The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk | contribs) →Abusive emails from user:Taninao0126: Send them here |
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:*This is my first and only Wikipedia account. Your suspicions are incorrect in this case. I'm not another person that you may be thinking about, in this case. <small><font face="arial"><strong>[[User:Northamerica1000|Northamerica1000]]</strong><sup>[[User_talk:Northamerica1000|(talk)]]</sup></font></small> 01:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
:*This is my first and only Wikipedia account. Your suspicions are incorrect in this case. I'm not another person that you may be thinking about, in this case. <small><font face="arial"><strong>[[User:Northamerica1000|Northamerica1000]]</strong><sup>[[User_talk:Northamerica1000|(talk)]]</sup></font></small> 01:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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:*I don't think it's fair to publicly accuse people of sockpuppetry without providing any supporting evidence. If you have good reasons for thinking Northamerica1000 is a returned banned user, this is not the place. You know the way to [[WP:SPI]]. [[User:Reyk|<font color="Maroon">'''Reyk'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:Reyk|'''<font color="Blue">YO!</font>''']]</sub> 01:36, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
:*I don't think it's fair to publicly accuse people of sockpuppetry without providing any supporting evidence. If you have good reasons for thinking Northamerica1000 is a returned banned user, this is not the place. You know the way to [[WP:SPI]]. [[User:Reyk|<font color="Maroon">'''Reyk'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:Reyk|'''<font color="Blue">YO!</font>''']]</sub> 01:36, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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*I am confused as to what purpose {{tl|rescue}} actually even serves. Do the articles tagged with this template merit saving over ones that are not tagged? Surely, if an article can be proven to meet GNG, the ARS member will be better served finding the reliable sources and dumping them on AfD, rather than tagging the article with the template and getting meaningless "keep" votes? —[[User talk:DarkFalls|Dark]] 02:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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== [[User:Turtlewaxingmycar]] == |
== [[User:Turtlewaxingmycar]] == |
Revision as of 02:07, 13 January 2012
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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User Blospa
Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but Blospa (talk · contribs)'s contributions seem very odd. Could be normal vandalism, but I wonder if there is more to the user. Very confusing. (Had it been straight vandalism, AIV would have been the place, I think; but I wondered if this quacked.) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 1:37 pm, Today (UTC−8)
- I notice the user was blocked whilst reporting this (also, I don't have access to deleted contributions, but when I checked there were at least 6 nonsense pages of just Margaret Thatcher). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 1:38 pm, Today (UTC−8)
- Time to blacklist that image and set up an edit filter.Jasper Deng (talk) 1:41 pm, Today (UTC−8)
- I believe it's Tile join (talk · contribs). HurricaneFan25 21:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Time to blacklist that image and set up an edit filter.Jasper Deng (talk) 1:41 pm, Today (UTC−8)
User:Pieter Kuiper again
With this edit I am sorry to have to say that Dr. Kuiper already violated the interaction ban we agreed to recently. I have no other recourse that to propose a
Permanent ban on Interaction ban between me and Pieter Kuiper. SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Can you link to where the interaction ban is explicitly made? I cannot find it. --RA (talk) 21:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was a discussion here that suggests there may have been consensus for a ban on direct interaction, but the discussion was not closed before the thread was archived, and no conclusion was explicitly formulated. --Lambiam 21:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that a request as important (?) as an interaction ban could be shelved without a solution. I remember that another editor specifically tried to take steps so that wouldn't happen in this case. Sorry! I thought there was an interaction ban in place. (Isn't there actually, for all intents and purposes?) Should I request that now, or what should I request? SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've notified Pieter Kuiper. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 03:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, there's no interaction ban in place. Although last time some editors supported an interaction ban, that doesn't mean that there was enough consensus to actually go ahead with it. In fact, I would interpret the relative lack of comments as meaning that most regular editors here didn't think a ban was worth pursuing. Seeing as there was no consensus for an interaction ban last time, your suggestion of an outright ban now seems extreme to me, particularly given that the edit in question looks helpful. Is this the only recent interaction between you and Pieter that you are concerned about? — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 03:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am concerned, as you may remember (?) from when you tried to help me last time, about any and all interaction between me and a person who has stalked me for years and subjected me to such a huge amout of uncivil, snyde, rude and cruel treatment that the very mention of his name shatters my nerves. I am deathly afraid of Pieter Kuiper, but I guess nobody will ever be able to help me in getting him to stay away. It's even scarier to me that he pops in like this, after a few months, and begins the same old unjustifiable mud-slinging (trying to link to your latest notification about this ANI on his talk page, but don't know if that will succeed- depends on multiple headings there). Just goes to show how that his slurs and insults are unrelenting and never will cease. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I asked for neutral comment here, intending that the image contributors should not factor into such neutrality. Note Kuiper's reply, wearing his "concerned and objective" disguise there. Also note whose image he wants out. It's all personal and vindictive with him, always. SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- So even though, as you say, there have been months without crossing paths on Wikipedia, you still maintain that he is stalking and harassing you? I see only one taking it "personal and vindictive" here, and that is you, Serge. You interpret everything Pieter does in the most negative way possible. This is ridiculous. You make some pretty serious accusations with no diffs to back them up. Someone should do something about these constant frivolous reports of yours. --Atlan (talk) 21:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Dear Atlan: I don't need any more attacks on me prsonally right now, thank you! You are unaware of even a small part of what I have been subjected to for years and the amount of evidence I have submitted before. I thought there was an interaction ban in place when I submitted this. You missed that too. I agree with your last suggestion, except for your cruel adjective "frivolous" and your gross exaggeration "constant". What should be done is the interaction ban I have requested here, and which was supported by a majority of neutral editors then, after such a permament ban had been imposed on Kuiper and me on Commons at my request. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, I was well aware of your erroneous assumption that there was an interaction ban in place. I am also aware of the "evidence" you submitted before, because I read each and every ANI report by you. That's exactly the problem. Each time it was explained to you that no stalking was taking place. However, you suffer from a severe case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and you have simply ignored it every time. Yet you manage to read a consensus for an interaction ban when there clearly was none. That's selective reading for you.
- Furthermore, you come here and call another editor a stalker, vindictive, uncivil, snide, rude, cruel and a hurler of slurs and insults. Yet when I say you make serious accusations without properly backing them up and you make frivolous reports, you feel personally attacked. Really? You do not see the double standards you apply?
- Lastly, what I find especially damning is that the end result of Pieter Kuiper's "terrible and scary revert" is that he suggested a new image on the talk page, which you went ahead and added to the article, without so much as a "thank you" (while going out of your way to thank JoelWhy for not agreeing with you). No, instead you continue pushing for a ban and lamenting the "lack of help" you get here.--Atlan (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have never ever had any dealings with you before, that I know of, and you have never attacked me like this or even commented in any way on anything that I've been involved in, as far as I can remember. Why do you read my every entry?!? Who asked you to do that? Am I a special interest of yours without even knowing it? Why am I, if so? How did you find this? Your very strong defense of of a totally innocent Kuiper is almost overwhelming. He certainly has a good compatriot friend in you. I find you incredibly biased in this section and cruelly unfair to me. That's my opinion. So your comments are worth nothing to me or to this discussion, in my opinion. All you are trying to do is blast the living daylights out of me. Your approach is irrelevant. You and I have nothing to discuss. So don't waste any more of your time. Oh, since you found me horrible even in that detail, be sure to thank your friend Kuiper for me for that excellent photo of Duke Birger. It really is a big imporvement. Will you do me that favor, please, since you know I don't want any direct contact with him? Do it in lovely lovely Dutch, it's a great language, and enjoy your lovely friendhip with him. Friendship can be one of life's most beautiful things, and yours with Pieter Kuiper certainly is impressive. I mean that sincerely, and on that happy note, bye bye! SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Dear Atlan: I don't need any more attacks on me prsonally right now, thank you! You are unaware of even a small part of what I have been subjected to for years and the amount of evidence I have submitted before. I thought there was an interaction ban in place when I submitted this. You missed that too. I agree with your last suggestion, except for your cruel adjective "frivolous" and your gross exaggeration "constant". What should be done is the interaction ban I have requested here, and which was supported by a majority of neutral editors then, after such a permament ban had been imposed on Kuiper and me on Commons at my request. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- So even though, as you say, there have been months without crossing paths on Wikipedia, you still maintain that he is stalking and harassing you? I see only one taking it "personal and vindictive" here, and that is you, Serge. You interpret everything Pieter does in the most negative way possible. This is ridiculous. You make some pretty serious accusations with no diffs to back them up. Someone should do something about these constant frivolous reports of yours. --Atlan (talk) 21:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that a request as important (?) as an interaction ban could be shelved without a solution. I remember that another editor specifically tried to take steps so that wouldn't happen in this case. Sorry! I thought there was an interaction ban in place. (Isn't there actually, for all intents and purposes?) Should I request that now, or what should I request? SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was a discussion here that suggests there may have been consensus for a ban on direct interaction, but the discussion was not closed before the thread was archived, and no conclusion was explicitly formulated. --Lambiam 21:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Since it seems obvious not one administrator is interested in trying to help with this, and since it only has led to more heartache, I am getting real and withdrawing anything that needs attention. I do that very sadly. SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm exasperated and at a loss. This article is about a physics theory proposed by Antony Garrett Lisi (note that there are similar problems on that article, too). There are two distinct sides, both of which seem to not understand or care whatsoever about Wikipedia's policies, with only one or two editors (I consider myself to be one) in the middle. One side thinks that Lisi is, well, words that I can't use for fear of breaking WP:BLP. They think that the theory is complete bunk, hype, and a public relations travesty. The other side thinks that Lisi's theory is new, imperfect but promising, no different than any other new physics theory, and deserving of a warm limelight (and that the detractors are basically envious string theorists). The first side wants both articles deleted, or, at least, stubbed and left with no info about the science itself. Deletion is out of the question, of course, because there are dozens upon dozens of sources that discuss both Lisi and the theory (what happened is that the mainstream press got excited that this "surfer-dude" physicist, working outside of the academy, came up with a theory that set the physics world on edge). The other side wants the entire theory explained in great detail, both mathematically and scientifically, at a level that 99.9999% of Wikipedia readers could never understand. This is really also out of the question because there are quite a number of sources that say that, unfortunately, Lisi is simply wrong (the main paper was never even published in a peer reviewed journal).
I'm fed up with the two sides. Most recently, I've "threatened" to just start collapsing every discussion that calls for the article to be deleted, because that's so obviously not what Wikipedia policy says. I'm also sick to death of having to have the same fight over and over again with the ones who don't want anything removed. Furthermore, Lisi himself has been discussing this off site, and it is entirely likely that either Lisi or one of his supporters, as well as some of his direct opponents, are actively editing the article and/or talk page. Just recently, 2 editors have said that they're planning to take me to the Administrator's Notice Board for my threats (see Talk:An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything#Does Wikipedia need this article and, if so, what form should it take?). So I'm taking the initiative and doing it myself.
Of course, the question is inevitably, "What Administrative Action is requested here?" First, please review the conduct of all users there, and see if anyone needs to be blocked for BLP violations (of particular concerns there are posts by (User:71.106.167.55), such as [1]), or tendentious editing. See if anyone sees any meat or sockpuppetry. Please also review my own conduct, and trout or sanction me as appropriate--my frustration may well have gotten the better of me, especially in the last few days. Ideally, I'd like a neutral admin or two watching the talk page and stopping tendentious editing before it gets out of hand (as if the article were under discretionary sanctions). Qwyrxian (talk) 05:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- An article written in the tone that is written in which contains the phrase "was not submitted to a peer-reviewed scientific journal" and "largely but not entirely ignored by the mainstream physics community" should send red flags waving. Honestly I'd support deleting it, we don't need any more pseudoscience here. And that is what that appears to be to me. That article seems to have rushed through AfD last time with ILIKEIT type "look, it is in the news!" support. That doesn't demonstrate a lasting notability (notability isn't temporary). This theory seems to have no lasting support or impact. Send it back to AfD, perhaps. Prodego talk 05:43, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- An exceptionally easy decision. Mainstream science ignores it. So should we. Per policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Even if true, that's not how policy works. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm an interested editor who hasn't done much with the article because it was outside of my expertise, but since Lisi's public presentations have focused on the visualizations of his theory which is within my geometric expertise at least.Qwyrxian has been patient and fair, although it was his deletion of a large portion of the mathematical aspects of the article that pulled me in [2]. I appreciated the detailed descriptions of the theory even if there was much I don't understand, and I'm one of the 99.999% too, in terms of judging its failings. There's advanced mathematics in the theory only really taught to math (or physics) grad students, although Wikipedia has a great deal to say about this advanced math, like Lie algebras of E8 and the subgroups. I find Lisi's paper and article represent an excellent inspiration for aspiring math students for a reason to try to learn more about this abstract math. Similarly for me the theory was the first attempt I ever saw that offered me a "map", that the hundreds of subatomic particles had a structure I could understand, and again, there's wide wikipedia articles on subatomic physics articles. So my interest in "explaining" the theory is to connect Lisi's use of weight diagrams to show known and speculated relations between the particle and charges of all these particles. These diagrams seem to do a great deal to help explain the relations between the particles to nonexperts, and are used in many papers, while wikipedia editors who added the physics articles haven't included them. As to whether Lisi's theory is wrong is an open question since Lisi still works on it, and his public presentations shows a progression from the standard model to various extensions which are speculative, ending with his E8 proposal. So it seems fair to me, that wikipedia, with its vast math and physics articles gain by Lisi's paper as an article, showing the progression of theories, and I think if there's people on wikipedia who are able to understand and summarize the model and reference their sources properly, it seems inspiring to those who are interested, and actually harmless to those who fear science is being destroyed by a speculative idea they don't like. So I'll keep learning, and if I can help, I will. It would be nice if the harshes critics could think of some constructive on the talk pages. Qwyrxian suggested rants be deleted, and I see his reasoning, but accept suppression can just makes ranters more self-righteous. Tom Ruen (talk) 06:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- "As to whether Lisi's theory is wrong is an open question". Possibly. Wikipedia isn't the place to close it. Take it elsewhere - our science articles are based on mainstream consensus. If you want to promote a new and radical theory, find a new place to do it. That isn't what Wikipedia is here for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- His work will exist whether or not we have a Wikipedia article on it. Indeed, we can even export this article somewhere else. But that mainstream theoretical physicists immediately reject it is all I need to know. Wikipedia's science articles need to be about science. Speculative theories that are completely disregarded by the mainstream don't belong, under the same sort of theory that leads us to the WP:OR policy. Prodego talk 06:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- My understanding of our policy (I'm speaking against Prodego and AndytheGrump here) is that even fringe topics should be covered by Wikipedia, so long as there are reliable sources to cover it. And there is no doubt whatsoever that this paper and Lisi have been covered by both mainstream news sources (quite a bit) and scientific articles (a little bit). This is why we have articles on Water-fuelled cars, Hollow Earth, and Tired light. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of science only, it's a general encyclopedia, so even if Lisi's theory is pure bunkum (or just plain wrong), the cultural and historical aspects of it need to be adequately covered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- My argument is that there is no historical or cultural significance. I can walk up to anyone on the street and I would venture not 1 in 100, maybe not even 1 in 1000 would have heard of this. It is also not significant in the scientific community, as evidenced by the mainstream scientific community ignoring it. So then who needs to be educated about this topic? Prodego talk 07:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- That same man in the street will also not have heard of several dozen quite well-established and important scientific theories and likely doesn't know what continent Myanmar is on, so the "man in the street test" isn't terribly relevant. What is relevant are our standards on notability, and this clearly passes, given the coverage in mainstream reliable sources. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm wondering if your average "man on the street" has heard of Immanuel Velikovsky but if you go to any university physics/astronomy department, most there have heard of him. "Woo" can be notable. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- That same man in the street will also not have heard of several dozen quite well-established and important scientific theories and likely doesn't know what continent Myanmar is on, so the "man in the street test" isn't terribly relevant. What is relevant are our standards on notability, and this clearly passes, given the coverage in mainstream reliable sources. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- My argument is that there is no historical or cultural significance. I can walk up to anyone on the street and I would venture not 1 in 100, maybe not even 1 in 1000 would have heard of this. It is also not significant in the scientific community, as evidenced by the mainstream scientific community ignoring it. So then who needs to be educated about this topic? Prodego talk 07:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of science only, it's a general encyclopedia, so even if Lisi's theory is pure bunkum (or just plain wrong), the cultural and historical aspects of it need to be adequately covered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- My understanding of our policy (I'm speaking against Prodego and AndytheGrump here) is that even fringe topics should be covered by Wikipedia, so long as there are reliable sources to cover it. And there is no doubt whatsoever that this paper and Lisi have been covered by both mainstream news sources (quite a bit) and scientific articles (a little bit). This is why we have articles on Water-fuelled cars, Hollow Earth, and Tired light. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- His work will exist whether or not we have a Wikipedia article on it. Indeed, we can even export this article somewhere else. But that mainstream theoretical physicists immediately reject it is all I need to know. Wikipedia's science articles need to be about science. Speculative theories that are completely disregarded by the mainstream don't belong, under the same sort of theory that leads us to the WP:OR policy. Prodego talk 06:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Those have significance in the scientific community though. Prodego talk 07:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to think of myself as one of the neutral ones. I know the theory very well, in almost all its intimate details, which is one of the reasons I was able to respond point by point to one of the editors pro-Lisi that is very stubborn when it comes to remove any part of the page and to add any criticism. At the same time I support the existence of the page and some degree of explanation of it and don't agree with all the recurring users and requests to delete the page or to erase each detail about Lisi's theory. Lisi isn't a person with his own theory of the world. His theory has flaws but it was coherent with the general approaches of particle physics and at least he holds a PhD in physics (just to say that it's better than the hollow earth theory). "As to whether Lisi's theory is wrong is an open question", this, unfortunately is a false statement. Lisi's theory is currently considered wrong because there are mathematical problems with it (as in how fermions actually are fermions in his theory). Of course, in the future Lisi might solve this, but he could be solving this just changing (at some degree) the theory. But the current version certainly is wrong. There is a published theorem that states it pretty clearly. In the year long discussion (at this point), I have written from some different IP's (they called me 24 or 98), although stating it was the same me, and just recently created this user because lately it was becoming difficult with the presence of many other IPs (so I first started using a name as signature, then I decided to actually create one because editor above Tom Ruen asked me for my talk page as a place where we could talk of some physics details in the attempt of including weight diagrams to explain other article physics articles and models, the official ones). I had to avoid editing other wikipages from the same IP given that this page brings people to harass you. Even Lisi in his offsite comments tried (ironically) to out me (who cares who I am anyways, haha) when he was the first one to be accused to be secretly editing himself the page. But Qwyrxian even if sometimes was at the point of being upset, I think is managing the situation quite well. It is rather hard to keep a neutral attitude when you deal with a page that is highly polarizing and at the same time you can't be weighing the two sides equally because the mainstream physics weighs more than the almost fringe theory side. ~GT~ (talk) 08:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Context note: This came up a week or so ago at WT:PHYS#An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything. The discussion there may provide useful background as to how this fits in with the scientific community as a whole. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 10:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Beyond my Ken. However, this isn't the place to have a debate about inclusion, but to discuss how to help Qwyrxian.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 10:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- If Qwyrxian believes that users are acting disruptively and attempts to engage have failed, then it's time to work through the steps at WP:DR to build a case for that. If, on the other hand, everyone is acting in good faith but has widely divergent opinions on the issues being debated, it's time to go through the content-related steps at WP:DR. Both of these have already been pursued to some extent (pinging WT:PHYS for additional opinions on both aspects, and now pinging here for additional opinions/advice (mostly about behaviour)). If I understand correctly, the next steps are probably mediation (to defuse conduct issues) and either polls regarding specific changes or article content RFCs on broader issues (for content). It then gets kicked back up here if tendentious editing continues even with mediation and sufficient discussion to establish what content is and is not encyclopedic/appropriate. That said, it's been a while since I've been involved in anything like this (thankfully), so I may not be up to date on what the next steps are.
- With regards to content-related discussion in this thread, a discussion of whether or not the article meets Wikipedia's inclusion criteria, or whether or not the article's description of its scientific merit matches reality, is relevant to some extent: who is being tendentious or editing non-neutrally depends on what the facts actually are. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Come on guys - this is what we have policies for.
- If it is notable, then it has passed the basic test for 'should it have an article.' It's been to AfD and been kept - the parties that think the keep decision was wrong have a further avenue at WP:DRV. We have plenty of articles that people don't like - that's not a good reason to delete them.
- If it is notable, purports to be science, but is rejected by the mainstream scientific community, then it can be dealt with under the guidelines for pseudoscience - which do not say that Wikipedia doesn't carry articles on pseudoscience topics.
- you can add all the content you like about what the theory says, but you do in fairness have to point out prominently (and with references) that mainstream science disagrees. And you have to bear in mind that it is not Wikipedia's role to debunk it, that is the role of secondary sources which can then be cited in the article.
- now does anyone need blocking for edit warring, disruption, personal attacks etc .....? Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- On disruption, Special:Contributions/71.106.167.55 has been the singular ranter, like [3]. Tom Ruen (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm honestly surprised (and disappointed) that we have experienced editors saying the article should be deleted. It's clearly meets notability guideline. Whether the theory is true or fringe is irrelevent and has absolutely nothing to do with notability. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I concur with AQFK and with Elen's sensible scheme of action. Issue blocks to anyone being disruptive and edit the article according to our policies for fringe science (or failed theories). Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm honestly surprised (and disappointed) that we have experienced editors saying the article should be deleted. It's clearly meets notability guideline. Whether the theory is true or fringe is irrelevent and has absolutely nothing to do with notability. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I came to the talk page discussion late in the day [4] with a rather thorough analysis of the impact of Lisi's paper on the mainstream science community based on the science citation databases. I found that the impact of the paper had been very minor and suggested that the interesting features of the story were the sociological rather than scientific ones and the article should reflect this. I was immediately accused by Qwyrxian, falsely and on no basis whatsoever, of off-Wiki collaboration. He threatened to collapse the contributions of editors he disagreed with. Looking back over the debate I find his conduct to have been reprehensible. He acts as if he owns the debate. He has insulted, bullied and threatened to censor editors with whom he disagrees and then, when he still did not get his way, threw a tantrum by bringing the matter here. This behaviour is unacceptable. Qwyrxian self-confessedly has little technical knowledge of the subject, as is clear from the first paragraph of this thread and, more importantly, appears to have little grasp of the social dynamics of the scientific community or Wikipedia' policies on notability. This is a content dispute and should not have been brought to WP:AN/I. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC).
- I brought the issue to ANI because 2 other editors told me they were going to bring my behavior here, so rather than wait in "fear" of that, I did it myself. I should not have accused you of off-wiki collaboration, and my apologies for that. The problem, as I said before, is that we know for a fact that there has been off-wiki promotion/denigration of these articles before, and we keep getting people who as Elen points out above, seem to forget that our notability policies don't in any way care that the theory has been rejected. My "threats to censor" were an attempt to do something to break the perpetual problem that occurs on that talk page of suggestions for deletion or stubbing that are not compliant with our policies. This approach is sometimes used on other talk pages where discussion is tendentious. If it was overbearing (the relevant diffs for my comments are [5] and [6]. However, I as far as I know, I haven't insulted, bullied, or threatened any editors--if I have, please provide diffs. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, I actually have a better grasp of our notability policies than you (and several other editors) do. Finally, while there is a content dispute, there's also a behavioral problem. If there is anyone with a load of time on their hands, I implore you--read through the last month or so of talk page contributions, and consider whether some of the editing is disruptive. Including mine--if I'm a problem there, I'll take whatever trouts, blocks, or topic bans are appropriate. I tried to walk away from this article once before (when it was mainly Scientryst and 76 that were going back and forth), but the terrible behavior there keeps drawing me back in, in some sort of vain attempt to remind people that we do actually have policies that apply here. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- There may be a case for bringing the article to AfD for a second time as much has changed since the last AfD in 2007. The scientific community has now brought down its verdict on the paper, finding it to be of little importance through voting with its feet and not citing it in their literature. An AfD debate would provide a picture of current opinion easier to read than the to and fro rhetoric of the talk page. It would also bring the matter to the attention of the experienced participants on pages such as Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Science. There is the problem of Lisi encouraging his fanboys to edit Wikipedia [7] so arguments will have to be scrutinised with care. As I said on the article talk page, I think that there is some sociological interest in the matter of how public relations promotion generated so much interest outside the scientific community in a relatively insignificant paper, so I might be persuaded to vote for a Merge or Redirect.
- On a tangent: I am concerned by the premature closure of many AfD debates. For example the 2007 AfD of this article was closed after only six hours, giving some people no chance to respond. I think that debates should be open for at least 24 hours to cover the sleep/work cycles in different parts of the world. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC).
- Xxanthippe if you bring it to AfD, it will be Snow closed in a day or less because the article obviously meets WP:GNG. Again, I'm trying to say this as nicely and clearly as possible: Wikipedia does not consider the fact the fact that the theory is discredited to have any bearing whatsoever on whether the topic should have an article on it. Again, Water-fuelled cars is a perfect example--it's a completely obvious and ridiculous con, and will never be a valid scientific/engineering theory, but that does not mean that we should even consider it for deletion. You're attempting to apply your own standard of what belongs in Wikipedia, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with our policies. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that there would be a snow keep as some contributors to this thread have gone further than me and called for a delete. Of course, there are always the Lisi acolytes to play their part. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC).
- Whether "snow" or not, it would undoubtedly be a "keep" as it's clearly notable. Arguing otherwise is really a waste of energy which could be put into balancing the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that there would be a snow keep as some contributors to this thread have gone further than me and called for a delete. Of course, there are always the Lisi acolytes to play their part. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC).
- Xxanthippe if you bring it to AfD, it will be Snow closed in a day or less because the article obviously meets WP:GNG. Again, I'm trying to say this as nicely and clearly as possible: Wikipedia does not consider the fact the fact that the theory is discredited to have any bearing whatsoever on whether the topic should have an article on it. Again, Water-fuelled cars is a perfect example--it's a completely obvious and ridiculous con, and will never be a valid scientific/engineering theory, but that does not mean that we should even consider it for deletion. You're attempting to apply your own standard of what belongs in Wikipedia, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with our policies. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Xxanthippe: You're not listening. This theory's reception by the scientific community has absolutely nothing to do with notability on Wikipedia. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Intelligent design, for example, is not accepted as legitimate by the scientific community, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia doesn't have an article about it. In fact, not only do we have an article on ID, it's passed both good article and featured article statuses. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It seems that some people have not grasped the point that I made in the title "Does Wikipedia need this article and, if so, what form should it take?" (my italics) of the thread that I started on the article's talk page. The situation is that the consensus of the scientific community has found the paper to be a worthy try but a well-meaning failure and of no further interest within the scientific community. There are thousand of papers that come into this category and Wikipedia does not have articles about them. What is different here is that the paper has garnered interest outside the scientific community because of the public relation activities of its proponents (surfer-dude etc.). The only reason for interest in the matter is the promotional activities associated with Lisi and his supporters. These deserve to be developed further and the article on the paper subsumed into the BLP on Lisi. By implying that the paper still retains scientific credibility the article on it misleads Wikipedia's readers. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC).
- Xxanthippe, I hear you saying you want: (1) To make sure no unsuspecting readers of wikipedia will accidently come to the conclusion that Lisi's E8 theory has any credibility with the wider scientific community, and if there are sufficient documentation, you ought to be satisified? (2) To have minimimal details of the theory to be explained on wikipedia because "real scientist" think its bunk, not even wrong, etc. Well, I think (1) is satified by the existing content, and (2) is just your opinion, perhaps among many, but you justify it by claiming a hundreds of other neglected wrong theories that are unfairly ignored on Wikipedia. Well, maybe so, AND maybe notability is a game of hyped propaganda that honest scientists avoid in their humble incremental theories sitting in unread papers waiting to be discovered like sleeping beauty, if only the prince would stop looking at those hyped fake princesses on the movie posters. I wonder! Thinking of one of my favorite mathematicians, Kepler, he started his career at 25 with a beautiful bunch of bunk, Mysterium Cosmographicum, a crazy idea to explain why the planets have the spacing they do, from the circum/inscribed spheres of the five platonic solids and for a moment it fit all the facts as known then, with a bit of fudging, but no apparent reality to his theory, which could only fit a six planet solar system. But it was a wild intuitive jump forward, and when improved data from Tycho denied his theory, he moved on, and we have a beautful wrong model of the solar system. So I imagine Lisi's model is something similar. He took a leap of faith, and filled in the details as if it might be true, and it stands as a "real model" that may or may not represent reality, but is a model none the less, and he used hype and the public imagination to promote his idea, hoping others would be inspired, and surely still hopes. So I'm sure "honest" scientists who refuse to participate in hype, will sadly never get their papers in wikipedia, BUT perhaps there really are hundreds of wrong models out there that DESERVE a little hype, and could be notable on wikipedia for what they represent, and Wikipedia would be better for that. Who knows? I don't think science is harmed by showing its mistakes and open questions where attempts failed. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think you diminish Lisi's paper too much. It is better than not even wrong, it has actually been proved to be wrong. Although a failure, it is an honorable failure. It at least provides the benefit that nobody is likely to make the same mistakes again. This is the standard operating procedure of routine normal science and nothing remarkable. I hope that Lisi will carry on his work and go on to do great things. But Wikipedia will write about those great things after they are achieved, not before. We do seem to agree that any Wikipedia material about this particular incident should be based on the hype, not the substance, because there isn't much of the latter. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC).
- I tried to state your case to find common ground but I certainly don't think I agree the wikipedia article should only express the fact that it was a hyped theory, rather than basic details of the model itself which you say has been proven wrong. But there's a flaw in your argument that Wikipedia can't deal with except to state the facts - the counter-proof might not be true or complete, while Lisi yet offers a follow up paper with reasoning why the proof might not apply as claimed. So that's why supportive editors like User:Scientryst get a little testy about the wording of "wrong" versus "incomplete" versus a seemingly implied "intractable deadend", unworthy to look at. So I think there's a middle ground here, for a neutral voice that can keep the tension of the yet unknown. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I remind contributors that secondary sources are needed to establish notability. Primary sources cannot do this. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC).
- I tried to state your case to find common ground but I certainly don't think I agree the wikipedia article should only express the fact that it was a hyped theory, rather than basic details of the model itself which you say has been proven wrong. But there's a flaw in your argument that Wikipedia can't deal with except to state the facts - the counter-proof might not be true or complete, while Lisi yet offers a follow up paper with reasoning why the proof might not apply as claimed. So that's why supportive editors like User:Scientryst get a little testy about the wording of "wrong" versus "incomplete" versus a seemingly implied "intractable deadend", unworthy to look at. So I think there's a middle ground here, for a neutral voice that can keep the tension of the yet unknown. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: I've grouped the
twothree posts above as they are related post and counter-post. --RA (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
User:RealCowboys is displaying uncivil behaviour again
User:RealCowboys and User:Suitcivil133 are fans of rival football clubs.
RealCoboys made a mild personal attack, commenting on the editor, against Suitcivil133 in an edit summary on one of the articles that is in contention. RealCoboys then tagged Suitcivil133's talk page with a WP:NPA template after I had already tagged it for the same behaviour.
RealCoboys was blocked on 29 December 2011 for personal attacks and has only been back for five days. The editor's comments, discussion and and general behaviour often digress to trash-talking and name-calling, when edit summaries are left or talk is used to discuss. The editor doesn't seem to understand WP:CIVIL and may need an admin to explain it more clearly. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oh come off it, that's not a personal attack. He was unwise to characterise the material he was reverting as "vandalism", but apart from that he was right to re-write the title of that section as the previous one was definitely unencyclopaedic. If all you're complaining about here is an edit summary containing the word "bandwagoner" I don't think there's anything actionable. Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 10:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- "Bandwagoner" was not needed but not uncivil. Civility problems - and I don't see any here to be honest - can be taken to WP:WQA. GiantSnowman 10:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No administrative attention is needed in regards to the civility issues, as of yet. I urge the editors to remain civil in all their interactions, and stop templating each other. In regards to the content dispute, I tend to agree with Cowboys in that labelling Barcelona's reign as "Football Domination" is sensationalist, violating both WP:NPOV and the sub-title naming conventions of WP:MOS. More so, the lack of independent 3rd party sources in reference to this is a violation of our policy on original research and verifiability. But I digress - ANI is the wrong venue to discuss this. I urge the parties to cease edit warring or sanctions will be impossed on the parties involved. —Dark 11:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- "Bandwagoner" was not needed but not uncivil. Civility problems - and I don't see any here to be honest - can be taken to WP:WQA. GiantSnowman 10:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
User:Walter Görlitz
User:Walter Görlitz has repeatedly made false statements and or accusations that I have been uncivil in "tash talking" or "personal attacks". I understand that his job is to be a good editor but he feels the need that if I use as so much mention another editor im simply "attacking" them. Ive already been banned once and I realized personal attacks on wikipedia is not right but he should have no business to look thru my past history to further hurt my status. RealCowboys (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're asking for here? Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 10:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- RealCowboys, I'm not sure what you're looking for either. You have indeed been blocked twice (no, as far as I can see you have never been banned). Your history is right there, and always will be. In order to distance yourself from those actions, you need to act within policy. The best way to not be accused of future personal attacks is to not make comments that could be seen as personal attacks. One important civility issue is to ensure that you never call an edit vandalism unless it is, indeed, vandalism - some people get overly sensitive at being called a vandal. If you're having trouble having polite conversation to resolve an issue, then WP:WQA is thataway... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is funny. And then the editor tagged my page with WP:NPA, but the action is not clear. I can see that this is going to take a great deal of patience. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Walter has a history of choosing which side he feels is "attacking" without trying to resolve anything. Judging by the way he worded "This is funny." it seems he is taking this as a joke, I'm warning him to be civil. RealCowboys (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- That may not be funny, but this edit summary is, especially considering the first part of what you removed (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No kid, I can remove any comments on MY talk page, quit trolling on my personal business. RealCowboys (talk) 05:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes Mr. Twist, I know you can remove comments from your talkpage. The post from me was a very clear attempt to be helpful so that you can avoid future problems like your first two blocks. You are, indeed, quite welcome to remove that ... however, the silliness begins when you remove it at the same time as you remove an altercation with a completely different editor about an unrelated editor, especially when you refer to "rights" (which you have none on a private website). Add the incivility above (for example, referring to someone as "kid" in order to try to gain the dominant position) shows that you're really not listening to those trying to actually help you. That'll never go well (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Real, maintain your civility here please. —Dark 10:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- First off BWiliker,im sorry I couldnt tell if you wernt a kid, due to your juvinile responce the first time. I have a right to "defend" myself when its dicks like you trying to be somewhat "more" then me. IDC block me forever, I have ways of unbanning my ip adress anyways. And just for the record dont be a sarcastic asshole to me in the first place if you want to "help" me. That goes for anyone thinking they could talk to me how they want. RealCowboys (talk) 22:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No kid, I can remove any comments on MY talk page, quit trolling on my personal business. RealCowboys (talk) 05:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I have blocked RealCowboys for a week for the above comment. 28bytes (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
User:Suitcivil133
User:Suitcivil133 has repeatedly be accusing me of being "biased", "personally I don't care what the headline will be but this RealCowboys (who have an history of being blocked and not behaving) should not delete information and lable it as false when the subject has been discussed and proven correct, or delete information on a rival football clubs Wikipedia page without any discussion before deleting it as he is biased." He feels that any change I make to his favorite clubs page is automatically vandalism. I recently changed a header title on FC Barcelona that said "Football Domination" because I felt that is a POV remark and to him that is "vadalism" and im "deleting information lable it as false when the subject has been discussed and proven correct". When has this ever been proven correct? I ask for him to stop refering to me as being biased and should be blocked for a short period of time, just as I was. RealCowboys (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Without looking at anything else, "Football Domination" is not an appropriate section title, IMO. Drmies (talk) 22:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
substantial copyright infringement
At Erich von Däniken the following massive copyvio was re-inserted by [8]. As exact quotes were used from Skeptic magazine, the claim that the section 'avoided direct quotes" fails. See also [9] where some is repeated - again sans attribution on WP for the exact copying.
- "trouble, at the age of 19, when he was convicted of stealing money from an innkeeper and from a camp where he worked as a youth leader"
(just one small example) appeared in the Nov 9, 2004 issue of Skeptic.
- By the age of 19 he got into trouble with the law when he was "convicted of stealing money from an innkeeper and from a camp where he worked as a youth leader"
is the version repeatedly inserted into the BLP. More evidence of copyvio really needed? The violating editor's response is [10] which means to me that he does not understand exactly how seriously Wikipedia takes plagiarism and copyright violations. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Bit of work - but Playboy interview is at [11]. The amount of direct copying is enormous. Collect (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not to downplay your legitimate copyright concerns, but please educate yourself with regards to verifiability. You have stated that "the Channel 4 ref is not online and can not be confirmed as backing the claims made," that "The "early life" section appears to have a great deal of negative information sourced to a single Playboy interview - which seems unavailable. This should be completely removed until solid evidence that all of it is properly soured to Playboy." Things are not verifiable when you verify them, but rather when a reliable source is provided. If you have evidence of an individual falsifying sources, then you could make a stronger argument, but that a source is not online, or that you don't have access to a source does not make it unsourced. Please be more careful. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
As I noted I found a copy of rhe Playboy interview - as an image file (pdf) and not through my usual searches. The text in the article is lifted wholesale from that article as far as I can determine. Plagiarism != "unsourced." "Direct copying" = "plagiarism" however. I do not accuse anyone of "falsifying" Playboy here - I make the observatuion that they lifted wholesale from it in violation of copyright law. Do you note the difference? Collect (talk) 21:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's now. In the past, you said that the interview was unavailable, and thus the information sourced to it should be removed. You said that because the Channel 4 ref was not online, it can not be confirmed. This is problematic, and needs to stop. Hipocrite (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Copyvio or not, Hipo is correct - sources do not have to be available online. (And the day Wikipeida decides to disallow offline sources is the day I quit editing...) - The Bushranger One ping only 22:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- @Collect, just summarize the information from the interview. Replace any direct quotes with briefs summaries of the naked facts, put the direct quotes inside {{cquote|blah blah blah|author}}, or surround the quotes with "Playboy said" or "Von Daniken said". --Enric Naval (talk) 22:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Please don't use "cquote", those curly quote marks are just too damn cute; besides, the template is not meant for use in an article's body, it's meant for pullquotes (as it says in the template doc). Use "bquote", please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- @Collect, just summarize the information from the interview. Replace any direct quotes with briefs summaries of the naked facts, put the direct quotes inside {{cquote|blah blah blah|author}}, or surround the quotes with "Playboy said" or "Von Daniken said". --Enric Naval (talk) 22:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
The issue raised here is not one of availability - I found a PDF (which was a copyvio AFAICT on the site where it was) and noted that a huge amoount of the article is lifted directly from Playboy - as plagiarism on the first water. My initial problem had indeed been verifying the claims made - when I found the claims made used the exact same language as the copyright article, then I posted here. Is this clear, I trust? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- We're talking about the first part - your belief that things are not verifiable until you have verified them. This needs to change. The second part, the copyvio? It's not ripe for administrative attention. Hipocrite (talk) 13:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- When a long series of claims is made about a living person, and the claims are contentious (that is, alleging felonies etc.), prudence and WP:BLP requires we be cautious. I fear that blind acceptance of contentious claims has been a major problem on BLPs for a long time, and suggesting "just keep the claims even if they seem very contentious" or the like is not found in WP:BLP. I fear you do not seem to grasp the reason why WP:BLP is written as it is. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- BLP requires that all claims be reliably sourced. It does not require that you, Collect, read the source, or that the source be online, or easy to access. Go to the library. That you don't understand this, still, is very problematic. That your reflexive response to me educating you about what Verifiable means is to cry BLP is even more problematic. Perhaps you need to be directed to work in different areas for a time, so you can understand our sourcing policies. Hipocrite (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Potential BLP violations combined with copyright violations are both factors that run the risk of damaging wikipedia. Those factors are more important than any alleged "reliability" of sources. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- BLP requires that all claims be reliably sourced. It does not require that you, Collect, read the source, or that the source be online, or easy to access. Go to the library. That you don't understand this, still, is very problematic. That your reflexive response to me educating you about what Verifiable means is to cry BLP is even more problematic. Perhaps you need to be directed to work in different areas for a time, so you can understand our sourcing policies. Hipocrite (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you find unambiguous copyvio, you can either remove it and leave a note on the talk page, or tag and list it as described at WP:CP. There is no obligation to rewrite in in properly paraphrased form, though it's always nice if you do it that way too. Hipocrite is right about there being no requirement for you personally to be able to verify a source, as long as someone would be able to (or you could ask at our own library. As an exception though, if the same editor added three large blocks of text and you've found two are flat-out copyvio, it becomes reasonable to assume the third is as well. List it at CP if you're not sure. No action is required at this board. Franamax (talk) 00:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- When a long series of claims is made about a living person, and the claims are contentious (that is, alleging felonies etc.), prudence and WP:BLP requires we be cautious. I fear that blind acceptance of contentious claims has been a major problem on BLPs for a long time, and suggesting "just keep the claims even if they seem very contentious" or the like is not found in WP:BLP. I fear you do not seem to grasp the reason why WP:BLP is written as it is. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Carli Lloyd
Some unknown user keeps putting their personal opinions of the player under her biographical information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anc07 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is it these contributions regarding the penalty kick that you are referring to? (And possibly thse contributions)? --RA (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Looks like 68.45.234.82 is edit warring here (only looked at edits since Jan 1):
- Then similarly before hopping to 71.169.87.36 here:
- --RA (talk) 23:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
The article was semi-protected yesterday and has been quiet since.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
IP harrasment and trolling
An anon editor (whom is/was known as the Gundagai anon/editor) using the IP range of 144.13x.xxx.xx has been harrasing (WP:OUTING) and trolling on the Gundagai talk page. The anon has had an arbitration case and was banned from using Wikipedia for 12 months however this was breached since the anon returned within the ban time frame and the fact the ArbCom case also stated the anon was required to edit under one account. Something needs to be done as this has gotten back out of control like it did back in 2006. Bidgee (talk) 01:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note that each count of ban evasion resets the ban, Bidgee. If he's been continuously editing since then or otherwise violating sanctions, he can be blocked under the relevant ArbCom decisions. —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 02:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Semi-protecting the talk page for a few days would stifle it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Semiprotected for a week. Nyttend (talk) 02:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Any chance at some sort of rangeblock? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not from me; I've never figured out how they work. Idea sounds good, however. Nyttend (talk) 04:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It would be a large range (a /15?) belonging to a large ISP in a major English-speaking country, so the collateral damage would probably be considerable. Given the very localized form of the disruption, it would probably be more efficient to just permanently semiprotect both the article and talkpage. Another alternative would be an edit filter. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hmmm, would it be possible to set the edit filter to just flag edits from a particular range? Mjroots (talk) 19:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- All edits are from eight /24 ranges, and it looks like all recent contributions from those ranges (since early 2011) have been to the same group of articles and related content in other pages, so blocking should be possible if the disruption continues. Peter E. James (talk) 03:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- It would be a large range (a /15?) belonging to a large ISP in a major English-speaking country, so the collateral damage would probably be considerable. Given the very localized form of the disruption, it would probably be more efficient to just permanently semiprotect both the article and talkpage. Another alternative would be an edit filter. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not from me; I've never figured out how they work. Idea sounds good, however. Nyttend (talk) 04:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Any chance at some sort of rangeblock? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Semiprotected for a week. Nyttend (talk) 02:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Semi-protecting the talk page for a few days would stifle it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Anon has returned under 144.138.240.227 (talk · contribs) and has also breached WP:OUTING again. Bidgee (talk) 01:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Harrassment
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
I would like someone to help me with harrassment I am receiving from other editors. User:One Night In Hackney appears to be using every conceiveable incivility and breach of Wikipedia rules to stop me editing. The most serious is a continual allegation that I am a sockpuppet of another user, to the point where he is now referring to me in posts as The Thunderer. He is currently engaged in doing all he can to destroy my credibility as an editor at [[12]] and at [[13]] and on my talk page [[14]]. He appears to be working in support of, if not along with User:Mo ainm who is a known sockpuppet of <redacted> a much blocked editor who claims to be on a "fresh start" but has returned to the scene of his past misdemenanours to get involved in more rows, in my case culminating in a complaint against me when I made a mistake editing on a page which has a 1RR retsriction. The complaint is here [[15]]. It doesn't matter what answers, complaints, or reasoning I give, the harrassment and incivility is growing by the day. By my track record it can be seen that I have had problems since I joined with people saying I am a sockpuppet. It all seems to be linked to Ulster Defence Regiment, a page which has been fought over for so long it's unbelieveable, although I didn't know that when I started to edit. As a result of my inexperience I received a 24 hour block so I went away and edited other articles and my track record on that speaks for itself. I have interfaced successfully with other users, created a good article and brought several more up at least one class - all with no problems, proper discussion and following the rules of Wikipedia as I learn them. I moved to edit the Ulster Defence Regiment page again and the trouble started again. I am hoping to stamp this out because no editor should have to go through what I'm going through at the moment and I ask for help from anyone who cares to give it. Thank you. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- He was warned on his talk page about WP:OUTING with a link to the relevant discussion here. But he obviously wants to continue his outing attempts. And here are another couple of links which might be of interest Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Thunderer/Archive and User talk:HelloAnnyong/Archive 13#Assistance Requested Mo ainm~Talk 12:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- As if by magic one of the protagonists appears. My account is being scrutinised in violation of WP:WIKIHOUNDING
to prevent me making any progress. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just as well ANI is on my watch list as you didn't notify me about this thread and don't think you notified Hackney either. Mo ainm~Talk 12:34, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no requirement to notify anyone about harrassment. I could, and still might, do it privately. Why don't you just leave me alone? SonofSetanta (talk) 12:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you report a user at this board, you MUST notify them. No exceptions. This is an open venue - expect comments. Also, this is forum shopping - you're just rehashing what you've said at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#SonofSetanta. No administrative action is warranted here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no requirement to notify anyone about harrassment. I could, and still might, do it privately. Why don't you just leave me alone? SonofSetanta (talk) 12:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just as well ANI is on my watch list as you didn't notify me about this thread and don't think you notified Hackney either. Mo ainm~Talk 12:34, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I've come here for help. I'm not an experienced editor, although these people are suggesting I am. I need help to stop the harrassment. May I ask: how is dismissing the complaint seen as useful to me? Have you no follow up advice? Where do I go next, who do I talk to or am I expected to just endure this in contravention of everything I've read on the help pages? SonofSetanta (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING does go both ways :-) WP:CLEANSTART is also very clear in its usage. I could see lots of blocks, unless I implemented a whack of WP:AGF (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- May I refer you to [16]. I had missed the significance, but SonofSetanta has also been pointed here. If a user has retired an account and started another because of outing issues related to the old account, then continually drawing attention to it is outing and blockable, and I suggest SonofSetanta shuts up before I do think of some administrative action. If his edits weren't problematic, he wouldn't be at AE to start with. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING does go both ways :-) WP:CLEANSTART is also very clear in its usage. I could see lots of blocks, unless I implemented a whack of WP:AGF (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Why would you want to take administrative action against me, I came here for help? My record stands as that of a good editor who has contributed a decent amount. I only had a problem at the very start and now again on the same article. I'm finding it all very sinister. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING only applies to personal information, not to account names unless those account names refer to personal information. Mo ainm~Talk 13:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hmmm, well, let me say it this way: TheThunderer account is not blocked, and has not edited since 2008. Let's assume for 2 seconds that you're right, and Setanta is TheThunderer ... it would appear that they too did a WP:CLEANSTART. By trying to place a link between those two accounts, you'd be hypothetically just as guilty as they are by linking 2 accounts. WP:SOCK/WP:EVADE does not apply in this case (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, I've been round this loop a good few times before. If the old account does not contain, or is not associated with, personal information, it's not outing, but it is incivil to repeatedly refer to the person by the old account name. I would think that applies here - the old account isn't blocked, and isn't editing, and hasn't edited for 3 years, so it makes no difference whether this is the same person. They aren't breaking any rules, and users should just let the horse die. Mo ainm however had a personal information issue with their previous account - now that SonofSetanta has been appraised of this, he should not again repeat the information onwiki. So slightly different, but everyone should let this previous username issue drop RIGHT NOW and focus on current editing. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) As has been verified by a checkuser/oversighter, my clean start is legit. "Clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny" - SonofSetanta has done all those things - returned to the old topic area, returned to the same edit warring, returned to the same problematic editing - all while trying to hide behind an "I'm new and being harassed" mask, even repeatedly denying being a sock while facing arbitration enforcement. So I ask you, do you consider covering up a lengthy block log for poor behaviour in the Troubles related area while facing a new block for poor behaviour in the Troubles related area to be a legitimate use of socks? Rest assured should the identity of my previous account be relevant to any such proceedings, I will be happy to reveal it to the people concerned. Mo ainm~Talk 13:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- But you HAVE returned to areas of conflict. Your old block log showed multiple incidences of problems on sites concerning the Irish Troubles and, if I'm not wrong, the Ulster Defence Regiment article was one of them. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's a common misapprehension that returning to previous areas is forbidden. In fact, all CLEANSTART warns is that you're likely to be recognised, and people may see it as evading scrutiny. In this case, unless there are intervening accounts, there's such a huge time gap that I doubt it's significant. Just focus on his current problematic evidence - sufficient unto the day is the weevil thereof. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC) (Note, that remark was addressed to Mo ainm)
- But you HAVE returned to areas of conflict. Your old block log showed multiple incidences of problems on sites concerning the Irish Troubles and, if I'm not wrong, the Ulster Defence Regiment article was one of them. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hmmm, well, let me say it this way: TheThunderer account is not blocked, and has not edited since 2008. Let's assume for 2 seconds that you're right, and Setanta is TheThunderer ... it would appear that they too did a WP:CLEANSTART. By trying to place a link between those two accounts, you'd be hypothetically just as guilty as they are by linking 2 accounts. WP:SOCK/WP:EVADE does not apply in this case (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING only applies to personal information, not to account names unless those account names refer to personal information. Mo ainm~Talk 13:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
What problematic editing? I made a mistake when editing. I have not been a problem. The problem is that I have not been shown good faith. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:23, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- So here's an idea: everybody cease and desist from referring to anyone by what may or may not be their old account. SonofSetanta is violating WP:OUTING - they're duly warned to knock it off. However, retaliatory and continual referring to Setanta as someone they may or may not have been is uncivil and disruptive. Move along, get along, or ya won't be here forlong. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see what you've written. I understand it and will abide by it. Would you be kind enough to place a warning on Moaimh and One Night in Hackney's page. I would assert that is where the incivility is coming from. Can you also advise me please what I should do if the incivility and harrasment continues? SonofSetanta (talk) 13:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It seems as if I am the only one listening to you. May I ask you to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mo_ainm and see his last two contributions (at time of writing) both of which contain incivility towards me. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you're going to edit articles in that area - and make statements like this, you're going to get strong reactions. The last two edits of Mo ainm were not incivil, particularly given everything that has gone on, and your post on his talkpage was probably unwise. In any case, he is entitled to revert it. Your best bet is just to keep talking on the article talkpage, where at least it seems to be largely constructive. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not perfect but the comment about the Irish was made in good faith and not intended to be an insult to anyone of that nationality. I am happy to confirm that now and on the talk page of the article. Apart from that I just want the incivility and harrassment to stop and for other editors to behave in the same way as those on the Military Project page i.e, makes edits within the rules and then discuss if there is a disagreement. None of this "You can't do that" type of thing I've been facing. Some good faith extended in my direction would really make me feel welcome. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you're going to edit articles in that area - and make statements like this, you're going to get strong reactions. The last two edits of Mo ainm were not incivil, particularly given everything that has gone on, and your post on his talkpage was probably unwise. In any case, he is entitled to revert it. Your best bet is just to keep talking on the article talkpage, where at least it seems to be largely constructive. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It seems as if I am the only one listening to you. May I ask you to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mo_ainm and see his last two contributions (at time of writing) both of which contain incivility towards me. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see what you've written. I understand it and will abide by it. Would you be kind enough to place a warning on Moaimh and One Night in Hackney's page. I would assert that is where the incivility is coming from. Can you also advise me please what I should do if the incivility and harrasment continues? SonofSetanta (talk) 13:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you to both admins who offered advice and assistance. It is very much appreciated. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your best bet is not to edit in that area - it is one of the most POV driven biased sectors on the whole project with groups of tag team editors and nationalists everywhere - all the articles are worthless to readers, and as far as NPOV goes they're a joke. I had to laugh when you reminded me of User:Big Dunc - that account was used as a blind revert account and left with trojan email goodbyes. Youreallycan (talk) 15:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting. While I take on board what you say I can't agree that any editor should stay away from an article just because some people want to keep their POV on it. I have noticed sinister goings on however and your post highlights some of them. What can be done about it however? Is there an avenue of investigation we can ask admins to follow to try and make conditions suitable for all editors on the site to post, without harrassment, on every article? SonofSetanta (talk) 15:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- That sector is so bad your best chance is to - walk away and never look back. Youreallycan (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No way would I ever let someone stop me editing an article. This may not be an appropriate time to enter into the politics of the site but what you've said is a shocking indightment of misuse of policy if editors are able to get away with imposing a POV on an organisation as big as Wikipedia. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with someone stopping you ... it's just that some areas of Wikipedia are just massive cesspools of neverending gloom and decay. In my real life, I wrote a series of articles on a topic quite similar to the one you're voluntarily editing in ... I received death threats afterwards. No way will I leap into those areas, except to perform admin tasks where needed. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have some knowledge of what you're talking about. I hope I'm not attaching too much gravitas to your admin position here but isn't that really what it's about? Aren't you able to spot anyone pushing a POV and stop them? I do agree with Youreallycan (talk) that there seems to be "something rotten in the State of Denmark" and I'm very keen to do anything I can to help. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is well beyond something one admin can fix. This has been ongoing since 2007. There are too many people and groups with deep-seated opinions on this matter for it to be as simple as "spot(ting) anyone pushing a POV." I admire your tenacity, but diving into articles about The Troubles is asking for stress & grief. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have some knowledge of what you're talking about. I hope I'm not attaching too much gravitas to your admin position here but isn't that really what it's about? Aren't you able to spot anyone pushing a POV and stop them? I do agree with Youreallycan (talk) that there seems to be "something rotten in the State of Denmark" and I'm very keen to do anything I can to help. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with someone stopping you ... it's just that some areas of Wikipedia are just massive cesspools of neverending gloom and decay. In my real life, I wrote a series of articles on a topic quite similar to the one you're voluntarily editing in ... I received death threats afterwards. No way will I leap into those areas, except to perform admin tasks where needed. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No way would I ever let someone stop me editing an article. This may not be an appropriate time to enter into the politics of the site but what you've said is a shocking indightment of misuse of policy if editors are able to get away with imposing a POV on an organisation as big as Wikipedia. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- That sector is so bad your best chance is to - walk away and never look back. Youreallycan (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting. While I take on board what you say I can't agree that any editor should stay away from an article just because some people want to keep their POV on it. I have noticed sinister goings on however and your post highlights some of them. What can be done about it however? Is there an avenue of investigation we can ask admins to follow to try and make conditions suitable for all editors on the site to post, without harrassment, on every article? SonofSetanta (talk) 15:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia must have a solution for this then if it's been going for so long. I mean presumably some interest groups present a similar problem i.e. those on Palestine? SonofSetanta (talk) 17:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Same problems there, the Balkans, etc. As long as it's the "encylopedia anyone can edit", we'll have issues. Just like a nurse in a burn unit eventually becomes "burnt out", these areas of Wikipedia are the cause of a lot of burnout. Sanity is more important (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Palestine-Israel, Scientology and others have all been perennial problems. Check out Wikipedia:General sanctions for other examples. These subjects ignite passions and drive people who believe strongly in them to abuse Wikipedia to push their own agendas. Aside from those who break specific sanctions, it's extremely difficult to keep those subjects stable. There's no easy answer here. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- FWIW, if there's concerns about socking on both sides, then run CU. It least it would remove any doubts. GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- (a)no-one will run a usercheck on a fishing expedition−
- (b)there are no socks. There are two alleged instances of an individual retiring one account and starting another. Since this is entirely within the rules, refer to (a)
- (c) checkuser is not magic pixie dust. If a user last edited three years ago, there's nothing to compare to. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, based on WP:SCRUTINY the creation of a clean account is a problem if it is used to conceal prior bad acts to prevent other editors from detecting a pattern of disruptive editing. In this case Setanta and Mo would probably both be guilty of violating it, I think. Setanta has been more obvious about it by going right back to the same article and denying any prior involvement on Wikipedia, while Mo seems to have focused on edit-warring over the nationality of various well-known people i.e. fighting over whether x famous person is Irish or British with lots of fluff edits between these periods of edit-warring.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- As I've said before however: any similarity between myself and any other editor is purely coincidental. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, based on WP:SCRUTINY the creation of a clean account is a problem if it is used to conceal prior bad acts to prevent other editors from detecting a pattern of disruptive editing. In this case Setanta and Mo would probably both be guilty of violating it, I think. Setanta has been more obvious about it by going right back to the same article and denying any prior involvement on Wikipedia, while Mo seems to have focused on edit-warring over the nationality of various well-known people i.e. fighting over whether x famous person is Irish or British with lots of fluff edits between these periods of edit-warring.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
About the one person with 3 users
I saw that the message I wrote to you was gone and I don't know if you intend to do something about it. I wrote to you that with his 3 users, he destroys and vandalize some values. The blocking has ended, and he begins to do the same things that he done before and I feel he would do the same mistakes that he repeats them. I don't come to you with any complaints but I came to you for help. --Friends147 (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: This presumably relates to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive735#ONE PERSON with 3 USERS. Deor (talk) 21:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Request for page protection is the best place - we can't indef IP's typically (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Tagging campaign
I have encountered an anon user with a Brazilian IP range who seems to be on a fly-by tagging campaign. Asked as help desk about this, but no response yet, as many of these tags are incorrect, or questionable: e.g. "citation needed" against existing refs and in lead/infobox when cited later in main body, also using "verification needed" and "quotation requested" against refs that are reliable and legit. Seems not to want to use edit summaries, and moving fast from article to article. Several of their tags have been reverted by myself and other editors where they seem misplaced, but there are a lot to keep up with. In several cases, they have returned to the same articles and added more tags. Unusual, and am not sure what to do. Seems almost bot like, and with the change of IP (dynamic?) I'm not sure if they'll respond to anyone on talk pages. User has been templated in some cases, I have not left a notification of this ANI yet, but if someone feels they need leaving a note, advise me where. Notified the latest IP used.
- Special:Contributions/187.15.79.196
- Special:Contributions/187.15.19.24
- Special:Contributions/187.15.33.12
Ma®©usBritish [chat] 23:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that such drive-by tagging is disruptive. However, someone who understands range blocks (not me, obviously) should have a look. Blocking any one of these IPs is not going to do anything. Yes, do leave notifications on those three talk pages please. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I have to add on looking at the contributions of these ips that every single one of the edits by them is on pages I have recently edited myself. Compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gaius_Octavius_Princeps to those provided by Marcus above. I find this...Very.Strange. Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 23:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Really? You suspect some kind of stalkish sock behaviour? Coincidence like that would be pretty rare. Hopefully someone will figure it out, though if you recall any Brazilian editor who may have got on your bad side of in the past an SPI check might find out more. Ma®©usBritish [chat] 23:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- No one willing to look into this matter? Ma®©usBritish [chat] 08:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
PGPirate
User appears to be going on an AFD tear, taking aim at a long list of college fight songs. Perhaps this is a reaction to this [17], but this looks like a vendetta. 76.248.147.199 (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed. I left a message on his talk page a few minutes ago asking him to stop as this is incredibly WP:POINTY. I'm tempted to speedy close all those nominations... Salvio Let's talk about it! 23:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Administrator note I've blocked PGPirate for 24 hours for his continued disruptive editing after the warnings. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Good block. Salvio Let's talk about it! 23:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- For the record, I count 83 AfDs nominated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 January 11 within a period of one hour. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Good block. Salvio Let's talk about it! 23:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you both. I happened upon this at Boola Boola--not notable? I beg your pardon, kind sir. Harumph. 76.248.147.199 (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)On a somewhat unrelated note, how is PGPirate a reviewer? The sheer number of warnings going back months on their talk page would concern me abut the editor's WP:COMPETENCE. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well, that userright is pretty much useless, considering admins cannot use pending changes any longer... So I'd say there's really no need to remove it... Salvio Let's talk about it! 00:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Agreed, good block. I'd suggest speedy closing the nominations. Judging that he nominated at least one GA for deletion, Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech, the nominator did not concern himself with WP:BEFORE. Disavian (talk) 23:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Uggh, this editor didn't even glance a look at the reflist for On, Wisconsin! (aka the state song of Wisconsin also), which has plenty of sources. Can we have a speedy close on those that are pretty darned obvious speedy keeps? Nate • (chatter) 00:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Seconded. User may have slight conflict of interest over East Carolina....76.248.147.199 (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)x3 Hang on before you close all of them, some do have merit though and there is a number of issues with lyrics on a number of them (see WP:NOTLYRICS) and in some cases they could be copyvio issues. Mtking (edits) 00:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Does this user have any relation to Wuhwuzdat (talk · contribs)? The mass-nomination caught my eye. HurricaneFan25 00:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Update: 78 of the articles nominated in bad faith have been speedily kept, while five were kept open due to delete !votes (Across the Field, Up With Montana, The Bells Must Ring, Buckeye Battle Cry, and Dear Old Nebraska U). Eagles 24/7 (C) 00:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BEFORE is not policy or a guideline. The rationale for blocking him was his failure to follow this suggestion. 76.118.180.210 (talk) 00:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've should have refreshed the ANI page before closing some of the Afd's with delete votes. I think it's best to close of all of them for now. --Lenticel (talk) 01:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Considering he posted that article about the ECU fight song SIX YEARS AGO, and somebody got the bright idea to nominate it for deletion now, I could see why he'd be miffed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: Across the Field and The Bells Must Ring are still open at AfD. They should be speedily closed like all the others. Carrite (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting point. How is the Rutgers fight song notable, other than being connected with Rutgers? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Request is it possible to shift all those speedy keeps off the AfD page for 11 January: they make the page a bit awkward. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 01:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps a couple of collapsable boxes for the afd would do. The speedy keeps would be hidden from view but can still be accessed from the Jan 11 page if necessary.--Lenticel (talk) 03:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Done The Bushranger One ping only 06:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: I think it is important to note that Mtking (talk · contribs) is seemingly a co-conspirator in this vendetta against college fight songs. He's gone through many of the oldest and obviously public domain fight songs and suggested their deletion after removing their lyrics and rendering any comments on those lyrics senseless. Lyrics are clearly allowed in certain cases since articles such as Happy Birthday to You,Ring a Ring o' Roses, or The Star-Spangled Banner would not be understandable without the lyrics. Hundred-year old fight songs are similar in this respect. In Up With Montana Mtking (talk · contribs) actually follows PGPirate (talk · contribs)'s AFD lead by deleting a comparison of three similar fight songs [18]. How can an article include a debate about why three cross-country songs from the early 20th century are so similar make any sense without including the lyrics to the songs? Mtking (talk · contribs)'s argument is that since the main source of information about a school song is the school itself it is not notable. Of course, this is true about almost ANYTHING about a university. He is clearly holding a grudge similar to PGPirate (talk · contribs) and his recent edit history suggests they're following the same path with different tactics. The shear number of such edits on the subject show that it cannot be seen as being done in good faith. - 50.135.30.251 (talk) 20:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Absolute rubbish, until yesterday I don't think I had ever come across PGPirate, and you will note from my comments above that that I said some had merit and do not support in any way his mass AfD. WP:NOTLYRICS is very clear " Quotations from an out-of-copyright song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article." As for the point about the source of information, it is not my argument, it goes to the core of WP:GNG when it says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article" so if the source is the university it clearly does not meet the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Mtking (edits) 21:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Someone's day job must be a meter maid. See WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. WP:NOTLYRICS was clearly designed to avoid Wikipedia from becoming a pop-song lyric database and was not meant to apply to historical and culturally significant songs like the one's listed above or college fight songs in general. As someone who's had to deal with Mtking (talk · contribs) before, I can tell you he has a general antipathy for all things related to college sports. He follows me around to every page I edit, which is probably how he came across the aforementioned Up With Montana song. He's messed with the Montana Grizzlies, Montana Grizzlies football, deleted almost every picture associated with them and has even screwed with my home town of Missoula, Montana's pages. Pretty keen interest in the happenings of a small town in Montana for a guy in Australia who admittedly knows nothing about college sports. That this man is disruptive is an understatement. The guy's a stalker. - Dsetay (talk) 00:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- Absolute rubbish, until yesterday I don't think I had ever come across PGPirate, and you will note from my comments above that that I said some had merit and do not support in any way his mass AfD. WP:NOTLYRICS is very clear " Quotations from an out-of-copyright song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article." As for the point about the source of information, it is not my argument, it goes to the core of WP:GNG when it says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article" so if the source is the university it clearly does not meet the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Mtking (edits) 21:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Honestly, shouldn't most of the school song articles be changed to redirects and the material added to the school's main article as a short section? The AFD's mentioned above were speedily kept, but the two that apparently started this weren't. That seems ... odd. Ravensfire (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Now that the disruption is addressed, editors are encouraged to renominate the articles based on their individual merits rather than by drive by afd tagging.--Lenticel (talk) 00:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Article Rescue Squadron on AfD
I have put an article up for deletion on the basis that it essentially duplicated material that was covered elsewhere already or could be covered elsewhere easily and at first there were several delete votes citing that basis. Then User:Northamerica1000 gave a keep vote basically suggesting, based off the fact the material wasn't present in the two most general articles on the subject, that somehow I was making up that it was covered elsewhere, while mentioning a list of sources even though my argument did not challenge the article on notability. The creator of the article reiterates that editor's argument and so I note that my objection was not about notability, specifically stating where the information was already included or could easily be included.
After several more editors pushed for a keep vote citing Northamerica I noticed they are all in the "Article Rescue Squadron" and that the article had been tagged for "rescue" from deletion by Northamerica. While the group is ostensibly about improving articles so they will be kept, their only real contributions in the AfD have been to make keep votes, with some of them doing nothing more than citing the previous argument for why the article should be kept and emphasizing the keep argument's "compelling" nature. Noticing that this was a blatant violation of WP:CANVASS I added a tag to clarify this was not about a majority vote. User:Dream Focus removed the tag claiming this was not canvassing and accusing me of making a "bad faith assumption" about the rescue tag.
Despite attempting to discuss it at Northamerica's talk page the editor is clearly not interested. He insists his actions do not amount to canvassing, claiming he only notified four users who had edited the page before (not addressing the impact of the rescue tag itself), and throws out WP:CENSORED for no apparent reason. Northamerica then accuses me of complaining and disagreeing with Wikipedia's policy on notability, even though I had repeatedly said my reason for the AfD had nothing to do with notability.
The broader issue is that this group seems to serve more as a vehicle for inclusionists to canvass for keeping articles nominated for deletion than as a means to legitimately improve Wikipedia in general. Evidence for this can be found in the language on using the rescue tag calling on members to "comment at the deletion discussion on why this item should be rescued and how that could happen" as a nice way of telling members of the group to vote keep on any article with the tag. As noted on Northamerica's talk page, the very idea of tagging an article for "rescue" after it is nominated for deletion violates WP:CANVASS as it "preselects recipients according to their established opinions" as opposed to a neutral notification of all interested editors.
Dream Focus is particularly blunt about this inclusionist agenda-warrior behavior. That user's page reads at times like some sort of inclusionist manifesto with a long list of "successes" and at other times like an explicit instruction manual on how to game the system in favor of the inclusionist position. The userpage has been recognized as such a blatantly abrasive soapbox that it has been nominated for deletion twice, though naturally the members of the Article Rescue Squadron "save the day" each time.
My thought is that the only feasible way to stop this kind of activity without getting rid of the group altogether is to explicitly restrict anyone in this group from getting involved in AfDs and limiting them explicitly by policy to only editing the article itself when it is nominated for deletion. Otherwise, it appears they will continue to be a force of disruption in pursuit of their higher purpose.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- We have a function called "Articles for 'Deletion" and you're concerned that an "Article Rescue Squad" is overly inclusionist? How about seeing it as a corrective to ingrained systemic bias? In any case, what, exactly, are you asking admins to do here, or are you just generally bitchin' and moanin'? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Forget this inclusionist deletionists nonsense. That isn't relevant here at all. What's on my user page and the fact that it got nominated twice for deletion but was seen by people, including those not part of the ARS, as being related to Wikipedia and thus allowed, has nothing to do with the current issue. Canvass rules state you can contact everyone who has participated in a previous AFD, or discussed things recently on a talk page of an article nominated. There is no rule against that. AFD is not a vote. If reliable sources have been found that give significant coverage to an issue, then the article is saved, and if not it is destroyed. All Wikiprojects have it where you can list AFDs related to them. Dream Focus 07:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- This exact concern with the ARS has been raised a number of times in the past, and there's never been consensus to restrict their activities in anything like the way you suggest (AFAIK). Indeed, I strongly oppose any such restriction. The ARS, on paper, serves an extremely valuable function. That's not to say I entirely disagree with your underlying complaint. There is, more often than not, a pretty big difference between the intended-on-paper effect of a rescue tag and the tag's actual effect. Just remember: AFD is not a vote. Policy wins, not a cavalcade of keep or delete votes. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 08:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Some members of this squadron came to an AfD I nominated recently Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of weather websites in the Philippines, but they have made a reasonable contribution there. While I do think they are making a fair effort to improve articles, I have to share TDA's concerns after seeing what is happening with the AfD he has brought up. We have to be careful that the rescue tag in combination with a rescue "squadron" does not lead to some unintended votestacking effect. We cannot avoid the fact that a selected group with a known opinion (leaning towards keeping more articles), get's notified by this.
- The idea that it are not the votes that are counted, but the policy based points, is a nice ideal, but does it also work that way in practice? I think the votes do sway the opinion, maybe not of the closing editor, but of the other people who vote or comment in the AfD. And if the votes are not counted, then why do we give a vote? Then we can as well just comment (which is what I am always doing) and let the closing editors count the policy based points from all the comments. If the votes are not counted anyway, then why do we worry about votestacking and canvassing? Answer: it is a problem because the vote count actually does play some role, no matter how much we try to dream otherwise. And that's why it is a problem when a rescue tag on an AfD article starts pulling in "squadron" members who then all vote "Keep" because the article has their project rescue tag on it.
- I see two things that could help with this. 1) the rescue project could make more clear to its member that "Keep" is not the only way that an article can get rescued. "Merge" and "Rename" are two other possible votes/outcomes of an AfD in which the material gets kept and can get improved by this rescue team. So I would expect to see a little more variation in their AfD votes. 2) Restricting the rescue team members from voting in AfD is rather drastic. I don't think that's necessary. But it might be good when rescue members mention their membership when they vote in a AfD that was tagged for rescue. That wouldn't hurt. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
From the ARS' own project page: "The Article Rescue Squadron is not about arguing on talk pages but instead about editing articles... adding sources and rewriting the text to remove or reword unsuitable content [, which] will help other editors decide if the article should be kept or deleted... The Article Rescue Squadron (ARS) is not about casting keep votes...". The problem appears to be that some ARS members (mentioning no names) seem to view their role as votestackers rather than editors: I've often encountered ARS members at AfD who's only contribution to either article or debate was "meets GNG" or similar (again, I'm deliberately not providing names or diffs, this shouldn't be a witchhunt), but such arguments will be discounted by any competent closing admin. This is an issue with individual users, rather than with the ARS Project as a whole. Yunshui 雲水 12:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you see reliable sources already found by someone, click on them and agree they are reliable, then what else would you say? Everyone looks at the references and either agrees that is sufficient coverage or they argue that it isn't. Dream Focus 14:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- AN/I is not really the right venue for this. What the ARS is doing here is pretty much what the ARS does; as always the closing admin has the discretion to disregard poorly considered votes (keep, delete or otherwise) or votes that don't address the rationale presented for deletion. If the closing admin weighs such votes improperly in your view, DRV provides a remedy. If you're looking for a more broad debate on the ARS, you'll need to put together an RFC. 28bytes (talk) 12:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- There are no AFD members that comment in every single article tagged for Rescue, spamming "keep" about. That has never been a problem. Those that show up usually look over the list and only click on something that catches their interest. There are articles tagged which none of us respond to. If I can determine with 100% certainly an article should be deleted, I do post "delete" at times. If not, I usually just ask questions, or don't comment at all. Dream Focus 14:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Advocate here. It seems blatently clear to me that a great many life preservers are thrown not to improve the article, but as a clarion call to get ARS members to participate in AfD discussions. They don't necessarily need to get all their members out to vote; three or four of them will usually sway many AfDs in their favor. I've also seen ARS members add sources that barely mention a topic at all, then claim that that means that it passes GNG and must automatically be kept. Those sources are essentially no better than if the article wasn't sourced at all. And very rarely do I see ARS members get an article to DYK or GA quality, or even B or C class. They often just improve an article just enough so it allegedly passes GNG. And that's another problem with ARS members...many of them disdain notability guidelines, particularly the specific ones like WP:POLITICIAN, which they choose to ignore, claiming only GNG matters. I've even seen ARS members start threads on ANI against people who nominate articles for deletion based mostly on the fact that they didn't like their nominations. This has gotta stop Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 14:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree. I have rarely seen the squadron be helpful in an article. Usually all it is, is a call to come and stack votes when I see the template put on the article. The rare times I see an attempt to put any effort into fixing the article its with links that only have a passing mention of the subject and don't actually help with anything. -DJSasso (talk) 14:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'd like to see the main rescue template be done away with entirely, honestly; one troublesome wikiproject does not have a right to advertise itself in article-space as they do. Let them reword Template:ARSnote and use that to flag the AfDs only if they like, just as other wikiprojects do. Tarc (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with most of what PBP said. The ARS is of course entitled to its own opinion about the notability guidelines, wrong though it is. But their template amounts to canvassing for inclusioniosts, their members frequently attack AfD nominators and people they perceive as enemies, and they try to save articles with dubious sources because they want to beat their enemies, not improve the encyclopedia. Reyk YO! 20:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- As the comments below are mostly about the tag it should be noted the main page of the Wikiproject itself does not really respect WP:CANVASS. Under the rescue template instructions there is a section for Usage with the following in boldface:
As part of this tag's use, please comment at the deletion discussion on why this item should be rescued and how that could happen.
- This reads like an instruction for any member of the group to vote keep on any tagged article. Other parts do say they are not about casting keep votes, but there is not an actual instruction against everyone just voting keep on the AfD when an article is tagged.
- It is also not just North's actions that are at issue. As noted before, Dream's userpage has several comments that are little more than advice about how to game a deletion discussion in favor of keep while railing about the horrible deletionists. That editor's page is also at times a blatant violation of WP:POLEMIC in its demonization of deletionists. Given that Dream is often voting keep right alongside North I think both of these editors are exhibiting problematic behaviors that need to be looked at.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see much use to this thread. If you don't like the actions of an individual editor, usually an Rfc or an Mfd of their userpage is the best way to proceed. If you object to the general idea of the ARS, you could bring the whole thing to Mfd--it's been done a few times before but maybe this time you'll get consensus. My suggestion is to monitor the pages that are tagged for rescue and counter what you see as frivolous votes with policy-based arguments. Or create a rival WP:WikiProject Policy and Guideline Based Articles for Deletion Comment Squad? (Maybe something a bit pithier though.) Mark Arsten (talk) 22:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- My opinion about the rescue tag (diff):
Goodvac (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)Most articles marked for rescue are not improved, despite ARS' professed purpose of improving articles at AfD ("The Article Rescue Squadron is not about arguing on talk pages but instead about editing articles."). See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Devolvement, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CanSat, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Semi-vegetarianism, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Good Day New York (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amber Smalltalk, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Respiratory Care Foundation for some recent examples. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Darkstars is a particularly telling example—a member of ARS marks an article for rescue merely because the article was relisted with no other voters. Goodvac (talk) 04:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps better to judge any tag by its successes, and not its failures, not by who uses it, and definitely not by assuming bad faith in its use. Besides being listed as a member or ARS, I am a member of
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers,
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography,
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Television,
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Film, and
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced articles,
- ...all being projects that include on their project page links to AFD delsorts of article of concern to those projects:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Actors and filmmakers,
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Deletion sorting
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Film
- or as in the case of WP:URA, they list articles that have issues needing to be addressed.
- The above are projects where my editing skills occasionaly prove helpful to the project through proactive article improvement. And worth noting, is that far more often than with ARS tags, the tags from these other projcts do not result in improvements nor prevent deletion of unsuitable articles. Interestingly, if being tagged through delsort for input from projects (other that ARS) results in a keep or a delete, we do not cry foul nor cry canvas.
- Should ARS tagging have better instruction? Perhaps. But a tagging NOT resulting in an article being improved is never a reason to not use such tags nor declare them somehow useless. The ultimate goal of any such tags is the improving of articles to better serve the project. The use or not of such tags is not predicated upon success, but upon hope. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Canvassing
Northamerica1000 should be banned from using the {{rescue}} template. Frankly, I don't see any point of it other than to canvass and I am tempted to send it back to TfD again. However, here are some examples of the tag being abused.
- TLG Communications
- Northamerica1000 tags article for rescue
- [19] Is a brief mention, not even an entire sentence
- [20]] Is also a brief mention but actually has 3 sentences
- Lena Cruz
- Northamerica1000 tags article for rescue
- 3 ARS members !vote ([21] [22] [23] keep at AFD without making improvements to the article
- Northamerica1000 tags article for rescue
- Cinnamon challenge
- Northamerica1000 tags article for rescue
- Northamerica1000 does major improvements to the article that satisfies GNG (rescued the article) but leaves the tag in place (effectively canvassing !keep votes, no other purpose now that article has been fixed)
- Two keep !votes ([24] [25]) having made no changes to the article
- Cyrus Pahlavi
- Tagged for rescue, AFD resulting in delete
- Russian Social Terms
- Tagged for rescue, AFD resulting in delete
- Children's Philanthropy Center
- Tagged for rescue, no improvements by Northamerica1000, AFD resulted in delete
All of this is actually an improvement over his previous typical drive-by {{rescue}} tagging [26], none of which received any improvement during the taging that would save it from AFD, but it's clear the tag is being used to canvass !votes rather than to improve.
Overall, I dislike Northamerica1000 but I'll firmly admit that he/she does a lot of work to improve articles that are up for deletion. My point point of contention is the overuse/abusive use of the {{rescue}} template. He/she clearly uses it to canvass rather than to suggest someone improves the article.--v/r - TP 19:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (an aside:) User:TParis informed me of this discussion. My being involved in the discussion at the above linked AFD for Lena Cruz was NOT due to or a result of the rescue tag. I was alerted to the article by that other tag placed on the article... the one by User:Gene93k: "Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)". However, I did not perceive Gene's use of the tag which alerted me to the article as either misused or canvassing. Further, my opinion there had absolutely nothing to do with the rescue tag... being based upon my own WP:BEFORE, the sources found and offered by others, and my conclusion that the project would be far better served by application of WP:ATD's suggesting nominators check for sources for an unref'd article and rather than force cleanup through AFD, instead consider tagging the article for issues... and in this particular case, notifying WP:BIOG or WP:URA through appropriate tagging would also not be misuse of tags or canvassing. A deletion based upon someone else not yet fixing an addressable issue, is not always the best option.Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 23:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why are you cherry picking AFDs like that? Childrens Philanthropy Center had one member of the Rescue Squadron say keep in it, that NorthAmerica1000. This should prove that tagging something for Rescue doesn't automatically bring over keep votes. It also shows that in places where most people said keep, they still delete some articles. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Russian_Social_Terms Three of us said Keep, it encyclopedic to have that, with only one person agreeing with the nominator to delete that. Wikipedia:Article_Rescue_Squadron/Article_list shows what articles are currently tagged, by who, and what the result is when the AFD is over. Dream Focus 20:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Whether or not some people vote keep sometimes is rather irrelevant since posting to a illusionist group where it can be safely assumed that in most (not all) cases its likely to get a keep instead of a delete is clearly doing it for the canvass value and would violate the part of canvass which says not to post invites to editors clearly on one side of the issue and not to both sides. -DJSasso (talk) 20:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- The use of Childrens Philanthropy Center was to demonstrate a case of an article that couldn't be rescued but was tagged anyway. Honestly, the tag is pointless because if you do the work to determine if an article is rescuable, than you are 3/4ths of the way to rescuing the article yourself (ie, you've found refs).--v/r - TP 20:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Whether or not some people vote keep sometimes is rather irrelevant since posting to a illusionist group where it can be safely assumed that in most (not all) cases its likely to get a keep instead of a delete is clearly doing it for the canvass value and would violate the part of canvass which says not to post invites to editors clearly on one side of the issue and not to both sides. -DJSasso (talk) 20:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Other Wikiprojects are informed of AFDs to bring interested parties to them. I don't really see any difference here. Someone believes that the article is notable and request help in finding reliable sources to back that up, and those of us wishing to help show up and do so. I'd like to see what people who don't regularly but heads with the ARS members in various AFDs have to say. Obviously if you are determined to delete something, and people show up and interfere with you getting your way, some would be upset about that, and start complaining about those on the other side of the argument with them. And we could just as easily cherry pick examples of someone clearly notable, who had people show up and say delete without bothering to even click the Google news search link at the top of the AFD, and find that had a detailed article about them in the New York Times. Dream Focus 20:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I picked articles and AFDs based on whether the rescue tag involved
improvements by the ARSimprovements by Northamerica1000 or just keep !votes. I saw none tagged by Northamerica1000 that involved improvements by other ARS members. Feel free to prove me wrong. The rescue tag should be removed once improvements are made to an article. The {{rescue}} template is a big notification to folks who are self-identified "inclusionists" and violates the "Audience" part of WP:CANVASS. (After EC) And other Wikiprojects do not have a problem with the "Audience" portion. There isn't a bias to include articles by other projects.--v/r - TP 20:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC) - (edit conflict)Other Wikiprojects are likely to have varying viewpoints on if an article should be kept or not. A wikiproject whose sole purpose is to save articles from deletion is clearly not in the same category as most wikiprojects. Its no wonder that many people consider the ARS as WikiProject:Canvass. -DJSasso (talk) 20:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I picked articles and AFDs based on whether the rescue tag involved
- Support: It does seem like Northamerica and others are using the tag for the wrong reasons. Northamerica can improve articles all he wants (provided the references he uses are of proper quality and he follows all relevant guidelines), but I think he should step away from tagging them for rescue. TP, you're absolutely right the the template should go if it continues to be serially misused. Failing that, I honestly believe you shouldn't be allowed to participate in an AfD of an article you tagged for rescue. One or the other, not both Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 20:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Please see the instructions for use of the rescue tag, at WP:RESCUETEMPLATE. I didn't create the instructions for this template, I just abide by them. Thank you. Northamerica1000(talk) 20:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- oppose Although I would hope that closing admins at AfD have the nous to ignore a chorus of bleating "keeps" with nothing to back them up. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment– I don't use the rescue template for any reason other than tagging articles for rescue that I consider to be notable topics, which could use more sourcing, copy-editing, inline citations, and general clean-up. Per WP:RESCUETAG, the instructions for placing the template are as follows:
"Our main focus is on articles on notable topics going through Articles for deletion (AfD) that:
- Need references
- Are written poorly
- Lack information readily available
- Need cleaning up."
- Perhaps this discussion should be about the instructions for use of the rescue tag, because I always only follow the instructions. Use of the rescue tag is not canvassing, it's placing a template on an article per the instructions. I have no control how other Wikipedia users !vote in AfD discussions whatsoever. I have never canvassed or messaged anyone to post a "keep" !vote in an AfD discussion whatsoever. I was disappointed to see that a user I haven't communicated with much has started this discussion by stating that they dislike me from the start; an unfortunate style in which to begin a discussion, in my opinion. I'm neutral about the individual who started this discussion myself, however. If you don't like the tag, for whatever reasons, then please feel free to send it to templates for discussion. The title of this discussion, "canvassing", and then my user name directly below it is misleading, in my opinion.
- Regarding the statement above about not removing the rescue tag after performing article improvements, again, this is due to the instructions at WP:RESCUETAG on the Article Rescue Squadron WikiProject (verbatim):
"Removing a rescue tag:
It is unhelpful, and possibly disruptive, to remove the rescue tag before a deletion discussion is complete. The XfD process usually takes a week, and the tag is in place for less than that. Let the XfD closer remove it when the XfD tag is removed or the item is deleted. In all cases remain civil, and assume good faith that other editors are working to improve Wikipedia."
- Removal of the tag prior to the AfD's closue is against the instructions for use of the tag, per the WikiProject's instructions. Thus, again, perhaps a discussion about the rules and guidelines of the WikiProject itself is in order. If I were to remove the tag prior to AfD closure, that would go against the instructions for use of the tag. Northamerica1000(talk) 20:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- A Wikiproject cannot invent rules for its own benefit and then point to those rules when their behaviour is questioned, expecting everyone else to respect and abide by them. Reyk YO! 21:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but removing a wikiproject's templates and tags without consensus is disruptive. Best to have that discussion first. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 21:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I joined ARS two days ago because I noticed that many tagged articles are indeed notable. I only consider it canvassing with individual editors and I do not consider it a rampant group of inclusionists that hijack AfDs with keeps. Dream Focus, for example, tagged a magazine article for rescue. Although the consensus was delete, I see why he did it. Even though the fact that the magazine's claim to notability was unreferenced, there was still a strong claim. I would be fine with the article being recreated if that claim was verified. Northamerica, on the other hand, has misused it. I would say though that the majority of ARS members do not use it wrongly. Sure it can even cause canvassing when it is used correctly, but that is what closings admins are for. SL93 (talk) 21:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - I have only followed the instructions for use of the template. Perhaps consider working to obtain consensus to change the instructions for use of the rescue template itself. The title of this discussion, "canvassing", and then my user name directly below it is misleading, in my opinion. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- That instruction page was created by a group of ARS users, hardly backed by community consensus. Goodvac (talk) 22:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Then address perceived issues and create a consesnsus for what those instructions might say. What is the sense of banning someone who did NOT create the instructions? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose ban Per the examples offered showing that AFD is not just a headcount and that closers properly weigh the merits of an AFD discussion before closing. When ANY project tag is added to an aricle at AFD, tt is either improved or it is not. That such tags alert those most often willing to improve articles, no matter the project or the tag, acts to improve the project. Forbidding someone from involving themselves in discussion of something that they have tagged in their hope that others more capable to do so might actually do so, does not improve the project. In order to avoid drama from those who dislike the tag I have myself for many many months avoided tagging aricles for rescue. This does not mean the tag is useless or that it is any more an act of canvassing than any other tag set to alert those who might be able to improve artcles for the project, that something needs their eyes. A use of such tags does not always result in an article being improved. Failure does not mean that such tags are useless. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I could accept that if there was stronger evidence showing that the results of the {{rescue}} template was improved articles rather than !votes at AFD. I saw very few times in Northamerica1000's rescue tagging where improvements were made by other ARS members (plenty he fixed himself and I nod him for that) but as I've shown above, it more often results in !votes.--v/r - TP 22:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Someone having a sense that something is improvable and then alerting others who may be more qualified to address issues is a better argument for addressing usage instructions, than it is for banning someone who uses it in good faith... even if the result was unsuccessful. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (after multiple E/Cs) I have to agree with TParis here; at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Elleore, there are three ARS members (and Radiofan (talk · contribs), whose essay makes it clear that he's a member, even without the tag on his page) who argued to keep the article. Northamerica1000 did some expansion work (including adding two reviews of the single book which contains a section relating to this micronation), but the fundamental notability issue remains (one book whose value as a source is open to question, and a single website hit with a cursory overview of the "nation's" claims). And yes, there was a rescue template tossed onto this article before the four ARS votes rolled in. (The article was kept, for what it's worth.) I don't know that this rises to the level of a topic ban, but it's food for thought.Horologium (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is becoming off-topic, re-discussion of an AfD here. It's one-sided to only mention how users of a WikiProject !voted and omit discussion and analysis about how other users who are not a part of the WikiProject !voted. It's also unfair and overly-assumptive to state that I am somehow knowledgeable in advance about what other Wikipedia users may hypothetically type on their computers after a template has been placed in an article in accordance with the instructions for using that template. Northamerica1000(talk) 00:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- I could accept that if there was stronger evidence showing that the results of the {{rescue}} template was improved articles rather than !votes at AFD. I saw very few times in Northamerica1000's rescue tagging where improvements were made by other ARS members (plenty he fixed himself and I nod him for that) but as I've shown above, it more often results in !votes.--v/r - TP 22:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment– Regarding the examples above, provided by creator of this discussion:
- TLG Communications - I've personally added more sources to this article after this discussion was began. See article. It takes time to do research, write, add sources, etc. No stipulation exists that all work has to be done at once. A significant part of use of the rescue template is to divide the work among Article rescue squadron WikiProject participants, in the interest of improving articles that are tagged for rescue. Of course, I have no control over what other users actually do or don't do.
- Lena Cruz - I have no control over what other users do on Wikipedia whatsoever, how they !vote, their actions, etc. I didn't canvass these people whatsoever or ask them to contribute to the article on their talk pages. I'm not responsible for other people's behaviors and actions.
- Cinnamon challenge - It's against the instructions at WP:RESCUETEMPLATE to remove the template once its been placed. These are the instructions.
- Regarding the articles that resulted in delete - Firstly, I don't have access to them, as they've been deleted. It is unreasonable to expect that all articles tagged for rescue will be kept, just as it is unreasonable to expect that all articles nominated for deletion will be deleted. Regarding the Children's Philanthropy Center article, could you point out specifically how "no improvements" were made? I recall doing some edits to the article, but don't have access to it, because it was deleted. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- You edited that article two times. One was to throw the ARS tag on, and the other was to change the size of the picture. Those were the last two edits to the article. Horologium (talk) 23:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Northamerica1000 made 9 edits. Of the other 7, 5 were minor formatting changes, 1 was addition of "{{stub}}" and 1 was removal of a prod tag. 28bytes (talk) 23:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying this, User:28bytes, I recall doing some work on the article. It's difficult to ascertain without access to it. The creator of this discussion stated that I made no improvements to the article (above). I now disagree with that assessment, as I work to improve articles. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- For the sake of fairness and transparency I have temporarily restored the page history here while this discussion is ongoing. 28bytes (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you User:28bytes. Your administrative capacity here is appreciated. It can be confusing when one administrator makes a statement that two edits were made to a deleted article, and then another administrator comes along and corrects the statement, without people being able to view the actual material. Northamerica1000(talk) 00:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- For the sake of fairness and transparency I have temporarily restored the page history here while this discussion is ongoing. 28bytes (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying this, User:28bytes, I recall doing some work on the article. It's difficult to ascertain without access to it. The creator of this discussion stated that I made no improvements to the article (above). I now disagree with that assessment, as I work to improve articles. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Just to clarify, Horologium means you editing that article two times since it was nominated for AFD. The two edits are as they describe above. The point is that no improvements were made once the rescue template was added.--v/r - TP 23:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no stipulation of being on a timer to do additional work after adding a template to an article. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- When you are discussing and article that is up for deletion, there is a timer. Horologium (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's not about a timer. If you made changes to "improve" the article, than what purpose was the {{rescue}} template? You already made changes to improve it, didn't you? If you add a rescue template, that implies there is more to be fixed and my point is that nothing happened. That seems to be either 1) There was nothing to improve and the article was misused on an unsalvagable article, 2) The article was improved to meet notability guidelines and the rescue template was used to canvass keep !votes, or 3) The article was not improved to meet notability guidelines and the rescue template was used to canvass keep !votes. What other purpose was the rescue template for that article?--v/r - TP 23:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no stipulation of being on a timer to do additional work after adding a template to an article. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Northamerica1000 made 9 edits. Of the other 7, 5 were minor formatting changes, 1 was addition of "{{stub}}" and 1 was removal of a prod tag. 28bytes (talk) 23:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment– Unfortunately, the preliminary wording of this discussion is very misleading, typecasting me as a canvasser when in reality, I've only followed the instructions for use of the rescue template. I am writing this statement for the record, so that it's included after this discussion has been archived. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wikiprojects are welcome to establish their own 'instructions', but local consensus within the project can't override the broader consensus in policies like WP:CANVASS or others. If the ARS page had a few lines saying that its members could, for instance, procedurally close any AFD at will simply on a whim, it should be obvious that even if everyone on the project agreed, they would still be held responsible for their actions if they actually acted to that effect. Even for things like the rescue template, the fact that it exists does not equate to tacit approval of its use. Wikipedia's policies still (and almost always) apply. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:13, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose AFD is chronically ill-attended to the point that discussions are carried forward from week to week in a vain attempt to stir up interest. For example, various features of the Gettysburg battlefield were recently taken to AFD in a spree and, in most cases, such as McMillan Woods, I am the only editor to have responded. In other cases, such as Patoli no-one has responded at all. In such circumstances, it is good to stimulate discussion and Northamerica1000 is to be praised for his vigour and energy in doing so. Warden (talk) 23:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing 1) any cause for administrator action, or 2) any allegation that the encyclopedia has been harmed by the presence or use of the rescue template. This seems like an entirely unimproved discussion vs. the last N+1 times it has happened. However I will admit that I have had my own suspicions that NorthAmerica1000 is actually a returning sockpuppet of one of the community-banned hyper-inclusionists, whose names will readily come to the minds of those who've been around the ARS debates for a while... Jclemens-public (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is my first and only Wikipedia account. Your suspicions are incorrect in this case. I'm not another person that you may be thinking about, in this case. Northamerica1000(talk) 01:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think it's fair to publicly accuse people of sockpuppetry without providing any supporting evidence. If you have good reasons for thinking Northamerica1000 is a returned banned user, this is not the place. You know the way to WP:SPI. Reyk YO! 01:36, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am confused as to what purpose {{rescue}} actually even serves. Do the articles tagged with this template merit saving over ones that are not tagged? Surely, if an article can be proven to meet GNG, the ARS member will be better served finding the reliable sources and dumping them on AfD, rather than tagging the article with the template and getting meaningless "keep" votes? —Dark 02:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok I am bringing this back here due to serious concerns about this user. Previous ANI resulted in advice given by user:Tide rolls. However since then he has continued his rants on article talk page accused me of accusing him of being a sock which I can't remember doing. This all stems fromm revering his initial edits on Lanny A. Breuer as flagged as a BLP issue on igloo vandalism program. If you look at his edit history he has 40 odd edits most of which are attacks, political statements and accusations of wikipedia. Being biased. As I don't have access to a computer I am unable to provide diffs but a quick look at his talk page mine and the article talk page and you will see what mean. I had asked the admin who gave advice to user last time. Tide rolls to reopen the ANI or take further action but he think user may become constructive again I don't see that happening.Edinburgh Wanderer 09:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Also his reply on Tide rolls talk page to me asking him to re look at the ANI should be viewed. To me it's clear there is competency issues alone with using Wikipedia as a political tool and attacking other users even if they are minor. Edinburgh Wanderer 09:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Greetings. I call to attention that Mr. Edinbergh did not notify me I was the topic of an ANI - now, for the second time.
- With all due respect, this is ridiculous. I was peeved (annoying, found it irritating) that my first-pass edits to Lanny Breuer, mentionng the notable topic of Fast and Furious were auto-deleted as "unconstructive", a day-or-two ago. This Edinbergh guy was really slam-dunk about how he did it, and not willing to discuss, whatsoever, and I responded in-kind.
- Since that point, I've made a few comments. Some of them have been really sarcastic. Biting, if you will.
- But the bottom-line is that Lanny Breuer's involvement in Fast and Furious, and "Fast and Furious" in general is a censored topic on Wikipedia - or so it would appear. It was noted in August 2011 by another used. I noted it two days ago - principally due to the team-based, tag-team removal "in all due haste" of referenced commentary.
- I guess you can have a big ANI about the matter, but I'm not all that interested. I guess this Edinbergh-guy has a lot of time to kill. I'll just watch and see how things develop. That is, if anyone is bored enough to make a big deal of the issue.
- Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 11:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- EW notified twmc here [27] Nobody Ent 11:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- He also notified about you the first discussion here. GiantSnowman 11:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm struggling to understand why TWMC's edits were simply reverted, as they were referenced by what look like reliable sources (one being the Washington Times). The "lying" heading should have been removed, but not the entire section. Number 57 11:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I struggled with it too, for a while. Then I got testy. :/ Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 11:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- It really does seem that there is some kind of systematic 'issue' with F&F, as well as LB's involvement in the matter. Someone-else noted it on his talk page in August 2011, citing that they were 'disappointed in Wikipedia's objectivity' (different words were used).
- What I noticed was that a group of people seemed to have the page (LB) on watch-list, and that (in my personal experience) it seems that any-such-related edits were "swooped upon", the edits labelled as "unconstructive" and the editor (me) labelled as making personal attacks - with what was frankly objective referenced editing. I was going to write more, and do clean-up, but "why bother" when you are attacked in the first five minutes of editing, called names, etc. That's why I got "all sarcastic and testy". Besides, this is pro forma at Wikipeida (at it's worst) so I know better than to take such team-based Wikipedia response-behavior personally. Or at least "too personally".Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- For what it is worth, Lanny Breuer got caught lying to the Senate. This is a matter of documented fact. This is not a personal attack on my part. I'll find a reference. Senator Grassley exclaimed on the Senate floor that AAG Breuer lied, and asked for his resignation, stating that if he didn't resign, he should be fired. Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 11:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have to get back to work, but there are a few references about the LB involvement (i.e. lying). I'll try to find the reference for Senator Grassley's youtube speech about the matter. It is quite a big deal, notable, and surprising that Wikipedia has a stop-order on edits on the subject-matter.
- Here are some references:
- * http://news.investors.com/Article/594827/201112141912/justice-aide-lies-about-fast-and-furious.htm
- * http://www.gopusa.com/news/2011/12/03/justice-dept-friday-night-fast-and-furious-document-dump/
- * Senator Grassley on youtube asking for resignation, citing lying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Wmk_O5QXM
- * to be added
- * to be added
- * to be added
- * to be added
- * to be added
- * Per Fast and Furious, a good link to read about the background is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html
- Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 11:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
2012 (UTC)
- they were reverted because igloo flagged them as vandalism. As I said on previous ANI when coming out of igloo I went back in and looked although sourced they were purely negative and not neutral. I advised turtle to look at BLP and re do. He has ignored that advice and two other users advice and instead started ranting on talk page and having a go at me. He has had plenty of opportunity to act xp constructivlyEdinburgh Wanderer 11:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)This isn't the right forum -- add your references to the article and/or the talk page. Request an WP:RFC if you need wider participation by the community. Nobody Ent 11:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- has anyone actually read his talk paga and userpage. I would also suggest reading the article talk page 40 odd edits and probay only one or two positive to the project. He has had time to add those sourced explain in the article the whole circumstances and it wouldn't be I'm breach of BLP. The behaviour is not ok if he chose to just sort it we wouldnt be having the problem. Edinburgh Wanderer 11:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- if you look at the first edit it tagged refs removed the second flags as possible BLP issue therefore igloo flags. It looked wrong and as far as I'm concerned without context it was a breach of BLP. I gave him advice as did others. There is nothing different I would do if he hadn't started bounding me on my talk page and rants on talkpage immediately then I probably would have went and sorted it but I'm not helping someone who hounds me and rants like that on page. Edinburgh Wanderer 11:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- That sort of edit is better done manually - i.e. click undo and explain the reason (to help the other editor understand the issue). Essentially all it needs is a reword. It's better to avoid escalation by using an undo and a hand-written explanation of the neutrality issues. (just because igloo identifies an edit as vandalism is not carte blanche - as with all automated tools the decision to rv is only with yourself). In this case this seems a content dispute, there is nothing "blockable" there and tiderolls seems to be making progress (if slowly) on the talk page. What exact action is needed here? --Errant (chat!) 12:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- EW's action, while well-intended, could have been much more productive. The information TWMC was trying to add is reliably sourced (Washington Post, Wall Street Journal et. al.) Assisting him in appropriate insertion with neutral phrasing would have been better than biting dismissive reverting. Nobody Ent 12:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- if you look at the first edit it tagged refs removed the second flags as possible BLP issue therefore igloo flags. It looked wrong and as far as I'm concerned without context it was a breach of BLP. I gave him advice as did others. There is nothing different I would do if he hadn't started bounding me on my talk page and rants on talkpage immediately then I probably would have went and sorted it but I'm not helping someone who hounds me and rants like that on page. Edinburgh Wanderer 11:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
So what your saying Ent is his behaviour is ok. I will never help someone who attacks me straight off. I woul of been more than willing to help him I gave advice. If he has asked or even enquired politely why but no he repeatedly had a go. Also could someone dig out previous ANI to show where I accused him of being a sockpuppet. If no action is taken I ask that he is told not to post on my talk page again I do not like the nature of the comments and have no intention of answering them. Edinburgh Wanderer 12:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- this is why the project is going down hill we have policies but they are never acted on. We have BLP for a reason we have no personal attacks but no pick on someone who is trying to do good. I have explained that I went back and looked at the edits and that he attacked me before I had a chance to do anything. I gave advice hand written and tags as did two others. Edinburgh Wanderer 12:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- NO, nobody is saying that his personal attacks and sarcasm are ok. Indeed, if someone is going to go off on a snitty rant every time someone disagrees with them, then the internet is perhaps not a good place for them. He's not going to be blocked for those rants (yet), but you've simply been advised on how to better handle those edits in the future that MIGHT lead to less snit in the future, and thus better communication all-round. Of course, everyone would do with a good re-read of WP:CONSENSUS, WP:BLP and WP:BRD :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)This is new editors TWMC first two edits ever: [28]. Both contributions are sourced and reasonably well edited. To just dump their contributions with no edit summary [29] (and the "minor" flag) is just rude. After TWMC raises the issue at the talk page, EW justifies their action because the tool said so[30] , an indication they are not using the tool appropriately. Nobody Ent 12:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I looked through the discussions and didn't see anything above the level of "ignore it and move on". Can you post a specific PA diff you feel needs sanctioning? As to the rest I am trying to give general advice; how we first interact with editors often sets to tone for the entire conversation. --Errant (chat!) 12:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, Edinbergh - I wrote that on my talk-page, on this utterly "new account" (I don't routinely edit Wikipedia, haven't edited for a long time, and opened-up this account, yes, to edit this topic. Big deal. It wasn't a conspiracy).
-
- I wrote that comment on my talk page after you auto-deleted my responses to you on your talk page twice. And my edits were "wiped clean" with no cause for debate.
- I know enough about Wikipedia to know that if I put-back my edits (which weren't refined, or otherwise "camera ready", i.e. were in-process of being edited), I'd be banned, or whatever it is you do to people who write "unconstructive" edits, these days. Yes, it was childish. I'm human. I react to bad treatment with annoyance. What can I say.
-
- Back to the issues of substance. Mr. Breuer did, in fact, lie - though I stand corrected, given that the principal sources call it "misleading Congress". I *believe* I heard Senator Grassley say, 2-3 times, in the youtube.com video (cited above), "Lanny Breuer lied.... (then giving explanation as to how he lied)", but I could be wrong, so I won't argue that. But I wasn't making a personal attack on a biography against a famous person. I was citing what was published (albeit might have needed some refinement and/or discussion).
-
- What occurred was one of these "three horses of the apocolypse" swoop-down erasures - that can (and do) happen on Wikipedia, when a "certain set of persons" (or a very powerful administrator) has a special-interest in protecting a certain-page, or in presenting a certain POV.
- What I experienced was extreme, and it annoyed me. C'est la vie.
- My point still stands, that Fast and Furious appears to be a "censored topic" on Wikipedia.
- Also, Lanny Breuer's documented "foibles" (to put it politely) on the topic are likewise censored here.
- Thanks for your attention
- Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: addressed content issues on users' talk page. Nobody Ent 12:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- NO, nobody is saying that his personal attacks and sarcasm are ok. Indeed, if someone is going to go off on a snitty rant every time someone disagrees with them, then the internet is perhaps not a good place for them. He's not going to be blocked for those rants (yet), but you've simply been advised on how to better handle those edits in the future that MIGHT lead to less snit in the future, and thus better communication all-round. Of course, everyone would do with a good re-read of WP:CONSENSUS, WP:BLP and WP:BRD :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
What a freakin' mess this section is. Indenting and outdenting... Doc talk 12:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- this is a joke I give up and no longer want anything to with this place itsweeping that ips and new users can act like this against long standing users and is ignoredI ask you draw up a interaction ban so if I choose to come back he will not contact me. It should be noted I ignored him if he hadn't reposted on my page again this would never of happens. In civility at least deserve a warning who care aye. Edinburgh Wanderer 12:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I find this whole discussion to be a tempest-in-a-teapot. Edinbergh was utterly uninterested in talking to me, at the time of edit-disagreement. I was wrong, the edit was deleted, and "that was it". This kind of attitude irked me, and it's too-often seen on Wikipedia. So I got a bit snitty, but that's my right. I know it's not useful to fight-about substance on Wikipedia, not when one is being confronted with that-kind of attitude ("we are deleting your edits, you are wrong, and if you contest, you are even *more* wrong" kind of thing).
What I find fascinating is how-much time Edinbergh is interested in donating to a discussion of my so-called "behavior", rather than the actual substance of the argument (which is encylopedic content). This is an encyclopedia, not a therapy group, nor a parole board. If Edinbergh was this concerned about my moral character (such as reflected on this medium) he might-well have been open to discussion "at all", but he was not. He is very unilateral in his communication, or at least that's my subjective experience with the guy.
Creating two ANI's about me in 24 hours is a bit hyperbolic, IMO. I mean *really*. Turtlewaxingmycar (talk) 12:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- competence is clearly a problem two in 24 hours I don't think so. Also you attacked my job had a go on your talk page and repeatedly in mine why would anyone help you. This is an utter joke no wonder people leave in droves when you get people like this who don't give a shit about the project just furthering there need. Edinburgh Wanderer 12
- 48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- 4 days actually, but agree it's slight overkill. I'd advise both editors to take a step back, calm down, and leave each other well alone, for the good of everyone. GiantSnowman 12:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- No stepping back he started it back up by having another false go on my talk page snowy. He incompetent he says i never told him i did he says i called him a sock puppet i never he says two in 24 hours no that on top of serious incivility. The only reason its back is he started again. Anyway as above I'm wanting noting to do with a place that thinks this is correct.Edinburgh Wanderer 12:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- i apologise that I'm now being uncivil but i just can't take more of this. He needs to leave me alone and just get on with improving the page neutrally. Ok first of all some guy called edinburgh [31] i can't find the diff but in one he had a pop at me working for the emergency services. In talk page he creates section headings like When US Federal officers fart, the aroma of Angel perfume emits. this is his user page They call me unconstructive.
Well, well.
My question. Under the new NDAA, can I be placed in military detention for that?
- "Yes we can".
bitey or what.Edinburgh Wanderer 13:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- sorry I can't find diffs I don't have access to a computer only my phone as working away from home so impossible to do a full look. Edinburgh Wanderer 13:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
No admin action is appropriate at this time; I've made an effort to deescalate by addressing both editors on their talk pages[32][33] Nobody Ent 14:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- And a heads-up to Turtlewaxingmycar: Edinburgh Wanderer has requested that you no longer contact him on his talkpage. If you have reason to contact him, I would recommend doing so through someone else. However, for all intents and purposes, most of your communication would take place on the talkpage of an article, which is permitted - as long as it's civil. Please note that a failure to abide by the request can cause somem needless escalation. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
That's fine. Thanks :) "Not ENT" for the note on my page.
Bwilkins: No problem. I have no issue with this guy. My main problem with him was he deleted something (with a few backups) and didn't want to have 'one word' about it, i.e. deleted my posts (which in all honesty probably weren't the most polite ones I've ever written, lol). I have no idea where the guy got the idea I knew he worked for EMS. How would *I* know that? Anyways, my final suggestion would be that someone please write a "redirect" from a 2-part "Fast and Furious" definition, i.e. the only link to F&F is a movie, and the term "Operation F&F" isn't something the rest of the regular-world (who are not "inside ops") are going to know about. Thanks for the info that this isn't a censored topic. That makes me feel a bit better about the situation. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is resolved. :) 194.230.159.69 (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- there is an infobox on my userpage that states my job very easy to get also gave you guideance to read the BLP article and reinsert once neutral that is the only advise I or anyone could give you other that rewrite it for you which given the post to my talk page I was unlikely to feel inclined to do. So I clearly did speak to you and as one of the reverts on my talk page says replied on tall page of article. Edinburgh Wanderer 18:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have asked him not to post on my talk page but would seriously like an answer to why he said I called him a sockpuppet and why he said I never informed him and why he thought there were two ani in 24 hours. After that it's up to the community if there Are further problems as I will not be keeping an eye on the situation as for me as he appears to have agreed not to post on my talk page that's it over. Edinburgh Wanderer 18:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think dragging this out any further is going to be helpful, do you? He leaves you alone, you leave him alone, both walk away, and that's that. Life, as they say, goes on. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 21:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have asked him not to post on my talk page but would seriously like an answer to why he said I called him a sockpuppet and why he said I never informed him and why he thought there were two ani in 24 hours. After that it's up to the community if there Are further problems as I will not be keeping an eye on the situation as for me as he appears to have agreed not to post on my talk page that's it over. Edinburgh Wanderer 18:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't want to drag it out I'm happy leaving it but really want to know where the sockpuppet comment came from. It must of come from somewhere. I can only think that's what they thought the previous ANI was about which it wasn't. Edinburgh Wanderer 22:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Chad Bannon - sockpuppetry and impersonation of a living person
I reverted edits on Chad Bannon which removed details of the subject's history as a performer in gay porn movies. Although the user who made the edits is User:Chad Bannon, looking at the history of the article shows that there have been a number of single-purpose accounts attempting to make similar edits in the past (User:Doc Unique, User:Doctor Kae, User:Doc Kloepfer). Note that user:Chad Bannon made this edit which includes an email that begins DoctorK. I cannot say more without violating WP:OUTING, but suffice to say that this person is not the subject of the article. Can someone please block the accounts and semi-protect the article? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
i think he needs two be blocked forever Jake.edu (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have just blocked Chad Bannon and revdeleted the edit where he disclosed his email address; personally, I don't think there has been enough recent disruption to warrant protection yet, but I'll defer to the judgement of my fellow admins. Salvio Let's talk about it! 12:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. Maybe someone can skip the intervening steps and block User:Jake.edu, who has managed to find ANI and Jimbo's talk page within his first half-dozen edits? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
User:BOMC, an inexperienced editor in terms of number of edits, insists on inserting Mormon POV cited to non-WP:RS in a long-stable article about the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon. He refuses to discuss the edits with me on the talk page. Here's the last diff.--John Foxe (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Excuse me for butting in here...I've been watching the developments at Three Witnesses for some time, and there is a parallel problem going on at David Whitmer, where User:72Dino, User:ARTEST4ECHO, and I have gotten involved to a limited extent. My impression has been that both User:John Foxe and User:BOMC have behaved poorly, both participating in a drawn-out edit war with little discussion (both trying, perhpas, to make the other do the work on the talk page). BOMC seems to have a mild point of view problem, but compared to John Foxe, it is refreshingly neutral, and I wouldn't describe it as being a pro-"Mormon POV". I see his main shortcoming as being the fact that he doesn't understand the difference between primary sources and secondary sources. That said, the citations he has added have been consistent with the current sourcing of the articles (for instance, citations to Vogel's Early Mormon Documents). BOMC appears to have read all these sources, and have a very good knowledge of them.
- I see BOMC as a new and inexperienced editor who has a lot to offer, and my primary concern here is that I don't want to lose him to Wikipedia because he feels like he can't contribute. I think the easiest solution to this problem would be for John Foxe to tell BOMC specifically which parts of his edits are bad, instead of performing repeated wholesale reversions, because BOMC has actually added a lot of new and very useful information to the articles, including a comprehensive table showing the interviews of David Whitmer listing which sources they can be found in. (Follow this link, scroll to the end of the article, and expand the table to see this.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- As my name is mention above I will put my two cents in. I was back and back and forth myself, tring to decided if I should comment, since I didn't want to stir up a hornets nest. However, in the end I felt that It wasn't fair to of Foxe to complain about BOMC.
- First, in order to prevent any complaint of "Bias" or "hiding", I have already had one wp:edit war with John Foxe. The underlying issue was never completely resolved, but has ended for the time being.
- I have to say I mostly agree with Adjwilley assessment. Both User:John Foxe and User:BOMC have behaved poorly. BOMC may have some mild POV issues, but John Foxe is by far worse.
- I notice this started with a complaint about BOMC refusing "to discuss the edits with me on the talk page". However, I can understand his frustration and his unwillingness to discuss anything with John Foxe. My experience with him have left me felling that same way. No matter what you say, no matter how much you cite something, no matter who or how many people disagree with him, John Foxe will always revert to his POVish edits and refuse to accept a consensus. If he dosn't like what a source say he calles it "non-WP:RS" and no matter how many people come the the consensus that it is WP:RS, he refuses to allow that sources usage.
- What I am saying it, I don't think BOMC should be faulted much for throwing his hand up and refusing to continue fruitless discussions.
- Since I have edit warred with him, I do wish to point out that this in not just my opinion. John Foxe's edits and actions are well known by many editor and even non editors. For example:
- His editing is so outrageous that he was actually in the newspaper about it. Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia
- He was also blocked for a week for Sock puppetry (related to Mormon articles) and here. As a result he was restricted to Reverting more than once (1RR) on any Morman-related (loosely constructed) articles for 2 years.
- He then violated that restriction and was blocked again. here
- He has in fact been blocked 7 times here for Edit Waring.
- I find it ironic that John Foxe came here complaining, when his behavior in this case and in numerous other case is by far worse.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 19:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. The accusation that I inserted Mormon pov is a baseless accusation by John Foxe. Since my time here, he has hindered at every turn and refused to give a single example.BOMC (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- After reading Artest4echo's post above, I should probably also state that I too have been involved in a long, albeit slow, "edit war" with John Foxe, and have had similar experiences with long, fruitless talk page discussions and tendentious editing. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I reverted BOMC's additions because they replaced cited information with unverified information — many of the new citations were to print sources but lacked multiple crucial components needed to identify their sources. I have no opinion on which text is better/worse, but replacing properly cited information with information that others can't verify is never a good thing. Nyttend (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- After reading Artest4echo's post above, I should probably also state that I too have been involved in a long, albeit slow, "edit war" with John Foxe, and have had similar experiences with long, fruitless talk page discussions and tendentious editing. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. The accusation that I inserted Mormon pov is a baseless accusation by John Foxe. Since my time here, he has hindered at every turn and refused to give a single example.BOMC (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Hindi IP vandal back
There was an ANI thread about this some weeks ago, unfortunately I can't remember when. The IP 117.199.72.57 is back again, inserting nearly the same string of Hindi words. The primary target is Indian education related articles. The edits seem to have stopped now, but from experience, I can probably guarantee that he will be back. Just a heads up. Lynch7 17:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
User kiefer.wolfowitz out of control
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Unblocked by the original blocking admin, developing consensus that the block was reasonable. There may still be issues to discuss, but this is really not the place for them. - TexasAndroid (talk) 19:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I have blocked Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs) for an indefinite (not infinite) period of time. A look at his last half-dozen edits will show you why - he's clearly out of control. Since I'm participating in the arbcom case where his edits in question are appearing, it will probably be said I'm "involved", so I'm going to unblock him in a few minutes, and let others decide what to do.--Scott Mac 18:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is hardly new behaviour from Kiefer, but I think that we should allow the Arb case to play out before tackling any further issues that may not have been sorted by the Arb case. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 18:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Revert warring with an ArbCom clerk on an ArbCom page is a very bad thing to do. But IMHO, I would defer to them as to how they wish to deal with those edits in particular. --Rschen7754 18:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunate but good block. Kiefer has had long-running problems with keeping himself under control (or maybe more accurately, keeping his on-wiki behavior such that he appears to be in control), and his proposals on the Civility workshop are clearly intended to be POINTy rather than helpful. Commentary like "feelings of inadequacy can be temporarily alleviated by the frisson of punishing the ruled", used to cast aspersions on the motivation of anyone, administrator or no, is not acceptable, and Kiefer has already undone an Arbcom clerk's redaction of his inflammatory language, which indicates that he has no intention of reining in. Unless and until he can regain his temper and contribute non-POINTily, it's of more benefit to the encyclopedia and its processes to keep Kiefer on the sidelines, though I'm not at all happy to see the block being made by an involved party. Scott, next time maybe ANI first? Or ask an uninvolved admin to comment first? Or something? As a side note, I hesitated to post this comment for fear that I will be attacked by "anti-civility-police" commenters. That, right there? That's a chilling effect, and that's why uncivil editors sometimes tend to go on longer than they should be allowed to. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- As long as Kiefer.Wolfowitz agrees to stop edit-warring with the clerks I would support a quick unblock. His passion is commendable, but we have clerks for a reason (and Salvio has been doing an excellent job keeping things on track there.) 28bytes (talk) 18:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I was writing a reply to Kiefer when I saw he was blocked... Scott, I understand where you're coming from and I can see that you consider this block preventative, but in these cases there are better remedies (clerks can ban people from cases, when they're being disruptive). Personally, I'd support an unblock. Salvio Let's talk about it! 18:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I will unblock and let some sane discussion (hopefully) commence. I hoped this block would be short. I trust others will keep him on a tight leash now. Hopefully, he will desist now.--Scott Mac 18:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
It isn't the revert waring with a clerk, he is posting, in short succession, inflammatory and offensive rants, which can only be designed deliberately to disrupt (i.e. trolling). See [34] [35] and particularly [36] "enforced sterilisation"? [37].--Scott Mac 18:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Good block. I fail to see how the user is being constructive in the page linked. Snowolf How can I help? 18:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, come on! Who doesn't want an ArbCom ruling on the "social fabric of the cosmos"? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, good block. Or reasonable block, rather. I always disliked the term "good block". It's unfortunate that people have to be blocked, but in cases like this it's the most reasonable thing to do. --Conti|✉ 18:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Unblocked The purpose of the block was to end the insanity and get back to constructive discussion. Let's try that now. I've suggested that Kiefer discuss with the arbcom clerks what is, and is not, acceptable and helpful conduct in a difficult case. I suggest those who are uninvolved might help by monitoring things - I will bow out to avoid anything becoming personal (not that it is).--Scott Mac 18:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Salvio and I were discussing this, as my talk page shows. I repeat, that my edit summary invited the moving of the principles to a talk page.
- "Insanity" seems a bit strong, Scott. You also misrepresented what I had written, when you omitted "in Sweden" from involuntary commitment/forced sterilization: Sweden used to sterilize and institutionalize weirdos and deviants on the flimsiest of evidence until 1974---something the community might wish to consider before driving away Malleus, Keepscases, along with Badger Drink et alia.
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Unless there is something specific people want to discuss, it seems a good idea to close this. Leave it to the clerks.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
No, we shoul dnot close it. I thought some of his comments on the pomposity of the current Corps des Administrateurs quite amusing and rather succinct. I do hope we are not seeing a return of the bully boy tactics that the Corps des Administrateurs were so fond of in the past. Giacomo Returned 18:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- No, I happen to agree with the point he was making. But that wasn't the time, place, or way to do it.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL violation and inappropriate behavior by User:Beyond My Ken
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I was shocked and disturbed to see that BMK added this and this to his comment on a now-closed ANI thread. This is a clear violation of WP:CIVIL and about a dozen ArbCom finding of facts. Moreover it simply is inappropriate behavior on the part of BMK. 76.118.180.210 (talk) 19:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- On the other hand, summarily closing and then manually removing the thread wasn't exactly in keeping with how we do things here, either. Rklawton (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Who is User:76.118.180.210 when they're not logged out? [38] Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
It is very unusual for ByK not to be able to immediately lay his hand on a suitable choice of words, perhaps he has been hacked... S.G.(GH) ping! 19:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, I thought the choice of words was completely suitable to the frivolousness of the complaint, and I'm shocked – shocked! – to find that some masked person found them civil and inappropriate. To me, they're just straightforward and frank. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to chase each other around telling tales because of minor expletives. This isn't kindergarten. Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 19:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would recommend just closing this. If 'bitching' is uncivil, it's small beer. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to chase each other around telling tales because of minor expletives. This isn't kindergarten. Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 19:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Imitation of another person. Edits all to that persons BLP. Cannot be that person himself since mistake was made on birth year. SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is vague - diff please. What is the real birth year, and what is your source for that? /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- You should have notified the user of this discussion. I have now done so. I do not see where this user edited the birth year in the article, so I do not understand your claim the editor made a mistake in the birth year. -- Donald Albury 01:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Unblock request by Cculber007 (talk · contribs · count)
This user has requested unblocking via unblock-en-l. We have decided to allow the community to discuss whether this request should be granted and under what terms to do so. If you are interested, please discuss on the user's talk page (not here). Thanks. --Chris (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Abusive emails from user:Taninao0126
I have reverted some BLP violations and copyvio images from the article Jennifer O'Neill (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) added by Taninao0126 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and now she has taken to writing threatening and abusive emails to me via the wikipedia email service. I can forward these emails to any interested admin. I request some help. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to forward them to me, I'll have a look; I trust you, but I want to make sure I know what I'd be revoking e-mail for. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)