→Nordichammer: I am opening this now there are still issue who was behind this account if some admin/cu want to close it go ahead. |
Undid revision 492677201 by Shrike (talk) Mustihussain/Altetendekrabbe is an steablished editor |
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The discussion at [[Talk:British Pakistanis]] has become more than a little abusive even after I fully protected the article for 7 days. I would appreciate the eyes of my fellow admins in it. I have added a general warning to those involved who are making personal attacks as they seem unacceptable and extreme enough to me. Considering the approach recently taken with AndyTheGrump, who is also involved on this page in inflaming the discussion, I am aware that my views on what counts as abuse that breaches NPA might be more sensitive than that of other admins or the general community who may see this as 'banter'. Thanks --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 08:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
The discussion at [[Talk:British Pakistanis]] has become more than a little abusive even after I fully protected the article for 7 days. I would appreciate the eyes of my fellow admins in it. I have added a general warning to those involved who are making personal attacks as they seem unacceptable and extreme enough to me. Considering the approach recently taken with AndyTheGrump, who is also involved on this page in inflaming the discussion, I am aware that my views on what counts as abuse that breaches NPA might be more sensitive than that of other admins or the general community who may see this as 'banter'. Thanks --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 08:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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===Nordichammer=== |
===Nordichammer=== |
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{{archivetop|status=indefinitely blocked|result=troll only account blocked, let's move on <small>[[User talk:Nobody Ent|Nobody Ent]]</small> 10:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC)}} |
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:[[User:Nordichammer]] - This sensitive issue is being inflamed by this vile user. Please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAnkhMorpork&diff=492664081&oldid=492612028 this]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 09:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
:[[User:Nordichammer]] - This sensitive issue is being inflamed by this vile user. Please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAnkhMorpork&diff=492664081&oldid=492612028 this]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 09:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::Some kind of disruptive user that want to make [[WP:POINT]] that should be blocked could someone do a CU?--[[User:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 09:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
::Some kind of disruptive user that want to make [[WP:POINT]] that should be blocked could someone do a CU?--[[User:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 09:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::I've indefed {{userlinks|Nordichammer}} for now. Sock or not, his edits are unacceptable. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 09:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
:::::I've indefed {{userlinks|Nordichammer}} for now. Sock or not, his edits are unacceptable. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 09:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::In light of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AElen_of_the_Roads&diff=492666394&oldid=492662563 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=492666847 this] which seek to portray me as a racist by guilt through [[Association fallacy|association]], I request a CU on this user.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 09:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
::::::In light of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AElen_of_the_Roads&diff=492666394&oldid=492662563 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=492666847 this] which seek to portray me as a racist by guilt through [[Association fallacy|association]], I request a CU on this user.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 09:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 11:31, 15 May 2012
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
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More disruption involving MMA
User:Agent00f
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Firstly Agent00f (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is using Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability having derailed the last attempt to reach a proposal for an RfC by filibustering in the process driving off one editor he is now using it as his own persoal soap box and forum. See this edit. Mtking (edits) 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- For some background, this is a topic which has seen failure after failure in all previous attempts to be resolved for many months. The blindingly obvious common denominator in every single case are 3 editors: Mtking, TreyGeek, and Hasteur. Together they collude and dominate the discussion to the exclusion of actual contributors/users of the pages in question, then intimidate anyone who dares oppose or even question their methodology. This bred the animosity and untenable situation we find ourselves today: even though there are tens of thousands of users, hundreds of page contributors (dozens of which are were active in the discussion before), and many if not most have left in sheer disgust. None outside of their in-group have any trust or faith in them, and their string of failures are a stain on wikipedia's image. Simply observe Mtking's behavior below toward yet another user they've managed to provoke.
- As to the issue at hand, I am not at all blocking their effort to repeat history, but instead only wish to introduce an alternative approach which is open to other participants. They can certainly choose not to participate, and we can move this new effort to another page if need be (several options exist). They of course see this as a threat to their dominion and engage in an active campaign to stop anyone who challenge their monopoly on power. If I just move the call for participation elsewhere, they'll simply retaliate elsewhere, so there's no safe harbor where another approach can at least be attempted. I strongly believe an effort which is not their direct control has at least a moderate chance of success, and the powers at be should consider all the other page contributors' wishes to resolve the matter when all previous attempt with our common denominators have failed miserably. Agent00f (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I request that you strike your assertion regarding the collusion and assertion regarding the common denominator. That is an assumption of bad faith on the behalf of editors in good standing with wikipedia whom have been attempting to apply the policy and standards as they exisist today. Long blocks of soapboxing and proposals which are directly contrary to the established policies are not collaberative, but disruptive. Hasteur (talk) 05:46, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no reason to strike assertions that are objectively true and supported by empirical evidence. As just one example, in the last failed AN[I] attempt against me, after a round of intimidation Hasteur contacted the select group to provide (obviously biased) supporting statements. Not a single other participant on the talk page was contacted despite his claim of "neutrality". This is recorded in wiki for posterity. Singling out those who are not as well coordinated as them seems to be their modus operandi, as is clearly evident right here.
- Also note that Hasteur continues to slam others for "assuming bad faith", when no assumption is necessary given copious empirical evidence. As further evidence of the tight knit nature of this clique, observe that TreyGeek immediately re-reverted when I tried to put back the comments that Mtking blatantly erased from the talk page. This is a consistent and repeated rule rather than the exception. Hasteur doesn't deny that my asserts are true, only feigning righteous indignation and wishing to strike them from the record regardless (and this is far from the first time). Again consistent with the assertion that they expect a monopoly on power. Agent00f (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Note: Agent00f (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has now gone over the WP:3RR line at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability, I have filed a report at WP:3RR/N.Mtking (edits) 07:37, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't know this rule exists and I've reverted last change. This action in itself is forum-shopping FORUMSHOP, while a link was provide, they're clearly the same issue and no link was provide back here even though it was created later. Notable given edit warring is more straightforward offense (quick block action).
As more evidence of the persistent lack of ethics noted on this page, Mtking's now trying to cover his/her deletion tactics by posting a specious AN, then offering to withdraw it only if they agree to the wholesale deletion.
User:Mtking and User:Hasteur
Many obvious violations by Mtking:
- The "edit war" AN just above was a consequence of blatant whole revertion/deletion (including unrelated comments) in violation of WP:TALKO editing rules. By sharing 3 reverts between 2 editors who work closely together (simply look at history for evidence), they can successfully flaunted 3RR, leaving the status of any new material in doubt and successful blocking contributions of any one person they choose. General intimidation.
- The collusion between Mtking, Hasteur, and Treygeek to single out, harass, and drive off (esp new) users who do not wish them to dominate the discussion constitutes blatant BITE on all their parts. Using intimidation strategies in turn against people less versed in the long list of rules. This has apparently gone on for months.
- Just one specific case out of many by Hasteur is these "final warning" threats. Clear case of WP:Harassment. When they're brought to attention of broader community, he/she further ratchets up the threat level to force others to immediately apologize "or else". This is recorded at the MMA talk page. This resulted in WP:CANVASING, a very embarrassing ANI on their part, but this obviously continues unabated.
- Flooding of my user talk page by the lot above + Newmanoconnor (who just joined their gang a week ago), another case of #User_space_harassment. They never reply with any specifics when asked for evidence of violation. Seems the strategy is to flood for stuff they can't get away with at AN, and forums shop on anything borderline.
- Blatant ADMINSHOP given that multiple admins have already been involved in this general situation (including previous ANI against me which was closed with no action despite blatant WP:CANVASSING by User:Hasteur) and the common denominator for months in all these problems remains Mtking, Hasteur, and Treygeek.
- This whole AN is done in bad faith, no assumption necessary. The talk page in question has long devolved into the state it's in, and my edit was only to get normative processes back into order by analyzing previous failures and trying to avoid them in the future. Even the former admin was soapboxing. Nothing but desperate last ditch attempt at ADMINSHOP.
- One of the comments on the page above was "closed" completely at odds with closure rules, pretending to be the admin of the place despite having no authoritative power.
- In another blatant violation of ADMIN SHOPPING elsewhere, all 3 have conducted multiple aggressive campaigns of AfD's on entire sets of MMA pages even during collaboration with page's contributors, often voting in concord between themselves. Simply look at their histories, it's nothing but trying to trash MMA related pages and hunt down MMA contributors. They're not always successful, but doesn't stop the "try try again" approach. Even minor successes can break a set of page's cohesion, which is why they keep trying instead of waiting for any kind of resolution. This kind of SHOPPING is clearly an asymmetric "terrorism" against a whole wiki community since it costs them nothing while hugely disrupting others.
Agent00f (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f named me in this subsection and did not notify me. Again, we have the same demonstration of lack of good faith. Hasteur (talk) 15:47, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hasteur is already subscribed to this, aka already knows this AN exists. Note timestamp on his/her direct reply to me above. BTW, I'm also not going to spam TreyGeek's talk since he also knows this exist. Personally I think spamming someone's page with AN notices when they already know is close to User space harassment. Agent00f (talk) 21:21, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
This list has sat here uncontested for many days. It can only be concluded that any admins who've seen it don't disagree with its claims, yet choose to do nothing about MtKing and Hasteur's behavior regardless. I was blocked by one admin for apparently posting too many claims (ie TLDR: ban, so it's not surprising he/she's yet to reply to any request to explain this odd decision), but no one's addressed these violations above. It's notable that even while this AN section is ongoing, the harassment (Newmanoconnor specifically) on my talk page continues. Agent00f (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Lack of comments does not mean your accusations are uncontested or that anyone agrees with them. You have provided no evidence to back your accusations against any of these editors and your attempt on this page to manufacture consensus from a lack of comments makes it look like you, not they, are the problem. Edward321 (talk) 13:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- The evidence is linked above where convenient, often by Mtking himself. Some are simply self-explanatory like the aggregate history of two users. The talk page where some of it resides is a mess, but note that none of the many users from there familiar with the intimate details deny any of this occurred. In every case below where someone asked for specifics, I've provided it to their satisfaction. Please be specific about your own personal curiosities.
- As for consensus, I've simply listed the facts of the case, and it's up to others (not me) to use their own reasoning facilities. Note that Treygeek below has vetted the list for factual accuracy and it's been properly amended. Agent00f (talk) 11:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Portillo
Secondly Portillo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is continuing to attack other editors, see this, this and this. Mtking (edits) 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is simply more WP:Harassment by MtKing. Targets pages someone's involved with for deletion (since no sanctions for excessive AfDs, even failed ones), and when they lash back, tries to drive them out. Just look at Mtking's history, it's purely destructive, and it's daily routine. Agent00f (talk) 11:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
The behavior of these editors has been incredibly disruptive and confusing. Interesting how UFC articles were doing perfectly fine for years, enjoyed by thousands of visitors. Until someone suddenly noticed that UFC events are against Wikipedia policy. Took a while to figure that out. Portillo (talk) 12:53, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is not now, nor has ever been, a defense to violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines consisting of "It's been up for years and no one noticed before now that they were in violation." Quite aside from that standards change, and that handwaving was done in the cowboy days that don't pass muster now, there is no statute of limitations here.
That being said, those links were unacceptable personal attacks in violation of WP:NPA, pure and simple, and it is curious that someone who has been on Wikipedia as long as you have might not understand that. Strange though it might appear to some that an editor could think so without some unwholesome bias, it is quite possible to believe that a particular type of article fails to pass notability muster (and, indeed, continue to hold it) without having a "personal agenda" or being on a "witch hunt." Ravenswing 04:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- I believe the perfectly coherent defense is the 5th and last pillar of wiki: it is not a bureaucracy. This means that while following rules are convenient for daily operations, rules are not the defining characteristic. The MMA event articles are not some flash by night operation. They've used and appreciated by countless users. They also exist as a coherent and cohesive where it's worth as a whole is significantly diminished with deletion of each election. Without a consistent solution in hand, it's simply reckless (not bold) to allow individual hit-and-run AfDs to ruin a useful resource. Help the topic's long term contributors make it right, instead of capitulating to destructive editor with no stake in the outcome. I hope that someone who has been on Wikipedia as long as you have could understand this. Agent00f (talk) 09:18, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- Funny that, but a consistent solution is at hand: the omnibus yearly articles. (It's not that employing them is an "inconsistent" solution, of course; it's that you don't like them.) That being said, I note that you are perfectly willing to cite rules and policies when they suit your purpose to do so, and this strikes me as another area where you argue policy when you believe it favors your stance, and that policy should be ignored when you believe it doesn't. Moreover, what I note you do not attempt to rebut are your unacceptable personal attacks ... unless you believe that falls under IAR as well.
That being said, there's a .sig I use on VBulletin-based boards which applies: "It's not that I don't understand your position. It's that I don't agree with your position." Ravenswing 02:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- Their design is incoherent, user unfriendly, and aesthetically terrible. I've gone over the details at length on the omnibus, but I see that you've managed to understand the specifics even without knowing anything about the subject. More importantly, because of this, nobody in the actual audience for the rules and pages likes them in any way. You can of course "disagree", but unfortunately factual reality isn't very considerate about this type of opinion. Agent00f (talk) 08:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, you seem to be accusing me of hypocrisy. Please cite some evidence of this, or at least let me now if asking for citation is against wiki policy since these types of requests never seem to get fulfilled. If it's simply your "opinion", not meant to reflect factual reality, please note that in the statement to avoid confusion, thanks. Also, the only reason the sections above were written is because it's unfortunate reality that that idiotic AN's often get results. Not my rule, but we're in a place where it happens nonetheless. Agent00f (talk) 10:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Funny that, but a consistent solution is at hand: the omnibus yearly articles. (It's not that employing them is an "inconsistent" solution, of course; it's that you don't like them.) That being said, I note that you are perfectly willing to cite rules and policies when they suit your purpose to do so, and this strikes me as another area where you argue policy when you believe it favors your stance, and that policy should be ignored when you believe it doesn't. Moreover, what I note you do not attempt to rebut are your unacceptable personal attacks ... unless you believe that falls under IAR as well.
Prayer for relief
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As an editor who has been around and around the bush with the various SPAs that show up, disrupt all forward momentum on developing a workable solution to the MMA article space and then vanish in the night to leave the crew of regulars to do their best to demonstrate good faith by addressing the points raised by the SPAs, I with to enter a plea for relief. I request an uninvolved administrator (or multiple administrators) to start calling out (and sanctioning) the violations of community policy on all participants in the debate (yes, I open myself up to the calling out). The only way forward is to demonstrate to the externally canvassed (as has been demonstrated multiple times) editors that violations of community policy and standards will no longer be tolerated in the space. Hasteur (talk) 05:43, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- The regulars who don't support this small clique's monopoly over the agenda have long left in disgust. Admin involvement to sanction any remaining dissent from their agenda will only further antagonize a poisonous situation. In the broader picture, it's the MMA page contributors who have to live with the consequences of the group's polarizing choices. They have little interest in the actual subject as evidenced by their terrible design for "omnibus pages" (which they stealth-implemented to the protestations of everyone else), and this means the rest of us will be saddled with the a burden they have no real stake in. This is not only demotivating to the masses but breeds contempt and grounds for future conflict, which is exactly we are trying to avoid. My alternative proposal is simply that those from the sporting community get a chance to create a plan consistent with both wiki rules and also the stakeholders in this case. We can do this among ourselves without issue if only those who consider themselves an executive elite stop actively sabotaging any efforts they can't directly control and manipulate. For a renewed effort to settle this matter, I've spend considerable time developing a process which would prevent take-overs by single parties in decision-making in the hopes that everyone gets a voice. This is a obviously a threat to them, and why they're trying to block me in a panic.
- As to the technical specifics of the matter, most of us want brightline tests for MMA notability, and some level of protection for coherent sets of well formatted/presented and cleanly linked event pages as long as they can fit a minimal template standard. The first issue is obvious. A brightline test would provide clear precedence of what's acceptable. Recall this is the same group that's been actively AfD'ing subject pages at random, even during the "collaborative" process demonstrating bad faith, to gain leverage. A consistent test would sap the power of this tool in the future, so it's against their interests and not an option they'd consider at all. On the second issue, the MMA wiki community has for years used a consistent and well-established format to chain together cohesive sets of events whose value in sum are greater than their parts. Breaking these chains inflict damage well beyond the individual entries and thus why they're the choice of target for this AfD group to gain leverage. We're complete open to more stringent requirements (ie template) to establish brightline tests, but not unexpectedly this minority also won't table this.
- What's been even more frustrating is that these features were presented as appendages to the clique's existing plan (in something of 80-20 split in their favor), and they willfull ignored any mention it. Such is the nature of their attitude of complete domination. Rather than let anyone else present their ideas, this small group has intentionally driven off collaborators. No matter how you look at it, the common denominator of the string of previous failures is still them. Agent00f (talk) 07:00, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, can you link the specific edit where you made a proposal for possible guidelines on the notability of MMA events? I'm sorry, I haven't seen it. I've seen walls of text, much like this one, that don't seem to go anywhere, in my opinion. It is difficult to comment or discuss a proposal that I haven't seen clearly. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Simply search for "I took a look at the legalistic situation a bit more in depth" on the omnibus page. Note that it's bulleted to be easy to see and read. It was of course ignored by the clique.
- More importantly, I believe the approach that you and Mtking took when writing your proposal is already poisoned. The broader community was never consulted, so they have zero incentive to buy in except to capitulate to the constant intimidation and harassment. This is why I proposed a new start with the MMA base onboard from the start. The can choose your plan, or they can choose something else, but they're not forced either way, esp by admin pressure. If it needs to be revised to meet wiki boundaries, so be it, that's their responsibility. It's not your right to take that away from everyone else.
- I've started writing this when Mtking immediately saw it as a threat and started this AN. My first post in a line to be posted over time was wholesale deleted. You know what got deleted given you were part of the 3RR. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I had hoped you would provide an actual link so we could be sure that we are discussing the same thing. I am going to assume you are referring to this edit. If this assumption is correct, the reason I didn't respond is that I didn't understand it. I cannot tell what you want WP:MMAEVENT to read or how it is related to existing Wikipedia policies and guidelines, if at all. --TreyGeek (talk) 23:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about it? Users want something with a given structure. The rules should be written to accommodate this, not the other way around. Maybe it's due to your background, but these are not physically or mathematically defined impermeable constructs to assemble towards an end. They're guidelines which can be simply created out of thin air as long as they're reasonably consistent to the general spirit of wiki. If you don't feel MMAEVENT can be stretched to accomodate, then it doesn't even need to enter into this. Agent00f (talk) 11:34, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- I had hoped you would provide an actual link so we could be sure that we are discussing the same thing. I am going to assume you are referring to this edit. If this assumption is correct, the reason I didn't respond is that I didn't understand it. I cannot tell what you want WP:MMAEVENT to read or how it is related to existing Wikipedia policies and guidelines, if at all. --TreyGeek (talk) 23:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, can you link the specific edit where you made a proposal for possible guidelines on the notability of MMA events? I'm sorry, I haven't seen it. I've seen walls of text, much like this one, that don't seem to go anywhere, in my opinion. It is difficult to comment or discuss a proposal that I haven't seen clearly. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- This seem like blatant ADMIN SHOPPING, esp when factoring in "multiple administrators". Multiple admins have already been involved in this situation (including previous ANI against me which was closed with no action despite blatant CANVASING by Hasteur) and common denominator in all these problems remains the 3 named above. Also, calling out "SPA's" with every breath, who are often the only people left to oppose them, is directly in violation of BITING. Rotating between them to throw the rulebook at newbies to intimidate them also seems like BITEing. Agent00f (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:SPADE says that if you see a SPA acting like a SPA you should call them a SPA. Tagging them as SPAs only allows other editors who aren't as quick on the uptake to see if the actions do warrant further response. Please strike your assertions of canvassing. No action was taken during the last ANI where you believe I canvassed therefore you should WP:DROP the claim. Hasteur (talk) 15:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Again, WP:BITEing with rulebook. Below are the CANVASING links. These are the only people to comment against me on the ANI directly after. These are the named people (Newmanoconnor is newest member and thus not part of the "common denominator", but he's already been WP:Harrassing me in turn with Hasteur right I joined), plus the admin who strongly endorses MtKing + TreyGeek plan (his own words). They are a solid votingblock. The ANI didn't go anywhere, esp after posting these links:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mtking#FYI:_Agent00f
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Newmanoconnor#FYI:_Agent00f
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TreyGeek#FYI:_Agent00f
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dennis_Brown#FYI:_Agent00f
- I have no intention of retracting a 100% factual statement. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:SPADE says that if you see a SPA acting like a SPA you should call them a SPA. Tagging them as SPAs only allows other editors who aren't as quick on the uptake to see if the actions do warrant further response. Please strike your assertions of canvassing. No action was taken during the last ANI where you believe I canvassed therefore you should WP:DROP the claim. Hasteur (talk) 15:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Speaking of "SPA"s, one quick look through all these user's histories clearly indicate that all 3 of them basically try to delete or otherwise disrupt MMA articles for a living. Includes many trips to AN's and votingblock at AfD's. Fortunately there's no wiki rule WP:HYPOCRISY or we wouldn't all be entertained by this ridiculous forum shopping right now. Agent00f (talk) 10:12, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I again ask you to strike the above mentioned assertion. I am not a Single Purpose account. I do not edit exclusively MMA based topics. My edit history very clearly shows a focus on Hell's Kitchen (U.S.) based articles, but no singular purpose in any editing. You on the other hand have exclusively edited the talk page for WP:MMANOT, your talk page, and this noticeboard. Your actions are a textbook definition of a single purpose account. Hasteur (talk) 15:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is the list of the last 500 edits, the vast majority involves destructive tendencies against MMA material/users. Also, you don't "edit exclusively MMA based topics" since you don't edit anything in them at all. Agent00f (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f - statements that people are trying to delete articles "for a living" (implying paid editing) or calling edits "terrorism" are very serious personal attacks and if continued would warrant admin action under WP:NPA. They do not help to reach resolutions of the dispute.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- "for a living" is a figure of speech. If you look through history, the vast majority of their actions are destruction against MMA material. Asymmetric "terrorism" is much more literal. The idea of terrorism is low-cost strikes (which AfD's are, they cost nothing) against higher value targets (which articles in a coherent set are, take out one and the sum suffers). It is also a tool of threat/fear. Note that these AfD's are being fired even during the "consensus" process, implying that they will stop so long as we agree to their plan. This is not unlike bringing guns to arms reduction talks and randomly shooting at people until the other side capitulates. It doesn't always have to hit, but occasionally hitting helps. We literally have no recourse against this other than capitulating. The clique has no material to AfD, so it is by definition asymmetric. These are direct factual statements and abstract reasoning and thus need no retraction. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f - statements that people are trying to delete articles "for a living" (implying paid editing) or calling edits "terrorism" are very serious personal attacks and if continued would warrant admin action under WP:NPA. They do not help to reach resolutions of the dispute.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Facts of the case
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In good faith I'll have to hold off on posting any "soapboxing" on the MMA talk page until this is resolved. So instead of working further on rules for proposals and proposals, I'll write some background to the case, valuable to any decision. Good decisions are based on factual knowledge.
These are mostly for any intervening admin (which I think should intervene). They are empirical observations, assuming good faith in all cases (and no value judgments to minimize bias). They are my direct experience after 1 week (and reading the history):
1. The current MMA omnibus "design" is the product of Mtking and Treygeek. An admin verified this. Mtking knows nothing about the subject, and Treygeek claims to but he's never really demonstrated it anywhere other than improving an event page with some generic prose. He also claimed this took him a significant investment over a whole week, so I guess he works slow.
2. The design they've come up with is both visual atrocious (mismatched sidebars, etc) and obscenely long (already hard to navigate even though only 1/2 complete). Not to mention completely irrational for a non-seasonal sport (which is not sorted by calendar year), and potentially inconsistent in presentation between different organization. This can only be because someone's incompetent or willfully incompetent. We are told to assume good faith, so logically that leaves the former, and it would make sense given 1. Regardless, this doesn't bode well for MMA on wiki in the long term. Because this was already stealth-implemented for one sporting org (the biggest), it's now inconsistent with everything else. This means the work falls on "the regulars" to do the rest of work implementing something they strongly dislike (a fact noted again and again). Rule-enforcing bad design on a volunteer community drives away both contributors and readers, ruins morale, and lowers the quality of everything. This is simply a fact of human nature.
3. Furthermore, despite the process going on for months, it's still incomplete and not ready for RfC. This work is something a competent person can figure out in a weekend, maybe two if they didn't have much wiki domain knowledge. Their excuse is that MMA fans have been obstructing them, but that makes no sense since work done in your own time can be completed regardless of what others do. Their plan eventually came to incorporate some suggested improvements from others, but still none of those contributors are supporting it now.
4. The editing histories of these two + Hasteur (which constitutes their votingblock on anything mma related) shows that they're all ardent deletionists. The histories for Mtking and Hasteur for many months is almost exclusively hunting down mma pages to AfD, plus the ensuing drama. This doesn't suggest they enjoy the sport to say the least. On the other, the Agent00f is clearly thus far mostly an SPA except some kinect material previously. The follow is not citable given privacy concerns so it's "trust me", but it's factually basic: I'm a sometimes MMA fan, and joined the fray because I saw some weirdness in the pages, and found what was going on. It seemed fundamentally unethical at the time so I wrote my two cents, but got trolled in by the clear BS and "warnings" I got in reply. I also know I'm somewhat motivated by anger that gradually built over the week over this as these facts surfaced. Now I would feel I would betray my own sense of ethics if I let this lie. This is simply what happened based on my own recollection of feelings.
5. Let's be honest, we all know that Wiki's rules can be game-theoried by a clique over less organized individuals. From votingblocks to avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest, or round-robin around 3RR (noted in section above), there are many moral hazards here that can encourage a small cohesive group to work together against singular targets. Their histories suggest they stick together on the topic, and never go against anyone in the group. I suppose assuming good faith that can be attributed to sheer coincidence. However game theory is math, and not an assumption.
6. One of Hasteur and Mtking's most notable attributes is unsubstantial replies. If you look at their histories, they rarely post more than a couple lines, often littered with WP: tags instead of actual english. I've found better contributors think moderately deep thoughts, that's just a fact. This is strange given that one of their favorite excuses for deletionism is unsubstantial content, or no prose. This is at least hypocritical as a matter of pure logic. Note this does not apply to Treygeek.
7. Speaking of excuses for AfD, another is lack of sources. But that's also ironic because these two often make frivolous accusations which they don't substantiate, which leads to:
8. Another attributes of all 3 is selective replies. There's apparently no Wiki rule for ignoring people, so they usually just ignore any comment or reply where there's no trite WP tag to counterpoint. This tends to frustrate those who are the exact opposite in substantive replies, so when those call them out, they flaunt WP:GOODFAITH and WP:CIVILITY. This is very evident in the whole MMA omnibus thread and it's clearly gaming the system as matter of game theory.
9. To be fair, one of Agent00f's attributes is being too verbose, and centering everything on reasoning/logic instead of human feelings. Based on personal observation, it's a character flaw.
10. Mtking and Hasteur often accuse others first of things they're guilty themselves for. This can be seen by the harassment on my talk page and the AN itself. In the abstract this is a psychological strategy but let's assume good faith so they just do it by accident. The effect it has is still real, though, like this AN. Point 8 above is a good example, too. They're simply very proactive about striking out first at everyone else as an empirical observation.
Agent00f (talk) 23:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fact - most of the above "facts" are purely opinion. But hey, why cloud the issue with actual facts supported by evidence? Ravensfire (talk) 23:13, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not they clearly are not. An "observation" is just that: something you see clearly, like a bottle on table. A bottle on a table is not a matter of opinion. If you need something cited, please point to it specifically and I will oblige. But as a matter of basic fairness you also must oblige to acknowledge in reply that it's observable fact. I didn't cite everything as a time consideration, because the MMA talk page is a mess of a revision history. Please do not think I don't have a very technical background where discerning the difference is critical. Agent00f (talk) 23:22, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- And yet clearly, they are just your opinion about the matter. BTW - I totally love how you denigrate editors by labeling them. Hmm, how about calling you and those who support you rapid MMA fanboys? So we can have the AFD deletionists vs the fanboys. Hmm, suddenly labels aren't that attractive, are they? Ah, but you'll say, they are AFD deletionists! It's a fact (in my opinion...)! Ah, but others can point out, you are just an MMA fanboy! It's a fact (in their opinion)! And all of the vitriol, hostility and gamemanship you show on the MMA talk page does nothing to help the matter. Except, of course, chase several admins away that were trying to help. What's odd is you've not made a single edit to an MMA article. You do realize that the ultimate way to pull something out of the omnibus is to put the details that would show to anyone that it deserves it's own article. Good grief - UFC 145 probably could be split off without too much work, but that isn't being done. Think about it ... Ravensfire (talk) 23:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not they clearly are not. An "observation" is just that: something you see clearly, like a bottle on table. A bottle on a table is not a matter of opinion. If you need something cited, please point to it specifically and I will oblige. But as a matter of basic fairness you also must oblige to acknowledge in reply that it's observable fact. I didn't cite everything as a time consideration, because the MMA talk page is a mess of a revision history. Please do not think I don't have a very technical background where discerning the difference is critical. Agent00f (talk) 23:22, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am not bother if someone calls another a rabid MMA fanboy if they provide a proper definition, just like a bottle on a table is predicated on a definition of "on". Both are observable. Please provide a definition for you statement I'll be happy to accept the label since it changes nothing but the letters. Observable facts are largely linguistically context-free.
- Also, the admin left of his own free volition. This is a fact as evidenced by his own statement.
- Since you seem to expect substance from me, it's only fair you provide similar substance in reply. Please substantiate your claims clear as I've done mine.
- Later I'm working on a set of interpretations based on external reasoning (ie knowledge from outside instead of simple observations) from these facts. This should make the difference abundantly clear. Note in the vernacular, "opinions" is not well defined, so please be much more specific so that we're on the same page.
- Finally, a slight correction: these are not just facts, but also math as explained within the writing. For example, hypocrisy as formally defined is axiomatic, and easy to deduct. If you have disputes with any of the math, please point out which and we can either go through a thought experiment or the formally deduction. Agent00f (talk) 23:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- For #1, can you link to an edit where I claimed to spend a week "full-time" working on UFC 140? If I did make such a claim it was in error, however, I doubt I said that. I spent a week researching the event so that I could write the prose and have it sourced as well as I could. If that is bad, I apologize, I was doing the best I could with the time I had available to me. I would love to see you bring an MMA event article up to the same standards or to a higher standard.
- I believe you claimed that you did this during an no-work week, and you wouldn't be able to resume this kind of commitment afterward, which would imply it was a sizable investment. I commend your commitment. Since we seem to more or less agree on the basics, I'll just reword it. If you wish to specify X hours out of 40 let me know, but I don't think that's necessary.
- For #2, the original version of the article lacked the sidebars and raw event results. These other features were added afterwards in order to attempt to work with others interested in the MMA article space. For you to blame the current format of the article exclusively on me and/or Mtking is misplaced blame.
- This plan was specified by Dennis the admin as the result of you and Mtking's work. However, given that none of the those others you speak of want anything to do with it anymore, I think calling it you and Mtking's plan is fairly accurate. I will however amend 3 because not all elements of the design are yours.
- For #3... you may not have intended it to be. However, it appears to be a personal attack against any and everyone who has participated in the discussions at WT:MMANOT because you are claiming we are incompetent since the discussion has lasted as long as it has.... thanks.
- This is a bad interpretation of a plain fact. The incompetence is displayed in a plan that no one liked. Had competent work been done in the first place, then the process wouldn't have taken months because people wouldn't have objected so severely. However I sympathize with your distaste for bureaucracy. I'm wasting time here much better spent coming up with proposals a superior plan which everyone except you 3 would like. In fact you and Mtking gaming of the system (wholesale deletion and then 3rr, remember that?) is blocking proposals from being tabled. Bureaucracy often means incompetence blocking ideas that aren't institutional. Such is life.
- For #7 "they often make frivolous accusations"[citation needed] (particularly for the "frivolous accusations" I have made).
- It probably wasn't unambiguous that 7 follows from 6, where you are not named. I've clarified it. I hope this doesn't imply that you've internalized the clique. ;) If you want citations for them, simply read the flood of their spam/harassment on my talk page. There is of course much more in the talk page (WP:WARNINGS at every turn), and you should be aware of it from your history on this case.
- For #8 I historically don't respond to comments, questions, etc that I do not understand. Also, I try not to immediately respond to talk pages (though I am not always successful) and in discussion that have rapid comments from multiple people it can be easy to miss something to respond to.
- I don't know what you're talking about, please clarify. This is one example of a good reply to a confusing comment instead of ignoring it.
- For #10 I stand by the vast majority of my edits and actions on Wikipedia. If administrators and/or the larger Wikipedia community feels that I have been in error I fully expect them to let me know up to and including talk page warnings, blocks of editing privileges and/or topic bans.
- I apologize I didn't exclude you from this point, that was clearly an error and I've fixed it. You're actually a quite honest person and don't indulge in this like your colleagues.
- For the points that I did not address, I don't understand why you bring them up aside from possibly blowing off steam. I had hoped that both in the original WT:MMANOT discussions and my attempts to renew the discussion that everyone could try to work together. Unfortunately, it seems those efforts are failing and I'm not sure why aside from the possibility that my involvement inherently negatively polarizes the situation. Now I must run, UFC on Fox is about to start. --TreyGeek (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- The facts listed here are a large part of the reason why people are very reluctant to work with the 3 amigos, and frankly despise them even if they're not allowed to express it. I've noted above that background facts are important to making decision, like for example this AN. That's why they're placed as a primer for the admin who might not be familiar with the situation otherwise.
- For #1, can you link to an edit where I claimed to spend a week "full-time" working on UFC 140? If I did make such a claim it was in error, however, I doubt I said that. I spent a week researching the event so that I could write the prose and have it sourced as well as I could. If that is bad, I apologize, I was doing the best I could with the time I had available to me. I would love to see you bring an MMA event article up to the same standards or to a higher standard.
Interpretations of the Situation
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This is based on my own value judgement and external logic (ie uses things not inherent in the observation). It's separated from the above because it is not 100% provably true.
1. It seems what happened is that when the group above was warring against mma pages, a few mma fans took matters into their own hands. This had a unfortunate polarizing effect on wiki administration whereby the latter became the "bad guys" as an aggregate, and the former by extension and axiomatic symmetry the good guys. This gave the former considerable more leeway when gaming the system. There is extensive psych research for this if citation is necessary.
2. Allowing a small disinterested clique to systematically ruin a whole functional community on wiki is a stain on the wiki reputation, even if it's by accident. By doing nothing to dissuade (ie allowing) gaming of the system, it paints a picture that the org is more about the letter of the law than the spirit. It defines the site as a bureaucratic nightmare instead of good judgement. This is fundamentally discouraging to smart and creative contributors which is what any site needs.
3. As a matter of good judgement, there are two issues to consider here: the good of the few against the many, and legal consistency. The former is obvious, but the later often encourages enforcing the letter of the law if only to minimize exceptions. However, in that case we also have to consider that allowing the precedent that a few people can game the site rules for months without punishment.
4. This seems a clear case where a few (again, perhaps only by circumstance) took over the reigns of power by abusing the common rules. In a way it's the wort kind of takeover since they've gotten to make substantial decisions even though they have no stake in the longer term outcome. This is very akin to predatory takeover or private equity business in equivalent function, which are very well documented cases. In all these circumstances, demoralization at the lower ranks and moral hazards abound. Given this has already happened, the question is how to resolve it: silence the whistle-blowers, turn a blind eye, solve the problem by closing loopholes, or solve the problem by sanctioning people've taken advantage of them (even if they only happen upon it). The decision is an easy one to make, and it's certainly not mine to make, but the necessary info to do it was presented.
Agent00f (talk) 11:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Call for sanctions
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Administrators Surely this 3 ring circus has gone on long enough. The thread a few days ago coupled with these 2 threads should illuminate beyond any shadow of a doubt the disruptive actions of Agent00f who will filibuster, claim bureaucratic abuse, claim anything in the book just to slow down the process of building consensus regarding the MMA articles.
I do acknowledge that my own actions in response to Agent00f have been less than exemplary, however I challenge you to find any other editor who has dealt with the same intensity and duration of abuse of community guidelines as we (MtKing, TreyGeek, and myself) have and still maintain the same level of composure.
I call for an indefinite block on Agent00f on grounds of deliberate disruption, lack of Assuming Good Faith, Personal Attacks, and deliberate obfuscation after being warned repeatedly being asked to strike assumptions of bad faith and to discontinue their disruptive behavior.
My name is Hasteur and I endorse this set of proposed sanctions. Hasteur (talk) 23:50, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is so much admin shopping just like the last ANI it's not even funny. First, thorough explanations are not "Obfuscation". Some things in the world are just complicated. Second, sometimes facts can reflect badly, but that's no a function of facts, but interpretation. Just like a bottle on the table that you were supposed to put away can reflect badly on one's sense of responsibility. I suppose it's possible of all who sees this one will oblige and you'll get your way in complete violation of the shopping rule. Agent00f (talk) 00:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose The user in question has a perfectly clean block log. Calling for an indefinite block at this point is inappropriate and easily seen as pointy. Please follow proper procedures and an escalating block system. Calling for this right away seems like an attempt to remove an opponent in a dispute, even if that isn't what it is meant as. SilverserenC 08:41, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I have striked my request for an indef block, however I point to the below created section, their blocking by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, and their WP:NOTTHEM groundwork laying on their talk page in response to their block. While I prefer to see the good things in editors, I suspect that no change in behavior will result from the preventative measure that was taken. Hasteur (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Reflections on the Ridiculousness of this AN
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- It was clearly created in ridiculously bad faith. Mtking wholesale deletes a new comment, which is a direct violation of WP:TALKO's editing rule and then has the nerve to FORUMSHOP and ADMINSHOP by creating this AN over his own violation.
- When I tried to revert back this blatant disregard for wiki rules, Mtking and Treygeek team up to run around 3RR together, and Mtking creates yet another AN to FORUMSHOP/ADMINSHOP against me so that his blatant disregard for policy can't stopped.
- When that didn't get anywhere, Mtking instead attempts subterfuge to make sure the comment is never seen.
This AN is basically an attempt to hid one comment by either keeping it deleted or blocking the user who created it. It's nothing bad faith to the Nth degree.
Frankly Mtking's actions here an insult to the intelligence of admins by assuming they're can't see through these flagrant attempts at flaunting wiki standards of conduct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agent00f (talk • contribs) 12:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Comment I think I said it once before, vape the whole project. Failing that, just indef topic ban them all, then maybe this won't come up every week. Blackmane (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Support Blackmane's solution. Delete all MMA articles, SALT them, blacklist the acronym MMA ... guys can't play well with others - we get DAILY edit-wars, ANI filings, AFD's, PROD's, CSD's ... what a load of crap. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- How about you guys go create a MMA wiki on Wikia? Then you can all fight with each other and we don't have to read about it. --Laser brain (talk) 00:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hear hear. Swear to heaven, this is a pretty basic situation:
1) Some editors attempt to apply certain policies and guidelines to a series of articles, such as WP:ROUTINE, WP:IRS, WP:NSPORT, WP:CRYSTAL and the like.
2) A handful of contrarians, whose arguments tend to rest on illegitimate grounds such as WP:ILIKEIT and WP:ITSUSEFUL, spam some bulletin boards with oft-obscene exhortations to "take the mofos down," whereupon the effort is flooded by wave after wave of SPAs, sockpuppets and meatpuppets, for whom civility and NPA rules are sick jokes.
3) Although quite literally dozens of these sock/meatpuppets are indef blocked, for some astonishing reason, a number of parties are taking their filibustering seriously, and this organized, canvassed disruption is allowed to persist.
These people do not care about Wikipedia. They don't care about our policies, our guidelines, our customs and our rules. They don't merely admit that they're bent on disrupting anyone who attempts to thwart their use of Wikipedia as a webhost for their information, they boast about it. Why in the hell are we letting them do it, and why would we want thereby to admit to the world that a well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies and guidelines to impose their will? Ravenswing 01:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- " well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies"
- The problem has rather been the opposite. The existance of many motivated but unorganized "SPA's" (mainly wiki contributors and users) vs an smaller entrench wiki "elite" (observations which no one disagrees with, given that it's your own statement) is by definition a demonstrate that a "well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies" against a majority of actual users/stakeholder. Committee decisions reached via uninformed opinions, by people who don't understand the situation, against the interests of the afflicted userbase is the main reason why we're still here after many months. It's notable that ALL of the dozens of regular MMA contributors/stakeholders who were part of the process at the start have left or been pushed out. Please think about this per your recommendation above. Agent00f (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Conditionally Support Blackmane's solution. However, the parties targeted are the wrong ones. According to reality thishas been a war between a very few but active AfD enthusiasts and the rest of the community who contribute/read material on wiki. The former are the only ones who've been here since the start of this destructive ordeal and they've had their second chance about 5 chances ago. Everyone else has left, often in disgust. Of course those left get to point the finger. Can someone please provide a brightline rule of how many opportunities before the wiki powers that be says enough with epic failure? Agent00f (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd partially meant my comment to be facetious albeit with a very substantial portion of seriousness. The MMA project is becoming the very definition of a walled garden. This is the last thing an open project needs. This is Wikipedia not fricking Fanboypedia. And purely for my own benefit, how does one go about vaping an entire project? If this rather drastic idea gains traction, it might be worth putting it up for proper community consideration Blackmane (talk) 10:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- My guess is that this is going to require an arbcom case placing discretionary sanctions of the sort that exist in the Balkans articles, i.e. disruption by SPAs and IPs can be immediately vaped (blocked) by a patrolling admin. The MMA fanboys will never want to play on their own Wiki because it will never get the traffic that Wikipedia does. When you combine hundreds of meatpuppets with not only ignorance of rules but an outright refusal to believe that rules apply to them, you get this mess. We can't feasibly remove all MMA from the encyclopedia, but we can block all of this ridiculousness on sight. Chillllls (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hard to say whether Arbcom would take this case on without the full gamut of dispute resolution cards being played, but given the sheer scale of disruption that the MMA fanboys are causing I don't think there would be much option. However, that doesn't really solve the problem, it merely enhances the administrative workload because the fanboys will not give up. The best option may still come down to nuking the project from orbit. A RFC may be the next thing to consider on this. Blackmane (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'll be tarred by both sides for saying this, but 80% of the MMA content is not a problem. It's only the hyper motivated enthusiast crowd that is causing a problem. Heck, up to when some editors came on the scene we were nearly ready to get the blue ribbon RfC moving along so that we could finish the debate about how to protect the smaller articles that are already here and how to ensure that MMA is covered reasonably. It was suggested previously that the way to get a discretionary sanctions like regime passed would be to go for General Sanctions at WP:AN. I've personally been holding back from using this route because I've wanted to demonstrate good faith above and beyond a WikiSaint so that claims of being biased against MMA topics can be deflected by the aforementioned good faith. Hasteur (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- My guess is that this is going to require an arbcom case placing discretionary sanctions of the sort that exist in the Balkans articles, i.e. disruption by SPAs and IPs can be immediately vaped (blocked) by a patrolling admin. The MMA fanboys will never want to play on their own Wiki because it will never get the traffic that Wikipedia does. When you combine hundreds of meatpuppets with not only ignorance of rules but an outright refusal to believe that rules apply to them, you get this mess. We can't feasibly remove all MMA from the encyclopedia, but we can block all of this ridiculousness on sight. Chillllls (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
What is expected of this ever snowballing ANI?
Exactly what is expected to be achieved here? This started off as Mtking+Hasteur vs Agent00f and it's basically blown up into something about MMA as a whole. Would the suggestion of an IBAN between Hastuer and Agent00f as well as a topic ban for Agent00f' be off the scale? I've generally not been involved with the whole fiasco that is WP:MMA except for a few comments on, yet another, MMA related ANI I made some months back and when yet another MMA fanboy, BigzMMA, was hauled through ANI. I've seen and read through a number of AfDs on MMA related articles and would generally have voted delete on many of them, but decided against involving myself in that swamp. I give Treygeek and the other AFD regulars an enormous amount of credit for maintaining their sanity in the face of the some of the crap they've been through. Blackmane (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you haven't noted yet, the prior attempts at resolving this problem only seem to have a few common denominators. Basic logic would dictate that repeating the same wouldn't generate novel results. However, your interpretation of the same info yields the opinion that the solution rather involves nuking everyone else outside the common denominator of previous failures. This isn't necessarily a terrible plan outside of its basic destructiveness, but do note that it's those outside that circle who will be saddled with the resulting rules/plans. In comparison, nuking the whole subject (including all contributors) seems much more consistent with the that general scheme. Agent00f (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- cough* Notification *cough* You make a suggestion of an IBAN between me and Agent00f, then give credit for "the crap they've been through". Inconsistent much? This entire thread has transformed from it's initial purpose of Agent00f screaming harassment that Mtking and I were perpetrating against him, into a request for
undissolveduninvolved admins to start policing the community guidelines (which still has yet to occur), to a examination of how Agent00f has conducted themselves, to a ill planned request for an indefinite block (which I have since retracted), to a further look at how to improve the MMA article space. I will admit to being somewhat uncivil in some of my communication with Agent00f, but I contest the need of an IBAN as I have not been warned once regarding my interaction. Hasteur (talk) 11:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- cough* Notification *cough* You make a suggestion of an IBAN between me and Agent00f, then give credit for "the crap they've been through". Inconsistent much? This entire thread has transformed from it's initial purpose of Agent00f screaming harassment that Mtking and I were perpetrating against him, into a request for
- I'd drop a notice on Agent00f's talk page about this sub-thread but I don't think any posting from me at this time would be well received at all. Hasteur (talk) 12:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just don't screw up the formatting or you'll get barked at. Ravensfire (talk) 12:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hence why I asked the question whether my suggestion is off the scale. I bolded it to make it stand out not to make it a formal proposal. I'm more than happy to strike it out if you have issue with it. My preference would be to have at least something come out of this extended discussion and a rather extreme suggestion was hopefully going to push for a compromising position from others. A rather large amount of time and discussion has gone into this and to have it closed merely as "no admin action required" is, to my mind at least, nonsensical. Blackmane (talk) 14:52, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I will agree that admin action (or involvement) is required, but jumping to the level of IBAN is unwarranted. It's been my understanding that interaction bans are for when there is mutual persistent incompatibility with both editors or one going and harassing another. While I don't think we're at that level, I think an uninvolved experienced editor taking Agent00f as a mentoree would be the best way to modify the issues that have been identified while at the same time allowing Agent00f to to continue contributing to the community. I'm staying away from other/further recommendations as I precieve myself to be already very involved with Agent00f's behavior. Hasteur (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- "unwarranted"??? How many kb is this thread? Clearly that word cannot be used here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ahem) I'd say this has gone beyond the scope of ANI at this point. And I personally feel IBANs are useless, as they're far too easy to game around. The whole MMA issue needs to go to ArbCom. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I will agree that admin action (or involvement) is required, but jumping to the level of IBAN is unwarranted. It's been my understanding that interaction bans are for when there is mutual persistent incompatibility with both editors or one going and harassing another. While I don't think we're at that level, I think an uninvolved experienced editor taking Agent00f as a mentoree would be the best way to modify the issues that have been identified while at the same time allowing Agent00f to to continue contributing to the community. I'm staying away from other/further recommendations as I precieve myself to be already very involved with Agent00f's behavior. Hasteur (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hence why I asked the question whether my suggestion is off the scale. I bolded it to make it stand out not to make it a formal proposal. I'm more than happy to strike it out if you have issue with it. My preference would be to have at least something come out of this extended discussion and a rather extreme suggestion was hopefully going to push for a compromising position from others. A rather large amount of time and discussion has gone into this and to have it closed merely as "no admin action required" is, to my mind at least, nonsensical. Blackmane (talk) 14:52, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just don't screw up the formatting or you'll get barked at. Ravensfire (talk) 12:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Addressing the comment that the only people opposing the MMA articles are a small clique of 3 deletionists: I oppose many of them also, and support the consolidation proposal. So do some others, but they can be seem on the discussions--I don't want to bring them to this mess involutarily. DGG ( talk ) 19:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- In like fashion, I oppose many of them, support the portmanteau articles, and spit contemptuously on the premise that failure to give every show of every fed its own article equates to wanting to eliminate MMA from Wikipedia. (Of course, if there were twenty experienced editors all over these articles, no doubt the disruptors would come up with some other Conspiracy To Get Us line of reasoning.) Ravenswing 03:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse the sane and balanced comments of DGG (goes without saying; no deletionist he) and of Ravenswing as well. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- In like fashion, I oppose many of them, support the portmanteau articles, and spit contemptuously on the premise that failure to give every show of every fed its own article equates to wanting to eliminate MMA from Wikipedia. (Of course, if there were twenty experienced editors all over these articles, no doubt the disruptors would come up with some other Conspiracy To Get Us line of reasoning.) Ravenswing 03:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please keep an eye Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability ,a little progress, but more recently more of the same..Newmanoconnor (talk) 00:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've read through (and am still reading through) the MMANOT talk page and frankly I'm appalled. The discussion that started there was moving forwards with contributions from a number of editors but has since been bogged down in a morass of circular discussions by Agentoof. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the hits that come. I'm going to formally propose a topic ban for Agent00f for sustained disruption at the WT:MMANOT. While I grant that it is constructive to have points debated and holes looked over and patched but not to the point that it becomes badgering. If anyone disagrees, I'd be happy to take multiple servings of seafoodBlackmane (talk) 09:09, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is this some kind of joke? Did you notice that I was just about the only one to bring up domain-specific Rfc-related points (~10 in total) to a domain-specific RfC in a flood of generic comments that don't even mention details? Or that the "circular discussions" is only one user repeating the same thing over and over again in the most obnoxious way possible while dodging a simple question? With a ready group of indignant editors ready to jump on their cross at the slightest perceived slights to start shopping, it's no wonder there are no regular subject contributors left in this discussion. Would you want to put up with this? Agent00f (talk) 09:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I quite doubt that anyone is laughing; certainly I'm not, after looking over that talk page myself. Indeed - after filtering out many personal attacks, broad attacks and irrelevancies - you asked a number of questions. Where pertinent, by and large they were answered. That you might not like the answers is another matter, but I hope and trust you can concede that no one is required to provide you an answer with which you agree.
As far as "regular subject contributors" go, though, do you count yourself as one? I was quite startled when, upon review of your edit history, I found that you had only made two articlespace comments ever, both two years ago, that you had never improved an article (MMA or otherwise) and that you had never created an article (MMA or otherwise). As I remarked on that talk page this morning, your commentary in the couple weeks you have again been active has been entirely negative: trying to shut down AfDs, attempting to discredit editors with whom you disagree, labeling your opponents as serving a "deletionist agenda" and opposing any proposal to set MMA notability criteria. As such, I would Support a topic ban as Blackmane proposes, until such time as you demonstrate that you intend to be a productive Wikipedia editor. Ravenswing 10:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Where pertinent, by and large they were answered". First, I have no idea what these "questions" are since I don't need to ask questions about the RfC given that I understand the specifics quite well. The one question I ask about how you define "quality" is still un-answered btw despite the waffling.
- I generally don't feel the need to log in and prove anything to the world when by chance I feel the need to append a technical entry. The main reason I did so for this MMANOT topic was due to the ridiculous SOCK accusations/"investigation" dropped by the deletionist crowd at every opportunity.
- the accusation I tried to "shut down AfDs" is entirely true: I said it shows bad faith to use them as leverage during a discussion about the AfD's in question. This is a matter of acting ethically, and I don't know why you feel it's a slight to be ethical.
- if stating that it's unethically to use AfD's "discredits" anyone, I'll be happy to take credit. I'll repeat again: it's unethical to keep AfDing while the articles are under discussion/review. If there are any other basic moral stances you dislike, please list them as well.
- "deletionist agenda". I very explicitly said a couple people had deletionist histories, just as you very explicitly said my account has a lackluster history. Both are true, yet you seem to think the statement that's not yours is grounds for a block. Why is that?
- Also, please note the impropriety of "supporting" sanctions in an argument you're part of. Same for Blackmane. Shopping for a ban after coming out the worse end of a conversation is a display of conflict of interest and unCIVILized behavior. Agent00f (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are confused. What I was referring to was your conduct on the MMA notability talk page. If the mooted RfC was put up, I have not yet seen it. Secondly, your repeated insistence that I define "quality" for you is an example of the behavior which we find objectionable; that you tendentiously pick some irrelevant word, point or phrase to belabor. As far as sockpuppet allegations go, it was not at all ridiculous given the recent history of MMA here, where dozens of sock- and meatpuppets have already been blocked. Finally, another disruptive habit you display is in distorting people's words and actions. I am not "shopping" for a ban; I responded to a proposal for one here, as I often do, being modestly active in ANI discussions. My first posts on that talk page were less than six hours ago, to which you were quite prompt in tendentious and hostile responses which violated WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, as even one editor quite sympathetic to you pointed out. Ravenswing 11:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- "If the mooted RfC was put up, I have not yet seen it." What are you talking about? You replied in the RfC.
- "that you tendentiously pick some irrelevant word, point or phrase to belabor". It was a simple question about the core your argument lies around. If you don't want to define it, whatever, just ignore it as you've done everywhere else. This is how you replied: "Now I see that you're not only inexperienced with Wikipedia, but you have almost no experience with article building (with only 280 edits, and only two in articlespace). While reviewing the links at WP:PILLAR would no doubt prove informative, I especially commend to you WP:ITSUSEFUL, as an example of a generally discredited argument at AfD. " An amusing answer given those pages undermined you own point. When that was pointed out, you were the only one throwing out personal accusations: Finally, while you are so eager to discuss the agenda of others ... what about yours? It is plain that you are not on Wikipedia to improve articles - you never have improved an article. It is plain that you are not on Wikipedia to create MMA articles - you never have. You’re not even here to suggest ways to improve Wikipedia - your commentary has been entirely negative, from trying to shut down AfDs, to trying to discredit editors whom you perceive as opposing your agenda, to opposing any proposal to set notability criteria. Would you care to put your labeling and the talk of agendas to rest, sir, or are you comfortable with your own quite blatant agenda - it’s not that you can claim you are on Wikipedia for any other purpose - being the subject of frequent commentary? Now that you seem to be angry this about this, you appear to seek to sanction anyone who dares bring it about.
- The only remotely "hostile" comment was the remark that the above was petty authority, which is it. The solution here is easy. Don't act with petty authority if that's not a good impression to leave. Agent00f (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- As Chillllls noted below, your battleground mentality is part of the problem. As such, I see no reason to further respond to your filibustering, and will restrict myself to answering other editors, who can reasonably be expected to keep their comments concise and to the point. Ravenswing 16:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are confused. What I was referring to was your conduct on the MMA notability talk page. If the mooted RfC was put up, I have not yet seen it. Secondly, your repeated insistence that I define "quality" for you is an example of the behavior which we find objectionable; that you tendentiously pick some irrelevant word, point or phrase to belabor. As far as sockpuppet allegations go, it was not at all ridiculous given the recent history of MMA here, where dozens of sock- and meatpuppets have already been blocked. Finally, another disruptive habit you display is in distorting people's words and actions. I am not "shopping" for a ban; I responded to a proposal for one here, as I often do, being modestly active in ANI discussions. My first posts on that talk page were less than six hours ago, to which you were quite prompt in tendentious and hostile responses which violated WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, as even one editor quite sympathetic to you pointed out. Ravenswing 11:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Where pertinent, by and large they were answered". First, I have no idea what these "questions" are since I don't need to ask questions about the RfC given that I understand the specifics quite well. The one question I ask about how you define "quality" is still un-answered btw despite the waffling.
- I quite doubt that anyone is laughing; certainly I'm not, after looking over that talk page myself. Indeed - after filtering out many personal attacks, broad attacks and irrelevancies - you asked a number of questions. Where pertinent, by and large they were answered. That you might not like the answers is another matter, but I hope and trust you can concede that no one is required to provide you an answer with which you agree.
- Endorse the topic ban as one of the few ways to stop the incessant disruptive attitude. I note that a topic ban from MMA articles is a de facto siteban as Agent00f has shown effectively no interest in editing outside the MMA topic space Hasteur (talk) 12:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh, just a note this is the user who's been harassing me for the last two weeks, like just 5 min ago striking out anything which doesn't suit his/her sensibilities on the MMA talk page in direct violation of TALKO rules. It's pretty amusing nothing ever gets done about this kind of DISRUPTIVE behavior, like selective replies and whatnot, and all this AN harassment.
- PS. Hasteur, don't forget to canvas for more sure sympathetic votes like last time. Agent00f (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
For the record, I've never been involved in any of the discussions on articles/policies/guidelines regarding MMA. Unless someone can point to the relevant interactions that suggest otherwise, I would say I'm a fairly neutral party in this matter. Sure I have some strong opinions about how things could be done better, but that isn't clouding my judgement in this matter. Agent00f, you may think I'm here to "win" an argument, that is entirely untrue. I put forward my perspective and will debate them, but if others decide otherwise, then so be it. It's no skin off my back if what I say is judged not to be something worth pursuing. You may see that I have a conflict of interest here in that I am attempting to silence the opposition. Again, you are wrong as I have no horse in the race with regards to MMA, if you are topic banned then it is the community's decision. I decided to put forward the proposal after studying WT:MMANOT. If the topic ban proposal is not agreed to, that too is the community's decision and will not be something I will pursue adamantly to enact against the community's consensus. I have nothing against you personally and in fact have somewhat enjoyed the sparring, but it is what I perceive in how you have stalled the discussion at the talk page that has led me to decide to make this proposal. Blackmane (talk) 12:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Again, is this meant as parody? Just look at your own previous comments (note this is was all before the "studying" that supposed changed your mind):
- Comment I think I said it once before, vape the whole project. Failing that, just indef topic ban them all, then maybe this won't come up every week. Blackmane (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- And in the rush to endorse this?: Hear hear. Swear to heaven, this is a pretty basic situation:... Ravenswing 01:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC), oops.
- Would the suggestion of an IBAN between Hastuer and Agent00f as well as a topic ban for Agent00f be off the scale? I've generally not been involved with the whole fiasco that is WP:MMA except for a few comments on, yet another, MMA related ANI I made some months back and when yet another MMA fanboy, BigzMMA, was hauled through ANI. I've seen and read through a number of AfDs on MMA related articles and would generally have voted delete on many of them, but decided against involving myself in that swamp. I give Treygeek and the other AFD regulars an enormous amount of credit for maintaining their sanity in the face of the some of the crap they've been through. Blackmane (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hasteur also claimed to contact "neutral" members in the last ANI, and I don't recall the admin look too favorably on this when it was shown otherwise. Seem like everyone is quite neutral here, if by neutral we mean kinda hopes the whole thing gets vaped. Remember these are all recorded for posterity. Agent00f (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you cannot see that my opinion, from a bystander's perspective, is that sometimes the best way to deal with an infested paddock is to burn the lot to the ground and start again, then either I'm being too vague or you're not reading between the lines. If it looks like I'm siding with anyone, I'm siding with protecting the 'pedia. In fact, I'm going to expand on my call for your topic ban to include general violations of WP:AGF, WP:TE, WP:IDHT, WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. Blackmane (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, if by bystander you mean someone not a day ago was high-fiving with those berating "fanboys" and support dropping the bomb on a whole subject to prove a point, not a day ago. Surely you have nothing against someone who vehemently opposed the idea, and who you've now found is the only domain expert and stakeholder interest advocate left in the discussion. Oh and btw, the bomb was your proposal. But let's be fair here, you never intended these bombs to start any BATTLE, and it's just awful you need to block someone for the good of wiki. Is it standard policy to assume admins to be idiots who'll believe this? Agent00f (talk) 15:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you cannot see that my opinion, from a bystander's perspective, is that sometimes the best way to deal with an infested paddock is to burn the lot to the ground and start again, then either I'm being too vague or you're not reading between the lines. If it looks like I'm siding with anyone, I'm siding with protecting the 'pedia. In fact, I'm going to expand on my call for your topic ban to include general violations of WP:AGF, WP:TE, WP:IDHT, WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. Blackmane (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I have started a RfC/U in regards to Agent00f's conduct. Pending participation, I suggest that the suggestion of sanctions be tabled. Hasteur (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Blackmane, an IBAN won't fix anything. I spent months working on MMA articles before Agent showed up, with a little success on getting the two sides of the issue together before I gave up due to Agent's passive-aggressive hostility and the unwillingness of the other side to stop bringing every thing to ANI. It seems that now the floodgates have opened up and everyone on both sides has literally gone 'nanners. Agent is the most culpable in this mess, by a large degree, based on my heavy involvement there previously, had I not been so involved previous to his arrival and could have arguably acted objectively, I would have already taken action a long time ago. It is hard to see with the reams of garbage over there now, so either you trust my judgement or you don't, I suppose. And I liked your first idea better. At this point, Wikipedia would be better off with none of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- To be truly honest, the underlying issue is about notability and I think it affects more than just MMA. The core question is simply do major MMA pay-per-view events, such as those held regularly by UFC, meet the notability requirements with just the basic fight information (location, crowd, payouts) and results? That question isn't limited to just MMA though. Take tennis. The tennis project's notability guidelines say that top tier tournaments are notable, but secondary ones aren't, but with 15 seconds of effort, I find 2010 GEMAX Open. For all the MMA drama, any of UFC event articles have far more information than that article. With a bit more effort, you can find similar articles for many other sports. I'll give the MLB and NFL folks huge credit that you don't see as much of this in those areas, especially in football. I have no question that any give NFL game, especially a big rivalry game, generates more and lasting coverage than the average UFC PPV event. There are some attempts to answer the notability question (when it's not being derailed by someone declaring a revolution), but it's a bigger question than just MMA. There are large number of articles across Wikipedia that are simply results for various tournaments / events. Per WP:ROUTINE, those should be simple and easy AFD's. Anyone care to start trying that? You can see the madness from MMA, I somehow think other sports will be just as bad if not worse. Ravensfire (talk) 17:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for being thoughtful. Unfortunately these aren't novel insights, but rather tend to crop up each of the half dozen attempts at resolving this issue. Even more unfortunate, historically the persons bring up these insights and subsequent solutions have been ignored or otherwise driven off. Had they been acted on, there's no doubt this would've over months ago and probably set an excellent precedent for all other other entries of the type (you've noted). This isn't at all to trivialize what you're saying (esp since I entirely agree), just noting that we've already been here before. IOW, being more thoughtful about the specifics is very unfortunately not the solution.
- As mentioned, these types of thoughtful replies constitute the minority on the subject. In fact through direct observation of this AN as a microcosm of the broader dilemma, we can see that it's mostly just throwing around trite WP:BULLSHIT. It's uncertain whether this is simply a relection of an opinion that application of "established" processes takes priority over thinking about what's going on; or at this point, implies a lack of capacity to self-refection or understand 1. Without the kind of detail/insight which you're trying to provide, it's not possible to resolve problems except by accident, and we haven't been that lucky due to WP:TLDR and WP:ASSUMETHISWORKS. Put another way, this is a classic case where the aggregate level of intelligence displayed has been insufficient to solve it, but this kind of observation is inherently difficult to appreciate.
- This specific proposition of "nuke it from orbit" is the perfect reflection of the mindset and situation just described. The general idea is not only that topics which aren't "encyclopedic" don't belong here, but issues which can't be resolved by the same mindset don't belong here. While this isn't a bad point to make since compatibility with the wiki zeitgeist is a concern, but the solution proposed has nothing to do with the broader goal of serving wiki users. My main observation on it is that it's a mindset and idea mainly propagated by those with no stake in the outcome: iow, "I don't care for this subject so let's just get rid of it." Agent00f (talk) 09:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Having had a look at the link that Ravensfire posted for the tennis tournament, if you go to the category there are literally hundreds of articles which are little more than results scorecards and draws. Interestingly, sampling just a few almost all of them were created by just one editor. In fact, I randomly sampled about 30 articles from that category for 2009 and almost every one was created by them, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2. The ones I sampled in 2010 were created by another user. This is a little off topic but this surface scratching is only just revealing the scale of the issue here. Blackmane (talk) 00:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly; these type of walled gardens are commonplace in many Wikiprojects, even those that don't focus on sports topics. When an attempt is made by a non-project editor to enforce what should be a site-wide notability policy for inclusion or an element of the MOS, the project editors come out of the woodwork to give their reasons as to why articles on such-and-such topic are exempt from the rules (mostly clever variations of ILIKEIT). It's not that the MMA project is the worst when it comes to stuff like this, they just have the most visible (and arguably the most obtuse) IP meatpuppets at this time. Chillllls (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would agree with that. Projects sometimes set their own notability rules or style conventions &c (with style, it's more often the habit of one or two prolific editors, rather than a written guideline); this is not inherently a bad thing, but when those project rules conflict with en.wikipedia rules, we get lots of drama and timewasting. In terms of notability, it often leans towards inclusionism, but not always. IIRC there was one case where a project had a spring-clean and took a bunch of articles to AfD which appeared to fall short of the project's notability guideline even though some passed the GNG by a considerable margin. I stumbled across one project which had a very widely used template which is inherently incompatible with the MOS. There are limits to centralisation - and I wouldn't call for millions of ritual edits to shift articles from project-style to MOS-style - but the conflicts between projects rules and en.wikipedia rules are a problem which we should try to mitigate. bobrayner (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've split this section off as it's not really related to the situation above and may just move this to the talk page, although we could continue this discussion on one of our talk pages until we can come up with some sensible plan of action (if such is required or desirable). We're coming to the point we're some of us have identified a deep rooted issue and it looks like this really requires a much wider community input than just a few people having a "hmmmm" moment on ANI. I'm not against any particular wikiptoject (although the MMA makes me sigh...repeatedly) but allowing each project to go off and establish their own rules and guidelines outside those of the core policies is going to be a nightmare to fix. Blackmane (talk) 08:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would agree with that. Projects sometimes set their own notability rules or style conventions &c (with style, it's more often the habit of one or two prolific editors, rather than a written guideline); this is not inherently a bad thing, but when those project rules conflict with en.wikipedia rules, we get lots of drama and timewasting. In terms of notability, it often leans towards inclusionism, but not always. IIRC there was one case where a project had a spring-clean and took a bunch of articles to AfD which appeared to fall short of the project's notability guideline even though some passed the GNG by a considerable margin. I stumbled across one project which had a very widely used template which is inherently incompatible with the MOS. There are limits to centralisation - and I wouldn't call for millions of ritual edits to shift articles from project-style to MOS-style - but the conflicts between projects rules and en.wikipedia rules are a problem which we should try to mitigate. bobrayner (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly; these type of walled gardens are commonplace in many Wikiprojects, even those that don't focus on sports topics. When an attempt is made by a non-project editor to enforce what should be a site-wide notability policy for inclusion or an element of the MOS, the project editors come out of the woodwork to give their reasons as to why articles on such-and-such topic are exempt from the rules (mostly clever variations of ILIKEIT). It's not that the MMA project is the worst when it comes to stuff like this, they just have the most visible (and arguably the most obtuse) IP meatpuppets at this time. Chillllls (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Having had a look at the link that Ravensfire posted for the tennis tournament, if you go to the category there are literally hundreds of articles which are little more than results scorecards and draws. Interestingly, sampling just a few almost all of them were created by just one editor. In fact, I randomly sampled about 30 articles from that category for 2009 and almost every one was created by them, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2. The ones I sampled in 2010 were created by another user. This is a little off topic but this surface scratching is only just revealing the scale of the issue here. Blackmane (talk) 00:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I contest there's a back room deal going on to make a lower standard for MMA than the rest of en.WP. We're having the discussion at the SNG page for MMA to help define a very specific set of "It Must Have"s so that the MMA community can know exactly what is needed.Hasteur (talk) 12:02, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd agree to that. There needs to be a stringent set of absolute minimum baseline notability requirements that all sports projects should adhere to with no loosening. Projects should be free to build on the requirements but not weaken them to their liking so that articles can scrape by with notability. Blackmane (talk) 09:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ironically this is what the MMA userbase has said from the start: the general guidelines for established sports contains elements which are difficult to apply to the unique circumstances and format of MMA, a new burgeoning sport (high double digit year over year growth). This is a general problem for all such sports, and MMA is only notable for the often negative attention it draws from some elements in society. However, instead of using this an opportunity to fix the problem, we're only allowed to look at thoughtless and trite bandaids. Agent00f (talk) 22:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- What the MMA user(fan)base wants is to have the SNG loosened so they can have their individual event pages policy abiding. This opens up a can of worms that allows virtually any sport to have similar pages. How popular a sport is, or is becoming, is irrelevant. Blackmane (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pretty much. The tactic they've gone with is obfuscation, delay, denigration of opponents and ignoring points made. Ravensfire (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- There was a very substantive proposal on the talk page which avoids these problems. Unfortunately the anti-fans here continue to make assertion despite ignorance of these specifics. Also, Ravensfire, I can't speak for anyone else but can you point to which points I've avoided? I'd be happy to address them provide you can promise a reply in kind. All I see is the exact opposite on this page: dozens of points from me conveniently ignored by anti-fans under the banner of TLDR. Many of them were directly to you. This seems extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith. If it was because they were difficult to understand, I can try to reformulate. Agent00f (talk) 01:11, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- "This sees extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith." Facepalm Chillllls (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The hypocrisy is tautological, the only factor open to interpretation is intent. How would you describe it instead? That is not a rhetorical question. Agent00f (talk) 02:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's interesting that you're saying the hypocrisy may be unintentional when many of your posts here and at the WP:MMANOT talk page heavily imply that you believe there is a grand conspiracy of four or five editors attempting to deliberately sidetrack discussion of the MMA guidelines. As to my facepalm, I simply thought the juxtaposition of the accusation of hypocrisy and AGF was humorous. You can play rhetorical games all you want (and I actually enjoy them); but c'mon, I know apophasis when I see it. Chillllls (talk) 02:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's no belief or assuming involved here. 3 editors have been the common denominator of all previous failures. This is a simple observable fact (do you disagree?). That they often work together is also a fact stated by an admin who worked with them, and also readily evidenced when they want to delete something (always vote together, always revert war together, whereas no one else is nearly as organized). The hypocrisy is also not much of an "accusation". It's blatantly obvious that Ravensfire, et al, stated the MMA fanbase avoids their points, all while ignoring many many points to the extent of remaining silent when this behavior is called out. This is recorded right above. That's what hypocrisy is by definition. I don't see how any of this is a "game". If anything, being told to AGF when I say a bottle is resting on the table feels more like a game. Agent00f (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, the only reason there's "3 editors" instead of a landslide is because a small group of, we'll call them "pro-MMA editors" for want of a better term, have so poisoned the well that nobody who actually cares about Wikipedia policy dares go there anymore. it's such an absolutely disgusting morass of fanboyism, incivility, personal attacks and bad faith that we've all washed our hands and left in disgust because we have better things to do than suffer the slings and arrows of outraged 'editors' for whom anything other than a page for every event, ever, is proof of a cabal that's out to destroy MMA. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- And yet, for all those previous failures, only a consistent tiny minority with no interest in the subject have been allowed to control the agenda while hopping on their cross, while regular MMA stakeholders (you know, people who'll be saddled with the rules) continue to either leave in disgust or forcibly. Can someone please provide a brightline rule of how many failures a given executive group are granted before we allow pursuit of alternative strategies? Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 08:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, the only reason there's "3 editors" instead of a landslide is because a small group of, we'll call them "pro-MMA editors" for want of a better term, have so poisoned the well that nobody who actually cares about Wikipedia policy dares go there anymore. it's such an absolutely disgusting morass of fanboyism, incivility, personal attacks and bad faith that we've all washed our hands and left in disgust because we have better things to do than suffer the slings and arrows of outraged 'editors' for whom anything other than a page for every event, ever, is proof of a cabal that's out to destroy MMA. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's no belief or assuming involved here. 3 editors have been the common denominator of all previous failures. This is a simple observable fact (do you disagree?). That they often work together is also a fact stated by an admin who worked with them, and also readily evidenced when they want to delete something (always vote together, always revert war together, whereas no one else is nearly as organized). The hypocrisy is also not much of an "accusation". It's blatantly obvious that Ravensfire, et al, stated the MMA fanbase avoids their points, all while ignoring many many points to the extent of remaining silent when this behavior is called out. This is recorded right above. That's what hypocrisy is by definition. I don't see how any of this is a "game". If anything, being told to AGF when I say a bottle is resting on the table feels more like a game. Agent00f (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's interesting that you're saying the hypocrisy may be unintentional when many of your posts here and at the WP:MMANOT talk page heavily imply that you believe there is a grand conspiracy of four or five editors attempting to deliberately sidetrack discussion of the MMA guidelines. As to my facepalm, I simply thought the juxtaposition of the accusation of hypocrisy and AGF was humorous. You can play rhetorical games all you want (and I actually enjoy them); but c'mon, I know apophasis when I see it. Chillllls (talk) 02:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The hypocrisy is tautological, the only factor open to interpretation is intent. How would you describe it instead? That is not a rhetorical question. Agent00f (talk) 02:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- "This sees extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith." Facepalm Chillllls (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- There was a very substantive proposal on the talk page which avoids these problems. Unfortunately the anti-fans here continue to make assertion despite ignorance of these specifics. Also, Ravensfire, I can't speak for anyone else but can you point to which points I've avoided? I'd be happy to address them provide you can promise a reply in kind. All I see is the exact opposite on this page: dozens of points from me conveniently ignored by anti-fans under the banner of TLDR. Many of them were directly to you. This seems extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith. If it was because they were difficult to understand, I can try to reformulate. Agent00f (talk) 01:11, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pretty much. The tactic they've gone with is obfuscation, delay, denigration of opponents and ignoring points made. Ravensfire (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- What the MMA user(fan)base wants is to have the SNG loosened so they can have their individual event pages policy abiding. This opens up a can of worms that allows virtually any sport to have similar pages. How popular a sport is, or is becoming, is irrelevant. Blackmane (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ironically this is what the MMA userbase has said from the start: the general guidelines for established sports contains elements which are difficult to apply to the unique circumstances and format of MMA, a new burgeoning sport (high double digit year over year growth). This is a general problem for all such sports, and MMA is only notable for the often negative attention it draws from some elements in society. However, instead of using this an opportunity to fix the problem, we're only allowed to look at thoughtless and trite bandaids. Agent00f (talk) 22:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd agree to that. There needs to be a stringent set of absolute minimum baseline notability requirements that all sports projects should adhere to with no loosening. Projects should be free to build on the requirements but not weaken them to their liking so that articles can scrape by with notability. Blackmane (talk) 09:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you please clarify if something in my fact-checking or analysis is amiss, or it just you don't like what the results say? Personally, I don't think the results are surprising given the history of this whole affair. They're unfortunate, I agree, but not unexpected. This isn't a rhetorical question and the answer quite important to my decision. Agent00f (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think the big problem here is that you are fundamentally unable to comprehend this situation in a non-battleground mentality. You see it as a conflict between some cabal of "non-interested" editors who want to gut your focus area and a few valiant defenders of your noble sport. Your "Facts of the Case" in the above section is a perfect example of this: you describe your personal perception of how you see the debate as a list of objective facts! Your analysis is just that, your own personal subjective analysis. How do you not understand that distinction? You vacillate between alleging conpiracies and condescending dismissals of reasoning that doesn't fit your POV. You think you're frustrated? Try to step outside yourself for a moment and see things from another point of view. Chillllls (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I fully realize that it's not trivial to the see the difficulty of either my situation or anyone who dissents against a very dominant opinion on this topic. However, simply look at the record of my first week on the talk page: but a small sample of the threats ("final warning") and intimation. I've had so many calls for sanctions against me by now from the same predictable parties that I mostly act a comedy routine. If there's a BATTLE going on, it's not been one that anyone on the wrong side of dominant opinion on this subject chooses, unless their participation is that choice. When I look at the other side, I see mostly cross hopping by people who game the system with questionable ethics (eg. the "neutral" editor who just happens to call for nuking the space and everyone on the wrong side). Perhaps I've become biased, though, so maybe you can point to what they've been suffering in comparison. If anything with time I've only seen just how much they milk it.
- I think the big problem here is that you are fundamentally unable to comprehend this situation in a non-battleground mentality. You see it as a conflict between some cabal of "non-interested" editors who want to gut your focus area and a few valiant defenders of your noble sport. Your "Facts of the Case" in the above section is a perfect example of this: you describe your personal perception of how you see the debate as a list of objective facts! Your analysis is just that, your own personal subjective analysis. How do you not understand that distinction? You vacillate between alleging conpiracies and condescending dismissals of reasoning that doesn't fit your POV. You think you're frustrated? Try to step outside yourself for a moment and see things from another point of view. Chillllls (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you please clarify if something in my fact-checking or analysis is amiss, or it just you don't like what the results say? Personally, I don't think the results are surprising given the history of this whole affair. They're unfortunate, I agree, but not unexpected. This isn't a rhetorical question and the answer quite important to my decision. Agent00f (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The real irony though is despite my profession which dictates what constitutes "fact" to humanity, I still get these ridiculous accusations that I don't understand how empirical observation works. In a way it's poignant for a community like wiki to by populated by know-it-alls, but OTOH it's also why tight citation requirements exist on mainstream articles. The technical side of the project has quite lackluster sourcing, yet seems generally safe from the ridiculous AfD campaigns. Should we expect Liouville_function or Soft_Heap to come under attack by this group anytime soon or should MMA peeps make their articles just as obscure to protect them? Agent00f (talk) 16:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
WP:POINTy nominations of ANTM articles
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Some MMA fanboys:
- Mississippistfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 70.147.72.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and
- AugustWest1980 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
have nominated/called for the deletion of some ANTM articles in the mistaken belief it will somehow annoy me, they are Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/America's Next Top Model, Cycle 18 and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/America's Next Top Model. Can an admin have a look. Mtking (edits) 21:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Never did I nominate any article for deletion. I gave my opinion on an existing aFd, and in no way did I ever mention you or make it personal. You drag me to ANI in retaliation? I quoted Wiki policy when giving my Delete vote. You have a problem with it? Debate it in the aFd. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Curious - based on your strikeout, will you also be going through and striking out all hostile terms being directed towards Mtking? Ravensfire (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Curious, which are you referring? The aFd's for ATM made no mention of Mtking, and I believe that is the subject of this ANI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AugustWest1980 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your (non) answer which was pretty much as expected. Ravensfire (talk) 21:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have not directed any hostile terms at MtKing, but he most certainly directed one at me, which I struck-out. It is not my job to go protect Mtking from insults on WP, but I can most certainly react when they are hurled at me. I guess you felt it needed unstruck, so you're also okay with insults being hurled in ANI. Noted. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your (non) answer which was pretty much as expected. Ravensfire (talk) 21:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Curious, which are you referring? The aFd's for ATM made no mention of Mtking, and I believe that is the subject of this ANI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AugustWest1980 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Curious - based on your strikeout, will you also be going through and striking out all hostile terms being directed towards Mtking? Ravensfire (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Does use of a derogatory insult like fanboys and resorting to name-calling really proper for ANI? AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The word "fanboy" is used 20 (now 21 times) on this page so it would appear so. Mtking (edits) 21:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Of course the person using the insulting term will jump to defend it. Definitely not civil. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The word "fanboy" is used 20 (now 21 times) on this page so it would appear so. Mtking (edits) 21:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't really understand this whole section which btw assumes bad faith. Shouldn't there be a discussion led by people outside of modeling interests on the relevant talk page instead, while these AfD's are ongoing? I'm sure AugustWest1980 and other neutral parties will stop if the modeling fangirls or any others out to ruin wiki agree to a solution that divides up the shows by calendar months. Personally I don't know anything about modeling, but I'd vote SUPPORT for that kind of article design. To be fair though, in the words of Ravenswing, all these frivolous reality TV shows hardly seem notable given they have no lasting effect on anything. Agent00f (talk) 00:04, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have closed the two AfDs with a SNOW keep, as "obvious bad faith nominations". The MMA problem is difficult enough without this sort of game-playing. DGG ( talk ) 00:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I give a support for going a permanent (indefinite) block in these three users. ApprenticeFan work 02:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we should indef the IP address, but a block is needed due to the IPs bragging that he/she can't be blocked, and gross incivility. I don't know why Mississippistfan isn't already indeffed, maybe someone is trying to find a sock master. I think that AugustWest1980 issue should be considered separately. Unscintillating (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I will admit that I may have had a hand in Mississippifan's participation in this set of AfDs by suggesting that if they truly believed that some WWE articles that they had complained about on another user's talk page were not notable that they should WP:SOFIXIT Hasteur (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Special:Contributions/Mississippistfan is a new account with 2 of the first 4 edits being AfD nominations. Both AfD nominations were both procedurally closed as bad faith nominations. By implication of the fact that Speedy Keep's can't be rendered with a Delete vote present, AugustWest1980's delete votes were ruled as inadmissible. Unscintillating (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's on User Talk:Mississippistfan. I'm trying to put all my cards, good and bad, on the table. Hasteur (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your comment to User Talk:Mississippistfan was at
- 2012-05-11T15:15:12
- Mississippistfan's last post was at:
- 2012-05-11T15:01:46
- So your later post could not possibly have had anything to do with the two bad faith AfD nominations (refs here and here), nor the incivility here and here. The question remains, why is Mississippistfan not already indeffed? Unscintillating (talk) 03:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your comment to User Talk:Mississippistfan was at
- It's on User Talk:Mississippistfan. I'm trying to put all my cards, good and bad, on the table. Hasteur (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Special:Contributions/Mississippistfan is a new account with 2 of the first 4 edits being AfD nominations. Both AfD nominations were both procedurally closed as bad faith nominations. By implication of the fact that Speedy Keep's can't be rendered with a Delete vote present, AugustWest1980's delete votes were ruled as inadmissible. Unscintillating (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
User:ScottMMA
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- ScottMMA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
It looks like Kelapstick has not been able to help this editor understand what consensus is and I suspect an admin might need to intervene given his/her edits to mine and his talk pages. Mtking (edits) 11:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have reported to AIV, if that will help. --kelapstick(bainuu) 11:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which it didn't. --kelapstick(bainuu) 11:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Editor help
I hope this is the correct place to post (if not, please point me in the right direction). User:Baku Shad-do has been removing sourced content from the article Crosses (band) (diff, diff, diff, diff). There has been a discussion about the genre before here (which I pointed out to the editor) that argues for the inclusion. The editor's argument is that the sources on the genre article prove that sources are wrong because of their description/definition of what the genre is. However, he has failed to provide sources that specifically state that Crosses are not witch house. I have assumed the editor was new (editing since May 6) and pointed out the three core policies of Wikipedia (WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV), in case he wasn't aware, on my talk page. All I received in reply was a warning and the threat of a report to admin. I tried to make myself clear to him, but it looks like I've failed. Could someone weigh in on this small issue? Would appreciate it. HrZ (talk) 21:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I dropped an edit warring warning on their talk page as they're up to 3 reverts already. You're also up to 3 reverts so please stop reverting each other. I also find it ironic that he pointed out your spelling errors when he made an error himself. He may also have a conflict on interest seeing as he's apparently the owner of a label. Beyond the edit warring, this is really a content dispute and would be better taken to the dispute resolution noticeboard. Blackmane (talk) 23:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Blackmane, I was not removing sourced content, I removed a music genre label. The criteria of labeling a genre is not the same as using a source in a description. I have adequately sourced the definition in the genre and have provided an article that accurately traces the origins of the genre. The issue is that a certain beat-form is the defining element of all witch house music. The band has no material that fits the paradigm. I can give you access to more articles if you'd like or access to an entire forum where all the artists from the genre converse. In addition, the user known as HrZ seems not to know that the articles he's using were long ago found to be in error, indicating he has no further knowledge of the genre (beyond the articles he's using as sources). I will gladly give you the means to connect with any number of writers who have covered the genre in depth, the issue is not about a personal conflict, it is about showing respect to a genre and not allowing for the corporate misuse and abuse of a term to promote a mainstream artist who has nothing to do with the genre. Baku Shad-do (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
At best? Listen man, there are a bunch of people who have no real or defined knowledge of the genre or the music from it, posting poorly researched articles willy nilly that disrespect the genre and have a negative impact on the public perception of the genre. There's a wikipedia editing group that is actually specifically supposed to oversee problem definitions for genres, but none of you have handled the procedure correctly, by getting them involved. I'll rectify that on Monday. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you were removing sourced content. You just don't like the source. Also, you did not add any source to support the genre you replaced it with. I also note that you have not participated in the discussion on the Talk page about the genre, so you have no reasonable basis for unilaterally altering the article. You've also been editing the Witch house (music genre) article, even though, just as with the band article, you have a clear conflict of interest (I've placed tags on both articles). The genre article is a mess, although it looks like it was a mess even before you edited it. I don't have time to review either article in depth at the moment, but, if only based on your conflict, I suggest you back off and stick to discussing the content in these articles on their Talk pages rather than directly editing them. You also have edit-warred on the genre article.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Criticism in an encyclopedic context is a legitimate sourced criticism, not intentional defamation of a genre. You can source defamation, but that does not make it legitimate criticism. You need to learn the difference between the two and yes there is a legal definition. I did provide sources, just because you don't like them doesn't mean you have the right to condescend. Although I do have a label that doesn't necessarily make me biased. I'm honest enough to say what my connection is, yes I'm involved in the scene, but odds are both you and the other poster are as well, hence your vehemence that you're right. Your lack of disclosure of your relation to the scene points to the likelihood that you have a biased agenda, whether it be direct or indirect. Let's get an actual administrator involved. Baku Shad-do (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- You would like an administrator to weigh in? Sure. You (Baku Shad-do) are edit warring, removing content that is verified by a reliable source. Your only defense for doing so is your own original research that the band simply isn't in that genre, despite the fact that the source says it is. I do see some concern on the article's talk page that this source may not be reliable; if this is the case, then the information should be removed. If, however, the source is reliable, it should be re-added. Wikipedia does not rely upon the personal analysis of its editors for information, including for characterizing the genre of a particular artist. Note that if you had an additional reliable source stating that they are not witch house, then I would recommend taking it out of the infobox and discussing the two competing sides in the text proper; you, however, have not produced such a source.
- So, in short, the editors should figure out if that meets WP:RS (try WP:RSN if you're not sure), and, if it does, feel free to re-add it, and it should be removed only if counter-sources are found. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pitchfork's reliability has come into question on occassion, though I am unsure wither this is down to a few articles on the site or the site itself. However, there was a discussion on this genre before and User:Fezmar9 posted two more sources labelling the band witch house: "Actually, the issue is much larger than that since other reliable sources see Crosses as witch house such as The New Zealand Herald and Forbes—the latter of which even acknowledges that the term originated as a joke, but has legitimate applications today." Baku Shad-do has finally taking to the article talk page, my reply was very similar to yours (Qwyrxian), that he should provide sources stating that they are not witch house and any questions of reliability of the sources to be taking to WP:RSN. Also, is there any chance that someone could revert back to the sourced version until discussions are done? Currently, the version has an unsourced genre added by Baku Shad-do. HrZ (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Original research? Listen, this is no insult to your credibility, but I owned one of the original three labels in the genre, I am one of the people who helped define the term, which doesn't make me biased it makes me a legitimate direct source. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- At best, it makes you an expert, and although experts can make valuable contributions to Wikipedia, they must comply with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, which you fail to do.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- At best? That's more than a little bit insulting. Listen man, there are a number of people with no real knowledge of the genre, outside of reading a few articles, who are posting poorly researched and factually erroneous articles willy nilly that disrespect the genre and negatively affect the public perception of it (that is not the purpose of Wikipedia). Wikipedia has a proper and specific procedure for problem articles surrounding music genres, which I can plainly see hasn't even been observed by anyone, including the admins here. There is a Wikipedia music genre editing project that is supposed to deal with such specific issues, such as correcting problem edits for all genres. I'll make sure they get involved by Monday. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
This editor has now started yet another conversation about this where they admit to possibly recruiting on an outside forum. [2]. Ridernyc (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely I will, I plan to share all of these conversations with the members of the genre, that way they can see why their genre is being poorly defined and misrepresented. If you'll carefully read at the bottom of the page, Wikipedia has granted the right to share its contents, given that they are properly cited, by their Creative Commons licensing. If the current editors can't do an honest job then Wikipedia needs more editors with knowledge of the genre. Baku Shad-do (talk) 01:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Baku Shad-do, I know that this sounds weird, but relying on your own personal knowledge as one of the preeminent people in the field is exactly what Wikipedia defines as original research. For example, Jimbo Wales, founder of Wikipedia, cannot go to the article on Wikipedia, and edit it based on something that he remembers happening in the past. Information is included in Wikipedia (when done correctly) only when it can be verified in a reliable source. If you think about it, you can probably see why this is necessary--just because someone is an expert does not mean someone is infallible. In fact, experts regularly disagree, all the time--it's practically the foundation of how academic research works. The whole point of WP:V and WP:OR is that anyone should be able to see, via a citation, where the information on Wikipedia comes from. So, as I said, if you can produce reliable sources that say that this band is not witch house, then you can include those in the article along with the originals that say it is, and then we have the perfectly acceptable situation where we say, "Different sources disagree on this point". I hope this helps explain how Wikipedia works so that this matter can be resolved. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- In addition, Baku, recruiting other people to edit in a certain way is meatpuppetry and is against policy, just so that's clear. However Qwy explains things very well. I might suggest you also read, in addition to the verifiability policy, the reliable sources policy and the no original research policy, the verifibility, not truth essay (and its light-hearted but point-making crazy uncle, WP:TRUTH, along with possibly WP:GWARRIOR). Being right is something Wikipedia should absolutely aspire to, but more important than being absolutely right is being reliably verifiable. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Baku Shad-do, I know that this sounds weird, but relying on your own personal knowledge as one of the preeminent people in the field is exactly what Wikipedia defines as original research. For example, Jimbo Wales, founder of Wikipedia, cannot go to the article on Wikipedia, and edit it based on something that he remembers happening in the past. Information is included in Wikipedia (when done correctly) only when it can be verified in a reliable source. If you think about it, you can probably see why this is necessary--just because someone is an expert does not mean someone is infallible. In fact, experts regularly disagree, all the time--it's practically the foundation of how academic research works. The whole point of WP:V and WP:OR is that anyone should be able to see, via a citation, where the information on Wikipedia comes from. So, as I said, if you can produce reliable sources that say that this band is not witch house, then you can include those in the article along with the originals that say it is, and then we have the perfectly acceptable situation where we say, "Different sources disagree on this point". I hope this helps explain how Wikipedia works so that this matter can be resolved. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Apparently this "edit" war has been happening since at least December [3] seems this topic is a popular one for various groups hoax and troll over online. Looking over the talk page and edit history I think some sort of page protection might be in order here. Ridernyc (talk) 15:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Could someone take a look at this article for me. An editor, with a very clear COI, keeps on inserting text that is, in my opinion overly-promotional. The editor seems to be under several misconceptions about Wikipedia having made statements like "We manage our brand very carefully and would not want our Wikipedia page content created by someone outside Junior Achievement" (see the article talk page for more). There seems to be a clear failure to listen and I think admin action of some sort may now may be appropriate but I'm too involved now. Dpmuk (talk) 18:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is one hot mess. I reverted. Dpmuk, there are three relatively fresh accounts in there: I think maybe you should start an SPI. I've left an "only warning" for the most recent COI editor--they've been aware of this since January yet they persist in guarding their brand, and turning the article into promotion. I agree that a block is in order, but I'd prefer someone else to look at this as well. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've left a friendly, informative message at User talk:Sbell1964co, so at this point I believe the ball is in their court. They cannot claim ignorance of Wikipedia's policies on this any more. Let us see where this goes before taking any action. Hopefully, the message I left will get the point accross, if it doesn't we can only assume a willful disregard for Wikipedia's standards. I say wait for the next move, however, before deciding to take further action. --Jayron32 19:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Given the discussion on the article's talk page where both Moonriddengirl and I mentioned WP:COI and which they must have seen (as they've replied to it) I don't think they were able to claim ignorance before today's events.
- As for the WP:SPI idea I'm not sure this would serve a useful purpose as we already know they work for the same organisation and any other links between them could also plausibly be explained by this. Dpmuk (talk) 19:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but at my place of work individual computers (I think) have individual IPs. That could point at more than just being colleagues. Drmies (talk) 19:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Could be multiple private IP's sharing a pool of public IP's though. Ravensfire (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but at my place of work individual computers (I think) have individual IPs. That could point at more than just being colleagues. Drmies (talk) 19:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I feel the situation might be salvageable. I've offered to help if they agree to cease article-space edits. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 20:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Lord of mercy. Aside from the infobox, this article is basically in the same state as when it was created eight years ago, and it doesn't seem that there;s been much in the way of non-COI work on it in the interim. Is this even a notable organisation? If not, then the brand presence may be better protected by deleting the article. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- My initial reflex response was that they were probably not notable, but a quick Google News search seems to show plenty of news coverage. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 19:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Vaoverland, despite being dead is still considered a unblocked user. Previous policy has blocked dead people's accounts from Wikipedia. --Thebirdlover (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- What "previous policy"? WP:DWG (a guideline) seems to cover it now. I don't see any evidence the account has been compromised.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- A lot of users such as User:Kwantus, User:Nataraja, User:Xulin, User:Rydel, User:Dalf, User:Baderimre were blocked because of their deaths. --Thebirdlover (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- That helps. I looked at just the first in your list, and the basis for the block was WP:BLOCK. I then looked back at WP:BLOCK as of about the time of Kwantus's block, and there was a subsection called Death, which said: "The account(s) of users who are conclusively known to have died may be blocked indefinitely to prevent their use by other parties." That is no longer in the policy (I didn't check to see when it was removed or why). Thus, it would seem that we have only the guideline I cited. I should also note that the previous policy was stated in the permissive voice ("may be blocked").--Bbb23 (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the event that such an account is compromised then we would have to block. But without such a basis then I see no reason to block an account and, indeed, it seems rather disrespectful. TerriersFan (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why would it be disrespectful? en.wikipedia is not a memorial; it's an encyclopædia. If there is zero chance that the account owner will resume making constructive edits, and a nonzero chance that somebody other than the owner will get into the account (presumably they can have as many password attempts as they want), then what is the point of the account continuing to be able to make edits? It's hardly disrespectful that passports, driving licences, bank accounts &c get stopped after the holder's death; and nobody else is going to use their frequent-flier card. Why should an account here be any different? bobrayner (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with bobrayner - surely it's far more respectful to protect the deceased editor's image and reputation by ensuring that her/his identity cannot be abused, rather than wait until it happens and then block. PamD 11:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd agree - a confirmed-deceased Wikipedian should have their account(s) blocked to avoid either account hijacking or vandal/troll grave-dancing. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then shouldn't we put it back in WP:BLOCK, or at least try to figure out why it was removed? I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there's no real reason to block a no-longer-used account unless there's some evidence that it's been compromised. On the other hand, I see no particular harm in blocking the account of someone whose death has been confirmed. It may feel disrespectful, but it isn't really - the account is preserved and labeled appropriately. I lean toward (1) revising WP:BLOCK and (2) blocking the account as soon as the death is confirmed. My reasons are it's just administratively easier to tidy everything up at the same time and it eliminates the possibility, no matter how remote, of compromise.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It was removed here [4]. Discussions include Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 5#Death and Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 13#Death but it sounds like Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 6#Dying is not a reason to be blocked is the discussion mentioned when it was removed. Looking at recent cases Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians; User:Robert Ullmann,
User:Vaoverland,User:bahamut0013, User:Manstaruk, User:GerardusS, User:Slrubenstein, User:Tlogmer were all not blocked. (Slrubenstein was briefly blocked but was unblocked.) User:Codf1977 was, but it sounds like due to a request. Nil Einne (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)- The earlier cases were from 2011 and 2012. Going back further, User:Glen Dillon was blocked in 2009, User:Fg2 was blocked in 2009, User:JPatrickBedell (2010 Pentagon shooting) was blocked in March 2010 , User:Nitelinger was blocked in June 2010 (died in 2009), User:JuJube was blocked in June 2010. User:Kbthompson was blocked in December, but then unblocked, per the block log, after an AN discussion (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive219#Administrator died and User talk:Hut 8.5/Archive 9#Heads-up. User:Davost who died in December 2010 (not sure when we became aware of it) was not blocked. So it sounds like things changed sometime between June 2010 and December 2010 or a bit later. Prior to that, policy whether written down or not, seems to have been to block. (I haven't checked the history of WP:DWG to see what it said. Also, I did not consider either Joymaster or Remacle as the list links to other wikis, so I presume they weren't particularly active here.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- It was removed here [4]. Discussions include Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 5#Death and Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 13#Death but it sounds like Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 6#Dying is not a reason to be blocked is the discussion mentioned when it was removed. Looking at recent cases Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians; User:Robert Ullmann,
- Then shouldn't we put it back in WP:BLOCK, or at least try to figure out why it was removed? I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there's no real reason to block a no-longer-used account unless there's some evidence that it's been compromised. On the other hand, I see no particular harm in blocking the account of someone whose death has been confirmed. It may feel disrespectful, but it isn't really - the account is preserved and labeled appropriately. I lean toward (1) revising WP:BLOCK and (2) blocking the account as soon as the death is confirmed. My reasons are it's just administratively easier to tidy everything up at the same time and it eliminates the possibility, no matter how remote, of compromise.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd agree - a confirmed-deceased Wikipedian should have their account(s) blocked to avoid either account hijacking or vandal/troll grave-dancing. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with bobrayner - surely it's far more respectful to protect the deceased editor's image and reputation by ensuring that her/his identity cannot be abused, rather than wait until it happens and then block. PamD 11:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why would it be disrespectful? en.wikipedia is not a memorial; it's an encyclopædia. If there is zero chance that the account owner will resume making constructive edits, and a nonzero chance that somebody other than the owner will get into the account (presumably they can have as many password attempts as they want), then what is the point of the account continuing to be able to make edits? It's hardly disrespectful that passports, driving licences, bank accounts &c get stopped after the holder's death; and nobody else is going to use their frequent-flier card. Why should an account here be any different? bobrayner (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the event that such an account is compromised then we would have to block. But without such a basis then I see no reason to block an account and, indeed, it seems rather disrespectful. TerriersFan (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- That helps. I looked at just the first in your list, and the basis for the block was WP:BLOCK. I then looked back at WP:BLOCK as of about the time of Kwantus's block, and there was a subsection called Death, which said: "The account(s) of users who are conclusively known to have died may be blocked indefinitely to prevent their use by other parties." That is no longer in the policy (I didn't check to see when it was removed or why). Thus, it would seem that we have only the guideline I cited. I should also note that the previous policy was stated in the permissive voice ("may be blocked").--Bbb23 (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- A lot of users such as User:Kwantus, User:Nataraja, User:Xulin, User:Rydel, User:Dalf, User:Baderimre were blocked because of their deaths. --Thebirdlover (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I think it's time for an RfC, to clear up the issue. bobrayner (talk) 08:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ummm, why? What problem is blocking solving here? If people are so desperate to feel good about themselves by flexing their tools they could try helping out at the eternal backlog of CAT:EP. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:AGF... - The Bushranger One ping only 19:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Blatant canvassing at AFD
User:Pbmaise blatantly canvassaed at http://www.dailykos.com/blog/pbmaise (apologies you have to scroll almost the whole page) to get users to keep an article he created up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mitt Romney Cranbrook incident Hot Stop 08:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm really glad to know that Wikipedia is being accused of both right-wing and left-wing censorship. If you can't please all sides in politics, the next best thing is to please no one. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I believe that's actually meatpuppetry, not canvassing, since it occured off-wiki, although the result is the same in the end. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- The specific post on Pbmaise's blog is here. Theoldsparkle (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
No one notified Pbmaise. I rectified that.Fasttimes68 (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Andrew Nikolić
I might as well report myself - In this BLP - Andrew Nikolić - I am trying to present a NPOV addition after a complaint at the BLP noticeboard. I am over 3RR and if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP. Its a cited supportive comment from the President of the Liberal Party - Can the Admin that blocks me please explain the policy reason for the cited content removal. Thanks - Youreallycan 17:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- An admin who blocks you or your counterpart is, as you well know, under no obligation to explain why the other's edit is better than yours. You're both over the line, you should both be blocked. Or you can both start acting like adults. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- As sympathetic as I am with YRC's view on the substance of the dispute, the conduct on the Nikolic Talk page is way out of line (accusations of libel, sock puppetry, etc.), and, not surprisingly, very little real progress is being made on the dispute. The irony of creating section headers called "Back on topic" and then quickly regressing into the sniping is stark.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please do note the statement above: "if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP" -- it couldn't possibly be clearer that this editor intends to continue edit-warring. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bah, Nomo., you're a provocateur who racks up warnings and blocks like notches on his belt or her purse strap, and the worst example of Jimbo Wales' fear that it was going to be Usenet. Have you ever created anything of value for the project at all? Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- ?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I wonder who you are, Colton Cosmic. The comments I've seen from you so far at ANI are worse than useless. You seem to get fun out of stirring the shit pot. I have a special little bag of resentment for namechangers who aren't open about their previous account. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bah, Nomo., you're a provocateur who racks up warnings and blocks like notches on his belt or her purse strap, and the worst example of Jimbo Wales' fear that it was going to be Usenet. Have you ever created anything of value for the project at all? Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- No I don't get fun from stirring the pot. Give an hyperlink for it if I do. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC) PS: Drmies, Why are you cursing, this is a family encyclopedia. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, in our articles about living people neutral reporting should be a priority. The removal of this supportive comment avoids that, as such its removal is imo a BLP violation if you have a good reason for its removal I will stop attempting to replace it. - Youreallycan 18:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is the statement supported by the reference it precedes? If so, then there needs to be a good reason for removing it. If not, then it's "hijacking" the existing reference in order to make it look referenced, it's an unreferenced statement in a BLP, and either way you're declaring your intent to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Also, WP:BLP does not require neutral reporting. It requires that reliable sources must be present to verify any and all controversial or potentially defamatory material, neutrality has nothing to do with it. If the only reliable sources on a BLP are negative, then trying to make the article "neutral" is itself a BLP policy violation. Given that everyone who supports you every time you come up at AN/I points out your stellar contributions in the BLP area as an example of your benefit to the project, you should absolutely know this. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, in our articles about living people neutral reporting should be a priority. The removal of this supportive comment avoids that, as such its removal is imo a BLP violation if you have a good reason for its removal I will stop attempting to replace it. - Youreallycan 18:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've blocked both Youreallycan (talk · contribs) and pdfpdf (talk · contribs) for 72 hours, thanks to this edit-war. Moreschi (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- No warning to either? Colton Cosmic (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- YRC knew he violated 3RR (except possibly for his BLP exemption claims), and Pdfpdf brought the report against YRC. Why would warnings be necessary?--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Warnings aren't always necessary, but sometimes they are appropriate, or at least in the best long term interest of Wikipedia itself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- YRC knew he violated 3RR (except possibly for his BLP exemption claims), and Pdfpdf brought the report against YRC. Why would warnings be necessary?--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- No warning to either? Colton Cosmic (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Darn! A contributor who believes admins ought to warn, and isn't scared to say it in their frontyard! I figure odds are about two in seven that he's an admin. I've read virtually nothing of whatever the heck the quarrel was about, but I saw Youreallycan conscientiously report himself and figure he ought to be unblocked on that basis if no other. Colton Cosmic (talk) 22:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC) PS: Who's administering the admins?
- Hey Drmies [5], I actually like a sarcastic comment like that because it allows me to know you better. I briefly looked at your user page and I didn't see your face either. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Where is this self-destructiveness coming from? I mean, he's threatening to sock at this point. :/ SilverserenC 19:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It might be advisable to fully-protect his talk page before he talks himself into serious trouble. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
-
-
- He's angry. Saying he's going to do something doesn't mean he will do it. And I sympathize. Anyone who defends the integrity of wikipedia content and rules too vigorously gets smacked down for it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
-
-
Stupid stupid stupid block -- BLPN is a nearly desolate wasteland that YRC often nearly singlehandedly mans. The post here wasn't really about edit-warring -- it was a cry for help, which Bbb23 did the right thing regarding and pitched on the talk page and article. While YRC may have been 3rr applying a block here is stupid letter of the law bureaucracy -- and now the siutation has been escalated instead of deescalated. Please unblock YRC. Nobody Ent 21:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- While Ent and I may have different ways of describing it, we share the same perspective here. I don't agree with some of YRC's methods, but I know that his heart was in the right place, even if his head wasn't. I disagree with blocking him without a warning, considering the circumstances. Technically, he violated 3RR, but so did two others I put warning templates on just today. There was an ongoing conversation on the talk page, heated as it was, and I personally feel that a "shot across the bow" would have been sufficient. I personally believe that heated discussion is better than none, and generally just needs a neutral party to keep it on track (ie:Bbb23). The block may be "technically permissible" and within the letter of policy, but I don't think it is in the best interest of Wikipedia. I mean no disrespect to Moreschi nor do I question his good faith in blocking the editors, but I would ask he consider a less drastic solution, such as protecting the page and pushing the two long time editors into dispute resolution or simply allow Bbb23 to mediate, as he has previously proven quite capable in this role. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- My post is not intended as a criticism of Moreschi -- understanding the full context of the situation requires a historical perspective that an editor just coming upon the situation isn't going to have. Nobody Ent 21:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I surely believe you, and hopefully he will as well. I have notified him on his talk page, and qualified my response because I was asking for specific relief, not because he did anything wrong. Blocking without any warning was only one possible option, but not necessarily the best option in this particular case. I am hopeful he will trust the judgement of myself and others in this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- My post is not intended as a criticism of Moreschi -- understanding the full context of the situation requires a historical perspective that an editor just coming upon the situation isn't going to have. Nobody Ent 21:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Huh, Ok. Well, I don't see how I or anyone could possibly unblock one without unblocking the other, and this I am not minded to do. It's very clear that they both behaved very badly, edit-warring completely brainlessly while spitting and hissing at each other on the talk page. Such conduct does not exactly maintain a collegial editing atmosphere, and without such an atmosphere this project just does not work. At all.
- Nor do I see that YRC is so obviously right in this dispute that, or the threat of a severe BLP violation so imminent, that he gets off the hook that way. There are certainly circumstances in which I can envisage not blocking people for 3RR if they were consistently reverting clear and obvious (but non-vandalistic) BLP violations. But this is simply not one of those cases. By the end they were largely warring over trivialities, such as whether or not a supporting statement from the article subject's party leader should be included. That is, one way or another, not a serious BLP issue, and is something editors should be perfectly capable of talking over calmly and rationally on the talkpage without going the balloons going up. I don't know if people have counted the reverts, but I got to YRC being at about 6RR before losing track. In 2012 that's not OK. This isn't 2005 any more, when 48 reverts in a day in one page got you no more than 24 hours off...(true story).
- YRC seems to me someone who would be entirely prepared to sacrifice not just part of our system of policies and guidelines, but, if necessary, all of it - in order to preserve the remainder. Even making allowances for his frustration, he seems entirely convinced that he must be right and could in no possible world ever be wrong - completely immune to concepts such as compromise, negotiation, and the middle ground. I have been through at least 3 arbitration cases with people like this, who often contributed a good deal of useful encyclopaedic content but whose complete unwillingness to work in a collegial manner led to them getting banned. In at least two of those cases the problem editor was defended in a manner remarkably similar to that which I'm seeing here: "has the encyclopaedia's best interests at heart, etc, etc". This is all and well and good but is completely worthless if someone cannot compromise and work with their fellow editors. And YRC's vast block log under both his current account and that of Off2riorob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) suggests he has a serious problem with this.
- Now that both editors have been blocked, the talkpage has calmed down, and the article is being calmly and consensually edited by rational people who have their heads screwed on the right way. This seems like a very good outcome, so why people are advocating that both editors be let off the leash to have at it again I don't know. Why protect the page, which will just stop sensible people from editing while this pair fight it out? It's not as if the article doesn't need improving.
- I'm open to persuasion, but this is where I'm at right now. LMK what you think. Moreschi (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, and I'm sorry, but saying I "blocked without warning" is just stupid. They obviously knew they were edit-warring, seeing as YRC made this thread here and Pdf created a thread at the 3rr report page. When new/newish editors edit war we warn them before we block to make sure they have actually read the policies on edit-warring and 3RR, so if they keep going they definitely knew they were doing something wrong. That obviously doesn't apply here, these are two experienced contributors who know the rules just fine. Moreschi (talk) 22:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- FWIW, although some will not be happy with me for saying so, I agree with the block. Things have calmed down considerably on the article Talk page. Both blocked editors were inflaming the situation both on the Talk page and in the article. It had gotten completely out of control. Pdfpdf has not commented on the block, but YRC has not helped his case by his post-block comments. Therefore, the block has already served a preventative purpose in ameliorating the content dispute, and hopefully it will serve yet another preventative purpose by giving YRC a chance to cool off and reflect.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Would you (Bbb23) have edited the page if YRC had not initiated this ANI thread? Nobody Ent 22:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- You make a good argument and I reverse my opinion that he should be unblocked. I didn't look at the talk page before, but, doing so now, I see that the issue was both of them and YRC was just as much in the wrong here. SilverserenC 22:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- My goal was simply to bring you here and ask you to reconsider your options and see if there was a better solution that would best serve Wikipedia in dealing with two hard-headed, but long time editors. I do tend to cut some extra slack when 3RR BLP is even a remote possibility, I tend to allow for a greater degree of "heat" in the talk page discussions than others, and my nature is to give credit for someone who brings the issue to ANI themselves. You are not obligated to do the same, obviously. If you decide that blocking is the only, or the best, option, we will just have to disagree, and I won't labor the issue. There are some problems that YRC needs to work on, I am just not convinced that a block is conducive to achieving the end result here. Dennis Brown - 2¢© 23:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think blocking both is certainly the way to achieve the best end result as far as the article is concerned, and I think events would bear me out on this one (as Bbb23 notes). As far as YRC's future editing is concerned - I guess he may take some time out to cool off, but that doesn't seem likely, given his hot-headed threats to sock etc. Like you I doubt blocking is optimal here, but then letting him off the hook is hardly going to help him either when 5 months from now someone gets completely fed up with his unwillingness to negotiate and drags his backside to ArbCom. But I agree he is a concern, as he obviously does valuable work it would be a pity to lose. Maybe once the block is expired we should think about a mentoring agreement? Moreschi (talk) 23:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that some form of mentoring is in order. Perhaps a few weeks of
imprisonmentvacation at Pesky's Tea House. I am concerned that the block may make him less receptive, rather than more, but it is easy to see that you and I share the same overall opinions on the matter, even if our ideas on the best solutions differ slightly. He is a valuable asset to Wikipedia most of the time, but it is the rest of the time that worries us both. As I stated, the goal was to consider the total solution here, and in the end, I do think he is a valuable enough contributor to warrant this second look, regardless of what decision you make in the end. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that some form of mentoring is in order. Perhaps a few weeks of
(edit conflict)Big picture: YRC should be unblocked because, although he went beyond 3rr -- he caught himself and came here, and had already stopped editing the article after initiating this ANI thread. Blocks are supposed to be preventative -- this one is escalatory. Yes, he goes off from time to time, but sometimes good faith is ignoring excessive rhetoric. Is the block good in the sense that's it's supportable by policy yes. Does it make sense in a bureaurcracy free community? No. Nobody Ent 23:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- This "escalatory not preventative" argument is somewhat undermined by his later claims to be prepared to keep edit-warring, socking if necessary, to get his way. Though I agree we must make allowances for hyperbole.
- Big picture: has the dual-block improved the article and the surrounding editing atmosphere? Unequivocally yes. Aren't admin actions taken to improve encyclopedic content a good thing?
- And why on earth should we unblock YRC and not Pdf, as you seem to be saying? Both of them acted equally badly, as the most cursory review makes clear. Moreschi (talk) 23:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; it can't be known whether the editing atmosphere improved because the editors were blocked or because YRC stopped edit warring of his own accord and came here. With regard to pdf I've got no problem with unblocking both editors. Nobody Ent 23:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Stopped edit-warring? His edit made just prior to posting here was yet another revert, done 25 minutes before creating this thread. That's after the big chain of 5/6 reverts about 5/6 hours earlier in the morning. Moreschi (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly. Was edit warring (bad). Wasn't caught or 3rr reported, stopped of his own accord (here), and came here seeking assistance.Nobody Ent 00:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Stopped edit-warring? His edit made just prior to posting here was yet another revert, done 25 minutes before creating this thread. That's after the big chain of 5/6 reverts about 5/6 hours earlier in the morning. Moreschi (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- The question isn't whether admin actions are a good thing (they are) -- it's what action was the best action to take; I simply don't think that blocking was the best action for the reasons elucidated above. Nobody Ent 00:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- The best action for the article, or the best for YRC? Two different questions. Moreschi (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Neither is particularly important -- the standard should be what is best for Wikipedia as a whole. The answer, of course, is an active YRC acting in accordance with community standards, which was not happening today. The question is what sequence of actions can we as a community take to most likely achieve that aim. Nobody Ent 01:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- The best action for the article, or the best for YRC? Two different questions. Moreschi (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; it can't be known whether the editing atmosphere improved because the editors were blocked or because YRC stopped edit warring of his own accord and came here. With regard to pdf I've got no problem with unblocking both editors. Nobody Ent 23:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Coming here was an attempt to get public opinion on his side, a tactic he's used before. His actions on the article are out of line. The more I read the talk page of the article in question, the more I am appalled at YRC's actions here. For example, the positive quote that this ANI discussion was made in regards to was being removed by the other user because the quote was supporting an action that the subject himself stated he never did in the first place. That's why it was being removed and that's a perfectly good reason to remove it. But instead of discussing it on the talk page, YRC began edit warring it in. And it's not just this, but several other things over the past few days that he's refused to properly discuss on the talk page and just edit warred with it. I mean, his first comment on the talk page back on the 11th was "HI - PLEASE DON'T REPLACE CONTENT DISPUTED AT THE NOTICEBOARD WITHOUT CONSENSUS SUPPORT THERE = THANKS - ALSO PLEASE PRESENT YOUR ASSERTED ADDITIONAL RELIABLE CITATIONS THERE FOR INVESTIGATION - THANKS". That was his first comment. It wasn't after others had ignored him and not presented sources, this was his first contribution to the discussion. SilverserenC 23:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Threat to evade bans/blocks
Could an administrator act on this threat please? Note, the account is currently blocked due to edit warring.[6] For the block log of the previous account, please see this link. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Better to just let things settle -- haste makes waste (Ents just hate hasty actions, you know). Nobody Ent 21:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether the initial block was inappropriate (and I believe I would agree with you, Ent, that it was), this threat to sock, which presumably applies any time he is blocked, is extremely concerning. SilverserenC 21:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's angry. Saying he's going to do something doesn't mean he will do it. He's a vigorous defender of BLP's, and sometimes his defense of the rules clouds his practical judgment. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think the issue is that his defense of the rules too often falls into what his opinion of the rules is and this leads to disruption. And saying he will sock in order to "defend living people against this project" kinda implies that he's not doing it for the benefit of Wikipedia. SilverserenC 22:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He is simply venting. Reading too much into this is not productive. Even while at the height of rage, his motives are purely about what he thinks is best for Wikipedia, not solely to be disruptive. Allow him the same breathing room you would ask us to give you in the same circumstance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's angry. Saying he's going to do something doesn't mean he will do it. He's a vigorous defender of BLP's, and sometimes his defense of the rules clouds his practical judgment. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Per what I said right above to Bugs, saying "I will still defend living people against this project" means that he isn't doing what's best for Wikipedia, but what he thinks is best for living people in his own opinion. SilverserenC 22:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which I construe to be what is in the best interest of Wikipedia, as that is the first goal of BLP "Do no harm" here. You just see it differently than I do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:08, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've always found it amazing that the people who feel it's their mission to protect living people are 1. either omnipotent or capable of mind-reading and 2. can so often treat other Wikipedia users so badly. I've never understood why BLP enforcement has to entail such harsh responses towards the other people who are working to build an encyclopedia. People should be able to have different opinions on what's BLP compliant without having the lowest common denominator screaming "BLP BLP CALL THE WIKICOPS!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs every time someone disagrees on one of these matters. My goodness, it's just a fucking website, in the grand scheme of things we probably aren't going to make that huge a difference in a person's life unless they're affiliated with Wikipedia and/or choose to make a huge issue out of it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's the defeatist attitude that allows BLP-violators and other kinds of POV-pushers to get their way here. Ask Mr. Wales how much BLP matters. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've always found it amazing that the people who feel it's their mission to protect living people are 1. either omnipotent or capable of mind-reading and 2. can so often treat other Wikipedia users so badly. I've never understood why BLP enforcement has to entail such harsh responses towards the other people who are working to build an encyclopedia. People should be able to have different opinions on what's BLP compliant without having the lowest common denominator screaming "BLP BLP CALL THE WIKICOPS!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs every time someone disagrees on one of these matters. My goodness, it's just a fucking website, in the grand scheme of things we probably aren't going to make that huge a difference in a person's life unless they're affiliated with Wikipedia and/or choose to make a huge issue out of it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which I construe to be what is in the best interest of Wikipedia, as that is the first goal of BLP "Do no harm" here. You just see it differently than I do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:08, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Per what I said right above to Bugs, saying "I will still defend living people against this project" means that he isn't doing what's best for Wikipedia, but what he thinks is best for living people in his own opinion. SilverserenC 22:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
In general I agree Blade, although BLPs also can pose a financial and legal burden on the Foundation, so I always say to go the most conservative side of content when it comes to BLPs. I am not a fan of YRC's methods, and I know he isn't a fan of mine, yet here I am. His methods do need some refining, but blocking isn't the means to that end. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:25, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's not like I've never stood up for BLP when it was necessary (see [7], which was a BLP violation but isn't now because the person in question is now dead), but claiming that calling someone "Professor Emeritus" is a BLP violation on the grounds it makes him sound "old and washed up" (I am not making this up, I can get the thread if you like) is absurd, and that seems to be what "BLP enforcement" largely consists of. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I think it is probably time for the community to ban Youreallycan for continuing to push his POV that BLP subjects should be treated with respect. With all due respect to Moreschi, this block should have been indef. We don't need people on this project who are more interested in the feelings of people than they are with following the rules. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good one. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- The joking reverse psychology is just more insulting than anything else, DC. SilverserenC 22:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Two edit-warriors get blocked--what's new? They think they were right--what's new? Rob gets blocked for edit-warring in the defense of the BLP policy (in his opinion) and then blows up and starts saying stupid s**t--what's new? Rob won't be banned (the good outweighs the bad) and all this will blow over. Hopefully, in the meantime someone who cares will look at the article and edit it properly. Moving right along. Drmies (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- How do you know this "someone who cares" editor actually exists? Are you claiming there are no existing Wikipedia articles which violate our BLP policy? Nobody Ent 22:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently this editor does exist and he is Bbb23, among others. I mean, you're involved on the talk page too, albeit with only the single word comment. SilverserenC 22:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- The best way to avoid edit wars on articles is for articles to be decent in the first place. There are plenty of editors who are, but you said "know" where I said "hopefully"--so I don't know jack. And why would you ask me that second question? I've worked on BLP violations for years, sometimes with Rob--I know very well what poor condition that area on WP is in. Where have I suggested that there are no violations?? I apologize for the double question mark, but I can't figure out where you got that from. I also apologize for twice ending a sentence with a preposition. Drmies (talk) 23:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Need a statement reversing sock threat
We really need Youreallycan to explain the sock threats he made. If they were just made while he was angry, fine. But they can't just sit there ignored, they are too blatant and, admittedly, frightening. A removal of those comments on his talk page by him would go a long way toward showing he didn't mean them. SilverserenC 23:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be too frightened of YRC socking. For starters, he sticks out like sore thumb and would be caught instantly. "Oh, a new editor, very brazen, has a deep knowledge of BLP and is constantly participating there"..... He knows that, don't take it so seriously. We have dozens of socks roaming through the halls every day and we manage just fine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:25, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- That...does not answer what I said at all. You're saying that we should ignore socks because they exist? SilverserenC 23:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can't you discuss your point without your last sentence? Insulting, unwarranted, and unnecessary.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)x2 Removed, sorry. I just don't understand how one could defend him to the point of practically saying that socks are okay. SilverserenC 23:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm not defending him, he isn't a friend. I'm pretty sure he doesn't like me. He openly opposed me at my Request for Admin. I'm doing what I think is the right thing here, nothing more. His personal feelings regarding me aren't related to his contributions at Wikipedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Real socks generally don't announce themselves in advance and we already know how to deal with socks when they pop up. Go check SPI daily. His threat is likely an idle one, and he would be easy to spot if he was foolish enough to sock. How you drew your conclusion is beyond me. How you expressed it was unnecessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't change the fact that the threat should be reverted by him. We often block for threats of socking and if he refuses to say he didn't mean it, then we should do the same here. SilverserenC 23:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- And he was just blocked a very short time ago. Perhaps we should at least allow his blood pressure to return to normal before putting any further demands on him. Even if you think he is 100% in the wrong, you have to be realistic and understand that people vent when they are blocked. This is typical. Give them a day before you expect them to retract their unfortunate words. It isn't like he is asking for an unblock, and likely is isn't observing your requests at this time anyway. He will eat his words in due time. I'm just saying that you can't take it very seriously at this stage. Had he been indef'ed, I would be more willing to consider the possibility. For now, a little patience is due. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't change the fact that the threat should be reverted by him. We often block for threats of socking and if he refuses to say he didn't mean it, then we should do the same here. SilverserenC 23:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should let this one go. It's far more likely to be just a ragequit along the lines of "ah, you may have blocked me now, but I'll win in the end!". Not to be taken seriously. Plus, if he does sock, as Dennis Brown says, he'll be easily caught and promptly permabanned. Moreschi (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I happen to think the blocks were ill-considered, and YRC's umbrage is pretty understandable in the context of the edits he objected to. Collect (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- YRC does stick out like a sore thumb, and has a temper which led to all of this. But he's one of the good guys and cares too much. Plus he knows we know him, and he knows about SPI and all that. Nothing to worry about. Collect, I'm usually with you but not in this case. Sorry. Drmies (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I said the other day on one of Jimbo's subpages that before Youreallycan came along, BLPN was a wasteland that had tumbleweeds blowing across it. I do mean that. I would post something there sometimes, and it would be archived without response. Youreallycan is a tower of strength when it comes to lessening the impact of malicious editing on our reputation. I consider him quite as important to Wikipedia's functioning as Moonriddengirl, say, is to copyright matters. BLP policy demands that articles be balanced, and include positive and negative information. Give the man some credit. I very much doubt that he was trying to make the article worse, and I have seen dozens and dozens of hatchet jobs he rescued. The stuff he put in was sourced, [8], and there was nothing supportive of the subject there before. (And Nikolic later admitted he had indeed made the post, and there is a screenshot of it here.) JN466 02:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
And please unblock him as soon as he has calmed down sufficiently. JN466 02:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
And by the way, the whole Facebook paragraph is just WP:ADAM. It's unencyclopedic, recentist, and undue. The whole thing deserves two sentences, if that, not a 200-word paragraph. JN466 02:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- JN466 is correct and YRC should be unblocked after cooling down as he is often Wikipedia's only defense against BLP violations. After a very quick look, I'm not sure that exceeding 3RR on BLP grounds was a good idea in the current case, although YRC's instinct is correct: it is massively UNDUE to put a major section on "Facebook posts" in a politician's BLP—the subject "gained international attention" after posting some very tame and understandable (although misjudged) responses to major trolling, and now he has a Wikipedia article that permanently records the 15 minutes of trivia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Proposals for community restrictionsI'm completely unsurprised to see this happening again. I strongly suggest that editors read my comments at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive730#Behavioral, not topic-based, problem in which I identified five key behaviours that keep getting this editor into trouble:
He accepted my feedback (and we conversed by email as well), saying "Hi I will happily take your comments on board as you offered them, in good faith and from a helpful perspective and although I don't expect moving forward to be as regular a contributor as I have been in the past, I will focus on improving the points you have raised. I agree with most although not quite all of them." Regrettably he doesn't seem to have got anywhere in terms of improving his performance. Under his old account, Off2riorob (talk · contribs), he was blocked 12 times between March 2009 and November 2011 - an average of about once every three months. Under his current account, Youreallycan (talk · contribs), he has been blocked five times since this January alone - i.e. once a month. In other words, the problem with his behaviour is getting worse. In total he has been blocked once for battlefield conduct, three times for disruptive editing, four times for personal attacks and eight times for edit warring. I know he does useful work in the BLP area but this level of disruption really isn't acceptable, and if it wasn't for the work he does on BLPs I have no doubt that he would have been indeffed long ago. This needs to be resolved. I'm going to suggest a couple of community-imposed restrictions that will address Youreallycan's conduct while allowing him to continue his work on BLPs. Frankly, the alternative is arbitration, as this has gone on for far too long without an adequate resolution. Prioryman (talk) 07:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC) Proposal 1: 1RR restrictionAt the very least the edit warring has to stop. I therefore propose that the community impose on Youreallycan an editing restriction similar to the one imposed on FellGleaming (talk · contribs) in this discussion, along the lines of:
Please indicate below whether you support or oppose this proposal. Prioryman (talk) 07:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others on proposal 1
Proposal 2: civility restrictionSimilarly I propose that the community impose on Youreallycan a civility restriction similar to the one imposed on Mk5384 (talk · contribs) in this discussion, along the lines of:
Please indicate below whether you support or oppose this proposal. Prioryman (talk) 07:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others on proposal 2
I would just like to comment that making the following proposals and remarks about User:Youreallycan when he is currently blocked and unable to defend himself is not kind. I would encourage the individuals here to allow User:Youreallycan to elaborate on his perspective. Perhaps the reviewing administrator could unblock him and allow him to do so here. I am confident that User:Youreallycan will be friendly and generous when explaining the situation from his point of view. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 08:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
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Alternative proposal
We call an end to WP:ADAM, get serious about wanting to be an encyclopedia rather than a tabloid aggregator, and get a few admins to hang out at BLPN rather than here and actually use WP:BLPBAN to warn and block editors who use Wikipedia to take their animus out on various BLP subjects and write coatracks and hatchet jobs.
Flagged revisions wouldn't be bad either, but this would do for a start. --JN466 12:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- All good, but it doesn't do anything to address the conduct problems that are resulting in YRC notching up one block a month. What are your suggestions for dealing with that? Prioryman (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- YRC is notching up a block a month because in his work at BLPN, he is typically opposed by several editors whose editing is directly responsible for the article coming up at BLPN, and who are reverting articles back into a non-compliant state. Again, if admins made BLPN patrol a priority, and warned editors who are not editing in compliance with policy, this would relieve a lot of the stress on YRC. --JN466 21:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
YRC promised not to sock or edit-war, in future. It's unblocking time. GoodDay (talk) 12:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- He has promised many times not to edit-war in future. What has changed? How are we going to avoid another such situation? I'm looking for suggestions here. Prioryman (talk) 12:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Solution
As Youreallycan has clearly indicated they "get it", and is showing a willingness to voluntarily accept sanctions on their talk page, I suggest we wrap up this part of the exercise. He has assured us that he has no intention of socking, as I expected he would. I have offered to assist him in developing better methods for dealing with disputes, and while he hasn't accepted outright, he has shown a willingness to work with me and others to find a long term solution, and I will continue to work with him on an ongoing basis, to the extent that he will allow. As for unblocking or leaving the block in place, I will leave that to the blocking admin to determine, as he is fully capable of reviewing the situation and determining the best course of action using his own judgement without any further input from me on the issue. I am convinced YRC does understand the problem. Where he goes from here is up to him. At this time, it is my opinion that no further action is needed beyond those I have already mentioned. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- He has accepted mentoring, updated to reflect this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Dennis. For those who have followed the discussions on YRC's Talk page, he has indeed calmed down and stated that his sock threats were in the heat of anger and he was venting. In particular, Dennis and YRC have been discussing different community-acceptable possibilities for when YRC can edit again. I think we should drop this and move on. I might also add that none of the proposed restrictions on YRC above has been supported by a consensus.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would agree except this has happened time and time again. YRC gets on a tear about BLP, he insults or edit wars, and then he "gets it". Rinse and repeat. Let the block stick or we'll be back here again. AniMate 15:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- In my post above I almost commented on this perspective, which is understandable. How much leeway we give an editor who engages in repetitive disruptive behavior is, of course, a judgment call, but it should take into account, as others have mentioned, how much repetitive constructive behavior the editor also engages in. With YRC, there's a tremendous amount of that. His contributive vigilance is prolific. I haven't paid that much attention to his pace recently, but I used to get tired just watching him. I might also add that my sense is although YRC does still lose it, as here, he appears to be more and more amenable to change. In my view, there has been some real movement by him in a positive direction. I don't think his latest positive comments on his Talk page are insincere. I think he should be given the opportunity to progress. All that said, I would allow the 72-hour block to expire on its own - I wouldn't unblock him. He's using that time productively to reflect and to discuss how to move forward.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would agree except this has happened time and time again. YRC gets on a tear about BLP, he insults or edit wars, and then he "gets it". Rinse and repeat. Let the block stick or we'll be back here again. AniMate 15:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a side note...I wouldn't be too quick to say that YRC has a good handle on BLP. His opinions on BLP are at times idiosyncratic with both the letter and spirit of BLP. The strained logic displayed at Wikipedia:BLPN#Adam_Yauch are a recent example. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think a blow-by-blow analysis of YRC's application of BLP policy serves any productive purpose, particularly the one you cite, an unsual situation and one where you disagreed with YRC. BLP policy is not the easiest to interpret and apply, and many experienced editors can disagree in any particular case. If we start scrutinizing each article in which YRC was involved, we might as well open up a new noticeboard devoted to YRC.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a side note...I wouldn't be too quick to say that YRC has a good handle on BLP. His opinions on BLP are at times idiosyncratic with both the letter and spirit of BLP. The strained logic displayed at Wikipedia:BLPN#Adam_Yauch are a recent example. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- For the record, the specific steps that have been taken are that (1) Dennis Brown has kindly offered to act as YRC's mentor, which YRC has agreed to; and (2) that YRC has agreed to my suggestion that he voluntarily observe a 1RR restriction. In addition, Dennis and I have both offered to counsel YRC if he encounters difficulties in the BLP area in future. This offers a pretty good basis to go forward without further incidents. Given this agreement I've closed my earlier proposal for community sanctions. Prioryman (talk) 17:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- When his block expires, please attempt to counsel him whenever issues relating to Judaism and homosexuality come up. He seems to have some real problems dealing with both, and his intransigence can at times be detrimental to collegial editing. AniMate 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Unblock both proposal
It's been enough time, they get it, we get it. They both need to stop edit warring and use the talk page or other dispute resolution channels. Should edit warring happen again from either of them, normal blocks should follow Regardless of any of this nonsense that YRC should get a free pass because of BLP. Anyways, I propose an unblock of both User:Youreallycan and User:Pdfpdf as time served. I'm not sure if someone has done this already anyways, but it's best to just make it official. SilverserenC 21:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I concur with the unblock request. There are now measures in place to try to prevent a recurrence of YRC's actions and he is aware of the need to change his approach. I think the block's served its purpose by now. Prioryman (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I still oppose, at least in regards to YRC. You say he "get's it." Well he's supposedly "gotten it" multiple times before, and yet here we are again. I think a loud and clear message needs to be sent to him that he needs to change his behavior. Since he clearly didn't get it from the numerous previous blocks, I think this one should stick. AniMate 21:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, he has too many buddies on-wiki to do that. I'm willing to give his edit warring and incivility one last chance, but the next time this happens, I am going to vigorously oppose unblocking. SilverserenC 21:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I hear you. I've told him that this is the last chance saloon for him and the next stop is arbitration. If it comes to that, I'll file a case myself. Claims that his BLP work excuse persistent edit warring will get shot down pretty quickly there, I can assure you. Prioryman (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not like he's blocked indefinitely. It's 72 hours. Wikipedia, YRC's buddies, and the BLPs can survive 3 days without him editing. There have been way too many "next times". This doesn't need to go to arbitration and he needs to stay blocked. AniMate 21:36, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I hear you. I've told him that this is the last chance saloon for him and the next stop is arbitration. If it comes to that, I'll file a case myself. Claims that his BLP work excuse persistent edit warring will get shot down pretty quickly there, I can assure you. Prioryman (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, he has too many buddies on-wiki to do that. I'm willing to give his edit warring and incivility one last chance, but the next time this happens, I am going to vigorously oppose unblocking. SilverserenC 21:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I still oppose, at least in regards to YRC. You say he "get's it." Well he's supposedly "gotten it" multiple times before, and yet here we are again. I think a loud and clear message needs to be sent to him that he needs to change his behavior. Since he clearly didn't get it from the numerous previous blocks, I think this one should stick. AniMate 21:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Suggest checking with the admin who blocked, at a minimum. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. Both knowingly edit warred and knew they shouldn't, and they're solid blocks. Besides neither has posted an unblock request or edited for several hours. I don't understand the rush to unblock. AniMate 21:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest I'm indifferent about whether the block is lifted now or left to expire naturally. It doesn't really make much difference either way. I think Silver's point above is simply that the block (at least in YRC's case) doesn't seem to have much of a useful purpose to it now that the issue seems to have been resolved. Or to put it another way, it's now more punitive than preventative. Prioryman (talk) 21:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's where we'll have to disagree. These issues have been resolved before. Promises to change have been made. He's agreed to leave topics and to reform and here we are again. Keeping him blocked is preventative, because each and every time he's been unblocked we end up back here. Blocks lose all meaning if they are lifted because of promises that are made and not kept. If you really think his behavior has been problematic, let him sit out this block because there have been way to many "next time the block will stick." AniMate 22:05, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest I'm indifferent about whether the block is lifted now or left to expire naturally. It doesn't really make much difference either way. I think Silver's point above is simply that the block (at least in YRC's case) doesn't seem to have much of a useful purpose to it now that the issue seems to have been resolved. Or to put it another way, it's now more punitive than preventative. Prioryman (talk) 21:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. Both knowingly edit warred and knew they shouldn't, and they're solid blocks. Besides neither has posted an unblock request or edited for several hours. I don't understand the rush to unblock. AniMate 21:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
For some time (the past few years at least), I have been working on the articles for the American (turned international) television program The Amazing Race. After the airing of each episode, I search the Commons or Flickr for free images that could be used in the sections/episode summaries of each article, usually depicting locations visited and rarely being similar to tasks performed. On two occasions, I decided I could not find anything free on either website to accurately depict some of the events in the episode and I took a promotional photo that the production team uploads to their website and include that as the only non-free image (excepting the title card in the main infobox) in the article. This has never been an issue until now.
Sometime last week, Sven Manguard (talk · contribs) decided to orphan an image I uploaded to depict an event that took place during The Amazing Race 19 program, claiming "This is no place for a non-free file". I did not discover this until Friday when one of the "Your non-free image has been orphaned" bots notified me on my talk page. I replaced it (another user had put an unrelated free image in its place after discovering the promotional photo had disappeared) and raised the issue on Sven's talk page. He responded, citing WP:NFCC#8, and proceeded to orphan the photo again and then listed the photo on FFD (I unorphaned the photo as it should not have been orphaned mid-FFD as far as I am aware). This was all on Friday.
Today, I discovered that Sven had decided to start FFDs for the other four non-free images being used on Amazing Race pages and orphaned two other promotional photos citing NFCC 8 because there are free images showing locations and simple activities related to the actions in the program on the 20 season pages. This is getting unnecessarily disruptive at this stage as it appears he has decided that this entire range of articles should not be allowed to have non-free images at all, except for the title card. They are seven non-free images (three of which depict the season's winners at the finish line, which arguably are not necessary) amongst around 300 free images throughout the 20 or so pages, and his argument is that some other free image exists to depict an event in the show or represent that particular episode, when there is clearly no free alternative to contestants in the act of performing a unique task that is not reproducable. Again, Sven's actions are extremely disruptive and he is stretching the definition of WP:NFCC#8 to say that these few photos are not allowed.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that something's definitely wrong with Sven here, as I also feel that he is disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think Sven has made a good faith deletion nomination on the photo. (Whether it actually meets or fails NFCC is a topic for the FfD discussion) As for whether the photo should be orphaned on nomination, is there any policy or guideline that specifies whether the image should be left in pending deletion discussion on NFCC grounds? Monty845 20:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just one photo. It's a whole series of them that Sven has decided should not be allowed because there are free images to allude to events. Even if the one of the contestant going into the cave is not the best, he said that this more specific one of the task in the cave being performed I suggested as a possible replacement should not be allowed as an alternative either. With his actions today it is clear he thinks no fair use images are to be allowed on these pages, because free ones have been sought out for the other 250 episodes.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- How important is that to understanding the topic of the Amazing race really? I mean, would the reader come away from the article with a substantial gap in their understanding of what the race was? I would say not, sure it provides a vivid graphical illustration, but it is not necessary to understand the topic. Monty845 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It provides more understanding than just a photo of a location they happened to have visited in that episode, that's for sure. Using an example from one of the photos he put up for deletion today, we can't say "they drank from thousands of cups of tea" and just have a photo of the building it happened in.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- How important is that to understanding the topic of the Amazing race really? I mean, would the reader come away from the article with a substantial gap in their understanding of what the race was? I would say not, sure it provides a vivid graphical illustration, but it is not necessary to understand the topic. Monty845 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just one photo. It's a whole series of them that Sven has decided should not be allowed because there are free images to allude to events. Even if the one of the contestant going into the cave is not the best, he said that this more specific one of the task in the cave being performed I suggested as a possible replacement should not be allowed as an alternative either. With his actions today it is clear he thinks no fair use images are to be allowed on these pages, because free ones have been sought out for the other 250 episodes.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think Sven has made a good faith deletion nomination on the photo. (Whether it actually meets or fails NFCC is a topic for the FfD discussion) As for whether the photo should be orphaned on nomination, is there any policy or guideline that specifies whether the image should be left in pending deletion discussion on NFCC grounds? Monty845 20:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- To some extent, Sven is right. NFCC#1, replacability, does not care if a free image currently exists as long as one most likely can exist, and ergo a non-free image as a substitute is not allowed. Unless said countries have no freedom of panoroma that would prevent free images from being taken, the use of non-frees to depict a leg in the show is improper.
- This is not excusing his method (removing a file to claim it orphaned, rather than FFD'ing the image to get consensus before removal) of achieving this. --MASEM (t) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am astonished to see you support the legend that "removing a file to claim it orphaned" is somehow illegitimate. If you see a non-free file in an article that shouldn't be there, removing it is the obvious first response per WP:BOLD and WP:SOFIXIT, and subsequently tagging it as orphaned is the formally inevitable next step. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- At least the nomination I looked at declared he had orphaned it under Criteria 8, so its not like he orphaned it and then acted like he just found it that way. The underlying question though is should the image be orphaned pursuant to NFCC 8 at the time the problem is detected, or remain in the article until the deletion discussion on the underlying image concludes. Is there a specific policy on that? Monty845 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a single general answer to that. There are several factors involved: on the one hand, non-free media generally require consensus for inclusion, not consensus for removal, so in a case where there is a serious, reasoned objection to an image it's a reasonable expectation that an image should be left out pending consensus to the contrary. Also, as I said above, removal is always a legitimate WP:BOLD first response to an image perceived as inappropriate. On the other hand, it is sometimes practically advantageous to have the image in the article while an FFD runs, for the simple reason that it makes it easier for observers to judge its usage and the appropriateness of the FUR. Also, I think it is a demand of fair process that if an image gets orphaned immediately prior or during an FFD, its orphaned status should then not be seen as triggering automatic timed-speedy deletion concurrently with the FFD, but the FFD should be allowed to run its course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- At least the nomination I looked at declared he had orphaned it under Criteria 8, so its not like he orphaned it and then acted like he just found it that way. The underlying question though is should the image be orphaned pursuant to NFCC 8 at the time the problem is detected, or remain in the article until the deletion discussion on the underlying image concludes. Is there a specific policy on that? Monty845 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am astonished to see you support the legend that "removing a file to claim it orphaned" is somehow illegitimate. If you see a non-free file in an article that shouldn't be there, removing it is the obvious first response per WP:BOLD and WP:SOFIXIT, and subsequently tagging it as orphaned is the formally inevitable next step. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Unless its a straight up obvious violation that can't be fixed by any amount of editing, removal before discussion is not the way to go. You cannot claim that on NFCC#8 violation since that is absolutely subjective and can only be determined by consensus - and one that can be fixed by adding sourced text, or the like. NFCC#1 is a bit more objective, but even then, discussion before removal is better wikipractice. --MASEM (t) 20:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- What has the subjectivity of NFCC#8 got to do with anything? You don't need any more prior discussion and consensus for removing an image than for removing any other piece of content, for whatever reason. WP:BOLD applies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, WP:BRD applies, but unfortunately, after Ryulong's revert, Sven did not begin discussion (either via talk page of FFD), but he reverted again, violating BRD. This is inappropriate. SilverserenC 20:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, maybe if you're randomly going through articles and you find a NFC you don't think meets the criteria, you can remove it. But if you're getting those removals reverted, re-removing is a violation of WP:BRD and the next proper step is either at the talk page or to FFD. Since Sven is doing this en masse and has been reverted a few times and on related pages, he should very well know his actions are not fully agreed to and should approaching this via talk pages. (I use past actions on people like Beta and the like in maintaining NFC as reasoning here). And yes, NFCC#8 is very subjective. While BOLD says you can remove it, if it can be fixed, there's better and less contentious routes for fixing it if you can't do it yourself. This is comparable to adding tags like cn instead of wiping out sections of text that are otherwise not contentious to an article. --MASEM (t) 20:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- What has the subjectivity of NFCC#8 got to do with anything? You don't need any more prior discussion and consensus for removing an image than for removing any other piece of content, for whatever reason. WP:BOLD applies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He has not been citing NFCC#1, though. It's been NFCC#8, stating that this one non-free image does not add to the article. While he is arguably right for the three photos of teams at the finish line, and Marcus Pollard on a rope going down into a cave was probably not the best choice I could have made for non-free photos (I could not find any free photos of the cave itself on Flickr, and one can only say "[X] was the Pit Stop for this Leg of the Race" so many times), he's been removing all non-free photos/screencaps from the articles, and only after his orphaning has been challenged is he sending everything to FFD.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- And that is precisely the correct process. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- If he then took it to FFD immediately afterward, then yes. But reverting again is definitely wrong. SilverserenC 20:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- So he made one (1) revert in the process. Shrug. Big deal. Why is this a matter for ANI? What would we do if people routine came here complaining about other editors once they made their first revert on something? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's being disruptive across several articles within one topic area. This is why I brought it here.—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- As an outsider who is semi-active with FFD, I've noticed this ANI dealings, and I wanted to toss my opinion in for what it is worth. Every image that I have seen that Sven has nominated for FFD from the Amazing race does indeed fail NFCC#8 and therefore it is appropriate that he nominates it for deletion through FFD. Hardly is his doing so disruptive. Also, this whole incident notice is a little unwarranted since he only made one mistake (assuming good faith). Also, for the record, Sven is most likely not targeting anything or anyone as he very often goes through images for cleanup. Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth. -- ТимофейЛееСуда. 21:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- He's being disruptive across several articles within one topic area. This is why I brought it here.—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- So he made one (1) revert in the process. Shrug. Big deal. Why is this a matter for ANI? What would we do if people routine came here complaining about other editors once they made their first revert on something? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- If he then took it to FFD immediately afterward, then yes. But reverting again is definitely wrong. SilverserenC 20:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- And that is precisely the correct process. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hey all, just got back in. Both times I removed the original image from the article I left a rationale in the edit summary. When I nominated it for deletion after the second removal, it was because I realized that the image would just get put back in, making the whole excercise pointless, so I listed it at FFD mentioning that I was the one that orphaned it. As for the rest of the images that I listed at FfD, Ryulong and the other TAR people managed to create articles for sixteen seasons without using a single non-free image, so the claim that the photos from the other four articles somehow meet NFCC #8's standards are, to me, laughable. I understand that Ryulong has an attachment to the article, and that may be affecting his judgement on the matter, but the fact that he's found solutions to every other event, and free photos of the other competetors, means that he has no arguement for keeping the photos. As for the last two removals, I intended on replacing them with free images from the season articles when I got back in tonight, but at this point I'm in no great rush to help Ryulong out. If he can't be bothered to edit without violating policy, and then goes on the attack when it's pointed out, then I'm not going to help fix the problem. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't see why it's an issue that two out of 200 images on the season's pages are non-free. And I do not think that replacing the non-free photos on the central article is going to be worth it. They are used to accompany text that defines the general rules of the program. You can't just take a photo being used to represent the event on another article to replace those.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- see WP:VEGAN --Guerillero | My Talk 03:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's a new one. But, to keep with that analogy, I'm the one bringing animal products to the vegan potluck. Perhaps I did not need to use non-free images for two of the show's 200 or so episodes when I found free ones for the other 198 (I'd prefer that they be kept because they are still educational), but Sven said he was planning on replacing two non-free images on the main page of the show, which are being used to help define the show's terminology, with free photos as found in what are effectively the episode lists. I assume this would entail replacing the photo of contestants eating large quantities of Argentine beef with a platter of meat and alluding to the events without actually showing the event in question.—Ryulong (竜龙) 04:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not really that new. It's been on Angr's user page since 2007 and to his credit, he never closes FFDs on non-free images. The question that comes to mind when I read that essay is "Are we a free (libre) encyclopedia or are we a free (beer) encyclopedia that just happens to use a libre license?" --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's a new one. But, to keep with that analogy, I'm the one bringing animal products to the vegan potluck. Perhaps I did not need to use non-free images for two of the show's 200 or so episodes when I found free ones for the other 198 (I'd prefer that they be kept because they are still educational), but Sven said he was planning on replacing two non-free images on the main page of the show, which are being used to help define the show's terminology, with free photos as found in what are effectively the episode lists. I assume this would entail replacing the photo of contestants eating large quantities of Argentine beef with a platter of meat and alluding to the events without actually showing the event in question.—Ryulong (竜龙) 04:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- see WP:VEGAN --Guerillero | My Talk 03:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You shouldn't orphan an image if you send it to FFD - let the discussion see it in context. --MASEM (t) 04:05, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't see why it's an issue that two out of 200 images on the season's pages are non-free. And I do not think that replacing the non-free photos on the central article is going to be worth it. They are used to accompany text that defines the general rules of the program. You can't just take a photo being used to represent the event on another article to replace those.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
E4024 (talk · contribs) is an aggressive Turkish nationalist involved in edit-wars across multiple articles. In Cyprus [10] he is making unencyclopedic edits to the lede of the article [11] and edit warring over them [12] [13]. He has been making tendentious edits to that article for a while now [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] using inflammatory edit-summaries [20]. In Cyprus dispute he has been involved in a particularly nasty slow-edit-war since May 1st [21]. Again, edit-summaries are frequently hostile [22], mocking and attempting to intimidate other users. Talkpage posts are similarly disruptive, sometime purely inflammatory [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33]. He has already been warned [34] to cease and desist from this kind of behavior, to no avail. It is my distinct impression that this user is not here to help build a neutral encyclopedia. A strongly worded warning from an administrator that this kind of behavior is unacceptable seems to be in order at this point. Athenean (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Arrrrgggghhhh noooooo. Oh, good grief. Moreschi (talk) 00:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's probably the case. Alright, I'm off to get some sleep - I'm too tired now to think completely straight and don't want to be doing anything controversial half asleep. My initial reaction is to give notifications/sternly worded warnings to the main two edit warriors at Cyprus dispute, rapidly progressing to blocks/revert paroles/etc should this nonsense continue. I also note that Athenean is entirely correct in analyzing the frequent talkpage soapboxing of E4024, something that also needs to be addressed along with the edit warring. If anyone wants to act on this in the meantime please feel free. Otherwise I'll deal with it when I wake up. Best, Moreschi (talk) 00:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Have a good sleep Moreschi. May Greek gods protect you...--E4024 (talk) 06:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Looking over both the main- and the talkpage edits listed above, I don't find them particularly POV or inflammatory. Differentiating between Cyprus (the Island) and the Republic of Cyprus (which claims all of it, but only controls ~60%) seems to be a reasonable and encyclopedic thing to do. We describe the state as it is, not as it should be. The edit warring, on the other hand, is cause for concern. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you Stephan Schulz. I also thank Athenean for bringing the issue here, because as a newcomer I would not know how to do it. Sorry, everyone, for taking your time... --E4024 (talk) 08:25, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I have been traditionally involved with discussions regarding Cyprus, but not this time (we have got some more complex discussions on Turkish Wikipedia currently :). As an outsider, I can say that E4024 has been involved in some obvious personal attacks, including an example above. However, the case is not that simple, at least in the case of the article of Cyprus dispute. E4024 is not just editing the stable version to push his POV, this is a two-sided dispute, between 23x2 and E4024. The dispute is over the first sentence, and 23x2 replaced the stable version with the current version. His source does not confirm anything about the Cyprus dispute (it does not even have the word "dispute" in it), but E4024's source doesn't either. Then E4024 reverted it and added his own reference, which started a slow-motion edit war between the two. 23x2 has gone as far as accusing one user of being E4024's puppet. I do not have any involvement in the case of the article of Cyprus, and I got involved in the "Cyprus dispute" without any particular intention :) In short, I think presenting the issue in the article of Cyprus dispute as completely consisting of POV-pushing by E4024 is incorrect, and I am not quite sure if Athenean has the right to call him an "aggressive Turkish nationalist". But certainly, he has violated WP:NPA and potentially 3RR (I don't know exactly). --Seksen (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for shedding light on the events. I wonder why you are not quite sure if Athenean has the right to call me "aggressive ... nationalist" while you have no doubts that I have been "involved in some obvious personal attacks". I am only trying to contribute to the articles that concern mainly Turks and Greeks, trying to make these texts less pro-Greek or -in other words- more objective. (BTW I am neither nationalist nor aggressive.)--E4024 (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I do not want to personalise things but I cannot understand the negative attitude against my edits. In the article Cyprus the user Spartiatisspartiatis has made 5 reverts in only 3 hours today. Why does Athenean not complain about Spartiatispartiatis? (The names are just like this, I am not being ironic.) I understand I will have to be less passionate in talk pages, but seeing these kinds of discrimination causes one to rebel. I am sorry about that. I do try to contribute to the articles in an honest, objective manner and will continue to do so. Any neutral party can see that looking into "all" of my edits, not only those hand-picked by one party. BTW, Athenean, the gentleman's name is Stephan Schultz, not StephenSchultz. --E4024 (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Per the universal rule of irony, it's actually "Stephan Schulz" ("a" in the given name, no "t" in the family name). In particular, I have nothing in common with Sergeant Schultz, except maybe girth... ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is good to have here people with sense of humour like you, Mister Schulz. I wish we edited the same pages... :-) --E4024 (talk) 10:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Source information inquiry for OTRS ticket # 2012040510010002
In order to process an OTRS ticket I need to know the author and any other relevant information as to the source of the following image:
Thank you for your time, MorganKevinJ(talk) 00:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sent an email, let me know if I misunderstood your question.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 01:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Since i am not an admin I can not view the information on the file description page. I need to know what source and author is cited on the file description page. MorganKevinJ(talk) 01:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Entire contents of the file description page just before deletion were as follows:
Extended content
|
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{{di-no permission|date=13 April 2012}} ==Summary== |
There had been few changes since upload; it was tagged for lack of permission, {{OTRS pending}} was added, and an admin extended the di-no permission template by a few days to give OTRS a little more time. Nothing else changed from upload to deletion. Nyttend (talk) 02:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Iloveandrea continued personal attacks.
Iloveandrea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Iloveandrea continue to attack other users in his last attack he calls other users racist and accusing them part of some faction or having agenda. Its not the first time that this user a attacking others he was already brought to AN/I.
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive750#User:Iloveandrea
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive722#User::Iloveandrea
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive742#Need_a_clue
--Shrike (talk) 07:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exaggeration. His edits are usually good. His talk comments are colorful, but so is a rainbow. Do you hate rainbows? Who, who hates rainbows? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 07:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:CIVIL is a policy. Policies are not optional. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exaggeration. His edits are usually good. His talk comments are colorful, but so is a rainbow. Do you hate rainbows? Who, who hates rainbows? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 07:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I did the last block, and I'm going to try to get the point across in my own colorful way on their talk page. I wouldn't block for this one incident, but would on sight if it happens again soon. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 09:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Iloveandrea has replied to my warning on my talk page [38] and have reassured me that they will avoid Israel-Palestine articles and a few others. At this point, I suggest giving them this last bit of rope and taking them at their word. I don't see any advantage to taking any additional action at this time. If there is any disruption by them in the near future, then blocking for a week or two on site would be warranted as they have been fully warned and are fully aware of the consequences. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just for the record he already promised that [39].--Shrike (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, he said he will not avoid IP articles. Also, it's not just this one incident as a quick look at his contributions from the last few days quite clearly shows. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're right (referring to Dennis's diff). He said he would "knock it off", but that was with respect to his incivility, not with respect to editing I/P articles, where he said: "I would say I'll stay away from Israel-Palestine articles ..., and thereby the unsavoury people that post on them, but then they win."--Bbb23 (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which smells of WP:BATTLEGROUND... - The Bushranger One ping only 19:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- My thought exactly when I read it ("then they win").--Bbb23 (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Colorful language is a warning sign of edit warring, but contentious AE disputes between parties with equally dubious edit history is best ignored unless something presents a case of true disruption to the project.
- Are we going to punish this editor for calling it a fight, thereby making his heresy into prophesy? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 23:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- My thought exactly when I read it ("then they win").--Bbb23 (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Seeing repeated posts of copyvios, and contesting the speedy deletions thereunto pertaining. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 08:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- User has not had any copyright warning until today, and has not reposted any deleted article. Speedies contested have been A7s. No action required unless these warnings are ignored. JohnCD (talk) 08:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. It isn't a "problem" quite yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 09:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Eisfbnore
Eisfbnore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) requested a sockpuppet investigation of No parking here (talk · contribs) less that three weeks after this user had been cleared in a previous investigation (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sju hav/Archive). While the sockpuppet investigation was underway Eisfbnore also went ahead and reverted all edits by the suspected user. As this investigation was concluded and No parking here was still not found to be a sockpuppet as charged, I undertook to revert all those articles that had been purged out of order. Now, 3 days following these events Eisfbnore again ventures to mass delete edits made by No parking here with no substantive explanation. I attempted to query Eisfbnore about this but my inquity was curtly deleted with the edit summary "you're not welcome here; stay off this page". I leave it up to the community to suggest what actions, if any, should be the result of this complaint. Suffice it to say, I find the behavior of Eisfbnore quite unacceptable. __meco (talk) 13:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am quite bemused as to why the SPI gave no positive results. Having fought against the seven seas for aprox. one year, I can unhesitatingly say that the edit pattern and modus operandi of No parking here are identical to the other socks. Exactly the same old editing type: addition of criticism sections and other ordure to BLPs, which I as a good Wikipedian cannot let happen. Also note that meco is permanently banned from the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia[40], so that could perhaps explain why he has always been defending the socks and the trolls in their crusade against the integrity of the English Wikipedia. Eisfbnore (下さいて話し) 14:00, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Right. Never mind I was the one who filed the first request for a sockpuppet investigation against same user. But hey, who cares about the details? __meco (talk) 14:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- CU was negative. Period. This revert on Eisbfnore's part was reverted for the right reasons (I haven't checked others), as far as I can tell. meco's position on the Norwegian wiki has no bearing on the matter here, at least not until you come with something more specific than a vague attempt at character assassination. Blanket reverts without proper arguments are not acceptable. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Right. Never mind I was the one who filed the first request for a sockpuppet investigation against same user. But hey, who cares about the details? __meco (talk) 14:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Page Protection Backlog
Hello, there is a backlog at WP:RPP, if a couple admins could help, it would be appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
This user seems to have violated BLP [41]. I warned him on his talk page, but he reverted me calling it "bullshit" [42]. He then re-inserted the information I believe to be a violation [43]. Be——Critical 20:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Could you be more vague? Didn't think so. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 20:25, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Also this edit summary [44] needs to be oversighted. Be——Critical 20:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I took care of the edit summary, but will let another admin look at the rest of the post's contents. Had AKA not reverted the worst of the personal attack, I would have blocked him. Dreadstar ☥ 20:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That kind of massive WP:BLP violation has no place here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely not; in fact, I've RD2'd the diffs in which the worst violation appeared. There's no reason and no excuse for comments like that anywhere on Wikipedia, and any repeat performance should result in blocking on sight. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:16, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That kind of massive WP:BLP violation has no place here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've blocked this user for 2 weeks. This is (at least) the second serious WP:BLP violation by this editor (the first resulted in a previous block). Combined with the unrelentingly combative attitude, I'm actually strongly considering blocking the account indefinitely until there's some actual indication of willingness to abide by this site's basic policies. MastCell Talk 23:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Rollback Rights Request
I'd like to get the rollback privlage so that I can fight spam and vandalism using igloo. Also how come this page does not have a edit notice entry section ? Thanks BO; talk 21:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Done since you're a dev. You could probably just assign it yourself with the
'staff'
global usergroup. Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)- Much Obliged - I probably ask the staff, I never crossed my mind since learning wikipida's community processes is also very important to me, it help identify and troubleshoot info/social point of failure in MediaWiki! BO; talk 21:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Developers are not necessarily staff members, and staff members do not necessarily have the global 'staff' group. In any case, using said group to assign a local permission such as rollback on self on enwiki is rather silly, unwise and would send the wrong message. Snowolf How can I help? 23:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
User:X Nilloc X continued disruptive editing
User:X Nilloc X is continuing the behavior he was blocked for recently right off his block. He is doing this both logged in and out (User:98.185.55.83, which is currently blocked). He continues to add a sum total of casualties from various different sources (WP:SYNTH) at List of Taliban fatality reports in Afghanistan, despite obvious consensus against it on the talk page, on Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–present), and at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Can someone please issue another block, as they will not get a clue. Note that the blocking admin stated very clearly that continuing would result in reblocking.--Atlan (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Another drive by comment, bollocks. X is currently blocked, so continuing the behavior is obviously bullshit. will coment more when I sober up, but this is balls. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, you'd better sober up first, because X is currently NOT blocked. They are currently edit warring the figure back in the article, hence I brought it here. His IP is blocked though, as he was edit warring with that earlier today. Please try again after your hangover.--Atlan (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- He is now blocked again. This should have happened about three hours ago, sorry for the slow action. If he continues edit warring after 1 week I recommend an indef block because he doesn't seem to understand WP:SYNTH. Shii (tock) 01:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- How is it in violation of WP:SYNTH? That would only be if I said that was absolutely how many had been killed. All I said on the page was that was the total reported on the page itself - I didn't cite anything for that, I just added up the total figures cited, if that makes sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.35.248 (talk) 05:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- He is now blocked again. This should have happened about three hours ago, sorry for the slow action. If he continues edit warring after 1 week I recommend an indef block because he doesn't seem to understand WP:SYNTH. Shii (tock) 01:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, you'd better sober up first, because X is currently NOT blocked. They are currently edit warring the figure back in the article, hence I brought it here. His IP is blocked though, as he was edit warring with that earlier today. Please try again after your hangover.--Atlan (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
User: Greg L
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User User:Greg L is, in my opinion, causing unnecessary disruption. He has begun overwriting all the discussion of his behaviour on his talk page diff (sorry I can't work out how to wikify that link) including the record of his recent ban and abusive language. I guess I can live with him reverted a whole lot of work I did in the weekend, apparently because he feels he is the champion of (User:GFHandel here and User:John_Vandenberg here (who didn't revert any of my changes) that have criticised me recently. I've set up a specific space for discussing criteria for inclusion on the List_of_computer-aided_design_editors at [[46]] which User:Greg L is just ignoring and launching against me. I'm on self enforced editing ban for a week so if anyone agrees with me I'd love to see my changes reinserted. I will try to engage him on the talk page but am not very hopeful. --duncan.lithgow (talk) 21:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's quite a screed Greg has on his Talk page. I believe User:Bwilkins knows more about this as he blocked Greg on May 14
(which block notice Greg impermissibly removed from his Talk page), and has had discussions with Greg on Bwilkins's Talk page. I didn't look at anything you've done - I stopped after looking at Greg's recent history.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)- You can remove block notices, but not declined unblock requests while the block is still in place unless something has changed. As for the rest, I'd recommend filing an WP:RfC when you get back from your self-enforced hiatus. I'd also recommend ignoring Wikipedia for the duration of that hiatus and not asking others to edit for you. AniMate 22:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're right; my memory of the policy/guideline was faulty. See WP:REMOVED.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- And, Bbb23, I think you can do better than point to my “screed” and point out how I was recently blocked (for telling DuLithgow precisely what I think of him). Now I am obeying all the little-finger-out niceties of using wiki-pleasantries and am quite intent on sticking to the rules of Wikipedia and pure facts. This is purely an issue of editing against consensus; nothing more and nothing less. Notwithstanding that Cobalt is a $3000+ CAD program used by Scaled Composites to design a spacecraft, Lithgow got a wild hair about how it wasn’t sufficiently notable to merit an article on Wikipedia. As others have pointed out to him, he is simply wrong and he got reverted over there. Now he is turning Wikipedia into a battlefield and has expanded the battle to the list of CAD programs and has now come here to wikilawyer to get his way notwithstanding that no one is agreeing with his arguments. If you want to write that “Greg L is poopy and no one should believe him because he writes non-politically correct ‘screeds’,” do it on your own talk page please; stick to the issue here. Greg L (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- But my Talk page is so boring, and you're so entertaining, even if you do use words like "poopy" (unlike some of your edit summaries where you more frankly call things "shit").--Bbb23 (talk) 23:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- And, Bbb23, I think you can do better than point to my “screed” and point out how I was recently blocked (for telling DuLithgow precisely what I think of him). Now I am obeying all the little-finger-out niceties of using wiki-pleasantries and am quite intent on sticking to the rules of Wikipedia and pure facts. This is purely an issue of editing against consensus; nothing more and nothing less. Notwithstanding that Cobalt is a $3000+ CAD program used by Scaled Composites to design a spacecraft, Lithgow got a wild hair about how it wasn’t sufficiently notable to merit an article on Wikipedia. As others have pointed out to him, he is simply wrong and he got reverted over there. Now he is turning Wikipedia into a battlefield and has expanded the battle to the list of CAD programs and has now come here to wikilawyer to get his way notwithstanding that no one is agreeing with his arguments. If you want to write that “Greg L is poopy and no one should believe him because he writes non-politically correct ‘screeds’,” do it on your own talk page please; stick to the issue here. Greg L (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're right; my memory of the policy/guideline was faulty. See WP:REMOVED.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You can remove block notices, but not declined unblock requests while the block is still in place unless something has changed. As for the rest, I'd recommend filing an WP:RfC when you get back from your self-enforced hiatus. I'd also recommend ignoring Wikipedia for the duration of that hiatus and not asking others to edit for you. AniMate 22:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nonsense. This editor is editwarring against consensus and is now wikilawyering. Another editor argued against his overly bold deletions of material here at Talk:List_of_computer-aided_design_editors#Complaints_over_unfair_removal. The editor who objected (User:GFHandel) is clearly correct and I agreed with him. The consensus is against what Lithgow is attempting to do there. Moreover, this activity on the list is all just part of his getting his way over deleting our Cobalt (CAD program) article, which I created. Lithgow has objected for months on the Cobalt article but the community doesn’t see things his way. Last week he started an AFD on that and got soundly shouted down by several other editors even without any of my help. Now he is active on the list deleting Cobalt from the list as well as other articles in an attempt to sweep up Cobalt with also-rans, and clearly doesn’t have a leg to stand on when he alleges that Cobalt is non-notable.
- GFHandel edits on a different time schedule. I suggest he be allowed to weigh in again over there. So far, this is 100% an issue of an editor (Lithgow) editing against consensus. If he wants to delete wholesale swaths of material that other editors toiled to create, he can make arguments on talk pages that gain traction with others; pure and simple. So far, his arguments are simply not supported by the facts. Greg L (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't believe that Greg_L is "causing unnecessary disruption". 150 readers a day visit List of computer-aided design editors, so it is important to discuss the contents and format of the list there before making wholesale changes. Now that the edits by DuLithgow have been reverted, local editors can get back to discussing the content (and yes, this is now a content issue, so apologies for taking up time here). GFHandel ♬ 23:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The section of this page Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User_talk_page_blanking seems to be relevant to the way User:Greg L is removing peoples comments from his talk page. --duncan.lithgow (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- As admins already know, he's allowed to do so...so why bring it up yet again? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:19, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh is extremely POV and denying that it has participated in violence
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am asking for assistance from administrators to investigate the article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) for POV. The article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a Hindu nationalist militant paramilitary movement, is denying that the movement's well-known violent political behaviour towards Muslims in India and mostly focuses on its philanthropic efforts towards Hindus, stating in the intro that all statements on its violence are "alleged" - meaning that they are contested. This is not supported by mainstream sources. Efforts in the talk page to address the controversial aspects of the RSS have failed, the discussion descended into angry rebuttals, assumption of bad faith in violation with Wikipedia policy, and character assassination against Wikipedia users. The Encyclopedia of War Crimes and Genocide on page 186 includes evidence compiled by the internationally-respected Human Rights Watch that says that during the 2002 Gujarat violence, "A plot to uproot the Muslim population of the state had been underway for some time: the RSS had circulated computerized lists of Muslim homes and businesses that were to be targeted by the mobs in advance." [47]. This has not been the first time that the RSS has incited violence against Muslims - it vouched for the demolition of Babri Masjid mosque in 1992 against fierce opposition by Muslims, resulting in the ancient mosque being torn down and eruption of violence between Hindus versus Muslims in which the RSS took part in anti-Muslim violence that resulted in the Indian government banning the RSS. The RSS has claimed that non-Hindus - including Muslims - are not considered by the RSS to be citizens of India and rejects any citizenship rights for non-Hindus, because it claims that the only "true" citizens of India are Hindus.--R-41 (talk) 23:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The RSS is a highly controversial movement in India, for instance there are multiple books by scholars on fascism such as Stanley Payne, Walter Laqueur and others who investigated the RSS' connection with fascism - such as the former RSS leader's praising of Hitler's "purification" of Germany into ethnic German-only citizenship that he claimed should be a model for India to become a Hindu-only citizenship, as well as investigations that have uncovered that the RSS was inspired by Italian Fascist youth organizations. It is well-known to have participated in planned violence against India's Muslims, this needs to be stated in the intro, and material outright denying this needs to be removed from the article.--R-41 (talk) 23:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- To balance Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects, we look to English-language sources as well as foreign-language reliable sources (and the RSS Web home page as it extols its virtues). If reliable sources such as the BBC here: “Analysis: RSS aims for a Hindu nation”, tend to devote XX percent of news articles to controversial and/or unflattering aspects, then that serves as guidance (along with similar most-reliable sources) as to how Wikipedia should filter the balance. Mere wikipedians do not presume to take it upon themselves to decide primary policy in determining this sort of balance; we look to RSs.
If the proponents who are objecting to the inclusion of the notable, non-flattering aspects don’t go with the flow, there are various remedies (tools) on Wikipedia for addressing this sort of thing; they best be advised to get with the program and compromise. This could easily go the way of Scientology if this proves an intractable problem. Wikipedia is not a soapbox to promote something so even someone’s mother-in-law is impressed with their membership in RSS. 00:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- This noticeboard is for resolving conduct issues not content issues, and this doesn't need administrator intervention. Consider going to WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard or filing a WP:Request for comment to get more eyes on the situation. AniMate 00:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Blanking on Sebo by Beingcorrect
There appears to be a blanking issue on that article by the mentioned user, however, as I'm not completely familiar with the article, I'm not willing to continue. He already removed content once without an explanation, so I reverted and left him a {{uw-delete1}} template. However, he again blanked it, but with an edit summary this time. - Zhou Yu (talk) 01:37, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't an ANI issue. After 4 warning it it normal to take this to WP:AIV. I stubified the article removing the content that was had a purely promotional tone --Guerillero | My Talk 03:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
User talk page blanking
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User 174.126.207.178 has been repeatedly removing my comments from his talk page. There is no reason to remove them, as they are entirely appropriate comments related to the user's action in certain articles. I have informed the user that it is against Wikipedia policy to remove other people's comments, but he has continued to do so. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- With a few minor exceptions not relevant here, editors are free to remove comments from their own talk pages. Monty845 03:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- No they aren't: "The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission.".[48] The exceptions outlined there include such things as vandalism etc., which is not the case here. Archiving is a different matter, also not the case here. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- From that same page, it explicitly states that "Simply deleting others' comments on your talk page is permitted". Reyk YO! 03:25, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Monty and Reyk are correct. WP:BLANKING goes into more detail. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is related to the archiving of old threads, which is not the case here. In the very beginning it says that the "'The basic rule ... is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission". If anyone could freely delete every question and bit of criticism people post on their talk pages, these talk pages would become meaningless. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it's pretty clear: Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents. There is no need to keep them on display and usually users should not be forced to do so. It is often best to simply let the matter rest if the issues stop. --NeilN talk to me 03:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- In that case I think the intro (quoted above) to the guidelines page should be changed, as it is misleading. I remember from another language Wikipedia users getting warnings for removing comments of others from their talk pages. Is the policy supposed to apply to all language versions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:37, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Policies on en-wikipedia apply to only en-wikipedia --Guerillero | My Talk 03:40, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- In that case I think the intro (quoted above) to the guidelines page should be changed, as it is misleading. I remember from another language Wikipedia users getting warnings for removing comments of others from their talk pages. Is the policy supposed to apply to all language versions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:37, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it's pretty clear: Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents. There is no need to keep them on display and usually users should not be forced to do so. It is often best to simply let the matter rest if the issues stop. --NeilN talk to me 03:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- No they aren't: "The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission.".[48] The exceptions outlined there include such things as vandalism etc., which is not the case here. Archiving is a different matter, also not the case here. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
on WP:TPO "Personal talk page cleanup" was the last entry on a list of 17 items, I have moved it up the list, second only to "If you have their permission." if someone who feels this is helpful would like to support the idea, (in case of knee jerk reaction) by keeping an eye on WP:TPO, that would be helpful. Penyulap ☏ 08:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
British Pakistanis
The discussion at Talk:British Pakistanis has become more than a little abusive even after I fully protected the article for 7 days. I would appreciate the eyes of my fellow admins in it. I have added a general warning to those involved who are making personal attacks as they seem unacceptable and extreme enough to me. Considering the approach recently taken with AndyTheGrump, who is also involved on this page in inflaming the discussion, I am aware that my views on what counts as abuse that breaches NPA might be more sensitive than that of other admins or the general community who may see this as 'banter'. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Nordichammer
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- User:Nordichammer - This sensitive issue is being inflamed by this vile user. Please see this. Ankh.Morpork 09:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Some kind of disruptive user that want to make WP:POINT that should be blocked could someone do a CU?--Shrike (talk) 09:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Template:CueNordichammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) should be blocked for these slurs and racist comments [49] [50] [51]. This is an SPA to disrupt and troll, nothing more. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I subsequently saw this comment and I request a CU, as there are reasonable grounds to suspect that somebody is deliberately aspersing my character.Ankh.Morpork 09:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've indefed Nordichammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for now. Sock or not, his edits are unacceptable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- In light of this and this which seek to portray me as a racist by guilt through association, I request a CU on this user.Ankh.Morpork 09:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've indefed Nordichammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for now. Sock or not, his edits are unacceptable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I subsequently saw this comment and I request a CU, as there are reasonable grounds to suspect that somebody is deliberately aspersing my character.Ankh.Morpork 09:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)