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Jasper Deng (talk | contribs) →Long-time user blocked with no discussion: rectifying |
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For the record, I've filed [[WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Chutznik|this user's first and probably not last SPI]]. Would like a CheckUser to investigate.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] [[User talk:Jasper Deng|(talk)]] 17:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
For the record, I've filed [[WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Chutznik|this user's first and probably not last SPI]]. Would like a CheckUser to investigate.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] [[User talk:Jasper Deng|(talk)]] 17:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
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: I know nothing about this, but can find neither a community "ban" discussion nor an arbcom decision "banning" these accounts, notwithstanding that they've been described as such on the user pages by Raulxx (can't remember the numbers).[[User:Bali ultimate|Bali ultimate]] ([[User talk:Bali ultimate|talk]]) 17:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
: I know nothing about this, but can find neither a community "ban" discussion nor an arbcom decision "banning" these accounts, notwithstanding that they've been described as such on the user pages by Raulxx (can't remember the numbers).[[User:Bali ultimate|Bali ultimate]] ([[User talk:Bali ultimate|talk]]) 17:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::: {{ec|4}}Even if there is no ban, we can create one right now.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] [[User talk:Jasper Deng|(talk)]] 17:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
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=== Formalize ban for Chutznik === |
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*{{userlinks|Chutznik}} |
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Since I see no discussion saying he's banned for real, let's rectify this. !vote below.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] [[User talk:Jasper Deng|(talk)]] 17:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== Possible sockpuppetry and/or meatpuppetry at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shardul Pandey]] == |
== Possible sockpuppetry and/or meatpuppetry at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shardul Pandey]] == |
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Revision as of 17:54, 20 May 2012
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User:TenPoundHammer
I've been reading through a few of the recent Webcomic AfD's including a few in the archives, and just about every single AfD that TenPoundHammer has started (and there are many among the recent ones) claims that there are either no good sources included in the articles, or such sources if they exist are always spurious, trivial, and/or non-notable. Some articles have been nominated for deletion multiple times by TenPoundHammer, and every single one of the current AfD's in discussion has been started by TenPoundHammer. I have to question this user's motives in regards what appears to be both a one-man crusade on (and an incredible assumption of bad faith towards) webcomics and webcomic-related articles. At a minimum, TenPoundHammer should not be allowed to repeatedly nominate webcomic articles for deletion. Veled (talk) 03:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- The question to ask is, how many of the AFDs that TPH opens are closed as "keep". If most of them are, there may be a call for a user RFC to ask him to stop nominating these. But if TPH's record generally follow through on his recommendations for deletion, then there's no action. As long as he's not doing in massive bunches that are impossible to work though (I know there's a term that ArbCom used for this on an somewhat related case), there's no issue here. Either way, this is not an ANI matter. --MASEM (t) 03:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's usually referred to as fait accompli. Regarding a RfC, WP:Requests for comment/TenPoundHammer was closed about a week ago. Flatscan (talk) 04:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- What Masem said. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- What Drmies said. SummerPhD (talk) 04:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pardon me, but what (asketh EEng) said Drmies? EEng (talk) 05:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- "What Masem said. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)"
- Nil Einne (talk) 06:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- TPH has recently been at RFC/U over just this issue. He denied there was a problem, abused other editors for suggesting that there was, then grudgingly accepted that he would be more careful in the future.
- Evidently an empty promise. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Evidently" implies evidence. Do you have evidence that TPH didn't conduct due diligence before these AfDs? The RfC was a predictable pile-on whose partipants could have been divined well in advance. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Do not attack other editors at that RFC by, like TPH, assuming their motives and with your "could have been divined well in advance" comment implying that their comments were literally prejudicial in being pre-judged before any consideration of the evidence presented at that RFC.
- At the RFC AfDs, we had the list of Viz characters, where these 50+ articles were listed for deletion at more than one a minute. As that is generally agreed to be faster than humanly possible with any sort of research or consideration of the article issues, these were either AfDs based on no research, or they were based on the assumption that "there are no notable Viz characters" and then working through the entire category on that basis.
- With these Webcomics AfDs, we see a nomination for each one that is a variant of "It has been at AfD before, I didn't like it then and I don't see any changes". The corollary to that is of course that is has passed AfD once and if nothing has changed, one might expect it to pass again. I see nothing on any of these AfDs that TPH has followed his grudging promise to look harder in the future. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Evidently" implies evidence. Do you have evidence that TPH didn't conduct due diligence before these AfDs? The RfC was a predictable pile-on whose partipants could have been divined well in advance. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pardon me, but what (asketh EEng) said Drmies? EEng (talk) 05:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is it axiomatic yet that any time an editor's actions are referred to as a "crusade" that the action is at very worst borderline and in actual fact a very useful bit of hard work in most cases? Doubly so where said crusade involves AfD. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, not an ANI issue. I have to confess that I like Hammer, even if he is a bit quicker to go to AFD than I am. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 08:58, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying he suffers from Premature Evaluation? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think there's some good advice on this at WP:TOOSOON. EEng (talk) 16:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying he suffers from Premature Evaluation? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Had a read through the AFDs in that link and TPH does make sense that the webcomics fail GNG. I see no bad faith in nominating those articles. Blackmane (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of the case here specifically, we really should start a discussion in Village Pump Policy to see getting it added to Afd rules that users are not allowed to nominate articles for AfD twice in a row. There's too much possibility for gaming the system this way to try and get an article deleted on the off-chance of getting a bad turnout at a subsequent AfD. SilverserenC 09:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- No. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- So as long as I use meat/sockpuppets the first time, I never have to worry about you nominating my article twice? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would strongly oppose such bureaucratic wankery. Tarc (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Imposing such a restriction would be very unhelpful. Just because some editors may be considered to be re-nominating inappropriately does not mean that we should prevent anyone from doing so. Also, Wikipedia emphatically does not need yet more rules. The gradual instruction creep over the years has made Wikipedia more confusing and intimidating for new users, but has not improved the encyclopaedia significantly, if at all. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- As with others, I do not see a problem this proposed red tape is intended to solve. Resolute 14:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think I would need to see a list of what new AFD's have come out since the RFC was completed - that way, I could see if indeed the behaviour that led to the RFC had changed. I'm not going digging myself - that's the job of whoever submits this report. Even still will it be blockable? (no) Would the community impose restrictions? (possibly) The OP really didn't ask for nor give specifics (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Although thinking about this a little more...I would be amenable to the idea of requiring a repeat nomination to specifically address something tangible that has changed since the last nomination that could potentially result in a consensus change. If such a thing were ever adopted though, it should apply equally to repeat DRV filings. Tarc (talk) 16:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just because I was curious, I added a quick option to my AfD vote counting tool which allows you to only look at AfD's that a particular user nominated. In TPH's case, for the last 250 AfD's that he nominated, 28 haven't closed yet (or were unparseable by the tool), so that leaves us with a total of 222 AfD's. Here's how those 222 ended up:
- 78 were deleted or redirected (35%)
- 98 were kept (44%), 21 of which were speedy keeps
- 19 were merged/transwiki'd/userfied (9%)
- 27 had no consensus (12%)
- The 250 AfD's span over a period of 291 days, which averages out to about 0.86 AfD's per day.
- TPH has nominated a total of 2,369 pages, and has edited a total of 10,907 unique AfD pages.
- In my opinion, a 1 in 3 success rate is quite low for someone who is nominating articles so frequently, and has been nominating articles for so long. You'd think that by now he'd have a better sense of what will end up being deleted and what won't. Whether or not this is actionable, I have no idea, but my hope is that TPH sees these stats and considers being more careful with future nominations. -Scottywong| prattle _ 17:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide statistics for Afds since the RFC close? Nobody Ent 17:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- It looks like the RfC closed 8 days ago? In that case, very few (if any) of the AfD's he's nominated since then will have closed yet. -Scottywong| spout _ 17:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- .86 AfD's per day is not disruptive. It's not like he's nominating unquestionable keeps. AfD is for "discussion," so discuss. Are you worried that he is trying to slip one by you, or that he might change people's minds about the articles he nominates? Hipocrite (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- One would presume that the speedy keeps are "unquestionable keeps". I mean, that's a rather high number of speedy keeps, which should otherwise be extremely rare, unless one is a new user nominating random things. And I should also note that most of the Keep decisions, as I was involved in a number of those AfDs, were also "unquestionable", just not speedyable. SilverserenC 19:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- SW, I'm genuinely curious, and not arguing with your concerns or logic, but what would qualify as a "good enough ratio" for votes or noms in AFDs? I can see where his looks low, but where is the line between "acceptable" and "unacceptable"? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- .86 AfD's per day is not disruptive. It's not like he's nominating unquestionable keeps. AfD is for "discussion," so discuss. Are you worried that he is trying to slip one by you, or that he might change people's minds about the articles he nominates? Hipocrite (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- It looks like the RfC closed 8 days ago? In that case, very few (if any) of the AfD's he's nominated since then will have closed yet. -Scottywong| spout _ 17:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd argue that's a +50% success rate when you count no consensus and the merge/redirect/userification stats. The only number of concern is the number of speedy keeps which is 10% of his noms in that survey, but without knowing why speedy keeps were called , its hard to question if that's a problem. And as noted, the rate is far from faite accompli levels. Since the RFC seemed to close with no real consensus on TPH's actions outside of people wishing BEFORE was more enforcable, I see nothing that still requires admin action. --MASEM (t) 17:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I could draw a bright line between acceptable and unacceptable, but for a user that has nominated thousands of articles, I don't think it's unreasonable to question him when 2 out of 3 nominations are not ending up as deletes (especially when you consider that 2 out of 3 of all AfD's close as delete or redirect). As a comparison, while I haven't nominated anywhere near as many articles for deletion as TPH, 60% of my nominations have ended up being deleted or redirected, and that includes my nominations from 3+ years ago, when I had no idea what the hell I was doing. TPH's stats above are only from recent AfD's, and his success rate is half of mine. I'm not saying that any action needs to be taken because of it, but I think he could take these stats to heart and maybe put an extra minute or two into considering whether the AfD he's about to start actually has a shot. -Scottywong| verbalize _ 17:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't really have a dog in this fight but after seeing it I was a bit curious. I glanced at a few of the ones that were kept and quite a few were kept on the grounds of lack of conesnsus to delete. Conversely, several of the ones that were deleted had no votes at all and appeared to be deleted merely on the grounds the AFD wasn't contested. That might be worthy of some review IMO. Kumioko (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- So you'd be ok with his nominations if he tossed in a thousand easy deletes by watching new-pages and not CSDing anything? Why is nominating difficult articles for discussion a problem, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, many of them aren't "difficult", they're just plainly obvious keeps that an experienced editor should be able to recognize, like 1 2 3 4. Try actually doing some research before posting kneejerk reactions. -Scottywong| speak _ 18:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- That answered my question in part, that 2/3 of all noms are deleted, and that is a worth while minimum goal for anyone. Again, I wasn't doubting your logic, I just was looking at stats with nothing to measure them against. I know that last time I checked my long term states on votes, I was in the 80% range with the outcomes, and not sure if the overall ratio was that high or higher, but I guess not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, many of them aren't "difficult", they're just plainly obvious keeps that an experienced editor should be able to recognize, like 1 2 3 4. Try actually doing some research before posting kneejerk reactions. -Scottywong| speak _ 18:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I could draw a bright line between acceptable and unacceptable, but for a user that has nominated thousands of articles, I don't think it's unreasonable to question him when 2 out of 3 nominations are not ending up as deletes (especially when you consider that 2 out of 3 of all AfD's close as delete or redirect). As a comparison, while I haven't nominated anywhere near as many articles for deletion as TPH, 60% of my nominations have ended up being deleted or redirected, and that includes my nominations from 3+ years ago, when I had no idea what the hell I was doing. TPH's stats above are only from recent AfD's, and his success rate is half of mine. I'm not saying that any action needs to be taken because of it, but I think he could take these stats to heart and maybe put an extra minute or two into considering whether the AfD he's about to start actually has a shot. -Scottywong| verbalize _ 17:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide statistics for Afds since the RFC close? Nobody Ent 17:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is not that some of his deletions result in a keep; some of mine result in a keep also, and so will those of anyone who nominates other than sure things. The problem is that some of them are utterly unreasonable. It's not the frequency of mistakes alone, but the nature of some of the mistakes. When you nominate as he does, it's almost like nominating all articles that appear to be without many sources--some will surely be deleted, and perhaps even most, but some nominations will be patently absurd. To the extent anyone nominates articles that need serious debate but are then kept, that's commendable work in calling difficult problems to attention; to the extent anyone nominates articles that get Snow or Speedy kept, it's an error. In a novice, excusable error; in an experienced editor at AfD, carelessness; in one of the most experienced editors at AfD who has made many such errors and told about them in no uncertain terms, recklessness and disregard for the community. There's lots of junk that has to go, and they will go the more effectively if the nominator does some thinking. Things are erratic enough at AfD without deliberately adding to it. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I admit that while I've made a bunch of AfD nominations in my day, I'm a good long ways over 50%, and that's because I try to get a sense of whether a nomination will likely pass. I've certainly gritted my teeth and let a bunch of obvious clunkers go past, simply because of my certitude that the fanboy POV-pushers would flock in droves to tender WELIKEIT/ITSUSEFUL votes. There's no need to clog process with doomed AfDs. Ravenswing 18:41, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
This is premature evaluation; it's inappropriate to collect stats from before the RFC. This thread should be tabled and an interval of say at least 30 days or 300 Afds after the RFC allowed to pass before evaluating TPH post RFC contributions. Nobody Ent 18:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, if we go by the end of the RfC (May 8), most of those haven't closed yet, but of those, HALF of them are webcomics articles under discussion (as per my complaint). However, since the start of the RfC (March 7), when TPH was theoretically put on notice, we still have a heap of keeps, including a bunch of speedy keeps all at once. Veled (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to express my discomfort with the casual use of the term "success" above. To my way of thinking, if TPH (or I, or DGG, or anybody else) proposes an article as an Article for Discussion, and as a result the article is improved and the discussion is properly closed as "Keep", that is a success for Wikipedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed that an AFD that otherwise improves an article because of newly-discovered sources is a "success", but I think we're taking the more statistics-based approach of a success in trying to identify if TPH's AFD noms are false positives or the like, and in no way should be taken to mean "Hey,great, we got rid of an article, let's celebrate!" success. --MASEM (t) 00:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is where wp:before is so important. If an editor makes a goodfath attempt to source an article and draws a blank, then an AFD that results in the article being sourced is good result. When an AFD closes as keep after sources were easily found, then there can be a feeling that the nominator has wasted a lot of other people's time, probably annoyed the editors of that article and that it would have been much better if they'd sourced the article instead of AFDing it. ϢereSpielChequers 07:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Statement by TenPoundHammer about renominations
I just want to say, 99% of time time, if I renominate something for AFD that I've nominated before, it's because the last AFD a.) was closed as "no consensus", or b.) kept due entirely to invalid arguments such as WP:ITSNOTABLE. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then I'm certain you're waiting a long time (such as months) before re-nominating, and re-verifying any new information that has come to light since before doing so. Otherwise, WP:IDONTLIKEIT regarding the decision is not a valid reasoning, OR hoping that you'll get a different esult a week later is also not a valid reasoning. Closes of No Consensus means go away for awhile. Both of the reasonings you provide above mean you're second-guessing the Admin who closed them - don't. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, not respective of TPH, I always find it annoying when someone resubmits on AFD on the heels of it being closed as no consesnsus. I wouldn't even oppose adding something to a policy somewhere that an X month wait is suggested before renominating.
@Nobody Ent, the problem is the RFC directly relates to this discussion and activity. I personally have never had a problem with TPH and I think we have a good report but I think that this discussion has some merit. I'm not saying that TPH is a vandal, a bad guy or even in the wrong in anyway. What I do suggest is that they slow down on the AFD's a wee bit and perhaps give them a little more scrutiny before submitting them. Its not going to hurt the pedia if we have a non notable cartoon article for a little while. Kumioko (talk) 18:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Like I said, I like Hammer, but will be the first to admit his WP:BEFORE efforts could use some work. I've said on a couple of occasions over the years that he needs to slow down a bit with AFDs, but again, that isn't an issue for ANI and was already covered at the RfC. I'm thinking we really don't have anything better to do at ANI today, so we are just dragging this out. Like a slow news day. Not sure what more use can come of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)That suggestion would be appropriate on the users's talk page -- I'm not seeing any post RFC discussion there discussing TPHs contributions since then. Nobody Ent 18:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Honestly, I've been distracted and didn't notice he had an RFC. I'm fairly sure that I have left that on his talk page and elsewhere a very long time ago, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)That suggestion would be appropriate on the users's talk page -- I'm not seeing any post RFC discussion there discussing TPHs contributions since then. Nobody Ent 18:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Like I said, I like Hammer, but will be the first to admit his WP:BEFORE efforts could use some work. I've said on a couple of occasions over the years that he needs to slow down a bit with AFDs, but again, that isn't an issue for ANI and was already covered at the RfC. I'm thinking we really don't have anything better to do at ANI today, so we are just dragging this out. Like a slow news day. Not sure what more use can come of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilikins, you could have checked. (It's ironic that we're discussing effort put into checking things by TenPoundHammer.)
- Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire (AfD discussion) — renominated by TenPoundHammer after a two and a half year gap (with someone else nominating in the meantime)
- The Whiteboard (AfD discussion) — renominated by TenPoundHammer after a three year gap (first AFD nomination was by someone else, a further two and a half years before the second)
- 1/0 (AfD discussion) — renominated by TenPoundHammer after a one year gap (and a rapid second nomination that TenPoundHammer xyrself closed after 2 hours)
- Uncle G (talk) 19:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, not respective of TPH, I always find it annoying when someone resubmits on AFD on the heels of it being closed as no consesnsus. I wouldn't even oppose adding something to a policy somewhere that an X month wait is suggested before renominating.
- Dominic Deegan I renominated since the first two both closed as "no consensus", and as pointed out above, the last AFD was quite a ways back — there's been plenty of time for more sources to come, but none have. Whiteboard also had both a no-consensus close and a significant enough gap. With 1/0, the first AFD was "no consensus", and I probably forgot about the first AFD by the time I made the second one. Still, that second nomination was a mistake from years ago, and I can't think of any time in recent memory that I've accidentally renominated something so soon. Either way, in all of the AFDs listed above, I've shown my work in regards to finding sources. And I find it absurd that someone has proposed a separate notability guideline for webcomics, since some "fly under the radar" and never get mainstream attention. Tell me why anything should get exemption from WP:GNG. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not 100% sure TPH but as I read it I think Uncle G is speaking in support of your AFD's.Kumioko (talk) 20:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- My own take on the OP's complaint, by the bye (as opposed to TPH at AfD generally)? There does seem to be an all-too-common sequence of reasoning at work:
::* Editor happens across a non-notable article in a subject field, and files an AfD.
::* Editor pokes around a bit, and finds a bunch of debris in said field. After the "Holy crap!", editor grimly buckles down to AfD work.
::* Fans - who aren't often experienced editors themselves - leap up and down in protest, with "OMG vendetta!" "OMG bad faith!" or similar lines leaping from the pen.
(I note, for what it's worth, that the OP has exactly twenty articlespace edits over the last five years.) Ravenswing 19:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I concur; I've seen it happen to editors earnestly trying to cleanse the Augean stables - but by the same token, the same pattern appears when somebody decides that a topic is not "worthy" of Wikipedia, and goes on a crusade/jihad to purify us of said unworthy topic. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The nominator is also the author of the Last Res0rt article and is clearly out to get me just because I dared to AFD his precious article. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't sweat it their motivations, it's meaningless. We all have areas we need improvement (CSD was pointed out as mine, if you remember). I still send articles to you as I respect your opinions. Yes, slowing down a little and working on WP:BEFORE would help you avoid all this discussion and that alone makes it worthwhile. Your nom/delete ratio isn't up to the standards that you are fully capable of. Again, you already know this. Boing! is helping me with CSD. I'm helping YRC with communications. Asking someone with a better ratio for assistance isn't about a weakness, it is about strength of character. If I can be given the admin bit while at the same time they suggest and I accept mentoring, maybe you could consider someone strong at AFD to help you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think that part if the problem is that TPH has a different view of deletion to others. For example his belief that "ItsNotable" is an invalid argument in deletion debates, as well as his use of AFD to get articles on notable subjects cleaned up by others. I had a discussion with him recently where he took the view that someone being a "renowned sculptor" wasn't a credible assertion of importance. Perhaps the best solution here would be to topic ban TPH from the deletion process, with of course exemptions for G7 and U1. ϢereSpielChequers 07:22, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- That would be an overreaction. And "it's notable" sans evidence is indeed no argument at all, as evidenced by its inclusion at ATA. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- What Chris said ... and beyond that, calling someone a "renowned sculptor" isn't a credible assertion of importance. It is merely an assertion of importance. "Credible" would require evidence in the form of reliable sources quoting, well, credible authorities. Ravenswing 20:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- On that logic lack of a reliable source would be a speedy deletion criteria. That would be a big policy change, I'm not necessarily against such a change provided we change the article creation process to promote it in a minimally bitey way. But it isn't current policy and I doubt if it will become so. ϢereSpielChequers 20:44, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ditto Chris. Way too extreme. And "renowned sculptor" might get you out of CSD but not AFD. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:08, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's rather my point. If TPH had Googled the chap and either referenced the article or taken it to AFD then I'd have no concern. But that isn't his modus operandi, he tried to get it speedied A7 despite it having a credible, albeit unsourced, assertion of importance. I rather suspect that TPH is trying to broaden CSD to include "Would probably be deleted at AFD", and the reason why that isn't a CSD criteria is the inevitable disruption from the times when such articles turn out to be on notable subjects. ϢereSpielChequers 20:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I said it might get you out of CSD, I didn't say it was a shoe in, by the way. But banning Hammer from the deletion process? I don't see that getting much support. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's rather my point. If TPH had Googled the chap and either referenced the article or taken it to AFD then I'd have no concern. But that isn't his modus operandi, he tried to get it speedied A7 despite it having a credible, albeit unsourced, assertion of importance. I rather suspect that TPH is trying to broaden CSD to include "Would probably be deleted at AFD", and the reason why that isn't a CSD criteria is the inevitable disruption from the times when such articles turn out to be on notable subjects. ϢereSpielChequers 20:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Somebody needs to close this thing. We all have our opinions where the delete/keep line should be drawn. Mr. Hammer draws it more stringently than many, which is why he doesn't have a higher success rate at AfD on his nominations than what he does. But he is not disruptive. He would certainly be advised to take a simple google search a bit more seriously — tagging articles for sources when he runs into big web footprints rather than being quite so fired up to drag things to AfD. That said, most of his challenges may be plausibly argued — he's not coming at things from a completely wacky perspective, in other words. There was just an RFC on Mr. Hammer, which resulted in no action (correctly), and now he's being dragged through the mud again here. Shut it down already... Nothing to see here. Carrite (talk) 03:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
'Jaguar/Sandbox/3' edits
- Live discussion moved from archive 732.
Before departing, retired User:Jaguar created many articles with malformed ledes and infoboxes, (as seen in a search for the diagnostic string "Jaguar/Sandbox/3" and this fix), presumably with a malformed script or bot. Over 100 (but under 250) exist. Those articles, and other, more recent examples without the aforesaid malformations, also include the text "(Chinese: ?)" as shown, including the question mark. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- I fixed forty, and there are 82 left to do. --Dianna (talk) 08:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- I fixed forty-eight, and can't find any more in mainspace. Rich Farmbrough, 20:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC).
- Thanks, Rich. I did 34 more this morning, so it looks like the problem is resolved. --Dianna (talk) 21:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- I must apologise for my actions that I have done a couple of months ago. I'm afraid that I don't use Wikipedia anymore and I only will return for emergencies such as this one. By the way I didn't use a script or bot, I used to create articles manually. Anyway, thanks a lot for your help! Jaguar (talk) 17:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- I have looked at many of the stubs that User:Jaguar created after this discussion, and many of the ones I looked at have multiple issues such as: reference urls's that don't point anywhere, malformed reference url's, reference url's that point to a website as oppossed to pointing to the page inside the website that talks about the subject, internal links that are wrong, reference titles that are wrong.
- Also I don't know if the (Chinese: ?) thing is an issue or not, but they all have this.
- In my opinion, there is no point in replacing a red link with a stub that doesn't say more than the title and contain things that are wrong. Let alone doing this 10,000 times. Azylber (talk) 10:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide examples of articles where there is still a problem, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I must apologise for my actions that I have done a couple of months ago. I'm afraid that I don't use Wikipedia anymore and I only will return for emergencies such as this one. By the way I didn't use a script or bot, I used to create articles manually. Anyway, thanks a lot for your help! Jaguar (talk) 17:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Rich. I did 34 more this morning, so it looks like the problem is resolved. --Dianna (talk) 21:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- I fixed forty-eight, and can't find any more in mainspace. Rich Farmbrough, 20:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC).
- An example? Let's go to List of township-level divisions of Heilongjiang and start from the very top: the Tongcheng Subdistrict link in Acheng District. It takes us to the page that reads, in its entirety: "Saiqi (Chinese: ?) is a township-level division situated in Ningde, Fujian, China". So is it Saiqi or Tongcheng, is it in Ningde or in Acheng (part of Harbin Prefecture), is the province Fujian or Heilongjiang? A few more items look "OK" (as in, "no useful info, but no absolutely misleading info either"), but then in the 3rd line we have Daling Township whose article has a link to the List of township-level divisions of Hainan in its "See also" section. Obviously I am not going to inspect more than a few stubs - I usually run into them when I need to do something useful - but a good round of quality control seems to be in order here, before more stubs are to be created. Again, I am not against the creation of a large number of township articles per se, but I'd like them to be generated at least at the minimal information level that one can see at zh.wiki. Over there, they had a a bot create them all, and the bot was doing it based on some kind of CSV file with quite a bit of basic information, such the correct county assignment (with the appropriate county-wide category), the list of villages within the township, geographic coordinates, and even the national identification number (zh:中华人民共和国行政区划代码 - something that each township apparently has). -- Vmenkov (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your concerns. I will do my best to address them later on in the week as I am busy for the next few days. I would like to point out that I simply start these stubs so that any user with the knowledge of that area of China can expand them and contribute to them. There has been a mass creation of red links and naturally red links cannot sit there forever, so I took up the task of making those red links blue. It's a feat that improves the encyclopedia, adding some base articles, as of all, we're here to build an encyclopedia, not to finish it. Many thanks Jaguar (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, the first thing I'm going to say is: I'm going to list lots of errors here that affect thousands of articles, so I hope nobody takes this personally, ok? I'm just concerned about the quality of the encyclopedia. Please don't take this personally.
For example, look at this stub: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinsha_Subdistrict
Here are some of the errors present in this stub, which are also present in hundreds of other stubs Jaguar created:
- 1) URL references that are wrong. For the stub we're looking at, the URL for the reference is http://www.xzqh.org/html/gu/ which does not exist and as far as I know never existed.
This error exists in a large number of articles. Does this break the policy on creating lots of unreferenced stubs?
- 2) Internal links that are wrong. For example, in that same article, look at the link that says "township-level division". Instead of taking you to the list of township-level divisions of Guangdong province, it takes you to the list of township-level divisions of Fujian province.
This error exists in a large number of articles.
- 3) Cite titles that are wrong. For example, in that same article, the reference given (which by the way, takes you to a page that doesn't exist) also has the wrong title. It says "福建省", which means Fujian province, when it should say Guangdong province.
So again, introducing information that is wrong. This error exists in a huge number of articles, ranging from March to right now, for example this one created yesterday: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanfang_Subdistrict
- 4) The article says "(Chinese: ?)", which I don't know if it's against the policies or not, but some people have complained. In my opinion, a stub that says nothing more than the title doesn't say much. If you could at leave give us the Chinese name, you're adding something that's not on the title.
- 5) No interwiki to the Chinese wikipedia, even though the article exists in the Chinese wikipedia.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%A0%82%E8%A1%97%E9%81%93
- 6) He was told about some of these errors in December at WP:AN and numerous times since February on his talk page and he didn't fix them. Instead, he chose to go on to create thousands more stubs, with the same errors.
- 7) Errors like the ones pointed out here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jaguar#Jiangwan where he mentions a province and calls it a city, a county and calls it a district and so on. He blames these ones on errors that exist in other pages, but obviously when you create a new article you have to verify what you're writing, right?
- 8) He was asked on numerous ocasions by numerous users to slow down and check the errors in his existing stubs before creating thousands of new ones. I think it's important to listen to that advice.
I think I'm probably missing a few other errors in some batches that I haven't reviewed, but this should be enough to show what the situation is.
Whether or not creating thousands of stubs is a good idea or not has been debated many times and I don't want to enter that discussion, but I think a one line stub that contains errors is definitely a minus and not a plus, because it's misleading and also because it takes longer to fix it than to do it right at creation.
Finally, if you look at the notice at the top of Jaguar's talk page, it says that if you report these issues he will give you one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_%28gesture%29 I think this is not constructive.
Again, I hope nobody takes this personally. Azylber (talk) 15:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's OK don't worry! I didn't take any of that personally. Can I point out to you that there are actually fewer mistakes than you think:
- 1) These URLS are broke because the Chinese website went down at the time and that is entirely not my fault. I will find a new link and will correct them using AWB if you want.
- 2) Yes, those are plainly my mistakes that I have made when creating these articles and I knew that I have done them. I fixed a lot of links in the past when I had found out that I had made typos in User:Jaguar/Sandbox/3. A few more might exist, but not as much as you think! :)
- 3) Again, a typo. Like above I speedily corrected some of them when I found out that I had forgot to copy and paste in extra words.
- 4) That is there for a reason. The question mark is fine! If I were to look up every single one of those Chinese symbols it would take me half a century to start these articles!
- 5) I will add a interwiki soon.
- 6) That's misleading. I did fix any articles I found problems with in December, before I retired.
- 7) I just follow the lists on what I'm creating on. If there is a province, I put it in the article expecting if it is correct. I had no idea that they could be anything else like prefecture-level cities and so on!
- 8) I didn't create thousands more, I've stopped right now.
- 9) I've removed that from my talk page.
- I will be busy for a few days, which means that I can't correct them just yet. I've just left school for the final time today and said my goodbyes to everyone, so I'll be busy at the moment. I can say that I feel guilty about all this. Please don't look at me like I'm selfish or not considering Wikipedia. I will do anything to put myself in ANI's good books, but I can't today. Thanks, Jaguar (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you did create a very large quantity of articles containing errors after you were told on numerous occasions. So please don't say you didn't know.
- I'm glad that you have at least removed the "fuck you" gesture at the top of your talk page threatening anyone who reported these issues. Azylber (talk) 15:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- It was intended to be a joke and not taken seriously. Please, I'm getting the impression that you're trying to get me into trouble. Jaguar (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Like I said 3 times, this is not personal. I'm not trying to get you into trouble, I'm concerned with what you're doing, despite having been told many times by many people.Azylber (talk) 16:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good, perhaps we should continue at Jaguar's talk page? We can resolve this fairly easily I'm sure, there are a few more wrinkles that need smoothing out. Assistance from someone with strong Chinese reading skills might be an advantage. Rich Farmbrough, 16:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC).
- Good, perhaps we should continue at Jaguar's talk page? We can resolve this fairly easily I'm sure, there are a few more wrinkles that need smoothing out. Assistance from someone with strong Chinese reading skills might be an advantage. Rich Farmbrough, 16:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC).
- Like I said 3 times, this is not personal. I'm not trying to get you into trouble, I'm concerned with what you're doing, despite having been told many times by many people.Azylber (talk) 16:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- It was intended to be a joke and not taken seriously. Please, I'm getting the impression that you're trying to get me into trouble. Jaguar (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that continuing in his talk page is enough. Many have told him about these things for months, and what he's done is make up excuses, leave all the errors there, and create thousands more stubs with the same errors.
- I think perhaps some policy could come out of all this, because all this mess will take a lot of work to fix.Azylber (talk) 16:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:MASSCREATION? --92.6.200.56 (talk) 17:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Azylber, I am listening to all your concerns and I am taking in the comments. I am not ignoring them or making up excuses. There would be no need to go off creating new policies on stubs because there is already enough! If I'm creating stubs for a good cause and if they have at least one suitable reference, then there should be no problem. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to finish it. Jaguar (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm more interested in fixing up issues than worrying about policy. If Jaguar is keen to do as much of that as he can (and I understand that motivation) then his talk page seems a good place to coordinate resolution. Rich Farmbrough, 19:12, 17 May 2012 (UTC).
Do you have any idea of the scale of the issues—is it as big as this, or this? I clicked on the "Jinsha Subdistrict" example above; the amount of pages Jaguar created in the following minute alone is eleven. That's a new one every 5.4 seconds. I have no idea if that was a particularly slow minute. The single reference on each is a googletranslate link. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 19:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm getting here a little late to the party apparently, since we have timestamps from 2011 up there... perhaps some formatting considerations (and a descriptive title) would be called for in future notices.
- Anyway, I'm one of the editors that suggested jaguar slow down. He indicated on the talk page he's made over 10,000 of these stub-type pages... and the creation rate is astounding. I'm not doubting that copy-pasted into chrome and did it that way, but whether we wikilawyer over what semi-automated means or not, the Bot guidelines are very clear for large semi-automated article creations, and this is a textbook version of that. We have policies on hand. Let's please use them.
- Massive stub creations in batch (and i mean massive) are not helpful, and they create way more work to our editors than they provide knowledge to our users. I don't think jaguar means ill in any of this, but it needs to be clear that there's no glory in making hundreds of pages generated out of a table.
- What I would like to see is a consensus that this sort of mass creation, particularly when it's so full of errors (that thankfully people have caught... I shudder to think how many we don't catch), needs to be limited in the least, and that the BAG guidelines are followed, in Jaguar's case specifically, but also more generally. Shadowjams (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Shadowjams, I agree with everything you say, it's exactly my same opinion.
- What I would like to know is who is going to fix all this mess. Thousands of articles without references (a URL that points nowhere or that points to the wrong place is not a valid reference), with internal links pointing to the division list for the wrong provinces, with cite titles that are wrong, without the interwiki link etc etc. It will take a very long time to fix all this, much longer than it took Jaguar to mass-create all these stubs. Are we going to spend the time it would take to fix all this? Is it worth it? We could simply mass-delete them. Or, we could leave them there, trashing the quality of wikipedia.
- It's also worrying to think of how many we don't catch.
- I also want to know what is going to be done to prevent other people doing this in the future.
- Azylber (talk) 22:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well for systematic problems, like the ? in infoboxes, I can help Rich do those with AWB if he wants (because rich is under a bit of a restriction on that I think), but Rich has been very helpful in offering advice about fixing those. If Rich wants to contact me about some of those things I can run I'd be happy to. I have a high level of experience with regular expressions.
- My bigger concern is accuracy related. I don't know anything about the subject of those articles, and I certainly can't dig deeply through those lists. But, if there's stuff that just needs a hammer to do in order to fix it, let me know on my talk page. Shadowjams (talk) 23:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I was involved in a similar situation about a year ago, though on a much smaller scale; an editor was attempting to provide similar information about localities in India (though in aggregate articles rather than individual ones), and they were similarly unsourced or undersourced. One of the ANI reports can be viewed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive696#User Maheshkumaryadav creating a slew of poor articles. The end decision was to delete most of the articles he had made. The most relevant Afd is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of villages in Haryana. The argument I made there, and would probably make here, is that these articles, if unsourced, are actually harmful, and not a part of the incremental step of building the encyclopedia. If we know that a reasonable number of them are wrong, and have no reason to believe that they rest are correct, then it's actually more work for an editor who wants to make these articles to edit these than it is to start from scratch. That's because first they have to look into the existing article, and get confused (wait, is this about a different village with the same name?); then they may have to backtrack to the list articles and fix those. I haven't researched the details above, but if this is a regular, wide-ranging problem, mass-deletion is actually probably a better fix than anything else, unless there is currently another editor who has an accurate almanac who is willing to commit to fixing them relatively shortly. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Mass deletion is not the answer. That is the most upsetting thing I've ever heard. That would mean hours of my work would be gone, all for nothing. Listen, I can fix most of those issues. Rich Farmborough is doing the right thing by making a list of solutions and I will use those solution! I would also like to point out that the whole issue everyone has made here is not as serious as you think. Everyone in this ANI discussion has just pointed out every single bad detail of my Wikipedia career, to be honest. Also, the number of Chinese townships I created is actually not 10,000. It's probably around 8,200+. 10,000 is the total number of articles I've created. And to be honest I know that it sounds a lot, but in truth it isn't. Other uses have created much more the 10,000. Say Dr. Blofeld has created 80,000!
- I was involved in a similar situation about a year ago, though on a much smaller scale; an editor was attempting to provide similar information about localities in India (though in aggregate articles rather than individual ones), and they were similarly unsourced or undersourced. One of the ANI reports can be viewed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive696#User Maheshkumaryadav creating a slew of poor articles. The end decision was to delete most of the articles he had made. The most relevant Afd is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of villages in Haryana. The argument I made there, and would probably make here, is that these articles, if unsourced, are actually harmful, and not a part of the incremental step of building the encyclopedia. If we know that a reasonable number of them are wrong, and have no reason to believe that they rest are correct, then it's actually more work for an editor who wants to make these articles to edit these than it is to start from scratch. That's because first they have to look into the existing article, and get confused (wait, is this about a different village with the same name?); then they may have to backtrack to the list articles and fix those. I haven't researched the details above, but if this is a regular, wide-ranging problem, mass-deletion is actually probably a better fix than anything else, unless there is currently another editor who has an accurate almanac who is willing to commit to fixing them relatively shortly. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- My bigger concern is accuracy related. I don't know anything about the subject of those articles, and I certainly can't dig deeply through those lists. But, if there's stuff that just needs a hammer to do in order to fix it, let me know on my talk page. Shadowjams (talk) 23:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- The difference between Dr. Blofeld's stubs and your stubs is that yours are full of errors and therefore do more damage than good.
- And let me remind you that this discussion wouldn't be taking place if you hadn't ignored the warnings that many people gave you for months on your talk page and welcomed us all with a fuck off gesture that you have removed now that this came to light.
- If you're going to sit down and fix your 10,000 full of errors stubs then it's fine. Otherwise they should be mass deleted because like several people pointed out, they do more damage than good. And it doesn't matter how much work you put into it, what matters is Wikipedia. If you chose to continue working for hours making more stubs with errors after you were told many times, that is only your fault.
- I think you should stop making all these excuses and start fixing. Azylber (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
(←) You say there's "no need to go off creating new policies on stubs because there is already enough", but it doesn't appear you've taken notice of the existing ones. You had Autopatrolled status revoked in late August for creating dozens of unreferenced stubs [1], then asked for it back 3 weeks later "I have mass created over 200 articles and each and every one of them has a suitable reference". If you've mass created 10k, that's 9,800 since last September; 90% of them on Chinese townships. You say you'd been authorised to do the mass creations, as is required, yet when asked for a link to the discussion you gave a link of you re-asking the admin for autopatrol. That isn't soliciting community input nor a proposal of any sort.
Your userpage has an ANI comment linked [2] where you say you created over 100 pages in six minutes. Faster than one every 3.6 seconds. It's directly above: "To do list: 1. Create every township in China, 2. Get to #10 on List of Wikipedians by articles created".
A current WP:BON discussion has highly experienced admins & members of the Bot Approvals Group (see WP:MEATBOT) saying even the simplest bot shouldn't exceed 1 edit every three seconds because sometimes bad edits are made and it can take some time to fix/check. And that's talking about approved bots doing a minor activity.
Problems with the substubs containing temp sandbox titles were raised in late November [3]; you continued creating en masse, the last one six days later - Hongxing Township, placing retired shortly afterwards. [4] [5] You unretired in the new year with the first edit summary "Nobody's gonna push me about", adding "I have returned - but only for a limited time. This time no crackpots at ANI [shortly after changed to nobody] are going to push me about, I'm gonna get this job done once and for all." Your very first edit outside userspace was to resume mass creating with Chengbei Subdistrict, Beijing—which still contains "ENTERHERE". Two in that same minute, fourteen in the following minute continuing that day, and the next and so on, into the several thousands.
The downplaying the issue as "not as serious as you think" (How can you know?) or pledge to do everything you "can to fix these issues" (Suddenly learn to read Chinese?) is what's troubling. Despite you saying [6] this morning "There are no more errors. That's the last of them.", the Chengbei article alone shows this is untrue. The rate at which they're made means mistakes, yet inability to understand the foreign-language source hoping on gtranslate of an Asian language seems the fundamental problem as Azylber and Vmenkov showed above. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 14:07, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I've removed Jaguar's autopatrolled (again). That is the bare minimum that is required here given what evidence suggests is an ongoing inability to trust that his stubs meet the bare minimum requirements for content level and correctness. That doesn't mean this should be closed quite yet. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:46, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Would anybody else like to point out anything bad about my Wikipedia career? How about taking this matter that didn't start off so serious much higher? I'm going to fix these myself since this situation can't get any worse. To be honest I think everyone's jealous that I can contribute to Wikipedia by expanding knowledge and not sticking around ANI all day bullying people into self pity. Jaguar (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- No one is trying to crucify you. You were creating hundreds of stubs that had errors. You have the view that creating hundreds of error-filled stubs and then leaving it to others to clean them up and expand them is not a problem. Consensus here disagreed with you and an admin removed your autopatrolled rights. Other editors are merely telling you to slow down and focus a bit more on quality rather than quantity. Chillllls (talk) 15:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- That IP definitely was. I just don't like it when I try my best to solve issues but I'm being accused of "ignoring them" and "making up excuses" which is not true. I don't appreciate Azylber highlighting the words "fuck off" in bold which is trying to make it look like that I'm being uncivil, but I have never been uncivil around here. I am fixing some of the problems now. I estimate that around the 8,000 Chinese townships I created, only 30% or a little more have errors in them. Do people have the joy of running me down? Jaguar (talk) 16:03, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, people are not taking joy in "running [you] down." Think about this for a second: you estimate that 30% of 8,000 stubs have errors. Looking at it from another perspective, that's twenty-four-hundred errors that you've inserted into the encyclopedia. You're creating these stubs at roughly the same rate as a bot, and a bot with a 30% error rate would never ever be approved. You should realize that there are editors on this page who have said nothing about your civility but have a problem with your stubs. No one is calling for you to be blocked, so please stop playing the victim and fix your contribs. Chillllls (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- That IP was not. Your talkpage includes comments from two users experienced in high-volume page creation, one of whom mass created the politican stubs highlighted above as AlbertHerring then four days after the bulk AfD closed renamed to Ser Amantio di Nicolao (not all he does & he's done a lot for the site), and Dr. Blofeld - who wrote he's also counseled you in email.
- It pushes credibility imo, that they wouldn't be aware of the policy. It became policy not long after that incident. At worse, it can be argued the editor(s) knew or could reasonably be expected to know that you hadn't proposed it, perhaps considering policies don't have to be followed and/or it's better to ask forgiveness than permission, yet didn't bring it up to you in passive encouragement to avoid following policy. The reasons it mandates tasks must be approved are twofold: to help ensure projects that ought to go ahead go well and to ensure editors are not demoralised. You wrote above "Mass deletion is not the answer. That is the most upsetting thing I've ever heard". Had it been proposed help could've been given. Instead a result has been to make an editor, and a young editor at that, feel like crap. This is exactly why DGG said what he did in the community discussion linked from the policy. People are not taking joy in this at all. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 17:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- How do you know so much about me!? And I guess I would have felt like more crap if the '10,000' of my articles got deleted. Jaguar (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Don't worry none of us here know anything personal about you. I was going by your upset comments above. Nobody here wants to make you feel crap, or crappier. I wrote young because you use the
{{busyweekdays}}
school template on your page. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 21:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)- Also, Jaguar has a "this user is a teenager" userbox. Quite frankly Jaguar, you've created an enormous workload on others now. All of your articles need to be checked for errors. Even if by yours reckoning 30% of your articles have errors, it makes no difference to the fact that someone is going to have to go through all of them to work out which ones have problems. In fact, I just sampled the last 29 stubs you edited and every single one used the same link as a reference, to the wrong page. All of them link to the Anhui province page except you created 29 stubs about township level divisions in Beijing. Honestly, I see some serious competence issues here. If you can't be bother to check your reference then you shouldn't be creating articles. I propose that Jaguar be banned from creating any more articles until they've sorted out the mess they've created. Blackmane (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Don't worry none of us here know anything personal about you. I was going by your upset comments above. Nobody here wants to make you feel crap, or crappier. I wrote young because you use the
- How do you know so much about me!? And I guess I would have felt like more crap if the '10,000' of my articles got deleted. Jaguar (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- That IP definitely was. I just don't like it when I try my best to solve issues but I'm being accused of "ignoring them" and "making up excuses" which is not true. I don't appreciate Azylber highlighting the words "fuck off" in bold which is trying to make it look like that I'm being uncivil, but I have never been uncivil around here. I am fixing some of the problems now. I estimate that around the 8,000 Chinese townships I created, only 30% or a little more have errors in them. Do people have the joy of running me down? Jaguar (talk) 16:03, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- No one is trying to crucify you. You were creating hundreds of stubs that had errors. You have the view that creating hundreds of error-filled stubs and then leaving it to others to clean them up and expand them is not a problem. Consensus here disagreed with you and an admin removed your autopatrolled rights. Other editors are merely telling you to slow down and focus a bit more on quality rather than quantity. Chillllls (talk) 15:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Since I've been mentioned: we have a great need to properly advise new editors, more carefully and consistently than we do, but even if we always did it properly, it can only work with those editors willing to listen to advice. When they do not listen to advice, the next step is enough of a warning that they realize. And then if they finally learn, mistakes at the beginning will in fact be forgiven. Creating mass articles is dangerous. It can be done right: a few very experienced and skillful and careful editors have done excellent jobs of it in both geography and biology and to a certain extent in biography also. But some pretty good editors in each of those fields have also gotten overconfident and let things go too quick to control, and have shown sometimes they did not realise all the potential problems. WP is a live & very visible database, and testing any automated process on a live database is dangerous. The way to do mass anything is to start slow and small, increase the numbers and speed gradually, test the output yourself at every stage, and pay attention to the results and the comments. And then decrease the speed if problems develop. New editors especially need to do this: the number of things that can go wrong with an article here is beyond what anyone can possibly realise at first. The difficult of fixing them, especially when there are few qualified experts except yourself because of language or subject, is very considerable. You cannot expect the people who have to do the work not to resent it. When you start again, and I suggest you wait a while before that, please go very slowly. I'd suggest 5 or 10 articles a day at most. I'be been here five years, and I never would even try to make articles any faster than 5 a day. I might write a great macro process, but i would fell obliged to check everything I did, and that cannot be done quickly. DGG ( talk ) 04:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I could not agree more with what DGG has said. He and I have differed on views about notability, but I think one consistent theme is an emphasis on accuracy. The above is excellent advice. People have been talking to Jaguar about this for a while now, and I don't think he's getting the picture yet. As I said before, I don't have any belief Jaguar's acting with any mal intention, however I think there's a serious problem with some of these stub creations by their sheer volume alone. I don't have much to add I haven't already said, but I think Jaguar needs to understand that this is a serious issue. Shadowjams (talk) 04:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I am a very young editor. I fear that if I ever revealed my real age people would be surprised at me. I can assure all of you that there are not as many errors in my articles as you might suspect; I will correct all the ones I can find soon. I too could not agree more with what DGG has said. I will of course take that advice and use it; firstly, instead of going through some of my articles and correcting them, I could rewrite them using User:Jaguar/Sandbox/3, just filling in all the appropriate details. Once I have corrected my errors and redeemed myself at ANI, I will start slowly creating the Chinese articles, doing at least 10 a day at the most. I am over halfway through creating every Chinese township in the world. I will correct them - I've got to do it since it's all my fault really.
By the way there would be no need to ban me from creating articles, I'm not exactly an evil vandal who can't be trusted. Jaguar (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're not a vandal and we can all see your efforts to try to put things right. By the way Jaguar, in all the talkpage/email comments to you did Dr. Blofeld mention the mass creation policy that's been talked about? --92.6.200.56 (talk) 16:24, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, we did not mention any mass creation policies or not that I can remember of anyway. How come you ask? Jaguar (talk) 17:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Curiosity. It's interesting to know more background sometimes. It would be good if Dr. Blofeld could come to this section, he might be able to help. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 18:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, we did not mention any mass creation policies or not that I can remember of anyway. How come you ask? Jaguar (talk) 17:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I endorse the creating of articles about Chinese townships, infact I started and encouraged the creation of the lists by province. I believe China geographically and in terms of population is the most sparsely covered country on the planet on wikipedia and I believe we should have articles on all of the townships in the long term. However, I too have frequently spotted errors in Jaguar's stubs and if you check his talk page history you'll see I contacted him numerous times. The concerning thing is that the ones already created were not corrected after I spotted them. Technically I really think these articles would be better started with a carefully planned bot and given a trial run to look for errors. It als would be good if they could be started with a population figure. I believe there is also a website which lists subdivisions and postcode etc. I think in the long term we'd be better off having a bot create them. The problem of course is few people are expanding them but I believe we should be covering them. But its finding the most efficient way to start them.. When I started stubs in the past I always double checked to see there were no errors and if I did spot errors I'd contact Rich or Ser Amantio to AWB correct them and sort out any mistakes. I think the most productive thing out of this would be to organize a bot to fix all errors. Some of the dead ref links with the wrong code could simply be fixed with a bot after finding what province is what, you just run a bot through the whole province fixing the ref link.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Dr. Blofeld, thank you very much. You're right, it's apparent from the page history you've spoken to him more than once about errors in his stubs. One thing I wondered about, Jaguar said you hadn't talked about wp:masscreation policy. How come? --92.6.200.56 (talk) 12:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Because he's not a bot. They are generated manually. And I have no problem with mass stubbing provided they are accurate without errors and with a fact or two. but as I say in regards to Chinese townships i think a bot should be used.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think that's an example of this. The policy's about mass page creation and the page says whether they're human‑generated manually or not is irrelevant. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 12:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well whoever amended MEATBOT is violating one of the most important principles of wikipedia, WP:AGF. "The disruption must be stopped" does not apply to every stub. It is possible to generate a lot of valuable sourced stubs manually without errors which are useful as a start.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly User:Ganeshk has a process and instructions for creation using AWB if the relevant data is available in csv format, if there is a database to provide that, then it shouldn't be a problem. Most of the India village stubs created through this process are quite better than user generated stuff (primarily newbies who don't know the policies and guidelines). —SpacemanSpiff 13:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (←) The disruption's plain to see. The thread length and amount of editors trying to clear this up alone attest to that. As others observed it would be wikilawyering to keep to the letter but not the spirit of policies. However, in this case it is the letter. MEATBOT is policy and has been for over two years, Dr. Blofeld. Going back even earlier, principles on higher speed editing or assisted human editing have been established policy for at least four.
In any event I was asking about mass creation. Policy requires any large-scale creation task must be pre-approved and further strongly encourages (and may require) community input be solicited at WP:VP/PR. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 15:34, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well whoever amended MEATBOT is violating one of the most important principles of wikipedia, WP:AGF. "The disruption must be stopped" does not apply to every stub. It is possible to generate a lot of valuable sourced stubs manually without errors which are useful as a start.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think that's an example of this. The policy's about mass page creation and the page says whether they're human‑generated manually or not is irrelevant. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 12:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Because he's not a bot. They are generated manually. And I have no problem with mass stubbing provided they are accurate without errors and with a fact or two. but as I say in regards to Chinese townships i think a bot should be used.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
How bad is this?
How many articles are we talking about, in total (ballpark figure)? And approximately how many of them have serious problems (like where they say they're in one province, but they're linked to from a totally different Province article)? Anyone have an estimate? Qwyrxian (talk) 01:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I said above, I estimate that around the 8,200 Chinese townships I created, I say around 25% or 30% might have mistakes. It's not that bad to be honest. I could overwrite all the errors I can find. Jaguar (talk) 10:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I recently made 600+ beetle stub article, and every single one has MOS and Category errors. I fixed 'em all — 4 hours work. (account renamed – tomtomn00) Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 11:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's good you fix up after yourself, TAP. That situation's probably a little different since they're all English-language though. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 12:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your estimated error rate makes me think we should rather delete them all and start over. Mass-creation with a more than 1% error rate just screams "nuke from orbit". Wrong info that isn't easily visible as such is worse than obvious vandalism IMHO. Also, in the substubs that do not even give the township's names in characters (making it hard to research and expand them), essentially nothing is lost by deletion. —Kusma (t·c) 12:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think it would be counterproductive to delete them. Override them, maybe, if somebody can sort out a bot and finish off the rest.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, just imagine deleting 8,000 Chinese townships! I see no point - Like Dr. Blofeld has said, China is one of the most sparsely internet-covered nations on this planet, and having every Chinese township on Wikipedia has a huge potential of becoming a major article one day. China is the most populous nation, so it even has a bigger potential. These need to be kept. Jaguar (talk) 12:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The only alternative to mass-deletion at 25% error I see is to topic-ban the creator so that they would not be able to create anything until the existing errors have been fixed.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's not presently creating any. Also, with the best will in the world it's still unclear if he'd be able to fix or even detect all problems due to the language barrier. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 13:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Don't worry, the language barrier is not the problem (or our biggest concern anyway). The issues are the errors in the articles (simple broken links and links that take you to different places etc). And Ymblanter, please, just assuming that this is an ANI discussion concerning me doesn't mean I'm a criminal who needs to be banned! Jaguar (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I do not assume you are a criminal, it is just that 25% is way over the top, especially given the absolute numbers. The material is just not credible, and has to be either immediately corrected or mass-deleted.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The only option is to correct the ones that need correcting. As of all, it's a Chinese town somewhere in the world. I have seen some of them expand since after a few days I have created them. Trouble is, China is a big place and nobody might have travelled that far. Jaguar (talk) 13:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have a list of the 2000-3000 that need correcting or do we have to go through the 8000 to find out which ones do a disservice to our readers? And if you are going to correct this, how long is it going to take? —SpacemanSpiff 13:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then please start correcting them, Jaguar. In your contribution in the last couple of days I do not see any edits in the article space. These are your mistakes, and this is you who is primary responsible for correcting them, not anybody else.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I will make a start correcting them tomorrow on in two days as I've got a mock exam tomorrow. I don't know how long it will take me until it's 100% clear that no more typos or errors exist but I should give it a week by myself, or longer if I get disrupted by another test. Jaguar (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The only option is to correct the ones that need correcting. As of all, it's a Chinese town somewhere in the world. I have seen some of them expand since after a few days I have created them. Trouble is, China is a big place and nobody might have travelled that far. Jaguar (talk) 13:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I do not assume you are a criminal, it is just that 25% is way over the top, especially given the absolute numbers. The material is just not credible, and has to be either immediately corrected or mass-deleted.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Don't worry, the language barrier is not the problem (or our biggest concern anyway). The issues are the errors in the articles (simple broken links and links that take you to different places etc). And Ymblanter, please, just assuming that this is an ANI discussion concerning me doesn't mean I'm a criminal who needs to be banned! Jaguar (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's not presently creating any. Also, with the best will in the world it's still unclear if he'd be able to fix or even detect all problems due to the language barrier. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 13:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think it would be counterproductive to delete them. Override them, maybe, if somebody can sort out a bot and finish off the rest.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I recently made 600+ beetle stub article, and every single one has MOS and Category errors. I fixed 'em all — 4 hours work. (account renamed – tomtomn00) Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 11:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
According to my calculations, 5.4 solid non-stop days of editing. --Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 15:43, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I see about 30mins before this comment you added a userbox saying [7] you're able to understand/communicate in Chinese at an advanced level—one step below near-native. I don't know why that talent'd be left out up to now while basic-ability German/French was highlighted on the userpage. Oh well it doesn't particularly matter. --92.6.200.56 (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bit confusing, eh? --Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 16:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I think everyone is overlooking this issue too much. I am the only one here who knows what I'm talking about, since I've started these articles, I know that in reality I haven't created that many mistakes. When I did spot a mistake, I corrected the error immediately and corrected my previous articles I created. All the mistakes you see in my articles are probably the leftovers of all the mistakes I have tried to fix in the past but I missed out. I might have even overlooked how many mistakes there are, there might even be less than 25% of 8000. It shouldn't take too long to fix once I start tomorrow or in two days. Jaguar (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
A sample
Just so we're clear about what's under discussion, I looked for some examples. I pulled these five off the bottom of Jaguar's contribs list (feel free to provide other examples if these are not a representative sample)
Each seems to be, well, a neat assembly of templates and links and stuff but based on a single datapoint; that some placename exists. I realise that in the past we've often turned a blind eye to the use of an unreliable listing to create masses of geographical microstubs which fall far short of the GNG, but if the entire article hinges on a single fact that "this place exists" and our only source is a Google translation of a Chinese forum... surely we have to draw a line somewhere? (Google Translate isn't working very well for me at the moment but I can't even find some of these placenames on the page supplied - are these real places?). Sadly it's not the first time I've seen an argument that it's OK to mass-produce this kind of crap because in principle somebody else might be able to fix it - which, in reality, causes maintenance headaches for everyone else further down the road. I have no ill wishes against the creator, and I hope they get past this episode and make a lot of good contributions in future, but I think these articles as they stand are a net negative for the encyclopædia - shouldn't they be deleted, or sandboxed, or incubated, or something? bobrayner (talk) 14:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- They should all be kept, getting rid of them in any form is counter-productive, just like Dr. Blofeld has said. By the way those five examples you gave are 100% fine! Jaguar (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any
{{lang-zh|?}}
s' filled in, do I not? --Thine Antique Pen (talk • contributions) 16:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)- I don't doubt that Dr Blofeld told you it's fine. However, other editors may take a different stance on the value of a huge pile of microstubs which appear to fall far short of the GNG. Surely, removing flawed content (some badly-sourced, some outright wrong) isn't counter-productive, it's improving the encyclopædia. Insisting that articles are 100% fine despite specific problems being pointed out is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and does not bode well for the possibility of fixes being made in article-space. If thousands of articles are left in article-space even though we can't trust their content, doesn't that undermine the encyclopædia? bobrayner (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any
- Contrary to your statement Jaguar, they are not fine. The main problem here is that you have found a single source to reference your stubs. Normally, I wouldn't say that is a problem, but your obvious inability to read chinese means that you have no idea what to do with that source. Here's a list of what's wrong in just those ones you've sampled
1. Each of those townships is part of Kaifeng city in Henan province but his reference is labelled Fujian province (yes I can read chinese).
2. Clicking on that link takes you to the google translated main page of the source. The very least they could have done would have been to link to the city or even the province page, which given that it's been translated would have been a simple task
3. I pulled Liangyuan Subdistrict to see if I could find some info on it. I dug down into the reference page to see if I could find it. Jaguar wrote that it's in Kaifeng city and the List of township-level divisions of Henan also has it listed as part of Kaifeng. After 20min of poking around, I find that Liangyuan is part of Shangqiu, which a search in Google maps will tell you is 150km east of Kaifeng. Somewhat concerned, I had a look at the other 4 articles bobrayner linked to and those ones were at least placed in the right city. Taking this as a first order approximation, there is a possible 20% error of locating the place, with a 100% failure to properly reference the stub. Blackmane (talk) 17:01, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Additional comment I would think that goes with out saying that there are possibly 2000 stubs which aren't located properly and 10,000 or more that have to have their refs checked. Blackmane (talk) 17:06, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I said before, these pages should be deleted. I can also read Chinese, and the "references" given are not referencing the article. It is possible to find references on XZQH, e.g. this about Xinghuaying, but the substubs link elsewhere instead. However, before mass-importing data from a single source, we should check what kind of source this is (copyright questions aside). Start over from scratch and ask people who can read Chinese to help (e.g. at the relevant WikiProjects). —Kusma (t·c) 17:21, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- And certainly any mass creation done here should be interwikilinked to the Chinese Wikipedia, which seems to have at least Xinghuaying. —Kusma (t·c) 17:26, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Edit warring at World War II
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There seems to be a rather significant edit war at the above article. Thought everyone here should know. John Carter (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's actually BruceGrubb (talk · contribs) defying consensus by insisting on inclusion of a fringe view that somehow World Wars I and II were really all just one war; vs. several users who keep telling him to keep it on the talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- In fact, if you READ Talk:World_War_II#World_War_1_.26_2_were_one_continuous_war_theory. I stated and I quote "While there are a handful of people that say WW2 and WW1 were effectively the same war they are a very small minority and so a name change fails under WP:Weight and WP:fringe." However I also pointed that the claims this theory was OR were wrong as there are sources (both then and now) that state this.--BruceGrubb (talk) 16:30, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Please note that Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_Why_We_Fight_series_reliable_source_for_views_of_US_1942-1945.3F was closed by one of the involved editors (who doesn't appear to be an administrator) with only THREE HOURS of discussion. As I noted before the editor in question rearchived is "per WP:DUCK this looks to me like Wikipedia:Gaming the system"
Here are the references to the supposed fringe material:
- "While some historians argue that the war started on 18 September 1931 when Japan occupied Manchuria..." (Cheng, Chu-chueh (2010) The Margin Without Centre: Kazuo Ishiguro Peter Lang Page 116) which references Wernar Ghuhl's (2007) Imperial Japan's World War Two Transaction Publishers (the "Publisher of Record in International Social Science")
- "Few are aware of, or fully appreciate, Imperial Japan's even more vast and equally merciless aggression in Asia, which began with the 1931 invasion of Manchuria. This act was very likely the true beginning of World War II and the global upheaval that followed." (...) "The true story of this WWII (1931-1945) theater of war is that Japan invaded Asian countries representing one-third of the human race. This Great Asian-Pacific Crescent of Pain consisted of many hundreds of millions of people from Japan to Korea, China/Manchuria throughout Southeast Asia, the Pacific, and Indian Ocean islands." (http://www.japanww2.com/chapter1.htm Wernar Ghuhl's (2007) Imperial Japan's World War Two "Chapter 1")
- "Some historians have said that World War II began on the windswept plains of Manchuria, in the war between Japan and China." Peterson, Barbara Bennett (2006) Franklin Delano Roosevelt, preserver of spirit and hope Nova Science Publishers ISBN-13: 978-1604564969
- "You think World War II began in 1933, by Hitler's seizing power, but the Chinese people shall insist that World War II began on Sept. 18, 1931 by Japan's invasion of Manchuria." (letter to the editor LIFE - Sep 21, 1942 - Page 6--backed by Prelude to War which was made by the United states Government
- The United State Holocaust Memorial Museum's World War II: Timeline start with September 18, 1931 though it notes July 7, 1937 as when WWII started in the Pacific.
- "He knew the story well, because it had been he who transmitted the orders for the Japanese troops to march that snowy September 18, 1931, which is actually the date when World War II started." Lee, Clark (1943) They Call It Pacific
- "World War II began along a stretch of railroad track near the northeastern Chinese city of Mukden (now Shenyang). There, on Sept. 18, 1931,..." (Polmar, Norman; Thomas B. Allen (1991) World War II: America at war, 1941-1945 ISBN-13: 978-0394585307)
How can you look at all of this and say it is fringe for the views of 1942-1945? If anything we have an example of editors trying to Wikipedia:Gaming the system to POV the WWII article.--BruceGrubb (talk) 16:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
With all due respect to John, I'm not sure why this was brought to ANI, and even if John simply wanted to alert other editors to the problem to have more eyes on the article (something that is done, for example, at WP:BLPN for BLP articles), I don't see why the content dispute needs to be aired here. It can remain on the article's Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Basically, it was done out of mildly exasperated stupidity on my part. I have the edit warring noticeboard on my watchlist, but when I looked to find it in the template at the top of this page I didn't see where it was listed initially. So, while I knew, somewhere, that the noticeboard existed, I couldn't find it and placed the comment in the one place I could find. I was, unfortunately, a bit rushed this morning, and I see where it is now, in the bottom section, where I didn't see it earlier. I sowwy. John Carter (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
User:DIREKTOR is threatening an edit war at WikiProject Yugoslavia
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:DIREKTOR is refusing to take into consideration any of the proposals I have made for addressing possible POV at WikiProject Yugoslavia over the issue of use of the flag of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) that bears the communist red star over it. I suggested a plain tricolour, DIREKTOR rejected it claiming it was "royalist" or associated with the Serb-dominated Serbia and Montenegro and thus was "offensive" to Yugoslavs because of the absence of a red star. The I proposed having both the historic plain tricolour of 1918 to 1943 alongside the flag of the SFRY and asked DIREKTOR for sources to show evidence that the plain tricolour was offensive. DIREKTOR's response to this was aggressive and in complete violation of WP:DISRUPT. DIREKTOR clearly declared his intention to edit war on this topic, regardless of what other people like me and others may think, saying: "I will revert any additions of the plain tricolour", here is the diff: [8]. DIREKTOR's first sentence in response to my compromise and request for evidence by her/him was to respond in an insulting manner, implying that he/she was rolling on the floor laughing, saying: "Apologies R-41, I'm too busy rolling on the floor to respond in detail." See diff: [9]--R-41 (talk) 15:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
And then as to my request for sources said: "Suffices to say I need no source for what the plain tricolor was used, and as such it is no more acceptable than the red star flag", see diff: [10]. DIREKTOR is refusing to present any evidence to demonstrate her/his claim - particularly for 1918 to 1943, because he/she claims that he/she cannot be questioned about this because it is merely a "fact" - that in her/his view every Yugoslav who flew a plain tricolour flag from 1918 to 1943 was a monarchist or a Serb hegemonist. Furthermore DIREKTOR has a clear POV against Yugoslav people who were royalists - viewing them in a negative manner. DIREKTOR is also in violation of Wikipedia:Tendentious editing for her/his condescending attitude towards historic Yugoslav royalists.--R-41 (talk) 15:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- So, you have a content dispute (see WP:DR) and you're somehow upset that they're rolling on the floor whilst laughing? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:52, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- The issue is a threat to edit war, and general disruptive behaviour, I am not upset that they are "rolling on the floor" laughing - I am showing that because that was DIREKTOR's response to my request for evidence for her/his claim that the plain Yugoslav tricolour is "offensive". This is disruptive behaviour. The principal problem I am addressing here, is this edit: "I will revert any additions of the plain tricolour" [11] - that is a threat of edit-warring. I have proposed compromises to address her/his concerns and he/she refuses to consider them - refusing to have the plain tricolour on the WikiProject title page even if it is included alongside the SFRY tricolour with the red star. I don't think Dispute Resolution will work if a user is committed to revert any inclusion of something that they oppose.--R-41 (talk) 16:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Bwilkins. Yup, one of the better jokes I've heard on Wikipedia :D. Though Producer was in error regarding the author of his proposed new Yugoslav flag. I heard it was Betsi Rosich, he said it was Tomislav Jefersonovich. -- Director (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- @R-41, You want to change a flag on a barnstar because of political connotations, and propose to do this be replacing it with another flag? Director responded that "the plain tricolor unfortunately also carries political connotations", which is pretty much your argument, and then you ask Director to "provide evidence that others find the plain tricolour flag offensive"? How did his "carries political connotations" become "others find the plain tricolour flag offensive", while your "assumption of political affiliation" remain a perfectly good argument? Please provide evidence that the flag with a star is...offensive. Don't actually, a flag is a flag, and all flags have connotations to somebody. CMD (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I must've explained to the man about twenty times that WikiProject Yugslavia is about the historical country, and that it uses the last flag of the country - since it was the last flag, and was used for the longest period. I myself oppose the proposition of using a much older flag, that was less used, simply because R-41 finds the current one personally offensive. Little does he know (actually he does I told him) that the older, pre-WWII version was also a flag of an authoritarian dictatorship, and was also the flag used by Slobodan Milošević during the recent wars. I.e. for much of the Yugoslav population, it was very recently the flag of an enemy state for about half a decade. But I need a source for that, I'm sorry. I can't find my copy of of Offensiveness of Flags: How to Insult Balkans Ethnic Groups Using Just Your Imagination. -- Director (talk) 16:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- @R-41, You want to change a flag on a barnstar because of political connotations, and propose to do this be replacing it with another flag? Director responded that "the plain tricolor unfortunately also carries political connotations", which is pretty much your argument, and then you ask Director to "provide evidence that others find the plain tricolour flag offensive"? How did his "carries political connotations" become "others find the plain tricolour flag offensive", while your "assumption of political affiliation" remain a perfectly good argument? Please provide evidence that the flag with a star is...offensive. Don't actually, a flag is a flag, and all flags have connotations to somebody. CMD (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Bwilkins. Yup, one of the better jokes I've heard on Wikipedia :D. Though Producer was in error regarding the author of his proposed new Yugoslav flag. I heard it was Betsi Rosich, he said it was Tomislav Jefersonovich. -- Director (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you look at what I compromised on, my second proposal was to have an option of the barnstars, the SFRY barnstar and a plain Yugoslav tricolour barnstar for those who didn't want one with the SFRY flag - that offers a choice for people. I proposed having both the SFRY flag and the plain tricolour flag on the template, the article on Yugoslavia in Polish Wikipedia shows both the plain tricolour and the SFRY tricolour in a template there, it is neutral and represents the entire history of Yugoslavia. Again, I posted this as a request and asked for others opinions. The issue is that DIREKTOR said that he/she has threatened to edit war regardless of what others think, this statement by DIREKTOR is the evidence "I will revert any additions of the plain tricolour". DIREKTOR's last statement is again showing her/his POV against the Kingdom of Yugoslavia - DIREKTOR doesn't even account that there may be patriotic Yugoslavs from 1918 to 1943 who may have used the plain tricolour flag without being supporters of "authoritarian dictatorship" or Serb supremacism. And here is her/his aggressive behaviour with "Offensiveness of Flags: How to Insult Balkans Ethnic Groups Using Just Your Imagination" - obviously this doesn't exist and this is an aggressive attack against me - assuming bad faith. And 'here is the use of the plain Yugoslav tricolour flag by the communist Yugoslav Partisans on their badges - so they did not find the plain tricolour "offensive" and this proves that the plain tricolour is not a royalist symbol as DIREKTOR claims - [12]. But again, back to the topic of threats of edit war, DIREKTOR has threatened edit war on this topic, I have presented evidence that shows this.--R-41 (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure there are patriotic Yugoslavs from 1943-1991 who didn't support Serb supremacism or a communist dictatorship. Again, I don't see how your argument isn't one sided. Director is reverting by previous consensus, something in the spirit of WP:BRD. Unless you intend to edit war in your flag, then this whole thing is really a non-issue. CMD (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- @Chipmunkdavis. Incredibly enough, I'm not reverting anything :), and I haven't. This is more like a "future edit war" that's being reported here.
- @R-41. Your proposals are opposed and you do not have consensus. In fact, you have no support whatsoever. Your allegations of my having "threatened to edit-war" are, in my opinion, plain nonsense. I assure you that I fully intend to revert any non-consensus changes you may attempt to push, but I have no intention to edit-war over it. If your intention is to try and force your changes through, and have envisioned some kind of cataclysmic edit-war, that's your imagination and I can't answer for it. I don't know what else to add. -- Director (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure there are patriotic Yugoslavs from 1943-1991 who didn't support Serb supremacism or a communist dictatorship. Again, I don't see how your argument isn't one sided. Director is reverting by previous consensus, something in the spirit of WP:BRD. Unless you intend to edit war in your flag, then this whole thing is really a non-issue. CMD (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) So we're here arguing over the appearance of a barnstar? Even if we accept your reason for being here (threat to edit-war), unless there's a pattern of misconduct, just take care of it if and when it happens, i.e., warn him and report him. No need to be here.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:58, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I offered the proposal that two options of the barnstar be available for users to request to allow choice for users - thus they will always have the option to choose the SFRY flag barnstar but also a plain tricolour barnstar for those who may not want it. DIREKTOR is threatening an edit war, because I am asking for a review of the existing consensus and am asking for views of multiple users on my proposal. DIREKTOR is refusing to wait to hear what others say and is threatening to revert any inclusion of the plain tricolour flag based on the false allegation that the plain tricolour flag is a symbol royalist authoritarian dictatorship and a Serb supremacist symbol, essentially that it is a taboo symbol. But I have disproved this, by showing its use as a symbol by the Yugoslav Partisans - the very communist organization that formed the SFRY and later adopted the tricolour with the red star, the plain horizontal blue-white red tricolour flag symbol can be seen here on these Partisan badges [13]. The issue is that DIREKTOR is refusing to here opinions of people who do not agree with her/him, and is threatening edit war based on her/his views.--R-41 (talk) 17:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- And so? Even assuming everything you say is 100% accurate (and I seriously doubt that to be the case), your complaints about content and your speculation about future edit wars have no place at ANI.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- What?! DIREKTOR has clearly stated intention to edit war "I will revert any additions of the plain tricolour", here is the diff: [14]. This is not "speculation", this is evidence of an openly declared threat to edit war. I thought that Wikipedia users were supposed to be responsible in reporting disruptive behaviour. I would like to hear what another administrator thinks about this, because merely ignoring this threat seems to be to be irresponsible to efforts to avoid disruption of the Wikipedia Project. Please remember that the issue is about an open threat of edit war that I have reported as being in violation of WP:DISRUPT.--R-41 (talk) 17:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please note that DIREKTOR is already involved in similar revert wars with other users: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:DIREKTOR_reported_by_User:WhiteWriter_.28Result:_.29 He also have a long history of blocks because of revert warring: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ADIREKTOR In another words, this user is quite capable of fulfilling his revert war threats. PANONIAN 17:39, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- What?! DIREKTOR has clearly stated intention to edit war "I will revert any additions of the plain tricolour", here is the diff: [14]. This is not "speculation", this is evidence of an openly declared threat to edit war. I thought that Wikipedia users were supposed to be responsible in reporting disruptive behaviour. I would like to hear what another administrator thinks about this, because merely ignoring this threat seems to be to be irresponsible to efforts to avoid disruption of the Wikipedia Project. Please remember that the issue is about an open threat of edit war that I have reported as being in violation of WP:DISRUPT.--R-41 (talk) 17:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- And so? Even assuming everything you say is 100% accurate (and I seriously doubt that to be the case), your complaints about content and your speculation about future edit wars have no place at ANI.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I offered the proposal that two options of the barnstar be available for users to request to allow choice for users - thus they will always have the option to choose the SFRY flag barnstar but also a plain tricolour barnstar for those who may not want it. DIREKTOR is threatening an edit war, because I am asking for a review of the existing consensus and am asking for views of multiple users on my proposal. DIREKTOR is refusing to wait to hear what others say and is threatening to revert any inclusion of the plain tricolour flag based on the false allegation that the plain tricolour flag is a symbol royalist authoritarian dictatorship and a Serb supremacist symbol, essentially that it is a taboo symbol. But I have disproved this, by showing its use as a symbol by the Yugoslav Partisans - the very communist organization that formed the SFRY and later adopted the tricolour with the red star, the plain horizontal blue-white red tricolour flag symbol can be seen here on these Partisan badges [13]. The issue is that DIREKTOR is refusing to here opinions of people who do not agree with her/him, and is threatening edit war based on her/his views.--R-41 (talk) 17:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- The main problem here is general behavior of user DIREKTOR - this user simply refuse to cooperate with other users and he trying to push his own POV by all possible means, no matter that he usually do not have sources that can support his POV. This diff is a very good example of that kind of behavior - DIREKTOR stated there that he need no source for his claim because he explained this numerous times. That is the main problem with this user - when other user asking him to provide sources for his claims, he trying to "defeat" his opponents rhetorically by numerous repeated "explanations" of why he is right and others are wrong (note that others usually have sources behind them, while DIREKTOR often have no other sources instead his rhetorical "explanation"). Cooperation with this user is simply not possible if somebody wants to follow Wikipedia rules and to edit Wikipedia in accordance with sources. The second problem is that DIREKTOR is very aggressive user and that he will revert anybody with whom he does not agree, no matter of the sources - this user have a single goal: to push his personal POV by all possible means. PANONIAN 17:53, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- PANONIAN, you were just topic banned under WP:ARBMAC, and pursuing blocks on two noticeboards against the main editor you were in conflict with could, and probably should, be considered a violation of your editing restrictions. AniMate 18:00, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- How so? I am not aware that my topic ban is including discussions in ANI board. I am not discussing topic from which I was banned, but behavioral pattern of other user in other unrelated pages. This is exactly the problem - it is obvious that admins here are unable to understand the problem and that they do not want to take any action against disruptive user about whose behavior several users complained. PANONIAN 18:08, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- In another words, AniMate, you say that I should be sanctioned just because of comments that I posted here, while DIREKTOR is free to revert, insult and intimidate others as much as he wants without any sanctions. PANONIAN 18:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- "discussions or suggestions about weather-related topics anywhere on Wikipedia" (WP:TBAN).--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but I am banned from topic named "Serbian history 20 years ago", not from topic named "User:DIREKTOR". So, how is this related? PANONIAN 18:22, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are banned from any discussions related to your topic. You certainly don't have to have a specific ban for a particular user. That said, I confess I don't understand the qualification of your ban, which actually is "indefinitely banned from all articles and discussions on Serbian history that took place more than 20 years ago" (leaving off the linked thread).--Bbb23 (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but I am banned from topic named "Serbian history 20 years ago", not from topic named "User:DIREKTOR". So, how is this related? PANONIAN 18:22, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- "discussions or suggestions about weather-related topics anywhere on Wikipedia" (WP:TBAN).--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- In another words, AniMate, you say that I should be sanctioned just because of comments that I posted here, while DIREKTOR is free to revert, insult and intimidate others as much as he wants without any sanctions. PANONIAN 18:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- How so? I am not aware that my topic ban is including discussions in ANI board. I am not discussing topic from which I was banned, but behavioral pattern of other user in other unrelated pages. This is exactly the problem - it is obvious that admins here are unable to understand the problem and that they do not want to take any action against disruptive user about whose behavior several users complained. PANONIAN 18:08, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- PANONIAN, you were just topic banned under WP:ARBMAC, and pursuing blocks on two noticeboards against the main editor you were in conflict with could, and probably should, be considered a violation of your editing restrictions. AniMate 18:00, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- But my point is - I am not discussing topic from which I was banned (and I really do not care about flag dispute that DIREKTOR had with other user). I had many disputes with User:DIREKTOR in many topic areas, which are not related to English-language Wikipedia only. So, I am only discussing behavioral pattern of user DIREKTOR and my personal problem with this user is much larger than the scope of my topic ban. PANONIAN 18:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Here's a link to PANONIAN being topic banned. Right above he admits he doesn't care about the incident that was reported here. He tries to qualify it, but clearly he is continuing the behavior that lead to the topic ban. Look at the discussion and you'll see part of the problem with PANONIAN was that he was trying to get users editing articles about Serbian history that he disagreed with blocked by any means necessary including DIREKTOR. He may not be editing the articles any more but he is still trying to get the same editors blocked by any means necessary. His edits here are clearly related to the conflicts that got him blocked and it is my view that this is a violation of his topic ban. AniMate 18:48, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fine - let just block me, I am always guilty, right? (not to mention that I neither opened this thread, neither it was opened against me, but I now see that sanctions against me would be the most likely outcome). After this, I lost the last drop of faith in administrators in English Wikipedia. Do what ever you want. PANONIAN 19:29, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
disgusting
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is it acceptable for users to broadcast another users ip details and place of work? Privacy should be respected but here users Bjmullan and Murry1975 have gone too far [15]. This is absolutely disgusting. Also suspicious that Bjmullan went on a 2 year sabbatical between their 1st and 2nd edits and their 3rd edit was to create a new Wikipedia page.a very ambitious edit, unless they had been editing under another account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.199.195 (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- I love IP editors, and support their right to edit whilst not logged in or without creating an account. However, I do not see a discussion of IPs used to edit (including WHOIS information) to be per se WP:OUTING, let alone actionable by administrator intervention. Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Adding, it is common practice to add such templates as SharedIP and the somewhat friendlier ISP test to IP's talk pages, and that is not WP:OUTING. To say nothing of the fact that such information if available by easy to use links on the bottom of IP talk pages. JoeSperrazza (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which blocked editor are you? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's Factocop and there is an outstanding SPI waiting on him. As for outing, the only person who did that was Factocop himself here. Bjmullan (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- You have to understand that Bjmullan seems to link every IP involved with NI related pages to be factocop. I do believe a user's privacy should be respected and that they should not be threatened by the prospect of getting into trouble at work by another user. That to me is completely unacceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.199.195 (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- No - then whomever using the IP address(es) should use a registered account.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- no point. I have seen users with accounts also accused by Bjmullan as being factocop. It's pretty obvious that Bjmullan has held another account. Where did he go for 2 years? Creating a completely new page with their 3rd edit is super ambitious even if there is a template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.199.195 (talk) 19:18, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- No - then whomever using the IP address(es) should use a registered account.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
It would be difficult for any user, especially a novice. Where did you disappear to for 2 years? Did you edit under an IP? I think it also uncivil to tell me to "fu€k 0ff" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.199.195 (talk) 19:41, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yup, evading a valid block and wasting the Wikipedia community's time sure is (as per the section heading) "disgusting". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
re: disgusting
Please can a competent admin re-open the above topic as there appears to be a misjustice. There is no proof of socking so why close the issue? User:Bjmullan has failed to declare a previous account, has abused Wikipedia.policy and abusive.language. aswell as outing a user and their IP address details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.250 (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not outing if the information is available at the bottom of the page with one click. You don't want your IP or who its registered to known, register an account. And calling the closing admin incompetent is a WP:NPA violation and bound to bring WP:BOOMERANGs if you keep it up. Heiro 22:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Failing to declare a previous account isn't a breach of policy. If it was wp:CLEANSTART would be totally out of order. You've alleged that Bjmullan is a returning editor, and he has denied that. I'd suggest that you either come up with something with evidence of misbehaviour, or you stop making those allegations. ϢereSpielChequers 23:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Protection on an AFD?
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I noticed a protection on this deletion discussion. While I will not name names, I am very concerned for other anonymous IP contributors to these discussions. The person responsible for protecting the discussion blocked the lastest contributor without any evidence to suggest linking to another account. I am very surprised a trusted user would act this way. The fact that he can't stand IP users is one thing, but to block them without is another thing. I therefore am asking for input on this person's behaviour. UsedBeen20 (talk) 00:26, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please see Special:Contributions/107.16.78.114 for more info. UsedBeen20 (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Truly challenging: admins can't do a thing unless you a) name names, and b) advise the party that you're complaining about. Of course, you also need to show that you have tried to resolve the issue directly with that person first as well. I see none of this - just a drive-by (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I find the source of this complaint much, much more interesting than the target. CU? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Already filed.[16] Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is there any chance they're related to the subject of the article, or even the subject himself? Do we know his views on having a BLP on wikipedia? I'm thinking out aloud because I know that could never be answered "yes" here anyway (could be answered no though!) Egg Centric 01:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I believe that reality TV show contestants are generally not notable. Second, I already was checked, so a CU (IP lookup) won't link me to the suspecious IP address. I only posted because MM's recent behaviour is a bit amateurish for someone who can look up IP addresses. UsedBeen20 (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is there any chance they're related to the subject of the article, or even the subject himself? Do we know his views on having a BLP on wikipedia? I'm thinking out aloud because I know that could never be answered "yes" here anyway (could be answered no though!) Egg Centric 01:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Already filed.[16] Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I find the source of this complaint much, much more interesting than the target. CU? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Returning sock of a BANNED editor???
- Chaosnamegoofie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Patrolling Admin/Checkuser, please see this edit for further details. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 01:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- User(s) blocked. Reaper Eternal tied up all the loose ends. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Administrator John repeatedly forcing preferred versions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
John (talk · contribs), an administrator, has been in a slow edit war at Adam Yauch for some time now regarding a category. John repeatedly asserts that the category Category: American Jews cannot be used because according to BLPCAT the person has to self identify. The problem is that he complained to the BLP Noticeboard and was basically told that BLPCAT doesn't apply for various reasons (mainly because none of Yauch's living relatives are adversely affected by us putting him in that category). John continues to stick his fingers in his ears over this issue, and has been in a slow edit war at this and a couple other pages regarding this category. He also claimed in his most recent summary that my addition of the category was unsourced, however multiple sources have been provided on the talk page over and over again. Whenever one of his arguments is satisfied by sources or by him being told BLPCAT does not apply, he keeps engaging in circular logic by once again going back to the other claim (either BLPCAT or referencing) to gridlock the discussion. He is also implying that people who want to include this category are anti-semites/racists as he keeps inappropriately referencing yellow badge and single drop rule. John is engaging in policy wonkery and continually using his discredited arguments to force his preferred versions. I believe this behavior, from an administrator no less, should be reviewed and dealt with. Night Ranger (talk) 01:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wouldn't this be better served at WP:BLPN? It isn't an "incident" (ie: ANI) as much as a content dispute with BLP implications. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- John already posted there some time ago. He was told BLPCAT did not apply and the discussion there died out. He is playing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and continues to invoke BLPCAT. The content dispute is not at issue, the issue is his behavior, which is unbecoming an administrator. Night Ranger (talk) 02:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can we get some diffs of both the edit warring and the usage of inappropriate terms on his part? A link to the BLPN discussion would be nice too. SilverserenC 05:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently Yauch was a practicing Buddhist. Calling him an American Buddhist might be acceptable. Labeling him a Jew sounds like an agenda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- However, some sources say otherwise, such as this Jewish Week article. Not to mention Forbes. Mayhaps he is ethnically Jewish, but religiously Buddhist? SilverserenC 05:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Standard practice here is not to label someone's ethnic group unless he's notable for being in that ethnic group. Woody Allen qualifies, for example. Yauch? Doesn't look like it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Except the Beastie Boys were known for being Jewish kids. Hot Stop 05:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a number of sources discussing how the Beastie Boys as a whole were known for being Jewish and it was one of the early reasons why they became noticed by the public. SilverserenC 05:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sources would be good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Like this Jewish Chronicle article? Good enough? I mean, "The Beastie Boys paved the way for today’s Jewish hip hoppers who don’t have to come from the ghetto to be ‘for real’" and "they put Jews at the forefront of the genre in its early days" is clear enough. SilverserenC 06:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Or this Forbes one "They were three white Jewish kids from Brooklyn"? There are more in Yauch's article too. Hot Stop 06:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then John had best explain his actions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is curious, though, that the Rolling Stone obit didn't say a word about it.[17] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The New York Times says something about it in passing, well into the article,[18] so it doesn't sound as if their being considered Jewish was any big deal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- This discussion would seem to belong at the RFC or elsewhere in the article talk page not here. But as I understand it, as with nearly every single dispute of this sort I've seen in recent times, the dispute is whether to label him 'X (American) Jews' or 'X (American) people of Jewish descent', so it's more complicated then simply whether there are sourced that label him Jewish in some fashion. Nil Einne (talk) 08:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I see from the talk page and the BLPN discussion. More specifically, it seems to be about what Category:American Jews encompasses, since the American Jews article includes both religion and ethnicity and Yauch is clearly ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish (he's Buddhist). Therein lies the confusion. Of course, if said category applies to both, then the Jewish descent cat is pretty redundant in its use here (though there are certainly people of Jewish descent who would not be categorized as religiously or ethnically Jewish), so it gets even more complicated there. Judaism discussions always end up being a mess. *sighs* SilverserenC 09:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- This discussion would seem to belong at the RFC or elsewhere in the article talk page not here. But as I understand it, as with nearly every single dispute of this sort I've seen in recent times, the dispute is whether to label him 'X (American) Jews' or 'X (American) people of Jewish descent', so it's more complicated then simply whether there are sourced that label him Jewish in some fashion. Nil Einne (talk) 08:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The New York Times says something about it in passing, well into the article,[18] so it doesn't sound as if their being considered Jewish was any big deal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is curious, though, that the Rolling Stone obit didn't say a word about it.[17] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then John had best explain his actions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sources would be good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Standard practice here is not to label someone's ethnic group unless he's notable for being in that ethnic group. Woody Allen qualifies, for example. Yauch? Doesn't look like it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- However, some sources say otherwise, such as this Jewish Week article. Not to mention Forbes. Mayhaps he is ethnically Jewish, but religiously Buddhist? SilverserenC 05:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently Yauch was a practicing Buddhist. Calling him an American Buddhist might be acceptable. Labeling him a Jew sounds like an agenda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can we get some diffs of both the edit warring and the usage of inappropriate terms on his part? A link to the BLPN discussion would be nice too. SilverserenC 05:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- John already posted there some time ago. He was told BLPCAT did not apply and the discussion there died out. He is playing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and continues to invoke BLPCAT. The content dispute is not at issue, the issue is his behavior, which is unbecoming an administrator. Night Ranger (talk) 02:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- As with Silver seren, I would say some diffs would be helpful. There seems to be an ongoing RFC on the content dispute and I only see two edits to the article from John, nearly 2 weeks apart so I'm not seeing anything needing administrative attention. Even if there was some poor behaviour on the part of John (I'm not commenting one way or the other), the level would suggest at most a RFC/U. Nil Einne (talk) 08:22, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The relevant archived BLPN discussion: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive152#Adam_Yauch. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where he may have abused the admin tools. I see complaints against him as an editor but unless tool abuse may be shown there is no need to review his actions here on this board. This looks like a content dispute.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 11:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm sick of this. Bunch of editors who don't have a clue are screwing around with a BLP of a politician, and admin intervention is required. If I weren't invoooooolved, I'd block one of them, warn another, revert the article to Bbb23's version, and lock it. But that's just me. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 03:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have just reverted a third time. There is broad agreement from some seasoned editors that the "fair" version from the "unbiased editors" is a BLP violation. Those "unbiased editors", you won't be surprised to hear, are SPAs with more fire than knowledge of our guidelines. In the meantime the article has been nominated at AfD. Drmies (talk) 04:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've full protected for 10 days because of the ongoing edit warring and likely BLP issues. If another administrator or two would like to sort out whether there are clear BLP violations by one or more editors, they should feel free to do so, and then lift protection at any point when there seems to be some progress on keeping this article on the "good" side of the BLP policy. If a CU is needed for any possible socks, feel free to ping me. Risker (talk) 04:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Attack account
- Anderson Cooper Exposer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Already reported to AIV. The only reason I brought it here is that it also smells a lot like someone's sock.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:01, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Blocked and locked, but I don't have local CU. MBisanz talk 04:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Actually non-SUL, but thanks.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:04, 20 May 2012 (UTC)- Actually, it's also oversighted, so no log entries. I've been told that this is User:Mr. Kruzkin.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Community ban for JIM ME BOY
- JIM ME BOY (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Anderson Cooper Exposer is a sock of this guy. I'm surprised there's no community ban yet.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Extreme vandalism and poor behavior on an article
I know that some of this is stuff that should be reported on the vandalism board, but it looks like the vandalism and bad behavior is so widespread that I thought it should be mentioned here.
I noticed this via the AfD for RINJ (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/RINJ), where user CRINJ (talk · contribs) was posting and stating that they would give out personal information of members of RINJ in order to harass the group members. They have also been vandalizing the article for RINJ. This is so not kosher in so many ways. While I have no opinion about the group (just found out about the group five minutes ago, actually), it doesn't matter what they've done or not done. Vandalism and harassment is not condoned here on Wikipedia, nor are we a place to recruit people. I'd just like an admin to keep an eye on the article, if possible.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Notified. CRINJ should be blocked on username, and the BLP violations at the AfD.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Instantly blockworthy for this piece of garbage. Doc talk 06:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Blocked by Gfoley4.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ongoing soapboxing and battleground mentality here in article space. Heiro 06:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Anil99seo
- Anil99seo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Zylog Systems Limited (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
I have warned Anil99seo at least twice about the clear conflict of interests they have regarding Zylog Systems Limited, a company in which they are employed (per their own user page). The editor is a WP:SPA and the edits made are very much to glorify the company, against WP:NPOV. In addition, external links which I keep removing (mostly per WP:ELNO #19) are re-introduced with no discussion or explanation. The editor will not discuss their edits or conflict. Some intervention is required to make the editor at least discuss the matter. --Muhandes (talk) 05:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Indefinitely blocked until this person can show a basic understanding of WP:EL; I've got to say, having SEO at the end of your name is a very good way to get you blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Prophet of Hell
From the very first interaction, extreme hostility and incivility ([19]). He's been warned and blocked for this WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality just a few weeks ago ([20]), but apparently didn't learn anyhting. Constantine ✍ 06:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- And he continues, this time in German ([21]). Constantine ✍ 07:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Indef-blocked. I would have looked past the edit-warring and the personal attacks, and the fact that he did all that immediately after coming back from the last block should not be held against him, but getting all the "ß" and "ss" and the commas wrong when writing German is really unforgivable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Krod Mandoon
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Krod Mandoon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole
This account appears to be yet another sockpuppet of the "de facto" banned user Echigo mole/A.K.Nole. That user has previously disrupted the same arbcom page this year with the sockpuppets William Hickey, The Wozbongulator and Reginald Fortune. Since their editing has now become even more disruptive and the response at the SPI page has been slow, please can an administrator block this account? It was created in 2009: their second and subsequent edits have only been trolling on arbitration pages since yesterday. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I'm afraid we cannot do much, given that the community doesn't want him banned; perhaps it's better that you perhaps talk to the user and see what happens. --MuZemike 07:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Huh? Who said the community doesn't want him banned? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, Courcelles blocked him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) No community ban has ever been suggested. Courcelles has just indefinitely blocked him as a sockpuppet of Echigo mole: many thanks, Courcelles. Mathsci (talk) 07:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, there is a ban discussion right now on AN, but some of us have been saying it's unnecessary because the de facto ban already is a valid ban anyway. Don't listen to MuZemike, he's just WP:POINT-trolling. Don't know why he does that, but he's been doing it on a couple of sock/ban issues during the last months. MuZemike, cut it out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'll stop once the community collectively gets serious about their bans and whether or not they want to enforce them. --MuZemike 07:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Look, I'm with you on the need to enforce bans, but your WP:POINT violations are disruptive. Please stop it, or the next time you disrupt a discussion in this way I'll have to block you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'll stop once the community collectively gets serious about their bans and whether or not they want to enforce them. --MuZemike 07:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, there is a ban discussion right now on AN, but some of us have been saying it's unnecessary because the de facto ban already is a valid ban anyway. Don't listen to MuZemike, he's just WP:POINT-trolling. Don't know why he does that, but he's been doing it on a couple of sock/ban issues during the last months. MuZemike, cut it out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) No community ban has ever been suggested. Courcelles has just indefinitely blocked him as a sockpuppet of Echigo mole: many thanks, Courcelles. Mathsci (talk) 07:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I honestly have to ask: where the hell are the clerks? The requests for amendment page seems to be completely unclerked at the moment; we have obvious sockpuppets repeatedly posting and topic-banned editors repeatedly posting. I've already asked the clerks to intervene but I've not had any response, nor any action from the clerks. Are they all on holiday or something? Prioryman (talk) 08:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Nirzhorshovon
- Nirzhorshovon (talk · · contribs · page moves · edit summaries · count · api · logs · block log · email)
Just wanted to put this new user on others' radar. They seem to be confused about editing. - jc37 10:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Currently got an issue with this user causing vandalism on Wikipedia:Guidance for younger editors--Mjs1991 (talk) 11:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hard to call it vandalism, as it simply appears to be not understanding Wikipedia. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Requesting ban on user User:Sandy94kumar
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user User:Sandy94kumar has made several commits to such pages as Yamuna Nagar, List of people from Haryana that don't comply to wiki's guidelines. The user has continuously tried to advertise a local business operation through a series of edits on these pages. In fact, the user has been warned of this couple of times in consecutive months on user's talk page, though the behavior still continues. So, i request a ban on the user so prevent further vandalism. Mittgaurav (talk) 11:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Due to his occasional editing pattern and clear WP:SPAM, I've given a 1-month block - hopefully they will talk (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you BWilkins. Mittgaurav (talk) 12:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Snakehands
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Could someone take a look at the edits of Snakehands (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and determine what action is needed for this editor? Apart from approximately four edits this year, every single other one has been to edit war over changing a section title on Diane Abbott to non-neutral and quite probably BLP violating ones. Thanks. 2 lines of K303 12:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The user has already been blocked by Dennis Brown for 24 hours for violation of WP:BLP. Dipankan (Have a chat?) 13:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Blocked Edits like this [22] and [23] make me think they don't understand what "neutral" means, and they seem to have a clear agenda that is inconsistent with the goals of building an encyclopedia. The fact that they have added the term "racist remarks" as a header multiple times tells me they don't understand our policies. This is clearly a BLP violation, and flagrant enough that I have blocked them for 24 hours. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 13:30, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. 2 lines of K303 13:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
can somebody please remove a unfair template from the userpage
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there is a template about reverting everything at user "c h a o s n a m e" user page (the one with a information symbol) it is unfair to the user as no other banned user page has that, so am asking can somebody please remove it 66.225.195.47 (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- There are other banned user pages that have it too: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:BannedMeansBanned --92.6.200.56 (talk) 13:49, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Denied Template is consistent with our methods and goals. Why this matters to you, I have no clue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Unsure how to deal with a grossly uncivil IP user
IP user 71.164.252.201 (talk) made this grossly uncivil comment on Cobi's talk page: [24] after ClueBot NG warned him for vandalism: [25] How should I deal with it: user warning template, request for immediate block, request for RevDel, what? ChromaNebula (talk) 15:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Done Blocked 48 hours and deleted, I think (I'm still new to revdel, so check me). Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Starkiller88
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Starkiller88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a self-confessed vandal who has been involved in a long-term campaign of adding deliberate misinformation to a number of articles associated with Fobos-Grunt (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Alexander V. Zakharov (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Anonymous (group) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). I also believe that he has been using IP sockpuppets to avoid scrutiny, is engaging in serious disruption to make a point, has made several potentially libellous edits; accusing scientists and engineers on the Fobos-Grunt project of treason, particularly Zakharov, who he also claimed would die in 2015, or "be disappeared".
Between late January and early April, a large number of IP users began adding unreferenced OR, speculative and POV statements to Fobos-Grunt.[26][27] In April the page was semi-protected after the issue was raised at AN3 by BatteryIncluded (talk · contribs). At around that time, Starkiller turned up, and started making similar edits to those the IPs had been. Given that his account was blocked repeatedly a few years ago for persistent OR and disruptive editing, I believe that before semi-protection Starkiller was logging out to add OR so that it couldn't be linked back to his main account so easily. 119.40.118.34 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), one of the more active IP users, has the same editing pattern; editing articles related to Fobos-Grunt and Anonymous, and also changing the word "planet" to "exoplanet" in articles relating to several fictional worlds (edits by Starkiller and the IP). Most of the other IP addresses involved were in the 115.133.*.* range. I did a whois check on a few of them, and all the 115-block addresses I checked were registered to Telekom Malaysia, with 119.40.118.34 being a Malaysian university, so there does seem to be geographic correlation between them. On several occasions he has forgotten to log back in when replying to messages, such as here, proving that he has been editing from 115.135.144.255 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which also tracks back to Telekom Malaysia.
Initially, he seems to have been insistent on adding claims that the Fobos-Grunt mission would not be repeated, and that it's project team had been disbanded, based on speculation that Russia was about to join the European ExoMars programme.[28][29] After a while, this effectively came to pass, so he started taking the opposite position; that the mission would be repeated, based on the opinion of a single scientist.[30] His claims were repeatedly removed by a number of editors, however he kept adding them, and attempts to discuss the issue at Talk:Fobos-Grunt proved fruitless. Eventually, BatteryIncluded made a series of posts on Starkiller's talk page in an effort to get him to stop claiming that the repeat mission was planned, however this simply caused Starkiller to start claiming at every possible opportunity and with as much emphasis as possible, that there would never be another mission to Phobos, at any point in the future.[31][32][33].
In addition to the claims about the scientists behind the mission being wanted for treason, he started adding claims about a planned Anonymous operation, entitled "Phobos-Gone" aimed at taking down the Fobos-Grunt website, and conducting vigilante acts to "bring those responsible for the failure to justice". He added the claim, accompanied by one or two references which linked to user-generated content on Pastebin, to Fobos-Grunt[34][35], Alexander V. Zakharov, Lavochkin, Timeline of events associated with Anonymous, Anonymous Operation and Anonymous (group)[36][37][38][39]. He also created four redirects relating to the alleged campaign, before admitting during the resulting RfD discussion that he made the whole thing up in retaliation for a mildly incivil post that BatteryIncluded made on his talk page after he had repeatedly stonewalled more polite requests to stop being disruptive. Making this point also appears to have been the cause of his insistence that there would never be another mission to Phobos. I am particularly concerned with the way he has since been pursuing this matter off-wiki, creating accounts on Blogspot, Twitter and Youtube with which he appears to be inciting criminal and vigilante activities against third parties in order to make the claims he is adding to these articles genuine.
He has been repeatedly asked to stop, but he just apologises, waits a day or two, and then starts editing again. I have sent him final warnings for both disruptive editing and long-term vandalism, which he has ignored, so I believe this now needs to be dealt with by an administrator. --W. D. Graham 15:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It may be imbedded somewhere up in Graham's detailed post above, but people should really view this video added by Starkiller (and later correctly removed). Although I understand the serious disruption to the project caused by Starkiller, the video is at the same time a hoot. As for the merits of Graham's request for "dealing" with Starkiller, sanctions are, I hate to use the word obviously, warranted.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:34, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Digging just a little makes it pretty obvious that this person is not here to build an encyclopedia. I would lean toward doing an indef and just be done here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 16:10, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, blocking indef now. I'm not interested in having a drawn-out conversation over whether he's been "warned enough", the intent here is very clear. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Once you've used this [40] as a reliable source, you've shown you don't belong here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, blocking indef now. I'm not interested in having a drawn-out conversation over whether he's been "warned enough", the intent here is very clear. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Long-time user blocked with no discussion
My main accounts, User:Chutznik and User:Shalom Yechiel, were blocked with no discussion whatsoever for reciting the real name of a user whose real name was already well known. This indefinite block for a user who has more than 30,000 productive edits to Wikipedia, and created about 400 new articles, was completely inappropriate and should be reversed. Throwaway777 (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not only is it an indefinite block, it's also a ban. Therefore, this account is getting blocked, and your only choice is to appeal to the arbitration committee.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no intention of respecting this illegitimate ban. First of all, bans are to be imposed by the community, not unilaterally. I demand a full discussion appropriate for a uuser with my extensive tenure. Second, if the ban stands, I will evade it with my existing sleeper sock which has more than 100 edits. Throwaway777 (talk) 17:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on the matter, but I will implement the technical aspect of the aforementioned blocks. Regardless of whether or not the block was "legitimate", those accounts are blocked, and therefore this one will be blocked. And so now it is. Do not evade blocks. If you want to appeal them, then do so, probably most appropriately with WP:BASC if the normal unblock methods are not working for you. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bravo. Utterly brilliant move by Throwaway777. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can somebody explain where this "ban" comes from? I see no ban discussion and nothing, not even a block message. The indef block may well be legitimate, but I really don't see how a ban could be created in this way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not listed at Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users either. Something fishy is going on here. Monty845 17:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yeah, I feel we're missing something here. GiantSnowman 17:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I make no comment on the ban (or even if it exists). My thought process was simple: Blocked, blocked, not blocked. Make them all blocked. Done. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yeah, I feel we're missing something here. GiantSnowman 17:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not listed at Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users either. Something fishy is going on here. Monty845 17:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no intention of respecting this illegitimate ban. First of all, bans are to be imposed by the community, not unilaterally. I demand a full discussion appropriate for a uuser with my extensive tenure. Second, if the ban stands, I will evade it with my existing sleeper sock which has more than 100 edits. Throwaway777 (talk) 17:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
For the record, I've filed this user's first and probably not last SPI. Would like a CheckUser to investigate.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I know nothing about this, but can find neither a community "ban" discussion nor an arbcom decision "banning" these accounts, notwithstanding that they've been described as such on the user pages by Raulxx (can't remember the numbers).Bali ultimate (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 4)Even if there is no ban, we can create one right now.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Formalize ban for Chutznik
- Chutznik (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Since I see no discussion saying he's banned for real, let's rectify this. !vote below.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Possible sockpuppetry and/or meatpuppetry at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shardul Pandey
There has been an insanely high influx of ip editors at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shardul Pandey. While it is possible that the editors are just so interested in the article that they feel the need to argue for its inclusion, I believe it is sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. All of the ip's are from Karnataka, Bangalore (found using Geolocate). In addition, there was a rapid spike in page views when the article was listed for deletion. I considered waiting for the closing administrator to review it and make his own decision on the status of the ip's, I also considered starting an SPI. Instead, I came here because an ip has accused me of being canvassed into the discussion [41]. I was never contacted about the discussion, I found it through WP:AFD and I was the first editor to take part. What is the appropriate action to take here? Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)