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:*'''Endorse.''' Though I'm not sure if it will make a difference. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACult_free_world&diff=211022954&oldid=210813448 Here] is the user's response to his ban -- he doesn't understand there's a problem. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 14:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
:*'''Endorse.''' Though I'm not sure if it will make a difference. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACult_free_world&diff=211022954&oldid=210813448 Here] is the user's response to his ban -- he doesn't understand there's a problem. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 14:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:*'''Endorse''' This user had been a suspected sock of previous users (now perm blocked) who have repeatedly tried to publish strong POV info against this topic - Sahaj Marg, Shri Ram Chandra Mission, SRCM. Because of lack of firm evidence (old users) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Cult_free_world this sock report] got closed just short of confirming this. Despite all that, I tried to work very patiently with CFW [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world#Reaching_out_to_you], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page#Duty2Love here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page#4d-don here], only to still not get his cooperation. In light of the fact that since last sept. there have been several attempts to post such information which ended up in deletes after a long discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shri_Ram_Chandra_Mission_%28Chennai%29], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shri_Ram_Chandra_Mission_%28Shahjahanpur%29], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Institute_of_Sri_Ram_Chandra_Consciousness] I would vote for a topic ban. Can someone tell how broad would the ban be? (''New Religious Movements" and "Cults" or just ''Sahaj Marg/Shri Ram Chandra Mission/SRCM''). [[User:Duty2love|Duty2love]] ([[User talk:Duty2love|talk]]) 16:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
:*'''Endorse''' This user had been a suspected sock of previous users (now perm blocked) who have repeatedly tried to publish strong POV info against this topic - Sahaj Marg, Shri Ram Chandra Mission, SRCM. Because of lack of firm evidence (old users) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Cult_free_world this sock report] got closed just short of confirming this. Despite all that, I tried to work very patiently with CFW [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world#Reaching_out_to_you], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page#Duty2Love here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page#4d-don here], only to still not get his cooperation. In light of the fact that since last sept. there have been several attempts to post such information which ended up in deletes after a long discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shri_Ram_Chandra_Mission_%28Chennai%29], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shri_Ram_Chandra_Mission_%28Shahjahanpur%29], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Institute_of_Sri_Ram_Chandra_Consciousness] I would vote for a topic ban. Can someone tell how broad would the ban be? (''New Religious Movements" and "Cults" or just ''Sahaj Marg/Shri Ram Chandra Mission/SRCM''). [[User:Duty2love|Duty2love]] ([[User talk:Duty2love|talk]]) 16:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:*''Endorse'' I have tried to work with him now as two of the three different socks, and looked over his actions of the other sock. His behavior is the same each time. Nothing has changed, depsite having wikipedia policies explained litterally a hundred times to him, he just pushes on with his agenda. I don't see any change happening anytime soon. And of course, like the governer of California, he'll be back. [[User:Sethie|Sethie]] ([[User talk:Sethie|talk]]) 05:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== Checkuser confirmed persistent sockmaster needs indef == |
== Checkuser confirmed persistent sockmaster needs indef == |
Revision as of 05:09, 10 May 2008
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Poetlister unblock clarification
Following the unblock of user:Poetlister, there was some degree of (predictable) contention on the user's talk page whether the user was in fact properly blocked or not, and whether evidence supported this.
I feel strongly that this information would be worth summarizing to clarify the situation once and for all.
I have documented the circumstances and evidence of the blocks as part of my review of the block at ArbCom. To do this, I re-examined the evidence completely from scratch one last time, without any assumption whatsoever, from the original contributions, logs, and checkuser findings. I also (from scratch) rechecked the contribs for possible stacked pages, and every email on arbcom-l archives from 2005 onwards covering Poetlister's block, not relying on hearsay or others' self-selected evidence there, either.
In brief, the evidence that the eleven accounts concerned were abusive sockpuppets, was exceptionally strong. It covered both checkuser and behavior. It was as compelling as Archtransit; indeed as compelling and more extensively reviewed and rechecked than any other admin sock case I am aware of, ever.
- Background
What ended up as the Runcorn sock ring was originally detected and blocked as sockpuppets of RachelBrown in 2005. It was unblocked not because of a flaw in the findings, but in effect, for good faith and a second chance, the unblocking admin specifically commenting to that effect on arbcom-l email and multiple others agreeing with the findings (see block log). Nine hours after Poetlister was blocked, the account Runcorn was created, which acted as a "good hand" account, and was RFA'ed in August 2006. (More specifically, Poetlister was blocked at 21:52, December 21, 2005, and Runcorn was created 12:36, December 22, 2005, nine hours later) Following RFA, the Runcorn account immediately (2 - 4 days later) began experimenting with unblocking and soft blocking anonymous proxies, and the entire sock ring moved to tor to hide their IPs and provide an alibi (both "Poetlister" and "Taxwoman" claimed later that nobody ever shared their PC and Poetlister stated if there was other use of the IP it was due to use of tor). The Runcorn account was routinely used to soften the hard IP-blocks on open proxies for the benefit of the other socks. However despite these attempts at obfustication, we were able in 2007 to checkuser them again and re-confirm they had indeed all been very likely using the same PC despite their claims. (Prior to this, on many dates the socks had used the same internet connection often minutes apart, one after the other.)
We looked closely at the alibi given, that these were all extremely close friends or room-mates. There was strong evidence that claims made by the users, including claims to be different people, were incorrect. Examples of the rebuttals I looked into included: that an SSP report was factually unreliable (filed by someone with a grudge), the block in 2007 was based on 2005's evidence only, the 2005 unblock proved innocence, the 2005 checkuser findings were unreliable, the allegations were tenuously founded. All inaccurate. I reviewed the evidence of the 2005 checkuser findings, and note that Kelly Martin's blog claims don't in any way contradict the core findings of common IP usage, nor do the 2005 findings contradict 2007. They support them. I re-examined the case for meatpuppetry rather than sockpuppetry, or "friends with similar interests" as well. No dice. Sockpuppetry remains the clear conclusion. For me, the evidence is compelling.
- Extract - Couldn't it just be multiple users on the same computer?
- The Committee has frequently held that, when users are editing in concert in a fashion that is indistinguishable from one user operating multiple accounts, it should be considered sockpuppetry. Even if Poetlister's contention is true, the treatment is in accordance with well established policy. The account operator had a warning of communal and ArbCom concerns as early as December 2005 -- and the response was to ignore WP:SOCK (which the user obviously knew of) and instead create a new sock account immediately (Runcorn, 9 hours later) and seek to promote it to RFA, where the sockmaster immediately began using it to unblock anonymous proxies and add weight to the abusive agendas and stacking activities of the other existing socks.
- All of this then led to a ban for the continuing identical conduct as 2005, plus admin tool abuse, in 2007.
- If these were indeed different individuals (not a likely interpretation in the view of the many people who have rechecked the findings over time), then even so there was still gross willful abuse -- stacking via meatpuppetry, edit war team-tagging, and pushing of a COI and POV agenda on Wipipedia and its AFD via the admin account Runcorn and various others, as a sock/meatpuppetry ring.
- But our interpretation overall (2005, 2007, 2008) is this is not the case. The view in both 2005 and 2007 (and 2008) was of clear-cut sockpuppetry. Either way, the use was abusive and likely intended to be concealed.
- Extract - Kelly Martin's statement
- Kelly Martin has stated she felt "pressured" to accept CU findings from 2005.
- In fact the findings were considerably stronger than this suggests, showing considerable use by multiple users of the same IP within minutes of each other, for multiple ISPs, on multiple dates. Further CU findings from 2007 showed identical patterns, plus clear attempts to hide these via a (flawed) switch to anonymous proxies. This also allowed checkusers in 2007 to confirm that statements about not having shared computers, were likely to be incorrect.
- Since this was May 2007, some 17 months later, and Checkuser data expires after a shorter period of time, the checkuser results being discussed are doubly confirmed as not being the ones KM is talking about, but newer checks in 2007, additional to the 2005 checks (which blatantly supported the same findings in the opinion of all other checkusers). A total of at least 7 experienced checkusers each independently rechecked the Checkuser results on the Runcorn/Poetlister group generally and came to the same conclusion. Additional to all of this there was considerable review of their findings and possible interpretations, by the Arbitration Committee.
Poetlister has repeatedly claimed to have done nothing wrong. This is not entirely accurate. An actual list of debates apparently "stacked" by Poetlister in breach of WP:SOCK includes:
- Talk:List of British Jews (with Newport [1] [2])
- Team tag reversion in an edit war with an IP editor, on Cut to the chase, with Runcorn and LondonEye [3];
- Consensus stacking at Talk:Rosemary Tonks (with Brownlee [4] - Poetlister - Brownlee - Poetlister)
- A significant number of RFAs and AFDs. (See below)
As a sock-farm, these accounts stacked a number of debates (including some 40 RFAs, almost 60 xFDs, and an unknown number of article discussions), tried (incorrectly) to manipulate proxies to allow better hidden abuse or less easy detection following the 2005 block/unblocks, and supported COI/POV based edit warring on articles of interest to the sockmaster.
As the administrator "Runcorn", the sockmaster also mis-stated communal norms to parties disputing with the other socks (to the advantage of the other socks), closed discussions favorably, and spuriously blocked (and attempt to blacken and ban) a user who tried to draw communal attention to these actions, giving reasons that were completely spurious. (The user was quickly unblocked.)
There was also considerable behavioral evidence to support that these were all the same user.
Especially, their conduct towards each other is strange when one considers later claims these are closest of friends, indeed in some cases housemates and real-world friends/old family friends, people who hold hands at the computer, and the like. The behavior of these users on-wiki does not substantiate the story of "extreme close friends" portrayed in their explanations. They did not act as friends. What they did was stack votes, engage in socklike behavior and mannerisms, push the same views on the same articles, edit-war tag support each other, create a new account hours after the old ones was blocked, practice unblocking (and then go all out to soft-unblock) previously hard-blocked anonymous proxies for each other (this was Runcorn's main use of block/unblock for several months in 2007)... and to an exceptional degree try not to be noticed very much as connected accounts.
- Unblock
We decided to unblock for one reason, and one reason only. Although the user has engaged in improper activities, they were also bona fide adders of content who have sought to remain involved on other WMF wiki projects, notably Wikiquote. It is a norm of the community that there is always a way back, and we feel that unblocking the Poetlister account for English Wikipedia use will build on the activity at Wikiquote and allow the user concerned to show whether they mean to act well here, almost a year later. It is not exoneration, for the identification as a sock-master was solid and well evidenced. It is rcognition that for whatever reason this was an admin sock-master who - when not abusing admin tools and edit/POV warring - did genuinely add a very wide range of good content as well. There is always a way back for those who wish it and are prepared to show evidence it might work out, and this user is being given his/her chance no less than other users who might be redeemable have been.
Time will tell whether this is a good call. Our hope as a committee is that it will be. For that reason we ask the community to accept the user as one who has sat out their block, and asked for a second chance.
In my mind, it has always been deeply regrettable that no detailed explanation of the evidence was given in 2007. Back then, the methods of analysis were still somewhat new and WP:BEANS was a serious concern when faced with a heavy-duty sock-master who had sought to bury their traces and managed to pass RFA. If it means anything, this is more than words, and we learned from this; the Runcorn admin-sock case and its ensuing dramas were the main reason for the March 2008 Archtransit admin-sock case evidence being explained in full, instead of merely "announced".
All other socks remain blocked and should only be unblocked under consultation with the Arbitration Committee.
FT2 (Talk | email) 15:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
For the Arbitration Committee.
- One point of impaired logic; Poetlisters claim of no wrongdoing is rebutted by evidence of vote stacking - which is only "wrong" if it is accepted that Poetlister socked (which she denies). I also note that "The Committee has frequently held that, when users are editing in concert in a fashion that is indistinguishable from one user operating multiple accounts, it should be considered sockpuppetry. Even if Poetlister's contention is true, the treatment is in accordance with well established policy..." means that the determination of socking in the situation that Poetlister describes is a construct rather than unquestionable evidence.
- You know, it would have been easier just to say "We accept the remote possibility that we might have got this wrong, so we are lifting the block on Poetlister on the basis that the editor will contribute usefully in the future" - even if you think you were right! Nevermind, it will pass but you sometimes have to admit to wrong even where one thinks there is none just for the sake of the encyclopedia. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's fine, and is done when appropriate. In this case nobody of the many who checked the full evidence has concluded it was "wrong" to the extent that your wording would suggest. There is always a "remote chance" since checkuser doesn't sit with a video feed behind a person's computer, but in practical terms there is a point where one says "it's exceptionally likely enough from the behavioral and checkuser evidence, to say that for Wikipedia communal purposes, it may be treated as one user."
- That a remote possibility exists is not the same as acceptance that it is likely. In simple terms, we accept that remote possibility in all sock cases, and try to assess the evidence so that we don't conclude puppetry unless it really does seem to be the likely answer. In this case, that was the repeated conclusion. If a different term is needed for "Sufficiently likely sock to be treated as one", then thats a separate debate. The current norm is such accounts are described as sock puppets. FT2 (Talk | email) 16:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- We have more of a "preponderance of evidence" standard than a "reasonable doubt" standard. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- From what I've heard, it's a myth that some of the suspected socks (I don't recall the details but out of Poetlister, Taxwoman and Runcorn at least) voted on the same AfDs often. Also, wasn't there evidence Runcorn was a different person, given he always got up and started editing about 2 hours before the others?Merkin's mum 16:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- The other evidence was rather more solid than "myth". And the stacking was widespread - some 40 RFAs were affected by this sock-master, and at least one user was blocked (with intent to blacken/ban) on visibly spurious grounds. The Poetlister account was involved in the stacking of 18 of the 60 stacked xFDs and 6 of the 40 stacked RFAs. As well, regarding Runcorn, odds that this new account, who has the same agenda, stacks the same areas of debates, uses admin tools consistently abusively to support the same agendas, edits via the same proxies, with other technical evidence suggesting the same connection, that was created 9 hours after Poetlister was blocked and is claimed to be a close family friend, who joins Wikipedia 9 hours after the block but never once mentions the block..... No. When you add up the existence of the sock ring, and the circumstances, use and agenda of the new account, its edit warring on the identical basis to the other socks... and its activities after RFA which basically serve the socking of the other socks... it is clear that beyond any usual level of evidence we normally require, that this was not a different person, but another GHBH sock. FT2 (Talk | email) 16:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec - with below)Which begs the question why Poetlister is now unblocked... now, I going to shut up in case that last point gets too much interest but my point stands; no matter how convinced the ArbCom/CU is about it being correct it may have been politic to allow the principle of the possibility of doubt being the part of the reason for unblocking to be aired. We may not be having this discussion had it were. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Most sockmasters on this scale purely disrupt, and go out abusing. That's our reading of the 2005 creation of "Runcorn". But this time, in 2007, through the Poetlister account, this user has made attempts to show good conduct for a long period instead, and with success. The idea that such users can be redeemed is meaningless if never given a chance. We decided to give that chance, as Deskana says, because of the work being done showing possibility for change. Time'll tell how it works out. FT2 (Talk | email) 17:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec - with below)Which begs the question why Poetlister is now unblocked... now, I going to shut up in case that last point gets too much interest but my point stands; no matter how convinced the ArbCom/CU is about it being correct it may have been politic to allow the principle of the possibility of doubt being the part of the reason for unblocking to be aired. We may not be having this discussion had it were. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- The other evidence was rather more solid than "myth". And the stacking was widespread - some 40 RFAs were affected by this sock-master, and at least one user was blocked (with intent to blacken/ban) on visibly spurious grounds. The Poetlister account was involved in the stacking of 18 of the 60 stacked xFDs and 6 of the 40 stacked RFAs. As well, regarding Runcorn, odds that this new account, who has the same agenda, stacks the same areas of debates, uses admin tools consistently abusively to support the same agendas, edits via the same proxies, with other technical evidence suggesting the same connection, that was created 9 hours after Poetlister was blocked and is claimed to be a close family friend, who joins Wikipedia 9 hours after the block but never once mentions the block..... No. When you add up the existence of the sock ring, and the circumstances, use and agenda of the new account, its edit warring on the identical basis to the other socks... and its activities after RFA which basically serve the socking of the other socks... it is clear that beyond any usual level of evidence we normally require, that this was not a different person, but another GHBH sock. FT2 (Talk | email) 16:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
To be brief, the Arbitration Committee did not unblock Poetlister on the basis that the block was incorrect, based on faulty evidence, or inappropriate. We unblocked because Poetlister in recognition of the good contributions that have been made to other projects, and because we believe that there will be no further abuse of any kind. That said, this isn't something that needs dwelling on. It's all in the past now. Poetlister is unblocked and welcome to resume editing. Lets be glad of that much, and put the past behind us. --Deskana (talk) 16:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- One clarification please: was the unblock made at Poetlister's request, and if yes - did that request contain any admittance of wrongdoing? MaxSem(Han shot first!) 17:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- There have been ongoing requests by various of the accounts to be unblocked - in fact I received my first before even being appointed to ArbCom. So yes there have been requests. And no - no admission was made. To anticipate the next question, it was because any user has the right to appeal a ban (requesting review isn't a problem), so the former isn't an issue, and the purpose of a block is to protect the wiki and we believe the scope for abuse to recur (especially following communal disclosure of past activities and with communal eyeballs) is sufficiently reduced to cover the latter. Obviously if there were any signs of renewed mis-use then the community will deal with it, but as Deskana says, we aren't punitive, we have a year's positive record showing the user can act well on other projects if they wish to, and we hope it's behind us all. FT2 (Talk | email) 17:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's something that doesn't make sense to me here. Am I reading this right and the arbitration committee is contending that Poetlister, Runcorn, and lots of other people are really the same person? If so and you want to forgive this person, how did you decide to unblock Poetlister, as opposed to Runcorn or one of the other accounts? Maybe I'm just completely missing something here, but it seems like you (collectively, not you personally) are saying that the checkuser evidence was and is correct, but your actions don't reflect that belief. --B (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's been the case since December 2005, and again in May 2007. Yes, same person, same modus, same alibis, same checkuser and behavior evidence, same involvement in same agendas and sock pushing, same stacking on same xFDs and RFAs... Yes.
- Why Poetlister and none of the others? Because the Poetlister name is the one the user chose to reactivate with elsewhere in the community and gained respect on other wikis under, after the socks were removed from this wiki, and most recently appealed under.
- The unblock's explained above. It's a chance to show change, not an exoneration of past socking and abuse. (Sorry, bit rushed here, was due out 2 hours ago)
- FT2 (Talk | email) 19:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's something that doesn't make sense to me here. Am I reading this right and the arbitration committee is contending that Poetlister, Runcorn, and lots of other people are really the same person? If so and you want to forgive this person, how did you decide to unblock Poetlister, as opposed to Runcorn or one of the other accounts? Maybe I'm just completely missing something here, but it seems like you (collectively, not you personally) are saying that the checkuser evidence was and is correct, but your actions don't reflect that belief. --B (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- There have been ongoing requests by various of the accounts to be unblocked - in fact I received my first before even being appointed to ArbCom. So yes there have been requests. And no - no admission was made. To anticipate the next question, it was because any user has the right to appeal a ban (requesting review isn't a problem), so the former isn't an issue, and the purpose of a block is to protect the wiki and we believe the scope for abuse to recur (especially following communal disclosure of past activities and with communal eyeballs) is sufficiently reduced to cover the latter. Obviously if there were any signs of renewed mis-use then the community will deal with it, but as Deskana says, we aren't punitive, we have a year's positive record showing the user can act well on other projects if they wish to, and we hope it's behind us all. FT2 (Talk | email) 17:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
"The Committee has frequently held that, when users are editing in concert in a fashion that is indistinguishable from one user operating multiple accounts, it should be considered sockpuppetry." - What you've not clarified is whether the other accounts - e.g. Londoneye who is a user in good standing on Wikimedia Commons, Taxwoman who still posts as a separate person on WR, should be considered sockpuppets of this user going forward. Whether it "should be considered sockpuppetry" is quite a different question than whether it is in fact sockpuppetry, since the latter closes the door on ever unblocking any of the other accounts. --Random832 (contribs) 19:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Furthermore, the fact that they were able to provide new pictures on demand does in fact mean they are distinguishable from one user operating multiple accounts, whatever their other actions were, so at worst this is meatpuppetry. --Random832 (contribs) 19:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- As much as one can be sure online, the balance of evidence is way, way towards sockpuppetry for all of the accounts. We concluded repeatedly, they are socks not meats. the evidence was very strong, and the alibis weak. Each project acts independently on this, though, as Wikiquote themselves did. Again, apologies, Im outr of the door and will have to follow this thread up tomorrow. FT2 (Talk | email) 19:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Also, how many RFAs had any three or more of the accounts voting in the same direction? How many had any two voting against each other? If you choose a large enough set of accounts, of course you can find numerous AFDs and RFAs that at least two voted on. --Random832 (contribs) 19:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- You speak of the "balance of evidence" - what sort of evidence, in your view, would be required to refute this claim? If they (two or more of them) sent real identification (drivers licence, passports, whatever) to arbcom? If they (two or more of them) showed up in person at a meetup? There has to be _something_. --Random832 (contribs) 19:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Strongly agree with Random832 above - while I'm neutral on who Runcorn is/was, the sheer difference in styles between Poetlister and Taxwoman, the difference between the articles they edit, and the fact that, if they are one person, they've spent much of the last year arguing with themselves on a certain WP:BADSITE do point to at the very least reasonable doubt. As I've argued elsewhere, Taxwoman at the very least was - and would be again - a net benefit to the encyclopedia, given her willingness to clean up articles most of us wouldn't touch with a barge pole. — iride scent 19:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Feh, the assertion is that they are all in the same place, presumably at or near UCL. If they want to meet me for a drink somewhere in the City, I'll verify they are all different people. This acto of selfless devotion has nothing whatever to do with the pictures they uploaded of themselves, not at all, nosiree. Guy (Help!) 20:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, Guy. . .always willing to give until it hurts :-) R. Baley (talk) 20:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Where do I sign up for this sort of wikiwork or is it an admin thing only ;) EconomicsGuy (talk) 03:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, Guy. . .always willing to give until it hurts :-) R. Baley (talk) 20:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Can some kind of language or edit summary analysis be done like what was done on the Mantanmoreland arbitration case that showed the Mantanmoreland socks had unique edit summaries? William Ortiz (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I went through the various accounts' contrib histories in quite a bit of detail, and absolutely everything (voting and editing patterns, timing, everything), pointed to sockpuppetry. I'm all for second chances, and I always have been, but I would like to see a requirement to admit to socking and identify all socks used before unblocking. That being said, if ArbCom has decided to unblock, well then, it is their decision. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Did they even have certain unique phrases of speech nobody else used? William Ortiz (talk) 23:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Random832 removed Runcorn from the list of banned users with the rationale: If there is only one person behind these accounts, then who is banned?[5] and an edit summary of Per the official story that all these accounts are still considered the same person who is being allowed to come back as Poetlister - if this story is accepted then the unblock constitutes an unban.[6] I have undo that edit, as Runcorn is still banned, and the Arbitrators have made it clear that this unban is based on the proviso that the harm cant be done with only one account being unbanned. There is no "official story" - there is only what we can reliable deduce, and what we can reliably assume. In this case, the CUers are saying they can reliably deduce that there was abuse of WP:SOCK, and due to Poetlisters continued fruitful involvement in other projects and her own recent commitments to not edit via open proxies we can reliably assume she is a dedicated Wikimedia and will keep her word. We may never know the true story. Ultimately it doesn't matter - Runcorns use of the admin tool was unacceptable. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure who said the above - not me - Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)]
- Why can't the publishable part of the evidence be published in detail as part of the requirements of her unblock? If the community's required to watch her, we should know what to watch for. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- What to watch for? That is easy : involvement in Jewish related community votes. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Bans are on people, not accounts. And unless there is some other person involved (which everyone seems to deny), there is no person who is banned. --Random832 (contribs) 01:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Given that the operators of the Poetlister and Runcorn accounts are the same person (which was the whole reason for the ban in the first place), it does indeed seem that ArbCom has, in effect, lifted the ban and allowed that person to again edit under the Poetlister account. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Random832, until arbcom removes the ban on Runcorn, your reading of this situation is incorrect. These accounts were banned because of violations of WP:SOCK - that includes meatpuppeting, which is one explanation, however unlikely that might be. As far as I know, the banned users claim they are different people. It is extraordinary that Runcorn is banned yet Poetlister is not, even though there is a significant community belief that they are the same person. Thankfully, arbcom have done the extraordinary and let the Poetlister account resume editing. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Guy's joke comment above is actually a good one. If these people are all in London, and someone were to meet them "face to face" wouldn't that put an end to all the sockpuppetry talk if many believe it false? If they're all separate people, then, wouldn't they all just have to be unblocked with a big apology? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 05:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- It makes perfect sense. It seems like the first step is for FT2 to agree that this would convince him (or to say what further steps it would need) or for Poetlister to agree in principle to do it. 87.254.71.190 (talk) 08:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- If it is not sockpuppetry, it is still an extremely unlikely set of events which strongly suggests meatpuppetry and admin tool abuse. The evidence still indicates that everyone involved in this funny business should have been blocked for violating WP:SOCK.
- That said, it would be useful for Poetlister and any other real and distinct people involved in this funny business to meet with respected Wikipedians in a face to face scenario - that will result in more clarity in exactly what funny business occurred at the time. Until that happens, I think we should assume that Poetlister was a separate person, in spite of the fact that this assumption doesnt correlate with the evidence, and that she has since gone a long way to win back the respect of the community. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding was that Poetlister is a fairly private person and does not wish to meet other Wikipedians, though I may be mistaken. If I am mistaken, she would be very welcome at a London meetup which is happening this Sunday - Wikipedia:Meetup/London 9 - with or without other people who may shed light on the whole affair. WjB scribe 11:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you disregard sockpuppetry then it seems that people who had over the course of a couple of years made genuine and useful contributions to content were permanently banned because a minority of their edits were made on the same side of discussions as their friends. That doesn't add up. Any admin tool abuse would be limited to the one who was an admin. I really think meatpuppetry is a red herring here - the case relies on sockpuppetry. 87.254.71.190 (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Quick answers to some of the above:
- We consider all eleven accounts as a sock-farm. In cases where a sock-master will be allowed to continue editing, the norm is to block all but one of the identified accounts. The sock-master is allowed to edit under the one account "Poetlister", and the other accounts remain blocked. So in answer to Random832's first question, the evidence of common behavior, concealment, and a range of editing abuses, taken together with timing and checkuser information, makes an extremely strong case that these were intended and used as an abusive sock-ring at the time.
- We tend to trust hard evidence of behavior rather than vague "style of speech". Writing in multiple styles of speech is easy - hard evidence of mannerisms and IP sharing and common activity is more likely to be telling.
- In answer to Shoemaker's question, the behaviors to watch for are documented above.
- Would a live meet-up help? Unlikely. Rustling up a few friends or housemates to pretend being other accounts isn't hard. That's one reason we don't rely on that test generally.
- Random asks how many of the stacked items had 3 or more socks on them. RFA's with 3 or more socks included: Fan-1967 (3 socks oppose), FT2 (6 socks oppose), Georgewilliamherbert 2 (2 socks support, 1 neutral), Jreferee (6 socks oppose), Marskell (3 socks oppose), Maxamegalon2000 (3 socks support), Michaelas10 (3 socks oppose), Moralis (3 socks oppose), Moreschi (3 socks oppose), ProveIt (3 socks oppose), ... I gave up counting after the first while. It's a similar story on xFDs. Here's the first few entries on the stacked xFD's table (Worth noting - this table is all common edits, not selective):
- Quick answers to some of the above:
- Any competent sockmaster throws in a few contrary !votes. That's why experienced sock-checkers look at the pattern overall. The pattern overall is, when you strip away the surface, eleven accounts acted almost identically and formed an abuse ring. They also shared IPs. They later all moved to tor (on questionable reasons) and then denied using the same computers, but were in fact detected to have very likely been using the same PCs again, 2 years on. They claimed to be exceptionally close friends but the actual use of the wiki accounts when you look at their effect, was to stack votes, and (for runcorn) to be created 9 hours after the Poetlister block, and to act as an unconnected account, gain RFA, and abuse admin tools for each of the other accounts' benefit. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC) (comment re-signed, got friends staying the week who were logged in. Sorry for the confusion)
- Re "Rustling up a few friends or housemates to pretend being other accounts isn't hard.", I take it the idea is that a friend comes up to you and says "there's this web site I've been trolling and pretending to be several people on and I got banned from it in May last year... uh yeah, it's been going on a while... and I sort of sent them pictures of you as being one of the people who did stuff they got banned for... anyway, I want you to come with me and meet a guy from the website and tell him you're that person. Oh sometimes I send emails from the person you're pretending to be, asking to be unblocked so if you could remember at least your email address and the general writing style... oh 'unblocked', yes that means 'let back on the website', I'll give you a list of jargon they use like that so you'll be convincing, if you get stuck then keep saying 'AGF'... and here's a list of your interests for the stuff you wrote about and the people you know on the site oh and some offline history I made up about us and some other friends too, you'll need to recognise their pictures and how we all know each other... I almost forgot there's actually more than one web site - you'd better be familiar with your recent contributions to them. Sometimes I've posted both sides of conversations and disagreements between us and others to keep the characters convincing, best if you read them too. Yeah there is a lot to read, I've been doing this multi-account thing for about 3 years...". Is that really a scenario you take seriously? 87.254.71.190 (talk) 12:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Amen to the anon. If "edit a lot of the same articles, generally agree on XfD and all geolocate to the same town" is really a criteria, you could just as well say that User:BrownHairedGirl, User:Vintagekits and myself are all the same person. — iride scent 12:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- What part of "multiple shared IPs" and "near simultaneous use of the same proxies" did you miss in the above statement. (I have experience as checkuser of finding "anonymous" proxies that actually convey quite a lot of information about their users--they make my day.) Funny thing, I thought it was Arbcom that was refusing to budge from a fixed position in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. Thatcher 12:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly think that the sockpuppetry cliam could be true. However, the fact that the idea of a meetup was dismissed on the grounds that the person involved could explain to a friend that they've been posting under multiple accounts for THREE YEARS for no reason that I can imagine could be convincingly put into words, continuing the deception for a year after having been banned from the website, have implicated the friend by sending in pictures of them and now want the friend to accompany them to meet some stranger from the website... Thatcher, do you take that scenario seriously? 87.254.71.190 (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Some of the 'bit player' accounts are actually very likely to be sockpuppets - Not many people are saying there's actually eleven (or however many) different people. Can you write up a list of exactly what accounts used open proxies at what times? Because if it was just (say) R613vlu and Simul8 using proxies, that really doesn't prove anything at all about Taxwoman and Poetlister. --Random832 (contribs) 12:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- From what I can see in the checkuser log (not the actual data, mind you) it is apparent that either Taxwoman or Poetlister or both were using tor at the time they were checkusered in May 2007, and the IPs are the same ones that Runcorn had previously downgraded from hard blocked to soft blocked. Also note that I have seen tor nodes that were not truly anonymous and passed on certain identifying information. Thatcher 13:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why not the actual data? Do you not have the actual data? --Random832 (contribs) 16:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thatcher was not one of the CUs that did a check while the data was current. There is no need to berate him over that. Dmcdevit·t 21:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Whoa, I wasn't berating anyone - I was just confused because I had thought that all the data in question was shared between all the checkusers (or at least all the ones who want to shoot their mouths off about this), and am only just now finding out this is not the case. Don't the checkusers have a mailing list? --Random832 (contribs) 01:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, but Thatcher was not even a checkuser back then, so would not have had access, nor would he necessarily have the IP information today, as it's not shared by default. Same applies to me - Alison ❤ 01:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there was a thorough re-investigation, and that this would naturally include seeking second opinions. --Random832 (contribs) 03:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, second, third, ... seventh opinion (not including non-CU arbitrators as well). We have more than seven CheckUsers, though, so I don't know what makes you think that the fact that two of the newest CUs aren't part of that group is surprising or means there wasn't a re-investigation. It's becoming obvious that you are trying to spin everything said about the issue into some evil scheme. You haven't offered anything compelling, and this whole discussion is becoming a distraction. Back to the encyclopedia for everyone here, I say. Dmcdevit·t 05:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Um. I've just been reading through the thread, and if anyone's comments so far have come across as over the top, it is your comment here, Dmcdevit. Random has been explaining what looks like a misunderstanding, and you are accusing him or her of 'spinning' things, which looks totally unwarranted from where I'm sitting. What I think is the major concern here is that with such a large sock-puppet ring (and I agree, there was at least some sockpuppetry going on here), it is possible that one or two genuine similar accounts operated by other people that appeared to look like socks or meatpuppets, were blocked along with the socks (I presume a full analysis looked at the whole contribution histories for all the accounts?) I also presume the checkusers are not saying that only one person could have been editing from the IP addresses found in the checkusers? There is always the possibility that in future someone will start, or restart, editing with an account from those IP addresses, and if that account ever ends up editing in the same areas and get checkusered, the person operating that account will be walking into a minefield of sock accusations. I wish checkusers and arbcom would consider the new accounts in future that might be started on those IP addresses. I realise that there may be too much of a taint around all this, but there should be the option for real people to have the possibility of e-mailing arbcom and saying "I edit from this area and I got caught up in this. I'm not interested in returning to my old account, but I do want to make a fresh start with a new account, but want to tell you the account name in case there are problems in the future." Carcharoth (talk) 06:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, second, third, ... seventh opinion (not including non-CU arbitrators as well). We have more than seven CheckUsers, though, so I don't know what makes you think that the fact that two of the newest CUs aren't part of that group is surprising or means there wasn't a re-investigation. It's becoming obvious that you are trying to spin everything said about the issue into some evil scheme. You haven't offered anything compelling, and this whole discussion is becoming a distraction. Back to the encyclopedia for everyone here, I say. Dmcdevit·t 05:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there was a thorough re-investigation, and that this would naturally include seeking second opinions. --Random832 (contribs) 03:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, but Thatcher was not even a checkuser back then, so would not have had access, nor would he necessarily have the IP information today, as it's not shared by default. Same applies to me - Alison ❤ 01:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Whoa, I wasn't berating anyone - I was just confused because I had thought that all the data in question was shared between all the checkusers (or at least all the ones who want to shoot their mouths off about this), and am only just now finding out this is not the case. Don't the checkusers have a mailing list? --Random832 (contribs) 01:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thatcher was not one of the CUs that did a check while the data was current. There is no need to berate him over that. Dmcdevit·t 21:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why not the actual data? Do you not have the actual data? --Random832 (contribs) 16:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- From what I can see in the checkuser log (not the actual data, mind you) it is apparent that either Taxwoman or Poetlister or both were using tor at the time they were checkusered in May 2007, and the IPs are the same ones that Runcorn had previously downgraded from hard blocked to soft blocked. Also note that I have seen tor nodes that were not truly anonymous and passed on certain identifying information. Thatcher 13:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- What part of "multiple shared IPs" and "near simultaneous use of the same proxies" did you miss in the above statement. (I have experience as checkuser of finding "anonymous" proxies that actually convey quite a lot of information about their users--they make my day.) Funny thing, I thought it was Arbcom that was refusing to budge from a fixed position in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. Thatcher 12:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Amen to the anon. If "edit a lot of the same articles, generally agree on XfD and all geolocate to the same town" is really a criteria, you could just as well say that User:BrownHairedGirl, User:Vintagekits and myself are all the same person. — iride scent 12:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- FT2 (6 [accounts] oppose) - when were you going to tell us about your massive conflict of interest? --Random832 (contribs) 12:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- :That seems a bit of an odd question given that it is FT2 you are quoting... WjB scribe 13:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- ::Yes, he did say it - however, he kind of slipped it in there in the middle of a long diatribe as though he was expecting it not to be noticed. I don't think he should be the one presenting these explanations at all, really - Not because I think he would deliberately misrepresent things, but rather because he's so close to the situation that he may be biased in how he looks at things without even being aware of it. --Random832 (contribs) 13:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- :::You're asking for very specific information, some of which I am hesitant to talk about due to privacy issues, especially recalling some CharlotteWebb arbitration with had to do with Tor as well (though that is less of a concern now, as the Tor seems public knowledge; I forget how that happened or if it was in the original statement); some of which I am hesitant to talk about because of WP:BEANS and educating someone who was a smart sockpuppeteer to begin with, and some of which I am hesitant to talk about, because this has already been reviewed ad nauseam and your attitude shows that you have already made up your mind, regardless of the evidence. It would be nice if you recognized the sensitivity with which some people have tried to approach the issue, and the reason for the reluctance to share everything. Instead, the manner of your dogged pursuit of this matter, peppering it with accusations of bias or worse, has been unhelpful. Do you really think that more than half a dozen CheckUsers and all of ArbCom are biased or going on bad evidence? Do you think that by our posting only that information that can be made public for you, you'll notice something we all missed, or uncover the evil conspiracy behind it all? Dmcdevit·t 22:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- ::::I haven't seen "half a dozen CheckUsers" in this discussion, I've seen three (FT2 included), only two of whom (you and FT2) that have (I assume) seen the evidence. --Random832 (contribs) 13:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I keep seeing "shared IPs" but also mention of open proxies and TOR proxies. Could one of the Checkusers clarify for us: were any of the shared IPs (for Poetlister specifically) not from an open or TOR proxy? --InkSplotch (talk) 15:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Common non-TOR IPs in 2005 and common TOR IPs in 2007 (which Runcorn had helpfully softened the blocks on). Thatcher 15:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Were there more tor IPs in common vs not than would be expected for two unrelated tor users? And hardblocking vs softblocking for tor nodes is something that many people have differences of opinion on - more so before the compromise solution of ipblock exempt was thought of - so unblocking/softening blocks on tor ips does not in itself mean Runcorn was personally using tor with sockpuppets. --Random832 (contribs) 18:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- As to your first question, I have never analyzed the matter with regard to other tor users, so I couldn't say. I note again that I have seen tor servers that, intentionally or inadvertently, passed on identifying information, and note that FT2 stated above that this was an ineffective attempt to use anonymizing proxies. Thatcher 18:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. Of course there was more commonality than one would expect, since this is a major piece of the evidence. But it's not just commonalit; that's a simplistic way of looking at it. Different users do not share Tor nodes at the same time. However, edits from these accounts were overlapping on the same nodes (A edits for a period of time, then B, then A again, etc.), indicating that it was the same person simply switching accounts. For example, there was one IP where Poetlister, R613vlu, Brownlee, and Londoneye edited from, in overlapping times; Taxwoman, Poetlister, and Brownlee shared another IP, Poetlister and Newport another; and so on, repeatedly, and to such a degree that mere chance is not likely at all. Recall, Poetlister's explanation for this was that her frail grandmother always used Tor on her computer, which Poetlister used sometimes too (some part of that claim must be false, since all of Poetlister's edits were from Tor).
They all shared the same rare (yes, rare) user agent. The accounts that slipped up and edited with Tor turned off some of the time had IPs that matched Runcorn conclusively, as well as overlapping, and matching therefore, with Poetlister. The same rare user agent was shared by Runcorn on non-Tor IPs as well as all the named socks, who was obviously supposed to appear unconnected to the rest, but for the slip-ups, as he never used Tor. The Runcorn account was used to unblock Tor nodes that were being used by the other accounts, both ones where Newport appears, and ones where Poetlister and Taxwoman, the supposedly different people, appear without the other socks. After all that, now factor in the behavioral evidence. This is not intended to be the definitive posting of all evidence, so that you can try to pick it apart, but rather, I am trying to show that there was a strong preponderance of evidence and that ArbCom made a thoughtful, informed decision based on that, which is quite different from a lot of the ill-informed accusations being thrown about. Dmcdevit·t 22:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Were there more tor IPs in common vs not than would be expected for two unrelated tor users? And hardblocking vs softblocking for tor nodes is something that many people have differences of opinion on - more so before the compromise solution of ipblock exempt was thought of - so unblocking/softening blocks on tor ips does not in itself mean Runcorn was personally using tor with sockpuppets. --Random832 (contribs) 18:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
FT2 - point blank question; what would it take for you to be convinced that at least two of the accounts are separate people from each other? If there is nothing then the idea that they are all the same person is an unfalsifiable proposition and therefore should be ignored. --Random832 (contribs) 19:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ooooh, can we run that pretty graph against ArbCom members and their voting patterns regarding ArbCom cases? What? You mean you discuss things off-Wiki and see if you can't "reach a consensus"? How very dare you... wait, some of them votes don't agree... oh, lookee, FT2 says "...Any competent sockmaster throws in a few contrary !votes." ZOMG!! Ban the ArbCom!!! Like I said, just a little white lie and there would never had been all this fuss. (Yeah, I know I also said I was bowing out... but then I aint running for ArbCom.)LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
See, ladies and gentlemen? This is the perfect example of someone being given a second chance on Wikipedia. I fully endorse this unblock, and believe that this user should be welcomed back and become an accepted member of this community once more. :) Valtoras (talk) 06:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Question on Tor
Thatcher - How could a tor exit node leak identifying information even if it wanted to? Tor uses onion routing, so the only information it would have would be from the previous node in the chain. So, either it's a systemic problem (all nodes in a significant percentage of possible chains being compromised means a VAST majority of all nodes in the network are compromised) and therefore Tor is actually 100% worthless, or what you're seeing is actually the IP of another tor node, rather than of the actual user, or the information being "leaked" is actually a user agent (which unless it's a REALLY OBSCURE browser, doesn't prove nearly as much as you're implying it does) --Random832 (contribs) 16:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- And even if a node were compromised, how would it pass on the IP in a way that would allow checkuser to see it? The only information recorded in checkuser is user-agent and X-forwarded-for - Since Tor doesn't work at the HTTP connection level, user-agent would always be passed but proves little, X-forwarded-for would never be inserted. --Random832 (contribs) 16:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:BEANS, my good fellow. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:BEANS doesn't apply to calling someone out on exaggerating the level of "proof" they have. There is no way a "tor server" can leak IP addresses, period. --Random832 (contribs) 17:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- I may have been mistaken on tor, certainly I have seen non-tor proxies that are "leaky." By the way, I went over the checkuser log, and this may interest you. At the time of the second block (May 2007), 5 different checkusers ran 108 separate checks, on 7 named users and 27 separate IP addresses. (The claim that only Newport and Runcorn were checked in 2007 is bunk, by the way.) Of those 27 IP addresses, 9 were proxies (6 tor and 3 other) and of those 9, Runcorn was involved in unblocking 6 of them, 2 were never blocked until after May 2007, and one had been previously softblocked by another admin. Thatcher 18:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:BEANS doesn't apply to calling someone out on exaggerating the level of "proof" they have. There is no way a "tor server" can leak IP addresses, period. --Random832 (contribs) 17:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:BEANS, my good fellow. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Can I state again that it is misleading to characterize any soft-blocking or un-blocking as a one-man crusade by Runcorn as some people seem to want to think - there's been a lot of controversy on block type and duration for open proxies, up until very recently. --Random832 (contribs) 03:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- OK, following on from my comment above, I hadn't read the whole thread. I see that Random has been questioning a bit down here as well, so Dmcdevit, I apologise for my comment above. Still, the "unfalsifiable" bit above is a good point. We never want to get to a stage where accusations can't be disproven. The inherent unspoken fear is that one day any one of us could face such accusations that are difficult to disprove (it is not unknown for people to try and impersonate other users). There always needs to be a fallback option, whether it be a committed identity (can anyone provide a link to this) or another indisputable way for the people operating two accounts accused of sockpuppetry, with the accusations backed up by borderline checkuser data (and yes, the value of checkuser data can vary depending on the context) to prove that they are two different people, and to be advised on how to avoid meatpuppetry accusations even if they edit in the same areas (which any two people should be free to do if there is no conflict of interest or undeclared off-wiki interaction). It sometimes seems the best way to avoid such things is to never let anyone else edit through your IP, but this is not always practical. It seems it would be good advice for all editors to know whether they are editing from static IPs or not, and to note the times when they edited from other IPs, and to state if they are aware that other people are editing from their IP or IP range (while not having to reveal any more than this), just in case. I've occassionally edited from other IPs, and I also believe the main ones have slowly changed over time due to IP reassigment other than dynamic IPs stuff, but the stuff about IP ranges being "geographically close" always concerns me. It might help if the checkusers confirmed that they do discuss and check each other's actions on a regular and random basis, just to make sure individual checkusers don't slip into the habit of making errors. In particular, are new checkusers given training? Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly the reality is that difficult cases of WP:SOCK accusations/violations are almost impossible to disprove without the assistance of a time machine. e.g. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ehud Lesar took almost 2 months. At the end of the day, admins, CU and arbcom need to make decisions based on what information they have. I am surprised that people are trying to find malice or incompetence in the CU and arbcom simply because a person who, previously banned from the community, has been welcomed back in by arbcom. Admins do this all the time; it doesnt mean that the admin is wrong or incompetent. Those observing these tough decisions need to AGF that the decision was made for the benefit of the project, at that time.
- This is an extreme case, and all the people with access to the privileged information are saying that the evidence is insurmountable, with a round of blocks being the only sane way to deal with it at the time - but there is a fallback option even for extreme cases like this, and Poetlister has taken that route. She bit the bullet and decided to work productively on other projects to prove that she is worth a second chance. At the end of the day it doesnt really matter how she ended up so closely aligned with this sock ring. She has put things right by demonstrating that she is of a better ilk. I hope that any Wikipedians who find themselves in such a rare predicament follow her example when other avenues of appeal are exhausted. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- No, that's _not_ a suitable fallback, because it does not allow Londoneye, if she is in fact a different person, to edit. It does not allow Taxwoman, if she is in fact a different person, to edit. It's only a "suitable fallback" if they really are all sockpuppets, which really isn't much of a fallback at all. --Random832 (contribs) 13:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I dont follow - I have just explained how this fallback has worked successfully for one account. If those other accounts are also separate individuals, they can also join other projects, edit consistently for a long duration without using open proxies, or at least not use the same open proxy. Checkusers can then share information to confirm that they are all reasonably likely to be acting as separate individuals now. "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence". John Vandenberg (chat) 02:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- No, that's _not_ a suitable fallback, because it does not allow Londoneye, if she is in fact a different person, to edit. It does not allow Taxwoman, if she is in fact a different person, to edit. It's only a "suitable fallback" if they really are all sockpuppets, which really isn't much of a fallback at all. --Random832 (contribs) 13:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- OK, following on from my comment above, I hadn't read the whole thread. I see that Random has been questioning a bit down here as well, so Dmcdevit, I apologise for my comment above. Still, the "unfalsifiable" bit above is a good point. We never want to get to a stage where accusations can't be disproven. The inherent unspoken fear is that one day any one of us could face such accusations that are difficult to disprove (it is not unknown for people to try and impersonate other users). There always needs to be a fallback option, whether it be a committed identity (can anyone provide a link to this) or another indisputable way for the people operating two accounts accused of sockpuppetry, with the accusations backed up by borderline checkuser data (and yes, the value of checkuser data can vary depending on the context) to prove that they are two different people, and to be advised on how to avoid meatpuppetry accusations even if they edit in the same areas (which any two people should be free to do if there is no conflict of interest or undeclared off-wiki interaction). It sometimes seems the best way to avoid such things is to never let anyone else edit through your IP, but this is not always practical. It seems it would be good advice for all editors to know whether they are editing from static IPs or not, and to note the times when they edited from other IPs, and to state if they are aware that other people are editing from their IP or IP range (while not having to reveal any more than this), just in case. I've occassionally edited from other IPs, and I also believe the main ones have slowly changed over time due to IP reassigment other than dynamic IPs stuff, but the stuff about IP ranges being "geographically close" always concerns me. It might help if the checkusers confirmed that they do discuss and check each other's actions on a regular and random basis, just to make sure individual checkusers don't slip into the habit of making errors. In particular, are new checkusers given training? Carcharoth (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- The pertinent evidence is that Runcorn specifically unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes used by his sockpuppets. This is false. The evidence in question, rather, is that the accounts accused of being his sockpuppets used the Tor nodes unblocked and soft-blocked by him. "Runcorn specifically unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes used by his sockpuppets" is actually your characterization (not an unreasonable characterization, to be sure, but all the same) of the evidence, rather than being the evidence itself. The context of the numerous disputes over how tor nodes should be blocked, settled only recently by the introduction of ipblock-exempt, serves to established that he might have had some other motive for unblocking them than his own alleged personal use of Tor. --Random832 (contribs) 13:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't really see how softblocking the OPs proves anything either way. Assuming for a moment that Poetlister isn't a sock of Runcorn, Runcorn and Poetlister were at the least Wiki-friends. I know this because back in 2006, I emailed Poetlister and Poetlister CCd Runcorn into the email discussion. It's entirely possible that Poetlister or one of the others complained to Runcorn that their op was blocked and he independently decided to abuse his tools and went and softened it for them. It's also possible that some of the language, user agent, the shared OPs and other similarities boil down to friendship. I mean, if I find a great new program, I tell my friends so they can try it, too. If I was using an OP and I had a friend who also wanted to use one, I would help them connect to mine. And friends often pick up each other's language. Same goes for the XfDs and RfAs - friends often discuss things like this off-site and it isn't out there to think they might have followed each other's edits. That said, I do believe that there were socks operating here and I believe that Runcorn was one of them, but I've never been overly convinced by the purported evidence linking Poetlister to the sock farm and I think it's very unfortunate she has had to wait this long for an unblock. But regardless of whether she was guilty or not, a second chance is a good thing and I thank the Arbitration Committee for taking this step. Sarah 00:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at individual pieces of evidence in isolation (and not even the really important ones, like direct IP matches) is deceptive. Runcorn might have unblocked the proxies as a friend, but it is not reasonable to suggest that he also shared exact, rare user agents, had an exact IP match with a sock, and began unblocking those proxies, etc., but was "just a friend." It's a bit nonsensical to begin making up a story for Poetlister that is directly contradicted by her own defense given in her appeal, which is considerably less convincing than the vague scenarios and possibilities being raised here — which seem more like attempts to defeat the evidence by outdebating it and planting a seed of uncertainty through all the same "what if"s that sockpuppeteers always give when they get caught; you could unblock nearly any sock if explanations could be that insubstantial. Dmcdevit·t 02:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm not trying to make up stories for Poetlister. I'm just expressing my own opinion that "Runcorn specifically unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes used by his sockpuppets" is not, in my view, the strong "evidence" it's being presented as. It isn't even really evidence - the evidence is Runcorn unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes, and the rest of it is opinion with "sockpuppets" easily interchangeable with "friends". I do agree that the pieces of evidence combined are more convincing than they are individually. As I said before, I believe there was socking going on here but I'm just not overly convinced that Poetlister was part of the sock-farm. But I also haven't been overly convinced by the explanations Poetlister has given publicly and privately and I have felt when talking with her in the past that she wasn't being completely honest or upfront. Since I don't find either side all that compelling and nearly a year has passed with her continuing her good work on other projects without any problems, I'm glad she's been unblocked. Sarah 02:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am glad she is unblocked too. Aside from all of this other distraction, the real message here should be that it is a success story. It is irrelevant whether she admits a true account of what happened or not. Her subsequent actions show that she deserves a second-chance, and that means that we should let her back in with dignity intact. She is free to continue to claim innocence; as long as she proves a net benefit for the encyclopedia, it's a good thing. What I am really frustrated about is that other people won't let her back with dignity intact (not referring to Sarah, or only this thread). Insisting on arguing a year-old case again in a show of anti-authority politicking sows doubt and undermines ArbCom, which is why I felt compelled to reply and talk about it, but I don't think we should be dwelling on this instead of welcoming Poetlister back, guilty or not, and I'd rather the thread ended here. Dmcdevit·t 04:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Understood. Thank you for explaining your views of the technical aspects of the case. Cheers, Sarah 06:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- So, according to Sarah, you can edit under the same IPs, use the same rare user agent, edit the same articles, vote on the same XfDs, and speak the same way, and still just be totally innocent really, really close friends. In that case, as somebody already mentioned here, we might as well just abolish the whole CheckUser system. It's flawed! I guess everybody ever blocked for sockpuppeteering should be immediately unblocked, since that is the most commonly used defense; and how can we possibly prove them wrong, guys?! Still, the prospect of Poetlister having one or more alter-ego accounts is hardly unfathomable, despite the denial of Random832, who, ironically, probably witnesses it happen daily on the WR forums. Nobody's infallible and everyone makes mistakes, even popular users. 203.144.160.245 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Er, ah no, that's not according to me at all. I've already said that I believe some socking was going on; that I'm not overly convinced by either side; and that the pieces of evidence combined are much more compelling than they are separately but no individual piece of evidence is overly compelling which is what was being presented above with regard to Runcorn soft blocking the Tor nodes. And thanks for the brainwave but we actually already know that checkuser is flawed, that's why we tell people it isn't magic pixy dust and that there are possible explanations for false positives. We've had false positives in the past so it really isn't that strange an idea to most of us. I can think of plenty of people off the top of my head who would look like socks of each other if checkusered but it's called being a spouse or a housemate. That's why we generally look for more evidence than just a matching IP. But anyway, I agree with Dmcdevit about this thread and I'm not going to continue posting here. Sarah 08:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- So, according to Sarah, you can edit under the same IPs, use the same rare user agent, edit the same articles, vote on the same XfDs, and speak the same way, and still just be totally innocent really, really close friends. In that case, as somebody already mentioned here, we might as well just abolish the whole CheckUser system. It's flawed! I guess everybody ever blocked for sockpuppeteering should be immediately unblocked, since that is the most commonly used defense; and how can we possibly prove them wrong, guys?! Still, the prospect of Poetlister having one or more alter-ego accounts is hardly unfathomable, despite the denial of Random832, who, ironically, probably witnesses it happen daily on the WR forums. Nobody's infallible and everyone makes mistakes, even popular users. 203.144.160.245 (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Understood. Thank you for explaining your views of the technical aspects of the case. Cheers, Sarah 06:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am glad she is unblocked too. Aside from all of this other distraction, the real message here should be that it is a success story. It is irrelevant whether she admits a true account of what happened or not. Her subsequent actions show that she deserves a second-chance, and that means that we should let her back in with dignity intact. She is free to continue to claim innocence; as long as she proves a net benefit for the encyclopedia, it's a good thing. What I am really frustrated about is that other people won't let her back with dignity intact (not referring to Sarah, or only this thread). Insisting on arguing a year-old case again in a show of anti-authority politicking sows doubt and undermines ArbCom, which is why I felt compelled to reply and talk about it, but I don't think we should be dwelling on this instead of welcoming Poetlister back, guilty or not, and I'd rather the thread ended here. Dmcdevit·t 04:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm not trying to make up stories for Poetlister. I'm just expressing my own opinion that "Runcorn specifically unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes used by his sockpuppets" is not, in my view, the strong "evidence" it's being presented as. It isn't even really evidence - the evidence is Runcorn unblocked and soft-blocked the Tor nodes, and the rest of it is opinion with "sockpuppets" easily interchangeable with "friends". I do agree that the pieces of evidence combined are more convincing than they are individually. As I said before, I believe there was socking going on here but I'm just not overly convinced that Poetlister was part of the sock-farm. But I also haven't been overly convinced by the explanations Poetlister has given publicly and privately and I have felt when talking with her in the past that she wasn't being completely honest or upfront. Since I don't find either side all that compelling and nearly a year has passed with her continuing her good work on other projects without any problems, I'm glad she's been unblocked. Sarah 02:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at individual pieces of evidence in isolation (and not even the really important ones, like direct IP matches) is deceptive. Runcorn might have unblocked the proxies as a friend, but it is not reasonable to suggest that he also shared exact, rare user agents, had an exact IP match with a sock, and began unblocking those proxies, etc., but was "just a friend." It's a bit nonsensical to begin making up a story for Poetlister that is directly contradicted by her own defense given in her appeal, which is considerably less convincing than the vague scenarios and possibilities being raised here — which seem more like attempts to defeat the evidence by outdebating it and planting a seed of uncertainty through all the same "what if"s that sockpuppeteers always give when they get caught; you could unblock nearly any sock if explanations could be that insubstantial. Dmcdevit·t 02:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't really see how softblocking the OPs proves anything either way. Assuming for a moment that Poetlister isn't a sock of Runcorn, Runcorn and Poetlister were at the least Wiki-friends. I know this because back in 2006, I emailed Poetlister and Poetlister CCd Runcorn into the email discussion. It's entirely possible that Poetlister or one of the others complained to Runcorn that their op was blocked and he independently decided to abuse his tools and went and softened it for them. It's also possible that some of the language, user agent, the shared OPs and other similarities boil down to friendship. I mean, if I find a great new program, I tell my friends so they can try it, too. If I was using an OP and I had a friend who also wanted to use one, I would help them connect to mine. And friends often pick up each other's language. Same goes for the XfDs and RfAs - friends often discuss things like this off-site and it isn't out there to think they might have followed each other's edits. That said, I do believe that there were socks operating here and I believe that Runcorn was one of them, but I've never been overly convinced by the purported evidence linking Poetlister to the sock farm and I think it's very unfortunate she has had to wait this long for an unblock. But regardless of whether she was guilty or not, a second chance is a good thing and I thank the Arbitration Committee for taking this step. Sarah 00:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Closing comments from Shalom
I wish to thank FT2 for providing a detailed explanation of his thought process and evidence. I feel strongly that, given the age of the accounts in question as of May 30, 2007, the Committee should have provided a public explanation at that time. I am certain that, although it would have increased the immediate drama, it would have saved a lot of time in the 11 months since then. I understand from FT2's closing words that he and the Committee have learned a valuable lesson to disclose evidence in complicated cases.
In my correspondence with the Committee to request Poetlister's unblock, I argued strongly that, even if Poetlister was guilty of everything she is accused of, she should be allowed back because almost a year has passed, and ArbCom generally issues bans of "only" a year. I thank the Committee for accepting this argument. I am deeply bothered by Seraphimblade's statement above that he would not have allowed Poetlister to return without some admission or explanation. If, after literally months of pressure and persuasion, you cannot push Poetlister to admit to any wrongdoing, the proper thing to do is step back from the conflict and ask yourself, "What is best for the Wikipedia community?" Surely nothing is gained by locking a supremely capable editor out of Wikipedia just because you cannot win an argument against her. Seraphimblade probably doesn't know this, but I promised Poetlister and the Committee that I would return to editing under my username only after they unblocked Poetlister. I kept my word. If Poetlister were still blocked, I would not be making this post right now. My conviction was that, no matter what happened last year and before, it is now time to make peace.
I asked the Committee to publish a finding that a "reasonable doubt" exists regarding the allegations against Runcorn/Poetlister. They declined for reasons I now understand. By stating in my userspace that Poetlister is innocent, I established that a reasonable doubt does exist, no matter how strong the checkuser and behavioral evidence may be. I continue to believe that Poetlister did not use sockpuppets. You may consider me delusional if you wish, but that is what I believe. I have the right to believe that. I also have the wisdom to know when to leave well enough alone.
What convinces me that these users are not all the same person is the "Offdays analysis" of which days they edited or did not edit. Assuming that all these users are the same person, the contribution log of that person is extremely bizarre. This person edited every single day from October 14, 2006, until he/she was blocked, and would almost certainly have continued to edit every single day for several more months. Maintaining this feverishly high level of activity for nine months or more, without taking any days off, is extremely difficult to do, especially if the person must juggle ten different identities simultaneously. Moreover, the number of offdays decreased as more accounts were created and actively edited. The sockmonster took ten consecutive days off between December 22, 2005 and January 2, 2006, which were Runcorn's first and second days of editing. The sockmonster took a total of ten days off in the 16 months from January 31, 2006 until it was blocked on May 30, 2007. No matter how much I ponder the vote-stacking and checkuser evidence, I just can't convince myself that the data are telling a coherent story. It doesn't make sense that one single person did this. There must be some other explanation. Some of the accounts must be different people, and I think Poetlister is one of those different people.
Let me answer Random832's question about falsifiability: how can Poetlister prove that she is not the sole operator of the Runcorn sock-farm? It's very simple. (I have suggested the following to her in a private email.) From public statements, we know her first name is Giselle [7] [8] (this is also how she signs her email messages). She says she was born on May 11, 1980.[9] [10] She uploaded photographs of herself in July 2005 (Image:Poetlister.JPG) and December 2007 (Image:Poetlister2.jpg). According to W.marsh in August 2007, she provided the Committee with other information to establish her real-world identity. W.marsh wrote: "a real name was given at one point, that connects to a very old webpage, that seems to provide the actual identity of whoever was behind all of this and tie the female accounts to each other... but Bulldog and I decided not to mention that name/page publicly for hopefully obvious reasons." [11] I don't know what he's talking about, but I assume the Committee knows the details.
Poetlister can convince the Committee that she is not the sole operator of the Runcorn sock-farm by providing a plausible alibi to show that her real-world identity did not have Internet access, and thus could not have edited Wikipedia, on any of the 513 days from April 11, 2005 to May 30, 2007 when any of the Runcorn socks edited but Poetlister did not edit. The Runcorn socks, taken as a group, edited on 723 of the 777 days in this interval, but Poetlister edited on only 213 of those days, including edits she made to Wikiquote, Wikisource and Meta. That leaves a window of 513 days for her to present an alibi to show that she was not editing Wikipedia on any of those days.
Experienced users who wish to receive a copy of my spreadsheet, where I have tabulated the relevant data, are invited to email me.
I am nearly certain that the Committee has not pursued this line of reasoning yet. It would not prove that Poetlister is completely innocent, but it would prove that she is not the sole operator of the Runcorn sock-farm.
I am not blind to the fact that, in addition to vote-stacking many XFDs and RFAs, the Runcorn sock-farm shared some common habits in their edit summaries, such as using "RV" (capitalized) to signal a revert, and repairing links of redirects to point to the target page with an edit summary of "Bypass redirect" or more rarely "Avoid redirect." Ultimately, I must concede that there is evidence on both sides of this argument, and I will never know the whole story. What I do know is that the "offdays analysis," among other evidence, strongly suggests that more than one person was involved. How many people? I don't know. But it was more than one.
FT2's explanation has restored my trust in the integrity of the Committee as an institution where justice prevails. Even though I disagree with his conclusion, I respect it, and I will limit my dissent to my userspace and to appropriate off-wiki web pages. I wish Poetlister success in reintegrating to the community. That, more than anything else, is the ultimate goal of our efforts on this case. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 17:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
JPG-GR (talk · contribs) is trying to "close" in an administrative style a request to move of a page which I had issued.
After User:Ludvikus had recently moved the article to a new title, I had issued a first request at 29 April 2008. It was accepted almost at the same day, and the article was moved back by an administrator to the old title. Now Ludvikus had the idea to move the article to a new, third title. That is why I filed a second request at 30 April 2008 to move the article back to the old title. I've explained on the article's talk page why this is the correct title. Only Ludvikus seems to oppose a move. However, now User:JPG-GR is removing my request from the WP:RM, (and at the same time the { {move-templates}} form the article's talk): [12] [13] [14]
JPG-GR explains to me that the case is closed, see their and my talk-page, although they are not an administrator. This behaviour of JPG-GR is disturbing. --Schwalker (talk) 07:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Five days have passed and there is no consensus for the move. User:Schwalker is merely taking out his/her frustration on me because he/she has found no support for his/her proposed move. JPG-GR (talk) 07:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- "There is no consensus" and if there is no consensus, then it must be achieved" JPG-GR (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've already found support by the editor who had moved the article back to its old title one week ago. The only editor who is opposing this consensus seems to be Ludvikus. Anyhow, WP:RM reads:
- This page has a backlog that requires the attention of one or more administrators. Please remove this notice when the backlog is cleared..
- So the next step after a request has reached the backlog would be that an administrator is looking at the case. --Schwalker (talk) 08:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hello. I've just been informed of this discussion here. I think it's about the battle of the t/T's - t vs. T, correct? All I can say at the moment is that I'm for the Big T. As to consesus, I'll report back on that in a moment, or soon. --Ludvikus (talk) 08:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- OK. I'm back. Both of you are wrong: in fact, the consensus was there, namely that Capital "T" is correct, and that the Article not be moved from where it is now. Here's my evidence for that Ludvikus (talk) 09:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC):
- I've already found support by the editor who had moved the article back to its old title one week ago. The only editor who is opposing this consensus seems to be Ludvikus. Anyhow, WP:RM reads:
- "There is no consensus" and if there is no consensus, then it must be achieved" JPG-GR (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- (cur) (last) 21:22, 30 April 2008 Schwalker (Talk | contribs) m (24,107 bytes) (→Publications by Marx related to the essay) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 20:30, 30 April 2008 Boodlesthecat (Talk | contribs) (24,104 bytes) (→Interpretations: clarify source author's voice) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 16:31, 30 April 2008 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) m (moved On the Jewish Question to On The Jewish Question over redirect: rv myself) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 16:29, 30 April 2008 Mikkalai (Talk | contribs) m (moved On The Jewish Question to On the Jewish Question over redirect: correct capitalization) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 14:47, 30 April 2008 Boodlesthecat (Talk | contribs) (24,021 bytes) (move minor info to proper section) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 14:45, 30 April 2008 Boodlesthecat (Talk | contribs) (23,977 bytes) (undo)
- (cur) (last) 13:49, 30 April 2008 Ludvikus (Talk | contribs) m (moved On the Jewish Question to On The Jewish Question: Formally the "T" is capitalized) (undo)
- Consensus is reached through discussion, not through an overview of a move war. This is why I asked Schwalker (talk · contribs) to create a new, proper request so that there would be a more centralized area for future discussion to see if consensus could be found. He refused to do so, declared there was no consensus on my own talk page, and then reported it here. *shrug* JPG-GR (talk) 16:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- OK. Thanks. My understanding is that the only editor who objects/objected to "T" instead of "t" is Schwalker (talk · contribs). I have no knowledge of any other who supported/supports his view. So my understand of the concensus was/is Keep "T". --Ludvikus (talk) 02:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ludvikus, I'm sure that you act in good faith and are not aware of how much time of other people you bind by your disturbing actions concerning this article. Nearly each of your suggestions for this article so far had to be reverted by others. We are here to write an encyclopedia, not to show our attention to you. So if you are not able to contribute in a constructive way, please try to work on something else. I believe that not more Wikipedians participate in the discussion about the title with a capital 'T', because they think this question is entirely silly. Another user has already once moved the article back to the old title at 13:08, 29 April 2008.
- JPG-GR, well, I've never moved the article so far, do you really think that it is necessary to remind me not to "move-war"? Instead, I've issued two proper request to move, the second request at 21:35, 30 April 2008. The discussion takes place at Talk:A_World_Without_Jews#Lower case 't', everyone interested is invited to participate in the discussion to reach a consensus.
- However, the problem is that you interfer and try to close my process, and remove my request from WP:RM, and remove my "move"-templates on the articles talk-page in an edit-war, and archive the discussion on the article's talk-page, to the effect that the process will not continue: no administrator will look at it, and move the article back to what most editors think is the correct title. Greetings to both of you, --Schwalker (talk) 07:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:RM is not a never-ending process. It is a five-day process. After five days being listed at WP:RM, the result of the discussion was no consensus. It is not my fault that only a limited number of editors are interested in this discussion. As I previously stated, the process doesn't go on and on and on until your side wins. After five days, there is no consensus, so there is no move. JPG-GR (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no rule like "After five days, there is no consensus, so there is no move". Instead it reads that if there is no consensus,
- "the administrator may choose to re-list the request to allow time for consensus to develop, or close it as "no consensus"."
Also please scroll up, I've already cited the WP:RM policy for the backlog above, thanks --Schwalker (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
(de-indent) As the greater issue at hand here is 75% due to the disorganization of Talk:On The Jewish Question and probably 15% due to the failure to properly request the move per the WP:RM procedure in the first place, I have re-proposed this move, on behalf of User:Schwalker. Please have any further discussion in favor or against the move there so that consensus can be reached, if possible. JPG-GR (talk) 23:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "failure to properly request the move per the WP:RM procedure"? The only failure I can see here is your interference in processes of other people. --Schwalker (talk) 06:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please look below on this Noticeboad" to the Section titled: Disruptive editing and page moves by User:Ludvikus. It relates to the alleged disruptivness of the same parties regarding related and similar issues. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I wish to add that I have respect for User:JPG-GR who I find is meticuous in following Wikipedia policies and procedures. I've learned things from him just with the last few days. He knows how to do things here at Wikipedia. On the other hand, I believe otherwise with respect to User:Schwalker who has unilaterally - without any consenses - Reverted my text from the talk page, calling it Deletion. I sincerely believe that what he's doing at this moment is disruptive to our whole Wikipedia community. Let me say something about myself to establish my veracity. I'm a respected editor at the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. How do I know that? Simply because when I add text there - it sticks. And you all know that that page attracts a lot of crackpots from all over the world. Nevertheless, the page has dedicated Wikipedian editors who constantly and vigilantly defend it against Vandalism. That all means that I'm a respected editor on that page - on Jewish matters I might add. I come here because of this editor who I believe - for reasons I do not understand - is WP:stocking against me. He is deliberately Deleting or Reverting matterial I put up. Please, lets put an end to all this nonsense. Lets settle and compromise. But for that we need cooperation among all of us. Can anyone advise as to how to put these silly disputes to rest? Chheers, and have a nice day. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Cult free world just came off of a two day block here for personal attacks and immediately launched into disruptive and tendentious editing again here.
No less than seven other editors have been working carefully to follow Wiki policies and build consensus and Cult free world continues to change the article without discussion, without consensus, to mirror the version that appears on his blog. This user has exhibited that he is incapable of (a) working with other editors to build consensus, (b) following Wikipedia policies, and/or (c) editing in a manner that does not promote his POV. (Please note this article is now in mainspace, not his userspace anymore, so is subject to all of the normal Wiki policies now, which he was able to bypass when it was in his userspace.)
There have been numerous complaints by many different editors on this user, he persists in disruptive, tendentious editing without any semblance of trying to work with other editors in a meaningful way, and he has failed to contribute meaningful to Wikipedia. Please, can it end? Renee (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was tempted to hit the "indef" button, but have blocked CFW for one month - I will reduce the length of the block if he pledges to edit in a constructive and collaborative manner. Neıl ☎ 14:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Good block, though I consider such a pledge from this user unlikely - but possible. Any objections to a resolved tag? UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- PLease can you provide diffs, if what Renee says is so I would think it would be a 3RR issue or something. CFW's entitled to his opinion of what the article should look like to be at his best, but he shouldn't be revert or edit warring, perhaps. However there are problems with some other editors on those articles perhaps being members of the group involved or similar ones, and having a WP:COI. If CFW was really that prone to this he wouldn't have survived this long on wiki.Merkin's mum 14:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC) diffs please Merkin's mum 14:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Merkins, the diff listed above is a pretty good indication of what CFW was doing. I'm a bit surprised CFW hasn't been blocked indef for making edits like that right after a block for the same reason. I'm trying to be fair here, but I believe the same edits will occur in a month given CFW's track record. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I'd like to see it discussed a tiny bit more before marked as resolved, because if CFW was that bad he wouldn't have survived this long. On articles about New Religious Movements it's sometimes hard to make sure they aren't owned by the groups involved. Are there any editors on the anti-cult side of the article who are also finding CFW's approach unwise or wrong? Merkin's mum 14:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, my thoughts on a resolved tag were quite premature - I thought it was more cut-and-dry than it apparently is. I still think a block is in order, and concur with the block issued in this instance. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- sorry-there were lots of edit conflicts there lol. The link was to the revision history. All it shows is another editor saying CFW's version is not "sane". That doesn't sound much like people trying to get on, to me. Merkin's mum 14:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've edited this article off and on. It is very sensitive terrain, and CFW has consistently exhibited all the tact of a bull in a china shop here, as can be seen with this latest set of edits. I concur with Renee that building consensus is impossible with this user. Several editors have tried and been accused of either being brainwashed or on the payroll of this group. As an aside - This behavior is suspiciously identical to that of User:Shashwat_Pandey who used to frequent the same sets of articles and was blocked indefinitely for sock puppetry.Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I'd like to see it discussed a tiny bit more before marked as resolved, because if CFW was that bad he wouldn't have survived this long. On articles about New Religious Movements it's sometimes hard to make sure they aren't owned by the groups involved. Are there any editors on the anti-cult side of the article who are also finding CFW's approach unwise or wrong? Merkin's mum 14:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Merkins, the diff listed above is a pretty good indication of what CFW was doing. I'm a bit surprised CFW hasn't been blocked indef for making edits like that right after a block for the same reason. I'm trying to be fair here, but I believe the same edits will occur in a month given CFW's track record. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Here are some difs from this page started May 1, [15], [16], [17], [18]. If you review the talk page here you'll see seven editors trying to work together, and then CFW posting original research, his interpretation of things, and ignoring other editors' attempts to get him to work together. He had been building this page on his user page and many of us (mistakenly) tried to work on that, only to find out that the rules for userpages were different (because he posted previously deleted content, I filed an MFD per admin advice here, and an admin reviewing a sanitized version kept it despite a 12 delete/7 keep vote (because it was userspace), and then CFW promptly reverted it to his OR, primary sourced version here. He posted an RFC for his userpage version of the article here and then ignored almost every editors responses. Every single editor who has worked on the previously deleted Sahaj Marg pages believe he is User:Shashwat pandey and User:Rushmi (see sock report here). The reason he looks "okay" in the beginning is because he had been booted off in two previous identities and he was attempting to come into the article via this third identity (again, review the sock evidence please).
- I have made many mistakes with respect to this user because I mistakenly believed that userspace was held to the same Wiki policies as mainspace. When I learned that it wasn't I began to ignore the user and his space until the article was posted in mainspace, where I began to work on it. I am a good faith contributer to Wiki and have worked on dozens of articles, including creating several myself. I don't think this user will change and urge an indefinite ban. Despite having multiple POVs on the Sahaj Marg talk page, we were making progress and it was relatively peaceful. User:Cult free world has demonstrated time and again, across three identities, that he is only on Wikipedia to promote original research and a POV. Please indefinitely ban him. Renee (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- p.s. The term I was looking for was sleeper sockpuppet (in answer to the question of how did he last so long). i.e., when a previously disgraced/blocked editor goes away and comes back working on other somewhat related articles, and then magically, out of the blue, decides to "create" an identical article out of 5x previously deleted material (and this one talked about it on his blog). If he goes away again I think we have to be very careful and watch for another sleep sockRenee (talk) 20:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have made many mistakes with respect to this user because I mistakenly believed that userspace was held to the same Wiki policies as mainspace. When I learned that it wasn't I began to ignore the user and his space until the article was posted in mainspace, where I began to work on it. I am a good faith contributer to Wiki and have worked on dozens of articles, including creating several myself. I don't think this user will change and urge an indefinite ban. Despite having multiple POVs on the Sahaj Marg talk page, we were making progress and it was relatively peaceful. User:Cult free world has demonstrated time and again, across three identities, that he is only on Wikipedia to promote original research and a POV. Please indefinitely ban him. Renee (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Is it too much to ask for secondary neutral sources as a Wiki Editor? My observation is that this user just ignores other editors. I also observed that this user incorrectly draws hasty conclusions on sub-judice matters. This user also tends to get personal with allegations which are unwarranted for in the Wiki world. With so much negativity, perhaps its wise not to have this user as well the article on the Wikipedia and bring an end to everything!! -- Mayawi (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- ← A good block, and one well deserved. He has been the issue of many threads at AN/ANI, and his unwillingness to cooperate and work with others in a constructive manner is determental to the project. His disruptions and trolling actions only leads me to believe that the user will not reform until faced with such sanctions that will severely limit his abilities to edit -- and an indef. block is certainly not out of the question if the behavior does not make a turnaround. seicer | talk | contribs 16:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- +1 for blocking, long as you like. This user is not here to improve the encyclopaedia, he's here to remodel it to support his external agenda. Consider my limited patience well and truly exhausted. Guy (Help!) 17:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- endorse the block. This editor has shown no desire to work collaboratively or to improve the encyclopedia in any way, beyond pushing his point of view and berating those that don't agree with him. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Consider this a non-admin endorsement of this block. CFW has shown that the previous block did not change his editing habits, and the project is better off not having an editor who choose to use his personal agenda as a NPOV. Wildthing61476 (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- This was lenient; an indefinite block would appear well and truly warranted here. MastCell Talk 17:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- :I was of the view everyone should get one last chance - previously he'd only had a 48 hour block for this sort of thing and a jump to indefinite would, perhaps, have been over-harsh. If he reverts to type when the block expires, then I'll be the first to press the indef button. Neıl ☎ 00:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong; I'm sure this block is preventing disruption. I just can't help but feel that there was a good contributor in there that we failed to reach. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 04:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- SheffieldSteel - It's never a happy moment when a volunteer editor gets booted out. I agree that CFW is diligent in his work. The issue wasn't his ability as a contributor - I would be the first to point to his intelligence and tenacity. The issue was, is, and I'm very sure will continue to be his attitude. This isn't editing - This is raw rage at work. What kind of person comes off a 2-day ban only to immediately repeat the offense? I've worked with this user for a while now (across 3 socks), and the sheer levels of toxicity he injects into the articles he touched has to be experienced to be believed. If you haven't seen it, good for you! I have, and I stopped editing in disgust a little while back. Took me very little time to dig up a few pearls to help you see what I'm talking about - [here], [here], [here], [here] or [here]. Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 01:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse - Thought about this and Utraexatzz and wildthing are right - He'll be back in a month and he'll go back to where he left off. He's been at it too long to change within a month and nothing he's said or done indicates he realizes he's doing anything wrong. Also, it's very odd that a page that had never been vandalized (even in all of its previous versions) is suddenly vandalized by an open proxy just yesterday...(see here). Coincidence? I don't think so! Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 19:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Look, why don't we try topic-banning the guy first? See if there's anything worth saving? --Relata refero (disp.) 05:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Good idea. Topic ban, rigidly enforced. If CFW violates the ban (which I have complete confidence he will), then he hasn't a leg to stand on. He'll still call us a bunch of cultist censors, though. Guy (Help!) 17:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse. Though I'm not sure if it will make a difference. Here is the user's response to his ban -- he doesn't understand there's a problem. Renee (talk) 14:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse This user had been a suspected sock of previous users (now perm blocked) who have repeatedly tried to publish strong POV info against this topic - Sahaj Marg, Shri Ram Chandra Mission, SRCM. Because of lack of firm evidence (old users) this sock report got closed just short of confirming this. Despite all that, I tried to work very patiently with CFW [19], here, here, only to still not get his cooperation. In light of the fact that since last sept. there have been several attempts to post such information which ended up in deletes after a long discussion [20], [21], [22] I would vote for a topic ban. Can someone tell how broad would the ban be? (New Religious Movements" and "Cults" or just Sahaj Marg/Shri Ram Chandra Mission/SRCM). Duty2love (talk) 16:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse I have tried to work with him now as two of the three different socks, and looked over his actions of the other sock. His behavior is the same each time. Nothing has changed, depsite having wikipedia policies explained litterally a hundred times to him, he just pushes on with his agenda. I don't see any change happening anytime soon. And of course, like the governer of California, he'll be back. Sethie (talk) 05:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Checkuser confirmed persistent sockmaster needs indef
MarkBA (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) was recently blocked for mass puppetry as established per checkuser(see list of previous puppets) and now it turns out that he continued where he left off the new sock is confirmed by checkuser [23] [24], now the new sock and the master account need blocking. The good faith of administrators was completely abused here. MarkBA has 4 blocks, but only one shows up in the block log of the main account and they treated him like a new user every time. See these talk pages for example [25] [26] [27] where he is constantly welcomed, invited to discussion, advised to create an account all the same steps taken over and over, with incredibly short blocks “not to bite” for example the 4th block is only for 3 hours [28] for “Disruptive editing: Multiple reverts with uncivil edit summaries”. The socks were generally used for mass incivility, personal attacks among other things like [29] often using edit summaries [30] [31] to abuse fellow editors. The latest sock 78.99.161.255 is no less disruptive with every single edit is a revert of a user. I think it’s safe to say that if all the edits were made with the main account it would be blocked already but by avoiding scrutiny and abusing good faith and being treated like a new user every time, the accounts got away with a slap on the wrist. The sockmaster account, MarkBA was already under restrictions per the Digwuren arbcom case [32]. Only the Checkuser confirmed socks are listed in the category there can be many more currently undetected. Admin action is needed against the main account so it can be properly tagged as sockmaster and the socks can be collected and their contributions can be followed from there. Hobartimus (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- One problem I see (and I know absolutely nothing about this situation) is that it looks like he is using rotating IP addresses. There is a strict policy against long blocks for IP addresses. If a checkuser has determined they are his, I would suggest a block to his main account for sockpuppetry. We have to do something to make him realize that that sort of conduct is not welcome here. Notified him of this thread in case he has something to say. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I am really surprised by this "report" because the diffs point to old edits and MarkBA has already been blocked for them. The sockpuppetry tag that Hobartimus is trying so hard to place on his user page was removed by an administrator for a good reason.[33] The situation is very complex and involves edit warring by a large number of editors, including MarkBA and Hobartiumus (who filed this report). The dispute resolution between all the involved editors is ongoing at User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment with the help of User:Elonka. I do not understand why Hobartimus filed this report because the sockpuppetry situation has already been discussed at that Elonka's page and administrative action has taken place. I can only guess that it has something to do with the fact that Elonka is away for few days for personal reasons. I urge Hobartiums to return to User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment because the discussion on this lengthy and complex edit war should be centralized. I would like also to encourage any administrator interested in this thread to read the linked page. It will give you a broader picture of what is going on. Tankred (talk) 04:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Some points:
- Elonka is expected to be off-wiki in the next couple of days and seems to have no problem with this discussion here
- this IP (confirmed by Checkuser only yesterday) has been used after MarkBA's block for abusive sockpuppetry expired on 27 April (so these are not old edits regarding the case)
- MarkBA is already under restrictions according to the Digwuren arbcom case and the edit summaries of the new revert-only IP have not been that civil
- I'm not "really surprised" by this report, but I wouldn't have posted here if the credibility of Hobartimus hadn't been attacked in an unjustified way
- Squash Racket (talk) 05:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing complex here. The latest socking was confirmed by checkuser Tatcher [34] the abusive sockmaster MarkBA (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) need blocking ASAP as confirmed by checkuser. The latest puppet last active a few days ago still remain unblocked untagged and the main account needs to be dealt with. The community should decide wheter checkuser confirmed repeat abusive sockpuppetry is something to endorse or reward or sanction. Another "slap on the wrist" type block could be taken as open encouragement of this type of abuse since getting CheckUser confirmed proof is not always an easy task even in this case there can be much more abuse and disruption, only unconfirmed by CheckUser. As per admin Ricky81682 commenting above, blocking dynamic IP-s is not an effective way to deal with this, I endorse an indefinite or substantial block of the main pupeteer account, MarkBA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Hobartimus (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
False accusations, and heated personal opinions do not count into debate, therefore this thread is about that. Look at yourself first and your actions before complaining, I am NOT a sockpuppeteer (no evidence whatsoever), that's a personal opinion of several editors. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 07:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately MarkBA lost his mind. The more unfortunate thing is that he (as you can see) made it in a "clever way" by "exporting" those blocks coming from edit wars and uncivility and personal attacks to his IPs, so his account remained "clear" of blocks. However his "checkuser" case connected those IPs together and to him, therefore Hobartimus is right, MarkBA was blocked way more times than his block log shows.
MarkBA played out his restrictions through IPs, as well as general policies, like WP:NPA and all the others. Also impersonated me through doing similar or same edits, continuing what I stopped: edit warring (two of those IPs listed as "socks"). The descending tensions between Slovak and Hungarian users delivered by the User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment was multiple times compromised by these IPs as you can see (for example resulting in this thread, and slightly growing tensions again).
Mark has a "problem" in general with the Hungarian editorial community what he had explained on his userpage in a big, red provocative banner[35]. It was removed by Elonka (talk · contribs) [36]. As you can see, Mark also claimed that he had "retired", while the "checkuser" confirmed that he had not. He replied within hours to his blocking notice, despite his last edit was two weeks ago. That misleading banner was later removed by himself.
My feeling is that MarkBA is not intrested in decreasing the tensions or reaching any consensus or whatever, but only in "killing them all" (Hungarian editors' accounts/edits) thing. Maybe this is because of his adolescence (he is allegedly 16 years old) or his political beliefs don't accept any discussion or compromise wih Hungarians, or something else, I do not know, and doesn't matter. Unfortunately his recent actions made me thinking that he wish to act only in a way wich can maintain the level of tensions between Slovak and Hungarian users, therefore he does not have a place amongst us at these times, only after the experiment had reached all its goals. Maybe a half/one year later. --Rembaoud (talk) 11:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's obvious YOU aren't interested in decreasing the tensions, dear Rembaoud... You were mixing politics, were edit-warring, and now it's ironic you want to exclude someone who didn't take part really much. False accusation no. 2 and don't speak about someone's personal data, OK? You should be silent if you don't know anything about me. Again, socks aren't mine at all; the IP range just happens to be in my area; I'm not responsible for the IPs. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 11:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
No, Mark, I quit edit warring when I learned that it is forbidden, while you are being here for years and still doing, from IPs, what you deny, despite the overwhelming evidence, starting from the "checkuser" and finishing at this page with this: [37], [38]. This U2 thing does not stand, sorry. :( --Rembaoud (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Administrators reviewing the case should be aware that apart from the conclusive checkuser evidence several administrators already reviewed some of the case when a previous block for abusive sockpuppetry was applied but MarkBA repeatedly blanked these discussions from his talk page in an attempt to hide the evidence. MarkBA moved most of his editing abuse, harassment, edit warring, personal attacks to the sockpuppets but returned "within hours" when the main account was blocked to ask for unblock [39]. See some of the old discussions here, [40] [41], and a consensus of several admins that MarkBA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was indeed the pupeteer for example [42] [43], the talk page even had to be protected by administrator Yamla a little later due to constant blanking by MarkBA [44]. In the face of overwhelming evidence these continued denials by MarkBA above for example can only be seen as a weak attempt to confuse administrators, hide past actions from scrutiny, so the next puppet can get the same "red carpet treatment" as the previous ones. Starting with level 1(!!) warnings [45] more warnings without action [46] invitations to discussion of the same user invited multiple times before [47] advice to create an account given to a long time abuser [48] and even when the block comes (4th block of the user, under restriction already), who already had an 1 week block before it's only for 3 hours [49], all the diffs come from the talk page of a single puppet confirmed by checkuser only later [50] as it takes time to get confirmation. Time of good faith users is wasted this way constantly with no progress other than warnings or miniblocks for a dynamic IP and no consequence to the main pupeteer account with all the blocks not following him and not showing up in his block log. If something is not done admins will have to start giving out level 1 warnings again, when dealing with a multiple times blocked, under restriction, checkuser confirmed abusive sockmaster, who has no intention of giving up socking, instead denies that the whole thing ever happened. The main account should be blocked and identified as a repeat confirmed sockmaster so future users and admins at least know what they are dealing with. Hobartimus (talk) 12:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Is this an editor forgetting to log in? SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes that was the latest puppet IP used by MarkBA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that was confirmed earlier by checkuser [51] and now confirmed by him as well writing from that IP in the name of MarkBA, demanding an apology for "false claims and lies" and stating that he has a right to blank his user page, referring to the above discussion about blankings done by user:MarkBA.
- A great finding SheffieldSteel, thank you. Hobartimus (talk) 15:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have checked contributions of that IP and I think they should be understood in their context: User:Nmate, who was under the same editing restrictions at that time, made some undiscussed controversial edits across a high number of articles. He was reverted by the IP that Hobartimus mentioned here. Nmate's edits were rejected by the community at User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment and the original version of these articles (effectively protected by the IP's activity) has been retained since then. Again, the case is slightly more complex than the short description presented here by Hobartimus. Most if not all users under editing restrictions in this case have broken their restrictions on few occasions, but the overall frequency of edit warring has significantly decreased. Indef. block of an editor who has made 7,500 edits (including a featured article, several good articles, and plenty of DYKs) and received three barnstars would be a harsh measure. I see the ongoing dispute resolution at User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment as a much more promising way to resolve a long conflict, of which this last incident was but one of many episodes. It may result in a topic ban or indef. blocks for several editors. But I would rather wait until the end of the dispute resolution process instead of banning selected editors while we are still discussing substantial content issues. Tankred (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly I'm surprised to see such a comment here I expected the next comment from you to be an apology for earlier trolling and making blatant false statement on AN/I. Not that long ago you made the false claim in this thread that this was an old case [52], and that " MarkBA has already been blocked for them", these should be redacted. It's intresting that in the face of overwhelming evidence of persistent longterm abuse, anyone would consider any action proposed here "harsh" but I guess a user with 4 blocks and 2 editing restrictions to their "credit", should be expected to oppose any and all admin action and never support a block or ban, no matter the extent evidence. The case needs more attention from admins experienced in dealing with sockpuppets, not multiple times blocked users with a long history of disruption. Hobartimus (talk) 00:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have checked contributions of that IP and I think they should be understood in their context: User:Nmate, who was under the same editing restrictions at that time, made some undiscussed controversial edits across a high number of articles. He was reverted by the IP that Hobartimus mentioned here. Nmate's edits were rejected by the community at User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment and the original version of these articles (effectively protected by the IP's activity) has been retained since then. Again, the case is slightly more complex than the short description presented here by Hobartimus. Most if not all users under editing restrictions in this case have broken their restrictions on few occasions, but the overall frequency of edit warring has significantly decreased. Indef. block of an editor who has made 7,500 edits (including a featured article, several good articles, and plenty of DYKs) and received three barnstars would be a harsh measure. I see the ongoing dispute resolution at User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment as a much more promising way to resolve a long conflict, of which this last incident was but one of many episodes. It may result in a topic ban or indef. blocks for several editors. But I would rather wait until the end of the dispute resolution process instead of banning selected editors while we are still discussing substantial content issues. Tankred (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Tankred, you and your buddies gave the barnstars to each other :) Should I give Hobartimus some barnstars now so his words will weight more? MarkBA's number of edits is why intresting (how can you check it)? If I edit 1000 I'll be "blockproof" for a day or what? :) 5k is a week 10k is a month, +100k is infinity? :)) or I get one credit for every 1000 edits, wich I can use for an edit war, or a personal attack or whatever to avoid the consequences? :)) I do not see, why are all these "arguments" are intresting or should be noted. Joe has red hair, don't block him? :) MarkBA's recent(?) history shows a sad tendency, wich has been crowned right here at THIS thread, by MarkBA himself:
denying any connections to these IPs [53], confirmed by checkuser, that those were used by him, then...khm :) [54], [55] he-he. No need for further discussion. Everything has been said, Tankred just tries to protect his mate in any possible way, wich is understandable, but unfortunately has nothing but weasel talk and irrelevant arguments in pocket. However Hobartimus has some real ones, listed and discussed above, wich I can just repeat. --Rembaoud (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Disruptive editing and page moves by User:Ludvikus
User:Ludvikus has moved Revisionist Zionism twice this week despite consensus on the Talk page to leave it as it is. Most recently, he moved it while discussion is active. In fact, he is the only editor who feels that the article should be renamed.
In general, User:Ludvikus has been engaged in disruptive editing. He has started several disambiguation pages that serve no clear purpose (e.g., Historical revisionism (disambiguation), Standard work). He has proposed mergers that make no sense and created articles about subjects that already have articles (e.g., Ninteenth Century (sic), Union of Zionist-Revisionists).
Can somebody please intervene with User:Ludvikus? Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 18:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- SHAME on users who have political usernames (another example: User:Flying tiger) going after voices of objectivity and reason. The thin, weak voice of NPOV will not be drowned by a cacophony of politically-motivated aggression. -WikiSkeptic (talk) 18:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- For reasons that I do not quite understand the complainent has been stalking me. Wherever I go to edit he/she sems to appear and Rvt my work. The article he's complaining about is Revisionist Zionism which I believe should more properly be labeled Zionist revisionist movement. He seems to be working with one other editor, whose name is very difficult for me to remember. I welcome any independent, cool-headed voice that can help resolve the dispute. Thanx. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ludvikus's nonstop disruptions, which indicate little understanding of the subjects he disrupts (one of many examples) has indeed required constant monitoring. It would be a relief not to have to monitor him. Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- No idea about Malik Shabazz (isn't it likely to just be his name?), but which of the meanings of "Flying Tiger" is politically motivated? (Unless my memory is wildly wrong, Flying Tiger was also a Spiderman supervillain.) — iridescent 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- My User name (and certainly Flying Tiger's) is a red herring. The issue at hand is Ludvikus' behavior, which is disruptive. Please take a look at Talk:Revisionist Zionism, Talk:Historical revisionism (negationism), and Talk:On The Jewish Question, where I have hidden many of his disruptive comments to bring some semblance of order to the pages. On many of the Talk pages, he discusses other unrelated pages. Please, can somebody try to help? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 19:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I'm prepared to implement a move probation. User is restricted to use the WP:RM procedure (to be closed by an admin), even for noncontroversial moves for the next month. RfC is probably the next logical step if issues continue beyond that. El_C 19:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- While we're here, might I also call attention to User:Ludvikus#Certain engaging editors? I'm reading that as this user calling three other users Holocaust Deniers, which seems to run afoul of WP:NPA. Tarc (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- You got that wrong. We are all writing about Historical Revisionism, which scholars say that that's the same as Holocaust denial. Please don't be reckless with your accusations. --Ludvikus (talk) 20:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's best not to list other users in a way that could be inferred as negative. I doubt those users wish to be listed in such a way. El_C 20:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've modified that. The purpose was mere to be able to click on their difficult long name. That's all. Also, I have not heard an objection from them. In fact, you and I have been working together on articles related to Marxism. Would you mind it if I did the same with your name? If so, I'll not do so. Please let me know. Furthermore, are you now addressing me as an adminstrator? --Ludvikus (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am addressing you as an administrator. I would rather not be listed. I, actually, intervened as an admin to that article, because you made a questionable, undiscussed move to it that needed to be reversed. El_C 21:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm not sure I understand the question: maybe they can answer it...? El_C 21:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I want to end all issues between all the parties. Look above. There are many accusations against me. I want to solve them all now. Put an end to it and have peace. So I'm asking you to deal with all the issues raised above. Not just the (1) "move" issue and (2) the names on my "user page." --Ludvikus (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what else you expect me to do. It's up to all of you to follow the steps for dispute resolution. El_C 21:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't you tell me what issues remain to be taken to "dispute resolution". You cannot expect me to write my own indictment, do you. Wikipedia should not be Stalinist Russia. Since your an adminstrator who has taken action against me, inform me now what the rest of the complaints against me are outstanding, which you say you cannot resolve, but must be taken to "dispute resolution." --Ludvikus (talk) 21:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what those issues are. I suggest you tone down the polemics and talk to the people whom you are having problems with. El_C 21:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
==RfD nomination of [[:Union of Zionist -Revisionists]]=== I have nominated Union of Zionist -Revisionists (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
That's the stub I created, and while I'm here responding to his complaint, he's not willing to cooperate with me at all but persists in provocation. What he has done is called in Wikipedia "stalking" I believe. He goes around looking for anything I do so that he could have it "deleted". I want that problem ended. Can you help. As you can see I'm extremely cooperative, while Shabazz continues to provoke. --Ludvikus (talk) 22:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- What I've nominated for discussion is the article (now a redirect) with the mis-typed name (note the space before the hyphen) that you started, then moved to Union of Zionist-Revisionists. I don't think any readers will mistype the name of the organization, so I proposed deleting the mis-named redirect. Please click on the link to the RfD discussion page before you jump to any conclusions. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 22:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Admin, show mercy and close this case
The issue has been addressed by move probation. Can a merciful admin please put this case out of its misery and close it? thanks. Boodlesthecat Meow? 22:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. There is still my complaint outstanding of being WP:Stalking by User:Malik:Shabazz. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please read WP:STALK:
- [P]roper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles (in fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam).
- When I noticed that you were making disruptive edits on a few articles, I looked to see whether you were making similarly disruptive edits on other articles. That's perfectly acceptable. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. And I discovered more disruptions on other articles. Boodlesthecat Meow? 02:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please read WP:STALK:
Talk:On The Jewish Question
- Disruption is taking place at the moment which is caused by another editor - you guy know who he is - but you do nothing to stop it. I'll be back in a moment with the Diffs. --Ludvikus (talk) 14:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- First look here: [56] --Ludvikus (talk) 14:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is the problem given in the block below - I'll get the diff momentarily(--Ludvikus (talk) 14:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)):
deleted commercial advertisment, --User:Schwalker (talk) 11:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's a Reverion, not a Deletion. Here's the Diff which shows (on the bottom of the page) the text he's removed by Reverting because he (User:Schwalker) alleges is an advertisement (Ludvikus (talk) 15:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)): [57]
- Furthermore, please look further up this noticeboar to the section: User:JPG-GR. It the same dispute degarding "disruption by User:Schwalker. He is currently involved in two(2) disruption disputes on this Noticeboard. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, please do look at #User:JPG-GR, which describes another example of Ludvikus's disruptive editing and moving at another page. Or visit Talk:On The Jewish Question to see that his disruptive editing continues. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The user has made a number of disruptive edits already. I've warned him he's in danger of violating the 3RR rule in two articles and got this message on my talk page. Just to note that the last sentence in Slavic languages means: Eat my d*ck. He has also uploaded a bunch of images: [58] [59] and [60] with most probably false PD-self tags. --Laveol T 21:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like the user in question has asked another user for help with me [61]. He seems to have called me a kapuk (must be some not very nice word whatever it means. --Laveol T 21:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have left a warning on their user talk page regarding the personal attack for now.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I hope he'll calm down eventually. --Laveol T 21:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- He broke WP:3RR on Template:Ethnic Macedonians after I warned him [62]. Should I go to the 3RR noticeboard? --Laveol T 21:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- User doesn't take any warnings seriously. He broke 3RR again on Bulgarians--Laveol T 20:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have left a warning on their user talk page regarding the personal attack for now.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
CorenSearchBot (Bot)
This bot, while useful in some respects, uses self-righteous language in talk pages and edit summaries. Creator doesn't take note of people's concerns. Artlondon (talk) 22:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Diffs? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think it would have been more appropriate to notify the owner of the bot, instead of posting here. I've already dropped it off on Corens talk. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 23:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
You've made a number of cut-and-paste moves. :/ I'm going to clean this up, but please refrain from doing so in the future. east.718 at 03:00, May 9, 2008
- Coren looks to have singularly ignored the last four complaints about his bot immediately flagging immediate mirror scrapings of new articles. MickMacNee (talk) 11:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence that Coren has "singularly ignored" these, or are you just assuming bad faith to a startling degree? ➨ REDVEЯS is now 40 per cent papier mâché 11:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Of course I have evidence, it's you Redvers who has no good faith around here. MickMacNee (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence that Coren has "singularly ignored" these, or are you just assuming bad faith to a startling degree? ➨ REDVEЯS is now 40 per cent papier mâché 11:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, that's quite a bold and sweeping statement about me. Do you have evidence to back that up? ➨ REDVEЯS is now 40 per cent papier mâché 12:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I see definitely no issue with the current wording of the bot's message, which is (I took it from Artlondon's talk page):
I have performed a web search with the contents of XXX, and it appears to be very similar to another wikipedia page: YYY. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case.
- Coren not being very active these days, I can understand if he tries to do something productive of his time... Seriously... -- lucasbfr talk 13:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
A user named Colonel Warden(talk), while usually not a vandal per se, seemingly took my earlier unrelated merging proposal too personally and now repeatedly reverts my edits of the page with no regard to the provided arguments. I don't know how exactly the process works, but I would like to ask an intervention by somebody who has the authority to make resultant the edit war stop. My earlier arguments about the inappropriateness of the use of "several" can both be seen either on Talk:Multiplayer_game and on the history page of Multiplayer_game. Again, since Colonel Warden, who quite obviously has no visible background in video gaming, contradicts his own proposed definition of the term and and doesn't provide any explanation for his actions, I can only threat this as an act of vandalism. Thank you. Rankiri (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Whilst Colonel Warden can have his moments, in this case I think he's right. A proposed merger of Multiplayer video game and PC Multiplayer is fine (and even necessary), but Multiplayer game has nothing to do with either of these articles, bar the fact that the video game element could be mentioned in that article. Regardless, this is a content dispute, which is on the third door down on the left. Black Kite 23:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- The matter seems resolved here but we may just note for the record that I have discussed the matter extensively on the relevant talk pages and that my position rests upon reliable sources such as the OED. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Complainants advised to seek dispute resolution. Discussion has reached an impasse of mutual recrimination; nothing is going to be solved here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Done Suggest users move matter to mediation, as this situation appears to be better suited for that forum versus this one. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I have done my best to avoid requesting admin attention ... but have finally reached the last straw. I have been continually attacked, and harassed, by User:Mattisse for several months. We have a long ongoing feud that goes back to around Feburary. Recently after his/her several week break - he/she has returned to his/her old tactics. I have requested numerous times that the user
STOP = on his/her talk page and am unsure of what recourse I have. Mattisse has made it a practice of slandering me in public forums, to admins, following my contributions and trying to challenge every one of them, etc. I know there is not a "block" option ... but is there a way I can have an admin review the situation and possibly tell Mattisse to no longer have contact with me/my edits/ or use my name to attack me in public etc? I am also seeking help because I am aware that I am becoming so frustrated that I can no longer remain civil towards this user who has expressed Bad Faith with me on a constant basis. Thank you for what ever assistance/advice you can provide. Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 23:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Notified. It would helpful if you provided diffs. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am afriad I am not privy to the lingo per "diffs". What would you like me to do ? Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 02:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know the background on this, but feel it should be noted that the two come freshly off an edit war at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Coppertwig. Dorftrottel (troll) 00:37, May 9, 2008
- The background appears to be a conflict that stems from Che Guevara and its talk page. From what I can tell, the article lost its FA status due to a number of issues, one of which was POV. It is my understanding that during FAR, Mattisse tried to help improve the article and preserve its FA status, and at this point, she came into conflict with Redthoreau who was in turn supported by Coppertwig. Looking at the FAR and related discussions, I get the sense that Mattisse felt disrespected and attacked, as her efforts to improve the article were repeatedly reverted. I have asked Redthoreau several times on his talk page to just ignore Mattisse and stop leaving her messages, but he refuses to do that. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Mattisse has asked him to stop using her talk page as well. As someone who has come into conflict with Mattisse in the past but now has a good working relationship with her, I think it is fair to say that she is often misunderstood. Recently I found myself seriously disagreeing with one of her edits, and when I inquired further I discovered that she was 100% correct, and I was wrong, and in the process, I even managed to learn something from her. I would like for an editor other than myself to ask Redthoreau to stop contacting Mattisse, and hopefully this will die down. I think Mattisse has a right to be upset, but she needs to focus her energy into the appropriate DR outlets. Viriditas (talk) 01:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Viriditas, although I respect your opinion, and the fact that you are her friend, I question the validity of your interpretation and objectivity in this regard. It appears to me that you have accepted and parroted her "revisionist" view of the reality, and I would ask you to view her own talk page and the numerous times I have asked her (just in the past 2 days) to stop attacking me. Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 02:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The background appears to be a conflict that stems from Che Guevara and its talk page. From what I can tell, the article lost its FA status due to a number of issues, one of which was POV. It is my understanding that during FAR, Mattisse tried to help improve the article and preserve its FA status, and at this point, she came into conflict with Redthoreau who was in turn supported by Coppertwig. Looking at the FAR and related discussions, I get the sense that Mattisse felt disrespected and attacked, as her efforts to improve the article were repeatedly reverted. I have asked Redthoreau several times on his talk page to just ignore Mattisse and stop leaving her messages, but he refuses to do that. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Mattisse has asked him to stop using her talk page as well. As someone who has come into conflict with Mattisse in the past but now has a good working relationship with her, I think it is fair to say that she is often misunderstood. Recently I found myself seriously disagreeing with one of her edits, and when I inquired further I discovered that she was 100% correct, and I was wrong, and in the process, I even managed to learn something from her. I would like for an editor other than myself to ask Redthoreau to stop contacting Mattisse, and hopefully this will die down. I think Mattisse has a right to be upset, but she needs to focus her energy into the appropriate DR outlets. Viriditas (talk) 01:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Suggest one or both parties take this to mediation. That is the proper forum for this matter, not AN/I. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I dont know, I think they are past mediation, and may require a more permanent solution. Tiptoety talk 02:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but I'd hate to see two users who appear to have good faith in mind, but different ideas about how to accomplish said good faith, get blocked for something that could possibly be worked out via mediation. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agree, and I am not recommending blocking. But both of their behavior on the last few hours has resulted in a great deal of disruption to the project, and I am finding a pretty lengthy history of such events between them. Tiptoety talk 02:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I just read Coppertwig's RfA; did Redthoreau really use the words "multiple personality" to describe another editor ???? No matter how much bad blood these two have, that's over the line. ("I consider it an epic travesty that anyone would waste more than 1 minute addressing the troll-like/multiple personality behavior of Mattisse.") SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agree, and I am not recommending blocking. But both of their behavior on the last few hours has resulted in a great deal of disruption to the project, and I am finding a pretty lengthy history of such events between them. Tiptoety talk 02:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but I'd hate to see two users who appear to have good faith in mind, but different ideas about how to accomplish said good faith, get blocked for something that could possibly be worked out via mediation. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I dont know, I think they are past mediation, and may require a more permanent solution. Tiptoety talk 02:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Suggest one or both parties take this to mediation. That is the proper forum for this matter, not AN/I. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)Mattisse' freedom to edit: Mattisse apparently wants to edit Che Guevara but stopped editing the article a few weeks ago apparently because Mattisse felt threatened by me and by Redthoreau; I was trying to play a mediator-like role between the two of them. After Mattisse stopped editing Che Guevara, Mattisse began editing The Motorcycle Diaries, a Che-Guevara-related page, and Redthoreau complained about Mattisse choosing that article to edit; I cringed at the tone of Redthoreau's messages to Mattisse since I thought Mattisse might feel unwelcome to edit that article too. See an earlier AN/I thread re incivility by Redthoreau towards Mattisse.
Complaints about complaints: Both Mattisse and Redthoreau have at times accused the other of following them around. Their complaints about each others' behaviour often contain strong words such as "harass" and these complaints then become a source of further complaint, leading to repeating cycles of such complaints. They have been warned not to post templates on each others' talk pages for this reason. I suggest that both users consider doing nothing in response to such complaints rather than continuing the cycles.
Mattisse posts allegation: The current problem seems to stem from Mattise posting an allegation that Redthoreau was the cause of Polaris999 quitting editing Che Guevara; not very credible since Mattisse has also recently posted a number of baseless statements about me on my talk page and on my RfA. Redthoreau takes offense at the allegation.
I agree, I think they should go to mediation. Perhaps I should be included too.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)- Ugh, my head hurts now. *grin* Times like these almost make me wish that there was a WP version of a restraining order available that could be applied to editors in situations like this, because - looking at the edit histories - I don't really see any other major issues involving other users... just these two toward each other. I still stand by my suggestion of mediation, but obviously that's a step that one or the other of the folks involved here will have to initiate. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Reply from Mattisse: I do not think you should take the outcome of a few hours to determine my fate. I have been on Wikipedia for over two years and have over 45,000+ edits. I realized a long time ago that I was no longer allowed to edit Che Guevara nor have I have not done so since that was made clear to me. I was also made clear that I was not allowed to edit any Che Guevara related articles. When I was working on categorizing biographies I, without thinking, included Che's The Motorcycle Diaries in my work and was attacked by Redthoreau (although defended by Coppertwig who is usually his patron). I reiterate I realize that I am banned from editing any Che Guevara or related articles. The problems today were caused because today I chose to express myself in in public forums on public subjects, more than one of which (eg questions on image copyright) Redthoreau chose to revert and was reprimanded.
If you choose to reject Viriditas thoughtful analysis, then so be it. User:Redthoreau has not presented diffs for his criticisms, despite the requests. Those who are interested can see for themselves the unfortunate results of the conflict of the RFA for Coppertwig. However, any disagreement or interaction I have with User:Redthoreau is limited to that RFA, despite his continued unfortunate posts on my user page. I am not permitted to edit pages on his sole topic, Che Guevara, and I do not do so; therefore there should be no problem. I absolutely refuse to engage in any kind of mediation or dispute resolution. User:Redthoreau has not provided any diffs that indicate the need for resolution.
I admit that I am unhappy about being kicked off subjects that I have been involved in for two years by a single subject editor who started editing last November or December. However, such is Wikipedia, although I am considered one of Wikipedia:Highly Active Users on a wide range of topics. Considering that, I have had extremely few editing problems with other editors and have received many Barnstars and other rewards of thanks. I am not a problematic editor. However, if you chose to treat me as such, I will have to consider my options. I have already decreased my editing considerably due to the whole interaction and outcome of the Che Guevara article. User:Polaris999, who had edited the article for some years was driven off also. I realize that in very many ways, Wikipedia is an extremely unpleasant place and I try to adjust accordingly. I am doing my best. I am willing to consider all suggestions and am sorry about my behavior regarding the Coppertwig RFA, which spiraled out of control. However, I am a human being and can only take so much abuse. Surely, I am allowed to question the copyright status of images, which I believe is Redthoreau's sole complaint about me currently besides my public views on the User:Iantresman issue and my votes on the RFA. Sincerely, –Mattisse (Talk) 03:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Response to Mattisse. (1) Your amount of time and number of edits on Wikipedia are irrelevant. You have also been blocked 6 times, and the majority of your edits are categorizing, or creating small stub articles (for songs, obscure places etc) which only you ever work on - hence you don't have to use "people skills" in editing with others. (2) Per "diffs" as I state above - I am not sure what that means. If he is referring to citations of your behavior then sure. In the 2 days since you have been back from your several week hiatus (in which I harmoniously edited - with 0 problems with other editors), you have made obvious veiled references to me as being a "POV pusher", "aggressive", "amoral", and "abusive". You have made obvious but 'cleverly' veiled references to me not only on 2 editors talk pages 1 2, but also the Wikipedia Administrators' notice board 3. All of these were unprovoked, as I had not had any contact with you in weeks - as I had (naively I guess), believed that you were finally willing to go about your way and edit without constantly making unfounded and merit-less attacks against me --- as you did during the several weeks where you made it a hobby to harass me, my talk page, and any article I was working on a daily/hourly basis. You continued to make unprovoked attacks WP:APR against me by referring to me "stalking" you, being "abusive" etc. You have also taken up the former hobby of following my actions around and attempting to get content I upload/add deleted as you have here, and here. You have been warned about this practice before 7 weeks ago ... From your own talk page archive:
Following the contribution history of a user and posting to articles they've edited can be appropriate at times, but is inappropriate if the purpose is to punish or annoy the user. Since other people can't always tell what one's intentions are, one needs to be careful if following someone's contrib history because it might look as if one's purpose is to annoy. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- You have also slandered me in public Here. (Polaris never stated that I was the reason he quit, I admired Polaris and always ceded to his judgment as I publicly stated many times. I would have followed any of his suggestions as I showed time and time again. For all I know you most likely were the reason he left - as you were for SandyGeorgia.) I was removed from the process at the time and had stopped editing while you, Polaris, and Sandy worked things out. You then ran them both off on your own ... leaving just me and you. YOU then became angry because I wouldn't let you run me off. Coppertwig arrived and was actually fair ... and thus you accused him of "defending me" even though he was just being fair against your behavior. Furthermore, it appears that this is usual practice by you as several editors have emailed me today and told me that they have had previous run ins with and sock puppets of yourself that resemble mine, and apparently you have built yourself up a reputation (making it easy to see why you are now trying to "Change" your name because of the backlash from your behavior). I am willing to go to mediation, have a restraining order, do anything possible to ensure that I never have to be harassed or have my path crossed with you again. I love Wikipedia and what it represents, and have shown that I can edit thousands of times without many problems - except in relation to you. I have extended olive branches to you in the past, and would again if I actually thought it would get me anywhere. Sadly I don't think it will. Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 04:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Addendum To correct an impression conveyed by User:Coppertwig above that I edited the article until my recent break, my last edit to Che Guevara was on April 4,2008 after Coppertwig began heavily editing the article in the later part of March 2008 and it was made plain to me that all my edits would be reverted so therefore that there was no point in my editing. I tried to offer helpful suggestions via the FAC and talk pages because of my familiarly with FAC and MoS but my suggestions were not well received so I ceased participating, although it hurt me to see the article loss it's FAC status. –Mattisse (Talk) 03:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Addendum2 If there is any insistence that I enter a mediation or dispute resolution with Coppertwig and Redthoreau, I shall refuse since the problem from the beginning has been that they have edited as one and had a very cozy relationship, although Coppertwig (I note he denies this now) presented himself as an objective mediator between us, addressing many posts to the both of us in a fatherly tone as if he were neutrally seeking a consensus between us. This was not true. His remarks above are the most revealing he has made. Until those, he has always worded himself as neutral party when addressing us in one of his many mutual posts to the two of use or in addressing me solely. Of course, I was aware of his many flattering and overly friendly posts to Redthoreau (considering he was, I thought, neutral) but I chose to disregard the evidence. Redthoreau took over the Che Guevara aricle in December of 2008 and made hundreds upon hundreds of edits subsequently. I urge anyone who wants to try to determine the truth to look at the number of edits by Redthoreau and the articles he edited and when the edits were made, using Kate's tool. (You can do the same for Polaris999, Coppertwig, and me.) I think the results will be revealing. As I recall, Redthoreau made more edits to Che Guevara in three months then Polaris999 did in several years as the main editor of the article. Therefore, at that point, I thought Coppertwig was our only hope, although the FAC people backed out immediately, seeing the situation for what it was. If you read the FACR transcript you can see what happened. I urge anyone standing in judgment of me to read it. –Mattisse (Talk) 04:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Classic vintage Mattisse on display. If you don't agree with him/her you are just out to get him/her. If you side with him/her then you are fair and considerate. If you challenge his/her behavior then he/she brings up all of his/her edits thinking it adds credibility and calls you in effect a "peon". Everything is harmonious as long as you never disagree with him/her. He/she will never back down ... (to the death) it seems ... and knows no such thing as compromise. If he/she doesn't get her way ... he/she will make you life a living hell (as I have sadly found it) by tendentiously editing, gaming the system, and disrupting to make a point. Coppertwig is the fairest person I have ever seen on Wikipedia and he has also rebuked me when I have been in error. At one time, Mattisse liked Coppertwig - when he/she thought the rebukes were only going to be in relation to me. But sadly Coppertwig is now learning the "hard way" what happens if you double cross the notorious Mattisse ... who will edit hundreds/thousands of times in a week and bury you in your attempt to keep up with him/her. Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 04:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Again, this is not the proper forum for this discussion. Please take this to mediation and present your respective cases there. Redthoreau, your statement borders on incivility and does not reflect well upon your argument here. As I stated above, I don't see any major disagreements with other users, as of late, in regard to either of you.... just between yourselves. So, I must ask a logical question -- Why not simply ignore each other, if you don't want to try to work things out at mediation? --InDeBiz1 (talk) 04:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies InDeBiz1, I wasn't aware that your statement at the top meant we weren't supposed to talk here anymore. To your question on ignoring ... I would gladly agree to never mention her/his name ever again, never contact, edit, or have any contact. But I fear that he/she wouldn't abide by the same rule. I have pleaded with him/her for this agreement going back weeks - and thought it was in place why he/she was on vacation for a few weeks. But within hours of his/her return he/she began attacking me all across wikipedia - forcing me to respond and defend myself. Can I go to mediation if he/she refuses ? Would it just be me there talking to myself ? Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 04:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Amen, brother. I don't know about everyone else, but I've had enough of this squabbling and am archiving the thread. Nothing is going to be solved here. Take it to WP:DR. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies InDeBiz1, I wasn't aware that your statement at the top meant we weren't supposed to talk here anymore. To your question on ignoring ... I would gladly agree to never mention her/his name ever again, never contact, edit, or have any contact. But I fear that he/she wouldn't abide by the same rule. I have pleaded with him/her for this agreement going back weeks - and thought it was in place why he/she was on vacation for a few weeks. But within hours of his/her return he/she began attacking me all across wikipedia - forcing me to respond and defend myself. Can I go to mediation if he/she refuses ? Would it just be me there talking to myself ? Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 04:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Addendum2 If there is any insistence that I enter a mediation or dispute resolution with Coppertwig and Redthoreau, I shall refuse since the problem from the beginning has been that they have edited as one and had a very cozy relationship, although Coppertwig (I note he denies this now) presented himself as an objective mediator between us, addressing many posts to the both of us in a fatherly tone as if he were neutrally seeking a consensus between us. This was not true. His remarks above are the most revealing he has made. Until those, he has always worded himself as neutral party when addressing us in one of his many mutual posts to the two of use or in addressing me solely. Of course, I was aware of his many flattering and overly friendly posts to Redthoreau (considering he was, I thought, neutral) but I chose to disregard the evidence. Redthoreau took over the Che Guevara aricle in December of 2008 and made hundreds upon hundreds of edits subsequently. I urge anyone who wants to try to determine the truth to look at the number of edits by Redthoreau and the articles he edited and when the edits were made, using Kate's tool. (You can do the same for Polaris999, Coppertwig, and me.) I think the results will be revealing. As I recall, Redthoreau made more edits to Che Guevara in three months then Polaris999 did in several years as the main editor of the article. Therefore, at that point, I thought Coppertwig was our only hope, although the FAC people backed out immediately, seeing the situation for what it was. If you read the FACR transcript you can see what happened. I urge anyone standing in judgment of me to read it. –Mattisse (Talk) 04:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Addendum To correct an impression conveyed by User:Coppertwig above that I edited the article until my recent break, my last edit to Che Guevara was on April 4,2008 after Coppertwig began heavily editing the article in the later part of March 2008 and it was made plain to me that all my edits would be reverted so therefore that there was no point in my editing. I tried to offer helpful suggestions via the FAC and talk pages because of my familiarly with FAC and MoS but my suggestions were not well received so I ceased participating, although it hurt me to see the article loss it's FAC status. –Mattisse (Talk) 03:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Mediation will not be necessary. My unilateral peace offering. Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 16:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Block Review: User:Zscout370 blocking User:Redrocket
- Zscout370 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Redrocket (talk · contribs · logs · block log)
- Relevant links: Redrockets talk page, Zscout370's talk page
I would like a review by the community of the recent actions of User:Zscout370. Zscout370 blocked User:Redrocket, an established editor with over a years experience and 5500 edits, for 12 hours with the block reasons of "you were told not to post real names, yet you still did". To give a quick background on what happened, User:Hdayejr was attacking User:TPIRFanSteve (see [63], [64], [65], the user's contribs and here especially) and Redrocket helped revert some of the attacks. Hdayejr was subsequently indefinitely blocked. He has returned as many IPs and a user name, all of which have been blocked (see the checkuser case). TPIRFanSteve wrote a comment on Redrockets talk page, saying thank you for his help with "Mr. D***" (revision since oversighted). Another sock of Hdayejr, User:Harvey1976, posted on WP:AN/I (archive link) complaining about the users last name ("Mr. D***") being posted on Redrocket's talk page. This discussion was quickly dismissed, archived, and Harvey1976 was blocked indefinitely for socking and vandalism. At about this time, IPs (obvious socks) came to Redrockets talk page and tried to remove the name, with Redrocket reverting the edits based on the fact that the user in question was banned from editing and Redrocket deemed it unacceptable for the IPs to alter a comment made on his talk page by TPIRFanSteve. At about this time three editors commented on Redrockets reverting saying that he should not restore the users last name, even though the user is banned from editing. After which Redrocket replaced the users last name with his user name [66] (the revisions before his are oversighted) Then Redrocket explained the reason he was making the edits (obviously in good faith) here and logged off. Zscout370 responded to the comment with "I don't care..." and blocked Redrocket for 12 hours.
So ultimately a banned editor who has harrassed multiple editors on and off-wiki wins and gets an established editor blocked for restoring a comment made on his talk page that was being removed by IP editors (Redrocket was not the original editor to post the name). Now not only was this block purely punitive, Zscout370 failed to assume good faith on the part of an established editor, failed to properly communicate with Redrocket, as seen by his short 3 comments on his talk page, and his "block and run" (Zscout370 has failed to reply to Redrocket as of this posting, nor has he replied to my concerns or of the concerns of two other editors and another admin on Redrocket's talk page, he has only made a total of 4 edits since his block 19 hours ago as of this post). This block was grossly uncalled for, unjust, unfounded in policy, and was not preventative, as Redrocket was not actively editing when blocked, and he is an established editor, who should have been given more than one chance even if his edits were deemed inappropriate by Zscout370 (I mean come on, we give the worst vandals four warnings). So in the end we have an established user blocked because of miscommunication and trolling comments made a banned user (so much for not feeding the trolls) and an "over-zealous" (as deemed by his quick block) admin who did not take the time or energy to figure out the situation and give Redrocket the benefit of the doubt. Now we have a user who is crushed and feels betrayed, and probably questioning whether or not to leave this site (I know I would after a situation like this). Is this how we really want to treat the editors here?
In the end, the block will probably forever stand in his record, but there are some things that should be done to help Redrocket. I personally expect an explanation, admission of error, and an apology to Redrocket from Zscout370. Also, Zscout370 (or another admin) should block Redrocket for 1 second, explaining that the previous block was uncalled for and unfounded. Ultimately the community needs to clear Redrocket's name, and warn Zscout370 that blocks of this nature will lead to a bad path.
Thank you for your time in reviewing this matter. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 02:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Support suggestion, as written. Block appears to have been unjustified. --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I am not an admin, and since I have not been floating around long enough, I don't really know, but would my support/turn down of this have any meaning? Or is it only other admins?— DædαlusT@lk / Improve 02:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Any user can comment on this noticeboard, and all comments will be met with the same weight. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 02:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- By all means, offer your opinion! I, after all, am not an administrator (yet... someday, perhaps), but I'll often browse this board and weigh in if I have an opinion. As long as you're following WP:CIVIL and contributing something to the discussion, it's "all groovy," as the chill'uns say. :) --InDeBiz1 (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Any user can comment on this noticeboard, and all comments will be met with the same weight. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 02:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Support Then I offer my opinion. The blocking admin was completely in the wrong, as he did not even follow policy leading up to the block. I see one warning, and the block was issued because RR posted the username. I do not see repeated warnings like the user stated happened. As Gonzo said, last time I checked, it was not only policy to remove edits made by a banned user, but it is also policy to warn a user 4 times, visibly on the offending user's talk page, so that others may verify said warnings. Such of course, in this case, was not done. Further, RR was not even the offending party, it just happened to take place on his page.
- So, what happened here, an edit-war with a banned user on another established editor's page gets the established editor banned? My personal opinion is not only what Gonzo requested, but that the admin in question has his use of powers reviewed by other admins.
- What is an admin that can't follow policy? I may be going to far here, but straight to the point, a temp de-sysop until the user in question knows WP policy like the back of his hand.— DædαlusT@lk / Improve 03:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- We also need to remember that admins get the same respect as Redrocket should have had, and only after continued misuse and warnings should action be taken. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 03:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment There is no policy I am aware of which entitles one to 4 warnings before a block. See WP:WARN , which says "Level 1 – Assumes good faith. Generally includes "Welcome to Wikipedia" or some variant. Level 2 – No faith assumption. Level 3 – Assumes bad faith; cease and desist. Level 4 – Assumes bad faith; strong cease and desist, last warning. Level 4im – Assumes bad faith; strong cease and desist, first and only warning." We should not use a level 1 warning for such an established editor, because the "Welcome to Wikipedia" is insulting. Three warnings would be more typical. A new vandalism-only account typically gets three warnings before a block. I would certainly expect no less for an established and productive editor. I think that the real world name of an editor should be removed. At the same time, the block seems excessive and premature and should be lifted. Edison (talk) 04:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it appears that the real name of the editor in question is in his actual username. Read it. If a username is User:johnsmithjr, and I say "cut it out Mr. Smith", um, am I revealing anything that the user didn't already reveal themselves?!?!? I mean, its not as if it would take any investigation to figger out the real last name if the real last name is in the actual username!!! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Amen. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 04:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it appears that the real name of the editor in question is in his actual username. Read it. If a username is User:johnsmithjr, and I say "cut it out Mr. Smith", um, am I revealing anything that the user didn't already reveal themselves?!?!? I mean, its not as if it would take any investigation to figger out the real last name if the real last name is in the actual username!!! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- If it helps, here is the diff of when I removed the need for oversight on AN/I. [67] I was the one who emailed for oversight. I have no opinion on the matter right now but just wanted to show this to anyone who cares. =D <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 04:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hah, thanks for the diff, you gotta love the wonderful trolling going on by the IPs trying to get Redrocket blocked... « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 05:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment From User:Redrocket: I've written this several times, but found myself going into too much detail. If I leave anything out, please feel free to ask questions.
In his first contact with me, ZScout370 said I had been warned before about the edit. I had not. User:Hdayejr had previously raised the issue at ANI here [68], which was quickly closed and the user's sock blocked. Other editors reinstated the edit on my page (which has been oversighted, so I can't provide links), and I was not consulted at all about this.
I was never warned by anyone except the sockpuppets and IPs of a multiply-banned user, which should be disregarded as per wikipedia policy. The previous ANI came and went, and was closed in less than three hours with the edits still on my page. No legitimate editor or admin had any problem with the comment left prior to this discussion.
ZScout370 made his comment, so I went to his page. Nowhere on his page that I could find indicated that he was an admin (no admin icon in his top right corner, no admin category link on the bottom of the page) so I assumed he was another editor. Assuming good faith, I went to his page here [69] and tried to explain.
ZScout370 came back to my page (after I was off-wiki), saw my explanation, and blocked me with no further discussion other than what was listed above ("I don't care...). Most maddening of all, he got off wiki with no chance for discussion. He only made four more edits (as far as I can see) in the next 24 hours, and only stopped by my page to dismiss the comments of other editors by saying I "had been told many times," which is untrue, and "The block should expire soon, as I only had it for 12 hours."
That's not a satisfactory response, in my opinion. I got a drive-by block, my first in more than a year of editing.
I feel this admin was completely out of line here. He took the word of an IP sockpuppet (which was tagged as such prior to my block here [70]), and didn't bother to discuss it, explain himself, or even look at my contributions and block log to see that I've never had any trouble on wikipedia.
Gonzo Fan 2007 is right, I'm more than a bit pissed off at this. I've tried to do things the right way since day one here, and I've always hoped to one day make admin. I had a dispute that had no clear answer (privacy for banned user whose ID was their name) and I tried to discuss it with admins, and they ignored my attempts to talk it over in favor of slapping me with a block.
This is a perfect example of what gives wikipedia a bad reputation, and drives away quality editors.
I appreciate the work of Gonzo Fan in opening up this topic for discussion, and also Sarcasticidealist. These admins cleaned up my talk page last night after the banned IP editor that ZScout370 blocked me in defense of returned and revealed the real name of another editor several times, including once using a racial slur against him, if I recall correctly. Gonzo Fan 2007 has oversighted those edits, but he can verify that the attacks have continued even after my block.
I also appreciate the attention and opinions of other wikipedia editors in this matter. Redrocket (talk) 08:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I would point out that Redrocket is not entirely correct here. I warned him twice as well (and I have got an admin icon on my page, since that appears to be important) - once in this edit summary after I reverted his second re-insertion of the real name and just in case he didn't notice that, on his talk page as well. Yet he inserted the real name again.Black Kite 09:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- If I may fill in some details, your edit here [71] didn't actually revert the user name (or any other edit by me). This edit has summary "rvt - stop it, you've been warned already" and actually reverts a chunk of my talk page written by the banned sock of User:Hdayejr, which I assumed was a message to him. Following that, your next edit here [72] was the comment "Which bit of "do not post real names" was the part that was tricky to understand?" which sure seems to be assuming bad faith.
- No - remember that the diff is misleading (I posted it to show the edit summary) because your actual edit where you re-inserted the name has been oversighted, and thus is not visible. That edit of mine did remove the name you re-inserted. Also, the talkpage comment may appear to show bad faith, but I tend to do that when editors are reverting after being told what they are doing is wrong. I would point out that I am not commenting on the block here; merely that you did not mention the warnings from two admins, not just one.Black Kite 10:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I see your point, and I actually thought about the oversights last night after I had logged out. You're right, I did revert after ZScout's reversion, and I tried to explain what was going on to him here [73]. I thought once I made it known that the editor making the case was a banned sockpuppet, the matter would go away (as it did in the previous ANI discussion). An abusive user who's been banned for over a month still socking and starting arguments on wiki and trying to claim anonymity, even though his name is contained in his banned username, doesn't seem to be (by the first ANI) a cut-and-dried case of a privacy violation. While I was trying to explain, the anon IPs of User:Hdayejr continued to make changes on my page, including personal attacks such as this [74], and I'll freely admit reverting him again as a sock of a banned user. I tried to explain myself to every legitimate editor who came to my page, and it's quite frustrating to not get anyone to comment.
- However, after that post, I did not revert the user's real name again. You and another admin (Ricky81682 both made comments, so I spent the next hour or so writing up a full description of the sockpuppet's history and posted it to my talk page (after the ANI thread was taken down). I informed and invited you to comment here [75], which you ignored. I also added the the username of the banned user, not his actual name, as I explained above. Redrocket (talk) 09:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what happened after I warned you the second time, because I logged out; I wasn't ignoring it. Black Kite 10:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Understood, and I shouldn't have made that the issue. I don't blame you for not being on wiki, rather I'd like my actions to demonstrate the good faith I had in the system. I'd like to hope that my comments to ZScout, my posting to ANI (and then to my talk page), and then my notification of you and Ricky on your talk pages would show that I was trying to explain and discuss this matter. Likewise, I'll say again after you and Ricky posted, I did not revert the changes. I wanted to show that even though a banned user was manipulating my userpage, I was still willing to talk this out and not edit war. However, no one did that, and ZScout just logged back in to block me and dismissed me with "I don't care." Redrocket (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Black Kite, I am disappointed in your response here. If someone registers their account name as "Asmithjr" and then gets referred to as Mr. Smith, that's can't possibly be any violation of any privacy or anywhere near anything like "outing". Their name is self declared, and we can use any, or all, or part of it, to refer to them without worrying about privacy. The only reason it came up is because said user was evading their ban to continue and perpetuate the harassment of an editor. The only reason Redrocket was involved was because he was trying to help said editor cope with being harassed. Which is what we, as admins, should be doing -keeping editors from being harassed, not facilitating it, and certainly not by adding to it. You should be apologizing to Mr. Rocket (Sorry Red) for your role in this, not defending an inappropriate block, which unless there's something more (and I've been waiting -I don't think there is anything more) was a bad move. R. Baley (talk) 15:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Another part that concerns me about this incident is that if the original concern was an "outing" of a user, the original "outing" is still available on Redrocket's talk page history. If I follow things correctly, it was not Redrocket who originally "outed" the editor in question's name, but instead was TPIRFanSteve. Why was nothing said to TPIRFanSteve and only to Redrocket? I agree with R. Baley and Jayron32 in that I don't think an editor's privacy was breeched since the editor's real name was part of his username. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 16:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Gogo, something else for everyone to keep in mind is that the reason HdayeJr was able to wikilawyer in a plausible manner about privacy concerns is because he has been consistently violating our anonymity policy by outing Steve (sorry, TPIRFanSteve) with his original account and subsequent ban-evading, harassing sock accounts. Privacy violations are something with which he is very familiar, because he has done plenty of it . . .and purposefully, I might add. Protect our good-faith contributers, R. Baley (talk) 18:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- For background, last night Hdayejr once again came to my talk page and revealed the name of TPIRFanSteve multiple times before he was blocked. It's been oversighted by Gonzo. Redrocket (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- An anonymous IP did leave TPIRFanSteve's name on your talk page twice. Gonzo deleted the first one and I just deleted the second. They weren't oversighted. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- So basically we have anything but a clear cut case, where there is a big question of whether anything wrong was actually committed, and even if there was it was obviously in good faith with the user in question trying to communicate with everyone else, and then we have an admin block said user? And then, after the block, the admin "runs." I think the above comments show that this block was inappropriate, now what are we going to do to make this right? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 19:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- An anonymous IP did leave TPIRFanSteve's name on your talk page twice. Gonzo deleted the first one and I just deleted the second. They weren't oversighted. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- For background, last night Hdayejr once again came to my talk page and revealed the name of TPIRFanSteve multiple times before he was blocked. It's been oversighted by Gonzo. Redrocket (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Gogo, something else for everyone to keep in mind is that the reason HdayeJr was able to wikilawyer in a plausible manner about privacy concerns is because he has been consistently violating our anonymity policy by outing Steve (sorry, TPIRFanSteve) with his original account and subsequent ban-evading, harassing sock accounts. Privacy violations are something with which he is very familiar, because he has done plenty of it . . .and purposefully, I might add. Protect our good-faith contributers, R. Baley (talk) 18:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I would really like to get ZScout's side of the story at this point as everything I have read so far points to this being a truly unjustified block of Redrocket. Any possible actions/sanctions on ZScout shouldn't be taken without his/her input on this matter, just to give them a chance to explain their actions Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, I really don't care what the community decides to do about ZScout, I have made it clear that my main reason here is protecting and repairing the damage done to an established editor. My "what are we going to do to make this right?" is echoing the comment made by Mr. Baley, how are we going to "Protect our good-faith contributers." How are we going to make this right for Redrocket, was my main question. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 20:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with you there, it's a shame that an editor like Redrocket gets runs through the ringer like this due to a known troll's wiki-lawyering. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- To add to Mr. Fan's comment above, I'm not that plussed about seeking any "sanction" or "action" either. Zscout has been an admin longer than I've been editing (over 2x's as long. I think). And there would have to be a whole lot more there (problems revealed) to get me worked up to that extent. I'm assuming a lapse or misreading of the situation at this point. That said, harm was done, though I think its extent has been greatly mitigated by this thread. I believe that the best resolution, would be for Zscout to leave a note in the block log (per the blocking policy) clearing Redrocket and linking to this ANI thread. It would look best (for *everyone*, I might add) if Zscout did it him/herself. R. Baley (talk) 20:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you're looking for me to make contritions or apologies, none are coming. I am not going to block this user again just to say the last block was an error. I am not going to seek for this block log to be wiped. When it comes out to outing people's real names, there is no tier warning that we have to follow. If you out someone, we warn you once to knock it off. If not, blocks will occur. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect, how do you out someone who's already appeared to have outed themselves with their username? From what I gather and reading the thread, the user that was "outed" has his lastname in his username. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wow. Zscout, if this is going to be your response to a bad block, please don't block anyone else ever again. Bad blocks stir up drama that we don't need. Friday (talk) 20:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- No matter what happens on here anymore, everything will resort to drama. Had to block two users for edit warring on Kosovo and I been demanded by at least one person to clear their block log. I am not here to play babysitter. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, so say your real last name was "Scout," am I outing your identity by calling your "Mr. Scout?" And I think you seem to forget that the user whose "identity" was being outed was the same editor who has actually outed TPIRFanSteve, has harrassed "Steve" on and off-wiki, has been banned multiple times, and his abusing sock puppets. And who do you block? The editor who is trying to help Steve and stop a banned editor from abusing Wikipedia, the editor who made a good-faith effort to open the lines of communication, the editor who has made quality contributions for over a year? And no your not a babysitter, you are an administrator. You have the ability to block users, an ability that should not be used lightly or on a whim. You should have a solid reason for blocking per the blocking policy. Many editors and admins have called you on this block stating it was inappropriate, and your response is to call us on making drama. Seriously? If you want the "drama" to stop then right the wrongs. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- No; my real name is on here, so even if you said it, I won't personally be outed and I won't be upset by it. I am not going to write the wrongs, since the things that were asked of me, I either cannot do it or I refuse to do it. I can't clear block logs, that is a job of a developer. Plus, blocking the same user again just to say the last block was a mistake is counter productive and will just make that log even longer. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- First off, not asking you to clear logs, that usually doesn't happen except for extreme cases. Secondly, the length of the block log is not important, it is the symbolic righting of the wrong, something that is clearly written in our blocking policy. Zscout if I may, can I have an explanation of this block? I think we would all very much like to hear why you felt this block was needed? Cause so far everyone in this thread agrees your block was inappropriate. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hold up. So, Scout, you say that it is okay to list the real name of a user if that said user has revealed said name? Is it just me or does that seem like a double standard? I can't cite the diff, because the user's talk page was deleted, but it was stated by another user that the banned user revealed that his name was within his username. So, by your definition of outing, you banned RR for nothing?— DædαlusT@lk / Improve 22:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I second Daedalus's question. It seemed liek an unjustified block to me, but by just saying what you said Scout, you basically admitted that it taht it was a bad block, albeit rather backhandedly. Wizardman 22:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- First off, not asking you to clear logs, that usually doesn't happen except for extreme cases. Secondly, the length of the block log is not important, it is the symbolic righting of the wrong, something that is clearly written in our blocking policy. Zscout if I may, can I have an explanation of this block? I think we would all very much like to hear why you felt this block was needed? Cause so far everyone in this thread agrees your block was inappropriate. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- No; my real name is on here, so even if you said it, I won't personally be outed and I won't be upset by it. I am not going to write the wrongs, since the things that were asked of me, I either cannot do it or I refuse to do it. I can't clear block logs, that is a job of a developer. Plus, blocking the same user again just to say the last block was a mistake is counter productive and will just make that log even longer. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, so say your real last name was "Scout," am I outing your identity by calling your "Mr. Scout?" And I think you seem to forget that the user whose "identity" was being outed was the same editor who has actually outed TPIRFanSteve, has harrassed "Steve" on and off-wiki, has been banned multiple times, and his abusing sock puppets. And who do you block? The editor who is trying to help Steve and stop a banned editor from abusing Wikipedia, the editor who made a good-faith effort to open the lines of communication, the editor who has made quality contributions for over a year? And no your not a babysitter, you are an administrator. You have the ability to block users, an ability that should not be used lightly or on a whim. You should have a solid reason for blocking per the blocking policy. Many editors and admins have called you on this block stating it was inappropriate, and your response is to call us on making drama. Seriously? If you want the "drama" to stop then right the wrongs. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- No matter what happens on here anymore, everything will resort to drama. Had to block two users for edit warring on Kosovo and I been demanded by at least one person to clear their block log. I am not here to play babysitter. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you're looking for me to make contritions or apologies, none are coming. I am not going to block this user again just to say the last block was an error. I am not going to seek for this block log to be wiped. When it comes out to outing people's real names, there is no tier warning that we have to follow. If you out someone, we warn you once to knock it off. If not, blocks will occur. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, I really don't care what the community decides to do about ZScout, I have made it clear that my main reason here is protecting and repairing the damage done to an established editor. My "what are we going to do to make this right?" is echoing the comment made by Mr. Baley, how are we going to "Protect our good-faith contributers." How are we going to make this right for Redrocket, was my main question. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 20:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Zscout370, my friend, I'm sure you're a good admin and excellent editor. But, here, sadly, well, it seems you've made a bit of a mistake. So, let's keep this brief. When in a hole, stop digging, and undo the damage and end the drama by going to Redrocket's talkpage and saying sorry. And change the block log to clear his/her name. A quick block with an edit summary explaining that the whole thing was a bit of a slip. Problem solved. If you want to dig your heels in over this, well, that's your choice. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Just to point out, User:Friday has already blocked Redrocket for 1 second to clear his name and point to this discussion ([76]). I also would love to hear the answer to Daedalus969's question and second what AlasdairGreen27 said. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 23:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The two user accounts and one anon who added spam relating to the Langham Hotel in Hong Kong all need to be blocked. Also, since I rolled back a lot of edits by these users, I'd ask the admin who takes this case to review my actions and make sure I did it correctly. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 03:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Possible external link to malware
(ec2) Link removed Spartaz Humbug! 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I just tried to click the link to http://www.majalla dot org/books/law/rulesnamaz.htm in the article Salah#Other, but my antivirus software indicated that it might contain malware. Do others have the same problem? If so, the link should be removed asap. AecisBrievenbus 09:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Dear god, don't hyperlink it if you think it might be a problem. ViridaeTalk 09:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have looked at the link in question and examined a couple of hyperlinks within. I find (as of my only run) no attempts to inject or download anything other than http web pages. NonvocalScream (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Good catch, I used ff, no iframes. I did not look at the underlying code. NonvocalScream (talk) 11:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20256422-Question-about-HTMLFramerZ for more information. Note that the script will not execute directly when loaded as a style sheet - the problem is the style sheet is a broken link and the site's error redirector page is compromised. --Random832 (contribs) 17:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Err we have an issue.
A user ( Nicoleta Sofronie (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) ) moved Keith D (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) user and talk page to Roger Parslow (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) and now I'm lost! Looks like a vandal move however Bidgee (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
NeilNeilN promptly took care of it.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 13:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)- Um, that'd be me (very similar user names, I know). --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 13:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- D'oh.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 13:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Um, that'd be me (very similar user names, I know). --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 13:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
This appears to be part of some weird vandal/sockpuppet ring, originally dealing with boardgame articles. There was an ANI thread about it a week or so ago. It's related to User:Nastasija Marachkovskaja; I can't tell if all of these are her puppets, or if she's being impersonated by someone. I suspect the former, but since I'm not positive, and it was complicated, I'm only blocking the socks, not Nastasija Marachkovskaja.
I've blocked, I think, two of them, maybe three. There are a few more, but I didn't know it was going to turn into something, so I haven't kept close track, and I can't look into it for a while. In the mean time, if she hasn't been already, I'm going to block Nicoleta Sofronie as part of this little group, based on my interpretation of WP:DUCK. (Update: I see PPG already blocked thiso ne while I was typing.)
I recommend a good test of future socks is: If a new account edits, or otherwise pays attention to, the user pages of:
and doesn't respond to questions about what they're doing, they are not here to be productive, and I'd indef block them as part of this ring.
An adventurous soul could try to find the ANI thread, see who started that thread, and ask them for more insight, and add user pages to this list. Or do an RFCU to see if there are others. Or, look into it a bit more, and determine if User:Nastasija Marachkovskaja is a puppeteer or a victim. If/when I have time, I'll look at it in more depth myself. --barneca (talk) 13:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive410#Vandalism/sockpuppetry at board game articles is the archive link and I agree with the sock blocks. Woody (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I started the thread and it also included the user Billy Costa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) so those accounts might bear watching, too. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Woody, and Steven, yes that's the thread.
- Based on her behavior previous to the creation of these socks, I'm blocking User:Nastasija Marachkovskaja indef as the master account. This is not an innocent user being harrassed, this is an account that engaged in very similar behavior prior to the socks' creation. I can't imagine a situation where this user is not behind the additional accounts.
- There are more socks, but I don't see the need to list them all here anymore, per WP:DENY.
- I'm adding all of the above user pages to my watchlist, and will indef block new accounts engaging in similar behavior per WP:DUCK. Since blocking account creation doesn't seem to work, I assume this is a dynamic IP. As such, there may not be much left to say on this thread. WP:RBI. If it gets bad, I'll ask for a Checkuser to look into a rangeblock, but right now it isn't disrupting the mainspace very much, so I don't think it's needed right now. --barneca (talk) 15:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Question: There is one account, User:Eremia, that I am convinced is the same person, but which doesn't seem to be doing any vandalism. I don't know enough about the subject matter they're contributing to know ofr sure, but it appears, at first glance, to be legitimate (or mostly legitimate). Since I'm sure it's the same person, should I (a) block the account, (b) watch the account, or (c) attempt to discuss the situation with them at this user talk page, and try to convince them to stop the disruption. Does option (c) ever work? Anyone interested can see user:barneca/watch/bvr. --barneca (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on the policies, but given the history of disruption, I'd say that any new socks are blockable on sight. The strongest evidence is this edit made by User:Sofronie to Eremia's user page without any apparant objection by Eremia. (Note similar username to User:Nicoleta Sofronie.) So far as I know, none of these socks have responded to any discussions anywhere, but I suppose you can give it a try. I guess the approach most consistent with AGF is to find an active account, inform/remind them of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and invite them to contribute constructively to the project. As an aside, if you google these user names, you'll find that most of them are either real people or characters from fictional works. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Question: There is one account, User:Eremia, that I am convinced is the same person, but which doesn't seem to be doing any vandalism. I don't know enough about the subject matter they're contributing to know ofr sure, but it appears, at first glance, to be legitimate (or mostly legitimate). Since I'm sure it's the same person, should I (a) block the account, (b) watch the account, or (c) attempt to discuss the situation with them at this user talk page, and try to convince them to stop the disruption. Does option (c) ever work? Anyone interested can see user:barneca/watch/bvr. --barneca (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- This person's got several issues, but their main one seems to be that card games and board games should be called card sports and board sports. So, she changes article text, moves article pages, and populates and depopulates categories to achieve this, across multiple, multiple articles. She is always reverted by whoever is watching that particular article. She has never, as far as I can find, discussed this with anyone on any article talk page or on her talk pages.
- New clearly-disruptive socks of the same person are blockable on sight without warning. I think I've convinced myself that this person (on several different account names) has been told her changes don't have consensus enough times that continuing this on any account, regardless of whether that account is actually being used to vandalize, is disruption, and I think new accounts starting this same thing up right away can legitimately be blocked.
- I plan on making this point known to her on the Eremia account's talk page, and if the changes and page moves continue, I'm going to block that account too. I'll tell her that if she finds a talk page to discuss this, and stops making multiple accounts to do the same thing, then it's a simple content dispute, and WP:DR is available, and I will leave one of her accounts unblocked so she can participate. If the sock creation continues, I'll block all accounts, whether or not that particular account is disruptive, and whether or not they are participating in WP:DR with that account.
- Further review of this approach is welcome. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 20:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse. Clearly disruptive and intolerable. Your approach makes sense to me. --Rodhullandemu 20:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I still agree with what you're doing, Barneca. It may also be worth noting that User:Aliena Kvacha has received a bloqué indéfiniment from an administrateur as a result of a decision from the Comité d'arbitrage at the French language Wikipedia, so these accounts may have some trouble with the English language. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, in the process today of looking at pages this person has vandalized, I discovered that on the French Wikipedia (or, at least, some French speakers on this Wikipedia), a sockpuppet is called a "faux-nez", which still makes me smile every time I read or write it. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 22:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- "False nose?" That is 31 flavors of awesome. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, in the process today of looking at pages this person has vandalized, I discovered that on the French Wikipedia (or, at least, some French speakers on this Wikipedia), a sockpuppet is called a "faux-nez", which still makes me smile every time I read or write it. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 22:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I still agree with what you're doing, Barneca. It may also be worth noting that User:Aliena Kvacha has received a bloqué indéfiniment from an administrateur as a result of a decision from the Comité d'arbitrage at the French language Wikipedia, so these accounts may have some trouble with the English language. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Endorse. Clearly disruptive and intolerable. Your approach makes sense to me. --Rodhullandemu 20:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Further review of this approach is welcome. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 20:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Coren Bot
Can somebody please white list my account as I am receiving two messages a minute from Coren Bot which wrongly keeps taggin my new Burmese settlement articles of which I am adding two articles a minute. No response from User:Coren who operates it. Its driving me crackers. Will somebody help give the Bald Guy a break? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 14:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The issue is that it's saying you're copyvio-ing from a Wikipedia article - which would be true if formatting and non-substantive information in the article violated some copyright. Each article is a one-line stub that takes its format from the first article on your list, so I don't think there's anything problematic about any of them. Would there be any objections if I rollbacked the bot's tagging of those articles? As for whitelisting your edits, or edits in this area, or that source - I don't know. I'm not seeing a way on the bot's page, so my impulse would be to ask Coren. I'm hesitant to shut down the bot, but this isn't the first issue raised in the past few days. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The articles I spot checked are indeed copyvio-free, so I've removed all of the tags on your Burma articles. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 14:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, I checked several as well, and, I don't see any obvious copyvio's. Would you like for me to protect your talkpage for the time being, until we can get ahold of Coren? SQLQuery me! 14:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The whitelist appears to be at User:CorenSearchBot/allies -- at least I found my name there, and I'm not getting the notices anymore. – Sadalmelik ☎ 14:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've added your name to the whitelist - I've seen your mass article creations in the past and can understand how the bot might get confused because of them. If Coren objects, I'm sure he'll remove you, but I doubt he'll have a problem. Hersfold (t/a/c) 14:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Happy days are here again in the land of Wiki bots I guess... Is anyone going to take a position on Corenbot's instant tagging of mirror scrapes, highlighted a few posts above, or is it just going to be ignored because it's seemingly accepted that a bot op can be absent from wiki for days on end while still running a bot (or months it would appear since my talk post about it). MickMacNee (talk) 00:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Dispute between Bermudatriangle and Sennen goroshi
I repeat here what I wrote at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Rajkumar Kanagasingam.
- Conclusions
It's clear that there are issues here and at the counter-accusation Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Iwazaki that go far, far beyond whether Rajkumar is (again) using sockpuppets or not. My first impression is to recommend a short-term block on Bermudatriangle because I interpret his accusation against Sennen as WP:POINT, where the accusation on this page, especially connecting Bermudatriangle with Dhirroses, is based on reasonable evidence. This dispute has already gone to WP:ANI once (I'll look for the link), and I think it may be headed back there. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 15:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Shalom (Hello • Peace) 15:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Sennen is asking for an indef-block on Bermudatriangle. That may be too harsh, but not by much. I think Bermudatriangle has been disruptive and probably should be blocked temporarily until we can figure out how to mediate this dispute. Do you agree? Shalom (Hello • Peace) 15:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Shalom, thanks for looking into this. Without going too far into the basis of the dispute (occurring at or around the Princess Diana article, with respect to the inclusion/non-inclusion of the "Princess Diana Institute of Peace") . . .a cursory evaluation on my part makes me think that Bermudatriangle could be blocked without much detriment to the encyclopedia. Comparing the edit history of the 2 accounts in dispute ("wannabekate" for Bermudatriangle and "wannabekate" for Sennen_goroshi) looking at the 2 ANI "reports" as well as the SSP reports, leads me to a couple of conclusions: 1) BT is a 2 month old single purpose account with 2 trips already to ANI (more edits to ANI than any article or article talk page) which makes me think this is a SPA and possibly sock and has already been blocked once, 2) OTOH, Sennen_goroshi has edited fairly consistently since July 2007, made over 1500 edits, with an average of 2.8 edits per page across almost 600 different pages. Conclusion: probably non-tendentious and not a SPA (caveat: Sennen goroshi has been blocked twice for edit warring in the past, last time was in march. Neither block was related to this topic.) 3) Bermudatriangle seems to be here to advocate for the "Princess Diana Institute of Peace" not edit the encyclopedia generally and people who are volunteering their time here in a good faith manner shouldn't have to deal with that.
We could go slow and start out (at the very least) with a 2 month topic ban for Bermudatriangle for anything related to Princess Diana, to be interpreted very broadly. Also, any perpetuating of the dispute on BT's part (wrt Sennan goroshi) during this time would be met with increasing blocks. Or we could move fast, and I wouldn't be bothered by an permanent ban to be enforced with an indefinite block either. I slightly favor the "go slow" approach, should an admin be willing to closely supervise, otherwise an indefinite block is called for. I would appreciate more editor input (the links Shalom provided don't take that long to look over) and thanks, R. Baley (talk) 18:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
DemiLovato15
User:DemiLovato15 ignores repeated warnings (reverts them with messages like "stupid warnings are useless") and leaves insulting and argumentative messages liek this one on other people's talk pages as a result. -- David from Downunder (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- People being argumentative on Wikipedia?! Call the sheriff. </joke> Equazcion •✗/C • 16:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- In all seriousness, yeah this user does seem to need a good stern warning about civility. Equazcion •✗/C • 16:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've left the user a message regarding civility. Hopefully it'll do something. Equazcion •✗/C • 16:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- See here. Just saying.... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Edit-Warring/Repeatedly deleting text with deliberately misleading edit summaries
User User:TharkunColl repeatedly deleted text from the British Isles article, each time very loudly insisting that the text was not supported by the reference cited and that he was defending the truth in a rearguard action against POV pushers. The text was in fact verbatim supported in the references cited. User User:TharkunColl reverted two other editors who replaced the text, each time using CAPITAL LETTERS in the edit summary to state that the text was not supported by reference.
The diffs are [79], [80], [81].
The accompanying talk page comments include [82], [83], where TharkunColl repeats the assertion that the deleted text was not in the reference. The page was then partially protected, resulting in the following comments [84], and [85], with User:TharkunColl accusing the original editor of lying, and the reverting editors of being POV, a politicised minority, etc.
The deleted text, which can be very easily seen in the diffs from the article, appears in the reference given, i.e. the words "his imperial vision was simply propaganda and antiquarianism" appear in the article from the Canadian Journal of history at [[86] (look on page 2).
I pointed out on the talk page that the references did exist and that I believed the repeated deletions and misleading edit summaries qualified as vandalism. It has been pointed out that vandalism is generally considered to refer to more dramatic actions and that I should come to the general incidents board if I wanted to raise this issue. Once challenged with the detail from the reference, User:TharkunColl began defending his actions by claiming instead that he felt that the text he had deleted wasn't immediately relevant to the article and later by saying that he hadn't actually read the reference at all. I belive this is a post-hoc defense.
Given the LONG term issues around the British Isles article, I feel that such repeated deletion of supported text, such misleading edit summaries and the (incorrect) accusations of lying and POV are serious and that behaviour like this represents a major problem on a page with the problems of that one.
Note, I don't have strong feelings about the content deleted. I think it probably belongs, but it hasn't been discussed and I don't believe it's the point.
(I also feel - perhaps incorrectly - that two admins who frequent the page, John and Deacon of Pndapetzim, have strong views on the article content and perhaps ought to recuse themselves from any discussion on this incident.) Wotapalaver (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- You forgot to mention that part of my edit included rephrasing the bit that said that British trade in the North Atlantic dated to Saxon times. If that appears in the article then I certainly never saw it - and even if it does say it, it's demonstrably wrong. Incidentally, I have since added the whole quote, not just the half that was originally there. In any case, it is referring to the British Empire, not the British Isles. TharkunColl (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wasn't this matter brought up a couple of days ago on this or the other admin noticeboard? LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes on this very one and it was decided it was a content dispute involving User:Bardcom with no admin action required. Merkin's mum 19:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Are there any possible sanctions against those who repeatedly make malicious and/or frivolous complaints? TharkunColl (talk) 23:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is a separate complaint that has nothing to do with the wikistalking incident. And yes, the wikistalking conversation has not continued on any Talk page that I am aware of. Interesting that Merkinsmum interprets the previous incident as "no admin action required".....is that an assumption.... ??? --Bardcom (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Help desk query (Review requested)
I'm just posting my actions here for review. This post at the help desk which is from a Pakistani religious organization who are very upset about the content of this userpage. If you click the version, it's actually an article about the organization in question, posted as the userpage of a Wikipedia user who (apparently) is part of another organization which opposes the first. The userpage makes a bunch of claims, such as:
“ | It is obvious to say that the only objective of MF [the complaining organization] I is to create hurdles for International Spiritual Movement Anjuman Serfaroshan-e-Islam and to defame Gohar Shahi and provoke public anger against Gohar Shahi by producing blasphemous materials and ideas, claims by using the name of Gohar Shahi. | ” |
and
“ | Its name has been probably deliberately chosen so as to give it a larger than life image, as a respectable 'international' organization, rather than the bizarre cult that it actually is. | ” |
Naturally, this is totally incompatible with userpage guidelines, and clearly is using Wikipedia as a free soapbox for his political/religious views. It was previously deleted when it was being used as a promotional venue for the second organization mentioned. Bizarrely, on March 6, an admin protected the page when an IP user tried to delete some of the material mentioned, and a number of other users reverted them as well. It's clear that not only is this material confusing to users, who think it is an article, but it's also non-neutral and probably violates BLP guidelines, since the members of the organization are easily identifiable in the article. I have blanked the page, and left a note telling the user not to re-add this. --Haemo (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I concur with your actions. I would also consider protecting the blanked page version should the material be re-introduced (outside of any sanction imposed on whoever reverts.) LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've deleted and protected the page. Reviews, please? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 19:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Again concur. I suggest you note your actions to the users talkpage, in case they wish to create a legit userpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've done so, thanks. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 20:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Concur with the deletion. Inappropriate material for a userpage, so a valid deletion and protection, given that the account is pretty SPAish. GBT/C 20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Also concur. Necessary action. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Again concur. I suggest you note your actions to the users talkpage, in case they wish to create a legit userpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've deleted and protected the page. Reviews, please? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 19:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Vandalism including identifying info
User:Dimondlover vandalized three pages (Talk:Birth, Wikipedia talk:How to edit a page, and Help) by adding an individual's personal identifying information. I deleted the revisions from Talk:Birth, but the other two pages have enormous histories. I'm a bit out of my depth here as to how to handle this without causing problems. I don't want to crash the database by deleting and restoring all those revisions. Should this be oversighted? --Ginkgo100talk 19:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I will have a go at deleting/undeleting the articles - they should work if less than 5000 edits and I managed a 6000+ edit history just yesterday... LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC) * ...and done. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm here to request the blocking of True Steppa (talk · contribs). This person is disrupting the list of electronic music genres page by adding something that has no valuable data and there is no mention of the subject in question. Fclass (talk) 19:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please do not forum shop - if your original block request at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Dispute at List of electronic music genres is not getting traction now then wait until there is a consensus either way. Anyone wishing to comment further should do so at WP:AN, per the link. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
IfD rapidly running out of control
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- See the DRV and the links towards the end of this section for the wider discussions. Carcharoth (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_May_8#Image:Virgin_Killer.jpg - I do not subscribe to the view that we should keep shild porn just because we can, but regardless, the thing is running out of control. Guy (Help!) 20:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I already suggested it get closed but I appear to have been ignored. Rgoodermote 20:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- To clarify, are you asking for an uninvolved admin to review and close one way or the other? GBT/C 20:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I hope not. It's just being reported on Gawker (although, oddly, without a link to the IfD) and that's pretty 'big' in the blogosphere. Of course, people who think that they can vote on what is or isn't legal (which is up to the courts to decide) are coming and voting en masse. --TIB (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- To clarify, are you asking for an uninvolved admin to review and close one way or the other? GBT/C 20:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the image has been deleted. I can't see how kowtowing to a minor right wing organization trying to stir up publicity for itself is ever a good thing. Corvus cornixtalk 21:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've asked User:Angusmclellan for a policy-covered reason for the deletion, but, barring one, I plan on opening a DRV. I'm just going to wait for a response from the deleting admin before I do that. I might be surprised by his response. Corvus cornixtalk 21:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Eh. Just edit the article to include the meaningful discussion of the cover necessitated by the non-free content criteria cited in the closing argument (whew!) and get it undeleted - that'll give you fewer hoops to jump through (and consequently less drama) if you want the image back. --Kizor 21:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The article is currently protected, else this would have already been done. Jclemens (talk) 21:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- User:FCYTravis has now restored it. I think going DRV would have been a more cool-headed route, but I also think that Angus's deletion, which was by his own admission for a rationale other than those under discussion in the IFD, was a de facto speedy, and needs to be discussed as such. I don't think such a discussion reflects well on his decision to delete it. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Kizor has it spot on. Since the original debate never really touched on the NFCC#8 issues, there should be no problem getting the image undeleted once there is enough discussion of the image in the article to warrant having a copy of the image in the article under our non-free content criteria. Incidentially, WP:NFCC criteria #5 and #6 also apply here - the image needs to be encyclopedic and must meet "general Wikipedia content requirement" (ie. not be pornographic, which is what some people claim it is). But at the moment there is far too much drama around all this. I have a related discussion I want to get started once I find a location for it, but I fear it will get lost amongst the noise. Carcharoth (talk) 21:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The article is currently protected, else this would have already been done. Jclemens (talk) 21:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Eh. Just edit the article to include the meaningful discussion of the cover necessitated by the non-free content criteria cited in the closing argument (whew!) and get it undeleted - that'll give you fewer hoops to jump through (and consequently less drama) if you want the image back. --Kizor 21:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've asked User:Angusmclellan for a policy-covered reason for the deletion, but, barring one, I plan on opening a DRV. I'm just going to wait for a response from the deleting admin before I do that. I might be surprised by his response. Corvus cornixtalk 21:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Good God, what a mess. Well, if media outlets other than WorldNetDaily haven't picked this up, they certainly will now. IMO, the deletion was entirely correct; I was arguing for it to be deleted on ethical grounds, not having considered the fair use issue, but I agree with the closer's argument re WP:NFCC #8. In cases related to image licensing, it is perfectly acceptable to disregard consensus where said consensus violates licensing restrictions, since those are non-negotiable. I also think it should be deleted for fundamental ethical reasons, but let's not re-hash the IfD here. WaltonOne 21:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you argue that non-free images with borderline adherence with WP:NFCC should be speedily deleted without discussion of said adherence? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Then the closing admin should be in the process right now of speedy-deleting all album covers. If album covers fail NFCC, fine. Let's say that. Delete them all. FCYTravis (talk) 21:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- (to Sarcasticidealist) Generally, no. Image policy isn't my area of expertise, but I certainly wouldn't endorse that statement as a general rule. However, the fair use issues combined with the ethical issues certainly merited deletion. They are also related; the main problem is that the album cover is simply not necessary to provide encyclopedic coverage of the topic, which means that the fair use claim is dubious, and also raises the ethical issue of why we are keeping something so morally questionable when it isn't even necessary. WaltonOne 21:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, those sound like issues that we could discuss! Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- (to Sarcasticidealist) Generally, no. Image policy isn't my area of expertise, but I certainly wouldn't endorse that statement as a general rule. However, the fair use issues combined with the ethical issues certainly merited deletion. They are also related; the main problem is that the album cover is simply not necessary to provide encyclopedic coverage of the topic, which means that the fair use claim is dubious, and also raises the ethical issue of why we are keeping something so morally questionable when it isn't even necessary. WaltonOne 21:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, a DRV has been started at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 May 9. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Follow up comment - Please see Wikipedia:Image content guidelines for an attempt to start a guideline to consolidate and improve our guidelines on image content on Wikipedia. Please discuss at the talk page and help improve this new guideline, which was inspired by this and other recent image discussion controversies. There is also a talk page subpage covering stuff moved from the Signpost tipline discussion page. Carcharoth (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest closing this discussion here, as there's an ongoing discussion at DRV. Corvus cornixtalk 23:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Possible flood of edits to Flock (web browser) due to tweet
Flock has asked its 723 twitter followers to update their wiki page. --TIB (talk) 20:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oh goody. HalfShadow 21:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll watchlist it - but I doubt if it is going to be vandalised by the birdwatching fraternity. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll have a little faith here and hope that some of the contributors add to the article to improve it. Just canvassing for an article necessarily isn't bad, especially if the editors can be constructive, not destructive or disruptive. Wildthing61476 (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Especially when the person offers rewards for significant changes. --TIB (talk) 23:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've done some cleanup (copying the features pages verbatim does add text which sounds good), but the biggest concern should be copyright problems, not vandalism. I do think we have at least one or two new editors that might be coming out of this. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- User:Eric.k.herberholz is at least trying to be helpful. Can't really hold that against him. HalfShadow 01:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've done some cleanup (copying the features pages verbatim does add text which sounds good), but the biggest concern should be copyright problems, not vandalism. I do think we have at least one or two new editors that might be coming out of this. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Especially when the person offers rewards for significant changes. --TIB (talk) 23:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll have a little faith here and hope that some of the contributors add to the article to improve it. Just canvassing for an article necessarily isn't bad, especially if the editors can be constructive, not destructive or disruptive. Wildthing61476 (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
What up with User:Enigmaman ?
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
David Shankbone made a really great defence of Wikipedia on Wikipedia Review and was told he was a fool for it because Wikipedia would never thank him. So I thanked David on his talkpage in the name of Wikipedia, to both thank him and to prove the idiot at Wikipedia Review wrong. User:Enigmaman deleted it so I explained in clear English on his talk page what I was doing and restored the edit. So he deleted both messages. What is up with this guy? WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure. I've had good interactions with E-man. Have you told him about this thread so he could possibly explain his edits? Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I just restored your comments and asked him not to do that. I can see no legitimate reason for removing your comments let alone edit-warring over it - Alison ❤ 21:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Probably an over-enthusiastic application of WP:DENY and/or WP:EL. I know Engima really detests WR and giving them any attention on-wiki. MBisanz talk 21:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, however it doesn't fall under the auspices of Wikipedia:Linking to external harassment, IMO - Alison ❤ 21:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder though if Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#External_links would apply. A good part of that linked thread is assassinating Erik's character. MBisanz talk 21:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
[Enigmaman has inadvertently wiki-break'd himself out, so I am pasting this reply on his behalf] - Sorry, it was my mistake. I badly misread it and somehow thought it was harassment. My apologies to User:WAS_4.250.
I shouldn't have reverted you once, let alone three times (once on my page and twice on David's page).
I still don't think the link is appropriate, given its contents, but had I read it properly, I wouldn't have reacted in that way. -Enigmaman (Pasted by ScarianCall me Pat! 21:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC) from MSN)
- I've removed the link and left the quote. It's a moot point now, but ... HalfShadow 21:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
This is surely somebody's sock, but I can't tell whose with the tools I have. From the contribs, I'm guessing AntiEdit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Enjoy! SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 21:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- ... who is in turn a sock of blocked user:Bahameenballin. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 22:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- See here for checkuser request. Acroterion (talk) 22:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Sportsbook.com spammer
An apparent single purpose account is edit warring and continuously adding a link to the external links section of this article. Looks like obvious spam to me, but I'll leave it for an administrator to deal with. Apologies for not including the user, but it's probably obvious from the edit history that the editor in question is FadeIntoYou. Rray (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Notified User:Fadeintoyou about this discussion. I remove the link to a site that probably doesn't pass WP:RS which is purporting to be reviewing the site. I'll look more into it later. The edit dispute doesn't belong here, but the possible COI problem is worth looking into. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The entire entry is spam for Sportsbook.com! Are you kidding me? I'm trying to protect people from this criminal organization!Fadeintoyou (talk) 04:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- no what you are trying to do is push a single point of view, and it is getting old quickly. You have been advised several times as how to work with other editors on this matter but it appears to be going in one ear and out the other. Enough now. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ (talk) 04:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic categories
Is there someone knowledgeable re: multi-racial categorizations? A contributor is reverting a number of such biographical designations [87], and I do not know if the changes are legitimate or not. Cheers, JNW (talk) 23:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I thought the rule was, unless they were self-described or in a really good source, get the people out of the categories completely. Notified him anyway. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- No explicit rule. Going through 1, 2, 3 levels of abstraction about guidelines, it seems that for religious beliefs and sexual orientation, not unless the subject publicly self-identifies or the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. It isn't explicitly the same for ethnic groups but I'd follow a similar pattern. Any other ideas?-- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Though I'm not terribly fond of such categorizations to begin with, I was struck by the contributor's inclination to 'take offense', especially since most of the cats being reverted were supported by the articles' biographical information. But as suggested above, I am unfamiliar with Wiki policy on this. JNW (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- I know, that kind of immediate offense, quick action, and immediate stop when questioned at all is really suspicious. I already reverted one because he broke up a ref tag. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Though I'm not terribly fond of such categorizations to begin with, I was struck by the contributor's inclination to 'take offense', especially since most of the cats being reverted were supported by the articles' biographical information. But as suggested above, I am unfamiliar with Wiki policy on this. JNW (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Another "forever war"
Don't know what the right action is, but the edit war over pictures in Latin America has gotten ridiculous. An edit history should never contain
This has been going on since February. There have been some efforts by registered editors to impose some kind of sense: GDP, alphabetical, north-south, something. Nothing seems to help. A couple of anonymous editors from varying IPs keep shuffling it, and efforts to fix it just wind up shuffling it further. Kww (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not reading that messbut you can head over to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection next time. Is it just varying IPs playing around? If so, next ones I'll post a note on the talk pages and then just semi-protect the page from them. If there's some established users in that mess, I'm more hesitant to full protect. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't mean it the way it came out. Kww, summarize. Is it just the IPs? If so, I could look at the history and figure it out. Is it a few reverts a day, or are we talking silly goofy vandalism that's hard to pick up? If it's the goofy type, Latin America is properly important enough to stop that for. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Edit warring by 67.164.113.37
For a few weeks 67.164.113.67 has been removing sourced content from Hans Reiser and does not discuss changes despite being warned. Switzpaw (talk) 03:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Karmaisking - recidivist sockpuppeteer needs another block
From [this] post/admission of being a sockpuppet, it is clear that User:Socppt11 is yet another sockpuppet of User:Karmaisking (and most recently User:Lagrandebanquesucre.--Gregalton (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This user has repeatedly been uncivil and rude and I am sick and tired of it. I ask that his pattern of behavior be reviewed. He's been blocked at least a half-dozen tiems before and still there is no improvement. Diagreements can be worked out if people are reasonable, but when they are not, what to do? nelson has ised profanity directed to me and has also insulted my good-faith edits. Both of those are specific, clear-cut rule violations. I know I am not a registered user, I chose that because of privicy concerns. I still hope that my views on this will be takne seriously. Clearly the past punishment of Nelson has no affect on his behavior, in some ways it is worse than before.
72.0.36.36 (talk) 04:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I know what you mean, but you should provide specific diffs here to highlight uncivil comments that were made. Grsztalk 05:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, if there is already mediation going on, shouldn't we wait until it is completed before acting? Either way, notifying Chris and the mediator in case this just belongs there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Virgin Killer
Re. denial of editprotected
Apart from all other issues pertaining to this, I can't see why my request was denied, except that admins are afraid to deal with controversial issues.
Prior to the hysteria surrounding the press release, the article was stable.
It was protected, and happened to have the image moved down at the time;
My requests to revert have been denied even though consensus had clearly been reached.
I know that, in a few days, this will be irrelevent, but in the meantime it appears to the outside world that WP has bowed to external censorship.
-- Chzz ► 04:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
My sock case
This is about a sock case. I have no idea about who is User:Harjk. The nominator and blocked admin seem to be confused over my connection with Harjk as a check user would have showed some ‘likely’ result. I am a business man who uses a shared ip address connected with a number of computers. In my office, everyone knows that I am a wikipedian and we use WP a lot in order to get piece of valuable information. It is possible that some of the shared techies may have tracked my contributions & trying to ‘help’ me. The same incident happened when I was previously accused of sock puppet that I clearly explained to then closing admin. Anyway, I am not going to find who did it at all as long as it is not a major issue talking about my business.
About blocking, how can an admin block a well known editor without even listening from the concerned editor? The nominator and the blocked admin could have leaved a message in my talk pg or over email. It is noted that the admins decision was in hurriedly, without listening my comment. He/she should wait for a 5-6 days, before reaching to a conclusion. It was unfair and miserable from an admin who not suppose to do it, in my opinion. The nominator User:Vivin commented in the [Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Avineshjose evidence page] that, I thought it was a bit odd seeing as he had never involved himself in that particular AfD before. The statement is wrong, as I have participated in the previous nomination previous AfD, I am much interested to know the result of it. Moreover, I did not give votes anywhere where harjk had participated. Therefore, no reason for doubting me as sock. comment posted by User:avineshjose as I am blocked & unable to edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.18.136 (talk) 05:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)