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It will end when both admins are topic banned from portals. This is absurd. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 11:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC) |
It will end when both admins are topic banned from portals. This is absurd. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 11:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC) |
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* I urge anyone interested to actually read [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport]]. |
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:The problem there is that [[User:Northamerica1000]] is engaged in a sustained exercise of gaming the system, which includes: |
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:* systematic and repeated misrepresentation of other editors |
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:* repeatedly citing as guidance a page which they themselves asked not be a guideline |
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:* using sneaky and stealthy editing techniques to hide severe POV-pushing |
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:* refusing offers to collaborate on RFCs to resolve susbstantive issues |
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:* repeatedly posting demonstrable falsehoods across multiple discussions (the most of extreme of which led me finally decided to call a spade a spade, and explicitly call them "either a liar or an idiot") |
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:That MFD is yet another venue for a sustained baiting exercise by NA1K, who has deployed similar techniques many times before. The pattern is that NA1K engages in a sustained pattern of verbosely posting faleshoods, deceptions and failures of reasoning; and then howls "personal attack! hounding!" when called out on their lies and idiocy. |
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:I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both. |
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:I have never before seen on Wikipedia any admin attempt to game system as brazenly as NA1K has here: |
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:# call for a Wikipedia guideline to be delisted, and downgraded to a failed proposal |
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:# then cite that same failed proposal in defence of POV-pushing, ... and when challenged on that duplicity, dig deeper trying pompous word-play to create a synonym for "guideline": {{tq|schema for advisement|q=y}} |
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:This is not social media. We are here to build an encyclopedia. That is an intellectual process which requires both honesty and integrity, and the ability to engage in rational discussion. NA1K's conduct repeatedly reveals some sort of severe deficiency of that combination, and it reached its peak at the Transport MFD. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 14:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC) |
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== I made a mistake moving a page == |
== I made a mistake moving a page == |
Revision as of 14:23, 10 November 2019
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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IiKkEe's stylistic changes that leave articles, especially medical articles, in an inaccurate state and/or state of disarray
- IiKkEe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
At various articles, especially medical articles, and especially with regard to the leads, IiKkEe makes unnecessary stylistic changes that often leave the text in a less accurate, simply inaccurate, and/or sloppy state. It's not unusual for these edits to not align with Wikipedia's policies or guidelines. It's not unusual for IiKkEe to change the context and/or meaning of things, and to give WP:Undue weight to things. And this includes articles that are of WP:Good or WP:Featured status. The editor can make many edits in a row, which, in addition to usually needing to be reverted or tweaked, can take up a lot of time when reviewing the changes. And the editor's content is sometimes unsourced. As seen here, here and here, the editor has also been known to edit war just to retain their edits. The editor has gotten a bit better about this over time, being more willing to go to the talk page to discuss, but it's not enough. Discussion can consist of the editor wanting their way, and then editing the article in some other problematic fashion if they don't get their way.
To get right into this matter, see the examples below.
Examples of IiKkEe's problematic editing, spanning years.
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There are a lot of other examples of IiKkEe's changes that leave articles in compromised states, but I focused on the examples I reviewed and some that are mentioned on IiKkEe's talk page. This Potassium article example is another from IiKkEe's talk page. IiKkEe can be polite enough when interacting with editors, but being polite isn't enough to negate editing/competence issues. Furthermore, as indicated by this section on IiKkEe's talk page, IiKkEe has a tendency to thank editors via WP:Echo and go right back to editing disruptively. I've experienced this with regard to IiKkEe and other editors whose edits were riddled with issues. It can have the effect of seeming antagonistic even when it's not meant to be.
IiKkE's editing reminds me Anthony22's editing, except that Anthony22's problematic stylistic changes mainly concerned biographies. He was recently "indefinitely topic banned by the community from making stylistic and grammatical changes, broadly construed, to any article on English Wikipedia." Original thread on that is seen here. I'm not sure what the best remedy should be in IiKkEe's case, but if the community decides that he should refrain from editing medical articles, this should be broadly construed to include anatomy and sexuality articles since they often overlap and IiKkEe has edited problematically at some anatomy articles (such as Nephron) and questionably at a few sexual topic articles thus far. I just know that something needs to be done. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Like Flyer22 Reborn said, there are many more examples of this behavior. Here are just a few that I've seen over the last 2 weeks:
- Here they changed "usually involves" to "is" purely for being "more direct", but had to be reverted because it ignored that sources vary.
- Here they removed "typically" in the 1st sentence, which caused it to be only about the female genitalia and making it contradict the 3rd sentence about the anus.
- Here at Oral sex they changed the 1st sentence significantly by changing "or" to "and". It went from saying "(including the lips, tongue, or teeth) or throat" to "including the lips, tongue, and teeth; and the throat".
- At the same article, they changed "female genitals" to "vulva", which had to be changed to "vulva or vagina".
- IiKkEe then, because they wanted the terminology to be "comparable", changed the sentence from "Cunnilingus is oral sex performed on the vulva or vagina, while fellatio is oral sex performed on the penis" to "Cunnilingus is oral sex performed on the female genitalia - the vulva and vagina - while fellatio is oral sex performed on the male genitalia - the penis and scrotum". Thus, they again made up their own definition for fellatio. They were rightly reverted. I also replied to them on the talk page.
- Again, these are just a few very recent examples from just a few articles that IiKkEe has edited. This editor seems to put their own subjective and often poor style opinions ahead of sourcing and common usage. This results in problems, as explained by Flyer22 Reborn.
- As shown by her examples, this appears to be an ongoing problem over many years. IiKkEe should have learned better by now. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- User:Flyer22 Reborn thanks for raising this. I share your concerns. It is not clear if IiKkEe actually reads the sources in question or simple changes text to what they personally feel is better.
- In this edit[1] they changed correct text to first "a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 13 to 15 (under 13 is interpreted as no traumatic brain injury(TBI) and over 15 as moderate or severe TBI)."
- Than in this edit they changed it further[2] "a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 13 to 15 (over 15 is interpreted as no traumatic brain injury(TBI), 9-12 as moderate TBI, under 9 as severe TBI)."
- There is NO such thing as a GCS of greater than 15. Gah. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:48, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- They are one of a certain type of difficult editor, who just tinkers carelessly or beyond their capacity. They have been around since 2014, very rarely engaging on their talk page. This pattern suggests English language competence may be a factor here. A widescreen topic ban may well be the only remedy. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- I was mixed up with the Anthony22 issue a month or so ago and I agree that it's a big issue. In this case, it is even worse since he is making a flurry of small but significant changes to articles that alter the meaning (often making them inaccurate). This type of edit is hard for a user who is not a subject matter expert (e.g. someone like Doc James) to patrol since it is not overtly vandalism. It wouldn't be a big deal if this user was responsive on the talk page but he isn't -- like Anthony he just does whatever he wants and leaves it up to others to clean up after him. If this user is willing to be more responsive and to stop making such changes without discussion, I would be OK with letting it go but so far he hasn't been. 73.128.16.15 (talk) 19:58, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Since the editor continues to edit articles while making no response to the complaint here, I've blocked them for 48 hours. Any admin can lift this block if they become convinced that User:IiKkEe can and will change their editing behavior to answer these concerns. EdJohnston (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for assessing this, EdJohnston. I wouldn't state that IiKkEe is as unresponsive as Anthony22 usually is, considering that IiKkEe is significantly more open to responding on his (or her) talk page, but I don't see that IiKkEe's behavior will change at all. Like you noted on IiKkEe's talk page, they continued editing while concerns were being expressed in this thread. And IiKkEe's response indicates that IiKkEe still isn't willing to comment in this thread. IiKkEe stated, "Who are you? Who do I discuss this with? I assume with an objective administrator assigned to look into the accusations, not one of my accusers. I am not familiar with this process." So IiKkEe appears to be stating that this case is in administrators' hands alone. Also, one does not need to be familiar with the process to take the time to respond in an ANI thread about their problematic behavior. Once the 48 hour block expires, IiKkEe will keep on editing the way they have before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:40, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- Since the editor continues to edit articles while making no response to the complaint here, I've blocked them for 48 hours. Any admin can lift this block if they become convinced that User:IiKkEe can and will change their editing behavior to answer these concerns. EdJohnston (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I was mixed up with the Anthony22 issue a month or so ago and I agree that it's a big issue. In this case, it is even worse since he is making a flurry of small but significant changes to articles that alter the meaning (often making them inaccurate). This type of edit is hard for a user who is not a subject matter expert (e.g. someone like Doc James) to patrol since it is not overtly vandalism. It wouldn't be a big deal if this user was responsive on the talk page but he isn't -- like Anthony he just does whatever he wants and leaves it up to others to clean up after him. If this user is willing to be more responsive and to stop making such changes without discussion, I would be OK with letting it go but so far he hasn't been. 73.128.16.15 (talk) 19:58, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- They are one of a certain type of difficult editor, who just tinkers carelessly or beyond their capacity. They have been around since 2014, very rarely engaging on their talk page. This pattern suggests English language competence may be a factor here. A widescreen topic ban may well be the only remedy. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- After a discussion at User talk:IiKkEe#ANI, I unblocked IiKkEe so they could respond to the issues raised here. I suggested focusing on a small number of key points. IiKkEe has asked for "a few days" which seems excessive to me, however, there should be a response before further editing occurs. Johnuniq (talk) 22:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Considering that threads on ANI are archived after a certain timeframe, IiKkEe's responses should come before this thread is set to archive. Either that, or it will continue to need a new comment to keep it from archiving or it should be tagged with User:DoNotArchiveUntil. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Added DNAU template to keep this alive until discussion takes place. If there is no response from the user within a week, then we should probably move on to an indef. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Considering that threads on ANI are archived after a certain timeframe, IiKkEe's responses should come before this thread is set to archive. Either that, or it will continue to need a new comment to keep it from archiving or it should be tagged with User:DoNotArchiveUntil. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
My reply. I may not be able to complete this in one sitting. Please allow me to finish before responding.
Based on the above criticisms, I will take the following actions:
First, I volunteer to stop editing WP for 3 months ie until February 1, 2020.
Second, I propose the following for any of my future edits: 1) I will not edit any article that Flyer22 Reborn has edited. 2) I will place a notice on the Talk page of any article I plan to edit, which will include which one paragraph or section I plan to edit, and will invite scrutiny of my edits. I will also notify any major active contributor(s) at that site. 3) I will accept any reversions of my edits and discuss them on the Talk page if I have questions. 4) I will make no more than 10 edits per day to any Article. 5) I will add a reference to any edit which changes the meaning of that already referenced sentence.
Third, I will respond to the speculation that I am not fluent in English, and that I am not qualified to edit the articles I have chosen to edit. I was born and have always lived in the United States; I am fluent in English. I graduated from Rice University with a BS in Biology. Undergraduate courses included physics, general chemistry, quantitative chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry, geology, anthropology, comparative anatomy, physiology, histology, and electrical engineering. I am a physician, a graduate of an American medical school, Board certified in Internal Medicine, and an Assistant Professor at an American Health Science Center. I lecture to second year medical students in my area of expertise. I have reviewed articles submitted to the New England Journal of Medicine for accuracy and format. I have participated in clinical research published in peer reviewed medical journals. I have published a single-authored textbook of Internal Medicine purchased and used by thousands of medical students.
Next, I will respond to Flyer22 Reborn's criticism of my editing based on direct interactions with me plus a reading of my Talk page. I believe there are fourteen articles/edits discussed. I suggest that these are not representative of my total work product at WP: I have been editing for 5 1/2 years; my guess is that I have submitted around 17,000 edits to around 500-700 articles, and interacted civilly, amicably, and productively with around 1000 fellow editors. Most have shown appreciation for my edits either at my Talk page, clicking "Thank you", or by giving tacit approval by reading my edits and not reverting or modifying them. I would guess that over 90 per cent of my 17,000 edits still stand as written today. However, I have run up against about a dozen editors over the years who verbalize outright scorn for my edits, reverting them in toto. My reaction to this is to move on to some other article.
Next, I will address the allusion to edit warring. It is correct that twice I have been *accused* of edit warring. But I have never been turned in for or investigated for that allegation. When I asked for details of at which edits exactly I had done this, none were provided. Perhaps on two occasions I was *perceived* as edit warring.
Next, I will address my relationship with Doc James as I see it. [I have been interrupted by the duties of the day. I will return shortly. Again, please do not respond until I have had a chance to finish. Thanks.] IiKkEe (talk) 15:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Just noting that it has been more than two days since IiKkEe said they would "return shortly." WMSR (talk) 01:54, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
TFBCT1's editing on longevity articles
- TFBCT1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- List of the oldest living people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Oldest people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Editor TFBCT1 has for years been knowingly and flagrantly using unreliable sources or sources deemed inadequate by the community for inclusion (from before 110th birthday, over 1 year old, no specific date of birth) at List of the oldest living people, Oldest people, and elsewhere. This has been explained to them many times, but they refuse to change their behavior, which has flared up again in the last few days as is seen in the first three difs.
1 They re-added using Find-a-grave an entry that was removed for lacking a specific birthdate, when that's obviously not a reliable source.
2 Their original addition of this entry.
3 Adding two invalid entries. The source for Eugenia Zuniga Jeldres was from before she turned 110, which the community has long deemed invalid as proof of being a supercentenarian, and Maria Vivaldelli was added with a link to a longevity fan website.
4 Here they re-added a removed entry with a source pre-dating 110th birthday and launched a personal attack against me.
5 Here they removed, for the fifth time, someone else's entry of a woman with a source pre-dating her 110th birthday at List of American supercentenarians, which shows they know such entries should not be included.
6 A thread about their inclusion of an entry whose only source was an image randomly uploaded to an image upload website, where it took three editors and a trip to RSN to get them to stop trying to add the entry with this source.
7 A long thread under "Major issues with Japanese supercentenarians" where they edit warred and launched personal attacks because long-standing consensus was being enforced, which they didn't like, yet they didn't do anything constructive to solve the problem.
8 Where they re-added two invalid entries to Oldest people based on hearsay and a Japanese report they had never seen.
9 My well reasoned statement and work was met with this 10 unconstructive, and absurd response for an experienced editor.
It's clear from years of evidence that TFBCT1 has no interest in changing their behavior and will continue to flagrantly ignore Wikipedia polices, such as WP:V, and long-established consensus in their pursuit of including any entry they want listed. They will also continue their personal attacks (the latest saying I have OCD) and habitual habit of making maintaining these lists far harder then it needs to be for other editors. Newshunter12 (talk) 15:53, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'm obviously involved in this, and I will second Newshunter12's take above. These lists have enough trouble as it is with people adding random "I heard it somewhere" names, and this makes it even more difficult to keep things in order. That last diff in particular is a nice example of a personal attack, and one that has no place anywhere but especially in a contentious topic; this topic area is finally a little calmer, trying to reignite the powder keg is a terrible move. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- It has come to my attention that they have re-added the entry for a third time stating the sourcing is fine and there is a YouTube video of her to. This was reverted by an imposter account (pretending to be me using a similar username) belonging to an IP editor who has been stalking me for nearly a year, sending death threats to me and other longevity editors, and trying to get me blocked. Please be forewarned they may try to further troll this complaint. Newshunter12 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- All issues identified by Newshunter12 were except the few current ones on the List of the oldest living people summarily closed without incident or cause. He is trying to re-hash old occurrences that have no current relevance. I'm going to be very specific as to the current situation. In the past Newshunter12 had been the one to add new individuals to the List of oldest living people. In recent months he stopped doing this, so I put my time and efforts into taking up this task. I added nearly 25 entries in recent weeks. Newshunter12 showed back up again after a long absence and removed seven entries from this list. This resulted in a bout of edit warring on the page due to dissent with his decisions(which I was not a part of). Of the seven removed four had been added by me. (2) of the cases were "good faith errors" on my part. Newshunter12 then proceeded to open a talk page discussion entitled "sourcing issues" which the main purpose was to defame and attack me and accuse me of doing something deliberate. The posting was so inflammatory that another editor warned me via my talk page that I was being threatened by Newshunter12. So I proceeded to respond. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TFBCT1 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I have never done anything knowingly, deliberately, or maliciously to undermine Wikipedia. I have been tirelessly editing the longevity pages for over 15 years probably with more dedication than any other editor. I feel very disrespected by Newshunter12. I do make mistakes, but no editor should be attacked in this manner especially when investing substantial amounts of their time and energy. Newshunter12 and I do have different visions of Wikipedia, he sees things more in "black and white," I like other editors see some areas open for interpretation. He is rarely willing to compromise and not just with me, but with any editor. This idea of "always having to be right" does not work well on Wikipedia.
One last note, I find it very inappropriate for Newshunter12 to incessantly mention the "constant death threats" he receives on Wikipedia, not only on talk pages, but also, within page histories. And to accuse this person or that person of being the certain "troll" perpetuating these threats. This type of personal drama has no place on Wikipedia.
I'm sorry I'm not able to provide you with specific links, diffs etc.. I'm not a young person and I'm not computer savvy. I just wanted to be able to paint a clear picture of what's going on. TFBCT1 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- My above difs and statements speak for themselves about what the truth is and isn't, but I think it's worth mentioning that, "The posting was so inflammatory that another editor warned me via my talk page that I was being threatened by Newshunter12" was done by the very IP troll who has been stalking me since last year, not some concerned onlooker horrified by horrible Newshunter12's actions. So much for drama has no place on Wikipedia, TFBCT1, and I apologize that I don't appreciate someone repeatedly talking about beating me to death with a hammer and some such because of my longevity edits. Newshunter12 (talk) 18:07, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Point in case. Newshunter12's response is purely reactionary, defensive. Nothing constructive. Nothing cooperative. Maybe it's just a matter of maturity.TFBCT1 (talk) 18:21, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for adding a new way of referring to me as a child to your vocabulary. "Childish","Infantile", "Manic", and "you are about 12 years old" were getting old. Newshunter12 (talk) 18:35, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'm the one who's deleted most of the threats against Newshunter12, and I can understand if you didn't see what was going on at the time, but acting now as said notification was a good faith note of concern is just feeding the troll. And if you think this is blown out of proportion, I've gotten a few myself (I personally prefer leaving those out for others to see, but understandably most people would rather not). This certainly isn't to accuse you of being behind it or anything, but it is a genuine, serious issue. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- And how is this appropriate for inclusion in “talk pages” and “page histories?” And why should Newhunter12 be able to lash out at one arbitrary IP address and then another as the likely “death threat” perpetrators on public page histories? It is clearly not appropriate. And I strongly admonish you not to insinuate that I have any involvement. When in fact, I received a message from a Newshunter14 on 4 July 2019 on my talk page accusing me of being the one leaving threatening messages on his talk page and threatening to have me banned. Followed by a message from Newshunter12 stating that was an “imposter” account and he had nothing to do with it. I find everything about Newshunter12 to be untrustworthy.TFBCT1 (talk) 18:58, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- As should be clear, and as was explained at the time in a couple places, the Newshunter14 account (as with the one which popped up today) was an obvious impersonator. I blocked the account for exactly that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:26, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- With all due respect when I’ve been persistently attacked by Newshunter12 in situations which no other editor has identified, and go away when he disappears why should anything be clear to me?TFBCT1 (talk) 19:41, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- @TFBCT1: Please post diffs of these attacks. Tiderolls 20:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- As I said previously, I’m not young, nor computer savvy and I don’t know how to post diffs. The last (2) times I felt attacked by Newshunter12 were 3 July 2019 when I received a threatening message on my talk page regarding the removal of a deceased Italian supercentenarian where sourcing had already been established on another page. It is very out of character for one editor to confront another editor in this manner in such a minor situation. The second instance occurred on the talk page for List of living supercentenarians on 3 November 2019 under heading “sourcing issues” where Newshunter12 proceeded to attack and threaten me as the main topic of the discussion which was just not justified. I was notified on my talk page by another editor that I was being threatened by Newshunter12. I also want to clarify that all this talk about me adding someone prior to their 110th birthday (and doing this knowingly). Yes, I read the date in reverse mm/dd/yyyy, instead of dd/mm/yyyy and I made a “good faith” error. Nothing deliberate. About a year ago, Newshunter12 added four individuals to this list with incorrect birth years. Instead of making a big deal about it, I just went in and corrected the mistake. Isn’t that how most adults would handle the situation?TFBCT1 (talk) 21:49, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- I see no attacks at the places you mentioned. That's where diffs can make a difference. You would be able to point us to specific posts; see Help:Diff. Tiderolls 22:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- I’ve done my best and I’m not sure what more I could provide, at both those locations he threatens me with no just cause, in my book that’s attacking. And I’m not sure what you’re really seeing. I made a couple “good faith” errors when filling in for another editor’s absence, was unjustly ridiculed for it on a talk page, notified by another editor that I was being threatened via my talk page, defended myself there, and ended up at ANI.TFBCT1 (talk) 22:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- @TFBCT1: If you can't provide a diff (here is a how-to), could you at least provide a quote (and page location) of specific threats and attacks? — MarkH21 (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- I’ve done my best and I’m not sure what more I could provide, at both those locations he threatens me with no just cause, in my book that’s attacking. And I’m not sure what you’re really seeing. I made a couple “good faith” errors when filling in for another editor’s absence, was unjustly ridiculed for it on a talk page, notified by another editor that I was being threatened via my talk page, defended myself there, and ended up at ANI.TFBCT1 (talk) 22:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- The main threat is the entire section added “sourcing issues” to the talk page List of the Oldest Living People. This section was not added to discuss “sourcing issues,” but to bash me. It’s clearly identified in the opening comments where I’m identified directly. Then in Newshunter12’s second comment he veers the attention back to ridiculing me unsolicited. This is not the intended purpose of a talk page and was inflammatory enough for another editor to warn me I was being threatened on my talk page. I also don’t know what the collusion between Newshunter12 and The Blade of Northern Lights is, but if you notice every time Newshunter12 posts, The Blade posts 2-3 minutes later with some affirmative response. I don’t know this second editor, nor have I ever worked with him. I am confused why he would say he is “obviously involved.” His mention of adding random “I heard it somewhere names” has absolutely nothing to do with me or this case. And finally I never said Newshunter12 had OCD. I stated he demonstrated an OCD nature which is quite different. So this characterization is also false.TFBCT1 (talk) 23:33, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Firstly, the reason you can't provide any evidence of my "personal attacks" at your talk page and elsewhere is because there were no personal attacks save the difs I posted of your personal attacks on me. Secondly, the person who "warned" you about me on your talk page is just the IP troll who has been stalking me since last year and who has a long history of screwing with other people to cause strife between me and those people in an attempt to get ME blocked, so please stop acting like it was Paul Revere or Sybil Ludington riding into the night to warn you of how Newshunter12 is out to get you. No one is out to get you, only hold you accountable for your own actions. Thirdly, it's false that you didn't make a big deal out of a one character error I made five times in a hidden section as this shows you used the tiny error I had previously made in an attempt to discredit me in a separate discussion.
- I see no attacks at the places you mentioned. That's where diffs can make a difference. You would be able to point us to specific posts; see Help:Diff. Tiderolls 22:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Point in case. Newshunter12's response is purely reactionary, defensive. Nothing constructive. Nothing cooperative. Maybe it's just a matter of maturity.TFBCT1 (talk) 18:21, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Fourthly, the difs in my opening statement demonstrate without a shadow of a doubt your misbehavior has been ongoing for years, not some one off mistake. Fifthly, how is an explicitly general statement that any editor may be taken to ANI a personal attack on you? Sixthly, you have a history of pretending fewer people have problems with your edits then really do as the thread in my sixth dif above shows and again in the most recent dispute over invalid entries. DerbyCountyinNZ, LuK3, Georgia guy, CommanderLinx and even the troll for a moment have all helped remove these invalid entries or expressed support for my side of the argument, while only the troll has been on your side there, yet you pretend it's just mean Newshunter12 picking on you.
- Seventhly, TBOTNL and I are not engaged in some conspiracy against you. Eighthly, how is "Newshunter12 has a habit of making up his own rules as part of his OCD nature" a hypothetical condition I might have? It's clear as day you are saying I have OCD, just as you have called me childish, manic, infantile and a 12-year-old. Newshunter12 (talk) 06:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think the personal attacks against Newshunter12 are unacceptable. Calling him a child, obsessive-compulsive, manic, blaming him for the actions of an impostor, calling him reactionary when he tries to defend himself, then feigning technological incompetence when asked for diffs is just gamesmanship and I think most people can see that. Reyk YO! 10:00, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Fine. I will just stop contributing to Wikipedia altogether. Let’s see if the longevity pages are better without any of my contributions or daily updating for the past 15 years. This is causing me too much stress and I clearly have no advocates.TFBCT1 (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Well, drama quitting is one way to go. Or you could just issue a mea culpa, work to address the problematic behavior being pointed out, and acknowledge the importance of WP:AGF. I'll never understand editors who would rather scream about their victimhood than just say "Eh, you're right that I probably should have handled that better, and I shouldn't be getting personal with people with whom I disagree." And then, you know, just go back to editing having learned a little bit about how to be more effective as a member of the community. Grandpallama (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- TFBCT1, WP:FLOUNCE Guy (help!) 10:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I will take the advice of the last editor. I apologize for the “OCD nature” comment. I have already apologized for other comments that surfaced which are quite old. I will be more careful when editing and try to avoid errors and not take on additional responsibilities because of other editors absences. I still may take a break from editing altogether because I am not “feigning” being old and this stress is not good for my hypertension.TFBCT1 (talk) 17:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Fine. I will just stop contributing to Wikipedia altogether. Let’s see if the longevity pages are better without any of my contributions or daily updating for the past 15 years. This is causing me too much stress and I clearly have no advocates.TFBCT1 (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I support topic-banning any editor who has no mainspace contributions outside topic of claims of extreme age. This has been a festering sore on the project for years. Both of the OP and the respondent fall into this category. Virtually nothing has changed since Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity, IMO. The entire area is a constant battleground, prone to dodgy claims and in some cases spam. Guy (help!) 10:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I have over 23,000 edits on Wikipedia. Ranging from interests in population statistics, tennis, papal history, longevity, and climate, but thanks for the input.TFBCT1 (talk) 15:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I have done extensive editing with interests ranging from portal cleanup, comics, animals, and general AfD. Longevity is only one small piece of my editing history, one which I hadn't touched in months before a few days ago. TFBCT1 is not a longevity SPA and neither am I. They have made many valuable contributions to this topic for over a decade and it's a shame their misbehavior is intractable as far as I can tell. The same stuff for years. Newshunter12 (talk) 04:40, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I have over 23,000 edits on Wikipedia. Ranging from interests in population statistics, tennis, papal history, longevity, and climate, but thanks for the input.TFBCT1 (talk) 15:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't go that far, there has been a lot of progress in the last year and change. And both editors you reference have done plenty outside this topic (Newshunter12 only just recently returned to it at all, he's been hard at work handling the fallout from the portal fiasco); though I've had my disagreements with TFBCT1, he's certainly not in the same category of the 110 Club fanboys. And there's no equivalent to JJB in this area anymore, mercifully. No comment on a topic ban would be appropriate for anyone, but I'd be remiss not to give an inside perspective. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:22, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think st this stage, we should accept TFBCT1’s statement to be a lot more careful when editing, and adhere to PAG (which several of his edits quoted in this thread squarely violate), on good faith. We should also accept The Blade of the Northern Lights’s observation that things have improved materially in this area from the past. If things escalate again, then more decisive action can be considered; all should note that the community seems to have a shorter fuse in this area given the history. I suggest we close this at this stage. Britishfinance (talk) 10:39, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
History of edit warring, POV pushing on political and racial topics
- GergisBaki (talk · contribs)
- Ashkenazi Jews (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Genetic studies on Jews (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Continuing on several articles today, deleting sourced content. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:02, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- I boldly deleted and haven't re-deleted. The text I deleted is obscuring the plain fact that DNA studies indicate Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly European on the matrilineal side. (The paragraph misleadingly conflated studies describing an original Middle Eastern ancestor with studies concerning the total percentage of Middle Eastern ancestry.) GergisBaki (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Where are the diffs? There is no discussion in Gergis talk page, you cant just send a warning and then report him.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Will provide diffs. And yes, given a lengthy edit history, multiple warnings and a block. See user's talk page. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Links to most recent deletions above. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:19, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- For good measure, there's
- Links to most recent deletions above. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:19, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Will provide diffs. And yes, given a lengthy edit history, multiple warnings and a block. See user's talk page. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- White Americans (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
GergisBaki has indeed been edit warring on White Americans. Check the page history starting on October 29th. [3] They have been edit warring, using their own preferred definitions rather than going by the sources, and making false statements about what is in the sources. And some of this was after being warned on the article talk page. [4] And there has been a whole litany of issues with them as seen by their user talk page. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:05, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
207.197.0.0/17: Schoolblock needed?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 207.197.0.0/17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
This school IP range had a 1-year block expire in September. Since then, it's been used to make about 120 edits, with, by my rough count, fewer than five constructive. I'd take this to AIV, but something has always felt a little bit ... off ... about blocking 32768 addresses without an archived discussion. Anyway, perhaps another block is needed? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I blocked a smaller /24 range (256 IPs) for a year; looks like nearly all of the vandalism was coming from there. If you are still seeing vandalism from beyond that range, let me know and I can expand it. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:30, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Unblock request now at two+ weeks, editor apologized, seems simple enough?
- Tatzref (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- User_talk:El_C#Your_block_of_Tatzref
More than 14 (full 2 weeks ago) ago Tatzref (talk · contribs) received an indef block from User:El C following a report here. Tatzref requested an unblock on his talk page (User_talk:Tatzref#ANI) shortly after, but so far it has not been reviewed (besides me only two other non-admins commented in the relevant discussions, as well as El C who declined to take any further action). I think it is quite unfair to leave an editor dangling for that long; either tell him he is not welcome here for the rest of his life or unblock him. As far as I can tell, Tatzref was accusing of violating WP:OUTING, but while I cannot access the revdel versions, he states that he only suggested that another editor name should have been revealed in a newspaper article (which already named three other Wikipedians, all of them however disclosed their identity publicly). He did not post any name or other private information on Wikipedia or anywhere else, and he did not even speculate about what it may be, he just said that it should be disclosed. El C noted in his reply that Tatzref posted some urls that "seemed highly suspicious at the time and [were] factored into the block" but "on closer examinations [are] actually fine". I do not believe that Tatzref did anything that warrants more than a warning; suggesting that someone's identity should be revealed is in bad taste but it is not OUTING (we don't penalize thoughtcrime, right?). Further mitigating circumstances to consider are the fact that the editor Taztref was referring to has been himself indef blocked by ArbCom for off wiki harassment, of which Tatzref might have been a victim off (I am not sure about that) and regardless of any connection here that Tatzref himself was recently subject to pretty nasty off wiki harassment which he documents on his talk page. So if he lost his nerves a bit, it is somewhat understandable. In either case, in his unblock request Taztref apologized and promised to be careful in the future: "If I did contravene the Wikipedia policy in any way it was unintentional, as the policy does not address this situation, and I apologize for having done so. Had I received a warning, which I believe would have been the appropriate course of action, I would have taken heed. If I am unblocked, I undertake not to discuss the matter further.". Given that per WP:INDEF "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy... As with all blocks, it is not a punishment. It is designed to prevent further disruption, and the desired outcome is a commitment to observe Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and to stop problematic conduct in future." think that Tatzref should be unblocked, since he clearly promised to be careful in areas related to OUTING in the future. At least, assuming there is any shred of truth behind it when we say that blocks and such are preventative, not punitive. Seriously, if he did out someone, saying sorry may not cut it, but saying that someone should be outed and apologizing for it later is hardly an indication of hardcore vandal deserving an instant ban... Thoughts? Endorse indef, shorten, unblock, issue any further warning? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:10, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Piotrus, did you ask El C? Guy (help!) 09:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- User_talk:El_C#Your_block_of_Tatzref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to endorse the block, but unblock on the basis of "time served" given that the events were highly charged and the issue is now largely moot. Guy (help!) 10:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Uninvolved editors should not be posting requests to review unblocks here. There are many blocked editors who have been waiting in the queue for a while. Asking admins to handle some random person's request is not fair to the other editors. Someone will eventually get around to the unblock request. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Letting potentially unjustly blocked editors languish indefinitely isn't fair either. Tatzref has been blocked for two weeks, and you're saying there's people who've had their unblock requests left sitting for even longer than that. I think that's not a satisfactory situation, so maybe periodic reminders that the unblock request backlog is kinda long would be a good thing. Reyk YO! 11:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I had a quick look and Tatzref's unblock request does seem to be at the long end although I was hampered by below. Most others with longer requests either seemed to be the sort of insane requests where the editor had made many unblock requests and I guess no one could be bothered working out if they should kill talk page access do they just let it languish. Quite a few of the long ones also looked like they were socking cases so may require CU comment, or at least may require significant work (if the editor denied socking). Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Someone changed my subthread into a thread. I don't really mind since it's 50/50 whether it should be a subthread (it arises out of this, but it's only very minorly related), but to be clear when I said below I mean #Username change and unblock request. Nil Einne (talk) 13:00, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- I had a quick look and Tatzref's unblock request does seem to be at the long end although I was hampered by below. Most others with longer requests either seemed to be the sort of insane requests where the editor had made many unblock requests and I guess no one could be bothered working out if they should kill talk page access do they just let it languish. Quite a few of the long ones also looked like they were socking cases so may require CU comment, or at least may require significant work (if the editor denied socking). Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- NinjaRobotPirate, meh, no biggie I reckon. This is not a third party unblock request, after all, and people are allowed to have mates on Wiki. Guy (help!) 14:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Letting potentially unjustly blocked editors languish indefinitely isn't fair either. Tatzref has been blocked for two weeks, and you're saying there's people who've had their unblock requests left sitting for even longer than that. I think that's not a satisfactory situation, so maybe periodic reminders that the unblock request backlog is kinda long would be a good thing. Reyk YO! 11:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Piotrus, a thought stays in someone's head. A call to out an editor's real-life identity is not a "thought" —it is an outing effort— so the notion of a thought crime somehow having been enforced in this case seems rather spurious. As for the unblock request, as stated, I'd rather someone else attends to it as they see fit. El_C 16:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- El_C A public suggestion to act against a policy is not a policy violation, and is justifiable by WP:IAR. In response, we can tell people that violating policy is a bad idea. But blocking them for a suggestion is not far from thoughtcrime. If I were to say 'I think we should vandalize an article if we feel stressed', that would be a pretty stupid idea, but would you block me for saying this in a discussion? OUTING clearly states "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia ... attempted outing is sufficient grounds for an immediate block." It does not state that suggesting such an action should be taken is a policy violation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- That is a stretch. Policies are not created equal and this isn't a philosophical debate — on the contrary, it involves the lives of real people. At any case, vandalism is something that can be quickly corrected, but being outed could have permanent lasting effects. And they were not arguing to change the policy on outing, in general. Rather, they identified a particular individual as a target for outing. Painting that attempt as some harmless, fleeting thought is a distortion. El_C 17:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is an issue worth raising at WT:OUTING. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you would split the discussion. El_C 03:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Because WP:FORUMSHOPPING. He raised it twice here, once on Tatzref's TP and once on yours. I won't be surprised if we next see it on the Signpost: "Honest editor suggests Jewish conspiracy and paid editing, blocked by stray admin. Appeal to ArbCom ongoing." François Robere (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I also encourage the reviewing admin (and all other admins, as well) to read closely the redacted edits here and here, especially in regards to Tatzref's claim of an "Israeli/Jewish POV network." El_C 16:59, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Since I receive a copy of the redacted edits, I've reviewed this, and what I see is a statement that "there is a far stronger case for the existence of an Israeli/Jewish POV network than a Polish one" [in reference to the newspaper article covered in recen Signpost issue which makes a claim that a Polish one exists]. Shrug. His view is debatable, WP:NOTAFORUM might be invoked and discussion closed if it is irrelevant for encyclopedia building, but how does it relate to indef block I have not a faintest clue. PS. Come to think of it, since no public information was revealed, I am not sure if said redacted edits should have been or should stay redacted at all. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I operate under the notion that we have a low tolerance toward depictions which resemble Jewish conspiracies. What is even a "POV network" (how is that even established?) and why single out an "Israeli/Jewish" one vis-a-vis a Polish one? Obviously, there are two sides to Antisemitism in Poland debate, but a POV network? Really? Anyway, any admin is free to un-revdelete those revisions at any time, I have no objection. But as already mentioned, I'd rather not involve myself further in this unless directly queried. El_C 17:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Before being unblocked, shouldn't an editor's unblock request comply with WP:GAB? Most of Tatzref's unblock request continues the battleground behavior by blaming the editor who was outed, claiming it wasn't outing, saying the policy isn't clear, etc. – Levivich 19:04, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- "blaming the editor who was outed". No editor Tazref mentions was outed. Tatzref mentions Icewhiz, who was blocked for off wiki harassment. Not sure which part of his request is 'blaming him'? And what battleground mentality? It's pretty clear that Tazref apologized and promises not to act in such a way again. That's battleground mentality for you? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Few things to note:
- Tatzref was warned against making such comments at least twice before,[5][6] but didn't seem to mind.[7][8]
- He has repeatedly cast aspersions on his fellow editors, even when those were clearly false (see here for three such occasions). He had repeatedly claimed, without proof, that some editors are being paid for their work.
- He has repeatedly invoked antisemitic sources, such as Marek Jan Chodakiewicz,[9] "Mark Paul"[10] and Gilad Atzmon[11] (his first and last edits, respectively). In one case, in order to circumvent a ban on a source, he copied the source's references and tried to retrace its work.[12] He has repeatedly distorted sources, in one case
- Tatzref is not WP:here to build an encyclopedia. Don't let him back in. François Robere (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that you, in tandem with the now-indef banned Icewhiz, had criticized Tatzref time and again, including presenting extensive "evidence" about his purported bad edits and attitude, and workshop related proposals, during Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland. ArbCom chose to disregard all of your claims and made no finding concerning Tatzref, choosing instead to topic ban Icewhiz. One could assume that if Tatzref was indeed here not to build an encyclopedia, ArbCom would at the very least issue a remedy concerning him. Of particular relevance in said ArbCom, in addition to findings related to bad faith and battleground mentality, is the BLP violation one, where ArbCom noted that is inadvisable, to say the least, to make "negative claims or speculations about living scholars". Such as accusing them of antisemitism (see diffs linked in the finding). I'd suggest you take heed of what ArbCom wrote, assume good faith about others, and stop making inappropriate claims about BLPs. Tazref is here to build an encyclopedia just as you are. That his POV may differ is irrelevant. People who disagree with you are to be reasoned with, not banned. Wikipedia thrives on the multitude of voices, not on creating walled gardens by banning everyone who may have a different view. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Actually it's at least four editors who have independently raised issues regarding Tatzref's editing (see here and here as well).
- You already made the point on ArbCom, and I already replied: ArbCom ignored all evidence that wasn't directly about the parties - multiple editors', yourself included. They haven't rejected any particular claim about Tatzref or anyone else. You participated in the discussion on Jimbo's TP where their considerations were explained.[13]
- I assume you refer to Chodakiewicz, as "Mark Paul" is a pseudonym and Atzmon isn't a scholar. Jan T. Gross said that that Ch. is antisemitic, Piotr Wróbel said he "doesn't like the Jews", Joanna Michlic suggested he's prejudicial towards Jews and minorities, Laurence Weinbaum implied that he comes close to justifying anti-Jewish violence, and Andrzej Żbikowski wrote that he does indeed justify, and that he "lacks empathy" towards Jewish victims.
- And then there's Ewa Kurek, and the dozens of references to the Polish-Canadian Congress Toronto Branch's website - a non-RS that's unfortunately headed by a man who thinks Jews are trying to take over Poland economically.[14] I think that's enough. François Robere (talk) 13:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that you, in tandem with the now-indef banned Icewhiz, had criticized Tatzref time and again, including presenting extensive "evidence" about his purported bad edits and attitude, and workshop related proposals, during Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland. ArbCom chose to disregard all of your claims and made no finding concerning Tatzref, choosing instead to topic ban Icewhiz. One could assume that if Tatzref was indeed here not to build an encyclopedia, ArbCom would at the very least issue a remedy concerning him. Of particular relevance in said ArbCom, in addition to findings related to bad faith and battleground mentality, is the BLP violation one, where ArbCom noted that is inadvisable, to say the least, to make "negative claims or speculations about living scholars". Such as accusing them of antisemitism (see diffs linked in the finding). I'd suggest you take heed of what ArbCom wrote, assume good faith about others, and stop making inappropriate claims about BLPs. Tazref is here to build an encyclopedia just as you are. That his POV may differ is irrelevant. People who disagree with you are to be reasoned with, not banned. Wikipedia thrives on the multitude of voices, not on creating walled gardens by banning everyone who may have a different view. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Username change and unblock request
- Can someone deal with User talk:Pynf6PLq*8bl? I'm fairly sure that's breaking the bot for User:Cyberbot I/Requests for unblock report. (I've reported the possible problem to User talk:cyberpower678.) To be clear, I have no opinion on whether the editor should be unblocked. Nil Einne (talk) 11:54, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Actually just noticed it's also a request for a username change. Nil Einne (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- For clarity since someone changed my subthread into a thread, this arises out of the discussion above #Unblock request now at two+ weeks, editor apologized, seems simple enough? as I noticed it when researching the above. It's very loosely related since it's making it more difficult to assess what's going on, although I'm not sure it matters much. Nil Einne (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Actually just noticed it's also a request for a username change. Nil Einne (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Boinelomatlapeng copyvio images
- Boinelomatlapeng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Boinelomatlapeng has uploaded four images that mask copyvio/licence laundering status by linking to non-existent webpages. One of them has stock photo watermarks. ミラP 15:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Miraclepine, please provide links to the images in question. I went through the user's file edit history, re-tagged the fair use criteria for three, and marked a fourth for deletion based on very questionable license claims, but you should always provide links. Also, note to admins: Boinelomatlapeng tried to remove this report, so I'm not feeling the good faith here. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Creffett: Here they are:
- File:Kanaueda.jpg
- File:Nozomu-sasaki.jpg
- File:Koichi Yamadera.jpg
- File:Mori Katsuji.jpg
- ミラP 18:08, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Miraclepine, I don't think you have posted a notice of this ANI to Boinelomatlapeng's talk page, thanks. ?
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This user joined Wikipedia with the intention to undermine Assyrian related article, presumably due to some personal views.
His user page says: "working against Assyrian propaganda"
And he is taking to discussion on the Assyrian Genocide talk page, trying to push personal opinion on how Assyrians should be refered to as "Arameans" in the article, with no scholarly reference or any reference for that matter to back it up. Can you please prevent this user from editing on Assyrian related Pages? They've clearly stated their intention to "Work against Assyrian propaganda" which entails carrying personal opinion and confirmation biases throughout their editing work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramsin93 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
His first edit was vandalism, which was immediately reverted: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Assyrian_people_footer&oldid=924828912
in fact all of his edits look similar in their personal opinion and vandalizing nature. Ramsin93 (talk) 17:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Latexgoads repeatedly reinserting unsourced genealogy in Scientology articles
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Latexgoads (talk · contribs) inserts claim that L. Ron Hubbard is a descendant of a "Balthazar DeWolf". This is not backed up by the cited sources. (Even if sourced, it would be unnecessary trivia)
diffs: L. Ronreinserted re-reinserted, James Ronald Jamie
Feoffer (talk) 00:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is sourced, he is his descendant. Two sources here:
- LE GOUROU DéMASQUé, Sceptique
- A Surgeon with Custer at the Little Big Horn: James DeWolf’s Diary and Letters, 1876, by James Madison DeWolf, University of Oklahoma Press, May 25, 2017, Introduction
Scientology keeps on erasing this information for decades to substitute the DeWolf absolutely obvious descent with fake news stories about a french DeLoupe fictive french ancestor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Latexgoads (talk • contribs) 00:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Latexgoads (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- The sources you list don't connect L. Ron and Balthazar. (correct if that's wrong) Feoffer (talk) 00:40, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Extreme paid editing by Shueisha employee removing sourced content of very real accusations
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User:Crboyer is removing ALL MENTION of criticism of Weekly Shonen Jump because he is an employee of Shueisha. Koavf (talk · contribs) has exposed this already, he CANNOT remove SOURCED CONTENT from pages like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_designated_terrorist_groups&type=revision&diff=925302497&oldid=925302475Esperance2121 (talk) 05:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
First, I am not a paid editor. Second, user's Anti-Weekly Shonen Jump campaign outs them as a sock of Cow Cleaner 5000 This is the investigation page. Third, their source doesn't back up their claim. Crboyer (talk) 05:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- This user has gone way past 3RR at List of designated terrorist groups even after being warned. In addition, after a quick look at the edits this user is making, it's clear to me that the user is adding pure vandalism to pages simply to cause disruption. They're adding a comic book magazine title to List of designated terrorist groups, which is ridiculous and pure vandalism. Definitely WP:NOTHERE. Aoi (青い) (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- User:Esperance2121 is legitimately making the claim that the same comic/magazine that reports on updates for video-games and anime is somehow affiliated with a terrorist organisation. Clearly a case of NOTHERE as User:Aoi noted. -Yeetcetera @me bro 08:45, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Acroterion
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I am unable to use WP:RFPP due to admin Acroterion reverting my edits and revdelling them. Please block or desysop. wumbolo ^^^ 13:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Wumbolo: You are able to use RFPP and other disruption-reporting boards, but you are not allowed to post BLPVIOs in doing so. You know perfectly well that's our most important, universal policy, and while doing so once might be accidental, twice seems less so. Suggest this is withdrawn vice boomerang fly past. ——SN54129 13:59, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Three times. Wumbulo is disrupting to make a point. At least they didn't repeat the name here (and that's not a dare). Acroterion (talk) 14:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Serial Number 54129: please leave this to admins, you have no idea what my edits were. wumbolo ^^^ 14:03, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- You are posting in edit summaries and edits what is speculated to be the Trump administration whistleblower.; Unless and until the name is plainly reported in the usual media, it's a BLP violation to repeat the speculation. You know that perfectly well. Acroterion (talk) 14:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I am hereby violating my TBAN, but I must correct this bullshit. I did not say ANYTHING about any whistleblower. I made a policy-based request with NO mention of any whistleblower. wumbolo ^^^ 14:07, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Per Serial Number 54129, I saw the edits to Drmies and Acroterion's talk pages, as well as the unprotect request. Of course this is disruptive, complete with the demands for blocking and desysoping admins. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 14:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- So you're saying that Acroterion is lying about you posting a clear BLP violation? That's a pretty bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it works out for you. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:12, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- You posted a name, several times, that has been speculatively linked to the whistleblower, requesting that the article title associated with that name be unsalted. You're trying to narrowly frame your way past BLP to make a point on a highly sensitive BLP issue. Acroterion (talk) 14:13, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Wumbolo: saying
please leave this to admins
and thenI am hereby violating my TBAN
seems like a phenomenally bad idea. ——SN54129 14:14, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I am hereby violating my TBAN, but I must correct this bullshit. I did not say ANYTHING about any whistleblower. I made a policy-based request with NO mention of any whistleblower. wumbolo ^^^ 14:07, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- You are posting in edit summaries and edits what is speculated to be the Trump administration whistleblower.; Unless and until the name is plainly reported in the usual media, it's a BLP violation to repeat the speculation. You know that perfectly well. Acroterion (talk) 14:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Boomerang. O3000 (talk) 14:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- First, I only see one recent edit, not multiple. Second, the edit has been oversighted, which makes the whole issue moot.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:56, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: For the record, the (two) edits were revdel'd rather than oversighted. ——SN54129 15:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I might be getting something wrong, but in the last 150 edits on the page I only see one edit, 13:40, 9 November 2019, and it has been oversighted (otherwise I would be able to see it).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- [15]--Ymblanter (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: Wumbolo edited many different pages on which their edits were initially deleted and later oversighted. And, for the record, I don't think the issue of Wumbolo's misconduct, including violations of their topic ban, is moot.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- We can not make any conclusions on the basis of oversighted edits. It is clear that if they post something sensitive again they will be blocked on the spot, but for the time being I do not see how we can discuss their actions without diffs.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:51, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Re: Wumbulo's "you are a bad liar" comment - posting the rumored name of a person central to the biggest thing in American politics is most certainly a topic ban violation if your topic ban relates to American politics. However, I was addressing the BLP matter, rather than looking into your topic ban. Had I realized in the first place that you were under AP restrictions, I would have blocked you for boundary-testing. Would you rather I had done that, instead of doing revdels and scolding you? For Ymblanter's benefit, Wumbolo was posting the supposed name of the person who first accused Trump of misconduct relating to Ukraine - but that is based on rumor and has not been substantiated in reliable sources as is required by BLP. The name has been oversighted on that basis by an oversighter. Acroterion (talk) 16:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- And no, Wumbolo doesn't get to ban administrators from his talkpage like this: [16] [17] to evade consequences or criticism. Acroterion (talk) 16:15, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- We can not make any conclusions on the basis of oversighted edits. It is clear that if they post something sensitive again they will be blocked on the spot, but for the time being I do not see how we can discuss their actions without diffs.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:51, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: Wumbolo edited many different pages on which their edits were initially deleted and later oversighted. And, for the record, I don't think the issue of Wumbolo's misconduct, including violations of their topic ban, is moot.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- [15]--Ymblanter (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I might be getting something wrong, but in the last 150 edits on the page I only see one edit, 13:40, 9 November 2019, and it has been oversighted (otherwise I would be able to see it).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: For the record, the (two) edits were revdel'd rather than oversighted. ——SN54129 15:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Request some admins insight at Talk:2019 Hong Kong protests#RFC: Add any foreign countries as "support" of the protesters at infobox
- Talk:2019 Hong Kong protests#RFC: Add any foreign countries as "support" of the protesters at infobox (edit | subject | history | links | "support"_of_the_protesters_at_infobox watch | logs)
I think that there is a rule and neutrality violation here due to majority of the users having a POV. I've explained this to the users but stopped getting replies and wonder what an admin will think of this. The issue is about the infobox of the article and the inclusion of US and China. I think there is a neutrality violation, both US and China provided the same amount of support to the each side per sources, yet the talk page users insist that only China should be included, I think this violates WP:DEM. US congress has passed a bill supporting the HK protesters per source and China has verbally supported the HK Gov. Currently China is included under supported per the verbal support but US has been removed due to users commenting "Symbolic Support". Could use some insight, thanks. KasimMejia (talk) 13:57, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- China has provided more than "verbal support", it's literally one of the sides in the conflict. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 (talk) 15:53, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- You got a source for that? Also why did you start undoing my edits in other articles lol [18] watch out admins this IP is likely a sock puppet. KasimMejia (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
This is a clear content dispute and not suitable for ANI. That RfC has reasonable participation and there is some disagreement with your view. You should continue to engage with editors on the Talk Page, or, conduct your own RfC on the Talk Page if needed. After that, there are other Notice Boards for raising content disagreements if needed. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 19:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Britishfinance Which noticeboards can I use to address this issues in the future? Thanks. KasimMejia (talk) 07:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Aryakin2006
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Aryakin2006 appears to be the a block-evading User:Aryashahnaughtyyyy/User:Aryashahnaught, someone mind blocking? Also, one of them was CU-blocked and the other was globally locked as an LTA but I didn't see an SPI - anyone familiar with this LTA? creffett (talk) 13:59, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced content and junk edits to WP:BLP articles
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Raghuveer Aavula (talk · contribs) is responsible for adding unsourced content to WP:BLP articles, with nary an improvement among hundreds of edits. Final warnings haven't slowed the will to carry on. (Posted at AIV, with the recommendation to try here). 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Whistleblower identity
I warned WoodElf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and revdel'd two edits on Trump–Ukraine scandal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), but I am disturbed by this, which argues that Breitbart is credible (Washington Examiner was among the cources cited here). Guy (help!) 17:17, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- A supposed name has been added to the article, removed, and revdel'ed three times in the last two days. As a result I have imposed extended-confirmed protection. Snow consensus at the talk page is that we should NOT list any suggested or proposed or alleged identity for the whistleblower. At least not now while Reliable Sources are not doing so. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:27, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment There was a graphical source chart that, reasonably well, illustrated the degree to which a source was reliable, credible, and objective (possibly on Wikipedia); however, I can't recall its location. Personally, I would say the Washington Examiner is akin to the New York Post, so if that's a credible source, then it too is. It's got some issues with bias, but as to reliability, I think it's met. As for Breitbart, as I recall, it was regarded as more biased and less credible than Fox News but the graphical chart (which, as I say, was on Wikipedia or linked to from Wikipedia) still regarded it as "reliable"—if not somewhat questionable. I would equate it slightly less credible than Axios, and roughly the same as HuffPost. If HuffPo is not regarded by Wikipedia as reliable, then Breitbart would not be. Ideally, these sort of sources (HuffPo, Qz, Breitbart, et al.) should be cited by one other (and preferably two other) reliable source(s), I think. InfoWars, by contrast, is wholly not reliable.Doug Mehus (talk) 17:34, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)A good cheat sheet on reliability is WP:RSP. Which of course every source is to be examined on a case by case basis but this is a good summary of past consensus and discussion. I do not think either of those sources are good enough for naming the person yet. Unless, as MelanieN says, stronger sources are doing it. PackMecEng (talk) 17:38, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- PackMecEng, That's not the chart I was thinking of, but am pleased to see that BuzzFeed News is not considered reliable; I personally think either Breitbart should be a yellow caution/warning or BuzzFeed should be a grey/no. What's the policy on yellow/warning sources? As I said above...get it cited by one, ideally two, other green sources? Doug Mehus (talk) 17:41, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- It depends on the source, the list only summarizes past discussions on Wiki about those sources. It is hard to say what it would take, if a few really strong sources mentioned them and not in passing it might be worth talking about. PackMecEng (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- The other issue is that even the dubious (W/E, Spectator) sources refer to him as the "alleged" whistleblower. They don't state it as fact. Black Kite (talk) 18:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- PackMecEng, That's not the chart I was thinking of, but am pleased to see that BuzzFeed News is not considered reliable; I personally think either Breitbart should be a yellow caution/warning or BuzzFeed should be a grey/no. What's the policy on yellow/warning sources? As I said above...get it cited by one, ideally two, other green sources? Doug Mehus (talk) 17:41, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dmehus, https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ Guy (help!) 17:39, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- JzG, Thanks! That's the one I was thinking of! At any rate, The Washington Examiner may be a yellow/warning source, so it would count as one potentially reliable source but we'd want to get confirmation from a green source (including a primary source), I think?--Doug Mehus (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dmehus, it's a very bad source for politics, it's extremely biased. Guy (help!) 19:39, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- JzG, True...I just hope we're not counting HuffPo's original content as a reliable source, especially for politics. Their syndicated CP and AP content is fine.--Doug Mehus (talk) 19:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dmehus, it's a very bad source for politics, it's extremely biased. Guy (help!) 19:39, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- JzG, Thanks! That's the one I was thinking of! At any rate, The Washington Examiner may be a yellow/warning source, so it would count as one potentially reliable source but we'd want to get confirmation from a green source (including a primary source), I think?--Doug Mehus (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neither BB, IW, WE or NYP are RS, though WE and NYP aren't quite as low as the other two.
- Not that I disagree, but what is the Policy or TOS rationale for censoring the whistleblower name? François Robere (talk) 17:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BLP, obviously--Ymblanter (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, But does the whistleblower have a Wikipedia page? It's not clear to me how this policy applies here—unless it's libelous or the policy allows the subject to request deletion of their own Wikipedia policy?--Doug Mehus (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- BLP? You should know that.--Jorm (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- François Robere, Agreed. Unless it's classified, and I'm not sure it is, and unless it's libelous, which it isn't, I see no reason against publicizing the name. Doug Mehus (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dmehus, WP:BLPNAME. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Specifically WP:BLPNAME. PackMecEng (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- BLPNAME would be applicable, except that this article is based almost entirely upon the allegations of the whistleblower, therefore alleged identities of said whistleblower very much constitute part of the scope of the article. In this case, since the allegation is widely reported, I would advocate for its inclusion. As previously mentioned by another user, this does not constitute slander or state secrets. User:WoodElf 18:21, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @WoodElf:, they aren't using the whistleblower's report any more because of all of the on-the-record testimony that made it irrelevant. That affirms that the identify of the whistleblower is irrelevant to us. BLPNAME is clear. I have RevDel'd the addition of the name of the alleged whistleblower a few times myself and will continue to if necessary. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- BLPNAME would be applicable, except that this article is based almost entirely upon the allegations of the whistleblower, therefore alleged identities of said whistleblower very much constitute part of the scope of the article. In this case, since the allegation is widely reported, I would advocate for its inclusion. As previously mentioned by another user, this does not constitute slander or state secrets. User:WoodElf 18:21, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- This was a bit of a trick question: BLPNAME is only marginally applicable here - the part that is relevant to this case is so vaguely phrased, that one could easily argue for inclusion using other policy rationales. More convincing reasons AFAIC would be TOS-related (if that was against the law at some locale the WMF operates from) or extra-policy - and here I agree with K.e.coffman (see below): the main reason to exclude is that it might place that individual in serious personal danger, that is unjustified by any other Wiki-related consideration. To that I will add that Wikipedia, as a semi-journalistic pursuit, has an innate interest in the free flow of information, and exposing a legitimate whistleblower would undermine the very foundations of this enterprise. François Robere (talk) 20:40, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BLP, obviously--Ymblanter (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)A good cheat sheet on reliability is WP:RSP. Which of course every source is to be examined on a case by case basis but this is a good summary of past consensus and discussion. I do not think either of those sources are good enough for naming the person yet. Unless, as MelanieN says, stronger sources are doing it. PackMecEng (talk) 17:38, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment There was a graphical source chart that, reasonably well, illustrated the degree to which a source was reliable, credible, and objective (possibly on Wikipedia); however, I can't recall its location. Personally, I would say the Washington Examiner is akin to the New York Post, so if that's a credible source, then it too is. It's got some issues with bias, but as to reliability, I think it's met. As for Breitbart, as I recall, it was regarded as more biased and less credible than Fox News but the graphical chart (which, as I say, was on Wikipedia or linked to from Wikipedia) still regarded it as "reliable"—if not somewhat questionable. I would equate it slightly less credible than Axios, and roughly the same as HuffPost. If HuffPo is not regarded by Wikipedia as reliable, then Breitbart would not be. Ideally, these sort of sources (HuffPo, Qz, Breitbart, et al.) should be cited by one other (and preferably two other) reliable source(s), I think. InfoWars, by contrast, is wholly not reliable.Doug Mehus (talk) 17:34, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I am quoting a conversation that occurred between the admin and I on User_talk:JzG#Re:_BLP_violation_warning, defending my actions:
Hi, You recently posted a warning on my talk page regarding a violation of BLP. I contest this warning on the following grounds: "Inserting unsourced or poorly sourced defamatory content into an article" - I have cited RealClearPolitics and Washington Examiner. Since these are allegations and not facts being reported, I don't believe the same standards apply. "The identity of the whistleblower is a matter of fevered speculation in the right-wing partisan media" - Citation needed. And if there is speculation in the media, the fact that there is speculation, and the broad findings of said speculation, should be reflected in the Wikipedia article. "Wikipedia is not the place to blaze the trail" - Again, reflecting the reality of what is being reported is not blazing the trail. Personally, I find this action tantamount to censorship and does not reflect the ideals of Wikipedia. I hope you will reconsider your decision. User:WoodElf 17:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- @WoodElf: You cannot be serious. This is not a matter of "censorship". It's about Wikipedia being used (by you) as an extenstion of a harassment capmaign that targets a purported whislblower. Disclosing the name will place that individual and their family at risk of serious harm. Wikipedia should not be participating in this. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I understand your concerns, but again, I haven't delved into some fringe conspiracy website for this information. The allegations have been published on multiple websites and social media. The disclosure has already occurred. I take offense to the implication that I am a part of a "harassment campaign". I am simply reporting after the fact. User:WoodElf 18:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- BLP demands much more than that. Publishing somebody's name on the Internet and reporting on that name in the context of a rumor is far from the BLP requirement that multiple reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking have definitively stated that the person is who they are rumored to be. See the case of Richard Jewell. Acroterion (talk) 18:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Acroterion, That's a good point, but also a point of how the so-called reliable source media got things terribly wrong.--Doug Mehus (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, and it's one reason why the same media sources are vastly more cautious nowadays. And that was before the Internet was widespread. Acroterion (talk) 22:07, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Acroterion, That's a good point, but also a point of how the so-called reliable source media got things terribly wrong.--Doug Mehus (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with others that this should clearly be kept out: the whistleblower is a low-profile individual who has taken steps to keep their identity private. Stating the name doesn't serve any encyclopedic purpose and carries a substantial risk of harm to a living person. Reliable media sources (which generally have somewhat more relaxed standards than Wikipedia when it comes to this sort of thing) have mostly declined to publicize the name for precisely that reason. Even Facebook is deleting this, and I'd like to think we're at least slightly more careful than they are at this point. Nblund talk 18:51, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Filter
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- I suggest an edit filter be created to block addition of the name or its variants; whack-a-mole isn't good enough for this situation. EEng 19:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- WoodElf, you don't have to agree, and it doesn't have to be intractable when an admin is looking for input including from other admins, as was the case here. Guy (help!) 19:40, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I propose Special:AbuseFilter/1008 if people could review and improve please? Guy (help!) 20:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know how these filters work exactly. I presume it's not case sensitive? I'm just commenting here to say I fully approve of this. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- An excellent idea. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- A good suggestion and implementation. I'm of the opinion that it stay in place until and unless they are revealed and profiled in several high profile and very very reliable sources such as the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:00, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- An excellent idea. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I know there's a pagename blacklist, is there a username blacklist as well? Per [19], for example. Guy (help!) 23:03, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- There is a significant amount of media coverage regarding this name, including more reliable sources that are bringing up the name. I don't want to link said articles as it could theoretically be argued that posting such would be a WP:BLP violation, even though I don't subscribe to that belief. I will still call for an abundance of caution regarding this subject, for obvious reasons. I believe there should be a healthy discussion regarding the theoretical creation of this article, given the increasing media coverage--a trend that I believe will continue. This issue should be solved with collaboration by certain editors, and community consensus, not consistently revdeleting/stifling any discussion of it. I believe it should -eventually- become an article. Tutelary (talk) 02:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I would also add the following caution. Sometimes the media gets it wrong. Sometimes law enforcement and prosecutors get it wrong. See Richard Jewell, Yoshiyuki Kōno, Duke lacrosse case, and McMartin preschool trial. There is a real possibility that the name being bandied about is the wrong person. So how do we deal with the possibility of sources getting it wrong? Two ways. First, don't accuse living people of things without solid sources, and in particular, if an otherwise reliable source reports that Captain Jason McCord was a deserter and the source has no possible way of knowing whether or not that claim is true we should not consider that source to be reliable on the topic of McCord's guilt no matter how reliable it is in general. Second, when we do report such things, it should always be with attribution; Not "Jason McCord was a deserter" but rather "Wyoming Territorial Enterprise reporter Ned Travis called Jason McCord a 'deserter'." --Guy Macon (talk) 03:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Tutelary, we all know that when the most powerful man in the world is determined to get a name out, even when that would be a gross breach of both ethical norms and the law, then it will happen. Wikipedia is not going to be part of blazing that trail. The filter can be disabled when there is consensus it's no longer needed, which IMO would be after it is in at least two reliable mainstream sources with sufficient context to avoid violating WP:BLP.
- We are certainly not at that stage now.
- Analogy: publication of the name is like mobsters trying to smear the guy who pulled the fire alarm for claimed links with the fire department benevolent fund, and asserting that this somehow invalidates not just any investigation of the fire but also the finding that the burned out building is full of gas cans and match books with the mob boss's fingerprints all over them. Guy (help!) 11:41, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- This phrase "blazing the trail" keeps getting mentioned here. I contend that Wikipedia will not be blazing a trail by mentioning the whistleblower's name. His name has already been mentioned in multiple articles in RealClearPolitics, Washington Examiner and Heavy.com as well as many other smaller websites. I ask that my fellow editors understand that Wikipedia can, and should, update the article to reflect coverage. User:WoodElf 12:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Many other smaller websites" is generally a clear indication of BLP violation. If Fox News (for example) starts broadcasting the name with regularity, let's think again. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I can understand the BLP concerns for the Wikipedia page. I did not mention the name under discussion in this thread out of the same consideration. But going so far as to delete links to legitimate news websites which I cited in my defense on this thread?? Orwellian much? Besides which the alleged whistleblower's name was already in the news a couple of years earlier: (Redacted) User:WoodElf 13:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Many other smaller websites" is generally a clear indication of BLP violation. If Fox News (for example) starts broadcasting the name with regularity, let's think again. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Block-evading vandal
Bussy4life, now reappearing as IloveCLCstudent, is both a quite determined vandal, and seems keen to harass those trying to clean up their vandalism. This seems like a job for WP:AN/I. -- The Anome (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- There is now a third one, Candycreamqq. All three are currently blocked. I will file an SPI report - unless someone here wants to tackle the situation? The vandalism is severe, with rapid-fire posting of obscene pictures in the sandbox and on their own talk page, as well as attacking users who cross them. I suspect they will keep it up with additional socks. Checkusers, are you able to do a rangeblock on users as well as on IPs? -- MelanieN (talk) 18:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- And now resurfaced at Candycreamqq. Their main interest seems to be vandalizing the sandbox with sexual images. -- The Anome (talk) 18:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I believe a CU has taken a look and possibly done a thing. No guarantees for this one.. for future reference, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yourname. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Lazy-restless
Lazy-restless caught my attention after he had made this comment, and his history on Wikipedia shows that he has been trying to push a WP:FRINGE theory, which claims that Muhammad is a messiah of Hinduism. So far it is clear that Lazy-restless has no idea what is WP:RS, WP:SPS, WP:FRINGE and WP:BATTLE.
Until now, Lazy-restless has created:-
- Kalki Avtar aur Muhammad sahib (book) (deleted after this Afd)
- Kalki Avatar and Muhammad (book) (deleted after this Afd, also look at the DRV initiated by him)
- Muhammad and the Hindu scriptures by moving a faulty draft to main page
After the issue was raised on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Muhammad and the Hindu scriptures, he was quick to start canvassing other users,[20] and displayed further WP:IDHT. Bharatiya29 18:17, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I just looked a bit more through their editing history. That, and their latest edits/comments suggest someone clueless about the Vedas, when Bhagavat Purana was written, etc. That is not the problem here though, as we don't expect editors to be experts in the subject or field they are contributing. The problem is the repeated disregard for our content guidelines, repeated use of questionable and fringe sources in topic areas that are sensitive/controversial/provocative. Possibly a WP:NOTHERE who should move their attention to subjects/topics other than Indian religions, broadly construed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Pete Buttigieg edit suppression
On 22:30, 6 November 2019 an edit was suppressed by Diannaa ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Pete_Buttigieg ) despite the fact that I very carefully paraphrased, neither copying nor violating WP:Synthesis, in my 05:38, 6 November 2019 edit. I asked for logs showing this was a copyright issue and this editor was not able to provide logs indicating this was the case, instead arguing the material should be deleted. While I disagree the information should be deleted, that can be a discussion. However, edit suppression on the grounds of copyright infringement, when there was no copyright infringement, is a breach of admin duty. DouggCousins (talk) 20:38, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- I can't tell what the problem with NYTimes is as I've used up the monthly articles (Link), but the problem I see for the Vox article is that except from some synonyms and shifting sentence fragments around the verbiage is still fairly similar in the source:
A city-commissioned study on racial inequalities in the city from 2017 found the black population in South Bend has higher levels of poverty and unemployment than the country. About 40 percent of black residents are living below the poverty line, and there’s an 11 percent unemployment rate in that community.
in Vox article whileA 2017 study commissioned by the city on racial inequality in South Bend found the black population there has higher levels of poverty and unemployment than the country. The unemployment rate in the black community’s at 11 percent there, and about 40 percent of black people are living below the poverty line
is our article. This raises close paraphrasing concerns. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)- Beyond the close paraphrasing concerns, there's also the issue of this editor's POV pushing verging into the disruptive. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm subscribed to NYT, and the close paraphrasing is immediately apparent upon even an initial look. For example:
Reports of violent crime increased nearly 18 percent during the first seven months of 2019 compared to the same period in 2018. The number of people being shot has also risen markedly this year, after dropping last year. The city’s violent crime rate is double the average for American cities its size.
(NYT quote),Violent crime increased nearly 18 percent according to reporting during the first seven months of 2019 in comparison to the first seven months of 2018. There were also a greater number of people being shot this year, after that number dropped last year. The violent crime rate in South Bend is twice the average for American cities of its size.
(article edit). That's an extremely close paraphrase and for all intents and purposes is saying the exact same thing in the same way with only a few words changed. I would agree with this revision deletion, and would caution DouggCousins to avoid paraphrasing so closely going forward. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)- (edit conflict) I too looked at the NYT page, and found the same – a few words had been changed or shuffled about, but the text was recognisably the same and the sequence of the material was identical. Removal and revdeletion was entirely appropriate. The content in revisions 924254173 and 924469334, on the other hand, was copy-pasted verbatim from the sources. DouggCousins, any further copyright violation on your part is likely to result in loss of editing privileges. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:00, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Wumbolo
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Wumbolo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wumbolo was topic banned first from Andy Ngo and related people and then, on 24 July 2019, from post-1932 US politics and related people (Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log). Wumbolo "retired" and made only two edits between then and 5 November, bot to his user talk page.
Since 5 November Wumbolo has made 50 edits. The articles concerned are Lana Lokteff (a white supremacist), Amy Robach (involved in the Epstein story), Little Saint James, U.S. Virgin Islands (Epstein's island), Great Saint James, U.S. Virgin Islands (the island next door to Epstein's), Quillette (the magazine most closely associated with Andy Ngo) and then edits at WP:RFAR and elsewhere around Drmies' WP:SALTing of an article squarelty within the ambit of US politics.
Based on this, the exemplary Future Perfect at Sunrise imposed a perfectly proper block of 1 week per arbitration enforcement. Given that close to 100% of the edits made by Wumbolo since returning from "retirement" after a topic ban are violations of that ban, I can't help feeling that we may want to consider extending that somewhat. Guy (help!) 21:33, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. I've obviously been trying to keep the lowest of low profiles since coming back, but I do need chime in here since I would prefer not to lose Wumbolo as an editor. I also feel bad for the guy because I did recently encourage him privately he should consider ending his retirement. I genuinely think that Wumbolo was expecting to be told when a violation occurred by his editing rather than (in reality) the burden to comply being on him. Looking at his topic ban
(which needs to be logged on an unrelated note btw), it wasn't a "broadly construed" matter but just like the US politics. The proper action might be to give him a final warning and say upfront that future edits to any topic related to the Jeffrey Epstein matter are strictly prohibited.
Fut.Perf's block is still good, though. Wumbolo needs to cool down for a bit, and withdrawing the arbcom case request is a good first step to that. The week-long block probably finally got through to him. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Second that, I don't think the community needs to expand the block, AE actions should do the trick. One should hope that a weeks block might put the fear of god into Wumbolo. But if not...then their next topic ban vio should be a month, and then forever. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- CaptainEek, some of the edits violated two sanctions. Some also not only violated one sanction, they gave a clear indication of intending to violate another plus WP:BLP. That's indicative of quite a serious problem. Guy (help!) 22:26, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Second that, I don't think the community needs to expand the block, AE actions should do the trick. One should hope that a weeks block might put the fear of god into Wumbolo. But if not...then their next topic ban vio should be a month, and then forever. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- It will need to be an indefinite block. My biggest concern is that Wumbolo is showing significant divergence from what we would consider sensible, decent and proportionate under our biographies of living persons policy, additionally they show a gap in their understanding of the page protection policy and a refusal to concede that they have erred in their interpretation of that policy, finally, we have their repeated violations of their topic bans which simply cannot be allowed to go unaddressed. I would be in favour of allowing an appeal after 6 to 12 months, allowing the indefinite block to be reduced to the length of finite block we would generally be looking at for the numerous topic ban breaches we're witnessing in any case. Nick (talk) 22:14, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- (ec x 3 or 4) I second Guy's motion. Not only has Wumbolo repeatedly violated his topic ban, but this latest incident involved repeated attempts to add something to the encyclopedia which would be a severe BLP violation. It appears he tried to create an article about the person, and finding that the name was salted, complained about the salting first at ANI and then at AE. To me that by itself was blockable, on top of his repeated and deliberate violations of the TBAN. TBANs only work if they are respected. And sorry, MJO, but a person under TBAN should not expect babysitters or stalkers to follow him around, evaluating whether his edits comply or not. You say you would be sorry to lose him as an editor, but virtually EVERYTHING he has done since coming back from retirement was editing he was not supposed to be doing. I'm thinking this may be a straightforward enough matter to resolve via admin consensus here at ANI, without needing ArbCom's elaborate deliberative process. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, he first demanded at RFPP that the title be unsalted, then four minutes later on Drmies' talkpage, then did the same on my talkpage when I removed the post. After that, ANI, where he at least didn't repeat the person's name, then RFARB. I dealt with it as BLP violation, rather than a topic ban breach, as I don't maintain a list of editors under restrictions in my head. Now that I see the full extent of Wumbolo's topic ban violations, along with the scorched-earth accusations against anyone who dares to confront him, I think a longer block is called for. A BLP topic ban would be advisable as well. Acroterion (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef. Checking more stuff, seriously, who thinks this is good faith in any way at all? Guy (help!) 22:43, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- This really smells like a coded reference to the Pizzagate conspiracy theory. Also, he has now removed this other issue but he had posted a request to his talk page asking people to get multiple editors to let him know if he's violated his topic ban after he's edited an article -- which is really an overly polite WP:IDHT on his topic ban. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:58, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- The reason I bring up the coded reference to Pizzagate is that there's a good deal of overlap between the folks who believe in Pizzagate and QAnon, and, well, the other stuff we've seen from Wumbolo in political articles -- and Pizzagate is the sort of conspiracy theory that's so obviously wrong that it's worth blocking anyone who argues that it's not debunked, like blocking anyone who wants to argue that InfoWars is a reliable source.
- Aaaand he's playing dumb as to why anyone would revdel references to a website where some QAnon-fans and Pizzagaters are posting info about someone they think is the Ukraine Whistleblower.
- If it wouldn't violate his topic ban, I would explicitly ask him if he views Pizzagate as debunked, unproven, plausible, or reality. If his response is anything but "debunked" (including trying to avoid the question) then indefinitely blocking is worthwhile. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef - Enough's enough, At this point Womble's becoming a net negative to the project. –Davey2010Talk 23:07, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef - Enough is too much. Why would you purposely, repeatedly, admittedly vio a TBan – and try to desysop an admin who salted an attempt by them to out a person based upon an internet rumor in an area not only political but pressed by the POTUS, requiring multiple revdels? This isn’t close. Let them ask to return in one year. O3000 (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Not sure if indefinite block worthy Breaking a topic ban, and reposting oversighted material is bad, however--we need to look at the primary reason for doing so. There is a specific name that has over 20 thousand results in Google News search results, and is being covered more and more by reliable sources each passing day. Given the American political scandal that this name is attached to, I expect this trend to continue. Wumbalo mentioned this name in specific contexts with regards to page protection, and tried to bring it up further in arbitration. There is a significant encyclopedic interest in an article -eventually- being created for this individual. I have only taken a simple look at the situation, and am not sure if I'm missing something regarding this name, or not. Tutelary (talk) 02:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Tutelary, definitely not a subject for an encyclopedic article. We have no idea if this person is the whistleblower or not. Reputable news organizations are not spreading the name,[21] because of the whole reason we have whistleblower protections at all! WP:BLPNAME says we don't publish it at al. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Tutelary, the primary reason for what? Disobeying the topic ban or doing so in order to repost oversighted material? Given the timing of his "unretirement" it's pretty likely that this was in fact the main purpose. Guy (help!) 02:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- The primary reason to continue referencing the name. If the name itself is oversighted, I believe that is a step too far, given the encyclopedic interest in the name, and the increasing coverage. It's hard to talk about whether or not it should even be an article if every single mention is oversighted or revdeleted. Which section was this name oversighted under? Tutelary (talk) 03:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Per WP:BLP we need good sources for this, not simply a large number of crap ones. I had a quick look just now, and couldn't find any mention of the name in such sources. If someone believes they have found one, they could simply link the source without needing to mention the name. Further, if Wumbolo had simply once mentioned the name and the stopped when people took issue with it, maybe their actions would be acceptable, but not, as I understand they have done, trying to talk about it all over Wikipedia in a very short space of time, especially not since they are an experience editor who has been warned about issues with their editing related to living persons before. Nil Einne (talk) 03:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- As for your question on the use of suppression, I assume it was done under number 1 "Removal of non-public personal information". Nil Einne (talk) 03:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- The primary reason to continue referencing the name. If the name itself is oversighted, I believe that is a step too far, given the encyclopedic interest in the name, and the increasing coverage. It's hard to talk about whether or not it should even be an article if every single mention is oversighted or revdeleted. Which section was this name oversighted under? Tutelary (talk) 03:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef I had some not-so-good interactions with this user however long ago. This more recent behavior sounds worse. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef Recent activity shows the tone-deaf battle ground behavior continues—for example, see #Acroterion above where Wumbolo asks for an admin to be blocked or desysoped because the admin was removing Wumbolo's BLP-violating edits. Johnuniq (talk) 02:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indef under competency concerns, (although no cban). I think the recent forum shopping attempts at ani and Arbcom in an attempt to get os’ed material restored was already something a newbie would be indeffed for, but considering this absolutely bizarre comment he made over a year ago, it seems he has never understood how forums work on this website. 💵Money💵emoji💵Talk💸Help out at CCI! 04:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment editor has received an indef WP:OSBL by User:TonyBallioni Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Talk:Tiger versus lion might be one of the most tedious walls of text I've witnessed on Wikipedia. In recent days the article and talkpage have become a free-fire zone that has led me to fully protect the article for a day just to stop the rapid-fire reverts and arguing. I've blocked one two editors for attempted outing and aspersions - and the editor who is the target of the aspersions and outing used to be named "Eichman Heydrich" ... Little of this behavior is new to the article, it's been like this for its entire history, and it's probably the biggest original research offender in the encyclopedia. Short of blocking everybody who's edited the article for the last week for edit-warring, I'm at a loss about what to do with the article and the editing environment. Suggestions are welcome, up to and including nuking it all from orbit. Acroterion (talk) 02:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I just scanned the talk page and immediately ran headfirst into a wall. Plus, one of the accounts outed the other there, too, in several places. So more rev/deletion, and perhaps an indef block. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:11, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It's a significant undertaking just tracking down all the outing amid the wordwall. I've warned a longtime editor on that page for that - at least I'm confident that they're sticking to one account. Acroterion (talk) 03:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Its the worst article and equally worst talk page on Wikipedia. It’s survived multiple AfDs by some miracle. The solution to this article and its problems is deletion. For those who don’t feel like reading it, it’s basically big cat fans arguing over which is better. Both the article and the talk. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It looks to be Deftred's contributions just this evening. A limited number, so it isn't too hard to find the outings. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think I've gotten it - both Deftred and what I take to be his sock are blocked.When I'm feeling less exasperated, I might work on an AfD propsal. Acroterion (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Somehow, Acroterion, and not for lack of effort on your part, some of the outing is still encased in a rant there. These guys know a lot about lions and tigers, fighting. Now I'm off to draft a piece on scorpions and tarantulas. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, got it. Thanks for checking. Acroterion (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Please AfD it again. BTW, a Google search on [ Ducks vs. Penguins ] turns up "About 42,600,000 results"... :) --Guy Macon (talk) 03:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Seconding AfD. This article serves no encyclopedic value. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- At least they're both in the same league. Tigers and Lions are in different sports. Acroterion (talk) 03:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I propose we change the article to say
We then ask the WMF to permanently superprotect the article and talk page and archives, and for good measure add an edit filter forbidding any edit mentioning tiger and lion in the same edit. Problem solved! Nil Einne (talk) 10:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)Based on extensive scientific analysis, it has been proven beyond and shred of doubt that in any hypothetical or real fight between a tiger and a lion, the tiger will win. This applies even if it is a badly injured and starving tiger cub the size of a domestic cat and the biggest most dangerous lion that has ever existed. In fact, it has been demonstrated that even a single such tiger cub will be able to defeat the 100 most dangerous lions cooperating in a reasonable fashion. (Not in the "Mook Chivalry" style of fighting made famous as a TV trope where a group will generally engage with a single person one at a time.)
- I propose we change the article to say
- Please AfD it again. BTW, a Google search on [ Ducks vs. Penguins ] turns up "About 42,600,000 results"... :) --Guy Macon (talk) 03:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, got it. Thanks for checking. Acroterion (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Somehow, Acroterion, and not for lack of effort on your part, some of the outing is still encased in a rant there. These guys know a lot about lions and tigers, fighting. Now I'm off to draft a piece on scorpions and tarantulas. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think I've gotten it - both Deftred and what I take to be his sock are blocked.When I'm feeling less exasperated, I might work on an AfD propsal. Acroterion (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It looks to be Deftred's contributions just this evening. A limited number, so it isn't too hard to find the outings. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- The article's a complete joke, a mess of bulletlists of random stuff. Here's an excerpt:
According to the Gettysburg Compiler and The Baltimore Sun (1899), towards the end of the 19th century in India, the Gaekwad of Baroda, that is Sayajirao III,[76][77] arranged a fight in an amphitheater, between a Barbary lion called 'Atlas', from the Atlas Mountains between Algeria and Morocco, and a man-eating Bengal tiger from the Indian region of Shimla, both large and hungry (with their diets reduced before the fight), before an audience of thousands, instead of between an Indian lion and the tiger, as Indian lions were believed to be no match for Bengal tigers.[b] The tiger was more than 10 feet (3.0 metres) long, over 4 feet (120 centimetres) feet at the shoulder, had strong shoulders and long teeth and claws, and was agile. The lion looked taller at the head than the tiger, and had a large mane, legs and paws. The tiger was seen as "the personification of graceful strength and supple energy," whereas the lion was seen as the "embodiment of massive power and adamantine muscle".[64] In the fight, both cats sustained injuries, and although the tiger sometimes retreated from Atlas, it would come back to fight it, and in the end, managed to scratch Atlas to death, though Atlas pushed it off in one final move before dying. The Gaekwad agreed to pay 37,000 rupees, accepted that the tiger was the "King of the Cat Family," decreed that Atlas' body be given a Royal burial, and that the tiger should have a "cage of honour" in the menagerie of Baroda, and decided to prepare the tiger for a battle with a Sierran grizzly bear weighing more than 1,500 lb (680 kilograms). The battle was to happen after the tiger recovered from its wounds.
- That the article's authors are able pass such nonsense on to our readers with a straight face implies a possible CIR problem. We even have an article Atlas_the_Barbary_lion_versus_the_Bengal_tiger_of_Simla reporting this idiocy as straight fact. EEng 11:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
When will it end
At some point soon we need administration to step up and get a handle on your colleagues.Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport.--Moxy 🍁 07:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Despite all of the one-sided personal attacks, WP:HOUNDING, badgering and bad faith that has been occurring against me in the discussion, I have remained calm and civil throughout. There's not much I can do about what another user chooses to type. Not sure why the above is phrased in plural form using the word "colleagues", as I have not engaged in any personal attacks, hounding, badgering or name-calling whatsoever that require "getting a handle on". Hopefully the user who has solely been engaging in these activities against me will calm down. North America1000 07:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Is it okay for someone to call someone else a liar and an idiot? That seems like a PA to me. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 10:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
It is a PA and definitely not ok @anon. Someone needs to muzzle BHG since she's clearly not going to abide by WP:NPA. AryaTargaryen (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)AryaTargaryen
- Muzzle is not the right word. But I agree, something should be done. The question is will anyone have the gumption to do it. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 11:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
It will end when both admins are topic banned from portals. This is absurd. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- I urge anyone interested to actually read Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport.
- The problem there is that User:Northamerica1000 is engaged in a sustained exercise of gaming the system, which includes:
- systematic and repeated misrepresentation of other editors
- repeatedly citing as guidance a page which they themselves asked not be a guideline
- using sneaky and stealthy editing techniques to hide severe POV-pushing
- refusing offers to collaborate on RFCs to resolve susbstantive issues
- repeatedly posting demonstrable falsehoods across multiple discussions (the most of extreme of which led me finally decided to call a spade a spade, and explicitly call them "either a liar or an idiot")
- That MFD is yet another venue for a sustained baiting exercise by NA1K, who has deployed similar techniques many times before. The pattern is that NA1K engages in a sustained pattern of verbosely posting faleshoods, deceptions and failures of reasoning; and then howls "personal attack! hounding!" when called out on their lies and idiocy.
- I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both.
- I have never before seen on Wikipedia any admin attempt to game system as brazenly as NA1K has here:
- call for a Wikipedia guideline to be delisted, and downgraded to a failed proposal
- then cite that same failed proposal in defence of POV-pushing, ... and when challenged on that duplicity, dig deeper trying pompous word-play to create a synonym for "guideline":
schema for advisement
- This is not social media. We are here to build an encyclopedia. That is an intellectual process which requires both honesty and integrity, and the ability to engage in rational discussion. NA1K's conduct repeatedly reveals some sort of severe deficiency of that combination, and it reached its peak at the Transport MFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I made a mistake moving a page
Hello, I nearly finished an article in my own namespace here, but mistakenly moved it to the User page of 'user' and not to the article space; [[22]].--Lirim | Talk 09:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
It appears the article was deleted by an administrator. AryaTargaryen (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)AryaTargaryen
- It's not deleted, it's at the correct name: List of Billboard Top Christian Albums number ones of the 2000s (no comment on whether it's notable, though...). Check before you post. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 11:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Disregarding the hostility in the above comment, i see now i mistakenly assumed the article was deleted when i checked the link Lirim provided.
- My bad. Note to self: Writing a reply on ANI in the early morning is not a wise idea. AryaTargaryen (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)AryaTargaryen
- There's no hostility in my reply, but please note that this notice board is for admins and experienced editors, not editors with a grand total of just over 200 edits, since editors with that little experience simply can't know enough about the inner workings of WP to be able to consistently provide correct answers. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 12:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Tom, get off your high horse and stop the hostility - this forum is for *anyone* to seek admin assistance and/or to try to help. If people make a mistake, how about you just point it out to them civilly and help them learn too? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: Inexperienced editors giving bad advice or wrong answers is a problem here, and in this case the OP had spent many hours on creating an article, but made a very easily made error when moving it, and asked for help here, only to be told by someone who obviously didn't have a clue that the article had been "deleted by an admin"; an answer that would make most new editors simply give up, and never try again (the creator of this article isn't new, but that doesn't matter here, since it could have been a brand new editor...). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 12:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a problem, but your solution stinks. All I'm suggesting is approaching it with friendly and constructive guidance rather than "You're not worthy, go away". Is that really too much to ask? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Thomas.W: until I read your most recent reply I thought your comments were addressing the op when actually they were addressing AryaTargaryen. This clarifies that you were not attacking someone for asking for help, but instead attacking someone for attempting to help. This is marginally less bad, but there was still no need for the lack of civility. Thryduulf (talk) 13:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a bit daft, but I can't see how the simple comment "check before you post" can be seen as being an attack, and the rest of what I posted was simply an explanation for why inexperienced editors shouldn't answer requests for help here... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 13:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- It's not just "check before you post" that's the problem, but that in itself comes across as condescending. The point is that this forum often descends into an embarrasing example of incivility and hostility, and admins and experienced editors should be leading by example. With two very experienced Wikipedians saying pretty much the same thing to you, I think you need to examine what sort of example you want to set. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a bit daft, but I can't see how the simple comment "check before you post" can be seen as being an attack, and the rest of what I posted was simply an explanation for why inexperienced editors shouldn't answer requests for help here... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 13:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: Inexperienced editors giving bad advice or wrong answers is a problem here, and in this case the OP had spent many hours on creating an article, but made a very easily made error when moving it, and asked for help here, only to be told by someone who obviously didn't have a clue that the article had been "deleted by an admin"; an answer that would make most new editors simply give up, and never try again (the creator of this article isn't new, but that doesn't matter here, since it could have been a brand new editor...). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 12:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Tom, get off your high horse and stop the hostility - this forum is for *anyone* to seek admin assistance and/or to try to help. If people make a mistake, how about you just point it out to them civilly and help them learn too? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- There's no hostility in my reply, but please note that this notice board is for admins and experienced editors, not editors with a grand total of just over 200 edits, since editors with that little experience simply can't know enough about the inner workings of WP to be able to consistently provide correct answers. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 12:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- My bad. Note to self: Writing a reply on ANI in the early morning is not a wise idea. AryaTargaryen (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)AryaTargaryen
Portals
I propose the following, which in my view recognises both the scale and disruption of the problem and the sincerity of those involved:
- BrownHairedGirl topic banned from portals for six months for battleground behaviour and incivility.
- Northamerica1000 topic banned from portals for six months for battleground behaviour and gaming the system.
- BrownHairedGirl and Northamerica1000 interaction banned for one year.
- A central RfC to decide the objective criteria for closure of moribund or dormant portals and setting clear expectations for the level of activity required to keep a portal alive, allowing for removal of cruft with less drama and forestalling third-party gaming.
- Addendum: Also a process for gaining consensus before creating a new portal, as uncontrolled creation seems to have been a large part of the root cause.
- A moratorium on portal deletions pending the central RfC.
I think we've all had enough by now. For the avoidance of doubt, the topic ban would also cover the RfC. Guy (help!) 11:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Lemme try to get this clear, Guy. Are you proposing a topic ban on me because I have been "uncivil" to an admin who has been, as you acknowledge, gaming the system, and who has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve the issues? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl, I am applying the standard admin technique of dragging the warring parties apart and trying to impose some order. Please don't go WP:NOTTHEM on us, that is never a good look. Guy (help!) 13:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Lemme try to get this clear, Guy. Are you proposing a topic ban on me because I have been "uncivil" to an admin who has been, as you acknowledge, gaming the system, and who has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve the issues? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Any proposal that wants a moratorium on portal deletions should also be have a moratorium on portal creations. I'll look over this never-ending portal nightmare in terms of ongoing editor behaviour later Nosebagbear (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Nosebagbear, I think we can only ask for status quo ante but I agree we should look at the issue of whether there should be a bar to creations. Guy (help!) 13:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- If this proposal isn't enacted (and I'm not sure it goes far enough in terms of either number of editors or response to their behaviour, but it's a start) the whole mess needs taking to arbcom. I allowed myself to get bullied out of most portal discussions months ago and absolutely nothing about the behaviour of the usual suspects seems to have improved since. Thryduulf (talk) 13:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment For those who've not being following this (such as myself), please could you link to the relevant previous discussions for context/clarity? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:11, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Example RfC agenda
- As a matter of policy, what is the project-focused goal of portals?
- What should be the criteria that define an active portal
- Miniumum number of active editors?
- Minimum number of edits per month?
- Update frequency (i.e. number of updates rather than number of edits per update)?
- Article updates?
- Should we have an anti-gaming criterion?
- Updates by editors who do little other than portal updates across multiple topics?
- Updates by editors new to the portal, that a reasonable person would perceive as gaming (WP:CLUE)?
- What should be the removal process?
- XfD, PROD, CSD?
- How to prevent "school wars" style voting blocks?
- Should there be a bar to creation?
- Should there be a review period for newly related portals, e.g. after 12 months, with a low-bureaucracy removal period if they have not survived the initial enthusiasm?
Feel free to add / amend. Guy (help!) 14:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Editing of Hinduism articles (restore vandalized report)
Anonymous60987766 (talk · contribs) has removed referenced content and made substantial unsourced changes to multiple articles. The only explanation so far has been this [23]. Suggesting a user block, with attention from editors knowledgeable in the subject, as to whether any edits are acceptable. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 13:41, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- This [24] confirms the problem. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 13:53, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Attempted outing
In this edit, it appears User:PiratePride09 is attempting to out another editor. I can't find an outing noticeboard, so reporting it here.Jacona (talk) 14:22, 10 November 2019 (UTC)