonnieisrael has since contributed almost nothing but more Israelbeach-type edits. Jredmond has ignored my protests about Bonnieisrael's continued disruptive editing [62]. I'd also like to point out that as an administrator, I could easily block any one of Israelbeach's sockpuppets myself, and I believe I would by fully justified in doing so - but I excercise restraint because I am personally involved. I count on other administrators to use clearer judgment. But mostly I think other administrators can't be bothered to check what these sock/meatpuppets are up to. --woggly 05:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know about the rest of your dispute, but generally it's considered more polite to dispute someone's claim by replying to it saying "That's wrong" than to edit their claim to what you think is correct. --Improv 13:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- And this my impropriety was the only aspect anyone thought worth responding to. Fine. I'm sure Israelbeach will be happy to continue populating Wikipedia with his sockpuppets, including the new baby: User:Jerusalemrose, and make many useful contributions to
his self-promotion campaignwikipedia. I will no longer stand in his way. Heaven forbid, I might be tempted to be impolite again. --woggly 19:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- And this my impropriety was the only aspect anyone thought worth responding to. Fine. I'm sure Israelbeach will be happy to continue populating Wikipedia with his sockpuppets, including the new baby: User:Jerusalemrose, and make many useful contributions to
- Woggly, I've left a note for Jredmond, [63] as he should deal with it in the first instance as the unblocking admin. Please keep me posted, so I know that it's being looked into. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reblocked her indefinitely; on top of her continued involvement in that whole mess, her other contribs have been POV/copyvios/both. I expect Jimbo and/or OTRS will hear about this, but after blowing her second chance I don't expect she'll receive much sympathy.
(Sorry about the delay, Woggly, but I haven't had much time for Wikipedia recently [as evidenced by my contribs].) - jredmond 16:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, JR. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Kelly Martin/B
This list User:Kelly Martin/B is of a concern to me. It appears to be a list of a group of users who have little in common other than that, as far as I can tell, all of us found ourselves in opposition to Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sean Black 2 for one reason or another. That the administrator largely responsible for the creation of this page stated that its purpose was "It is used by myself and certain others to benefit our decision-making processes" [64], so I can only conclude that its sole purpose is to harass and/or intimidate those with whom this administrator disagreed about the RFA in question. BigDT 21:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, I have now listed this page at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion. Please feel free to help build a consensus there as appropriate. BigDT 21:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hahaha, nice guess, but it actually has nothing to do with Sean Black's RFA. That's an interesting correlation you pointed out, though ... Cyde↔Weys 22:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- LOL nevermind, it got a lot bigger since the last time I looked at it :-P Check the page's history though, it's been around since before Sean Black's RFA. --Cyde↔Weys 22:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
And it just got a lot smaller since I last looked, Cyde just deleted it. Meh. the wub "?!" 22:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict: I was also going to post that the page has now been deleted by Cyde. I would still like to know what the intentions were. Refusing to say what it is for and deleting it as soon as anyone outside of your clique finds out about it hampers my ability to assume good faith. -BigDT 22:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't like the fact that people are poking around in my userspace. The purpose of that page is to benefit my ability to make decisions in the best interest of Wikipedia. Just a way of keeping track of people that's more reliable than my memory -- there's a lot of Wikipedians these days and I find that I can no longer manage everything in my head. All it takes to get on there is doing anything that makes you stand out to me -- good or bad, it doesn't matter; being included there doesn't mean I think you're a bad person or anything; it's just a list. I deliberately created it in my user space and at an out of the way location so that it wouldn't be disruptive, but of course someone had to go and make trouble about it. Nice show, people. I suppose I'll move it to my own wiki (which is closed, and I don't give out passwords to many people) where I don't have to worry about people messing with it. Even better, I can put it in a special locked namespace where none of you can see it, either. You should have stopped while you were ahead..... Kelly Martin (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kelly why not just recreate it? There was no basis for the deletion of it and it can be easily restored through proper channels. I'm confused as to why it was deleted in the first place. Having a list of users isn't against any rule. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Recreating it will just disrupt Wikipedia further. If I maintain this list off-wiki, I won't have to deal with the howling -- or at least can ignore it more readily. Kelly Martin (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kelly why not just recreate it? There was no basis for the deletion of it and it can be easily restored through proper channels. I'm confused as to why it was deleted in the first place. Having a list of users isn't against any rule. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's not the explanation you gave for it on IRC. I don't think this after the fact misrepresentation of what the list was for is really helpful. --W.marsh 22:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Good grief. I can't believe we're even having this conversation. You created a list of names that apparantly was based on people you and others had disagreed with. You refused to say what it was for - simply giving a reasonable explanation would have sufficed. When you get caught, somehow it's our fault for "poking around in your user space", whatever that means. Still, rather than provide an explanation, Cyde removes the list. Calling it a list of people that stand out good, bad, or indifferent sounds dubious considering that (1) there were multiple substantial contributors to the list and (2) you added a large block of names from Sean's RFA. Now, you play the "drama queen" card of taking your football and going to your own secret wiki. Honestly, this behavior disturbs me. If everything you were doing was above board, then you would not at all be upset at discussing your actions. BigDT 22:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- No cookies for you this year at Christmas. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's just as well ... I need to cut down anyway ... BigDT 23:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think we're all entitled to know what this is all about. I see other admins adding names to this secret list in user space, then deleting the list (including User:Cyde with the summary "Kill everything"?), and then see my name on it. What is going on? -- Samir धर्म 08:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- No cookies for you this year at Christmas. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- 23:11, 21 July 2006 . . Freakofnurture (Talk | contribs | block) (+1)
- 18:09, 21 July 2006 . . Cyde (Talk | contribs | block) (Kill MFD)
- 18:09, 21 July 2006 . . Cyde (Talk | contribs | block) (rm. another self-add)
- 18:08, 21 July 2006 . . Cyde (Talk | contribs | block) (Nope, you need to earn it.)
- 18:06, 21 July 2006 . . W.marsh (Talk | contribs | block) (I want in!)
- 17:51, 21 July 2006 . . BigDT (Talk | contribs | block) (+mfd1)
- 17:45, 21 July 2006 . . The wub (Talk | contribs | block) (seems like a nice bunch, I want in)
- 13:54, 21 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (add many)
- 15:04, 20 July 2006 . . SPUI (Talk | contribs | block) (apparently I can help by expanding it?)
- 14:20, 20 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (+2)
- 12:11, 20 July 2006 . . Gurch (Talk | contribs | block) (oh, that. So what? I'm entitled to my opinion, no?)
- 10:17, 20 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (why)
- 08:16, 20 July 2006 . . Gurch (Talk | contribs | block) (ehh... what did I do?)
- 18:39, 17 July 2006 . . Cyde (Talk | contribs | block) (Add one)
- 12:45, 14 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (+)
- 22:57, 12 July 2006 . . Freakofnurture (Talk | contribs | block) (1)
- 13:25, 12 July 2006 . . Freakofnurture (Talk | contribs | block) (-rfaf, +humor)
- 11:49, 12 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (+)
- 09:58, 6 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (+)
- 09:57, 6 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (add)
- 10:38, 5 July 2006 . . Freakofnurture (Talk | contribs | block) (+1)
- 12:41, 3 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block) (add)
- 11:30, 3 July 2006 . . Sean Black (Talk | contribs | block) (yeah...)
- 11:17, 3 July 2006 . . Phil Boswell (Talk | contribs | block) (Example user (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)…or should we use User-multi error: no username detected (help).?)
- 11:12, 3 July 2006 . . Freakofnurture (Talk | contribs | block)
- 02:03, 3 July 2006 . . Kelly Martin (Talk | contribs | block)
That's very intimidating intimate, and yet ever so participatory! I'm honoured to grace the list. I think! *Kisses* El_C 09:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I am told I was listed on here, don't I have a right to know what it is? Computerjoe's talk 12:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Damn, that's creepy. I appeared on 6 of July, apparently after my vote on User:Mboverload's RfA. User:Gurch who voted "per me" was added shortly thereafter. I definitely don't like the smell of it. Grue 13:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone! Friendly Assume Good Faith reminder! Contributors to this mysterious subpage should not assume objectors are "making trouble" and that hiding it in some other place somehow hampers the objectors. They should also realize that people like to see who is linking to their user pages, that such curiosity is perfectly normal, and that an unannotated and apparently random list would obviously stand out as a curiosity. Objectors should accept the contributors' explanations at face value unless evidence to the contrary is presented. The idea that this list is just a list of "people of interest" is at least plausible. =) Powers 13:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is that no explanation has been given. If Kelly, Cyde, and others would give an explanation, I would be willing to accept it. BigDT 15:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I find it hard to WP:AGF when one administrator suggests using a {{vandal}} template for the people on the list AND another uses the words "kill everything" in the summary to delete the list. -- Samir धर्म 04:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- If this list really is no big deal, why can't it just be explained? Clearly, we're all itching to know. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 08:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I find it hard to WP:AGF when one administrator suggests using a {{vandal}} template for the people on the list AND another uses the words "kill everything" in the summary to delete the list. -- Samir धर्म 04:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Probably a "Christmas gift" that we can expect after this RfA. ;) - Mailer Diablo 16:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Man, not even 3000 edits and I'm blacklisted. Argh. --Aguerriero (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kelly Martin, I see you are proposing to move this list to your own server. If this is based in the UK, it may be subject to the Data Protection Act; and if in the EU, various directives limiting the use of personal information. Personally, I will assume good faith. If the reason I am on the list is because someone disapproves (or approves for that matter) of something I said, they are welcome to comment on my talk page. Everyone is open to reason, if you catch the right moment. Stephen B Streater 09:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh for fuck's sakes. Really. This is way past the threshold of ridiculous and is now firmly in the territory of the absurd. You're quoting British laws at her?! Ahahahahahaha. --Cyde↔Weys 15:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- It seems you have misconstrued the purpose of my comment. Stephen B Streater 22:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh for fuck's sakes. Really. This is way past the threshold of ridiculous and is now firmly in the territory of the absurd. You're quoting British laws at her?! Ahahahahahaha. --Cyde↔Weys 15:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I see enough people I respect on the list to take my inclusion as a compliment. I do wonder why I'm a Q1 on this list though. What could it all mean? -- Avenue 13:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- OK, fess up, how many of you have a /B page? I have one. NoSeptember 14:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Me too, but at least I was smart enough to make it inaccessible to everyone else. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 15:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Funny, I can view what's there ;) NoSeptember 15:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Me too, but at least I was smart enough to make it inaccessible to everyone else. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 15:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, having such a list of users is very poor taste. I can't think of any "decision-making processes" using current mechanisms which would necessitate lists of users by certain criteria. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 15:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Since this all blew up and blew away over the weekend, and I opposed Sean Black's RfA and am curious, could someone tell me if I was/am/will be on this list? -- nae'blis (talk) 15:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nevermind, thanks, someone filled me in that I was/am. I'm disappointed in Kelly's choice to take this "off-wiki" and refusal to answer simple questions about the intent of such a list. -- nae'blis (talk) 16:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is the list before it was deleted. I am on it, as are several other admins who opposed SB's RfA. I am appalled. Jonathunder 16:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Micoolio101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- M. Burmy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- SirGrant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- ClemMcGann (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Jtdirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Juppiter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Splash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Xoloz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- DragonWR12LB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- mboverload (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Grue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Gurch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) • [65]
- Splash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Rossami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Dragon695 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Xaosflux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Haukurth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- SatyrTN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sockenpuppe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- A. B. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- AaronS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Abcdefghijklm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Aguerriero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Avenue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bhadani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- BigDT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Blnguyen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bucketsofg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Computerjoe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- David D. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Deon555 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Dlyons493 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- El C (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Eluchil404 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Erik the Rude (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Goldom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Grace Note (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Grandmasterka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Grue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Guinnog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Idont Havaname (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- JJay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- JJJJust (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Jonathunder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Kimchi.sg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Kinneyboy90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Knowledge Seeker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Mailer diablo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Matt Yeager (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- MatthewFenton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Nae'blis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- OwenX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Paolo Liberatore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Petros471 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- RandyWang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- RFerreira (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Samir (The Scope) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Samsara (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Shizane (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Silensor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Simetrical (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Stephen B Streater (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Terence Ong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Themindset (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Thumbelina (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Tintin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- William Allen Simpson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- WillMak050389 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Zaxem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
<list snipped, it makes ANI much longer and is totally unnecessary, it's already reproduced elsewhere in userspace> --Cyde↔Weys 17:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I put the list back (above). It belongs here as it is the entire point of discussion. Also, if it is reproduced somewhere else already, please provide a link. Just cutting it from here, not showing where it is reproduced, and fully knowing that nonadmins can't see deleted text appears to me as something to hide, or either way, not a good idea. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: I disagree. I'm on the list and the only way I found out about this was be my periodic check of "what links here". I would not have found out about the AN/I otherwise. --A. B. 12:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Looking through the history of this list, I see that most names, including mine, were added after we Sean Black's RFA. Is this an "enemies list" of people to settle scores with? Jonathunder 17:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm on the list and no one seems to have settled a score with me yet (then again maybe I'm already in trouble and just clueless -- it wouldn't be the first time!). BTW, I never heard of Kelly Martin before this ANI or Sean Black before his RfA. --A. B. 12:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't particularly care what this list was for, but I think it was shockingly clueless of the people involved in making it to put such an unexplained list of editors on-Wiki, delete it when it attracts attention, and then refuse to really talk about its purpose, unless their goal is to create drama. If that was the intent, well-done, otherwise, that was dumb as hell, guys. If this was an "in-joke", or whatever, it was bungled and turned into a disruption by serious cluelessness on the part of those "in" on the joke. Sometimes, Kelly impresses me with her good judgement. This isn't one of those. On the other hand, her reaction of clamming up when the drama starts, instead of defusing it with candid openness, reminds me of Kelly in early January, so I guess that's not surprising. Why not try a different approach to controversy, Kelly? You like drama? -GTBacchus(talk) 17:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, now there's a new version at User:Kelly Martin/Q and if this keeps up, I will seriously reconsider whether I want to stay involved around here. Jonathunder 18:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's your prerogative, but I can't help but think that everything is being seriously overblown. I wish we had an article on Social panic, but we do not, so I'll have to reference Moral panic. When some things have the appearance of secrecy people tend to be inclined to think the absolute worst, no matter how far off the truth that may be. --Cyde↔Weys 18:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Which is why it's pretty much a lot smarter to maintain an impression of openness instead. At some point, you can't control the fact that people tend to react in certain ways, but you can refrain from provoking them. I don't blame people for being people, but I'm disappointed in you Cyde, and Kelly, for not knowing what people are like. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, Cyde, that attempted secrecy causes suspicion. Wouldn't it be best if someone just gave a clear explanation of the purpose of this list? The thing has cabal written all over it, it's no wonder that the listed users are concerned. Canderson7 (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- That page is now merely a mild insult to the reader, and has no edit history. Was it always this way, or has Oversight been used to hide something here? --Philosophus T 06:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Or maybe I should think for a moment, and ask whether it was deleted and then recreated. --Philosophus T 06:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Oleg above. This showed poor judgment from all the people involved in keeping that list. The day wikipedians are voting according to what will make them look good among a click of wikipedia-veterans is a sad day for the community. Just the very notion that someone are keeping lists of "good" and "bad" wikipedians based on how they act and vote on RFA is very destructive to this community, a community based on everyone acting in good faith and according to what they believe will make this encyclopedia better. If I wanted to oppose an rfa because I didn't see the candidate fit as an admin, I should be able to make that oppose vote without any fear of ending up on some list that would haunt me later. Kelly seemed surprised that the existence of this userpage list became known. I think it would be more surprising if it didn't get known, and I bet many people knew about it long before it got blown up here. I just hope nobody made it influence their voting on Sean Black's rfa. But I'm afraid it might have. And that it might influence people in the future. That is not good, and Kelly should realize this. Shanes 18:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed.Voice-of-All 18:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
What is interesting to observe is the tortuous lengths Cyde and Kelly will go to to insist that this was a good, helpful, right, healthy thing to do, and that any upset is definitely not anything whatsoever at all to do with their angelic, prayerful selves, and that it is all everyone else's fault. That this was a stupendous error of judgement (of all those who compiled the original list), whatever its original intent, is plainly obvious; being unable to see that, especially when it is laid out for you in such painful detail, is an elegant corroboration of the judgement error already made. It also has the overtones of those days from primary school when you'd be passing a secret note around under the desks, and the teacher would say "What have you got there, Splash?" and you'd say "Nothing, Sir." as you screwed it into a ball and hid it under your chair. Then, at breaktime, you'd all huddle around the table in the back at the corner, and giggle, guiltily looking over your shoulders to see if any teachers were walking by and, when they caught you, you'd act all righteously indignant in hope you might bluster them into giving up. -Splash - tk 19:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, what's really interesting, to me, is the response. A list like this (and, please note, that I've never approved of it) has as much value as people place in it. Anyone who would let a list like that guide their judgement has already made up their mind. Or, more appropriately, has decided to let that list do their thinking for them. That's abominable. At the same time, anyone on a list who thinks that said list has any relevance to their actions clearly has no idea how a wiki functions. I'm saddened that anyone has placed any stock in this ridiculous affair. That goes for both the people who made the list and the people who ended up on it. The best response from the people on the list would have been to call it idiotic (which it was) and carry on with their lives (which I hope they do). This has been a tawdry affair, both silly and unnecesary, and to exacerbate it further would do very little good and probably a great deal of harm. I suppose if anyone hasn't finished expressing their moral outrage at list compilation they should do it now. Mackensen (talk) 19:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I couldn't care less about my name being on the list, but you must see that this situation is now self-exacerbating. Even if people stop commenting on it (which they won't), there are several things going on that make them feel worse than they already do for being placed on the list. First their oppose votes are roundly dismissed as ridiculous, then the RFA is closed somewhat unconventionally (again devaluing their concerns), and now we have RFA votes like this from Kelly Martin, which barring any other explanation look like a "because you're on my list" vote. This whole thing was built up wrong from the beginning, and it has been beset by unknowns. That clearly has brought out a lot of suspicion and unease in serious editors, amd I don't think it is going to go away readily. Now we just have a list of people have not had their concerns validated, but who ARE having their suspicions validated. --Aguerriero (talk) 00:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- RfA is broken.
- An increasing number of people are voting based on popularity and not based on weather or not candidate will be able to use admin tools responsibly. If there are people who dislike you (for various reasons such as not sharing the same pov etc).
- Incivility on rfas is begining to be a norm even by established users who should known better. An increasing number of RfAs contain evidence of trolling.
- Rfas are failing to serve their purpose. Often oppose votes have nothing to do with the local wikis policies etc which the candidate is expected to enforce.
- --Cat out 14:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- RfA is broken.
This whole discussion is utter nonsense. I can't believe it's going on and attracting so much attention. What Kelly is doing is not strange at all. Wikipedia is a work environment growing larger, more complex, and cumbersome by the day. For veteran Wikipedia editors, it is an increasingly daunting challenge each day to keep track of our peers. If a longtime, active editor such as Kelly Martin finds the need to create some sort of list of users-- a list which makes sense to no one else but helps him/her keep things straight in his/her own head-- no harm is done whatsoever. Similarly, I've found a need to keep a list of editors-- mainly users who edit my subjects of interest-- on my own userpage. It makes no difference if Kelly keeps her list in her user namespace, or in private on a database or document off Wikipedia. I suggest that everyone move past this contentious discussion, and let Kelly get back to working on her sole objective on Wikipedia, which is making the site a more reliable encyclopedia-- paranoid conspiracy theories aside. 172 | Talk 05:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- That I can easily agree to. This debate and my argument above has nothing to do with the list. The list can stay no problem.
- Voting on afds based on a "hatelist" however is disruptive. Adminship does not require people to love you. Its just a mop, a tool just like the ability to edit. It must not be made a big deal.
- --Cat out 16:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Aw, I didn't make the list. Damn. ;P —Nightstallion (?) 10:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Kelly Martin/R
I have blocked Kelly Martin for 24 hours for recreating of the above list, which I speedy deleted, as per my clear warning on her talk page. El_C 02:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am extremely concerned that El C chose to block while he was involved in a conflict with Kelly Martin over this issue. In addition to taking a threatening and confrontational tone, I note that he was one of the individuals listed on Kelly's page. Regardless of whether or not it was appropriate for Kelly to keep such a list, it was definitely not El C's place to threaten and block here. I'm tempted to block El C for wheel warring (deleting and blocking while the issue was being discussed further up this page) and immediately unblock Kelly Martin, but I'm aware of the irony that would lace such a course of action.
- I would encourage a rapid sampling of opinion here and if there is a general agreement Kelly should be unblocked so that she can at least participate in this discussion—and continue to work on Wikipedia, where she has been bloody useful for the last two years. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am pleased to see that El C has reconsidered this block. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I reject that involvement and charges of wheel warring, and I only reverted myself because of you threats to block me. Now I will let you deal with her disruptive conduct and lists. You are contributing to KM's continued abuse of Wikipedia with these list games. El_C 02:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am pleased to see that El C has reconsidered this block. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- On wheel warring—what do you call it when two admins delete and undelete (or delete and recreate) pages, then start blocking? I didn't threaten to block you – nor did I reverse your action – precisely because I didn't feel like getting dragged into a wheel war and firestorm. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I took it as a threat. I deleted the lists in multiple pages; there was no wheel warring over a specific page, and if there was, it was in error. As mentioned, I acted to prevent conflict because no one seemed prepared to stand up to these orchestraded games, but I should not be expected to waste my time on the intricate detail of these. End of story. El_C 18:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps Kelly would, in her profound wisdom and infinite munificence, be willing to grant a boon to the lowly peons and offer some few words of explanation as to the purpose of the lists?
- (I'll point out that "he was one of the individuals listed on Kelly's page" does not necessarily disqualify El_C from enacting blocks; this goes back to that whole hypothetical "If a user picks a fight with every admin, does that mean nobody can block him?" thing.) Kirill Lokshin 02:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- They're pretty much just being created to annoy people at this point. Somehow this is seen as perfectly acceptable behavior... yeah it's pretty silly. I guess it's effective trolling, but it's sad how many people are okay with it. Meh. --W.marsh 02:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The /R list was a list of random users with random colors assigned to them. There was absolutely no meaning to the list that El C deleted. I created it for one express purpose: to see if El C would jerk his knee and attempt to punish me for creating it. Considering that he previously deleted a harmless redirect and a blank page from my user space, I wasn't too surprised that he did. To an extent, this is disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point, but if the extremely minor disruption that this causes exposes a wildly irresponsible admin for who he is, I consider it worthwhile. Kelly Martin (talk) 02:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Heh. Fascinating. I admitt I did not expend a great bit of focused concentration for the precise detail of each component of these games. Naturally, they get the bottom end of my time. Now that should have been predicted by her social experiment! El_C 07:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, now that you've accomplished that, can we have an end to the lists? Kirill Lokshin 03:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see how you made El C look bad. He (presumably) sought to punish you for disrupting Wikipedia with the creations of these lists. Isn't this, by your own admission, exactly what you did, particularly with this last list? You know people find these lists very annoying and yet you continue to make them. Regardless of the rationale behind these lists, you ought to know better. Maybe you (and others) find them funny, but there are many people who want you to just cut it out and act like the mature admin you should be. I, for one, am one of those people. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 02:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) What the heck? You create a disruption to goad an administrator into blocking you and then you are shocked when they take you up on the offer? That's kinda like the boy who repeatedly pokes the dog with a stick and is surprised when he gets bit. If any of us poor little users who don't have your clout were to make such a list and refuse to say what it is for, and continually recreate it when asked not to, I seriously doubt anyone would bend over backwards to defend us. BigDT 02:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- So, basically, Kelly recreated the list in order to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. Mangojuicetalk 03:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't recreate anything. Please check your facts. Kelly Martin (talk) 06:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fine, Perry Mason, you created the list in order to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. Which, of course, makes precisely zero point zero percent difference. --Calton | Talk 11:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't recreate anything. Please check your facts. Kelly Martin (talk) 06:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- So, basically, Kelly recreated the list in order to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. Mangojuicetalk 03:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Interesting lists. I wonder if they're one of those classic "secret list" social experiments. Kim Bruning 02:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC) (And once again, I'm not on them. Argh, no respect these days)
- Seriously! What does a guy have to do to get on a secret list these days, anyway? --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Be careful for what you ask. Sometimes obscurity is a very enviable state. ;-) -- llywrch 03:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Kelly Martin is seeking conflict with these lists, and when admins such as myself issue and enforce warnings on these, admins such as TenofallTrades threaten to wheel war and block me, whilst choosing inaction on the KM front. It looks bad. El_C 02:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I would have stood my ground (I maintain this was a legitimate WP:NOT/POINT block/deletion - no wheel warrning whatsoever) had it not been for TenofallTrades warning. Unlike some, I have work to do on the namespace. There's war in the old country. El_C 03:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Kelly more and more reminds me of Ann Coulter. :) Seriously, her behaviour is clearly silly, but I guess we all need to drop this. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Putting a smiley after a personal attack doesn't make it any less of one. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- LOL, I guess accusing someone of being like Ann Coulter is a personal attack though, huh? --Cyde↔Weys 03:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- More like libel, as far as I'm concerned. Nonetheless, Kelly Martin's self-admitted WP:POINT violation and chaff-throwing distraction notwithstanding, she has still not offered a hint of a breath of a whisp of an iota of an explanation for the original list. Would she care to do so, or does she have any other bits of distraction gameplaying up her sleeve for our entertainment? --Calton | Talk 04:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- LOL, I guess accusing someone of being like Ann Coulter is a personal attack though, huh? --Cyde↔Weys 03:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've answered this question at least three times that I can think of, including at least once on this page (page up a bit to see it). Stop asking it; asking it makes it look like you're posting without being informed of the full circumstances. Kelly Martin (talk) 04:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wrong! you didn't answer the question three times, you gave non-answers three times that gave no actually hint of what they were really for. Saying that they exist only to help you improve wikipedia makes no sense. I do not understand why it is necessary to be so mysterious.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- So in other words, you're alleging that my answers were prevarications (or just lies). Do you believe that I am lying? Kelly Martin (talk) 04:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I never said that they were outright lies, I just said you answered the question without really saying anything. It was a very dodgy sort of answer. How does saying "I'm using the list to help improve wikipedia" explain anything about the actual puropose?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've answered this question at least three times that I can think of, including at least once on this page... Since no such answer appears on this page -- using the definition of "answer" as used by native English speakers -- you'll have to point to the two other locations where you claim to have answered this very simple question. Hint: "Because" is not an actual answer. Oh, and if you don't like being accused of lying -- and you're the one who brought in the possibility, I should point out -- try telling the simple truth instead of working your way through the Big Book of Rhetorical Dodges. --Calton | Talk 11:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Just a few reminders:
- Nothing in Wikipedia policy permits the use of blocking, or any other administrative tool, for "punishment". Tools such as blocking are only permitted to be used for narrow specific purposes to prevent harm to the project. They may not permissibly be used to "teach someone a lesson" or the like. Nor is blocking a form of dispute resolution; it is only a tool to stop damage to the project.
- WP:POINT does not permit blocking except for "egregious disruption". Nothing of the sort occurred here. Also, note that the policy deals with disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, and uses examples such as systematic vandalism. Wikipedia was not disrupted here. Not everything you don't like is a disruption of the project.
- What seems to have occurred here, though, includes a violation of the well-known provision that administrators must not use blocking to gain the upper hand in a dispute. It is generally considered highly suspicious -- or at least in need of detailed and calm explanation -- when an administrator blocks someone they've been in a dispute of any sort with. --FOo 06:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, the blocking function is simply not a toy. This block was wholly inappropriate for a number of reasons outlined above, and also because it appears that hitting the block button is becoming the first action of an admin, and not the last. Steve block Talk 11:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Take the name Kelly Martin out of it. Pretend Kelly Smith takes exactly the same actions (my apologies if there really is someone named Kelly Smith). Kelly Smith, along with some of her friends, creates a list that is apparantly composed mostly of people with whom she disagreed on an RFA. When asked why, she says it is to be used for "decision-making processes". When people express concern at being on the list, she refuses to give a more detailed explanation. After an administrator deletes the list, she recreates it multiple times. After another administrator informs her that she can be blocked for disruption, she creates the list again and then states that her sole purpose in doing so was to goad the administrator into blocking her. Does anyone honestly believe that Kelly Smith would not be blocked for some substantial period of time? This debate is silly - just being an admin doesn't give you the right to troll. BigDT 12:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Your statments asbout the pages recreation have factual errors. --Gmaxwell 13:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- One can not ignore the fact that it is Kelly Martin, since the fact that it is Kelly Martin is central to the debate. Many other admins and users have such lists, I see none of them being treated in a similar manner. The bottom line is that this is a page in a user's user space. It's not an attack page, so it's none of my damn business. There's certainly no call to put Kelly on notice as to what she can and cannot do in her user space. Arb-com can do that, maybe an RFC with a near unanimous consensus could do that. Kelly can't be disrupting unless the deleting admins are too. So should I put all of those on notice? Does anyone not believe this is all a waste of people's time. Frankly, I'm gutted I didn't get on the list. As to being a troll, I aim only to do that when reading my children bedtime stories, but please accept an apology for any offence my opinion caused you. Steve block Talk 13:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Can you point out any of these other userlists OTHER than the ones that were created in the last couple of days as a satire of this one? As for being an attack page, nobody ever said it was. What it is is at best votestacking, at worst, an attempt to intimidate. BigDT 13:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Robert the Bruce kept a list like this. So did Cool Cat at one point. Neither was ever blocked on account of the practice. El C's actions in purporting to "instruct" Kelly struck me as particularly inappropriate. I'm pleased that he relented from his block when significant opposition materialised. --Tony Sidaway 13:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, Robert the Bruce kept a list ... but so did Nixon. And while we may not have blocked Nixon for it (yet; wait 'til ArbCom are finished, please), we certainly laughed at him a lot, and he's generally considered a very silly sausage indeed. I'd rather our admins didn't carry on like very silly sausages indeed, whether they have a cute little dog or not. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 13:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Tony has provided examples, I hope they will surfice. I'm baffled as to how an accusation of votestacking can be levelled, and as to intimidation, how can it be intimidation? I'll let you into a secret. There's a list out there on which I get top billing, and I am not bothered one bit. Frankly, I figured I was snooping through someone's user space and contributions and I deserved what I found. I have never worked out what the list is for, but since it has never done me any harm and has been around a year or so, I'm long past thinking about it. I hadn't given it a thought until this debate came up. Steve block Talk 13:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The fact that they weren't blocked doesn't make it right. These lists are unacceptable, and users should be punished for their creation and especially for recreation. Grue 13:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Last I checked, we weren't in the business of punishing people. Take your Commie revenge talk elsewhere, pinko! fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 13:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps you need to check again? These times punitive blocks are commonplace. Grue 14:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm! Can I punitively block retrospectively? I sense I've a lot of catching up to do here. Coo-ee, boys! Remember back in 1987 when you made that smart remark about my hair? Well, now you're for it! fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 14:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm at a loss to find any criteria these pages fit at WP:CSD, nor any blocking criteria their creation meets. If it ain't an attack page, it ain't actionable, and it's best left alone. How on earth does blocking people make anything any better? Why are these lists unacceptable? Because they exist? I'm still at a loss to understand what the problem here is. Steve block Talk 13:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, about 10 good reasons are that Kelly Martin herself has described them as wilfully disruptive, and basically described them as deliberate attempts to goad. That makes it trolling under any common definition. They count as easy-to-see problems in my book. I recall various verbs being put forward for what one might to do the troll(s), and none of them included giving them a hug and castigating any user who had the temerity to try to dispose of the problem. -Splash - tk 14:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I still don't see how they were disruptive. I can't see anywhere that Kelly says they were, and I'm not advocating giving her a hug. If they are attempts to goad, then well done, they worked. Ah, stuff it. You can see why Wikipedia:Common sense never got made a policy or guideline. No-one recognises it. Cheers. Steve block Talk 15:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- [66] (a few posts up from here) is where Kelly self-describes her actions as disruptive and as deliberate attempts to goad people. Rare are the occasions when someone actually confesses to trolling and finds people moaning at those who try to deal with it. And just because it's not an attack page gives it a free pass?? -Splash - tk 15:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Tony comments that "Robert the Bruce kept a list like this. So did Cool Cat at one point. ". So what was the nature of their lists. A list of people who opposed their friend. Or a list of people whom have been disruptive while editing certain articles? I think we can all see a valid reason keeping the latter list. We are still waiting for a valid reason for the Kelly's list. As BigDT mentioned above, the only reasoning given to date is for "decision-making processes". Since I'm on this list I'd like to know a little bit more. As far as I can tell the parody of the lists and WP:POINT is all a distraction to avoid the important question. Smoke and mirrors anyone? David D. (Talk) 16:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Both were what I would characterize as "enemies lists". Robert the Bruce kept a list of anti-circumcision activists. Cool Cat kept a list of various people, color coded in such a manner that one could easily gauge the quality of his relationship with each member. Why are "we" waiting for a valid reason for Kelly's list, by the way? The reason for Kelly's list is her own business. It does seem to have some of the character of an "enemies" list, however. --Tony Sidaway 16:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I will point out that I just noticed an answered to my question below. See this edit. One wonders why she didn't just come out and say it right from the begining. It seems like a perfectly reasonable answer and would not have resulted in this whole argument. I disagree it is her own buisness when it is in her user space. Clearly it could, and was, viewed as antagonistic without some sort of explanation. David D. (Talk) 17:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Both were what I would characterize as "enemies lists". Robert the Bruce kept a list of anti-circumcision activists. Cool Cat kept a list of various people, color coded in such a manner that one could easily gauge the quality of his relationship with each member. Why are "we" waiting for a valid reason for Kelly's list, by the way? The reason for Kelly's list is her own business. It does seem to have some of the character of an "enemies" list, however. --Tony Sidaway 16:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Put this on MfD. Computerjoe's talk 19:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Note: I closed the MFD on this as Speedy Keep, (moved closing notes to a vote), but was reverted. The closing was out of process but an attempt to restore WP:MFD to a serious discussion place, and not a userpage battleground. My SpeedyKeep was vertered by Zoe, and I will not fight it, apparently process is important in this???? — xaosflux Talk 02:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, /R should be deleted as a recreation of /B. It's a recreation of deleted content, that simple. /B should have been taken to DRV. --Avillia (Avillia me!) 04:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
On July 6 2006, I made this revert with VandalProof and has resulted in some problems. 65.78.112.37 (talk · contribs) then made this comment on my talk page and re-added the link here. In response and based on criteria at WP:EL, I cleared out links here with the edit summary of removed a great numer of links based on WP:EL (specific companies; dicussion-only forums; niche or small area tag sites, ect. that reported on other aspects and companies and clubs dealing with Laser tag. The IP then reverted my edits [67], commented on my talk page [68], and started commenting on the dicussion at Talk:Laser tag#External Link Discussion [69] [70] [71]. I started stating some reasons why the links were removed in detail [72] (IP responded [73] and I responded to this with [74]). The IP then gave reasons for each link here, and I responded to each with this edit as did Sugarskane (talk · contribs) here. Both me and Sugarskane took a break and since then, the IP has responded with this, using our sleeping/work/ect as a reason to re-add the links. Even before this, Sugarskane had implored the IP several times to express why these links are needed [75] [76].
Finally, I returned last night, saw the reentries to the ELs on the main Laser Tag page and reverted. The IP then left me this message, then user Whateverpt (talk · contribs) (most likely the IP, based on talk page comments and articles of interest) left this message, and the IP then left this message. I believe this is all to make a point by the IP to push his webpage that was the starting point of this mess.
I would VERY much like someone to take a look at this and respond. I am going to walk away now, because the time I spent on this the other night, and the time I am spending now reported this, could be used for most important things like creating articles, WP:CVU, and helping to wikify articles. Thank you for who ever can respond. Cheers! -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 17:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Also, User:Whateverpt created the article Actual Reality, which seems not to be notable enough for inclusion, but since I have mentioned all of the above, I will refrain from "prod"ing or "csd"ing it. They have also include the webpage I have brought into question above in the article as a external link. -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 18:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moeron, you've done a great job removing all those external links. That other user(s) is QUITE in the wrong here. Simple case of overlinking. --InShaneee 18:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I originally commented out the entire external link section and asked someone with more experience to the topic to look over the section. There were a few links that, during the discussion, I thought might be good to keep around. Could a non-biased, more experienced, admin look at the following and consider them for inclusion?
- "Non-biased, more experienced"? --InShaneee 20:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Non-biased -- someone that hasn't been dealing with Whateverpt... More experienced -- someone that knows the EL stuff better than I do. Do any of the above links seem valid for inclusion? --Sugarskane 16:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Good job Moeron. And shame on whoever is that IP for blatant lack of civility. Pascal.Tesson 20:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. "Actual Reality" is mentioned VERY breifly an almost inconsequentially in the article. The link that was readded was to a site with what appears to be a particular company's laser sensor (and possibly equipment). Its almost useless to the reader of the article. Also one of the diffs I checked with a brief arguement by the anon is a straw man arguement ("the other links are still there" and its relatives). Last, the other diff I saw with 5 or so links added is clearly not a good idea. Kevin_b_er 00:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
personal attack and/or death threat
From [77]
- "Now at least I know there are some people who personally cannot stand me here and will do anything to delete any content I enter - even if they are too stupid to notice that the joke is on them. There is only one way to deal with bullies - a gun. If you are collecting my articles, you must to be shot to save humanity, per your own definition - a Darwin Award.".
Phr (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Indef blocked. --mboverload@ 22:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a tiger if I ever saw one. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to clear off the "novel" the user posted on their talk page? Paul Cyr 23:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
User:SandyGeorgia - out of control?
Sorry to bring this up again but it seems this user is now totally out of control.
Here she is accusing another editor she is engaged with in an edit war on Hugo Chavez and Criticism of Hugo Chavez of "personal attack" for politely asking her to "keep a cool head" and expressing his opinion, well within guidelines, on her edits [78] (this seems particularly mean-spirited to me as English is User:SuperFlanker's second language and it must be so stressful for him to have his usage constantly critiqued and micro-managed in this way).
Here she is using User talk:Torinir for her own personal attacks and dialogue because he was going to close Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-19 Domineering Editor on Asperger Syndrome, as she had requested herself [79] but was actually beaten to it by User:Kylu(???).
Here she is trying to misrepresent the final edits on the previous WP:ANI [80] thus [81] and [82].
I am posting this here because it is impossible for me to negotiate with a person who manipulates like this and I honestly do not want to get into some kind of personal, ongoing war with her, but this behavior CANNOT be right? --Zeraeph 02:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Misrepresentations again. It looks like I've acquired a friend for life.
- I did not request the mediation be closed: on the contrary. Zeraeph is pointing to a copy of my post here, on AN/I. I have suggested that this be taken to proper channels, which *is* mediation. I requested the case be closed here on AN/I, because Zeraeph's previous comments did not belong here. User:FrancisTyers already requested that he not post about it here. [83] Dispute resolution belongs on MEDCAB. Yet, here it is again, although Zeraeph has still refused to talk directly with me [84][85] about his allegations, and requested that the Mediation be closed [86] before it was even started.
- I have reminded another editor that if he continually characterized legitimate edits as vandalism, that could be interpreted as a personal attack.
- And Zeraeph came into a conversation I initiated with the mediator, when he quickly closed the mediation case that was and still is sorely needed. Sandy 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Once again User:SandyGeorgia is making statements that do not accord with the facts of her behaviour in the histories thus:
- She says: I did not request the mediation be closed: on the contrary."
- I will admit that I have only just noticed that the statement that seemed to indicate her wish for 2006-07-19 Domineering Editor on Asperger Syndrome to be closed ([87]Per the instructions at the top of this page (Please be aware that these pages aren't the place to bring disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors. We have a dispute resolution procedure which we recommend you follow. Please take such disputes to mediation, requests for comment, or requests for arbitration rather than here. Please do not post slurs of any kind on this page, and note that any messages that egregiously violate Wikipedia's civility or personal attacks policies will be removed.), I respectfully request that this issue be taken to proper channels, and struck from this page. This doesn't seem to have the best means of addressing the issue, or the right place for it. Thanks, Sandy 16:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)) was, in fact, a copy and paste from the previous WP:ANI, which human error I regret, however I responded to it as the request to close 2006-07-19 Domineering Editor on Asperger Syndrome I sincerely believed it to be here [88] thus: ::I am in agreement, though I initially hoped it might be possible to resolve this issue here, which is why I made the request, but since I saw the responses on WP:AN/I I now realise that would be inappropriate, as well as impossible --Zeraeph 18:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC) more than three days ago, which should have made the misunderstanding abundantly clear, as well as my feelings on the topic, as I have also done in on her own talk page [89].
- She says: :I have reminded another editor that if he continually characterized legitimate edits as vandalism, that could be interpreted as a personal attack.
- And yet in this edit[90] she clearly states (follow links for full picture):::::I could accept your apology, but you have just done it for the third time. This is your third warning now to refrain from attacking my character or motives or good faith editing. I am not vandalizing, I am not retaliating, and I am certainly calm. As you know, we've had conversations before about your attempts to paint me as hysterical, and I will not accept any more personal attack characterizations, either on talk page or in edit summaries. Please refrain from describing me as retaliating or vandalizing in edit summaries, and please refrain from referring to my emotional state, unless you are able to see through your computer into mine. I am certainly calm, and expect these personal attacks to stop. Sandy 22:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- She says:And Zeraeph came into a conversation I initiated with the mediator, when he quickly closed the mediation case that was and still is sorely needed. Sandy 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- And yet, in this edit [91] it can be clearly seen that, in fact User:Kylu closed the case, which fact I was about to communicate to [User:Torinir] when I saw this edit [92] and this edit [93] stating: Not so fast :-) The user appears to have started that mediation for the sole purpose of harassing me, he didn't back up a single allegation, and the case needs to be closed in a way that I'm also satisfied. Sandy 23:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I understand. But he initiated the action for one reason only; he gave not an ounce of evidence for anything, smeared me on AN/I, MedCab, the AS talk page, and my talk page. I have recorded the final AN/I statements on the MedCab case, and will make a final statement there, because it was not a genuine attempt at mediation. It was a smear. Sandy 23:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC) which, coming from the same person I had just seen, in this edit [94] instruct another editor to please refrain from referring to my emotional state, unless you are able to see through your computer into mine. made her claims to know my motivation in a far more complex way seems very hypocritical and vexatious to me. As though there must be one liberal standard for User:SandyGeorgia and another, far more rigorous one every user who does not suit her, to be policed by User:SandyGeorgia.
- When I tried to communicate with her, by her own admission she simply disregarded every word I said thus: [95] (making exactly the same assumptions about me that she fobids other editors to make about herself.
- At this stage I do not know any way to communicate civily with a person who consistently misrepresents facts and insistently applies double standards, and I do not know what can be resolved by mediation with a person who constantly re-invents history and refuses to deal in the facts.
- I have already explained, in several places such as [96] (:I do not see any realistic way to resolve any problem directly with any person who's only attempt at resolution is to distort the facts as Sandy has chosen to do below and in other instances. Resolution is dependent upon change, not pretence. --Zeraeph 18:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)) why I feel I made a serious error in judgement in thinking this could be solved by mediation, which I now fully acknowledge. --Zeraeph 04:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Now that you see the misunderstanding (that I did not request mediation be closed), I hope you will either speak directly with me, e-mail me, or re-open mediation, and refrain from further entries here. As Francis explained to you, this is not the right place for dispute resolution. Sandy 04:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- All of the above are out of the question. I cannot, and will not, participate in any form of dialogue with a person who is manipulative and is not truthful, for many reasons, not least of which is the sheer futility of attempting achieve resolution in the face of that kind of behavior.
- When I thought mediation was an option I did not realise User:SandyGeorgia was capable of the degree of deceit she has shown since I requested it. Thus, my request is now withdrawn.
- This is not a "personal dispute" of any kind. This is an issue of User:SandyGeorgia's abusive behavior towards other editors and manipulation of WP:Policy to suit herself. I am not prepared to enable that to go on covertly. --Zeraeph 05:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- It should be obvious from my comments above that I will decline to participate in any dialogue or mediation involving User:SandyGeorgia. If any Admin wishes to mail me for a, strictly private ,further explanation please feel free.
- I find it telling that User:SandyGeorgia has not acknowledged, let alone attempted to explain, the two blatant lies she told, and I showed evidence of, on this board tonight. --Zeraeph 05:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I find it 'telling' that you wouldn't participate in mediation, myself. Without investigating terribly far, I'm troubled that both of you are making personal attacks at each other above. --InShaneee 06:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Do you? Well let me explain the reality, I have a life, I do not have time to spend wading through histories, to check, and usually debunk User:SandyGeorgia's constant confabulations and misrepresentations to the point where the discussion would concern fact rather than fiction.
- I do not possess the necessary masochism to voluntarily submit myself to unrelenting manipulation and psychological abuse, which is all the User:SandyGeorgia's behavior towards me (and a few others who don't suit her) consists of, and if her strategies are too subtle for you, aren't you the lucky one? But unfortunately that does not blind me to them or prevent them from affecting me adversely, does it?
- Even if I was prepared to do all these thing there would be absolutely no point, because any agreement made by User:SandyGeorgia would probably be a pretence, and there is no way I can pretend to find her behavior acceptable until it really is. --Zeraeph 18:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Repetitive category deletion attempts
I'm an administrator but I'm a little biased so I figured I'd ask for an impartial ear. Isn't there some unwritten rule about nominating categories for deletion over and over?
If they were whacked on the first or even second attempt, I wouldn't say much ---- but FOUR now?! All within an eight-month span.
Moreover, this time, the categories weren't even tagged until three days after the CFD was started so if you're like me and don't keep close tabs on WP:CFD, then you end up only being the fourth or fifth vote which is clearly a disadvantage.
What gives?! —Wknight94 (talk) 03:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
They appear to each be nominated by different editors, who presumably all independently thought they should be deleted and didn't know there had already been a discussion about it, as most of the talk pages don't mention the previous CfDs. The two recent ones are also several months apart from the others and each other. Tagging them incorrectly is bad, but I think it is pretty likely that these users just all thought they should be deleted. —Centrx→talk • 08:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Pppppfffttt. Oh well.... Sour grapes = —Wknight94 (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
AOL Vandal Fun (again)
The AOL ceiling cat vandal is back, this time with [[Image:Michael-Jackson-With-Kids.jpg]]. We've been reverting him like crazy for the last 20 minutes, but the ip's keep changing. I know a lot of you have dealt with this on a routine basis...any ideas? I'm about to call it a night, and I've got nothing. I'm not sure a block would really help. Alphachimp talk 06:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmph. Wasn't there supposed to be a fix for the AOL proxy issue a while ago? Zetawoof(ζ) 22:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Copy-paste move redirect vandalism
Comanche cph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made Ragnarök a redirect to Ragnarok and then proceeded to copy-paste the content of Ragnarök over to Ragnarok. I have reverted these edits, but I am not sure as to how long they will stay as such. Ryūlóng 08:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't call it vandalism? Do you use more user names since you come from no where and call it vandalism?
Ragnarok is the English word, and this a English wikipedia right? Ragnarök is not the old Norse word. But the Icelandic. Look at how the article Midgard looks like. On that way this article should be. Or do you also think that we should change that article to "Miðgarðr"
The letter "ö" is not in the English alphabet. --Comanche cph 10:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- The correct approach is to move the article from one name to the other. Copy-pasting it destroys the history (essentially, it makes it look like you wrote the entire current article by yourself in one sitting.) If the move can not be made because something already exists at the old name and the system will not permit the move, you should list is at Wikipedia:Requested page moves for an admin to do it properly. If the move is contested, you should have a discussion first on both talk pages. Thatcher131 10:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just because the letter "ö" is not in the English alphabet does not mean the article should be named without the ö. There are plenty of articles on the English Wikipedia about non-English topics that are named with special characters in the title. WP:MoS-JA will rename articles so they are named with Hepburn Romaji and use characters such as ā, ō, and ū. The move is also contended at Talk:Ragnarök, partly because "Ragnarök" is the Old Norse spelling of the work, and that spelling is used in the modern Swedish language, as well as on other non-English Wikipedias (off the top of my head, the French Wikipedia uses ö in their spelling of "Ragnarök"). And what does the "Do you use more user names since you come from no where and call it vandalism?" accusation mean? Ryūlóng 21:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Robertsteadman, a.k.a. Robsteadman
Some of you will remember the case of Robsteadman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who engaged in lots of edit warring and abuse, and who used sockpuppets Robeaston99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Vhjh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for votestacking, whose behaviour was generally rather hysterical, and who used to write things about "shallow and twisted" admins, "the 'christian' cabal" (lower case c and quotation marks to make the point that Christians don't exist, just as he uses lower case j and quotation marks for "jesus"), who constantly called other editors vandals and called for them to be banned, who accused an atheist admin of being part of the "christian" cabal when he protected a page, who used the sockpuppet Yummy mummy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to get an extra oppose vote at Deskana's RfA, who was finally blocked indefinitely for trolling and abuse, and who then made legal threats by e-mail because of the sockpuppeting accusations.
He returned a few weeks later as Robertsteadman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was originally blocked again after refusing to say if he was the same person, and was then unblocked to give him another chance, and was put on probation.
A new user, Neuropean, who is very likely a reincarnation of Count Of The Saxon Shore (talk · contribs), with whom Rob(ert) was often in dispute, nominated Rob's article Anne Frank's cats for deletion. The article survived the nomination, but it was certainly not an inappropriate nomination, since several people voted to deleted as unencyclopaedic. However, it always looks bad for a new user to start with an AfD nomination. (Since Count Of the Saxon Shore was not a banned user, he had every right to start with a new identity if he so chose.) Robert then started on a clear vendetta against this user, filing two RFCUs (one on Neuropean himself, and one on an IP), both of which were rejected by Mackensen with a {{Fishing}} template. He then made numerous posts to WP:RFI about this user, calling him a vandal, a sockpuppet, and a stalker. He became heavily involved in wiki-stalking Neuropean, showing up at articles the latter had created or recently edited. By the way, it's obvious that he has been making a habit of editing articles that I have just edited as well, and Deskana and Frelke have noticed that he was doing it with them also.
This caused some distress to Neuropean, and he asked Rob on several occasions to stop. Rob continued wiki-stalking, and continued to accuse him of being a vandal, a sockpuppet, and a stalker.
I feel I should have acted sooner. By no means do I wish to imply that Neuropean was blameless, but after the stormy beginning, he showed that he wanted to move on, and made a few compromise offers to Robert. I do not think he will be back. He said he was suffering from depression. Nevertheless, I would like to ensure that this cannot happen again. We were too slow in putting a stop to it. I'm bringing this here for review, because I would like some support in making it clear that wiki-stalking and hurling round of unsubstantiated accusations of vandalism and sockpuppetry are not going to be tolerated, particularly from an indefinitely-blocked user who has been unblocked on probation.
I don't want to clog up the admin noticeboard, so I've created a subpage with more information here. I know it can be a bit of a bore to start looking through a case that you don't have any experience of, but I'd very much appreciate some reaction. And by the way, although I and Gator1 deleted Rob's user and talk pages at his request when he left, I have undeleted the earlier versions, so as to be able to provide evidence of his behaviour. Thanks. AnnH ♫ 16:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- So allowed back under a kind of probation, he has harassed another editor to the point of driving him off. I move for a community ban. If this doesn't happen for any reason we can try arbitration. --Tony Sidaway 16:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ann has missed some vital information out about Neuropean being an internet stalker from another site who had followed me here, has used several different accounts to harrass me. Count of the Saxon Shore (Crusading Composer) etc. may not have been a banned user but should have been. The stalking, as Ann well knows, went beynd WP and the TES forum into real life - she was informed of all this. I do not deel I wiki-stalked him - I edited some articles he had edited once I looked into his actions. If I did something wrong I apologise. user: Syrthiss is well aware of all this and, from emails I have received, agrees that Neuropean was a trouble maker and agrees that evidence I have supplied him with shows a definite link to an internet troll and stalker from another web site. I think it is a great shame that Ann, knowing all of this, and being someone with whom I have had major disagreements with is now using this as a trump card to win an old battle over the Jesus article. Her entry here is truly the ultimate in bad faith edits. Robertsteadman 17:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry forgot to say, despite qwhat Ann says, and what WP turned up, I have not used any sockpuppets - that is false. At elast one has now told me who they are and it was a student of mine. Robertsteadman 17:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Given that six checkuser admins said that there was absolutely no doubt of sockpuppetry, and given that they knew you work in a school, there must have been much more to it than that, even though they never give details of what they find as they don't want to teach editors to get better at sockpuppeting. AnnH ♫ 18:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry forgot to say, despite qwhat Ann says, and what WP turned up, I have not used any sockpuppets - that is false. At elast one has now told me who they are and it was a student of mine. Robertsteadman 17:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
This makes VERY interesting reading - perticularly the "sudden" reappearance of Count of the Saxon Shore.... how very odd. Robertsteadman 17:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've already agreed that Neuropean is probably Count Of The Saxon Shore, so I don't think there's anything odd about him reappearing after I had said that I had undeleted your talk page. He knows that there's some nasty stuff that he wrote on that talk page, and so he logged on as COTSS to protest against the undeletion. That's not a violation of policy, he wasn't taking extra reverts or votes, and I doubt if he'll be back. AnnH ♫ 18:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Last time I checked, indefinatly blocked users weren't allowed to use sockpuppets to come back. RfCU, anyone? --InShaneee 18:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- There was an RfCU, which showed that Robsteadman and Robertsteadman were the same. See here. It lists his other sockpuppets too, with the exception of Yummy mummy, but the checkuser for that is reported here. His return was discussed here, and he was unblocked on probation according to conditions set here. I agreed to allow him back, but I think it's a bit much that an indefinitely-blocked user who returns without permission and is then kindly permitted to resume activity keeps hurling the word "sockpuppet" at another editor who (if it really was Count Of The Saxon Shore) was not indefinitely blocked, and was therefore perfectly permitted to return, and was also free to start afresh with a new identity, and was not using the newly-registered account to get extra votes or reverts. AnnH ♫ 19:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've been thinking and indefinite block is in order for some time now... --Lord Deskana (talk) 18:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Please do. I'm astonished that Neuropean's self-control and lack of hostility still made him susceptible to such bullying behaviour. If this discussion stays around for a couple of weeks and is then forgotten about and RobertSteadman continues to edit as normal it sets a very bad precedent. --Lo2u (T • C) 19:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Not an admin, but I'd like to voice support for an indefinite block. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and indefinatly blocked him as a sockpuppet of an indefinatly blocked user. --InShaneee 21:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it was quite right to make the official reason sockpuppet of banned user, since he had been unblocked and allowed back on parole. However, I do support the block on the grounds that his indefinite block was lifted on condition that he behave himself, and that he resumed his abusive behaviour. It's not even a question of blocking him for his recent behaviour, bad though it was: it's simply that he was already indefinitely blocked and when he was given another chance, he started upsetting other editors, bullying and wiki-stalking. I honestly don't think he's able to change. AnnH ♫ 21:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Can someone explain exactly what happens with an indefinite block. Can it it be lifted by a different editor without notice. Its not quite permanent is it ? Frelke 21:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's technically possible for any admin to unblock an editor blocked by another admin. It should not be done without thoroughly discussing it in advance, either with the blockin admin, or, if he's not available, here at AN/I. Unfortunately, some admins do unblock without discussion, and sometimes original blockers reblock, leading to a wheel war. Let's hope that any further action will be discussed in full here before any overturning of the block is considered. AnnH ♫ 21:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I support an indefinite block. I have seen his behaviour on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thunder Bay Northern Hawks (2nd nomination), then his wiki-stalking members of WikiProject Ice Hockey that disagreed have with him. -- JamesTeterenko
Regarding the above discussion... I'm reasonably sure that Neuropean was the person who stalked Robert off-wiki a while ago (commented by Robert above), who came here with the knowledge that Robert would be unable to handle his presence. I will take some of the blame upon myself in that I started a wikibreak just as the Neuropean conflict began, though I advised Robert to talk to another admin (Tony Sidaway was one of the names I gave him) to help sort the situation while I was away. All that said, I'm disappointed Robert couldn't just step back from the situation when Neuropean started making overtures (and FWIW Robert told me he felt he stepped over the line as was sorry for it). I've never been stalked IRL or webwise so I don't know how that effects people's future behavior. I wish there was some other way, but per wiki policy and the terms of his parole I have to agree with the block. Syrthiss 12:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I know that I said that I wouldn't edit here again but I feel quite strongly that an indefinite ban isn't appropriate here.
- Robert isn't a vandal out to disrupt, he is just very opinionated and stubborn. Yes, he can be quite rude at times, but my experiences on Wiki lead me to believe that abruptness is not an uncommon feature. His problem has been that he is looking for cabals and conspiracies and, to a very small extent, he has been justified in this.
- Has he said sorry? Yes he has. Is he likely to do this again soon? No, I don't think so. I know for a fact that he can change for the better.
- He has only really overstepped the mark with me and I suppose I am a red rag to abull to him (although he sees me everywhere, even when it is not me. I have promised never to post on any forum where he is a member, so future suspicion shouldn't be a problem. I feel that if I hadn't AfD'd his article, he would have continued in his 'ways' but not gone OTT, so I would rather not see him blocked.
- I object in the strongest terms to any suggestion that I have stalked him in real life, I don't know exactly what evidence he has presented in his private emails, but whatever it is has got to be wrong. But I suppose that he has found my behaviour annoying - the AFD may have been a WP:Point, but wasn't meant as a 'personal' attack. It went downhill from there.
- It has never been my attention to upset anyone - including Robert and I do not want to see him lose his hobby because of me. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I'm sure Robert will agree with me.
- I ask all concerned admins to give him one more chance. Blocking him will mean one less contributor and (although I still say that Moortje was an article crying out for a AfD,) he has made many positive contributions.
- His probation wasn't very specific. Instead of blocking him, I ask that he be given more specfic terms and he be held to those in his future actions. Any admin action should be based upon 'future' productivity and not past indiscretions. I think that's the whole point of Wiki.
That's all.Neuropean 23:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I read m:MPOV today. It seems an apt description of Robertsteadman, actually. --Lord Deskana (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Personal attacks against and possible harassment of User:Wzhao553
Wzhao553 has notified me that Logoi, with whom he is in a long-term dispute over the Asian fetish article, has been posting Wzhao553's personal information on his talk page (User talk:Logoi). As far as I could tell, most of this has to do with the fact that Logoi revealed the location of Wzhao's blog. Dark Tichondrias mentioned the blog in a separate post on Logoi's talk page. [98] In addition, Logoi was also making personal attacks against Wzhao and then erasing them, so that they did remain in the page history. Is it appropriate, in this case, where Wzhao is claiming that Logoi is harassing him, to edit out comments with the link to the blog? And/or should Logoi's talk page be refactored and protected? --Idont Havaname (Talk) 17:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, his talk page seems to serve only or almost entirely as an outlet for personal attacks against me. Also, Logoi first posted my personal information in User talk:Dark_Tichondrias#Hi.2C_Dark_Tichondrias. If it's possible, I would like that removed as well. --Wzhao553 17:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wow, I just read a little bit of Logoi's Talk page. You might as well include User:Human Fetishist as another user that's been engaging in personal attacks. It looks like he included me, too. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This user has in the last few minutes done a long series of bot-like edits, wikilinking one word on a many pages. Many of these are very dubious--ceded, high, etc., links to disambig pages or redirects. It's not vandalism, but I don't know how to communicate with him about this clearly. I would like him to slow down and do what he's doing more carefully, since a lot of these will end up being reverted if he keeps going as is. Can someone look at his contribs please? Thanks. · rodii · 18:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Reverted seeming random Wikilinks and asked for a reason (no response yet); another admin blocked 24h. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This article is getting a high number of revert's so I think it's urgent, and necessary to bring here. Requesting Semi Protection due to large amount of vandalism. Hello32020 19:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Large revert war going on Hello32020 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind it was just protected Hello32020 20:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- For future reference WP:RFPP is the appropriate place for page protection requests. --pgk(talk) 21:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
This user talk page has been vandalized a few times in the last couple of days by what appear to be sockpuppets of Dorsoduro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was indefinitely blocked for vandalizing this same user's user page. The vandalizing accounts are The return of Dorsoduro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), [99], and Gyt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), [100]. There is also a possibly related IP edit, [101]. Since these accounts are likely sockpuppets and their only edits were to vandalize this user's page, they should be blocked, and if vandalism from their IP or IP range continues, then that should be blocked for a little while. —Centrx→talk • 20:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Blocked both reg users, the IP's block has expired—no activity since, but the user should clearly be watched based on the contribs. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Elkman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Can someone take a look at his recent contributions? They seem like calculated disruption of the sort I am often accused of. He made Pink fuzzy bunnies a few days ago with what's now at Highway 33 (Minnesota) - see [102] for his rationale. --SPUI (T - C) 21:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'll admit that Pink fuzzy bunnies was a mistake borne out of frustration of this situation. As for the rest... well, let's just say that I'm off the Minnesota State Highways project. I'm not sure why I ever got involved in the highways project in the first place.
- Basically, since I've created and/or modified a number of articles under the wrong title ("Minnesota State Highway (x)" instead of "State Highway x (Minnesota)"), that means I did something wrong. That, in itself, is a blockable offense. So I won't argue about the blocks being applied. Indeed, since I made a number of mistakes editing List of Registered Historic Places in Minnesota this afternoon, and since I wasted time and server space using AWB, I suppose it's going to happen anyway. --Elkman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC) (Note the short signature format)
- Ah, you have not been blocked by anyone. Take a deep breath and calm down. :) FCYTravis 23:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Note: it was Elkman who added the {{vandal}} to the section title. I do not believe him to be a vandal. --SPUI (T - C) 22:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
This user has vandalized Seduction in the same way that it has been recently. At the very least, it seems like the article should be locked, but beyond that, I don't know how to get this activity to stop. Andrewski 21:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Moved from WP:AN. Steve block Talk 22:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this issue, I wonder if a another admin could take a look. I think the admin here chose a block way before necessary, to what otherwise appears to be a good user. Summary: yes, I think the user was making negative comments, but I don't think such an immediate block was called for. Thanks for your time. --Kickstart70-T-C 19:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've already asked Essjay on his talk page to clarify this[103], as I feel it is questionable. The comments by which led to the block of User:CovenantD are these: [104], [105], [106].
- Essjay justified his block on the grounds of disruption. [107]., [108] I find this highly questionable. I'm concerned that blocking was taken before any other form of dispute resolution. Blocks should be preventantive, not punitive, and as I commented to Essjay, this smacks of punishment to me. Looking at the block log [109], Essjay describes the disruption as being: "incivility and borderline personal attacks at RFCU". Now borderline personal attacks are no basis to justify a block, and nor is incivility. WP:BLOCK is clear on what constitutes disruption:
Sysops may block IP addresses or usernames that disrupt the normal functioning of Wikipedia, or pose any kind of threat to it. Such disruption may include (but is not limited to) changing other users' signed comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, excessive personal attacks, and inserting material that may be defamatory. Users will normally be warned before they are blocked My emphasis.
- I think this is a clear case of a badly issued block. Given the number of positions Essjay holds on Wikipedia, I would hope there are other issues behind this block. Otherwise, to me, it creates suitability issues for some of them. Steve block Talk 21:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it fair to ask Essjay to explain his block here before speculating further. We need to be clear, though, that the comments CovenantD made on the RFCU page were highly, highly insulting and completely inappropriate. I don't know where he got the idea that such behavior could ever be acceptable. Mackensen (talk) 22:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's fair to say that CovenantD lost his temper and said some inappropriate things in his frustration. It's also clear that CovenantD was being extremely impatient with RfCU, which has always been a slow process, but as he noted it was his first RfCU and he may not have realized how long they take. I think these are mitigating factors that should be considered. But I don't see what's "highly insulting" about the remarks, nor do I understand the "abuse" you cited in your initial decision to reject. I'm curious to know what you were referring to. Kasreyn 23:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know if you are reading different comments than I, or reading them in a different light, but while I agree they weren't helpful and were pretty negative, I don't see anything "highly, highly insulting" in any way. --Kickstart70-T-C 23:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced of that at all, no. The first comment I link to above is an expression of frustration, after all, Wikipedia is not meant to be a bureaucracy and here is someone running into a bureaucratic log-jam. I don't think anyone is being insulted other than the process. The user showed good faith in asking how long it would take, and having received no reply over 24 hours later frusratingly quesried no response. The rest of his comments seem reasonable considering the replies given. I think your response there is just as inflammatory, to be perfectly honest. I can't see how you were personally abused. Nowhere on the page does it indicate length of delay in getting a response. The first comment is not a personal attack in any shape or form, I can accept a case being made that it is incivil, but it's not cut and dried. The other comments are attempts at fixing a perceived flaw in the system. I think there's demonstrable good faith in Covenant's prior edits, [110], [111], so I think respondents should have assumed good faith, and I don't think they have. I think this situation was escalated by the participants a lot further than necessary, and I think in disregard for user conduct policies. Let's be clear, no-one's conduct is acceptable after CovenantD expressed frustration, but nothing that needed blocks to be issued for. The phrase "storm in a tea cup" springs to mind. Steve block Talk 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- His remarks go far, far beyond normal frustration, and his insinuations were maddening. Checkusering is extremely stressful work, and Essjay's right about the repeated abuse we experience carrying out our task (the nasty emails, the death threats, the tirades, the incivility, the refusal to believe us when we identify sockpuppets, the conversations with Willy on Wheels). This is a question of customer service. He asked for something; fine. He gave no indication that the request was pressing–if it was an emergency one of us could have been directly notified. He then began making a series of personal attacks, each worse than the last. Finally, I have some time and I wander over the Checkuser page. This is what I find. It's always nice to know that the hours upon hours of sacrifice are appreciated. Mackensen (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Please, asking seriously, give us direct links to the 'personal attacks'. I, for one, am not seeing anything that qualifies under any reasonable definition. Further, he should not suffer for the actions of others. --Kickstart70-T-C 23:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'll also note that Checkuser is restricted because of its sensitive nature and is a measure of last resort. The clerks explained politely and responded negatively. Mackensen (talk) 23:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- His remarks go far, far beyond normal frustration, and his insinuations were maddening. Checkusering is extremely stressful work, and Essjay's right about the repeated abuse we experience carrying out our task (the nasty emails, the death threats, the tirades, the incivility, the refusal to believe us when we identify sockpuppets, the conversations with Willy on Wheels). This is a question of customer service. He asked for something; fine. He gave no indication that the request was pressing–if it was an emergency one of us could have been directly notified. He then began making a series of personal attacks, each worse than the last. Finally, I have some time and I wander over the Checkuser page. This is what I find. It's always nice to know that the hours upon hours of sacrifice are appreciated. Mackensen (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nope, I don't see that they do go beyond normal frustration at all. Given your answer it appears you had the wrong frame of mind when judging his comments. The user had already noted he was new to the process, and was suggesting reasonable ways to fix the process based on having no understanding of the process. He did give an indication that the request was pressing, [112]. I'd also note you have no idea whether CovenantD was undergoing stress caused by his mediation of the dispute at the page indicated. All of us are volunteers. You criticise CovenantD for his frustration, yet seem oblivious to your own frustration and posting based on that. Your actions are equatable to CovenantD's. DOes this mean I should block you for 24 hours? I still can see no personal insult to you personally. That you took comments personally is one thing; that they were meant personally is another. I don't think you have considered the possibility that any attack was meant personally, but rather at the system which appeared to the user to be broken. If no-one watches the page for 24 hours, is it not reasonable to ask if we can have more checkuser enabled editors? Especially if you are told there are only 2 active in the 14. That seems like a flawed process to me. We all make hours and hours of sacrifice. I'm afraid to me your contention that a series of personal attacks were made is not born out by the edits in question. I accept the clerks responses were perfectly polite. I can't see that CovenantD's response was impolite, and I can't see how you and Essjay justify your responses, nor Essjay his block. I'm also concerned by the flaws this dispute throws up. Should checkuser requests be judged on the merits of the case? If not, there is a worrying precedent set here. Steve block Talk 23:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think I'd worry about that sort of abuse causing our (volunteer) checkusers to "take a break" and cause other checkuser requests to lag, just because one person was impatient. Blocked or not, if CovenantD was that worked up over something on Wikipedia, it's about time to go do something non-Wikipedia for a bit. I'd suggest the new Pirates movie. *nod* Very good. Depp's a hottie. Ayep. ~Kylu (u|t) 23:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I can't quite balance one volunteer's frustrations higher than another volunteer's. They all impact upon Wikipedia. If that's how the checkuser system operates, I'd question considering another model. But CovenantD tried that and was blocked. He did do something else for 30 hours. I don't know. I remember voting in Essjay's RFA. I just can't see where Essjay got the idea these were blockable comments from. I can't see that no-one can accept some fault here or extend some understanding and good faith. Steve block Talk 23:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I hadn't commented on the block at all, and I don't plan to. :) I'd like to see the block pass, then all sides forgive and forget. While overhauling the current system might be good, I do beleive that there are regular proposals on how to do so and none that I know of have passed. As far as volunteer status goes, imho the reason Essjay has all those nifty +flags is because he's trusted by the community to do the right thing: If a resource (such as active checkusers) is endangered, the community should either try to create more of the resource and/or protect the resource they currently have. Verbally assaulting the resources simply causes an already endangered resource in the persona of active checkusers to potentially vanish. ~Kylu (u|t) 00:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't see how one sockpuppet voting in a straw poll can make all that much difference to an article. Even so, I made a very polite response to CovenantD's nagging and suggested an alternate means for resolving the article dispute he obviously feels strongly about. His response was to dump on the checkusers (as a whole, as I read it). To paraphrase Essjay, people forget that nearly everybody working on wikipedia is a volunteer. Perhaps some members of the Arbitration committee should work on the RFCU page instead of the 28 outstanding cases they have right now. Or Brion V could drop his development work on the wikimedia software to help CovenantD win some content dispute. Last week, Essjay identified and reported a long-time apparently "good" editor who had a long-term record of creating vandal sockpuppet accounts, and the community reaction was a big yawn and a week long block. This week Jayjg's integrity has been publicly questioned in at least two places by an administrator he caught using a sockpuppet to evade a block for 3RR, and Mackensen has been harranged on his talk page over at least three declined requests before CovenantD came along. You're lucky to have checkusers at all, and you may find yourselves looking back on the halcyon days when a checkuser request took only 2 days to be answered. Thatcher131 00:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely, Thatcher131. Part of the problem with checkuser is the difficulty in the process that's assigned to it. Technically, I could do the actual checkuser lookup, but socially I wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole manipulated by a radio-controlled robotic arm. Look at the Socafan (or whatever his name was) incident where he griped about Essjay revealing the country in which he resided. Actually, look at every five or so RFCU requests since the page began: there's no shortage of gripes and abuses heaped upon those who we're supposed to be trusting with this sensitive information. Now, if he took all the usernames that edited Tiannamen Square and checkuser'd them and reported them to the PRC, I could see that being an issue. If I had someone request that I write an article on my talkpage, I'd consider it. If they demanded such and were nasty about it, I'd tell them to go bugger off in so many words. I think the exact same thing happened here, just with different privelege levels involved. ~Kylu (u|t) 00:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would not have complained about the revelation of a country had it not been for absolutely no reason - the request lacked any basis and should thus have been declined, the fact that it was not revealed a bias - and if Essjay had not written: one is from country x, the other from country y, my geography is bad but I guess they are close so it might be a sock. Try that with a Californian and a guy from NY. Socafan 22:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- On what Thatcher has said, it used to take a lot longer, and the page was considerably less nice than it is right now. Also, the diffs presented are not entirely perfect, as shortly after making a comment, ConvenantD changed the wording from "Time to get more people." to "Time to replace some people.". Basically a call to fire some checkusers and get new ones because they aren't responding instantly to a request. There's no timeframe listed there, insted a resort to attacking the a volunteer process to use a sensitive tool. Kevin_b_er 01:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I read it as "replacing the people who aren't actually doing any checkusering", but I guess I assume good faith from an otherwise good editor. I do note that the people claiming CovenantD was making personal insults have not responded to requests to specifically point out those personal attacks...and that was the reasoning behind him being blocked anyway, wasn't it? --Kickstart70-T-C 04:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I remember when we didn't have checkuser, so any threats about taking it away don't bother me too much. Maybe we should consider if it's a tool that isn't worth the hassle it causes. Steve block Talk 11:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I read it as "replacing the people who aren't actually doing any checkusering", but I guess I assume good faith from an otherwise good editor. I do note that the people claiming CovenantD was making personal insults have not responded to requests to specifically point out those personal attacks...and that was the reasoning behind him being blocked anyway, wasn't it? --Kickstart70-T-C 04:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- On what Thatcher has said, it used to take a lot longer, and the page was considerably less nice than it is right now. Also, the diffs presented are not entirely perfect, as shortly after making a comment, ConvenantD changed the wording from "Time to get more people." to "Time to replace some people.". Basically a call to fire some checkusers and get new ones because they aren't responding instantly to a request. There's no timeframe listed there, insted a resort to attacking the a volunteer process to use a sensitive tool. Kevin_b_er 01:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would not have complained about the revelation of a country had it not been for absolutely no reason - the request lacked any basis and should thus have been declined, the fact that it was not revealed a bias - and if Essjay had not written: one is from country x, the other from country y, my geography is bad but I guess they are close so it might be a sock. Try that with a Californian and a guy from NY. Socafan 22:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely, Thatcher131. Part of the problem with checkuser is the difficulty in the process that's assigned to it. Technically, I could do the actual checkuser lookup, but socially I wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole manipulated by a radio-controlled robotic arm. Look at the Socafan (or whatever his name was) incident where he griped about Essjay revealing the country in which he resided. Actually, look at every five or so RFCU requests since the page began: there's no shortage of gripes and abuses heaped upon those who we're supposed to be trusting with this sensitive information. Now, if he took all the usernames that edited Tiannamen Square and checkuser'd them and reported them to the PRC, I could see that being an issue. If I had someone request that I write an article on my talkpage, I'd consider it. If they demanded such and were nasty about it, I'd tell them to go bugger off in so many words. I think the exact same thing happened here, just with different privelege levels involved. ~Kylu (u|t) 00:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm really moved to wonder about the motivations of those who have stirred this up so much; hundreds of similar blocks are made each day, and none ges so much as a word, much less this sort of treatment. I'm inclined to wonder if User_talk:CovenantD#I_would_suggest_you_formally_take_the_above_to_ArbCom doesn't have a lot to do with it. At any rate, the community shall have what they desire: I'm joining the other 13 who don't go near RfCU, and I've encouraged Mackensen to do likewise; the fact that nobody could be bothered to think "Hmm, this might leave us with nobody willing to do this" indicates to me that the community really doesn't care if RfCU has 1000 backlogged cases. I will, of course, continue to be available for requests from the Arbitration Committee and the Foundation Office, as are the other 13; to assume that not working on RfCU = not running any checks is a grand fallacy. Essjay (Talk) 05:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I've looked over this situation and while on first glance I can see why some people don't see it as a justified block. However, I also know (as a fellow CheckUser) how grindingly difficult that job is. I used to be the only person working RFCU, and I couldn't keep it up for long because it's timeconsuming and totally thankless. People who put out with an attitude that they're entitled to whatever they want right away are going to find that that's not the way things work. CovenantD failed to show respect for the very difficult job that Essjay and Mackensen are doing. The rude attitude with which he expressed himself was out of line, especially for someone serving as a mediator. Frankly, he needed a quick smack in the ass to get him to realize he was out of line. I don't know if 24 hours was the appropriate time, but I suspect Essjay would have shortened the block if an apology had been forthcoming.
Long and the short of it, treat your checkusers nice; there aren't many of them and they work really hard for you. Be mean to them at your own peril. Kelly Martin (talk) 05:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I just see a user (CovenantD) reduce the chances of every other user, including myself, getting help with a checkuser request? Because that kind of bites... I wish you would reconsider, Essjay. And even if you won't, why is it that only about 1% of admins are entrusted with this power, and only about 0.02% actually use it? If it's such a frustrating hassle that burns you out so badly, why isn't the power expanded, maybe to a whopping 50 admins? Surely there have to be, out of those 1000, at least 50 trustworthy admins! I would imagine there are far more than that. Kasreyn 06:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- (Responding in the order questions were asked) Yes, that is the case. No, sorry I won't; this happens far too often, and as the link I gave above indicates, there is at least one user actively looking for opportunities to continue. Again, this is a fallacy; while only 2 of us are (were) active on RFCU, nearly everyone with the permission is active in using it. The majority of those who have it are on the Arbitration Committee, and they use it for that; there are also requests from the Foundation Office, and sua sponte checks on things like vandals who continue to create more accounts after they are blocked. If it were expanded, it would be 50 admins burned out, instead of 14; the problem isn't that the permission burns you out, it's the abusive treament from other users. Indeed, there could be, but you have to be very careful when you give out access to information that could get people stalked,imprisoned, or executed; if you give out someone's IP, they can easily end up being stalked, and if they live in a country with a hostile regime, can be imprisoned or executed for the things they do here. That's not something to be handed out lightly. Plus, more is not necessarily better; the more who have access, the harder it is to control, and being able to control who has access to very sensitive private information is imperative. Essjay (Talk) 09:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Question: is it really so sensitive information? Everybody who is on Internet should realize that their IP is practically public; people who are unhappy with this use proxies. Countries with oppressive governments have many other ways to find out what their citizens are doing rather than wait for wikipedia admins to reveal IP addresses (and I know about such countries first-hand). Personally I would not care much if my IP address was visible to everybody. For example, currently my IP is 68.178.232.99, let anybody who wants to stalk, imprisone or execute me do their worst :) --Vlad1 04:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, no one is likely to break down your door over your edits, or maybe put your family in a re-education camp to keep you quiet, unlike a democracy activist from Egypt or a Falun Gong member from China. More than that, Wikipedia has a long tradition of anonymity and a strong privacy policy. And there have been some very bad stalking incidents. Oppresive governments are hardly the only groups that might have an interest in harrassing an editor off the wiki. Thatcher131 05:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the reaction to this incident is completely out of proportion to the questionable block. I appreciate that it's a hard job, but nobody forces anyone to do it, and I think WP:BITE, WP:AGF and WP:CIV cut both ways. I'm disappointed in a lot of people's reactions here. All I was looking for was an acknowledgement that there was an over-reaction. As to the discussion on CovenantD's talk page, I wopuld hope people would assume good faith in the fact that people were steering this to the appropriate venues. I would have been far happier sorting this out with Essjay, but a user brought it here, well within their rights and as I had already involved myself I felt obliged to comment. I stand by my assertion that this is a questionable block. I apologise for the grief it has caused people, but I still feel refusing to grant a checkuser request on anything other than the merits of the case is disappointing. I really think there was a failure in common sense on all sides here, and to be honest, if CovenantD deserves a slap, then can we tear up all the guidance on there being no cabal, and no elite, and make sure we tell people that if they ruffle the feathers of the important people or their friends, then they're in the shit. Because I'm sorry, but that's what happened here. [113]. Every time something like this blows up it's because people act before they think. I know I'm guilty of it, but don't we have a right to expect better from the chairman of the mediators? This is out of hand; whatever happened to a common sense approach and the extension of putting yourself in the shoes of the other? If someone has a beef, I thought they had the right to be heard respectfully. I'm sorry for the way this has turned out, it was never my intention. Steve block Talk 11:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- If someone has a beef, I thought they had the right to be heard respectfully. Couldn't agree more; I wish Essjay and I were extended the same courtesey. He was heard respectfully (from Thatcher) and he chose to be rude. I can't help that. I'm not going to quit checkusering, but as it seems I'm the last man standing, y'all will have to work around my own work schedule from here on out. Mackensen (talk) 11:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- You misunderstand me. I'm talking about Kickstart70's beef with the block. I'm disturbed by the questioning of people's motives in commenting on the block. I can't help that the block was given. I believed there was a right to question it. Steve block Talk 11:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- If someone has a beef, I thought they had the right to be heard respectfully. Couldn't agree more; I wish Essjay and I were extended the same courtesey. He was heard respectfully (from Thatcher) and he chose to be rude. I can't help that. I'm not going to quit checkusering, but as it seems I'm the last man standing, y'all will have to work around my own work schedule from here on out. Mackensen (talk) 11:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
You know what, I'd have no problems with Essjay and Mackensen going on a long (and possibly permanent) RFCU break. The one good thing that's come out of it is that it's advertised even more that RFCU is a gruelling and thankless job. If people choose to treat RFCUers like this, and the RFCUers feel like they're being hung out to dry, let them take a long break from doing that job so the rest of the community can realise how hard it really is. (please note, not a comment on specific people here, but a general comment on people being hung out to dry) --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I do have a problem. They are both reliable and trustworthy users, they have done a huge amount of work behind scenes to improve the encyclopedia, and, they handle most of the RFCU cases. "But the side effect is to show RFCU is thankless job" gain is not worthy the loss. -- Drini 17:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- On the other hand, having them perform and the support a block against policy and without the warnings that should have happened show pretty clearly that there is an issue with judgement that needs to be considered. I am very thankful for their work, however that does not leave them blameless for making a bad choice. The two are not mutually exclusive. --Kickstart70-T-C 19:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree it's a huge loss. Sometimes people like CovenantD just don't know (or don't care). I wonder what people like that would do if there's noone around to cater to their every whim? --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Update Guess what? If CovenantD had asked Samuel Luo and Tomananda nicely why they appeared to have the same IP address, they would have told him. Thatcher131 19:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with Samuel Luo's comment at RFCU; I'd say the block was a bit of an overreaction but CovenantD was definitely out of line and was operating based on misconceptions which I hope s/he understands by now. I also hope Essjay and Mackensen can de-stress for a while but (maybe after a break) continue to keep an eye on RFCU and handle the requests that warrant it. I think having RFCU available outside the machinery of full-blown arb cases takes nontrivial pressure off of every level of wiki ops that involves dealing with sockpuppets (including the arbcom). I'd oppose expanding checkuser for reasons described by Essjay. Phr (talk) 03:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone kindly tell TJ Spyke that calling my good-faith edits "trolling", is against WP:NPA. I tried nicely to tell him, but he keep reverting my edits with edit summaries of "Lousy trolls" and "STOP CHANGING THAT YOU TROLLS". Although I don't agree with his edit summaries, I also don't agree with his edits either because my edits have a source, which I provide, but he persistantly remove them saying I'm trolling which I'm not. 209.214.141.10 22:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Not the first time he's done this, and user is a bit of a revert warrior besides. Warned. --InShaneee 22:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, he also said he was sorry if he offended me, which I accept if that was apology. 209.214.141.10 22:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Taylor Iosefo
Could somebody with the proper authority remove the history of this attack page? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
And the same thing at Peter MCcoy, please? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Taylor Iosefo & Peter MCcoy 's deleted histories appear to contain no information suitable for oversight application. The pages are already deleted and not available to non-admins. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Link spam and possible threat
While I am watching Xiaolin Showdown, this edit popped up: [114]. While the user only put up a link to a Xiaolin Showdown fan RPG while also separating the notable TV.com from the Kids WB and Wizards of the Coast sites, his message is particularly poignant. I think he's just a link spammer, trying to advertise the RPG that he's a part of. While it is an AOL IP, something should be done. Ryūlóng 00:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- AOL IP, 15 minute block, Please drive through to the next window. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone want to take a look at this page? Seems there is, pardon the expression, a war breaking out. Fan-1967 01:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
William Allen Simpson trying to make CFR a vote
Can someone look at and possibly revert [115], [116] and [117]? See also Template talk:Cfd2. --SPUI (T - C) 01:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- CFR might not officially be a vote, but it certainly is how discussion proceeds de facto, and changing the templates or page name won't change that any time soon. Circeus
- Somebody apparently hasn't read the instructions. We have 3 templates, Delete is cfd, Merge is cfm, and Rename is cfr (plus cfr-speedy). Each logs its name. Not particularly difficult for those that read and follow instructions. This is not new, it's just SPUI wiki-stalking my contributions.
- --William Allen Simpson 01:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, what is this? Less than 10 people talking about changing CFD, now its not a deletion debate anymore, but insted a discussion with voting? Shouldn't need to have the forced "* '''Delete'''" at the start of any XfD template used to start a discussion. Kevin_b_er 01:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- CfD/CfM/CfR has always been a discussion with voting, and the templates are there for the folks that can read and follow instructions. The rest of you are free to make up your own words, which will be fixed to conform to the format the rest of us are using. We have to do that all the time!
- As for only 10 people being involved, you were certainly free to join that procedural discussion, too. But things have been this way since long before I began using my well-known mundane name to edit here.
- --William Allen Simpson 02:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm pleasantly surprised that William has apparently agreed to keep this out. --SPUI (T - C) 01:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Never mind - he's added it to the other templates.[118][119][120] Better, as it's easy to remove, but still sets a bad example. --SPUI (T - C) 02:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- WP:POINT nominations are speedily closed.
- --William Allen Simpson 02:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Furthurmore, why can I find no mention of this stuff in the history of the village pump on policy or proposals? Why is CFD now a vote with forced selections of wether it should be merged/deleted rather than need arrising through discussion like the rest of the deletion discussions? Kevin_b_er 02:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- When was it otherwise? What other deletion discussion(s)? The same formatting appears at RfD and TfD.
- --William Allen Simpson 02:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Crap. That's a mess. It needs fixing. It's generally a bad idea to hold votes. We really prefer consensus, if that's ok with you. :-) Kim Bruning 02:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, Kim, I have 30+ years of experience in consensus-based organizations, including non-profit, political, and technical organizations, and the first technique taught is "let's go around the circle and each person state their position and reasons".
- The Cfd process (recently renamed after much effort by us from "for deletion" to "for discussion") has since its first day clearly specified:
- '''Your vote''': Your reason for nominating the category ~~~~
- Wikipedia is by no means a consensus-based organization. As cited by an especially obstreperous administrator in another "discussion" trying to tell me what consensus actually means here (quoted):
- Wikipedia is not the mundane world. See WP:Consensus and the talk page for the many ways in which "consensus" in Wikipedia has been redefined, sometimes in stark contrast to the common understanding of the term. At times it strikes me as Orwellian doublespeak to describe certain Wikipedia practices as "consensus". But in this case, the "lack of objection" is actually among the least disturbing distortions. It's a sort of consensus by apathy. ..." -- <unsigned>
- Yup, I agree, it's a mess. :-) We generally use "no objections" as our *test* if consensus exists. If there's an objection, we then go around the circle. (see: Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle for an example of such a method, thought that particular application is fairly heavy duty) We've also used straw polls to test if we need to go around the circle again. In some situations, people have failed to learn how consensus works, and are skipping the "go around the circle" bit. Oops. Especially polls are vulnerable to this problem, since they look a lot like votes to people who aren't used to them. I recently got told off for agressively pursuing consensus at Requests for adminship. I'm still busy resolving that and convincing all the new people that *yes* I may actually pursue consensus and have been allowed to since 2001 ;-) . Kim Bruning 08:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the mundane world. See WP:Consensus and the talk page for the many ways in which "consensus" in Wikipedia has been redefined, sometimes in stark contrast to the common understanding of the term. At times it strikes me as Orwellian doublespeak to describe certain Wikipedia practices as "consensus". But in this case, the "lack of objection" is actually among the least disturbing distortions. It's a sort of consensus by apathy. ..." -- <unsigned>
- I firmly disagree, and have done my best to improve the processes to be better and clearer and easier. This SPUI-style "consensus" by wearing folks out is wrong!
- --William Allen Simpson 03:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Its a deletion discussion, not a 'Separate activities to do to namespace discussion'. TfD and RfD don't have their templates automatically treat it like a vote and put "* '''Do this'''" in the created text. Only 10 people probably saw it because I would hope such a change occurs thourgh larger discussion. Kevin_b_er 02:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It is not and has never been about deletion only. Merging and renaming are both extremely common, both as proposals and as outcomes, and there are other possibilities as well. Complaints about the inappropriateness of the old name were aired on several occasions over at least a year. Osomec 07:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'd like to second this. Because of the vagaries of the category system, CFD tends to work in a very different way to the other deletion pages. There tend to be more complicated discussions, often involving blanket changes over several categories, and there are a wide range of possible outcomes. This is the reasoning behind the recent name change. However as far as I can tell these templates are intended for cases which the nominator believes can be resolved simply, and in those cases these templates are a time saving measure. This does NOT in any way prevent anyone else from suggesting alternatives, at any stage in the process. Nor does it prevent the nominator from using a more "customised" nomination message if it is felt appropriate. the wub "?!" 22:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Silver and Kreese: Getting Down and Dirty
As far as I can establish this film is a hoax. There is no independent Google sourcing and it is not in IMDb. The article Silver And Kreese - Getting Down and Dirty has been prodded for this reason. If you check Martin Kove you will see that it has been repeatedly added by anons. I cannot remove it any more since I am at my 3RR limit. Can anything be done or must we accept that this article will contain a hoax film? BlueValour 01:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Is this a case for sprotection? At least until whether the "Down & Drty" movie is determined to exist. -- llywrch 02:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is apparently user User:Jackman69, evading his through AOL IPs. he was the creator of teh Movie article and was blocked for his actions at Kurt Cobain, where he keeps removing alternate spellings through the same IPs. I have semi-protected Kove for now. Circeus 03:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help, Circeus. BlueValour 03:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is apparently user User:Jackman69, evading his through AOL IPs. he was the creator of teh Movie article and was blocked for his actions at Kurt Cobain, where he keeps removing alternate spellings through the same IPs. I have semi-protected Kove for now. Circeus 03:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Shougiku Wine (talk · contribs)
moved from AN:
I'm not sure if I'm reporting this to the correct place, but Shougiku Wine (talk · contribs) is attempting to AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Takeshima Islands (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Takeshima Islands|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) as part of a POV dispute over whether an article should be named Takeshima Islands (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) or Dokdo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The result of the POV dispute was the creation of a POV fork of the article. --TheFarix (Talk) 22:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, Shougiku Wine has clearly moved into the realm of personal attacks against those who don't agree with him as well as using racial language.[121] --TheFarix (Talk) 00:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Should be on /Incidents, but I've given 24 hours. Circeus 01:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
There he goes again. Is anybody interested in reading the whole thing? Circeus 21:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- He has now resumed his inflamatory editing: [122], [123], [124]. I'm giving him one week this time. Circeus 15:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Removal of Afd Tag
User:Rlk89 removed the afd tag of an ongoing afd [125] I placed the afd tag back and asked the user not to remove tags from ongoing afds (as the template asks you not to remove them from ongoing discussions) [126] and he removed the tag again saying in the edit summary "Conflict is resolved" even though the Afd is ongoing. [127] I don't want this to turn into an edit war so I ask that an administrator intervene. Thank you.--Jersey Devil 01:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Forget it, the situation seems to have been resolved as he self-reverted his edit.--Jersey Devil 02:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
user:kjlee is using open proxies and is most likely a sock of user:lightbringer
user:kjlee started editting a few days ago and immediately/exculsively made edits to Freemasonry related articles exactly like a known banned user user:lightbringer. A Checkuser was requested and it was stated that he is using open proxies, which has been a tactic of LB in the past. Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Lightbringer has the information on this user and his MO. Can an admin please block his latest sock. Chtirrell 02:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Stop the madness
Okay people, listen up. Two things need to happen: people need to stop making lists, and admins need to stop blocking Kelly Martin. This has passed beyond ridiculous and borders on discrediting everybody with the sysop bit. If there's a real problem we have a dispute resolution process somewheres that we like to parrot. If, however, this is actually the Weekend Edition of Gorilla Theatre, then the joke isn't funny anymore and it's last call. Yours, Mackensen (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's kind of amazing that the people who disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, troll, and wheel war are being judged as no more guilty than the people who try to stop them from disrupting the place. --W.marsh 02:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Surreal. El_C 02:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not rendering a judgement one way or the other. I think the whole business is ridiculous and need to stop. People need to start talking to each other and listening. This can't happen if we're running round deleting things and blocking people. Me, I spent the day dealing with the checkuser backlog and fiddling with the Disraeli article. I come back from dinner and find this mess. Mackensen (talk) 03:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Do you honestly believe these blocks were done for the reason of trying to "stop disrupting the place"? One good way to inflame a conflict is to turn a stupid dispute over a page's contents (in this case miscellaneous lists) into a much larger conflict by abusing administrator tools. I don't know why El_C and Jonathunder tried these blocks, but they clearly weren't meant to resolve the situation. Maybe they just wanted their names on Kelly Martin's block log, who knows. --Cyde↔Weys 02:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Cyde, are you condoning what Kelly Martin is doing? I'm not saying a block was necessary, but you make it sound like Kelly Martin was just reading a romance novel peacefully in Central Park and all of a sudden El C and Jonathunder came around with these blocks. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm re-reading my comment and I don't see a condonation anywhere. All I commented on was that I found these two blocks unwarranted and disruptive. --Cyde↔Weys 03:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I was not aware of the other block. KM needed to cool down as she was engaging in WP:POINT for naught, upsetting editors. El_C 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Cyde, are you condoning what Kelly Martin is doing? I'm not saying a block was necessary, but you make it sound like Kelly Martin was just reading a romance novel peacefully in Central Park and all of a sudden El C and Jonathunder came around with these blocks. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The lists were created to troll for that reaction, this has been admitted. It's sad that people think trolling is healthy, and trying to stop someone from trolling isn't. But... yeah, using admin tools when you're involved in a dispute isn't so great (which is why I haven't done anything admin-ish with this whole mess). Though you yourself said you'd unblock her (presumably using admin tools) if she was blocked again, which seems kind of contradictory there as you're involved too.... --W.marsh 03:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Cyde, I thought anyone who accuses someone else of violating good faith patently does not understand the good faith policy, as accusing someone else of violating an assumption of good faith is itself a violation of assumption of good faith [128]. The thing you have to understand is that just as you have strong opinions, those who disagree with you believe that their view is the correct one just as much as you believe your's is. --BigDT 03:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, let's try this:
- No more blocks.
- No more lists.
- No more out-of-control, page- and namespace-hopping fight, hopefully? Kirill Lokshin 03:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Namespacehopping? I've kept MY share of this nonsense entirely confined to my user space, except for replying here and on my talk page. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it certainly is namespace-hopping now. Whether or not any particular person is to blame for that is an interesting side point, but not really relevant in a discussion of how best to stop the conflict, I think. Kirill Lokshin 03:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- How is namespace-hopping even relevant to this? It's not like this is spilling out into the encyclopedic namespaces or anything. Lots of things move between userspace and wikipediaspace ... big deal. --Cyde↔Weys 03:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough; forget the namespace bit then. The page-hopping is problematic in of itself. Kirill Lokshin 03:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see that, either. So far the "disruption" has been limited to two sections of this page, my talk page, and perhaps a couple of other people's talk pages. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- And MFD and several places on RFA... ;-) Kirill Lokshin 03:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, that's not MY doing. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As I said above, I'm not trying to assign blame here. Could you perhaps not make any more unexplained lists of users? It would really make things a lot calmer all around, I think. Kirill Lokshin 03:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- <Snicker> I seem to recall a sociological experiment which deliberately created a similar situation. People went utterly nuts! If someone with more time than I do would care to look it up, that'd be great. Perhaps someday this story will be added to the textbooks as another example! :-) Kim Bruning 09:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As a bystander who just happens to be on the list, with no real knowledge of how the upper-clique of admins work, I'd like to point out that when Kelly Martin says "not MY fault" doesn't seem to fit with her statement that this is exactly what she expected to happen. [129] Themindset 21:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I believe you are referring to eon8. --cesarb 16:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- <Snicker> I seem to recall a sociological experiment which deliberately created a similar situation. People went utterly nuts! If someone with more time than I do would care to look it up, that'd be great. Perhaps someday this story will be added to the textbooks as another example! :-) Kim Bruning 09:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As I said above, I'm not trying to assign blame here. Could you perhaps not make any more unexplained lists of users? It would really make things a lot calmer all around, I think. Kirill Lokshin 03:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, that's not MY doing. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- And MFD and several places on RFA... ;-) Kirill Lokshin 03:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see that, either. So far the "disruption" has been limited to two sections of this page, my talk page, and perhaps a couple of other people's talk pages. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough; forget the namespace bit then. The page-hopping is problematic in of itself. Kirill Lokshin 03:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- How is namespace-hopping even relevant to this? It's not like this is spilling out into the encyclopedic namespaces or anything. Lots of things move between userspace and wikipediaspace ... big deal. --Cyde↔Weys 03:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it certainly is namespace-hopping now. Whether or not any particular person is to blame for that is an interesting side point, but not really relevant in a discussion of how best to stop the conflict, I think. Kirill Lokshin 03:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
FWIW I think Mackensen has an excellent suggestion there. Kelly: yes, it's been in your userspace. Regardless, some people have a problem with that. I assume you wouldn't be here defending yourself if people weren't perpetuating the issue, but it's like a battle, there needs to be a cease fire. The way to do that is to move on to other things and don't exacerbate the situation by creating more of these lists. Okay? El C & others: yes, I think you may have a point, Kelly Martin was being contentious, possibly disruptive, blah blah blah. It's not World War III. Why don't we just move on, forget about it for a day, and if it still bothers you, go through the full dispute resolution thing. Then we can get back to building a great encyclopedia. Mangojuicetalk 03:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Are we building a great encyclopedia here? I don't think there are enough good Wikipedians around to actually build a good -- let alone great -- encyclopedia. See the report on my behavior above, for example. Out of the entire Wikipedia population, I think there are only five or ten good users who don't use long signatures, who write great articles (that reach featured article status and can be cited by others), who are friendly, who always get along with others, and who have never made a mistake. (I say "never" because I mean it. If anyone makes a mistake on Wikipedia, then their contributions are instantly and permanently devalued.) Don't give me that "we're only human" crap either. --Elkman 04:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think myself that people are too hard on Kelly because of the userbox mess from months ago. Everything she does is scrutinized and over scrutinized. Her lists are not desirable but I'm still not sure what rules she is violating here. AGF is too vague for me, especially for a block. And are we building a great encyclopedia? What the heck does that have to do with anything? --Woohookitty(meow) 04:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, well I supported KM on that front (some misgivings now, though my hate for userboxes continues to know no bounds), but here she was simply wasting everyone's time and energy, I felt. I know some users were intimidated by her cryptic lists, which remain unexplained. El_C 04:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think myself that people are too hard on Kelly because of the userbox mess from months ago. Everything she does is scrutinized and over scrutinized. Her lists are not desirable but I'm still not sure what rules she is violating here. AGF is too vague for me, especially for a block. And are we building a great encyclopedia? What the heck does that have to do with anything? --Woohookitty(meow) 04:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- RE: all the "great encyclopedia" bravado, I created ~80 articles in the last month and performed numerous administrative tasks. If you want my (and others') time and expertise, don't treat us with contempt. El_C 04:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Then don't act in a manner deserving of contempt. Rebecca 05:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- These one-sided, tired one-liners are unimpressive. El_C 05:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I dare say, we have a pro-KM clique-like mentality with responses that could be predicted with some regularity. El_C 05:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree (w.r.t the one-liners; don't know anything about KM or cliques). WP:CIVIL does not have an escape clause for "if they reely, reely deserve it", Rebecca. Please see further up this page where an editor's unthinking frustration led to a checkuser admin quitting the task, which is going to result in actual, real harm to the project because there are so few. Why did this happen? Because an otherwise positive user forgot that everyone here is a volunteer, and you don't dump on volunteers or they walk away. Please respect that. Kasreyn 07:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- (Unindent→)
- I agree (w.r.t the one-liners; don't know anything about KM or cliques). WP:CIVIL does not have an escape clause for "if they reely, reely deserve it", Rebecca. Please see further up this page where an editor's unthinking frustration led to a checkuser admin quitting the task, which is going to result in actual, real harm to the project because there are so few. Why did this happen? Because an otherwise positive user forgot that everyone here is a volunteer, and you don't dump on volunteers or they walk away. Please respect that. Kasreyn 07:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
(←Unindent) I agree quite strongly with that principle. Even so, Rebecca and El_C are both established editors who both have too much time and effort invested to just walk away. They're just blowing off harmless steam at each other. :-) So I'm not too worried about that part, at least not today. ;-)
I do agree they could set a better example though, of course. <crosseyed look> Kim Bruning 09:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Kelly Martin/T. Oh, so witty! --Conti|✉ 14:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call that "witty", it looks like that page has a valid purpose ... she's doing an analysis on RFAs that were malformatted or withdrawn early. Maybe she's looking at ways to overhaul the RFA process. But I don't think this reflexive "OMG she's out to do something evil" response is very constructive. I just wish she would put an explanation or something. --Cyde↔Weys 14:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Those of you who pay attention to Wikimania may have noticed that I am doing a presentation on consensus. I am actually (with Gmaxwell's invaluable help) doing some research into things like voting patterns on RfA and AfD, and other such things, with the hopes of using the findings as part of that presentation or perhaps for later purposes. (I imagine very few of you know that I was a political science minor in college.) I don't think that such examination of Wikipedia's processes should be considered "disruptive", but I'm sure that someone will be quite ready to accuse me of it nonetheless, as it seems that there are certain elements of the community that are simply completely incapable of extending even the slightest bit of good faith to me. That particular page is data that Gmaxwell generously provided me; I created it there partially to work on it and partially to see who would react badly to it. Looks like Conti wins today's ABF prize. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hooray! Well, actually I'm quite content with that answer, as I mentioned above. I wasn't saying that the list was bad or another attempt of yours to take over the world, and I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my words that way. Writing a tiny little bit about why your subpages exist before anyone has to ask isn't going to hurt, really. (Especially after all this.) --Conti|✉ 15:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Those of you who pay attention to Wikimania may have noticed that I am doing a presentation on consensus. I am actually (with Gmaxwell's invaluable help) doing some research into things like voting patterns on RfA and AfD, and other such things, with the hopes of using the findings as part of that presentation or perhaps for later purposes. (I imagine very few of you know that I was a political science minor in college.) I don't think that such examination of Wikipedia's processes should be considered "disruptive", but I'm sure that someone will be quite ready to accuse me of it nonetheless, as it seems that there are certain elements of the community that are simply completely incapable of extending even the slightest bit of good faith to me. That particular page is data that Gmaxwell generously provided me; I created it there partially to work on it and partially to see who would react badly to it. Looks like Conti wins today's ABF prize. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- So, should I expect an interrogation here every time I create a subpage in my user space? Am I now required to post announcements regarding my every action? We treat convicted criminals better than this. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why has this gotten so blown out of proportion? So Kelly created a list, so what? There is no policy against having a list of users. There was no stated malicious intent by having a list. And unless malicious actions by Kelly were taken based on that list any assumptions of malicious intent a blatantly against WP:AGF. That list was just a list until Kelly's actions say otherwise or she states outright that it's a list being used for a malicous purpose. Neither of these conditions have been met. The only against policy actions have been taken by the two admins who blocked Kelly against policy and by anyone assuming the list has some bad intention behind it in direct violation of WP:AGF. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- To avoid undue repetition, I urge everyone to save the just an innocent list arguments and AGF invocations for the forthcoming RfAr. El_C 18:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As long as your own conduct will bear equally close scrutiny. Thatcher131 18:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I suspect with near-absolute certainty that it would, but that's not for me to decide. El_C 18:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Now now, no need to threaten him. However I would suggest holding off on an Arbcom on this as there really isn't any grounds for it. And frankly the people who have been giving Kelly a hard time are more likely to come out of the Arbcom with some form of sanction against them since Kelly did absolutely nothing wrong. However the same can't be said for several reactionary people accusing her of being "evil". JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It was in no way a threat, and I'm sorry if anyone took it that way (as if I could issue threats on behalf of anyone, much less Arbcom). It's just that Arbcom has a way of looking at both sides of a dispute. Thatcher131 20:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is no real dispute here which is why this is so funny. There is Kelly who created a list for her own reasons (which per WP:AGF policy have to be assumed to be good unless there is evidence to prove otherwise, which none has been presented). And then there are those that take exception to a list existing, basing those objections on no solid policy or guideline except their own violation of WP:AGF. Doesn't seem like a dispute to me. The attacking parties think they are owed some explaination by Kelly, but she is under no obligation to do so and it should have been dropped there. Instead several users have taken to blocking Kelly, against policy again. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Don't worry about it; in any case, I am undaunted. But I also feel this discussion is outliving its usefluness. El_C 20:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is no real dispute here which is why this is so funny. There is Kelly who created a list for her own reasons (which per WP:AGF policy have to be assumed to be good unless there is evidence to prove otherwise, which none has been presented). And then there are those that take exception to a list existing, basing those objections on no solid policy or guideline except their own violation of WP:AGF. Doesn't seem like a dispute to me. The attacking parties think they are owed some explaination by Kelly, but she is under no obligation to do so and it should have been dropped there. Instead several users have taken to blocking Kelly, against policy again. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It was in no way a threat, and I'm sorry if anyone took it that way (as if I could issue threats on behalf of anyone, much less Arbcom). It's just that Arbcom has a way of looking at both sides of a dispute. Thatcher131 20:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Now now, no need to threaten him. However I would suggest holding off on an Arbcom on this as there really isn't any grounds for it. And frankly the people who have been giving Kelly a hard time are more likely to come out of the Arbcom with some form of sanction against them since Kelly did absolutely nothing wrong. However the same can't be said for several reactionary people accusing her of being "evil". JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I suspect with near-absolute certainty that it would, but that's not for me to decide. El_C 18:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As long as your own conduct will bear equally close scrutiny. Thatcher131 18:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- To avoid undue repetition, I urge everyone to save the just an innocent list arguments and AGF invocations for the forthcoming RfAr. El_C 18:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well if you're going to open an arbcom please let users know. I for one will have 150+ words I'd like to get in edgewise. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, computer generated lists. Always look odd and scary to people not used to them, so I can understand the problem.
Even so, I'm flying across the Atlantic to be able to attend wikimania, and I'll probably want to go to Kelly Martins' talk as well. That's costing me quite a bit of time and money, as you might imagine (even *with* sponsoring). I do expect to actually be somewhat enlightened for my trouble of course.
Therefore, you can probably imagine I shall be somewhat unhappy if people interfere with Kelly Martins presentation in any way.
Kim Bruning 12:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Kaleen, Australian Capital Territory
Please look at the history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleen%2C_Australian_Capital_Territory. It has been repeatedly vandalised by 137.92.97.111 , Princeofkaleen, 58.169.8.255, Grizzlydeer, and 137.154.16.30.
Note that 210.9.138.222 is me as an unregistered user, and that my contribution was an attempt to remove the graffiti. Thanks! They come along about once every month... There's absolutely no need to act here. You can always sign up for a user account and get access to a watchlist to more easily monitor changes to the page though. Thanks. Sasquatch t|c 04:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User Removing Warnings and Stonewalling pages
- For some reason, whenever I post here, it gets ignored. Let's hope that doesn't happen this time.
- ED209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently removed an NPA and a AGF warning from his page. I would do something about it, but if I do, he'll just accuse me of vandalism. In addition, after removing them from his page, he copy/pasted them onto my page. I removed them as nonsense, but if an administrator could step in, it'd be much appreciated. Secondly, the same user is stonewalling any additions to Michael Di Biase. I have spent the last 3 days attempting to compromise, changing a dispute paragraph, providing citations, making it as neutral as humanly possible, yet he continues to make up total nonsense as reason not to include it. Not to mention his nonstop personal attacks. Honestly I feel as if I'm being assaulted from all sides here... I'd really appreciate some help. Again, could someone please step in and make a ruling here? His antics are preventing any progress on Vaughan related articles. - pm_shef 04:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have given him a warning about it the whole thing. Looks like he is very involved with articles related to Vaughan, Ontario, and has POV issues all over the place. Maybe a Request for comments is in order. Circeus 04:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Anybody who actually gets involved with this dispute better read the entire history of the situation. user:pm_shef is guilty of everything he accuses me. When he removes warnings from his talkpage it is fine, when I do it he calls it vandalism. His additions to the Michael Di Biase page are POV. His father is a Vaughan Councillor. He was quoted in the local newspaper as being a watchdog for Vaughan-related pages on the orders of his father. He has attacked me on many occasions, he is condescenting, and never assumes good faith. He has acted as a bully to me as a relatively new user. He has accused me of being a sockpuppet for user:VaughanWatch. I was proven innocent through an IP check and by the support of many admins. He still insinuates somehow connected to that user. Please help. ED209 04:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This entire situation looks like it really needs Mediation. And user:pm shef has not removed any warnings from his talk. Your adition was clearly retaliatory. Circeus 04:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This is really a strange situation. It seems every day or so, a "new" user or a user that has been dormant for months comes out of the woodworks and adds really POV information in either the Vaughan municipal election, 2006 article or the one about Di Biase. As a sample, see this edit that actually starts to mention this edit war in the article. Also, through all of this, I have not seen pm_shef make a personal attack or add anything that was too POV even though he has been significantly provoked. -- JamesTeterenko 04:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This edit has user:pm_shef deleting what I deem to be crucial information to his talk page. Admins and other users need to see this article to understand the situation. Yet, user:pm_shef deletes this. When I delete his sarcastic warnings off my page, he reports me. Go figure. ED209 04:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am not familiar with the entire Vaughan dispute, but something is definitely going on here. Both users are now having rather ridiculous quabbling on my talk page. ED, linkslike tehse do not belong there anyway and pm and every right to remove them. If anything they should have been posted on the proper article talk page. Circeus 04:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hope you do better at damage control than me. On my side, I shall go to bed, as it is past one in the morning here. Circeus 05:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
another troll/vandal
KJFhjf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Brand new account, vandalizes several random pages (see contribs), jumps into Klerck AfD to press for deletion, [130] and deletes a related section from Two Towers film article [131] with no edit summary. Might be sock of Werto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).
Update: see also RumDuck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who came in via the same IP as User:Werto according to User_talk:RumDuck. That IP has been blatantvandal-blocked several times and RumDuck appears to be a vandal [132]. Ryulong's post a few sections up has some more info. Phr (talk) 04:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User:South Philly, repeated editing of another's signed comments, and incivility
This user has repeatedly Changed people's comments, contrary to the vandalism policy, in the process misrepresenting the intent of the nominator of an WP:SFD listing ([133], [134], [135]), interleaved with highly discourteous denials and evasions of the point ([136], [137], [138], [139]) in response to my several requests that he cease doing so. I'd block him myself, but I'd prefer to avoid suggestions of being "too involved" (as the person reverting the vandalism and misrepresentation, the one on the receiving end of the incivility, and the one getting quite frankly highly annoyed at the whole business). At the very least, can someone else tell him to knock it off? The claims of "harassment", WP:DICK "cites" (great idea that, a page that lets people dispense insults purporting to be project-space references), and "only you have a problem with this" jibes are extremely wearing. Alai 06:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I notice that in a previous discussion on the user's talk page, after being blocked for inappropriate use of fair-use images on his user page, he used the same insult against the admin who blocked him: [140]. Use of WP:DICK to insult others seems to be a way of life for South Philly. Kasreyn 06:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The page Iran related articles noticeboard/Incidents has been created in main namespace, which seems to be the wrong place for it. Could some one please work out were the best place (Wikipedia:?) and move it, thank you. --Blue520 06:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry now known as Iran,shiite and middle east related articles noticeboard/Incidents. --Blue520 06:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I moved this to Wikipedia:Iran,shiite and middle east related articles noticeboard/Incidents. --Tony Sidaway 07:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- And, in turn, I've moved it to Wikipedia:Iran, Shi'a, and Middle East related articles noticeboard/Incidents. I am not involved with the project - I'm just applying consistent capitalization and word usage to the page name. ("Iran" and "Middle East" are both nouns, so the adjective "Shiite" doesn't really fit in.) Yes, I fixed the double redirects too. Zetawoof(ζ) 08:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I moved this to Wikipedia:Iran,shiite and middle east related articles noticeboard/Incidents. --Tony Sidaway 07:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Friedrich Bauder block please
He made an edit to Template:Dispute-resolution indicating that he is a sock or imitator fo the Communism vandal. -- Chris Ccool2ax contrib. 06:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Admin User:InShaneee is removing content from my talk page
This is a complaint regarding the behavior of Admin User:InShaneee, who removed content from my talk page (and that of others) which he claims to have identified as spam. There is no official wikipedia policy to remove internal spams on sight, as can be seen on the spams policy page. In general, removing content from talk pages is considered vandalism, and according to policy the only exception to that is removing personal attacks, which does not include spam. So technically this admin does not have a right to remove those posts from my page, and in doing so has obviously violated vandalism policy. The admin claims that these actions constitute common wikipedia practice. As they are, however, clearly against wikipedia policy, I asked him to stop them, so far without success. This informal complaint is a result of that fruitless discussion. Shervink 08:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)shervink
- When did he do that? Please provide the diffs. Thanks --Aminz 08:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent job by Inshaneee of mopping up this attempt to stack an AfD, and if Shervink wants the edit back he only has to re-revert. --Tony Sidaway 08:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, InShaneee's removal of Zereshk's post is just a symbolic action, since people will get the "You have new messages" anyway.
- But no worries, we have now Wikipedia:Iran,shiite and middle east related articles noticeboard/Incidents. Also, Shervink, be careful! Though you may not know the policy and this might be your first time, BUT you may be accused of being vowed to continue (read it with a particular stress on the word "vowed" please) accusation of vandalism and subsequently blocked for 48 hours which is longer than the typical 24 hours. Some of us here are good in reading your mind. --Aminz 08:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, even if you have over 15,000 edits to nearly 3,000 articles and after this long time of being in wikipedia, this is your first time doing something, then you are "vowed" to do it again. Since you are in serious need of doing that everyday! --Aminz 08:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- But that's not the end of story. Some other admins will congrat the admin who has special talent in reading your mind for his good job! Wonderful! Can it be even better? --Aminz 08:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Tony, maybe I'm not clear on this, but the message in the provided diff didn't seem to request a vote in either direction, it simply served to notify the user that a vote was taking place. Or were there other messages he placed which did ask for a specific kind of vote? I'm not clear on the policy here, so I would like to request that it be clarified: under what circumstances, if ever, is it appropriate to alert someone to an ongoing poll or vote? Kasreyn 09:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- A vote can nicely be stacked by selecting which users should be informed about it and which not, without giving anybody explicit instructions about how to vote...--Stephan Schulz 09:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the attempt can be made, but if someone who believes the opposite sees that talk page, they will be informed as well. I'm just curious what the actual policy is. Kasreyn 21:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- A vote can nicely be stacked by selecting which users should be informed about it and which not, without giving anybody explicit instructions about how to vote...--Stephan Schulz 09:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- A new research at the university of Wikipedia named "World through the eyes of different Admins" has shown that some people first take a position towards a matter and then try to find a reason to justify that position. --Aminz 09:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, I'm sorry but I really do not understand what you are talking about, especially that metaphysical stuff about reading my mind. You mean you want to have me blocked based on what you think I think? I think you should think that over. All I'm asking is a quote for which policies allow that admin to remove content from my talk page. He is in clear violation of Wikipedia:Vandalism and Wikipedia:Spamming, none of which identify internal spamming as vandalism and none of which allow it to be removed from a talk page by third parties. Shervink 09:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)shervink
- Shervink, I am not an admin. Were I, I wouldn't have been ignored [141]. If I were an admin, other admins would have NOT disputed my wrong decisions even when an editor cries for a tiny bit of attention and calls other admins for just looking into my so-called "light" punishment imposed on some other editor.--Aminz 09:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Arminz, your style of writing is rather involuted and does not parse well. I can't figure out what you're trying to say. Could you be more plain? Kasreyn 09:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Kasreyn, I didn't have much experience with both Zereshk and InShaneee, when I was involved in Zereshk's block by InShaneee. Zereshk asked all persian editors whom he knew, to vote for the AfD of the article Misconceptions about Iran (or moved to Views of Iran in Media or something similar). Well, Zereshk was spamming. It was his first time and he didn't know about the policy at all (as I can argue he even now doesn't know the details of what has happened to him now). From the very beginning, InShaneee was warning him of getting blocked. I have been around in wikipedia for awhile. I know, nobody gives a {{test4}} for a first time vandalism for example. Anyhow, I was at that time surprised with InShaneee's warning. Aside from the fact that Zereshk has over 15,000 edits to nearly 3,000 articles and this was his first time doing spamming, I told him that yes, he has done spamming but he was only notifying editors who have experience of living in both west and Iran. Zereshk added that some editors whom he has notified have given votes against his vote. Anyways, I asked the other editor who first reported Zereshk to notify several other editors on his choice. It was considered against policy and it passed. Please continue the story in the section on Zereshk here:[142] I was mainly objecting to the length of Zereshk's block and and that his controversial comments could be read or understood in other ways. I was "only" asking another admin to just "look into" this case. Nothing more. --Aminz 10:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This confusion probably would have been avoided with an explanatory edit summary (no offense to InShanneee, not all of anyone's edit summaries are exemplary). I've noticed that many admins and veteran editors get huffy when someone removes content from their talk page, often saying that they can decide things for themselves, yet they do it to others without due consideration or explanation (I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case). Also, while it looks like vote stacking in this case to me, whether it is vote stacking, and therefore whether it should be removed, is usually decided by someone who disagrees with the alleged vote stacker's opinion, which is less than ideal. Removing the comments may not do much good, anyway, since editors will still get a new message notification and they can see the deleted text in the history of their talk pages. Finally, while I am opposed to what he was trying to do, if AfD is really not a vote, how can there be vote stacking? -- Kjkolb 09:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- We are getting off-topic here. The point is this: As far as one can see from the actualpolicy, internal spamming is not vandalism:
- Wikipedia editors are not to engage in aggressive cross-posting in order to influence votes, discussions, requests for adminship, requests for comment, etc. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that [t]he occasional light use of cross-posting to talk pages is part of Wikipedia's common practice. However, excessive cross-posting goes against current Wikipedia community norms. In a broader context, it is unwiki...
- As you see, no mention of vandalism, let alone a request to remove by third parties. In a sense, it is a matter of point of view how much cross-posting is aggressive. Even then, it is not vandalism according to policy, and is not to be removed.
- On the other policy page we read under types of vandalism:
- Deleting the comments of other users from article Talk pages, or deleting entire sections thereof, is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long Talk page to a separate file and then remove the text from the main Talk page ...
- Thus, no mention of a legitimate deletion of internal spam or cross posting. According to policy, The deletion of those comments is thus vandalism. Shervink 12:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)shervink
- Um, Zereshk (talk · contribs) edited over 20 user talk pages in the space of 14 minutes, adding requests for users to vote in the afd. As you state, Wikipedia:Spamming policy notes Wikipedia editors are not to engage in aggressive cross-posting in order to influence votes, discussions, requests for adminship, requests for comment, etc. The policy at Wikipedia:Vandalism allows spam to be removed. Steve block Talk 12:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- For those who don't know, Aminz's comments above are simply mocking me over my block of Zereshk (I told him to stop spamming, he said he'd continue, so I blocked him)(incidentally, his user page is now a giant rant about the evils of me and wikipedia). As for my actions, I only wish that policy allowed me to delete the edits from the page history entirely, since rolling back the spam messages did almost nothing to stem the tide of one-sided votes. --InShaneee 22:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't "mocking" you; that is true for sure. If I don't write poetic or ambigious, you'll block me (for some n times 24 hours, where n is a natural number greater than or equal to 2) as well. And who says it was about you? ;) But I don't think you have already made the decision to block me after all. --Aminz 01:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Try assuming good faith. Talking like I'm block-crazy isn't very polite, either. --InShaneee 02:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I never said you are a "block-crazy"... Gosh! --Aminz 02:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have removed the personal attack from Zeresh's page, which Aminz immediately reverted, and had the temerity to lecture me about editing other people's User pages. I have blocked Aminz for 5 minutes for reverting to the personal attack, and have reverted and protected Zeresh's User page. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, please indicate on your user page that you are an admin. Next, I would be happy if other admins check the message I left for Zoe and how he is replying back to me:"(Aminz) had the temerity to lecture me about editing other people's User pages. " Thirdly, I am standing for justice. I promise that Zoe has not had even reviewed the case closely him/herself. I request Zoe to block for a week if his/her defend of InShaneee is based on his/her close review of the case. --Aminz 02:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I cannot possibly give any greater support to that suggestion than I am now. Either way, she shouldn't have to prove that she's an admin; any user is welcome to remove such hate-filled speech at their discretion. --InShaneee 02:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Zereshk feels he has been under injustice. He has the right to express himself. I see many people make fun of bush everyday. Of course, he didn't make fun of you. But we should let Zereshk to express himself. That's freedom of speech. --Aminz 03:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- He has no such right; quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. "Freedom of speech" simply means that the government can't pass laws that censor the people; Wikipedia is in no way related to any government, and thus is free to tell all its users what they can and can't say. That said, we'd like people to keep their opinions to themselves (or take them elsewhere, like a message board) and actually work on some articles. --InShaneee 03:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- InShaneee, true or false, there are two users who think the block at least in terms of its duration was not right. If they can not express themselves somewhere about their feelings, they can not work on the articles either. It may not be wiki policy but it is a humane thing. If you believe you were 100% correct in your decision, you should not be bothered by what Zereshk writes in his user page. Should you? If it is wrong, it will only prove something about himself and not about you. Similarly, all my posts here will prove something about myself if they are wrong and I have already accepted this. --Aminz 03:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Aminz, I have never ONCE blocked someone without someone complaining that it was wrong. I can think of at least half a dozen users who've told me just that, and I am happy to report that they are all incorrect. As you'll notice, there's yet to be one admin here who's said that Zereshk shouldn't have been blocked. Now, Wikipedia isn't humane, either. It's not here for you to do as you please. We're trying to write an encyclopedia here, thank you. Your innermost feelings can wait until you've surfed elsewhere. I wasn't bothered by what Zereshk wrote, but the point was he doesn't GET to write that. If you can't be productive and useful, you shouldn't be here, period. --InShaneee 03:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I have blocked both Zereshk and Aminz for 24 hours for personal attacks, disruption, and harrassment. There is no merit to any of their claims; they're just out for blood now. It must stop. --Cyde↔Weys 03:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not inclined to second Aminz' sympathies for the conduct of the other blocked editor, but I don't see that Aminz has violated any policy, in letter or in spirit, and no diffs have been provided to substantiate the charges of "harrassment and personal attacks". Someone has made a mistake here. Aminz should be unblocked.Timothy Usher 06:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Timothy. It seems to me that there is too much enthusiasm here on the part of the admins to block people. You have that right for a reason, and you might need to reconsider what that reason was.
- As for Inshaneee's post on my talk page, which I prefer to respond to here, I'm not saying Zereshk was right to do that. I'm saying that what you did is not strictly according to policy, which you by the way admit on my talk page "Just because it's not written down doesn't mean that it's not done by dozens of admins every day". So you mean admins can do as they please in Wikipedia? It's a good thing that you warned Zereshk, and maybe even that you blocked him (although I think for too long). What I am complaining to you about is only your editing of my talk page which I politely and respectfully ask you not to do in the future. I hope any misunderstandings are erased now. Shervink 09:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)shervink
Not untroubling
On Su-Laine Yeo's talkpage there is a comment by Heptor (17:34, 6 July 2006). Inbedded in that comment is a message in Chinese (Hanyu Pinyin), added by an IP [143]. It translates as follows: (secret/confidential) Su-Laine, could you please help me out. A friend wrote me an email and told me there is people who think that I am you. Don't know why. It's a mess. Could you please quickly on here tell them that you think homey is zion's son/zion's daughter. [name removed] is too much trouble (maybe he wants to die?). Thank you. I am clueless as to what this is all about but the message spooked me out. I trust hope there is people here who knows (if this should be handled, and if so) how to handle this. Thanks. אנונימוס Date: 10:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think anything really can be done. I don't even understand the translation. I gave him a warning but I had to say 'if' it was true because I can't read it. The IP is from Sweden and I don't understand at all. Yeah... if I understood more maybe I could be more helpful. gren グレン 11:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Has Su-Laine said anything about this? --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The translation is correct. However, as the above is the only contribution of its author, I suggest we stop scratching our heads on this unless evidence comes forth that User:TemporaryJohnSmith was not just trolling. Kusma (討論) 15:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is actually the first time I noticed the comment. I don't understand Chinese, by the way. It was added as part of vandalism that I mostly reverted, but I didn't notice this part. I'm going to remove it from my talk page now. I figure that the IP who added this is just up to create chaos around the Homeontherange sockpuppetry case. Su-Laine Yeo 17:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone else please take a look at Ryan4 (talk · contribs)? It seems to me he's spamming -- basically inserting advertising for an online book this time -- but I'd like another opinion or three. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 13:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Spam. The Crux of World History by Francisco Gil-White may be a great book, but if its not being cited as a source, adding it to multiple articles (how many? I got tired before I could count all the articles) in External links is spamming. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm really starting to get tired of JPGordon's personal vendetta against me. It's not spamming because: 1. The link is NOT COMMERCIAL, i.e. it provides no services for any fees, therefore it also 2. cannot be advertising. I added links to The Crux on pages such as The Greco-Persian conflict, Ezra, Nehemaiah, and Artaxerxes because there are specific chapters in the Book that present a very interesting Historical analysis of those particular topics, with specific reference to the history of the class conflict between the Jewish people and the Greeks and Romans around the time of the 1st Century. What on earth is spam about that? The only true guidelines about adding external links are that they cannot be the person's own website, they cannot be commercial links, and the amount of one particular viepoint should not dominate if that viewpoint is out of the mainstream. I have broken none of those rules. Ryan4Talk 18:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Personal vendetta"? What would I possibly want vengeance for? You've done nothing to offend me one way or another. However, anytime anyone inserts identical links into over a dozen articles in twenty minutes, those links are going to undergo very strong scrutiny. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The unpublished book appears to offer an highly opinionated view of history (Chapter 1: The Roman ‘Final Solution’ in the first and second centuries; why it happened, and why you never heard about it. Chapter 2: Enter the villain: Alexander.) Further the author, Francisco Gil-White, does not seem to be significantly more notable than most professors. -Will Beback 19:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- As an unpublished work, the link cannot be intended to serve as a reliable source. The link is being added to all these articles to promote Gil-White. It's spam, even if it's not commercial. Pete.Hurd 21:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
70.59.95.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
70.59.95.119 (talk · contribs) has been using the edit summery to make death threats and racist/nationalist/antisemitic comments. Major and intentional breach of NPA, CIVIL, etc. Someone check out the contribs and ban immediately befor more damage can be done. ---J.S (t|c) 14:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I see someone has blocked the IP recently. Please take such matters to WP:AIV in the future, where you will likely get a quicker reaction. -- JamesTeterenko 14:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Didn't seem like vandalism to me. Just violations of 8 other rules. ---J.S (t|c) 15:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I personally regard such blatently racist comments as vandalism, especially with no other contributions. I see that some of his comments have been deleted from article histories already because they were so bad. I wouldn't hesitate blocking the IP if I saw this on AIV. -- JamesTeterenko 17:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Didn't seem like vandalism to me. Just violations of 8 other rules. ---J.S (t|c) 15:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
vandalism at hannah spearritt
sorry if this is the wrong place etc. etc. - 81.170.59.56 has been vandalising Hannah_Spearritt for half hour or so, and has now created an account, User:Maxclifford (name of a famous PR guy / scandal merchant in UK) - and carried on.... hope this helps! Petesmiles 14:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Both blocked; and, WP:AIV is where this goes in the future. Thanks! :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 14:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
New PoolGuy antics
So it appears PoolGuy is using some interesting new avenues for his complaints.
First, there's this Mediation Cabal case I stumbled across a few days ago that smelled funny to me, as I regularly read these pages and have followed the PoolGuy situation; today, User:AquaticTheory posted detail outlining that the complaint being made involves the GoldToeMarionette RFCU that he apparently feels was done without proper justification. (I assume this follows along after the rejection of the ArbCom case on that topic.)
Then there's this discussion that started from the Association of Member Advocates page, in which User:WelshCountryside tells the same story as AquaticTheory, though hasn't filled out the detail quite yet.
I posted both of these links to User:Mackensen's page after spotting them and seeing he had been involved with the RFCU side of things, but after seeing the new detail posted today, thought a post here would be appropriate. Tony Fox (speak) 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Blocked both as obvious socks of banned editor User:PoolGuy. --Tony Sidaway 16:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
{Sock manifesto removed}pschemp | talk 12:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- You have been talked to again and again and again. There was an arbitration case which ended in the very clear result that you are allowed one account, either PoolGuy or a new account. GoldToeMarionette will not be unblocked, and since you can't behave like a sensible adult, PoolGuy will not be unblocked either. If you want to create a new account, edit Wikipedia articles, and drop all this infantile crap, that route is open to you. Given your history as PoolGuy, however, it's pretty clear you have no real interest in contributing to Wikipedia. Hence the community ban. --ajn (talk) 06:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- A postscript: if you have a problem with any of this, the only solution - the only solution - is to appeal to the arbitration committee to have that decision changed. Mediation and whining on AN/I and creating sockpuppets are going to get you absolutely nowhere. --ajn (talk) 08:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
User removing warnings from his talk page
What do we do in this situation? [144] --Liface 16:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- User:Pgk protected the talkpage so the user can't remove warnings anymore. 207.145.133.34 19:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I've given User:Nomae a warning about dubious edits. Frankly, I think I'm being very generous in extending any assumption of good faith here. Someone may want to keep an eye on him. - Jmabel | Talk 17:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Removing CFD notices and removing proposal from CFD
Please investigate the behaviour of BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). She is removing the notices from categories which I have tagged for discussion at CFD, and striking out the cats from the CFD page itself. --Mais oui! 17:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like she is objecting to you tacking on those categories onto an existing merge discussion. Feel free to create a new discussion (and include a link to the original, please). Syrthiss 17:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, Syrthiss. You are correct: my objection is solely to their being tacked onto an existing merge discussion, which I feel raises some subtlely different issues (although user:Mais oui! disagrees). Please may I have some admin assistance in preventing them from being tacked on the existing CFM? User:Mais oui! and I are getting into an edit-warring situation, which I find very unpleasant, and there is a simple solution available through a separate CFM, where we can see if any separate issues create a different consensus. --BrownHairedGirl 17:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Libellous use of my username
User:Pat Paine was recently set up, and left an offensive message on my talk page. His entire userpage is the same message. I have reason to believe this user is User:NickTellis who got irate and abusive when I deleted a piece of his vandalism. He is the roommate of another WP editor, whose name I do not want to disclose as he is a responsible editor. Pat Payne 18:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Update: He has also vandalized my userpage placing libellous content there. [[145]]Pat Payne 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've blocked him for the inappropriate username. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This user edited User:Mike Rosoft's userpage (diff), adding references to Josef Stalin and "Wikipedia is Communism". He also edited a user subpage (User:Mike Rosoft/Spambot) and changed all User:Mike Rosoft's spambot links to a an email address purporting to be Stalin's... I reverted his edits and the user (I assume it to be Richard) then edited (diff) my userpage from an IP, adding in the WiC and Stalin references. I think he should be blocked as the Communism Vandal or more likely an impostor of. — Gary Kirk | talk! 18:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Mantanmoreland using a sockpuppet and violating policies
User:Mantanmoreland has been editing Gary Weiss along with his sockpuppet User:Lastexit. See Fred Bauder's comments at [146]. Both accounts have harrassed User:WordBomb who attempted to edit the article but was blocked indefinitely. Both Mantonmoreland and Lastexit have voted on at least one AFD[147]. 130.15.164.51 19:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Lastexit hasn't edited the article since April 29. Do you have any evidence that sockpuppet abuse is continuing now? (ESkog)(Talk) 19:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The AFD in which they both voted ended May 18. They continue to edit the same articles, for instance Naked short selling which LastExit last edited on July 20[148] and Mantanmoreland last edited on July 22. WordBomb is still blocked indefinitely for having edited Gary Weiss and having accused Mantanmoreland of using a sockpuppet. This means there has also been possible Admin abuse that should be looked at. 130.15.164.51 19:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- User:WordBomb's edit history shows nothing that justifies a block[149], certainly not an indefinite one which should only be handed down by Jimbo or by the ArbComm, not by an admin acting on her own. 130.15.164.51 19:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- WordBomb is blocked indefinitely for having posted what he believes are an editor's personal details. When asked for an assurance that it wouldn't happen again, he reposted them on his talk page. Since then, he has been harassing various people by e-mail, and has evaded the block several times with sockpuppets. He has made no useful contributions and should definitely stay blocked. As for the sockpuppet allegations, FloNight and Fred Bauder are dealing with the situation. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Didn't WordBomb do this the second time after you asked for proof of the sockpuppet allegation?130.15.164.51 20:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Since you don't seem to be catching this... the block was given FOR saying that users were 'Gary Weiss', which you keep doing. Whether you are correct or not, this is an attempt to 'out' the real identity of a user and not permitted. While Wikipedia does discourage people editing articles about themselves that does not constitute a reason to violate privacy restrictions. The {{autobiography}} template should only be used when it is known for a fact that the person has edited the article, and even then the particular user should not be identified unless they have publically revealed/acknowledged their identity. --CBD 13:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Gary Weiss has been accused of editing his biographical article under a pseudonym. Shouldn't Wikipedia:Autobiography apply here?130.15.164.81 21:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Removal of tags by SlimVirgin
Contrary to policy User:SlimVirgin has removed an {{autobiography}} tag [150] from Gary Weiss despite the fact that Weiss has been editing that article using various sockpuppets. She has also removed a sockpuppet alert from the talk page[151]. Neither tag named the useraccount, they simply notified readers of the situation. 130.15.164.126 23:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- What evidence can your provide to support these assertions? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- The following list is incomplete but begins to address your request for supporting evidence.
- Mantanmoreland created the article about Gary Weiss[152]
- Then he added a link to an article (from 1997!) written by Gary Weiss[153]
- Then he added a reference to a book by Gary Weiss[154]
- Then he added another reference to a book by Gary Weiss[155]
- Then he added another reference to a book by Gary Weiss[156]
- Then he added another reference to a book by Gary Weiss[157]
- Then he added another reference to a book by Gary Weiss[158]
- Then, some funny editor removed a single adjective about the book by Gary Weiss and Mantanmoreland reverts without explanation[159]
- Tomstoner, a suspected Mantanmoreland sockpuppet, added a reference to a book by Gary Weiss[160]
- Confirmed Mantanmoreland sockpuppet Lastexit is also the only other substantive contributor to the article about Gary Weiss[161]
- Lastexit added a reference to an article by Gary Weiss[162]
- Lastexit added another reference to an article by Gary Weiss[163]
- Mantanmoreland voted to delete the article about Josie Robertson, whose husband Julian once sued Gary Weiss for $1-billion[164]. The deletion nomination came from Lastexit[165]--66.102.186.21 00:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- In addition, have a look at the page history, look at the diffs provided. Slim isn't the one making these edits. Guettarda 23:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- This appears to be WordBomb who has been harassing User:Mantanmoreland, posting what he believes are Mantan's personal details, and adding nonsense to Gary Weiss. He has also been harassing people by e-mail. It's a longish story and I'll pass on details by e-mail to any admin who wants to see them. I didn't remove any tags, but I sprotected Gary Weiss and talk page, and Mantanmoreland's user and talk pages, which are also under attack. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Please see User_talk:Mantanmoreland and tell me where the violation is that justified protection? Slim is protecting her friend, alright, but for all the wrong reasons. 130.15.164.126 23:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've protected it so you can't post to it again. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Facts as I understand them: User:Mantanmoreland and User:Lastexit have been confirmed to be sock-puppets by Fred Bauder. These accounts have improperly supported each other in discussions, edit disputes, and/or consensus 'votes'. Our anon, who is apparently User:WordBomb (again, per Fred), further suspects that User:Tomstoner is the same person and that all of them are Gary Weiss... and has been indefinitely blocked for stating this belief and thereby revealing what he thought to be personal info about an account holder. That about right? If so, then I'd say 'all of the above' ought to be watched and the lack of a block on either Mantanmoreland or Lastexit seems a bit odd. --CBD 13:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Here is an email that was sent to me via Wiki Email by the user who commenced this discussion:
From: "IPFrehley"
To: "Mantanmoreland"
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 11:57 PM
Subject: Wikipedia e-mail
Gary,
Just wanted to thank you for responding so perfectly today. This is going to be easier than I thought. Talk to you again soon.
IPF"
He is referring to being blocked three times under three different user names, in pursuing this nutty vendetta against Gary Weiss who he is convinced I am. After this he whipped up a chain letter [166] which he posted from various aliases on a number of user pages of people he presumed to have ill will toward myself and SlimVirgin.
At one point he sent around an email calling me (as his proxy for "Weiss") a "cancer" and saying: "I pushed back much harder than I normally would, and chose to operate outside the normal protocols, because the idea behind that exercize was to gather intel and save my bullets, not affect change. The time has come to affect change."
Then he moved here, pursuing an off-Wiki cyberstalking campaign (of questionable legality) here, and giving his Internet audience a blow-by-blow.[167]. In the link, the Yahoo alias is the same as the email address of WordBomb/IPFrehley. Make no mistake about it: what you are dealing with is a determined and relentless off-Wiki cyberstalking campaign by an anonymous person who goes to great lengths to switch IP addresses to preserve his anonymity. The file originally posted by WordBomb and since deleted was professionally put together, and his switching from IP to IP shows a determination to evade detection -- not to mention evade the block on his three named aliases, which he has of course done very easily.
He has so many IPs and aliases that it is hard to keep track of them. Three named aliases have been blocked and a fourth (User:Schroedinger the Cat) remains active. That was created yesterday for the purpose of harassing the administrator who blocked him.--Mantanmoreland 13:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- There have been bizarre e-mail threats, including that he's going to the media to expose Wikipedia. He also sent me a link that appeared to be a live link to a Wikipedia user account, but in fact went elsewhere, presumably hoping I'd click on it so he'd have my IP address. Not a good-faith actor. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Wordbomb and Mantanmoreland/Lastexit are two different issues and it looks like Wordbomb has already been blocked so that's done with. Checkuser confirms the sockpuppetry so both Mantanmoreland and Lastexit and possibly this third sock should be blocked for violating WP:SOCK by pretending to be different people as was done with Anomicene and Gnetwerker discussed here. 70.48.90.54 19:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Myself and User:Ghirlandajo, again
moved to AN, after consideration Circeus 20:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
History Student (talk · contribs)
User was recently blocked for repeated attempts to recreate deleted article Japanese American Evacuation of 1942, as well as behavior noted in this RfC. Has appeared again in Talk:Japanese American internment as 69.57.136.39 (talk · contribs) and 70.129.12.61 (talk · contribs) and admits to spoofing his IP address to get around the block [168]. --NeoChaosX 20:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I noted on the talk page of that RFC the pile o potential sockpuppets he created, listed (and blocked) at Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of History Student. --Syrthiss 22:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Another address he has posted under is 200.88.223.98 (talk · contribs). --NeoChaosX 00:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I have already stated that I don't like the common practice when people are blocked / sent to a "cooling-off" period for non-extreme incivility, dubious personal attacks or minor disruptions. These should be treated by ignoring, walking away, calmly discussing and not by blocking. The policies clearly state, that an editor should only be blocked for personal attacks in extreme cases, and that blocks are not punitive but preventive. I don't know form what Zoe wanted to prevent me by issuing the last block, probably from commenting his/her mocking of what I did on wikipedia. Anyway, what we actually have here are policies, that say one thing (block only preventive, in extreme cases) and then we have the admin consensus, that it is OK to block for minor PA/disruption and any argumentation in the sense of "this shouldn't be done according to the policies" is defaced as "wikilawyering". The reason for only blocking in extreme cases is clear, admins shouldn't offend editors who might have a lot of work on wikipedia behind them and get involved in a heated debate by blocking them right away. It is only laziness that the admins block so often. Azmoc 20:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- [169] another example of harrassment. I don't want to be told "now stop that" because I tried to send a nice message to wikipedia users, I don't want to hear "wikilawyering" everytime I say something, and now what JzG said is a complete nonsense, as I didn't mention any rule or policy. Please somebody tell JzG to stop harrassing me. Azmoc 21:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- What part of the "No solicitation" at the top of my talk page was unclear? Talk page spammers should expect to rough it. The fifteen-minute block was wholly appropriate as it stopped the spamming. Mackensen (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a "nice" message. You're telling people they're wasting their time here, and they should go volunteer somewhere else, and you were spamming it all over the place. I was going to block you myself but Cyde did it first. Antandrus (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think a fifteen minute block was way too lenient for someone spamming 'leave wikipedia' notices. --InShaneee 21:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, I didn't solicit for noone, I am not associated with any NGO that would need volunteers, and saying the truth about what you have to give up to be a "wikipedian" doesn't break any policies or rules here, does it? Anyway, I am going to use the message only occassionaly, so don't worry about the spamming. Azmoc 22:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be used at ALL. This is an encyclopedia, not MySpace. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean this is the place to go telling it to everyone. --InShaneee 22:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why not? You do that too, right? You discuss the functioning of wikipedia with other users, right? You even have special places for it, right? Like village pump, right? Azmoc 22:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be used at ALL. This is an encyclopedia, not MySpace. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean this is the place to go telling it to everyone. --InShaneee 22:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I am previously uninvolved. I've reviewed this user's contributions and history (Azmoc (talk • contribs • count)) and support the current block of 48 hours. Azmoc needs to stop leaving disruptive messages and wikilawyering about it. ++Lar: t/c 22:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- (He's not currently blocked, the 48 hours was an old, unrelated block). --InShaneee 22:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Right, Lar. You reviewed my contributions and history thoroughly, I can see. Thank you for your uninformed assumptions. I am User:Ackoz previously, maybe you would want to check that out too, your way of investigating (i.e. checking nothing at all, just babbling) would find that I have like 500 indefinite blocks on that nick. Greetings. Azmoc 22:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yep, sorry, was not intentional. Too many users posting and I got into like 5 edit conflicts. Azmoc 22:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
User:SPUI in continuing to ignore sanctions put in place by the Arbcom 3 weeks ago with regard to state highway articles. On Minnesota State Highway 33 SPUI has engaged in an revert/edit war with User:Jonathunder in direct violation of section 2.1 of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Highways which explicitly prohibits himself and any other involved parties from engaging in disruptive editing of highway articles. Full text of the decision is as following "2.1) Should SPUI, JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, and PHenry disrupt the editing of any article which concerns highways he or she may be banned by any administrator from that article or related articles. All bans are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Highways#Log of blocks and bans." He's violated this many times since the end of arbcom, this is just the latest time. --JohnnyBGood 21:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think this belongs on Arbitration Enforcement actually? 207.145.133.34 21:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- No one ever reads that board, hence I've put it here. --JohnnyBGood 21:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well. I sometimes read it. In any case I've had a word with SPUI and Jonathunder over Minnesota State Highway 33. SPUI has reacted well to such reminders in the recent past so I expect that will be the end of it in this instance. --Tony Sidaway 21:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- How many warnings does he get. This is the second or third time in a week you've warned him. He's violating his probation, you obviously agree or you wouldn't be warning him. Are the warnings indefinite as long as he moves his disruption around? Cause if so I'd like to make some controversial edits that could be seen as disruptive but have so far restrained myself. --JohnnyBGood 21:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Also he's obviously not receptive to such warnings if he's continuing to edit war just at different articles. --JohnnyBGood 22:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm being patient and reasonable. If SPUI continues to get into these little squabbles despite multiple warnings, he may find himself sanctioned. In the past there has been a lack of community confidence in enforcement actions taken against SPUI, and I'm sure you agree that it wouldn't be sensible to impose a sanction only to have it overturned. --Tony Sidaway 22:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- True there has been SOME irregularity in sanctions against him in the past (most of the sanctions were justified in the past if just through the sheer number of them). But that was before there was a set ruling against him written in the perverbial cyber stone saying he can't do this anymore. Yet he continues to do so. Sanctions at this point have arbcom backing when it comes to disruption of highway articles and any admin wheelwarring a block against him now is violating the arbcom ruling. You understand my fustration here. If he's on probation he should be on probation, otherwise call it what it is and say the probation means jack shit and he, myself and any other editors subject to it don't have to follow it. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well. I sometimes read it. In any case I've had a word with SPUI and Jonathunder over Minnesota State Highway 33. SPUI has reacted well to such reminders in the recent past so I expect that will be the end of it in this instance. --Tony Sidaway 21:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- What about blocking and banning the idiot who came up with an article about Highway 33 in the first place? We don't need articles about Minnesota highways on here. Nor do we need articles about "historic places" in Minnesota, like the author's other contributions. If nobody had created the article on Highway 33 (with an admittedly wrong title, to boot), this fiasco would never have started. --Elkman 23:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- How about we refrain from personal attacks on the person who created the article. And for the record there is plenty of evidence the creator had it in the right place to begin with. And we do need HW 33 on here as it is part of a series of State Highways. JohnnyBGood 23:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that this comment doesn't really have any relevance to the discussion at hand. Isopropyl 00:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Elkman is the person who created that article, he writes a lot about Minnesota, and he was ironically expressing regret that he had given the participants in this latest spat a further opportunity to engage in warring. --Tony Sidaway 00:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Technically, Jonathunder first violated Remedy 6 of that ruling (I've no idea if he was aware of it, mind you), and then SPUI vio'd #2.1, and #6 too (which of course he certainly was). Then add in some tagging/tag-reversion silliness to boot. I'm with Tony on calling this one "fair warning fodder", given the digs on both sides, but would support (and implement) escalating enforcement if this continues. Alai 04:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I posted a new version of my message on his talk. I notified him, that I am not mass-posting this and that I am only giving this message to him. One message doesn't qualify as spamming in any sense. I only post this here because I think he is going to block me for that post with the reason spam Azmoc 21:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- For someone who claims to want to do so much good, your attitude toward your fellow editors isn't that great. People spend their time here because they've chosen to do so. We are all capable of making our own choices here and aware of the options. If you think this is a waste of time, you are welcome to go elsewhere, but you may not disrupt this community to do so. Please do not post your message any further, especially not to those who have removed your previous messages to them. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 22:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Some people watch television for 6 hours a day because they've chosen so. They are capable of making their choices, and aware of the options. Still, I will tell them that they should reconsider if they are spending their time wisely, and advise them to do something else. Wikipedia is the same addiction. I advise people to reconsider what they are doing. Azmoc 22:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Don't go into a church and preach evolution. Go preach it somewhere else. Sasquatch t|c 22:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the place for activism, and it is most certainly not the place for anti-Wikipedia activism.--SB | T 22:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Huh? That's a weird position. Actually, if more churchgoers understood science then we wouldn't have such ridiculous situations as the president getting away with using his first veto on life-saving research. I say we go into more churches and teach evolution. If anything, the statement you meant to say is "Don't go into a science classroom and teach creationism." --Cyde↔Weys 22:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- See - you would also go into the church. So don't blame me for this one. Azmoc 22:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Don't go into a church and preach evolution. Go preach it somewhere else. Sasquatch t|c 22:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Some people watch television for 6 hours a day because they've chosen so. They are capable of making their choices, and aware of the options. Still, I will tell them that they should reconsider if they are spending their time wisely, and advise them to do something else. Wikipedia is the same addiction. I advise people to reconsider what they are doing. Azmoc 22:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
If no one has any objections, I support (and would be glad to carry out) a short block of Azmoc for disruption should he post this sort of message again. --InShaneee 22:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, and if they asked me to leave, I would. You didn't, and you got trespassed and banned from the premises permanently. --Cyde↔Weys 13:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wouldn't object to a very long block, either. Anti-Wikipedia activism is something we shouldn't tolerate here, for obvious practical reasons. Kirill Lokshin 22:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Unless he is actively disrupting Wikipedia right now, or is credibly threatening to do so, a block for disruption per se is not appropriate. --Tony Sidaway 22:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, he's certainly threatening to continue posting his message. I would say that's credible enough for our purposes. Kirill Lokshin 22:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, that was like half an hour ago, Mr. Manipulator. After that I said, lets bring this to ArbCom, I don't want to get blocked. Azmoc 22:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, he's certainly threatening to continue posting his message. I would say that's credible enough for our purposes. Kirill Lokshin 22:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Unless he is actively disrupting Wikipedia right now, or is credibly threatening to do so, a block for disruption per se is not appropriate. --Tony Sidaway 22:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't preach. I am telling the person sitting next to me in a church that I don't believe in everything the priest says. Am I not allowed to do that in a church? And who told you that this was a anti-wikipedia activism? Let's get this to the ArbCom, I don't want to be blocked and I want to use that message. Azmoc 22:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Any more of this nonsense Wikilawyering and I will block for a nice long time. --Cyde↔Weys 22:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- For what? Stop threatening me. Azmoc 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- There's a difference between threats and warnings. You've been warned, and I suggest you take it to heart. --InShaneee 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, you're going to a church and telling the person beside you that they are wasting there time and that they should stop going to church... And I concur with Cyde. Despite his rather sarcastic comment about preaching creationism :-P Sasquatch t|c 22:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Warned? For what? For preaching? You really make me laugh. Azmoc 22:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Let he who is without sin cast the first copy of The Origin of Species, etc... :-D -- ChrisO 22:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, although I am not breaking any rules here, I will not use that message. I will, however sometimes say something similar on users' talkpages, it will not have a form of a pre-formulated message, I will take the care and formulate my thoughts each time in a new way. Sorry but there's nothing you could do against that even if you don't like that. Azmoc 22:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Err, no. Messages asking people to avoid contributing to Wikipedia are not acceptable, regarless of whether they're pre-formatted or not. Kirill Lokshin 22:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why??? Some people do place messages like "remind me if I contribute too much" on their pages. Who said it was not acceptable? Did you decide? Did the community decide? Who decided? I guess its just you Kirill, so stop harrassing me I am not afraid of you. Azmoc 22:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- blocked indefinitey dissruption in the form of trying to stop major contributers from doing so and trolling. I'm not interested in playing games. Further justifaction under the rules can be provided if needed.Geni 22:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Good riddance. Kirill Lokshin 22:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- blocked indefinitey dissruption in the form of trying to stop major contributers from doing so and trolling. I'm not interested in playing games. Further justifaction under the rules can be provided if needed.Geni 22:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why??? Some people do place messages like "remind me if I contribute too much" on their pages. Who said it was not acceptable? Did you decide? Did the community decide? Who decided? I guess its just you Kirill, so stop harrassing me I am not afraid of you. Azmoc 22:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Err, no. Messages asking people to avoid contributing to Wikipedia are not acceptable, regarless of whether they're pre-formatted or not. Kirill Lokshin 22:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, although I am not breaking any rules here, I will not use that message. I will, however sometimes say something similar on users' talkpages, it will not have a form of a pre-formulated message, I will take the care and formulate my thoughts each time in a new way. Sorry but there's nothing you could do against that even if you don't like that. Azmoc 22:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- For what? Stop threatening me. Azmoc 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I too support the block. He does not appear to do anything other than disrupt. -- JamesTeterenko 22:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I obviously agree with it. What a loon. --Cyde↔Weys 22:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I support the block in accordance with Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Users who exhaust the community's patience--A Y Arktos\talk 23:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I support it as well. FeloniousMonk 23:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ditto. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Why did you even wait this long? We have more important things to do than debate with trolls. *mboverload gives everyone a carbon-fiber stick so they can swing it easier* --mboverload@ 23:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
<-- over here again; I support this too, especially because his last User talk edit reveals him to be a sockpuppet of another neighborhood troll who invoked his m:Right to vanish. (ESkog)(Talk) 23:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmmm, don't think they'll go away that easily. History here has shown us that dissenters who are indeffed because of some arguement usually come back with a squad of sockpuppets. Perhaps an arbcom case or RFC would yield more justice for their side? It would give them no excuse to decry a lack of fairness. And a formal case would help get more wikipedians on the lookout for sockpuppet accounts if they decide to take that route. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- They got justice and arbcom is busy. People who ahve been through arbcom often decry a lack of fairness in any case.Geni 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- See PoolGuy, for example. ArbCom decisions tend to throw things back to administrators anyway - probation and allowing bans from articles often end up with the user being banned shortly after the ArbCom case, because people who have got that far down the road are often the obsessive types who can't let things drop even when they know there will be dire consequences if they don't. --ajn (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- They got justice and arbcom is busy. People who ahve been through arbcom often decry a lack of fairness in any case.Geni 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm, good point. I still like formal process though. Plus, some arbcommers have already contributed to this thread. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmmm, don't think they'll go away that easily. History here has shown us that dissenters who are indeffed because of some arguement usually come back with a squad of sockpuppets. Perhaps an arbcom case or RFC would yield more justice for their side? It would give them no excuse to decry a lack of fairness. And a formal case would help get more wikipedians on the lookout for sockpuppet accounts if they decide to take that route. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- The formal process works well when you have time, but this one just came to a head very suddenly. Unfortunately, disruptive editors and people who cause these ANI train-wrecks waste far more of our time than vandals, and sometimes a community ban is the only way to get the problem to stop. I think we did the right thing here, thanks Geni. Antandrus (talk) 03:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- In an open-and-shut case, arbitration is deprecated as a waste of time. Arbitration doesn't scale. We still have only 14 arbitrators (of whom 10-12 are normally active at any one time) whereas we're getting new administrators every day and community bans are easily administered. If there isn't community agreement on such a ban, then we can go to arbitration. --Tony Sidaway 14:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Tony is right here, admins should ban away according to their understanding of policy, as long as they don't wheel-war. How many active admins do we have at this point? I predict that as soon as we have significantly more than 1,000 active admins, the "mature editor consensus system" will break down (meaning almost nothing will get done by admin-consensus) and we'll need a whole new layer of bureaucracy for interaction between admins. dab (ᛏ) 15:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Arbitration already provides something called "General probation", a remedy enabling an editor to be banned from Wikipedia for reasonable cause on the agreement of any three administrators. This is already very close to our more informal community ban system, and as administrator numbers grow I don't anticipate any scaling problems. Administrators who persistently stick a spoke in the wheels (Everyking springs to mind) tend not to fare well. --Tony Sidaway 15:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
A strange request was left on the Medcab talk page concerning User:Qho and User:89.32.1.82. It appears Qho posted the personal information of IP on his/her userpage (diff). I'm utterly baffled by what's going on here, but the IP address was blocked by User:Yamla for editing other peoples' comments, meanwhile Qho has left some threatening messages on the IP's talk page. If anything, the userpage edit should probably be removed from the history, but Qho needs to cool down at the moment. I brought the issue here to see what should be done. Cowman109Talk 22:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Note: The "personal information" that was left appears to be an extract from a WHOIS lookup, [172] though these may be the contact details for a small ISP or business rather than the individual editor. Road Wizard 23:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, the IP address is clearly being harassed, and that should probably be looked at. It seems the IP was removing such edits that were harassing him and is being punished for that, which is also why I brought this here as things seem a bit iffy. Cowman109Talk 23:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be best to have a removal of this personal info from the edit history, in order to protect this person from further harassment. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, the IP address is clearly being harassed, and that should probably be looked at. It seems the IP was removing such edits that were harassing him and is being punished for that, which is also why I brought this here as things seem a bit iffy. Cowman109Talk 23:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is definitely something unusual and inappropriate going on there. The all caps typing and unusual messages makes me think he needs a time-out or someone needs to have a chat with him. The posting of personal information (whether or not it actually was, its the attempt that counts) bothers me though and certainly needs to be looked at. He admits here [173] to his behaviour and I note no ban, yet the IP was banned for 48 hours. Even with the IP being uncivil, this user still went ahead and tried to put personal information on the page.--Crossmr 06:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Racist edits
It's bedtime where I live. Could someone please keep an eye on the edits of Ratty5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thanks. AnnH ♫ 23:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Good grief. It will be bedtime where I live fairly soon; I will watch for a little but someone else will need to check later. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry; the "good grief" was at the edits, not at the bedtime. Massive apologies for any confusion. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This user (and a few of his/her IP address sock-puppets I suspect) have been removing information from Joe Francis and Girls Gone Wild numerous times in an attempt to keep his image clean . I and others have warned him/her numerous times and I need an administrator to take action. Any help will be greatly appreciated. - Ouzo 00:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I can see two recent editing sessions which have been reverted by User:Ouzo. I don't think semi-protection is yet warranted.--A Y Arktos\talk 00:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Edit warring by sockpuppet on Anarcho-capitalism
User:70.48.250.129, most likely a sockpuppet, has been removing information from the A-C article, and reverting anybody who attempts to add it back in. See [174], [175], and [176]. --AaronS 00:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- He seemed to stop after 2 reverts.--Crossmr 06:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- He's back at it. --AaronS 12:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is mass-moving pages from Name X. Lastname to Name FullMiddleName Lastname. We discussed this yesterday, and I suggested that he get consensus and find out which of the versions of the name is more common, as this is what is mandated by the MoS, but he did not respond, and now is doing this moving without discussion. I'm on the verge of blocking him if he doesn't respond to my impassioned plea to stop. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
He threatens to continue his moves tomorrow. I have warned him that if he does, I will block him. I am in the middle of reverting all of his moves. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I hae to leave now, and have only scratched the surface of these moves. Could somebody else please pick up from where I left off? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe there's a way disable the page move tab for him (new users don't get the tab, for example). See also [177] [178] for more silliness from this guy. Phr (talk) 03:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yow, there's at least 1000 of those moves. I wouldn't even think of trying to undo them by hand. If there's not already a bot that can undo them, I'll write one. Let me know. Phr (talk) 03:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would say about half of them are done; I am still working on it (slowly) and I blocked this user indefinite. While I blocked this user before, and could be seem biased, doing over 800 page moves is, in my view, major disruption. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yow, there's at least 1000 of those moves. I wouldn't even think of trying to undo them by hand. If there's not already a bot that can undo them, I'll write one. Let me know. Phr (talk) 03:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
No reason not to show this user the door. This user clearly performed mass pagemove vandalism without cause, and Zscout is being nice enough to take lots of time out and revert. Clearly not a user equipped with constructive edits by any means. --Pilotguy (roger that) 04:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I stopped the page moves for now; about under 300 to go (including talk pages). Others are taking over now, which I am grateful for, since my arm is dead. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- This looks like a major case of disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point and I think the block was warrented as page moves on that scale are highly disruptive. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - - 07:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
All page moves have been finished as of now. If there are any move errors that I caused, let me know so they can be fixed. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- My petty complaints aside, I support the block. - brenneman {L} 07:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I also support. This user has been trouble in other areas before. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- People that say "I see no policy saying what I'm doing is wrong", and not "What I'm doing isn't wrong" are usually wrong. I support this block. --Lord Deskana (talk) 08:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I also locked his user talk page, since he was begining to use that to assail me and to use it as a soapbox to prevail against the "collective punishment" he got. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- People that say "I see no policy saying what I'm doing is wrong", and not "What I'm doing isn't wrong" are usually wrong. I support this block. --Lord Deskana (talk) 08:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support block. Norton is clearly operating with m:MPOV. Zscout370's comment on irc after manually entering a few dozen (hundred?) reverts (out of 800) was something like "my arm is falling off". Sounds like exhaustion of community patience to me. I also don't understand the part about collective punishment--is Norton using the royal we? I guess that would fit (maybe he's Emperor Norton). I did find a few still-unreverted moves just now and will try to nail any remaining ones. Phr (talk) 08:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am going to be away for most of tomorrow, so if anything happens, let me know before yall are doing anything (unless it is reverting the page moves, which I know there is still a few out there). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think indef might be a little harsh, but this is definitely meriting of a month or six - and that's iff he agrees never to make mass pagemoves again. If not, indef seems perfectly justified. I only say this because he seems to otherwise make some good contributions. FCYTravis 11:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Indef is indef, not permanent. I have no problem with unblocking him if he agrees to stop the page moves and to discuss them one by one. User:Zoe|(talk) 15:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- If you decide to do it Zoe, let me know please. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Indef is indef, not permanent. I have no problem with unblocking him if he agrees to stop the page moves and to discuss them one by one. User:Zoe|(talk) 15:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- All pagemoves later than "Alva Blanchard Evans" of 17 July have been reverted, i.e. all the ones from his latest spree. It looks like there are some earlier sprees that need to be checked. I'll do that tomorrow. I have a semi-automated script that speeds it up some. Phr (talk) 11:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why didn't Curpsbot get him? I thought it blocked everyone that did large numbers of pagemoves, regardless of where? --Sam Blanning(talk) 12:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Curpsbot hasn't been running for awhile now (Curps left). --Cyde↔Weys 13:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I support the block. The sheer number of pagemoves involved tells me there's just something unhinged with this guy, and he's not even bothering to attempt to achieve consensus. --Cyde↔Weys 13:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
From what I understand, this editor has been around for a fair while, and has generally been a positive – if sometimes prickly – contributor. Obviously his chosen method of handing this issue (posting a request at Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests with a six-hour deadline before he continued the moves) was a poor one, and an obvious violation of WP:DICK. I have to ask, is this editor involved in (or has he been involved in) any other major conflicts (RfCs, Arbitrations, etc.)?
Looking at his block log, he had some significant copyright issues earlier; I don't like to see that, but then the problem seems to have stopped after a block was issued. If there aren't any other issues with this editor, might I suggest trimming the block to a week so he has time to cool down, and allowing him to return on a very short leash? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I concur with TenOfAllTrades. Mr. Norton's goal appears to have been making sure the full-name articles existed, moreso than making sure each article was always listed under the full name. Of course, he should have re-moved the articles BACK to the consensus name, leaving a redirect at the full name (or, better yet, should have implemented the redirects directly instead of via pagemoves), and of course, he should have stopped immediately once warned. However, I think the principle of AGF still applies. His intent appears benign even if his methods were not. Powers 13:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think WP:AGF would have applied had he not been warned previously by multiple users to stop. Blatently persisting in such a manner created a LOT of extra work, and was extremely disruptive. I'm not sure so sure WP:AGF still applies once someone KNOWS that their actions are being judged unacceptable and continues anyway. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - - 14:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that his intent was benign, just he wasn't talking with anyone. <scratches head>. Tricky one to solve. Would someone care to discuss per email with him? Kim Bruning 14:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- His intent was benign in the sense of "benign dictator" at best. We have this WP:OWN document cautioning against "owning" articles, but this guy seems to think he owns the whole encyclopedia and the other Wikimedia projects as well (did you see that thing on Commons)? His approach about the page moves was "show me the written policy against it or I'm going to start again at 6 in the blinking morning", which is completely incompatible with the idea of a collaborative project. Fixing his moves burned almost a whole evening for at least 3 different editors. There is no way he should be allowed back without showing evidence of serious attitude adjustment. Phr (talk) 14:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's what I said... I think. :-) Some people need to be explained to, especially if they're inexperienced in collaborative projects. Well, we can hope anyway. Kim Bruning 16:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo
The user and the administrators in this artile must be checked. The stile, substance, ect. of the articel are total serbian propagander. The articel has more mitology history then the history of Kosovo. Any way there is a article History of Kosovo. The editor in this articel are serbs or serbians supporters and they don know noting about Kosovos geography, cultur, ekonomy ect. This articel is "bloced" from many user names with irelevant poits (For they is more importen the history befor 1000 (Not it!! there are no documents only from Serbian side about this time, albanians documenst was burned since 1912) then the history in our time). Before one month it was big Edit War, not for the argumets but the serbians users block every inicitiativ witch has not to do with serbians. They are more users here or they are working for the Serbian goverment and they have maked a net here in Wikipedia with many users accounts (see all articels about Serbia, there are for each thing twise one for the "hero" and one for "inesans" serbian). My big problem is thate the administrators witch are impëemented in this articel are supporting serbian users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.158.254.169 (talk • contribs)
User: Brian G. Crawford's edits to Catamorphism's RfA
I don't usually pay attention to internal drama and I don't know what happened with Erik the Rude being blocked, but Brian G. Crawford made this edit to Catamorphism's RfA purporting to withdraw Erik's nomination, and this one moving Erik's support vote to oppose. The "reasoning" in the "withdrawal" is full of personal attacks and general nonsense relating to Kelly Martin's list, which has nothing to do with anything as far as I can tell. Did someone just come unglued? Opabinia regalis 06:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Note Brian G. Crawford also just vandalized JJay's user and talk pages. At this point I wonder if an indefinite block would be appropriate. I'm giving him 24 hours. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 06:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would support an indefinite community ban. That level of disruption isn't something you can mediate. (ESkog)(Talk) 06:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed something longer is likely in order here.--Crossmr 07:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Part of the RfA addition could be taken as a physical threat. This user has been trolling long enough. --Firsfron of Ronchester 07:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why on earth would we block him indefinitely? He has a long history of productive edits. We know he currently has issues, but I see no reason why an indef-block without process would be justified. Just zis Guy you know? 08:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have blocked him indefinitely, feel free to shorten his block abakharev 08:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- After the second thought, I shorten my block to 2 months, lets give him a chance abakharev 09:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wow. I'd go back with your first thought. Anyone who writes something like that about another editor clearly should not be part of Wikipedia, in my opinion. Anyone who wishes to indefinitely block Mr. Crawford has my backing. — Knowledge Seeker দ 09:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- If I may, Alex, I really don't think it was an overreaction. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 09:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- After the second thought, I shorten my block to 2 months, lets give him a chance abakharev 09:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have blocked him indefinitely, feel free to shorten his block abakharev 08:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- On reflection, and knowing what Brian is currently going through, I suspect that he should remain blocked until his condition improves to the point where he is ready to return. He can stick {{unblock}} on his Talk page when he feels he's ready, and then maybe he could opt for a period of mentorship. His behaviour is currently outrageous, but I hope we can be understanding of someone formerly in good standing. Just zis Guy you know? 14:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Frankly, I like a lot of what Bryan has done in the past, but this is beyond the pale. Having 'issues' (emotional, psychological, physical, whatever) is no excuse. We're supposed to treat everyone the same, right? A two month block, at least, is entirely appropriate, to prevent any further hysterical tirades of abuse while Bryan sorts out his problems. Proto::type 09:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've extended the block to indefinite. I've been looking at the IP edit history and Brian and Erik overlap and in one place and time share the same IP. Brian and Erik are either the same person, or possibly share a computer. In any case, Brian is likely responsible for the death threat left on my talk page, as well as several completely outrageous edits. We should be submitting this guy to the authorities for criminal prosecution, not discussing how long we'll make him sit in the penalty box. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly how great are this guy's edits when he is "productive" that would justify allowing him to return ever after that blast at KM? Wikipedia is not therapy. I support a permanent ban. The thing is, he can always return to productive editing under a new ame, and if he gets his whatever under control, no one will ever know that it's him. But with this last screed on top of all the previous episodes, he has lost the right to return to the Brian G. Crawford account and whatever good karma he has accumulated. Thatcher131 12:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm always in favor of kicking someone off of wikipedia for death threats. I don't care if they were "l0l i wuz just k1dding" or not. Support indefblock. Syrthiss 12:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, a quick look through Brian's history and I'm surprised he's still here, whether or not he and Erik are the same person or were responsible for that threat. A lot of effort has been expended on him, but an unstable guy with "mental issues" who can't control his verbal diarrhea doesn't sound like the kind of person we should be actively trying to keep around. Opabinia regalis 12:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Both should stay blocked indefinitely. I don't know what the fuck is going on here but it's clearly not acceptable. Kelly Martin is right, this is beyond the level of thinking about the duration of the block, this is now about whether to contact the police. --Cyde↔Weys 13:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The fact that he has produced "productive edits" is a total red herring - if you went to your place of work and started calling people a "dyke" and making the threatening comments there, it's unlikely your workplace is going to say "oh but he gets all his paperwork in on time". While, clearly, we do not get paid here, surely the aim and aspiration is for to work together in as productive and as professional manner as possible?
The editor in question might have issues that he needs to work out - but other editors and administrators cannot be expected to be the virtual punchbag on which he does so. Looking at his edit history, I'm surprised to see (to put it mildly) that we are even discussing anything less than a total ban. --Charlesknight 13:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The comments were beyond the pale; this is an encyclopedia project and we expect somewhat higher levels of decorum than, say, a dark alley behind IRC. I support an indefinite ban—there's no excuse for subjecting other editors to this sort of vitriol. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support indef, Wikipedia is not therapy, and I concur with Syrthiss' succinct appraisal: "I'm always in favor of kicking someone off of wikipedia for death threats" too. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Indefinite, as in having no currently defined endpoint, is fine under the circumstances; I'd hope that when Brian is well again he might return but right now he is doing nobody any good, least of all himself. I am more disappointed than I can say. Just zis Guy you know? 14:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Death threats, however veiled or conditional, should not be tolerated here at all. An indefinite block is the least we should do. We should also contact his internet provider and the local authorities. -- Avenue 14:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. Death threats are unacceptable. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Death threats, however veiled or conditional, should not be tolerated here at all. An indefinite block is the least we should do. We should also contact his internet provider and the local authorities. -- Avenue 14:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support indef block as per nearly everybody, but could some univolved admin remove Kelly Martin's indef and impose one of their own? It'd look better, since Kelly was involved in the situation prior to the block. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Pplumley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
FYI. I blocked this user indefintely for threatening to sue us because we deleted his trash blatant advertising. Administrators, please reference [179]] for evidence.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 14:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- If anyone feels this is too harsh, feel free to act accordingly.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 14:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
multiple IPs at Talk:Highgate Vampire
- 213.122.105.226 (talk · contribs)
- 213.122.82.45 (talk · contribs)
- 213.122.53.86 (talk · contribs)
- 172.215.88.163 (talk · contribs)
- 82.47.185.39 (talk · contribs)
Harassment and personal attacks have occurred under the sub-heading "Comments by members of The Highgate Vampire Society." The offenders have all received warnings which they have ignored and indeed treated with contempt. These unregistered users are attacking someone who is not me, is not the topic under discussion, and someone who is not contributing to the discussion as they falsely claim. Furthermore, they are introducing insults and defamatory comments which have no bearing or relationship to the topic under discussion. They have effectively hijacked this discussion page to pursue a vendetta against someone mentioned in the original article who is an author and exorcist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vampire Research Society (talk • contribs)
- From what I can tell the primary editors of this article are also the authors of the references for the article:
- David Farrant claims edits by 172.215.88.163
- Vampire Research Society self identifies as supporting the views of the organization headed by Sean Manchester
- Catherine Fearnley claims edits by 213.122.114.239
- Barbara Green claims edits by 82.47.185.39
- are involved in this editing dispute. I propose this be deleted and protected from recreation for the following reasons:
- There seems to be no independent references
- The article is about an event involving living persons that are borderline notable
- The article can be easily recreated if still notable in 10-20 years.
- I would just list on AfD myself, I hesitate only because of my unfamiliarity with the subject thus I am requesting addditional views --Trödel 14:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I've been following and trying to "moderate" the discussion there for a month now (most of the time without logging in), and I'm tempted to say "yes, delete it" (in fact I've proposed it on the talk page), so as to get it off my hands, but I'm not sure whether it would be quite fair to those who have worked on the article. Also, you aren't apparaising the situation quite accurately. The editor who initially created the page was a folklore researcher, Jacqueline Simpson, who had based her text mostly on two texts by another folklore researcher, Bill Ellis. Neither is exactly mainstream or notable (while being members of various folklore societies, they don't seem to have academical degrees in these subjects), but they were not involved in the vampire hunts either. Next, User:Vampire Research Society appeared, still unregistered and using multiple IPs, and started a very aggressive polemic against Ellis and Simpson on the talk page, while at the same time vandalizing the article in accordance with his POV (that vampires exist and Manchester kills them). Eventually the article was semi-protected and his IPs were blocked. Afterwards he got his present account and started pointing out various perceived or real factual inaccuracies (which I found rather insignificant). These have been corrected when acknowledged by the other two editors of the article - Simpson and/or me. Since he was accusing Farrant of various faults and crimes, Farrant et al. appeared and started making counter-accusations. That's about it. I'm not sure what the conclusions should be. I am sure that the article/talk page is in constant need of admin attention because of the fact that the main "characters" of the story are extremely active online. --Anonymous44 19:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Concerns with User: Qho [180]
I would respectfully request that an administrator help Qho understand that a number of his contributions to user discussion pages have been inappropriate. I attempted politely to warn him but was rebuffed, with behavior typifying his manner of postings. You may review his user contributions in the past several days to notice what he has been doing on several user pages [181]. Thanks. Ptmccain 18:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'll keep an eye on him. It looks like someone blocked him for a day. If he doesn't shape up in awhile, I'll step in. --Improv 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you. Ptmccain 19:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I have decided to give him 24-hour block to cool off and given a notice. Since it's my first non-trivial block (i.e. not directly vandalism-related), I'd be happy with a review of my action. Misza13 T C 19:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Last will and testament edits may be spam?
On my watch list, I spotted this edit. A little hesitant, I checked out the site. I found it to be legimate enough and think such an article would be a good addition. Then, I noticed the editor who placed them; Livingtrust (talk · contribs). This name can be directly linked to the webpage added, Living Trust Network. I am now a bit worried about whether this should be considered spam or not. As you can see by the user contributions, they have added all instances of wills from the Living Network page to their appropriate Wikipedia articles. Also, at the Famous Wills section, they have a line that says "For more information, please see Wikipedia's biography of XXX." Can someone more knowledgable make comment on my concerns. Cheers! -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 19:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see any issues with their links to wikipedia -- tons of sites do for more information. I don't think that wills are generally appropriate to link to on Wikipedia though, especially outside of the external links section. My intuition is that it should be removed. --Improv 19:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- As the CEO of the Living Trust Network, I would like to respond to the above comments. First, we do not want to engage in any activities that might be considered unethical or wrong in any way. So, if we have added links to our website that should not have been added, then we will certainly take them down. We were in the process of adding links to Wikipedia's biographies of famous people whose wills are featured on our site when I discovered a link to a Last Will and Testament on another external site. That gave us the idea. Then we added a few links to wills on our site and discovered that we shouldn't be adding links except in the external links section. We then removed the links and put them into the external links area. If that, too, is not appropriate, then we will certainly remove them. However, it seems to me that having access to a person's will is a good thing and in keeping with the focus of the biography of famous people.
If you view the page on our site in which the Last Will and Testament is located, you will see that there is no advertising or other offensive material. In fact, you won't find anything on our site that is offensive or in bad taste. We tend to error on the side of being good neighbors - and we will always remain that way.
So, please, someone advise us as to how we should proceed regarding the links to the Last Wills and Testaments of famous people on our site.
Regards, Michael Pancheri, CEO, Living Trust Network, LLC
- I wasn't meaning to indicate that you should feel bad or that it was impropriety to add the links, merely that in my opinion, I don't think they make the articles better because they don't fit with the nature of encyclopedia articles. However, despite feeling as I do, I recommend you want until there's been adequate discussion on this page to reach some sort of consensus on the topic. If you would hold off on adding more links until then, and occasionally check back here in case more discussion happens, that would be great. Don't feel at all bad about adding the link at this point -- we're still working on coming to a set of intuitions on this topic (there have been a few other somewhat similar cases, one involving a scientific journal and another involving Cliffsnote, this month). --Improv 20:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Extreme threats by 205.188.116.133
"this is my FINAL warning, quit reverting my edits or I'll blow up your house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" [182]
Could someone take appropriate action? Jakew 19:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- AOL IP. Nothing we can do, as usual. Not enough vandalism to merit a anon-only block for a while. I'd suggest sending a email to AOL's abuse report monkie---people. --Avillia (Avillia me!) 19:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Emailed AOL. Please expect a reply next year :-( Iolakana|T 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I just indefinitely blocked Pat8722 (talk · contribs). I feel that his continual confrontation, insults, and misinterpretation of Wikipedia policy is quite disruptive. I briefly blocked this editor before. If you feel this block is in error, please let me know. Background information is available at User talk:Pat8722 and especially at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pat8722. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
NYScholar
NYScholar (talk · contribs) is being difficult on Talk:Esophageal cancer, but my message here mainly concerns subtle but definite rudeness on his talkpage. What am I supposed to do with this? Could someone talk to him? JFW | T@lk 20:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Userbox {{User WP Anime}} needs to be restored as it was arbitrarily deleted and salted without a TfD notice or a notice to WikiProject Anime and manga. --TheFarix (Talk) 20:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- As I noted when I gave notice that I deleted it, I'll give you the contents so you can move it to userspace if you like. --Improv 20:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- That isn't a valid deletion criteria. I would appreciate it if you stopped encouraging a setup that results in the decentralisation of copyvios.Geni 20:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any official policy to userfy all userboxes. I've seen a proposal for it, but certainly not any confirmation. It was your duty to ensure the deletion did not have any adverse effect or go against consensus, which you clearly did not even attempt. WikiProject userboxes have been, asfar as I know, sanctionned by the userbox-related guidelines. Circeus 20:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Err, the German solution calls for the box to be userfied before deletion (for fairly obvious reasons), and WikiProject userboxes are among the few types that most people would consider as actually being beneficial to the encyclopedia. Why exactly did you delete this again? Kirill Lokshin 20:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, you're right in that this is a project userbox -- I was too hasty in this deletion, and have undone it. --Improv 20:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you.
- Out of curiosity, I recall that the German solution at one point included a provision to move WikiProject boxes to project-space (e.g. Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Userbox). Has this been taken out? Kirill Lokshin 20:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, you're right in that this is a project userbox -- I was too hasty in this deletion, and have undone it. --Improv 20:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- Err, the German solution calls for the box to be userfied before deletion (for fairly obvious reasons), and WikiProject userboxes are among the few types that most people would consider as actually being beneficial to the encyclopedia. Why exactly did you delete this again? Kirill Lokshin 20:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Help keeping an eye on an abusive user
I recently ran across a number of personal attacks, via talk pages, hidden comments in articles, and edit summaries, by Machchunk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (take a quick look at his recent contributions for an idea of the latter) and gave him a two day block for violating WP:NPA. Within two hours of the end of his block, he was back at it, albeit at a slower pace. I don't like to be the only admin passing out warnings (and when necessary, blocks) to a user, so if a couple others wouldn't mind keeping an eye on his contributions for the next few days to see if he shapes up, that'd be helpful. Thanks. Tijuana Brass¡Épa! 20:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)