→Richard Searby: nothing in NLT demands an instant unblock |
→User North8000 disruptive talk page editing at talk:Homophobia: Lets not use Nazi or Hitler here |
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********Here's what I say...you're a bully. And I think that you should of been blocked for calling me a Nazi (because of my German blood) and for edit warring to keep it in. [[User:Caden|<b><font color="black">'''Caden'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:Caden|<font color="red"><sup><small>'''cool'''</small></sup></font>]] 12:31, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
********Here's what I say...you're a bully. And I think that you should of been blocked for calling me a Nazi (because of my German blood) and for edit warring to keep it in. [[User:Caden|<b><font color="black">'''Caden'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:Caden|<font color="red"><sup><small>'''cool'''</small></sup></font>]] 12:31, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::How could you have been attacked for having german blood when you have not previously disclosed such a thing. He was making a [[WP:POINTY]] point, but it was meant as a point, not as an actual accusation. I think that is quite clear. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 12:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
:::::::::How could you have been attacked for having german blood when you have not previously disclosed such a thing. He was making a [[WP:POINTY]] point, but it was meant as a point, not as an actual accusation. I think that is quite clear. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 12:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Caden, it wasn't a personal attack in context. Seb az86556, you should know by now that [[WP:GODWIN|invoking Nazi or Hitler]] in a discussion is never going to make anyone see your point of view. Ever. It has only ever inflamed a discussion and offended the person you are trying to convince. Let's just move on without any more Nazi or Hitler references, ok?--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 13:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment'''*. I have just removed some of the worst off-topic name-calling. I realise this topic is emotional but there's no need to indulge in a race to the bottom, behaviour-wise. Please keep the discussion on-topic. Ban, or no ban? [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 11:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Comment'''*. I have just removed some of the worst off-topic name-calling. I realise this topic is emotional but there's no need to indulge in a race to the bottom, behaviour-wise. Please keep the discussion on-topic. Ban, or no ban? [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 11:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
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**Reverted. People who support personal attacks need to be called out on it; that is very much on topic, since it <u>is</u> the topic. [[User:Seb az86556|Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556]] <sup>[[User_talk:Seb_az86556|> haneʼ]]</sup> 11:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
**Reverted. People who support personal attacks need to be called out on it; that is very much on topic, since it <u>is</u> the topic. [[User:Seb az86556|Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556]] <sup>[[User_talk:Seb_az86556|> haneʼ]]</sup> 11:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:23, 17 November 2012
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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User check : RobertRosen
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It all started with our differing views on the reliability of a source here. I resorted to WP:RSN to seek expert advice. User:TheBlueCanoe intervened and opined that the source concerned is reliable, wikipedia per se. On reflection, I found that clauses such as WP:SPS too would apply if at all RobertRosen's views were taken seriously and I stated the same to him. RobertRosen kept spouting Wikipedia lingo such as WP:AGF and WP:RS and refused to give in to any of my points. He further went on defacing the article with edits such as this. That worried me and made me look up RobertRosen's history to check his intentions. I found instances such as this, thisand this which smeared my assumed good faith on RobertRosen. Sneakily removing sourced material with misleading edit summaries, removing sourced content falsely stating that it is unsupported : his edit history revealed such tendencies. Further check on Aruna Roy's history brought to light his other edits([1] 2 & 3) which have removed relevant and sourced material such as Aruna's featuring in Time's list of influential people. Maybe a pattern would emerge if all his contributions are scrutinized. The user keeps asking me to take it to his talk page, but I doubt if that would be worth my time and energy. Need administrator intervention. morelMWilliam 09:28, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
WP:SPI please. GiantSnowman 09:38, 8 November 2012 (UTC)- I believe that Wikipedia should be a reliable encyclopedia sourced from authentic and non-POV sources in so far as BLP articles are concerned. So yes, I do "tend" to remove information on BLPs till they are properly sourced and re-written by editors interested in the subject. I am primarily a Wikipedia reader/user and not a Wikipedia editor. The present dispute is about personal biographical information about a living person Aruna Roy. I had repeatedly asked the complainant to take it to the ARTICLE TALK PAGE since there were only 2 editors involved. I also advised him that WP:3 is the place to go if he wanted a third opinion. Instead he has brought a content dispute to WP:ANI within the space of a few hours and without any independent editors being allowed to participate. For instance, User:TheBlueCanoe gave his opinion before I had even properly stated my case. If insisting on strict adherence to WP policies is a crime, then please dub me a SP and throw me out of WP. RobertRosen (talk) 09:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- I can't think of any socks. I had to take it to ANI as the problem is not with this one instance, but many, as supported by the disturbing instances cited in my first post. User:TheBlueCanoe did respond after RobertRosen's reply, which still wasn't a favourable one for RobertRosen. This user has a flawed understanding of WP policies and his editing should be monitored closely to prevent him from defacing further articles. morelMWilliam 10:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. This is another instance that makes me question his sound knowledge of WP policies. Controversies should be removed from a BLP article only when they form the main content, if I am not wrong. Or am I wrong? morelMWilliam 10:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think you (MorelMWilliam) are. You're edit warring, not using the article talk page, not responding to a good faith notice place on your talk page, and running off to noticeboards. You're escalating the situation very quickly, and posting to ANI concurrently with RSN. Digging through an editor's history to find "evidence" of past misdeeds isn't really helpful, especially when at some of the links you provide don't really hold up. For example, RobertRosen made some edits to Arindam Chaudhuri with reasonable edit summaries, which were reverted by another editor; RR did not edit war (a third editor repeated some of the trimming). This discussion should be taken to the talk page. Going to RSN to get additional viewpoints is fine, but it's more helpful to give it time to allow other editors to comment rather than going back and forth with another editor. I don't see any need for admin action here. Nobody Ent 11:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- @MorelMWilliam, Just FYI, what I removed on Salman Khurshid was clearly within the scope of WP:LBL. Let me also say that while I respect CONTRIBUTORS like you who add information ("WP is not a paper encyclopedia"), WP also needs those few remaining EDITORS like me who clean up afterwards. So chill and have mutual respect. RobertRosen (talk) 11:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC).
- @Nobody WP:BLPREMOVE and WP:AVOIDVICTIM support the addition of well sourced contentious material against Salman Khurshid as they don't garner undue weight in his article. As regards the Arindham Chaudhuri link, RobertRosen deleted the entire content rather than changing it to the way supported by the source. I chose not to take things on my own hands and took it to notice boards for outsider opinion. Besides, all your concerns are that I took it to ANI and not go by talk page disputes, then a 3rd party intervention and then an another step before I get here. Look at the amount of junk that is there on WP:RSN for addition of simple and non contentious facts in an article! Most of his edits, other than today's, have something to do with people/ organisations involved in India Against Corruption movement, and I see a pattern there. His edits are usually content removal, a lot of them of a not so sound judgement. When contacted, he comes forward with wikipedia rules that don't apply. A rollback of some sort for his edits is what I see necessary, and that needs an administrator! morelMWilliam 12:10, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think you (MorelMWilliam) are. You're edit warring, not using the article talk page, not responding to a good faith notice place on your talk page, and running off to noticeboards. You're escalating the situation very quickly, and posting to ANI concurrently with RSN. Digging through an editor's history to find "evidence" of past misdeeds isn't really helpful, especially when at some of the links you provide don't really hold up. For example, RobertRosen made some edits to Arindam Chaudhuri with reasonable edit summaries, which were reverted by another editor; RR did not edit war (a third editor repeated some of the trimming). This discussion should be taken to the talk page. Going to RSN to get additional viewpoints is fine, but it's more helpful to give it time to allow other editors to comment rather than going back and forth with another editor. I don't see any need for admin action here. Nobody Ent 11:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
The Roy bio cited is SPS originally from [2] and the rmaf site is simply copying material as a copyright violation of the SPS material <g>. Pretty clear and convincing copyvio in fact, thus unuable for two separate and distinct absolute rules of Wikipedia. I did not check other issues, but that particular one should be laid to rest. Collect (talk) 12:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- All American Speakers website which has her 'bio' cited lists no author. This website sources content that are on public domain. Such as Jesse Jackson's bio copied from here. So it is not an SPS, but rather RMAF's content mirrored by All American Speakers. morelMWilliam 12:44, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- In the ongoing WP:RSN discussion, RobertRosen has veered off to conspiracy theorists' territories. His key points include
- Ramon Magsaysay Award Foundation is biased to further American Interests as it is administered by Rockefeller Foundation and Ford Foundation.
- Vigil Online, a non notable think tank, authors books that are more reliable than most of the sources here that meet WP:RS.
- He is a self-styled 'door-keeper' who claims that it is because of him "that text from books from "their" side NOR "your" side get through WP's policies and into BLPs".
- He thinks because he knows many books that go "pornographic" when talking about personal details of Aruna Roy, Ramon Magsaysay Award Foundation's biography by an experienced filipino journalist Lorna Kalaw-Tirol is unreliable.
- He asks editors to read his Indian conspiracy theorists like Arundhati Roy sending me links to her criticism pieces such as this to become more 'informed'.
- He claims that the personal details of Aruna Roy supported by RMAF is contentious citing a few blogs.
It is now very clear that he subscribes to such ideologues and defaces articles with his wikilawyering. morelMWilliam 05:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- MorelMWilliam, if you describe another editor as 'defacing' an article one more time, when what you mean is 'editing it in a way I don't like' I will block you under WP:NPA. This appears to be nothing but a content dispute, and I recommend it be closed before such an outcome occurs. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Elen of the roads, did you read my entire post? It is not a content dispute; this user uses his personal research and unreliable/ shifty sources to support his wikilawyering. This RobertRosen has taken over Aruna Roy and many other wiki articles related to India Against Corruption and removes well referenced content citing their differences with his own knowledge supported by unreliable sources. Here are a few instances.
- He believes(1 & 2) that Aruna Roy and Sanjit Roy were never married. However, it is supported by multiple sources such as this and this.
- I found that a different version of the text under dispute was added by an administrator Ekabhishek in 2009. The same was removed by RobertRosen in 2011 stating that version to be copied in entirety from the source.
I am tired citing instances showing his bad judgement and I wonder if the above is not defacing, then what is! morelMWilliam 19:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Firstly, I don't use my personal knowledge, my personal research or dubious sources to add (or delete) material to WP article space. That would be WP:NOR. My Indian BLP niche edits are usually of the "delete immediately without waiting for discussion" variety and strictly in terms of WP:BLP, WP:V etc.
- Secondly, in 22.02.2011 I removed (as a COPYVIO) article text [3] from Aruna Roy which stated that she and Sanjit/Bunker Roy "are not separated". Today User:MWilliam tried to rope the editor/admin "Ekabhishek" whose text I deleted into this dispute to support him at WP:ANI. However, 1 of MorelWilliam's own 2 new sources which he relies on to show they were married ALSO says that they "are separated".
- Thirdly, I would ask User:MWilliams to understand Sanjit Roy's carefully nuanced statement (in the 2nd reference he provided) "In India I'm always Aruna Roy's husband."
- Fourthly MWilliams is not even allowed to post such an ANI because he did not discuss this incident on my talk page and considering that I had immediately posted a courtesy message on his talk page asking him to do so after I (once) reverted his edits for purely technical reasons.
- This is a content dispute and nothing else. The complainant is insistent on inserting a poorly sourced, copyrightvio'ed and controversial text into a BLP and is stalking me to achieve it. Can somebody please close this discussion, and/or get User:MWilliams to stop stalking me, repeatedly examining and maligning my editing style (and despite being advised not to do so by 4 neutral admins), calling for a WP:CU for me without any basis, and dismissively bypassing each and every conventional WP dispute resolution process so as to malign me. RobertRosen (talk) 10:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Firstly(sic), this is NOT A CONTENT DISPUTE.
- Secondly(sic), this IS A COMPLAINT AGAINST YOUR EDITING STYLE and nothing else.
- Thirdly(sic), I am NOT STALKING YOU. I am just not that into you, okay? By the way, did you happen to land on Ekabhishek's talk page just like that?
- Sanjit Roy's statement implies that he is relatively unknown in India, other than for the fact that he is Aruna's husband. What did you understand? You have now come to believe that they are separated from your earlier stand that they were never married.
- You should seek advice from WP:RSN before you remove a source from a page. If it is you who regards a source dubious, then it is your personal knowledge / personal research. I didn't come up lived in sin because of their brehman - low life unconventional mixed marriage. Do you have a reliable source for that? morelMWilliam 13:38, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- On reviewing the editing at Aruna Roy for the past 2 years, I find that an anon IP band 117.xxx.xxx.xxx geo-resolving to BSNL in Rajasthan State in India, has been persistently trying to include personal biographic details of her to the article. I am not the only editor to have reverted this text/anon User:Materialscientist(an Admin) also did so on 22.Feb.2012 and so did User:Jargon777 on 25.May.2012. Curiously MWilliams is going to extraordinary lengths to reinsert much of the same (now seemingly self published) material which was removed by Materialscientist and by me (twice) as say on 10.Oct.2011 much after the text was added by MWilliams on 30.Aug.2011. So its not the first time this very text was added by Mwilliams and removed by me about 2 months later. So the sequence goes like this --> On 22.feb.2011 I remove the disputed text which I noticed after removing a patently COPYVIO image from flickr (which image also repeatedly gets reinserted back on this page), MWilliams adds the text back on 30.Aug.2011. I remove it 2 months later, then the anon IP replaces it and MaterialScientist removes it immediately. Then Mwilliams puts it back and I revert it immediately. It may also be relevant that Aruna Roy's organisation the "MKSS" is based in Rajasthan and she was also involved with a "Barefoot University" there. RobertRosen (talk) 17:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- What's happening is a slow-moving edit-war, and just because it's 2 months apart doesn't make it any better, or any less of an edit-war...WP:BRD still applies. However, if you're suggesting some form of "undercover" or covert operations going on, then you'd better take a very quick re-read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL and realign your manner of thinking as the hints, suggestions, and almost accusations above are inappropriate (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- @Bwilkins, I respectfully beg to state it differently. Somebody is repeatedly attempting to violate WP:NPOV on this WP:BLP by inserting a specific set of controversial text including concerning the subject's marital status and parentage. The article subject herself is a controversial personality much in the news. Several independent and neutral editors (including an Indian WP:Admin and a WP:Rollbacker from Toronto) have stopped him/them on technical grounds. None of us (incl. me) have problems with the content per se, we had always removed/rollbacked it for technical reasons. None of us rollbackers (as far as I can make out) have added any significant material to the article. Because of the glacial pace (and the anon IP), we could not see the pattern earlier.
- WP:DR I have not contacted those other 2 editors or involved them. I had put a message on MWilliam's talk page asking him to discuss it, either on my talk page or the article talk page but he unilaterally chose to bring it to WP:RSN without any discussion saying "I would rather spend time adding valuable content on the article space than chit chat with you upholding niceties such as politeness, good faith and courtesy." and also "This discussion would be moved to the article's talk page once resolved. Let us get to WP:DR when there is a dispute. Like when both of us believe that earth is flat". He then came to WP:ANI to escape from the ongoing WP:RSN discussion which later went against him. RobertRosen (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I've also just discovered that "MWilliams" has also complained about this/me to the BLP notice board [4] and neglected to inform me or place the "blp-dispute" tag on the article's talk page. RobertRosen (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oooh, I also find that MWilliams has moved all his controversial talk page content to archives, and in the period when this slow "edit-warring" first began ie. Feb-July 2011 he had been indulging in massive copyvios and was "blocked" for disruptive editing. It also seems from his archive he had another user name, ... which I've now discovered resolves to former SockPuppeteer "Manorathan" [5]. [6]. RobertRosen (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- In view of the above. I would like to try and resolve this "one-on-one" with User:MonelMWilliams, and see if he promises to reform and be a "good boy" at Wikipedia in future. I'm not a vindictive person and believe there is good in everyone and ultimately we are working towards the same goal. RobertRosen (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Holy crap ... and now you'll only resolve it if he "promises to reform and be a 'good boy'"? Can you be any more condescending? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- In a perfect world, suggesting that another editor "promise to be a good boy" would result in a quick and lengthy block. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- To another "editor" yes. Not when addressed to an incorrigible sock who has regularly continued to disruptively edit and abuse several editors besides me after being unblocked. RobertRosen (talk) 11:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- In view of the above. I would like to try and resolve this "one-on-one" with User:MonelMWilliams, and see if he promises to reform and be a "good boy" at Wikipedia in future. I'm not a vindictive person and believe there is good in everyone and ultimately we are working towards the same goal. RobertRosen (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oooh, I also find that MWilliams has moved all his controversial talk page content to archives, and in the period when this slow "edit-warring" first began ie. Feb-July 2011 he had been indulging in massive copyvios and was "blocked" for disruptive editing. It also seems from his archive he had another user name, ... which I've now discovered resolves to former SockPuppeteer "Manorathan" [5]. [6]. RobertRosen (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I've also just discovered that "MWilliams" has also complained about this/me to the BLP notice board [4] and neglected to inform me or place the "blp-dispute" tag on the article's talk page. RobertRosen (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- @RobertRosen : You are delusional and are distorting the facts.
- The WP:RSN didn't turn against me. It was in fact the opposite.
- User MaterialScientist removed ([7]2) unsourced content.
- User Jargon777 removed unsourced text in unrecognised script.
- The anon IP DID NOT replace my text. It was unsourced and possibly of original research.
- How do their edits build the case in your favour? You have forgotten that the sourced text that you removed (first instannce) was added by an administrator Ekabhishek. So the correct sequence : an administrator adds well sourced text, you remove it with a dubious accusation stating that it violates some copyright, I reword it and add it back with the supporting source, then you remove it again which I discover only a year later and then I add it back only to be blanked again by you, which lead us here.
- You claim the well referenced text removed by you to be controversial. Which notable source supports you other than your personal research? You claim the subject to be controversial. What do you mean by that? Where are the sources to support that?
- Don't try to link yourself with those independent and neutral editors. Their technical grounds were different; while yours is a plain abuse of WP:BLP to remove contents without discussion the text that one personally finds poorly sourced, theirs was removing unsourced content. So, stop using us!
And dearie, stop showering this much love on me. You would make my doggie jealous. Stay content with my blown kiss. morelMWilliam 04:11, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is very clear that you are not prepared to reform despite being given a 2nd chance. You have continued to indulge in uncivil disruptive editing such as here [8] with former admin "BoingSaidZebedee, and [9] where you abused another editor in the following terms "You don't get it. What I have been asking from the beginning is to add their claims to be Kshatriyas, for which there are many sources. You should perhaps tune up your ability to comprehend. Go back and read my posts on the article talk page". I'm very sorry to say that you were found to be a socker and you continued to behave in a disruptive fashion thereafter with editors other than me. In the past 5 months the only 2 article pages you have worked on were those on which I had removed CONTROVERSIAL POORLY SOURCED AND COPYRIGHTED BLP material. So you are stalking me. Insofar as WP:REFORMED is concerned, charges of further disruptive behaviour can be leveled on the Admin Notice Boards. RobertRosen (talk) 05:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, they are all in my archives for everyone to see. But where is your homework on what this discussion is about, especially the points raised in my previous post? I don't see anything further about Aruna's marriage or her alleged marriage as you like calling it. morelMWilliam 06:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Now why would one reword a threat? morelMWilliam 08:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, calling another editor "delusional" should be an immediate NPA block. That's simply uncalled for. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 21:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Did you read the rest of the post to see why I call him delusional? Distorting the facts and spinning his own version abusing the tendency here to not verify anything, what else is that? Here is an ADMINISTRATOR that finds hidden personal motives behind his disruptive editing. And he uses the word defacing when referring to RobertRosen's contributions. morelMWilliam 02:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter why you called him that, it's a flat insult. Trying to excuse it doesn't change the problem. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 23:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- This is continuous harassment and trolling. THAT was what Ekabhishek said BEFORE I commented on his talk page, THIS is what he says now [10] RobertRosen (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I repeat, this is not harassment/ trolling. This is a genuine concern on your editing style and the motives(such as (this) that are driving you to commit these acts. Are you still over me? Shall we get back to what this discussion is about, because that is not helping you in any way. For starters, what do you think now about Aruna Roy's marriage? And about Ekabhishek's diplomatic statement, he didn't reclaim his remark on your acts or personal motives, did he?morelMWilliam 05:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Both of you, drop it for now. Arguing back and forth is helping neither of your cases. Either an admin will weigh in or (more likely) this will fall into the archives because no one feels it ecessary to intercede. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 23:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry if I'm inappropriately interjecting here, but my thoughts are these: this discussion has been plagued by incivility and personal attacks from both persons. Based on the dialogue, I think this issue is just a personal conflict that arose from a content dispute. Each of you is doing your damnedest to demonize the other and point out their flaws while refusing to acknowledge your own. What you need to do (and what you should have done in the first place) is actively try to solve this. First, discuss this in talk. You need some kind of common ground. Forget about what's been said. If you can't be nice, at least be civil, and present your argument based on policy. If your argument is questioned, explain it, and try to understand the other person's rationale, even if you don't agree with it. Ultimately, you're trying to find consensus of some kind. It might not work out, and that's when you go to WP:DRN. There, you repeat the process with the help of more editors. If no consensus can be reached among this larger constituency, then you can come to AN/I for administrator input. You've jumped the gun here and avoided communication in favor of a quick resolution based on the assumption that you're right and the other guy's wrong. For any kind of solution to be reached, you're going to have to go through the proper steps and make a concerted effort to resolve this on your own. I hope you can make that happen. Coppaar (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Both of you, drop it for now. Arguing back and forth is helping neither of your cases. Either an admin will weigh in or (more likely) this will fall into the archives because no one feels it ecessary to intercede. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 23:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Did you read the rest of the post to see why I call him delusional? Distorting the facts and spinning his own version abusing the tendency here to not verify anything, what else is that? Here is an ADMINISTRATOR that finds hidden personal motives behind his disruptive editing. And he uses the word defacing when referring to RobertRosen's contributions. morelMWilliam 02:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I started a discussion in the Article's talk page. Hope the discussion proceeds in a mature way. morelMWilliam 05:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- There is no way that I am NOW going to discuss Aruna Roy with this user. From the very beginning I asked him to discuss it on the article's talk page and go through all the standard hierarchial DRs if necessary. Now after his vexatious litigation and considering he forced me to winkle out his past track record as a disruptive sock it is impossible for me to discuss anything with him in GOOD FAITH. Unlike MWilliams I have no "ownership" issues with any page. It makes no difference to me if vandals screw the encyclopedia because all the good editors are sleeping. I am already an Admin (and a super-Admin) at far superior information resources which only have properly verified editors (we don't let in riff-raff) and I don't give a f*** what happens here anymore. RobertRosen (talk) 10:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
English language proficiency of User:B767-500
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:B767-500 has a long history of warnings about their english language proficiency. I am not sure if there are any other serious issues with this editor. is there a way to politely let them know that contributing to WP requires a language proficiency that matches the tasks selected? i have edited foreign language WP's, but usually adding images, or links, but no sentences, etc.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Having had a look over their talk page, it's apparent that their language proficiency is well below the par that we expect for editing of any level on this 'pedia. I'm sure they're trying hard to contribute but unfortunately their competence is seriously lacking and it's been a bone of contention over the last several years. Blackmane (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't forget to notify the other party when you post at ANI. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Looking at messages to this user, it appears that they have been sufficiently informed about their limited proficiency in English but have done nothing to address or even acknowledge the need. A sample of their edits shows a lack of English skill that significantly diminishes any possible benefit to their contributions. --Kinu t/c 00:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- This indicates that the problem isn't just their ability to speak English (they dumped a load of printers pie onto the talkpage). Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- I am sorry that was joke after too many of beverages and I already removing the junk text. --B767-500 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Do we have any clue, and I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, where the editor is from/what their native language is? I agree, this is an issue; directing them to the appropriate language encyclopedia, I think, is going to be the best solution. Go Phightins! 03:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- On their talk page, it was suggested that Thai may have been their first language but a reply implied that Thai may be a second language. At at guess, their first language could be south asian or I could be completely way off. Blackmane (talk) 10:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be possible for a CU to find the underlying IP used, then Geolocate the IP, find out the location/language - and then we know where to begin. GiantSnowman 10:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I already living in U.S. (California) due to asylum. --B767-500 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Where are you originally from? Go Phightins! 03:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- GS, horrible idea, we don't use CU to reveal private information about editors (even if done in good faith). NE Ent 18:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Holy shit. I had to reread that several times just to make sure he actually suggested that. Unbelievable. Joefromrandb (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I already living in U.S. (California) due to asylum. --B767-500 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be possible for a CU to find the underlying IP used, then Geolocate the IP, find out the location/language - and then we know where to begin. GiantSnowman 10:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- On their talk page, it was suggested that Thai may have been their first language but a reply implied that Thai may be a second language. At at guess, their first language could be south asian or I could be completely way off. Blackmane (talk) 10:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- This indicates that the problem isn't just their ability to speak English (they dumped a load of printers pie onto the talkpage). Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
The political situation, or anything else other than his issue of language ability, is moot. No matter how badly he may want to (and that is still in question) contribute to the encyclopedia, his lack of skills with English keep him from doing that. No matter how much a man may want to work at Deja Vu, he lacks the basic qualification. The same goes for this editor. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but at this point I would recommend a WP:COMPETENCE block. Go Phightins! 23:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
POV-pushing, IP-hopping editor
In the past few days I have encountered an editor whose clear agenda is to remove all references to "China" or the "Republic of China" in Taiwan-related matters, often against discussion consensus or inappropriately changing the title field of a template away from its actual name. See this non-exhaustive list of diffs: [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21] Where appropriate, range-blocks should be enacted to prevent playing of "pop the weasel". Edit: After a 3-day lull, (s)he's back! GotR Talk 20:19, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- It might be better to request page protection. This is larger than a single IP range, so I don't think a range block is going to work and will have too much collateral damage. I agree that it looks like clear POV editing, however. WP:RFPP can protect pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, if this activist moves on to even more pages, the better option would be to seal the ranges rather than mass-protect pages and prevent all non-confirmed from editing those pages. GotR Talk 16:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- The Republic of China is commonly known as Taiwan. Changing ROC to Taiwan makes it less confusing because readers not familiar with Taiwan strait issues might confuse ROC with the People`s Republic of China. In wikipedia ,the page "Republic of China" has been redirected to "Taiwan". Most pages about the state use the name "Taiwan". In my opinion,the editor`s changes are reasonable as it maintains consistency of the name and reduces confusion. 111.82.204.221 (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the OP here is one who often creates problems for the Taiwan page, and others using that name, with extremely cryptic Edit summaries and a clear agenda to maintain the word China in connection to Taiwan. It's part of a very old political (and initially military) conflict from the first half of last century. This goes against the result of a massive effort at the page some months ago where consensus was reached to rename the article from Republic of China to Taiwan. The IP hopping editor is not really being helpful, but I see his behaviour as at least partly a reaction to out OP's obsession with pushing the POV of the article in the opposite direction, against consensus. Actions to bring our IP hopping editor properly on board, with registration, etc., would be good, but our OP needs to to be watched too. His POV goals to continually fight the consensus recently achieved, and reintroduce confusion over the use of the name China, are not good for Wikipedia. The goals of the IP hopping editor are probably more in line with consensus. HiLo48 (talk) 15:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Without touching on the far more numerous problems of HiLo, I have let this particular IP editor some leeway when his (her) changes are not completely unreasonable. For instance, I have chosen to ignore the most recent edits to Keelung River, which I have chosen to ignore, and Template:List of Asian capitals by region, the latter which is more questionable. I am not, as HiLo falsely accuses, a robot that automatically inserts "China" in every usage of ROC/Taiwan; however, this IP editor is the robot that performs the inverse function. I must remind all that the decision reached in March pertained only to the title of the main article, and specifically instructed those in HiLo's faction not to immediately alter other content in favour of their unequivocally nevertheless hidden political motives: to eradicate every last modern reference to the first non-dynastic Chinese state. GotR Talk 16:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, your colours are now fully on display. That you see everyone with an interest in the subject as being part of a "faction" is your main problem. You may be. I have no idea. And I wouldn't accuse. I'll just stick to describing your actions. I just want a better encyclopaedia. Oh, and I DID NOT accuse you of being "a robot that automatically inserts "China" in every usage of ROC/Taiwan". Thank you for proving my point about your style and attitude. GoTR, the IP hopping editor may be a small problem, but you're probably the cause. HiLo48 (talk) 20:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of the intent of those who wish to (essentially) eradicate usage of "ROC" and whether they support independence, they agree to such eradication; this makes you as much part of a faction as I am. "the OP here is...a clear agenda to maintain the word China in connection to Taiwan."—not explicit, but falls not at all short of accusing me of being a robot. Remember that I have already provided (i.e. debunked) a few counterexamples, A → not B, to your claim of A → B. Your attempts at diverting the focus away from the IP editor have shown to be a ridicule-and-parade-HiLo48-in-a-dunce-hat fun fest. GotR Talk 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- The IPs edits are making changes from Republic of China to Taiwan. The article of the place-in-question is at Taiwan. I don't understand the problem here. GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the closing remarks of the requested move of Republic of China to Taiwan that stated the move closure decision was only made with respect to that page's title, see remarks made by Jiang in Talk:Taiwan#"Mainland". In particular, many of the changes {{ROC-TW}} or {{ROC}} to {{TWN}}, where all three templates link to the current title. GotR Talk 05:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- To emphasise what GotR said (noting that I neither participated in the requested move nor AFAIK have I ever left a particularly comment on this issue), a consensus for one article does not normally equate to a consensus for another article. Only with a wider RFC where what other articles will be called is specifically considered (likely one advertised in all relevent articles) would this generally be the case. And in this particular case, the closing admins explicitly noted the move did not include any other articles Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20. Note that this does not mean that the other articles can't be moved, simply that since it's likely to be disputed and any move should be discussed first and given we rarely require interarticle consistency, what the 'main' article is called is a fairly weak argument. Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Am I mistaken in the belief that AN/I is not for content disputes? I don't think there's any clear evidence that the IP user is being intentionally disruptive, and the diffs don't show obvious POV-pushing to me. They all happened in a relatively short span of time, and apparently no attempt was made to communicate with the user, beyond this diff, as a notification that there was an AN/I discussion taking place. Frankly, this appears to be a bad faith attack on an IP user who disagrees with GotR on content (Whether ROC or Taiwan is appropriate, and when). It's ridiculous that if a user makes an edit or edits (even if they're not constructive) the only message they get is that they're being discussed on AN/I. Next time, follow BRD and don't waste other people's time. Coppaar (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a content issue but rather a behavioural one. It seems like changing references to Taiwan en-masse without discussion is pretty much only things the IP editor is doing. I practically hold the polar opposite of GotR's views on the Taiwan / China issue and I too find it disruptive. And if they are the same person (a reasonable assumption judging from the IPs and the pattern of editing), there have been previous attempts at communication: See this thread on my talk page. wctaiwan (talk) 06:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Am I mistaken in the belief that AN/I is not for content disputes? I don't think there's any clear evidence that the IP user is being intentionally disruptive, and the diffs don't show obvious POV-pushing to me. They all happened in a relatively short span of time, and apparently no attempt was made to communicate with the user, beyond this diff, as a notification that there was an AN/I discussion taking place. Frankly, this appears to be a bad faith attack on an IP user who disagrees with GotR on content (Whether ROC or Taiwan is appropriate, and when). It's ridiculous that if a user makes an edit or edits (even if they're not constructive) the only message they get is that they're being discussed on AN/I. Next time, follow BRD and don't waste other people's time. Coppaar (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- To emphasise what GotR said (noting that I neither participated in the requested move nor AFAIK have I ever left a particularly comment on this issue), a consensus for one article does not normally equate to a consensus for another article. Only with a wider RFC where what other articles will be called is specifically considered (likely one advertised in all relevent articles) would this generally be the case. And in this particular case, the closing admins explicitly noted the move did not include any other articles Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20. Note that this does not mean that the other articles can't be moved, simply that since it's likely to be disputed and any move should be discussed first and given we rarely require interarticle consistency, what the 'main' article is called is a fairly weak argument. Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sometime back in January this year, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)/Taiwan was split off, but it is no longer linked on the main naming conventions (Chinese) page. We have had multiple RFAR cases involving ROC vs Taiwan (Instantnood 2 and 3]) and I would highly recommend that page being revived up to the normal guidelines (as it went inactive somehow). This really isn't content dispute, as there were RFAR cases regarding these... - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 03:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- There needs to be a discussion if that is to be done. I'm uncertain but I think the removal of Taiwan-related parts from NC-ZH was done because there was consensus (or at least, significant dissent) that they were no longer suitable. But that's a matter for another discussion... wctaiwan (talk) 06:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- This is disruptive, but I don't know what can be done. At least one of the IPs used appears to be an IP for a local telco's 3G network, so rangeblocking could be problematic. wctaiwan (talk) 06:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- If the parts were removed due to unsuitable, the editors should have come up with alternatives before moving them. Especially when it's a contentious area... - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 09:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
ARBMAC enforcement needed
Could an uninvolved administrator with a lot of time on their hands please investigate the latest incarnation of the Yugoslav Wars currently raging on half a dozen article, talk, and project pages? A WP:ARBMAC smackdown is sorely needed, preferably with topic bans liberally applied. (Some of the participants have already racked up ARBMAC warnings.)
To give the briefest possible summary, edit conflicts arose on the articles for Boris Malagurski and his films (The Weight of Chains, Kosovo: Can You Imagine?, etc.). There are two camps of editors involved, one of which has a very favourable opinion of Malagurski's films, and the other a very negative opinion. The anti-Malagurski camp accuses the pro-Malagurski camp of POV-pushing, bad faith, adding unreliable sources, removing reliable sources, copyright violations, conflicts of interest, meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, block and ban evasion, etc. The pro-Malagurski camp accuses the anti-Malagurski camp of POV-pushing, bad faith, adding unreliable sources, removing reliable sources, copyright violations, abuse of process in the form of repeated AfDs, COIN and SPI reports, etc.
Regardless which of these accusations have any merit (and no doubt many of those made by both sides really do), the problem is that the disputes are spilling over everywhere and are spiralling out of control. As soon as any editor, whether or not they were previously involved in the discussion, attempts to separate out one single dispute for investigation by the community on the appropriate noticeboard, members from both camps flock to it and continue slagging it out over all the other accusations. AfD nominations, RSN reports, etc. end up in a mess of accusations of sockpuppetry, bad faith, etc. carried over from elsewhere. It is literally impossible to isolate and contain any one issue for a proper investigation.
Here is a list of currently affected pages, which probably isn't complete but can serve as a starting point:
- Talk:Boris Malagurski
- Talk:The Weight of Chains
- Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Boris_Malagurski.2C_Talk:The_Weight_of_Chains
- Wikipedia:COIN#Boris_Malagurski
- Wikipedia:RSN#E-novine_on_Boris_Malagurski
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kosovo: Can You Imagine? (2nd nomination)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski
- user talk pages of pretty much everyone participating in the above
Apologies for posting this while logged out, but I really don't want my account to be drawn into this morass. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't sound like an appropriate use of WP:SOCK#LEGIT (*->BWilkins<-*) 10:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed - and it is hard to assume good faith for this request as a consequence. GiantSnowman 10:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Please try; WP:SOCK#LEGIT isn't an exhaustive list of legitimate uses of anonymity. (Of course, neither is WP:SOCK#ILLEGIT, though I'm not in violation of any of those cases either, and have offered to prove this privately to User:BWilkins.) 149.255.57.233 (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- If the request were aimed at a specific party I might agree with you. This one is quite general however and is just looking for more eyes on EVERYONE. The benefit of the doubt here should be extended. At least until the articles have been looked at.Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Then I fail to see the need for anonymous reporting. GiantSnowman 10:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Surely if they have been involved with it, the returning-stick will hit them hard? Mdann52 (talk) 11:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed it would. If I were actually a member of one of these factions it would be rather stupid of me to come here requesting greater scrutiny of my own role in the disruption. So my use of anonymity is either a means of isolating myself from the problem as much as possible, or else some twisted way of committing suicide by boomerang. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Anon, my recommendation to you would be to contact an administrator by private e-mail from your main account, so that we can verify you are not otherwise involved in the situation. Send me a note if you like, privacy ensured. Fut.Perf. SU 12:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've contacted an administrator by e-mail and am awaiting a response. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 15:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hello. I'm your admin for this evening. I can verify that User:149.255.57.233 is (a) in my view of unimpeachable character, (b) definitely not Boris Malagurski or anyone associated with him (c) is not one of the principals in the dispute here on Wikipedia, (d) has never edited either of the two mainspace pages in question with their primary account (which is known to me), and (e) appears to genuinely concerned about the failure of dispute resolution on this matter, but without wanting to be dragged in to what appears to be a long-running and bitter dispute. This is not trouble-making but genuine concern. Morwen (Talk) 20:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've contacted an administrator by e-mail and am awaiting a response. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 15:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Anon, my recommendation to you would be to contact an administrator by private e-mail from your main account, so that we can verify you are not otherwise involved in the situation. Send me a note if you like, privacy ensured. Fut.Perf. SU 12:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed it would. If I were actually a member of one of these factions it would be rather stupid of me to come here requesting greater scrutiny of my own role in the disruption. So my use of anonymity is either a means of isolating myself from the problem as much as possible, or else some twisted way of committing suicide by boomerang. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Surely if they have been involved with it, the returning-stick will hit them hard? Mdann52 (talk) 11:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Then I fail to see the need for anonymous reporting. GiantSnowman 10:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed - and it is hard to assume good faith for this request as a consequence. GiantSnowman 10:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but if this person is so concerned why did they not seek to make their concerns known in the course of the various discussions and why do they turn up here directly after Mark Arsten raised the possibility of coming here with UrbanVillager yesterday evening?
- "… Sorry if I'm bothering you with all this information, but I don't know what else to do. I tried informing them that Wikipedia is not the place for those kinds of discussions, but this had no effect. Mark, what should I do? Regards, --UrbanVillager (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh hey, sorry that I forgot to respond to this. It totally slipped my mind last week. I only have a minute, but I think you might want to go to WP:DR or WP:ANI depending on how clear the disruption is (ANI will only work for clear disruption). Sorry that I can't be more help, Mark Arsten (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)" See User_talk:Mark Arsten#Boris Malagurski
- I've now been approached at my Talk page by someone using "UrbanVillager"'s user name but clearly a completely different person, offering an oddly framed invitation to work together on the Malagurski-related articles. I regret if I've given the impression here that I was born yesterday. Opbeith (talk) 13:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Coming from the opposite camp to the anonymous reporter I have to say that it is way beyond time for a thorough investigation of matters relating to Malagurski and the promotion of himself and his work in Wikipedia articles possibly involving his ongoing interaction with other editors who expand and defend unbalanced articles to him across a number of different national Wikipedias. While the real-world element is separate from the abuse of Wikipedia procedures, Wikipedia's failure to respond adequately to procedural irregularities when Malagurski's work is politically committed propaganda that denies recent war crimes of the most serious nature does have implications for how people perceive Wikipedia and its reliability. The fact that subject disputes over Balkans issues often seem impenetrable to outsiders is no reason to turn a blind eye when Wikipedia is being used as a vehicle for promoting non-scholarly politically-oriented questioning of legal findings at the highest level of international law. Opbeith (talk) 11:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Anonymous posting in this circumstance is fine per not a bureaucracy -- 149's claims are neutral -- consisting mostly of "please review these pages" and can easily be checked by reviewing those pages. NE Ent 12:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately Ent, WP:ANI is not an "anonymous tip line". It's structured and labelled in a way that the accuser is required to advise the accused. A drive-by anonymous post - as valid as it may be - goes 180 degrees away from that tranparency. (*->BWilkins<-*) 12:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well if you want to be picky about it - you would have to be of the opinion that 'Please review the situation' requires notifying EVERYONE who may possibly be in the topic area to be notified. Which really is bereaucratic overload.... Anyway the notice is 'You have to notify any user who is the subject of a discussion'. Not really applicable in a general plea for 'more eyes'. Need to be reasonable here. Anyway, suggest IP follows Fut.Perf's sensible suggestion above, although I am going to go have a gander anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Anonymous 149 did in fact notify me and I believe other people (I know of at least one). Opbeith (talk) 13:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- There's been a lot of murky activity revealed in this Malagurski fiasco and this non-transparent report may be an extension of that. What possible repercussions could an uninvolved party possibly fear? This is the third time that UrbanVillager has posted the same exact message and this may have been an attempt to get a bigger audience. [22][23] The numerous and deliberate misrepresentations of editors' actions in his message is hilarious. --* PRODUCER (TALK) 13:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well if you want to be picky about it - you would have to be of the opinion that 'Please review the situation' requires notifying EVERYONE who may possibly be in the topic area to be notified. Which really is bereaucratic overload.... Anyway the notice is 'You have to notify any user who is the subject of a discussion'. Not really applicable in a general plea for 'more eyes'. Need to be reasonable here. Anyway, suggest IP follows Fut.Perf's sensible suggestion above, although I am going to go have a gander anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
After being notified that there is a discussion regarding this issue, I feel a little more hopeful that somebody will actually devote some attention to the issue at hand. On one hand, there are more than reasonable rules and regulations on article building, user conduct and dispute resolution, and on the other hand not many people seem to care about any of those things unless if the topic in question is very popular. I've tried following the rules, I made a few mistakes (some because of lack of knowledge, some because I was lazy), apologized for them and did my best to correct them. I've followed advice on how to resolve issues that pop up, and yet, the issues have gotten even more complicated. Regarding Boris Malagurski and his films, I follow information about that via Malagurski's Facebook page (together with 12,000 people who 'liked' the page) and his websites, and I added stuff on Wikipedia I found interesting from time to time (when I found reliable references, of course) and I thought that was the point of Wikipedia - to see what interests you and edit that when you have free time. Of course, other stuff interests me too, I edited a few other articles as well, but I feel like there are a lot of people who already edit most of those other articles, so I did focus on the ones that I thought were neglected to an extent - Malagurski and his work. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that somebody would accuse me of being on Malagurski's payroll or Malagurski himself for doing that and for discussing the topic on the talk page of the Malagurski article and the articles of his films.
I hate arguing, and when I noticed that editors like Opbeith were aggressively demanding the addition of blogs and fishy websites as sources, I assumed that unbiased, independent editors would show up and note that this can't be used on Wikipedia. This never happened. However, Opbeith wasn't alone, and several other editors, who seem to really have issues (personal and ideological) with Malagurski and his films (for example, "Malagurski's work is crap" - Opbeith), quickly organized to subvert every single attempt I made at resolving issues in a civilized manned and in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. These editors, User:Opbeith, User:PRODUCER, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner, have as their only purpose, regarding the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles, to do any or all of the following:
- Promoting the addition of slander to the article, using as references Internet forums, blogs and fishy websites that, among other things, photoshop a "BIA" badge, trying to prove that Malagurski works for Serbia's Security Information Agency, on an original photo where there is no badge; or call Malagurski an unemployed Vancouver-based amateur "film director", apologist for Serbian Nazi-collaborating Chetniks and a racist genocide denier (this article the most disputed one they tried to push, carried by E-novine); while, at the same time dismissing actual relevant reliable media sources as "tabloids", including Politika, the oldest daily newspaper in the Balkans.
- Clogging the talk pages with discussions on just how much Malagurski's work is crap, how horrible the people he interviewed are [24], how Malagurski is just an outright extremist [25], and much more.
- Not allowing any good-faith discussion to proceed without personal attacks.
- Personally attacking anyone who disagrees that Malagurski is exactly who they say he is. Accusing me of not allowing the addition of any sources that don't have a positive outlook on Malagurski, which is not true. I agreed to the addition of a Croatian link that described Malagurski's film as "too pro-Serbian".[26] I've also stated several times that I have no personal interest in there not being any criticism of Malagurski and his work, as I believe (and I think Wikipedia does as well) that well-sourced criticism is very healthy for any article, but only if it's truly - well-sourced.
- Removing sourced material ([27], etc.), promoting the idea that any source that has a neutral or positive attitude towards the topic is all part of Malagurski's "self-promoting machinery", and adding irrelevant poorly-sourced material ([28], [29], etc.) that constitutes original research and POV pushing.
- Promoting the deletion of these articles. PRODUCER nominated "Kosovo: Can You Imagine?" for deletion, again claiming that the sources that support the notability of the article are tabloids. When I noted that, for example, Vecernje novosti is a renowned Serbian newspaper and news source which exists for almost 60 years now, also the leading Serbian book publisher, with over 5 million books on diverse cultural topics sold, 159 titles including books by Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Proust, Bulgakov, Nabokov, Faulkner, Orwell, Kafka, Sabato, Andric, Crnjanski, Selimovic, etc.[30], PRODUCER went on to change the Vecernje novosti article so that it says it's a "tabloid", without adding a source.
This is a very well-coordinated attack mechanism aimed at slowly destroying the Malagurski article and all articles related to it. I could provide more references to back up these claims, this is just the top of the iceberg. I'd just add that I checked with the sources noticeboard regarding the disputed E-novine source I mentioned before, one editor commented agreeing with me that E-novine was not the kind of source we should use on Wikipedia [31]. Naturally, Producer jumped to defend the source, even calling User:Joy to lend his support. I've tried contacting the film MOS, Dispute resolution, Sources noticeboard regarding the issues in question, but nothing has changed. I believe none of these editors have any good faith when it comes to the articles in question - almost every single edit they made was motivated by any one of the points that I listed. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
It was at Cultural Conflicts noticeboard a month ago with no real notice. I will drop Bob a note and see if he has any thoughts since it seems to have got worse since then. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- This issue has been raised for discussion in several different places; occasionally UrbanVillager tries explaining their reverts on article talkpages (with selectively quoted policies), occasionally they reply at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski or Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard or wherever. I tried starting a thread on Wikipedia:Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard but that didn't get much response. The nature of the underlying problem is complex - self-promotion, sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, misuse of sources, gaming the system, and the more general Balkan Problem which en.wikipedia has always struggled to deal with - so individual noticeboards haven't always coped well with Malaguski-related content in the past. The proliferation is a problem, but then again the underlying issue with articles and editors still isn't getting resolved. The issue is also currently at DRN. If DRN has sufficient teeth to resolve a long-term editing problem which has not been solved by discussion alone, then we should let the DRN thread continue. If DRN is simply a place where people are supposed to discuss until they reach a compromise, the DRN thread will not solve the problem.
- Because Malagurski's films promote a certain nationalist perspective of events in the Balkans, they are guaranteed some opportunistic support from a small number of editors who I might charitably characterise as being on one side or another in enwiki's difficult Balkan editing environment - but a small number is enough to make a big difference on an obscure article. For instance, WhiteWriter (talk · contribs) - who I often disagree with but I'd never deny that they're an intelligent and competent editor - somehow got suckered using sites like this as sources for film-awards supposedly won by one of Malagurski's films. The sources make no mention of Malagurski or his films at all; but, hey, that's how sources and awards work in the Malagurskiverse. WhiteWriter even started a retaliatory SPI against me - claiming that an editor in a different country who I'd reverted and reported to a noticeboard was actually my sock. Usually WhiteWriter has much greater nous and good-faith; but articles connected to Malagurski create a toxic editing environment.
- I would be very appreciative if uninvolved editors could spend some time looking at the editing history, particularly the earliest edits and the timestamps, of any account which appears from nowhere to vote "keep" on any of the AfDs of articles in the Malagurskiverse. Including UrbanVillager. There have been a few AfDs raised by independent editors over the years.
- I respect Uzma Gamal greatly, but am genuinely amazed that Uzma Gamal closed the COIN case with "UrbanVillager does not have a COI with the Boris Malagurski topic" - having had to spend far too much time looking at UrbanVillager's edits I find it very hard to find an alternative explanation - but needless to say this will now be used by UrbanVillager to remove any tags and shut down any future comments on the topic. In particular, UrbanVillager's remarkable ability to find (entirely positive) information about Malagurski which is not readily googled - whether it's uploading own-work photos taken at an event involving Malagurski, or adding information for which there is no documentary evidence at all - has attracted comment from various editors, but that COIN closure is sure to be used to shut down such comments in future.
- I am disappointed by UrbanVillager's continued claims that there is a conspiracy of editors to "slander" this obscure film-maker. I work on a lot of different controversial topics so I'm used to this kind of crap. There is no such conspiracy, of course, but it is a symptom of the problem. bobrayner (talk) 17:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- For those unfamiliar with the Balkan Problem, I'd like to point out these three diffs which illustrate where we're at: [32] [33] [34]. Reliable sources say that Serbia invaded Kosovo, but in the Malagurski-verse Kosovo "re-acceded into Serbia's sovereignty", a TRUTH which must UrbanVillager must maintain - with plenty of reverts - in articles related to this obscure film-maker. I'm happy to provide plenty of other diffs on similar points if necessary. bobrayner (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- My response relates only to 'The weight of Chains', I know very little about any of the other pages and have not contributed to them.
- OK, I've said this on 3 seperate dispute notice boards in the last few days, and dozens of times on the talk page. Neither Opbeith,Bobrayner nor I have introduced, or attempted to introduce any material from blogs or similair dubious sources into this article, therefore it would be courteous of UrbanVillager if he would stop saying we had.
- I apologise for bolding, but I am really tired of repeating this. If I am significantly wrong in this regard, I will unreservedly apologise to UrbanVillager and others repeating this accusation.
- One of the examples of supposedly unsourced material given above was sponsorship information, introduced by Producer and the material was in fact from the film's own website. Producer's only crime was to not provide links to that site***. The source of this information was, and is, well known to UrbanVillager (and he also knows that a). I partially supported him in this matter b). a concensus IS being reached on this matter), therefore, either UrbanVillager has a very short memory or he is being knowingly dishonest in citing it as an example of introducing unsourced material.
- I really don't want to dispute all the other claims made by UrbanVillager, since I have already done so several times in the last few days and because I believe that a proper examination of the talk page will reveal a sincere wish on my part (and the others I have mentioned), to arrive at a full, fair, balanced account of this film.
- Even for the most open minded and fair person, this film does present big problems in knowing HOW to report it. I say this because this film has SO MANY contentious assertions, so often itself relies on (almost universally) discredited evidence, and at times is knowingly intellectually dishonest (I will not cite any of the many emotive/controversial examples of this, but instead cite several times that the voiceover commentary says something SIGNIFICANTLY different - and more contentious - than the document being filmed ACTUALLY says .... when I pointed this out on the talk page, I was accused by UrbanVillager of 'doing original research' (well, yes, I froze the DVD to read the document) and adding 'opinionated comments' to the talk page) .... I believe we MUST be free to discuss the claims/assertions/arguments of the film on the talk page, and also, since this purports to be an account of modern history, be free to discuss INTELLIGENTLY the history which the film claims to be making an account of. Of course, at the end of the day, we need to reach a decision about HOW to describe this film and its claims, but at the moment that is not happening precisely because of these dispute noticeboards.
- I have probably already wasted more time than I should have on this anonymous accusation. However I am happy to provide any further information or corroboration should it be needed.Pincrete (talk) 22:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- CORRECTIONI have just been informed (and checked myself), that Producer DID in fact provide "a link to the official site then I added a web mirror archived link of the official site to go alongside the link to the official site itself". I apologise to PRODUCER for saying otherwise. This makes the accusation that he has been trying to introduce unsourced material even more absurd !Pincrete (talk) 22:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- CORRECTIONI have just been informed (and checked myself), that Producer DID in fact provide "a link to the official site then I added a web mirror archived link of the official site to go alongside the link to the official site itself". I apologise to PRODUCER for saying otherwise. This makes the accusation that he has been trying to introduce unsourced material even more absurd !Pincrete (talk) 22:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- My response relates only to 'The weight of Chains', I know very little about any of the other pages and have not contributed to them.
- I closed the COIN1 case and posted a comment in COIN2. The following is the status (as of this post) of noticeboard requests concerning UrbanVillager:
- ANI1 27 February 2012 - Outcome: "Old edits, no need for admin action right now. OP advised to carry on editing article and see what happens"
- NPOVN 19 March 2012: Outcome: ended without reply
- SPI1 7 August 2012: Outcome: "No clear evidence is given anywhere in this investigation. Therefore, no action can be taken"
- COIN1 6 November 2012 (12:26) - Outcome: "UrbanVillager does not have a COI with the Boris Malagurski topic"
- Dispute resolution noticeboard 6 November 2012 (19:06): Outcome: Ongoing
- Reliable sources Notice board 6 November 2012 (20:37): Outcome: discussion archived without close
- SPI2 13 November 2012: Outcome: Ongoing
- ANI2 14 November 2012 - Outcome: Ongoing
- COIN2 15 November 2012: Outcome: Ongoing
- -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
A little more evidence
- Over at COIN, I have posted a complete summary of all UrbanVillager's edits to article-space. I think this illuminates the COI concerns; I would be grateful if any uninvolved admin (who has a lot of time on their hands) could read through the list.
- That COIN posting focusses on the COI issue. It took a while to put that package together because it's a complex and partially-hidden problem. It's not a complete package - it's still possible to drill down deeper into some edits which appear to show UrbanVillager having what could charitably be called insider access to information. I'll build a second package focussing on the sock/meatpuppetry issue, so please don't close the SPI prematurely. Personally, I think the tendentious editing, misuse of sources &c is a bigger problem, but the DRN thread can wait. bobrayner (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Uzma does seem to have a somewhat unique view on the scope of COIN investigations. That said, keep in mind that a "ruling" at COIN means little one way or the other, and would have little impact on the ability of UrbanVillager to continue editing in the same way that he has been. That said, I think Uzma did err in his closure. It's clear to me from your behavioral evidence that UrbanVillager at the very minimum has access to insider information on this topic area, which, combined with the biased editing, strongly indicates a COI. One of the reasons this issue isn't getting much outside help is all the walls of text, copious writing, and forum shopping. Gigs (talk) 16:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- IOW, we all know that BM and his "Serbian Youth League" has been gaming the system since 2006, but we're all resigned to it because they're just so good at it. At this point we should probably award them a special barnstar for the effort. :< --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree, Joy, they're not that good at it. Any of us who's had an involvement with any of the articles where they're active has been aware of it from years back. There's been plenty of indication. Nevertheless they get away with it because there's never any sustained Wikipedia effort to get to the bottom of the problem/keep on top of it. The record of their activities should have some sort of institutional archive somewhere at Wikipedia so that it's not a matter of starting all over from scratch each time they show they're getting out of control. Opbeith (talk) 08:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- IOW, we all know that BM and his "Serbian Youth League" has been gaming the system since 2006, but we're all resigned to it because they're just so good at it. At this point we should probably award them a special barnstar for the effort. :< --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Uzma does seem to have a somewhat unique view on the scope of COIN investigations. That said, keep in mind that a "ruling" at COIN means little one way or the other, and would have little impact on the ability of UrbanVillager to continue editing in the same way that he has been. That said, I think Uzma did err in his closure. It's clear to me from your behavioral evidence that UrbanVillager at the very minimum has access to insider information on this topic area, which, combined with the biased editing, strongly indicates a COI. One of the reasons this issue isn't getting much outside help is all the walls of text, copious writing, and forum shopping. Gigs (talk) 16:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- My COI view is from WP:COI which looks to diffs showing External relationships to establish a COI with a specific topic. WP:COI also notes at biased editing that "beliefs and desires alone do not constitute a conflict of interest. They may lead to biased editing, but biased editing can occur in the absence of a conflict of interest." No specific diffs were posted in that COIN1 discussion showing behavioral evidence that UrbanVillager has access to insider information. Psychonaut concluded in COIN1 that, "I therefore submit that, in the absence of further evidence, this is not a COI issue but rather a garden-variety content and sourcing dispute which should be dealt with at the appropriate venues therefor."[35] A "ruling" at COIN does not mean for all time going forward for all purposes. It means that the editor either has or does not have a COI with a specific topic based on the evidence presented in the discussion. The same with a decision at SPI. In the end, it is not reasonable to maintain an editor under a perpetual state of suspicion and use that suspicion as a way to dissuade the editor from participating in Wikipedia. Instead of lamenting that "BM and his "Serbian Youth League" has been gaming the system since 2006, but we're all resigned to it because they're just so good at it," the most obvious place for this issue is WP:NPOVN where you can pursue the bias issue and, if UrbanVillager's edits show bias, the editors at NPOVN will take action to address the bias. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 15:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Nobody showed interest in the problem the last time it was raised at NPOVN (and it was difficult getting people at WP:CCN interested in the walls of text). Raising it there again would surely raise more complaints about forum-shopping, proliferation of threads &c. The DRN thread was closed because of "forum shopping" and an apparent lack of content issues - suggesting that there was COI &c instead. Of course, at COI it gets a "not this noticeboard" response too. Even though there is clear evidence of behavioural problems, specific actional content problems, every problem imaginable - each board seems to lean towards "try the other board". I'm not sure how the DRN one was technically forumshopping as it was actually opened by UrbanVillager rather than one of the many opposing editors whom UrbanVillager accuses of conspiring to use multiple pages & processes to slander Malagurski. So, how on earth can we resolve the problem? Any future thread anywhere is likely to be shut down with either "go to a different board", or "forum shopping" or, if it survives long enough, hitherto-inactive editors will suddenly appear out of the woodwork to support UrbanVillager. My original interest was because Malagurski articles are used to push Malagurski's view of recent Balkan history, which is incompatible with what reliable sources say; but take it to ARBMAC and suddenly a couple of editors will pop up to say that these are articles about a filmmaker, nothing to do with the Balkans... bobrayner (talk) 17:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- For heaven's sake, who has sought to dissuade UrbanVillager from participating in Wikipedia? We have been trying to get him to loosen his control over the Malagurski-related articles. Because of the clearly anomalous situation regarding reliable sources, he continues to remain very much in overall control of their imbalanced content, complaining loudly whenever there's any challenge to his control. Go read through the Talk page at The Weight of Chains and you can see what an uphill battle editors who disagree with that control have had in order to secure some reasonable amendments. Uzma Gamal, you're turning the situation on its head. Opbeith (talk) 16:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Help: Is there any way of "watchlisting" only this particular "Incident" on the Noticeboard? I'm getting swamped. Opbeith (talk) 07:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by several users
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Hello, since the case is about two users with similar behaviour edit warring over the Bulgaria article, I'll post a notification on both of them.
- User:Ceco31 has made dozens of reverts for the past two weeks. The edits consist of replacement of existing images without prior discussion and adding tendentious statements; my explanation to the user why this shouldn't be done (citing recommendations of the previous FA nomination and MoS on images) has been ignored. The majority of the statements in question are almost exclusively wikipuffery of this kind, although recent ones have been on a larger scale and also consist of poorly formatted sources and text. I have asked the user to cease this sort of behaviour on his talk page, only to receive a negative response.
- User:PPMit, a single-purpose account, for deleting sourced content without explanation. [36][37] The user tends to explain his viewpoint with long and opinionated argumentation and involves other users in time-consuming, lengthy disputes.
All this comes after a 140-kb content dispute involving a tag team of single-purpose accounts demonstrating similar behaviour. Me and several other users (including an admin) - User:Chipmunkdavis, User:WilliamThweatt, User:Jingiby and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise - went as far as dispute resolution and arbitration in an attempt to resolve the issue, but this only resulted in a 3-month block for one of the SPAs, while the rest continued to unleash endless rants, engage other contributors in edit wars and generally waste the time of those who can be productive. The article was in the works for an FA nomination, but the behaviour of Ceco31 and PPMit - who have remained the most active of those disrupting - has been more unproductive at the very least. I believe appropriate measures should be taken here, since the two dispute resolution attempts have failed (due to lack of participation by all users) and the arbitration only sanctioned the most vocal user of this group. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Based on a report at WP:ANEW, I blocked User:Ceco31 for 72 hours for edit-warring ([38]).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Useddenim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) accuse me of vandalism. Who had given him such right?
I removed the superfluous information because already there are all icons and other are unnecessary, and i explained page editing. --Туча (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, party I agree with the opinion of Useddenim about this edit. It is a bit strange to remove one American train because American trains do not require special icon or two special icons! This is the usual train. On the other hand, you leave the trams and rapid transport, not clearly American, untouched...
- But, I must admit, Useddenims reply looks rather harsh and possesive to me! The Banner talk 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've left a message telling them to not use the phrase "vandalism" unless it fit the description under WP:VANDAL. As whether or not Туча's edit was a good one or not, that is not up to us admin, that is to be decided by the editors themselves. I don't see a need for any other action at this point since it was a one off issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:08, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Heironymous Rowe and Dougweller
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Dougweller and Heironymous has constantly been attacking users who edit the melungeon page and this has been going on for around 2 years or more. The latest attack came from Dougweller as he falsely stated sockpuppetry and used this to put a block from editing the Melungeon page. They have used false editwar warnings to people after only 1 or 2 edits. Here is the latest from Dougweller "(Protected Melungeon: Persistent sock puppetry ([edit=autoconfirmed] (expires 11:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC))))" And as you can see from the melungeon page's edits there was no sockpuppets. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Melungeon&action=history
Then his friend who is also some type of admin here decided to publically use profanity toward me for trying to show my sources and talk this out. "Please take this to the section I started at the article talkpage. And the source you just used above rootsweb.ancestry, STILL ISNT A FU(%ING RELIABLE SOURCE. Heiro 07:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)"
The source I used was actually " 1870 census of johnson county, KY"
I'm not sure what your polciy is on admins using profanity to editors but flat out publically using profanity to editors ( who by the way donate their own money to keep wikipedia running) is not acceptable behaviour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Heironymous_Rowe#Melungeon_sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 07:48, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Here is what Rowe had left me a message of before I tried to show him my sources in his talk page "But you are someone who has yet to take their disputed sourcing to WP:RSN, who has yet to abide by WP:BRD, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:RELIABLE and WP:EDITWAR. Continuing to insert unreliably sourced material into this article will result in this matter being taken to the WP:3rr board. Please come up with reliable sourcing or stop inserting this information into the article. Thank you, Heiro 00:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk)
- The 1870 Federal Census is being cited but does it actually state that "David Collins is a proven Vardy Collins descendant"?Shearonink (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not an admin, nor have I ever claimed to be. I did make the edit above, on my own talkpage in frustration after their repeated refusal to take this to the article talkpage section I had started, and then thinking better of it immediately removed it, once again pointing them to the article talk page. Anyone who wishes to can go look at the recent article history and weigh in at the article talkpage. I could actually use a voice of reason there. Heiro 08:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- No there was not any repeated refusal, people can see this on your talk page. You started that AFTER I LEFT YOU MESSAGES...and it was NOT repeated. This can bee seen all in your talk page edits. And yes you have told people you are a admin and you have threatened to have people banned numerous times to...you and your friend Doug. But now you have resorted to using profanity to users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 08:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sigh, you haven't exactly stuck to one IP address, see these User_talk:76.8.172.103, 76.8.174.113, as wells as num erous edit summaries in the article history. Heiro 08:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Heironymous Rowe is not an admin.[39] If he has claimed to be one, as you assert, you need to show those diffs. Doc talk 08:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
You use a whois to find sock puppets....Nothing I have done constitutes sock puppet. You and your friend have for over 2 years harassed and threatened other editors who do not agree with you. You and your friend does what ever it takes to keep people from editing numerous wikipedia pages that deal with indian or black race. And yes you have on numerous occasions told people you are a admin and threatened to ban or block them from pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 08:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Okay - I call incompetence and/or trolling. The very idea that this editor and their "friend"(s)? keep people from editing "numerous wikipedia pages that deal with indian or black race". Buh-bye. Seriously, now. Doc talk 08:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not really either, just POV pushing and WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT. They insist on using sources that do not pass WP:RELIABLE for genetics on a page about an ethnic group. Several editors, of which I am one, have asked them to please provide sources for their claims. They continue to use blogs, forums, WP:SYNTH, etc. If you look at my contribs, I edit mostly archaeological sites related to Native Americans, Dougweller is an admin who concentrates on archaeological sites and on keeping WP:FRINGE material and badly sourced material out of artic les dealing with these subjects. Heiro 08:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
again back to the profanity, here is your reply simple from me informing you about me putting you on this talk page (which I'm required to do), Harassment? No, requesting adequate sourcing is not harassment, it is part of policy. Profanity? Not against the rules here. Also, Wikipedia users do not pay to edit here. Now, take this to the damn article talkpage and see the list of reasons why your sources are inadequate. :-) Heiro 08:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) Actually as I have stated before out of ALL the sources, only 1 was from a blog, only 1, and that is the blog of the co founder of the melungeon dna project and that blog was full of sources right there when you go to it. So it was only 1 blog. You have also removed family tree dna sources that state against what the melungeon page stated yet you had that removed and said it was not a wikipedia used source even though the Melungeon DNA was done thru Family tree DNA and family tree DNA is who tested the dana and is who runs the melungeon dna project.
- Obvious block-evading sock is obviously blocked. The end. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't this in the ARBMAC realm? Fringe stuff? Oh, boy... Doc talk 08:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Who's he a sock of? Swarm X 08:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- (EC)Not to quibble with the block, but to be fair and honest I'm not sure they are a block evading sock or I would have asked for a block sooner in this saga. They do occasionally switch IPs, but I don't think that is their fault, more their ISP. Another editor who is a block evading sock (User:Marburg72)(IPs usually begin with 166.147.) is a WP:FRINGE pushing editor who likes to follow me around and be disruptive, and has hit this article several times. I have no reason to believe these are the same two people. A case for a block of 76.8.167.38 could be made on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:EDITWAR could be made, but since they're blocked now I guess it doesn't matter. Heiro 08:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's possible he's telling the truth that he's not a sockpuppet or evading any blocks. I still would have blocked him for a week for edit warring and general disruptive behavior. It's apparent from looking at the edits under his current and former IP addresses that he is presently incapable of working in a collaborative manner. Either he learns to use dispute resolution or he'll keep getting blocked. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- (EC)Not to quibble with the block, but to be fair and honest I'm not sure they are a block evading sock or I would have asked for a block sooner in this saga. They do occasionally switch IPs, but I don't think that is their fault, more their ISP. Another editor who is a block evading sock (User:Marburg72)(IPs usually begin with 166.147.) is a WP:FRINGE pushing editor who likes to follow me around and be disruptive, and has hit this article several times. I have no reason to believe these are the same two people. A case for a block of 76.8.167.38 could be made on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:EDITWAR could be made, but since they're blocked now I guess it doesn't matter. Heiro 08:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever it is, I don't think its ARBMAC. Perhaps Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence is a little closer, but not quite there either, imho. bobrayner (talk) 08:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well the first link is about info that certainly falls under 'race' (DNA testing and racial grouping). So I would say it squarely hits R&I. Unless R&I is to be taken literally in that it must be both race AND intelligence... But I dont think it is. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Why are we going by titles of cases? The decision itself says the area of conflict, where discretions sanctions maybe handed out is 'the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed'. While I see a lot of stuff relating to race here, I don't see anything related to abilities or behaviour so I don't see how this falls under R&I. However at the very least it looks like there are BLP issues and really anyone who thinks nonsense about the maritial status of the founder of some random DNA testing company and what awards the company has won belongs in an article about a people needs to step away from editing until they familiarise themselves with how to write an encylopaedia. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it looks to me as if race and intelligence really is about topics that are both race and intelligence; it would be absurd to sanction someone on it for things that are race only. I've not looked at the facts here, so I can't support or disagree with Nil Einne, but of course we can sanction disruptive people on other grounds. But it's definitely not Macedonia :-) Nyttend (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Why are we going by titles of cases? The decision itself says the area of conflict, where discretions sanctions maybe handed out is 'the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed'. While I see a lot of stuff relating to race here, I don't see anything related to abilities or behaviour so I don't see how this falls under R&I. However at the very least it looks like there are BLP issues and really anyone who thinks nonsense about the maritial status of the founder of some random DNA testing company and what awards the company has won belongs in an article about a people needs to step away from editing until they familiarise themselves with how to write an encylopaedia. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well the first link is about info that certainly falls under 'race' (DNA testing and racial grouping). So I would say it squarely hits R&I. Unless R&I is to be taken literally in that it must be both race AND intelligence... But I dont think it is. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Who's he a sock of? Swarm X 08:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Accusations of POV-pushing and racism at Tipperary Hill
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I posted on this matter less than a week ago, but received only one response. As this has flared up again, I am hoping someone will intervene before this escalates.
Once again, I see no NPOV issues here. The section is factual and referenced, and it does not push a pro-Irish position. It simply states what happened. The anon. offers no actual evidence of POV, and I cannot make sense of most of his long-winded rants. He is clearly not understanding my comments, or he is intentionally misrepresenting them, because I never said "'cause I say so". I am hoping some other editors and/or admins can step in and sort this out. Thanks. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 18:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- You would receive more responses had you examined the rules of posting and attempted to discuss the matter with me on my talk page rather than blanking out my additions to the articles talk page.
- Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page.
- An administrator may need to step in. It is not normal behavior to censor users and report them to administrators as you did in the first instance (when you blanked my entry on the talk page telling me to take my 'ignorant rants elsewhere') purely because they have raised concerns with article quality, weasel wording, and racism on an article. It is not normal behavior to constantly remove an NPOV flag regardless of you saying 'there is no NPOV'--which appears to be your reasoning--you stating your point of view does not mean the dispute is resolved. In fact the NPOV boiler plate itself states quite clearly not to remove the NPOV tag until the dispute is resolved and to discuss it on the talk page (note, discuss, not talk and refuse to read anything anywhere!)
- Your talk page whilst protected and censored has a history. In it's history, and your 'alternate' heavily censored talk page (which you basically warn anything you disagree with will be deleted) show many instances where you have been warned about your conduct and poor behavior. To be honest, I have absolutely no idea how given the behavior and conduct issues I can see in your history from a brief examination that you have not been banned for your hostile behavior towards other Wikipedians. :/
- You have made no attempt to discuss your apparent grievances with me besides reporting me multiple times on this board, again not what it is here for given that you haven't read the fun exciting stuff at the top of the page.
- To deal with the issues on the article in question a 3rd opinion is a good first port of call followed perhaps by dispute resolution. But merely yelling loudly and edit warring is not going to get anything done, let alone improve the article quality.
- Whilst I understand your comprehension of my 'long winded rants' may be lacking, I do understand that everything Irish is clearly a very strong passion of yours. I do fear however that in this instance it has become a problem. Given that I have absolutely no vested interest (and barely an interest besides a reddit link) with the article in question my issues of racism and article quality are specifically from a neutral agenda and for the purpose of improving the article and ditching the overt 'boys will be boys' re-working systematic vandalism and bullying of the council in question has been mitigated down to. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:51, 15 November 2012 (UTC) (User:BaSH PR0MPT (can't recover my pass, on holidays, will be back home Saturday))
- The issue is resolved. The tag is removed. Someone please look this over and close it. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- That article needs help from someone with some pruning shears. Drmies (talk) 02:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Administrative review of Valkyrie Red
Valkyrie Red (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Valkyrie Red/Archive
- Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Valkyrie Red
Although his prior ANI reports and block log would appear to be history, this is the kind of editing that he has been doing recently:
Since I have been in conflict with this editor in the past, I'll just leave this here for review and leave it to others to describe the editing that they see and determine the actions (if any) that should be taken.
I will notify the editor of this review.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 05:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Looks like a long-term pattern of vandalism, any fresh instances? Max Semenik (talk) 07:10, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- All of your diffs are old. Really old. Caden cool 07:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- A diff from November 9 is not "really old".--Atlan (talk) 09:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I did some digging to see if there was anything else that cropped up and found these which are much older diffs and are pretty much the first acts of vandalism that I could find from when the account was first created in 2009 and are in addition to the ones that Berean Hunter posted above.
- There's not a consistent history of vandalism, so I imagine that the very most anyone can do in this case is a final vandalism warning, although how they couldn't know that this isn't tolerated is beyond me considering they've been here for 3 years.Blackmane (talk) 10:07, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- A diff from November 9 is not "really old".--Atlan (talk) 09:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- All of your diffs are old. Really old. Caden cool 07:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- At least 5 cases of vandalism in the last year. I'd suggest he be blocked until he can convince an unblocking admin he won't do it again. He's being disruptive, and there is no possibly legitimate excuse for it. More vandalism, strange edits: [40][41][42]. A large fraction of his edits in the last year that weren't redirects were vandalism or dubious. IRWolfie- (talk) 03:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
WP:ENGVAR edit-warring
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Merritttttt (talk · contribs) is edit-warring at color blindness over the spelling of the word "color", changing all instances of the word to comply with Commonwealth English spelling. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 10:16, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Every edit seems to be for teh lulz. contribs --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- He was blocked a few minutes before your post :-) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hopefully all future contributions will be less opposite of this . Doc talk 10:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- He was blocked a few minutes before your post :-) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
No attention to dispute resolution
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I am here to report User:Pks1142. I know a thread was just closed yesterday I think regarding this but I'm at straws end regarding what to do with this user. First removed a whole chunk of information from the article "In My City", without any consensus on the talk page. I reverted and asked to comment and discuss on the talk page. The user started canvassing other writers while bad mouthing me, instead of trying to discuss. Also, raised another ANI thread falsely accusing me of attacking him, when I haven't done no such thing, and on top of that asked another user, who had given me a barnstar for developing the "In My City" article, why he did so since he was deserving? I overlooked all these actions as childlish and immature when the user confessed that he was disturbed. The next day, the addition of unverifiable content continued. I specifically pointed out this behavior and that I was only willing to have a rational discussion, provided Wikipedia rules are kept in mind. The user again started removing while discussion was going on in the talk page. I'm going to lose control some day. I don't want to break 3RR and I'm aware of it. But this is getting ridiculous! He just now removed a whole section based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Coupled with the fact that again raised another ANI thread, which was closed by admin Yun, and continuing to accuse me falsely of attacking him, this is pure harassment! I'm really sorry to bring this to you guys here but my pleas on discussing content and then achieving consensus is falling on deaf ears. I don't know what else to do. This is a serious block on a collaborative environment to write and this sucks! Sucks for me, sucks for you gus too. I did not go to DRC, thinking what's the point? The user is anyways not paying attention to policies, or consensus, and that will cause more upheavel and mess. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 11:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
And I think this 3RR needs to stop. [43], [44], [45]. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 11:12, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ok,but you should see your mistakes,when I asked you to discuss you refused.And your globalpost source says everything that what your edits all about.
- First,video counts has nothing to do with commerce,you added views count in commerce.
- secondly,Proomotions doesn't include who thought what,who said what,who planned what,who predicted what.History behind promotion doesn't make sense.
- I has given explanation with every edit.
- You refused to discuss.
(Pks1142 (talk) 11:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC))
- Again, WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for removal. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 11:33, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Take a look ,first it make sense
- Again, WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for removal. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 11:33, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Seeing that many pop artists use music and reality-based videos to create awareness around their upcoming releases, Chopra's team planned to create different promotional contents, like interviews of the artist, and behind-the-scenes footage with long-and-short documentaries, that would be released to the internet. The videos and interviews would focus on Chopra's journey in becoming a pop artist. Since most of the top ten hits in India are mainly songs from Bollywood films—where the actors lip-synch to the song—Chopra's label wanted to promote her as the first Bollywood actress who can also sing. According to Lee Hawkins from The Wall Street Journal, "If Chopra is able to convincingly establish herself as a respected singer, she will be a pioneer in South Asia. Throughout 2011, Anthony Saleh, one of Carter's partners at Atom Factory Inc., worked closely with Chopra for several weeks. Beyond selling music, the team planned to use Chopra's popularity and tap into ancillary revenue streams such as corporate sponsorships, high-fashion modeling, film and television, concert touring, and music publishing. Saleh added that they also "plan on developing [Chopra] as a songwriter
- So where is promotion here.Does it say Chopra performed somewhere.(Pks1142 (talk) 11
- 43, 16 November 2012 (UTC))
- Please stop trying to discuss content issues on this page. ANI is not a venue for dispute resolution or content discussions. IndianBio, please can you clarify what administrative action you are seeking - are you asking that we block Pks1142, warn him, enact a topic/article ban or what? You do not seem to have attempted any form of heightened DR, such as requesting a third opinion or filing at DRN. Yunshui 雲水 11:48, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ok so even Administrators are taking his side.Sir,I would ask you to see my edits,and above phrase does it say anything about promotion.If you see We Found Love article ,it doesn't. Say that Rihanna's team plaannes" " It directly say she performed at various venues.So that's what I'm trying to say.(Pks1142 (talk) 11:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC))
- I really apologize Yunshui for bringing this here, but as I said before, I'm clueless as to what to do with someone who keeps on removing content without discussing them, then tries to harass me by raising ANI threads instead. This is the sole reason I did not ask DR to intervene. Let's face it what's the point? Pks1142 will go on removing content like this even iff the members intervene and that would lead to a bigger chaos and lead to his block. I don't want that. What I want is Pks1142 to work under someone's strict guidance because I believe he has no clue regarding the content being written, or removed, and no clue about the policies of editing here. The person would review each and every one of his edits before he adds it to mainspace. Because frankly, WP:COMPETENCE is at stake here I feel. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 12:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- And if this continues even after that, just block him and be done with it. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 12:20, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- ...and you too. Not even willing to follow the WP:DR processes, you become just as responsible (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:24, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I would be happy to accept a block even if after DR this comes back here. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 12:25, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- ...and you too. Not even willing to follow the WP:DR processes, you become just as responsible (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:24, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ok so even Administrators are taking his side.Sir,I would ask you to see my edits,and above phrase does it say anything about promotion.If you see We Found Love article ,it doesn't. Say that Rihanna's team plaannes" " It directly say she performed at various venues.So that's what I'm trying to say.(Pks1142 (talk) 11:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC))
Followup; Pks1142 (talk · contribs) just made a personal attack on that article talk page, referring to another editor as "a mental" (sic) and "idiot". here. I removed it. An admin may wish to warn or block the user. 88.104.4.123 (talk) 19:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC) P.S. Before someone yells "sock!", I have absolutely no involvement with either of the editors, or the article in question; I came across it by reading about the issue right here. 88.104.4.123 (talk) 19:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I was just about to start a thread about it, but it seems this is being dealt already. — ΛΧΣ21™ 19:10, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Westeros7 acts like paid public relations agent
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
All of User: Westeros7's edits form a pattern making it highly probable he/she is a paid public relations agent hired to create puff pieces for companies. The two articles created are GitHub and SignNow. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Why is their talk page a red link? --Onorem♠Dil 14:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Because I can't start a thread here and issue the notice on the user's talk page in the same instant. It should be there now. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- That wasn't my point. I was asking why it's at AN/I before a single attempt to discuss it with them was made. --Onorem♠Dil 14:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Seconded. I just left them a welcome message explaining our policies on COI. Legoktm (talk) 14:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- When I see a polished piece on a highly controversial company appear that has nothing but nice stuff to say, I cannot bring myself to believe the user is unaware of Wikipedia's conflict of interest policy. What do I mean by highly controversial? Well, the California Secretary of State saw fit to issue a Customer Alert for the practice carried out by SignNow, although SignNow is not mentioned by name. Of course the revised alert issued 18 October 2012 mentions that online notarizations are now legal in Virginia. I leave it to those interested to look into the Virginia requirements and compare them to SignNow's procedures. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Seconded. I just left them a welcome message explaining our policies on COI. Legoktm (talk) 14:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- That wasn't my point. I was asking why it's at AN/I before a single attempt to discuss it with them was made. --Onorem♠Dil 14:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Because I can't start a thread here and issue the notice on the user's talk page in the same instant. It should be there now. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Their edits to GitHub look just fine to me. Haven't checked the other articles though. Legoktm (talk) 14:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Being a paid editor is not against policy, nor is editing with a conflict of interest. There have been a number of discussions and an RfC on the issue and the community has been very loud in saying they do not want editors blocked solely for being paid. Spamming is against policy, but the proper response at this stage would be to either CSD or AFD the articles and first let the editors at AFD determine if their contributions are really not worthwhile. Since we can't block solely for being paid or having a COI, this ANI is premature. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
RfC Notice
Given that there are apparently some strong feelings both ways with respect to blanking of talk pages, an RFC has been initiated at Wikipedia talk:User pages#RFC: Concerning banned and indeffed users to establish consensus. --Nouniquenames 19:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
User North8000 disruptive talk page editing at talk:Homophobia
For the past year, user North8000 (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive, tendentious discussions at the Homophobia article talk page. His 266 talk page contributions have consisted of mostly of claims that the article is poorly written, biased and that corrective edits to the article are being prevented by a "trio of editors". Notably North8000 has made exactly four edits to the article, consisting of reversions, restoration of reverted content and very minor edits.
His main argument boils down to the proposition that there are two etymological definitions to the term homophobia, and that the Wikipedia article is written to give undue weigh to one definition and is therefore a "POV mess". In his own words, "The core of the problem is that 80% of the article categorically calls ALL opposition to homosexuality "homophobia". When it does that it it uses only one of the definitions and pretends that the other does not exist. And, as such, the 80% weighs in on one side of the controversy." He has been asked repeatedly to provide sources to support his argument, or to simply edit the article, which he has agreed to do, but has consistently failed to follow through on. Instead he repeats the same argument, ad nauseum.
North8000's first talk page post at the Homophobia article on November 27, 2011 was titled "This article is a confusing POV & synthesis mess by blending in off-topic item" and the post started with "What a mess!"
North8000 has repeatedly accused a "trio of editors" (presumably Jenova20, Dominus Vobisdu and Rivertorch) of conspiratorially preventing the article from being fixed. He has repeatedly made the same arguments that have been refuted by many other editors. The pattern then turns to accusations of blocking and chasing editors away.
Examples of accusations (emphasis added)
- "...multitude of people who bring it up get ganged up on and chased away, one by one" (he later apologized)
- "POV tactic straight out of one of the activists training session"
- Well, the "big job" here is that there is a group of editors who LIKES that this article is badly POV'd, that it carries the torch for one side of the controversy, and that it states the view of one side of the controversy as fact
- "...a group has simply harangued / intimidated away the people who make the point or used the "double standard" approach that I described to prevent resolution."
- "The group here has been evading this topic, misstating it, and camouflaging it with a variety of insults, and even saying that sourcing is required to challenge the lack of sourcing."
- "Of course, the trio here missed the third alternative when the same problem has been noted by an immense number of people for the entire history of the article which is to start listening."
- "Just because the trio that likes it as-is has so-far managed to keep it that way does not make what is contained in that wide-ranging feedback a "dead horse". The only dead horse is thinking that any one of the trio would be swayed from their quest by any argument or sourcing."
- "As such, it is being held up by minority activists, who are puppy-guarding a page which directly relates to their motives."
- "When folks responses go beyond disagreement into dirty pool tactics, as they continually have done here from the trio..."
- "As per the tactics that the trio has continuously used here, you have just completely mis-stated what I said."
- "No, an immense number of people have said the same thing about the article, and the trio keeps running them all off."
- "And no, what I said it hasn't gained traction with the POV trio that has been blockading the fix."
- "Of course the same group that blew them off and/or chased them away is not going to be convinced to fix it."
- "An immense number of people have pointed out the problems with this article, but a trio who likes its current POV has delayed repair by chasing them away one by one, and embedding their argument in the header."
- "There are things to be learned when a certain small group of people repetitively make false accusations and re-directs and avoid discussing the actual points of the conversation."
A pattern that has also been observed is that North8000 waits until a troll or an SPA posts a rant about the article, and then joins in the discussion, reopening the same arguments as before. Most times, he agrees to edit the article with sources, and then fades away, having taken no actual action to improve the article. Lather, rinse, repeat. Examples: [47] [48] [49] [50]
Warnings (from different editors)
Several editors have asked North8000 to stop the forum talk and edit the article, or move on. He has been formally warned on his talk page twice.
- March 20, 2012: North8000 was warned about disrupting the Homophobia talk page by Seb az86556
- June 18, 2012: "This is becoming disruptive, and it really needs to stop now. Please." by Rivertorch
- June 21, 2012: "Frankly after 3 months this is just disruptive and using the talk page as a forum." by Jenova20
- June 22, 2012: "Next stop is administrator support, this has been going on too long." by Insomesia
- November 11, 2012: I gave him a final warning to stop the disruptive talk page editing behavior. Even after this warning, North8000 persisted in disrupting the article talk page with the same recrudescent arguments, complaints and accusations. It is evident that he does not see this behavior as disruptive, in spite of being told so by no less than ten other editors. He has steadfastly rejected all efforts by the community to curtail his disruptive behavior.
While I believe that North8000's contribution history reflects a sincere interest in improving the encyclopedia, he has clearly exhausted the patience of the community at the Homophobia talk page. These are text book examples of WP:IDHT, WP:WINNING, WP:NOTFORUM and WP:DEADHORSE. I recommend at minimum a permanent article ban, or possibly a topic ban, to protect the article talk page and restore a collegial editing environment. This will free North8000 to redirect his efforts to areas where he can contribute in a productive and non-disruptive fashion. - MrX 16:10, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I'd like a topic ban. North has a bias on homosexuality articles and was a problematic editor on straight pride with this same kind of thing if memory serves me correct. He believes the use of the word homophobia is used incorrectly in the article as it's not a real phobia (from past discussions on that talk page) and yet he never made the same arguments towards islamophobia or xenophobia. My assessment after so long is that he's too biased to edit the lgbt articles neutrally and his editing has been long since overtaken by talk page editing, instead of actual editing. Perfect example of his lack of neutrality, he's stated multiple times he wants the article renamed to Opposition to homosexuality, neutral or Wp:Commonname? no. He's just disrupting the talk page. I believe he needs a topic ban so that posting on the homophobia talk page on a daily basis is no longer a necessity for him or an issue for me and the 6+ other editors who end up replying to him with the same thing over and over...and over. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 20:12, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't really know what to do with North at this point. He has his own opinion on what homophobia is and how the article should be written, but doesn't present the sources to back up his opinion, instead spending his time complaining on the talk page. It really has gotten disruptive after months and tons of conversations on the same exact thing over and over. SilverserenC 20:16, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban, or at the very least page ban. North8000 is effectively the reasonable face of the various SPAs, shouty IPs ("this article is BIASED!!11!!") and even established editors with extreme views on homosexuality [51] [52]. He's made 265 edits to the talk page and hasn't come up with a single useful, policy-compliant suggestion for changing the article. Frankly every editor involved with the page is sick of having their time wasted by him - it is time that it stopped. Black Kite (talk) 20:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban on all LGBTI topics, very broadly construed, anywhere on WP, including article and user talk pages in addition to article space. This is by far the longest dead horse argument I've seen in WP, with 266 posts stretching over a period of one year now, with no sign that he ever intends to stop. It is also not the only such months-long filibuster he has waged, having done so also on the article on Intelligent Design, though he finally dropped that stick. This is clearly disruptive and tendentious behavior, and has consumed countless hours of valuable editor time. His vague questions and concerns have been patiently addressed by me and numerous other editors many times over, but apparently not finding them to his liking, he has made numerous accusations of bad faith against a vague group of editors. He has been warned many, many, many times that he is abusing the talk page as a soapbox, but he absolutely refuses to listen. In the last two days or so, ten editors expressed agreement on the article talk page that he was being disruptive (see here: [[53]]. Because of the considerable amount of editor time that this editor has wasted with his relentless filibustering and the fact that he has made editing on WP a very unpleasant and trying experience for his fellow editors, because he fails to treat them with respect and civility, and because he shows absolutely no sign of improving or at least stopping his disruptive behavior after six months, I have to conclude that this editor is a net liability to the project. Frankly, I would also support a community ban at this point, if it were proposed. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support page ban, at least. I haven't seen evidence of their intractableness elsewhere although it may exist. I gave up after many months of trying to see what reliable sources North8000 could be utilizing for their views. They were never forthcoming after many requests. I'm still open to Wikipedia-compliant changes to the article but instead it does seem North8000 would foment an argument until everyone else gave up, and then another SPA would pop up and off to the races with the same old discussion that had been long resolved as going nowhere. The FAQ on the page was created solely to address North8000's ongoing campaign. The archive counter is off, here is a link to see discussion that they've prompted starting in 2011. I think whatever point they wanted to make has come and gone with little evidence of the idea(s) taking hold. This has been explained many times over by many editors, some bluntly and some quite patiently, to little or no effect. Many hints at page and topic bans have been suggested and I don't think anyone was hoping it would get to this point but here we are. They may have very positive contributions elsewhere but this really has stalled any productive discussions on that talkpage and I don't think it's fair. Insomesia (talk) 21:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support page ban or topic ban relating to homophobia. With regret, because I believe the user is a good-faith contributor on other topics, I must support a ban. Just to emphasize, this is not a content dispute—there are no article-space edits at issue—but a behavioral matter, a classic case of WP:IDHT and refusal to stand down and accept consensus. A multitude of editors, from longtime admins to newbies, have made innumerable efforts to engage constructively with the user at Talk:Homophobia and at his user page, to no avail. His response is typically to describe what's being said to him as "crap", lie low for a few weeks, and then reëmerge (frequently in company with an IP or new SPA) with the exact same tendatious arguments that have been refuted time and time again. Outside opinions have been sought at two separate noticeboards (I don't have diffs handy and am in a rush, sorry—I think they were at WP:NORN and WP:NPOVN Added: wait, here's one) with the same result: North's argument gains no traction but he refuses to accept that. I made several serious efforts to try to resolve the situation, including this discussion on his talk page, but in the end, no dice. At this point, the disruption has become mind-numbing and beyond wearisome, and it needs to stop. Rivertorch (talk) 21:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Opposed to topic ban. I was left a notice that this topic was under discussion. I do not now watch the Homophobia page, though I may have in the past. Couldn't find my edits with a cursory search. I have not noticed North8000 behavior on other related articles. If it had been bad, I think I would have noticed. I had no idea you could vote an editor you didn't like off an article page. I thought you had to go first through mediation, then arbitration, both rather time-consuming. Interesting information. I will have to remember that.
- I will have to leave it up to other editors whether to vote him off the article page. "Topic" seems too general as "topics" pop up everyplace: demographics in place articles, for Pete's sake! "Topic" just seems too broad IMO.
- I would like to point out that the LGBT Project is extremely active, perhaps the only really active project in the English Wikipedia. There are few articles in which the topic of LGBT hasn't been raised. Are there other voices of dissent left in that article? Someone who is heterosexual should be watching the content IMO. Most people (and most readers) are not LGBT. This is not WikiLGBT! Student7 (talk) 21:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Just saw this garbage. If you think those who disagree with North are all homosexual, you are very, very wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- "There are few articles in which the topic of LGBT hasn't been raised."???? Out of the four million plus articles on Wikipedia, the topic has been raised in a tiny minority of them. Or didn't you mean that? I am bewildered as to what you did mean. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support article ban including the talk page. No reason exists at this time (or has been demonstrated here) for a wider topic ban. little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer 21:27, 16 November 2012 (UTC) - Support topic ban on all LGBT related articles - clear agenda here. GiantSnowman 21:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I have just seen this. The above spins/misrepresents the situaition. A careful couple reads of the talk page history would dispel it and show that a boomerang is most appropriate. But the talk page is lengthy and not many are ready to do that. So it is going to take me at least an hour of work to prepare a summary of the relevant aspects of this, an hour which I won't have until tomorrow and even that will be a struggle. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban What the first three people have said. Also, for his namechange to succeed, someone would have to come up with a new word that used neither "homo" or "phobia" and yet convey the meaning of both, which is frankly impossible. The rest is nonsense that I would like to see go away. --Auric 21:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Question: When everyone is calling for a topic ban, would this include everything the LGBT project decides to stick a banner on? My concern here is that the project has been a little, um liberal, in some of the articles they believe are theirs, especially some of the BLP articles. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- As one of the editors that voted for the topic ban and strongly supports it, I would even more strongly oppose using the LGBT project banner as a criterion. Projects often use whimsical criteria on which articles to include or not. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Of course we wouldn't take the fact that someone chooses to "stick a banner on" a page as being a criterion. We would take the criterion as being that the page, or North8000's contribution, or both, actually deals with the topic. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Let's not rush to judgement until we hear what North has to say. If, as alleged, the problem has been around for a year, another day or so doesn't matter. Leaky Caldron 21:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I hate AN/I Unfortunately, the AN/I process allows all kinds of nasty, unsupported allegations to be thrown at the target, in such volume that the subject cannot possibly respond to all of them. It's a forum where editors wanting another editor silenced, for political reasons or just disagreement, can go with the majority and create an online lynch mob. Yes, I've been the victim of such a process, and yes, I've changed my approach, but not because the AN/I process convinced me I was wrong. I've done it because I saw that the bigots here had a lot of power under this umbrella, so long as they are on the side of a majority opinion. We must be very careful to not let that happen here. Having said that, North8000 does appear to have a problem of perspective. We must note that he is not alone in his view. I think it is wrong, and have told him so. I don't think he sees me as part of "the group", and certainly not part of "the trio". Unfortunately, my comments have also been to no avail. What I hope can come out of this process is that, now that the issue has been brought to the attention of editors not previously involved, someone (more than one ideally) at a responsible level can talk to North, perhaps away from this thread, convince him of their impartiality, and politely point out the problem with what he is doing. HiLo48 (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- A nice idea, but, I'm afraid, unrealistic. Numerous people have "talk[ed] to North ... and politely point[ed] out the problem with what he is doing" over the course of many months. He/she has never taken in what has been said, and I see no reason to suppose that he/she will suddenly do so because yet one more person does so. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. Editor has worn out his welcome, taking productivity away from other editors. He has refused to relent, so the community must now act. Binksternet (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban - Seems to me his only crime here is accusing three editors of working collectively as a pro-LGBT group. Those sort of accusations are not abnormal on political or LGBT topic areas on either side. It seems to me this is a retaliation or response by those group of editors, who clearly resent North's opinion and views on them and the page; all three have formed a bloc here supporting his topic banning, but whether they want him removed for legitimate disruption or because he disagrees with them is really not certain to me. I'm not assuming bad faith on their part, but I can't say for certain this is isn't a move to get rid of an enemy. Banning North from commenting on the talk when he has clearly shown restraint from editing the article itself seems a bit unusual to me, but I await his explanation for his actions and views on the page. Toa Nidhiki05 21:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, his accusations alone are not the problem. That would be a one off, and everyone could move on. The problem is North's persistence over a very long period, in the face of pretty strong but polite opposition, and the demands he places on those other polite editors of repeating responses uncountable times. HiLo48 (talk) 22:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Making accusations against other editors on talk pages is disruptive and reason for a block. While unfounded accusations are always wrong, even ones made with good grounds should only be made in the appropriate fora, e.g., here at ANI. Battleground tactics are strongly discouraged. TFD (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - In case anyone is wondering, I notified the involved editors who interacted with North8000 on the Homophobia article talk page. If anyone is aware of anyone that I missed, please notify them as well. - MrX 21:56, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support LGBT topic ban Seems that North8000 is unable to contribute constructively to the article and therefore nothing is lost in a topic ban, and it will enable other editors to work towards improvement. A topic ban, rather than a ban on this specific article, is advisable, because otherwise this editor could just move to another article with the topic. TFD (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose per Toa Nidhiki05. The quotes do not appear to be disruptive from an outside perspective. This seems to me to be three editors retaliating because their preferred POV is being challenged. Since the Fae overuse of Homophobia for any of his critics, I am hesitant to support anymore labeling of that sort or topic banning because folks do not like criticism. The only thing North8000 is accused of above is in believing there is a cabal. Annoying? Always. Disruptive? Perhaps. Altogether topic ban worthy? Not in my opinion. However, I strongly recommend North8000 present hard policy based changes with supporting reliable sources quickly before this goes to Arbcom.--v/r - TP 22:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Since the Fae overuse of Homophobia for any of his critics, I am hesitant to support anymore labeling of that sort or topic banning because folks do not like criticism.' - wow, just wow. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- FWIW. It's never been North8000 vs. "The unnamed trio". There is a growing list of editors that have had the same unproductive interactions and North8000 has done blanket accusations against all. I thought I was a part of the trio but I have no idea if I ever was or not. North8000 has been asked time and time again for any supporting reliable sources for the changes they seek. Instead it turns into meta discussions, again and again, despite quite reasonable efforts to solicit specific actionable edits/changes to the article. Insomesia (talk) 22:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Fwiw, I think I was misidentified as part of the "trio". Feel free to take my place! Rivertorch (talk) 06:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe, but it's not supported by the diffs above. What is supported is that North8000 has been throwing around accusations of POV and a cabal. Given the topic, I'm not about to support a topic ban. The Fae issues are my reasoning. Fae called all of his critics homophobes and wanted them silenced. I am concerned this is more of that same attitude and until I see stronger diffs, I'm going to be cautious. If this were an WP:RFC/U, I might endorse a summary that required North8000 show his cards; if any. But I am concerned because we're in a topic area where folks will hold their tongues for fear of offending others.--v/r - TP 22:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- What is "Fae"? HiLo48 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Presumably they're talking about User:Fæ. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:31, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It seems pretty pointless bringing up a banned user here. I've never heard of him/her. Not everyone else will have either. The sins of someone else should be irrelevant to an independent hearing for North here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- You may be right. But you asked. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- "is an insult to many gay and non-gay people who use it" This is why I oppose. Criticism is not an insult. Until the folks involved realize that, I'm not going to support a topic ban against one of their critics.--v/r - TP 01:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Why are so many comments here so shallow? There's only two simple things to think about, and so many editors can't get past one. It's not just the fact that he is critical that's the problem. It's the fact that he has been doing it for nearly a year, despite repeated, very polite rejection of his view. HiLo48 (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ya'all haven't shown anything other than he believes there is a cabal. Now, when that cabal, whether it really is one or not, suddenly comes out in force to ask that the community endorse his silence, I get cautious. If you want to show that he is making accusations of a cabal, ok, but show evidence of other disruptive behavior as well. Since you haven't, I don't think it's the communities responsibility to do the digging. I'm not seeing why that's shallow, nor am I seeing why it's helpful to call 'so many comments' shallow. It's certainly not convincing me to your argument. In fact, it strengthens mine. Is this what your discussions with North8000 has consisted of? If so, perhaps you should be topic banned.--v/r - TP 13:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Why are so many comments here so shallow? There's only two simple things to think about, and so many editors can't get past one. It's not just the fact that he is critical that's the problem. It's the fact that he has been doing it for nearly a year, despite repeated, very polite rejection of his view. HiLo48 (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- "is an insult to many gay and non-gay people who use it" This is why I oppose. Criticism is not an insult. Until the folks involved realize that, I'm not going to support a topic ban against one of their critics.--v/r - TP 01:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- You may be right. But you asked. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It seems pretty pointless bringing up a banned user here. I've never heard of him/her. Not everyone else will have either. The sins of someone else should be irrelevant to an independent hearing for North here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Presumably they're talking about User:Fæ. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:31, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- What is "Fae"? HiLo48 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe, but it's not supported by the diffs above. What is supported is that North8000 has been throwing around accusations of POV and a cabal. Given the topic, I'm not about to support a topic ban. The Fae issues are my reasoning. Fae called all of his critics homophobes and wanted them silenced. I am concerned this is more of that same attitude and until I see stronger diffs, I'm going to be cautious. If this were an WP:RFC/U, I might endorse a summary that required North8000 show his cards; if any. But I am concerned because we're in a topic area where folks will hold their tongues for fear of offending others.--v/r - TP 22:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. North means well, but he simply isn't making constructive contributions in this area. Disagreeing with consensus is not a problem, but pushing the same issue for months and months starts to become disruptive. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:07, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support article ban and/or topic ban. WP:DEADHORSE and WP:LISTEN, etc. to the point where I've stopped participating widely in discussions for quite some time. Repeating yourself isn't productive, nor fun. North8000 has apparently brought forth the same perceived issue for 1/3 of one year. User Toa is mistaken. North's disruption is in main part regarding the definition of homophobia and his edits. Though, I would think the WP:NOTFORUM discussions are not productive either. But, I don't believe North is a terrible person simply because he hasn't moved a discussion forward. Teammm talk
email 22:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC) - not quite support I think he's wasting his time on this article because it has been owned by the LGBT project for years and always will be. Therefore while I suppose in some sense his resistance can be called disruptive, and I'm unwilling to read through everything to determine for myself exactly how well-grounded his complaints are, I cannot endorse the principle that one very POV-organized project can use AN/I to defend the editing of their topics from outside criticism. Mangoe (talk) 22:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- What's this "owned by the LGBT project" claim all about? That reads at least as badly as North's accusations about the terrible trio here. Appalling generalisations like that never help these discussions. HiLo48 (talk) 00:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Mangoe, you say "I'm unwilling to read through everything to determine for myself exactly how well-grounded his complaints are". Unfortunately, your comments confirm that you have not read through the relevant background, and so don't know what the issues are. (This kind of thing is one of the reasons I usually avoid AN/I like the plague: people who make often strongly opinionated comments without first finding out what the issues are.) This stuff about being "owned by the LGBT project" is nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, you really have missed the point if you think that this is a question of trying to defend the editing of a topic from outside criticism. It is a question of one editor who has been persistently disruptive, making literally hundreds of posts all plugging the same point of view, over a very prolonged period, long after it has become clear that he/she is flying in the face of consensus. And taht consensus is not just from "one very POV-organized project": I, for example, have absolutely zero connection to the "LGBT project", but I once, months ago, tried to help this editor to understand what the problems with his/her editing were, but to no avail. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose ban. As an uninvolved editor, we need to hear from North8000, or a week goes by. If there is no defense within a week, or if the defense is weak, then I would support warning the editor. Until now, as far as I can tell, he has only received warnings from involved individuals who he understandably chose to ignore. An official consensus-supported warning from the community should precede an actual ban in such a case, and only after he has had a reasonable chance to tell his side. The apparent willingness here to article or topic ban someone without such a warning is worrisome. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- "After he has had a reasonable chance to tell his side"? He/she has been telling his/her side for 6 months. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support article ban, I've watched and occasionally contributed at that page for some years, and this is an unprecedented bludgeoning of the already-pulped equine. William Avery (talk) 22:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I have just seen this. The above spins/misrepresents the situation. A careful couple reads of the talk page history would dispel it and show that a boomerang is most appropriate. But the talk page is lengthy and not many are ready to do that. So it is going to take me at least an hour of work to prepare a summary of the relevant aspects of this, an hour which I won't have until tomorrow and even that will be a struggle. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- There is no need to repost this. We all saw it and it misrepresents all the comments that came in after you posted it. Insomesia (talk) 23:00, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Been at it since March. Still doesn't get what the issue is. Keeps ranting. Narrow topic ban is indeed appropriate. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 23:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support talk page ban. This is kind of backwards from what we normally so -- that is, ban editing the article but allow commenting on the talk page -- but I'd be in favor of banning N8000 from the talk page, unless he is commenting on or responding to comments on his own edits to the article. This would encourage him to edit the article to correct the problems he sees, and, of course, those edits would be subject to the usual restrictions on OR, RS etc. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. At least for now. Only 4 edits? That means he's not edit-warring, he's talking - at significant length. So others don't like his opinions? Well, the word "homophobia" literally means "fear of 'same'", shorthand for "fear of homosexuality". However, the gay movement has hijacked the term for political purposes, to claim that any opposition to homosexuality is based on "fear" rather than on reason. But like it or not, it's in common usage. There's no getting around that fact. So, North simply needs to face the reality that, even though his argument is etymologically "true", common usage trumps the "truth". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:59, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- A very poor post. What the word literally means is irrelevant in the English language. And to say that the word has been hijacked by the gay movement is an insult to many gay and non-gay people who use it. And the issue not just a disagreement over opinion. It's North's repetition of that disagreement on the article's Talk page for month after month after month. It's amazing that others have remained polite to him for so long. HiLo48 (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Your ignorance of English is not my problem. Meanwhile... Yes, he needs to resign himself to the fact he's not going to win the argument, even though he's got etymology on his side. That's the way it is here, sometimes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Of course. We all know that xenophobic people run away and hide at the sight of furriners.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 00:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Or they shoot at them. Xenophobia... fear of foreigners. It works. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Bugs - I am well aware of the claimed etymology of the word, but seeming etymology has little to do with current meaning of multitudes of English words. This page is a notice board. That doesn't mean it is a flat piece of timber. HiLo48 (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- HiLo48 id right, Bugs. The "appeal to etymology" is specious. The classic case of this is claiming that, by definition antisemitism refers to hostility to all Semitic people. If I'm anti-Maltese or anti-Ethiopian, am I being antisemitic? No, because that's simply not what the word means.--Shirt58 (talk) 01:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. It's a fact that words, especially those that are little used, are constantly repurposed in English to suit the requirements of its various speakers; but in this particular case, where the users doing the repurposing are homosexuals and they are looking for a word to describe a widely acknowledged social prejudice, people like Bugs have resort to such vocabulary as 'hijack'. Part of the culture war is that homosexuals (a very 1950s word) are simply not to be allowed a word to articulate their grievance, even when the usage is half a century old, and entered into respected dictionaries. I'm old enough to remember when the word in dispute was 'gay'. ('Gay' might be normal, "homosexual" is a pathological state, no?). Anyway, the LGBT community has for a long time looked for a word to describe people and beliefs that it regards as problematic, and why should it not? Can any such usage be allowed to exist? Well, I can see that the other side get antsy when a pseudoscience term ('homophobic') gets pinned on them. Many happy returns, and a pinch and a punch for the n'th of the month and all that. William Avery (talk) 02:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- The terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are formal terms. The terms "gay" and "straight" are colloquial terms. A term "something-phobic" means "fearful of-something" to my educated ears. So they're looking for a label, and they think that abusing the word "homophobic" is good because they can't think of anything better? It being a culture war, how about "enemy"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is not only homosexual people who use the word homophobia to describe negative attitudes towards homosexual people. That actually seems a quite bigoted attitude. And again, the etymology is irrelevant. HiLo48 (talk) 05:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's not irrelevant. And funny you should use that word "bigoted", since that's what I call the ones you call "homophobic". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Etymology IS irrelevant, because we are not discussing this on a flat piece of wood. HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Now you're going against the grain. You're in a splinter group. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Etymology IS irrelevant, because we are not discussing this on a flat piece of wood. HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's not irrelevant. And funny you should use that word "bigoted", since that's what I call the ones you call "homophobic". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is not only homosexual people who use the word homophobia to describe negative attitudes towards homosexual people. That actually seems a quite bigoted attitude. And again, the etymology is irrelevant. HiLo48 (talk) 05:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- The terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are formal terms. The terms "gay" and "straight" are colloquial terms. A term "something-phobic" means "fearful of-something" to my educated ears. So they're looking for a label, and they think that abusing the word "homophobic" is good because they can't think of anything better? It being a culture war, how about "enemy"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Of course. We all know that xenophobic people run away and hide at the sight of furriners.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 00:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Your ignorance of English is not my problem. Meanwhile... Yes, he needs to resign himself to the fact he's not going to win the argument, even though he's got etymology on his side. That's the way it is here, sometimes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- A very poor post. What the word literally means is irrelevant in the English language. And to say that the word has been hijacked by the gay movement is an insult to many gay and non-gay people who use it. And the issue not just a disagreement over opinion. It's North's repetition of that disagreement on the article's Talk page for month after month after month. It's amazing that others have remained polite to him for so long. HiLo48 (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose after reading the 10 pages of archived talk (which was necessary, because the archives could charitably be called "fucked up") I see no valid reason for a topic ban. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 00:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support article ban and/or topic ban. Yeah, the line into tendentiousness has been crossed. Time to step away from the horse. —chaos5023 (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support kicking this joker to the curb. Reading through all those talk page comments is no different from the reams of crap from the likes of Grundle2600 at Barack Obama-related articles over the years. Sooner or later you just have to cut your losses and pry the crazies away from the topic that they obsess isn't Telling It Like It Is(tm). Tarc (talk) 00:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support. Basically his participation to the talk page is a promotion of his own views on the topic with hardly any references to reliable sources beyond some dictionaries. On Wikipedia that is (loftily) called WP:OR. Noth8000 keeps saying that 80% of the article is misusing the term, but provided no sources to back up his view that such-and-such topic is contested by some reliable source as properly falling under the homophobia umbrella. Nor has he disputed the reliability of any sources used in the article. His participation was just WP:SOAP. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - I haven't read it all but I have read quite a few discussions from different time periods. Topic ban is ridiculous as it's confined to one article. Regarding a ban from that article, he makes well reasoned points and it's not trolling or vandalism. Whether his points have enough merit to change the article needs to be decided by a wider consensus than just people from the LGBT Project. If that consensus is against him and the talk page discussions are continued to an excessive extent, then I'd support a page ban. Zaalbar (talk) 01:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support Indefinite
ArticleArticle Talk Page Ban As per Shirt58. The user's clearly being disruptive and isn't responding well to consensus. He may have some kind of bias, but he isn't causing problems as far as I saw outside of this single page, so for now at least, a topic ban is unwarranted. I think forcing him to take a break from this tendentiousness might do him some good as an editor, and certainly would benefit Wikipedia as a whole. Coppaar (talk) 02:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, there’s always the "Reichstag Corollary to consensus", which is good to remember and meditate upon: To the same extent that ‘consensus’ is obtained by means of ejecting all the dissenting parties from the discussion, it ought to be questioned how much it can be termed a true ‘consensus’. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose and second User:Mangoe's reasons - also seems overly punitive of dissenting opinion on talkpage discussion, based only on opponents' point-of-view, which is not how wp works in most other areas, or is supposed to ideally work. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support article talk-page ban only.
- Title of this thread is "User North8000 disruptive talk page editing at talk:Homophobia".
- North8000 has been disruptively editing at talk:Homophobia.
- Talk-page ban for North8000 at talk:Homophobia solves this problem.
- Anything else is superfluous to solving this problem. I've said my piece about why it's a problem above. --Shirt58 (talk) 02:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Strong support of broad LGBT topic ban across the entire encyclopedia. Talk:Homophobia isn't the only place where this problem has occurred, and I've previously raised the issue about his edit warring/tag teaming on homosexual agenda and other articles. User:North8000 has made 266 edits to the homophobia talk page for approximately one year, consisting of a single, tendentious argument to redefine homophobia. North's argument is no different than those of IP's on the racism and antisemitism pages who say people should be allowed to dislike and oppose non-whites and Jews because of the color of their skin and their religion without being labeled racists or antisemites. He should not be allowed anywhere near LGBT articles or their talk pages since he has shown no interest in improving them. Viriditas (talk) 02:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- You have some gall stating what his intentions are. Whatever happened to WP:GOODFAITH? Accusing him of tag-teaming? Funny, because a quick glance of the archives seems to imply the opposite. His goal isn't to redefine "homophobia." It's to crate a fair and balanced page without a bias towards the LGBT movement. —Maktesh (talk) 06:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - I think TParis said it better than I could, but I concur with his reasoning (minus the Fae bit, which I have limited knowledge of and no opinion). While the accusations are a concern, I don't think that warrants a topic ban; I don't see that solving the accusations. I think that needs to be addressed, a topic ban isn't the way to do that. I'm not saying his arguments have merit, but I don't think an editor should be topic banned for being wrong. - SudoGhost 02:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- The ban doesn't have anything to do with them being right or wrong. It's due to the tendentious nature of beating a dead horse after many discussions have gone nowhere and absolutely no reliable sources have been presented to defend some rather fringe opinions. The editors there have been waiting for collegial editing to appear. Insomesia (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- 'Oppose - as per ‘consensus’ is obtained by means of ejecting all the dissenting parties from the discussion, it ought to be questioned how much it can be termed a true ‘consensus’. From my experience of such wiki articles, North's concerns are highly likely to be correct - Youreallycan 03:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- "likely"? Have you actually extended us the courtesy of reading the whole fucking farrago? William Avery (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hope I'm counting correctly: we're at 19-11. Not a vote, of course. Drmies (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- If there's a long term issue with an editor we should be doing an RFC/U, not an ANI. NE Ent 04:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - I agree with Zaalbarand and Toa Nidhiki05. As one who's been involved with the discussion, I can vouch for North8000. He is simply calling out a problem, and challenging a page where the development has been stonewalled by LGBT activist users. If anything, they should be under review as well. Even bringing the discussion to this point is improper. They are continually attempting to silence a legitimate editor, and are even willing to stoop to this level? Shameful. —Maktesh (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I hate AN/I - Part 2 That's yet another post that proves why. It tells us that those opposing North are "LGBT activist users". Sorry. Wrong. And I've already pointed it out several times. I have opposed North. I am not gay, nor LGBT in any way at all. It's name calling, and /or incompetent editing. On top of this, we've had many posts saying that disagreeing is not a reportable offence, so North has done nothing wrong. These posts ignore the massively complex (that's sarcasm folks) double point of the report. It's not just disagreement. It's repeating the same refuted point over, and over, and over again, for almost a year. Yes, it's got two layers to it, but was that really too hard to understand? And, the name calling from North about "the trio" was also described as part of the problem. But I guess someone who feels it's OK to incorrectly lay all the blame at the feet of "LGBT activist users" won't comprehend this point. In other words, there's a lot of illogical, name calling, incompetent posts here. This is not a rational discussion. North's worst friends are some of those trying to support him here. I HATE AN/I. HiLo48 (talk) 06:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Whether you are homosexual or not I don't care - but you have since the very beginning of your editing contributions had a focus on homosexuality - diff from three years ago - Youreallycan 06:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dude, you should talk. You got 37 editors endorsing Dominus Vobisdu's observation that your Wikipedia contributions are highly homophobic. You have some nerve to point to "a focus on homosexuality" in another editor. Binksternet (talk) 07:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dominus Vobisdu contributions - You Binksternet also have a massive homosexual edit focus - Youreallycan 07:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Gay baiting? What an incredibly ignorant comment. Gay people are human beings and have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, and even sons, daughters, and friends. There are a million reasons why HiLo48, Dominus Vobisdu, Binksternet and others commented on a topic about homosexuality, none of which remotely involve them being gay. On the other hand Youreallycan, your very first edits as a Wikipedian were to praise and promote the teachings of Osho,[54][55], a man who believed that homosexuals should not be considered human beings. Using Youreallycan logic, should we also assume that because your very first contributions were to Osho, that you also believe that homosexuals are not human beings? You certainly tried to cover it up. Viriditas (talk) 07:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dominus Vobisdu contributions - You Binksternet also have a massive homosexual edit focus - Youreallycan 07:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dude, you should talk. You got 37 editors endorsing Dominus Vobisdu's observation that your Wikipedia contributions are highly homophobic. You have some nerve to point to "a focus on homosexuality" in another editor. Binksternet (talk) 07:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Whether you are homosexual or not I don't care - but you have since the very beginning of your editing contributions had a focus on homosexuality - diff from three years ago - Youreallycan 06:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. This is why I avoid ANI like the plague: discussions mushroom from their original scope to encompass everything but the kitchen sink, and if there's any opportunity to cast unfounded aspersions, someone invariably steps up to the plate. There is an incredible amount of baseless (gropes for polite word) nonsense occupying space in this thread. Yes, there are LGBT editors who watch Homophobia—no surprise. That's entirely appropriate, and I am one of them. Yes, there are members of WikiProject LGBT Studies who watch the page—also no surprise. That's also entirely appropriate, although I'm not one of them. Pardon me for rolling my eyes (incivilly, no doubt) at the thought—implied in several posts above—that the motives of LGBT editors or WikiProject members is somehow suspect by virtue of users' identities or affiliations. It's an ugly implication, and it's one we've seen at ANI before.
Focus, please. At the risk of repeating myself, this complaint (which I played no role in filing, although I confess the thought of doing so had crossed my mind) has nothing to do with the content of Homophobia, nothing to do with any article content whatsoever, nothing to do with the concept of homophobia or the etymology of the word, nothing to do with cabals or trios or WP:Ownership or silencing those with opposing views. It also has fuck-all to do with desysopped editors with three-letter usernames beginning with 'F'. It's very, very simple, and it goes like this: Over the course of a year, one editor has repeatedly engaged in WP:IDHT behavior on one talk page, and this behavior has continued in the face of countless polite requests to desist. As I said months ago, North is entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to repeat that opinion—right or wrong—ad infinitum; for any editor to do so on any talk page is always disruptive. There are troubling, battleground-ish characteristics to some of his comments that may warrant additional scrutiny, but what's at issue here is really very simple: disruption on one talk page and a request for relief through page ban. End of story, end of rant. Rivertorch (talk) 07:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. The talkpage archiving had a miscue on the counter. Talk:Homophobia/Archive 12 now has the North8000 discussions contained on one page in order for those interested. Insomesia (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. The editor's persistent refusal to drop the stick and accept consensus is extremely disruptive, and is not going to achieve any useful result, no matter how long it continues. Most of the "oppose" comments are based on misunderstandings of what the issues are, such as the mistaken impression that the whole thing is a consiracy by the "LGBT project" to silence anyone who disagrees with them. I, for example, have no connection whatever with that "project", and no particular interest in articles on homosexuality-related issues (or "LGBT-related issues", as political correctness apparently dictates I should call it nowadays), but back in June I tried to explain to the editor what the problems were with the point of view he was pushing. Doing so was a waste of my time, jsut as simialr attempts by other editors have been a waste of their time. Many editors have wasted their time in sincere attempts to communicate with this editor, who is incapable of being communicated with, and persistently fails to hear what they are saying. Enough is enough: we must put a stop to this endless waste of hours of time that other editors could be using to make more constructive contributions to the encyclopaedia. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose topic ban. Silencing the opposition is not right. Seems to me we have 3 editors who are passionate about the homosexual movement and want this guy gone because he doesnt support their political views. The article is a mess. It's a bloody POV and biased mess. Caden cool 10:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- So you are part of the Nazi cabal that supports gassing and lynching fags in public? Awesome. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- What the hell???? Caden cool 10:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- A-ha. I'm glad you're confused or offended. See — that's point you (and others) are missing: We are here for a topic ban, not because North disagrees with people, but because everyone who disagrees with him is part of a cabal, has an agenda, must be gay, hates him personally, and is most definitely insane, doesn't know English, and has the lowest IQ ever. That's the issue. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:37, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Personally attacking me was uncalled for. As for the topic ban, I have said NO. Don't like it? Too bad. Caden cool 10:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- You are supporting personal attacks on others. It's only fair to call you out on that. Don't like it? Too bad. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I am not. You attacked me for having German blood. What's next? You going to start attacking me for my blond hair and blue eyes now?Caden cool 11:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have no idea what your blood is. Nor do I know about your eye color or hair or whatever. What I do know is that you are defending someone who's been launching personal attacks and forum-rants. And now you want to allow that person to continue. If I don't like that it's simply "too bad"? If you don't think personal attacks are OK, what do you suggest should be done about it? Or is it only a concern when someone attacks you? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Personally attacking me was uncalled for. As for the topic ban, I have said NO. Don't like it? Too bad. Caden cool 10:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- A-ha. I'm glad you're confused or offended. See — that's point you (and others) are missing: We are here for a topic ban, not because North disagrees with people, but because everyone who disagrees with him is part of a cabal, has an agenda, must be gay, hates him personally, and is most definitely insane, doesn't know English, and has the lowest IQ ever. That's the issue. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:37, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- What the hell???? Caden cool 10:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- So you are part of the Nazi cabal that supports gassing and lynching fags in public? Awesome. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- How could you have been attacked for having german blood when you have not previously disclosed such a thing. He was making a WP:POINTY point, but it was meant as a point, not as an actual accusation. I think that is quite clear. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Caden, it wasn't a personal attack in context. Seb az86556, you should know by now that invoking Nazi or Hitler in a discussion is never going to make anyone see your point of view. Ever. It has only ever inflamed a discussion and offended the person you are trying to convince. Let's just move on without any more Nazi or Hitler references, ok?--v/r - TP 13:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- How could you have been attacked for having german blood when you have not previously disclosed such a thing. He was making a WP:POINTY point, but it was meant as a point, not as an actual accusation. I think that is quite clear. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment*. I have just removed some of the worst off-topic name-calling. I realise this topic is emotional but there's no need to indulge in a race to the bottom, behaviour-wise. Please keep the discussion on-topic. Ban, or no ban? Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Reverted. People who support personal attacks need to be called out on it; that is very much on topic, since it is the topic. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I profoundly disagree that calling someone a member of a Nazi cabal is a constructive contribution. I won't revert again to remove these comments but the next person on either side of this who uses similar methods of argumentation will get a disruption block from me. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- See comment on my talkpage. You failed. And you're not the only one. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflicts) Ahem. Can we please check the drama at the door, just this once? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556, I take your point, but it's a pointy point. Caden, what's at issue here really has nothing to do with political views; it's about someone who keeps saying the same thing over and over until everyone is sick to death of it. Forget, for a moment, the topic of the article associated with the talk page, and pretend it's the least controversial topic imaginable. Pretend it's Talk:Pistachio, and an editor is making some argument about pistachios, claiming repeatedly that Pistachio needs to be rewritten for some reason—any reason. Nearly everyone watching the page reads the argument, considers it, and disagrees, but the editor keeps making the argument again and again, dismissing other editors' thoughtful replies and just repeating himself over the course of dozens of threads and the better part of a year. That is what this is about—not a content dispute or a battle of ideologies but merely a plain, old-fashioned refusal to drop the stick. Rivertorch (talk) 11:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I profoundly disagree that calling someone a member of a Nazi cabal is a constructive contribution. I won't revert again to remove these comments but the next person on either side of this who uses similar methods of argumentation will get a disruption block from me. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Reverted. People who support personal attacks need to be called out on it; that is very much on topic, since it is the topic. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. I've only started watching the talk page of the homophobia article recently and I've no emotional investment in the article either way. In my opinion, North8000 appears to be a useful editor of other sections of the encyclopedia and I don't think his/her participation on the talk page of the homophobic article is a deliberate effort to be disruptive. While we all have biases, some recognised some not, as editors we should edit articles and participate in article discussions in a way that respects authoritative sources even when these go against our personal view of the world. As stated above, North8000's main point of contention about the article rests upon a rejection of the meaning of the word "homophobia" as used in the article where he/she would wish the article to reflect the literal etymological meaning of the component parts of that compound term. Therefore, he/she argues, the article should cover only aversion to or fear of homosexuality while opposition to homosexuality on grounds that are determined by factors other than explicit fear or aversion should be covered in another article. He/she states explicitly that this is her goal so that people who merely think differently than he/she does about homosexuality (i.e. that is is "wrong") are not labelled as phobic. That may or may not be a supportable position to argue for outside of wikipedia but it ignores the actual wider meaning of the term in contemporary usage and as copiously supported in reliable sources which primarily understand homophobia as a form of discrimination rather than a clinical entity. He/she is mistaken in a normal moral confusion between "ought" and "is". He/she believes the word "ought" to mean one thing so as not to stigmatise opponents of homosexuality while ignoring the actual usage of the term. Over an extended period of time and when presented with reasonable and sourced rationales, he/she has not significantly altered his/her arguments to account for the fact that reliable sources do not support his/her contention of how the term "homophobia" ought to be understood. In fact, North8000 has largely neglected to present reliable and appropriate sources to support his/her interpretation. Instead, in many instances, the talk page has been utilised as a forum to disseminate his/her views on the topic. The argument, such as it is, that he/she has presented has been addressed repeatedly and there is no movement on the issue as the sources do not support it and it is extremely unlikely that the situation is going to change in the near-term. As such, her participation on the talk page is non-productive and a waste of everyone's time. A topic ban will allow everyone, including North8000, to redirect their energies to more useful encyclopedic tasks. As regards the allegation that a "trio of editors" are operating as "cabal", "chasing away" editors who disagree with them, etc, I find this a bad faith allegation that ignores the reasoned and generally civil engagement of those who disagree with North8000's position. Indeed, they've displayed more forbearance than I would have in waiting so long before initiating these proceedings. FiachraByrne (talk) 11:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - well I don't know about the topic ban, but I think that a block for calling someone a Nazi (whether to "make a point" or not) and then edit warring to keep these accusation is probably warranted, and that YRC's accusations about editors having a "focus on homosexuality" are equally unhelpful. Such behavior does nothing to help resolve the situation, and is not acceptable.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Would like to see North's observations but a topic ban is wrong if he's edited the article only 4 times. There is some (to some) very annoying and potentially unacceptable behaviour on the talk page. North needs to address that aspect, especially repeating the "trio" claims. Admin warning and voluntary agreement should be the first step. Leaky Caldron 11:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- But that's exactly the point, though - he's edited the page four times, but the talkpage 265 times, at all times pushing the same argument over and over again, even though it has been rejected by nearly every editor that has visited the page, not just those who are highly active on the page and/or part of the LGBT Project (I, for example, am neither). It is getting to the point that nearly every thread (and yes, I know it's difficult to search, because the archives are seriously fucked up), whatever it's about, gets hijacked by him, making his same argument over and over again and repeatedly attacking other editors there. He doesn't understand that his ideas are being rejected not because there's some sort cabal running the page, but because his ideas are not compatible with Wikipedia policy. It's a perfect example of WP:IDHT and it's a serious time-sink for everyone involved. Whether a topic ban is deserved or not I don't know, but if we don't at least get a talkpage ban from this one article, we are going to be back here again soon. Black Kite (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose As usual, Draconian solutions are not a solution. The editor does not appear to have disrupted the article, and so the concept of a topic ban does not mean it will affect the project one whit. WikiChecker shows the editor with 266 talk page edits, or about 1% of his total edits - which is not an absurd number or percentage. And far less than I have seen other editors make on other talk pages by a large amount. Nor does his record show any super concentration on LGBT issues (heck - not even any concentration on LGBT issues on the past 10,000 edits!). Topic bans for people who are not heavily editing on the topic are simply silly - the guy seems much more interested in folk music than anything else. Thus this is a clear case of attempted over-reaction to something for which a topic ban is not a rational answer in the first place. Collect (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Draconian would be a block, a limited topic ban is not draconian. It's an effective way to deal with a specific issue. If it's not a large amount of the total edits, then it's not too onerous. A much stricter measure would be topic banning someone from a topic they primarily edit. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support The editor is being disruptive on that talk page, repeating the same arguments, making the same points, and making the same accusations of a group conspiracy. Editors can be disruptive purely through talk page posts, and lack of clue in accepting that the consensus disagrees with them. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment I would praise some sort of voluntary "break" by North in that talk page, as that " beating a dead horse" appears to be not more than a waste of time. Over 250 edits, mainly about the same identical point, are a bit too much. On the contrary, to solve his doubts, he could/should raise an eventual RfC about that specific problem. Cavarrone (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Topic ban necessary because he was heavily involved in Straight pride on the talk page too and still doesn't understand the policies: WP:Burden, WP:NPOV or WP:WEIGHT. He has not learned since april this year what they mean and anyone here arguing or voting oppose with misleading arguments or labelling everyone on the homophobia talk page as an LGBT activist needs to stay on topic. North8000 is ignoring multiple policies to push a bias into LGBT articles, including redefining homophobia without presenting a single source and personally attacks those who disagree. He has been warned for 6 months plus yet carried on with his argument, breaching WP:IDHT and WP:STICK in order to accuse a vague group of editors (a "trio") of controlling the article (So add WP:PERSONAL ATTACK) even though there's about 8 people who in fact are regulars to the talk page. I don't even edit Homophobia yet i've had to watchlist the page for so long because of North8000, he's a nightmare and he's too biased to stay on any articles dealing with conflict between LGBT and heterosexuals (Straight Pride and homophobia). I'd support a topic ban just on that area and a reminder to him that this is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox or a forum where he can air his views endlessly without any comback. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 13:00, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
76.169.235.102
76.169.235.102 (talk · contribs) is edit-warring at Blink-182. I have left multiple warnings on the IP's talk page and explained the problems with the edits in my summaries as well as at User talk:IllaZilla#blink-182 EP (the source link the user keeps inserting is a broken link to a social networking site). In return I get lovely responses like "do some research before being arrogant" and "Man what is your fucking problem you cunt?" The IP has also been warned by Legoktm but simply blanks their talk page whenever warnings are issued. Ordinarily I would simply take this to the edit-warring noticeboard but the addition of incivility via the edit summaries adds another layer to the problem. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Okay man I was polite the first couple of times with you but I simply cannot see your logic of why you won't use the official site blink182.com as evidence of an EP? This is such a dumb thing to fight about - I'm simply a dedicated fan trying to update their page with obvious evidence and you are being autocratic with your edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.235.102 (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Their website is already listed on the page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- ?, Not talking about that - I have been trying to edit the blink page with information about their new EP and for some reason this guy is fighting it. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 00:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Even if IllaZilla was wrong to revert citations of random and potentially fake user-uploaded pics on the net as evidence of a new album (instead of actually citing the website), the incivility on the IP's part is wrong. Looking at their website, I don't see anything about a Blink-182 Christmas deal on their website, nor anything about a new album. This is why we take link citations instead of random (and probably fake) screencaps, because links are verifiable. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- ... Why would I fake a screencap hahaha. I cited the correct website but it was taken down because I think Tom DeLonge put it up too early in relation to the other band mates, or some other legal reason (modlife.com/blink182 - which is an official site for many bands). Anyways I give up, I'm just trying to be a good fan but this editing business is way too austere. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I explained on your talk page, I didn't say you necessarily faked a screencap, you could have mistakenly used a screencap someone else faked. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is not a fake, it was up for an hour yesterday and was taken down. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 01:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Then leave it out of the article. If it goes back up, revisit this. Also, you should be blocked for disruption and civility, or lack there of. --Malerooster (talk) 02:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is not a fake, it was up for an hour yesterday and was taken down. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 01:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I explained on your talk page, I didn't say you necessarily faked a screencap, you could have mistakenly used a screencap someone else faked. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- ... Why would I fake a screencap hahaha. I cited the correct website but it was taken down because I think Tom DeLonge put it up too early in relation to the other band mates, or some other legal reason (modlife.com/blink182 - which is an official site for many bands). Anyways I give up, I'm just trying to be a good fan but this editing business is way too austere. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Even if IllaZilla was wrong to revert citations of random and potentially fake user-uploaded pics on the net as evidence of a new album (instead of actually citing the website), the incivility on the IP's part is wrong. Looking at their website, I don't see anything about a Blink-182 Christmas deal on their website, nor anything about a new album. This is why we take link citations instead of random (and probably fake) screencaps, because links are verifiable. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- ?, Not talking about that - I have been trying to edit the blink page with information about their new EP and for some reason this guy is fighting it. 76.169.235.102 (talk) 00:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Their website is already listed on the page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Report per WP:ARARAT
Per the instructions at WP:ARARAT I am filing a report here. Ararat arev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to have reared up again in the recent case of Frost778 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). On User talk:Ian.thomson Frost's admitted IP can be seen admitting to having added the information about Orion to Hayk and vice versa "years ago". Checking at the history of Hayk confirms it was Ararat arev who added this info in 2007, so there's a whole bunch more socks for Ararat who has over 300 already, and an update to be made at WP:ARARAT. Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Chauahuasachca and unilaterally moving pages
A great part of Chauahuasachca (talk · contribs) 's edits are moving pages. All of these moves are unilateral without any proper discussion. Some are uncontroversial and are left to stand, but about half have been since reverted. He's been warned on his page about moving pages (by copy and paste) and about doing controversial moves without obtaining consensus first. He's been informed about the requested move procedure but chooses to ignore it all of the time. And several of his page moves have been reverted quickly.
I ran into him when he moved the Syrian Republic (1930–1958) article to a plainly wrong name Syrian Republic (1930–1963). The state ceased to exist in 1958, as it opted for full union with Egypt, known as the United Arab Republic, that survived until 1961. So it's just factually wrong. I reverted the move as controversial and without consensus. Instead of going to the talk page or request move, the user chose to revert my reversion and to edit the redirect so that the page couldn't be moved again.
I'm not looking for a block or anything of the sorts; it hardly warrants so. But the user's behavioral patten in completely disregarding other people when moving pages and not heeding the advice to use Requested move (in controversial moves, or when he's reverted the first time) certainly warrant a warning from an admin and should be looked into. I would also like the page to be moved to the name that it had for over a year, so that a proper Requested Move process could begin. Thank you. Yazan (talk) 02:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Addendum: The user seems to have had an older account (Poarps (talk · contribs)) with the same issues (page moving without consensus, edit warring over it). The account was blocked per this sockpuppet investigation; but he has not indicated it on his current userpage. Yazan (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) as he was asked to as part of not being blocked in the SPI. gwickwire | Leave a message 02:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I moved Syrian Republic (1930–1958) back. I left them a note: one more move and it's a block. I have not looked (yet) at the other account and the conditions--it's a busy night here, and if anyone wants to step in they are welcome to do so. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Lx 121 - belligerent edit warring
Yesterday I removed an inappropriate addition to Claes Oldenberg. User:Lx 121 is now making a transparent attempt to pay me back for my trouble by being belligerent and edit warring over straightforward edits. I am not bothered by either, but there appear to be obvious WP:COMPETENCE issues. See Talk:Do it yourself#original research and images and Talk:Claes Oldenburg#intellectual property. Would someone like to point this user in the right direction, because I don't have the patience. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- hi; as i stated @ Talk:Do it yourself#original research and images i disagreed with the user's edits on their merits; the user has a novel interpretation of wp:or & is using it to justify removing ALL photos from the article; replacing them with nothing. the user has refused to engage in constructive discussion about the images, suggested no replacement images, & has re-used the "or" arguement (without providing adequate clarification of their reasoning) each time they removed all the images, ignoring the actions of myself & another user to 'placate' their concerns by revising the caption text accordingly.
- this user is the only person involved in this dispute who is seeking the removal of all photos from this article, & has also now violated the 3r rule to "get their way" in this matter.
- i would also note that this user's sole contribution to the DIY article has been to remove material. Conversely, my edits have gone beyond simply restoring the photos (& revising the captions), to include at least minor additions to the content [56]. not that i'm bragging sbout it, this is minor work; but i would like to establish for the record that my interest & actions in the article are separate from my 'interactions' with this user.
- tangentially, the user is in the habit of (intermittently) making snide/inappropriate comments in edit histories [57]
- & has an ongoing (also intermittent) history of inappropriate behaviour when interacting with other users User_talk:Delicious_carbuncle. i'm not looking to make a big deal about it, but then i'm not the one who initiated a complaint here; &, as above, i'd like to make sure that this is all on the record. feel free to dredge up any skeletons from my wretched past also.
- i'm going back to what i was working on, now.
- cheers, Lx 121 (talk) 03:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Delicious carbuncle and snide comments? That'll be the day. Well, the rather blatant original research (the addition was wrong in many ways) has been dealt with by another editor. DC, are you accusing Lx 121 of hounding? Care to give specific diffs? Drmies (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Never mind. Lx 121, here's the score. Apparently Delicious carbuncle suggested you could get blocked for your efforts on Do it yourself, to which you asked, "on what grounds?" Well, here's the grounds: hounding, edit warring, and making a fool of yourself. This retaliatory editing is obvious enough. It is easily solved, though: stay away, well away, from Delicious carbuncle's edits. That may be hard, since they're somewhat prolific, but if you again give the impression of biting back for a perceived slight (DC was correct on the Oldenberg article) you will most likely be blocked for WP:HOUNDING. Drmies (talk) 03:46, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Help, template vandalism at Samus Aran
Someone has vandalized a template or something at Samus Aran so that clicking anywhere in the page redirects you to an external link at blogspot. Not good. The Garbage Skow (talk) 05:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I believe this is now fixed. Thank you for the report. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:08, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, it looks like you got him. Took me a minute to figure out where it was transcluded from. The Garbage Skow (talk) 05:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Richard Searby
Hello everyone, can someone take a look at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/REPLACE THIS TEXT WITH ARTICLE NAME#Edit request on 17 November 2012? I see mentions of BLP violations and a legal team being assembled, but I can't deal with it as I am just about to go out. — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 11:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Bloody hell. I blocked the vandal, wrote a long response to the IP, including an explanation of NLT, and told him I wasn't blocking at this time. Meanwhile, Bwilkins blocked. Bwilkins, could you please unblock? There's nothing wrong with someone complains about gross, BLP violating vandalism and couches in legal terms. Those vandals should feel a "chilling effect". Yes, we should educate the person not to use the legal threat, but we don't need to insta-block them. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Couches in legal terms? "..inform me within 7 days of the name, e-mail address and identity of the person in question." Unreal. Doc talk 12:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. There was nothing "couched" - it's a direct statement that legal action is in progress. I indeed left a message on the IP's takpage and blocked the IP for a mere 5 days more than 1 hour before Qwyrxian left a message on the above request for mediation page (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- So you blocked the person, but didn't respond to the very legitimate concerns they had, didn't tell them how to fix the problem, and didn't block the vandalism-only account that made the BLP-violating edit the IP was complaining about? This is exactly the point behind WP:Don't overlook legal threats. Remember, the point behind [[WP:NLT}] is that treats have a chilling effect. This is exactly what we want for vandals and BLP-violators. If the vandal felt worried because someone was going to sue him, that seems like a great outcome to me. Apologies for my use of the term "couched"; I didn't mean to imply that it was an indirect legal threat. But I don't know where this idea recently arose that somehow WP:NLT is an exception to our standard policy of warning people before blocking. We don't even block real vandals without warning except in the absolutely most extreme circumstances. Why should we block someone who actually has grounds for complaint (probably not a lawsuit, but certainly a complaint) when they used a means of expressing themselves that is extremely common everywhere other than Wikipedia? To turn a phrase, perhaps we need to remember that WP:NLT is not a suicide pact. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. There was nothing "couched" - it's a direct statement that legal action is in progress. I indeed left a message on the IP's takpage and blocked the IP for a mere 5 days more than 1 hour before Qwyrxian left a message on the above request for mediation page (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Couches in legal terms? "..inform me within 7 days of the name, e-mail address and identity of the person in question." Unreal. Doc talk 12:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)