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:Why not attempt to discuss the dispute on the article talk page, instead of bringing your content dispute to ANI? [[User:El_C|El_C]] 17:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
::I attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page. This is not a simple content dispute. This user persistently attempts to remove potentially negative information from Wikipedia articles. This user is trying to paint their own picture on Wikipedia. This user also recently marked a large removal as a minor edit. I will provide diffs soon. I apologize that I do not know how to link diffs. I will try to figure it out. Thanks! [[User:GrammarDamner|GrammarDamner]] ([[User talk:GrammarDamner|talk]]) 17:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Usedtobecool}} and {{u|El_C}}, this [[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_in_the_Quran&diff=936727148&oldid=936726829|This edit]] is the most recent one that I was talking about. I will provide more. The page is now fully protected, and the information that this user removed has not been restored. Thanks! [[User:GrammarDamner|GrammarDamner]] ([[User talk:GrammarDamner|talk]]) 17:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
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Revision as of 17:46, 20 January 2020
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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User:Amirhosein Izadi
I am surprised that my proposal to ban User:Amirhosein Izadi on account of hoaxing was archived without being refused or heeded. A subsequent sockpuppet investigation had a checkuser request declined, but hoaxing is still a bannable offense, right? I saw no counterarguments being made in the last discussion in regards this user being a hoaxer. He's done this multiple times and has voiced no intention to stop. So, again, i believe it may be necessary to block this user to prevent him from creating further hoaxes. Once he's stopped from creating further hoaxes i'd like to go through his articles and see what is and isn't a hoax. Please consult Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Turkmen Sahra and the previous ANI thread as to how i've deduced this user is a hoaxer. I find this case bizarre, never before have i seen an unopposed proposal be archived and ignored. Koopinator (talk) 19:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's possible that your thread was archived due to inactivity rather than because an admin declined your request; I think WP:ANI has an automated script which does that. I think one of the issues also is that the user (Amirhosein Izadi)) stopped editing a week ago so the situation would appear at first glance to be less urgent. In the mean time, I think it would be helpful to go through his contributions to identify potential hoaxes. I have tagged one article already as a hoax which you identified, and I am willing to take a look through his history later today to see if I see anything obviously fake. Michepman (talk) 01:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, my first ANI thread was created only a few hours after that user's last edit. The only reason i'm now creating this thread on a week-long inactive user is because the admins have been taking their sweet time with taking action. I think it's better for me to get to work with these hoaxes now rather than wait for the day that the admins actually enforce this consensus. Hopefully that day comes sooner than later. Koopinator (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: in my experience, just grab the nearest admin and ask for their comment. Also, the less words you make people have to read, the better. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 15:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Not an admin, but have been noticing this case as it develops. Archiving is automatic; it appears your thread was simply overlooked. Good on you for bringing it up again. I support an indefinite block on the hoaxer. If no admins respond, as MJL said, you may have to ask someone directly. -Crossroads- (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: can you please look at this thread and take action? Koopinator (talk) 07:48, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Not an admin, but have been noticing this case as it develops. Archiving is automatic; it appears your thread was simply overlooked. Good on you for bringing it up again. I support an indefinite block on the hoaxer. If no admins respond, as MJL said, you may have to ask someone directly. -Crossroads- (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: in my experience, just grab the nearest admin and ask for their comment. Also, the less words you make people have to read, the better. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 15:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, my first ANI thread was created only a few hours after that user's last edit. The only reason i'm now creating this thread on a week-long inactive user is because the admins have been taking their sweet time with taking action. I think it's better for me to get to work with these hoaxes now rather than wait for the day that the admins actually enforce this consensus. Hopefully that day comes sooner than later. Koopinator (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Previous Thread: I think Archived here. Lightburst (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC) someone erased this comment twice - not sure why - please explain.
- I removed it twice because the OP linked to it in their initial post, so your link is unneccessary. Surely you know how to look at the revision history of this page to (a) see it was I and (b) see my edit summary explaining why I removed it. But all that for absolutely nothing.--Bbb23 (talk) 03:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: Doh...Thanks, by the time I look for the diff, there are always so many new posts that I could not be bothered to weed through them all. I just kept reposting. I also did not see that the OP included it and that is my mistake. Lightburst (talk) 04:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Viewing the user's fawiki contributions shows "07:28, 10 December 2018 Sunfyre blocked Amirhosein Izadi with an expiration time of indefinite". @fa:User:Sunfyre: Would you mind outlining what the problem was at fawiki? Johnuniq (talk) 06:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah that's quite concerning. FWIW, I did see the earlier thread. Did not comment at the time in part because what I saw was suspicious but also quite difficult to assess given the obscurity of the subject matter of what they were dealing with. They failure to offer us any explanation was not re-assuring, still I also did not want to kick out an editor who may be an expert on an obscure non English subject area just because of a misunderstanding. While I can't say for sure, I wonder if other than the time of year others also felt the same, hence the limited response. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: At this point i don't think there's any remaining doubt as to this user being a hoaxer. Consider the article Ice Flower (album) by the same creator. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax. I see no reason to keep this thread open or keep this user unblocked. When i first failed to find the sources, my mind went to the Bicholim conflict investigation from 2012. In that case, the AFD immediately led to the article being deleted in a day and the editor being banned within a week. I wish this investigation would've gone that smoothly - that there's wouldn't be a need to wait a week on my unopposed AFD, that i wouldn't have to make 2 ANI threads, no separate sock investigation, no cross-wiki shenanigans, no
adminuser saying it could all be a misunderstanding and that jazz. Koopinator (talk) 14:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: At this point i don't think there's any remaining doubt as to this user being a hoaxer. Consider the article Ice Flower (album) by the same creator. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax. I see no reason to keep this thread open or keep this user unblocked. When i first failed to find the sources, my mind went to the Bicholim conflict investigation from 2012. In that case, the AFD immediately led to the article being deleted in a day and the editor being banned within a week. I wish this investigation would've gone that smoothly - that there's wouldn't be a need to wait a week on my unopposed AFD, that i wouldn't have to make 2 ANI threads, no separate sock investigation, no cross-wiki shenanigans, no
- Yeah that's quite concerning. FWIW, I did see the earlier thread. Did not comment at the time in part because what I saw was suspicious but also quite difficult to assess given the obscurity of the subject matter of what they were dealing with. They failure to offer us any explanation was not re-assuring, still I also did not want to kick out an editor who may be an expert on an obscure non English subject area just because of a misunderstanding. While I can't say for sure, I wonder if other than the time of year others also felt the same, hence the limited response. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
@Johnuniq: The block log entry at the user contribution page at fa-wiki [1] contains a Persian word with a link. That word put into Google Translate comes out as "Sabotage". It links to a policy page [2] that is apparently equivalent to our WP:Vandalism, per both putting the top of it into Google Translate and the interwiki link. That page of ours does talk about hoaxes. This is all very consistent with this editor being a hoaxer. I am going to notify Sunfyre on their talk page on fa-wiki to ensure they see this, in case that link did not generate a ping. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thanks. My ping did not work. I forgot that a normal User:Example link is needed to generate a ping, not fa:User:Example. Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- User:Amirhosein Izadi (User:Amir.85) is WP:SNEAKY: The user is suspected of creating false articles.--Sunfyre (talk) 15:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Sunfyre. Here is Sunfyre's reply to me at fa-wiki: [3] The translation (with some commonsense tweaks) reads:
@Crossroads: Hello, User: Amirhosein Izadi, User: Amir.85, He was making inaccurate information with both accounts, so he was denied access. (en: WP: SNEAKY), For more on this, read this and this. - SunfyreT
- Each "this" gave me a link. Each discussion can be pasted into Google Translate and read. They are not long, but they establish that this user's content is not trustworthy and most editors were saying his content should be deleted.
- This all supports that both Amirhosein Izadi, and the account Sunfyre has just mentioned, Amir.85, should be blocked indefinitely. The Amir.85 account does have 2 edits on en-wiki from
just the last few monthsthe latter part of 2018, [4] so it should be included. - I concur that this user's content is not trustworthy and should be deleted. All of it. Only exception should be if someone else has personally verified it, but that won't be the case generally, as most of the sources are in Persian and it is too hard to check each piece. We already know this user is a liar, and even if there is content that is partly true, it is still totally misleading. I know Koopinator has PRODded some of the hoax articles - I think the rest should also be put through PROD or AfD (possibly AfD to prevent WP:REFUNDing, and perhaps they could be bundled into one nomination as well). Finally, any PRODs that get removed for some reason should be sent to AfD.
- I think we should also commend Koopinator for insisting this not fall by the wayside and for tracking down and destroying false information. -Crossroads- (talk) 19:25, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thank you for your kind words. While i think a lot of this user's articles are unsalvageable, there are some articles from this user which i think should be partially kept. These are Battle of Rasht, House of Dadvey, Mohammad Qoli Salim Tehrani. Recapture of Isfahan, Siege of Tabriz (1908), and Atabak Park Incident. These articles were translated from good-faith articles from Persian Wikipedia, with the user in question adding fictitious material. I used Google Translate on the original articles to get an idea which claims were fabrications and which were good-faith importations, then i removed the fictitious material and copied the original sources to verify the good content. In Battle of Rasht i also added a small amount of information, since i was familiar with the subject at hand. Koopinator (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed with you here. Basically my thought was that any content original to this user should be presumed false. If some of it was on a page created by him, but was original to good faith users on fa-wiki, then that could be fine. You seem to be doing the right thing with regard to what to save and what to cut.
- Johnuniq, any further thoughts at this point on the two problem accounts? -Crossroads- (talk) 06:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: By two users, do you mean Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs) and Amir.85 (talk · contribs)? The latter has a total of two edits, plus several entries in the edit filter log, and no activity since October 2018. The former has no activity since 27 December 2019. If they were to resume editing and declined to engage with other editors asking about the veracity of their articles I would be willing to block indefinitely until a satisfactory explanation was available. However I do not see proof of a hoax at enwiki and blocking now might not be right. I'm sorry to drag this out but can we leave it another week and see if they have resumed editing. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: You see no proof of hoaxing? To repeat myself, consider the article Ice Flower (album) by this user. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax.
"Subtle hoaxes seriously undermine enwiki. If there is some possibility that a hoaxer will start editing again in the future, then a block prevents that harm." Koopinator (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)- @Koopinator: Thanks for your work on this—maintaining the integrity of articles is very important. Be assured that if the editor resumes editing but fails to provide a satisfactory explanation, they will be blocked. As a clueless admin, all I can assess is what good editors have concluded and I don't see very many such editors who have concluded that a particular article is a hoax. The biggest clue is the block at fawiki but we don't know much about that. Google finds lots of pages discussing the singer Kourosh Yaghmaie and his song "Gol-e Yakh" which apparently is "Ice Flower", for example [5]. The question remains concerning whether Ice Flower (album) exists. The Los Angeles Times article is definitely about Kourosh Yaghmaie (with a different spelling of the second name). It discusses "Back From The Brink" by Kourosh. According to this the first track is "Gol E Yakh" which, as mentioned, is apparently "Ice Flower". That makes the topic very murky and I would want to see more evidence before blocking the user before they have responded. Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: Well, maybe i chose a poor example since this was an example of a claim that is a hoax and not an article topic that is a hoax. Take Capture of Ardabil and Battle of Turkmen Sahra (of which the latter was deleted in prior AFD): In the former article you have sources with bogus page numbers, Iranica which does not contain info about Ardabil in the 1910s, and a non-existent (as far as Google search will tell me) work from 2008 called "Russia in the Constitutional Revolution". In the latter article, Battle of Turkmen Sahra, none of the sources supported the existence of the battle, and no google books searches indicated that it existed. Claims unrelated to the battle's existence were also unsourced or had sources which had nothing to do with the claim presented. And this user has had plenty of opportunity to prove he's not a hoaxer, i invited him to comment on the possibility of hoaxing back on 20 December in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Turkmen Sahra, but he continued editing unrelated articles. Koopinator (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: Thanks for your work on this—maintaining the integrity of articles is very important. Be assured that if the editor resumes editing but fails to provide a satisfactory explanation, they will be blocked. As a clueless admin, all I can assess is what good editors have concluded and I don't see very many such editors who have concluded that a particular article is a hoax. The biggest clue is the block at fawiki but we don't know much about that. Google finds lots of pages discussing the singer Kourosh Yaghmaie and his song "Gol-e Yakh" which apparently is "Ice Flower", for example [5]. The question remains concerning whether Ice Flower (album) exists. The Los Angeles Times article is definitely about Kourosh Yaghmaie (with a different spelling of the second name). It discusses "Back From The Brink" by Kourosh. According to this the first track is "Gol E Yakh" which, as mentioned, is apparently "Ice Flower". That makes the topic very murky and I would want to see more evidence before blocking the user before they have responded. Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: You see no proof of hoaxing? To repeat myself, consider the article Ice Flower (album) by this user. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax.
- @Crossroads: By two users, do you mean Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs) and Amir.85 (talk · contribs)? The latter has a total of two edits, plus several entries in the edit filter log, and no activity since October 2018. The former has no activity since 27 December 2019. If they were to resume editing and declined to engage with other editors asking about the veracity of their articles I would be willing to block indefinitely until a satisfactory explanation was available. However I do not see proof of a hoax at enwiki and blocking now might not be right. I'm sorry to drag this out but can we leave it another week and see if they have resumed editing. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thank you for your kind words. While i think a lot of this user's articles are unsalvageable, there are some articles from this user which i think should be partially kept. These are Battle of Rasht, House of Dadvey, Mohammad Qoli Salim Tehrani. Recapture of Isfahan, Siege of Tabriz (1908), and Atabak Park Incident. These articles were translated from good-faith articles from Persian Wikipedia, with the user in question adding fictitious material. I used Google Translate on the original articles to get an idea which claims were fabrications and which were good-faith importations, then i removed the fictitious material and copied the original sources to verify the good content. In Battle of Rasht i also added a small amount of information, since i was familiar with the subject at hand. Koopinator (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Johnuniq, below there was an indef issued on the basis that indef need not mean infinite, but it was partly to force the user to acknowledge the complaints and address them. [6] Couldn't there be a block of Amirhosein Izadi on that basis? It seems dangerous to leave him free to roam without addressing this. What if he pops up again months or years down the road when or where nobody is scrutinizing? As for not having edited since 27 December, that is the same day Koopinator opened the first report. It's just taken a while to get it handled. It seems pretty clear that Amirhosein Izadi is ignoring us. I say we force him to pay heed.
As for Amir.85, I did have a brain fart in saying that account edited in the last few months. [7] I was subconsciously thinking it was 2019, but it's 2020 and the edits were in the latter part of 2018. Still, seems that if one is blocked, so should the other. Fa-wiki established they are the same person and the two edits from Amir.85 are the same behavioral pattern (about music, "creating" an article from an article on fa-wiki, adding dubious material).
Bbb23, Narky Blert, Dekimasu, Michepman, any thoughts on what to do with this? -Crossroads- (talk) 16:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no good evidence for this idea, just a sneaking suspicion: that Amirhosein Izadi has had several or many accounts, and drops them like hot potatoes as soon as rumbled. The high quality of his User Page suggests a second or later rodeo. There can't be many English-Farsi cross-Wiki trolls, but there is at least one: Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Chyah.
- I too would like to commend Koopinator both for spotting the problem and for persevering with it. I've only ever nailed one WP:HOAX, and proving the fact was a real pain. (It had been around for several years, but the creator had made one tiny mistake - linking to a DAB page - which brought it within the scope of my radar.) Narky Blert (talk) 16:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Narky Blert - Honestly I cannot think of a real reason not to ban this person. I realize that he hasn't edited since the 27th, but the misconduct that we are talking about here is too pervasive, sneaky, and dangerous to just ignore solely because he has (possibly temporarily) stopped editing. He has over 1500 edits that will now have to be manually checked over for hoax material, and this will be a painstaking process since his hoaxes are constructed in such a way that you have to have a reasonable amount of patience and subject matter expertise to tell.
- I too have only discovered one WP:HOAX in my career, and it was one that had managed to go undetected for years because the hoaxer used fake sources and plausible sounding details. This guy is even more dangerous since his area is a less well understood by the majority of English speaking editors. Michepman (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Michepman: (Non-admin comment) Nor can I. Hoaxing is the worst sort of misbehaviour. Even after having spotted something odd, it takes more time and effort to root it out than to write a similar-sized article - very possibly at least double.
- Gud catch! I can't remember (or be bothered to look for) mine, but it had the same tell-tale signs. A C18 French painter, knew all sorts of people; all his paintings were collected after his death by one person, and unluckily lost in a fire in late C19. All sources demonstrating notability were print-only, not in English, and impossible to locate. Plausible circumstantial details and bluelinks and sources, which only began to smell after considerable digging.
- There's a paradox here: the more you know about WP, the easier it would be to write a near-undetectable hoax; but the less inclined you would be to do so. Narky Blert (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, I've actually come around to the view it may be best to block them at least until they are willing to engage. I'm generally also very reluctant to advocate a block to force engagement unless there is a reason we absolutely require (as opposed to desire) engagement. But IMO especially with the Farsi wikipedia question mark, combined with what happened with the battle articles, I think it's got to the point we need the questions answered before they edit again. (I did look into the Ice Flower stuff myself after reading Johnuniq's comment and ended up deciding there was too little info, even having looked at Geocities and other such places to be able to conclude whether such an album existed.) And maybe they've abandoned the account, but maybe not. Given the type of concern, I don't think we should just ignore it as stale since I don't think there's any guarantee anyone will still be watching in a few months. Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to indefinitely block the accounts Amirhosein Izadi and Amir.85 per WP:SNEAKY
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Amir.85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Support as proposer. The evidence above is clear that this user adds WP:SNEAKY vandalism by means of hoaxes that could easily go undetected. Sunfyre, an administrator at Persian Wikipedia (fa-wiki), testified that both of these accounts are operated by the same person (which is certainly consistent with these accounts' behavior here) and that the operator adds WP:SNEAKY vandalism, for which they were indefinitely blocked there. The lack of activity by Amirhosein Izadi since then is just them ignoring us and leaves the unacceptable risk that the person (using either account) will come back and add falsehoods in the future, when they won't be under this kind of scrutiny. I believe there is consensus above already for this block, but since this topic apparently has an uncanny ability to fall through the cracks, I am creating an official proposal and pinging the previous participants: Koopinator, Michepman, MJL, Lightburst, Bbb23, Johnuniq, Nil Einne, Sunfyre, Narky Blert. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:11, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support (non-admin). As positives from this exercise, there are now several editors who know the signs, and collaboration between English and Farsi WPs has worked well. Narky Blert (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support I have been supporting a block since day 1 of thread 1. Hoaxing is the worst type of misbehaviour. Koopinator (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support I have some reservations because blocks are supposed to be preventive rather than punishment, and the problem user stopped editing last year. However I think such a prolific and sneaky vandal should be banned to prevent them from resurfacing (either as their current accounts or as a "new" user). Michepman (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Seems pretty straightforward. Hopefully, an admin will close this soon. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Possibly relevant
From te:వాడుకరి_చర్చ:JzG:
report vandalist ..... sockpuppets user Modern_Sciences
Please let Wikipedia managers know. This person is accustomed to importing raw and false information into articles. And on several wikis, it has had a history of restricted and unrestricted access and has repeatedly violated access now. Unfortunately, because of Pan-Armenian tendencies, there is a lot of misinformation in the articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Modern_Sciences
long term abuse multi account :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Modern_Sciences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blackorwhite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Europe2009
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Luckie_Luke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/World_Cup_2010
he is an Iranian Armenians and have many edits in persian, english, armenian and arabic .
He has been blocked numerous times for violating the law on Persian Wikipedia. It has also been blocked on endless in English and Arabic Wikipedia, but has broken the rules by creating multiple accounts. He receives extensive support from his friends at local wikis for circumventing access. This user will surely have many other accounts in Armenian and English and persian languages that require more careful inspection.All accounts require a global lock to prevent excessive sabotage. I guess he has at least ten other accounts. I think an LWCU would be required as well.
Thanks.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs) 17:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks JzG. How long ago was this? The link above does not work. Koopinator, since you are much more familiar with Amirhosein Izadi's fake articles, would you say "Pan-Armenian tendencies" at all fits what he is trying to do? -Crossroads- (talk) 08:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Amirhosein Izadi never edited anything regarding Armenia. Mainly Iranian history & Iranian rock-related hoaxes. Koopinator (talk) 12:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Crossroads, oops, soz. https://te.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B0%B5%E0%B0%BE%E0%B0%A1%E0%B1%81%E0%B0%95%E0%B0%B0%E0%B0%BF_%E0%B0%9A%E0%B0%B0%E0%B1%8D%E0%B0%9A:JzG - my user page on teWP. I know Telugu not Farsi, but the timing was a coincidence.
- Timestamp is 2020-01-14T14:07:34 and reporting account is "te:user:Khaskabul". Guy (help!) 08:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- That is te:User talk:JzG and the post was made by a now-locked user. That makes it highly suspect although even a globally locked user might occasionally be correct. Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I now got this message on my talk page at Wikiquote (of all places). Most likely, the globally locked user/socker who evidently contacted me is in the wrong. However, one thing that is kind of odd is the fact that Modern Sciences (one account they are accusing) is blocked indefinitely here on en-wiki, but has a whopping 344,000 edits at fa-wiki. [8] They are also blocked indefinitely at lrc-wiki (whatever that is; looks to have Farsi/Arabic-like script), and after only 2 edits. Here on their talk page at en-wiki, Number 57 accused them of a pro-Armenian POV. Those accounts listed above with Modern Sciences (Blackorwhite etc.) look like they could all be the same person. There is a possibility of some shenanigans or nationalist POV pushing on the other side here as well. CC: JzG, Johnuniq, Koopinator - in case this is of use. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user posted what appears to be the same at de:User talk:JzG. I haven't looked yet. Johnuniq (talk) 04:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I now got this message on my talk page at Wikiquote (of all places). Most likely, the globally locked user/socker who evidently contacted me is in the wrong. However, one thing that is kind of odd is the fact that Modern Sciences (one account they are accusing) is blocked indefinitely here on en-wiki, but has a whopping 344,000 edits at fa-wiki. [8] They are also blocked indefinitely at lrc-wiki (whatever that is; looks to have Farsi/Arabic-like script), and after only 2 edits. Here on their talk page at en-wiki, Number 57 accused them of a pro-Armenian POV. Those accounts listed above with Modern Sciences (Blackorwhite etc.) look like they could all be the same person. There is a possibility of some shenanigans or nationalist POV pushing on the other side here as well. CC: JzG, Johnuniq, Koopinator - in case this is of use. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- That is te:User talk:JzG and the post was made by a now-locked user. That makes it highly suspect although even a globally locked user might occasionally be correct. Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi. I think these aren't relevant, because I know how and why they have happened. User:Miiquoit is a sock of User:Rowingasia. I reported this at fawiki, and CheckUser evidence confirmed that Miiquoit and User:Laxesuomex were tied to each other, but Rowingasia has no action in past 3 months and therefore, we couldn't technically tie it to other accounts. However, these two account are now blocked indefinitely per WP:DUCK. I also requested for a global lock and login.wikimedia ("global") CheckUser at Meta, that resulted in globally locking ~50 socks, including User:Rowingasia2. The user who wrote this at JzG's talk page, User:Khaskabul, has been locked globally as well for the same reason. This probably dates back to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rowingasia, but it has been discussed if these are related to User:پارسا آملی or not. Ahmadtalk 06:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I reverted the edit on de. It needs rev del, at least.04:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Allegations of English-Farsi cross-Wiki trolling
There are now three in this thread:
- Amirhosein Izadi and Amir.85, the main topic
- Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Chyah and its Farsi equivalent fa:رده:سوءاستفادهکنندگان از حسابهای کاربری زاپاس/Sonia Sevilla.
- User:Modern Sciences and alleged family
(2) can be taken as proved on both WPs by similar-fact and WP:CheckUser evidence.
I have suggested that (1) and (2) may be connected. This could only be confirmed or denied by new evidence sufficient to justify a CU investigation.
(3) The other two seem to be active solely in English and Farsi WPs. This one is said to have been active in Arabic and Armenian WPs also. User:Modern Sciences (who was WP:INDEFfed in February 2018) claimed to have been a native Georgian speaker and to have only limited proficiency in Farsi. At first sight, all that evidence suggests no connection with the other two. Narky Blert (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Inappropriate claims
I try to edit article "Statuta Valachorum" to be as accurate as possible and editor Sadko (talk · contribs) makes unacceptable claims. I quote: "because this is some new sort of revisionism" "This is another popular narrative in Croatia, mostly in right-wing and modern Ustaše circles" {I am just reading what is in front of me. I do not need help of any sort, I do my own work. The current text is a Frankenstein-like creation and I plan to alert various Wiki projects of any problems, bad use of sources and lack of consensus, because this is some new sort of revisionism - and we already have enough of it in the Balkans. The idea is pretty much simple (and this is not addressed to you Ktrimi); one should add Vlach where there is a mention of Serbs in modern-day Croatia. It will furthter prove that Serbs of Croatia are only some poor Vlachs, and that they were brainwashed to become Serbs by the Serbian Orthodox Church, which can be later used for daily politics. Vlah holds the same meaning for Serbs as Šiptar does for Albanians... I hope that you will have this in mind. This is another popular narrative in Croatia, mostly in right-wing and modern Ustaše circles. I claim that this is only a more sophisticated form of bias driven POV, which can be seen from the whole body of work. And no, I am not attacking anyone, just analysing what I can see here and telling you what you are taking a part of, because I guess that your knowledge of Serbo-Croatian circles and various data is limited. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ktrimi991#Statuta_Valachorum"}. It would mean that my involvement in editing Wikipedia is revisionism and close to Nazism and Ustasha regime. I want that this clames be harshly punished and not to be repeated again. I am here in good faith and please respect me as a person. If this needs to be reported elsewhere please direct me to the right place, thank you. Mikola22 (talk) 09:00, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- The road to hell is paved with good intentions, which I think is the case here. Everything which I said is correct, I stand by all of it and every Balkan editor is aware of those facts. I did not say that it has anything to do with Nazism, please do not play the victim when you do not have to. You made a logical mistake right there. I said that it is used in those circles, and it is, which is rather alarming. I have a duty to my ancestors who were fighting various dictatorial regimes to point to any possibility of such ideological moments dominating editing of a noble project such as Wikipedia. Revisionism and creative entepretation of history should have no place on Wikipedia. These are great articles covering some of these issues, you can use Google translate and I can help you with translation of some parts, if the Google's tool fails.(Бранимир Марковић: Хрвати сви и свуда, EPOHALNO OTKRIĆE Bošnjački akademik: "Vučić i Srbi iz BiH poreklom su Vlasi") Thank you very much for reporting this as in incident; this is the way Mikola thinks he can edit controversial articles, just take a look at this creative editing, so to say - I am deleting this part "(mainly Serbs)" because this requires consensus, the other sources(books etc) do not mention mainly Serbs as Orthodox refugees in that part of Croatia ie Varaždin Generalat and evidence for this is provided in the sources I cite below throughout the page. The direct source mentions Serbs. 2) Here I add Vlachs because there are no historical documents that mention Serbs in Vienna otherwise this Serbian source(book) Serbs were also mentioned in the source... More of it here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ktrimi991#Statuta_Valachorum Thank you for your patience regarding these messy Balkan issues. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 13:13, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Just to prove that I was not overreacting and that I am not paranoid, here are some of the diffs in which the same user, Mikola22, cites wartime fascist officials as if they were RS - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Croatian_Orthodox_Church&diff=925377120&oldid=925375409&diffmode=source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bjelopavlići&diff=925371428&oldid=924037952&diffmode=source and more on Sremska Mitrovica and other articles. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 14:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the editor's previous blocks I'm wondering if this should be seen as an WP:AE issue - if blocks don't work, a topic ban may be the solution. I don't know much about this issues but I'll ping the Admins involved before with the blockes. @TomStar81, Yamla, and Bbb23: any opinions? Doug Weller talk 15:53, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Doug, I don't know which editor you're referring to. All I know is that both editors have been disruptive lately, and that needs to stop. I don't know enough about the topic area to comment about AE, one of my least favorite forums on Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: fair enough, you blocked both this week. Doug Weller talk 17:20, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, in the beginning I used data of that historian and I did not know that this historian is forbidden in Wikipedia(otherwise, to this day I have never heard that he is forbidden here), that historian lived and died in Yugoslavia without any sanctions, how could I assume that he has something to do with fascism? I didn't know until then that it had something to do with fascism (this book has doctoral dissertation defense and I thought it was RS). The book is from 1937 and Croatian edition 1991, and today is in all libraries in Croatia especially in Catholic institutions and is used as a source in books or scientific works by Croatian historians or in school system. Otherwise I only put information from the Vatican archives(original archival material) that he has in the book. Therefore from the first day I started editing Wikipedia he saw fascists and Nazis in me. Here I give my energy and knowledge to improve the articles as much as possible while he uses hate speech instead of working in good faith. Therefore, I demand a harsh punishment and that such things no longer happening. I'm not a fascist and a nacist. I am from Croatia and I respect everyone, but this hate speech must be sanctioned. I spend my days here making articles better he offends me in the worst possible way. Mikola22 (talk) 16:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- I refute the notion that I was (deliberately) disruptive, it is just that admins are sometimes rather busy and have too much on their plate and so they just count reverts (going by the book) and do not have the time to look at the content and the nature of reverts more deeply, which is often the case with issues which are not in their original sphere of interest (Balkan history and what not). I was a collateral damage of one Wiki rules while trying to defend an article from addition of dubious sources, bold edits without consensus and manipulation with sources, as seen above. I rest my case and I am even surprised that this was brought over here, because, in my mind, it's nothing more than looking for reasons to report people, and finding offenses which do not exist in the original text. Historian is forbidden? P.S: The editor who mostly works on articles about history of the region apparently had no knowledge about works by a prominent local fascist official. I simply don't belive it. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 18:14, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, in the beginning I used data of that historian and I did not know that this historian is forbidden in Wikipedia(otherwise, to this day I have never heard that he is forbidden here), that historian lived and died in Yugoslavia without any sanctions, how could I assume that he has something to do with fascism? I didn't know until then that it had something to do with fascism (this book has doctoral dissertation defense and I thought it was RS). The book is from 1937 and Croatian edition 1991, and today is in all libraries in Croatia especially in Catholic institutions and is used as a source in books or scientific works by Croatian historians or in school system. Otherwise I only put information from the Vatican archives(original archival material) that he has in the book. Therefore from the first day I started editing Wikipedia he saw fascists and Nazis in me. Here I give my energy and knowledge to improve the articles as much as possible while he uses hate speech instead of working in good faith. Therefore, I demand a harsh punishment and that such things no longer happening. I'm not a fascist and a nacist. I am from Croatia and I respect everyone, but this hate speech must be sanctioned. I spend my days here making articles better he offends me in the worst possible way. Mikola22 (talk) 16:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the editor's previous blocks I'm wondering if this should be seen as an WP:AE issue - if blocks don't work, a topic ban may be the solution. I don't know much about this issues but I'll ping the Admins involved before with the blockes. @TomStar81, Yamla, and Bbb23: any opinions? Doug Weller talk 15:53, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Just to prove that I was not overreacting and that I am not paranoid, here are some of the diffs in which the same user, Mikola22, cites wartime fascist officials as if they were RS - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Croatian_Orthodox_Church&diff=925377120&oldid=925375409&diffmode=source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bjelopavlići&diff=925371428&oldid=924037952&diffmode=source and more on Sremska Mitrovica and other articles. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 14:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have promised to the two editors that I will help them find a solution to the said content dispute. It is not a difficult one, just patience and careful use of reliable sources are needed. One thing I would say is that @Sadko: should stop making personal attacks, aspersions and assumptions about other editors. It is sometimes impossible to have a proper discussion with him on controversial stuff. @Doug Weller: is right that such issues are AE ones. Sadko, if an experienced editor, not Mikola22, reported you at AE, no doubt a topic ban would be the result. You have produced massive amounts of evidence against yourself. One just needs to take a quick look at your comments on talk pages and edit summaries, where you continuously accuse other people of having certain goals on Wikipedia and so on. You need to reflect. Sadko and Mikola22 are keen on writing new content, so good faith and cooperation can solve the content issues. I plan to propose some edits on the article soon to help the two editors. Till then they best do not edit the article. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Ktrimi991:I came to your talk page with suggestion to tell me what to do next, I have exposed all the changes and sources which I have(and there are more sources) to make article accurate as possible. Editor Sadko comes to your talk page not to make a joint decision in peace to improve accuracy of that article(Statuta Valachorum) but to talk about my edits as Nazi and fascist. This is not right. It is evident that his actions are not in good faith. I have been searching for data and RS sources for this article throughout whole week but it doesn't matter to him, he mentions Ustashes. Mikola22 (talk) 19:28, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Iam not making personal attacks and there is no "massive amount" of anything, that is simply not completely true. I am having in mind that we different views on a number of things.
- This is a fine example that I am doing no such thing; I attacked the text, the content, the way in which sources are used and not anybody personally. That can be seen on your TP, for starters. I am sorry if you do not like what I was able to read into. I can agree with the last sentence. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment that
I have a duty to my ancestors who were fighting various dictatorial regimes to point to any possibility of such ideological moments dominating editing
is rather confusing. I think that editing Wikipedia is not a "duty" to our ancestors, and should not seen as such. Anyways guys, the new year is in its first days so we better focus on other things right now. I will soon ping you two on my talk page with a proposal on the article. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment that
- Idk if @Doug Weller: or @Bbb23: or someone else wants to close this discussion before it becomes too long. This might be better suited for AE rather than ANI/I. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:46, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Editing by Mikola22 is very tendentious. He uses different methods, at first he tried to make his own interpretations of primary sources, then he used outdated sources of 19th century and fascist historians. Now this is cherrypicking and strong violation of the "weight" rule. But his bias remains the same.--Nicoljaus (talk) 13:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes at first I didn't know the rules of Wikipedia and I thought that Wikipedia was based on original information ie sources, if I used outdated sources I dont know what should that mean, I thought every source was RS and now I use the latest data. This fascistic historian are in every Catholic library in Croatia, and this historian is also mentioned in some schools master's thesis and other Croatian historians use his data. I used his information from Vatican archives and I no longer use it even though it is a valuable source of information in Croatia. Therefore I once again ask that this attack on me is properly punished because I'm neither a Nazi nor a fascist. We must understand that Croatia has a history which is based on historical sources while someone does not like that. I have already found more forgerys that existed in articles about Serbs from Croatia and editor Sadko did not want to accept that editing in peace and obviously this is a problem for someone here. However, we all work together to make articles accurate as possible. If someone does not like some historical facts this is not a reason for insults me with hate speech that I am a follower of fascists and Nazi Croatians. Mikola22 (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
- Here's more recent information on the fascist historian I quote: "Croatian Cultural Society Napredak Zadar and the Archdiocese of Zadar organize the presentation of Proceedings from the International Scientific Symposium Krunoslav Stjepan Draganović - Priest, Historian and Patriot" Welcome word: Msgr. Želimir Puljić, Archbishop of Zadar and President of Episcopal Conference of Croatia(2015). Does not mean that Croatian Catholic bishops are fascists because they promote Krunoslav Stjepan Draganović. At first I thought it was RS and my intention was to present some information about Catholics from the Vatican archives.Mikola22 (talk) 15:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
- That's the problem: Mikola is eager to find the arguments for whitewashing, but he, for some reason, failed to see numerous sources about Ustashe background of Krunoslav Draganović. And the similar story is repeated with his edits again and again.--Nicoljaus (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in fascists and Ustashas and I do not know who is Krunoslav Draganovic. I only know that he is a patriot in the Croatian Catholic church. And I used information from his book from the Vatican Archives, the book is from 1937 and 1991. And now I know this facts. Therefore calling me a follower of Nazis and fascists for editing some article in good faith should be harshly punished. Mikola22 (talk) 06:35, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- No one says that you are Ustash. But you make a tendentious selection of information. For you, Krunoslav is a patriot and a Catholic, and you do not notice everything else. And you do the same thing with every "Croatian" issue.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Krunoslav Draganovic is patriot for Croatian Catholic Church not for me. I put information from his book(Vatican archives) at the beginning of Wikipedia editing because I only knew this fact about him. Today some others historian use his book as a source of information. For you he is a fascist and for the Croatian Catholic Church he is a patriot. I do not research his works or his history because I am not interested in it, I am interested in information from books to make Wikipedia accurate as possible. You are probably obsessed with Krunoslav Draganovic but I didn't know who he was. You have to know that Croatia also has a history and we must respect it no matter how much you dislike it. I respect Serbian history but we also need to enter information from the Croatian view. I know this is a problem for you and Sadko but we need to make Wikipedia more accurate and better. If I do it in good faith that is no reason to compare me to fascists and Nazis. Mikola22 (talk) 10:55, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- No one says that you are Ustash. But you make a tendentious selection of information. For you, Krunoslav is a patriot and a Catholic, and you do not notice everything else. And you do the same thing with every "Croatian" issue.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in fascists and Ustashas and I do not know who is Krunoslav Draganovic. I only know that he is a patriot in the Croatian Catholic church. And I used information from his book from the Vatican Archives, the book is from 1937 and 1991. And now I know this facts. Therefore calling me a follower of Nazis and fascists for editing some article in good faith should be harshly punished. Mikola22 (talk) 06:35, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- After administrator rejected his proposal in White Croats article this is how editor Nicoljaus expresses his good faith (White Croats talk page) I quote: "A simple “fuck off” would help to express the same thought much shorter. And with about the same level of validity.--Nicoljaus (talk) 12:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)" Therefore this statement is clearly not in good faith but no one accuses you of insulting administrator decision. You were just angry and that is why such a reaction but it's not my fault for such decision of administrator.Mikola22 (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, here is diffirent story. I was naive and thought that there was just a technical question and a misunderstanding. However, it turned out that in certain circles they still talk about the giant White Croatia from Elbe to Dnieper with its seat in Krakow. And to protect this ancient myth, a real mobilization was carried out. I have learned a lot of new things there!--Nicoljaus (talk) 01:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- That's the problem: Mikola is eager to find the arguments for whitewashing, but he, for some reason, failed to see numerous sources about Ustashe background of Krunoslav Draganović. And the similar story is repeated with his edits again and again.--Nicoljaus (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Here's more recent information on the fascist historian I quote: "Croatian Cultural Society Napredak Zadar and the Archdiocese of Zadar organize the presentation of Proceedings from the International Scientific Symposium Krunoslav Stjepan Draganović - Priest, Historian and Patriot" Welcome word: Msgr. Želimir Puljić, Archbishop of Zadar and President of Episcopal Conference of Croatia(2015). Does not mean that Croatian Catholic bishops are fascists because they promote Krunoslav Stjepan Draganović. At first I thought it was RS and my intention was to present some information about Catholics from the Vatican archives.Mikola22 (talk) 15:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm in the middle of a LONG week, but after looking through this briefly I say AE-block his ass and wait for that to fail so we can indef the account. And best protect the article pages too since this comes under not one but two different AE sub headings: Eastern Europe and German War Effort. Food for thought.
- @TomStar81: I have no idea how to solve this dispute, but I think you forgot to sign.--Calthinus (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think a TBAN for both users. I am not sure both are being exactly honest and are both POV pushers.Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: What concrete did you do for accuracy of Statuta Valachorum article? I quote: "no, you have to get consensus for these changes. You do not get to make a case and then act as if you have won the debate." You supported Sadko although you do not know history of that region of Croatia at all. You didn't help with anything and now you would ban and me? POV pusher? You did not see that this was largely a copied article from Serbian Wikipedia? Is it then a neutral article? But these are laws for the Vlachs, Croats are also Vlachs and where they are in the article? Do you know history of Croatia? Do you know that Croats in Dalmatia are Vlach in documents, we're not Serbs because of that or maybe we are? You support that article and Sadko, and my edit where I placed Vlachs with the Serbs consider POV pushing? What if I put information about the Croats who were under the Vlach name at the time? Whether and this is POV pushing? From where Serbs in an article that talks about the Vlachs? Then the Croats etc are actually of Serbian origin? Promotion of this claim is called how? Then we will also change the article about Vlachs from Wikipedia, there are not mentioned any Serbs there.(The Orthodox Vlachs spread further northward along the Carpathians to Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia and were granted autonomy under Ius Vlachonicum (Walachian law), there is no mention of Serbs in that law. If someone does not know the Croatian, Bosnian, Albanian etc history this is not a reason for all those who know that history a little better consider POV pushers. And that is why we need to work together in good faith to keep the articles accurate as possible. And normally without insulting anyone that is personal Nazi or fascist, that deserves the harshest punishment. Mikola22 (talk) 18:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- I am talking not just about one article. I recall your attempt to use the dodgy source discussed at length above, and how you at first claims you were using historical documents rather, and ironically as I pointed out a third party source interpreting them. In fact if I recall it was only after some effort you seemed to accept this [[9]]. It maybe just bad use of English, but you seem to often say things that seem to not gel with what you mean. You (for example) seem to claim you have personal access to the Vatican archives, do you? Its clear you mean "his book about the Vatican Archives, but you said "I used information from his book from the Vatican Archives". In a less contentious area this might not be an issue, bit in a highly controversial topic not being able to make yourself clearly understood causes confusion and conflict. Also you say you will now not use Krunoslav Draganovic, but you also )in effect) try to defend his use by "Croatian Catholic Church", and strongly imply that many Croatian sources use him (do the ones you want to use?). It all adds to a sense you are more interested in pushing a Croatian nationalist POV. You are (in effect) pretty much a wp:sap. By the way I have called for you both to be TBAN'd this is not some one sided attempt to silence some "truth about the Vlachs", its an attempt to stop the pair of you ruining it for everyone else.Slatersteven (talk) 18:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- If I didn't know the rules of Wikipedia at first what does that have to do with this edit or in the last month, or with the fact that Sadko insults me for being a Nazi? You (for example) seem to claim you have personal access to the Vatican archives, do you? I used this information from the book (1991), about these Catholics Bjelopavlići a few days ago I found it in the book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". I can't find the whole book anywhere, when I find it I'll edit Bjelopavlići artice. Where the conflict is, the Bjelopavlići are referred as Catholics is that a problem for you and Sadko? Bjelopavlići are allegedly Serbs, whether that may be a problem? Do you edit article in good faith or what is it about? It is forbidden to mentione Catholics? I'm not defending anyone, I live in Croatia and I have not researched the work of Krunoslav Draganovic. I know that he is a patriot of the Croatian Catholic Church, I only knew that about him. And I thought it was RS. I don't know how you can't figure it out. "Croatian nationalist POV" maybe it's from your viewing angle because you don't know Croatian history. If you knew the history of Croatia then you would not defend Sadko, you probably would defended accuracy of information in Wikipedia articles and the principle of good faith. Why you don't change the "Statuta Valachorum" article for the better. Whether it is the law of the Serbs or Vlachs? Have you read the article? If you don't know Croatian history then ask me. Therefore, you have no good faith in this case. This is not right.Mikola22 (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hold I am even more confused, you launched a RSN thread about using historical documents, now you seem to be saying you do not even have access to the source you were quoting, but rather a source even further removed form the archives (one you also say you do not have access to at the moment). As to Draganovic, again this may be a language issue but you made much about how Croatian historians use him, Now it may be that you are trying to say "he is used widely in Croatia and I was mislead about his nature". The problem is it can be read a number of ways, as we cannot guess at your real intention.
- If I didn't know the rules of Wikipedia at first what does that have to do with this edit or in the last month, or with the fact that Sadko insults me for being a Nazi? You (for example) seem to claim you have personal access to the Vatican archives, do you? I used this information from the book (1991), about these Catholics Bjelopavlići a few days ago I found it in the book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". I can't find the whole book anywhere, when I find it I'll edit Bjelopavlići artice. Where the conflict is, the Bjelopavlići are referred as Catholics is that a problem for you and Sadko? Bjelopavlići are allegedly Serbs, whether that may be a problem? Do you edit article in good faith or what is it about? It is forbidden to mentione Catholics? I'm not defending anyone, I live in Croatia and I have not researched the work of Krunoslav Draganovic. I know that he is a patriot of the Croatian Catholic Church, I only knew that about him. And I thought it was RS. I don't know how you can't figure it out. "Croatian nationalist POV" maybe it's from your viewing angle because you don't know Croatian history. If you knew the history of Croatia then you would not defend Sadko, you probably would defended accuracy of information in Wikipedia articles and the principle of good faith. Why you don't change the "Statuta Valachorum" article for the better. Whether it is the law of the Serbs or Vlachs? Have you read the article? If you don't know Croatian history then ask me. Therefore, you have no good faith in this case. This is not right.Mikola22 (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- I am talking not just about one article. I recall your attempt to use the dodgy source discussed at length above, and how you at first claims you were using historical documents rather, and ironically as I pointed out a third party source interpreting them. In fact if I recall it was only after some effort you seemed to accept this [[9]]. It maybe just bad use of English, but you seem to often say things that seem to not gel with what you mean. You (for example) seem to claim you have personal access to the Vatican archives, do you? Its clear you mean "his book about the Vatican Archives, but you said "I used information from his book from the Vatican Archives". In a less contentious area this might not be an issue, bit in a highly controversial topic not being able to make yourself clearly understood causes confusion and conflict. Also you say you will now not use Krunoslav Draganovic, but you also )in effect) try to defend his use by "Croatian Catholic Church", and strongly imply that many Croatian sources use him (do the ones you want to use?). It all adds to a sense you are more interested in pushing a Croatian nationalist POV. You are (in effect) pretty much a wp:sap. By the way I have called for you both to be TBAN'd this is not some one sided attempt to silence some "truth about the Vlachs", its an attempt to stop the pair of you ruining it for everyone else.Slatersteven (talk) 18:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: What concrete did you do for accuracy of Statuta Valachorum article? I quote: "no, you have to get consensus for these changes. You do not get to make a case and then act as if you have won the debate." You supported Sadko although you do not know history of that region of Croatia at all. You didn't help with anything and now you would ban and me? POV pusher? You did not see that this was largely a copied article from Serbian Wikipedia? Is it then a neutral article? But these are laws for the Vlachs, Croats are also Vlachs and where they are in the article? Do you know history of Croatia? Do you know that Croats in Dalmatia are Vlach in documents, we're not Serbs because of that or maybe we are? You support that article and Sadko, and my edit where I placed Vlachs with the Serbs consider POV pushing? What if I put information about the Croats who were under the Vlach name at the time? Whether and this is POV pushing? From where Serbs in an article that talks about the Vlachs? Then the Croats etc are actually of Serbian origin? Promotion of this claim is called how? Then we will also change the article about Vlachs from Wikipedia, there are not mentioned any Serbs there.(The Orthodox Vlachs spread further northward along the Carpathians to Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia and were granted autonomy under Ius Vlachonicum (Walachian law), there is no mention of Serbs in that law. If someone does not know the Croatian, Bosnian, Albanian etc history this is not a reason for all those who know that history a little better consider POV pushers. And that is why we need to work together in good faith to keep the articles accurate as possible. And normally without insulting anyone that is personal Nazi or fascist, that deserves the harshest punishment. Mikola22 (talk) 18:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think a TBAN for both users. I am not sure both are being exactly honest and are both POV pushers.Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
- Your attitude (also displayed in a number of edit summaries reading (quite literally) "I have spoken") seems to be "I am an expert, I have final say". This is not how we do things (and I note your DR was closed for lack of real discussion at the talk page). Also I am not defending Sadko I have said (for gods sake read what people write, I have already pointed this out once) he should be TBAN'D too for the same reason as you.Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- You do not even have access to the source you were quoting, What are you talking about? At the beginning of editing(two months ago) I used Krunoslav Draganovic's book as a source of information for Catholic Bjelopavlići, since this source is not acceptable I found another source ie book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". when i find that book and page then I will post that info in the article about Bjelopavlići. What's the problem here? as we cannot guess at your real intention. And these are Nazi and Fascist intentions? You've been torturing me with this Draganović for two months now, what you want from me? To admit that I'm a Nazi? Do you understand that i'm not researching Draganović, he is a patriot of the Croatian Catholic Church and I used his information from the book (Vatican archives) the same archives uses and Malcolm Noel and I thought it was RS. This is not how we do things (and I note your DR was closed for lack of real discussion at the talk page)Where is the consensus and discussion on talk page about entering "Serbians" throughout whole "Statuta Valachorum" article. Show link. He should be TBAN'D too for the same reason as you. I'm trying that this article be accurate as possible, Sadko wants nothing to change in the article and calls me a Nazi and your suggestion is TBAN'D and me? I have been searching all week that the article be accurate as possible but you and Sadko didn't want to accept that. For that reason Sadko called me a follower of the Nazis and now you would TBAN'D and me. I have no more words. Mikola22 (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- "I found it in the book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". I can't find the whole book anywhere, when I find it I'll edit Bjelopavlići artice." which book could you not find the whole of?Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- In the Serbian review of book ""Kosovo: A Short History" are mentioned Bjelopavlići who are and Catholics. It's a book review and I still do not have book as a source. Mikola22 (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- John V. A. (Jr.) Fine in his book(When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkan, page 410) cites and work of Krunoslav Draganović from year 1938(talking about Catholics, Croats, Illyrians, etc) which is published by "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts". If someone quotes John V. A. (Jr.) Fine and that part of the book probably you're not going to talk about that edit for two months and insult some editor that he's a Nazi because he put that information on Wikipedia. And if you and Sadko want some information not to be entered then that's another problem. So administrators and moderators should pay more attention to this. Otherwise when I put data about Bjelopavlići and their possible Albanian origin according to several RS. Sadko did not want to put this information from several RS as part of the article. It seems that the present situation is being defended from a few editor here ie Serbian point of view which is not in good faith and neutral point of view. Interestingly Bjelopavlići are a tribe from the territory of Montenegro with possible various origins and in the article it was wanted assume their Serbian origin without some concrete RS. Mikola22 (talk) 07:57, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Good faith does not mean we have to accept "I am using an RS" when in fact you are using an unspecified review of the source. Can you not see how this is disingenuous? Nor it is the fact time you have made claims that have turned out to not be quite truthful. This is why I see a problem, this is why I do not think it is a language barrier thing. Not was it only me and Sadko who pointed out Search Results
- John V. A. (Jr.) Fine in his book(When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkan, page 410) cites and work of Krunoslav Draganović from year 1938(talking about Catholics, Croats, Illyrians, etc) which is published by "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts". If someone quotes John V. A. (Jr.) Fine and that part of the book probably you're not going to talk about that edit for two months and insult some editor that he's a Nazi because he put that information on Wikipedia. And if you and Sadko want some information not to be entered then that's another problem. So administrators and moderators should pay more attention to this. Otherwise when I put data about Bjelopavlići and their possible Albanian origin according to several RS. Sadko did not want to put this information from several RS as part of the article. It seems that the present situation is being defended from a few editor here ie Serbian point of view which is not in good faith and neutral point of view. Interestingly Bjelopavlići are a tribe from the territory of Montenegro with possible various origins and in the article it was wanted assume their Serbian origin without some concrete RS. Mikola22 (talk) 07:57, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- In the Serbian review of book ""Kosovo: A Short History" are mentioned Bjelopavlići who are and Catholics. It's a book review and I still do not have book as a source. Mikola22 (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- "I found it in the book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". I can't find the whole book anywhere, when I find it I'll edit Bjelopavlići artice." which book could you not find the whole of?Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- You do not even have access to the source you were quoting, What are you talking about? At the beginning of editing(two months ago) I used Krunoslav Draganovic's book as a source of information for Catholic Bjelopavlići, since this source is not acceptable I found another source ie book of Malcolm Noel "Kosovo: A Short History". when i find that book and page then I will post that info in the article about Bjelopavlići. What's the problem here? as we cannot guess at your real intention. And these are Nazi and Fascist intentions? You've been torturing me with this Draganović for two months now, what you want from me? To admit that I'm a Nazi? Do you understand that i'm not researching Draganović, he is a patriot of the Croatian Catholic Church and I used his information from the book (Vatican archives) the same archives uses and Malcolm Noel and I thought it was RS. This is not how we do things (and I note your DR was closed for lack of real discussion at the talk page)Where is the consensus and discussion on talk page about entering "Serbians" throughout whole "Statuta Valachorum" article. Show link. He should be TBAN'D too for the same reason as you. I'm trying that this article be accurate as possible, Sadko wants nothing to change in the article and calls me a Nazi and your suggestion is TBAN'D and me? I have been searching all week that the article be accurate as possible but you and Sadko didn't want to accept that. For that reason Sadko called me a follower of the Nazis and now you would TBAN'D and me. I have no more words. Mikola22 (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- Your attitude (also displayed in a number of edit summaries reading (quite literally) "I have spoken") seems to be "I am an expert, I have final say". This is not how we do things (and I note your DR was closed for lack of real discussion at the talk page). Also I am not defending Sadko I have said (for gods sake read what people write, I have already pointed this out once) he should be TBAN'D too for the same reason as you.Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Web results John Van Antwerp Fine is a reputable and reputable historian (and as far as I can tell his books are published by the University of Michigan Press, not the "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts", at least "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century" was which was the source I believe was brought to RSN.Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- In fact you are using an unspecified review of the source. I do not use review but I have found information about Bjelopavlići in that review(of Malcolm Noel book). And when I find that book then I will put this info in the article. I haven't put anything in the article yet since I don't have RS. I can tell his books are published by the University of Michigan Press, not the "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts", John Van Antwerp Fine cites Krunoslav Draganović and the same information was released in 1938 by "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts". Sadko uses hate speech and speak that I'm a fascist and a Nazi and John Van Antwerp Fine cites Krunoslav Draganović in his book. Otherwise what are you doing here? Article "Statuta Valachorum" waiting for you to refine it and make it more accurate. You reverted article and my edit and now you talk with me about Krunoslav Draganović. Sadko offends me that I'm a follower of fascists and Nazis because I edit articles to be accurate as possible and you talk about Krunoslav Draganović? So far I have not noticed any contribution from you? Except you're always around Sadko. We must all work to keep the articles accurate as possible and not because of that insult someone that he is a follower of fascists and Nazis. Mikola22 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven:Both users, care to explain>? I do not want be dragged into the mud because I pointed out to a bad use of sources and what not. Several other editors and myself are fighting this sort of vandalism and POV pushing and yet, I am to be found equally guilty? Take a look at this cherrypicking, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yugoslav_Partisans&type=revision&diff=934721120&oldid=934282768&diffmode=source The whole point was: I was reported for some "inappropriate claims", I gave links and proves that they were not inappropriate and that I had a solid basis for my assumption. I shall not answer on this thread any more, I have other projects to work on. cheers Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- You edit warred, that is one reason (we all forget or get carried away but even so). You do appear to have a similar battleground mentality towards preserving the Truth as Mikola22. Let me be clear, I came into this dispute (not the ANI, the dispute) because of RSN notices. Thus I am not aware of any history behind these articles or you editing history. As such I can only judge you based upon the intransigence I have seen form you towards compromise. Maybe you are right and every source Mikola22 uses is crap, or maybe (as in some cases does appear to be the case) the articles need a bit of a re-wording. The problem is that neither of you seem to be capable of compromise, its either your way or escalation. But as you both feel a TBAN in unfair.Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven:Both users, care to explain>? I do not want be dragged into the mud because I pointed out to a bad use of sources and what not. Several other editors and myself are fighting this sort of vandalism and POV pushing and yet, I am to be found equally guilty? Take a look at this cherrypicking, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yugoslav_Partisans&type=revision&diff=934721120&oldid=934282768&diffmode=source The whole point was: I was reported for some "inappropriate claims", I gave links and proves that they were not inappropriate and that I had a solid basis for my assumption. I shall not answer on this thread any more, I have other projects to work on. cheers Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- In fact you are using an unspecified review of the source. I do not use review but I have found information about Bjelopavlići in that review(of Malcolm Noel book). And when I find that book then I will put this info in the article. I haven't put anything in the article yet since I don't have RS. I can tell his books are published by the University of Michigan Press, not the "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts", John Van Antwerp Fine cites Krunoslav Draganović and the same information was released in 1938 by "Yugoslavian Academy of Sciences and Arts". Sadko uses hate speech and speak that I'm a fascist and a Nazi and John Van Antwerp Fine cites Krunoslav Draganović in his book. Otherwise what are you doing here? Article "Statuta Valachorum" waiting for you to refine it and make it more accurate. You reverted article and my edit and now you talk with me about Krunoslav Draganović. Sadko offends me that I'm a follower of fascists and Nazis because I edit articles to be accurate as possible and you talk about Krunoslav Draganović? So far I have not noticed any contribution from you? Except you're always around Sadko. We must all work to keep the articles accurate as possible and not because of that insult someone that he is a follower of fascists and Nazis. Mikola22 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal regarding Mikola22 and Sadko
Neither Mikola22 or Sadko may make changes relating to Balkan ethnicity (in any article) without first achieving consensus.Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yoicks. That sounds like the best.. Endorse/support.-- Deepfriedokra 10:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Doug Weller talk 15:09, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Note Sadko appears to have rejected this [[10]].Slatersteven (talk) 15:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal but it must state here what that consensus means. Does this mean and third party assistance, arbitration, etc because we may not reach consensus on talk page and Sadko did not come to joint discussion (Statuta Valachorum article). What if someone seeks consensus on talk page or elsewhere and there are no interested editors or as Sadko does not want to reach a joint decision in good faith. I can't wait for consensus five years. They must also be specified and articles which are under that consensus. There are also, unfortunately and some editors such as Slatersteven who reverted my edit although he does not know Croatian history but he must have noticed that my changes had RS. Then I guess he probably read that RS and in good faith accept that edit. I suppose he stood up for the Serbian name in the article and he probably expected a consensus for that change but where is consensus for puting Serbian name through article even though we have very little mention of Serbs in that area of Croatia. If someone(editor) wants to contribute to the accuracy of some article he can do a little research and contribute with something and not leave things as as they were. Maybe Slatersteven is administrator or moderator I don't know, so he just monitors it but in any case we are all working on the accuracy of the articles and not just me. However, punishment for insult must be because I am not follower of Nazis or Fascists. Sadko didn't work in good faith to make Statuta Valachorum article as accurate as possible, he came there with purpose to insult me. Mikola22 (talk) 22:31, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- Be rational enough to stop with the constant
aspirationsallegations. I am alive and well and can speak for myself and my motives, thank you. There is no insult, as the text and selective use of sources were criticised. I am generally inclined to reach a consensus with fellow editors and have a good discussion in order to actually get to something (a conclusion/solution), with editors who are capable of such a thing, and behave like adults, with Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility in mind. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 02:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- Be rational enough to stop with the constant
After this block: [11], Mikola22 continues in the same style:
Is there anything can be done at last?--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- What writes in the book of the Austrian historian? Greek-Orthodox. Then we must respect RS. Why you bother people with something that is properly made. Now you all see with which editors I must struggle to keep articles accurate as possible. They follow each other and they do not work in good faith. RS mentione Greek-Orthodox and they keep in the article Serbian-Orthodox. And how many such irregularities still exist. I'm alone here, and Sadko offends me that I'm a Nazi follower. Simply with these editors here should be no change for the better. Mikola22 (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22: I am not sure you understand what is at stake here. You say that you
agree with the proposal
about not makingchanges relating to Balkan ethnicity (in any article) without first achieving consensus
, while at the same time continuing the edit war at Vlachs in the history of Croatia, which most certainly is about Balkan ethnicity. --T*U (talk) 15:58, 14 January 2020 (UTC)- TU-nor This is not final decision. It must be specifically explained what it means and when this decision starts. Which consensus? Who entered Serbian-Orthodox information without consensus? On Reliable sources/Noticeboard is said that Austrian historian is RS. Everything is explained on talk page. I'm constantly in touch with two people, where are the editors, we need ten editors here. In the book and census writes Greek-Orthodox and someone puts Serbian-Orthodox. What should I do, to go to arbitration? Mikola22 (talk) 17:13, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22: I am not sure you understand what is at stake here. You say that you
I have an alternative proposal - [20] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- "...and that any further big or bold edits on the article and other articles about Vlachs would NEED consensus" is what I have more or less suggested. Plus you seem to be suggesting an IBAN. NO issue with any of this. I can support a no edit without consensus on all articles related to the Vlachs as well as an IBAN between the pair of you.Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Nnadigoodluck and WP:BADNAC
A few months ago I came across Nnadigoodluck when I noticed AFD space being flooded with edits (and a few AFDs I initiated were changed.) There were several bad clerking actions ranging from NACs to inappropriate relists, which I laid out here less than 2 months ago, which included:
- this inappropriate relist
- this relist with no reasoning which was later overturned and deleted
- same, subsequently deleted
And you can obviously see the rest in the diff I provided above. I'll also note that I am not the only editor who has raised concerns with Nnadigoodluck over their AFD activities. Fast forward a month and a half, this user again pops up on my watchlist with several BADNACs, though there are some okayish AFD edits, they still seem to be overly concerned with dabbling in AFD clerking.
Just two days ago, another user brought up some bad relists and NACS here. I also noticed this and reminded them of our previous discussion (though one mistake was mine, I misread a vote and thought it was this editor.) Not long after this conversation, with no resolution, this editor again removed the discussion - I understand that they are allowed to do this and removal of the discussion indicates that they've read the feedback and it shows an unwillingness to actually change their behavior.. Within hours of this discussion they went back to clerking AFD and this led to two DRVs related to their closures[21][22] and several more closes, some of which are okay, but in my opinion, demonstrate the same unwillingness to change their behavior. Today, another editor brought up some concerns which were dismissed twice. Their AFD stats are also misleading and it shows a clear lack of experience as the bulk of their votes were padded votes, meaning they were at the tail end where it was inevitably going to result in keeping/deleting or pile-on votes.
So the tl;dr here is that while there are some okay edits, Nnadigoodluck lacks the understanding and frankly the competence to be clerking AFD and I'd like to request a ban from them doing so for an extended period of time. Praxidicae (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm the most recent editor to attempt to communicate with Nnadigoodluck, after putting their TP on my watchlist a few months ago during the last AFD-related conversation. I'll admit, I was a little bit peeved that they removed my talk-page notice in the middle of a conversation, but... I'm not interested in edit-warring with this editor on their own TP, I have better hills to die on.
- Nonetheless, I do think this is a problem - A lack of understanding is one thing, but this consistent failure to engage or even entertain any idea that there may be an issue with their behaviour is exhausting. For the sake of maintaining the goodwill of the editors who've tried to help this user, I'd agree that a ban from clerking AFD is a good idea, perhaps with a provision that if they manage to improve their AFD stats they could be permitted to try their hand at clerking, maybe a year or two down the line. -- a they/them | argue | contribs 17:07, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you to Praxidicae for the well-researched diffs. I've only looked thoroughly at at the first 7-8 diffs you identified and I'm, too, troubled by Nnadigoodluck's good faith attempts at closing or relisting deletion discussions but without any clear understanding of when to close and when relisting is appropriate. There were a couple relists that might've been useful, but on balance, most of them were either clear delete/merge or clear delete. So, I'm going to build on this thread you started and move a proposal... Doug Mehus T·C 00:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - I haven't researched the history of AFD clerking by User:Nnadigoodluck yet, but I concur with User:Praxidicae and User:Alfie that it is troubling to have two closures by the same non-administrator appealed to DRV in 48 hours. I think that one of the closes is completely wrong, and the other one shows poor judgment on the part of the closer. I now see that other editors have already tried to discuss this. I haven't yet researched the history in detail, but it troubles me. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon, That's the same way I feel. Looking through Nnadigoodluck's talkpage, one of the closes appears correct and the other was a bad close. One, two, or even three bad closes, okay, that's fine, so long as a willingness to learn from one's mistakes is being demonstrated. But, as you rightly note, Prax (hope he or she doesn't mind me shortening their nickname) has done his or her homework and there is indeed a troubling number of incorrect closures. I don't think we need to outright ban Nnadigoodluck from AfD or anything, but at least from closing and relisting. Reviewing the policies and essay and closure by non-admins would be helpful. Doug Mehus T·C 00:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment— Praxidicae’s decision to bring this to an ANI seems like the only step or the only viable option they could come up with as from my observation of the diffs they have clearly exhausted all other options. I have also noticed Nnadigoodluck close an AFD they themselves opened although I’m not sure this is proper as this seemed to me like a very controversial move/action. Having said that, I’d play the devils advocate here seeing as he has put in good work in other aspects of this collaborative project in terms of content creation & probably is one of the very few Nigerian editors who are still very much active in this community. I fear a ban from AFD clerking activities (although which could as well be the plausible action here) coupled with an administrator stripping away his Autopatrolled rights for off wiki activities only admins were privileged to view/observe might “hit him hard” & as direct consequence, he may decide to permanently exit the project. I see potential in this individual & as Per editor retention is there a less harsh way of dealing with this? Perhaps a final warning? Celestina007 (talk) 00:54, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Celestina007: Your claim of me closing AfDs that I nominated myself is misleading and untrue. I only close as Speedy keep Nomination withdrawn as seen in here and here. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 01:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nnadigoodluck please be calm, I am on your side here & trying to make the community let you off the hook with nothing other than a last warning & not necessarily ban you for some months as I see potential in you. You have made some quite bizarre AFD clerking actions in the past of which ironically/coincidentally I personally was going to query you about today via e-mail before I became aware of this ANI case.Celestina007 (talk) 01:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Celestina007: It's okay. Just trying to clear some things that might presume as if I don't know what I am doing. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 01:38, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Celestina007, Thank you for your reply. Did someone suggest stripping away his autopatrolled rights? Apologies if I missed it. I don't think we need to go to that step, but rather, just a prohibition on closing or relisting certain types of deletion discussions, at least in the short- to medium-term. Nnadigoodluck seems like a good editor and I have no doubt his closes were done in good faith, but I just think there needs to be a restriction on closing or relisting certain types of discussions. He could still be permitted to close discussions that are unanimous in favour of keep or redirect, for example? Doug Mehus T·C 01:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dmehus it wasn’t suggested that his Autopatrolled rights be stripped off but an administrator, I’m not sure who now, perharps Yunshui I believe was the one who carried out this actions after saying he carried out certain off wiki investigations & made some allegations with proof only admins were privileged to view. Yunshui did leave a message on his Nnadigoodluck’s talk page regarding this but strange it isn’t on his talk page anymore perhaps removed or archived by Nnadigoodluck I can’t tell. Anyway I can tell Nnadigoodluck is here to build an encyclopedia and all said & done he is definitely a net positive.Celestina007 (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Celestina007, Ah, thanks for clarifying the autopatrolled rights change was in reference to a past admin action. Yes, I agree that he is a net a positive to the encyclopedia as well, and I'm open to an XfD or AfD mentorship, but I do think that until the mentorship is complete, he should be restricted from closing (he can still participate) in at least AfDs. Doug Mehus T·C 01:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dmehus seems like a bright idea & even Nnadigoodluck has accepted this already. Which indicates an editor willing to learn & do good work here.Celestina007 (talk) 01:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Celestina007, Yep, agreed. : ) Doug Mehus T·C 01:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dmehus seems like a bright idea & even Nnadigoodluck has accepted this already. Which indicates an editor willing to learn & do good work here.Celestina007 (talk) 01:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Celestina007, Ah, thanks for clarifying the autopatrolled rights change was in reference to a past admin action. Yes, I agree that he is a net a positive to the encyclopedia as well, and I'm open to an XfD or AfD mentorship, but I do think that until the mentorship is complete, he should be restricted from closing (he can still participate) in at least AfDs. Doug Mehus T·C 01:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dmehus it wasn’t suggested that his Autopatrolled rights be stripped off but an administrator, I’m not sure who now, perharps Yunshui I believe was the one who carried out this actions after saying he carried out certain off wiki investigations & made some allegations with proof only admins were privileged to view. Yunshui did leave a message on his Nnadigoodluck’s talk page regarding this but strange it isn’t on his talk page anymore perhaps removed or archived by Nnadigoodluck I can’t tell. Anyway I can tell Nnadigoodluck is here to build an encyclopedia and all said & done he is definitely a net positive.Celestina007 (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Praxidicae has been been hounding me for many months. I think that they are obsessed with me and any of my edit is always wrong in their sight, they won't let me rest, to the extent of wrongfully accusing me of relisting an AfD in which I voted in as seen here, which they later came back apologizing. Some months ago when I started AfD clerking newly, they even proposed that I stay away completely from AfD clerking in a very bad manner, without even giving me a chance or even suggesting ways that I can improve as an editor as seen here. Saying that I currently lack the understanding and competence to be clerking AfD is utterly false and untrue, because I've improved a lot, more than I was when I started newly and can be seen in most of my recent AfD closing and relists which are all in good standing for the past one week in [23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66]. If they think that I made mistakes many months ago when I was still a newbie, they should judge it with my current editing history and know if I'm still on the same track or not. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 00:56, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nnadigoodluck, I've not looked through all your linked diffs, but looking through the first few, I see no evidence of Praxidicae hounding you. In at least one case, I think you are selectively cherry-picking an example where Praxidicae admitted afterward their error. In most of the others, Praxidicae was right to point out a number of bad non-admin closures on your part. I would support a mentorship proposed by Schazjmd below, but I think until you complete the mentorship, you need to be restricted from closing or relisting at least AfDs. Sound good? Doug Mehus T·C 01:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Dmehus: Sounds okay. I'm open to it. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 01:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nnadigoodluck, I've not looked through all your linked diffs, but looking through the first few, I see no evidence of Praxidicae hounding you. In at least one case, I think you are selectively cherry-picking an example where Praxidicae admitted afterward their error. In most of the others, Praxidicae was right to point out a number of bad non-admin closures on your part. I would support a mentorship proposed by Schazjmd below, but I think until you complete the mentorship, you need to be restricted from closing or relisting at least AfDs. Sound good? Doug Mehus T·C 01:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Yuck. The subject was cautioned on their web page about their activity at AFD, and the subject responds by listing 44 AFDs that they have closed. I said that I hadn't researched the details, but the subject is doing the research for me. That is too many AFDs for an editor whose AFD closes have raised concerns, and it raises further concerns that they don't know when they are doing too much and doing it poorly.
- Comment - This isn't directly relevant, but indirectly relevant material indicates whether an editor has the judgment and discretion to work at an advanced level in a complex electronic workplace. It appears that Nnadigoodluck was warned at least twice, less than six months ago, about removing speedy deletion tags from pages that they had created. That implies that we have an editor who either doesn't yet understand deletion policy or only has a recent understanding of it and is rushing into deletion policy too quickly, as well as simply an editor who is pushing limits, when pushing limits isn't a good idea in Wikipedia. The subject and I have done enough research for it to be clear to me that mentorship isn't likely to work. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Although restricting Nnadigoodluck from clerking AFDs for some time may be necessary, is there any AFD expert who might be willing to take Nnadigoodluck on as an apprentice? The editor seems really interested in this area, but lacks the experience to do the work yet. An apprenticeship could help Nnadigoodluck develop the skills to resume AFD work later on. (Hit an edit conflict trying to post this; now in the light of Nnadigoodluck's comment, I'm unsure whether they'd be open to this proposal, but adding it as a suggestion anyway.) Schazjmd (talk) 01:00, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Schazjmd: I'm open to this proposal and thanks for bringing it up. I want to assist in building this encyclopedia in my own little way. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 01:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nnadigoodluck, I'm glad to hear that. I think with the help of an editor experienced at clerking AFDs, you could gain the skills to be a real asset in that area. I hope someone appropriate is willing to work with you on it. I have no experience with it or I would offer my help. Schazjmd (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Schazjmd: I'm open to this proposal and thanks for bringing it up. I want to assist in building this encyclopedia in my own little way. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 01:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- When I opened this topic up for discussion 9 months ago there seemed to be some agreement that NAC at AfD should be highly curtailed. In looking at a wider range of AfDs since I've become a sysop I've only become increasingly convinced that this is the correct case. So I am opposed to the principle of non-sysop AfD mentorship on this basis beyond the specific issues noted here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal for time-limited restriction
Procedural Comment Please !vote for only one of the following proposals. Doug Mehus T·C 00:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal A: For a period of not less than three months, Nnadigoodluck is hereby restricted from closing or relisting all deletion discussions.
Proposal B: For a period of not less than three months, Nnadigoodluck is hereby restricted from closing or relisting AfD deletion discussions.
Proposal C: For a period of not less than three months, Nnadigoodluck is hereby restricted from closing or relisting all deletion discussions where there is trending consensus towards delete.
Proposal D: For a period of not less than three months, Nnadigoodluck is hereby restricted from closing or relisting AfD deletion discussions where there is trending consensus towards delete.
Proposal E: For a period of not less than x months (where x is identified by consensus below), Nnadigoodluck is hereby restricted from y to z deletion discussions (specified by consensus below, y refers to the prohibition (i.e., closing, relisting, etc.) and z refers to the type of XfD (i.e., AfD, TfD, MfD, etc.)).
- What happened? Did you run out of letters? Lord.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:02, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bbb23, Le sigh. Doug Mehus has been lecturing us on how Wikipedia works since his arrival. He has about 4,000 edits, and nearly 40% of them are to Wikipedia space. To say that his input often lacks insight would be an understatement. I foresee some restrictions heading that way. Guy (help!) 18:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal F: Per the added proposal by Schazjmd and comment by Barkeep49 above, Nnadigoodluck is to be restricted from closing or relisting AfDs (or, alternatively, all XfDs) pending sponsorship and successful completion of an administrator-led mentorship arrangement. Nnadigoodluck may still participate in said AfD/XfD discussions during the mentorship, but not close them.
- Support F (for all XFDs) because I think that option has the best potential to benefit both Wikipedia and Nnadigoodluck. Schazjmd (talk) 02:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support F (indifferent to AfDs or all XfDs) per Schazjmd and my comments above. (Sidebar: you placed your vote in the correct spot, Schazjmd.) As an alternative, in light of Praxidicae's comment below, I would alternatively, as a second choice, support A or any other of the other proposals when consensus has been determined. Doug Mehus T·C 02:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support A as the closest to what will work, because I have no confidence that a mentorship will work, and I do not want to waste the effort of the community and the subject. I haven't seen the subject at MFD, but I don't have confidence that they understand drafts. I wouldn't have seen the subject at CFD or TFD or RFD. I have seen the subject too many times yesterday at DRV to have confidence that mentoring will work, after the subject was hostile to the suggestion that they were doing too much work at AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:16, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I honestly don't see anything wrong with the behaviour here, and I've looked through the initial diffs and the 44 AfDs posted by Nnadigoodluck. I think the DRV thing is a red herring because neither of their closes at DRV were technically wrong, though the no consensus close should be backed out on a technicality (delete was a better option.) I'm not sure I see the problems with the relists, either - is the nominator saying the relists were inappropriate because no further conversation existed? This conversation concerns me, because the initial post asks for the user to stop clerking entirely in the very first post, even though in the third link MBisanz relisted the discussion with no reasoning. And the 44 AfDs Nnadigoodluck posted, to me, demonstrates a level of competence in closing AfDs as a non-administrative capacity. On review, I too would be frustrated to have been accused of not doing good work without an accurate explanation as to what I was doing was wrong, and going directly to "you shouldn't do this" instead of allowing the user to have a chance to learn how to do things better.
- There are three things I want to say to Nnadigoodluck in terms of clerking and one in terms of AfDs generally. The clerking: 1) if you're clerking in this area, have Wikipedia:Relist bias open in another tab or browser and work through the steps each time you want to relist, making absolutely sure your relist won't be controversial. 2) if you relist, make sure you explain why you're relisting when you relist (and if you're relisting for the sake of relisting, you probably shouldn't relist.) 3) if you close a discussion, you need to be 100% sure your close is absolutely correct and could not be closed any other way. Almost all of your closes are fine, but going forward, I would ask you to avoid closing AfDs as no consensus, or any closes that could be closed as anything other than keep, per WP:BADNAC. In terms of the AfDs generally: At this point, I would encourage you to participate in AfDs rather than clerk them, mostly per Barkeep49's comment above regarding non-admin AfD clerks. But in terms of any sort of ban, I don't think this has been handled well at all by anyone and strongly oppose any sanctions, and that this ANI thread should just serve as both a general warning and an example to Nnadigoodluck of how they can improve as an editor. SportingFlyer T·C 08:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the kind offer of another editor to mentor them, I think this kind of misses the point. This isn't like writing articles or editing broad topics, it's a narrow maintenance area that is somewhat important but should be left to more experienced users (preferably admins but that's another discussion.) So, Support A, an outright ban for 3 months at minimum from doing any maintenance related activities at AFD/xfd. And I saw a comment above about editor retention and fear this user will leave the project and while I understand the overall concern, I'm not sure this should be considered if a user's sole purpose is to relist/NAC afd. As a note, I was not originally concerned about other fd areas but I am concerned that they will move on to that area if they're banned at AFD only. Praxidicae (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support (for all XfDs where applicable) proposals F, A, C, B, D, E in descending order of likelihood to produce good results. (Yes, I reject the proponent's demands to !vote for only one possibility; this is not a bureaucracy.) There is clearly a problem here which needs to be addressed, but we do not need to set ourselves up for yet another ANI on the same problem by, e.g., restricting AfD closures and relistings only to have the problem behavior migrate to another XfD, or shift from relisting of obviously delete-leaning discussions to relisting of obviously keep-leaning ones, or whatever, if we can avoid that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, Fair point. You're right, there's no reason not to !vote for more than option or to rank ordering one's preferences. I'll strike that portion from my nomination. Doug Mehus T·C 09:17, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose all – One of the DRVs was endorsed, and I don't think the second one will end up overturned either. There have been other NACers, and admin, who are overturned much more frequently than this editor, and whom nobody suggests tbanning from AFDs. I think in order to show a close is a bad close, it needs to be overturned by consensus, and in order to show a closer is a bad closer, they need to have some bad closes. So the evidence isn't there showing this editor to be closing in a disruptive way. As for the relists, yeah, they're relisting too often, but that's really pretty harmless (an improperly relisted page can still be closed right away), and that's the kind of problem we should fix by teaching rather than by sanctioning. I don't see a case made for sanctions here of any kind. – Levivich 18:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to close with no action
I don't think there's any doubt of Nnadigoodluck's good faith here, their actions viewed holistically appear to be within the bounds of what normally happens at Xfd - and yes, some might be considered incorrect, but that's not really Nnadigoodluck's fault specifically because the guidance is (perhaps intentionally) vague and in any case nobody's required to be perfect as long as their actions don't appear capricious.
I think we could do with some clearer consensus guidance at WP:NAC or a subpage on when to leave it to an admin (e.g. minimum numbers of !votes for a relist, maximum number of relists before a no-consensus close, minimum time / !vote count before a non-admin SNOW or speedy keep etc). Not so much to constrain people as to prevent drama like this. I am mindful, though, that admins are not special, and the main reason for admin closure of XfD is (a) the technical need for an admin to perform an actual deletion and (b) the fact that admins have at least some measure of community assessment of their knowledge of policy, so this personal preference for better guidance may be considered unnecessary by others. Guy (help!) 08:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I'd have no problem supporting this proposal, Guy, if the nom, Praxidicae, supports it (though I note even the subject has agreed to a voluntary curtailing of XfD closures while undergoing a mentorship). So, call it a conditional support if Praxidicae, and others who've expressed opinions below and above this discussion, support(s) it. Otherwise, it's an oppose. As well, S Marshall's and Britishfinance's comments with respect to the necessity, or not, of further revisions to WP:BADNAC are particularly compelling. --Doug Mehus T·C 23:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose to doing nothing here. The over-involvement of Nnadigoodluck in XFDs is problematic. A closure with no action would risk being seen as encouragement. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Strong Support for the suggestion by Guy for a clarification on Non-administrative closures at XFD. The number of recent DRVs involving NAC and including claims of BADNAC show that the guidelines for such closures should be clarified. Maybe the guidelines were deliberately left vague because it was thought that NACs at XFD would be rare and unambiguous; they are neither rare nor unambiguous. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW I also strongly support the idea of clarifying WP:NAC. I would suggest that Robert McClenon is the perfect person to help move that forward. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, well. Okay, I guess I am tasked. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support both closing this with no action and clarifying WP:NAC (and hopefully when to relist as well.) I just hope we haven't run off a good faith editor doing good work from the project with this heavy-handed response to a very small issue (especially since consensus at DRV is that one of their closes was absolutely okay and the other was likely okay as well, or at least being considered as okay by several experienced members of the community.) SportingFlyer T·C 00:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - I am trying to start a discussion at the non-administrative close talk page about the need to restrict non-administrative closes. By the way, I don't think that this has been a heavy-handed response to a very small issue. Maybe I am in a very small minority, but if so, maybe I shouldn't have been the one who was tasked to move the discussion forward. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Please don't add rules about NACs. Firstly, it's a disproportionate response. The way to deal with poor judgment by an individual good faith editor is to constrain that individual good faith editor, not to constrain every volunteer in the project. Secondly, because Wikipedia doesn't have a widespread problem with poor NACs. We've got two by the same editor at deletion review, but this is the first time that's happened in ten years. Thirdly because writing explicit rules generates a clear roadmap showing exactly how to game the system.—S Marshall T/C 07:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Agre with S Marshall. This is a strange ANI where a well-meaning and enthusiastic 5-month-duration editor (which is to be welcomed), but who never seems to have ever !voted at an AfD (AFAICS here [67]), is closing lots of AfDs, and some have issues? We don't need an in-depth investigation or detailed proposals, we just need the editor in question to stop using the closer until they have experience. If we need a rule, it is that nobody should be closing at AfD unless they have at least 100 correct !votes logged. The real issue here is that a small number of admins/senior editors do a disproportionate amount of work on most WP Boards (AfD being one), and those editors are starting to disappear. For some reason, the new admins don't seem to be high-productivity editors, and thus the problem is worsening. The real issue is not that NAC needs tightening, but that at some stage in the future, we are going to have to give experienced non-admin editors the ability to close as delete under NAC. Trying to address the issues of an over-enthusiastic editor by going against the inevitable reality makes no sense, imho. Britishfinance (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Britishfinance, You've got it all wrong by saying that I've never voted at AfD. The link you're using is not right and not really my username. Take a look here for the right link. And saying that my closing at AfD have issues is untrue, I guess you've not taken a look at them. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 19:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, my bad Nnadigoodluck, not as bad as I thought, however, 5 months in WP is not the right time to start closing at AfD – give yourself more time before doing this level of closing. NACs are going to be an even more important part of WP (per my cmt above), however, NACs always come under a higher level of scrutiny (for rational reasons), and thus you should only be closing when it is obvious (e.g. don't damage your reputation before you even get started). thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Britishfinance, You've got it all wrong by saying that I've never voted at AfD. The link you're using is not right and not really my username. Take a look here for the right link. And saying that my closing at AfD have issues is untrue, I guess you've not taken a look at them. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 19:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. We've already had to address the same problem behavior more than once, so it is time to do something about it, not continue to ignore it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure. The "something" is fixing WP:NAC rather than beating up a user whose only real offence is to be Tigger. Guy (help!) 22:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Not mutually exclusive. It's a common outcome when some party is repeatedly misunderstanding and misapplying a policy, guideline, procedure, or other process (hereafter "P&G" for short), after various objections and previous examinations of the user's behavior, for consensus both a) to enjoin/discourage the party from continuing to do so, and b) to tweak the wording of the P&G to forestall the same misunderstanding of it arising again. The latter part probably comes up more often at the talk pages of the P&Gs (e.g., it's very frequent at MoS), but there is no reason ANI can't also come to the conclusion that revision is needed along with a behavioral change being needed (and/or a remedy to ensure that outcome). Due to ANI not being a content (even an internal content) venue, and P&G talk pages not being disciplinary ones, it's generally going to result in separate discussions anyway, one for the behavioral matter and one for the P&G wording matter; the difference is simply going to be in the order in which they take place. I don't see this particular case as just a "Tigger" over-enthusiasm thing; there's a level of obstinacy in evidence. All that said, I actually concur with S Marshall, above. WP:NAC and related pages (WP:RMNAC, etc.) already have a WP:CREEP and WP:BUREAUCRACY problem. So any revision we do to them should probably be along the lines of just increased clarity and concision, not expansion with new rule-making. Personally, I think almost all of it could just be outright deleted and replaced with something like "Except where a specific process notes otherwise (e.g. at WP:RFARB), non-admins may assess consensus in and formally close any discussions that are ripe for such resolution, provided the consensus result is actually clear (which can include an obvious case of "no consensus"), and the closure assessment accurately reflects that consensus (or the failure of one to emerge).", and leave it at that, and WP would be just fine. WP was just fine before all this NAC rule-mongering, after all. The actual problem in this case is someone (whether an admin or not) improperly closing or reopening AfD discussions in ways that defy the consensus in them. We don't actually need new rules about that, and we probably don't even need clarified ones, since it's not a widespread problem but an uncommon individual one, which seems to resolve to a failure to apply WP:Common sense and WP:Consensus principles, even aside from what WP:NAC says in more detail. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:17, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure. The "something" is fixing WP:NAC rather than beating up a user whose only real offence is to be Tigger. Guy (help!) 22:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment, on a proposal above:
- "Except where a specific process notes otherwise (e.g. at WP:RFARB), non-admins may assess consensus in and formally close any discussions that are ripe for such resolution, provided the consensus result is actually clear (which can include an obvious case of "no consensus"), and the closure assessment accurately reflects that consensus (or the failure of one to emerge)."
- That is supposed to be clear? I have legal qualifications, and I don't know where to begin trying to construe that. Narky Blert (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment One of the two closes this user made at DRV was endorsed, and the other is on its way to being endorsed. Two of the three relists weren't good, but those can be easily fixed. I still have no idea why we have knives out when this issue could have been solved with a little guidance. SportingFlyer T·C 03:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Close / no action per SportingFlyer; any concerns seem to have been overblown and if there is an issue it would appear to be a systematic one. ——SN54129 08:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support – per my and others' comments above – Levivich 18:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Nocturnalnow violation of topic ban?
- note: I started this as a new section after the two comments immediate below were made, as the subject has changed since closing the above discussion. --Jayron32 17:45, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Isn't Nocturnalnow still topic-banned from American Politics after 1932? 92.19.29.51 (talk) 17:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- That should be discussed. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I would agree that the George W. Bush administration occurred in the United States and after 1932, and that Nocturnalnow did try to add material to an article about that topic. --Jayron32 17:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, what's the proper protocol for handling the transgression like this? I am an administrator, but I do not administrate within post 1932 US politics due to my own personal biases, save for cases of obvious vandalism, restricting myself to it serving as an editor in that area. And, as you can see from the edit summary, I objected based on policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- My protocol is to first assess if the person in question intends to abide by their editing restrictions or not. People do sometimes forget that they have editing restrictions or may be unaware of the exact nature of them, especially after 5 years, which is about how long this one is. My usual protocol is if the person in question immediately agrees to desist and recognizes that they were in error, we take it as a "no harm/no foul" event, and we all go on with our lives. If the person in question refuses to disengage and/or continues to protest that they aren't bound by their topic ban, some additional help in remembering the nature of that ban may be useful. --Jayron32 18:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I did not realize the info about Wesley Clark's conversations with a military general at the Pentagon amounts to post 1932 politics? Please explain if you don't mind. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- My protocol is to first assess if the person in question intends to abide by their editing restrictions or not. People do sometimes forget that they have editing restrictions or may be unaware of the exact nature of them, especially after 5 years, which is about how long this one is. My usual protocol is if the person in question immediately agrees to desist and recognizes that they were in error, we take it as a "no harm/no foul" event, and we all go on with our lives. If the person in question refuses to disengage and/or continues to protest that they aren't bound by their topic ban, some additional help in remembering the nature of that ban may be useful. --Jayron32 18:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, what's the proper protocol for handling the transgression like this? I am an administrator, but I do not administrate within post 1932 US politics due to my own personal biases, save for cases of obvious vandalism, restricting myself to it serving as an editor in that area. And, as you can see from the edit summary, I objected based on policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oops, I see I myself made a political connection with my subtitle. You're right, I'm wrong. Apologies to all. I immediately agree to desist and this transgression was in error. Best wishes. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow, I'm not sure how "Clark claimed Bush planned to take out seven countries" (paraphrase of the edit) is not post 1932 politics. I didn't know about your editing restriction when I responded to you on the article talk page, and my comment there suggested that it made more sense in a article on Bush foreign policy. Schazjmd (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow Could you speak about your recent edits to: Christopher Steele, Bruce Ohr, Stefan Halper, Hunter Biden, et al. You've made many edits to these pages and they seem all very related to post 1932 politics. // Timothy::talk 22:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have the same opinion as many in the intelligence community which is that Steele is about national security and not politics, Ohr is about the FBI, not politics, Halper is about the FBI and national security and not politics and Hunter is about normal business activities and not politics.
- Now the conspiracy theorists with the tin foil hats try to link all these stories to some sort of "deep state" manipulating political events, but I don't think you are siding with those conspiracy nuts, are you? Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, the need to defeat someone's presidential bid is only about national security and politics doesn't come into play in any way. Edit: Looking at the history of your topic ban, and rereading your comment, I wonder if you're trying to make some lame point. Except you've missed the fact that most of us are able to appreciate the interplay of politics with other stuff. For example, it's perfectly possible for someone's motivations to have been solely about 'national security', while what they're trying to do definitely involves US politics. Hence also why someone like me with strongly negative views of Trump and fairly negative views of Bush can still safely say both of those edits clearly related to post 1932 US politics. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow's edits are clear-cut violations of their topic ban, and their argument that they're talking about intelligence rather than politics in a topic that is radioactive with political manipulation is disingenuous. I also note this edit [68], in which Nocturnalnow removed Deepfriedokra's warning on their talkpage as a "personal attack," which is nonsense, but indicative of somebody who isn't prepared to think objectively about their conduct. I recommend a block, this has gone beyond a one-off topic ban violation. I'm not going to do it, because I don't have the time today for the inevitable follow-up discussions, but this is a textbook example of boundary-pushing that has gotten way out of hand. Acroterion (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- So Nocturnalnow is Tbanned from US politics; makes a bunch of edits to US security articles; says security is nothing to do with politics; implicitly calls those who disagree
conspiracy theorists with the tin foil hats
; wants to appeal the tban anyway; and does so by calling it anobviously wrongful ban in the first place
, as well asstupid
andidiotic
.Gotta love respect for community norms. ——SN54129 13:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- So Nocturnalnow is Tbanned from US politics; makes a bunch of edits to US security articles; says security is nothing to do with politics; implicitly calls those who disagree
- Nocturnalnow's edits are clear-cut violations of their topic ban, and their argument that they're talking about intelligence rather than politics in a topic that is radioactive with political manipulation is disingenuous. I also note this edit [68], in which Nocturnalnow removed Deepfriedokra's warning on their talkpage as a "personal attack," which is nonsense, but indicative of somebody who isn't prepared to think objectively about their conduct. I recommend a block, this has gone beyond a one-off topic ban violation. I'm not going to do it, because I don't have the time today for the inevitable follow-up discussions, but this is a textbook example of boundary-pushing that has gotten way out of hand. Acroterion (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, the need to defeat someone's presidential bid is only about national security and politics doesn't come into play in any way. Edit: Looking at the history of your topic ban, and rereading your comment, I wonder if you're trying to make some lame point. Except you've missed the fact that most of us are able to appreciate the interplay of politics with other stuff. For example, it's perfectly possible for someone's motivations to have been solely about 'national security', while what they're trying to do definitely involves US politics. Hence also why someone like me with strongly negative views of Trump and fairly negative views of Bush can still safely say both of those edits clearly related to post 1932 US politics. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Can almost everything be linked to American politics?
I'd also like to appeal my topic ban, which I accepted simply out of respect for the system. It was an obviously wrongful ban in the first place. Perhaps someone can tell me on my talk page how to appeal such a stupid ban with such an idiotic and Kafkaesque spirit and non-definition. Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, isn't this pretty much a textbook example of what you discussed above? John from Idegon (talk) 03:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no intention of either blocking Nocturnalnow nor raising any objection should anyone else block them. --Jayron32 04:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: It is always a poor idea to object to the topic ban right after you have violated it. I would recommend that you must move far away from this thread as well as this particular topic and instead work on subjects such as Reality Italy, Moses, Diadema, etc. for next 6 months before appealing the topic ban because right now you are only getting closer to an indef block. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk) 06:21, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no intention of either blocking Nocturnalnow nor raising any objection should anyone else block them. --Jayron32 04:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Welp. Mostly it's those matters related to political strife made right here in the good ol' USA. And therefore to government agencies, politicians, and others engaged in said strife.-- Deepfriedokra 07:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, and those who have been weaponized in said strife. I think that covers everyone named above.-- Deepfriedokra 07:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Each one of the articles listed above mentions connections of one sort or another with the Trump administration in the lead. You can say that they are primarily about something else, but to argue that they aren't about US politics at all seems futile. We have a load of articles that don't mention Trump, or US politics, at all. Those are the ones you should be editing until you get your Tban overturned. GirthSummit (blether) 07:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't recommend you appeal your topic ban if you've just violated it by getting involved in something which mentioned the purported foreign policy plans of a US president [69]. And you violated again by making another edit which explicitly mentioned the current US president [70] and in a very weird way. And in fact didn't even only mention Trump but mentioned the need to "defeat" him, and I think we can be confident this referring to the need to defeat him in the game of tiddly winks. I mean heck, it's easy to see without needing to visit the source that the NYT themselves considered it a part of politics. I don't know why you were even topic banned, but the fact you don't seem to appreciate these related to post 1932 US politics is enough to make me think your editing in the area must be terrible. Nil Einne (talk) 08:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- What Nil Einne said. I'm for closing this if you understand that this was a violation and undertake not to do it again, but otherwise I think you're likely to end up blocked. Guy (help!) 16:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, this message from User:Deepfriedokra, while containing a kinda/sorta weird section title but not a single offensive letter in the paragraph below, was removed by User:Nocturnalnow as, if you can believe it, a "personal attack." This sort of editor is why they wrote WP:NOTHERE. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:B956:C2F2:1E1A:AA37 (talk) 18:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's interestingly ironic. as I voiced my concerns of user's incivility and personal attacks, and I rather think it proves my concerns are justified..-- Deepfriedokra 18:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Which of their edits was not a violation of the topic ban?
Looking at the 100 most recent contributions by Nocturnalnow to articles or article talk pages, we have:
- 7 edits to Wesley Clark and its talk page, about "Outing Bush Administrations "taking down 7 countries" plan"
- 3 edits to Christopher Steele, with an edit summary like "Inspector General: "Steele had a “passionate” belief in the need to defeat Mr. Trump.""
- 17 edits to Bruce Ohr and its talk page, with lengthy posts[71] about Crossfire Hurricane (FBI investigation), the investigation of the Trump election and Russian interference
- 2 edits to Abu Zubaydah, which are more distant from the topic ban (though not really unrelated either, a Guantanamo bay detainee)
- 9 edits to Stefan Halper and its talkpage: edit summary "The New York Times reported that for Ronald Reagan's 1980 campaign, Halper was the "person in charge" of running a "highly secretive" operation to get inside information of the Carter Administration's foreign policy and pass it to the Reagan campaign" says it all
- dozens of edits to Hunter Biden and its talk page, rather clearly part of the topic ban: also three edits to closely related article BHR Partners
- 1 edit to Yanni, seems wholly unrelated to the topic ban
- 2 edits to John Solomon (political commentator), e.g. to the section "Pro-Donald Trump opinion pieces"
- 1 edit to Saugus High School (California), not part of the topic ban
- Loads of edits to Greta Thunberg and its talk page, most rather dubious and partisan, but not part of the topic ban.
Basically, from their last 50+ edits, i.e. from the last 2 months, 95% are violations of his topic ban. Instead of lifting it, perhaps it should be enforced? Fram (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Uhh, that appears to be mostly US politics related. Eostrix (talk) 09:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, Nocturnalnow even received a discretionary sanctions alert for post 1932 US politics, I think after a 1RR violation at Hunter Biden [72]. But they just posted those 2 comments then later removed the alert [73]. They are obviously entitled to remove it, but if they had a known topic ban it would make sense to seek clarification on why they were given an alert, since they were clearly not editing anything to do with post 1932 US politics. Or at least mention their topic ban meant the alert was pointless since they would never edit the area..... Their editing profile suggests either someone who has absolutely zero respect for their topic ban, or someone who simply forgot about it. Since it's fairly old, and they seem to have been fairly inactive for long stretches (only really editing Jimbo Wales's talk page), normally I'd suggest they simply forgot about it. And if that's the case, although it's an editor's responsibility to remember their restrictions, it'll be fine with letting them off with a warning. But their above comments seem to suggest they're willfully ignoring the topic ban. Or maybe someone who's understanding of it is so poor they lack the WP:competence to edit here. Nil Einne (talk) 13:46, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- It should be obvious that I have avoided and tried to avoid all of the many direct politicle articles like Clinton or Trump or OAC or Democrat Party, Republican Party, Bernie Sanders etc.etc. In terms of why I first was topic banned it happened in a similar pile-on back when I dared to inject some due but negative info about Huma Abedin (btw, would she still be considered politics??? i.e. could I edit her now?) and a ban re: Abedin was being considered here yet an Admin. decided instead to give me the Kafkaesque like ( really hard to know exactly what the limitations are ) post 1932 US politics ban...btw, have any of you really done a thought experiment about the appropriateness of such a ban in our project? A full blown time limited block would have been much more just.
- I have tried to stay completely away from USA politics which is why I limited myself to Jimbo's talk page but then some brand new editor complained about my edits there, even there, being against this ban. But I digress, even after coming back to regular articles I try to see where I can make, imo, obvious improvements and this case with Wesley Clark is an example wherein a featured article makes no reference...zero..to a matter the Subject put a lot of attention into bringing to the public's attention. This particular Blp is the one which, imo, needs the most improvement because to the millions of people/readers who are aware of Clark's assertions that within a month of 9/11 the Pentagon/Rumsfeld was planning to "take out 7 countries beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan and ending with Iran", the complete and baffling omission of Clark's lectures/whistleblowing even? about that plan would cause Readers to doubt the credibility and neutrality not only of Clark's Blp but of the encyclopedia as a whole. And the fact its a Featured article makes the omission even more bizarre. Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- You spend your time here pushing conspiracy theories and Qanon nuttery. I don't know why people have put up with it for so long. Bitter Oil (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Fram, the idea that Bruce Ohr might plausibly be unrelated to US politics is... creative. Guy (help!) 16:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: See above. The bulk of the text you have added to Wikipedia articles have been about American political topics. It doesn't matter in which articles you add such text, you're not allowed to have anything to do with the subject of American politics. It stretches the bounds of credibility that you assert that edits where you directly name and discuss American political figures, such as past and current American presidents, are not related to American politics, but on the off chance that you, in good faith, genuinely believed such edits to be outside the range of your topic ban, every one of the many people who have commented on this situation have now informed you that these indeed are part of your topic ban. You may assert that before this discussion you hadn't realized. You can now longer credibly assert that you still don't understand this. You have been adequately informed, and the expectation is that you either acknowledge that you have been told this information and agree to abide by your topic ban, and do so quickly and unambiguously, or it is quite likely you will be blocked. --Jayron32 16:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Jayron32:, ok, thanks for laying it out so clearly. Before this discussion I did believe that those topics I edited were outside the ban, but now, after this discussion, I do agree to abide by the ban unambiguously. Nocturnalnow (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: See above. The bulk of the text you have added to Wikipedia articles have been about American political topics. It doesn't matter in which articles you add such text, you're not allowed to have anything to do with the subject of American politics. It stretches the bounds of credibility that you assert that edits where you directly name and discuss American political figures, such as past and current American presidents, are not related to American politics, but on the off chance that you, in good faith, genuinely believed such edits to be outside the range of your topic ban, every one of the many people who have commented on this situation have now informed you that these indeed are part of your topic ban. You may assert that before this discussion you hadn't realized. You can now longer credibly assert that you still don't understand this. You have been adequately informed, and the expectation is that you either acknowledge that you have been told this information and agree to abide by your topic ban, and do so quickly and unambiguously, or it is quite likely you will be blocked. --Jayron32 16:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal
Options:
- Nocturnalnow is reminded that topic bans are broadly construed and that testing the limits of such bans is likely to lead to escalating blocks.
- Nocturnalnow is counselled to seek guidance before editing any article where there is doubt as to whether it may fall in scope of the topic ban or not.
- Nocturnalnow may appeal the topic ban in not less than three months.
- Nocturnalnow is blocked for one week for violation of the topic ban.
- Opinions
- 1, 2, 3 above. Guy (help!) 16:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 per my comments in the previous sections,
neutral on 4 pending Nocturnalnow's forthcoming response.--Jayron32 16:44, 15 January 2020 (UTC) - 1, 2, 3 above. They haven't edited any articles since this point was raised here, so there's no immediate disruption - provided that remains the case, I'd be happy for us to hold off on 4, but if they edit again on this subject after this reminder an immediate block would be warranted. GirthSummit (blether) 17:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- 1,3,4 User should also be required to relate WP:NPA to own edits, while relating how civilly presented concerns over personal attacks are not, in fact, personal attacks.-- Deepfriedokra 18:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3. Per his statement above he understands the terms of his ban, so (for now) 4 isn't needed. - DoubleCross (talk) 14:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 and oppose 4 Although I have some difficulty reconciling Nocturnalnow's statement that he believed the topics were outside his ban because he did not directly edit political articles; with his earlier statements where he appeared to be claiming that making an edit which directly mentioned one US president's alleged foreign policy goals, or an edit relating to the desire of someone to prevent another US president becoming president in the first place were somehow unrelated to politics; now that he's said he understands and will abide by the topic ban I'm not sure a short block will serve much purpose. And frankly I'd suggest a minimum of 6 months before an appeal. But I'm also fine just dropping this. Hopefully Nocturnalnow has gotten the message, if now, well it's their funeral. Nil Einne (talk) 16:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 Doug Weller talk 15:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Personal attacks over greenhouse gas article
RE: GenSQuantum (talk · contribs):
Personal attacks:
Warning:
- 02:16, 16 January 2020 [76]
Personal attack:
- 05:17, 16 January 2020 [77]
Warning:
- 05:20, 16 January 2020 [78]
Personal attacks:
- 05:25, 16 January 2020 [79]
- 05:44, 16 January 2020 [80] --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Another personal attack [81] --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm shocked, shocked, to see a climate science denier hurling abuse around all over the place. I'm also going to make a surprised Pikachu face at my discovery that this user is pushing anti-science propaganda with dishonest edit summaries. WP:NOTHERE. Reyk YO! 08:51, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have edited the word used to describe me as (a climate denier) -GenSQuantum — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenSQuantum (talk • contribs) 13:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user now has a DS alert. I think there'd be a low bar to a TBAN if this resumes today. Guy (help!) 09:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, I think a block would be better here as the user has gotton more then one final warning, But lets see if this continues.LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 15:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- LakesideMiners, only 51 edits. Might be WP:NOTHERE, might just be someone who hasn't learned how it works yet. Guy (help!) 16:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- No further edits after posting here.-- Deepfriedokra 06:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Generally pointless TE
Can someone uninvolved please have a look at this, this and this (or indeed the rest of that recent talk history) and kindly suggest an attitude adjustment? There appears to be a pattern of pointless antagonism here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Also this. If someone could apply a quick cluebat to stop this nonsense that'd be great. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- There's a competence issue also, as the edits cited left paragraphs with ungrammatical mixed tense. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, words like "plonker" and "silly" clearly constitute a WP:PERSONAL attack. Even that aside, the user's editing pattern has been generally disruptive across other articles. What I have noticed with Roxy is that he (or she?) consistently engages in edit wars, (often with the help of his friend Guy Macon), refuses to discuss the issue (or any relevant issues, for that matter) when questioned, and instead insults the users with whom he disagrees. I have dealt with this user on more than a couple of occasions, and I must say that his editing significantly hindered real progress being made. If he doesn't show any signs of improvement, I suggest we do something about it - whether it be a 1RR restriction, a block (next time a similar issue inevitably arises), or anything else. O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅? 03:54, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable for you to notice my comment at Roxy's talk then pile on here without mentioning that you have been indefinitely topic banned from creationism after many disputes with Roxy and other opponents of WP:FRINGE ideas (ANI permalink). Johnuniq (talk) 07:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why is that not reasonable? I have had many problems with the user, which is why I want to do something about it. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Also, should I mention my topic ban in every comment that I make? Should I make it part of my signature? I don't really see how it's relevant here, given that the disputes that I had with Roxy that contributed to my topic ban were probably one of more minor disputes that I had with him, and they definitely weren't the first ones that I had with him. By the way, I am a WP:FRINGE opponent (including creationism opponent) as well, as you can see on my user page, so, once again, I don't really see how WP: FRINGE is relevant to the discussion. O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅? 13:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why did I only receive a notification about this discussion two days after it started? Why didn't the OP notify me? -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 08:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable for you to notice my comment at Roxy's talk then pile on here without mentioning that you have been indefinitely topic banned from creationism after many disputes with Roxy and other opponents of WP:FRINGE ideas (ANI permalink). Johnuniq (talk) 07:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
WHEN YOU POSTTO AN/IDON'T FORGETTO NOTIFYBurma-shave --EEng 08:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC) (and Levivich and creffett)
- Note for future readers: the above originally read "WHEN YOU POST / TO AN/I / YOU HAVE TO TELL / THE OTHER GUY," thus the "guy" discussion below. creffett (talk) 23:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
@Thumperward: He was being kind to you. [82][83][84][85][86]. -Pudeo (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal (Banner)
This banner should be adopted to replace the current banner. It's eye wrenching catching and has high nostalgic value.-- Deepfriedokra 10:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC).*AS proposer.-- Deepfriedokra 10:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Humurous alternative (or default) templates would be a fantastic development; apart from UPEs, none of use are getting paid, so lets enjoy more. Britishfinance (talk) 11:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support - more likely to be noticed, read, followed, and remembered. – Levivich 14:20, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - what if the person is not a "guy"? sadly, English stress patterns make this complicated, e.g.
when you post an incident / you have to tell / the defendant.
🌿 SashiRolls t · c 14:27, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- That would be someone like me. It always seems to be men who try to explain to me why it's okay for them to use "guys" to refer to me, somebody who is not a man. We have better terminology, although I admit the rhyme is catchy. -- a they/them | argue | contribs 21:17, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have zero issues being referred to as part of the collective "guys". Support silly banner. Natureium (talk) 22:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Once your case is AN/Ied \ be haste to tell \ the other side. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 23:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- SashiRolls, Alfie, thanks to you both for pointing that out to me, I was going for the rhyme but hadn't considered that I was gendering the message (and I do come from areas where "guy" is colloquially used as a gender-neutral plural). I'll change it to the gender-neutral version I suggested below. creffett (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment WHEN YOU POST / TO AN/I / DON'T FORGET / TO NOTIFY ? Unfortunately loses the part about _who_ you have to notify... creffett (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, it's perfect. Truly, you are the poet laureate of Wikipedia. With luck we will reduce all policies and guidelines to Burma-Shave ads, limericks, haikus or (in the case of MOS and Arbcom cases, respectively) sonnets and epic poems. EEng 18:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support IF "guy" is changed to "person". Or "human", "lifeform", or "earthling" if you want to be quirky. (ETA) I just realized you're trying to rhyme. It didn't click because my brain pronounces "AN/I" as "annie".Schazjmd (talk) 22:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Place a post on AN/I
- Place a post for free
- Place a post on AN/I
- And (andand) you gotta post to notify me signed, Rosguill talk 00:56, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rosguill, I should not have been taking a drink while reading that. (wiping off screen) (and now that song's earworming me)Schazjmd (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is all my fault [87]. I've crated a Frankenstein. EEng 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rosguill, I should not have been taking a drink while reading that. (wiping off screen) (and now that song's earworming me)Schazjmd (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- As Tennnyson would have said it:
Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to notify.
--T*U (talk) 04:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
User:Scope creep Revenge and disruptive editing
After I listed 7 pages created by User:Scope creep at AFD, User:Scope creep posted on my Talk Page here: User talk:Mztourist#Articles to Afd promising WP:REVENGE. Since then and despite having supposedly retired on 14 January: [88] User:Scope creephas now listed 3 pages I created for deletion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michelin Rubber Plantation, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ho Bo Woods and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S&T Motiv. In addition User:Scope creep appears to have targetted 2 pages: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mac-Talla (band) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Newton (academic) created by User:Buidhe who contributed to the deletion discussions on the pages I nominated see for exmple : Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ferdinand Feichtner and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adolf Paschke. Despite claiming to have taken part in over 2000 AFDs: [89], User:Scope creep has not acted in good faith or observed any of Help:My article got nominated for deletion! and instead has pursued revenge and disruptive editing Mztourist (talk) 13:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I've fixed the links for you. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Personally I do not object to the nominations of my articles for deletion. Although it may be the case that scope creep is scouring my contributions for non-notable articles, these were created early in my editing career when I didn't understand notability and actually ought to be deleted. buidhe 13:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Buidhe: This isn't the place, but while it's here i'd say you might have a chanec with WP:NACADEMIC #2, depending on how notable the award from St Andy's is. Just a thought, worth a punt. ——SN54129 15:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sure we all have a few old pages like that, its acting in bad faith on a clearly stated desire for revenge that is unacceptable.Mztourist (talk) 13:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't believe in it and truly think that revenge is terrible, it is bitter and hateful, both which I don't believe it. I did it originally to try and scare the editor into withdrawing the nominations which you didn't do, but is only fair and equitable that I now audit your article. scope_creepTalk 13:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Scope creep: half a mo: ca you clarify what
I did it originally to try and scare the editor into withdrawing the nominations which you didn't do, but is only fair and equitable that I now audit your article
means? It sseems to copperfasten the OP's allegation, perhaps you could clarify? Apologies if I'm misreading you. ——SN54129 15:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is worth pointing out in the initial discussion that the editor stated I would note from looking at your Talk Page that several pages that you have worked on have been declined for lack of notability Comments about Afc Rejection I believe that the editor explicitly targetted me because he believed that I was relative newbie and created a whole bunch of article that had been rejected, thereby believing that I didn't understand what constitutes notability. The editor never discussed the posting of the articles to AFD queue, nor made any attempt to improve the articles, nor made attempts to talk to somebody else about the articles, nor spoke to me about it. It was merely a targetted attack which I consider disruptive and vexatious. He is relatively inexperienced at Afd, only completing 57, whereas I have done more 2000. If he had spent more than 5 minutes discussing any of them with me, he could have posted the whole lot to Afd, we could discussed it and perhaps found a better understanding of what constitutes notability. Instead he targetted me specifically believing I didn't know what I was doing. The Afc messages on my talk page, are NPP articles that were rejected, that were posted into Afc and then queued for a second opinion. The whole lot is disruptive and entirely shabby on his part. scope_creepTalk 15:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm with SN. I'm not aware of a requirement that AfD nominators discuss articles with their creators prior to nominating the article for AfD. Also, these statements are eyebrow-raising: "I think it will need to have a look through your articles." [90] "I'm a really strong believer in revenge. It comes naturally in my family." [91] "If you had left a message and discussed like the rational human being instead of the ratbag that you are, then it would have been fair enough." [92] That last one really should be struck. In this thread, you admit "I did it originally to try and scare the editor into withdrawing the nominations which you didn't do, but is only fair and equitable that I now audit your article", and conclude that "The whole lot is disruptive and entirely shabby on his part." On his part? Are you sure? – Levivich 15:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- This revenge talk is disturbing. Eostrix (talk) 16:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. Frankly, at this stage, I'm not particularly interested in scope_creep's concerns about other editors. They seem to pale in comparison to scope_creep's talk of revenge. And then in this very ANI, they now say they think revenge is terrible. While that's obviously a reassuring thing to hear, very next they appear to acknowledge nominating in bad faith, in an attempt to scare another editor. Frankly I'm leaning to supporting a topic ban of scope_creep from nominating articles or even all the way up to a cban. Nil Einne (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- scope_creep has been indeffed by User:Girth Summit for harassment which is good enough for me. I'd say we're done here Nil Einne (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. Frankly, at this stage, I'm not particularly interested in scope_creep's concerns about other editors. They seem to pale in comparison to scope_creep's talk of revenge. And then in this very ANI, they now say they think revenge is terrible. While that's obviously a reassuring thing to hear, very next they appear to acknowledge nominating in bad faith, in an attempt to scare another editor. Frankly I'm leaning to supporting a topic ban of scope_creep from nominating articles or even all the way up to a cban. Nil Einne (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- This revenge talk is disturbing. Eostrix (talk) 16:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm with SN. I'm not aware of a requirement that AfD nominators discuss articles with their creators prior to nominating the article for AfD. Also, these statements are eyebrow-raising: "I think it will need to have a look through your articles." [90] "I'm a really strong believer in revenge. It comes naturally in my family." [91] "If you had left a message and discussed like the rational human being instead of the ratbag that you are, then it would have been fair enough." [92] That last one really should be struck. In this thread, you admit "I did it originally to try and scare the editor into withdrawing the nominations which you didn't do, but is only fair and equitable that I now audit your article", and conclude that "The whole lot is disruptive and entirely shabby on his part." On his part? Are you sure? – Levivich 15:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Scope creep: half a mo: ca you clarify what
- I've got no opinion at present on the seven nominations that the OP made of User:Scope creep's articles - it does sound a bit odd to nominate so many of one user's articles in quick succession, but perhaps there was a reason for that. What is massively concerning is the obvious (and downright creepy) attempts to intimidate the OP, the undisguised personal attacks, the nonchalant admission that they were trying to
scare the editor into withdrawing the nominations
, and the apparent opinion that the appropriate response to having one's article's nominated to AfD is to scour through the nominator's contributions in an attempt to gain retribution. I've indefinitely blocked Scope creep's account to prevent further disruption. Mztourist - could you explain the circumstances that led you to nominate seven articles by a particular user in quick succession? No accusation of any wrongdoing, I'd just like to understand that situation better. GirthSummit (blether) 16:44, 16 January 2020 (UTC)- Sure, I stumbled on Ferdinand Feichtner last week, read through it and followed various links to other German intelligence agencies and people involved. I identified several bios of German cryptanalysts/signals intelligence people that didn't seem notable and tried to find sources for them but didn't. I then raised the notability issue at: Talk:Ferdinand Feichtner#GNG/Soldier, I wasn't satisfied with the response from scope_creep and decided that the easiest thing was to put that page and 6 others I had identified as lacking notability up for AFD to see what other users' views were.Mztourist (talk) 17:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Frankly, I believe revenge is a dish best served with pinto beans and muffins!. I'm shocked that an long-established user would do such things. CBANning for AfD would not address the root cause, much as I ache to try out the new buttons.-- Deepfriedokra 16:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. I did some work on Mac-Talla (band) today, without any knowledge of this discussion. While the article did need cleanup, it was a very poor nomination, for an unambiguously notable subject. can an uninvolved admin review these nominations, and see which can be (speedily) closed? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Fully endorse the decision to block. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 18:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I went and closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ho Bo Woods, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S&T Motiv, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michelin Rubber Plantation as speedy keeps because they were clearly out-of-process disruptive nominations. I did these as non-admin closes under WP:SKCRIT criterion #2a ("obviously frivoulous or vexatious nominations"). Please let me know if there are any objections to these actions. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, endorse NAC - I agree with your assessment of them as disruptive noms. The articles could use some work, but given the context of the nominations I think SK2a is appropriate here. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I have encountered three of the seven articles nominated for deletion at AfD and then saw scope creep was blocked and found my way here. The three articles I saw were not clear Deletes? In fact, there is an important WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTPAPER to Wikipedia's mission. At least two have BLPs in German WP (which is a much higher bar for BLPs than En-WP). It is unusual for 7 different BLPs to get AfD'ed in one go, and therefore, as a content creator, I can understand the material stress that scope creep felt under. Scope creep's actions post the noms was wrong, however, it is clear that they put a lot of work and effort into these BLPs. If these were junk-articles, I could understand the simultaneous nom, but they seem fine – not hugely notable charachters, however, not clear deletes either? What was the strong connection between these articles that led to their simultaneous nominations? (otherwise, it would look very unfair to Scope creep). Britishfinance (talk) 11:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- This fourth AfD is concerning, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heinz Bonatz. Very short nom rationale for what is a sold Keep for an important historical figure in his area (head of B-Dienst and chronicled on de-WP, and many other databases)? I am a little concerned about what is going on here; perhaps it is all good faith but these are not your typical BLPs with bio entries in the NYT etc. But to editors who understand the sector (and who may not all be arond at AfD), feel like Keeps. I could see how that could have put Scope creep under mental strain. Britishfinance (talk) 11:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW Britishfinance, I agree with you about the mental strain. Having seven articles rapidly nominated for deletion by a single editor would have been exceedingly unpleasant, and SC probably felt that they were being victimised themselves. I for one would have advocated a fair degree of leeway towards a heat-of-the-moment, 'what the fuck are you doing you asshole' sort of response - I've said before that I don't think an isolated breach of civility under stressful situations should necessarily lead to a block. Unfortunately, this reaction went way beyond that - this was a clear and intentional attempt to intimidate another user, with threatening undertones (
I'm a really strong believer in revenge. It comes naturally in my family.
- that's pretty sinister) - we can't sweep that under the carpet. I'd be open to an unblock if SC accepted that their actions were seriously out of line and agreed not to interact with the OP any further. GirthSummit (blether) 16:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)- I think the block is entirely appropriate. At the same time I hope Scope Creep only retires for a little while, contemplating their ways in terms of the above, and comes back to request unblock with profuse apologies and a promise not to do this again. Wikipedia does not need to be so stressful; as in life, settling time, apologies an behaviour changes go a long way towards having people get along.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:29, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Britishfinance I explained the background to my AFD nominations above. You say that none of those pages that you have seen are clear deletes while Heinz Bonatz is a solid keep. We are all entitled to our opinions, obviously I disagree with yours and as you will have seen, different users have expressed differing views whether to keep or delete. Various interesting arguments as to notability have been raised in relation to a number of those pages including whether or not deWP has higher standards than enWP as all of the pages are bios of German cryptologists, in the case of Herbert von Denffer deWP has 3 references, one of which is an English blog, so I'm not sure I agree. In the case of Otfried Deubner his archeological publications which are only mentioned in passing on the page seem to be regarded as the only basis for notability. In the case of Heinz Bonatz his role as head of the 250 man B Dienst and its role in the Battle of the Atlantic is held up as establishing notability. In the case of Ferdinand Feichtner you assert that "many historical figures in WP for whom the only GNG we have are what they wrote about themselves, but we chronicle them as WP:PRESERVE" while I believe that an unverified personal account doesn't satisfy GNG. Surely having these type of discussions is what the AFD process is intended to achieve? More eyes, more thoughts etc. Mztourist (talk) 17:00, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think the block is entirely appropriate. At the same time I hope Scope Creep only retires for a little while, contemplating their ways in terms of the above, and comes back to request unblock with profuse apologies and a promise not to do this again. Wikipedia does not need to be so stressful; as in life, settling time, apologies an behaviour changes go a long way towards having people get along.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:29, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, I agree with your block; Scope creep snaped and their response was too extreme. I sigh when I see two experienced and valuable editors, who have done good work in WP, doing this to each other. I would delete any FA article (or more) to keep Scope creep and Mztourist active and happy in Wikipedia. Mztourist should have taken a bit more care in their AfDs, there was no urgency here, and they should reflect about simultaneourly putting seven different niche AfDs (which always require more expert input at AfD, and where a google search is not sufficient), that were created by a single established editor, when there was no SPAM/PROMO/UPE/COI angle. Most, from what I have seen (and as reflected by the current |votes, and existance of de-WP BLPs), are not clear Deletes.
- WP:NPP lost one of its most important and long-term productive editors last week because suddenly it became important to batch AfD tiny US GEO locations, without any proper Project/RfC discussion on the basis of USGA sites; and because of this, NPP will probably fail, and the SPAM/PROMO/UPE/COI will rise materially. It is like we are "eating ourselves", and we will all be the long-term losers from it. If someone is a crap editor and/or a SPAM/PROMO/UPE/COI editor, then calmly escort them (and their articles) to the door; however, my impression of Scope creep (and of Mztourist), is that they do not fit this category (quite the opposite in fact, and by a long margin). Britishfinance (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW Britishfinance, I agree with you about the mental strain. Having seven articles rapidly nominated for deletion by a single editor would have been exceedingly unpleasant, and SC probably felt that they were being victimised themselves. I for one would have advocated a fair degree of leeway towards a heat-of-the-moment, 'what the fuck are you doing you asshole' sort of response - I've said before that I don't think an isolated breach of civility under stressful situations should necessarily lead to a block. Unfortunately, this reaction went way beyond that - this was a clear and intentional attempt to intimidate another user, with threatening undertones (
- Apology from Scope creep SC has posted the following on their talk page.
I apologise to everybody involved in this. I have really wasted everybody's time, including my own. Looking back, the stress put me into overload and I reacted in a way that I would never react to in normal manner. I would never react like that in manner at work or amongst friends or colleagues and wouldn't expect anybody else to react in that manner towards me. Its entirely outside my normal experience. It's only been a few days and feels like it was last year. I don't think I can come back in the short term certainly. It has completely switched me off and would be unable to start editing. If I did come back, I wouldn't be working in kind of non-mainstream article, particularly of the type that was sent to Afd. I never planned to work on any more of types of those articles anyway except b-dienst which needs some work, but for the most part, what could be discovered was already in and already completed. I was planning to create a couple of templates in the first three months of this year to pull all the articles together. I'm certainly much less attached to the question of deletion than I was before. When you go through this sort of experience, you look back and say, you've done it and you know about and know how approach it without causing any hassle. I don't ever plan to create the kind of article that requires thinking out of what box on constitutes notability. For those articles I took the approach that as Wikipedia was the universal encyclopedic it should have at least some kind of entry on every subject, even if it was obscure, secret or byzantine. That has certainly not worked. They will be mainstream articles and if they put up for nomination, then I don't plan to defend then.
I think it's clear that they regret their actions, but they aren't currently asking for an unblock. For the record, I'd be happy for any admin to unblock if SC was to accept a one-way IBAN with the OP. GirthSummit (blether) 12:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- SC's comments were, as others said, beyond the pale, and a block was likely the right call. However, I do want to also underscore something about XfD norms. If you're unsure what to do with a particular type of article, I would submit this is often not going to be the best approach:
the easiest thing was to put that page and 6 others I had identified as lacking notability up for AFD to see what other users' views were
. Not only were they all by the same person, but you didn't so much as let that person know on their talk page that you had nominated a bunch of their articles for deletion. That would bother anyone. IMO best thing would be to nominate one if you're unsure, and if it's deleted, nominate others (and notify the page creator! -- the only reason proposals to make that a necessary step have failed is because of outlier cases like when the creator just made a redirect or the creator is banned). None of this is to let SC off the hook, of course; I just don't want this to get lost. My only comment on the resolution is that a one-way iban may be problematic if one's articles are being nominated for deletion (or if you're prohibited from talking to someone asking questions about the article on its talk page), so perhaps some sort of exception is in order? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:30, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- Rhododendrites, I agree with everything you've said. I'd be comfortable with the iban being tailored in such a way as to allow SC to engage in any discussions about content they've written, including AfDs or talk pages for those articles, even if (perhaps especially if) the OP is involved in those discussions. GirthSummit (blether) 15:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have to question the sincerity of that apology, coming as it did only 1 day after this: [93], which included: "All that doesn't excuse my behaviour, but MZTourist didn't even make an attempt to find that out. I did try and scare him into withdrawing them, mainly by channelling my family. I certainly do not believe in revenge, it is hateful and imagine it makes you very bitter, which is itself destructive. I must admit I did want MZTourist to feel some the pain that I was feeling, but I felt as though I was being targetted from his comments. He is not exactly the most sanguine character, having had complaints from several editors in the last couple of year." Mztourist (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Mztourist, I can understand you feeling that way, given that you are the target of some negative statements in that first post. However, as an outside observer, I see it differently. The first post was made shortly after SC was blocked - this is a long-term contributor, with a previously clean block log, and they were probably still smarting over the whole affair and continuing to blow off steam. A day is long enough to sleep on it, take time to absorb and accommodate the feedback that uninvolved people have given you, and reassess. As declarations of contrition go, the statement above is pretty impressive - they apologise, accept that the behaviour was unacceptable, and they reflect on what led to it and how they might avoid repeating the mistakes in future. I don't see any reason not to take it as sincere. GirthSummit (blether) 18:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
A participant with a pronounced pro Russian position. Which makes vandal edits replacing and deleting any mention of Ukraine in the preambles of Ukrainian persons making them Russian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.154.30.80 (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the latest edit: [94], changing Kiev from Ukraine to Russian Empire for 1862-1912 is more than reasonable as the Russian Empire was the relevant entity at the time. Ушкуйник even described the subject as "Russian-Ukrainian". Other edits I looked at were similar. 88.154.30.80's assertion does not appear grounded in facts. Eostrix (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @EEng: Unless the joke is about being unable to read Cyrillic, I'm not quite sure how the name is unpronounceable... Moaz786 (talk to me or see what I've been doing) 02:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Anonumus 7
Hello! A block for Anonumus 7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) user overdue. Their Talk page is full warnings for their disruptive editing and they are still not getting it. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- It seems to me that they are editing in good faith.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 10:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Possibly so. Nonetheless, their editing is disruptive. Robby.is.on (talk) 11:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Also, this ANI filing didn't stop them. They have no contributions outside article space. I.e., refuse to discuss, or are incapable of discussing, the plentiful warnings about updating stats and not as-of dates. (Classic example of why we shouldn't be trying to replicate stats anyway) —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:28, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- I blocked them pending their response. Any admin can unblock at any time once they have responded to the concerns and acknowledged they will fix their issues. The refusal to communicate is a major problem, and the block is solely for the refusal to communicate. They can be unblocked as soon as they do so. --Jayron32 12:47, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Also, this ANI filing didn't stop them. They have no contributions outside article space. I.e., refuse to discuss, or are incapable of discussing, the plentiful warnings about updating stats and not as-of dates. (Classic example of why we shouldn't be trying to replicate stats anyway) —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:28, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Possibly so. Nonetheless, their editing is disruptive. Robby.is.on (talk) 11:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
89.200.15.69 / Eurocave
Original heading: "User: 89.200.15.69" ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- 89.200.15.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Personal attacks [[95]], removing closed discussion template at Talk:NikkieTutorials and continued disregard for MOS:GENDERID after recently receiving last warning. cave (talk) 17:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Eurocave, thanks for opening an ANI report; I will now move the other user's complaint from WP:AIV here too.
Please have a look at your user talk page and reconsider one part of your complaint.(done) Thanks ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC) (updated ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC))- Thank you. cave (talk) 17:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- User is referring to a perceived 'personal attack' that only lasted for about one and a half minute before I removed it. There is no evidence that the user read it while it was still on my talkpage. No other edits where made during this one and a half minute.
- I was referring to the militant behavior and not the user themselves. I do not know what the verb is because English is not my native language. I removed it as soon as I realized that it I should not have made that edit. User forgot to link that edit. Anyway, my action does not change what user did. Neither does my action make the users actions less severe.
- User was already in an edit war with someone else when we collided. User was already repeatedly reverting the contents of a project talkpage. Refusing to participate in any conversation even after several requests on the users own talkpage. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- There has been no disregard for MOS:GENDERID by me. When I made my first edit I was not aware of that guideline. User just reverted mine and other peoples edits repeatedly until in one of these reverts the user pointed out the guideline. Had the user used the talkpage (rather than reverting the entire section multiple times, which constitutes vandalism) we would not have been in this situation. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- My reason for redacting Timmy's comment is that it deadnamed Nikkie. This information is sensitive and private and should not be published on Wikipedia, not even on a talk page. There was absolutely no point to including it, just like we shouldn't be including anybody else's poorly sourced medical histories. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was trying to do and you kept reverting it. cave (talk) 23:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- There has been no disregard for MOS:GENDERID by me. When I made my first edit I was not aware of that guideline. User just reverted mine and other peoples edits repeatedly until in one of these reverts the user pointed out the guideline. Had the user used the talkpage (rather than reverting the entire section multiple times, which constitutes vandalism) we would not have been in this situation. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Eurocave, thanks for opening an ANI report; I will now move the other user's complaint from WP:AIV here too.
Eurocave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)Temporary cool down block requested. Eurocave keeps vandalising talk pages. Reverts an entire disucssion on Talk:NikkieTutorials multiple times in a row and then puts it all inside a closed template, so it cannot be read or edited anymore. Eurocave disregards people who try to reach consensus because Eurocave is offended by the discussion. Also vandalises the talk page of this IP adres. Continues after I have requested them to stop on their talkpage multiple times. Judging by their history, Eurocave talks through reverting rather than using a talk page. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Quote:" Restoring talk page notices, even if they should not be removed, is not a listed exception to the three-revert rule."89.200.15.69 (talk) 18:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Eurocave, can you explain why you keep removing discussions and/or closing them down at the talk page in question? I am unclear where MOS:GENDERID has text that says that you should do this, and yet you keep citing it. You're going to need to explain yourself, as it is unclear why you keep doing so. --Jayron32 18:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hello. I was struggling with a couple of users on NikkieTutorials' talk page. User Timmie1606 was active on the Dutch wikipedia, and after he tried to misgender Nikkie there and got a rebuttal that "it's best to follow the English Wikipedia example", he apparently took that as a cue to make an English wikipedia account solely for the purpose of attempting to get us to deadname Nikkie de Jager here. Another (anonymous IP user who insulted me) joined in and I have already given him 3 warnings for personal attacks and continued disruptive edits, as cited above in my complaint about him. I tried closing the discussion because it was not productive. These users just posted Nikkies alleged Deadname on the talk page and kept misgendering her, and didn't suggest any proposals for change that were remotely within Wikipedia's guidelines. In the end oversight ended up closing the discussion, so it turns out it was the correct call to make, however the IP user kept reversing my closure. Now the IP user seems to be currently in the process of Forum shopping as well. Meanwhile all this sensitive information remains on Nikkie's talk page and I don't know what to do about it. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was doing by removing, and then later trying to hide a message that included Nikkie's alleged, poorly sourced birthname. I still maintain that it is in violation of Wikipedia's policy, as it is "contentious material about a living person", it shouldn't be there. cave (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Some of these topics are already under discretionary sanctions. If someone is disruptive on a BLP, warn them via
{{subst:alert|blp}}
. If they're being disruptive about gender-related issues, you can also warn them of Gamergate discretionary sanctions via{{subst:alert|gg}}
. If the disruption continues, report them to arbitration enforcement. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:47, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Some of these topics are already under discretionary sanctions. If someone is disruptive on a BLP, warn them via
- Hello. I was struggling with a couple of users on NikkieTutorials' talk page. User Timmie1606 was active on the Dutch wikipedia, and after he tried to misgender Nikkie there and got a rebuttal that "it's best to follow the English Wikipedia example", he apparently took that as a cue to make an English wikipedia account solely for the purpose of attempting to get us to deadname Nikkie de Jager here. Another (anonymous IP user who insulted me) joined in and I have already given him 3 warnings for personal attacks and continued disruptive edits, as cited above in my complaint about him. I tried closing the discussion because it was not productive. These users just posted Nikkies alleged Deadname on the talk page and kept misgendering her, and didn't suggest any proposals for change that were remotely within Wikipedia's guidelines. In the end oversight ended up closing the discussion, so it turns out it was the correct call to make, however the IP user kept reversing my closure. Now the IP user seems to be currently in the process of Forum shopping as well. Meanwhile all this sensitive information remains on Nikkie's talk page and I don't know what to do about it. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was doing by removing, and then later trying to hide a message that included Nikkie's alleged, poorly sourced birthname. I still maintain that it is in violation of Wikipedia's policy, as it is "contentious material about a living person", it shouldn't be there. cave (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure why the IP wasn't blocked on the spot for this edit, or this subsequent one. Drmies (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, wait. so for stuff like that, I can report right to AIV? And IP seems to be ranged blocked now. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 16:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- LakesideMiners, as far as I'm concerned, yes--this was pretty blatant and I am sure most admins would take it seriously. Yes, that range is now blocked and I'd LOVE to know what lies behind it. Perhaps Favonian can share some relevant information, or transmit the SuperSecretFiles via carrier pigeon. Drmies (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Favonian, I'll be tagging a bunch of accounts shortly. Thanks. Thanks also to Materialscientist. LakesideMiners, we are dealing with a simple troll, a vandal making tons of nonsense edits, and every now and then, I suppose, they want to be taken seriously and troll in a more serious manner. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies The range block and its predecessor have nothing to do with the subject of this discussion. Among the denizens of the range is a person who carries Persian patriotism to absurd heights by, for instance, hijacking the Kingdom of Prussia and the Flag of Hungary. Favonian (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Drmies, something a bit odd, this Special:Contributions/GibberFishing account was made and only respond to a comment I made on the IPs question on the MOS talk page. I forget what made me say the issue seems to be resolved, was resolved(as I said that BEFORE the IP was blocked), but seems a little bit odd. I'm still waking up a bit so I may not be thinking straight, but somthing seems odd. If I forgot anything. let me know. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 18:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
User editing from a U.S. government office, with a long term disruptive agenda
- 155.19.91.37 (talk · contribs)
WP:NOTHERE, per [96]; [97]; [98]; [99]; [100]; [101]; [102]; [103]; [104]; [105]; [106]; [107] and associated edits to Nathan Phillips (activist). Primarily disruptive, trolling and using Wikipedia as a personal soapbox. Perhaps the Defense Department should know if this is the activity of one of its employees. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- If we do block them, WP:SIP probably needs to be followed. The DOD is not specifically listed there, but I would be cautious and notify WMF as described there. --Jayron32 19:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- As an aside, only the first two ranges listed for the U.S. House and the range for the U.S. Senate are tagged with class mw-tag-congressedits on contrib lists. The other ranges listed at WP:SIP have markup no different than any other IP address. Other than having a browser user script tag them (is there one?), where should I go to suggest expanding the tagging to these other ranges? I'd like to be able to style these so I notice them in histories/contribs. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
White privilege
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- White privilege (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Keith Johnston (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
White privilege is, needless to say, a contentious article. For more than two years now, Keith Johnston has been unsuccessfully pushing to reshape the article to portray white privilege as "just a theory", as it were, with assumptions of bad faith forum shopping, promotion of unreliable sources (also with forum shopping) and WP:CANVASSing (see the warning from Doug Weller on his talk page: [108]).
The article is subject to endless circular argument, and Keith Johnston is a significant contributor to that. He has 863 edits of which 270 are to the talk page of white privilege. He's raised it at NPOVN, RSN, DRN, and for the last year he's done basically nothing else on Wikipedia other than argue at that talk page.
Today he raised yet another semi-rhetorical question which turns out to be based on a complete misrepresentation of sources and accuses Wikipedia of being racist. Per WP:SPS and WP:TE I think he should be topic banned from that article, to allow some more recently arrived good faith editors to hash out some compromises without distraction. Guy (help!) 19:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Id like to take this opportunity to respond (forgive me if this is not in the right section):
- I do believe in good faith that the white privilege article violates NPOV - other editors agree - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_80
- I accept the warning with regard to canvassing and will commit to not repeating this error.
- I have not accused wikipedia of being racist and do not believe this to be the case.
- It concerns me that three of the admins listed here are INVOLVED as this may prejudice this discussion.
- My negative reaction to being placed under sanctions is in the context of that sanctioning editor being INVOLVED, which I initially thought was violation of policy.
- I only edit those pages where I feel I am subject matter competent. I edit the white privilege page because I have made myself subject matter competent by educating myself on the topic.
- I do not edit war, and I raise issues on the talk page in the first instance. Keith Johnston (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keith Johnston, nobody doubts that you believe in good faith that the article is biased. The issue is your relentless pursuit of attempts to change it despite numerous RfCs and other debates that go against you, combined with the lack of any other meaningful contributions to the project. Under 900 edits in 13 years, more than a third of them to this one article, with as close to zero consensus as makes no odds. You won't drop the stick so I guess we have to just take it away from you. Guy (help!) 01:17, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to support this. Guy's right, the talk page and archives are full of circular arguments. He posted huge walls of text in an earlier RfC- do take a look and we're going around again it seems. Ordinary editors (or busy ones who aren't focussed on just one article) just can't keep up with this approach. Doug Weller talk 19:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- I support this and agree with Guy and Doug Weller. Its been a constant attempt to introduce WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE, trying to create WP:FALSEBALANCE, and using sources that do no meet WP:RS. [109]. // Timothy::talk 20:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite topic ban from White privilege and related pages broadly construed. Too much bludgeoning for too long. Bishonen | talk 21:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC).
- Yes, this editor has been beating the same dead horse for too long, wasting the community's time and energy. It's time to ban him from the topic of white privilege. Binksternet (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support a tban from White privilege, broadly construed. I looked through their comments on that talk page. This editor's behavior wouldn't be acceptable anywhere, but is especially bad given the fraught nature of the article. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:38, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support a tban from the subject of white privilege, including the article White privilege and its talk page, as well as discussions of the subject in other articles or other name spaces. It would be unfortunate if a tban from the article/talk page in question still allowed them to do their fringe POV pushing elsewhere. --bonadea contributions talk 22:24, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support - 1 year tban, but I think indef is a bit much considering one block in 12 years of editing. (and yes I'm aware that indev ≠ forever). — Ched (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I'm WP:INVOLVED so I won't !vote, but I wish to second JgZ/Guy's comments. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite ban from the topic of white privilege, broadly construed. Too much argument over settled issues. Johnuniq (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Suppport an indefinite, broadly-construed TB from white privilege. A relatively-clean block log has little to do with POV-pushing. Miniapolis 23:26, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite, topic ban from anything to do with "white privilege" broadly construed. This type of disruptive behavior is exactly what topic bans were made for, and I would suggest enforcing this (at least on the page White privilege itself) with a partial block. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 23:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Did you really think you would change any minds editing that article? If you would have just read the intro you would know that critics are simply right-wing and misunderstand the concept. Posting content disputes at WP:DRN is forum shopping of course. Questioning the reliability of Hypatia promotes that horrid Wall Street Journal. Two years??! I have to say if you were trying to move the article toward neutrality you made absolutely zero headway.—eric 00:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - if everything that is/has been published about white privilege is true and accurate, and the comments in this thread are true to form, how can we eliminate the bias that is inherent at birth by those editors who are white since they are obviously born into a privileged status? Do we dismiss or discount their iVotes because they were born into the scorn of white privilege? Their iVotes cannot possibly be unbiased, right? Oh, and if we decide that only those editors of different racial backgrounds other than white are the only credible participants free of bias, have we truly eliminated "privilege" or are we inviting a different kind of privilege via our biases against whites? Hopefully, someone can explain this to me because I am thoroughly confused. Atsme Talk 📧 03:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I can't tell if you're being melodramatic (seems so), but surely you realize nothing about white privilege suggests we do not allow White folks to !vote on Wikipedia. I'm happy to talk about how the concept is discussed in sociology with folks asking in good faith, but how's this related to Keith? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- What... Is this? I’m assuming this is some sort of personal meta-commentary having to do with the concept of white privilege [in general], as no one anywhere on this project has ever seriously suggested this. Disruptive one-off editors aside. This is kind of a strange comment. I’m not quite sure what to make of this. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 07:08, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I just happened to look at this dispute because I'm following another dispute listed on this page. Skimming through the controversy I see a conflict of paradigms. The problem is subtle, and it is a fundamental threat to Wikipedia. It's about what we consider to be "reliable sources". When the very division between what is "reliable" and other sources is the issue in question, then the distinction between "reliable" and "unreliable" breaks down. Ya, there's this argument about "false equivalence" but there's no firm basis for calling it "false." As various topics become increasingly politicized, Wikipedia must figure out how to deal with the problem. The solution proposed here about driving out heretics seems deficient. For the sake of Wikipedia, it seems that all of those folks chiming in to say "support" should instead be directing their attention to how to throw this editor a bone to reflect alternative points of view. By saying this I am not denying or affirming that the editor in question is not engaging in the behaviors in question. I am saying that Wikipedia is engaging in actions that are causing this behavior. Teishin (talk) 04:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support a topic ban from White privilege and all closely related topics such as racism, race relations, whiteness, white people, race and intelligence, and anything else related. We do not need chronic axe grinders editing against consensus in this broad topic area. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:26, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support I very much want to see conservative editors here, but when I see someone using this article as you did here, I don't see an editor operating in good faith. I see someone who is trying to force other editors to read only-tangentially-related texts in order to be able to refute them. This is not good faith. --valereee (talk) 05:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support per the comments above. The behaviour is clearly disruptive, and I'd go as far as Cullen's proposal as well. SportingFlyer T·C 05:20, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support proposal. There’s only so much time and good faith editors can expend on a problematic fellow editor. This has obviously become a time sink, and an IDHT issue. If the editor mends their ways, and can demonstrate an understanding and respect for consensus elsewhere, they can appeal. For now, I don’t see the benefit of a time-limited topic ban. So an indefinite tban seems like the proper remedy. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 07:16, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - I am involved, so I will abstain from !voting. However, I implore experienced editors to step in on Talk:White privilege and help put this issue to rest. Fundamentally, we are dealing with a mix of individuals who either A) believe that social science isn't "real" science, and therefore scientific journals on this topic are no more important than blatantly biased political editorials; and B) individuals who want to downplay race issues in general to support their own racial beliefs. The latter we've seen on Wikipedia for years and can deal with, but the former are pushing a viewpoint that I am concerned will undermine all our articles on social science & psychology topics. This Talk page is a microcosm for how some folks in STEM fields treat every other topic as "lesser" and that can lead to degrading the quality of our articles. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support indefinite topic ban from articles related to white privilege, broadly construed. --qedk (t 桜 c) 21:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment (Semi-involved) Looked out the window and it's snowing. Closing this would save some time. O3000 (talk) 01:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Forewarned, this is a silly dispute, but I am starting to go a little crazy. Timeshifter (talk · contribs) is reverting my edits organizing talk pages based on the informational page WP:TALKORDER, specifically placing {{Annual readership}} at the very top of the talk page, even above {{Talk header}}. See here and here, among others. Discussion occurred here and to some respect here. Timeshifter's primary reasoning comes across as "I like it at the top of the page" and WP:TALKORDER is just an info page, which for some reason they think doesn't mean there was consensus formed to support that specific order. Regarding WP:TALKORDER, it is important to note I added {{Annual readership}} to the list yesterday (diff) based on comments from the talk page and the natural grouping of template types on WP:TALKORDER. At this point, I just want some consensus formed so that neither of us fall prey to WP:3RR and we have a clear path forward. I don't really intend to go out hunting for talk pages to change, but I also don't want to be constantly reverted every time I fix a talk page per WP:TALKORDER, as I would consider that disruptive. Thanks, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:38, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- It might not be a good idea to fiddle with talk pages that you are not otherwise interested in. I guess imposing rules from an arbitrary information page (WP:Talk page layout) might be ok in general, but when resistance from the locals is encountered, pursuing the dream of complete uniformity is not helpful. I suggest moving on and ignoring pages like Talk:List of countries by wealth per adult. Johnuniq (talk) 23:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Johnuniq, although I appreciate the advice about staying away from certain articles, what you're basically saying is that people who edit certain articles can own their associated talk pages, which is patently incorrect. I also think it is a mis-characterization of what is going on, as I am not going around looking for offending talk pages, I am only editing ones I come across. What I don't want is certain editors following my changes, which are based on consensus (WP:TALKORDER), and reverting me. It is disruptive and will ultimately lead to greater problems. I also don't appreciate the exaggeration of
pursuing the dream of complete uniformity is not helpful
, as I don't think it very accurate or helpful as I have only edited like three talk pages accordingly. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:19, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- This is less about Ownership and more about picking your battles. Sure, the changes you make are technically supported by consensus, but they also have little to no actual impact on the usibility or content of the talkpage. I would just stop making these edits unless you're also contributing to the discussion on the talk page, and even then I probably still wouldn't. This didn't need to come to ANI. -- a they/them | argue | contribs 16:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Awesome. I get bullied into having to accept my consensus-based edits getting reverted because I should just get over it. As always, ANI shines as a beacon of helpfulness. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:11, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is less about Ownership and more about picking your battles. Sure, the changes you make are technically supported by consensus, but they also have little to no actual impact on the usibility or content of the talkpage. I would just stop making these edits unless you're also contributing to the discussion on the talk page, and even then I probably still wouldn't. This didn't need to come to ANI. -- a they/them | argue | contribs 16:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Johnuniq, although I appreciate the advice about staying away from certain articles, what you're basically saying is that people who edit certain articles can own their associated talk pages, which is patently incorrect. I also think it is a mis-characterization of what is going on, as I am not going around looking for offending talk pages, I am only editing ones I come across. What I don't want is certain editors following my changes, which are based on consensus (WP:TALKORDER), and reverting me. It is disruptive and will ultimately lead to greater problems. I also don't appreciate the exaggeration of
The person, or persons, keen to edit Shamsheer Vayalil
I am one of several editors who'd never heard of the name Shamsheer Vayalil until begged to help in countering this or that claimed injustice in its editing. (For the plea I received, see User talk:Hoary#Help.) The article is the obsession of a person, with or without his brother, who uses Bharti Airtel IP addresses that geolocate to Patna, Bihar, and also of User:Ankitroy1997, who has implausibly presented himself as a different person. These pleas for assistance, accusations of unfairness, etc, have gone on for some time and have been very tiresome; but they have hardly been actionable. Recently, however, this person has become more agitated, and offensive (example).
Although I don't consider myself involved (other than as a bemused/despairing onlooker and occasional voice of what I think is reason), others may disagree. And so I turn this matter over to one or more other admins. Do look through Talk:Shamsheer Vayalil and User talk:AlanM1. -- Hoary (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks to Hoary for filing this. Note that the article's talk page has an archive, too, where they've been beating the same minutiae to death since June. The relevant IP addresses are primarily 223.230.128.0/18, though there is some involvement from
106.207.32.0/18106.207.32.0/19. The 223 range has primarily only one other editor in it (contributing to Indian politics), so a block there might be reasonable. The 106 has a lot more. I'd also suggest a CU, given the overlap between Ankitroy1997 and the IP (careful examination of their edits makes it clear that they are probably either the same person or co-ordinate with each other off-wiki, pretending to be strangers here). Every time an editor gets tired of them, they move on to drag another into this time sink (as recently as today), conveniently not mentioning the wreckage left behind on the talk page in the hopes that the user won't look and they'll just get what they want. I even tried compromising on something that is a close call, and it didn't help. I've asked them to stay off my user and talk pages after today's attacks. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
::Not interested in biased wikipedia. I have seen all the rules and regulations which are only for Shamsheer Vayalil article and not for others. I don't want to contribute anything here.
Before leaving I'll point out some of your statement:
Eagleash: His one of the kind statement: Some of the articles are only perfect on wikipedia. Which are these "some"? Are they Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Jimmy Wales?
AlanM1: His statement: Removing degrees from bio infobox is not correct because infobox without degrees is incorrect. For which article it's incorrect? Is that Jimmy Wales article or Mark Zuckerberg article?
So, I don't want to contribute to that place where there is biased nature. Keep your wikipedia with you. Ankitroy1997 (talk) 05:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Neither of those are quotes or even correct interpretations of our comments, nor is there any rational reason we would have a bias against a respected, successful doctor and wealthy businessman or Indians in general (witness the amount of work I do fixing Indian subject articles while you're picking at nits). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 06:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
AlanM1 Please don't show baby tantrums. I have read your every explanation or reason which you gave after reverting my edits which shows that you show biased nature. Degrees should not be removed from Jimmy Wales article but it can be removed from Shamsheer Vayalil article. Carefully read your reason which you gave after reverting my edit in Jimmy Wales article. I'll definitely leave wikipedia because it's the place where anyone can learn how to become biased. Ankitroy1997 (talk) 07:27, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- @Ankitroy1997: I did not remove degrees from the article. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 13:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you to all editors who showed a lesson in WP:Civility. These are the
99100 IP addresses I collected until now, after I was similarly contacted on my talk page. My match was with User:Royankitkumar, but I see that user is blocked too now. Thank you for the intervention. Wakari07 (talk) 23:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- Wakari07, we must be talking about different people. I haven't sampled any of your collected IP addresses, but are you saying that they appear to be block evasions by User:Royankitkumar? I'm new to this article Shamsheer Vayalil and that's probably why Royankitkumar is a new name to me. I have looked at half a dozen of Royankitkumar's edits. Every one was simple vandalism. The edits are utterly unlike the edits of the IPs I had/have in mind, or those of User:Ankitroy1997. The latter edits aim to present the biographee in the best possible light. (This aim may be honourable; it's the demands, accusations and miscellaneous childishness that are problematic.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Hoary: There was a gap in time of almost a year, and then a mis-formatted unblock request in November 2019 that may explain this. I've also corrected the 106 range above for the record (I goofed the subnet). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ankitroy1997 has been confirmed by CheckUser as a sock puppet of Royankitkumar. I'm striking through their edits. Doug Weller talk 15:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, there were two comments above by Ankitroy1997; you struck through one and I have now struck through the other. -- Hoary (talk) 23:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is all very odd. If Ankitroy1997 is a sock of blocked Royankitkumar, then of course this is very wrong of Royankitkumar, whose activities should be limited to appealing for the end of his block. Yet when Royankitkumar attempted to do just that, he messed up his own attempt. And we know that he did this, thanks to mention above of "a mis-formatted unblock request". Of course what he really ought to do is carefully reread the instructions and make a new attempt; but we all know from experience that plenty of people can't/won't do this. Anyway, I've resuscitated his request. This says in part: Few months earlier I was new to wikipedia I didn't know that how it works,in that duration of time I made various mistakes which lead to vandalism but my intention was not to vandalise wikipedia. If vandalizing truly wasn't the intention, then I diagnose utter incompetence. However, CU says that Ankitroy1997 and Royankitkumar are the same; and if for a moment I put aside other problems (petulance, time-wasting, block evasion....), I have to concede that Ankitroy1997 is neither a vandal nor grossly incompetent. -- Hoary (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yamla has already declined the appeal, and I certainly have no objection to that. -- Hoary (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ankitroy1997 has been confirmed by CheckUser as a sock puppet of Royankitkumar. I'm striking through their edits. Doug Weller talk 15:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Hoary: There was a gap in time of almost a year, and then a mis-formatted unblock request in November 2019 that may explain this. I've also corrected the 106 range above for the record (I goofed the subnet). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Wakari07, we must be talking about different people. I haven't sampled any of your collected IP addresses, but are you saying that they appear to be block evasions by User:Royankitkumar? I'm new to this article Shamsheer Vayalil and that's probably why Royankitkumar is a new name to me. I have looked at half a dozen of Royankitkumar's edits. Every one was simple vandalism. The edits are utterly unlike the edits of the IPs I had/have in mind, or those of User:Ankitroy1997. The latter edits aim to present the biographee in the best possible light. (This aim may be honourable; it's the demands, accusations and miscellaneous childishness that are problematic.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
79.33.121.131
79.33.121.131 (talk · contribs) Can an admin please redact the edit summary from the first edit made by IP 79.33.121.131 per WP:CRD#2. Pkbwcgs (talk) 12:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for reporting, Pkbwcgs, but I really don't think it matters. Another admin may feel differently. Bishonen | talk 14:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC).
- That's "ordinary" incivility. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Pkbwcgs: and others, just for future reference, this is WP:LTA/SBT. They've been over-excited recently. Please have a read. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
User:Lord Belburyisdead
Socks confirmed and blocked. (non-admin closure) --qedk (t 桜 c) 16:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
WP:ATTACKNAME directed at me.
- Lord Belburyisdead (talk · contribs)
From the East London article subjects, this is presumably a new sockpuppet of User:Hopeful2014, reacting to the report I filed yesterday at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Hopeful2014. --Lord Belbury (talk) 14:28, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I would add this to the suspected sockpuppets on the SPI. Regardless, the name is highly inappropriate and should be reported to WP:UAA, if not already blocked by reporting this here. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:37, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An IP with RGW concerns
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 151.229.26.18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- User talk:151.229.26.18#Your edits at several pages
This IP has been on a campaign to scrub the phrase "convicted pedophile" from Wikipedia this evening, instead opting for "child sex offender". Content issue aside, based on the section on their talk page, there seems to be objection to this and a desire for a wider consensus at the very least. Nevertheless, my attempt to roll these changes back has been met with continued reversion. Thus, I'm starting this to see if the IP will slow down, let the changes be undone, and wait for that consensus before continuing. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. I still say an IP talk page is not an appropriate place for an ongoing discussion, especially this type. Who knows who'll get this IP next. - FlightTime (open channel) 04:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that escalated quickly! Elizium23 (talk) 04:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Absurd. The complainant is determined to have Wikipedia swamped by the unequivocally incorrect terminology "convicted paedophile" (i.e. an individual convicted of a psychiatric disorder), rather than convicted "child sex offender", which is used by the British government.[110][111] This is an encyclopaedia, rather than a tabloid, right?
Other users have supported my cause in this issue,[112][113][114] but we now have a case of WP:WIN. Lowly IP must be wrong even though he's right, I guess. 151.229.26.18 (talk) 04:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- 151.x, please remove the chip from your shoulder and allow a consensus to develop. There is much to be said for your suggested change, but mass changes generally aren't a good way to go until most people agree with you. It is conceivable that there's a better way to approach the issue that either satisfies everybody, or is at least better than your proposed terminology. Or maybe not. Please be patient. Acroterion (talk) 04:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The US government uses 'my' terminology as well.[115] Are we seriously going to pretend that an encyclopaedia reporting convictions on the grounds of a psychiatric disorder, rather than on crime, isn't utterly, horrifically incorrect? 151.229.26.18 (talk) 04:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is not the venue to discuss a content dispute. Might I suggest Talk:Child sexual abuse? Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Elizium23 or WP:DR? tLoM (The Lord of Math) (Message; contribs) 04:59, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- As I am involved in this discussion, I believe that the IP is right. But as Acroterion suggested, I believe mass changes shouldn't be made until nearly everyone is convinced. It needs to be a vast majority for these controversial changes, not just a majority. Wikipedia is not a vote anyway. tLoM (The Lord of Math) (Message; contribs) 04:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is not the venue to discuss a content dispute. Might I suggest Talk:Child sexual abuse? Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The US government uses 'my' terminology as well.[115] Are we seriously going to pretend that an encyclopaedia reporting convictions on the grounds of a psychiatric disorder, rather than on crime, isn't utterly, horrifically incorrect? 151.229.26.18 (talk) 04:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I note without other comment that IP uses non-American, probably British, spelling. Narky Blert (talk) 05:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Elainasla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Hello, I think this is the appropriate place to post this, but I apologise if I'm mistaken. This user continually goes against several guidelines: they make many edits to articles in quick succession clogging up article histories, mark all their edits m when many clearly aren't, and extremely rarely provide edit summaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Elainasla
An example of all three of these would be their 12 edits to Medical Police in the space of 15 minutes on 11 Jan.
They also rarely engage with people who have posted about such issues on their talk page, including me, as evidenced here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#January_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#February_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#February_2019_2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#'Show_preview'_button
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#Edit_summaries
- 115.70.7.33 (talk) 06:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Their talk page is disturbing. At the least I'd suggest a ban might be appropriate to stop them from uploading non-free images. And the marking edits as minor despite warnings is unacceptable. Doug Weller talk 08:41, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user appears to have undertaken 5 reverts on 14 January on page: Medical Police -- Sirfurboy (talk) 10:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I was involved in some of their revert activity on that page, of which I'm the creator. They falsely claimed the preferred upload format for images was PNG (it's JPEG) and edit warred with me over the cover image. They are fairly disruptive, in my experience. Timdorr (talk) 21:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely for long-time disruptive editing and lack of communication. Any admin is encouraged to unblock if the user responds to the block and undertakes a) to stop uploading non-free images and b) to respond to posts on their talkpage from now on. Bishonen | talk 21:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC).
User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have a problem with this bot. The bot’s description says that it is used to make routine and tedious edits that would be difficult for a person to take the time to do. However, when I edited content on a Wikipedia page for Tereq Salahi, when the page even has a alert saying that the neutrality of the page is questioned), the bot automatically removed it within a few seconds despite it not being something of the nature of extremely tedious editing we would expect a bit to do (like verifying a date or correct punctuation).
The bot left a message on my page saying it reverted the edit but did not provide an explanation as to why. Although in the edit summary it claimed that my post was vandalism. It wouldn’t be appropriate to classify my content as vandalism because my content is completely in line with the undisputed Wikipedia article covering the 2009 breach that this person was involved in.
I’m suspicious that this bot is actually working on behalf of the subject of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 07:32, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Simult2018: Your edit utilized loaded words and was very unencyclopedically negative in nature. ClueBot NG specializes in undoing things it deems to be vandalism (we have other bots that do things like what you are thinking about) - it is not malfunctioning. Although you may not have intended to vandalize, the bot decided that your edit had several characteristics of vandalism, and reverted you. Although I will not say much more, I can assure you that ClueBot is not a paid editor for Mr. Salahi. -- a lad insane (Channel 2) 07:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed, @Simult2018:, that was hardly WP:NPOV. The bot is functionng to keep Wikipedia neutral. Especially on a living person-- Deepfriedokra 07:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Now on the other hand, this looks like conflated, inflated, and overrated WP:ARTSPAM, if anyone not as deletionist as I could look at it.-- Deepfriedokra 07:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Reply: My edit was not unencyclopedic. It was in line with the content on the Wikipedia article describing the breach that this person was involved in. It wasn’t loaded. It wasn’t particularly negative although it was factual. According to Wikipedia, this person was involved in the security breach. Whether that was good or bad was not something I alluded to. Only to mention they were involved. If there truly was a problem, why not indicate how to make the correct content fall within Wikipedia guidelines rather than just throwing stones? With certainty, what is there currently is not correct.
Also, you never spoke to the fact that this bot claims to do routine tedious edits. Deciding that something is “loaded” or “negative e” is not a routine edit.viewer. I never said that it was bad that they were involved in the breach. It’s 100% factual and not negative. Do we need to go to the 2009 page covering the breach and remove the facts posted there?
I suspect both of the people that posted these replies are actually involved with the bot. Why does this bot describe itself is making routine edits when it does much more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 07:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note to those unaware of the history here: Probably more than half the edits to Tareq Salahi are by whichever paid-editing firm he happens to be hiring to whitewash it at any given time, and much of the remainder constitutes of his opponents inserting potential libel. Because one of the people who used to regularly point this out publicly that this page is a BLP trainwreck was some guy called "Jimmy Wales", it's not unusual for people wanting to practice their POV-pushing-detection-skills to head straight for this page.
- Simult2018, I appreciate you're frustrated, but you're starting to throw around ridiculous accusations. I strongly recommend familiarising yourself with this core and non-negotiable Wikipedia policy before you go any further. ‑ Iridescent 08:00, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict)::Oh dear. Do please read and WP:aspersions and WP:AGF. I now have my own suspicions, but it's poor form for an admin to abandon AGF at this point, so I will bite my tongue. Never heard of the subject of the article before, and have no interest in them at all. There are over 5,000,000 articles on Wikipedia. What are the odds? And I hope you do not continue to jump to unwarranted conclusions whenever anyone contradicts you or offers an alternative to your viewpoint. -- Deepfriedokra 08:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Iridescent:. Any hope of sending this dumpster fire to WP:AfD. It s a pit.08:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)-- Deepfriedokra
- It's been tried and the WP:ARS-holes all came out of the woodwork to derail it. That was a decade ago and it might be worth trying again. ‑ Iridescent 08:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- GAd. And Gah. I don't AfD anymore. Had forgotten about them. heads up. Simult2018 is seeking answers elsewhere.-- Deepfriedokra 08:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's been tried and the WP:ARS-holes all came out of the woodwork to derail it. That was a decade ago and it might be worth trying again. ‑ Iridescent 08:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Iridescent:. Any hope of sending this dumpster fire to WP:AfD. It s a pit.08:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)-- Deepfriedokra
- The original post is obviously misguided but another point about the edit in question is that is marked minor but introduced text ("infiltrating a White House state dinner as an uninvited guest") that is most definitely not minor. Johnuniq (talk) 09:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Reply: Folks I propose that perhaps some of the things I have said since the deletion of my edit were not all correct. We will never know. It’s not unreasonable to think that pr companies may make bots. However, I think much my edit was correct, was not libelous but factual (it was the same facts as in the page covering the incident), and corrected an obvious distortion in the article. I agree with the comments that the page of this user likely should be deleted. I do t think the user is a public figure enough so as to warrant a page, especially when it seems to have been written by him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 09:29, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't entirely understand what you mean by "we will never know" but to be clear, the bot and its operators are very well known here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here has even met one of the operators in person. There is absolutely no question that it is not written by companies for white-washing, nor that it serves a very useful purpose. This is not a case of "we will never know". It's not perfect of course, but frankly I agree with others that you case does not illustrate an example of where it made a mistake. And to be clear, whatever else, it was completely inappropriate for you to mark your edit as minor. Please do not misuse the minor tag again. Nil Einne (talk) 10:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
AfD canvassing
This article was created by the inventor of the term. It has three Keep !votes: one is his, the other two are people he canvassed off-wiki, neither of whom has previously contributed to Wikipedia. Since I don't do much in this area I don't know what our current approach is to canvassed AfDs, whether we protect at some level or just tag them with the canvassing notice of joy. Can anyone advise please? Guy (help!) 09:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I added "notvote".-- Deepfriedokra 09:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra, that was the one I was looking for, thanks. Guy (help!) 10:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive editor - Kye233
D'okra to the rescue. (non-admin closure) --qedk (t 桜 c) 12:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We've got a disruptive editor whose account, created only yesterday on 18 January, was purely created to use Wikipedia as a platform to promote a petition to save a television programme. The editor has been given plenty of warnings and had their edits reverted, but I think the time has come for an admin to take action here. Here's a small list of what they have done, against WP:NOTSOAPBOX:
GUtt01 (talk) 10:33, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Wira rhea
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Wira rhea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This boy has done multiple harassment and name-calling on IP vandals such in User talk:120.188.92.81 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog), Special:Diff/932807723 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog as well), User talk:58.8.64.151 and User talk:58.11.16.46 (calling the editor "bangsat"; bastard), User talk:61.5.115.130 (calling the editor the "F" word in F-U), and User talk:61.5.115.130 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog as well). Finally answering my warnings here, he said in Balinese about "go kill yourself". There are many more in his contributions on user talk pages. Flix11 (talk) 16:13, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Flix11: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. You may use
{{subst:ANI-notice}}--~~~~
to do so." —[AlanM1(talk)]— 16:20, 19 January 2020 (UTC)- Flix11, you have to notify someone when you report them here - there's a template you can put on their talk page at the top of this page. I've done it for you.
- Flix11 is one of my CVUA students, and so I'm going to leave this for another admin to deal with. However, in my view it seems clear that Wira rhea is out of line here, both in their comments to people they are reverting, and in their response to Flix's warnings. GirthSummit (blether) 16:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Girth Summit: Flix11 should not call another editor "boy". Also, I can't verify what Flix11 says because I cannot find an online Balinese translator.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bbb23, true - 'boy' isn't a good way to address/describe someone, I'd overlooked that. Try some of the edit summaries and additional text after their templated warnings with Indonesian. I can't translate the passage in question, but I'm prepared to believe Flix given the stuff they're putting on vandals' talk pages. GirthSummit (blether) 16:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- If I am going to block a user for personal attacks, I would not take the word of the accuser. That would be grossly unfair to the accused. Google screws up the translation (I tried with the "go kill yourself" language), I assume because Balinese (a dialect of Indonesian?) is sufficiently different from Indonesian to make the translation too difficult to do properly.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bbb23, true - 'boy' isn't a good way to address/describe someone, I'd overlooked that. Try some of the edit summaries and additional text after their templated warnings with Indonesian. I can't translate the passage in question, but I'm prepared to believe Flix given the stuff they're putting on vandals' talk pages. GirthSummit (blether) 16:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Girth Summit: Flix11 should not call another editor "boy". Also, I can't verify what Flix11 says because I cannot find an online Balinese translator.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (Sorry to add to this after it's been closed.) Bbb23 Google Translate indicates that the Indonesian word for 'bitch' crops up regularly in their warnings to vandals, and as Jamie says, FU is pretty clear. However, I wasn't suggesting a block, I think that a warning for abusing user warning templates, and perhaps reading through WP:DENY, would have been sufficient. Wira rhea - please do not insult vandals when you revert and template them, it is not helpful. GirthSummit (blether) 16:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- On further consideration, I'm going to drop the block and replacing with a final warning. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) Thought it might be helpful to point out that while a number of those may be Balinese, I'm pretty sure "Eh Anjing, sibuk kali tanganmu ya bangsat" is either Indonesian or Indonesian slang. Also the Google or Bing translation of that is IMO not far off given my understanding of that sentence due to the similarity to Malay. BTW while the literal translation of en:wiktionary:anjing may be 'dog', in Malay and from what I can tell Indonesian, it's also an insult in a sense that the translation probably doesn't convey [120] [121] [122] [123] . Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indonesia is a majority Muslim country. In some schools of Islam, dogs are haram; so that calling someone a dog can be a grievous insult. (I tailor my insults to the circumstances, but there are limits. I would never call anyone Jewish or Muslim a pig, for obvious reasons. 'Anjing' in the present context could be analogous to that.) Narky Blert (talk) 22:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry to add this after closed. Okay, I'm sorry for the way I'm behaving. I'll try to control my temper next time. And for Flix11, I never said "go kill yourself". "Ape sih ci, oyongang liman ci e. De ajum iban ci dini" means "What are you, keep your hand to yourself. Don't be arrogant here" or in Indonesia "Apa sih kamu, diemin tanganmu. Jangan sombong kamu di sini". I'm not try to defend myself here. I'm crossing the line when I said bad words or dogs word, but I never said go kill yourself. But then again I'm apologize for that. And calling me "boy" considering you one-year younger than me, has the same degree as Bachelor of Computing, and once supported Juventus. Maybe we can meet sometime when I go awaydays to Persebaya or you go away to Bali United. Girth Summit thanks for the warning. I'll not add anything when I revert a vandalism. Wira rhea (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indonesia is a majority Muslim country. In some schools of Islam, dogs are haram; so that calling someone a dog can be a grievous insult. (I tailor my insults to the circumstances, but there are limits. I would never call anyone Jewish or Muslim a pig, for obvious reasons. 'Anjing' in the present context could be analogous to that.) Narky Blert (talk) 22:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (Sorry to add to this after it's been closed.) Bbb23 Google Translate indicates that the Indonesian word for 'bitch' crops up regularly in their warnings to vandals, and as Jamie says, FU is pretty clear. However, I wasn't suggesting a block, I think that a warning for abusing user warning templates, and perhaps reading through WP:DENY, would have been sufficient. Wira rhea - please do not insult vandals when you revert and template them, it is not helpful. GirthSummit (blether) 16:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Editor threatening to edit war using students
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This is User:Tympanus who on User:Ermenrich's talk page said
Dear Ermenrich, As you deduce from my posts at the Teahouse, I am prepared to start an edit war in order to get a decision from wiki authority. (However, I would not appear in this war, because I have enough students who would be ready for this job.) But do we actually need an edit war? Any attentive reader of Badenhausen's article would conclude the superfluousness of Ritter's basic position at hand of elder German scholarship, as I have pointed out this in the German Thidrekssaga article. We know that this does not contradict the prevailing opinion even of the eminent William J. Pfaff who considered Thidreks's Bern not only in Italy but also at the northern Verona-Bonn with regard to earlier legendary northern accounts. Furthermore, it is obvious that Badenhausen follows not Ritter, but only Kemp Malone's and some elder German scholarship's identification of the historical prototype of Thidrek (cf. the German article), since we also know that his milieu cannot be identical with those apparently Italian drawn Dietrichs provided by MHG poetry. I was told that Badenhausen's article has some hundred hits per week, that is much more than the German wiki article. I have no idea of the final wiki decision or a consensual policy that allows a link to Badenhausen's article, but I can assure you that he generally removes obsolete contextual statements in its update history as well as in the text.
As Ermenrich appears to be not around now I'm reporting this as I advised him to do earlier. See also his post to me at User talk:Doug Weller#Another Fringe pusher where he suggests Tympanus may have a COI. There's a content dispute underlying this, but the threat to editwar is clearly unacceptable. In the meanwhile I've protected the article at issue, Þiðreks saga. Doug Weller talk 19:26, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Doug, I'm in the midst of a romantic weekend getaway so I actually hadn't even read this threat of edit warring carefully enough to notice the threat to use students. Only other thing to add is that Tympanius appears to be a single-purpose account (he has one edit not related to Dietrich von Bern) and that I have suspicions he may actually be Rolf Badenhausen, the fringe author he's pushing. He is at the very least in direct contact with him [124]. Also: who else would insist on using this guy's website as a source on WP? In that case, there's also wp:coi going on here.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- People who say they have armies of students to do X or Y for them always turn out to be fantasists. EEng 09:32, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
User:Aesthetics4eve
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Aesthetics4eve (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User's only contributions are vandalism, and responded to my warning with a personal attack. Tdc42 (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- WP:AIV is better suited to address this kind of behaviour.Lurking shadow (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Cjwilky topic-ban
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- Cjwilky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Homeopathy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Cjwilky was topic-banned from homeopathy, and responded by testing the limits - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835 § Persistent bullying on Homeopathy talk Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835 § Persistent bullying on Homeopathy talk.
He has recently started editing homeopathy and commenting on Talk. I asked on his Talk page if the ban had been lifted, as both Brunton and I have looked for any lifting of the ban without success. I invited him to self-revert if the ban is still in place. His response was belligerent, he did not link any discussion lifting the ban, and he made another edit at talk:homeopathy early this morning (UK time, he is UK based).
Is anyone aware of any lifting of this ban? Guy (help!) 08:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I've blocked Cjwilky for 72 hours for violating their "indefinite" topic ban. El_C 09:04, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, thanks, that suggests that you can't find a lifting of the ban either. I think it's fair to require the user to link to any such discussion if it exists, otherwise we can proceed on the basis that the ban is still in force.
- For context, he's a homeopath and antivaxer. His edits to footie articles seem fine though. Guy (help!) 09:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned, the topic ban duration was fixed as "indefinite." If it was lifted, somehow, they should have just plain said so upon being queried about it. Their failure to have answered that question, in my mind, results in the topic ban still being active, by default. On the rare chance the topic ban was, in fact, lifted at some point, they could make that clear by linking to that discussion and, in turn, be immediately unblocked with apologies. El_C 09:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Kazemita1 block changed from indef to 3 months
Through Cabayi's advice, RoySmith recently indef-blocked Kazemita1 for block evasion. El_C changed this from indef to a 3-month block. The case could do with further feedback.
Some highlights from Kazemita's editing history to his current block:
1) For the last several months, Kazemita1 has been a SPA account at People's Mujahedin of Iran, where he has received an increasing number of warnings for edit warring there. ([125]) ([126]) ([127]) ([128]) ([129])
2) The edit warring led to Kazemita1 being blocked several times
3) While being blocked (for two weeks), Kazemita1 uses different IPs to continue edit warring (at which time I file a SPI)
4) The SPI leads to Kazemita1 being indef'ed for socking
5) Kazemita1 appeals the block by citing the US constitution. The unblock request is rejected by 331dot.
6) Kazemita appeals for a second time, this time blaming "lack of proper SPI investigation to at least relate these IPs to me", as well as blaming other editors and not admitting to socking.
7) I point out that the IPs edited the exact same text that Kazemita1 was edit-warring about, which was either an amazing coincidence or block evasion.
8) Kazemita1 removes my post and his claims about "lack of proper SPI" practices, and changes his unblock request now admittig to socking/block evasion.
9) El_C changes Kazemita1's block from indef to 3 months.
Only when it was pointed out that the evidence showed he was the one behind the IPs, did Kazemita1 admit to socking/block evasion. Kazemita1 has apologized in the past for their actions, and yet they continued to edit-war using purposely-deceptive IPs that wouldn't be traced back to them. In light of this, I think that the changing of Kazemita1's block from indef to 3 months, for an increasingly-disruptive editor, merits further feedback from the community. Alex-h (talk) 10:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I secured the permission of the blocking admin to amend the indefinite block. Note that I warned Alex-h against edit warring on Kazemita1's talk page.[130] El_C 10:59, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Alex-h: opening this thread may not be a good idea. All behaviors become open for scrutiny. In your case, your edit-warring on the talk page, but further, the subsequent revocation of the user's talk page access which was questionable to say the least. A can of worms, I think it's called. ——SN54129 12:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Serial Number 54129, yes, El_C did warn me about restoring my post on Kazemita1's talk page, which is when I stopped writing on Kazemita1's talk page. About "the subsequent revocation of the user's talk page access", that had nothing to do with me, although I disagree that it was "questionable" since Kazemita had been canvassing. Alex-h (talk) 14:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I am asking for input on what to do after receiving this comment in my talk page from Hijuecutivo. In a clear breach of WP:NPA, I was called a "political commisary", "inquisitor", "Stalinist" and received unfounded accusations of vandalism, just because I reverted some unsourced, tendentious IP edits at Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, Francisco Largo Caballero and Jesús Hernández Tomás (by now, it is apparently obvious that the IP is Hijuecutivo editing while logged out). While I'd normally be done with reverting such comments from my talk, I am worried after I was told that "after these actions, you better consider leaving Wikipedia"
and after another comment was issued when I reverted the original one, calling me "imprudent", "Wikipedia guard dog", asking me to "resign" and somehow suggesting that this new comment was a "torture-like policy" on me; all of which would be a breach of WP:HARASS. Also, the remark that "Injuries are criminal offenses" made by Hijuecutivo within their first comment on my talk looks like WP:THREAT. Impru20talk 15:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hijuecutivo blocked for one week for general battleground behaviour that includes personal attacks and harassment. El_C 15:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
User:SharabSalam
SharabSalam continues to remove relevant and properly sourced information from articles regarding Islam, most recently Muhammad in the Quran. This user has been mentioned at WikiProject Islam and has been warned multiple times about obvious POV pushing. I've tried to be civil with this user, I've never reported anyone at ANI before, but I feel this is the only way to prevent further disruption. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Please use DIFFS to support each of your claims. Thanks! Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why not attempt to discuss the dispute on the article talk page, instead of bringing your content dispute to ANI? El_C 17:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page. This is not a simple content dispute. This user persistently attempts to remove potentially negative information from Wikipedia articles. This user is trying to paint their own picture on Wikipedia. This user also recently marked a large removal as a minor edit. I will provide diffs soon. I apologize that I do not know how to link diffs. I will try to figure it out. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Usedtobecool and El_C, this [edit] is the most recent one that I was talking about. I will provide more. The page is now fully protected, and the information that this user removed has not been restored. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page. This is not a simple content dispute. This user persistently attempts to remove potentially negative information from Wikipedia articles. This user is trying to paint their own picture on Wikipedia. This user also recently marked a large removal as a minor edit. I will provide diffs soon. I apologize that I do not know how to link diffs. I will try to figure it out. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)