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::::Did I miss something? Where did he insult you? --<small><span style="border:1px solid orange;background:#A6D785"><font size="1" color="9E0508">[[User:AKMask| ۩ ]]</font></span></small><font color="#B13E0F"><strong>M</strong></font><font color="#A9A9A9">[[User talk:AKMask|ask]]</font> 07:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
::::Did I miss something? Where did he insult you? --<small><span style="border:1px solid orange;background:#A6D785"><font size="1" color="9E0508">[[User:AKMask| ۩ ]]</font></span></small><font color="#B13E0F"><strong>M</strong></font><font color="#A9A9A9">[[User talk:AKMask|ask]]</font> 07:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Administrator: Philip Baird Shearer == |
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I have received a message on my [[User talk:Gavin.collins#Descriptive & segmented article titles|talk page]] from the administrator [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]], which is basically a "cease and desist" notice backed up a threat to block over the issue of the archiving of what was an on going discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Descriptive & segmented article titles]]. I do not believe this message to represent an appropriate use of admin powers, and I don't think gagging a discussion is any way appropriate. If Philip has an objection to the discussion, he is free to say so, and ideally spell out why he objects. Alternatively, he can drop out of the discussion at any time. What is not appropriate is to halt, impede or generally inhibit constructive and detailed discussions about complex issues just because he can. As an ordinary editor, I do not think low level bullying of this nature is acceptable anywhere, let alone on Wikipedia. --[[User:Gavin.collins|Gavin Collins]] ([[User talk:Gavin.collins#top|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gavin.collins|contribs)]] 07:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
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Numerous systematic removal of Media Matters citations
LegitimateAndEvenCompelling has been systematically removing citations to Media Matters (a media watchdog organization) from multiple (seemingly random) articles, and replacing them with citation needed tags. (See: [1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17] and many more too numerous to list.) He continues to do so even after several users have pointed out that his interpretation of policy on this issue is incorrect, and that he should stop. (e.g. [18], [19], [20].)
LegitimateAndEvenCompelling argues that Media Matters is not a reliable source, and that the articles linked to violate WP:LINKVIO. Media Matters has been discussed on WP:RS/N several times (e.g. [21][22], [23] are the last 3 discussions), and the conclusion is that while it may be a partisan news organization, but it is still a reliable source, and can be cited the same way as other partisan sources, like for example, Fox News. Also, a reading of the policy 'Linking to copyrighted works' shows that it does not apply, as WP:LINKVIO forbids the linking to external Web sites that carry a work in violation of the creator's copyright. Media Matters is a well known, established organization in the US that carries video excerpts in accordance with 'fair use' laws, if they were systematically violating copyright law, it would have been sued by now. Also, the weblink can be removed if it violates WP:LINKVIO, but the reference itself should be retained.
LegitimateAndEvenCompelling has been polite about it, but he has been ignoring opposition to his systematic actions, and reverting people who undo his removal of these citations, demanding that those who oppose his actions justify themselves on the talk page of the respective articles. (e.g. [24], [25], [26].)
I stumbled across his actions when he removed this perfectly good citation [27] from an article I helped create, and reverted me when I undid his removal.
What I would like to see is LegitimateAndEvenCompelling agreeing to stop removal of links to Media Matters, and stop reverting people who undo his removals. Finally, if consensus can be reached that Media Matters is a reliable source, I would like him to undo all his removals, as he has created a huge amount of cleanup work for people to do (but this may be asking a bit much). --LK (talk) 01:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- MMFA is good for a secondary source for things already covered by the MSM. After reviewing the edits above, I would question the inclusion of a lot of the material. That being said, simply deleting MMFA while doing nothing with content is indeed disruptive and serves no purpose. This needs to stop. Soxwon (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Media Matters is extensively used by non-partisan information outlets like NPR (indeed, their On The Media show frequently uses them). They are with out a doubt a WP:RS. Removing them whole sale and placing citation needed tags is disruptive and pointy -- ۩ Mask 02:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Media Matters for America is an openly partisan source that is unfortunately used in place of journalistic sources more frequently that it proper. That being said, I agree that simply removing the citations with no apparent effort to locate other sources or otherwise mitigate the holes left by the removal is disruptive. --Allen3 talk 02:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- LK's claims are inaccurate. I have responded here to his efforts to keep an MMfA ref that disparages someone as a means to support the claim that people burn money. As to my other MMfA, almost none of them have been reverted because they are proper. Further, I do not remove all MMfA refs. Indeed in one case I even improved the ref by adding an author. I hope people will support me in applying Wikipedia policy and perhaps join me.
- As to removing the refs and adding Citation tags, that is not inherently evil. Am I supposed to buy a subscription to Lexis/Nexis and source everything? Am I not allowed to comply with Wiki policy? The alternative is to remove the ref and the associated text. I see people do that and I don't like that. I choose not to do that. My purpose is not to eliminate things in the text, rather it is to ensure proper RSs are used.--LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh yes, I am aware that people are using the Citation tags to properly source the information. In one case, for example, I can't put my finger on it, someone added a NYT ref where I had removed the MMfA ref. So the Citation tag is working exactly as it was designed to work. Wikipedia works to allow people to work together to improve articles. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your appeal to policy is undermined by the fact that your interpretation of policy has been challenged. Your appeal for cooperation is undermined by your use of reverts. Even if you are 100% sure that you're right, you should still be able to step back and understand these problems. Melchoir (talk) 04:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- The challenges made are based on either ad hominem argument or on the irrelevant claim that other MMfA refs have been found to be RSs. No one has yet gone to the specific context as required by RS.
- As to my use of reverts, you are joking, right? I make an edit and specify exactly why I made the edit and include specific Wiki rules, a very few revert me with either no comment or a comment that has nothing to do with the RS/LINKVIO concerns, so I revert that, and suddenly I'm the bad guy for reverting a revert? Where's the WP:AGF in that?
- I totally understand that some people are opposed to removing MMfA refs. But WP:RS is what necessitates the removals, not me. The only reason why my ensuring compliance with WP:RS is problematic to some is that I have applied the policy on numerous pages. Nevermind that MMfA refs in the hundreds are used all over Wikipedia inappropriately, as Allen3 generally agreed above. Suddenly I'm the bad guy for making a small dent in the removal of the non-RSs.
- Look at the specific page about which LK complained, Burning money. Look in Talk. Look at the discussion I am having there. Tell me specifically why the MMfA ref on that page is a RS. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
You seem to have dedicated a large part of your time over the last 2 months to removing MMfa sourcing, I suggest that you self revert and argue each removal in turn. You have been told on numerous occasions that your interpretation of WP:RS seems to be counter the consensus interpretation, notably around May 3rd. You could have saved yourself alot of time and effort if you had started by searching through the WP:RSN archives. They are, at the very least, a source which can be used with particular attribution. Unomi (talk) 06:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wetman, on the page you reverted, explain how MMfA is a reliable source for Institute for Energy Research funding coming from the Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation. Don't just ignore WP:AGF. Is MMfA a RS for anything and everything? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unomi, I am acting in compliance with Wiki policy. Most of my edits have not been reverted, almost all, that is. Why? Likely because the other editors agreed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Even though everyone who has commented on this thread agrees that his actions are inappropriate, LegitimateAndEvenCompelling continues to remove Media Matters citations, and to argue with and revert users who disagree with those removals. A short preventive block might be in order. LK (talk) 07:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- One guy, Badger_Drink, is reverted all my edits claiming it is "vandalism".
- And LK, to this point people are saying MMfA is generally a RS but no one, not a single person, has addressed the specific issues on any page. It's as if they know they have no legitimate substantive argument so they say things ad hominem in nature like "A short preventive block might be in order."
- I am beginning to sense that the MMfA supporters care more about MMfA than about WP:RS or WP:LINKVIO.
- I will need to get help with this as restoring non-WP:RS en masse is a serious problem. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Another editor has just reverted Badger Drink's restoration of an MMfA ref saying, "rmv disputed statement - only "source" was a copy of the cnn show, posted on some other site, with no additional commentary. does no-one understand notability anymore? So I see WP:NOTE may be another relevant issue as edits like this one are all over Wikipedia. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- As a preventative measure User:Badger Drink should be blocked for disruption - that user has mass reverted all the removals of MM as a source, but has failed to examine each case, leaving some very poor "sourcing" in this encyclopedia. BDs behaviour is nothing more than edit warring that will eventually have to be undone. Weakopedia (talk) 09:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- As a proactive measure, you should soak your head. If a stopped clock was right twice in a day, we don't start getting in a self-righteous huff over a clockmaker fixing it. That's not to say the edits in question by LaEC were correct, either - see below. Badger Drink (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Self-application of WP:TROUT
Just want to chime in with a vicious self-scolding. Badger, edit summaries like this are not helpful. Apologies to any and all who took offense. Badger Drink (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I just loooked at your latest contribution, which was rubbish.[28] If you don't understand basic policy you certainly shouldn't be going on any ill-advised reversion crusades. I've removed the passage you tried so hard to keep in, because it is poorly sourced. Weakopedia (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Are you fucking kidding me? Wikipedia statement which you removed: "Arthur Laffer made [a statement] on CNN". Media Matters link: "Economist Laffer [makes same statement] on CNN", complete with fucking video of him fucking saying it on fucking CNN! Honestly now, you're being beyond tendentious. Badger Drink (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I just looked at your second last contribution, which was rubbish.[29] You warred to have this "source" remain despite it not supporting the statement it is there to support. Weakopedia (talk) 08:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Funny you, of all participants in this discussion, should use the word "rubbish"... Badger Drink (talk) 09:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that is the best you can resort to, then you shouldn't be editing here, full stop. While you are adding non BLP compliant material to BLPs, you will be reverted automatically. Good day. Weakopedia (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Taking the "shotgun approach" to discussion in the hopes something will stick - yawn. Are you really this stupid, or do you just assume that everyone else is too stupid to see your edits here for what they are? Anyway, let me know how the air on that lofty mountain of yours is. Badger Drink (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
LegitimateAndEvenCompelling's participation at WP:RS/N
I have just realized that LegitimateAndEvenCompelling knew full well that he was systematically removing reliable sources against the consensus at WP:RS/N. As these links show,[30],[31],[32],[33] he participated in many of the discussions about Media Matters at WP:RS/N, and so knew that consensus was against him. And yet he decided to systematically remove Media Matters citations even against consensus. This makes his behavior much less acceptable than I had previously thought it to be. I strongly support an indefinite block unless he agrees to reverse all his removals of these citations, and to not remove Media Matters citations in the future. LK (talk) 13:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...he participated in many of the discussions about Media Matters at WP:RS/N, and so knew that consensus was against him.
- What are you characterizing as "Consensus" from those RS/N discussion? JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- The only concensus that I ever see from those discussions is a concensus from those in favor of MMfA saying that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid reason to treat MRC/Newsbusters and MMfA as two sides of the same coin. Until ideological editors agree that they should and must be treated equally these type of partisan battles will NEVER end. As long as one side feels that the other sides is getting preferential treatment there will continue to be edit wars. Unfortunately I don't see any give on the MMfA side. Arzel (talk) 15:40, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've just read through the 3 (the 4th is a repeat of the 1st) diffs cited by LK, above. I see no consensus. If I can draw a mood from them considered as a whole, it is this: Cite MMfA's opinion rarely, only if their opinion is somehow relevant to the article. Cite them for facts only if the original source is unavailable. I, of course, haven't looked at each of LaEC's edits but I've examined quite a few including this sequence:
- The only concensus that I ever see from those discussions is a concensus from those in favor of MMfA saying that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid reason to treat MRC/Newsbusters and MMfA as two sides of the same coin. Until ideological editors agree that they should and must be treated equally these type of partisan battles will NEVER end. As long as one side feels that the other sides is getting preferential treatment there will continue to be edit wars. Unfortunately I don't see any give on the MMfA side. Arzel (talk) 15:40, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- [34] American Family Association 13 June 2009
- [35] American Family Association 11 March 2010
- [36] American Family Association 11 March 2010
- [37] American Family Association 6 April 2010
- [38] American Family Association 6 April 2010
- [39] American Family Association 25 May 2010
- [40] American Family Association 27 May 2010
Proposed indefinite block of User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling
It's clear that LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk · contribs) is engaging in disruptive editing through mass removal of citations without discussion and against consensus. This constitutes tendentious editing, disruptive cite-tagging and a rejection of community input, all classic signs of disruptive editing. He has continued to do so even after this discussion began. He has a lengthy history of previous blocks, including one indefinite block for legal threats (since rescinded). Given this continuous and lengthy pattern of disruptive behaviour, it's clear that LegitimateAndEvenCompelling hasn't learned anything from his previous blocks. I therefore propose an indefinite block of this editor. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Additional note: Since it seems to have caused some confusion, please note that I'm proposing an indefinite block here, not an infinite one. If LegitimateAndEvenCompelling is willing to agree not to continue such actions, he should be allowed to continue editing, but without such an assurance a block becomes necessary as a preventative measure. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Reject Examination of the history shows many articles where MediaMatters was being used inappropriately. Those who are blindly reverting all removals of MM as a source should be blocked, as they are in many cases simply reintroducing inadequate, or even misrepresentative sourcing to articles, just to make a point. Weakopedia (talk) 09:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support Bold>Revert>Discuss doesn't work if the person being bold refuses to actually discuss. The previous discussions where consensus in re: MMfA was formed were provided to LaEC, who chose instead to ignore it and insist that somehow they were right in the face of a multitude of editors suggesting the exact opposite. Indefinite need not necessarily be infinite, but given LaEC's past history, I would suggest that he would truly need to display that he understands that he went about this in entirely the wrong fashion and is prepared to make a serious endeavour to mend his ways before the block is lifted. Badger Drink (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support or possibly Restrict. If LaeC had really been removing dubious sources from articles, then in examples like CIA leak scandal timeline he would also have removed all the references to WorldNetDaily, a source from the other side of the political spectrum that at RS/N has repeatedly been described as even more unreliable than MMfA. But he left all of those in. Thus, it has to be described as nothing more than political POV-pushing. Black Kite (t) (c) 09:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- ...he would also have removed all the references to WorldNetDaily, a source from the other side of the political spectrum that at RS/N has repeatedly been described as even more unreliable than MMfA.
- I don't recall that specific descriptive being used (do you have a quote or two?) nor your paraphrase summary of recent RS/N discussions related to World Net Daily. Being that as it may, MMfA is being recognized (finally I might add) for what it is...and its RS status, unfettered by any other consideration, appears to now be history in Wikipedia. MMfA is a hyper-partisan source and its ubiquitous presence in this Wikipedia medium should give ANYONE pause. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- How do you reach that conclusion? Mainstream media outlets routinely source or credit MMfA in their stories. A google news search will show you recent items by CBS, NY Times, Boston Globe, NY Dailyt times - all referencing MMfA. Please see WP:YESPOV and understand that we are to reflect what might seem to you the apparent liberal bias of reality. Unomi (talk) 22:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your argument is misplaced. In the examples you cite, substantive third-party sourcing can validate MMfA content just as RS third-party can validate WND, MRC, etc etc. But you place the NPOV cart before the WP:V/WP:UNDUE horse. NPOV relates to the balanced presentation of content, not to the POV of the source itself (which you appear to wrongly suggest I'm asserting). Like all hyper-partisan content from either wing, reliable third-party sourcing is mandated by WP:V/WP:UNDUE.JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- When you take in to use language like 'hyper-partisan' I was compelled to believe that you were arguing from the context of POV. You are making a false equivalence between MMfA and WND/MRC on the basis of your notion that they are both and equally hyper-partisan. News outlets routinely reference MMfA, this is not the case with the others you mention. From the ES' of LaEC in his numerous (~50+) removals he argued from the position of an imperfect grasp of WP:RS and how MMfA can in fact be used - albeit with particular attribution in contentious areas subject to editor discretion. He had been informed of this months ago, but continued with IDHT removals, that is why we are here. Unomi (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- The MRC is also referenced by news outlets. It's a no-brainer that the left-leaning news outlets are going to reference MMfA more often than they reference the MRC. Drrll (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are making a false equivalence between MMfA and WND/MRC on the basis of your notion that they are both and equally hyper-partisan.
- Your opinion is simply not shared anymore by generally half of the participants in the most recent RS/N's on the subject. JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could you clarify what you mean by that? Unomi (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly not to the satisfaction of one who apparently holds MMfA as a breed apart from the hyper-partisan crowd. But you could start here.. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I see that you misunderstood what I meant then, it is not a matter of their perceived political leanings, they could be equidistant from the center as perfectly as one could want, and they would still not be equivalent, that very archive spells that out with the citations in mainstream sources, the Columbia Review of Journalism article and the quality of the editors involved in MMaF and MRC respectively. Unomi (talk) 05:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly not to the satisfaction of one who apparently holds MMfA as a breed apart from the hyper-partisan crowd. But you could start here.. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could you clarify what you mean by that? Unomi (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- The MRC is also referenced by news outlets. It's a no-brainer that the left-leaning news outlets are going to reference MMfA more often than they reference the MRC. Drrll (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- When you take in to use language like 'hyper-partisan' I was compelled to believe that you were arguing from the context of POV. You are making a false equivalence between MMfA and WND/MRC on the basis of your notion that they are both and equally hyper-partisan. News outlets routinely reference MMfA, this is not the case with the others you mention. From the ES' of LaEC in his numerous (~50+) removals he argued from the position of an imperfect grasp of WP:RS and how MMfA can in fact be used - albeit with particular attribution in contentious areas subject to editor discretion. He had been informed of this months ago, but continued with IDHT removals, that is why we are here. Unomi (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your argument is misplaced. In the examples you cite, substantive third-party sourcing can validate MMfA content just as RS third-party can validate WND, MRC, etc etc. But you place the NPOV cart before the WP:V/WP:UNDUE horse. NPOV relates to the balanced presentation of content, not to the POV of the source itself (which you appear to wrongly suggest I'm asserting). Like all hyper-partisan content from either wing, reliable third-party sourcing is mandated by WP:V/WP:UNDUE.JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- How do you reach that conclusion? Mainstream media outlets routinely source or credit MMfA in their stories. A google news search will show you recent items by CBS, NY Times, Boston Globe, NY Dailyt times - all referencing MMfA. Please see WP:YESPOV and understand that we are to reflect what might seem to you the apparent liberal bias of reality. Unomi (talk) 22:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support: Per Black Kite...can't say it any better. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:02, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support: Per Black Kite and Badger Drink, not necessarily infinite, but we need to break through the IDHT once and for all. Unomi (talk) 10:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose: LaeC is looking for instances where MMfA is used inappropriately, and finding them. In some, few. instances, other editors disagree. Nothing wrong with any of that. LaeC does need to be admonished for ignoring WP:BRD. That's all. Anything else is an overreaction and smacks of "I don't like you." Anthony (talk) 10:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose: ChrisO, how far back in history do you want to go to skewer me? Don't people change? Have I done anything recently/currently to deserve a legitimate block, other than people doing what you are attempting to do, namely, use procedural means to avoid substantive discussion? Not a single person supporting the block has ever, not once, addressed any substantive issue relating to this matter. Indeed, before the en masse reverts made with ad hominem history comments without substance, most editors left my edits in place. The community accepted them. Look, here is the one and only instance where a person actually discussed substantive issues with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Burning_money#Media_matters and when I responded, he politely bowed out. Blocking me will not solve the problem, but I will admit it will probably make you feel really good. What will solve the problem is the proper application of WP:RS, not the blocking of the person applying it. And no one told me this was going on here? What a disgrace. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 10:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- You were informed of this AN/I thread here and you've already participated in it, so you have nothing to complain about on that score. If you believe that MMFA is generally not a reliable source then you need to raise that at WP:RSN, not unilaterally attempt to purge it from Wikipedia against the complaints of other editors. You've caused a substantial amount of disruption and damage in the meantime, and that needs to stop. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Right, but I was not informed of this effort to block me, indefinitely, no less. It was you who said on my Talk page, "Please cease mass-removing citations without discussion. You are likely to find yourself being blocked if you continue. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)" By that time I had stopped. Yet here you are yourself seeking to blocking me indefinitely despite your very own words! What shameful behavior! Are you proud of your actions?
- Only 13 minutes after leaving me your message, you moved to indefinitely block me. 09:24, 25 July 2010 ChrisO (talk | contribs) (307,425 bytes) (→Numerous systematic removal of Media Matters citations: - propose indefinite block of User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling) (undo) How many "mass-removing citations without discussions" could I cease doing in 13 minutes??
- This is a serious witch hunt. Thanks, ChrisO, for helping to evidence it so well. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Let me add this. I see Black Kite has said I was POV pushing. That is not true. Black Kite asked me that on my Talk page. I guess he did not wait for an answer. (Now I see he make his non-WP:AGF statement here before asking me for clarification on my Talk page!) But my answer shows I was not POV pushing (as if compliance with WP:RS could ever be POV pushing). --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 10:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well no - I said that removing sources that promote a particular POV will be seen as POV-pushing, which it does. I appreciate your explanation on your talkpage, though, and given that I have edited my comment above to include "Restrict". Black Kite (t) (c) 11:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- If the motivation for the removals really was not to push a POV, the much less reliable WorldNetDaily refs should have been removed first. The prima facie evidence shows a systematic biased removal of sources from one end of the political spectrum. I suggest that if LegitimateAndEvenCompelling wants to show his 'good faith', he should immediately stop removing MMfA refs and start removing the much less reliable WorldNetDaily refs; at least until he has removed as many WorldNetDaily refs as the number of MMfA refs he has removed. LK (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well no - I said that removing sources that promote a particular POV will be seen as POV-pushing, which it does. I appreciate your explanation on your talkpage, though, and given that I have edited my comment above to include "Restrict". Black Kite (t) (c) 11:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support See Black Kite above for a major plank of evidence. Clearly this guy does not have a clue as to the difference between a source "having a POV" and a source being basically reliable, and is blanket removing a good source of information which has a good history of quality, albeit a source which focuses on exposing problems in the right wing of the US. Weakopedia's comment (as of now) lacks substance and can therefore be discounted; same applies to Anthonychole's comment. Legitimate's own argument shown in the talk page section he references (permalink) is way off: for example, one of his arguments is that ". "E.H.H." Does that sound reliable to anyone here? MMfA articles do include full names of authors sometimes", ignoring the fact that most sources do not always include authors, and sources like the The Economist (which I consider overrated) never do. He argues that since WP:POORSRC (who keeps randomly changing these shortcuts??) includes the words "promotional in nature" and MMfA seems promotional, it is automatically questionable. Wow. He also seems to somehow think that because MMfA irrefutably displays its evidence in actual clips of video, it is less reliable. Wow, just wow. Such a tortured, ludicrous argument needs to be stopped. We should work on cleaning up this mess and restoring these sources as well. II | (t - c) 11:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support with caveat - if LAEC subsequently agrees not to engage in such behaviour, he can have another chance. It is clear that his behaviour in removing MMfA citations has been disruptive; deleting citations to what is widely enough considered a reliable source can hardly be otherwise. But as he himself noted at RSN on 16 July, " I admit MMfA is reliable for things about itself or incidents in which it has been directly involved, and I also admit its content can be useful for identifying actual reliable sources, particularly in cases where it provides links to such sources." [emphasis added] In this case, a non-disruptive approach would at minimum put the MMfA link on the talk page with an explanation, or replace it with the sources linked to by MMfA. Rd232 talk 11:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I do not see putting these citations on the talk page as an acceptable compromise, heh, and it is difficult to constantly watch over someone this extreme; also if he keeps repeating himself and calling it "discussion" while redoing the edit it is basically impossible to stop him. Perhaps a good start would be for him to self-revert his blanket removals. Replacing these with primary sources of the particular footage is also not the answer. II | (t - c) 12:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose The actions being discussed here are clearly disruptive, but an indefinite block is an overreaction. -- Ed (Edgar181) 11:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of WP:BRD until now. I was aware of WP:3RR, so 2 reverts was my max. Now I suppose it'll just be, what, 0 reverts. And Anthony is right, it would be unfair to be blocked indef for not being aware of BRD, while pursuing RS, no less. It is also unfair that I should get blocked and no one ever (except one now) responds substantively to the RS issues at hand on the various pages. So yes, Rd232, I agree to abide by WP:BRD. And I like your Talk page idea. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- The only substantive complaint about this editor is ignoring (which turned out to be ignorance of) WP:BRD. They now know about the policy, and undertake to follow it. Can this be closed now? Anthony (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- BRD is an essay, not policy. BRD may be at times be advisable, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate for removing what is widely seen as a reliable source, without replacing it with a better one or at least moving it to the talk page. BRD is not the issue. Rd232 talk 12:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I thought they were only removing instances where it was not supporting the content, or not appropriate for some other reason. As for not replacing it with something appropriate, is it a policy violation to neglect that and just replace with "citation needed?" Anthony (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- BRD is an essay, not policy. BRD may be at times be advisable, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate for removing what is widely seen as a reliable source, without replacing it with a better one or at least moving it to the talk page. BRD is not the issue. Rd232 talk 12:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support a longish block and possibly a topic ban/editing restriction of some kind. The editor has been engaged in a clear and persistent pattern of POV pushing and tendentious editing. There are no excuses and no justification for that. An indef block may be a little harsh but acceptabe under the circumstances. Nsk92 (talk) 12:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh. Has that case (POV pushing and tendentious editing) been demonstrated somewhere? Or can you elaborate on that, with diff's maybe? (I don't want to defend a troublemaker who won't benefit from counseling - but that hasn't been demonstrated in this thread.) Anthony (talk) 12:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC) Updated 12:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Weak Support or Topic Ban - It is possible to argue that MMfA is not a reliable source, but that also means that Fox News and WorldNetDaily sure as shit ain't reliable sources either and should be removed from the site using napalm and agent orange. All news is canned gossip, anyway, and is either sold for a profit or proselytized for an agenda. Until more appropriate sources are found, MMfA, Fox, and WND will have to do. There is a thing in American law called "fair use," which Media Matters follows, which means that their videos do not violate WP:LINKVIO. All the articles I've seen either present a video, or present transcripts with some context. LegAEC seems to be sorta repentant, if only because of 3rr and now the threat of a block (not so much because of acknowledging any mistakes, so I guess repentant isn't the right word but compliant). Ian.thomson (talk) 12:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, Fox news is not the appropriate ideological opponent you are seeking; it's the Media Research Center. Fox News is the conservative equivalent of MSNBC, not MMFA.
- There is little difference between the left-wing PoV pushing from MMFA and the right-wing POV pushing from MRC, and in a previous discussion on the RS/N, I suggested that neither should be allowed, because the egregious partisan spin both sources place on anything that appears on either site.
- As for WND, nobody should be using it as a citation for anything, anywhere on Wikipedia, unless they are citing it as an opinion from WND or one of its contributors. Horologium (talk) 13:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose at this time. There needs to be a definitive consensus on the suitability of hyper-partisan "media watchdog" sources, including MMfA, FAIR, MRC, and AIM. I would support an RFC on the topic, but I don't think focusing on a single user is appropriate for this subject. Horologium (talk) 13:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that an RFC is a good idea, but this isn't about whether MMfA is a suitable source - it's about whether a single editor should make that determination himself and single-handedly attempt to purge Wikipedia of that source, against the opposition of other editors. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- LAEC has tacitly agreed to stop removing links to MMfA. I would support blocking him again if he continues if there is an RFC initiated on the issue. Without an RFC, I don't see a consensus at all, so a block would be inappropriate because it becomes an issue of editorial content, unless there is an edit war. When another editor with a different view follows an editor reverting every edit, there is another issue (wikihounding) which is equally disruptive, and needs to stop. Horologium (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that an RFC is a good idea, but this isn't about whether MMfA is a suitable source - it's about whether a single editor should make that determination himself and single-handedly attempt to purge Wikipedia of that source, against the opposition of other editors. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support Unless User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling agrees to undo all of his removals. If he really believes that those citations are bad, someone else will surely remove them. Also, he should agree not to remove Media Matters citations in the future. If he comes across a bad citation, he should instead raise the issue on the talk page for someone else to deal with. LK (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose MMfA is almost univerisaly used for political purposes to promote a specific point of view. Its use should be limited to an extension of existing secondary sourcing and not a as a primary source, especially if MMfA is trying to establich a fact. MRC should be treated as the same way. To punish LAEC for attempting to maintain a basic pillar of WP is absurd to say the least. One only has to ask, do you want WP to be a better more neutral place? Arzel (talk) 13:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I first noticed LegitimateAndEvenCompelling's systematic actions when he removed a citation in the Burning money article from this statement "people have publicly burned small amounts of money for political protests that were picked up by the media — Living Things at South by Southwest,[17] Larry Kudlow on The Call[18]". The removed reference [18] leads to a short article on Kudlow burning a dollar bill on The Call, with a video excerpt of the act. How is this 'used for political purposes to promote a specific point of view'? How is neutrality on Wikipedia improved by this removal? LK (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- The only reason MMfA or anyone else commented on that incident is because they are trying to make a political point against Kudlow breaking the law given his apparent attempt to run against a liberal politician in the near future. MMfA could care less about the actual act of someone burning a dollar bill, they are just trying to point out a conservative breaking the letter of the law which will undoubtably be used against Kudlow in the future as political fodder. Now, granted this is a rather benign incident, but the intent is clear from MMfA when you come to grip with reality and admit that they, just like MRC, are political animals. The question I ask myself, is, "Is this editor removing partisan sourcing from one ideology and inserting partisan sourcing from another ideology?" If the anser is Yes, then they are in violation of several WP policies. If they are simply removing partisan sourcing which appears to be in violation of NPOV then they are upholding the fundamental principles of WP. You have to admit, the people putting MMfA in as a source to begin with are very likely to partisan editors to start. LegitCompelling is simply trying to go around and clean up the crap. Arzel (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps even more importantly, did the sourcing for the content removed rise to satisfy WP:UNDUE sourcing or was it just coatracking of MMfA opinion? JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. This particular incident didn't warrant removal. It isn't a coatraking of MMfA opinion. The only questionable aspect is that the sourcing is being used in conjunction with a fact (ie that their is no apparent consiquence), when the conjuntion is that this would be MMfA opinion. ehh, boarderline and technical. I did some searching and there isn't much else, so I would assume that burning a dollar bill on live tv probably won't ever get you in trouble. I did look at some of the others that LAEC removed and in general they are some longstanding wars regarding the blur between opinion and fact largely criticism of conservative figures which didn't recieve much press outside of the blogs. Those clearly should be removed, but it is usually a difficult endevour because of the political nature of WP, at the very least they should be expressly attributed as opinon of MMfA. Arzel (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose If you would indefinitely block LAEC, then you would need to indefinitely block other editors who regularly and consistently remove references from the Media Research Center. I lean toward excluding both sources, but there needs to be a consistent WP policy/guideline on this. In the case where this question was widely discussed on the RSN, using RfCs, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, Media Research Center, Media Matters for America, Newsbusters, the consensus was consistency in application of both sources, and another RfC there leaned against use of MMfA entirely. Because of the results there, the lack of a policy/guideline on the use of such ideologically-charged sources, and because of the regular and consistent removal of MRC sources by other editors, I strongly oppose an indefinite block on LAEC. As someone else has noted, there is going to be continued warfare on this front unless a policy, guideline, or decisive RSN ruling has been made to treat these two sources consistently. Drrll (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is not a good argument, per WP:OTHERSTUFF, just because there are other people doing unacceptable things, does not mean that we have to accept this one person doing unacceptable things. LK (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- So I take it that you would support indefinitely blocking--and will start ANI items seeking to indefinitely block--those who regularly remove references to the Media Research Center? Or does that not matter? Drrll (talk) 15:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose Treatment of MMfA as something more than a hyper-partisan source is a "sacred cow consensus" that no longer stands up to RS/N scrutiny. Just like its peers (Media Research Center, Fairness and Accuracy In Media, Newsbusters etc. etc.), WP:UNDUE should require third-party RS to support any content solely attributable to MMfA. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - indef block for a first time offense? Seriously? He has been warned, he is responding to this discussion, he has been civil, and he seems willing to learn how his actions were inappropriate and adjust his behavior accordingly. He has a few blocks in his bast for edit warring, but most are in 2007 and he seems to have learned from those experiences. At most an appropriate length block (3 days to a week) IF he continued removing the MMfA stuff before a discussion at WP:RSN confirms it is non-reliable. Otherwise, blocks supposedly aren't punitive but preventative and thus far, the disruption appears to have stopped. -- AnmaFinotera (talk ~ contribs) 16:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support per Black Kite. There's far too many one-sided ideologues who game the rules on Wikipedia. Strong action against them would hopefully curb this sort of behavior. Gamaliel (talk) 16:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I could make an argument that such a statement and other actions by you Gamaliel would get you blocked by this rule. Ideologues exist on both sides, it's a part of the site, deal with it. Soxwon (talk) 19:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose – An indefinite block is taking this too far. How about a ban from removing references from the Media Research Center, enforceable by blocks if necessary? The use of MMfA and MRC sources has already been decided on elsewhere. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 16:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't know that. Can you please supply the diff? Anthony (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose give him a WP:WHALE, but i have seen enough good work out him to think it would be a waste to indef. I may support a Topic Ban from Editing Citations and Artilces closesly linked with MMFA Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support per Black Kite. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support per diffs provided by Black Kite. Note that it would be indef, not permanent, and lifted after assurances by LaEC that he would cease disruption. -- ۩ Mask 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
-
- I didn't need to. The example I gave, and many other of LaeC's edits, show clearly the removal of one source whilst not removing those referring to WND, right-wing blogs, etc. Thus his claim of removing unreliable sources is clearly false. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, your differences don't show much. If LAEC was using the linksearch function to find MMFA links (as I have done for Free Republic and Democratic Underground links), it shows that he was looking for links from that source, not links from other, even less reliable sources. When I go on one of my most populated->most populous tears (see my contribution history for examples) I don't look for other problems, and when people go through with AWB and fix specific issues, they will overlook things other than the specific issue on which they are working. It doesn't mean that they are shitty editors, and it doesn't mean that they have a partisan agenda, it means that they are focused on a single task. Horologium (talk) 23:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? - I haven't reviewed the consensus on this, but assuming consensus is clear that MM references shouldn't be removed as such, and/or that LAEC is persistently overstepping the bounds, can't we just make that consensus clear for the record and ask LAEC to honor it? No need to get any broader than that, and it's only a blockworthy thing if they get that firm message and won't abide by it. I know that an indef. block could be overturned if they only make that promise, but wouldn't it be simpler and less disruptive on all sides to take the administrative sanction step out, and go immediately to the end result? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I don't see that failure to remove other, more unreliable, references is a reasonable argument here. Either there's consensus or not to remove MMfA links, and either LAEC is being disruptive or not doing so. Nobody has an obligation to to anything around here, so I don't think it's fair or practical for anyone accused of POV disruption to show good faith by doing the same edits for the other side as well. It's not as if this is a single-purpose POV editor, they're just caught up in this particular issue at this time. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody has any obligation to do anything here ... except not be disruptive. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I don't see that failure to remove other, more unreliable, references is a reasonable argument here. Either there's consensus or not to remove MMfA links, and either LAEC is being disruptive or not doing so. Nobody has an obligation to to anything around here, so I don't think it's fair or practical for anyone accused of POV disruption to show good faith by doing the same edits for the other side as well. It's not as if this is a single-purpose POV editor, they're just caught up in this particular issue at this time. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose LAEC's actions are mostly correct in this matter. Jtrainor (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per AmnaFinotera. If he's here, discussing the appropriateness of the edits, and has ceased making such edits for the duration of this discussion, there's no ongoing disruption to be solved by such a block. Blocks are not punitive; they're to protect the encyclopedia from harm. When and if LAEC disregards an established consensus or becomes incivil in presenting his viewpoint, then we can appropriately talk about disruptive editing. Jclemens (talk) 02:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is the last post by this user, it does not seem to indicate that he recognizes that there is an established consensus. Your suggestion to lay off MMfA refs sounds like you are asking me to self-censor. .. Now I have a demand for you, since you started this. You address yourself to the MMfA non-RS ref you reverted and you explain, for the first time, why that ref is a RS, and you do so without ad hominem argument or general statements about how MMfA has been shown to be reliable elsewhere. Unomi (talk) 02:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This particular case is this edit to Burning money - the MMfA page in question used as source is here complete with a transcript and a video of Kudlow setting fire to a dollar bill. LaEK's claim that he was unaware of BRD is frankly ludicrous when you consider that this particular account was created in 2006. His block for legal threats also came on the heels of idht regarding WP:LEGAL. Unomi (talk) 03:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's 4 years ago! Be reasonable. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose LAEC and I are on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to MMfA links and whether or not they constitute WP:LINKVIOs, having had a very lengthy discussion on the matter. We still disagree on the LINKVIO issue (and I still hold out hope he'll concede someday, LOL). But for those editors here who support an indefinite block, please take a look at that discussion and also how it got started. Use this link and look at the edit history for July 13th. LAEC removed an MMfA link from a page I watch; I reverted, requesting clarification on the Talk Page. He did not revert my revert; instead, he went to the Talk Page and proceeded to patiently lay out his position and perspective on the matter, a conversation that went on for quite some time that you can see here. The conversation was undeniably civil and respectful. Hence, after my own personal run-in with him on an MMfA dispute, I am skeptical of the claim that he systematically steamrolls over people's objections without taking the time to stop and discuss the issue in a civil fashion. If he did revert someone who reverted his edit, please take the time to carefully examine the incident and see if an edit summary or reason was provided by the offended editor rather than just assuming so. Also, reading some of the comments in this thread, it's apparent there are strong feelings in play for some folks here. I would ask that each of you consider what level of examination and scrutiny you would want your peers to apply before voting to block yourself in a similar situation. LAEC has thousands upon thousands of constructive edits, so please do him that courtesy before you make up your mind.--AzureCitizen (talk) 05:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose It's hard to believe that anyone would oppose the removal of such viciously hyperpartisan sources as MMfA. Yes, they do often (but not always) link to reliable sources. But no, they are not a WP:RS because of the high-velocity partisan spin, editing out of context, selective presentation of facts, and general propagandizing in which they constantly engage. We need to amend WP:RS to clarify Wikipedia's policy on hyperpartisan sources such as MMfA and, at the other end of the rainbow, such right-wing trash as World Net Daily. Until that occurs, any suggestion that LAEC should be indef blocked raises my suspicions about any editor who would even suggest such an oppressive remedy, where there is no clear policy. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 09:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support. Relentless POV-pushing and IDHT over a long period of time. Xanthoxyl < 14:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support Wikipedia is far too lenient with disruptive editors. Ban and move on. Dlabtot (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose There is no ongoing disruption; the user in question is engaging in civil discussions about the disputed edits. There is nothing to be gained from a block. —Torchiest talk/contribs 16:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
LEAC proposal
This is LegitimateAndEvenCompelling. Let me suggest what I have learned here and how I will respond, then people can comment and eventually agree that those actions will be acceptable. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I will continue to examine MMfA refs for compliance with all Wiki policy, most typically WP:RS. If I determine that the ref fails the test, I will take the following action:
- Create a Talk page section entitled "MMfA refs".
- On the Talk page, add the MMfA link(s) and associated text.
- On the Talk page, briefly state why the ref(s) is(are) non-RS.
- On the Main page, remove the MMfA ref(s), and typically leave the remaining text, though other policy may require removal, in which case I will briefly state why I removed the text in the Talk page. I have not done this much at all.
- On the Main page, insert a Citation tag, but only if the MMfA ref removed is not duplicative of existing links or is not in the External Links section.
- On the Main page, leave a history comment similar to the full disclosure I currently provide, including that an MMfA link is involved, but also adding See Talk:MMfA refs.
If I determine that the MMfA ref is Wiki compliant, as it is from time to time, I will take no action, except perhaps to improve the link, as I have done in at least one instance.
If I am reverted, I will take the following action:
- If the history comment claims the MMfA ref is a RS, I will not revert but I go to the Talk page. I will take no action on the Main page until consensus is reached or if a week goes by and discussion on the Talk page has ceased without consensus. This raises a problem. What if all the folks here seeking to block me indefinitely create a consensus that a non-RS is a RS. What do I do then? RS Noticeboard, I guess. But what if the same thing happens there?
- If the history comment is blank, I will revert, but only once, and thereafter return to Talk.
- If the history comment contains ad hominem comments, I will revert, but only twice, and thereafter return to Talk.
I note that before this issue was raised and Badger did his mass reverts of all my edits, very few were reverted, and of those, even fewer stayed reverted. I say this to point out that I do not expect a lot of reverts, except if it is by the people here seeking the indef block. If those people revert me just because of what is going on here, that is a problem, and I am asking now how to address that, as that will clearly be for reasons having nothing to do with the RS issue.
The edits that Badger mass reverted, he should revert them all. Have any of you seen the personal attacks that guy made in the history comments? His actions went beyond the pale and he should revert himself--he has already trouted himself, but that's only of jovial consequence. Note well that I have not and likely will not take the route of using procedural means to intimidate him, such as this huge matter that has been filed against me to silence me for complying with WP:RS, though perhaps not complying with WP:BRD, although I was unaware of that until now and will now comply. No, I won't make official complaints against him, or against ChrisO for his move to block me 13 minutes after his comment on my Talk page saying I needed to stop something or someone might block me, or against Black Kite for his projection about POV editing (as if RS compliance is ever POV editting) made minutes before he too went to my Talk page to determine the veracity of what he just claimed was true. Given what has happened to me here and how I have responded in the positive manner I have and how many editors have supported me here and how the vast majority of my edits made over months were not reverted until Badger acted as he did, I ask that Badger be required to revert his mass edits of what I have done over the months, particularly since they were good edits never reverted for months until he came along and made his ad hominem attacks, and because the RS rule goes to the heart of Wikipedia.
Let me add this. In all this time, only one editor, and only once, has ever addressed the RS issue on a substantive basis. Everyone else every single time skipped over that and jumped to ad hominem argument or general statements that MMfA has been proven to be reliable. Then they move to block me indefinitely. Clearly they have no substantive argument or they would have made it. So here is the question. What happens if on the Talk page the discussion and resulting consensus never addresses the substantive RS issues? What happens if, like what has been happening 99 44/100% of the time so far, people choose to attack me or to make blanket statements about how MMfA is a RS on other pages? What is the means to prevent Wikipedia from being subverted in such a manner? What recourse do I have to get attention to that problem?
Okay, what do you all think of the above?
Thank you all very much. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Based on the persistent efforts to use ad hominem efforts to sway opinion, such as the raising of 4 year old disciplinary matters, among other things, and in light of the persistent avoidance of substantive RS issues in the context RS rules require, I think it might be reasonable to ask the editors seeking the indef block if they would be willing to volunteer whether they are MMfA members or MMfA supporters. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This thread is about your behaviour, and whether you're going to be indefinitely blocked. Do you mind if we focus on that now? The other important questions can be addressed on a new thread, here or at an appropriate forum. But, for now, can we just see how everybody feels about what you have proposed regarding your future conduct? Anthony (talk) 04:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it might be reasonable to ask the editors seeking the indef block if they would be willing to volunteer whether they are MMfA members or MMfA supporters. This betrays a completely inappropriate battlegound mentality, as well as being an egregious violation of WP:AGF. LAEC does not seem to fathom the possibility that someone may find his actions disruptive without being his political opposite -- and by his comment reveals the probability that his own actions have been ideologically motivated and not based on Wikipedian principles. Serious consideration has to be given to the question of whether this editor is capable of acting based strictly on grounds of policy, without guidance from his political views. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Eh, it was an after thought after all I've been through. Cut me some slack, even though you moved to block me indefinitely. I'll withdraw the question and strike it out. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok let's look at your proposal: it amounts to codified edit warring ("I will revert twice..."), and is therefore totally unaacceptable. What you need to do is wait until there is some consensus regarding whether the source is reliable or not, and then act. The lack of consensus is not license to do whatever you wish, the lack of consensus is merely an indication that the community has not yet made up its collective mind, and in that circumstance, one needs to act carefully and with due consideration for specific circumstances. Mass reversions when Wikipedia is still thinking about what to do is not being bold, it's being disruptive. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless I am the one being mass reverted. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Those reversions returned the articles to the status quo ante. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the case of disruptive editing such as your. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I made those edits over months, and a very tiny percentage were ever reverted, only a few, actually. They were not "disruptive" if you judge by the reverts you get or don't get. They were not reverted until Badger Drink did so en masse as a result of this AN/I, and with the ad hominem history comments for which he trouted himself.
- I'm going to sleep now. Sweet dreams. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Those reversions returned the articles to the status quo ante. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the case of disruptive editing such as your. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless I am the one being mass reverted. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok let's look at your proposal: it amounts to codified edit warring ("I will revert twice..."), and is therefore totally unaacceptable. What you need to do is wait until there is some consensus regarding whether the source is reliable or not, and then act. The lack of consensus is not license to do whatever you wish, the lack of consensus is merely an indication that the community has not yet made up its collective mind, and in that circumstance, one needs to act carefully and with due consideration for specific circumstances. Mass reversions when Wikipedia is still thinking about what to do is not being bold, it's being disruptive. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Eh, it was an after thought after all I've been through. Cut me some slack, even though you moved to block me indefinitely. I'll withdraw the question and strike it out. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it might be reasonable to ask the editors seeking the indef block if they would be willing to volunteer whether they are MMfA members or MMfA supporters. This betrays a completely inappropriate battlegound mentality, as well as being an egregious violation of WP:AGF. LAEC does not seem to fathom the possibility that someone may find his actions disruptive without being his political opposite -- and by his comment reveals the probability that his own actions have been ideologically motivated and not based on Wikipedian principles. Serious consideration has to be given to the question of whether this editor is capable of acting based strictly on grounds of policy, without guidance from his political views. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This thread is about your behaviour, and whether you're going to be indefinitely blocked. Do you mind if we focus on that now? The other important questions can be addressed on a new thread, here or at an appropriate forum. But, for now, can we just see how everybody feels about what you have proposed regarding your future conduct? Anthony (talk) 04:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- With the striking of the offensive section, I whole-heartedly support this proposal. It accomplishes the goal of ending disruption and allows LaEC to voice his concerns without detriment to the project (it may even improve sources where there's consensus Media Matters is not the appropriate citation). All in all a better outcome then either extreme. Blocks are meant to be preventive, not punitive. We have mitigated potential damage, so none is needed. -- ۩ Mask 05:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- The problem here is that you are still seeking to make the determination on a global scale of whether MMfA is a reliable source or not. It should be obvious from the discussion on this issue that there is substantial disagreement on that point. I see nothing in your proposal about getting the consensus of editors beforehand about whether MMfA is a reliable source. What needs to happen is a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard, followed by an RFC if necessary. Only then and only if the consensus is that MMfA is reliable should you attempt to carry out a systematic removal or replacement of MMfA citations. As it is, you're still pursuing the approach that got you into trouble - i.e. imposing your own view of MMfA on the whole encyclopedia without attempting to obtain any consensus for your actions beforehand. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- "[A] discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard, followed by an RFC if necessary" for each of the hundreds of edits I make would be a huge roadblock that would essentially end my efforts to apply WP:RS, and it would be overburdensome to everyone involved were I to decide to do that. As ChrisO is the person who waited 13 minutes to move to block me indefinitely after advising me not to edit in a certain way that I did not, is it not surprising he would suggest such an onerous requirement. Recall that I made those edits over months, and a very tiny percentage were ever reverted, only a few, actually. Focusing on MMfA is not what got me in trouble with Wiki policy nonadherence, rather that was failure to comply with WP:BRD, although admittedly it was the MMfA that got me in trouble from the viewpoint of editors such as ChrisO who oppose removing MMfA refs even when they violate WP:RS, etc. So I am not "imposing [my] own view of MMfA on the whole encyclopedia without attempting to obtain any consensus for your actions beforehand". My "view of MMfA" is irrelevant. The point is compliance with WIkipedia policy and that I have found an easy way to quickly identify hundreds of refs that may violate that policy. To the extent that I have removed the MMfA refs and not provided a means to mine the refs for RSs or to allow for consensus, I have proposed a means to correct that. That is what is being decided now. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are right ChrisO, there is substantial disagreement on under what circumstances MMfA is a reliable source. It is unreasonable to expect any editor to be guided by one particular contentious interpretation and not another. LAeC will follow WP:BRD, and preserve the MMfA ref's so others may use them to find RSs if they wish. That should deal with the disruption, from his side. Anthony (talk) 13:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- @LAEC - No not a RfC for every edit. There is so far no consensus that MMfA is NOT (that's NOT) a reliable source. Opinion is split. Until you have consensus that MMfA is NOT a reliable source, you may not systematically remove it from the encyclopaedia. That is WP:DISRUPTIVE. Either start at the RS noticeboard, or start a RfC to confirm that MMfA is not a reliable source. In the absence of that, you may only remove it where you can show that it is not a reliable source. This would involve demonstrating that it is the only source saying something, or that other sources contradict it, and cannot be done by mass removal, but must be done on a case by case basis. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree - Elen of the Roads is 100% correct. I will "only remove [an MMfA ref] where [I] can show that it is not a reliable source". Indeed, that is exactly what I have proposed doing. I have also proposed doing it "on a case by case basis." I will not do "mass removals".
- "[A] discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard, followed by an RFC if necessary" for each of the hundreds of edits I make would be a huge roadblock that would essentially end my efforts to apply WP:RS, and it would be overburdensome to everyone involved were I to decide to do that. As ChrisO is the person who waited 13 minutes to move to block me indefinitely after advising me not to edit in a certain way that I did not, is it not surprising he would suggest such an onerous requirement. Recall that I made those edits over months, and a very tiny percentage were ever reverted, only a few, actually. Focusing on MMfA is not what got me in trouble with Wiki policy nonadherence, rather that was failure to comply with WP:BRD, although admittedly it was the MMfA that got me in trouble from the viewpoint of editors such as ChrisO who oppose removing MMfA refs even when they violate WP:RS, etc. So I am not "imposing [my] own view of MMfA on the whole encyclopedia without attempting to obtain any consensus for your actions beforehand". My "view of MMfA" is irrelevant. The point is compliance with WIkipedia policy and that I have found an easy way to quickly identify hundreds of refs that may violate that policy. To the extent that I have removed the MMfA refs and not provided a means to mine the refs for RSs or to allow for consensus, I have proposed a means to correct that. That is what is being decided now. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- The problem here is that you are still seeking to make the determination on a global scale of whether MMfA is a reliable source or not. It should be obvious from the discussion on this issue that there is substantial disagreement on that point. I see nothing in your proposal about getting the consensus of editors beforehand about whether MMfA is a reliable source. What needs to happen is a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard, followed by an RFC if necessary. Only then and only if the consensus is that MMfA is reliable should you attempt to carry out a systematic removal or replacement of MMfA citations. As it is, you're still pursuing the approach that got you into trouble - i.e. imposing your own view of MMfA on the whole encyclopedia without attempting to obtain any consensus for your actions beforehand. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- On the issue of whether MMfA is a RS generally, I have no opinion on that. Further, I do not think is it constructive to raise the issue. WP:RS states, emphasis in original, "Proper sourcing always depends on context...." Also, "Deciding which sources are appropriate depends on context." To me, that means each instance of a ref needs to be seen in context. I do not understand, given that Wiki policy, how any source, no matter how reliable or not, can be given blanket approval or opposition. Oh sure, refs from one source are usually RSs and refs from another are usually not, but a blanket policy cannot possibly apply where WP:RS requires that each ref be viewed in context. In other words, MMfA refs cannot be given blanket approval. They must be reviewed in context, like any other ref. My proposal does exactly that.
- Someone made the suggestion that WP:RS needs to be updated to, basically, record what is being decided here so as to minimize the need to redo this kind of thing over and over, this being just the latest effort by so many people. I fully support that effort, should anyone actually carry it out. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
A thread has been opened regarding this [41]. Unomi (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- It appears that none of the proposals are going anywhere, so this agreed to self-restriction by LEAC will likely be the only resolution. I think that on the whole, the community is fine with this outcome. However, I would like to remind LEAC to keep in mind that when removing sources that he deems unreliable, he should do so even-handedly, removing all unreliable sources and not just target those from a particular source. If he does this, people will not object to his actions. LK (talk) 04:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- That amounts to a variation on the topic ban proposal Lawrencekhoo also launched and also lost in the section immediately below. We all know Wikipedia is for people to do what they like within the rules, not to do as other people direct them to do. Besides, others have already discussed here that I am not required to do as Lawrencekhoo is yet again demanding.
- People have also suggested Lawrencekhoo has wandering into WP:WIKIHOUNDING territory. At this point, I do feel Lawrencekhoo "is disrupti[ng] another user's (LAEC's) own enjoyment of editing, or [] the project generally, for no overriding reason." I'll assume the hounding has continued since I have acted again to remove the MMfA ref from the article that caused Lawrencekhoo to launch this AN/I in the first place, this time ensuring compliance with that to which I agreed regarding Talk page attention.
- To the majority of people who have supported me, I thank you. To those who did not, I thank you for your input as well. I think this particular AN/I proves once and for all that no reference is deemed automatically reliable, not even MMfA, not even if MMfA has been proven reliable on other Wiki pages. So that should stop the tired, false argument that MMfA has been proven reliable again and again, therefore there is no need to consider context as required by WP:RS.
- Most of all I would like to thank Jimbo Wales for creating a system that works to create fair rules for all. I know Wikipedia gets blamed for a lot of things that is not Wikipedia's doing. It is not Wikipedia's doing, for example, that MMfA refs/links/main page mentions are inserted by the hundreds whereever possible whether or not they satisfy WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:LINKVIO, or any other policy. But, now that I have become aware that has happened, I will work within Wiki rules to bring about compliance with Wiki rules, and this AN/I proves anyone has a green light to do so, as long as Wiki expectations are met and/or exceeded. Happy editing, all. Here's a link I use to find MMfA refs that, in my experience, frequently violate one Wiki rule or another.
- If anyone is wondering why I wrote this, it's because I am reacting to being wikihounded by Lawrencekhoo and he needs to know it is time to stop. I would not have written this otherwise. It really does feel good to have Wiki rules and a Wiki community to support me and others when we try to apply those rules. Really, thanks Jim. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's likely that few are still paying attention to this, but I would like to point out that I suggested:
- When removing sources that he deems unreliable, he should do so even-handedly, removing all unreliable sources
- He should not just target a particular source
- By rejecting this, LegitimateAndEvenCompelling has essentially said that he will remove sources in a partisan way, and target particular sources.
- As for the wikihounding, I invite all to look at my edit history to see if this is even remotely true. Apparently, LEAC interprets my trying to get him to stop systematically removing a particular source from multiple articles as wikhounding, since it is interfering with his "own enjoyment of editing". LK (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's likely that few are still paying attention to this, but I would like to point out that I suggested:
LEAC Topic Ban Proposal
Given that LEAC still doesn't get that it is inappropriate to systematically remove something from the encyclopedia without community consensus, I think its better if he were to leave the issue of MMfA references to others, and to make productive contributions elsewhere, I suggest a topic ban whereby:
LegitimateAndEvenCompelling is forbidden to remove any MMfA references from Wikipedia, or to systematically tag them as unreliable.
If he sees any violations of policy involving a MMfA link, he is free to raise the issue on the talk page of the article or any of the relevant noticeboards. If there really is a violation of policy, someone else will surely take care of it. LEAC needs to concentrate his energies elsewhere as he doesn't seem to understand that his actions are disruptive and not supported by the community. LK (talk) 15:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Can I suggest we wait for LEaC's response to Elen's very sensible post, above? Persuasion and education take a little longer than coercion, but create a nicer work environment. Anthony (talk) 16:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Done. See above section. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I oppose this outright. There is no consensus that MMFA is a reliable source, so there is no community consensus that his removals are a bad thing. An RFC can make a determination, which will settle this once and for all. However, I think that LAEC should wait at least a week, to see if an RFC is drafted. If so, he should not remove any MMFA links until the RFC concludes. Removing links while an RFC is in progress is unquestionably disruptive, but this attempt to hold him hostage over links of disputed appropriateness is not acceptable either. Horologium (talk) 17:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- You've got it exactly backwards. Please see Elen's post above, which gets it right. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree with that interpretation. A lot of the difference in our positions may be attributed to differences in our interpretation of BLP; I favor a wide scope on that policy, which would result in more sources being disallowed when discussing living people. YMMV, of course. Horologium (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with BeyondMyKen and Elen. We need consensus on the question of appropriate use of MMfA and other such sites, and the polite thing for LAEC to do, who has been extended considerable patience here, would be to hold off on further MMfA edits until that is achieved. I have started a discussion at [42] Anthony (talk) 18:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree with that interpretation. A lot of the difference in our positions may be attributed to differences in our interpretation of BLP; I favor a wide scope on that policy, which would result in more sources being disallowed when discussing living people. YMMV, of course. Horologium (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- You've got it exactly backwards. Please see Elen's post above, which gets it right. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose. I have heard the contention that LaeC has been "systematically removing all references to MMfA" echoed around but so far have not seen it proven. It seems LaeC has been removing them on a case by case example and on at least one instance improved the citation and kept it there. Until it can actually be shown that his edits are blindly "systematic" and that a majority have indeed been disruptive I completely disagree with attempts here to block him.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. The proposed solution offered by LEAC himself seems best. And we need to amend WP:RS to discuss hyperpartisan sources such as MMfA and WND. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support indefinite block on LK LAEC already sort of said he was sorry and anymore more on this post is violating AGF and harrassment. LK has not backed down so he should be blocked. Let's get back to writing, not bickering, after LK is blocked (unless he says sorry). RIPGC (talk) 04:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support indefinite ANI topic ban on LK This entire thread has been a gigantic drama-stirrin' waste of time. Jtrainor (talk) 13:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Close this thread Despite claims to the contrary, there is no consensus concerning under what circumstances, if any, it is appropriate to report MMfA's conclusions and opinions. There have been 7 recent lengthy discussions on the topic at RSN and Talk:RSN, all ending with no agreement – [43][44][45][46] [47][48][49] – and there is currently an RFC on the issue at Talk:RS. Until consensus is achieved, LEaC's understanding of this issue is no more incorrect than LK's.
Despite claims to the contrary, LEaC has not been "blanket" deleting MMfA citations, but has been working case by case, and engaging in polite debate with those who contest a deletion.
This thread has addressed LEaC's failure to follow BRD, and not saving the MMfA citation so others can easily track down the sources MMfA used. LEaC has learned about BRD and agrees to be guided by it, and has agreed to preserve, on the article talk page, any deleted MMfA citations. I think this is a good result. Anthony (talk) 16:01, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion moved
An RfC has been started on partisan news organizations like the MMfA on the WP:Identifying reliable sources talk page. Please continue any discussion on this issue there.[50] LK (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Pagemove consensus formed on Wikiproject page
Perhaps there is nothing wrong with this, but I think the normal procedures have been circumvented. A page about something connected to Judaism (but also to classical antiquity and Christianity) being moved to a more Jew-centric article title with a discussion on Wikiproject:Judaism (Here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism#Building_and_destroying_the_Beit_Hamikdash) instead of on the talkpage through the normal "requested moves" process.
I left a comment here: Talk:Second_Temple_(Judaism)#Page_move and notified the mover, but would appreciate some admin feedback.
This appears to affect multiple pages.
Cheers. --FormerIP (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand why they did that, WikiProjects don't own article or decide their names. Feel free to list it at WP:RM to get a discussion beyond a single WikiProject. Fences&Windows 23:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is that the only way to handle it? It would reverse the burden of proof, so that if there is no consensus it stays at the new address. --FormerIP (talk) 23:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the page move should be undone, and proper discussion to take place. The discussion and a vote was started at pretty much the same time, and the person who started the discussion decided the outcome. Apart from the temple articles, it was only judaism related pages that were notified, and I do not know why this wasn't listed at WP:RM. Quantpole (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Quantpole: It is only logical and correct to assume that a subject that primarily concerns Judaism and is critically important to it should be centralized at that subject's main project talk page as was done. Every religion's project talk page need not have been notified. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc etc etc do not identify Judaism editors when holding serious discussions about topics that are central to their religions. Otherwise it would have become a real spam fest to notify dozens of pages when already ten had been. WP:RM need also not have been notified because at the outset the redirects and page moves could have been done by anyone in any case because at the time First Temple (Judaism), Second Temple (Judaism), Third Temple (Judaism) were all empty red links. (They have now been trimmed to the more neutral sounding, but still objectively correct First Temple, Second Temple, Third Temple.) "Proper discussion" as you call it did take place starting over two weeks ago and it was quite comprehensive. The outcome was decided by the consensus and the votes were a clear-cut and precise way of measuring and recording the outcome as each user either commented or voted or both. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, there's no point really going repeatedly over what should or shouldn't have been done (apart from that I encourage you to read WP:VOTE). However, now that there are concerns, the correct thing to do should be to reopen discussion to properly achieve consensus. To avoid a fait accompli in case consensus is not achieved, the old titles should be kept for now. Quantpole (talk) 13:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Quantpole: It is only logical and correct to assume that a subject that primarily concerns Judaism and is critically important to it should be centralized at that subject's main project talk page as was done. Every religion's project talk page need not have been notified. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc etc etc do not identify Judaism editors when holding serious discussions about topics that are central to their religions. Otherwise it would have become a real spam fest to notify dozens of pages when already ten had been. WP:RM need also not have been notified because at the outset the redirects and page moves could have been done by anyone in any case because at the time First Temple (Judaism), Second Temple (Judaism), Third Temple (Judaism) were all empty red links. (They have now been trimmed to the more neutral sounding, but still objectively correct First Temple, Second Temple, Third Temple.) "Proper discussion" as you call it did take place starting over two weeks ago and it was quite comprehensive. The outcome was decided by the consensus and the votes were a clear-cut and precise way of measuring and recording the outcome as each user either commented or voted or both. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the page move should be undone, and proper discussion to take place. The discussion and a vote was started at pretty much the same time, and the person who started the discussion decided the outcome. Apart from the temple articles, it was only judaism related pages that were notified, and I do not know why this wasn't listed at WP:RM. Quantpole (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is that the only way to handle it? It would reverse the burden of proof, so that if there is no consensus it stays at the new address. --FormerIP (talk) 23:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi again Quantpole: So far you and user FormerIP have that position that flies in the face of legitimate discussions and a clarifying vote that reached consensus and that even admin Fram (see below) has not done what you think based it seems more on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT than anything else, which is not good enough. Admin Fram has been more reasonable and made the most neutral changes that everyone can agree to at this time. User FormerIP expressed some concerns and at that he mis-stated them when he said that there had been "no discussion" which has been proven to be false. Not only were there lengthy discussions but it was also proven and cited in the discussions that based on Google hits the terms First Temple, Second Temple and Third Temple are the most commonly and frequently used, and that one lone user's weak and unfounded complaint cannot be a basis for overturning the learned opinions of multiple users who supported and agreed to the changes, namely:
The above provided more than adequate consensus and it would be horrendous to call their votes into question. IZAK (talk) 01:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- All I am saying is now that the process you used has been called into question, the discussion should be reopened so that users outside of judaism related topics have the opportunity to comment. I am not calling anyone's opinion into question, and have not even expressed an opinion on the subject matter (I'd have to do some research first). Quantpole (talk) 07:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Quantpole: I have gone to great lengths to explain the background to these moves, something that the one complaining was not even aware of when he started his complaint. While at least eight users have agreed to the moves, only one has raised some questions now. We have gone back and forth and an admin has already made a useful decision, (see Fram's decision below) with good changes that are certainly very agreeable, reasonable and meet all aspects of WP:NPOV. That seems like a good way to end the matter for now. You are standing on the sidelines, admitting that you need to do more research, so why not go and do the research first and then come back when you are ready and your views will be gladly welcomed, but for now it serves no purpose. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 08:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is going nowhere, and you are not getting the point at all. The next step will be to list them at WP:RM. Quantpole (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- No it won't because an admin (Fram, below) has already reviewed the entire case and made the requisite WP:NPOV adjustments already. You are veering into WP:POINT territory and as far as I am concerned you are violating WP:AGF with me. IZAK (talk) 04:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- My moves were just a correction of the most basic errors with your moves. They do not mean that discussion has to end, and I have no objection whatsoever to a discussion at RM, or to the re-moval of these pages to other titles (as long as they follow the basics of the MoS, like no disambiguation when none is needed). If people prefer these pages at Second Temple of Jerusalem, Second Jewish Temple, Temple of Jerusalem (date build - date destroyed), or whatever is the most common name in the English literature about them, that's all fine by me. Please don't use my moves as a reason to end all discussion on this. Fram (talk) 07:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Fram, my moves were not "in error" they followed a lenghthy discussion to attain WP:CONSENSUS. Obviously the discussion is not over, it's been going on for 3,000 years. For some odd reason the Jewish temples seem to be subject to undue attention from non-Jewish sources as to what they should be, even if they should be built, exist or be destroyed, or what their names are or should be. It is logical to assume that the terms used in Judaism and by Jews should be the preferred ones for Jewish topics. Until now you had not clarified yourself, thanks for doing so now. In fact your moves were perfect and are supported by the research using Google that uses the terms "First Temple", "Second Temple", "Third Temple", more than any others. IZAK (talk) 09:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Apart from the fact that you did a copy-paste move instead of an actual move, that you didn't follow the Manual of style in your names, and that it is debated whether the method and location of the move suggestion debate was correct, you are right, your moves were not in error... And please don't bring in utterly irrelevant things like "it's been going on for 3,000 years". We are discussing the page names of some pages on Wikipedia, not the actual buildings and locations. You are incorrect in your assumption that the terms used by Jews or Judaism should be preferred. The most common terms in English should be used, no more, no less. Whether these names coincide with the preferences of Jews, Christians, atheist scholars of Antiquity, or any other group is not important and should not be taken into consideration. Please don't drag the religion of editors or the actual history of the buildings into this debate any longer, it is not helpful at all and only works to antagonize editors (by e.g. giving the impression that the opinion of non-Jews is irrelevant for this discussion). Fram (talk) 09:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Fram, my moves were not "in error" they followed a lenghthy discussion to attain WP:CONSENSUS. Obviously the discussion is not over, it's been going on for 3,000 years. For some odd reason the Jewish temples seem to be subject to undue attention from non-Jewish sources as to what they should be, even if they should be built, exist or be destroyed, or what their names are or should be. It is logical to assume that the terms used in Judaism and by Jews should be the preferred ones for Jewish topics. Until now you had not clarified yourself, thanks for doing so now. In fact your moves were perfect and are supported by the research using Google that uses the terms "First Temple", "Second Temple", "Third Temple", more than any others. IZAK (talk) 09:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- My moves were just a correction of the most basic errors with your moves. They do not mean that discussion has to end, and I have no objection whatsoever to a discussion at RM, or to the re-moval of these pages to other titles (as long as they follow the basics of the MoS, like no disambiguation when none is needed). If people prefer these pages at Second Temple of Jerusalem, Second Jewish Temple, Temple of Jerusalem (date build - date destroyed), or whatever is the most common name in the English literature about them, that's all fine by me. Please don't use my moves as a reason to end all discussion on this. Fram (talk) 07:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- No it won't because an admin (Fram, below) has already reviewed the entire case and made the requisite WP:NPOV adjustments already. You are veering into WP:POINT territory and as far as I am concerned you are violating WP:AGF with me. IZAK (talk) 04:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is going nowhere, and you are not getting the point at all. The next step will be to list them at WP:RM. Quantpole (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Quantpole: I have gone to great lengths to explain the background to these moves, something that the one complaining was not even aware of when he started his complaint. While at least eight users have agreed to the moves, only one has raised some questions now. We have gone back and forth and an admin has already made a useful decision, (see Fram's decision below) with good changes that are certainly very agreeable, reasonable and meet all aspects of WP:NPOV. That seems like a good way to end the matter for now. You are standing on the sidelines, admitting that you need to do more research, so why not go and do the research first and then come back when you are ready and your views will be gladly welcomed, but for now it serves no purpose. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 08:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Fram: As you can see from the very comprehensive discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Building and destroying the Beit Hamikdash you will see that it was proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the terms "First Temple", "Second Temple", "Third Temple" are the more frequent terms based on hundreds of thousands of Google hits, so it is not just about choosing some marginal Jewish terms. In any case, this is a subject central to Judaism so there is no way really to "split hairs" and say that it should be kept out of WP:JUDAISM discussions where everything is up for discussion and very often editorial, naming and move decisions, actually nothing is excluded in the many years the Wikiproject has been in existence. In any case, anyone monitoring those pages could read the notices about the centralized discussion I placed on each one of them and was free to join the discussion so that no one was excluded on any grounds. The objections only started after the open-ended lengthy discussions, and after WP:CONSENSUS was clearly reached, and only after moves were made without any prior involvement in the discussions themselves by subsequent objectors. IZAK (talk) 23:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
All talk pages, and more, were notified about the discussions and proposed moves
Hi: The above depiction by User:Former IP is not correct. Firstly, there most definitely was a very lengthy centralized discussion open to all users for the sake of orderliness and reaching consensus was at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Building and destroying the Beit Hamikdash since 14 July 2010. Secondly, all users, no matter what "projects" they do or don't belong to, were notified on the relevant talk pages as well as a few other talk pages of effected articles were notified about the proposed redirect, also on 14 July 2010, (at a cost of being accused of "spamming" which it was not for this purpose), see:
- Talk:Temple in Jerusalem#Correct names for the First and Second Temples
- Talk:First_Temple,
- Talk:Second_Temple,
- Talk:Herod's_Temple,
- Talk:Third_Temple,
- Talk:Jerusalem, as well as at
- Talk:Judaism,
- Talk:The_Three_Weeks,
- Talk:The_Nine_Days,
- Talk:Tisha_B'Av
So relevant talk pages were fully notified and editors were given enough time to respond, as a decent amount did, but now with the "corrected" redirects for some pages, some of these older displaced histories may be not showing up for some odd reason, even though I have located them and they are still there in their original places. Therefore, users who still have or had (for the four articles moved) these pages on their watch lists had more than two weeks to partake, share their views and make comments and suggestions. Those editors who did were mostly reliable Judaic editors who are trustworthy and responsible. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I moved the three Temple pages to the undisambiguated version (i.e. without (Judaism) added to it). Pages shouldn't be at a disambiguated title when there is no need to disambiguate at all. The page move discussion was indeed mentioned on the talk page of the article, but it was very unclear that this was actually a discussion about a page move. Looking at the move discussion, there was clear support for having the pages at first temple and second temple, but much less support for moving them to the (Judaism) disambiguation as well. Fram (talk) 08:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- IMO, there isn't validity to the discussion at Wikiproject:Judaism, because it isn't an appropriate forum for discussion of a page move. As IZAK points out, it is technically true that this was open to all editors, but I think it is also clear that any discussion on the talk page of a Wikiproject is likely to be slanted towards the views of its members. Plus, WP has a process for page moves which was not followed. So I think, strictly speaking, the page should be moved back to where it was and a new discussion launched if needed. I think "Second Temple" even without the bracketed "Judaism" still reflects a Jewish POV and is insufficiently descriptive (v. recent porposal to move Second Amendment to the United States Constitution to Second Amendment).
- Thanks, though, Fram. I should probably mention that you forgot to move the talk page. --FormerIP (talk) 11:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Think the views of a few admins as to what is best in the circumstance outlined would be useful. If admins would prefer to leave things as they are, I won't start a campaign over it, but I don't think it would set a good precedent. --FormerIP (talk) 11:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Former IP: You go too far when you allege and complain that "Second Temple" is a "Jewish POV" when the subject itself is part and parcel of Judaism and was for its entire history. The Two past destroyed Temples and the desire for a rebuilt Third Temple are central to Judaism and the Hebrew Bible and to the spiritual goals of all Jews throughout the millennia. To set the record straight the discussion was not just about a mere few page moves, as anyone can clearly see, it was about creating cohesiveness and uniformity in the entire subject starting with the names of the First, Second and Third Temples, even though they have alternate names, but the discussions showed that there are more Google hits from a number of directions for the First Temple, Second Temple and Third Temple names, and also starting discussions how to subsequently streamline this entire subject of the Three Jewish Temples and hopefully you do agree that they were and are Jewish Temples and that it is logical and reasonable to expect that they should be known by their Jewish names (in any case there is no problem with calling them First, Second, Third in English directly translated from Hebrew usages over the ages) and not by subsequent names thrust on them albeit in usage in some circles. As for your point that "Second Temple" alone is "insufficiently descriptive" that is precisely why naming it Second Temple (Judaism) is the perfect and accurate name for it that would take care of those kind of concerns, but evidently you feel that the Jewish Temples must be "de-Judaized" and detached and reformulated as entities not belonging to either the Jews or to Judaism, as implied in the criticism not to take it to the Judaism project talk page and your grumbling about the Temples' basic names. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Think the views of a few admins as to what is best in the circumstance outlined would be useful. If admins would prefer to leave things as they are, I won't start a campaign over it, but I don't think it would set a good precedent. --FormerIP (talk) 11:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
FormerIP: Not sure what you're talking about. While the first two Temples may have been physically located in Jerusalem as will the third one according to Judaism, their real over-arching and fundamental importance and position within Judaism are immeasurably far greater than any mere finite geographic locale or structural building, even if it is in as important a place as Jerusalem. Judaism and Jews have remained attached at the hip through their beliefs, prayers and studies to both the notions of the Temples and to Jerusalem as spiritual holy centers for millennia even though they have had neither a temple nor access to Jerusalem for (most of) the last 2,000 years. IZAK (talk) 01:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's probably nice for them, but I don't understand why you think it means you don't have to follow the normal WP procedure for moving a page. --FormerIP (talk) 02:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- FormerIP: As I have clarified, once the discussions reached a consensus I could have easily moved the pages to "First Temple (Judaism)", "Second Temple (Judaism)", "Third Temple (Judaism)" which were empty, open unused red link pages that I had created. There would have been no problem with that. I made a technical error by not moving the pages with the move buttons on "Solomon's Temple", "Second Temple in Jerusalem" and "Third Temple" without any problems. My mistake, and it was only a mistake, was to cut and paste instead of making the easier moves (the reason I did that is that I was working quickly and I was a little rusty about making pages moves), but I then asked User Avraham to iron out my oversight, which he did do. So please do not make a mountain out of a mole hill when nothing untoward has happened. Thank you for your understanding. IZAK (talk) 02:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The problem isn't to do with the actual mechanics of the page moves (I'm not aware you did anything wrong there), it is that the move requests were not listed at WP:RM and the discussions about moving the page was held in a forum where a particular POV was likely to prevail. You even opened the disucssion by talking about "confusion...stemming from opposing secular and religious scholarly outlooks" and suggesting that certain articles should be renames on the basis that they "belong" to Judaism. This, I think, is out of line with the normal spirit of inclusiveness and NPOV on WP. --FormerIP (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The topic is about the Jewish temples not about Christian or another religion's ones. Jewish articles carry far more secular content than would be allowed or accepted in regular topics. There is and will always be room for lots of different views in the Jewish Temple articles, in fact there is not a huge amount in them from a purely Jewish POV in them and all I was proposing, or requesting, was to create the correct balance but so far absolutely nothing has happened. You are misunderstanding and misusing the policies of POV by claiming the absurd, that a key subject that is inherent to a project should "not" be discussed there. That would like saying that no discussions or decisions about medical topics should be made at WP:MEDICINE unless they are first discussed somewhere else where they don't deal with medicine. Nothing wrong happened. I should hope you understand the analogy. IZAK (talk) 04:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, it would be like saying that no pages relating to medical topics should be moved solely on the basis of a discussion at WP:MEDICINE, which AFAICT is the case. --FormerIP (talk) 11:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- The topic is about the Jewish temples not about Christian or another religion's ones. Jewish articles carry far more secular content than would be allowed or accepted in regular topics. There is and will always be room for lots of different views in the Jewish Temple articles, in fact there is not a huge amount in them from a purely Jewish POV in them and all I was proposing, or requesting, was to create the correct balance but so far absolutely nothing has happened. You are misunderstanding and misusing the policies of POV by claiming the absurd, that a key subject that is inherent to a project should "not" be discussed there. That would like saying that no discussions or decisions about medical topics should be made at WP:MEDICINE unless they are first discussed somewhere else where they don't deal with medicine. Nothing wrong happened. I should hope you understand the analogy. IZAK (talk) 04:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- The problem isn't to do with the actual mechanics of the page moves (I'm not aware you did anything wrong there), it is that the move requests were not listed at WP:RM and the discussions about moving the page was held in a forum where a particular POV was likely to prevail. You even opened the disucssion by talking about "confusion...stemming from opposing secular and religious scholarly outlooks" and suggesting that certain articles should be renames on the basis that they "belong" to Judaism. This, I think, is out of line with the normal spirit of inclusiveness and NPOV on WP. --FormerIP (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- FormerIP: As I have clarified, once the discussions reached a consensus I could have easily moved the pages to "First Temple (Judaism)", "Second Temple (Judaism)", "Third Temple (Judaism)" which were empty, open unused red link pages that I had created. There would have been no problem with that. I made a technical error by not moving the pages with the move buttons on "Solomon's Temple", "Second Temple in Jerusalem" and "Third Temple" without any problems. My mistake, and it was only a mistake, was to cut and paste instead of making the easier moves (the reason I did that is that I was working quickly and I was a little rusty about making pages moves), but I then asked User Avraham to iron out my oversight, which he did do. So please do not make a mountain out of a mole hill when nothing untoward has happened. Thank you for your understanding. IZAK (talk) 02:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The most important thing is discussions at the article talk page. It seems to me that notification was placed on all the relevant talk pages, so anyone watching the article knew about the discussion. That is our standard. That said, calling it "the Second Temple" seems to me to follow the conventions among historians and is the most common name for it, so it ought to be the title. If people call it other names, and I have no doubt that they do, we handle that through redirects, so there is never any fear of someone not finding the article. But this is the most common name. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- My understanding is that the standard is listing at RM, templating the pages and holding a discussion about each one individually, normally on their respective talk pages, Sluberstein. The notice on the Second Temple page disappeared (though I am not saying this is IZAK's fault). In any event, launching the discussion (that you were involved in) on the Judaism project talkpage with an intro effectively saying "let's do something about the non-Jewish bias on these articles" is not an appropraite way to go about it. --FormerIP (talk) 14:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- It makes no sense to say that the articles had a "non-Jewish bias" (your words) and then oppose the discussion from taking place at WP:JUDAISM. IZAK (talk) 09:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- @FormerIP: You write, "My understanding is that the standard is listing at RM," and I have no idea how this could be your interpretation of the following clause taken from the intro to the policy: "There is no obligation to list such move requests here;" you are right that there should be notification on the article talk page - but IZAK did just that, he left a message on the talk page, so anyone watching it new about the proposal and had an opportunity to weigh in.
- Why is is inappropriate to discuss an article of central importance to Judaism on the project Judaism talk page? It is not like anyone is banned from contributing to that discussion - did you post a comment which someone deleted? Isn't this article categorized under Wikiproject:Judaism? Slrubenstein | Talk 09:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- That same page, WP:RM, goes on to say that "Discussions about retitling of an article (page move) can always be carried out at the article's talk page without adding an entry here." It doesn't mention project pages. However, in general, I don't think there is a problem with discussing page moves on a project page, certainly not when (like here) multiple pages are involved and some consistency between them is wanted. The problem arises when the project is chosen to give one particular point of view preference. Even if it is a relevant PoV like here, this violates WP:NPOV and is a form of canvassing. See the comments by IZAK (who proposed the move, determined the consensus and performed the move) above: "It is logical to assume that the terms used in Judaism and by Jews should be the preferred ones for Jewish topics." This is incorrect: we don't use the terms preferred by the involved groups. Myanmar is here described in the article Burma, because that is the term most used in the English literature. Another incorrect factor in that statement, that the temple (certainly the second one) is not only a Jewish topic but also a Christian one (and all of them are general historical and archaeological ones) is therefor not relevant for a naming discussion. Fram (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think that the title of the article should follow the conventions of 1st century historians. And the most common designation is "the Second Temple." That is why I think he article should be named "the Second Temple." Slrubenstein | Talk 11:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- That same page, WP:RM, goes on to say that "Discussions about retitling of an article (page move) can always be carried out at the article's talk page without adding an entry here." It doesn't mention project pages. However, in general, I don't think there is a problem with discussing page moves on a project page, certainly not when (like here) multiple pages are involved and some consistency between them is wanted. The problem arises when the project is chosen to give one particular point of view preference. Even if it is a relevant PoV like here, this violates WP:NPOV and is a form of canvassing. See the comments by IZAK (who proposed the move, determined the consensus and performed the move) above: "It is logical to assume that the terms used in Judaism and by Jews should be the preferred ones for Jewish topics." This is incorrect: we don't use the terms preferred by the involved groups. Myanmar is here described in the article Burma, because that is the term most used in the English literature. Another incorrect factor in that statement, that the temple (certainly the second one) is not only a Jewish topic but also a Christian one (and all of them are general historical and archaeological ones) is therefor not relevant for a naming discussion. Fram (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Why is is inappropriate to discuss an article of central importance to Judaism on the project Judaism talk page? It is not like anyone is banned from contributing to that discussion - did you post a comment which someone deleted? Isn't this article categorized under Wikiproject:Judaism? Slrubenstein | Talk 09:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Fram: Everything was done in conformity with WP:NPOV -- you are dealing with highly experienced editors here and if you can show me where I have ever edited in violation of WP:NPOV I will eat my proverbial hat. PLEASE re-read every word at the very comprehensive discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Building and destroying the Beit Hamikdash where I WP:CITE beyond any shadow of a doubt that the terms "First Temple", "Second Temple", "Third Temple" are the more frequent terms based on hundreds of thousands of Google hits, so you need to WP:AGF. This is a subject central to Judaism so there is no way really to "split hairs" and say that it should be kept out of WP:JUDAISM discussions where everything relating to Jews and Judaism is up for discussion and very often editorial, naming and move decisions are made and this helps Wikipedia grow and move along. Many admins have belonged to and participated in WP:JUDAISM discussions and they are fully aware of WP policies. Nothing related to Jews or Judaism even marginally is excluded in the many years the Wikiproject has been in existence and it has only helped Wikipedia. In any case, as User Slrubenstein points out anyone monitoring those pages could read the notices about the centralized discussion I placed on each one of them and was free to join the discussion so that no one was excluded on any grounds. The objections only started after the open-ended lengthy discussions, and after WP:CONSENSUS was clearly reached, and only after moves were made without any prior involvement in the discussions themselves by subsequent objectors. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 23:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- You posted the same text twice for some reason, I'll reply only once. Your POV ic very clear, when you state in that discussion: "But not according to Judaism to which it belongs. It's about the Jewish First Temple not about how or what it's called according to an English or non-Jewish or secular POV." You are totally wrong here, what it's called from an English language PoV is the only thing that matters, not what it is called in the Torah (like your other comment there: "With more articles like this from non-Torah sources each with their own POV of course."). You are also incorrect that "The objections only started after the open-ended lengthy discussions, and after WP:CONSENSUS was clearly reached,", as Debresser objected from the very start, and Chesdovi also said "(It's common name in Hebrew does not dictate its common name in English...?)" So you have shown a clear POV based reason for your moves, and have ignored Wikipedia policies and the oposition that was stated from the very start of the discussion. Whether that is standard practive at the Project, or only your standard practice, I don't know, but it has to change in either case. Subjects related to Jews or Judaism will not be named or treated in accordance with the Torah, but in acordance with reliable independent sources (and for the naming in accordance with English language reliable independent sources). The argument (not by you) that ""Solomon's Temple" is probably more used in academia, but it is certainly Bayis Rishon and Bayis Sheini for believing Jews." is irrelevant and if an independent editor had reviewed the move discussion, instead of you, he would have discounted said argument as being not policy based. Oh, and replying to an opposer with among other comments the utterly irrelevant "you do agree that the destruction of the two temples and the butchery and exile of the Jewish people by the Babylonians and then by the Romans was proportionally and quantitatively on a par with the Nazis or perhaps even worse don't you?" is a very poor tactic as well. The majority of your replies and arguments on that page are religion based, which is the completely wrong argument to defend or oppose any article name, even for a subject that is central to a religion. Fram (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Which is why we have WP:Article title. We don't use 'this group uses this name' as a reason to ignore our guidlines. NPOV is often a red herring in discussion of article titles. Dougweller (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Earlier, I said that the title should be "Snd Temple" because that is the convention among 1st century historians. Fram asks why. What can I say? I think that the title of an article should refelect two things: the contents of the title and the nomenclature most common in academe. The second Temple period is the subjust of a great deal of scholarly research. Four about five hundred years, it is the object of research of almost exclusively historians of Jews and Judaism. During some of this time Judea was Persian Occupied, the Greek Occupied, and then independent (Jewish) but under Hellenic influcence. For the last 120 years or so it continued unbder Roman Occupation. So there is lots of scholarship about it it is not just of interest to Jews. And those historians - of Persian and Greek and Hasmonean and Roman occupied Judea, 70 years of the Temple's history extending into the first century, the convention is to call it the Second Temple. Why not follow standard current academic practice? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Bambifan101: The last straw.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
He's done it again: User:Spídér's Wéb: A Píg's Tálé 88 has been tagged and bagged. The problem here is this: I've contacted Jimbo Wales about this idiot and apparently nothing is being done.
I have blocked four or five complete IP ranges, one school IP range, reported this little freak countless times at CU, tried three times to mentor him, gotten my offers shoved in my face and still he continues.
Unless and until this freakazoid is shut down once and for all, I am off this project. Leave word on my talk page if you have any questions; my e-mail's been disabled for a little while due to a technical issue on my end. Disgusted, I remain, PMDrive1061 (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that'll sure put him in his place. Bravo, you, and keep reaching for that star. HalfShadow 03:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't you think you're feeding the troll just a tiny bit? What precisely are we supposed to do, send out the hunter-killer robots? Fences&Windows 23:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I understand your frustration, but as long as there are proxies, there will be compulsives like Bambifan. He's not unlike MascotGuy, in that he's easy to spot and catch. His edits don't last for more than a few seconds before he gets blocked. They're not bad enough to require revision deletion. I say we just keep RBIing him. NawlinWiki (talk) 23:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you want done that hasn't been tried. Sometimes, nothing works, and you just have to keep up RBI until someone changes their medication. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I understand your frustration, but as long as there are proxies, there will be compulsives like Bambifan. He's not unlike MascotGuy, in that he's easy to spot and catch. His edits don't last for more than a few seconds before he gets blocked. They're not bad enough to require revision deletion. I say we just keep RBIing him. NawlinWiki (talk) 23:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I would personally like to medicate this idiot with a very large right fist, but I make it a point not to punch people out. Kind of a general guideline in my life. Need a break anyway and I'm going to be on vacation next week; hopefully, I won't be anywhere near a computer. OK, I'll be fine...this has gone on for yearsand I just want it to stop. PMDrive1061 (talk) 00:11, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- It will. He can't possibly continue for more than another 80 years. Maybe less. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope cause some other guy will take his place. Wikipedia will always attract "Bambifan101s", the best way to combat them is to just WP:RBI.--White Shadows It's a wonderful life 00:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think PMDrive has a right to be frustrated with both the vandal and Wikipedia's impotence in dealing with that particular brand of stupidity. Has anyone ever tried filing abuse reports with his IPs? There has to be some way to get tough with these folks. Burpelson AFB (talk) 03:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could a checkuser figure out where that looney is physically located and deal with him somehow? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I feel your frustration - I've been targeted by another serial, IP hopping vandal. Just RBI. Connormahtalk 05:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've always thought the best approach to the whole abuse report thing is to schedule an in-person appointment and show up with file in hand...because then you're right there with evidence in a place where they can't just ignore it by getting off the phone asap or ignoring emails. Ks0stm (T•C•G) 08:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I feel your frustration - I've been targeted by another serial, IP hopping vandal. Just RBI. Connormahtalk 05:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could a checkuser figure out where that looney is physically located and deal with him somehow? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think PMDrive has a right to be frustrated with both the vandal and Wikipedia's impotence in dealing with that particular brand of stupidity. Has anyone ever tried filing abuse reports with his IPs? There has to be some way to get tough with these folks. Burpelson AFB (talk) 03:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope cause some other guy will take his place. Wikipedia will always attract "Bambifan101s", the best way to combat them is to just WP:RBI.--White Shadows It's a wonderful life 00:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some of you may recall that I was really wrapped up in combatting this serial idiot a ways back. I felt the same frustration, but I dealt with it by removing all the BF target pages from my watchlist. Enough users are aware of the problem now that the same two or three users don't have to do all the work anymore. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, there is a technical solution here. The edit filter can see the underlying IP range from registered users, we've just disabled that because of privacy sensitivities. Re-enabling that would go a long way towards preventing edits from editors like Bambifan101 and Brexx. I get very frustrated dealing with this crap for pretty much the same reasons at PMDrive1061: it feels futile at times, and knowing there are technical fixes for most of it makes it worse.—Kww(talk) 20:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Does WP:NPA not apply here?
I'm less concerned by the application of the terms "freakazoid", "idiot", and "looney" in the above section than I am with the general pattern of comments made by User:PMDrive1061 who is an admin and should therefore make a better attempt to follow our policies. Some recent samples: Far more troubling is the overt threat of violence "I would personally like to medicate this idiot with a very large right fist...". There is absolutely no justification for this type of comment. This seems to be a recurring pattern for PMDrive1061 (although I have just used recent examples). PMDrive1061 seems to get stressed out by "vandal fighting", which is precisely why he should not be involved in this area. Note also that a user brought a complaint to ANI PMDrive1061 told a user to "piss off" (page now deleted by PMDrive1061) but it was deleted and ignored. Sometimes even the trolls are right. This pattern should not be allowed to continue - at the very least, PMDrive1061 needs to voluntarily withdraw from "vandal fighting" and leave it to admins who are able to WP:RBI, but I think a block may be in order for the threat of violence. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
|
Good grief. I hit a wall after cleaning up after this kid for four years. That's why I posted my frustration here. I have, until now, refrained from using really vile language to describe him. His behavior is simply unacceptable and no one who actually pays to run this project seems to be aware of what goes on in the trenches. As for the language, mea culpa. That's why I'm taking a break and apologize for the drama. As for the "piss off" comment, it was made to a sockpuppeteer spamming on behalf of some pharmaceutical firm who first told me to do likewise and wished for me to become sick so that they could "withhold" medication. Another sockpuppet cried foul and "reported" me for the comment. Sorry if I opened up a can of worms, but between those vile, unrelenting insults hurled at us through 4chan/ED and the unrelenting attacks by Bambifan, I just boiled over. By the way, my "threat of violence" was meant as a joke if you'll read the rest of the comment. I have no real desire to physically harm anyone, let alone some kid. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- One point to note though, if you show frustration with colourful comments then it is more likely to lead to further mischieviousness - bit like getting a reaction from teasing. I do think it is probably easier just shouting an expletive at the computer screen while typing calm and neutral language rather than typing out frustrated words (???) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, if you express too much frustration, then they know they've won. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have blocked Delicious carbuncle
A quick look at Dc's most recent contributions shows that they were making pointy edits to WP:NPA to "reflect" the discussion above, and edit warring to keep them there. I considered it disruptive, and blocked them 24 hours. Since I was involved in the above discussion, and had previously blocked Bc, I feel my block should be reviewed and varied if considered appropriate. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Reviewed edits. Good block. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think this block was unnecessary and punitive. Delicious Carbuncle is a regular contributor and was given no warning of any kind. I do agree that his edits to WP:NPA were POINTy and unncessary - but a block was neither necessary nor helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think your opinion is in the minority here. Delicious Carbuncle was effectively harassing another regular contributor who was clearly showing signs of burnout. Sometimes we should ignore the rules out of respect for our fellow unpaid & far too often underappreciated volunteers, & not worry about the tender feelings of some vandal who is wasting our oxygen. -- llywrch (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Jimbo, I know this is your site, but you haven't dealt with DC. He has drove at least three users away, harrassed a fourth, put me in semi-retirement for 4 months, causes problems wherever he seens fit, trolls the Wiki for nonsense and makes long, never ending threads about them, I could go on. DC needed to be blocked a long, long, long damned time ago. I would die a happy man if DC was never seen on this site again, but I will have to wait for that. Jimbo, good block by LessHeard, best damn block I have seen in weeks, and ZERO need for overturning it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unnecessary, perhaps - I did consider warning, but the reverts to NPA were against good faith corrections of Dc's edits lead me to believe that they were not interested in communication - but a matter of opinion, but never punitive; I don't do that. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Considering that DC does not view the edits as pointy [52], I don't see how the block could be considered punitive and not preventative. Obviously if they don't see the problem, why would they stop being disruptive? --Smashvilletalk 14:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- It would have taken only a few seconds to say "Your edits to NPA are POINTy, stop doing that or I will block you." I think there is no question he would have stopped, even if he didn't agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, it concerns me that a user was blocked without warning because they were arguing a point that was unpopular. It comes across as being very heavy handed. While I don't agree with a lot of what DC was saying, a warning would have been a good start. I have seen far worse behaviour not resulting in blocks in the past. G
ainLine ♠ ♥ 18:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC) - The problem with that line of thought, Jimmy, is that it leads to an editor forming the belief that they can edit war to make a point, inserting the material three times over a period of over two hours, up to the point that they are threatened with a block. Contrary to what you may wish to think, a block has more than a preventative effect (although prevention was sorely needed in this case); it also strongly reinforces the lesson not to do it again. Personally, I do not see that as punitive, but as an extension of prevention, YMMV. The block may have been harsh, but well within normal practice, LHvU. --RexxS (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. A regular here edit-warring on a policy page should not need to be warned -- they should know better. Requiring a warning under these circumstances is a license to disrupt.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- He wasn't blocked because he had an unpopular point of view. He was blocked for edit warring on a core policy page in order to make a point (a particularly baseless point, but that doesn't really matter). Jimbo is entitled to believe that DC would have stopped edit warring if we asked him to, but I don't think that's a hardline requirement before blocking in this instance. Admins aren't clairvoyant, but looking at his contribs immediately before he was blocked gives me the impression he was on a tear and hadn't stopped at the moment of decision. Protonk (talk) 20:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, it concerns me that a user was blocked without warning because they were arguing a point that was unpopular. It comes across as being very heavy handed. While I don't agree with a lot of what DC was saying, a warning would have been a good start. I have seen far worse behaviour not resulting in blocks in the past. G
- It would have taken only a few seconds to say "Your edits to NPA are POINTy, stop doing that or I will block you." I think there is no question he would have stopped, even if he didn't agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think your opinion is in the minority here. Delicious Carbuncle was effectively harassing another regular contributor who was clearly showing signs of burnout. Sometimes we should ignore the rules out of respect for our fellow unpaid & far too often underappreciated volunteers, & not worry about the tender feelings of some vandal who is wasting our oxygen. -- llywrch (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think this block was unnecessary and punitive. Delicious Carbuncle is a regular contributor and was given no warning of any kind. I do agree that his edits to WP:NPA were POINTy and unncessary - but a block was neither necessary nor helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, I feel that the block placed on me by LessHeard vanU was unnecessary. I have to give LessHeard credit where credit is due for once having blocked User:David Shankbone for calling another editor a "cunt", and I didn't make a fuss when they blocked me previously in what they admit was abuse of their admin powers, but I would prefer not to become a favourite target of theirs.
I waited out my block rather than inflame the situation, but look at the facts - I made good faith edits to a policy based on what is clearly common practice, even just based on this thread. I was reverted with no explanation by a shared UK GOV IP, and then by an IP whose edit summary was "rv. Delicious carbuncle needs to give some thought to finding a new hobby if he is going to behave like a juvenile.". Would anyone care to own up to that one? I was perfectly willing to discuss my changes, but neither of those to reverts seemed like anything other than someone trying to be annoying. Incidentally, I will start a discussion on the policy's talk page soon. In the meantime, let me point out the following ignored breaches of WP:NPA just in this thread:
- User:PMDrive1061 - "idiot", "litle freak", "freakazoid", and "I would personally like to medicate this idiot with a very large right fist"
- User:Beeblebrox - "this serial idiot"
- User:FisherQueen - "Well, the 'retarded apes' comment was directed at 4chan vandals. I believe that's a scientifically accurate description of them."
- User:HalfShadow - "4chan aren't people. I firmly believe the members are some form of cockroach. I may go so high as 'rodent'."
Three of those are by admins. Are they serious breaches? For the most part, no, but it is ridiculous to pretend that the policy is being followed as currently written. We should either change the policy or change our behaviour. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree with the block for the same reasons as given by Jimbo. A warning could have been given first. Only when you know beforehand that this is pointless, e.g. based on the block log, you could decide to block rather than e.g. engage in a long discussion. It can be the case that you suspect that such discussions would escalate in insults leading to an even longer block. But I don't think that in this case this was a factor to consider.
- Then the edits the dispute is about were made in a pointy way, but there is clearly an issue here that the NPA article should address. DC did not do that in a reasonable way, but it seems to me that there should be a section in that article devoted to dealing with problem editors. Count Iblis (talk) 22:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Anonymous is not a member of the wikipedia community. Bambiefan is not a member of the wikipedia community. Casting aspersions at 4chan or at whataver malign soul is behing bambiefan may be poor form, but it isn't against any sensible policy we adhere to. There are general suggestions, such as "don't insult the vandals" and explicit prohibitions against personally insulting users on the site. But there is no and should be no wikipedia policy which restricts me from talking freely about people outside the wikipedia community (w/in the confines of BLP and NOT). I assume you are merely confusing prohibitions designed to make the community work, and not purposefully missing the point. But I'm growing less sure of that. Protonk (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm clearly not smart enough to get understand the subtlety here, Protonk, but you appear to be saying that you both think I should have been blocked for my changes to WP:NPA and stating a position that exactly corresponds with the changes I was blocked ofr making. What am I missing? (And this section of WP:NPA defines "every person who edits an article" as a "Wikipedian" - if that's not the case, let's change it...) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Look. Your opinions about NPA are your own. you were blocked because immediately following the closure of a block discussion you initiated you went off to change a policy page in a POINTy manner. The underlying dispute over what NPA should say is almost immaterial. Focusing on it misses the point. In fact, focusing on it obscures the point. Protonk (talk) 00:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the comments which were called out were venting - which we understand. But venting is inherently unprofessional (as it were). It's tolerated, because people are human, but it's still unprofessional.
- We should minimize using it for a couple of good reasons, one being that it makes us look bad to outsiders. All of what's on Wikipedia is "on the record" - it may show up in the Media, in outsider complaints about how we run things, and excessive behavior along these lines gives people an impression that we're a locker room full of jocks rather than a bunch of encyclopedia writers with a serious committment to information quality, freedom, and a good set of core values and policies.
- Also, a lot of people see the terms in use and then start using them against other Wikipedians, where it's much less appropriate.
- Regarding the POINTyness of the particular edit here - it was pretty much the definition of POINT. Whether blocking immediately was an appropriate response or not I don't know. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- You understand the subtlety yet don't WP:HEAR the point. In fact DC remains one of the most masterful pointy editors anyone has had the displeasure of "working" with. No concern for anyone who agrees with their POV however, just everyone else and editors who shrug off the constant ANI groupie activity and trouble-stirring. Media parent (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- An account with all of 3 edits is insinuating that I'm a sockmaster? Funny stuff. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You understand the subtlety yet don't WP:HEAR the point. In fact DC remains one of the most masterful pointy editors anyone has had the displeasure of "working" with. No concern for anyone who agrees with their POV however, just everyone else and editors who shrug off the constant ANI groupie activity and trouble-stirring. Media parent (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm clearly not smart enough to get understand the subtlety here, Protonk, but you appear to be saying that you both think I should have been blocked for my changes to WP:NPA and stating a position that exactly corresponds with the changes I was blocked ofr making. What am I missing? (And this section of WP:NPA defines "every person who edits an article" as a "Wikipedian" - if that's not the case, let's change it...) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Anonymous is not a member of the wikipedia community. Bambiefan is not a member of the wikipedia community. Casting aspersions at 4chan or at whataver malign soul is behing bambiefan may be poor form, but it isn't against any sensible policy we adhere to. There are general suggestions, such as "don't insult the vandals" and explicit prohibitions against personally insulting users on the site. But there is no and should be no wikipedia policy which restricts me from talking freely about people outside the wikipedia community (w/in the confines of BLP and NOT). I assume you are merely confusing prohibitions designed to make the community work, and not purposefully missing the point. But I'm growing less sure of that. Protonk (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wait? Bambifan101 is still active? I feel sorry for those who have dealt with him all this time! --Rockstonetalk to me! 19:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also, WP:NPA shouldn't apply when we are talking about someone who has caused mountains and mountains of stress. I stand by the fact that Bambifan101 IS indeed a pest. --Rockstonetalk to me! 19:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Coda
Despite User:Neutralhomer's extremely inflammatory comment in this latest discussion, I didn't rise to the bait. This thread was archived by Neutralhomer, however, in direct violation of conditions he agreed to in what was termed a "final warning" in order to have an indef block lifted. I have no objection to this thread being closed, but I'm tired of Neutralhomer's attempts to disrupt any ANI discussion that I initiate and ask that the conditions of his unblock agreement be enforced. In an entirely unrelated matter, perhaps a checkuser with nothing better to do might look into the spate of SPA accounts that have recently been attempting to annoy me (such as User:Media parent above). Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- DC, what to do with you. This is exactly what I was talking about. Continous, never-ending, ANI threads on anyone and everyone who seems to piss you off. You dig into archives to get dirt and use that at your will. This isn't your playpen. Might I remind you why we are here. It isn't for MOAR DRAMAHZ! it is to build an encyclopedia constructively, not run off people who piss us off (another activity you think is part of this website). If you can't build that encyclopedia constructively and you think this is a bunch of MOAR DRAMAHZ, then please consult the "sign out" button at the top right of your screen.
- Now, as to the reason I closed this thread. The first thread was "dead" and the result was "RBI the socks", the second was "dead" and the result was "PMDrive1061 didn't break NPA" and the third was drawing far too much heat (especially with your "who's sock are you?" comment) and the result was "DC's block has expired". This thread is over, done, finito. It is, in fact, pining for the Fjords (consult Dead Parrot sketch for more on that). There isn't more to talk about. Just endless digs at other users and constant DRAMAHZ! that just isn't necessary. Move on, Dude. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh and per my prior instructions (which I had intend forgotten about) I will leave this to other users and admins. I seriously need a list of prior instructions, my memory sucks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, that was what Neutralhomer was precisely warned not to do. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Jehochman Talk 00:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, and I ain't perfect. I per ask the community to please put a list of my prior restrictions in my userspace so I can remember what the hell they are. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- So, Jehochman, now that I've brought it to your attention and you concur that it is a violation of that agreement, do you plan to do anything about it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- DC, let me ask you a question. What exactly have I done to you, besides disagree with you, that has pissed you off so bad, that you are currently, actively, looking and asking and admin to block me. What exactly have I done? Besides disagree with you, not accept your points and close your dicussion. What have I done? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- So, Jehochman, now that I've brought it to your attention and you concur that it is a violation of that agreement, do you plan to do anything about it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, and I ain't perfect. I per ask the community to please put a list of my prior restrictions in my userspace so I can remember what the hell they are. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz edit-warring across articles with several editors
Normally I would take this to the edit-warring board, but this is broader and speaks to larger behavioral issues-civility, 3RR, editwarring, and ignoring multiply-cited Wikipedia policies and other editors requests to talk.
The dozen articles have to do with Japanese adult video actresses. This is a subject many find touchy, but Wikipedia is not censored, and each image has a proper and comprehensive fair-use rationale. Japanese laws have particular requirements that private photos of celebrities are most-often out of bounds, so for AV actresses, separate rules apply, which have been pointed out to User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. On his userpage, he states "The last time I did what I could to follow policy. But I was regularly hounded by aggressive editors because they did not want to." The three editors he is warring with have kept fully within policy, it is he that is being aggressive. I hesitate to label it a crusade, but jihad is a little strong.
Users Testales, Dekkappai and I have repeatedly directed Hullaballoo Wolfowitz to please read WP:NFC#UULP and Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography#Acceptable sources of fair use photos before removing images.
Articles I am aware of include Junko Miyashita, Bunko Kanazawa, Madoka Ozawa, Haruki Mizuno, Manami Yoshii, Kei Mizutani, Kazuko Shirakawa...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nao_Saejima&action=history example of one I was not involved in, just to see the course of things
--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I want to point out that existing copyrighted images can be made free by the copyright holder through a license or a complete release into the public domain. Whatever right of publicity an actress may enjoy in Japan does not override the fact that the copyright holder (normally the photographer or the company that paid for the shoot) controls how the picture is used according to US law, not the subject. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think the issue here is over the images. We can discuss those and determine their appropriateness. The issue here is Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' continuous edit-warring. When reverted he, without fail, simply reverts. Whether he is right or wrong in individual cases is one thing. The issue here is that he nearly always gets his way through strong-arm editing tactics. I think he has made several good editors sick and tired of this behavior, and that is what this notice is about. Dekkappai (talk) 04:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know what the etiquette is in terms of displaying disputed non-free images. I know that clear copyright violations should be removed immediately but don't know beyond that. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hullaballoo's edit-warring goes far beyond the removal of Fair use images. Characterizing legal Fair use as "copyright violation" does not change this. Dekkappai (talk) 04:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Looking over the applicable policy, WP:NFCC, "Instead, the file should be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale, or a suitable rationale added" and "Note that it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created—see burden of proof" applies here. Saying that no new free content can be created because a person is too old or protects her privacy is not true and may not be a valid rationale. It would be nice for HW to explain why he thinks the rationale is not valid or suitable. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- For the last time: This is not a discussion of fair use images. This is a discussion of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' editing behavior. Had HE instigated such a discussion in this case and in many, many other cases, he and the many editors he has instead offended or driven off Wikipedia could have come to an amicable agreement. Dekkappai (talk) 05:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The edit warring is over the images though. The burden of proof to show that something adheres to policy is on the editor who adds the item. Are there examples of the editors actually trying to initiate discussion with HW explaining how it does comply before adding the images back? Are there specific examples of HW responding or ignoring the discussion? These are diffs that admins will need to look at rather than try to dig through the article histories. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:30, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- For the last time: This is not a discussion of fair use images. This is a discussion of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' editing behavior. Had HE instigated such a discussion in this case and in many, many other cases, he and the many editors he has instead offended or driven off Wikipedia could have come to an amicable agreement. Dekkappai (talk) 05:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Looking over the applicable policy, WP:NFCC, "Instead, the file should be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale, or a suitable rationale added" and "Note that it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created—see burden of proof" applies here. Saying that no new free content can be created because a person is too old or protects her privacy is not true and may not be a valid rationale. It would be nice for HW to explain why he thinks the rationale is not valid or suitable. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hullaballoo's edit-warring goes far beyond the removal of Fair use images. Characterizing legal Fair use as "copyright violation" does not change this. Dekkappai (talk) 04:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know what the etiquette is in terms of displaying disputed non-free images. I know that clear copyright violations should be removed immediately but don't know beyond that. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
No, this is not a discussion of images. There is a long history behind Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' hyper-agressive editing. Please do not further attempt to derail the discussion to fair use image policy. I did not get involved in this after Hullaballoo first removed these images-- all my uploads. I was tired of this editor's non-stop battle tactics, and was in fact prepared to let him have these. I resent my time being used in this forum as well-- I am here at Wikipedia to contribute content, not to play these childish battle games which editors like Hullaballoo Wolfowitz create. The editing history of the pages below show that I did not get involved until other editors raised objections. It was the fact that Hullaballoo steam-rolled over them that got me involved. For just one example of the recent spate of edit-wars:
- Junko Miyashita
- HB removes image
- User:Testales restores image citing: WP:NFC#UULP and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pornography#Acceptable_sources_of_fair_use_photos.
- Rather than follow Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Hullaballoo instigates an edit war by reverting
- I step in and revert Hullaballoo encouraging him to discuss
- He does not discuss, but reverts me
The exact same pattern can be seen at: Kazuko Shirakawa, Bunko Kanazawa, Kei Mizutani, Marina Matsushima, Nao Saejima, Haruki Mizuno, Madoka Ozawa, Manami Yoshii, and Kimiko Matsuzaka. Again, this is all just one instance of this editor's agressive editing technique, but to cite even a fraction would be far beyond the scope of this page. A full RfC is probably in order. Dekkappai (talk) 06:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I see that the discussion on both sides in the Miyashita example is inadequate since they are solely using the edit summaries to do this. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- And do you also see that it is one editor warring against several? That is the point of this ANI, and you have been asked to address this specific already. Please do so.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- A bunch of members of the wanking fraternity (sum of all human knowledge, you know) complaining that perhaps innapproprietly licensed images are being removed? I'm shocked.Bali ultimate (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, what a well founded and sophisticated formulated reply. Maybe you can write it a bit more insulting?! I am shocked even more. If you have problem with pornography, please keep it for yourself. If you see despite Wikipedia:Sexual_content a problem with pornography related topics beeing part of the Wikipedia main project, I would even agree with you. But in this case you should consider to put that up for discussion at a more suitable place. I will write more later on the actual subject, so please see this just as a reminder to keep this discussion at a certain level. Testales (talk) 13:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, let me be direct. No I don't have a "problem" with pornography -- an occasional consumer of it myself and I believe that there should be plenty of coverage of the subject in an encyclopedia -- from truly famous pornographic movies, to some discussion of genres, to sociological/political looks at it. What i have a problem with is a bunch of fanboys scrabbling around filing wikipedia with as much non-notable soft-porn as possible, and then complaining when someone takes notice and tries to clean up after them. I mean look at this articles created list: [53] which includes vital encyclopedia content like Sister-in-Law's Wet Thighs, Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil and Continuous Adultery 2: A Portrait of Incest between Sisters. The wanking community needs less input on content here, not more.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have anything of value to say? If you think any of those notable, award-winning erotic films are unworthy of articles, take them to AfD. In either case not one comment, not one personal attack, not one display of ignorance, bias and prudery that you have made here is of any relevance whatsoever. I'd suggest you apologize and leave this discussion unless you can say something constructive about the actual issue. Dekkappai (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well played sir. "Fourth place" at something called the "Pink Grand Prix" definitely justifies the loving treatment you've devoted to Sister-in-Law's Wet Thighs. Yes, I guess the wanking material must stay then. The stuff all fails the GNG, but there simply aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with your emissions. Someday, maybe, actual standards will be set and this stuff can be cleaned up wholesale. In the meantime, good on wolfowitz for trying to do the right thing.Bali ultimate (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Again, if you have issues here, this is WRONG place. If you are not happy with the current WP:GNG, WP:NF or WP:PORNBIO go to the related talk page and DISCUSS. Until this you have absolutely no right to disapprove the work of other editors. I am also very aware of the work that Dekkappai does and I was also critical to that and I am still regarding some aspects, see this and that for example. But if there should be additional and special restrictions for adding Pornography related information then this can surely not be solved within the scope of WP:P*. These "non-notable soft-porn" films (does soft increase or decrease the value btw.?!) have won notable prizes and it also seems that especially Pink films can not easily be compared with certain western low budget trash productions, they seem have a much higher cultural value as one may expect. But either way, calling hardworking (and truly!) contributing editors like Dekkappai "fanboys" is without any doubt a serious personal attack. Testales (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Obviously, you and I disagree. I think this is the RIGHT place to discuss problem editors. My ultimate hope is to draw attention and to convince people with power to eventually take action. I understand you're not happy that scrutiny has shifted onto you and the folks you made this complaint with. So it goes. The de-bodiced images placed on wikipedia to promote the films are soft-porn. My problem with them is that none of them approach, or could even begin to approach, proper encyclopedia articles (since there's no scholarly consideration of these individual films, no reviews outside the porn-industry marketing conspecifics, no consideration of their merit and importance set within a larger context, etc...) My objection to this content is much the same (philosophically) as my objection to a great deal of wikipedia content that has nothing to do with pornography. There is nothing remotely educational or enlightening about these "articles." In Dekkappai's case, it's basically just a video directory for people who like to masturbate to rape fantasies and the like. Since the subjects are frequently illustrated with pictures of purely prurient interest (that are generally not fair use), that the "actresses" frequently wish their past in porn forgotten when they leave the industry, since the articles are maintained and compiled by obsessives from within a walled garden, I suppose the porn is a bit worse in my eyes than, say, the obsessive science fiction and video game ghettos. Again: I understand why you'd like to make this about one editors conduct rather than content. I just happen to believe that the underlying content issues are the ones to focus on.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have anything of value to say? If you think any of those notable, award-winning erotic films are unworthy of articles, take them to AfD. In either case not one comment, not one personal attack, not one display of ignorance, bias and prudery that you have made here is of any relevance whatsoever. I'd suggest you apologize and leave this discussion unless you can say something constructive about the actual issue. Dekkappai (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, let me be direct. No I don't have a "problem" with pornography -- an occasional consumer of it myself and I believe that there should be plenty of coverage of the subject in an encyclopedia -- from truly famous pornographic movies, to some discussion of genres, to sociological/political looks at it. What i have a problem with is a bunch of fanboys scrabbling around filing wikipedia with as much non-notable soft-porn as possible, and then complaining when someone takes notice and tries to clean up after them. I mean look at this articles created list: [53] which includes vital encyclopedia content like Sister-in-Law's Wet Thighs, Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil and Continuous Adultery 2: A Portrait of Incest between Sisters. The wanking community needs less input on content here, not more.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, what a well founded and sophisticated formulated reply. Maybe you can write it a bit more insulting?! I am shocked even more. If you have problem with pornography, please keep it for yourself. If you see despite Wikipedia:Sexual_content a problem with pornography related topics beeing part of the Wikipedia main project, I would even agree with you. But in this case you should consider to put that up for discussion at a more suitable place. I will write more later on the actual subject, so please see this just as a reminder to keep this discussion at a certain level. Testales (talk) 13:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- A bunch of members of the wanking fraternity (sum of all human knowledge, you know) complaining that perhaps innapproprietly licensed images are being removed? I'm shocked.Bali ultimate (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- And do you also see that it is one editor warring against several? That is the point of this ANI, and you have been asked to address this specific already. Please do so.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Looks to me like Hullabaloo is in the clear here: WP:3RR grants an exemption to "Removal of clear copyright violations or content that unquestionably violates the non-free content policy", and the example above certainly seems to fall into that category. Wikiproject guidelines cannot create an exemption to WP:NFCC, and any Japanese laws concerning fair use have no impact on Wikipedia, making the images wholly replaceable.—Kww(talk) 14:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Then what did he have to lose by discussing rather than edit-warring? Dekkappai (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Discussing would have been better. Ultimately, though, all those images have to go. If he had notified me (or probably most admins) of the problem he was facing, he could have received assistance as well. This is one of those cases where the people reporting the problem are more at fault than the one being reported: removing NFCC violations is the obligation of all editors and admins, while chronically inserting them can result in blocks.—Kww(talk) 14:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not discussing is what caused this issue to come to a head. I was long prepared to see all these images removed. They are not the issue. The edit-warring is the issue. Other editors brought up concerns which needed discussing-- and which, though it doesn't matter here, you ignore. Even had they eventually been thrown out, the place for that discussion was THEN, not here. The issue here is Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' constantly aggressive, edit-warring behavior. Here is another recent example. This one doesn't involve images:
- Rather than tagging for sourcing, he simply removes a list of interviewees in a film
- He is reverted noting that the film is the source (a WikiProject film guideline with which I happen to disagree)
- Rather than discuss, Hullaballoo reverts, instigating an edit-war
- After an editor takes up the task of sourcing each name, Hullaballoo Again deletes the list
- a third editor reverts Hullaballoo
- :::Hullaballoo again blindly reverts
- Not discussing is what caused this issue to come to a head. I was long prepared to see all these images removed. They are not the issue. The edit-warring is the issue. Other editors brought up concerns which needed discussing-- and which, though it doesn't matter here, you ignore. Even had they eventually been thrown out, the place for that discussion was THEN, not here. The issue here is Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' constantly aggressive, edit-warring behavior. Here is another recent example. This one doesn't involve images:
- Discussing would have been better. Ultimately, though, all those images have to go. If he had notified me (or probably most admins) of the problem he was facing, he could have received assistance as well. This is one of those cases where the people reporting the problem are more at fault than the one being reported: removing NFCC violations is the obligation of all editors and admins, while chronically inserting them can result in blocks.—Kww(talk) 14:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Again, this has nothing to do with images-- I was long prepared to see those images removed anyway. This has to do with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' CONSTANT edit-warring. Dekkappai (talk) 14:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh-- your reference to Japanese law was confusing at first, because no one has made such a reference. The references the other side made were to Wikipedia policy. Your use of this imaginary claim to join in Hullaballoo's edit-warring, just because you think he is in the right, confirms the faith expressed in you at your RfA, KWW. Dekkappai (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC) Let me explain what I see here: The issue-- HB's edit-warring and aggressive editing patters-- are OK as long as certain Admins agree with his position. So much for "consensus", and I am out of here. Dekkappai (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- As an admin, I am responsible for upholding WP:NFCC. Most people who voted in my RFA expressed faith that I understood policies and would enforce them fairly. I believe I have done so. As noted above, removing NFCC violations is an explicit exemption to 3RR. Doing so to the same article repetitively is no more of a problem than repeatedly removing vandalism. That's the issue you face: HW has not committed any offense against Wikipedia policies or guidelines by repeatedly removing these images.—Kww(talk) 14:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have come across the user at issue in addressing a similar discussion, and I came away with a good impression of his understanding of Wikipedia's policies. We are dealing here with sticky issues of copyright and BLP issues (not arising in this particular case, but in other articles that this editor works on). He is, obviously, a stickler who does not always take the time to communicate his concerns in a way that makes others feel that they have been addressed civilly. However, he is largely on the right side of policy. I would suggest that he bring these issues here before reverting an alleged copyvio addition a second time. Other than that, I do not think administrative action is warranted at this time. bd2412 T 15:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Another recent instance of Hullaballoo's edit-warring and bullying can be seen in the history of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Seven_Minutes_(film)&action=history where he repeatedly removed sourced information eventually leading to the article's protecting, and then a ridiculous level of over-sourcing to quell his alleged concerns. (Russ Meyer known as "King of the nudies?" nine sources for that potential BLP violation...) But, as the ignoring of the above non-image-releated second example shows, the point of this discussion is being purposely avoided in line with ideological biases. Some openly stated, others hidden by unrelated policy discussion... Dekkappai (talk) 17:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Off-topic In regard to these pictures, I have one question that should Wikipedia use nude picture such as in the article Kaoru Kuroki? It should be a image with high commercial value which is described in point 2 of the WP:NFCC. And I also think that nude pictures like this one are the reason why Hullaballoo Wolfowitz act so aggressively.--AM (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not really off-topic. The fair-use argument is predicated on the concept that Japanese law applies to Wikipedia, which is not true.—Kww(talk) 18:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- So now we're supposed to believe that the reason for Hullaballoo's edit-warring over content, images and sourcing is because of... one image he didn't remove? Makes as much sense as the "Japanese law" argument Kww is refuting, I suppose, which, again, no one ever mentioned during HB's Wiki-approved edit-wars. Why not join the edit-war and threaten blocking too? Might get you an Adminship here. Again: The images can go. And they would have without controversy if Hullaballoo had not instigated edit-warring. Hullaballoo's behavior in many, many articles is the issue here. The images are just the LAST instance of his violation. Dekkappai (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Off-topic In regard to these pictures, I have one question that should Wikipedia use nude picture such as in the article Kaoru Kuroki? It should be a image with high commercial value which is described in point 2 of the WP:NFCC. And I also think that nude pictures like this one are the reason why Hullaballoo Wolfowitz act so aggressively.--AM (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The reason for my assumption is come from this edit. I think that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz don't like to see a gallery of content which is both erotic and non-free. Nevertheless, noone answer my concern yet. Should we use copyrighted and erotic contents to illustrate these kind of articles (assuming that these uses are fair enough)?--AM (talk) 02:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble following this logic: If wolfowitz hadn't tried to remove the images they... would have been removed anyway? And appropriately trying to remove copyrighted images was the problem because it led to edit warring on the part of editors (including yourself) who wanted the images to remain? But you don't really care about the images anyways (i.e. "they can go.")? And compounding the problem was another editor joining in and helping to remove the problem images (the images you say you don't care about but are the "last instance of (wolfowitz') violation)? And the "Japanese law argument" that was brought up by the original complainer, right here on this page, was not in fact ever made? It's all so confusing.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm coming in late today on this, and find that I have very little to add to the analysis of Morbidthoughts and, in particular, the thoughtful comments of Kww. Where other editors have attempted to meet the burden required to meet NFCC requirements, I've participated in discussion, as at Talk:Nao_Saejima and given even fuller explanation at User_talk:Tabercil#HB_at_it_again and at Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2010_July_27#File:Kimiko_Matsuzaka.jpg. Without any substantive defense of such dubious content (as Bali Ultimate and others pointed out last year in a BLP dispute we were both involved in), requiring editors removing that content to engage in extended discussions simply frustrates policy enforcement. The underlying issue is a well-settled policy question; as is demonstrated, for example, in the extended discussion over the use of a nonfree image in the Twiggy article, the exception suggested in WP:NFC#UULP is rarely allowed, and requires specific, well-referenced textual support. On the other hand, statements like one referring to the subject's "big bust," as is the case in one of the articles in dispute, hardly require visual aids to be properly understood.
Dekkappai and I have been engaged in a long-running series of content disputes over BLP sourcing, and from the beginning [54] [55] [56] [57] Dekkappai has engaged in uncivil personal attacks, a pattern which extends to his comments on other editors (note, for example, this edit summary from the current discussion [[58]]). I hope greater attention is paid to this behavior in the future; it is disruptive and deters participation by other editors. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
At this point, it is apparent that nothing relevant to the purpose of this noticeboard will come from further discussion of the topic. I suggest closure of this discussion. Policy disputes can be handled elsewhere. bd2412 T 20:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Refocusing on the behavioral complaint
Comment: This entire discussion has become pointless at the moment an administrator demonstrated that WP:BATTLE can very well lead to success. It might have been understandable to do such a mass-revert again while the discussion is still running if there were a reason of urgency but I can't see any. The very root of this is - I repeat it once again - that small policy note of WP:NFC#UULP which even has an own shortcut. As despite at lot of pointing to that it was continously completly and simply ignored, I will quote the deciding part again too.
"However, for some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable.".
Several of the models in question have retired and/or have visually changed a lot. Furthermore the notability of a model is inherently connected with his or her visual appearance. Porn stars are usually models too, some even get shoot for erotic art and by notable photographers and notable magazines. It should also be obvious that a very ugly actor can not become notable in that business. At least I have never seen or heard that say a distorted or handicapped actor has been given a regular and notable award even though there are handicapped and distorted actors doing pornography. Very old people who start in pornography are not awarded or notable either here although there is apparently some demand for grandmas having sex on camera. So it should be absolutly obvious that [[WP:NFC#UULP] can be applied here without any doubt and this was also the reason why this time some editors rebelled against Hullaboos agressive and massive deleting/reverting every day. It should be obvious but no... As it is impossible for some people to admit mistakes but also hard to just override what a policy page clearly explains (and only having WP:NFCC would leave A LOT of room for interpreation), some ridiculous justification is improvised. I seriously doubt that there would be consensus in the claim that the visual appearance is not important for a model's success. I also get the STRONG impression that there is actually a proxy war behind the scenes, waged by some people who are very unhappy of having pornographic topics on Wikipedia. I think Bali ultimate was very direct here, even going to personal attacks which makes wonder whether Wikipedia:CIV is accepted to be ignored for some topics. I also read several statements regarding that which clearly prove no deeper knowlegde, just the impression one may get at a quick glance and biased with the base attitude that there is no way pornography can be notable or were notabilitly can be reduced to "their willingness to have sex in a studio with bright lights and cameras." as Kww puts it "thoughtfully".
Regarding Hullaboo, no he nas not broken clearly any policy rules. He is also super active but I doubt that he in his many 1000s of edits has added a single byte of new information. He also completly seems to ignore any constructive ideas behind WP:RV, including the very basic advice "reword rather than revert". At least I have never seen him actually improving something or trying to find a better source. There is always only reverting and deletion. (Feel free to prove me wrong.) That may be against the idea that was originally behind Wikipedia but it is not against the current "rules".
Furthermore it is plain wrong (to say it nicely!), that there was no substantive defense. In fact it took several reverts by other editors to make Hullaboo even start to discuss and even then he "left" [the middle]. Instead of that, he created a IfD. While it may bascially be a good idea to have a representative case that was firstly quite late and secondly he didn't even leave a note on the already ongoing discussion. I furthermore see no clue for "the exception suggested in WP:NFC#UULP is rarely allowed, and requires specific, well-referenced textual support". I also doubt that this is only suggested as policies are "binding" and not mere guidelines. There is also no indication for rare aside the point that non-free material should generally be used rarely. He never brought up this argument anyway.
So this is the situation here: An admin says the visual appearance of models doesn't matter and therefore the rule doesn't apply and an editor claiming that this rule is rare exception that is only suggested and needs also well-referenced textual support (whatever this would mean in this conext). I am always suprised how even for very simple and clear rules there are always people who are still able to interpret them in a different way.
I initially planned to add some links here which may enlight a bit the typical behaviour of Hullaboo usually beeing not very communicative (nicely said again) and always in clear contrast to WP:RV but the unopposed harsh statements of User:Bali ultimate) and the quick and symbolic actions of an administrator make that rather pointless. That also shows there are is apparently a problem with at least pornography related topics that must be discussed in wider scope - on a different place.
Testales (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it's time rather to re-focus on the root problem brought to this forum: HW's repeated incivility and hostility toward editors with whom he disagrees, as this IS the place to deal with repeated edit warring and repeated violations of WP:CIV when other means of resolution have proved ineffective. As Wikipedia encourages discussion as a means to solve differences of opinion and/or to clarify one's comments, to instead choose to NOT begin or involve himself in such discussions acts against policy and guideline... making Wilipedia an unpleasent place to even dare offer an opinion... and THAT's why this ANI was opened... to gain input about repeated edit-warring and repeated violations of WP:CIV. While HW can indeed be a productive editor, and has contributed to the cleaning of many articles, he is not the final arbiter, and he does not WP:OWN any of the articles he chooses to edit. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Then bring forth examples of bad behaviour. This complaint was framed in terms of his removal of images that are clear NFCC violations. Since that behaviour is clearly exempt from our edit-warring policies, there wasn't much to be done (and I'm sorry, Testales ... the violation is clear and unambiguous, as the arguments you apply are equally applicable to thousands of mainstream performers where NFCC has been held to prohibit the image use). I'm perfectly happy to examine misbehavior on HW's part if someone brings forth examples of it.
- As for my opposition being to pornographic pictures, I think an quick examination of my deletion log and speedy nominations show that most copyright violations I delete or nominate for deletion are of mainstream celebrities.—Kww(talk) 23:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- And I have myself repeatedly stated that I do not think pornography belongs on an open Wikipedia. However, here's a recent example of incivity and lack of discussion and skirting 3RR as if he WP:OWNed the article: 9to5 – Days in Porn: Repeatedly reverting editors[59] until literally forced into discussion,[60] when a simple removal of mis-linked names would have easily sufficed. And then there are examples of his taking other's comments of of context, twisting their words, impuning their integrity, while at the same time insulting the editor. There was absolutely no cause for his rudeness at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raven Riley (2nd nomination), or his calling another's comments "ranting" as he did at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lena Li (2nd nomination), or his attacking the editor and not the edits at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brandon Rogers (singer) (3rd nomination), or his wikilawyering at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Claudia Costa (2nd nomination). Please... do I need to find and offer all such examples of negativity toward others? What is ironic here is that in his own words, HW states "One of the least civil aspects of Wikipedia is the way some combatants in AFD and other areas engage in content-free needling of editors they disagree with rather than engaging in civil, policy-based discussions,"[61] when yet he is so often guilty of that very same behavior. Again, he does some fine work, even though he rarely contibutes content or searches for sources, and he is far more likely to scold others for not doing the searches or content contributions he himself does not do. But what I think what is needed here is simply his being urged/asked/instructed to be more civil and not assume the worst in other editors. Or is my opinion here just "whining"? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm on my way out the door. I'll look at this in 4 or 5 hours.—Kww(talk) 00:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I've looked. I can see your point It's obvious that he has formed a low opinion of several editors, and it shows. It doesn't rise to block level in my mind, but it would be quite adequate fodder for an RFC. I don't think ANI is the appropriate venue for it.—Kww(talk) 03:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- And sadly, he and these others (myself included) do not always disagree... often finding common ground for deletes or keeps at various AFDs... and contrary to some of his far-too-often repeated accusation that I try to keep "virtually anything that's ever been mentioned online", I am quite willing opine delete at AFD and have done so in agreement with him many times. It's just that when he decides that he and he alone is right, it's a bad time to have a differing opinion. Perhaps incivility toward only certain editors and only at certain times may not in and of itself be blockable, but it is his willingness to escalate to insult and create a devisive atmosphere that is of concern. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 04:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I've looked. I can see your point It's obvious that he has formed a low opinion of several editors, and it shows. It doesn't rise to block level in my mind, but it would be quite adequate fodder for an RFC. I don't think ANI is the appropriate venue for it.—Kww(talk) 03:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Quick comment, if a number of editors disagree with an action, even a NFCC action, and they have a valid policy argument, there should be actual discussion, not repeated direct action. Yes, removing non-free material can be exempt from 3RR, but when a real issue is raised, and of a certainly the claim that this is a situation where "retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance" has come into play means this should go for a proper discussion (at FfD in this case). This might well meet our guidelines and policies for inclusion. Ignoring for a moment if HW was abusing the tools or not I think restoring and listing at FfD for cases where reasonable policy arguments exist would be the best action at this point. Hobit (talk) 03:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- If the images managed to survive FFD, then putting them back in the article would be justified. Removing them from the article is not deletion.—Kww(talk) 03:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I believe Hobit has hit on the important point in this matter: the need for discussion, even when it concerns applying policy. There has been a common misunderstanding that Wikipedia policy is somehow the equivalent of rules or laws, & therefore needs to be enforced. Policy is nothing more than the consensus opinion about a number of issues, & the way that consensus is applied is through discussion. That means not only does one need a plausible & reasonable argument for invoking Wikipedia:ignore all rules, but also one for getting other Wikipedians to follow policy; saying that something "violates policy" or "violates consensus" is an acceptable explanation only for the most obvious instances. (This approach has been more or less described at WP:BRD.) Sanctions only come into play when an individual refuses to participate or accept plausible arguments, because this is disruptive & harms Wikipedia. The original complaint -- that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was repeatedly unlinking images against the wishes of others without discussion -- thus is valid. But if HW understands that she/he was mistaken in how she/he was applying policy & is willing instead to use discussion in the future, any form of sanctions here would be inappropriate. -- llywrch (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- But he was not mistaken. Once he challenged the material, it needed to be removed until there was consensus to readd, especially since it's a blatantly obvious NFCC#1 violation. His removal makes it clear that there was not a consensus to restore the material. Anyone could have taken the material to FFD. If somehow a consensus was achieved that this was one of the vanishingly rare exceptions to the general agreement that copyrighted pictures cannot be used to illustrate BLPs, it could be restored. Until that agreement is reached, the image can't be in the article. It was the restoration that was disruptive, not the removal.—Kww(talk) 17:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Given that this is _exactly_ the case spelled out as an exception to the general rule, I think it's reasonable to say that edit warring to keep it out isn't the right way to go. BRD applies when a good faith objection is made and execpt in the case of vandalism or other bad faith actions, discussing is always the right thing to do. Further, you are saying that those wanting the image in the article take it to FfD and need to do so immediately when someone removes a non-free image from an article? How the heck are they suppose to know that? My understanding for AfD is that you are only supposed to do that when you want it deleted; people have been told they are violating WP:POINT for bringing things to AfD they want kept. Is FfD different? Hobit (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't the exception case at all. No one has demonstrated the existence of any source whatsoever that indicates that the appearance of these particular women is in any way unique or relevant to their notability. I know it creates a Catch-22 for people that get caught by someone that is anal about "don't nominate for deletion unless you yourself want the deletion", but there was no consensus to include the images: the very fact that WH removed them a second time proves the lack of consensus. Whenever there is a controversy, policy favors removal of the controversial material, not the inclusion.—Kww(talk) 03:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Kww could you please prove this strange point? What about WP:STATUSQUO?! Not to mention that ideas behind Wikipedia:RV have one again completly been ignored by HW. Testales (talk) 07:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- No more than they were ignored by people that inserted it, and somewhat less since he accurately pointed at a policy. WP:BURDEN is overarching: people that want to include material have to prove their case, people that want to remove it do not. And, responding to your comment below, this isn't an "extreme" interpretation of WP:NFCC. This is run-of-the-mill. There are tens of thousands of biography articles without pictures because there aren't free images available, and there is no particular reason that Japanese porn stars form an exceptional group.—Kww(talk) 15:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Kww could you please prove this strange point? What about WP:STATUSQUO?! Not to mention that ideas behind Wikipedia:RV have one again completly been ignored by HW. Testales (talk) 07:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't the exception case at all. No one has demonstrated the existence of any source whatsoever that indicates that the appearance of these particular women is in any way unique or relevant to their notability. I know it creates a Catch-22 for people that get caught by someone that is anal about "don't nominate for deletion unless you yourself want the deletion", but there was no consensus to include the images: the very fact that WH removed them a second time proves the lack of consensus. Whenever there is a controversy, policy favors removal of the controversial material, not the inclusion.—Kww(talk) 03:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Kww, one of us is missing an important point here. As I understand what happened, HW acted, was reverted & asked to explain himself, & he replied by reverting. No discussion, simply reversion; removing content without any discussion is not challenging the content, it is... well, frustrating. Okay, let's use policy-talk & call it disruption. In any case, there is no discussion, no defense or attack on policy, just one stubborn editor deciding she/he didn't want something in Wikipedia, & refusing to discuss the matter. Years ago, maybe before you joined Wikipedia, there was a certain user who would revert edits without an explanation -- unless someone challenged him on it, & even then would sometimes continue to edit war in support of how he wanted the text to read. Eventually he was banned from Wikipedia -- twice, since he came back under another username only to drift back to his old habits. So if I'm correct in understanding the situation, HW is following in this banned user's steps. So I'll repeat my earlier conclusion -- the complaint is valid & HW needs to discuss his edits in the future when challenged. Especially when several people are insisting that she/he stop & discuss the matter. -- llywrch (talk) 04:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Llywrch, I believe you're missing the important point. None of the disputing editors asked me to explain myself; the basis for my action was made explicitly in the initial edit summaries, and no one claimed it wasn't clear. Instead, the other editors involved, using identical edit summaries (which I found a bit curious), reverted, alluded to a possible exception to the policy involved, and implied, without any substantive discussion, that it was my responsibility to prove that no exception could apply. As Kww quite accurately pointed out, this goes against both established policy for handling such issues and established practice for handling nonfree images. It's just a tactic for gaming the system to avoid the requirements of WP:BURDEN and to tie down editors trying to enforce a well-established policy consensus. Even now, only one of the three editors pressing for restoration of the images has advanced any substantive arguments. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Given that this is _exactly_ the case spelled out as an exception to the general rule, I think it's reasonable to say that edit warring to keep it out isn't the right way to go. BRD applies when a good faith objection is made and execpt in the case of vandalism or other bad faith actions, discussing is always the right thing to do. Further, you are saying that those wanting the image in the article take it to FfD and need to do so immediately when someone removes a non-free image from an article? How the heck are they suppose to know that? My understanding for AfD is that you are only supposed to do that when you want it deleted; people have been told they are violating WP:POINT for bringing things to AfD they want kept. Is FfD different? Hobit (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry Hobbit either you are one of apparently few editors left who seem not have to forgotten the original spirit or your comment is just funny. Just open your eyes, it's not even that policies are treated word-by-word as ultimate law but they same applies even to guidelines. If you want to deleted something, just point to a guideline that may in extreme way POSSIBLY be interpreted as supporting the delete and you are done. Not discussion needed, because you "improved" Wikipedia by enforcing its "law". (Can give an example where even a very experienced editor obviously even confuses policiy and guideline). Furthermore, I mean we are talking here about some icon-sized images who show even less than the cover of a typical TV guide. Images that have been on Wikipedia for years and which existence is even still CLEARY allowed (there was still no argument real against it!) by the currenty policies. So even if there are such apparently idiot-proof explanations on a policy page there are still people who simply nullify that, just read that section here. So because there is one guy deletes ONLY who wanted to have a set of fairly uncritical images deleted and (at least) 4 people don't agree with him. Still he enforces that with edit war and gets even support here by an admin. Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. As if that would be not enough, the involved editors even get called "gang of pornhounds" and "fan boys". At least half of the editors that were against the removing do not even work regulary in that area but still, they are just "wanking community". Wikipedia has become quite an unfriendly place as it seems. Now I really need to go to a policy discussion to clear up a point which is actually not missunderstandable, only because somebody want to deleted some harmless images for a questionable motivation. No, I am unable to assume good faith here, not seeing the edit warring to enforce this deletion. Testales (talk) 07:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- But he was not mistaken. Once he challenged the material, it needed to be removed until there was consensus to readd, especially since it's a blatantly obvious NFCC#1 violation. His removal makes it clear that there was not a consensus to restore the material. Anyone could have taken the material to FFD. If somehow a consensus was achieved that this was one of the vanishingly rare exceptions to the general agreement that copyrighted pictures cannot be used to illustrate BLPs, it could be restored. Until that agreement is reached, the image can't be in the article. It was the restoration that was disruptive, not the removal.—Kww(talk) 17:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I believe Hobit has hit on the important point in this matter: the need for discussion, even when it concerns applying policy. There has been a common misunderstanding that Wikipedia policy is somehow the equivalent of rules or laws, & therefore needs to be enforced. Policy is nothing more than the consensus opinion about a number of issues, & the way that consensus is applied is through discussion. That means not only does one need a plausible & reasonable argument for invoking Wikipedia:ignore all rules, but also one for getting other Wikipedians to follow policy; saying that something "violates policy" or "violates consensus" is an acceptable explanation only for the most obvious instances. (This approach has been more or less described at WP:BRD.) Sanctions only come into play when an individual refuses to participate or accept plausible arguments, because this is disruptive & harms Wikipedia. The original complaint -- that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was repeatedly unlinking images against the wishes of others without discussion -- thus is valid. But if HW understands that she/he was mistaken in how she/he was applying policy & is willing instead to use discussion in the future, any form of sanctions here would be inappropriate. -- llywrch (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
The full story
Ok, let's focus on the actual case, I tried to keep out the policy question from start anyway, see my replies to User:Bali ultimate. So here is the full story, sorry if this now gets a bit lengthy but it should allow to judge the situation. I hope it's ok that I created another sub-section because of the length, if not feel free to merge it with the other one. Let me also say that the behaviour on both sides was not perfect and if very well meaning seen it possibly could even be seen as bad timing combined with missunderstanding. But unfortunately this seems to be more a typical pattern of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz practices.
It all starts here:
Extended content
|
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Hullaboo:
Note the quick timing, I left out no other edits here. What may have HW searched here and with what intention? Anyway, some days later when I was reading policies again, I stumbled over WP:NFC#UULP. I verified this by checking the corresponding point at WP:P* again, which states: Fair Use - see Wikipedia:Image description page for rationale for fair use. Publicity photos are often useful for this, but be careful - non-free (fair use) images are only allowed if a free image could not reasonably be created. If the person is dead, is a recluse, or currently looks significantly different than during their career, then the image is not replaceable. But for most active stars, a non-free image would be deemed "replaceable" and would be deleted. So I was convinced (and I still am) that this is enough to justify reverts while pointing to these rules in the summary. Testales:
I had only reverted the 3 most obvious cases, that means either the subject has retired or looks significantly different which one can expect if an actress is now over 60 and got known while she was say arround 24. I was not sure about the other cases, that may have to be discussed I thought, and wanted to see what happens next. Now another editor appears who picks up "the ball". Kintetsubuffalo, reverting more "contributions" of HW:
(...)
I actually expected at least some REASON from Hullaboo either seeking discussion or only not accepting questionables cases. But no... Hullaboo:
Seeing an upcoming possible edit war, I did the first step by seeking discussion now myself and expecting that HW would at least WATCH the articles he simply mass-reverts. Testales:
Dekkapai, also seeing edit war starting but refering to a basic priniciple of Wikipedia editing:
Which does of course not impress our Hullaboo even a little and at this point it has definitly turned into edit-war: Hullaboo:
Dekappai, now only 1 representative revert and also notifying Tabercil who is an active admin and member of WP:P*
Testales, as it's obviously only possible to draw HW's attention to a discussion by reverting, so 1 revert here too to "trigger" him:
Hullaboo, still reverting:
Hullaboo, finally the first reply in a DISCUSSION:
Testales, replying, HW has still completely ignored WP:NFC#UULP, he was only refering to the a template which is not policy:
Cherryblossom1982 jumping in, confirming our position:
Followed by Dekkappai:
Tabercil on his talk page, knowing both editors and beeing neutral while having computer problems which prevent him from having a closer look:
Hullaboo, not replying at the discussion anymore but instead creating an FfD:
Kintetsubuffalo, also now doing some reverts and preparing the ANI entry:
|
(ANI discussion starting)
Hullaboo's ANI reply, now even claiming there was no "substantive defense" (sic) and improvising an argument by simply declaring the policy rule in question "is rare exception that is only suggested and needs also well-referenced textual support":
- 23:26, 28 July 2010: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (Hullaballoo Wolfowitz edit-warring across articles with several editors)
I hope I have not forgotten an important part. I intentionally left out the discussion which Morbidthoughts has started after the the ANI discussion started. He bascially stated there that the fair use photos of WP:P* may be outdated as beeing written in 2007.
I also considered starting a discussion about this point before my first reverts but then I thought the wording is rather clear and consistent with WP:NFC#UULP. This and that WP:NFCC alone leaves a lot of room for interpreation was later confirmed by Epbr123 who is administrator and listed active member of WP:P*.
So after all I still think that at least my initial reverts are very justified and that there was no point for HW to start and/or focus on a little edit war to enforce his point of view - as usually, I would say.
I hope this helps a bit to enlighten the reason for this ANI discussion.
Testales (talk) 11:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- The major takeaway for me was that Wolfowitz has been more than patient in dealing with a gang of pornhounds dedicated to confounding the enforcement of basic standards. We should give wolfowitz a parade, or a chocolate chip cookie, or something.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- We need to stop with the insulting language from both sides of this. Porn isn't any more trivial than the Disney Channel, and we certainly have enough of that on Wikipedia. "Pornhound" and "wanker" don't add anything to the discussion. There's a walled garden problem here, but the insults aren't necessary.—Kww(talk) 15:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ok. How about a "group of people who appear to be gaming the system to keep non-free images in a host of articles with titles such as Immoral First Love: Loving from the Nipples, Housekeeper with Beautiful Skin: Made Wet with Finger Torture and Female Prisoner Ayaka: Tormenting and Breaking in a Bitch?"Bali ultimate (talk) 15:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- We need to stop with the insulting language from both sides of this. Porn isn't any more trivial than the Disney Channel, and we certainly have enough of that on Wikipedia. "Pornhound" and "wanker" don't add anything to the discussion. There's a walled garden problem here, but the insults aren't necessary.—Kww(talk) 15:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- My ability to tolerate your continued incivility rapidly vanishes, Bali. If you continue to act that way you may become the main subject of a similiar discussion too. Although that doesn't seem to impress you very much as you seem to be regular customer here [62][63][64][65][66][67][68] anyway. So in front of this background and as you also have nothing constructive contributed to this discussion other than clearly stating your WP:BADFAITH regarding the work of several editors, I think you opinion can completley be ignored. You can also keep your prejudices regarding certain topics for yourself because I seriously doubt that you had any closer look to the topics you criticized. Testales (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Knock yourself out champ. Good luck with the "retain copyrighted soft-porn images campaign."Bali ultimate (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Its not just about images
We seem to have two different threads going on here. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) began this report by stating "Normally I would take this to the edit-warring board, but this is broader and speaks to larger behavioral issues-civility, 3RR, editwarring, and ignoring multiply-cited Wikipedia policies and other editors requests to talk", after which discussions semed to deal primarily with images. But as dealing only with image issues does not adress the original concerns toward the "larger behavioral issues-civility, 3RR, editwarring, and ignoring multiply-cited Wikipedia policies and other editors requests to talk", shall we start a different discussion as KWW suggests by taking behavior concerns to an RFC/U? Or since it has been brought up here, might it be discussed here without repeated returns to images? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 15:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
User:Ackees using Congo Free State as a soapbox, again, after 3O
This article was brought to 3O after huge WP:POV pushing followed by a series of racist personal attacks in April, see Talk:Congo Free State#Leopold 'civilized' - right!..... User:HelloAnnyong jumped in and tried to help, and User:Rlevse stopped him from further vandalizing my talkpage. The nonsense stopped for a while, but User:Ackees is determined to belittle and attack all others on this article, and it needs to stop. Now. Please.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Notifed User:Ackees about this post - please remember you must notify any user you discuss here. Exxolon (talk) 14:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- So did I, I was in the process simultaneously.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
We will fight them on the beaches. We will never surrender.Ackees (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a battleground. I'm also confused by your edit to my user (not talk) page here [69] with the edit summary "(ha ha ha whatever)" - care to explain? Exxolon (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Note - "16:45, 30 July 2010 SarekOfVulcan (talk | contribs) blocked Ackees (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours (Edit warring)" so Ackees is unable to respond here. Exxolon (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- According to Sarek, he blocked for edit warring on a different article to the one above, so this issue may still need looking at. Exxolon (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Before editing again, (if again), someone needs to give him a primer on NPOV and writing in a netural tone, I had a look at a few of his article edits and they were all problematical. --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- On the other hand, somebody apparently had in fact defaced the article with racist references to Europeans as the "civilized world" in contrast with the Africans, which is of course patently unacceptable, so Ackees seems to have had some kind of a legitimate complaint. Looking further into this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Replacing one set of POV with another is not acceptable either, and this has been explained to him time and again. He's apparently familiar with the topic, but too close to it to be able to write objectively. It's not really my topic, I found him because of his brazen and insulting edit summaries and racebaiting, which he tried on me, to no avail. I revert such edits and editors on principle. Racism from any angle is unacceptable here. Some editors are banned from editing certain topics that push their hot buttons, say Kosovo or Palestine. For this user, I would suggest looking further into that.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. On the other hand, simply reverting the offending edits and thereby reinstating the very obvious (and arguably worse) offending parts of the previous version, without correcting the latter, was probably not the most constructive thing to do – it was obviously pushing his hot buttons even more. I'm glad somebody now seems to have been doing the obvious thing and taken out that "civilised" vs. "primitive" nonsense. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, attention does need to be paid to this page. Maybe the underlying tone came from the 1911 Britannia article some of it was based on? It doesn't read too badly now, but it still does have a general tone of regarding the Congo as the "White Man's Burden". It'd be good to get more of the perspective of the Congolese into the article, if that's possible. Fences&Windows 14:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. On the other hand, simply reverting the offending edits and thereby reinstating the very obvious (and arguably worse) offending parts of the previous version, without correcting the latter, was probably not the most constructive thing to do – it was obviously pushing his hot buttons even more. I'm glad somebody now seems to have been doing the obvious thing and taken out that "civilised" vs. "primitive" nonsense. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Replacing one set of POV with another is not acceptable either, and this has been explained to him time and again. He's apparently familiar with the topic, but too close to it to be able to write objectively. It's not really my topic, I found him because of his brazen and insulting edit summaries and racebaiting, which he tried on me, to no avail. I revert such edits and editors on principle. Racism from any angle is unacceptable here. Some editors are banned from editing certain topics that push their hot buttons, say Kosovo or Palestine. For this user, I would suggest looking further into that.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
User:Mathsci attempting to out User:David.Kane
User:Mathsci is attempting to out me. He claims that I have some connection to the David Kane who writes at "Gene Expression," www.gnxp.com.
I "do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information." I have never mentioned this website, or any theoretical involvement there by me, at Wikipedia. I request that User:Mathsci remove this claim from Wikipedia. If he refuses to (as his past behavior suggests is likely), I request that an admin sanction him. WP:OUTTING notes that "attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block." A block would provide MathSci with time to consider how best to work with other editors. David.Kane (talk) 15:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, both you here and the David Kane at gnxp.com write under your full names, and you both have the same interest in race-related issues. But what clinches it is, the David Kane at gnxp.com explicitly claims he is you on Wikipedia [70]. If he isn't, maybe you'd better protest against identity theft. Unless that posting is a fake (and it doesn't look like one), I don't think you have grounds for an outing complaint. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Shouldn't you have raised this issue by contacting an Admin via email? A large fraction of the Wiki community monitors AN/I, only a small fraction would have seen the comments made by Matsci. That Admin could have intervened by removing the comment by Matsci and then a thread could have been started here to discuss measures against Mathsci; the evidence for the outing attempt would only be visible to Admins. Count Iblis (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was going to add similar thoughts but got edit conflict. I am also of the view that this is not a case of outting. It is not unusual for evidence to be submitted to arbcom regarding off-wiki comments about wikipedia. To use the username David Kane and then claim that you are being outted as being "David Kane" is a mistake. If you used an anonymous username that would be different as you would have a case that evidence should have been submitted to arbcom privately. I don't think there has been any violation of wikipedia policy. If you have an imposter at gnpx.com, then you need to contact gnpx.com. If you really are David Kane and you posted publicly on a blog that you are David Kane at Wikipedia, then you David Kane outted yourself, not MathSci.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Dear poor David.Kane, these points and these links have been under discussion for about a month and a half at ArbCom. His edits here simply seem to be a diversion as a kind of attention seeking exercise or a method of creating more disruption. He identified himself off-wiki with this edit [71], a link ArbCom is already familiar with. His edits at the moment seem to be extremely disruptive. Since he doen't seem to be particularly interested in improving content on wikipedia outside race-related articles and even there he is pushing a POV to breaking point with recent edits to Race (classification of humans), already described on ArbCom pages, there seems little point in making any further comment. Presumably this report was made to interrupt my edits to Clavier-Übung III. Perhaps it hasn't dawned on David,Kane yet that some people spend there time on wikipedia doing things other than trying to push their personal points of view on the bioligical inferiority of certain races. Not a very bright stunt really. But a stunt neverthless. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was going to add similar thoughts but got edit conflict. I am also of the view that this is not a case of outting. It is not unusual for evidence to be submitted to arbcom regarding off-wiki comments about wikipedia. To use the username David Kane and then claim that you are being outted as being "David Kane" is a mistake. If you used an anonymous username that would be different as you would have a case that evidence should have been submitted to arbcom privately. I don't think there has been any violation of wikipedia policy. If you have an imposter at gnpx.com, then you need to contact gnpx.com. If you really are David Kane and you posted publicly on a blog that you are David Kane at Wikipedia, then you David Kane outted yourself, not MathSci.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Moreover, D.K. at gnxp.com not only identified himself as D.K. on Wikipedia, he overtly used gnxp.com to campaign and solicit external help for his POV dispute on Wikipedia. While I don't think his external activity necessarily crossed the line into attempted forbidden meatpuppeting, it clearly is fair game for talking about on Wikipedia. I'd say User:David.Kane is in for a warning for raising frivolous complaints in bad faith. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have posted on David's user talk a warning template for trying to gain ownership of article content or article POV by off-wikipedia canvassing as there were no denials from David that this is what he was doing and it is quite obvious this was the case in my view. I have also warned david about not assuming good faith. I guess the admins here can decide whether any further action is needed; if not then perhaps this latest drama on race and intelligence can be marked as resolved and closed.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Obviously not outing, what a frivolous post. Fences&Windows 16:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, folks, to be fair, I am not even sure this is "outing," technically, in any event. Isn't outing naming someone's real-world identity? Al we know is that there is a WP user with the registered name David Kane, and at this blog another registered user using the same name. For all we know, David Kane here is a 15 year old girl named Sally living in Portland Oregon, and the David Kane at the Gene Blogi s a 60 year old man named Hans living in Munich. Does that gene Blog provide RW info? I couldn't find it. MathSci might be mistaken in associting two internet personas that coincidentally use the same fake name. That is not outing, even if it is a mistkake. That said, Future Perfect's comment sort of nails it.
- This would be amusing but for one thing: it is one more example of the kind of tactic David and his comrade-in-arms (or ArbCom) routinely use: to try to bring the disciplinary machinary of WP down on MathSci as a way of distracting him from the current ArbCom case. Frankly I find this abusive. Forget about it being unfair to MthSci (unfair though it is), it is abusive of our time and good faith. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not quite, as the David on the genetic website acknowledges being the same David on wikipedia and tries to invite editors to join in a content dispute. I do not understand what you are saying, when you say "the kind of tactic David and his comrade-in-arms (or ArbCom) routinely use"; are you alledging that ArbCom is in cahoots with David? That is a rather strange claim.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it is possible to 'out' someone who already uses his real name. If this person is editing disruptively, that can be dealt with without invoking WP:OUTING. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- CHL has already passed comment on this disruption on the ArbCom case pages. My only possibly disruptive thought today was that I might perhaps be able port this image file over to en.wikipedia.org. That thought was suppressed, because I fear the answer is no. But if any administrator who's an expert on copyright thinks the answer might be yes, that would be great. Mathsci (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Update David.Kane has been blocked by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Mathsci (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify - I blocked for article disruption, not for anything related to the outing claim or discussion here. I agree with consensus above but him having made the complaint was frivilous, not actionable. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- David.Kane, now unblocked, stated that his reason to be unblocked was so that he could participate in the ArbCom case. The administrator that unblocked him Tivedshambo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) did not notice how that statement conflicts with the request David.Kane made here. Mathsci (talk) 07:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify - I blocked for article disruption, not for anything related to the outing claim or discussion here. I agree with consensus above but him having made the complaint was frivilous, not actionable. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Update David.Kane has been blocked by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Mathsci (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- CHL has already passed comment on this disruption on the ArbCom case pages. My only possibly disruptive thought today was that I might perhaps be able port this image file over to en.wikipedia.org. That thought was suppressed, because I fear the answer is no. But if any administrator who's an expert on copyright thinks the answer might be yes, that would be great. Mathsci (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it is possible to 'out' someone who already uses his real name. If this person is editing disruptively, that can be dealt with without invoking WP:OUTING. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not quite, as the David on the genetic website acknowledges being the same David on wikipedia and tries to invite editors to join in a content dispute. I do not understand what you are saying, when you say "the kind of tactic David and his comrade-in-arms (or ArbCom) routinely use"; are you alledging that ArbCom is in cahoots with David? That is a rather strange claim.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- This would be amusing but for one thing: it is one more example of the kind of tactic David and his comrade-in-arms (or ArbCom) routinely use: to try to bring the disciplinary machinary of WP down on MathSci as a way of distracting him from the current ArbCom case. Frankly I find this abusive. Forget about it being unfair to MthSci (unfair though it is), it is abusive of our time and good faith. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Threats to go to the press
Is any administrative action necessary if a user threatens to report an issue to the press if they don't get their way? I am aware of WP:NLT, which doesn't specifically mention situations like this, but the consequences to our collaborative environment seem to be roughly the same to me whether the threat is take legal action or to take it to the press. (I'd rather not be specific yet, because if no admin action is needed, avoiding the drama of ANI would be best.) Gnome de plume (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on the issue at hand. If a Wikipedia or WMF policy is being violated, I think it should be brought to the attention of someone who can do something about it, despite the threat. If the threat is being made solely to get a different result in a discussion, I'd ignore it. It's a free internet. (Besides, if we change decisions just to avoid press scrutiny, that will generate press scrutiny in and of itself.) Frank | talk 18:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Attempts to apply outside pressure to editors are a no-no. We have a specific policy on legal threats, we also stand against attempting to reveal editors real-life identities. This should be treated similarly - as should for example a threat to contact an individual's employer. We must not tolerate "chilling effects" of this type. Exxolon (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly agreed; those are different than "I'll go to the press". Even so...our "toleration" of such behavior isn't a prerequisite for it being carried out; nor is our intolerance any guarantee it will not be carried out. But I agree our stance should be firmly against that sort of thing. Frank | talk 18:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Attempts to apply outside pressure to editors are a no-no. We have a specific policy on legal threats, we also stand against attempting to reveal editors real-life identities. This should be treated similarly - as should for example a threat to contact an individual's employer. We must not tolerate "chilling effects" of this type. Exxolon (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Please do be specific, here or at another noticeboard. If someone thinks they need to go to the press, others should be involved. It's not the same as a legal threat, but it suggests there's any issue that needs resolving. Fences&Windows 21:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but let's entertain the possibility that the "issue" is simply that someone wants to get their way. If that's the case, a big yawn might suffice. Frank | talk 22:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Legal, press, or otherwise, threats should not be welcomed. At the minimum it's a poor attempt at intimidation and thus blockable. —Jeremy (v^_^v Carl Johnson) 01:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Intimidation is against the rules. I have to wonder, though, about what kind of a threat they think "going to the press" is, considering that wikipedia is already visible to most anyone with internet access. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Legal, press, or otherwise, threats should not be welcomed. At the minimum it's a poor attempt at intimidation and thus blockable. —Jeremy (v^_^v Carl Johnson) 01:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but let's entertain the possibility that the "issue" is simply that someone wants to get their way. If that's the case, a big yawn might suffice. Frank | talk 22:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I really think a threat to go to the press should be met with "...and?" followed by a yawn. Most of the time, threats are only threats if they are treated as such. Discussions like this seem to me to be equivalent to feeding the trolls. Frank | talk 01:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the comment above. What exactly is wrong with going to the press? Unless they provide false information to the press I would say nothing because we live in a free world and wikipedia cannot prevent editors going to the press. In most cases the press won't be interested they have other things to do than write about wikipedia. Dr. Loosmark 01:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's similar to threatening a lawsuit. Wikipedia can't prevent someone from filing a lawsuit over the actions of an editor. In every case where a lawsuit is threatened on-wiki, such a suit would be laughed out of court and would most likely result in sanctions for the plantiff. As such, a threat to sue is not really a threat to sue, but an intimidation technique to gain the upper hand in a content dispute without addressing the actual issues involved. Threatening to go to the press is a similar technique...there's no real danger resulting from it, but it is an attempt at intimidation that should not be tolerated. Bobby Tables (talk) 05:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Somewhat similar except that it is harder to cause harm (though not impossible, see the case of Ms. Sherrod) by just going to the press than it is by bringing a legal threat into the mix. I could have no standing or injury and could still reasonably threaten anyone in the US with some crazy lawsuit. The editor on the receiving end of the threat has little choice but to treat my threat as serious, because ignoring it could result in summary judgment, etc. Threatening to go to the press is a few steps above threatening to blog about a content dispute. Intimidation might be present, but making that decision would have to rely on context. Also, there is the slight optics problem of getting into the habit of blocking editors who want to talk to outsiders about wikipedia. All that said, I'm a fan of BB's approach. If someone wants to inflate their own sense of self-importance and threaten to write a sternly worded letter to their local paper about some WP:LAME edit war, it should be standard practice to treat such threats with indifference. Protonk (talk) 05:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm left wondering how we avoid the appearance of tolerating (or present the appearance of not tolerating) such threats. My own feeling is that pretending they mean anything by welcoming, discussing, or reacting to them is far more tolerant than would be ignoring them. By pretending (no, behaving as though) there is something to not tolerate, we give the impression that going to the press (or, indeed, a legal threat) actually means anything. I, for one, think a simple "so?" is sufficient to deflate a majority of such cases. This is especially true when there's almost nothing we can do to prevent it anyway. If politicians and public figures spent time denying every untrue (or partially true) bad thing said about them, we'd have tabloids full of such stories. Oh yeah...we already have that...and some folks pay attention; most don't. So, I ask: how exactly do we "not tolerate" threats? We allow people to behave in all sorts of rude ways around here (far ruder than threatening to go to the press) without blocking them, so...where's our stick for this one? Frank | talk 12:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- We don't need a stick. This is "threat" is basically "I'm going to tell on you", and without further information we have no reason to believe that the media would be interested in any particular content dispute. What we need is for more editors to be involved, because a dispute is obviously escalating and should be resolved. Hence we should stop pontificating on generalities and be told what the specific dispute is. Fences&Windows 14:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi, for the last few days Taivo (talk · contribs) supplied every of my post with groundless accusations used as arguments in discussion and degraded to personal epithets.
- [72] in violation to WP:Assume good faith rejects to accept that I checked sources
- [73] as arguments uses personal behavior accusations that I "have not read the source" and "you don't like the information" and "can someone step in and shut this guy up", "He is providing nothing useful to the debate, but only complaining that he doesn't like the result"
- [74] "you to lay off"
- [75] which I even will not quote here (and it is still not removed)
- [76] instead of arguments - personal behavior accusations like "Windyhead doesn't like the information because it conflicts with his worldview", "He then began forum shopping here and at another notice board"
- [77] again empty accusations of not reading the source "You were continually making a mess of the paragraph" , "you worked very hard to not read the sources and to not understand what they said" and "Your "contribution" was nothing and resulted in nothing" , "You'll surely post something self-serving after this"
- [78] "Removing malicious tags" for tags requesting to verify sources
- [79] "Windyhead simply refuses to read the sources cited if he disagrees with my interpretation of them", "This is just another case of his forum shopping", discusses my "modus operandi"
- [80] "Windyhead wasting time with malicious tagging" , "He is POV pushing without bothering to check sources".
Every single of my posts for last few days was responded with some accusation of personal behavior.
He also prepared "edit warring" report on me containing no single revert diff [81].
He also reverted my every single change to a page in conflict during last few days.
Is this kind of behavior is tolerated here? Or is it tolerated but only for editors with "honors"? I mean, may I or should I act like my opponent to get things moving? --windyhead (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- This editor has spent the last week posting baseless tags at Ukrainian language without demonstrating 1) any real knowledge of linguistics, 2) any willingness to actual read sources, or 3) any willingness to read the posts wherein I have explained the linguistic issues to him. If you read his first comments and his last comments at Talk:Ukrainian language, you will see no change whatsoever in the content of his posts or in his understanding of the linguistic issues. An edit warring charge is completely justified as he was told by several other editors and administrators that my actions were completely justified within Wikipedia policy, yet he persisted in posting malicious tags because the phrase he objects to (while completely referenced and NPOV) violates his own personal POV. This complaint is just another in his long series of attempts at forum shopping. --Taivo (talk) 20:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Windyhead, you have all the appearance of being a tendentious editor. Taivo appears to be calling a spade a spade when he criticises your editing. And Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts is the place for this, not here. No admin is going to sanction Taivo for his comments, even if they were less polite than might be desired. Fences&Windows 20:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)Actually, this is a prime example of why remaining civil even in the heat of a dispute is important - in many cases, the party who feels insulted is empowered and angered by the insults, and an ANI case or other wider dispute emerge. See for example Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pmanderson#Outside view by Georgewilliamherbert, something else that came out of a recent ANI discussion above.
- Tavio - There are multiple other editors involved here. If you can't respond politely to Windyhead, please let one of the others there handle the ondoign discussions. Continuing to abuse Windyhead would be inappropriate and a violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Please stop that now.
- Windyhead - Fences and Windows' comment about your tedentious editing is something I agree with having read the article and article talk page histories ( Ukrainian language ). A number of edtiors, many of whom are linguists, are clearly countering your tagging and disputes there. There seem to be many sources. If you do not understand the sources or don't agree with one editors interpretations of them, it is adviseable to discuss it on the talk page and attempt to educate yourself further in the specific field. Tagging something that you don't understand well once is one thing; continuing to come back to it despite multiple editors pointing out the sources and trying to explain them to you is not helpful, and ultimately becomes disruptive.
- Please make a better effort to work with the editors there and understand their responses.
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) WP:OUCH. Reporter blocked 24hrs for disruptive editing. There was a long-standing pattern of hostile spurious tagging of perfectly straightforward sources (such as [82]), combined with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT wikilawyering on the talkpage and forum shopping. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I wondered if this was a case of WP:BOOMERANG, I was just about to check. Good block. Fences&Windows 20:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Problems with El Salvadoran IP editor
There has been a persistent El Salvadoran IP editor that keeps vandalizing List of Naruto: Shippuden episodes (season 8) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and restores a largely unintelligible remark on the article's talk page that appears to be some sort of insult or attack directed at other editors.[83][84] The vandalism takes the form of a false air date of a particular episode. You can see the actual air date at this Hulu links. The edits all come from the 190.86.x.x range and changes from day to day. The article has already been semi-protected for a week once, but the editor simply waited it out and returned to vandalizing the article once the semi-protected expired. An attempt communicate with the editor has resulted in nothing more than the editor posting non-sense such as "pendejo".[85] The editor has already shown that he/she will wait out any semi-protection period and ignores any warnings left about the repeated vandalism. —Farix (t | c) 21:41, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Protected article for three days in the first instance. S.G.(GH) ping! 21:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Since the editor has already waited out one 3 day semi-protection period, I don't have much faith that another will have any affect on stopping the vandalism. —Farix (t | c) 22:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Blocking the IP is not feasible, unless we block the whole /16 IP address space... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 22:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- We can block a /16 ... but should only in severe ongoing cases. This doesn't seem that bad...
- OTOH, we can indefinitely (or long duration) semiprotect an article if a persistent IP hopping vandal is present. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Since the editor has already waited out one 3 day semi-protection period, I don't have much faith that another will have any affect on stopping the vandalism. —Farix (t | c) 22:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Protected article for three days in the first instance. S.G.(GH) ping! 21:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, let me dust off my slide rule...2^16 is equal to .... OK, enough of that. Look, we can protect the article or play whack-a-mole with each new IP. Or both. It may be a pain, but what's the alternative? Give in? Take solace in this fact: Wikipedia will be around longer than the vandal. Frank | talk 22:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I guess if he continues a permanent semi-protection would be nice, but really just reverting the one or two edits he makes each day isn't that big a hassle.
- The irony here is that he doesn't seem to be bothering the Spanish-language Wikipedia article. Geg (talk) 02:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Could some admin take a look and see if this and this on my talk page and this on my user page are deserving of a block? Thanks Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- And this after notification. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Apparently, the editor seems not to care if he's blocked. [86] Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also see this thread, where a non-admin editor intervened. I would still like an admin to take a look, because whether or not my comments to Az8196444, made about 2 weeks ago, were a tad too harsh or bitchy, I can't see them as the equivalent to posting pictures of a limp penis on another editor's user page and talk page. Such vandalistic actions would best be discouraged. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Should be blocked. 174.52.141.138 (talk) 05:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Agreed, I would go straight to indef on this one. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Should be blocked. 174.52.141.138 (talk) 05:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also see this thread, where a non-admin editor intervened. I would still like an admin to take a look, because whether or not my comments to Az8196444, made about 2 weeks ago, were a tad too harsh or bitchy, I can't see them as the equivalent to posting pictures of a limp penis on another editor's user page and talk page. Such vandalistic actions would best be discouraged. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Apparently, the editor seems not to care if he's blocked. [86] Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- And this after notification. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, after reviewing the edits, I found Beyond My Ken essentially provoked this whole thing. Doesn't make Az81964444 any less problematic, but with some diffs, you will see why Az81964444 responded the way he did. The following are from July 18: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. While throwing around piss and vinegar, Beyond My Ken has the balls to tell Az81964444 to "Stay humble". All this centered around the Border War (1910–1918) page. Az81964444 came back with some rude comments which you see above, doesn't excuse them, but this was provoked. Blocks for each. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hmmm. So you see "piss and vinegar" and posting pictures of limp dicks on user pages as moral equivalents? Can't say that I agree with you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think any admin will say either you both are blocked or you both aren't. You provoke a response and not a good one, from someone you are just as guilty as they are. You started the fight, he kept it going. You are both guilty and both will be blocked. WP:NPA is in effect for any and all, not just some. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, you can't simply say "a pox on both their houses" and wash your hands of it. If my comments to Az81964444 – made two weeks ago, I should point out – went too far, were too bitchy or harsh, then a reasonable response would be to come to my talk page and complain. Most probably, I would have apologized. To instead call me a "dickhead", a "prick", a "computer geek", a "stupid fool", "braindead" and tell me to (in all caps) "FUCK OFF", and then to post an image of a limp penis on my talk page (because I'm a dickhead -- get it?) with the comment "saw your picture", and then move it to my user page -- these are not reasonable responses to what you yourself called "piss and vinegar". The posting of the image is, by itself, vandalism worthy of a block, in my opinion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You can't taunt the lion and poke it with a stick and complain when it bites your arm off. Neither of you are innocent here. You both did something that was in violation of WP:NPA. Yours with the linked diffs above and his with the adding of the pictures. If you consider "fool", "geek" and "braindead" a person insult, you will be quite shocked to learn that those aren't even schoolyard taunts anymore. Now, you can both be blocked, you for your personal attacks linked above and him for his adding of the picture, or you can stay away from each other, don't cross each other's paths (meaning not going on pages each other are working on) and stop acting like children. We are here to build an encyclopedia constructively, if you can't do that, sign out. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- On the other hand, Az should get some form of discipline. His edits were a good order of magnitude beyond...well Beyond's posts; he was clearly harassing him. HalfShadow 06:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I am for blocks for both, even if one is greater than the other. There is violations of NPA on both sides and vandalism on Az's, so like I said, no one is innocent. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- On the other hand, Az should get some form of discipline. His edits were a good order of magnitude beyond...well Beyond's posts; he was clearly harassing him. HalfShadow 06:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You can't taunt the lion and poke it with a stick and complain when it bites your arm off. Neither of you are innocent here. You both did something that was in violation of WP:NPA. Yours with the linked diffs above and his with the adding of the pictures. If you consider "fool", "geek" and "braindead" a person insult, you will be quite shocked to learn that those aren't even schoolyard taunts anymore. Now, you can both be blocked, you for your personal attacks linked above and him for his adding of the picture, or you can stay away from each other, don't cross each other's paths (meaning not going on pages each other are working on) and stop acting like children. We are here to build an encyclopedia constructively, if you can't do that, sign out. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, you can't simply say "a pox on both their houses" and wash your hands of it. If my comments to Az81964444 – made two weeks ago, I should point out – went too far, were too bitchy or harsh, then a reasonable response would be to come to my talk page and complain. Most probably, I would have apologized. To instead call me a "dickhead", a "prick", a "computer geek", a "stupid fool", "braindead" and tell me to (in all caps) "FUCK OFF", and then to post an image of a limp penis on my talk page (because I'm a dickhead -- get it?) with the comment "saw your picture", and then move it to my user page -- these are not reasonable responses to what you yourself called "piss and vinegar". The posting of the image is, by itself, vandalism worthy of a block, in my opinion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think any admin will say either you both are blocked or you both aren't. You provoke a response and not a good one, from someone you are just as guilty as they are. You started the fight, he kept it going. You are both guilty and both will be blocked. WP:NPA is in effect for any and all, not just some. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It is this one by Ken that has gone too far. We ought not to bully the bullies back. However, Az's comments are completely unacceptable. S.G.(GH) ping! 07:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'll stand by the essential content of that comment, but admit that the tone went too far. As I said above, if Az had come to me with a complaint about it, I would almost certainly have apologized. Of course, I wasn't offered that option, I got limp dicks instead. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't hurt to try now. So you got a nasty picture, big deal. You extend the olive branch, see where it leads, just tread lightly. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I thought about it, but, to be honest, its the vandalism (which is clearly what it was) that stops me from taking that step. If he had simply bitched back at me, well, I'd be annoyed, maybe even pissed off, but I'd get over it pretty quickly. But vandalizing.... that really crosses the line, for me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I dunno, let me think about it. Maybe some vodka on ice will change my perspective. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I recommend a good Jack and Coke, but whatever gets you there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, single malt scotch is my preference -- Glenlivet, to be precise -- but it's a little too expensive to keep in stock, hence my fallback to potato juice. Besides, I think scotch makes me a bit edgier, while vodka's a bit like mild liquid Ecstasy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I recommend a good Jack and Coke, but whatever gets you there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I dunno, let me think about it. Maybe some vodka on ice will change my perspective. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I thought about it, but, to be honest, its the vandalism (which is clearly what it was) that stops me from taking that step. If he had simply bitched back at me, well, I'd be annoyed, maybe even pissed off, but I'd get over it pretty quickly. But vandalizing.... that really crosses the line, for me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't hurt to try now. So you got a nasty picture, big deal. You extend the olive branch, see where it leads, just tread lightly. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'll stand by the essential content of that comment, but admit that the tone went too far. As I said above, if Az had come to me with a complaint about it, I would almost certainly have apologized. Of course, I wasn't offered that option, I got limp dicks instead. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Whatever gets you there. From here an admin will have to take over as I am going to bed. I recommend you extend the olive branch, if that doesn't work, just leave the situation alone, leave the user alone and walk away from it. I would also recommend not being as edgy. As the old saying goes, you can get more flies with honey than vinegar. I used to be "edgy" (still an to an extent) and edgy is good, but when it gets you in trouble, it is probably best to round off that "edge" a little. I will check in when I get up and see how things are going. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, I did post an apology before my last comment above -- I didn't note it because I was waiting to see what the response would be. Now that response has come in -- 19 minutes after I posted my apology, Az posted "retired" on his talk & user page, without directly responding to my comment. I'm not sure how to read that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sometimes that is the way things go. I commend you for taking the approach and apologizing. Thank you. I wish there would have been a better outcome, but again, that is the way things go. Carry on and keep up with your promise, trust me, it goes a long way. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Breech of General Sanction by User:Triton Rocker
The above named editor inserted "British Isles" into an an article here in defiance of his/her being sanctioned here. He has already had one block for breaking this ban. Would someone please take action as the two main admins monitoring this issue are on holiday. Thanks --Snowded TALK 05:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC) Second insertion against sanction here. In this case the change may be valid and I have nominated it on the project page. The sanction however is very clear. --Snowded TALK 05:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- What this editor did ... that's me ... was a series of well referenced work developing the topic along a pattern of well cited and defined geographic areas, e.g. British Isles, Scandinavia etc, that I will continue ... if left alone by trolls who do no work.
- Snowded is nothing more but one of a handful of nationalist war gamers attempting to politicise a non-political issue. --Triton Rocker (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've blocked TritonRocker for 48 hours. Review invited. This is particularly frustrating because the 1st set of edits were to an article already being discussed at WT:BISE. The 2nd set of edits, however, were to a completely new article. In both cases it appears possible that they could have got consensus for their change had they only bothered to try. TritonRocker has already been blocked once for violating the topic ban, hence the 48 hour block. TFOWR 07:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good block, i do not understand why Triton continues to add British Isles to articles without first raising it on the WP:BISE page. He is clearly being disruptive. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- All TritonRocker has to do is stick a mention of it in the WP:BISE page and we will discuss it in a reasonable and constructive way. I've found the level of willingness to engage with the issue in an intelligent way there to be improving now that this sanction policy is in place. Please defend the sanction policy. Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Tangentially related: I'd appreciate it if other admins could keep an eye on this. Both myself and Black Kite are away until 7 August, and this issue is OK when it's monitored, and blows up when it's not. I posted at AN, so it's possible an admin or admins are aware of this already, but no one's said for definite that they'll watch over the WT:BISE page. Hint hint! Let me know, eh?! TFOWR 09:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- An inappropriate block. TR did not insert British Isles, he merely added a useful reference that happens to include the words "British Isles" in the title. The huffing and puffing by the nationalists on this really shows them for what they are. LevenBoy (talk) 11:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- TR did not insert British Isles Oh, really? Both of the edits that prompted the block involved adding the term "British Isles". Interestingly, every editor who has commented here is (so far as I know) British (apart from me, though I do live in Britain). None of the Irish editors have commented here. TFOWR 11:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit that I (probably like many others uninvolved in this) have trouble keeping track of who's who and who is pushing which POV. Having said that, I don't think that it's relevant here. That first edit changes "Britain" to "British Isles". If that were by itself, I'd be asking whether that were really worth sanctions.
The second edit is the problematic one. It removes any mention of the separate legal system of Scotland, bunches England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland into one, and calls it "added refs". That's certainly problematic editing, both as to the cavalier regard that it towards factual accuracy that it demonstrates (not only does one of the sources cited explicitly say "The AHA 1986 and the ATA 1995 do not apply in Scotland, where the relevant legislation is largely contained in the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act 1991." but even the article itself before editing stated that Scotland had a separate legal system), as well as the misleading edit summary. So whilst the first edit doesn't indicate tendentiousness here, the second seems to be a strong indicator (as does the name-calling on the article's talk page), and is good evidence that sanctions against such tendentiousness should be applied. When nationalism overrules accuracy in one's editing, then one has become a problem for the encyclopaedia.
I've put Scotland back. Shame on you nationalist warriors for having an article lose an entire country's legal system as a side-effect of your bad editing! Uncle G (talk) 14:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with what Uncle G says. Under the cover of adding references, that edit unreasonably merged all of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland into one section, when they actually had/have separate systems. Damned nationalist POV pushers, Wikipedia would be better without all of them. Fences&Windows 14:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think, to be honest, I would have blocked on the first edit alone. TritonRocker is topic banned, and required to not make that edit - regardless whether it was correct or not. They've already been blocked once (admittedly by yours truly) for violating that topic ban, so I take the view there's systematic behaviour here and that the original topic ban (applied by Black Kite) was correct. There is a process in place at WT:BISE which the vast majority of editors appear happy with - editors of both persuasions. TritonRocker's behaviour seems to me to be somewhat "newbie-ish" - a belief that the way to get things done is to rip the piss out of WP:BOLD - there's a WP:DEADLINE, things must be done now or we'll lose the WP:BATTLE. Plenty of us were exactly like that not so long ago. The problem here is that if that behaviour goes unchallenged it provokes other editors. This area was a nightmare when Black Kite wasn't involved. It's not too bad now, because the provocations are kept in check. Editors seem pretty happy with a "raise issue, discuss, get consensus, make edit" process. Well, most editors, anyway... TFOWR 14:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Just for the record, the agreement on the talk page was to keep the three legal legal Jurisdictions separate. After they had been artificially bundled together to create an excuse to use British Isles, I separated them again, doing my best to preserve some good content changes that had been made by Triton Rocker (he is frustrating in that he does good work but ignores agreed process and sanctions). So I think it may have been my fault that Scotland got lost in the process for which apologies - I was avoiding a simple revert. Thanks for putting it back in. Not sure if the insertion of British Isles as a term can be laid at the feet of nationalist POV pushers, but not to worry. What is clear is that the sanctions are preventing edit warring and creating a better editing environment with most issues now being settled quickly. If the sort of behaviour that Triton has displayed is not subject to sanction then there is no constraint on another outbreak of edit waring. --Snowded TALK 15:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think, to be honest, I would have blocked on the first edit alone. TritonRocker is topic banned, and required to not make that edit - regardless whether it was correct or not. They've already been blocked once (admittedly by yours truly) for violating that topic ban, so I take the view there's systematic behaviour here and that the original topic ban (applied by Black Kite) was correct. There is a process in place at WT:BISE which the vast majority of editors appear happy with - editors of both persuasions. TritonRocker's behaviour seems to me to be somewhat "newbie-ish" - a belief that the way to get things done is to rip the piss out of WP:BOLD - there's a WP:DEADLINE, things must be done now or we'll lose the WP:BATTLE. Plenty of us were exactly like that not so long ago. The problem here is that if that behaviour goes unchallenged it provokes other editors. This area was a nightmare when Black Kite wasn't involved. It's not too bad now, because the provocations are kept in check. Editors seem pretty happy with a "raise issue, discuss, get consensus, make edit" process. Well, most editors, anyway... TFOWR 14:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with what Uncle G says. Under the cover of adding references, that edit unreasonably merged all of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland into one section, when they actually had/have separate systems. Damned nationalist POV pushers, Wikipedia would be better without all of them. Fences&Windows 14:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit that I (probably like many others uninvolved in this) have trouble keeping track of who's who and who is pushing which POV. Having said that, I don't think that it's relevant here. That first edit changes "Britain" to "British Isles". If that were by itself, I'd be asking whether that were really worth sanctions.
- TR did not insert British Isles Oh, really? Both of the edits that prompted the block involved adding the term "British Isles". Interestingly, every editor who has commented here is (so far as I know) British (apart from me, though I do live in Britain). None of the Irish editors have commented here. TFOWR 11:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- An inappropriate block. TR did not insert British Isles, he merely added a useful reference that happens to include the words "British Isles" in the title. The huffing and puffing by the nationalists on this really shows them for what they are. LevenBoy (talk) 11:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If TR wants to continue to shoot him/herself in the foot, so be it. GoodDay (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
3 mobile blocked
I am semi-retired, but have made a very few edits logged out. Today I tried to make an edit and got a blocked message. Today's IP (it changes every time I reconnect) had made no edits prior to this, and nothing appears in the block log for this. I have asked the blocking admin to reconsider, but she hasn't been active for about 12 hours. Her talk page is also semi-protected, so IPs and non-autoconfirmed editors cannot contact her. DuncanHill (talk) 12:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand. Will you explain more? AboundingHinata (talk) 12:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Why are you editing when logged out? Oh, I see: "to avoid being drawn into disputes with admins."[87] Sorry, no sympathy. You're socking using an IP to avoid scrutiny, and then complaining when you're not able to do so due to a checkuser rangeblock. If you want to retire your account and switch to IP editing, go right ahead, but being "semi-retired" and editing with IP addresses is not on. WP:BOOMERANG. Fences&Windows 13:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Erm, this is the third new thread on this. The others are here and here. Can we close this one down please in favour of one of the others? Roger Davies talk 13:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not until Fences and Windows withdraws his comment. This thread was started first. I'm not socking, just editing anonymously, and until this had done nothing more than to restore some redirects and try to add a single valid wikilink. As an IP I don't comment on other editors, or get involved on WP-space or talk pages. I am unable to follow Fences suggestion of only editing with IP addresses because of the block of several thousand IP addresses from my IP provider which is what I am complaining about. DuncanHill (talk) 13:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- The answer I suppose to that is that most editors prefer to edit in an environment which is not being continually disrupted by vandalism. IP block ranges may be a blunt weapon but they're the only tool we've got for the moment against widespread vandalism from random IPs coming from the same network. It's a question of which is the lesser of the two evils. Roger Davies talk 14:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You're (trying to) edit logged out to avoid scrutiny. If you want to retire that account fully then go ahead and do it, but a halfway house of sometimes editing via IPs and sometimes via an account is hardly acceptable. Fences&Windows 17:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to avoid scrutiny, I'm trying to avoid scrutinising the likes of you. I only want to edit by IP, and only in article space, and only correcting/adding wikilinks, but am prevented from doing so by this rangeblock. The instructions given to IPs caught in a rangeblock are to log in - you are attacking me for following the instructions. The only reason I logged in was to raise the problem of the crappy instructions in the template. I fully appreciate that you want the template to be obscure, confusing and unhelpful, but having a go at someone who follows the instructions in it is just idiotic. Sterling representative of the admin class you are. I can't remember and don't care what your grudge against me is, but try to express it in a more intelligent way please. I hate the inevitable kicking that admins like you dish out to anyone who raises a problem. Just fix the fucking notice IPs get when innocently caught in a checkuser block. That and exercise a bit more care when blocking the largest 3G network in the UK. DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Keep your hair on. "The likes of me", eh? I'm all upset now. I have no grudge against you, as far as I know I've never ever come across you before (which was my good fortune, it seems). Swearing won't make anyone listen to you. Where's this template then? Fences&Windows 20:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- "The likes of you" = "admins who berate editors for doing exactly as they were told". The template is whatever generates the incomprehensible instructions for IP editors caught in a checkuser rangeblock, as you will already know because you read this thread and those Roger linked to above, instead of commenting from utter ignorance, as I'm sure you would never do. If you bait someone enough, they'll start swearing at you. Nice sly dig with the "good fortune" comment - well done. DuncanHill (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- MediaWiki:Blockedtext. – iridescent 20:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ta, I just found it too. I think the thread at Wikipedia:AN#Updating Checkuserblock template is where this is best continued. Fences&Windows 20:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Keep your hair on. "The likes of me", eh? I'm all upset now. I have no grudge against you, as far as I know I've never ever come across you before (which was my good fortune, it seems). Swearing won't make anyone listen to you. Where's this template then? Fences&Windows 20:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to avoid scrutiny, I'm trying to avoid scrutinising the likes of you. I only want to edit by IP, and only in article space, and only correcting/adding wikilinks, but am prevented from doing so by this rangeblock. The instructions given to IPs caught in a rangeblock are to log in - you are attacking me for following the instructions. The only reason I logged in was to raise the problem of the crappy instructions in the template. I fully appreciate that you want the template to be obscure, confusing and unhelpful, but having a go at someone who follows the instructions in it is just idiotic. Sterling representative of the admin class you are. I can't remember and don't care what your grudge against me is, but try to express it in a more intelligent way please. I hate the inevitable kicking that admins like you dish out to anyone who raises a problem. Just fix the fucking notice IPs get when innocently caught in a checkuser block. That and exercise a bit more care when blocking the largest 3G network in the UK. DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Noticed this because I'm on the same network, and recently got caught by the same rangeblock. (Logging on to Wikipedia via a phone is fiddly; if it's just a case of correcting a noncontroversial typo, I don't generally bother.) With no comments on the merits of this case, how does this differ from User:Brucejenner, who is one of our most disruptive long-term vandals but in which the checkusers refuse to rangeblock his phone provider because of the collateral damage it would cause? Seems inconsistent. – iridescent 17:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not until Fences and Windows withdraws his comment. This thread was started first. I'm not socking, just editing anonymously, and until this had done nothing more than to restore some redirects and try to add a single valid wikilink. As an IP I don't comment on other editors, or get involved on WP-space or talk pages. I am unable to follow Fences suggestion of only editing with IP addresses because of the block of several thousand IP addresses from my IP provider which is what I am complaining about. DuncanHill (talk) 13:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a little concerned that the second sentence of this complaint reads "I have asked the blocking admin to reconsider, but she hasn't been active for about 12 hours." (emphasis mine) No editor, administrator, checkuser or other person in any role on Wikipedia is expected to be logged in and available for immediate response 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. A 12-hour absence is hardly outrageous, and shouldn't be the subject of an ANI discussion at the best of times.
Alison's talk page has been pretty well permanently semi-protected due to massive, near constant inappropriate editing by a wide range of abusive accounts and IPs, including harassment, abuse, outing, and other private or non-public information about a large number of editors; trying to keep it free from such abuse when it is unprotected consumes the time and energy of multiple administrators, and the same thing has happened in the past on "IP editable" pages. Wikipedia is not a suicide pact, and the inconvenience for a legitimate IP editor to post on that specific page really doesn't balance out against the widespread abuse that has happened every time protection is lifted from the page.
I think it is agreed that there can be some improvements made in the blocking notice. As well, the range block will be reviewed by other checkusers, as is standard when we receive such requests. I personally do not see a "socking" issue here, as there is no reason to think that DuncanHill has logged out to comment on talk pages or in project space. The desire for a registered user to edit without logging in while using his/her mobile phone does not constitute an emergency that requires immediate checkuser attention, however. One-week range blocks are unfortunate but sometimes necessary to try to reduce harm to the project as a whole; the problem user being addressed here has been harassing and disruptive on multiple projects throughout the WMF, and editors from multiple projects have been periodically caught in rangeblocks including global ones. Risker (talk) 06:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
IP following me around, reverting my edits and typing "ugly bitch" in hebrew in edit summary's
This IP has been following me around to several articles, reverted all my edits while typing "ugly bitch" in Hebrew in the edit summarys.
You can see what it means in google translate: http://translate.google.com/?langpair=ar%7Cen#iw%7Cen%7C%D7%91%D7%AA%20%D7%96%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA
Salvia hierosolymitana [92][93]
Brown Bear [94][95] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- In addition, after digging a little further, I suggest (and will also suggest on your talk pages) that you and User:Chesdovi avoid editing the same articles, or at least avoid confrontation with each other. Nothing good will come of insults being lobbed back and forth across an old and continuing dispute. Frank | talk 16:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have blocked this user for unacceptable personal attacks in an edit summary. Crum375 (talk) 16:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I deleted the edit summaries I saw -- not sure I got all of them.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
URGENT ! !
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Wikipedia:Child protection next time. TFOWR 19:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
somebody please performs CU and alerts the Police of User:Pompous Trihedron. Dr. Loosmark 18:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could you direct us to some of his edits? That would speed things along much faster.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe he is refering to his userpage. TbhotchTalk C. 18:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disruptive, box it up. The "complainer" is trying to make a point that there shouldn't be special sensitivity to pedophiles here (guessing). The pompous editor calls himself a "wikipedophile" on his user page. If it really bothers Loosmark, i suggest he contact the editor in question and ask him to remove it. But really, this is a troll.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disruptive report, already removed once by User:SarekOfVulcan. Mauler90 talk 18:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disruptive, box it up. The "complainer" is trying to make a point that there shouldn't be special sensitivity to pedophiles here (guessing). The pompous editor calls himself a "wikipedophile" on his user page. If it really bothers Loosmark, i suggest he contact the editor in question and ask him to remove it. But really, this is a troll.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe he is refering to his userpage. TbhotchTalk C. 18:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Child protection describes what should be done in these cases. Since this seems to me like a poor joke (the editor has also been a "wikipiano"), I have blanked the userpage and left a note on their talk page. Loosmark is welcome to contact ARBOM if they feel there is genuine cause for concern. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe Loosmark could spend a few days making himself useful instead of complaining about everything he comes across, yes? HalfShadow 18:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
We have no way of knowing if the guy was only joking. Maybe he was and maybe he was not. And frankly even if he was joking I find such "jokes" not at all funny and very bad taste indeed and it simply should not be allowed. It's also disturbing that the so called "admin" Sarek attack me and call my report "disruptive". Dr. Loosmark 19:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- So, what does a "wikipedophile" do, tag 5-minute-old articles for speedy deletion? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, far, far worse than that.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Loosmark: you've been linked to Wikipedia:Child protection above. If you thought it was serious, which IMO it almost certainly isn't, you should be following that, which includes "should not be the subject of community discussions or requests for comment or consensus.", I think, so not discussing it here, really... Begoontalk 19:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Like I said I have no idea if it was serious or just a very idiotic joke. What's really appalling is that the 3 clowns above keep making mockery of me for reporting the situation. Dr. Loosmark 19:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know this is closed, but... "Wikipedophile" is a term of abuse used by Something Awful, Encyclopedia Dramatica, 4chan, etc. to describe Wikipedians. That editor notes that they read Something Awful see this comment. Their edit summaries also make clear their contempt for Wikipedia. So not a very constructive editor and I'm surprised they were never blocked (though their recent edits seem innocuous), but also clearly not someone self-identifying as a pedophile. Fences&Windows 19:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Difficult IP editor back
Can I get a quick admin review on this IP editor. I Someone else reported an editor exhibiting the same difficult behaviour the other day and it appears this is the same person. Their edits are, once again, borderline and he/she has now resorted to a personal attacks in edit summaries (if it were not for the latter behaviour I wouldn't have reported it :(). Thanks. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 18:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Are the numerous failed BLP/N reports not enough? You might start using talking pages instead of escalating matters in lieu of putting your case. See personal attacks here and here 90.207.105.117 (talk) 18:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Those edits were made by another user (just for the record, my edit in that conversation thread was, I hope, not at all attacking! And I apologise if it was). The reason I escalated here was the direct personal attack that prompts me to believe your purpose here is disruptive. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 18:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I confirm to you that it is not. Please WP:AGF, thanks 90.207.105.117 (talk) 19:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Having reviewed all edits made by this IP user, I am in no doubt they are the same user that was brought up to ANI before (as given by the link above).
- They have now virtually admitted that they are cherry picking sources on specific people in an attempt to damage them through Wikipedia hereMonkeymanman (talk) 19:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- How am I attempting to damage him? Did I convict him or report it in national newspapers? Based on your previous involvement, I think you need to decide if you are a biographer or a PR person (for Glasgow Rangers, mostly). Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 19:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It looks like the same user. That other IP was apparently connected to User:Eliteimp, who has not edited since their 1 week block expired. It might be worth a formal SPI to connect this IP range to Eliteimp, as that account was blocked on the basis of behaviour, not a checkuser report. The attack of "bedwetter" was relatively mild - can anyone provide diffs to show BLP problems? Fences&Windows 19:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fences, if your happy (the attack was mild but it tipped the balance for me given past history). In terms of BLP issues there is the difficulty - the edits broadly consist of tabloid sourced material (which on the one hand is not necessarily an issue); the problem is a lot of the material is negative about the subject and to my mind (and others too) the sourcing doesn't always weigh against the material. The other issue is that there is a tendency to use non-neutral wording in edits despite several reminders about current WP policy :( In terms of examples: [96] (charges were dropped, such things are not usually included in BLP's), [97] (tabloid sourced allegation) and non-BLP addition: [98] (unattributed opinion). I've tried to keep dialogue open with this editor but there has been no change to the pattern of edits and resistance/vague anger at every turn :( I don;t feel my help is being accepted in good faith.--Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 21:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Here's one [99]. At that stage I had been concerned at COI or POV issues from Tmorton166 (describing BLP subjects as "a piece of work") but decided to show good faith and try to work collaboratively. I continued this even after the personal attacks above. I continued with it through numerous BLP/Ns which had decidedly mixed outcomes. One was ignored and one resulted in the offending additions being promoted to their own section. To me these repeated ANIs look very much like forumshopping.
- I confirm to you that it is not. Please WP:AGF, thanks 90.207.105.117 (talk) 19:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Those edits were made by another user (just for the record, my edit in that conversation thread was, I hope, not at all attacking! And I apologise if it was). The reason I escalated here was the direct personal attack that prompts me to believe your purpose here is disruptive. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 18:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You will note that the Eliteimp account, unjustly banned in my absence, is primarily to do with women's football - a subject with which I have no interest whatsoever. Again, I sometimes but not always work from a shared computer. Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 20:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is a distinct difference between having a personal opinion and how one writes about a subject. For example: I have pretty strong personal opinions but make great effort to retain neutral language when I write on Wikipedia. That was the point I was trying to make in the reply you highlight. Every time I point you at BLP, NPOV or other policy you seem to just shrug and carry on making edits like this - words like "vehemently" and so forth are simply not very neutral or detached! --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 21:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Such words can be neutral and detached if it used accurately and sourced. I would suggest, in that case given the strength and volume of all his reported denials, indignation, excuses etc. that 'vehement' is fair enough. I just thought it was odd (and disappointing) that you would advertise your strong personal opinions on the subject. I didn't open an ANI about it though!
- My edits have weeded out many factual errors and unsourced puffery. I am happy that I have a positive contribution to make, despite continual attacks and ill-founded reports. Fundamentally, we all need to remember that we are biographers and not PR people. Apologies in advance if you misconstrue this response as vague anger. Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Such words only really work if a source describes the denials as vehement. Otherwise it is original research to source his denials and then tag it as vehement. All I am asking is that you pick words with more care. In terms of that opinion I was trying to find common ground with what appeared to be your stance on the guy (to avoid the common comeback I often see of "you just like the guy so are trying to cover up for him"). To my mind it seems good to talk about your own views on a subject because it can help to be a stop-check on your own work (a few times I have written talk page responses which help get my own head round neutrally wording content) --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 22:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should take this discussion to a talk page (mine, yours or one of the articles - I'll let you choose :)) --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 22:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Such words only really work if a source describes the denials as vehement. Otherwise it is original research to source his denials and then tag it as vehement. All I am asking is that you pick words with more care. In terms of that opinion I was trying to find common ground with what appeared to be your stance on the guy (to avoid the common comeback I often see of "you just like the guy so are trying to cover up for him"). To my mind it seems good to talk about your own views on a subject because it can help to be a stop-check on your own work (a few times I have written talk page responses which help get my own head round neutrally wording content) --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 22:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If we are now as one that this is essentially a content dispute, could you explain your repeated recourse to BLP/N and ANI? Obviously I would wish to avoid further ANI reports if and when I use a word you don't think is 'neutral.' Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I opened the BLP report because of your history of adding unsourced allegations to articles. I opened the AN/I notice after the direct attack edit summrty that left me concerned your intentions might be disruptive and your apparent continued WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with regards to neutral wording. As we have a dialogue going that seems a happy outcome (to me anyway). If you have a specific complaint about how I behaved please feel free to open a relevant thread --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 22:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Considering most of your reports have failed or backfired I would suggest it is you who might reflect upon WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. If you wish to report the addition of unsourced allegations, please supply diffs. Admins will note the cherrypicked 'examples' above were all sourced more than adequately. Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- They have worked as intended :) to my mind anyway. If I have broached reporting policy I expect to be chastised or reminded. The examples I provided above are all legitimately problematic for reasons raised - they were cherry picked in the sense that they are examples and that some of your contribution is good. As long as we have dialogue I for one am happy --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 23:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If we are now as one that this is essentially a content dispute, could you explain your repeated recourse to BLP/N and ANI? Obviously I would wish to avoid further ANI reports if and when I use a word you don't think is 'neutral.' Thanks, 90.207.105.117 (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Gilad Atzmon -- restoration of material in violation of WP:BLPDEL
Gilad Atzmon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There are a couple of editors bent on smearing the subject of this BLP with accusations of anti-semitism. I have twice removed a sentence based on a "working paper", noting that a working paper by definition is not "published" and fails WP:RS, particularly as used for support of highly contentious material in a WP:BLP. WP:BLPDEL requires that material deleted on such grounds cannot be restored until there is consensus, and it is nonetheless being restored. I'd be grateful for some admin input here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I would note that both editors, Drsmoo (talk · contribs) and RTLamp (talk · contribs), are essentially SPAs. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have edited on a multitude of articles as one can see by checking my editing history. Not that it is in any way shape or form relevant to the notability of this or any other article.
- Here is the article in question http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/hirsh/David%20Hirsh%20YIISA%20Working%20Paper1.pdf It is also worth noting, contrary to any "poisoning the well" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well that Atzmon regularly proclaims himself a "proud self hating Jew", allies himself with and reposts articles from far right authors and Holocaust denier, is published regularly on KKK sites, and in no way shape or form distances himself from any of his antisemitic comments. Despite the above editor's contention, most editors on the article are merely accurately reposting the most notable sources which discuss the subject. Drsmoo (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I have edited on a multitude of articles as one can see by checking my editing history. Not that it is in any way shape or form relevant to the notability of this or any other article.
Prolific non-admin AfD closer redux
As a follow up to this ANI thread involving my actions at AFD, I've started a discussion at WT:DELPRO about the practice of closing AFDs that lack participation as "no consensus" instead of a second relist. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Question on Phone number posted on talk page
No oversight needed
I prodded an article earlier today and I received a message on my talk page listing the phone number of a physicists university office number. I betting the creator of the artitlce got it off the university website but decided to bring it here because i dont know if it needs oversight? I have removed it from my talk page does need more to be done?Weaponbb7 (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If it's actually already posted on their website then it's already "out there" anyway and probably does not need oversight. More information, including how to contact oversighters directly, is at WP:OVERSIGHT. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
R1r1f2
This brand new user (the account was created July 20th) is making some very strange, unhelpful, and even suspicious edits. On only their second edit ever with the account they stated (in an edit summary to a subpage off their talk page) "not roozie12 or roozie1219 or jacob1219".
Well lets see:
- roozie12 (talk · contribs) was blocked in march for Wikipedia:Competence is required - I've never even seen that block reason given
- roozie1219 (talk · contribs) Also blocked in March for being a sock of User:Roozie12
- Jacob1219 (talk · contribs) Blocked (Disruptive editing: Roozie12, still lacking the competence to contribute constructively)
What caught my eye today was this person editing the page of a recently blocked sock puppet (Urboogyman). That investigation of sock master Pickles0001 was just closed today. Why would a brand new user want to edit a page of a newly blocked user?
Some other strange edits include:
- Notifying 87.82.10.6 about a test edit on Airblue that wasn't a test edit. The edit was valid and still stands. That IP user turned out to be a user who simply hadn't noticed that he was no longer logged in.
- Their eighth ever edit was to their User:R1r1f2/monobook.js page.
- Their ninth ever edit was to request speedy deletion of their own user page.
- Their twelfth edit was to request speedy deletion of the Mars article. (!)
- And their thirteenth edit was to request speedy deletion of the 2010 Japan Football League article.
What does all this mean. Well this looks like an incompetent and disruptive duck. Dawnseeker2000 23:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
i will stop --R1r1f2 (chat) jhi (talk) 23:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/R1r1f2 - Dawnseeker2000 02:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
In September 2009, User talk:GabrielVelasquez placed a {{retired}} template on his User and Talk pages, but has been active since then. A few weeks ago, I went to the user's talk page to comment about the re-opening of an AfD in which the editor had been involved in June 2010. Because the editor was evidently still editing, I removed the {{retired}} template from his User and Talk pages on 25 July 2010, after having left a Talk page comment to that effect on 23 July.
He responded today by reinstating the template, with an edit summary, "Undid revision 375343143 by Jeffro77 VANDALISM - Stay Off my user page ASSHOLE!" Not along after, User:208.87.197.82, who I believe to be User:GabrielVelasquez editing anonymously on a dynamic IP (checkuser please), claimed I vandalised the article Nontrinitarianism, with an edit summary, "Undid revision 373942348 by Jeffro77 VANDALISM, JWs make MANY tracts on a variety of topics!!! Desperate attack!!". (The 'vandalism' in question consisted of correcting a typographical error from "track" to "tract" with a comment that JWs don't make tracks.) The user created a section on the article's Talk page claiming I had vandalised the article,[100] and left a complaint with User:Toddst1 about the alleged vandalism[101] (which he rightly dismissed)[102].
I acknowledge that it was probably unnecessary to remove the {{retired}} template, but consider the editor's reaction to be unnecessarily disproportionate and their editing to be disingenuous.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- If neither the IP nor Gabriel bothers you again (without even speculating on a link) would you consider the matter closed? What I mean to say is, can this be resolved without an admin intervening? Protonk (talk) 01:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Updating Arbitration policy
The latest draft of the proposed update to the Arbitration policy is here with discussion of the draft here. All editors are cordially invited to participate. Roger Davies talk 03:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Odokee
Earlier this month (and even though this is still somewhat being discussed on various guideline talk pages), I had found that several articles on video games and related topics were missing the romanizations of their Japanese titles. Odokee (talk · contribs) has for the past two months seen fit to revert me on several articles and on multiple occasions on the same article. The following are every single instance where he has removed romanized Japanese from articles, despite my requests on his talk page, and others' requests, not to.
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The instance on Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars listed above is not the only instance of his reverts on that page. His previous edit was falsely listed as an undo, giving the false impression that the content being removed in that edit was vandalism by that IP when he was undoing this edit and my own from ten days prior.
In addition to all of this, he has been flat out ignoring any comments left on his talk page, citing every removal as "rm spam" when it is most certainly not the case:
As it can be seen from my last comment to him, I requested that he change his disruptive editing behavior on articles and on his talk page, or else I would bring his behavior to the attention of the community. Well here I am. Such disruptive editing on articles, putting blatantly false information in edit summaries to hide what he is doing, and flat out ignoring the comments of other editors should not be condoned any further.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
And he saw fit to remove my notification of this thread as spam as well.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
not related |
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Administrator: Philip Baird Shearer
I have received a message on my talk page from the administrator Philip Baird Shearer, which is basically a "cease and desist" notice backed up a threat to block over the issue of the archiving of what was an on going discussion at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Descriptive & segmented article titles. I do not believe this message to represent an appropriate use of admin powers, and I don't think gagging a discussion is any way appropriate. If Philip has an objection to the discussion, he is free to say so, and ideally spell out why he objects. Alternatively, he can drop out of the discussion at any time. What is not appropriate is to halt, impede or generally inhibit constructive and detailed discussions about complex issues just because he can. As an ordinary editor, I do not think low level bullying of this nature is acceptable anywhere, let alone on Wikipedia. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 07:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)