Teflon Peter Christ (talk | contribs) |
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::::: Please explain in what way I "engage in a significant amount of [[WP:WL|wikilawyering]]" (and [[WP:GAMING|gaming the system]])? That's a pretty serious claim to make and one that is considered an insult if it doesn't address a specific argument. |
::::: Please explain in what way I "engage in a significant amount of [[WP:WL|wikilawyering]]" (and [[WP:GAMING|gaming the system]])? That's a pretty serious claim to make and one that is considered an insult if it doesn't address a specific argument. |
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::::: Which brings me on to this. I still don't understand exactly what my supposed violation of Wikipedia guidelines that warranted this ANI report was, any more than I was in an [[WP:NPOVD|NPOV dispute]] which I don't understand why it would warrant such an approach. In my first response to this discussion, I said so, and have said so repeatedly throughout this discussion, but I am none the wiser. Also, there's nothing wrong with giving the full story to any administrator reading this because there is no "immunity" for reporters ([[WP:SHOT]]). [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC) |
::::: Which brings me on to this. I still don't understand exactly what my supposed violation of Wikipedia guidelines that warranted this ANI report was, any more than I was in an [[WP:NPOVD|NPOV dispute]] which I don't understand why it would warrant such an approach. In my first response to this discussion, I said so, and have said so repeatedly throughout this discussion, but I am none the wiser. Also, there's nothing wrong with giving the full story to any administrator reading this because there is no "immunity" for reporters ([[WP:SHOT]]). [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::: The ''far'' more serious claim that I took ''serious'' offense to and ended up losing faith and seriousness for you was being accused of '''racism and misogyny''': To quote {{u|Ivanvector}} in the previous report: "I read isento's comment from August ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALemonade_%28Beyonc%C3%A9_album%29&type=revision&diff=968140483&oldid=968138734#Possible_OR/POV_violation this one]) criticizing a source as "{{green|just some neurotic vapid lecture about Swift "oversharing"}}", which in the next edit you described as "{{red|[isento] dismissing this article by saying "it just isn't a serious piece of commentary" because the work of a black female writer "is just some neurotic vapid lecture"}} and said it "{{red|sounds extremely misogynistic and racist}}"." Now, I was going thru a lot at the time in my life, so I was bone-headed enough to talk down to you in response, and from there, I ended up stooping to your level further, as {{u|Gwennie-nyan}} suggested. There was no legitimate reason for accusing me of that. And you never owned up to it. I don't want to be a hypocrite and assume bad-faith as to why you'd accuse me of that, or continue denying you have demonstrated a problem. So I am left with no other conclusion than it has been a mental health issue. I don't feel we need an interaction ban, but it seems from your responses that you still don't get the problem, which resigns me to leaning toward Gwennie's proposal, sad to say. [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 01:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC) |
:::::: The ''far'' more serious claim that I took ''serious'' offense to and ended up losing faith and seriousness for you was being accused of '''racism and misogyny''': To quote {{u|Ivanvector}} in the previous report: "I read isento's comment from August ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALemonade_%28Beyonc%C3%A9_album%29&type=revision&diff=968140483&oldid=968138734#Possible_OR/POV_violation this one]) criticizing a source as "{{green|just some neurotic vapid lecture about Swift "oversharing"}}", which in the next edit you described as "{{red|[isento] dismissing this article by saying "it just isn't a serious piece of commentary" because the work of a black female writer "is just some neurotic vapid lecture"}} and said it "{{red|sounds extremely misogynistic and racist}}"." When I warned you about it in August as a personal attack, you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABgkc4444&type=revision&diff=972716466&oldid=972569146 doubled-down on the claim]: {{red|"Calling out your racism and misogyny is not [[WP:WIAPA|considered a personal attack]], because there is evidence of this behaviour"}} Now, I was going thru a lot at the time in my life, so I was bone-headed enough to talk down to you in response, and from there, I ended up stooping to your level further, as {{u|Gwennie-nyan}} suggested. There was no legitimate reason for accusing me of that. And you never owned up to it. I don't want to be a hypocrite and assume bad-faith as to why you'd accuse me of that, or continue denying you have demonstrated a problem. So I am left with no other conclusion than it has been a mental health issue. I don't feel we need an interaction ban, but it seems from your responses that you still don't get the problem, which resigns me to leaning toward Gwennie's proposal, sad to say. [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 01:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Resolution Proposal === |
=== Resolution Proposal === |
Revision as of 01:09, 20 December 2020
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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Saflieni's personal attacks and other disruption
- In Praise of Blood (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Saflieni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Buidhe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- WP:AN3#User:Buidhe reported by User:Saflieni (Result: impasse--no good reason to block one editor but not the other)
- Talk:In Praise of Blood#Reception section and the dialog below it.
A few days ago, Drmies suggested that I to go to ANI due to this editor's behavior.[1] I try to avoid dramaboards but the disruption has continued so I feel I have no other option.
- Personal attacks: They repeatedly accuse other editors of lying, eg. "Stop making things up. It's clear that you're not interested in creating a balanced Wikipage at all ..."[2] "Drmies condones every lie you and buidhe have been telling about me and about others. What's your agenda?"[3] (Sadly, that is not the complete list). Even an uninvolved editor politely asking them to be civil, without referring to any past incident, results in the accusation of "pollute my Talk page with false accusations"[4]
- They also seem to have issues with WP:CIR, as Drmies pointed out here[5] and here[6]
- There is also an issue of WP:OWN behavior, implying that other users need to get Saflieni's permission to make edits: "I have asked you to discuss further edits on the Talk Page. You didn't."[7] and "Restored previous version. The edits were not agreed upon."[8]
Earlier today Drmies stated, "you [Saflieni] are contributing nothing at all to this discussion or to this article"[9] which pretty much sums it up. Despite multiple warnings and requests to change their behavior,[10][11] it has gone on. Because Saflieni has become a net negative on this topic and has prevented other editors from moving forward with improvements to the article, I am proposing an indefinite topic ban from the topic of In Praise of Blood and its author, Judi Rever. (t · c) buidhe 11:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- FYI: Drmies went ballistic [12] when I tried to correct an error of judgment by using the phrase "you are wrong" before explaining the misunderstanding [13], referring to [14] [15]. It went downhill from there [16] and I've been insulted several times, him talking down at me: "As for your 'question', you can ask it until the sun goes down," and, without considering my explanations, telling me: "you may not be competent enough in working in a collaborative environment". Then when I complained on his Talk page about his jumping to conclusions and unfriendly attitude, he accused me of "gaslighting" [17]. This is not the conduct one expects from an administrator, according to [18]. But he continued on [19] where Drmies suggested a consensus on a disputed phrase by ignoring my input on what the literature says [20] and ignoring my suggestion to read the relevant section in the source. [21]. It went on by Drmies siding with the other two by deliberately misunderstanding my objections to HouseOfChange using an unverifiable twitter gossip to discredit a source and he continued to insult me by dismissing my elaborate efforts to explain content as only adding a lot of bytes [22].
- As for you: take a look in the mirror. While I was trying to edit the article based on information from reliable sources you were consistently reverting them, accusing me of misleading, dismissing an expert source as "not notable", repeatedly accusing me of POV, suggesting in the edit summary that edits discussed on Talk were "unexplained removals", "BLP violations" that weren't and finally outright edit warring [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28][29] [30] [31] [32]. I went out of my way to discuss content. Even a couple of factual mistakes I corrected, which were very easy to verify, took multiple discussions and unpleasantries to get accepted by you. And then HouseOfChange came along, not contributing but simply deleting my edits without discussing on the Talk page [33] [34] [35] [36], and the story started all over again. He had already flagged my edits as "this page has come under attack" and he responded to my call for a discussion by immediately accusing me of edit warring and biased editing [37]. This attitude never changed. Both now started to attack, accusing me of pushing my opinion, of misquoting the literature, of taking stabs at book reviewers, e.g. [38]; [39]; [40]. In the latter diff they lie that I had changed the text of one of Buidhe's edits to attack a reviewer, but the history makes it clear that I never touched it. It goes on and on. After some of my edits had been reverted thirteen times the page was put under protection, but I haven't seen any positive attitudes from any of you towards resolving the dispute. Saflieni (talk) 11:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I've been insulted several times, which is not the conduct one expects from an administrator
You are expected to provide diffs to back up any accusations you choose to make on this forum. Otherwise they are likely to be treated as groundless. (t · c) buidhe 12:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Supporting Buidhe, Saflieni is wasting the time and patience of other editors who want to improve the article In Praise of Blood.
- He expands criticism of the book, removes positive comments, removes material that supports claims in the book, and reverts multiple edits by others to keep his own POV predominant. Some diffs: (greatly expand criticism from one source) (remove positive quote) (remove material that supports claims made in the book) (revert multiple edits claiming "due to biased uncooperative editor")
- Instead of focusing on improving the article in a collegial way, he attacks those who disagree with him. For example, "More interesting is why Drmies condones every lie you and buidhe have been telling about me and about others. What's your agenda?"[41]
- Even a simple talk page edit request discussion, where both Buidhe and Drmies agreed with my request to remove one phrase from a sentence, and not one person agreed with him that the phrase should remain, he first generates walls of text and then does not recognize the consensus of all other editors.[42]
The book In Praise of Blood is controversial. The article about it "must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias." This goal has not been advanced by a WP:POVFIGHTER working to introduce multiple examples of people referring to its author as a genocide denier, a claim the article now parrots four times, with a single pushback by Rever saying she isn't. (Her book, whose subtitle is "The Crimes of the Rwandan Patriotic Front," focuses on crimes of the RPF rather than on the 1994 genocide in Rwanda by Hutus killing Tutsis. But the book, in fact, devotes some space to confirming that the 1994 genocide against Tutsis did occur and was a terrible thing.) What the current Wikipedia article doesn't include is the fact that these "specialists" are using the expression "genocide denial" in a way that does not in fact mean denying a genocide-- they intend a specialized meaning that Saflieni describes on the Talk Page: "Rever's book fits Stanley Cohen's definition of implicatory genocide denial." [43] Now to me the meaning of "implicatory genocide denial" should be made clear if the article wants to accuse Rever of it four times. Many people have called Hillary Clinton the "butcher of Benghazi," but if the article Hillary Clinton included four examples of people calling her that, surely WP:BLP would give clarification beyond "Clinton says she is not the butcher of Benghazi because she did not ever own a butcher shop." HouseOfChange (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm reminded of a little wrinkle in my RfA, where I got two opposes because I wouldn't block editor X after some ANI thread or something--one from the editor who wanted editor X blocked, and one from editor X. The current timesink started with an ANEW report (and the attendant retaliatory report), which I closed saying, essentially, that there was an impasse and that there was no good reason to block one and not the other. Saflieni can't let anything go, and continued their protests/comments/insults for days--the same MO they're using on that talk page. I am not quite sure where I went "ballistic"; I did ban them from my talk page because of their incessant whining. I am convinced, by now, that they are a net negative. Nothing good can happen to that article as long as they're around, with their accusations of BLP violations, libel, and what not, with their continued harping and producing walls of texts, with their bad-faith accusations (including that buidhe and House are like tag-teaming and must be in cahoots).
After I closed that ANEW report, and after I responded to a half dozen more of Saflieni's comments in that thread, I took to the article talk page because I felt that there were mistakes made by both parties, in terms of what reviews could and could not do, etc. In that same comment I mentioned that I was not speaking or acting as an administrator, so that Safliene keeps referring to me in this regard as an administrator is really just gaslighting, an attempt to stack the deck. That's why I specifically asked for EdJohnston to look at an edit request (Saflieni misrepresents a quote from a review, as you can see on the talk page). Again, the only thing I've done as an admin is not block Saflieni or their opponents; in hindsight I regret that since there was copious evidence of edit warring, but I thought that they were able to work things out in a collaborative way. Anyone who looks over my comments at ANEW and at the article talk page will see that I have been plenty critical of buidhe and House--but they, to a much greater extent than Saflieni, acknowledge that this is a collaborative project. Saflieni needs to be blocked from that article and the talk page, at the very least, and they deserve a block for disruption and personal attacks. Drmies (talk) 17:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- The problem which is central to this discussion, and I have tried to point this out from the start, is a knowledge gap. I've been accused of misquoting and POV etc. by two editors and an administrator who have not read most of the relevant documents, such as the book and several other sources. They treat a couple of layman's reviews as authoritive (because those they have read) and are skeptical about the majority view among specialized scholars, researchers and investigative journalists with decades of experience in the field, not to mention independent eye witnesses. Regarding the Epstein dispute, I have twice requested Drmies to read the relevant section of the journal article from which I have selected the quote. It's open access [44] so anyone can check if I misquote or misrepresent the author by simply reading it without bias. There's no excuse to keep accusing me even here of "Saflieni misrepresents a quote from a review, as you can see on the talk page," based on nothing but an uninformed guess and then tell me I'm not cooperative. There still are sixteen references in the article to the reviews by Epstein and Garrett, and their praise is also still there. All I did was remove a few erroneous and contentious remarks and added a nuancing quote from a prominent scholar. I can't believe the fuzz and the hatred that these and similar honest edits have generated. And I find the highlighting of my responses to the endless reverts and obstructions and insults, which I admit should not have reflected my growing irritation the way they did, to be one-sided and unfair. Saflieni (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Despite its length, the section Talk:In_Praise_of_Blood#Edit_request is clear enough: the article contains a highly critical remark about one reviewer--but leaving out the rest of the comment, which indicates that the reviewer does need to be taken seriously. I don't know why Saflieni is claiming that somehow this is difficult: the partial quote is a misrepresentation, and "uninformed guess" is just nonsense. FWIW both Saflieni and House are very, very wordy, but at least House doesn't constantly badger and accuse people. Drmies (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's not highly critical, it simply states a true fact. That whole section in Caplan's article is highly critical of Epstein [45], which is why I chose this neutral quote. Let someone else decide here. For HouseOfChange I have only this to say: I have invited you several times to go over my edits together, here for instance [46], so we could discuss them. But you have refused my offer. Now you bring those issues up again, not understanding that for instance Bisesero isn't mentioned anywhere in the book, so I removed that reference, or that Garrett's bit about witnesses at the ICTR is erroneous because Rever didn't write that and the correct version of the information is outdated, which would require adding extra information. And so on. But you all rather speculate about my ulterior motives. There's nothing I can do about that. Saflieni (talk) 20:56, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Here's Saflieni's MO again: deflect and sidetrack. Introduce extra extraneous material that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and flood the page. Drmies (talk) 23:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- My "MO" was to reply to the diffs in HouseOfChange's comment, this one especially: [47]. And I've inserted a diff which explains Caplan's section "Rever has a fan" to make it easy for you. Here it is again: [48]. You've been accusing me of personal attacks and other misconduct but it's the same as with the other two: the pot calling the kettle black over and over. Saflieni (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I added some links to the head of this report. This is a confusing AN3 case. At the start of the case, some admins might have considered User:Buidhe and User:Saflieni to be equally in the wrong , but in my opinion Saflieni has been digging the hole deeper by his ongoing conduct. (The page is now under full protection for a week). Though Buidhe may have some good arguments, this ANI complaint (which he opened) is so murky that I am doubtful ANI will be able to do much with it. If anyone who is concerned with the article would like suggestions of how to resolve the dispute, please post on User talk:EdJohnston since I do have some ideas. EdJohnston (talk) 20:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- I do hope that whoever decides on this case will check if the diffs presented by the plaintiffs really support their allegations and context, especially the ones in Drmies' comments. EdJohnston: When information is rejected before it's been considered this is not acceptable to anyone. You were there when I presented my argument on the Talk page which was then ignored and not taken into account when the "consensus" was reached. It was ignored again each of the three times I repeated it, such as here: [49]. On this page I'm still falsely accused of misquoting which is a serious accusation so I repeated my argument three times again with links to the source. See what happened. This has been the general attitude on that Talk page. Am I digging holes or are people digging them for me? Saflieni (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Speaking as an uninvolved party: You're digging holes. Replying to every comment here looks more bludgeoning than helpful. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:27, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm under attack from different sides but I shouldn't defend myself. Brilliant. Well, if nobody's prepared to look at the content of my arguments and it's all about how things "look" I can see where this is heading. You won't find me here again. Saflieni (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- The problem which is central to this discussion, and I have tried to point this out from the start, is a knowledge gap. I've been accused of misquoting and POV etc. by two editors and an administrator who have not read most of the relevant documents, such as the book and several other sources. They treat a couple of layman's reviews as authoritive (because those they have read) and are skeptical about the majority view among specialized scholars, researchers and investigative journalists with decades of experience in the field, not to mention independent eye witnesses. Regarding the Epstein dispute, I have twice requested Drmies to read the relevant section of the journal article from which I have selected the quote. It's open access [44] so anyone can check if I misquote or misrepresent the author by simply reading it without bias. There's no excuse to keep accusing me even here of "Saflieni misrepresents a quote from a review, as you can see on the talk page," based on nothing but an uninformed guess and then tell me I'm not cooperative. There still are sixteen references in the article to the reviews by Epstein and Garrett, and their praise is also still there. All I did was remove a few erroneous and contentious remarks and added a nuancing quote from a prominent scholar. I can't believe the fuzz and the hatred that these and similar honest edits have generated. And I find the highlighting of my responses to the endless reverts and obstructions and insults, which I admit should not have reflected my growing irritation the way they did, to be one-sided and unfair. Saflieni (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I am willingly working to get agreement on a neutral version of the article (and grateful to EdJohnston's help.) But Saflieni does not hear people's objections to his behavior at the article and on the talk page. So I hope we can wait before closing this. I am no longer asking that he be blocked from the talk page, where he does make some good suggestions, but I want to see better behavior in his actual editing of the article. HouseOfChange (talk) 19:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- requesting a block I have tried to be collegial, even offering to replace my own draft of "Content" with his (subject to some consensus-based edits) but Saflieni has not moved on from rejecting ideas that change even a phrase of his own preferred content. After days of his uncivil attacks, with edit summaries like "do not pretend to know better than senior scholars please", "Contradicting is not discussing", "Please read the book properly", and most recently "No censoring essential information please," I request that somebody block him for a week. My goal here is to improve articles, not fend off accusations on talk pages. HouseOfChange (talk) 16:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Need some help here: To overcome the endless quarrels I have drafted a better version of the Wikipedia page that is neutral, captures the book's content, and fairly describes the responses by experts and non-experts, positive and critical, leaving the last word to the author.[50] On request I have inserted references to the bookpages where the author makes claims which are contested by the other two editors. However, HouseOfChange has come out of the closet as a superfan of In Praise of Blood and its author Judi Rever. We're still not getting anywhere because of it. HoC uses polarizing phrases such as "anti-Rever militants" to describe the experts who criticize the book (senior scholars, reputable researchers and renowned investigative journalists).[51] And even though HoC is a layman having trouble understanding academic texts and the contents of this book, he keeps pushing his personal view even though the author herself contradicts it, such as on the double genocide thesis.[52][53][54][55] HoC dismisses the expert's arguments as "RPF talking points"[56] and calls experts who discuss the author's fringe theories "her angriest critics", accuses them of engaging in "groupthink" and "cherry picking", all to suggest they speak on behalf of the Rwandan government rather than analysing the book on the basis of their research and the scholarly literature.[57]. I have tried to explain everything as best I could, latest here [58] and [59]. However, HoC has now appointed himself to be the editor-in-chief of the article and proceeds to edit the article without consensus, circumventing NPOV by moving non-expert opinions to the Reference section,[60] and stealing bits and pieces from my draft that benefit his POV in the process.[61] Because we had agreed to try to make a new, neutral version and not edit without consensus,[62] I have reverted the changes that were made without prior consent, hoping that a neutral administrator will step in and rescue my efforts to create an article that is factually correct, neutral, fair, and gives due weight to the majority view amongst experts. I don't want this to backfire again. Wikipedia shouldn't be used for promoting fringe theories. Thank you.Saflieni (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saflieni has a content dispute with me and with Buidhe. We have tried to resolve it on the talk page. Saflieni edit-wars to focus the article, including its Contents section, on controversy about the 1994 Rwandan genocide. We say, the book's topic is a decade of (alleged) war crimes starting in 1990. We do not dispute that criticism of Rever's controversial claims belongs in the "Reception" section.
- Re the current complaint: as EdJohnston suggested, first I and later Saflieni created drafts for a new "Contents" section. Saflieni has filed this complaint in response to my putting into the article a version of HIS draft (with citations added), calling this "stealing bits and pieces from my draft without permission". So now after four days of work, trying to compromise and build consensus, Saflieni has reverted to the version before any change to the "Contents". This article could use a few more editors, if anyone's willing. HouseOfChange (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I doubt that User:Saflieni is going to win this argument on the basis of his personal charm. His latest remark to HouseOfChange is:
Besides, the point is that you shouldn't be editing this page without explicit consensus. What you did was badly written, biased, and showed no understanding of the subject again. Why don't you find another, less demanding project?
[63].
- It doesn't seems as though Saflieni's position enjoys support from anyone else. (So much for his demand for 'consensus'). He seems to want the author of the book to be considered a Rwandan genocide denier. The other main participants in this discussion are User:HouseOfChange and User:Buidhe. When HouseOfChange took some excerpts from Salfieni's version and added them to the article, Saflieni objected to this 'stealing bits and pieces from my draft without permission'. Does he know about the copyright release that appears under the edit window whenever you hit 'Save'? Saflieni considers HouseOfChange's work to be 'badly written and biased'. He says that HoC is a 'layman having trouble understanding academic texts and the contents of this book'. If Saflieni isn't able to edit neutrally about Rwanda and to avoid personalizing disputes, I question if he should be participating on this article. Either a ban of Saflieni or another period of full protection seem to be the main options to consider. EdJohnston (talk) 19:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Is anybody ever going to look at the content in this dispute? We're discussing a controversial book about genocide, show some respect please. Do you want to get the correct information into Wikipedia or turn it into a fanclub page for fringe theories? I doubt I would get treated like this if I was in a dispute over Andrew Wakefield's book with two anti-vaxxers... Saflieni (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saflieni: looking at Buidhe's userpage I can imagine few editors less likely to dismiss the seriousness of genocide. But thanks for yet another demonstration that you are too emotionally-invested to try to get consensus on content, so instead you attack other editors. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Really, after all the hours I've put in trying to educate you on this subject, which is a complete mystery to you, you have the audacity to say this. My point is that you would need at least some basic knowledge to be able to recognize the limits of your competence. You lack that basic knowledge. That is not an attack. That's the reality which has been at the heart of this dispute from the beginning.Saflieni (talk) 22:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saflieni: looking at Buidhe's userpage I can imagine few editors less likely to dismiss the seriousness of genocide. But thanks for yet another demonstration that you are too emotionally-invested to try to get consensus on content, so instead you attack other editors. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Is anybody ever going to look at the content in this dispute? We're discussing a controversial book about genocide, show some respect please. Do you want to get the correct information into Wikipedia or turn it into a fanclub page for fringe theories? I doubt I would get treated like this if I was in a dispute over Andrew Wakefield's book with two anti-vaxxers... Saflieni (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I doubt that User:Saflieni is going to win this argument on the basis of his personal charm. His latest remark to HouseOfChange is:
- I'm getting mixed messages here, not helpful ones. I have again read WP:NPOV, WP:NPOVT, WP:FRINGE, WP:NOR, and WP:RS, but don't see which guidelines I violate in [64]. It seems to me that I follow them almost to the letter. On the other hand, I can't say the same of the Buidhe and HoC versions. Could a neutral administrator who is not exclusively focused on my likeability please discuss this discrepancy with me, away from the current 'block and ban'-debates preferably? Thank you. And could Buidhe and HoC for once refrain from commenting, please? Saflieni (talk) 11:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- This ANI was filed long before Saflieni wrote those drafts. Nobody files an ANI for a content dispute or "likeability." Look instead at his POV-pushing at one edit request, filed when the article was "fully protected." I asked to remove ONE PHRASE. Buidhe and Drmies agreed with me that the phrase was misleading and POV. Only Saflieni argued to keep the phrase. What happened next (as the meme-pushers say) will shock you... Dec 4Dec 5Dec 10 HouseOfChange (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is actually a good demonstration of my point. You were violating a Wikipedia guideline, as explained here [65] : "Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value." However, to get your way you managed to convince two administrators of the falsehood that I was using a partial quote to mislead people (see the earlier discussion above). Had they (Drmies and EdJohnston) bothered to verify the allegation as I requested, they and everybody else would've known better. Saflieni (talk) 19:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- It is not "concealing relevant information" to remove inaccurate well-poisoning-- yet you still are demanding that we keep it, verbatim, a phrase that does not fairly represent either Caplan or Epstein. In 2017 alone both The Guardian and The Nation published long articles about Kagame and the RPF written by Helen Epstein.[1][2] Caplan also expressed respect for Epstein's past work, even if he was apparently ignorant of her Rwanda credentials. HouseOfChange (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not repeating that whole discussion. Suffice it to say that Epstein is not an expert on the subject but a journalist who is notable for something very different: her work on HIV/AIDS. Credibility depends on whether the expert's disciplinary specialization matches the topic at hand. [66] A couple of newspaper articles don't change that. One isn't even about the subject, the other isn't very accurate. What's troubling is that you try to elevate non-experts to the status of experts because they praise the book while you spend a lot of time on the Talk page trying to discredit specialized scholars who criticize the book, some administrators supporting that. Saflieni (talk) 01:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- It is not "concealing relevant information" to remove inaccurate well-poisoning-- yet you still are demanding that we keep it, verbatim, a phrase that does not fairly represent either Caplan or Epstein. In 2017 alone both The Guardian and The Nation published long articles about Kagame and the RPF written by Helen Epstein.[1][2] Caplan also expressed respect for Epstein's past work, even if he was apparently ignorant of her Rwanda credentials. HouseOfChange (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is actually a good demonstration of my point. You were violating a Wikipedia guideline, as explained here [65] : "Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value." However, to get your way you managed to convince two administrators of the falsehood that I was using a partial quote to mislead people (see the earlier discussion above). Had they (Drmies and EdJohnston) bothered to verify the allegation as I requested, they and everybody else would've known better. Saflieni (talk) 19:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- This ANI was filed long before Saflieni wrote those drafts. Nobody files an ANI for a content dispute or "likeability." Look instead at his POV-pushing at one edit request, filed when the article was "fully protected." I asked to remove ONE PHRASE. Buidhe and Drmies agreed with me that the phrase was misleading and POV. Only Saflieni argued to keep the phrase. What happened next (as the meme-pushers say) will shock you... Dec 4Dec 5Dec 10 HouseOfChange (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
The topic in dispute was your advocacy for the phrase "noting that Epstein had no great credentials as a Rwanda expert." Nobody asked to describe her as a Rwanda scholar. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:45, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Epstein, Helen C (12 Sep 2017). "America's secret role in the Rwandan genocide". The Guardian. Retrieved 11 December 2020.
When Rwanda's ethnic bonfires roared back to life in the days after the RPF invasion, Habyarimana and his circle seem to have sensed a political opportunity: now they could distract the disaffected Hutu masses from their own abuses by reawakening fears of the 'demon Tutsis', who would soon become convenient scapegoats to divert attention from profound socioeconomic injustices.
- ^ Gatebuke, Claude; Epstein, Helen C (28 July 2017). "Rwanda's Elections and the Myth of Women's Empowerment". The Nation. Retrieved 11 December 2020.
Victoire Ingabire is serving a 15-year prison sentence for 'divisionism.' Her crime was daring to mention that there were Hutu and Twa victims of the Rwandan civil war, as well as Tutsis, and calling for reconciliation and recognition of all victims of Rwanda's past, regardless of ethnic background.
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EdJohnston, I cannot praise you enough for doing what you tried to do here--and yet you seem to have reached the same conclusion I did: the community and the article would benefit from Saflieni's absence. I believe I proposed a topic ban from this article and the talk page before, and I'm wondering how many administrators would have the patience to go through all this wikilawyering, all these misrepresentations, all this chatter before hitting the block button. I get the feeling that you are so invested in this that you are not going to push that button, or impose that topic ban, and as you know I have stated I wouldn't act as an admin here. I think we should post a note on WP:AN asking for a totally uninvolved admin to have a look at this (we'll need to make them a sandwich) and decide on it. Thank you for your effort. Drmies (talk) 00:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Great, thank you. I've been asking for a neutral admin for a month, haven't I? Someone less judgmental and more on topic please. Saflieni (talk) 02:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- This ANI thread was opened to address User:Saflieni's personal attacks. I'm planning to warn User:Saflieni that they may be blocked if they use any more ad hominem language in their discussions about In Praise of Blood. That would mean they would be blocked if they re-state any of the criticisms seen above:
- 'My point is that you would need at least some basic knowledge to be able to recognize the limits of your competence.'
- 'The problem which is central to this discussion, and I have tried to point this out from the start, is a knowledge gap'
- 'HouseOfChange has come out of the closet as a superfan of In Praise of Blood'
- 'HoC is a layman having trouble understanding academic texts and the contents of this book'
- 'Why don't you find another, less demanding project?'
- I'll also let User:Saflieni know that if he expects admins to have read the book in question before they take any action on this matter, he will be disappointed. We don't need to read the book to determine whether editors are discussing in good faith. EdJohnston (talk) 02:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Reading your threat, one might believe that I made these comments out of the blue for the sole purpose of hurting someone's feelings, instead of reaching a conclusion after a month of fruitless debate in which I've repeatedly been called a liar with a hidden agenda in different wordings - which is fine by you apparently - and having each of my arguments and explanations contradicted with uninformed assumptions. Not to mention their demeaning language regarding respectable scientists, in attempts to frame them as politically motivated "militants" - also fine apparently. And in between I'm getting more insults from Drmies (look at all the things he wrote on this page) and then you despite my many requests to check the information before judging me. Did you ever check the truth of: "The partial quote is a misrepresentation."? How many times did I ask? And it only takes a few seconds to check that one, quicker than writing this threat. Does anyone care about the actual subject of the dispute? Apparently not. Shame! Saflieni (talk) 03:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Last word on this. One of the mixed messages I'm getting is that the repeated false accusations against me constitute harrassment, according to this: [67] - "It can be seen as a personal attack if tendentious editing is alleged without clear evidence that the other's action meets the criteria set forth on this page, and unfounded accusations may constitute harassment if done repeatedly." Yet my calls to put a stop to it are not heeded because they make me a nuissance.
- Reading your threat, one might believe that I made these comments out of the blue for the sole purpose of hurting someone's feelings, instead of reaching a conclusion after a month of fruitless debate in which I've repeatedly been called a liar with a hidden agenda in different wordings - which is fine by you apparently - and having each of my arguments and explanations contradicted with uninformed assumptions. Not to mention their demeaning language regarding respectable scientists, in attempts to frame them as politically motivated "militants" - also fine apparently. And in between I'm getting more insults from Drmies (look at all the things he wrote on this page) and then you despite my many requests to check the information before judging me. Did you ever check the truth of: "The partial quote is a misrepresentation."? How many times did I ask? And it only takes a few seconds to check that one, quicker than writing this threat. Does anyone care about the actual subject of the dispute? Apparently not. Shame! Saflieni (talk) 03:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- This ANI thread was opened to address User:Saflieni's personal attacks. I'm planning to warn User:Saflieni that they may be blocked if they use any more ad hominem language in their discussions about In Praise of Blood. That would mean they would be blocked if they re-state any of the criticisms seen above:
- Ok, having said that, I'm leaving the following diffs behind for a neutral uninvolved administrator to look at, which will show that from the start I was trying to clear the article of elements that were not conforming with Wikipedia policies, esp. the ones regarding fringe theories, due weight, accuracy, NPOV, and so on, and that I made efforts to replace them with relevant information from RS: [68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79]
- And the discussion about the double genocide theme of the book that led up to the incompetence remarks: [80][81][82][83][84][85][86][87] and: [88] Saflieni (talk) 11:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I don't see the need to drag this out any further. Its quite clear Saflieni is WP:NOTHERE, plus the WP:NPA violations. I'm confident everyone here knows what I'm gesturing. Jerm (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Jerm No offense but if I'm WP:NOTHERE how do you explain the fact that I've created a (proposed) better version of the entire article in my sandbox? [89]. One that is neutral, balanced, contains all the different viewpoints according to due weight, takes into account the wishes of the other two contributors, and accurately but modestly cautions Wikipedia readers that the book promotes a fringe theory. Please note that on this page I have already admitted to having inappropriately vented my irritation. I have no problem apologizing for that. I'm only asking to take into account the context: the baiting (not to excuse my response to it), the pattern of reverting my contributions and contradicting my arguments before I eventually began restoring my edits, the POV, BLP and COI accusations I get each time I insert scholarly literature, when I correct errors, and so on. The unsubstantiated accusations of gaslighting, misquoting, wikilawyering, not cooperating, biased editing, etc.[90] by an administrator are not very helping to resolve the dispute, which is between two editors who have read a book they don't fully comprehend (or a few reviews) and have been convinced by its argument, and another editor who tries to give due weight to the majority view among scientists and historians. Saflieni (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saflieni You’re more focused on content rather than your own behavior. ANI is not meant to resolve content disputes. ANI is meant for resolving behavior issues of an editor, and you have plenty of behavior issues. You have been registered for many years, but despite that fact, you are oblivious to the behavior policies of Wikipedia. But then again, you’ve barely made any edits since being registered. The community won’t be taking a loss if you were indefinitely blocked. Jerm (talk) 14:41, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Jerm I've acknowledged that I've been too direct in my language during the Talk page discussions. I believe I just apologized for that. But I don't agree with the accusations of real misconduct such as false charges of dishonesty and disruption. I am not guilty of those. False accusations are against Wikipedia policy, and I believe that gives me the right to request that someone checks the facts beyond a superficial glance. Anyone can make accusations but that doesn't mean they're true or that the examples aren't taken out of context. Besides, I'm singled out as the bad guy here when the other editors' behaviour (and Drmies') hasn't been any better. I can list dozens of examples of aggressive attitude, personal attacks and false dishonesty claims by HouseOfChange alone, not just against me but also against reputable scientists who have written something HoC doesn't appreciate. ANI shouldn't be a tool for editors to get rid of dissenting voices so they can own an article. I have edited other Wikipedia projects btw (and have a job). Not everything is what it seems from the outside. Saflieni (talk) 16:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Aside from Saflieni's contempt for everyone else, there are two problems. One is that he is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but to do battle against "the campaign by some editors on Wikipedia - some of whom are self-declared anti RPF activists - to introduce unscientific and sometimes demonstrably false content to pages related to the genocide and the wars in Africa's Great Lakes region." (emphasis mine[91] On his userpage also: he is a Rwanda genocide-expert coming here to RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The other problem is that, despite his best efforts, he can't write impartially. E.g., his draft for the article, which he wants to use verbatim is full of POV. Saflieni is correct that his POV is that of the majority of people who write about the Rwanda genocide. But his emotional investment in that POV causes repeated problems. He should not be writing about the RPF or Rwanda in Wikipedia. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- And the tsunami of false accusations keeps rolling in. Saflieni (talk) 17:15, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Aside from Saflieni's contempt for everyone else, there are two problems. One is that he is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but to do battle against "the campaign by some editors on Wikipedia - some of whom are self-declared anti RPF activists - to introduce unscientific and sometimes demonstrably false content to pages related to the genocide and the wars in Africa's Great Lakes region." (emphasis mine[91] On his userpage also: he is a Rwanda genocide-expert coming here to RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The other problem is that, despite his best efforts, he can't write impartially. E.g., his draft for the article, which he wants to use verbatim is full of POV. Saflieni is correct that his POV is that of the majority of people who write about the Rwanda genocide. But his emotional investment in that POV causes repeated problems. He should not be writing about the RPF or Rwanda in Wikipedia. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Jerm I've acknowledged that I've been too direct in my language during the Talk page discussions. I believe I just apologized for that. But I don't agree with the accusations of real misconduct such as false charges of dishonesty and disruption. I am not guilty of those. False accusations are against Wikipedia policy, and I believe that gives me the right to request that someone checks the facts beyond a superficial glance. Anyone can make accusations but that doesn't mean they're true or that the examples aren't taken out of context. Besides, I'm singled out as the bad guy here when the other editors' behaviour (and Drmies') hasn't been any better. I can list dozens of examples of aggressive attitude, personal attacks and false dishonesty claims by HouseOfChange alone, not just against me but also against reputable scientists who have written something HoC doesn't appreciate. ANI shouldn't be a tool for editors to get rid of dissenting voices so they can own an article. I have edited other Wikipedia projects btw (and have a job). Not everything is what it seems from the outside. Saflieni (talk) 16:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saflieni You’re more focused on content rather than your own behavior. ANI is not meant to resolve content disputes. ANI is meant for resolving behavior issues of an editor, and you have plenty of behavior issues. You have been registered for many years, but despite that fact, you are oblivious to the behavior policies of Wikipedia. But then again, you’ve barely made any edits since being registered. The community won’t be taking a loss if you were indefinitely blocked. Jerm (talk) 14:41, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
@Saflieni: And the PAs against other editors keep rolling in. 10 edits on December 18--here are 3:
- You're still avoiding a sensible discussion of my draft and are both trying to side-track me again..[92]
- The unsubstantiated accusations ..by an administrator are not very helping to resolve the dispute, which is between [Saflieni and] two editors who have read a book they don't fully comprehend[93] (Drmies is the target of this and a wikilink to Wikipedia:WikiBullying#False_accusations
- I'm talking about your tendentious remarks...This is the kind of personal attacks and allegations that I've been getting from the other two editors .. and is not something I expect from the admin.[94] (EdJohnston is targeted here)
But not one edit today (so far) aimed at improving the article. HouseOfChange (talk) 20:03, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Having fun, HouseOfChange? Why don't you tell these folks how you've been searching on Twitter, looking for dirt on a reseacher in your attempts to discredit a peer reviewed journal article you didn't like. That's how Wikipedia is built nowadays. Mud slinging and framing people to get what you want. Saflieni (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
A recap of the case from my perspective and then I'll leave you all to it: I came to the article, which is about a controversial book/fringe theory, five weeks ago to assist the creator because I'm knowledgeable about the subject and had noticed factual errors and misrepresented sources. They rejected my input, reverted my edits time and again, refused to cooperate, and continued to add more erroneous content. When I insisted on cleaning up the article they ran to the Noticeboards to discredit me. And look where we are now. Nothing's changed except now there are two editors unschooled in this subject but with an illusory superiority bias, knowing everything better than even the author of the book herself, not tolerating dissenting voices, pushing their POV because their two to one majority, according to the administrator, means consensus. Meanwhile this mob mentality [95] is developing so I guess there's nothing more I can say or do than to refer to the POV Railroading, False accusations, Misrepresentation, Wikihounding, and other bullying tactics employed here.[96] Saflieni (talk) 07:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
See also: Filing of this ANI and WP:IDHT. HouseOfChange (talk) 11:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Don't forget: WP:CIR e.g. "avoid editing in areas where their lack of skill and/or knowledge causes them to create significant errors for others to clean up." And HouseOfChange please read the parts of WP:IDHT which apply to your own behaviour, such as: "repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits," by dismissing my sincere efforts to explain content and start a dialogue about the edits as "walls of text." I will further comment on your Talk page because I really hope we could stop the endless back and forths over here. Thank you. Saflieni (talk) 00:55, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Topic ban violated?
- Tillman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
As far as I know, User:Tillman is topic-banned for the topic of climate change. Is he allowed to do this?
Not the first time this year either: [97]. And User:JzG warned him about it: User_talk:Tillman#Warning --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Back in 2015 User:Tillman was banned indefinitely from the climate change topic per this entry in DSLOG. EdJohnston (talk) 16:16, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- But the WP:BANEX exception applies when there was an "obvious violation of the policy about biographies of living persons". The phrase "not a climate scientist" (with earlier additional words like "by training" removed) was inserted in the lead in late 2019, later removed and re-inserted at least three times, most recently re-inserted by Hob Gadling. Since lacking formal training specifically in climate science is not the same as not being a climate scientist, this was at most a good-faith miscalculation of what would be obvious to others. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Irrelevant Wikilawyering. Happer "has specialized in the study of atomic physics, optics and spectroscopy." He is not only "not a climate scientist by training", he has never done any climate science. The exception does not apply, since pointing out obvious truths is not a "violation of the policy about biographies of living persons", let alone an obvious one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Obvious truths? Oh here we go... - The Bushranger One ping only 20:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think this means that I can start putting "He's obviously not a rocket scientist" into BLPs without getting into trouble. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Only those BLPs which are about people who are employed as rocket scientists in spite of lacking the qualification. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Please note that Prof Happer is a distinguished, prize-winning physicist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Happer#Honors. Your comparison is out of line. Arguably, borderline slander for your preferred lede. --Pete Tillman (talk) 07:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Only those BLPs which are about people who are employed as rocket scientists in spite of lacking the qualification. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think this means that I can start putting "He's obviously not a rocket scientist" into BLPs without getting into trouble. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Obvious truths? Oh here we go... - The Bushranger One ping only 20:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
.But the WP:BANEX exception applies when there was an "obvious violation of the policy about biographies of living persons".
- That exception is for things like "Joe Smith is a pedophile." without citation. It is not a "get out of topic ban" for any contested statement regarding a person. Tillman should not have touched this article for anything short of clear vandalism or damaging BLP violations. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed, the idea that BANEX applies here is ridiculous. --JBL (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Irrelevant Wikilawyering. Happer "has specialized in the study of atomic physics, optics and spectroscopy." He is not only "not a climate scientist by training", he has never done any climate science. The exception does not apply, since pointing out obvious truths is not a "violation of the policy about biographies of living persons", let alone an obvious one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- But the WP:BANEX exception applies when there was an "obvious violation of the policy about biographies of living persons". The phrase "not a climate scientist" (with earlier additional words like "by training" removed) was inserted in the lead in late 2019, later removed and re-inserted at least three times, most recently re-inserted by Hob Gadling. Since lacking formal training specifically in climate science is not the same as not being a climate scientist, this was at most a good-faith miscalculation of what would be obvious to others. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- It seems this is not an isolated incident: back in April there was [98] and the associated discussion here. --JBL (talk) 00:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just noticed this one: [99] --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- More of the same, but a bit older: [100]. It seems that this will continue happening if nobody does anything about it. This is the right place for such problems, right? --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- This discussion reminds me of why I never tried to get this ancient topic-ban lifted, despite my having relevant technical qualifications in the field. The Wiki Climate Wars live on! And happy holidays, too. --Pete Tillman (talk) 07:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Well, yes, if you go around trying to present people's WP:FRINGE views as mainstream, you will discover that gets up the hackles of other editors, particularly when you have been banned from doing so. Who knew?! --JBL (talk) 16:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- This discussion reminds me of why I never tried to get this ancient topic-ban lifted, despite my having relevant technical qualifications in the field. The Wiki Climate Wars live on! And happy holidays, too. --Pete Tillman (talk) 07:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- More of the same, but a bit older: [100]. It seems that this will continue happening if nobody does anything about it. This is the right place for such problems, right? --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just noticed this one: [99] --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Editor not communicating
- Kanto7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User talk:Kanto7 We have a small problem with an editor that will not communicate with others about their mass change of flags and dates in infoboxes. They have been reverted all over by many ediotrs all trying to get them to engage to no avail. Some edits are OK but the vast majority are not and they will not reply to inquiries. They may even be correct in sone cases but won't talk just warring. Let's give this person a small block see if that gets there attention. --Moxy 🍁 01:01, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Off topic
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- still at it. sad face.--Moxy 🍁 14:26, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- It would help greatly, if an administrator would check in on @Kanto7:. The lad doesn't seem to be getting the message. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hello.? Editors still reverting to their preferred version with no talks.....even adding fake flags. What to do?--Moxy 🍁 00:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Moxy: When you take someone to ANI, it is helpful to provide examples in the form of diffs like this that show the editor making a specific change you contest. In addition, explaining what the problem is with that edit is helpful as well, because admins are likely not going to be familiar with the subject area you edit in. So if the editor is changing dates without explanation or references, and those changes contradict certain references, bring all that information. Otherwise, we're sort of asking admins to dig through a person's edit history, familiarise themselves with the subject area, do the research, etc. It's much. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- You are correct...just though that the edit history of being revert 90 percent of the time by several editors then reverted back with no talk despite many trying to talk to them was good enough. I am not expert either in the realm of flags or no all the proper dates but can say that adding fictitious flags and changing dates that are sourced is simply bad and needs to stop. Hard to keep up with someone that does not use edit summaries unless they are reverted multiple times. --Moxy 🍁 20:39, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Moxy: When you take someone to ANI, it is helpful to provide examples in the form of diffs like this that show the editor making a specific change you contest. In addition, explaining what the problem is with that edit is helpful as well, because admins are likely not going to be familiar with the subject area you edit in. So if the editor is changing dates without explanation or references, and those changes contradict certain references, bring all that information. Otherwise, we're sort of asking admins to dig through a person's edit history, familiarise themselves with the subject area, do the research, etc. It's much. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hello.? Editors still reverting to their preferred version with no talks.....even adding fake flags. What to do?--Moxy 🍁 00:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Continued bad-faith accusations and suggestions by Bgkc4444
Bgkc4444 was warned in a previous report by Ivanvector to assume good faith in dealing with editors, such as myself, to which they responded, "I do apologise for assuming bad faith, and I will try keep a check on that." ([101]) Having been pinged to a discussion at Talk:Surprise album#Removal of sourced material, given my contributions several months ago, I noticed they are still making bad-faith accusations and suggestions toward other editors, Fezmar9 specifically, and I see these are similarly bad-faith and suggestive comments that tested my own patience before.
- [102] "no matter if you personally dislike those facts", is how they opened the discussion after their only series of changes to the article in recent memory was reverted yesterday
- [103] "And you do not own this page so how dare you tell me to 'leave well enough alone' because you personally don't want to accept or display these basic facts." ("own" was pipe-linked to WP:OWN)
- [104] "we shouldn't not be making articles encyclopedic because we personally don't want readers to know the full story."
- [105] "It's funny looking at what you're trying to force into the article."
- [106] "Watch your tone, and it would be great if you stopped with the whataboutism and actually responded to my points. And well, no. As much as you'd love it to be the truth, Swift's albums aren't the main events in surprise album history like Radiohead and Beyonce's albums."
- [107] "Again with the ignoring of my points? ... I hope you're not refusing to engage in discussion, because this isn't your article, and you should want to reach consensus to ensure it is encyclopedic." ("this isn't your article" was pipe-linked, again, to WP:OWN)
- [108] "I'm not the one reverting to force my contradictory opinions onto the page."
- [109] "Consensus is not three editors agreeing with each others and explicitly agreeing to ignore opposing views."
- [110] "The way editors on this page are trying to bury that fact by misrepresenting sources and hiding the significance of her album in a "shared" paragraph really isn't helpful."
I gave own input on the content dispute, with comments focusing strictly on the editor's changes and the content, rather than the editor's conduct or intentions, and even restored a piece of information that had been undone from Bgkc4444's original edit, but with a more appropriate source. Bgkc4444 replied by quoting a remark I made several months ago about what I felt was toxic and condescending behavior by them, while accusing the editors in disagreement with them of "trying to bury" information and "hiding the significance" of a particular subject. In my own opinion, I did not see anything suggesting Fezmar9 or BawinV have behaved or intended to behave in the way Bgkc4444 has said or suggested.
Content disputes can get heated and emotional. But, considering Ivanvector's advice in the aforementioned report, for more diligence in reporting incidents, I feel obligated to report this activity. Perhaps it will deter this kind of behavior so the rest of us can feel comfortable and encouraged, rather than compelled, to comply with more civil and patient standards of discussion about content. And so potentially toxic or unfair comments do not become normalized or countered by similar accusations and suggestions in discussions that should not lose focus of the content. Thank you. isento (talk) 00:08, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Firstly, you say "similarly bad-faith and suggestive comments that tested my own patience before", but I believe you're referring to your continuous personal attacks despite final warnings from administrators, which caused you to be blocked just ten days ago. I also believe you admitted your personal intolerance of me ("Know what, BD2412? When you're right, you're right, and I can't deny it: I can't stand that person anymore. This ridiculous post has is the final nail in the coffin for my patience with them. Ban us from interacting with each other. It's not worth it."), said you want no further interaction with me multiple times, and called this administrators' noticeboard a kangaroo court of hypocrites, so I genuinely cannot think of a good reason why you'd join a discussion that you know I started and then complain about my actions to the same noticeboard.
- Secondly, I do not see how these are "continued bad-faith accusations and suggestions". I certainly stick by my contributions to the discussion that I had made, unless I violated Wikipedia guidelines that I am not aware of. It is certainly true that both in the previous discussion and in the current one, editors explicitly agreed to ignore my points (especially you, when you said: "Don't waste your energy on this person, BawinV. Their repetitive gobbledygook and toxic, condescending suggestions are of no consequence to this article. Let them get it out of their system and we can return to actually improving this article.") and then consequently claimed that consensus was reached. I am happy to go through each of the out-of-context quotes you brought here one-by-one, but I don't want to waste time and would appreciate an administrator's POV. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:38, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
My conduct has already been addressed in the previous report. I have learned from and am over it. Nor will I be baited into further behavior of that kind -- as I clearly said above, I was pinged to that discussion and had contributed significantly to the article. WP:HOTHEAD makes it clear that project[ing] negative mental assumptions about someone you're in a disagreement with is wrong, and saying things like "no matter if you personally dislike those facts" or making repeated accusations of page ownership seemed to fit the bill to me. So I reported it. I think a more formal warning rather than a block is appropriate, especially since Bgkc444 responded so defensively and was quick to highlight my past transgressions rather than reflect on their own behavior. They have demonstrated a pattern of making inflammatory or unactionable accusations ([111], as warned by Escape Orbit, and elsewhere: [112], [113], as warned by the since-retired admin Ad Orientem). And believe they should be held accountable for it like anyone else. isento (talk) 21:29, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- How is this WP:BAIT? I believe bait would be something like - after being blocked for continuous attacks on an editor, pledging a personal intolerance of them and pleading to not have interactions with them again - joining a discussion that that editor started, "remaining superficially civil" (e.g. as you said, you "even" restored a small piece of the material that I added) and "then complain to an administrator". I gave you the benefit of the doubt, hoped you had changed and wouldn't try and ruin my editing experience for me as you have continuously done for months, but unfortunately I took the bait and here we are. Fezmar9 and I were in a NPOV dispute and we both accused each other of bias. If you brought this to ANI for the sake of educating editors about how to keep cool during a discussion, why not write a message on both mine and Fezmar9's talk pages? WP:CIVIL provides many methods and tips for how to deal with incivility. It also says that "In "emergency" situations, where the other editor needs to be stopped in their tracks to avoid causing serious disruption or needs a fast and strong wake-up call, file a report at the administrator "Incidents" noticeboard", which is certainly not the case here. The fact that you didn't try any other method to deal with the claimed incivility (which goes against Wikipedia's policy), are specifically targeting me (the editor who you said you are intolerant of) and not both editors involved, and are bringing this straight to the board that blocked you due to my report last week, could suggest that you are trying to get "payback" on me, which would be highly inappropriate. Bgkc4444 (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Yesterday at the aforementioned discussion, while pointing out the source-integrity flaws in Bgkc4444's original edits to the article, I encouraged them to make new edits with better sources they had themselves pointed out in the discussion to me but that they had not actually used themselves. Instead, the editor poured their energy into responding to this supposedly merit-less incident post, while I went ahead and used one of their proposed sources and added further detail to the subject -- Beyonce -- they had taken issue with for not having more detail.
This editor appears to routinely attack the intentions and credibility of other editors who do not agree with their Beyonce-focused content changes, such as at Alecsdaniel's talk page here a month ago: All of this does not indicate you are acting to improve this article, and instead shows that you're trying to make the film seem "worse" ... As someone who edits on Beyoncé-related articles often, I find it really strange that fans of (typically white) artists frequently try to add negative content or minimise positive content in her articles ... repeatedly trying to force your edits onto the article that you know violate Wikipedia policies related to WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. This is another example where the editor was disagreed with and overwhelmed the other editor with WP:HOTHEAD-like accusations and suggestions, and when the other editor gave a valid response addressing the issue and then bowed out, Bgkc4444 still continued with the same line of argument, accusing the other editor of "trying to avoid the issue at hand" and "pretending to not realise why your material was removed and repeatedly blame it on my intelligence or personal agenda (it's because it violates Wikipedia's policies, by the way)" while suggesting that they have not been "engaging in constructive discussion". isento (talk) 03:04, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
I can honestly say my experience with Bgkc4444 was the worst on the English Wikipedia. "Black is King", a film by Beyonce, had the 'Reception' section filled only with overly-long praises from various sources and failed to address any criticism. In order to give the article a level of objectivity, I've added reviews or points made that weren't praising Beyonce, which the user removed. Despite having a conversation and a vote on the talk page of Black is King, in which other users agreed the points I raised were valid, he continued to remove anything he didn't see as good reviews. I've tried to talk to them, but, as seen from the answers given to Isento even here, they fail to ever answer to any question you raise, but instead bring up other issues - it feels like you are bargaining with someone at a bazaar. I truly believe this kind of attitude is toxic for people to interact with, which is why I left them to their device, and there is still only praise on the "Black is King" page. Furthermore, since they lack objectivity, it is really hard to say how much their contributions value on Wikipedia, as this is not a fan page. But not everybody gets that. Alecsdaniel (talk) 07:11, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Isento: Seriously, are you not tired of this? And are you refusing to address my points even here?
- "I encouraged them to make new edits with better sources they had themselves pointed out in the discussion to me but that they had not actually used themselves. Instead, the editor poured their energy into responding to this supposedly merit-less incident post, while I went ahead and used one of their proposed sources and added further detail to the subject -- Beyonce -- they had taken issue with for not having more detail." - Very benevolent of you, but because Fezmar9 and I are currently in a discussion regarding this content, I did not want to add material without ensuring there was consensus on it. And I'm not having a discussion with you while you're trying your hardest to get me blocked on here. I learned my lesson from the first bait-taking.
- And seriously, why are you bringing up months-old content disputes? It's actually sad that you'd try pick out random out-of-context quotes from a content dispute I had with someone months ago while ignoring their same messages to me as well as their personal attacks on my intelligence, something you have also done for months. I'll bring it here again. Fezmar9 and I, and Alecsdaniel and I, were in NPOV disputes and we all accused each other of bias. If you brought this to ANI for the sake of educating editors about how to keep cool during a discussion, why not write a message on mine, Fezmar9 and Alecdaniel's talk pages? WP:CIVIL provides many methods and tips for how to deal with incivility. It also says that "In "emergency" situations, where the other editor needs to be stopped in their tracks to avoid causing serious disruption or needs a fast and strong wake-up call, file a report at the administrator "Incidents" noticeboard", which is certainly not the case here (and, to add, a months-old discussion isn't an emergency either). The fact that you didn't try any other method to deal with the claimed incivility (which goes against Wikipedia's policy), are specifically targeting me (the editor who you said you are intolerant of) and not all editors involved, and are bringing this straight to the board that blocked you due to my report last week, could suggest that you are trying to get "payback" on me, which would be highly inappropriate.
- This is hilarious. Isento says I should be blocked because I said another user is "trying to avoid the issue at hand" and not "engaging in constructive discussion", and Alecsdaniel follows saying that I "fail to ever answer to any question you raise, but instead bring up other issues - it feels like you are bargaining with someone at a bazaar". Alecsdaniel you can say that all you want! Accusing me of avoiding the issue is a wrong characterization, but that is certainly not something that goes against Wikipedia's policy or warrants administrators' attention. If it does, Isento, again, why not address both of us? To that end, @Alecsdaniel: please bring one question that I did not answer, because I can bring up many that you did not answer. No, as I said months ago, polling is not a substitute for discussion, and the unassociated editor in the discussion agreed that your material violated WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT (you admitted that you looked for sentences in reviews that matched your personal opinions of the film), yet those issues are still something that you haven't addressed months later. I've stated many times that I welcome additions of "negative" content to the article, added such material myself to the article, cut the rest of the material considerably down, and have tried to have constructive discussion on the article talk page and your talk page. I don't see the point of continuing our discussion here when no-one replied to me when I tried making discussions on the talk pages. This is a noticeboard to get administrators' assistance, not discuss content disputes. I feel bad, Isento, that you're trying to drag this on. Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your answer just backed my claims. Thanks! Alecsdaniel (talk) 01:31, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Bgkc4444:, I'm sorry for being hard on you in the past and saying things out of frustration that I did not mean. I should be more sympathetic to mental health issues -- I've lived in a verbally abusive household and know how it feels to feel handicapped by it, as well as to use hobbies and idolatry as a space to escape in. I also know how it feels to become defensive and distressed when we feel our space violated or threatened. As I stated above, I do not want you blocked. But for us to coexist, we all must change. When there is a pattern of conflict, we must see that there is fault in some behavior or aspect of our behavior that we keep repeating. And as harsh as it may appear to read, our comments have truth to them. isento (talk) 02:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Your condescending comments and faux psychoanalysis are extremely inappropriate. Please see your talk page. To stay focused on the actual discussion. What conflict do we currently have? The only thing I said to you was a comment last week saying that something "isn't helpful", and with another user I've had an NPOV dispute. These are not urgent or emergency matters that require administrators' discipline. The discussion here isn't going to go anywhere if you continue to ignore the points I raise. Bgkc4444 (talk) 08:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- You have admitted to having mental health issues here and here, and my point was to try relating my own experience with mental health issues to you so you would stop compulsively attaching negative mental assumptions to editors who appear at odds with you (WP:HOTHEAD), and instead appreciate the good faith that is there. But this response tells me I failed to do that -- instead of seeing the effort through good faith, you completely misread it through a bad-faith lens, which betrays a problem. And this noticeboard is not only for "urgent or emergency matters". It is also for "chronic, intractable behavioral problems." isento (talk) 09:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Where do I admit that I have "mental health issues"?? I said that your continuous incivility took a toll on my mental health. I never said I have "mental health issues", nor that I've lived in an "abusive household", nor that I "feel handicapped by it", nor that I "use hobbies and idolatry as a space to escape in". It is highly inappropriate and actually quite disgusting that you'd make those assertions about me. If you'd want to appear as acting in good faith, it would probably be best to avoid telling other editors that they are handicapped idolaters with mental health issues. And I don't believe you're stupid so I know that you know what the right thing to do is.
- Unsurprisingly, it's hard to see good faith in someone who has abused me for the better part of a year with horrible personal attacks and insults, which evidently hasn't stopped. It's hard to see good faith in someone who was blocked for this abuse against me just last week, who admitted their personal intolerance of me ("Know what, BD2412? When you're right, you're right, and I can't deny it: I can't stand that person anymore. This ridiculous post has is the final nail in the coffin for my patience with them. Ban us from interacting with each other. It's not worth it."), and has said that they want no further interaction with me multiple times, but then reply to a discussion that I started and then when I reply, immediately report me to ANI. That doesn't indicate good faith. I assume you know that you yourself have problems with "compulsively attaching negative mental assumptions to editors who appear at odds with you (WP:HOTHEAD)" and making personal attacks, because every time I have to discuss this issue with you, either I write a note on your talk page under another note on your talk page about incivility directed against another editor, or other random editors join in my section highlighting how you act the same way to them. If you know you have a problem with other editors so much, and especially me, and if you truly want other editors to view your actions as being in good faith, there are many options you can choose to do that. Interacting with editors when you know you shouldn't, reporting them to ANI and continuing with baseless personal claims about them are not some of those options. To that note, how would you know if those issues are "tractable" if instead of writing a polite message on my talk page, you either write uncivil or condescending comments or go immediately to ANI? Again, this makes it harder for me to see your actions as being in good faith, if that is truly what you want to gain from this discussion. Bgkc4444 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- You have admitted to having mental health issues here and here, and my point was to try relating my own experience with mental health issues to you so you would stop compulsively attaching negative mental assumptions to editors who appear at odds with you (WP:HOTHEAD), and instead appreciate the good faith that is there. But this response tells me I failed to do that -- instead of seeing the effort through good faith, you completely misread it through a bad-faith lens, which betrays a problem. And this noticeboard is not only for "urgent or emergency matters". It is also for "chronic, intractable behavioral problems." isento (talk) 09:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Your condescending comments and faux psychoanalysis are extremely inappropriate. Please see your talk page. To stay focused on the actual discussion. What conflict do we currently have? The only thing I said to you was a comment last week saying that something "isn't helpful", and with another user I've had an NPOV dispute. These are not urgent or emergency matters that require administrators' discipline. The discussion here isn't going to go anywhere if you continue to ignore the points I raise. Bgkc4444 (talk) 08:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Bgkc4444:, I'm sorry for being hard on you in the past and saying things out of frustration that I did not mean. I should be more sympathetic to mental health issues -- I've lived in a verbally abusive household and know how it feels to feel handicapped by it, as well as to use hobbies and idolatry as a space to escape in. I also know how it feels to become defensive and distressed when we feel our space violated or threatened. As I stated above, I do not want you blocked. But for us to coexist, we all must change. When there is a pattern of conflict, we must see that there is fault in some behavior or aspect of our behavior that we keep repeating. And as harsh as it may appear to read, our comments have truth to them. isento (talk) 02:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I didn't make those assertions. I said that those were my experiences. Bgkc4444 is the one who had brought up mental health as an issue originally. As for writing a polite message to their talk page, I recall doing so in the beginning and getting accused of mocking them ([114]), merely because I said please don't restore the content again. These responses are consistently combative and distracting the focus from their behavior to mine when mine has already been addressed in the previous report. That is by definition intractable. That they respond defensively to my apology for my past behavior is also indicative of this long-term issue. isento (talk) 06:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Bgkc4444:, I'm sorry for all the mean, intolerant things I've said to you in the past 😢 I'm sorry if they hurt you so much. I believe my concerns here are valid and of good-faith, but I am still sorry. isento (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- "I didn't make those assertions. I said that those were my experiences." - No, you said: "I should be more sympathetic to mental health issues -- I've lived in a verbally abusive household and know how it feels to feel handicapped by it, as well as to use hobbies and idolatry as a space to escape in." Saying "know how it feels" means that you're making those assertions about me. That's obvious, Isento, and if you want to appear as acting in good faith then pretending you never said that doesn't help. "Bgkc4444 is the one who had brought up mental health as an issue originally." - Again, I said that your continuous incivility took a toll on my mental health, not that I am a handicapped idolater with mental health issues.
- "As for writing a polite message to their talk page, I recall doing so in the beginning" - No you didn't. You just repeatedly placed warning templates on my talk page, including two within 24 hours, and replied sarcastically when I asked you to clarify. This clearly shows that you were not writing polite messages on my talk page, despite the fact that WP:UW clearly states that "issuing templated messages to editors you're currently involved in a dispute with", not writing personal messages, and not clarifying yourself can all indicate that the editor is acting uncivilly. And even if you did write a constructive message on my talk page (which you didn't), we're talking about a discussion from this week, not 6 months ago.
- "respond defensively to my apology for my past behavior is also indicative of this long-term issue" - Telling me that you relate to me because I am a handicapped idolater with mental health issues and you get where I'm coming from is not in any way an apology, and having an issue with such accusations is not being defensive nor "indicative of this long-term issue".
- Isento, it is not "past behavior" or "things I've said to you in the past" because this is very clearly an ongoing problem. Yes, your comment to me is highly inappropriate and I tried discussing it with you on your talk page, but you deleted it (as you always have done when I write personal messages on your talk page regarding your behavior) and replaced it with a link to "Love's In Need Of Love Today". And you're clearly not sorry or bothered about ruining others' experiences on Wikipedia if, when I tell you the distress that you've caused me, you say that I am "hyperbolizing whatever offense I allegedly cause them. I can't imagine how I'd be judged if I engaged in these histrionics. I made one nasty remark out of frustration with them, months ago, and they still havent' been able to get over it." Bgkc4444 (talk) 12:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Alecsdaniel was right. You're proving my point. And as for the song, not everything is about you - we all have our own lives and crises of conscience to which you have no relevance. I was rude and sarcastic in the past because I felt you were obnoxiously self-serving and unrelentingly biased, and you are still taking everything said way too seriously and unforgivingly, if only for the sake of your own ego, since this noticeboard post isn't even a content dispute and since you have verbosely attacked the merits of this post, God knows why if you don't think it has any merit to begin with. I apologized and took responsibility for the past, but your continued aggression makes me feel regretful and foolish for doing so, since you seem incapable of considering or taking any blame on your part when multiple editors have pointed out to you that you've got a problem. I will now leave this in the more capable hands of administrators. Bowing out 🙏 isento (talk) 21:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) From what I can see here, I wish users Isento and Bgkc4444 would WP:DISENGAGE. Both of you keep going back and forth, often more heated than the last. In my opinion, as an uninvolved third-party, both of your behavior toward each other is inappropriate and unacceptable. Regarding specific issues: Bgkc4444 has what appears to be some serious tendentious and POV pushing issues, going so far as to ignore local consensus on pages (as Isento) pointed out. However, Isento is a very experienced editor with over 120,000 edits and has been here since 2008. Given that breadth of experience, I feel that they should be more than capable of handling this type of issue without being so easily brought down to a level of interaction which is lesser than should be expected of them. (Personally, to witness this happening to such an experienced editor is disheartening.) ~Gwennie🐈⦅💬 📋⦆ 22:42, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Gwennie-nyan, I am sorry for disappointing you. It was a very rough year, and I let it seep into my activity here sometimes. But I am healing. Hence the inspiration for posting the song. I'm not a machine. I've had issues too. And I really got to sympathize with what I sensed the editor was going thru because I've been there too. I hope my shortcomings have at least served to help another editor see theirs. Because they have positive potential that can help the project. isento (talk) 23:01, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Gwennie-nyan: Thank you for your comment. Could I possibly ask you to clarify when I "ignore[d] local consensus on pages"? Is that regarding my quote that Isento brought saying: "Consensus is not three editors agreeing with each others and explicitly agreeing to ignore opposing views."? Because that sentence is certainly true. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bgkc4444, mostly, as you admitted to it, consensus is a complicated thing. If you're on a page and there's a total of four editors (yourself included) discussing things on a talk page, and three of them are in agreement and you disagree, you're facing growing local consensus. Now, if you don't think you and your arguments are being given a fair shake, that's why we have the RFC system and dispute resolution system, where third parties can be brought in from a wider scope to the page and help weigh-in on disputed matters. If you find yourself facing down three editors (concurring with the position you oppose) by yourself, without any other support, and you keep trying to force your arguments or way by yourself without using some of those systems I just mentioned, that is definitely a fertile ground for problematic behavior, if not somewhat problematic in itself. I heavily disagree with you saying it is certainly true, as it is more likely to be untrue than true (in this context). ~Gwennie🐈⦅💬 📋⦆ 19:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Gwennie-nyan: Thank you for your response. That isn't exactly what happened. Editor A started a discussion about various edits done by Editor B, and I tried to bridge the two and voiced my agreements and disagreements of points within both arguments, however this was met with intolerance (e.g. "Don't waste your energy on this person, BawinV. Their repetitive gobbledygook and toxic, condescending suggestions are of no consequence to this article. Let them get it out of their system and we can return to actually improving this article.". WP:CON states that "A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised" and "In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view.", so the conclusion of that discussion cannot be considered a consensus just because it's "3 vs 1" and especially if the "3 side" explicitly said to ignore the "1 side"'s concerns. I also believe that I do not "keep trying to force your arguments or way by yourself". WP:CON further states that soliciting outside opinions should be done when there is a deadlock, but the discussion lasted for only ~12 hours before my opinions were told to be ignored and that request was heeded, so I didn't solicit outside opinions because we hadn't even had a proper discussion, let alone form any consensus. Bgkc4444 (talk) 20:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bgkc4444, thank you, but I've already gone through plenty of pages related to the contributions of both you and Isento so I can make informed comments.
- Regarding the incident you linked, I would also like to point out your comment. Both of you have been editing music-related pages (most notably Beyonce-related), so it makes sense for you to end up in the talk pages thereof. Things really didn't become personal until that comment, which targeted Isento with an implication of WP:HOUNDING. (Such that BawinV discouraged you from that behavior.) If you feel that they are, then you need to report that, you don't escalate the confrontation. Reading through the talk pages, it seems that after Isento appeared you become much more disagreeable and your statements became pointed.
- Both here and in examples that have been pointed out, you engage in a significant amount of wikilawyering which isn't very constructive for the purposes of the project in my opinion. The number of other editors who have expressed their dissension with your interactions is concerning. While trying to assume good faith, I am also inclined to point out that someone more cynical might think you're gaming the system, as Isento likely does, as they have accused you of making bad-faith accusations.
- I would also like to point out that when Isento has posted a good list of diffs regarding your content, you have been misdirecting the conversation. While I appreciate the link to Isento's statement, they have already been disciplined for it. This AN/I is not about them, it's about you. To ignore the accusations of misconduct by you by pointing out the misbehavior of others is whataboutism and not a very good-faith tactic to engage in.
- These are the reasons Isento and Alecsdaniel have said that your statements prove their points and I have to agree with them to a certain degree, which I don't necessarily want to. ~Gwennie🐈⦅💬 📋⦆ 23:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Gwennie-nyan: Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that consensus was reached on that page even though WP:CON states that consensus is not when editors ignore others' concerns nor when there's 3 vs 1? And apologies that I made a suggestion of possible hounding on that talk page three months ago, but Isento's personal attack to me is not justified because of that, in the same way that my suggestion wasn't justified by his preceding personal attacks to me. And I don't understand why you're pinging other editors....
- Please explain in what way I "engage in a significant amount of wikilawyering" (and gaming the system)? That's a pretty serious claim to make and one that is considered an insult if it doesn't address a specific argument.
- Which brings me on to this. I still don't understand exactly what my supposed violation of Wikipedia guidelines that warranted this ANI report was, any more than I was in an NPOV dispute which I don't understand why it would warrant such an approach. In my first response to this discussion, I said so, and have said so repeatedly throughout this discussion, but I am none the wiser. Also, there's nothing wrong with giving the full story to any administrator reading this because there is no "immunity" for reporters (WP:SHOT). Bgkc4444 (talk) 00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- The far more serious claim that I took serious offense to and ended up losing faith and seriousness for you was being accused of racism and misogyny: To quote Ivanvector in the previous report: "I read isento's comment from August (this one) criticizing a source as "just some neurotic vapid lecture about Swift "oversharing"", which in the next edit you described as "[isento] dismissing this article by saying "it just isn't a serious piece of commentary" because the work of a black female writer "is just some neurotic vapid lecture" and said it "sounds extremely misogynistic and racist"." When I warned you about it in August as a personal attack, you doubled-down on the claim: "Calling out your racism and misogyny is not considered a personal attack, because there is evidence of this behaviour" Now, I was going thru a lot at the time in my life, so I was bone-headed enough to talk down to you in response, and from there, I ended up stooping to your level further, as Gwennie-nyan suggested. There was no legitimate reason for accusing me of that. And you never owned up to it. I don't want to be a hypocrite and assume bad-faith as to why you'd accuse me of that, or continue denying you have demonstrated a problem. So I am left with no other conclusion than it has been a mental health issue. I don't feel we need an interaction ban, but it seems from your responses that you still don't get the problem, which resigns me to leaning toward Gwennie's proposal, sad to say. isento (talk) 01:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Gwennie-nyan: Thank you for your response. That isn't exactly what happened. Editor A started a discussion about various edits done by Editor B, and I tried to bridge the two and voiced my agreements and disagreements of points within both arguments, however this was met with intolerance (e.g. "Don't waste your energy on this person, BawinV. Their repetitive gobbledygook and toxic, condescending suggestions are of no consequence to this article. Let them get it out of their system and we can return to actually improving this article.". WP:CON states that "A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised" and "In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view.", so the conclusion of that discussion cannot be considered a consensus just because it's "3 vs 1" and especially if the "3 side" explicitly said to ignore the "1 side"'s concerns. I also believe that I do not "keep trying to force your arguments or way by yourself". WP:CON further states that soliciting outside opinions should be done when there is a deadlock, but the discussion lasted for only ~12 hours before my opinions were told to be ignored and that request was heeded, so I didn't solicit outside opinions because we hadn't even had a proper discussion, let alone form any consensus. Bgkc4444 (talk) 20:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bgkc4444, mostly, as you admitted to it, consensus is a complicated thing. If you're on a page and there's a total of four editors (yourself included) discussing things on a talk page, and three of them are in agreement and you disagree, you're facing growing local consensus. Now, if you don't think you and your arguments are being given a fair shake, that's why we have the RFC system and dispute resolution system, where third parties can be brought in from a wider scope to the page and help weigh-in on disputed matters. If you find yourself facing down three editors (concurring with the position you oppose) by yourself, without any other support, and you keep trying to force your arguments or way by yourself without using some of those systems I just mentioned, that is definitely a fertile ground for problematic behavior, if not somewhat problematic in itself. I heavily disagree with you saying it is certainly true, as it is more likely to be untrue than true (in this context). ~Gwennie🐈⦅💬 📋⦆ 19:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Resolution Proposal
(Non-administrator comment) As a non-admin who has dug into this issue, I would like to propose the admins implement the following proposal:
- Talk/Interaction Ban of Isento and Bgkc4444 interacting with the other, anywhere, unless required by policy. (This would hopefully resolve the ongoing issue between the two editors and also preempt Bgkc4444's statements of possibly WP:HOUNDING by Isento.)
- Formal Admonition of Bgkc4444 for their tendentious editing, wikilawyering, and bad-faith arguing/whataboutism.
Respectfully, ~Gwennie🐈⦅💬 📋⦆ 23:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Wilkja19 marking all edits as minor
- Wilkja19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wilkja19 (talk · contribs) has been editing since 2018. For an inexplicable reason they began marking all of their edits as minor beginning in 2019, without exception. Most of these edits are not minor (as described in WP:MINOR) and include significant content additions, deletions, and changes. This editor has been asked twice to stop marking all edits as minor: [115], [116]. But they continue doing so undeterred, with no attempt at communicating. I posted a notice of this discussion on their talk page, so I hope they will respond here. Sundayclose (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed, it seems that this user has been marking their edits as minor in order to evade from giving an edit summary. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 01:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked 24 hours. User has not reponded here, and has continued to mark edits as minor while this report was open. Recently, they have even marked a 1,900-byte removal of content as a minor edit. EdJohnston (talk) 23:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- 1,900 bytes marked as minor? Pah, an amateur. Narky Blert (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- The block has expired without comment; let's see what happens next. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guess what happened next. But it's worth noting this is an editor who edits exclusively on mobile with the iOS app. If you've ever used that app, you know why we should pity this poor editor. They've never made talkspace edits and may be totally unaware of all of their UTP messages or even that a UTP exists. They don't edit every day, so the 24hr block may also have gone unnoticed. This editor may be totally unaware that there is a problem. Levivich harass/hound 06:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- The block has expired without comment; let's see what happens next. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- 1,900 bytes marked as minor? Pah, an amateur. Narky Blert (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked 24 hours. User has not reponded here, and has continued to mark edits as minor while this report was open. Recently, they have even marked a 1,900-byte removal of content as a minor edit. EdJohnston (talk) 23:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is (or used to be) a preference setting, "Mark all edits minor by default". Once in a while an editor turns it on without realizing what he's done. I thought the preference had been elimintated (?) but it remains in effect for those that had it set. (All this according to my never-fail memory, of course.) EEng 01:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure if this is the same editor as (or related to) Toyotaboy13 (talk · contribs), based on editing interest and the fact that said editor created Wilkja19's userpage. That said, given Toyota uses Android (and Wilkja iOS) it may just be that Toyota created their userpage, and they still haven't realised. Which would match up with the non-existent response to talk page messages. If that's the case, imo not worth chastisising this editor over marking as minor. Enough actually problem editors around to block a poor soul for making the mistake of using the iOS app. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- This seems like a technical issue with the iOS app that needs to be resolved, though. Having editors who are impossible to contact or communicate with is a serious problem (much more serious than the relatively minor issue of someone marking all edits as minor.) --Aquillion (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh this is doomed. As a test, I just downloaded the app and left myself a message on my UTP using my bot account. No notification in the app at all (push, or alert in app itself, or otherwise). I think the app, at least looking at the screenshots, is built around readers not writers (ie editors). I remember a phab task about making block messages more obvious, but apparently user talk page messages are also quite invisible. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've crossposted this to VPT to see if there's a technical way to deliver them a message. If not, I think we should do nothing here other than tell phab to hurry this up. Communication is required, but if someone is able to do their own thing competently (given their extensive contributions, with no major problems) I think we should forget about this until/unless there's an actual issue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:01, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- The way to fix this is for us to all vote for WMF trustees who will select an ED who will properly fund and staff a development team. If anyone was looking for an example of how amazingly out-of-touch WMF devs are with the project, look no further than an editing app that doesn't provide talk page message or ping notifications. Can you imagine any Wikipedia editor ever approving such a thing for roll-out? It blows my mind.
- BTW, mobile-via-browser also has intermittently-working notifications (but at least they do work some of the time, just not 100%) (I guess the desktop isn't 100% either for that matter) (So vote for trustees).
- In the meantime, I agree leave this editor alone. Maybe an admin could post a note on their UTP explaining the situation, which at least other editors will see, and maybe this editor will see it one day, too. Levivich harass/hound 19:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've crossposted this to VPT to see if there's a technical way to deliver them a message. If not, I think we should do nothing here other than tell phab to hurry this up. Communication is required, but if someone is able to do their own thing competently (given their extensive contributions, with no major problems) I think we should forget about this until/unless there's an actual issue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:01, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh this is doomed. As a test, I just downloaded the app and left myself a message on my UTP using my bot account. No notification in the app at all (push, or alert in app itself, or otherwise). I think the app, at least looking at the screenshots, is built around readers not writers (ie editors). I remember a phab task about making block messages more obvious, but apparently user talk page messages are also quite invisible. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- This seems like a technical issue with the iOS app that needs to be resolved, though. Having editors who are impossible to contact or communicate with is a serious problem (much more serious than the relatively minor issue of someone marking all edits as minor.) --Aquillion (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Potential copyright issues in articles created by a fringe conversion therapist sock
At perhaps our most backlogged area, Contributor copyright investigations, I noticed a familiar name, Freeknowledgecreator (formerly FreeKnowledgeCreator), who was listed for persistent copyright issues that I believe the user never addressed or showed signs of changing from. The name was familiar as someone who I interacted with at Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, where they were attempting to get a fringe-pushing article on conversion therapy through GA. The user was blocked for sockpuppetry, a real long-term abuse case documented at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Skoojal/Archive. The user has a positive view of conversion therapy, a Christian evangelical view that homosexuality is a choice and an incredibly specific and intense hatred of Frederick Crews. They create articles on books with names like Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life?, Homosexual Behaviour: Therapy and Assessment, One Hundred Years of Homosexuality and Homosexuality: An Annotated Bibliography. Almost none of these articles have significant contributions by other users, based on spotchecks I've done.
Due to the user's extensive copyright violation issues, we now have a choice to either assess these articles in excruciating detail for copyright issues, POV issues, FRINGE sources and claims etc. or to mass delete them. I'm unsure why this problem has gone unaddressed for a couple of months since the sock was blocked. I attempted to CSD five such articles (checking none had any non-trivial contributions by other users) but was reverted by Genericusername57, doubtless for a sensible reason, but as the user has not been active for a week, I'm treating this as a sign that the CSDs are not uncontroversial and we need further input. I assume we can establish consensus here to speedily delete all articles and redirects created by Freeknowledgecreator under G5, as the person behind the account was blocked before the account was created. I believe that is 369 pages in total, mostly (around 300?) redirects, but if someone could work out the exact figure that would be good. I'm coming here rather than doing a bulk AfD because this is more a sock/behavioural issue than a content one. — Bilorv (talk) 17:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support mass speedy deletion of FKC creations as described in proposal. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support either this or presumptive deletions per Wikipedia:Copyright violations. The latter will see about 15 articles blanked as Wikipedia:Copyright problems and deleted after a week if a rewrite is not offered. MER-C 20:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bilorv, Thanks for your efforts at CCI! I could carry this out over the next few days; as someone who worked on the CCI there are a good deal of violations that mostly consist of 1 or two sentences from every one of the sources cited; given that the sources are academic journals and books and the larger articles have 15+ citations, figuring out what comes from where is kind of a waste. Note that FKC claimed to have cleaned the violations up on a few different articles and got an admin to revdel after editing some articles to "remove the violations", (User talk:Swarm/Archive 16#Thanks, and a request) yet I still found one left over at Natural Law and Natural Rights. Moneytrees🏝️Talk🌴Help out at CCI! 22:25, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- The thing is, Moneytrees, even without the copyvio issues I think we should still be uncomfortable with these unchecked G5 evasions with potential FRINGE / extremist POV issues. There aren't many articles which have received non-trivial scrutiny and one such is Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, which there was consensus to redirect. — Bilorv (talk) 13:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support deletion of most but not all. Freeknowledgecreator was indeed a POV pusher for views about sexual orientation being learned and I've argued with him multiple times. That said, I've worked on both Gay, Straight, and the Reason Why and Sambia Sexual Culture to make them balanced. They are good now. I wasn't previously aware of the article One Hundred Years of Homosexuality, but it actually looks good and I have watchlisted it. These three, at least, should be exempted. Others, especially about books that are old (with outdated reviews) and/or by conversion therapists, should be deleted. Giving such length and isolation to fringe and outdated views violates NPOV. Possibly if any other articles are about books that are not very old and by mainstream experts, they could be stubbed instead of deleted, but that's just an idea. Crossroads -talk- 22:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comment, Crossroads. I'd be happy if we exempted those two articles you've worked on (and I think they'd actually be exempt from the scope of G5 anyway) and though I'm not convinced about keeping any of the articles that only FKC worked on as a matter of principle, I'd definitely agree to keep that and any others that people can independently assess as acceptable in the view of getting this matter dealt with by and large. — Bilorv (talk) 23:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
:Comment: I'd be willing to do a review of their created articles, but they don't seem to have any contributions, or even be registered on this wiki. What's going on there? jp×g 13:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Figured it out, the name is all lowercase, the link from the CCI page is just misspelled. It looks like they've only made 369 articles total (and that number includes pagemoves + redirects). It wouldn't take me that long to run them all through a copyvio search. Would be happy to do that instead of just nuking them all pre-emptively. jp×g 13:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not mispelled—the user later changed their username (diff). Copyvio is not the only potential issue. — Bilorv (talk) 15:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- JPxG, the sources this user copied from can’t be scanned by earwig. Moneytrees🏝️Talk🌴Help out at CCI! 18:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Figured it out, the name is all lowercase, the link from the CCI page is just misspelled. It looks like they've only made 369 articles total (and that number includes pagemoves + redirects). It wouldn't take me that long to run them all through a copyvio search. Would be happy to do that instead of just nuking them all pre-emptively. jp×g 13:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I listed the first batch of articles at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2020 December 16 for deletion on the 24th. The CCI needs to be updated with the sock contribs. MER-C 19:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
One way interaction ban requested
I wish to request a one-way interaction of GiantSnowman-DrKay. I have repeatedly asked him not to reply to, comment on or mention me on wikipedia,[117] but he just won't stop. I don't know why he's so keen on this one-man campaign but as he refuses to desist (e.g. replying and pinging immediately after being asked not to) I think a formal sanction is required. DrKay (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- You posted on my talk page (out of the blue) and then have immediately taken me to ANI when I replied? Your stance and comments are entirely unsubstantiated. Where are your diffs? Where is the evidence that I "won't stop"? We disagree on interpretation of naming conventions for footballers, another editor simply raised the same concerns I have raised about your interpretation, you responded by accusing them of harassment, I replied to say it was not harassment. That was the first interaction we have had for a month. GiantSnowman 21:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Diffs are in the opening comment. The fact that you are continuing a feud a month later demonstrates that you are a long-term grudge-holder. The only question I cannot answer is what caused the original grudge. I have repeatedly demonstrated support for disambiguation by birth year when required or opposition to nationality where fluid[118][119][120][121][122]. Both you and the other editor are aggressively misrepresenting my opinion. DrKay (talk) 21:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is no feud! GiantSnowman 21:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Then, please leave me alone. Do not reply to me. Do not comment on me. Do not ping me. Do not mention me. Thank you. DrKay (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is no feud! GiantSnowman 21:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Diffs are in the opening comment. The fact that you are continuing a feud a month later demonstrates that you are a long-term grudge-holder. The only question I cannot answer is what caused the original grudge. I have repeatedly demonstrated support for disambiguation by birth year when required or opposition to nationality where fluid[118][119][120][121][122]. Both you and the other editor are aggressively misrepresenting my opinion. DrKay (talk) 21:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @DrKay: I think many here may know I'm fiercely critical of those who intentionally ignore requests to stop pinging or to stay away from an an editors talk page but I'm having trouble seeing anything here close to worth of ANI. Okay I'll give it was completely stupid for GiantSnowman to ping you in their reply saying they would respect the parts of your request that were reasonable. But hopefully that was a one time thing. If GiantSnowman kept at it after that one time, then yes maybe there would be something to deal with here but you've presented no evidence of that. Note that while you can ask someone to stop posting on your talk page and to stop pinging you, you cannot ask someone to stop replying to your comments elsewhere without pinging. Likewise while someone shouldn't bring you up unnecessarily, if it's relevant to the discussion e.g. if referring to your comments in a reply, then it would be reasonable to mention you. Nil Einne (talk) 22:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Currently, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople) states that nationality should be used before birth year. This was changed from preferring birth year without discussion or comment in November 2019 by KingSkyLord (talk · contribs) [123]. I suspect it may have been inadvertent, as that user immediately thereafter moved Chris Turner (footballer, born 1959) and Adrián González (footballer, born 1988) to birth-year disambiguations. As the "feud" appears to simply be that both people are accusing the other of lying about what the naming conventions are, resolving what the naming conventions are seems key to determining what action is needed here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Power~enwiki: - it wasn't really changed - the 1 to 3 list there is not order of preference, it is just a list of options. GiantSnowman 22:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I do not dispute the naming conventions nor do I accuse GiantSnowman of lying about it. The convention is not to use nationality before year of birth. It is use whichever disambiguator out of nationality, year of birth and position in the case of goalkeepers is the most conclusive. It is very often the year of birth. DrKay (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with this. So what's the problem, other than we have occasionally disagreed in discussions where you prefer nationality and I prefer year of birth? GiantSnowman 22:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Should we reverse the IBAN as a boomerang? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, I think this is all unnecessary, from all perspectives. I have no issue with DrKay and would not support any form of sanction against them. We can just drop the drama. GiantSnowman 22:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- My view is drop the drama and have an RFC about whether to use nationality or year of birth as primary disambiguator. This was what I suggested in the diff of mine linked here. Joseph2302 (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, I think this is all unnecessary, from all perspectives. I have no issue with DrKay and would not support any form of sanction against them. We can just drop the drama. GiantSnowman 22:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Should we reverse the IBAN as a boomerang? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with this. So what's the problem, other than we have occasionally disagreed in discussions where you prefer nationality and I prefer year of birth? GiantSnowman 22:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: I tried raising an admin problem on User talk:DrKay concerning IP disruption[124] and the possible need for an SPI report, hoping that DrKay would give help.[125] DrKay had made edits to Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich of Russia but ignored obvious repeated IP disruption there. He has not so far not made any attempt to respond on his talk page, so I am responding here. I have read his report here, which seems OTT and unhelpful. Could an administrator advise on whether the relevant IP ranges should be blocked (IPs from the Melbourn area an Zurich in talk:Frédéric Chopin); an SPI report does not seem to be particularly useful, since only one registered editor is concerned. Mathsci (talk) 08:46, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Extremely unhelpful post. DrKay has asked GiantSnowman to leave them alone. No matter if this is warranted or not, the worst thing you could do is then take some unrelated issue you have with DrKay, and specifically ask GiantSnowman to look at it. As you did this in this very thread, you were clearly aware of this background. No idea why you are trying to stir things up here, but it doesn't look good. Fram (talk) 08:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Users excessively posting about Caliphs of Islam at help desk
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Today, while using Huggle for the first time, I saw that certain users (such as Waleed Baloch0000, 42.201.208.30, Hassam Tauqeer, and 103.255.7.30) were repeatedly posting about caliphs on the help desk. I noticed that this was almost exclusively on the help desk, the only non-help desk post I saw was on the main administrators' noticeboard. If you have already seen this incident taking place, I'd like to ask to see what can be done about this situation to prevent this from happening again. JJP...MASTER![talk to] JJP... master? 01:11, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Probably has something to do with this: [126] See Cullen328's comment. Crossroads -talk- 01:15, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Caliph-related forum shopping has made it to DRN as well: [127], [128] signed, Rosguill talk 02:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- We're also getting a lot of chaff at -en-help. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 02:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Closed discussion, but some context might be useful to those scrolling by:
Google's algorithms are so flawed that they show the caliph of the Amadiyya sect as the caliph of all of Islam. The Amadiyya are only about 1% of Muslims and are widely seen as heretical. Google then displays the Wikipedia article, leading true believers to conclude that Wikipedia is responsible for the error. See Qadiani for some insight into the anger this stirs up. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- (from when this came up at WP:AN earlier in the day) jp×g 08:06, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- A video was posted on Youtube yesterday walking through that google search, making the usual ethnic/sectarian abusive comments, and instructing viewers how to send complaints (including info-en@ and other routes). DMacks (talk) 08:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Can we temporarily protect the pages most affected by this or would that be too much? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 08:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is really a legendary level of disruption. I have opted to protect the help desk for 6 hours. It will probably need an extension, but I'll be asleep by then. The actual pages in dispute are already under semi or ECP. What I would love is if somebody could find a way to stop them spamming OTRS. I have dealt with well over 200 tickets in the last few hours and they are just flooding in. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 09:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not just the help desk. See the talk pages of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam and Talk:Mirza Masroor Ahmad. People here don't seem to understand that we're powerless in the matter, and lots of WP:MEAT going around and a few blocks dished out for distruptive behaviour. I won't be surprised to find many more pages which have had the same treatment, maybe google should be contacted. Pahunkat (talk) 09:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- And WP:AN3 and WP:BLP/N. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 09:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not just the help desk. See the talk pages of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam and Talk:Mirza Masroor Ahmad. People here don't seem to understand that we're powerless in the matter, and lots of WP:MEAT going around and a few blocks dished out for distruptive behaviour. I won't be surprised to find many more pages which have had the same treatment, maybe google should be contacted. Pahunkat (talk) 09:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is really a legendary level of disruption. I have opted to protect the help desk for 6 hours. It will probably need an extension, but I'll be asleep by then. The actual pages in dispute are already under semi or ECP. What I would love is if somebody could find a way to stop them spamming OTRS. I have dealt with well over 200 tickets in the last few hours and they are just flooding in. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 09:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Can we temporarily protect the pages most affected by this or would that be too much? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 08:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'll be patrolling recent changes to see if any other pages are affected. Is it work putting notices on the users' talk pages? Pahunkat (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- From experience with users with a similar mindset, yes. The vast majority of these are drive-by users who frankly are unlikely to follow-up. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 09:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- What are they mad about? Is Google still showing everyone false information, or are they just basing this off a Youtube video which is no longer true? When I search "current caliph of Islam" I get
Mirza Masroor Ahmad / The 5th and current Caliph of the Messiah of the Ahmadiyya Community is Mirza Masroor Ahmad. After the death of Ghulam Ahmad, his successors directed the Ahmadiyya Community from Qadian, India which remained the headquarters of the community until 1947 with the creation of Pakistan. / Ahmadiyya Caliphate - Wikipedia
. Of course, the clarifying information is in the blurb, but it still shows the guy's name in bold at the top of the page. If this isn't true, it seems like an issue that Google can (and should) be loudly whined at to fix. Is it possible to put a disclaimer somewhere telling people where to go do that? jp×g 09:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)- It appears that they're blaming us for this mess, because google displays that the info's taken from wikipedia - even though they've portrayed it in a misleading manner. Leaving messages like this on talk pages: "Whilst we appreciate your opinion, this matter is Google's and there's nothing we can do about what they decide to take from our website, even if it is portrayed in a misleading matter." Pahunkat (talk) 10:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Some are on template documentation, worried that they might start editing templates directly sooner or later and break them. Pahunkat (talk) 10:06, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- It appears that they're blaming us for this mess, because google displays that the info's taken from wikipedia - even though they've portrayed it in a misleading manner. Leaving messages like this on talk pages: "Whilst we appreciate your opinion, this matter is Google's and there's nothing we can do about what they decide to take from our website, even if it is portrayed in a misleading matter." Pahunkat (talk) 10:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- What are they mad about? Is Google still showing everyone false information, or are they just basing this off a Youtube video which is no longer true? When I search "current caliph of Islam" I get
- From experience with users with a similar mindset, yes. The vast majority of these are drive-by users who frankly are unlikely to follow-up. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 09:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector got it. DMacks (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- It happened again there so I've semi'd it for the default time...but really (since it's here and now) is there any reason old AfDs should be editable at all? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:02, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- You've got a point - but I guess we never expected people to try to edit those discussions in the first place. They've been targeting all sorts of articles, from Wikipedia:Database reports and Template:No admin backlog/doc which aren't related to the caliph at all. Pahunkat (talk) 08:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:2020 Ahmadiyya Caliphate information, by the way. Probably could be linked from the edit notices of any pages semi-protected in response to this. Enterprisey (talk!) 09:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- You've got a point - but I guess we never expected people to try to edit those discussions in the first place. They've been targeting all sorts of articles, from Wikipedia:Database reports and Template:No admin backlog/doc which aren't related to the caliph at all. Pahunkat (talk) 08:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It happened again there so I've semi'd it for the default time...but really (since it's here and now) is there any reason old AfDs should be editable at all? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:02, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- We have one - developed in record time. See special:abuselog, it's Filter 1106 and set to disallow. See the filter log of the help desk, for examples of edits that have been disallowed. Pahunkat (talk) 10:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like that filter is starting to catch some false positives: [129], [130], [131]. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:55, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if FP is the right term, because we took a decision to use a large hammer and now we're hitting stuff. But anyway, I've made an adjustment to the filter to tackle this issue. This might affect the dynamic a bit, but feel free to roll out any necessary protection. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like that filter is starting to catch some false positives: [129], [130], [131]. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:55, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Why are we discussing this at all?
This "constroversy" is part of an organised opression of a religious minoroty—Ahmadiyya. Why are we not aplying the obvious recipe: Revert, Block, Ban—no questions asked?
The essay WP:NONAZIS applies perfectly well in this case; it's just an other group that's getting targeted—not the usual ones: jews, gays, blacks, and what-not. Why, exactly, are we not reacting the proper ferocity? —Wasell(T) 19:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- From what I can tell, some admins are applying that whilst others are trying to interact with the users. Using the recipe of Revert, Block, Ban would bring up a few problems though - it would create a large backlog at WP:AIV (but I can't really comment on this since I'm not an admin), and the sheer volume of accounts they've been using is tremendous. If we wait, the storm might just blow over. Pahunkat (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see how this counts as organized oppression or why "ferocity" is required in response. Enterprisey (talk!) 22:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Given that Ahmadiyya originates in India, is this within the scope of the India/Pakistan/Afghanistan discretionary sanctions? —C.Fred (talk) 22:15, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Possible, but introducing 0RR/1RR sanctions would make it harder to address the issue given that most of the accounts are hit and run, wheras editors are looking to revert the comments. Pahunkat (talk) 22:19, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- That would just make it harder to revert/clean-up anything that slips past the filter as opposed to actually helping the problem, yeah. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- True. But it makes it easier for me to start giving level 4im warnings instead of level 1—or blocking on sight if it's egregious. —C.Fred (talk) 22:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- That would just make it harder to revert/clean-up anything that slips past the filter as opposed to actually helping the problem, yeah. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- If we considered such edits as vandalism and thus subject to the usual exemptions, then maybe this could be a possible solution to minimise disruption. Pahunkat (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- And to that end, I just added an edit notice to the Ahmadiyya article, stating that there is consensus for Islam to appear in the article, and removing it can be dealt with as intentional disruption. —C.Fred (talk) 16:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's here because admins need to be aware of the situation. I think you need to carefully re-examine the main complaint. From their point of view (though it's wrong), Wikipedia is saying that Mirza Masroor Ahmad is the fifth and current caliph of Islam. That statement is clearly false, and if these people are interested in calmly and politely pointing such an error, you won't find me banning them, regardless of their religious viewpoint. I've helped implement some of the protections and edit filter so I'm not saying it isn't disruptive, and the complaints aren't always free of bigotry, but more often they're just misguided. I don't think just banning everyone is a good solution here, nor are warnings which make no sense. And also, nobody should be penalised for reverting disruption. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Zzuuzz: I just read your message. Actually the Wikipedia article doesn't state that. It does state that he is the 5th Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community but not of Islam as a whole. This is entirely Google's fault. :
>> Taimoor Ahmed(Send a Message?) 03:16, 17 December 2020 (UTC)- This is why I said that their point of view is wrong. But it is undoubtedly their point of view. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Things seem to have quietened down a bit, I think it's the effects of the edit filter. Pahunkat (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. It looks like Google has now been pestered enough to change their results, and I've seen talk that some of our various responses are getting through to some influential people. The filter still had 50 hits in the last day (better than the 600 we were getting), so hopefully it might only last another few days. Thanks to everyone involved. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Things seem to have quietened down a bit, I think it's the effects of the edit filter. Pahunkat (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is why I said that their point of view is wrong. But it is undoubtedly their point of view. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Zzuuzz: I just read your message. Actually the Wikipedia article doesn't state that. It does state that he is the 5th Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community but not of Islam as a whole. This is entirely Google's fault. :
BigBoy75 Disruptive editing
- BigBoy75 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user systematically and over a long period of time makes edits with violations of WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV in the article East StratCom Task Force. I also have every reason to believe that when editing an article, this editor promotes his own point of view. He adds only critical information and removing orpositive from the article; violates WP:RSUW. All of his Wikipedia activity is tied exclusively to this article, which makes it easy to track his actions. He constantly marks his edits as minor when they are not, especially edits that might raise questions from other editors. For example, there is a consensus on the article's talk page, that one section of the article has neutrality issue (because of the text he added) and instead of fixing it he just removed the template and marked it as a minor edit. He constantly adds unreliable propagandistic sources like RT (TV Network) (RT America) and Sputnik (news agency). And constantly reverts edits that fix issues in the article in Criticism section.
Revert of revert, considering the fact that the source used the exact wording - diff
Revert of constructive removal - diff
Reverted the same material (it contained OR) again - diff
Added OR, violates WP:V (Berlingske says nothing about StratCom producing the document, but he still adding that and claims it was StratCom) - diff
Reverted OR material again - diff
Added unreliable source - diff
Added the exact same source to make it look like its different - diff
Reverted again with no explanation. And previous removal was absolutely justified - diff
Added copy paste from a single unreliable source ReframingRussia.com - diff
Added sources that do not supports the text and some of them even unreliable (Channel One Russia, Sputnik (news agency)) - diff
Again copy paste from that ReframingRussia.com source - diff
"Minor" template removal and unreliable source addition to push his POV - diff
Some of his destructive edits are hard to show here, because they include minor citation manipulations, OR wording and so on. I see no useful activity from actions. I just wasted hours to verify text to source integrity and remove his OR. Also I noticed that he uses blogger Jesper Larsen's opinion all of the time, gives different attribution to his words, so it misleads people and at first I thought it was the opinions of different people. And he also adds self published sources of Larsen where this blogger calls himself in the third person and calling himself investigative journalist and researcher. And then this editor uses the same characteristic in the article.--Renat (talk) 07:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I looked at a half a dozen diffs and I don't see why you want us to step into action. A bunch of them are disagreements about content. If something is an unreliable source, as in this edit, why wasn't that brought up on the talk page, or on the user's talk page--which is completely empty? The instructions on the top of this page are clear: ANI is the last resort, not the first. Did you ever take this up with the editor? And that edit with the unreliable source--that was from January. I don't see what you want us to do if the examples are so "subtle" you can't give diffs of them; the diffs I have looked at show no disruption that admins need to act on. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- But this edit, accusing you of copyright violations is at least strange. The Banner talk 13:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Talk:East StratCom Task Force is filled with heated discussions between BigBoy75 and other users, including the OP, regarding the issues raised here. At first glance, the OP has a point regarding some of their complaints about POV pushing and the use of unreliable sources. I know that admins almost always prefer to avoid enforcement actions in these types of disputes unless somebody starts cursing or edit warring. But I think that in this case at the very least the page should be tagged as subject to the discretionary sanctions in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe case. Then, if the problems there continue, a report could be filed at WP:AE where remedies such as a topic ban or a page block can be requested. Nsk92 (talk) 13:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Nsk92, that article, I hadn't really read it and it was pretty bad; it's only now, after I made some minor copy edits to the lead, that I see what it is about. I agree with you and just put the note on the talk page. I guess I should notify every active editor too: BigBoy75, RenatUK, PaleoNeonate, these notes are pro forma. I do not know, Nsk, if AE/DS are really the best solution here, with a localized problem in one article, where the disruptor is essentially an SPA. Because yes, I think I see BigBoy as the disruptor, in part because I do not think they are fully aware of Wikipedia's guidelines. RenatUK is wrong in not having sought other avenues of communication, but seems to have a better grasp of content and guidelines. PaleoNeonate is, I think, functioning as a kind of mediator, explaining policy and finding ways forward, which I appreciate.
The Banner, I'm not sure I understand your comment, but I have just responded to BigBoy's comment: it certainly was a copyright violation. Drmies (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Nsk92, that article, I hadn't really read it and it was pretty bad; it's only now, after I made some minor copy edits to the lead, that I see what it is about. I agree with you and just put the note on the talk page. I guess I should notify every active editor too: BigBoy75, RenatUK, PaleoNeonate, these notes are pro forma. I do not know, Nsk, if AE/DS are really the best solution here, with a localized problem in one article, where the disruptor is essentially an SPA. Because yes, I think I see BigBoy as the disruptor, in part because I do not think they are fully aware of Wikipedia's guidelines. RenatUK is wrong in not having sought other avenues of communication, but seems to have a better grasp of content and guidelines. PaleoNeonate is, I think, functioning as a kind of mediator, explaining policy and finding ways forward, which I appreciate.
Editor calling Omarosa Manigault Newman and Kimberly Klacik "tokens" and discussing their "look"
Editors User talk:Praxidicae and User talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x have been making editing the Kimberly Klacik article, but they have expressed a hatred and animus against her and Omarosa Manigault Newman, based upon their "look" and have called both of them "tokens". This discussion can be reviewed here: Space4Time3Continuum2x's token comment and comments on their "looks". This discussion between Praxidicae and S4T3C2x is derogatory, disrespectful language that borders on worse. The exact wording is as follows: Seems fairly obvious that she’s not seriously running for office. She’s applying for Omarosa’s job as Token Black Woman at the WH or a paying job on Fox. Either way, she’s got the mandatory look down. Praxidicae did not tell S4T3C2x that the comments were disrespectful and inappropriate. Praxidicae did not tell S4T3C2x to take down the comments, have them removed. S4T3C2x should remove the comment immediately. Neither of these editors should be working on Klacik's article. This discussion shows an antipathy toward the subject of the article, an animus that is ugly and unacceptable. I asked Praxidicae a series of questions and I will ask these questions again. Why do we have discretionary sanctions on politics articles if nothing is not done some like these becomes clear to other editors? Why didn't Praxidicae tell the fellow editor, S4T3C2x not to engage in such horrible talk? User talk:Praxidicae and Space4Time3Continuum2x probably shouldn't be editing the Klacik article whatsoever since both of them seem to have a hatred and antipathy toward the subject. Why are they discussing Klacik's looks or Omarosa's looks? And why are they assuming that Klacik and Omarosa are just "tokens"? Why are they using Wikipedia to comment on Klacik's and Omarosa's looks? These editors should disengage from the Klacik article and stop using the article to attack the subject. Please work to have these horrible, disrespectful comments about Omarosa and Klacik about their looks and race removed from Space4Time3Continuum2x talk page. Those comments go against everything Wikipedia is supposed to be for. Both of these editors should stop editing the Klacik article since there is a real animus issue toward Klacik's and Omarosa's "looks" and status. -- CharlesShirley (talk) 02:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. It's this same kind of combative, unproductive behavior that got them (CharlesShirley) banned from Elizabeth Warren (referesher, since they've forgotten [132] [133])
- Now they've taken to whitewashing Kim Klacik and then attacking editors who question their edits, when they remove sourced information, then obfuscate their answer and accuse others of racism among other things.
Praxidicae No, I don't take advice from editors that engage in discussions where you and Space4Time3Continuum2x call Klacik and Omarosa Manigault Newman "tokens", which is derogatory, disrespectful language that borders on worse. The exact wording is as follows: Seems fairly obvious that she’s not seriously running for office. She’s applying for Omarosa’s job as Token Black Woman at the WH or a paying job on Fox. Either way, she’s got the mandatory look down. Sorry that I repeated such horrible, nasty talk, but how else can I call you and Space4Time3Continuum2x's behavior and attitudes to the carpet? This wording needs to be removed after we come to a way to fix this BS talk and POV editing. Afterward there is some kind of resolution of this horrible, disrespectful BS then we can just point to this edit: Space4Time3Continuum2x's token comment and comments on their "looks". Why didn't you tell your fellow critic of Klacik not to engage in such horrible talk? I guess since you didn't tell Space4Time3Continuum2x to cutout the disrespectful talk then you clearly agree with it. You and Space4Time3Continuum2x probably shouldn't be editing this article whatsoever since both of you have a hatred and antipathy toward the subject. Why are either of you discussing Klacik's looks or Omarosa's looks? And why are assuming that they are just "tokens"? Why are using Wikipedia to comment on their looks? You should disengage and stop using the article to attack the subject. Your intentions from your comments are clear. Who put you two in charge of who and who isn't a token? Who put you in charge to discuss Klacik and Omarosa looks? Why are either one of you judging the subjects on their race? And why are working so hard to put false and defamatory information in the article? Whatever you answer is it doesn't look good. Please work to have these horrible, disrespectful comments about Omarosa and Klacik about their looks and race removed from Space4Time3Continuum2x talk page. Those comments go against everything Wikipedia is supposed to be for. And both of you should stop editing the article since there is a real animus issue toward Klacik's and Omarosa's "looks" and status. -- CharlesShirley (talk) 9:13 pm, Today (UTC−5)
- And now, the pièce de résistance, accusing me of saying something I never said, supporting something I never said I agreed with and demanding I become the keeper of another editor? I think this warrants a boomerang in the form of an AP2 ban. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 03:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @CharlesShirley: For clarity, since you've now dragged your baseless personal attacks against me to ANI, please provide diffs where I have said anything about either of the two individuals "status" or "looks". Thanks. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 03:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
CharlesShirley, you've made very serious and unsupported accusations that Praxidicae has taken part in these comments about "token" and "look", but I see zero evidence that she has done so. I strongly suggest that you either provide evidence now or immediately retract your statements both here and on the article's talk page. I also see that your attitude on the talk page appears...less than constructive and collaborative. You need to work towards solutions, not create drama and make unfounded accusations. I'm not impressed by Space4Time3Continuum2x's comments on their talk page either, but it still does not warrant you being so combative and it does not warrant accusations towards Praxidicae. Waggie (talk) 04:07, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It is apparent that CharlesShirley has no interest in collaboration in the area of AP2 topics, they are still editing and attacking other editors with baseless accusations and WP:ASPERSIONS and they've failed to substantiate anything even here. I would propose an AP2 topic ban, it's evident that they cannot conduct themselves in a civil and collaborative manner. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 14:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- The bolded quote is me voicing an opinion on my talk page where CharlesShirley didn't leave a message. There was no discussion of anyone’s looks, race, or status, and I did not make any "horrible, disrespectful comments" there or anywhere else. If I showed "hatred and antipathy" or "attacked" Klacik or inserted "false and defamatory information" in her article, CharlesShirley should point out those incidences. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's still not cool. Your opinion on your talk page is sill publically visible to anyone that happens across it. Saying "Token Black Woman" is all kinds of problematic. I thought you might be quoting the snopes article but it is not mentioned there. BLP applies to talk pages too (see WP:BLPTALK). Be more careful. Praxidicae has done nothing wrong that I can see. You are not obliged to point out bad behaviour on others talk pages. AIRcorn (talk) 18:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sources for my three sentences: [134], [135], [136], [137], [138], [139]. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 22:06, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Either way, CharlesShirley has not responded to what I feel is a perfectly reasonable request for them to support or retract their accusations towards Praxidicae. Even though they are clearly active on Wikipedia. As they do not seem interested in participating in an ANI thread they started, and also seem to feel it is appropriate to continue on with similar behavior elsewhere, I think that a WP:NPA block is appropriate, or at the very least, an indefinite AP2 TBAN as suggested above. WP:BOOMERANG applies, IMHO. Waggie (talk) 02:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sources for my three sentences: [134], [135], [136], [137], [138], [139]. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 22:06, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Either way? So Praxidicae is not guilty of aiding and abetting, but it’s OK for the editor to misquote what I wrote about a dozen times ("looks" ain’t the same as "the look", and "a job as Token" ain’t the same as being one), make assumptions about me and my alleged attitudes, call me racist, and accuse me of having put false and defamatory information in the article? Maybe I should I take this to teacher ANI. Oh wait - I’m already there, and it seems I’m the bad guy. Gee, thanks. A lengthy argument between CharlesShirley and Praxidicae
took place from 20:24 UTC to 23.38 (UTC) which seems to have gotten more and more heated. Then at 02:24 UTC this, at 02:59 this, and at 02:41 UTC the notification on my Talk page. I wasn’t aware of CharlesShirley’s accusations until 10 hours later, and—what with the numerous pings CharlesShirley had sent from the Klacik talk page—I didn’t notice the admin board complaint and the notification on my talk page until an hour after that. If the editor had asked me to delete the remark on my talk page I would have done so without arguing about it because what would have been the point. They didn’t, the sh*t hit the fan (sure brought a lot of traffic to my talk page), and now I am arguing. What I wrote is neither racist nor sexist/lookist (whatever), not even borderline, and I haven’t added any false or defamatory information to the Klacik page. Either way? You don’t know anything about me, so please don’t make any assumptions about me. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I think the issue is that if you were quoting someone, the use of quotation marks or a similar identifier on your talk page would have cleared up any misunderstandings. As it is, it looks as if those are your own ideas. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 23:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Space4Time3Continuum2x, why are you angry with me? I am expressing concerns about CharlesShirley's attitude, and you seem to attack me because my concerns aren't the exact same as yours? I've made no assumptions about you, perhaps you've made some of your own? Waggie (talk) 07:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on my comments. Touché about the assumptions. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 23:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- This turned out to be a classic case of WP:GRENADE, it would seem. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Proposal: Boomerang block or TBAN for CharlesShirley
- proposal it has been 4 days since @CharlesShirley: opened this thread and 4 days (plus some) since they made egregious claims, cast aspersions and created personal attacks and have still failed to substantiate a single one of them, as they continue to edit and ignore the mess they've made here. I am proposing this thread be closed with a block or a topic ban given this users past conduct and inability to collaborate in areas where AP2 is involved. GRINCHIDICAE🎄 16:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support: I've created a sub-section for this following Prax's proposal. CharlesShirley has been both pinged in this discussion and active on Wikipedia, but has not responded to requests for evidence regarding their accusations against Praxidicae. CharlesShirley stated: "...[Praxidicae and Space4Time3Continuum2x] have expressed a hatred and animus against her and Omarosa Manigault Newman, based upon their "look" and have called both of them "tokens"." CharlesShirley also stated: "[The discussion on Space4Time3Continuum2x's talk page] shows an antipathy toward the subject of the article, an animus that is ugly and unacceptable." and "...since both of them seem to have a hatred and antipathy toward the subject." While stating that Prax's complicity is because she "...did not tell S4T3C2x to take down the comments, have them removed." Praxidicae is under no obligation to call out other editors on their behavior (correct or not), and should not be attacked based on the behavior of other editors. Additionally, per WP:BATTLEGROUND, Wikipedia editors are expected to remain civil and professional even when they find another editor's behavior to be objectionable. I personally think a TBAN from AP2 would be most appropriate here, since they do seem to have the most difficulty in maintaining a constructive attitude in this particular topic area. Waggie (talk) 20:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
disruptive editing by user:Mugun.cjb
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Mugun.cjb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hi! I think Mugun.cjb may not be fully aware of Wiki conventions on discussion and secondary sources. LeoFrank had reverted certain edits on Coimbatore International Airport which relied on another wiki page while providing feedback. However, user:Mugun.cjb undid the edits while posting certain defensive comments on both pages of user:LeoFrank and mine.
Special:MobileDiff/994352746 Disruptive revert Special:MobileDiff/994352491 Response by Mugun.cjb Special:MobileDiff/994353150 My feedback Special:MobileDiff/994353383 Response by Mugun.cjb to me
Hope @Mugun.cjb: would spend some time to understand WP:5P and continue contributing to the project collaboratively. Vikram Vincent 08:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- response by user:Mugun.cjb
- Mugun.cjb (talk) 08:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is false reporting.
- What change I have done is RIGHT.
- Alliance air wikipage lists Coimbatore as one of destinations. In Chennai airport page also Coimbatore airport is listed on Allaince air destinations. Alliance air Coimbatore-Chennai ia a pre-Covid flight, it will resume once 100% flights are allowed in India. In all airport wikipages pre-Covid flights are retained. In Coimbatore airport page it is removed by someone and I have added it to bring uniformity in all wikipages.
- I have a number of issues to register here on Coimbatore airport wikipage which is "KEPT OUTDATED" for years. I will do it later. Mugun.cjb (talk) 05:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hi @Mugun.cjb: I understand your enthusiasm to keep articles updated but an antagonistic approach is definitely not the way as it creates a very negative environment for collaborative work. There are different ways to express your opinions even strong ones and I'd urge you to develop those as they will benefit you personally in the long run. Best! Vikram Vincent 07:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- No. You dont need to understand or estimate enthusiasm of someone. Just talk about the updates and mistakes on wikupages.
- What antagonisstic approach ?
- If a page is not allowed for proper update, then no collaborative work is possible especially when false information is retained and right information is deleted.
- Wiki Administrators, I will post all details here. I need some time.Mugun.cjb (talk) 05:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mugun.cjb: As mentioned on your talk page, you need to sign your text when you post a discussion on either your talk pages, others' talk pages or discussion pages. There are certain protocols which you need to follow whether you like them or not. It does not matter if you are the authority, if there is no citation from a valid secondary source then that data does not go there. @Jetstreamer: and @LeoFrank: have reverted your edits and explained reasons. Now unless your intention is to get blocked, my simple good faith suggestion is to spend some time reading about the protocols before further editing Wikipedia. If you need help understanding I am happy to explain in detail. Best! Vikram Vincent 11:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Why not talk on the issue first? Why diverting it? This is my first complaint.
- ""Alliance air wikipage lists Coimbatore as one of destinations. In Chennai airport page also Coimbatore airport is listed on Allaince air destinations. Alliance air Coimbatore-Chennai ia a pre-Covid flight, it will resume once 100% flights are allowed in India. In all airport wikipages pre-Covid flights are retained. In Coimbatore airport page it is removed by someone and I have added it to bring uniformity in all wikipages""
- But this is reverted.
- Tell, on what basis Alliance air was removed from Coimbatore airport wikipage earlier ? Mugun.cjb (talk) 11:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mugun.cjb what is your secondary source for this data? Also have a look at the way i have indented your content and then mine. Vikram Vincent 12:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I will start a new complaint thread here. Hope it will be easier to understand how Coimbatore airport page was purposely kept "OUTDATED" . I will take few days to post it, Mugun.cjb (talk) 05:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mugun.cjb the "==" implies heading. Please stop adding those and follow the conventions already established.
- You have not responded to my question of the secondary source to support your assertion and hence the rest of your claims are moot.
- Feel free to start a complaint but refrain from edit warring of which you have already been warned. Also, this edit message of yours, "I am suggesting the fools Jetstreamer and LeoFrank to try checking the AIrIndia website once. Ref: Booking engine & schedule page - from Special:MobileDiff/945239226 is not civil conversation to even express strong disagreement. Vikram Vincent 06:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
The link you have posted is not opening. Not an issue. Because you didn't understand what I am claiming. I will include everything in my new post/thread. No time to continue here. Mugun.cjb (talk) 16:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mugun.cjb: I have removed the confusing link but I think we can close this issue here with the hope that you will be a bit more civil and collaborative in your approach. And please do read WP:5P and specifically WP:Civility because your approach appears to be like you are fighting rather than collaborating. Best! Vikram Vincent 16:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Wiki administrators
I am telling this is false reporting by some one who does not know what is happening in Coimbatore airport page. This user simply tries to support some of the existing editors without any clear understanding simply using one of my reply and seeing few lines of latest edit history. Mugun.cjb (talk) 04:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mugun.cjb: I don't know the the editors LeoFrank or Jetstreamer and in fact if you go to the talk page of LeoFrank(which is where I saw your rude comments) you will see a heated discussion about the article Christ University. Yes, I think this is appropriate time for admin intervention cause your immaturity and inability to read and understand feedback is becoming more evident. Peace! Vikram Vincent 06:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Mugun.cjb, I've blocked you for now from editing that article; please go to the article talk page and discuss the changes you want to make with the other editors working there. If your sourcing is good, they'll listen, but you can't simply edit-war because you think you're right. —valereee (talk) 15:07, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Jitazg and article on Zubeen Garg
- Jitazg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Zubeen Garg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I would like to propose that Jitazg be disallowed from editing Zubeen Garg. The editor has a clear conflict of interest as demonstrated here where after being asked if he knows Garg, he replies "i am in his fan club , i got the privilege to talk to him , and met him many times"
.
The user has demonstrated several times that their objectivity is severely hampered by their fandom/acquaintanceship with the subject and they have repeatedly demonstrated a desire to take ownership of the article.
- In these edits from July 2020, Jitazg seems to think the
|occupation=
and|instruments=
parameters are to list every single job the guy has had and every instrument he plays. I opened a discussion about these parameters being too bloated here and Jitazg's response was to lobby that "philanthropist" be added on top of the bloat I was complaining about. - In this edit from August 2020, Jitazg makes the claim that Garg has sung 20,000 songs. It is based on a quote found in this source, where Garg, irritated at a concert organiser says:
"I will sing whatever I wish to and you cannot dictate me. I have sung 16,000 songs in the last 25 years of my career, not you"
. Now, maybe that's literal, maybe it's an exaggeration, I don't know. But Jitazg inflated the figure. When I pressed Jitazg about it, they avoided answering why they inflated the number and they didn't clarify whether this represented songs performed or songs recorded. When you say that someone sang 20,000 songs, I think most people would interpret that to mean unique songs, and probably songs recorded vs. he got on stage and sang the entire Beatles catalog over and over. So, Jitazg provided unclear information, inaccurate data, vague content, and it tends to inflate Garg's importance. - In these 9 edits, user Unforgettableid makes a series of changes, chopping down the occupation parameter and similar content from the lede, as well as cutting a list of 16 languages Garg has performed in. While maybe that was a bit of an over-pruning, Jitazg reverted the entirety of it. Unforgettableid opened a discussion and cited MOS:ROLEBIO as the rationale for some parts of the trim. Jitazg's response was
"Sir would prefer the old long occupation list because he has done this all and i think we should give him that credit what he has contributed and he deserves it."
Oh, well sure, let's keep a bloated list of languages in the lede because Garg "deserves it". - Here Jitazg describes Garg as being considered "one of the most talented and versatile artiste." Um, clearly puffery, and absurdly vague--who called him that? Most talented/versatile in the state of Assam? In India? In the world? Fortunately Jitazg included a single reference. An interview. And apparently the interviewer (assuming it's not a press release) thinks Garg is one of the most talented/versatile in "showbiz". So, a specific statement was ambiguously presented by Jitazg to make Garg look bigger and better.
- In this edit, this edit and these edits, Jitazg makes the claim that Garg "received the title 'Luit Kontho' from the governor of Assam." Well that tends to sound like it was a state-issued award, right? Like a knightship or being given the Padma Shri. But when we look into it, here at a source Jitazg provided, it looks to me like the Gov handed Garg one of the Maya Media Awards, and when looking up that organisation, it's only had 2 ceremonies, one in 2017, one in 2019. Hardly notable. But Jitazg, who is devoted to Garg, considers it a regal bestowment, notes it prominently in the lede, and uses (misuses) the
|alias=
parameter to try to use it an official state-issued honourific. I opened a discussion, where I detailed all of this, but Jitazg decided not to reply and instead here attempts to explain to me what an honourific is, but completely ignoring the other points raised, before declaring"Here's nothing to elaborate more.
They've done that a few times as well--I'll point out multiple things wrong with the content they've submitted, they'll fix one issue and think that's the end of the discussion.
I think the above demonstrates adequately that Jitazg has extraordinary difficulty editing that article objectively or constructively. Note also that at Talk:Zubeen Garg, everybody else has to open the discussion. Jitazg never does. They don't appear to be here to collaborate, at least not with regard to Garg. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I assume you mean Jitazg, as JitazG does not exist. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC)}}
- @The Bushranger: I'm an idiot. Thanks for the tip. I have amended the above. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It happens to the best of us! - The Bushranger One ping only 23:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger: I'm an idiot. Thanks for the tip. I have amended the above. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I reluctantly support a topic ban pertaining to this article subject, I agree with Cyphoidbomb that Jitazg appears to be unable to write neutrally and collaboratively about Zubeen Garg, especially as they don't seem to understand the Wikipedia concept of reliable sources. Waggie (talk) 01:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- More examples: Here, Jitazg adds the claim: "Zubeen has recorded 10,000 songs till 2007, 15,000 till 2013, and it is said that he has recorded 20,000 till 2020.
- Sources provided?
Extended content
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- The point: None of the print sources say that Garg recorded this many songs, but Jitazg is comfortable making that claim because it elevates Garg. Jitazg inflated the 2007 figure from 9000 to 10,000 because it elevates Garg. Jitazg is comfortable using primary sources for controversial claims, and a garbage source like Nettv4u. At least they had the courtesy to mark the 20,000 claim as needing better sources. Even though they could have looked for those sources and waited to include them. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Edit-warring and generally uncollaborative behavior
BazingaFountain42 has been edit warring on multiple articles today, but without breaking 3RR. On Cabinet of Joe Biden:[148] [149]; on Antony Blinken: [150] [151] [152]; on Jennifer Granholm [153] [154] [155].
This comes after a long list of warnings (talk page) and a previous editwarring block this month (block log). I think action is needed here to prevent further disruption. Giraffer munch 15:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- I should defend myself. On the first article, Cabinet of Joe Biden, I made a post on the talk page about whether or not there should be a new categorization for nominees that haven't been officially announced, but have been reported. The general consensus was to simply put "TBA" where the day they were announced should be. I was following consensus. On the second article, Antony Blinken, I made a mistake. I was confused why it had him as the presumptive nominee, when for every other one of Biden's nominees, it had them as simply the "nominee". Furthermore, "presumptive" implied that, while it wasn't official, it could be confirmed, when Blinken's nomination is official and has been for a while. I kept editing, however, I realized that since my computer had an extension that changed every instance of "Trump" to "Drumpf", so I immediately removed it and corrected the edit. Finally, on the third article, Jennifer Granholm, at first, I was edit warring, but then I immediately realized that it should be resolved on a talk page, so I did that. The consensus was that we should wait until it's official, and I did. It was someone else that put her back as the nominee. BazingaFountain42 (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Extended discussion between BazingaFountain42 and I, which frankly, is going nowhere. Giraffer munch 18:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
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I'm more concerned with the article Antony Blinken. We've got Nominee in the infoboxes of the bio articles of those people that Biden has chosen for his cabinet (who require Senate confirmation) & yet there's always a dispute at that 'one' bio article (Blinken) over whether it should be Nominee or Presumptive nominee. Why is the Blinken article being treated differently from the others? Need more eyes there, folks. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Jennifer Granholm article does not include "nominee" in the infobox, and so you are making false claims about supposed consistency between articles. Also, an RfC at BLPN about Anthony Blinken was split between "presumptive nominee" (or similar language) and removing the infobox entirely (both of which BazingaFountain42 has edit warred to prevent in the Blinken article). GoodDay, you have been edit warring on these articles along with BazingaFountain42 to impose your view that infoboxes should be updated to include nominations before they are official, despite that position only receiving the support of one other person in the RfC. Your hostile attitude in the RfC was not helpful either. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't edited the Blinken article for days, out of frustration with your reverts. Again, why aren't you posing your 'reverts' on the other bio articles-in-question? PS - Granholm hasn't been announced as a cabinet nominee, yet. GoodDay (talk) 01:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Long-term, on-going history of abuse against MOS and other guidelines
- Mortal Aphrodite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I am here to report Mortal Aphrodite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as a long-time abuser of Wikipedia MOS and guidelines. User has received multiple warnings—ranging from June 2019 to December 2020. User continues to violate MOS:ACCESS on concert tour articles, predominately, for their own preferred edit, as well as continues to ignore WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE in favour of adding in unsourced content and original research. User previously received two blocks for disruptive editing in this same fashion—the first in December 2019 and second in February 2020, and, since then, has continued their pattern of behaviour. User also refuses to acknowledge their warnings, use an edit summary or even explain why they are making the edits they have been making for the past 19 months, if not longer. It has become clear this user is not here to edit constructively or in a collaborative way. The following pages are where either their most notable or most recent habits of this have happened (listed in alphabetical order):
- The 1989 World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Blond Ambition World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Head Above Water Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Madame X Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- The MDNA Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- State of the World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Sticky & Sweet Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Taylor Swift's Reputation Stadium Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Continued reports to the AIV fail to happen, so naturally, ANI is the next step. livelikemusic (TALK!) 17:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mortal Aphrodite is against updating concert tour articles to follow WP:ACCESS goals and has been reverting/restoring them to earlier, non-compliant versions. They have been repeatedly reverted and advised/warned to no effect. On this one issue, this has been going since May 2020 and involves most of the articles listed above plus several more. They have not participated in any of the project discussions[156][157][158] and they usually provide no edit summaries/explanations. Their editing on this issue is similar to the blocked users Tape2020 (talk · contribs), Fvcu (talk · contribs), and several IPs 98.213.238.206 (talk · contribs). 2601:802:8300:A280:A86E:A14F:17AA:2D8D (talk · contribs), 96.41.254.88 (talk · contribs), etc. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Ojorojo and Livelikemusic: Can either or both of you please provide diffs that show the problematic edit(s), along with an explanation of what specifically they did wrong, i.e. which accessibility guideline they contravened? And if there are any other edits that are glaringly problematic, please link to those and note what the problem is. Thank you. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mortal Aphrodite changed concert tour article tables that were updated to follow MOS:DTAB (incorporated into WP:CONCERT#Tables, specifically use of
! scope="row"
and no column headers in the middle of the table), which were reverted usually with an edit summary advising of project consensus and WP guidelines:- The Girlie Show World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 24/5/20[159]
- Madame X Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 15/10/20[160]
- On the Run Tour (Beyoncé and Jay-Z) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 17/10/20[161]
- The Mrs. Carter Show World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 19/10/20[162]
- Fearless Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 21/11/20[163] & 15/12/20[164] (twice on same article)
- Sticky & Sweet Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 14/12/20[165]
- The 1989 World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 15/12/20[166]
- Speak Now World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 15/12/20[167]
- The Red Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 15/12/20[168]
- Taylor Swift's Reputation Stadium Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) 15/12/20[169]
- I have changed these tables so that they are MUCH easier to read than dividing each leg into its own table. There are DOZENS of concert tour articles that have tables like the ones I've made, such artists as: Pink, Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Elton John, Cher, U2, Selena Gomez, Ed Sheeran, Ariana Grande, and so on. These tables are easier to read and understand. These new changes are very difficult, one could look no further than The Mrs. Carter Show World Tour (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), which is a mess and has a column for each continent, rather than a row. When and why this decision to change these ables is unbeknown to me, and for my first edit of a table, if someone had a problem with it, they should've sent me a link to the forum where the decision was made. Please compare the tables on the articles listed above to any of the tables in the concert tour articles of the musicians I mentioned.
- —Mortal Aphrodite (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2020
- Over the last several months, discussions regarding changes to concert tables have been initiated at:
- My edits that Mortal Aphrodite reverted/changed included in the edit summaries:
- "updated tables as per WP:CONCERTS#Tables, see Madonna project talk"
- "updated table as per WP:CONCERTS#Tables, see Beyonce project talk"
- "updated as per WP:CONCERT TOUR#Tables (see project talk [linked to WikiProject Taylor Swift])"
- Additionally, my reverts of Mortal Aphrodite included in the summaries:
- "rv unexplained changes against consensus and WP guidelines; see also WP:OVERLINKS"
- "restored correct table format (see WP:WikiProject Taylor Swift#Tour articles & access)"
- For Mortal Aphrodite to claim that they were not aware of the discussions and reasons for these changes is hard to believe. Input for updating The Mrs. Carter Show World Tour article was solicited at WT:WikiProject Beyoncé#Beyoncé tour articles & access:
All the tour articles are now updated, except for I Am... World Tour and The Mrs. Carter Show World Tour. These tours include some one- or two-city concerts in different continents; using separate tables for these would produce too many or overly complicated tables. Propose to keep the current one-table format that these two use, but move the continents to a column as follows: [example] —Ojorojo (talk) 18:15, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
- No one replied, but ten days after the update was made, an IP essentially undid it (with no edit summary); they were reverted with the summary: "rv unexplained changes that don't follow WP:CONCERTS#Tables, see project Beyonce talk; similar to edits by blocked user". Mortal Aphrodite later undid the update, also with no edit summary; they had the opportunity to express their concerns, but chose not to.
- Several recent concert tours GAs use the table format outlined at WP:CONCERTS#Tables: The Cry of Love Tour, Hooligans in Wondaland Tour, Blond Ambition World Tour, and the GANs: The Doo-Wops & Hooligans Tour and The 1989 World Tour. Adapting the format for older articles will take time and may require some modification, but to throw it all out is not a solution. Unfortunately, Mortal Aphrodite has not shown any interest in working cooperatively and continues their pattern of ignoring consensus and basic WP policies and guidelines.
- —Ojorojo (talk) 15:17, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Major problem with User:William Allen Simpson
Would like to bring to the admins attention about William Allen Simpson. Over the last week, this user has attempted to undermine this afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Impeachment resolution against Mike DeWine, and creating personal attacks toward me with threat of "Rfc to remove my editing power" (View the threat here.).
Starting with the first point: undermining the Afd. So the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Impeachment resolution against Mike DeWine Afd took place between December 1-December 8. The user was not a part of the Afd. A similar Afd, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Impeachment resolution against Gretchen Whitmer was created a few hours before the previous afd was closed. The second afd (Gretchen Whitmer afd) is where this user discovered the first Afd (Mike DeWine Afd). So the Mike DeWine Afd ended in a 7 editor unanimous agreement to merge. During the Gretchen Whitmer Afd (Lasted between December 7-December 15), William Allen Simpson and me had a very long discussion related to the article (Discussion was on December 10). He attempted to claim that there was no consensus to merge during the Mike DeWine Afd and that all 6 of the other editors (Excluding me) had voted to delete. He refused to accept that the information was deemed notable and would not accept that Afd's outcome was "Merge", (Admin Missvain was the closing admin in both Afd's.). During the Gretchen Whitmer Afd, William Allen Simpson created This noticeboard which he called "Non-notable impeachment filing nonsense" on Talk:Mike DeWine. On December 15, William Allen Simpson went against the Afd and removed the impeachment resolution information without discussing it on the talk page. (I am not sure how to add a revision via wikilink, so here is the URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_DeWine&type=revision&diff=994315517&oldid=993648732). All of these edits tell me that he is determined to undermine the process Wikipedia has put into place, aka the Afd process.
The second point I made was about a threat toward me. In the currently on-going RFC, William Allen Simpson made a threat toward me saying "Finally, this attack was coordinated by an interested party with an external site devoted to the topic. Although it was eventually disclosed on his user page, it was not disclosed in every argument (such as this). There should be a further RFC suspending the editing privileges of Elijahandskip (talk · contribs), a self-proclaimed senior in high school, who has demonstrated a meager knowledge of law, legislative procedure, and civics in general. But a prodigious amount of Wikilawyering". The threat toward me is highly uncalled for. I have made tons of attempts to reach out and talk to the user, including here on his talk page. I have received no reply to any of my attempts to reach out and I have been trying to do damage control from all the attempts to threaten me he has created. Point being The User is unwilling to reply and discuss in a reasonable conversation.
Wanting to state, the website he is upset about has been declared on my user page since December 3rd, which is the day it was created. I met this user on December 8th, so as far as I am thinking, the website has been declared through all of our conversations.
I would like this user either highly warned with a block to some editing topics or a ban for the highly unnecessary threat. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:30, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, after reading your blog & your alternative Wikipedia website (and Twitter account) and seeing your view that mainstream media, or what Wikipedia would consider "reliable sources", is biased, I'm not sure how to respond to your complaint. William Allen Simpson should respond to any comments you made on his talk page but I'm also questioning your position as an editor on Wikipedia. The outspoken political stance you take and your negative opinions of Gretchen Whitmer and Kamala Harris and as well as the view that Wikipedia is sometimes guilty of "inciting racism" has caught me off-guard. You might rethink whether you want to publicize these outside efforts on your user page. They certainly color my opinion of your competency as an editor. Liz Read! Talk! 00:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Liz here. Forking content from a part of the project that falls under sanctions, especially content that the community has decided to delete, onto an external site and then trying to influence the outcome of a discussion for that topic is a huge red flag for me. I don't see anything wrong with William Allen Simpson calling it out. SportingFlyer T·C 00:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Liz thank you for your comment. Every editor has an opinion. I see what you mean by whether I should have it on my user page or not. Back in October, I accidentally mentioned the blog during a massive Rfc discussion (Involved 50+ editors and at the end I did a snipping tool and it was 14 pages in length to print). At that point in time, it wasn't declared so I was in trouble with other editors. At that point in time, I decided to declare it on my user page. I consider it to be the same as a person's opinion. No one can ever say they are "unbiased" as everyone has an opinion. I really do feel bad that it colored your opinion of me. I really have tried and have strived since that incident to edit with a neutral standpoint on Wikipedia. I really didn't want a problem to arise from it again, so I will be rethinking about that declaration. To the admins, Please do not let this blog/opinion writing dictate what you believe about my competency as an editor. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- SportingFlyer thank you for your comment. I actually don't mind him calling it out. The point I tried to say in the original reasoning for this noticeboard was the fact that he stated it without attempting to talk with me about it. The fact that he has created multiple discussions about this and won't respond to my messages unless he is defending a "new discussion" is the main problem. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Also, the part about stuff the community decided to delete being on an external site. I haven't edited the website is a few days. I will go through and make sure anything quoted from Wikipedia is still a viable quote. Content about the "Impeachment Resolution" being deleted actually is irrelevant. I did original research, so technically, the website has no bearing on Wikipedia decisions (Aside from a possible invalid quote, which I am going to check on). Elijahandskip (talk) 00:45, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- E&J, I'm a little flummoxed by the Wikipedia inciting racism blog. I helped create that FAQ. The reason we created it was because we had so many newbies coming in to ask why we had to call out that Chauvin was white. The reason we have to call out that Chauvin is white is that reliable sources think it's important enough to mention it literally in every article. Is what editors here consider to be reliable sources something you can't get behind? I would understand why the average non-WP editor wouldn't understand this basic fact about how WP is edited, but I'm very surprised that you wouldn't understand this. I'm also concerned that you put your "title" on that blog, seeming to indicate you're somehow representing Wikipedia in some official capacity. I think you should remove that. —valereee (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment related to discussion. The political blog has actually been removed. Also, there is no more directly deleted Wikipedia quotes on the website, which is still declared on my user page. Valereee, Liz, and SportingFlyer. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:55, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Now that issues with me are in general solved, with all respect, could the discussion move back to the original reasons for this noticeboard? (Not meant in any sort of way except for the literal meaning). Elijahandskip (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- The more I think about this, the more unsettled I am. You write "I would not even consider stating any information about a person's race in any of the things I write" ...so, if you're writing about Rosa Parks, do you mention she was black, or is she just someone who got cranky on a bus? If you're writing about a lynching, do we mention it was a black man who was lynched by a white mob because someone thought he winked at a white woman, or is that all beside the point? Was Obama our first black president, or just #44? How do you write about the impact of Jackie Robinson if you don't mention his race? I'm just...—valereee (talk) 01:03, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Where did you read that? I believe that was on the blog (Which was deleted 10 minutes ago, so that would be completely irrelevant if it is on the blog). Elijahandskip (talk) 01:08, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, on the blog. But it's not irrelevant if it's what you believe. —valereee (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I wrote that I think 2 months ago. My views have changed. I also hadn't wrote on the blog in almost a month. I don't believe that anymore. Also, it is irrelevant as it was deleted before you posted the comment. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I want to commend you on deleting the blog. What's caused you to change your views in the last two months? SportingFlyer T·C 01:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, totally understandable that someone your age can change their belief system quickly as they mature. You now think that the mention of race is okay in articles where reliable sources consider race a factor? Because that's the relevant issue, here. —valereee (talk) 01:24, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah. I agree that for historical purposes, stating race is ok. I still have an opinion about current things (like a breaking news article) stating something like "black man shot by white man". Because, what is the actual value in stating that in a headline other than for clicks. Saying "Man shot by police" would be less clicks for a news outlet, but would definatly be better in my opinion than stating "black/white" in a breaking news headline. After it is no longer a "breaking news/hot topic" event, then I consider stating the race to be ok. That is my new opinion. Hopefully that clears it up. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Elijahandskip, my apologies, but I'm going to keep pushing on this. When news outlets were reporting about Rosa Parks being arrested, on the day they reported it, was it important that they note she was black? Or is it only important that in retrospect we note it for historical purposes? Ditto the other examples. IMO the fact the person was black was just as worth noting on the day it happened as it is now. It's part of the story. It was part of the story when it happened. The fact George Floyd was black and Derek Chauvin is white is part of the story. —valereee (talk) 01:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Rosa parks was a different era with the social problems being slightly different. I see what you mean. I agree with you completely, however, today's media only uses race in headlines when it comes to "black shot by white". If the media used race in majority of headlines relating to inter-race shootings, then my opinion would be a 100% agree. My opinion isn't really about the fact that race is important to a story, it is more against how the media doesn't use race in some instances and does in others. That creates a version of racism IMO. Elijahandskip (talk) 02:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Elijahandskip, my apologies, but I'm going to keep pushing on this. When news outlets were reporting about Rosa Parks being arrested, on the day they reported it, was it important that they note she was black? Or is it only important that in retrospect we note it for historical purposes? Ditto the other examples. IMO the fact the person was black was just as worth noting on the day it happened as it is now. It's part of the story. It was part of the story when it happened. The fact George Floyd was black and Derek Chauvin is white is part of the story. —valereee (talk) 01:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah. I agree that for historical purposes, stating race is ok. I still have an opinion about current things (like a breaking news article) stating something like "black man shot by white man". Because, what is the actual value in stating that in a headline other than for clicks. Saying "Man shot by police" would be less clicks for a news outlet, but would definatly be better in my opinion than stating "black/white" in a breaking news headline. After it is no longer a "breaking news/hot topic" event, then I consider stating the race to be ok. That is my new opinion. Hopefully that clears it up. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I wrote that I think 2 months ago. My views have changed. I also hadn't wrote on the blog in almost a month. I don't believe that anymore. Also, it is irrelevant as it was deleted before you posted the comment. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, on the blog. But it's not irrelevant if it's what you believe. —valereee (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Where did you read that? I believe that was on the blog (Which was deleted 10 minutes ago, so that would be completely irrelevant if it is on the blog). Elijahandskip (talk) 01:08, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- The more I think about this, the more unsettled I am. You write "I would not even consider stating any information about a person's race in any of the things I write" ...so, if you're writing about Rosa Parks, do you mention she was black, or is she just someone who got cranky on a bus? If you're writing about a lynching, do we mention it was a black man who was lynched by a white mob because someone thought he winked at a white woman, or is that all beside the point? Was Obama our first black president, or just #44? How do you write about the impact of Jackie Robinson if you don't mention his race? I'm just...—valereee (talk) 01:03, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Now that issues with me are in general solved, with all respect, could the discussion move back to the original reasons for this noticeboard? (Not meant in any sort of way except for the literal meaning). Elijahandskip (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Elijahandskip: This user also appears to have falsely tagged redirects left behind for G10 speedy deletion. JJP...MASTER![talk to] JJP... master? 01:55, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Since the previous discussion wasn't over and I believe it is, any chance to have a discussion about the original noticeboard reasons? Elijahandskip (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, so the AfD: that wasn't a "unanimous agreement to merge". That was a consensus that instead of deleting, the info could be merged into Mike DeWine, even though all the info in the impeachment article was already in the DeWine article. That was not some sort of imprimatur. Consensus can change at any time, and the fact the article was merged instead of deleted really doesn't mean anything.
- The RfC. William Allen Simpson could be kinder, especially to younger editors. The fact E&S is a high school senior isn't a tick against them, it's a tick for them. We want young editors to become interested, and as long as they behave maturely, we welcome them. E&S and WAS, I would recommend the two of you discuss, and try to treat each other collegially. —valereee (talk) 01:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just also discovered this user said "because school children like Elijahandskip still rarely host political attack sites. Goodness gracious, hoping the world isn't going that way. But we may be heading to an RFC for banning Elijahandskip". This was stated on the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Mike DeWine, on December 15. I really am worried about the user. Something like a warning needs to be issued at least. Elijahandskip (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm happy to warn both of you. William Allen Simpson, please adhere to our policies re: civility. There's no need to call high school seniors, some of whom are actually adults, "school children". IMO that's an obvious attempt to denigrate and tweak. Elijahandskip, you appear to have a fairly strong bias in the area of race in the US that may make you likely to push certain points of view. I suggest you default to using the Walt Street Journal as your reality check on whether or not race is pertinent in a given article. If WSJ is noting someone's race, you can be assured that is not "creating a version of racism." It's acknowledging the racial element in the story. And both of you stop spamming discussions. That's disruptive. —valereee (talk) 17:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just a note, if anyone's going to use the Wall Street Journal as a reality check, just make sure it's the Journal's news reporting, which is justly acclaimed, and not its editorials, which can be seriously biased. A good doublecheck would be to look at The New York Times or The Washington Post to see what they do. While both are mildly liberal editorially, their news operations, like that of the Wall Street Journal, are first class. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Agree, opinion should always be taken as opinion, even when it's the editorial board of a completely reliable source. —valereee (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just a note, if anyone's going to use the Wall Street Journal as a reality check, just make sure it's the Journal's news reporting, which is justly acclaimed, and not its editorials, which can be seriously biased. A good doublecheck would be to look at The New York Times or The Washington Post to see what they do. While both are mildly liberal editorially, their news operations, like that of the Wall Street Journal, are first class. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
This is now the second time that this user's blog has presented an issue on Wikipedia. Contrary to his claim earlier in this thread that editors were concerned because the blogging wasn't disclosed, the problem was about potential canvassing of outside voices to the discussion of a contentious issue and the naming of specific editors alongside claims those editors were biased (I was one of the editors named); it's getting more difficult to assume good faith with that sort of misrepresentation. There needs to be a formal caution here around the blogging; anyone can blog about whatever they want, but if you want to be part of Wikipedia, you do need to be mindful of WP:OUTING and WP:CANVASS, among others. I don't see that those have been violated yet, but the reappearance of the blog as an issue for this user is a concern. Grandpallama (talk) 18:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- During the Speedy deletion nomination for Impeachment resolution against Gretchen Whitmer, a number of IP addresses quickly made a coordinated attack on the Talk page. I'd not known about Elijahandskip's blog, and had no idea that he was possibly canvassing. Yesterday, Doug Weller helpfully deleted the Talk again, but it will be visible to administrators.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 21:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- For the record, the blog is fully deleted and shouldn't be a problem every again. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Nothing is ever fully deleted. —valereee (talk) 15:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- It is deleted to the point where I can no longer edit it or have any influence on it. The URL also are deleted. That is as good as it can be now a days. Elijahandskip (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- For the record, the blog is fully deleted and shouldn't be a problem every again. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- During the Speedy deletion nomination for Impeachment resolution against Gretchen Whitmer, a number of IP addresses quickly made a coordinated attack on the Talk page. I'd not known about Elijahandskip's blog, and had no idea that he was possibly canvassing. Yesterday, Doug Weller helpfully deleted the Talk again, but it will be visible to administrators.
It might help if @Elijahandskip: & @William Allen Simpson: communicated directly to each other, TBH. GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @GoodDay: This is not an interpersonal issue. I'm one of those who "unmasked" (many years ago) to edit under my actual published name to help establish credibility for Wikipedia. Elijahandskip's Wikilawyering is just another example why so many of my fellow subject matter experts no longer find contributing worth the effort.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have reached out to him on his talk page two times during all these discussions. Still hasn't replied to me. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Recommend this report be closed, as it's mostly a content dispute. GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
File:Disney Junior New Logo.png
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Wgtniyrteuiqfhdrpc (talk · contribs)
This 'new user' with less that 20 edits and a keyboard smash username who seems to know how to upload logos with proper rationales uploaded File:Disney Junior New Logo.png, which they claim is the 'new logo' of the network, but outside more defined Mickey Mouse ears in the tittle, the vast majority of viewers (or more importantly, the network's pre-school target audience) would not discern that change from the SVG flat image currently in the Disney Junior article. As I don't want to hit 3RR because they keep adding the image, I'd like to know if this stirs up any red flags to anyone else. Nate • (chatter) 03:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mrschimpf: Definitely fishy, and I have issued a stern warning on their talk page about the edit-warring. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
2601:801:4100:E1F0:0:0:0:0/64: Attempt 2
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- 2601:801:4100:E1F0:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Entire edit history has been disruptive redirect overwrites and unsourced changes in the same subject area: mostly children's television. One of the IPs in the range has already been warned of using multiple IPs. No discussion from the IP when edits are contested, either via their User talk pages or via article talk pages.
This is a repost of a previous unreplied thread of this IP, archived here. Since that report, the IP has continued the same behavior described above and has ignored reminders of their report here at ANI, despite multiple attempts at different IPs in the range. Jalen Folf (talk) 06:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's a lot of reverted edits. Blocked for a month. —ScottyWong— 07:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Nebzpogi
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nebzpogi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user, aside from making disruptive edits, left a message at the help desk that threatened litigious action against a user and Wikipedia itself. I've asked them to recant their statement but they have not done so as of submitting this report. I guess an indefinite block would be the most appropriate in this case? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 07:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked for legal threats, although based on the few edits they've made, they probably could have also been blocked for WP:NOTHERE as well. —ScottyWong— 07:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Kridha
- Kridha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Radha (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The editor is constantly POV-pushing on the page Radha and has shown traits of WP:OWNERSHIP. The user has repeatedly removed a WP:RS (which contradicts his POV) without providing a RS to contest [170]Edit summary as "Seriously, please read more reference and do little bit of your own research about Swaminiji of Pushtimarg. Infact, talk with their people belong to that Pushtimarg". I have requested him to provide a RS backing his POV as the only/ most recognised view, but the user has put no effort on that front. Kridha has contended "I can't help if for people like you reference paper become more important than old scriptures having 1000+ pages on Radha Krishna" [171]. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- The page has been subject to a slow-motion edit war for weeks now. I suggest reverting to the last stable version (which I'd say is either Redtigerxyz's edit of 10 October or my minor copyedit ten days later) and locking the page, pending discussion on talk.
- Redtigerxyz already opened a discussion on the talk page, with which Kridha has yet to engage. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Besides the article talk, an discussion on User_talk:Kridha is ongoing. Dāsānudāsa, I will prefer 17 December version, which incorporates Kridha's POV too and is more referenced, has more referenced material in Description section in particular; however I am okay with the 10 October lead (before edit war, primarily Kridha contested the lead) and article body as of 17 December. Also, User:245CMR has added references and attributed to the balancing of POV in the 17 December version. Redtigerxyz Talk 07:01, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
It would seem to me that discussion as to which version of the article should take precedence should occur on the talk page of the article. The issue here that is appropriate to ANI is the slow-motion edit war, and the apparent unwillingness for certain parties to engage in discussion at the article's talk page. "Discussing" by reverting and snarky edit summaries isn't acceptable on Wikipedia. If Kridha (or anyone else) isn't willing to collaborate effectively with other editors on the content of the article, then they shouldn't be editing it and a p-block or TBAN should be placed to enforce that until they are ready to collaborate effectively. Waggie (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive editing on Goran Jevtić article by Moelscene/Lancaster10
- Moelscene (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Lancaster10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Goran Jevtić (actor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
User:Moelscene is continuously re-inserting that Goran Jevtić (actor) is a "convicted sex offender" in the introductory sentence of the article. Diff 1 Diff 2 Diff 3
This, after he's been reverted by three different editors. Diff 1 Diff 2 Diff 3 Diff 4
In the midst of his edit-warring, an IP reverted back to his version, which suggests he was editing logged out to prevent from breaking the 3RR. Diff here
The last revert came from User:Lancaster10, who has the same pattern of editing and edited the same pages as Moelscene such as Anna Nicole Smith & Milo Yiannopoulos (see their contributions). So he is likely socking in order to continue to push this version. Diff here
It's been explained to him why this is inappropriate due to WP:BLP concerns and why the extreme comparisons with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby don't hold up. @GregorB: has attempted to discuss it with him on his user page as well as the article's talk page but he has refused to engage. Instead he's attacked the involved editors' ethnicity. Diff here Clearly not here to build an encyclopedia, engage in honest and good-faith editing and follow Wikipedia guidelines. Only interested in forcefully pushing this piece of information into the lead sentence. --2605:8D80:6C1:2B36:113A:6959:16EA:B4EB (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Also, many sources state that the victim in this case was 16 years old and not 15, but he is also pushing that he was 15 instead of 16, despite the contradicting information. --2605:8D80:6C1:2B36:113A:6959:16EA:B4EB (talk) 18:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Let me just note that this may be a matter for WP:BLPN. GregorB (talk) 18:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @GregorB: Should I remove it from here then and post it there instead? Thanks. --2605:8D80:6C1:C82D:5511:78B3:EE9C:DFFD (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's probably not too important, but strictly speaking it's the right forum, so yes. GregorB (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Um, actually I'm not sure, it says "cases where editors are repeatedly adding defamatory or libelous material", not strictly the case here, as the factual correctness isn't disputed. Let's leave it here then. GregorB (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a little iffy. But the issue is primarily the user's conduct so I agree I'll leave it here. --2605:8D80:6C1:C82D:5511:78B3:EE9C:DFFD (talk) 19:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @GregorB: Should I remove it from here then and post it there instead? Thanks. --2605:8D80:6C1:C82D:5511:78B3:EE9C:DFFD (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've changed the age from 15 to 16 as that's what the removed source says (I've put the source back). Now, that means User:Lancaster10 removed that source, and then changed the text from 16 to 15. That, to me, flags up someone who shouldn't be editing a BLP, so I will take action here via a partial block. Edit: the other source, added by Moelscene, also says 16, and also uses "illegal sexual acts" instead of "sexual abuse", so I've tweaked to follow the source per BLP. Black Kite (talk) 20:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, but Moelscene should probably be blocked as well since I think it's the same user. "Convicted sex offender" should also be removed from the first sentence, since this is a contentious label and only applied maybe in extreme examples such as Weinstein and Cosby. It's not what he's known for and there's no consensus for adding that to the first sentence. His conviction is already covered in the lead and body. --2605:8D80:6C0:11BF:20C1:A0C:FC3:C6BA (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I would suggest (a) raising a WP:SPI if you believe the two are the same editor, and trying WP:BLPN as regards the first sentence. My inclination would be to agree with you, but having taken admin action here I'm not going to edit the article further, having fixed the immediate BLP issue of false information. Black Kite (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I used a valid source of information when I mentioned victim's age as 15, Serbian state newspaper Republika. (I have other sources to prove he was 15 when he was abused.) Anonymous user (who reported me) mentioned victim's age 16, Radio Sarajevo as the source. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact he's a sex offender. I mentioned on GJ talk page that people close to him, most likely PR agents, constantly tried to whitewash his biography regarding sex crime conviction. Not to mention the intimidation of naysayers. It's happening since he was sentenced and convicted in 2019; in the era of #MeToo! It's really sad and insulting to all victims of the violence and abuse. Moelscene (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- A few sources say 15, most of them from what I gathered said he was 16. Anyway, that's not the issue. The issue is you pushing to add "convicted sex offender" to the first sentence, after it's been explained to you why it's problematic to do so. Adding that requires consensus and it's not something usually done in BLP articles. Using Weinstein and Cosby as justifications for adding it is ridiculous since those are extreme cases and warranted given the abundance of accusations (not merely for one case of "illegal sexual acts" but many sexual assaults/rapes) as well as convictions. None of us are interested in removing information about his conviction. I think we all agree it belongs in the article, and it's both in the lead and body. Yet, as one user already pointed out on the talk page, it might even be undue for the lead itself. --2605:8D80:6C0:5113:5163:EF45:F6A4:DAB7 (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- The sources that were in the article (which Lancaster10 removed) gave the age as 16. If other RS give the age as 15, then perhaps the age should be removed completely. Black Kite (talk) 09:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, but Moelscene should probably be blocked as well since I think it's the same user. "Convicted sex offender" should also be removed from the first sentence, since this is a contentious label and only applied maybe in extreme examples such as Weinstein and Cosby. It's not what he's known for and there's no consensus for adding that to the first sentence. His conviction is already covered in the lead and body. --2605:8D80:6C0:11BF:20C1:A0C:FC3:C6BA (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Rob.weldemichael introducing false information on ethnic groups and religion in Eritrea and Ethiopia
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Rob.weldemichael (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user is repeatedly introducing seemingly false information, in particular demographic information, in articles about Eritrea and Ethiopia, and groups in these countries. These statistics often disagree with the source, and I strongly suspect they are false where there are no sources.
I believe that this topic is covered by the Horn of Africa discretionary sanctions, if that's relevant.
The entirety of the user's edits seem to be on this topic. Thanks, Ainlina(box)? 22:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
The population of Amahara people is 14-19 million as per 2020. 27% would be 31.4 million as of Wordlometers Ethiopian population statistics.
Sources: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ethiopia-population/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob.weldemichael (talk • contribs) 23:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- (non admin comment} Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Horn of Africa#Final decision applies. Narky Blert (talk) 06:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- (non admin comment)Regarding Worldometers these discussions at WP:RSN are of interest [174][175].Sjö (talk) 09:11, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- The user only has 25 edits, not a single one was good (and given their persistent repacing Tigrinya with Tigrigna I am tempted to call this vandalism-only account), and their reaction at the talk page was "I will never stop". A poster case of WP:NOTHERE, blocked indefinitely. May be they can post a reasonable unblock request, in which case I am not going to object against an unblock.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:57, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Reoccurring Vandalism and edit wars of a previously banned User.
Hello, A few weeks ago User:Callanecc was the admin who partially banned User:Kami2018 for his disruptive and extreme edit warring on the article of the Khalji dynasty[176]. He was having an extreme edit war against several users because he did not want to have the term "Afghan" in the article. Since the ban his behavior did not improve, he does the exact same edits on the Khalji Dynasty[177] and does not engage in any talk for his edits either. This vandalizing behavior of him wanting to remove the term "Afghan" from historical articles is what his Wikipedia account is all about, he vandalizes articles related to the Pashtun people with the sole purpose of removing the term "Afghan" from the article[178][179][180][181][182][183][184][185][186][187][188][189][190]. This is very disruptive, the list goes on and on but I thought this was enough, you can further look into his edits, since his account was created the vast majority of his edits are simply removing the term "Afghan" from articles. The term "Afghan" is the historic term for the Pashtun people and used as a synonym, this should be the most basic knowledge for someone who thinks he has the right to edit war his non-historical POV on articles by vandalizing them. I would really appreciate an intervention regarding this issue, its simply going way too far,a behavior like this should not be tolerated on Wikipedia . --Xerxes931 (talk) 00:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Per the definition of Afghan, Kami2018's edits does not look disruptive or POV-pushing unless Kami2018 removes sourced terms and replaces them with unsourced ones. Afghan has both pre-modern and modern usages/definitions. So does Kami2018 remove and change sourced content? --Wario-Man (talk) 07:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that Afghan has both modern and pre-modern meanings, maybe I didn’t really word my comment well, but in a historic context Afghan refers to Pashtuns. He’s also removing sourced information which can be seen in his edits but also blindly just removing Afghan from every Pashtun-related empire. Just an example, Pashtun empires like the Lodhis or Suris, even the Durranis, are usually never referred to as “Pashtuns” in historic sources(mostly not even in modern sources) but rather as “Afghan”. Pashtun/Paxtun is rather the endonym which Pashtuns themselves use but is usually never used in a historic context, thus removing the term “Afghan” from those articles is clearly historical revisionism and going against the sources. I can add authentic sources for every single article of an empire or noble where he removed the term “Afghan” for them being Afghan if you want me to do that, I would just need a bit of time.--Xerxes931 (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Xerxes931: It was better to clarify the provided diffs/evidences; e.g. if Kami2018 removed a sourced info about ethnicity/background in this edit[191], then his edit is disruptive and problematic without a doubt. So if all of provided diffs are disruptive and POV-pushing, then I suggest topic ban, one month block (minimum), or a final warning by an admin. --Wario-Man (talk) 08:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that Afghan has both modern and pre-modern meanings, maybe I didn’t really word my comment well, but in a historic context Afghan refers to Pashtuns. He’s also removing sourced information which can be seen in his edits but also blindly just removing Afghan from every Pashtun-related empire. Just an example, Pashtun empires like the Lodhis or Suris, even the Durranis, are usually never referred to as “Pashtuns” in historic sources(mostly not even in modern sources) but rather as “Afghan”. Pashtun/Paxtun is rather the endonym which Pashtuns themselves use but is usually never used in a historic context, thus removing the term “Afghan” from those articles is clearly historical revisionism and going against the sources. I can add authentic sources for every single article of an empire or noble where he removed the term “Afghan” for them being Afghan if you want me to do that, I would just need a bit of time.--Xerxes931 (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Clearly a disruptive pattern. Going through the editor's last ban, I can clearly see that the editor is editing against sourced material. Looking at only edit: 172 & 170 clearly shows the motives which is removing the word "Afghan" everywhere. I think Xerxes931 did not word it well but the editor Kami2018 is clearly editing against sourced material without explanation. Casperti (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Clearly User:Xerxes931 needs to understand that references are very important and if there is no reference then a reference is needed to support the information. One such example of his behavior out of many is what he mentioned himself : [192] - Maybe User:Xerxes931 needs to look at the references and self revert himself as the references say otherwise. Reference in the article clearly states "They were, therefore, ″wrongly looked upon″ as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. They were looked down as non Turks by Turks." Thankyou Kami2018 (talk) 18:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is a complaint about an editor going around and removing mentions of Pashtuns as "Afghans", but if I remember correctly, these mentions were not always reliably sourced to begin with (or were sourced to texts that don't support them). – Uanfala (talk) 20:05, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Editor (GeographyInitiative) is ignoring consensus of RfC
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- Geographyinitiative (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Democratic Progressive Party (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
The editor in question, User:Geographyinitiative, began edit-warring back in September trying to get simplified characters removed from Democratic Progressive Party. The consensus is pretty clear, which is that this is already covered in the manual of style and that one should include both. The user tagged the entire page with a Template:POV template because of this matter and is reverting all edits that remove this template and bludgeoning all related discussions.
DrIdiot (talk) 02:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've formally closed the RfC, though it hardly needed it. Hope that helps. —valereee (talk) 15:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. They are still edit-warring, saying the "neutrality discussion" section needs to be closed. But it's not an RfC, it's just a section on the talk page, and it's unclear what it means to close it. Honestly, this person is clearly acting in bad faith at this point. DrIdiot (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's worth noting this is not the first time this user has been subjected to discipline for this exact issue. See block log. The user seems determined to re-litigate and bludgeon repeatedly and indefinitely until they get their way. DrIdiot (talk) 18:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- On cue, the editor has (link) "closed" his NPOV tag from September of 2020 and "reopened" it for December 2020. This editor will clearly do this indefinitely. It's exhausting. I won't revert his edits anymore but would really appreciate admin intervention. DrIdiot (talk) 19:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm requesting that User:Geographyinitiative give up his fight on this article and leave it alone for a while. If they don't do so they are risking a block for edit warring. He has admitted that his 'POV' issue is due to the use of simplified characters, a dispute that has now been settled by not one but *two* RfCs. EdJohnston (talk) 19:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
@DrIdiot: Though I did not see this thread on this noticeboard, given their disruption-free productive work elsewhere (i.e. when it doesn't involve Simplified characters in the three regions Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macao), I believe the AN3 thread I filed should be enough recourse for now. Consider it the last WP:ROPE before it becomes site-wide. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 19:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, I agree. Was not sure where to file. DrIdiot (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Geographyinitiative is now blocked indef per my closure at AN3. Would still offer unblock if they will agree to stop fighting against use of simplified characters at Democratic Progressive Party. There does not appear to be any gentler way of bringing this to an end. User would not accept my offer that he could walk away from this dispute. EdJohnston (talk) 22:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- And their unblock request is an exquisite example of WP:NOTTHEM. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Attacking other editors
- Jaredscribe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Jaredscribe has been attacking myself and other editors, accusing us of bias, accusing us of excluding them from editing and using "administrative power" (I don't know what that's about, I'm not an admin)...just generally combative in tone. I asked them to stop [193] and they're keeping on with it, [194]. I don't want to get into any drama with this editor, but they are being disruptive, I just want someone uninvolved to have a friendly word and ask them to please to stop as I'm having no luck. Thanks in advance. Bacondrum (talk) 08:01, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Warned for not assuming good faith. —valereee (talk) 14:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Valereee. Bacondrum (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- valereee Alleging an article of having bias is not a personal attack. Neither is pointing out a difference in privelege. I continue to assume good faith for all other editors. Accusing me (falsely) of personal attack and threatening my account with blockage, is what leads me - correctly I think - to no longer assume good faith about bacondrum. It is a Red herring I continue to allege that this article is stongly biased toward presentism and americanism - the POV that neither history nor the rest of the world matter. Once again, this is not a personal attack; to the extent that it is an "attack", it is aimed a editorial decisions, not at any particular editor's humanity or personal characteristics. It is a valid criticism that should be examined by conscientious editors. Jaredscribe (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe You didn’t allege the article had a bias, you alleged a perceived bias was deliberate. There is a gigantic difference in that, and it qualifies as assuming bad faith, and that is against policy, and you should stop. We all have biases. We recognize that. It doesn’t mean we use them in bad faith, it just means we have to try to overcome them. You did in fact assume bad faith/make a personal attack when you alleged deliberate bias. Also Bacondrum didn't threaten you, they warned you, which is what we do, generally multiple times, before someone else comes along and blocks you. —valereee (talk) 01:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- And I gave Jaredscribe a DS alert for American Politics on the 6th -if this doesn't stop a topic ban may be the only solution. Doug Weller talk 12:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe You didn’t allege the article had a bias, you alleged a perceived bias was deliberate. There is a gigantic difference in that, and it qualifies as assuming bad faith, and that is against policy, and you should stop. We all have biases. We recognize that. It doesn’t mean we use them in bad faith, it just means we have to try to overcome them. You did in fact assume bad faith/make a personal attack when you alleged deliberate bias. Also Bacondrum didn't threaten you, they warned you, which is what we do, generally multiple times, before someone else comes along and blocks you. —valereee (talk) 01:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- valereee Alleging an article of having bias is not a personal attack. Neither is pointing out a difference in privelege. I continue to assume good faith for all other editors. Accusing me (falsely) of personal attack and threatening my account with blockage, is what leads me - correctly I think - to no longer assume good faith about bacondrum. It is a Red herring I continue to allege that this article is stongly biased toward presentism and americanism - the POV that neither history nor the rest of the world matter. Once again, this is not a personal attack; to the extent that it is an "attack", it is aimed a editorial decisions, not at any particular editor's humanity or personal characteristics. It is a valid criticism that should be examined by conscientious editors. Jaredscribe (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Valereee. Bacondrum (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Warned for not assuming good faith. —valereee (talk) 14:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
User Ke an accusing me of bias and chauvinism
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The exact citation is "Your bias and chauvinism, low discussion ethics disqualifies you from judging states previously occupied by Russia", taken from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Hugo.arg reported by User:Ke an (Result: ). Would anybody please mind looking at the discussion and on my recent edits and see whether the definition is accurate. (I am not asking to close the 3RRN request, this is as far as I am concerned is a different story). For a bit of background, the only time Ke an was blocked, it was because they were edit-warring in an article on a Lithuanian Holocaust perpetrator removing the info on Holocaust crimes and presenting him as a national hero. Well, I understand that being an administrator here requires that I am resistive to all king of shit being thrown out on me, but this particular shit requires some evaluation by third parties. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, blocking. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Indef might be a bit too much, but thanks for taking action.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't have a high threshold for sending nationalist POV pushers out the door, especially regarding Eastern Europe. Lithuania's history is fraught enough to write about without background noise from such editors. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- As far as EE nationalistic points of view are concerned, I definitely do not disagree. They are capable of quickly and efficiently making anybody sick.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't have a high threshold for sending nationalist POV pushers out the door, especially regarding Eastern Europe. Lithuania's history is fraught enough to write about without background noise from such editors. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Indef might be a bit too much, but thanks for taking action.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Persistent editing without consensus
- JorgeLaArdilla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Dear admins, need advice dealing with JorgeLaArdilla. Recently the user made a string of similar edits to articles about Quranic chapters. I disagree with the edits and started a discussion here [195]. Since then other editors have weighed in and at least two other editors found the edits problematic (with different reasons) and no other editors seemed to support his edits (as of this writing): Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam#JorgeLaArdilla's_edits_on_Quran_suras. JorgeLaArdilla responded to the thread, but does not address the point in his replies, started engaging in theological arguments [196], bringing up irrelevant edits not under dispute [197], [198], or even acting borderline inappropriate such as removing criticism against his edits in the talk page [199] or moving them around [200], or calling me "troll" [201]. As for his edits, he continued restoring his contested edits [202] and even adding new ones with the same problems in other articles [203][204][205]. When I reverted the edit, pointing him to the discussion and asking him to not restore without consensus[206], he simply restored the content again without explanation: [207]. When I reverted his modification of other editor's writing in talk page, [208], he also persistently reverted his modification back [209], [210]. I need advice or help dealing with this behavior. Ideally, I think these edits should be discussed and not restored until getting consensus, but it's hard to achieve that when one side keeps restoring the disputed content. HaEr48 (talk) 17:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Query inappropriate userboxes
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User:Barumbarumba has a userbox on their page which in my opinion is inappropriate. I consider this to be Wikipedia:Harassment on the basis of sexual orientation. Wondering others thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:31, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:UBX/onemanonewoman 4th nomination. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. I will go ahead and delete its occurrence on this persons user page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
proxy detected
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- 168.119.101.241 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
IP 168.119.101.241 is a proxy or VPN from Germany (see) I recommend a check to verify possible accounts editing from its subnet 168.119.101.0/24 93.146.44.145 (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's Hetzner, so I've blocked it. But open proxies should be reported to Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Saotura and Turkish nationalism, denial of Armenian genocide
User:Saotura has been working here for two months on various aspects of Turkish history and politics, especially focusing on violent actions that have taken place between Turks and Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, etc. Saotura persistently downplays or removes historian's negative views against Turkey, especially regarding the Armenian Genocide, and Saotura puts in their place a baffling narrative that the Armenians are acting violently against the Turks for no reason.[211] I first ran into him when he inserted his narrative into the Racism in the United States article, telling the readers that Armenians in the US have been attacking Turks for no reason at all.[212] When Saotura is writing inside an actual Armenian genocide article, he finds ways to put the onus on those who were massacred.[213] Saotura created several categories, templates and articles, and we should be deleting the ones with this taint. His Template:Anti-Turkism was deleted, and his Anti-Turkism in Armenia is at AfD. The latter article contains no mention of the Armenian Genocide, the elephant in the room.
At one point, Saotura's userpage advocated the killing of a living person, Kurdish nationalist leader Abdullah Öcalan.[214] Prior to that, the userpage stated that Saotura was a proud Turkish nationalist, strongly opposed to ethnic separatism.[215]
To me, it appears that Saotura is WP:NOTHERE to build the encyclopedia. Instead, they are here to push a Turkish nationalist viewpoint, full of denialism and politically motivated revisionism. I don't see how this person can be trusted to contribute neutrally. Binksternet (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support. For the time being, I have removed (and rev-deleted) the offensive content from User:Saotura/about_me. Black Kite (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Against when did someone's personal views became a basis for block? Some of the things linked here have nothing wrong in them. For example, this addition used information from a well-cited source. If we used the same logic as you, the denialism in Khojaly massacre article is also a blockable offense, and as you put it, ways to put the onus on those who were massacred. If you want to truly show yourself as a neutral editor who's concern is pushing of a denialist approach, you should've not mentioned that edit. The additions on killing of Turkish diplomats are notable, and it is ok to WP:BOLD the Armenian Genocide factor there. But imo, propagating for a murder of a living person on someone's own wikipedia userpage id worrying and he needs a warning for it, not a block. The deletion of two pages created by him is also an absurd basis for a block. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:20, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Taking Saotora's non-existent past blocks, and the fact that he's been here for just over a month, a simple warning would do the trick to encourage him in sticking by the neutrality guidelines and avoiding POV-pushing. I don't think we all were experts on Wikipedia's guidelines when we just started editing here. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- when did someone's personal views became a basis for block? At the moment when they start disrupting Wikipedia to push those views. Jeppiz (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- It seems that you've avoided most of what I wrote here. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Idk, I don't want to push his case too far. But imo a block is too big of a move for such events. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- With all due respect, you appear to comment without having bothered to look into the case. You say a warning would suffice - but the user has already been warned several times and continues with highly problematic edits despite the warnings. Jeppiz (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Idk, I don't want to push his case too far. But imo a block is too big of a move for such events. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- It seems that you've avoided most of what I wrote here. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- when did someone's personal views became a basis for block? At the moment when they start disrupting Wikipedia to push those views. Jeppiz (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Taking Saotora's non-existent past blocks, and the fact that he's been here for just over a month, a simple warning would do the trick to encourage him in sticking by the neutrality guidelines and avoiding POV-pushing. I don't think we all were experts on Wikipedia's guidelines when we just started editing here. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- when did someone's personal views became a basis for block? When they're WP:POVPUSHing genocide denial. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I am still defending my edits on Genocides in history. I didn't even touch the information about WW1 Genocides at all, and the massacres which I deleted weren't classified as genocides in genocides in history article or their own main articles, and there weren't a citation that classifies them as genocides. My edits on Maraga massacre article might be wrong to some extent, however, the problem was with the place where it was mentioned. The information was well-sourced, and the fact that the massacre at Maragha was an act of revenge for Khojaly does deserve a mention in its article. Like how pogrom in Sumgait is mentioned on the Khojaly massacre article and how March Days is mentioned on the September Days article. I am guessing that your problem with the War crimes section on the Franco-Turkish War article is because the Armenian Genocide wasn't mentioned, which can be fixed easily, as long as you have a citation which states that massacres in southern Anatolia at that period were an act of revenge for the genocide. I think I did and mentioned it in the Anti-Turkism in Armenia article sometime after writing the text on the Franco-Turkish War article. I will add it right after finishing writing this text. I am not going to defend anything about Abdullah Öcalan thing. I won't attempt it again and I personally don't think that alone is a reason to block someone forever.-Śαǿturα💬 18:59, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Support Saotura is WP:NOTHERE. He has been warned repeatedly and has just created a long article portraying Armenians as having racist feelings against Turkic people (like all Turkic people) while they are mainly against Turkish (from Turkey) and Azerbaijani (from Azerbaijan) perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. The opposite is Turkish, Azerbaijani nationalist POV.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Huggle and the rollback restriction
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A few days ago, user ChipWolf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) compiled their own version of Huggle without the rollback restriction. They did this citing WP:IAR in their VPP post, after being denied rollback permissions three times (1st request, 2nd, 3rd). Administrator JJMC89 promptly blocked ChipWolf, with the rationale "Using Huggle without approval – circumvented the requirement to have rollback, which was requested and declined multiple times." After that, administrator ST47 responded on Chip's talk page saying he does not agree with the block rationale, and that If there's a problem with the user's edits, then by all means warn or block them for that. However, it sounds like their modified version of Huggle was used in a read-only mode.
JJMC89 then responded saying that They used Huggle to make 3 edits within the last 24 hours, so it wasn't strictly used as read-only. Using restricted software in contravention of community norms (requires rollback) is disruptive, especially when access (via rollback) was requested and declined multiple times.
I then responded to ST47 saying that I agreed with the block. The discussion continues on ChipWolf's talk page. Administrator Wugapodes then unblocked ChipWolf stating that I simply cannot in good conscience let this block continue indefinitely. Not only is it without a strong policy basis, it weakens the ability to use free and open source software...Simply, this block contradicts policy and needs to be reversed, so I have unblocked.
The discussion on VPP has continued, but I would like more input from other uninvolved administrators on the topic of whether or not the rollback restriction should be enforced to the point of blocking. Thank you. ―sportzpikachu my talkcontribs 02:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh come on -- how much more time are we going to waste on one harmless edit? There's a discussion at WP:VPP and a discussion on changing the policy to actually make this a violation of PAGs at WT:BOTPOL, and these two alone already have too much WP:MULTI overlap. This is not an incidents issue but a policy issue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I believe this is a dispute that warrants more administrator attention, hence I have posted it on ANI. This is a dispute over whether or not blocking over requirement bypasses is a valid reason, and I feel that it would be best for more administrators to give their opinion. ―sportzpikachu my talkcontribs 03:07, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sportzpikachu, as you have noted yourself at the end of your report, this mostly seems to be an attempt to have a general discussion about the topic (as opposed to the user's specific behavior). Such an discussion already exists at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Huggle_&_Rollback, and the village pump is indeed more suitable for general discussions. Regarding this specific user's behavior, now that they have agreed not to use Huggle without rollback anymore, the entire concern is gone. All that's left to be had is a general discussion – not at this noticeboard. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 04:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Spammer
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This account has been posting nothing but link spam for over a year. They've been warned many times on their talk page but their account appears to serve no other purpose. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 04:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. For what it's worth, you can use WP:AIV to report overt spammers like this. It's sometimes quicker than reporting to this noticeboard. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
70.114.31.252
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- 70.114.31.252 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Is there someone willing to control this seemingly out of control anonymous user who only wants to create unnecessary wikilinks to redirected subjects? It's starting to become very annoying and disruptive. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wow, that is a shocking amount of mainspace activity in such a short time from an IP editor. Ditto on the unnecessary wikilinks to redirected pages. Happened like a dozen times over the past month on this one page. SWinxy (talk) 05:32, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Behavior now includes unnecessary links from mainspace to draftspace. I'm not sure what guideline or consensus here on Wikipedia says not to link to drafts from mainspace, but since a draft is not technically an article until it's moved to mainspace, it does not make sense to link from mainspace. Jalen Folf (talk) 07:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Courtesy pinging the previous blocking admin Yamla for input. Now every edit by this IP is starting to become disruptive. Jalen Folf (talk) 07:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Should we try to do reverts by hand, or can an admin do mass-rollbacks? SWinxy (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Checkuser-blocked for one year. This is a case where mass-rollback would be appropriate, in my opinion, as WP:G5 would apply, though obviously I can't identify the specific blocked user here. --Yamla (talk) 12:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Should we try to do reverts by hand, or can an admin do mass-rollbacks? SWinxy (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Courtesy pinging the previous blocking admin Yamla for input. Now every edit by this IP is starting to become disruptive. Jalen Folf (talk) 07:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
IPs using inappropriate language and adding unsourced content at Chennai International Airport
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- Chennai International Airport (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
IPs continuously adding unsourced content to this article and using inappropriate language in edit summaries.
Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chennai_International_Airport&diff=995000463&oldid=994992254 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chennai_International_Airport&diff=994937929&oldid=994921105
Please help. Thanks! 47.13.131.227 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps WP:RFPP would be better suited for IP vandalism ―sportzpikachu my talkcontribs 06:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Done Semi-protected for two weeks, and offensive edit summaries revdel'ed. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Removal of references at Mary Aloe
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Hi folks. Basler2000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a new editor and likely an SPA, is repeatedly removing references and adding unsourced content at Mary Aloe. I'm up to three reverts now.
Diffs: [216], [217], [218] There's also an edit from an IP: [219]
Can someone please assist? Robby.is.on (talk) 09:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look and reverted (in two edits, duh!) to your last version. It seems that Basler2000 has currently stopped; i'll keep half an eye on the article in case he or the IP starts up again.
- To be honest, there're quite a number of items in those lists which should probably have some referencing to them, though; happy days, LindsayHello 11:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much! Robby.is.on (talk) 11:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've given it two weeks protection, as it was previously protected and it started right back up. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:32, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much! Robby.is.on (talk) 11:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
CaradhrasAiguo and blocking calls
I have noted that the user CaradhrasAiguo (talk · contribs) frequently calls for editors with whom they are in conflict to be blocked. [220][221][222][223][224][225][226][227][228]. This creates IMHO an unnecessarily hostile and antagonistic editing environment, in which one does not wish to participate. Wikipedia should be a nice and friendly place, where people should get along (yeah, I know this is the drama board). NB: I do not ask for CaradhrasAiguo themselves to be blocked. I simply want someone to tell them that this type of behavior is not helpful at all. FWIW 81.191.204.248 (talk) 15:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- The editor in the fifth diff was indeed blocked shortly after said disruption, and the editor in the seventh diff was blocked yesterday for the exact same long-term disruption. The sixth revert did presage a block for that editor's explicit labeling of others as "bad faith". The fourth diff is not even a threat at all. With a miss rate of at least four-nineths, call this report what it is: pettiness in response to the filer being reverted, not once, but twice. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 15:51, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Be that as it may, I don't think it's appropriate to demand blocks like that (or refer to other editor's blocks in edit summaries). I also do not think your bad-faith accusation of me is particularly helpful: I'm not going to revert any further. All I demand is a bit of civility and decent behavior. You have yet to address the other diffs I provided; I suspect these make up only the tip of the iceberg. 81.191.204.248 (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- A miss rate that high, as well as the complete lack of prior attempts to address the issue with the editor being reported (myself) invalidate the report. The demand (
refer to other editor's blocks in edit summaries
) that prior sanctions not be mentioned in edit summaries is a no-go: just one of the implications of that is WP:BMB and WP:EDRC are substantially weakened. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 16:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)- I only gleaned those diffs after searching about roughly 2 min. I won't bother digging around for more, as I do not think that is worthy of anyone's time here. I simply noted an discourse pattern I didn't like, a discourse which IMO creates an unnecessarily hostile environment. May I ask you directly: why do you so often talk about other editor's blocks on talk pages and in edit summaries? Why is it helpful? I also do not think you have "invalidated" any of my receipts: regardless of outcome (i.e. whether an editor is subsequently blocked or not), one shouldn't throw around blocking suggestions like that. Keep in mind CIVIL and NPA. 81.191.204.248 (talk) 16:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- A miss rate that high, as well as the complete lack of prior attempts to address the issue with the editor being reported (myself) invalidate the report. The demand (
- Be that as it may, I don't think it's appropriate to demand blocks like that (or refer to other editor's blocks in edit summaries). I also do not think your bad-faith accusation of me is particularly helpful: I'm not going to revert any further. All I demand is a bit of civility and decent behavior. You have yet to address the other diffs I provided; I suspect these make up only the tip of the iceberg. 81.191.204.248 (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with the IP; that kind of stuff (comments about editors' past or possible future blocks) is for noticeboards and user talk pages, not edit summaries and article talk pages. It doesn't matter how often the prediction is correct. Levivich harass/hound 22:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Deferring to Levivich's judgment in general, not that of the Oslo IP (
receipts
is something I expect for Twitter 'discourse', not this site). CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 23:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Deferring to Levivich's judgment in general, not that of the Oslo IP (
TPA abuse
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Sylvia Lynn Mines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Please revoke TPA for the user. Thanks. JavaHurricane 16:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- Done -- MelanieN (talk) 16:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- MelanieN, thanks a lot! JavaHurricane 17:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Onel5969 and dablinks
Onel5969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has had a history of problematic edits when fixing link to disambiguation pages. This resulted in an ANI thread in 2018: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive982#Onel5969, mistakes in automated edits, and problematic attitude, where there was support for a time-limited topic ban from semiatomated dablink edits. The ban didn't get formally enacted because Onel5969 voluntarily agreed to stop editing in this area. However, several months later he went back to the old pattern of editing. I brought that up on his talk page at the time, and from then onwards I've tried to keep to pinging him from my edit summaries whenever I've had to correct after an edit he'd made to a page on my watchlist.
Now, two years on, and after recent talk page posts by Ionmars10 in September and by me from two weeks ago, I don't think I see any improvement. Here's a few examples just from the last 24 hrs:
- [229] here he appears to have arbitrarily picked one of the two languages with the name, and apparently the incorrect one
- [230] of the only two entries on the dab page – for an ethnic group and a language – he's decided to pick the language to link to inside an obvious list of ethnic groups
- [231] here the links were intentional dablinks so didn't need fixing at all (some may not have been optimal, but even then Onel5969's intervention was dubious: Naqvi (disambiguation), for example, should have just been changed to Naqvi instead of completely unlinked)
- [232] [233] incorrectly linking to the surname when the term "Rao" is used as a prefix before a name, and so is obviously a title.
Now, some of these errors might be brushed off as accidental misjudgements in borderline cases, but many are of a type it's difficult to imagine could be made by anyone who's actually looked at a link before changing it, such as the language/ethnicity one above, or this "fix" from two weeks ago which altered the article text to suggest that the Iranian city of Herat was besieged by an army of Japanese ghosts.
The underlying problems, in my opinion, are that he doesn't take enough care when fixing links, and that when editors then point that out he doesn't respond constructively. The latter issue doesn't affect only dablinks: even when he doesn't go as far as dishing out insults (like removing a talk page post by an annoyed newbie with the edit summary "rev utter moron", or removing a perfectly calm and civil explanation by an experienced editor with the edit summary "Remove ignorance"), he has a tendency to ban editors from his talk page at the slightest hint of criticism, whatever the topic. He's banned me from his talk page too (after I commented about some of his draftifications), and that's one reason I've ended up here. I'm not sure what can be done about this side of the problem.
However, at least the pattern of bad dablinks can be tackled by a topic ban. In the ANI discussion from two years ago, I opposed this solution, instead opting for a voluntary mentorship with an editor experienced in the area, but now I'm convinced this will not work. So, my proposal is for a topic ban from dedicated dablink fixing. This will still allow for common-sense exception, like fixing the occasional link he may come across at NPP, or on articles that he's substantially improving. Thoughts? – Uanfala (talk) 19:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- (non-admin sidenote) The bad link to Rao (surname) in Pataudi was introduced on 22 June 2011, by a multiple laureate in the DAB Hall of Fame. That and the other links to Rao (surname) have only come to light at all because Rao (surname) was (correctly) moved to Rao (Indian surname) and the resulting redirect retargetted to the DAB page on 17 December 2020. Narky Blert (talk) 22:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- That edit of 2011 wasn't as obviously bad at the time, because Rao (title) didn't exist yet. But otherwise yeah, Onel replaced one bad link with another bad link, can't completely blame him for that. Though if he'd looked at the text immediately surrounding the link rather than just what's inside the square brackets (which he's supposed to anyway) he should have been able to catch that. – Uanfala (talk) 22:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Music genre changes
- SDA6776447644578+7545-7++ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Some genre edit warring (the user knows about the dispute because they changed the hidden comment deliberately) by SDA6776447644578+7545-7++ as the user's only edits. Reeks of a sock banned before, possibly LTA Iloveartrock though no doubt many people are much more familiar with this area than I am. — Bilorv (talk) 20:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)