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Oldstone James (talk | contribs) |
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::::::I feel this discussion is now coming to a natural end, per [[WP:STICK]]. I suspect that if Oldstone James quietly walks away at this point, and bears in mind the advice given them above, and changes their editing behavior to match, everything should be well. Otherwise, I suspect that someone is going to close this soon by imposing the topic ban. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 15:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
::::::I feel this discussion is now coming to a natural end, per [[WP:STICK]]. I suspect that if Oldstone James quietly walks away at this point, and bears in mind the advice given them above, and changes their editing behavior to match, everything should be well. Otherwise, I suspect that someone is going to close this soon by imposing the topic ban. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 15:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::At the risk of prolonging a discussion that has probably run its course, {{u|Oldstone James}}, your position here is entirely counterproductive if your goal is to continue to volunteer your time at this website. The variety of ''defense'' (such that it is) that you are contributing here is to complain that other people who got here first are also doing bad things. Aside from the obvious [[tu quoque]] cringe-worthy-ness of this argument, it's also been philosophically lampooned in other contexts at Wikipedia with the [[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]] tag. The way Wikipedia disciplinary actions function is that people who make these kinds of arguments get shitcanned on the regular. And anyway, ''Yeah, but they're just as bad!'' is just about as weak an argument you can make... so don't make it. I know it probably frustrates your sense of justice and fair play, but you're really much better off if you just ''let it go'' as The Anome intimates above. [[User:ජපස|jps]] ([[User talk:ජපස|talk]]) 16:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
::::::At the risk of prolonging a discussion that has probably run its course, {{u|Oldstone James}}, your position here is entirely counterproductive if your goal is to continue to volunteer your time at this website. The variety of ''defense'' (such that it is) that you are contributing here is to complain that other people who got here first are also doing bad things. Aside from the obvious [[tu quoque]] cringe-worthy-ness of this argument, it's also been philosophically lampooned in other contexts at Wikipedia with the [[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]] tag. The way Wikipedia disciplinary actions function is that people who make these kinds of arguments get shitcanned on the regular. And anyway, ''Yeah, but they're just as bad!'' is just about as weak an argument you can make... so don't make it. I know it probably frustrates your sense of justice and fair play, but you're really much better off if you just ''let it go'' as The Anome intimates above. [[User:ජපස|jps]] ([[User talk:ජපස|talk]]) 16:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::That's just my position - not an argument. Never said stating this position is a good idea; likewise, never said it would make a good argument: I just pointed out that what Guy Macon described in his comment didn't represent my position at all well. That said, I've already stomached the fact that [[tu quoque]] isn't going to help my case.[[User:Oldstone James|<span style="color:white;background:#21E907"><sup>O</sup></span><span style="color:grey;background:#21E907">l</span><span style="color:#fff;background:#21E907"><sup>J</sup></span><span style="color:grey;background:#21E907">a</span>]] 17:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
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==User requests account cancellation== |
==User requests account cancellation== |
Revision as of 17:00, 17 April 2019
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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User:Moylesy98
Moylesy98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just come off a block for edit warring and has resumed hostilities. Short of an indefinite block, I think that the only way this can be dealt with is by means of an editing restriction:-
"Moylsey98 is permanently prohibited from adding an image to, removing an image from, or changing any image contained in, any article or list."
He may propose additions, removal or changes at talk pages. Any additions, removals or changes may be made by any editor of good standing if there is consensus for same. Any breach of this restriction to be enforced by a block of not less than three months duration. Mjroots (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Moylesy98 has been notified of this discussion Mjroots (talk) 13:30, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- And 5 minutes later they're indef blocked? C'mon give the guy a chance to at least reply!
- I would support this indef block (rather than a TBAN) because it's fundamentally behavioural and failing to see what the rules (do source, do follow consensus, don't edit-war) are, rather than narrow enough to filter. Maybe they can make some case for "OK, I get it, I'll stop" and we could at least try that. But surely they get time to respond, at the very least? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Seriously, I don't see the point. They've been blocked four times this year alone for doing exactly the same thing over and over again, and they clearly haven't understood why they've been blocked. The latest block was for two weeks, and they came back straight away with reverts of the exact same material that got them blocked for edit warring (i.e. replacing good images with their own sub-par ones), with edit-summaries like "Reinstatement following removal by a spammer" and "Deliberate removal of image owing to jealousy". We can only have limited patience with this, I'm afraid. If they come back with an unblock request that addresses the problems, then yes we can try a limited unblock, but they need to understand why they keep being blocked first, and they clearly haven't. Black Kite (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- OK, he's indeffed but has TP access. We can discuss the proposal and it can be made a condition of unblocking. Mjroots (talk) 13:45, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- We should at-least unblock them to make their case here. Blocking a few minutes after talking here is extremely unfair. I would support a block, but give them enough rope, so that they can respond. The Duke 18:17, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- They've just posted an unblock request which is going to be rejected on sight: it's a reasonable case for what they believe to justofy their editing, but it's entirely not an unblock request, as it doesn't address the reason for blocking. As such, yet another blocked editor is just going to have their unblock request refused summarily, leading to yet another angry ex-editor.
- Their "request" still fails to address the underlying problem, and is a complete misunderstanding of how image selection for articles is, or should be, done. As such, it shows no long-term hope for a real solution and unblock here. But we have to at least explain this to them! As it is, we're steaming straight into the typical, and terrible, standard WP response and we need to do better. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Meh, I have difficulty seeing any of this as a real failing on our part. Lots of people have tried to talk to Moylsey98 long before it came to this. I see plenty of non templated comments on their talk page, including from you. Moylsey98 has barely responded (even from looking at their contrib history). They've shown zero real willingless to learn and seriously engage with people to try and understand where they're going wrong. It's not like they've come back and done things slightly differently each time. They've generally just done the exact same thing. By their own admission, the only real reason they've been adding the images is for spam like reasons, they want to promote their own work. As with a number of spammers, their COI means they likely genuinely believe their work is better than anything else, but really there's no reason for the community to waste a lot of time educating them when they're so unwilling to learn. If individual community members want to try and teach them that's fine. But there's zero reason to waste time at ANI on what's a clear cut case. If people are able to teach them on their talk page, they're free to request an unblock and I'm sure some admin will get to it. But it's not something the community should be expected to spend a great deal of time on. Nil Einne (talk) 03:47, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's not forget this is not the first time Moylesy98 has been at ANI. Even given that this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive981#User:Moylesy98 was perhaps not worth responding to, I recall this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1002#Uncivil and threatening comments by User:Moylesy98 on an issue fairly related to what's going on here was at ANI for quite a long time which is also supported by the time stamps. And their block log shows they were unblocked for all of it [1]. And Special:Contributions/Moylesy98 shows a small number of edits during a fair amount of that time. So frankly, we've already given this editor way more latitude and waited more than long enough for them to seriously engage with us than we needed to. They've completely failed to do it any meaningful way, and instead have just continued to spam (by their own admission) in numerous ways. If anyone ever gets through to them then good. But really it's no major failing on our part that we didn't. Nil Einne (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. I'm actually a strong believer that we're way too reluctant to unblock someone to allow them to participate in an AN//I discussion about them. IMO the copying over from talk business is more complicated for everyone than it needs to be. Unless there's good reason to think the editor isn't going to obey the condition, I think we should as a matter or routine on request, unblock someone to allow them to participate in the discussion about them with the understanding it's the only thing they're allowed to do. Any violation of this condition will of course lead to an instant reblock, and is likely to destroy their chances. (And we should perhaps also remind editors that WP:Bludgeoning discussion is likely to harm them.) But in my mind, this isn't really an issue here because 1) No one really seems to think the topic ban proposal as a replacement for the indef is worth it 2) They haven't asked. (This comes up most often with cban appeals.) That said, if a serious proposal did develop and Moylesy98 were to request, I'd support it here as well. Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite - would you be amenable to Nil Einne's suggestion of unblocking in order to participate here? Nil Einne - the reason nobody is addressing my proposal is that they are all arguing over the merits of the block. Mjroots (talk) 06:21, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. I'm actually a strong believer that we're way too reluctant to unblock someone to allow them to participate in an AN//I discussion about them. IMO the copying over from talk business is more complicated for everyone than it needs to be. Unless there's good reason to think the editor isn't going to obey the condition, I think we should as a matter or routine on request, unblock someone to allow them to participate in the discussion about them with the understanding it's the only thing they're allowed to do. Any violation of this condition will of course lead to an instant reblock, and is likely to destroy their chances. (And we should perhaps also remind editors that WP:Bludgeoning discussion is likely to harm them.) But in my mind, this isn't really an issue here because 1) No one really seems to think the topic ban proposal as a replacement for the indef is worth it 2) They haven't asked. (This comes up most often with cban appeals.) That said, if a serious proposal did develop and Moylesy98 were to request, I'd support it here as well. Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- I support an indef block. But only once we've at least tried to explain it and given them a chance to respond. Even if that doesn't work. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- In haste, I may have more time later, but I wanted to comment before this was closed. I am not an admin. I have seen editing from User:Moylesey98 which has lead me to believe that there might be difficulties in both understanding and writing in English. I alluded to it in [2]. They may have difficulty in making an unblock request. A young editor (that is young in development of skills; I am unsure of their age) might become better. A young editor might be understandably proud of a new camera and want to see their images used. I have seen images added by him which I found as good as most, and deserving of a place in articles. I have not time to find them now.SovalValtos (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- No need to rush. The closure made earlier was my fault, and because I didn't realize that the proposal was still ongoing... :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 10:39, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have now found how to see some of User:Moylesey98's image uploads to commons[3]. I think there are images of value. They do not have to be of immediate use and even poor quality images may turn out to be of value in the future when some unsuspected aspect of the image is identified as being of use. I think some of his images may have been denigrated, which could have exacerbated the situation. A few examples in the gallery should give an indication of how this editor's contributions might be of value. If totally blocked their interest in contributing to commons as well might be lost. The lack of competence in other aspects might well persuade admins to block for a while. I would not object if that were the case as much effort has been spent on dealing with this editor's incompetence already.
- No need to rush. The closure made earlier was my fault, and because I didn't realize that the proposal was still ongoing... :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 10:39, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- In haste, I may have more time later, but I wanted to comment before this was closed. I am not an admin. I have seen editing from User:Moylesey98 which has lead me to believe that there might be difficulties in both understanding and writing in English. I alluded to it in [2]. They may have difficulty in making an unblock request. A young editor (that is young in development of skills; I am unsure of their age) might become better. A young editor might be understandably proud of a new camera and want to see their images used. I have seen images added by him which I found as good as most, and deserving of a place in articles. I have not time to find them now.SovalValtos (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's not forget this is not the first time Moylesy98 has been at ANI. Even given that this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive981#User:Moylesy98 was perhaps not worth responding to, I recall this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1002#Uncivil and threatening comments by User:Moylesy98 on an issue fairly related to what's going on here was at ANI for quite a long time which is also supported by the time stamps. And their block log shows they were unblocked for all of it [1]. And Special:Contributions/Moylesy98 shows a small number of edits during a fair amount of that time. So frankly, we've already given this editor way more latitude and waited more than long enough for them to seriously engage with us than we needed to. They've completely failed to do it any meaningful way, and instead have just continued to spam (by their own admission) in numerous ways. If anyone ever gets through to them then good. But really it's no major failing on our part that we didn't. Nil Einne (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Meh, I have difficulty seeing any of this as a real failing on our part. Lots of people have tried to talk to Moylsey98 long before it came to this. I see plenty of non templated comments on their talk page, including from you. Moylsey98 has barely responded (even from looking at their contrib history). They've shown zero real willingless to learn and seriously engage with people to try and understand where they're going wrong. It's not like they've come back and done things slightly differently each time. They've generally just done the exact same thing. By their own admission, the only real reason they've been adding the images is for spam like reasons, they want to promote their own work. As with a number of spammers, their COI means they likely genuinely believe their work is better than anything else, but really there's no reason for the community to waste a lot of time educating them when they're so unwilling to learn. If individual community members want to try and teach them that's fine. But there's zero reason to waste time at ANI on what's a clear cut case. If people are able to teach them on their talk page, they're free to request an unblock and I'm sure some admin will get to it. But it's not something the community should be expected to spend a great deal of time on. Nil Einne (talk) 03:47, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- We should at-least unblock them to make their case here. Blocking a few minutes after talking here is extremely unfair. I would support a block, but give them enough rope, so that they can respond. The Duke 18:17, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- OK, he's indeffed but has TP access. We can discuss the proposal and it can be made a condition of unblocking. Mjroots (talk) 13:45, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Seriously, I don't see the point. They've been blocked four times this year alone for doing exactly the same thing over and over again, and they clearly haven't understood why they've been blocked. The latest block was for two weeks, and they came back straight away with reverts of the exact same material that got them blocked for edit warring (i.e. replacing good images with their own sub-par ones), with edit-summaries like "Reinstatement following removal by a spammer" and "Deliberate removal of image owing to jealousy". We can only have limited patience with this, I'm afraid. If they come back with an unblock request that addresses the problems, then yes we can try a limited unblock, but they need to understand why they keep being blocked first, and they clearly haven't. Black Kite (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
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Defiant and Earl of Mount Edgcumbe at Tyseley
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Hunslet 0-6-0 no 3696 "Respite"
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Andania's builders plate
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Avonside 0-6-0 no 1883
To clarify for you, the problem isn't that Dave occasionally takes good enough photos that are, or might be, useful. The problem is that he doesn't seem to know what he's doing, so he takes many more poor quality photos than the accidental good ones. But then he persists in insisting that "his" photos, are included in articles, regardless of whether they are better than others. If they happen to be better than others, we should include them at least until better ones are available. But more often than not they're not, and we therefore shouldn't. If you want a few examples, take a look at these:
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Composition wtf?
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shutter speed too slow! You need 1/500 at least.
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horrible shadow across the subject which is in the middle of the frame
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overexposed mess
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Composition - subject in the middle of the frame
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Distracting snowstorm
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Overexposed sky, odd composition
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A mess of nonsense in front of your subject.
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It's mostly a tree!
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subject in the middle
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too dark
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This is a photo of... nothing in particular.
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Yes, take photos of the crowds, though this is not really of them nor of the engine, which is placed too centrally. Also, sky overexposure.
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subject in the middle, overexposure...
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Overexposed sky, and top of firebox.
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Taken from the side in shadow;
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meh
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Subject in the middle of the frame, exposure problems from bright sky, subject in shadow.
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The sky is overexposed in this one but it is illustrative and should be used in the article.
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This is OK
He's got a Flickr account where there's pages and pages of this stuff. Tony May (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's not get all steamed up about this. EEng 08:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- tldr - I completely lost track. Atsme Talk 📧 04:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Shame, you missed vital points.SovalValtos (talk) 07:30, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- I want to express my disappointment at the limited participation. EEng 14:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Now, now let's not derail this discussion. --Blackmane (talk) 02:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, that's enough, this conversation terminates here. All change please, all change. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Now, now let's not derail this discussion. --Blackmane (talk) 02:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I want to express my disappointment at the limited participation. EEng 14:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Shame, you missed vital points.SovalValtos (talk) 07:30, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- tldr - I completely lost track. Atsme Talk 📧 04:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I am not an admin, just an editor who has come across User:Moylesy98. Please could someone explain what more is required here in the way of comment/proposals/action for progress to be made, as progress seems to have stalled?SovalValtos (talk) 20:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- User:Black Kite has indeffed the user, which seems to be a reasonable solution to the problem. --DBigXrayᗙ 06:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Per the discussion on Moylesy98's talk page, Black Kite is amenable to an unblock with the condition of the editing restriction I proposed as a condition of unblocking. Now that we've finished arguing about the merits of the block, perhaps we can now discuss my proposed editing restriction. Mjroots (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- In this edit [4] the question of WP:COMPETENCE was first raised. I was reluctant to do it before but I agree that is an issue, particularly concerning 'the ability to communicate with other editors and abide by consensus'. There are concerns with the other three competencies listed in What is meant by "Competence is required"? A restriction on changing images would only be addressing one symptom of the problem. More is needed. Would it be possible to limit him to editing talk pages, so that he could suggest article edits?SovalValtos (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Per the discussion on Moylesy98's talk page, Black Kite is amenable to an unblock with the condition of the editing restriction I proposed as a condition of unblocking. Now that we've finished arguing about the merits of the block, perhaps we can now discuss my proposed editing restriction. Mjroots (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Weak Support: Mjroots edit restriction. But real concerns there will be a difference of views over something or other that will soon escalate into Moylesy98's simply being blocked again (hence weak). I'm not 100% convinced from the discussion on Moylesy98's talk page that they are a mindset that will not end up in a further problem, but I think there has been some progress. I feel interactions between Moylesy98 and Tony May have high risk of escalating to a ban/block for Moylesy98 (I've thought that for a long time .... while the issues arising from Moylesy98's constributions are not specific or restricted to Tony May it seems likely it s an interaction with Tony would likely be the part of the lead up to a further.... voluntary IBAN here would be great but possibly not practical or workable). I don't know if a restriction on the number of articles/images edited in a period would also help. I'll disclose I've entered into a discussion with Tony may on an article this morning though I actually had drafted (and lost) a somewhat similar response here about two days ago. I've also been watching this evolve since at least beginning of March. I do hope Moylesy98 can see we are trying to be helpful but I am so concerned of the risk of a further block/ban Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Djm-leighpark I also have doubts re this issue. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Tony May has been told not to change images placed in articles by Moylesey98, and as far as I know is adhering to the instruction. Whether an IBAN between the two is needed is probably better discussed separately. Mjroots (talk) 08:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: Discretionary sanctions for all discussions about portals
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Look at #Northamerica1000 disruption at MfD and #Legacypac and portals on this page, WP:AN#Thousands of portals, the hundred or so portal nominations currently at MfD, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Portal issues (which is heading towards being declined) various other discussions linked in those threads and it is clear that something needs to done to stop this getting even further out of hand. I suggest that community discretionary sanctions for all discussions about portals (including but not limited to MfD) is a simple and necessary first step. Specific restrictions on specific editors can then be placed as needed with much less drama than at present.
Note to everybody please keep this discussion on topic. It is not the place to discuss the merits or otherwise of portals, the merits or otherwise of portal MfDs, portal speedy deletion, portal prods, etc, etc. It is also not the place to discuss specific incidents and/or specific users (use existing sections or start new ones for this), it is intended solely for discussion about discretionary sanctions for the topic area. Proposals for and discussion of specific sanctions to be applied if sanctions are authorised should also not take place in this thread. Thryduulf (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, at this point at least - there are a fair few negative discussions, but I don't think there's been sufficient attempt made to handle the disruptive conversations using the regular means (I suspect the prevalence of experienced editors has discouraged stricter de-escalation beyond conversation (which is a great first step, but clearly not enough at this point)). Until standard conduct review methods such as ANI have been shown, to a clear and convincing level, to not work then I don't feel we should escalate to DS - which are frequently overused and an absolute nightmare to ever get rid of. With regards to breadth, it's a relatively small group of editors throughout, rather than this absolutely hoard of disruptive editors that require a shoot first, review later policy. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Nosebagbear: Would you then care to make an attempt to handle the ongoing disruption using the usual means because nothing that anybody else has actually tried has worked so far. Thryduulf (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as an overreaction which would not even need to be suggested if all the major parties involved turned off their PCs for 24 hours; with less WP:BLUDGEONing of each other and other commentators, preferably. ——SerialNumber54129 17:21, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support for 45 days (or other similar range of between 30 and 90 days). The purpose of GS/DS is to empower administrators to take actions to benefit the encyclopedia which might otherwise be difficult to impossible to do. As someone who doesn't see much value behind Portals but also has a "hey I'm already weird because I edit wikipedia and even among these weirdos I'm weird because of my niche" live and let-live attitude I'd welcome a chance for community discussions to play-out and consensus to form. It seemed, at least from my casual observations, that things had cooled a little when the ARC was filed but as it has become clearer that this would be declined (which I think is the right thing for ArbCOM to have done) it seems that the temperature is heating back up. It further seems from the threads I've observed at ARC, AN, and ANI (as well as the occasional talk page) that it's the same players going at each other time and time again. A timelimited GS would hopefully allow some neutral administrators the leeway to help cool the temperature back down so there is space for editors who care about Wikipedia but cannot muster the passion of a thousand burning suns around Portals and/or their deletions to (re)join in and help guide us to a conclusion but also then not continue to stick around forever. Because after we (hopefully) reach a point where consensus has been reached, there will be alignment about the way forward even if there's not complete agreement. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I haven't seen widespread disruption as yet. The discussion is getting long and tedious, but being long and tedious is not sanctionable. --Jayron32 18:12, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose No admins will be sanctioned without a long ArbComm case where every benefit will be given the Admin, meanwhile DS will dangle a sword over the head of ordinary users who would be subject to immediate restrictions or block without discussion. DS is just another path for the proposer to get what they failed to get with complaints at ANi and ArbComm. Legacypac (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment If you liked the Infobox Wars, you'll love the Portal Crusades. EEng 01:00, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment This seems like a permanent solution for a temporary problem. With the discussion on portals spread out over so many pages, I think this adds an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. I'll be the first to admit that the issue of portals has brought out less than ideal behavior by some editors but I think this can be handled wiith blocks for regular disruptive or tendentious editing, if this is called for. Liz Read! Talk! 01:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose without any indication what kind of discretionary sanctions the proposer has in mind in which situations. Would too many nominations be sanctionable? Too many !votes which don't match the end result? Repeating arguments, already debunked in one or two MfDs, in other MfDs? !Votes without "proper" argumentation? It's unclear which problems the proposer is trying to tackle here. Fram (talk) 08:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fram I'm clearly on a fairly small island with Thryduulf in seeing benefit for this so let me give a go at answering your questions: the problem that GS would try to tackle is general disruption to the project caused by editors who are fighting, as EEng says, the Portal Crusades. So for one disruptive editor the answer might be a limit on MfD nominations per week. For another it might be that they may not initate/comment at ANI about portals related behavior. For a third it might be a more typical behavior warning. Essentially it's appropriate sanctions ala User:Awilley/Discretionary sanctions. The goal should be to decrease the temperature and allow the project to come up to alignment for a way forward with Portals. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, I have read and re-read the discussions at both AN and ANI, and from what I've gleaned, NA1K has done nothing wrong; certainly not anything even remotely considered unbecoming of an admin. She is indeed a creator of portals - many of which represent excellent work - and has also demonstrated -0- opposition to the deletion/nomination of any portal that fails to meet inclusion criteria; therefore, not a steadfast inclusionist or deletionist as what we've seen in the infobox wars. With regards to behavior, I have never known NA1K to be either impolite or refuse/deny any editor an opportunity to openly discuss an issue in the proper venue. What I've gleaned about Legacypac is that he appears to be focused on the clean-up and deletion of portals, a large number of which resulted from a brief episode of mass creation that has since been addressed. Quite frankly, the evidence/argument he has presented against NA1K simply doesn't support his steadfast position. Based on my experiences, it seems out of character for Legacypac, and it saddens me that 2 highly productive editors are at odds over issues that can be easily resolved with a bit of productive collaboration at the proper venues. I remain cautiously optimistic that Legacypac will step back long enough to realize what a mental strain and absolute time sink this entire incident has been, and will turn his focus to other areas of the project where his contributions are much needed and appreciated, such as AfC/NPP. It's time to let others handle the portal situation for a while. Atsme Talk 📧 14:02, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fram I'm clearly on a fairly small island with Thryduulf in seeing benefit for this so let me give a go at answering your questions: the problem that GS would try to tackle is general disruption to the project caused by editors who are fighting, as EEng says, the Portal Crusades. So for one disruptive editor the answer might be a limit on MfD nominations per week. For another it might be that they may not initate/comment at ANI about portals related behavior. For a third it might be a more typical behavior warning. Essentially it's appropriate sanctions ala User:Awilley/Discretionary sanctions. The goal should be to decrease the temperature and allow the project to come up to alignment for a way forward with Portals. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Good God no. Never in the history of Wikipedia have discretionary sanctions "decreased the temperature"; they just increase the toxicity of already-toxic issues by forcing disputes to fester because people are afraid to comment. If an editor is being disruptive then treat them as we would any other disruptive editor. To hammer home a point that hasn't been hammered enough here, this is not an important issue since 99.99% of readers never see a portal; yes, malformed portals are a nuisance and need to be culled and yes, the mass creation constituted intentional disruption, but hardly anyone will ever see the malformed portals and I'd like to think nobody would be stupid enough to try to restart the mass creation. ‑ Iridescent 20:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- No, per Iridescent. The intention is good, the plan of execution is not. Everybody involved in this mess needs to wind down the aggression and combative attitudes that have made it so much more unpleasant than it needs to be, and instead work towards resolving it in the quickest, easiest and most amicable way possible. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose but what if we topic ban all editors from discussing portal-related user conduct on any page other than WP:PortalFight2019, enforceable by a 24hr first-time no-warning block by any uninvolved admin? Not a joke suggestion. Leviv ich 22:58, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Portal_MFD_Results may help Legacypac (talk) 10:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Unnecessary, per above. SemiHypercube 🎂 13:08, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Support - A few editors need to be topic-banned from portal discussions. ArbCom said that the community was handling the portal issues, so the community should handle the portal issues in the same way as the ArbCom would have, by empowering administrators to take draconian action. Strong support. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:50, 6 April 2019 (UTC)- Comment - The Original Poster of this is Thryduulf, who is an advocate for portals. I am a strong critic of portals. But we agree that sometimes a Gordian knot needs to be cut. (Yes, the tool that is used to cut a Gordian knot draws blood, but that sometimes minimizes total injuries.) Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - per Iridescent. Atsme Talk 📧 21:52, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Iridescent per Levivich's earnest suggestion, but strong support for their oppose per cygnis insignis, and McClenon's support of Thryduulf's original proposal. And my axe! Insincerely, cygnis insignis 22:13, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
- Something needs to be done. I'm not sure ArbCom sanctions are necessarily needed at this point, because a topic ban as suggested by Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) might be sufficient. We really do need better guidelines on what qualifies a portal for deletion, and then purge the ones that don't fit and update the ones that do. Something that stops the portal crusades in the short term will be desperately needed... SportingFlyer T·C 01:12, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Something needs to be done indeed. There are many people here saying that discretionary sanctions are nor required because the usual processes are sufficient. However this requires that people actually engage with the usual processes - since I started this thread there have been at least two more ANI threads related to portal issues that have not had sufficient engagement by uninvolved admins for anything to actually result, and those listed at the top are also still open, tacitly permitting the disruptive behavior to continue. Thryduulf (talk) 08:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Doing something at random has no chances to improve anything. Only doing some right things could do that. First point that needs some right thing. The Portal:Dangun is a just created 2,857 bytes page. But it's deletion will not delete 2,857 bytes of information. To create this marvelous portal from scratch, only the 14 bytes incantation: {{subst:bpsp}} were needed. Therefore deleting the content-less portals will not delete bytes of information, but exactly nothing ( bytes of information). What to do with the repetitive clamors about don't kill our precious bytes ? Second point that needs some right thing. Many SPP=Single Purpose Portals seem very similar in their intents to these SPA=Single Purpose Accounts that are chased across the wiki. I don't think we have to try to provide a commercial advantage to KFC versus McDonalds or conversely. For the present, these portals score 448 versus 199 views per month (probably most of them from the deletion discussions): rather ridiculous than COI... but big holes start by small ones. Pldx1 (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Mass-created portals based on a single navbox there is a single MfD where over 2600 portals are nominated for deletion in a single discussion. If there was ever an attempt at fait accompli this is it. It is claimed that all of them meet a criterion set out in the discussion but it is not possible to verify this and given the track record in this area, I am not able to trust without verification. Thryduulf (talk) 13:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf, it is indeed possible to verify them, because as I promised in discussion at MFD, I have described in detail the process by which I made the list, complete with the code for the AWB module I used. The process is set out at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Mass-created portals based on a single navbox/Selection process. The AWB module which I used is at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Mass-created portals based on a single navbox/AWB module. As you will see there, I have asked for others to verify the list. You are of course very welcome to test it yourself, and I hope you do so.
- I note that as usual, you have made no substantive argument to make against the rationale for deletion. You neither defend nor reject the deletion rationale. Instead, you object to process solely on the basis of your assumption of bad faith. One way or another, you object to every single process used or proposed for cleaning up the portalspam.
- And as usual, there is the bucketloads of ABF and smears you which deployed even at the Arbcom case request.
- The claim of fait accompli is a risible piece of your usual WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct. A group of pages has been nominated for deletion on the basis of clearly set out shared criteria. Editors are free to decide whether they support deletion on those criteria, so there is no more fait accompli than in any other XFD nomination.
- The funniest bit of all this, is that you proposed discretionary sanctions. That is truly hilarious. Given your repeated misconduct in smearing and maligning the editors who work on cleaning up the portalspam, you'd be near the top of the list for any sanctions applied. Luckily for you, your proposal is going nowhere. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The biggest fait accompli being, of course, the mass creation of something clearly inapproproate and then a refusal to assis in the clear up. Happy days indeed. ——SerialNumber54129 13:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The biggest waste of time is having to explain multiple times in every discussion that just because many portals were created without consensus does not indicate a need to delete them all as quickly as possible, does not create a need to ignore consensus, and most prominently does not mean two wrongs make a right. Thryduulf (talk) 13:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you have to explain something in every discussion, whatever you're explaining does not have consensus. Leviv ich 23:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I only have to repeat things because those who feel that the sky is in danger of falling in if these are not deleted asap (a slight exaggeration, but at times it doesn't really feel that way) did not repeat things based on the same assumptions that very clearly do not have consensus - principally that there is a deadline, that these portals are actively harmful, and that because something was created without explicit consensus explicit consensus is not required to delete it. Every discussion to date has resulted in exactly none of these achieving widespread agreement (let alone consensus), yet almost every day there is a new action, proposal or comment based on at least one of them being a statement of unarguable fact. Thryduulf (talk) 09:17, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you have to explain something in every discussion, whatever you're explaining does not have consensus. Leviv ich 23:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The biggest waste of time is having to explain multiple times in every discussion that just because many portals were created without consensus does not indicate a need to delete them all as quickly as possible, does not create a need to ignore consensus, and most prominently does not mean two wrongs make a right. Thryduulf (talk) 13:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- No one does
have to say [the same thing] every day
; but when one feels one has too, it's pure, distilled, unadulterated WP:BLUDGEON :D ——SerialNumber54129 13:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)- Thryduulf - I understand your frustration but my familiarity with imposed DS (and there is no denying DS and AE can be highly problematic) raises justifiable concern that the proposed resolution may create a worse nightmare than simply undoing what caused the problem in the first place. Atsme Talk 📧 16:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- No one does
- Oppose Completely unnecessary. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:17, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose An un-needed proposal, which would only increase drama. The only possible benefit of it is that it would very likely lead to discretionary sanctions against the proposer Thryduulf, whose long stream of assumptions of bad faith and unevidenced smears against other editors have repeatedly poisoned the discussions. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose This isn't the way, and
the naughty stepdiscretionary sanctions would probably only serve to cause further polarisation and disharmony. I am so sad that what was last year's common sense community recognition that Portals were of value and merit has somehow turned into a Pyrrhic victory. It is such a shame that experienced and competent editors can't all work more sensibly and cooperatively for the common good of this encyclopaedia. That we are even talking about DS is quite an indictment of our behaviour over this issue. How must this look from the outside, I wonder? Nick Moyes (talk) 00:36, 10 April 2019 (UTC) - Portal? What are they? Don't think I've ever seen one. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - I have struck my support above because I have re-thought the issue. On the one hand, discretionary sanctions could be imposed on the portal platoon of editors who are recklessly creating portals that are broken and need deleting. However, the community has shown that it is capable of dealing with reckless portal creation without DS. On the other hand, in portal deletion discussions, the point has been made that discretionary sanctions are never imposed on administrators. The current conflict over portal deletion involves disruptive activity by an administrator supporting the creation and retention of portals, User:Thryduulf, and one non-administrator, User:Legacypac, who is nominating portals for deletion and expanding MFD nominations in a way that confuses and gums up the debate. Discretionary sanctions would, in practice, only be applied to one non-administrator who is trying in a sloppy and frantic manner to clean up the portal mess. The playing field is already unfairly on the side of retaining unsound portals, in spite of the valiant efforts of administrators User:BrownHairedGirl and User:Fram, who need the community's support. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: A few points of order are necessary here: discretionary sanctions can be and are applied to admins when needed. I support the creation and retention of some portals, and support the deletion of others - please stop repeatedly mischaracterising my position in nearly every discussion. I have never (attempted) to use ANI as a weapon or anything of the sort. Finally, the contributions of BHG, Fram and yourself have been a mixture of helpful and unhelpful. Thryduulf (talk) 13:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, User:Thryduulf - It is satisfactory to me that you consider the actions of BHG, Fram, and myself to be a mixture of helpful and unhelpful. I see that as meaning that we disagree primarily on content issues. I consider your actions to be a mixture of helpful and unhelpful, although I consider them more unhelpful. I consider the actions of User:TheTranshumanist to be entirely unhelpful, and I think that is also true of a few others, but have not assessed their conduct in depth. But who do you want to use the DS against other than Legacypac (noticing that BHG is losing patience with him)? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- It's not a matter of "using DS against" people - it's not a battlefield (no matter how much us vs them language some people employ), and even if this proposal had been successful it would not be me implementing them. Discretionary sanctions would be there for uninvolved administrators to deploy as they see fit, that might be removing or restricting one or more users from one or more discussions (which could equally be me as anyone else it was felt I was the one being disruptive), but equally it might be more general - limiting the number of concurrent discussions for example. Thryduulf (talk) 09:34, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, User:Thryduulf - It is satisfactory to me that you consider the actions of BHG, Fram, and myself to be a mixture of helpful and unhelpful. I see that as meaning that we disagree primarily on content issues. I consider your actions to be a mixture of helpful and unhelpful, although I consider them more unhelpful. I consider the actions of User:TheTranshumanist to be entirely unhelpful, and I think that is also true of a few others, but have not assessed their conduct in depth. But who do you want to use the DS against other than Legacypac (noticing that BHG is losing patience with him)? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: A few points of order are necessary here: discretionary sanctions can be and are applied to admins when needed. I support the creation and retention of some portals, and support the deletion of others - please stop repeatedly mischaracterising my position in nearly every discussion. I have never (attempted) to use ANI as a weapon or anything of the sort. Finally, the contributions of BHG, Fram and yourself have been a mixture of helpful and unhelpful. Thryduulf (talk) 13:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - What ought to be done should be to restrict User:Thryduulf from using WP:ANI as a battleground for allegations against critics of portals. However, the ArbCom has declined at this time to hear the case, and the case against Enigmaman really is more urgent. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Acupuncture: not sure what to do here
- Middle 8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Roxy the dog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Acupuncture (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
I have two questions about this edit/revert[5][6]
and about these two talk page discussions:[7][8]
Question #1: Is it true that according to the RfC cited, It is impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture? Is there something that needs to be done about Middle 8's editing of Acupuncture, or should I advise Roxy and JzG to stop questioning Middle 8's editing of Acupuncture?
Question#2: If something needs to be done here, is this something that should be discussed at ANI, or should I go to WP:AE?
I don't know what the right thing to do here is.
Possibly related:
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Standard discretionary sanctions.
- User:Middle 8/COI
- Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 139#2nd RfC: Do alternative medicine practitioners have a conflict of interest?
--Guy Macon (talk) 18:00, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's actually fairly straightforward - the RfC said "Do practitioners of alternative medicine ... have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing their field of practice? - in other words, do they automatically have a COI - this was opposed. It did not say "Can practitioners of alternative medicine ...", because clearly, yes they still can, depending on what and how they're editing. Indeed the RfC close specifically said this - "Editors are reminded that any role or relationship outside of Wikipedia may undermine their primary role here of furthering the interests of the encyclopaedia and that editing articles directly in such situations is strongly discouraged.". Black Kite (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Should Middle 8 be requested to not make the claims he makes on User:Middle 8/COI and on the two talk pages I cited above? Should I withdraw this ANI report and bring up the question of whether Middle 8 has a COI at WP:COIN? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- An editor's on-wiki conduct bears on problems like TE and ADVOCACY, not COI. Per EXTERNALREL and the recent RfC clarifying same, COI arises from an editor's external relationships "within their field of expertise" (e.g. The Who's manager has a COI for The Who but not band manager). Otherwise we'd be seeing COI tags and COI/N cases with lots of professional fields. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 23:56, 7 April 2019 (UTC); edit for clearer example, 00:21, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't want to re-litigate something that has been the topic of one Arbcom case, at least two RfCs and a boatload of talk page discussions (ANI deals with user behavior, not article content), but I would like to address Middle 8's "it isn't a COI at all and thus I am not guilty of any COI violation" argument. The counterargument (which may be something Arbcom needs to rule on -- I still would like advice on that) is that our band manager article doesn't contain anything remotely resembling the "Acupuncture is a pseudoscience because the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge" claim that is currently in our accupunture article. If our band manager article said that bands that only pretend to have a band manager work just as well and make just as much money as bands that have them then the band manager for The Who shouldn't edit that article. The key here is that Middle 8, like all acupuncturists, suffers direct financial harm from the fact that our acupuncture article documents through WP:MEDRS-compliant sources that it doesn't matter where you stick the needles in, and that it doesn't even matter whether you stick the needles in -- the outcome is the same. Direct and personal financial harm caused by the content of a Wikipedia article equals a clear conflict of interest regarding that article. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- You already made those exact same reasonable arguments at the RFC (right down to the band manager example), where they were duly considered alongside other reasonable arguments. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 02:41, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- That RfC was about whether alternative medicine practitioners in general have a conflict of interest. This ANI report is about whether you personally have a conflict of interest, and was triggered by you repeatedly claiming that the RfC in question had a result of "It is impossible for Middle 8 to have a COI regarding acupuncture". And you were the one who brought up the band manager argument. Did you really expect such an argument to stand unchallenged? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:11, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry if you're having difficulty extrapolating from the general case to a specific one. Please see my comment here. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 04:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, good, give a pointer to a place where you tried to explain basic logic to a PhD mathematician after they corrected you. Brilliant. The RfC as decided cannot possibly settle the question of whether any particular individual has a COI. (Although probably at this point you should be blocked for tendentiousness and wikilawyering.) --JBL (talk) 19:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're not wrong about negation, you just picked the wrong statement to negate. Take the heat down a notch, please, and see my reply below ("If A, then B"). addendum: No, the RfC can't say that a given editor has no COI of any kind, but it can and does say that the principle that profession doesn't cause COI generalizes to CAM professions. This, as far as I can tell, is what Guy Macon disputes: he thinks I might have a COI because acupuncture (.... repeat arguments from RfC). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 20:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC); fixed 20:50, 8 April 2019 (UTC), 20:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC), 21:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC); addendum 21:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Anyway, this isn't the right venue to (re)litigate my putative COI -- COI/N is. The "is it impossible" issue is really a red herring (the article tag being minor) -- the main question IMO is whether am I being accused of COI, and why, and whether in light of the RfC result it's even proper to do so. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 09:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're not wrong about negation, you just picked the wrong statement to negate. Take the heat down a notch, please, and see my reply below ("If A, then B"). addendum: No, the RfC can't say that a given editor has no COI of any kind, but it can and does say that the principle that profession doesn't cause COI generalizes to CAM professions. This, as far as I can tell, is what Guy Macon disputes: he thinks I might have a COI because acupuncture (.... repeat arguments from RfC). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 20:49, 8 April 2019 (UTC); fixed 20:50, 8 April 2019 (UTC), 20:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC), 21:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC); addendum 21:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, good, give a pointer to a place where you tried to explain basic logic to a PhD mathematician after they corrected you. Brilliant. The RfC as decided cannot possibly settle the question of whether any particular individual has a COI. (Although probably at this point you should be blocked for tendentiousness and wikilawyering.) --JBL (talk) 19:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry if you're having difficulty extrapolating from the general case to a specific one. Please see my comment here. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 04:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- That RfC was about whether alternative medicine practitioners in general have a conflict of interest. This ANI report is about whether you personally have a conflict of interest, and was triggered by you repeatedly claiming that the RfC in question had a result of "It is impossible for Middle 8 to have a COI regarding acupuncture". And you were the one who brought up the band manager argument. Did you really expect such an argument to stand unchallenged? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:11, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- As it applies to this instance, would it be fair to state the RfC question as, "Do acupuncturists have a conflict of interest with regard to Acupuncture?" (Acupuncture being "content describing their field of practice".) Leviv ich 18:31, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- Simply having a profession (doctor, engineer, needle poker) doesn't create a COI for that profession, including CAM's -- that's how I read the RfC. And remember, COI by definition comes from one's roles off-wiki, not from one's edits. So I can't imagine any other way one could have a COI for their (or any) broad professional area, can you? If I'm wrong, then I retract my assertion that it's impossible. But I maintain that that COI tag doesn't belong on any article about a profession, and that being an acupuncturist doesn't give me a COI for acupuncture. I really thought that RfC laid such issues to rest, and that we could refocus on content, not contributors. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 01:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Just get an admin or two to tell me that your interpretation of the RfC is correct, and I will gladly switch to telling Roxy and JzG to stop complaining when you make edits like these[9][10],[11][12] Clearly neither of them agrees that you don't have a COI. I am fine with telling them to stop accusing you of having a COI and I am fine with telling you not to edit pages where you have a COI, but please don't expect me to decide which to do simply because an acupuncturist tells me which he thinks to be correct. You are hardly unbiased. There is nothing wrong with me asking what to do in this situation, so please stop implying that there is.[13] I will get an authoritative answer, either here or from Arbcom. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- This seems like IDHT. You already have a clear and authoritative answer from the RfC (which was closed by three uninvolved, experienced admins). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 04:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- ...and doesn't say what you have repeatedly claimed that it says. Don't forget that part. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- If it doesn't mean that simply being an acu'ist doesn't confer a COI, then Aristotle was wrong. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 06:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I've already pointed out to you elsewhere, the negation of "X is always true" is "X is sometimes not true", not "X is never true". This is, literally, a basic failure of logic, and the fact that you repeat the error after being corrected reflects extremely poorly on you. --JBL (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, JBL, it's "If A, then B" ("If I practice a CAM profession, then that causes a COI for that CAM profession"), the negation of which is "A and not B" ("I practice a CAM profession and that does not cause a COI for that CAM profession"). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 20:42, 8 April 2019 (UTC); improved wording 21:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Eh, who cares. We are talking about two edits about an edit notice that no one has probably even read. If it stays or goes who cares really? Other than drama what is the point of this and why did you ping JzG? If you have an issue then take in to AE.AlmostFrancis (talk) 02:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I pinged JzG because, if the admins here or Arbcom say that Middle 8 doesn't have a COI, JzG and Roxy are the ones who I will be telling to stop saying that he does. Likewise, if the admins here or Arbcom say that Middle 8 does have a COI, I will be telling him not to edit pages where he has a COI. So far no admin has advised me to close this and go to AE, but I am perfectly willing to do that. I just want to do the right thing. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- What makes you think any of the people involved need your input? You already opened an ill advised RFC that wasted countless hours and ended in the obvious conclusion. If you want to do something then do it but this is just a drama magnet, and you don't need permission to go to AE.AlmostFrancis (talk) 04:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Guy, don’t bother to tell me that M8 has no COI. I won’t believe you. Roxy, the dog. wooF 14:28, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I haven't completely decided, but I am leaning towards Middle 8 having a COI. Clearly you, I, and JzG all think Middle 8 has a COI, and the existence of an RfC that essentially says that alt med practitioners don't automatically have COIs has not convinced any of the three of us that Middle 8 doesn't have a COI. Of course Middle 8 thinks that it should convince us, but he would say that, wouldn't he?
- That being said, if I were to see several admins (or Arbcom) tell us to stop saying that Middle 8 has a COI then we need to abide by that decision whether we agree or not. It doesn't look like that is going to happen here, so if the admins continue to be silent on the question I intend to take it to AE as something that ANI is unable to resolve. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think, as I said above, the fact of whether Middle8 has a COI here is completely dependent on his edits. If he's making neutral sourced edits then it doesn't matter anyway. If he's making disruptive or anti-consensus edits that show a clear POV then he may well be said to have a COI. But more importantly in this case, he should not be removing the edit notice because COI editors - whoever they are - should not be editing any article that they have a COI on; this one is no different. Not only that, but (as I quoted above) the RfC that Middle8 is using to justify removing the notice actually backed up this fact. Black Kite (talk) 18:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't follow: could you specify which fact you say the RfC backed up, and why? And again, you're mistaken re how COI arises. It doesn't come from biased edits. It comes from one's off-wiki roles. See WP:COINOTBIAS. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 20:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think we're focusing on the wrong thing. What behavior of Middle 8 is being contested here? Which edits were problematic? What has been done in response to those edits? Has Middle 8 showed a continued pattern of bad editing after being warned about such? Your focus on the conflict of interest is a distraction. The focus should be on good or bad editing behavior, and that's it. The minutiae of the COI policies are a distraction, so focus instead on the behavior. --Jayron32 18:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Agree. Paul August ☎ 00:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'd love it if we could refocus on content; then bad reverts like this would be avoided (cf. WP:PRESERVE). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 21:12, 8 April 2019 (UTC); revise and abridge 01:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Guy, if Middle 8 was defending his particular practice, then yes - absolutely a COI. But the sidebar tactic of declaring someone has a COI because they practice a certain whatever, then you'd be preventing every declared liberal from editing Dem political articles and the same as it would apply to conservative who support Repubs. The same would apply to every dentist, dermatologist, massage therapist, etc. I think you see my point. Worse yet, we can't even get a majority to agree that paid editors should be prevented from editing articles they were paid to edit. Major time sink here. Provide the diffs you oppose or just start an RfC at the article, and get ready for the "come what may". Just my 5¢ worth. Atsme Talk 📧 02:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Atsme, agreed re other professions, and the thing is, this was all discussed in the RfC and the "No COI" arguments (like yours) were found to outweigh the "Yes" ones. Yet Guy Macon is now suggesting I have a COI using -- wait for it -- those exact same arguments from the RfC (i.e. alt-meds like acupuncture are pseudoscience-y etc.). [15] How is this proper, and why did we even have the RfC? And why isn't this at COI/N? --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 09:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nice obfuscation. First you tell a blatant lie about what is in an RfC ("it's not possible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acupuncture, per recent RfC")[16] then when someone calls you on it, you write "this was all discussed in the RfC" and "How is this proper, and why did we even have the RfC?". I predict that if this ANI report closes without a consensus that you do have a COI and without a consensus that you do not have a COI, you will start claiming that "Per ANI I have no COI" and if anyone disagrees you will say that ANI settled the question and ask "why did we have a discussion on ANI?". --Guy Macon (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not a lie at all, a reasonable inference from the RfC result[17] as I've explained before you even posted here,[18] in this thread,[19] and later on your user talk page,[20] which at the moment you're still ignoring[21] in favor of this war/drama forum. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 04:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC); minor ce 05:25, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nice obfuscation. First you tell a blatant lie about what is in an RfC ("it's not possible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acupuncture, per recent RfC")[16] then when someone calls you on it, you write "this was all discussed in the RfC" and "How is this proper, and why did we even have the RfC?". I predict that if this ANI report closes without a consensus that you do have a COI and without a consensus that you do not have a COI, you will start claiming that "Per ANI I have no COI" and if anyone disagrees you will say that ANI settled the question and ask "why did we have a discussion on ANI?". --Guy Macon (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Atsme, agreed re other professions, and the thing is, this was all discussed in the RfC and the "No COI" arguments (like yours) were found to outweigh the "Yes" ones. Yet Guy Macon is now suggesting I have a COI using -- wait for it -- those exact same arguments from the RfC (i.e. alt-meds like acupuncture are pseudoscience-y etc.). [15] How is this proper, and why did we even have the RfC? And why isn't this at COI/N? --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 09:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Guy, if Middle 8 was defending his particular practice, then yes - absolutely a COI. But the sidebar tactic of declaring someone has a COI because they practice a certain whatever, then you'd be preventing every declared liberal from editing Dem political articles and the same as it would apply to conservative who support Repubs. The same would apply to every dentist, dermatologist, massage therapist, etc. I think you see my point. Worse yet, we can't even get a majority to agree that paid editors should be prevented from editing articles they were paid to edit. Major time sink here. Provide the diffs you oppose or just start an RfC at the article, and get ready for the "come what may". Just my 5¢ worth. Atsme Talk 📧 02:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think, as I said above, the fact of whether Middle8 has a COI here is completely dependent on his edits. If he's making neutral sourced edits then it doesn't matter anyway. If he's making disruptive or anti-consensus edits that show a clear POV then he may well be said to have a COI. But more importantly in this case, he should not be removing the edit notice because COI editors - whoever they are - should not be editing any article that they have a COI on; this one is no different. Not only that, but (as I quoted above) the RfC that Middle8 is using to justify removing the notice actually backed up this fact. Black Kite (talk) 18:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- There's nowhere in the RfC that someone can claim that acupuncturists cannot have a COI at least. The RfC can mostly be summarized as while having a numerically higher oppose count, the arguments for the supports have stronger arguments, but a specific proposal wasn't needed since current guidelines already cover those viewpoints.
- Comments like simply having a profession isn't COI tend to come up here a lot which is true, but that doesn't exclude that specific professions can have one. The key determinant is if that profession runs counter to Wikipedia's goals as an encyclopedia. Being a university professor, etc. doesn't have very much COI aside from an editor promoting their own research, etc. since their job is essentially presenting encyclopedic knowledge. Someone engaged in alternative medicine or pseudoscience though has a conflict since furthering encyclopedic knowledge runs counter to their profession as outlined in the first paragraph of WP:COI. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- You read the RfC closing wrong, Kingofaces43. Consensus was on the 60%-ish majority "oppose" side. It said
"We find, however, that the oppose arguments are stronger. ... Thus, the proposal to single out alt-med practitioners in policy as having a COI is opposed."
- I agree that the financial connection is tighter for the average alt-meder than the average professor, but you can read (or may recall) counterarguments from the RfC (that the slope is slippier than that, and that financial connections for any broad area are much more tenuous than the classic COI example of one's own business, et cetera). --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 00:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- You read the RfC closing wrong, Kingofaces43. Consensus was on the 60%-ish majority "oppose" side. It said
- I'll pile on here as well, the RfC very obviously decided against singling out alt-med practitioners as having an inherent COI relative to any other area of interest or specialty. It refused to make a pre-emptive blanket ruling that alt-med practitioners have a COI by default. That does not make it a pre-emptive blanket ruling that alt-med practitioners cannot have a COI, and that is what Mid 8 is quite literally arguing here. Mid 8's supposedly-amicable demeanor is severely betrayed by his inability and/or unwillingness to accept that his unrealistic interpretation of the RfC is not correct. This alone is grounds for serious consideration of sanctions. That said, if accusations of COI are being made, the underlying evidence should be examined. There is no pre-emptive default stance either way as a result of that RfC, beyond the default stance that accusations of any kind need supporting evidence. ~Swarm~ {sting} 07:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- As an authority on my own views, I object to being soundbited and misconstrued. I agree 100% with how one of the RfC closers paraphrased the RfC result:
- "The result of the RfC was that an alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner."[22]
- Compare that to "what Mid 8 is quite literally arguing here":
- "P.S. In a nutshell, simply having a profession (broadly, like "electrical engineer") does not create a COI when editing in that topic area. The RfC clarified that this indeed applies to CAM professions."[23]
- Of course an alt-med professional can have still COI's for aspects of their topic area, e.g. for their own writings/inventions, but not for their alt-med area broadly, and not simply because of their being a alt-meder.
- A brief talk-page exchange would've sufficed to clarify all this. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 21:11, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- As an authority on my own views, I object to being soundbited and misconstrued. I agree 100% with how one of the RfC closers paraphrased the RfC result:
Specific edits
As requested,[24] and without receiving a definitive answer regarding whether Middle 8 has a COI, I am posting a summary of Middle 8's edits that may or may not be COI violations, depending on whether or not he has a COI.
If you are looking for a smoking gun edit where Middle 8 has made blatantly biased or incorrect edits that would be sanctionable whether or not he has a COI, you can stop reading now. That did not happen. If you are looking for edits that paint acupuncture in a favorable light -- the kind of edit that would be OK if he has no COI but not OK if he does have a COI, read on.
(If you are sensing an undercurrent of me disagreeing with the basic plan of examining his edits without a determination of whether he has a COI, you are correct. I am not looking forward to the inevitable criticism that will follow me posting the following edits, but I realize that I will also be criticized if I don't post them.)
Middle 8 has spent the last ten years editing on and off in the area of Acupuncture. Middle 8 also has a direct financial interest in the Wikipedia acupuncture page and related pages painting acupuncture in a favorable light. I do not believe that Middle 8 is editing in bad faith. I believe that he wants Wikipedia to lean towards portraying acupuncture in a favorable light because he honestly believes that the existing content is too unfavorable.
In my opinion, the COI question is the key. If he doesn't have a COI, then making edits favorable to acupuncture would not be a problem. If he does have a COI they are a problem. That being said, here are some diffs:
His very first edit after registering was to change
- "Complementary and alternative medicine treatments, including chiropractic, homeopathy, acupuncture and energy psychology, have never been proven effective in randomized controlled trials."
to
- "Complementary and alternative medicine treatments, including chiropractic, homeopathy, and energy psychology, have never been proven effective in randomized controlled trials (RCT's). A review of 26 RCT's studying acupuncture for nausea and vomiting showed some effect, but those effects were equivocal for pregnancy-related nausea and vomiting."
Diff: 10:56, 28 January 2009 [25]
The next day he changed
- "TCM theory predates use of the scientific method and has received various criticisms based on scientific reductionist thinking, lack of evidence, and since there is no physically verifiable anatomical or histological basis for the existence of acupuncture points or meridians. "
to
- "TCM theory predates use of the scientific method and has received various criticisms based on scientific reductionist thinking, lack of evidence, and since there is no physically verifiable anatomical or histological basis for the existence of acupuncture points or meridians. (Hypotheses exist, however; e.g. Langevin and Yandow (2002) postulate a relationship of acupuncture points and meridians to connective tissue planes.) "
Diff: 05:46, 29 January 2009[26]
I am not going to list a bunch of edits from years ago unless specifically asked to do that, but here are a couple of samples.
- "Unlike established "woo", acupuncture's efficacy and mechanisms are unclear. The jury is out..."
Diff: 10:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC) [27]
- "A perusal of Pubmed and Cochrane reviews also shows that acu is taken seriously and shows some evidence of efficacy (see here and here, as does the fact that it's used at numerous academic centers] including some of the best (Harvard, Stanford etc.). Yes, for most conditions acupuncture has been shown not to work, but certainly for pain and nausea there is mainstream debate, cf. Cochrane. All these results are the fruit of recent, "wide and serious study". In fact, the single best MEDRS there is -- Vickers et. al. (2012) -- concludes that acupuncture "is more than a placebo" and a reasonable referral option."
Diff: 10:25, 8 January 2015[28]
This brings us up to recent edits:
- "Harrison's states that acupuncture is of some benefit in dysmennorhea, and lists it as a non-pharmaceutical treatment for pain in ADPKD and an adjunctive treatment in knee osteoarthritis, for which it "produces modest pain relief compared to placebo needles" According to Harrison's, acupuncture can be considered a useful adjunctive treatment in PTSD and comorbid depression in war veterans if, despite the lack of evidence, patients find it calming and relaxing."
Diff: 05:47, 5 January 2019[29]
- Removed "Individuals with a conflict of interest (COI), particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest."
Diff: 07:48, 7 April 2019[30]
Again, I posted the above edits because I was asked to, not because I believe that they answer the question I asked. And I really am asking whether Middle 8 has a COI, not trying to prove that he does have a COI, so please put your flamethrowers down. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Middle 8 here. The advice from Jayron32 above is superb, but that's not (at all) what Guy Macon is doing. The diffs are selectively quoted (hence the wall of text and not just links), omitting material critical of acu, sources used, how I responded to any reverts, et cetera.
- COI arises from one's off-wiki activities and not one's edits (a too-common misconception). Of course some of a non-COI editors' edits could be improper if they had a COI, but it's illogical (and unfair) to insinuate that such non-COI edits imply a COI. That's putting the are-my-edits-conflicted cart before the do-I-indeed-have-a-conflict horse. It's not how you handle either COI or editing concerns. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 00:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Another view
It seems to me that proponents of pseudoscience, in which category accupuncture clearly belongs, must be held to the highest standard when making claims about their particular brand of woo. For a start WP:MEDS edit +WP:MEDRSend edit seems like a bare minimum when making claims about possible health treatments. Whether of not an editor is a practicing accupuncturist or whether or not they have a COI, all edits about such subjects need impeccible citing to reliable secondary and tertiary sources. Wikipedia correctly subscribes to the mainline scientific view of such subjects and it is always going to be problematice when proponents edit in the areas of their particular interest. It is not akin to an engineer editing an article on engineering practice because there are going to be multiple RS to back up the engineer's claims. The same cannot be said for accupuncture. - Nick Thorne talk 03:07, 10 April 2019 (UTC) edit to correct link - Nick Thorne talk 03:58, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Nick, and will add that it is important for us to exercise a level of caution in order to avoid excluding well-sourced material our readers expect to see in an encyclopedia; i.e., all relevant views presented with proper weight and balance per NPOV. We provide the whole picture, not a Photoshopped version of it in an effort to pursuade readers to accept a particular POV - we simply present the facts with proper weight given to the scientific mainstream view. If material is poorly sourced, UNDUE, etc. it is subject to removal. If the editor in question has created disruption (such as 3RR or is repeatedly citing unreliable sources) or has acted uncivil (PAs, threats, etc.) in an effort to prevent removal of poorly sourced/UNDUE material, then you have an actionable behavioral issue, but I have not seen any evidence to support such a claim. Circumstantial evidence may establish patterned behavior but is the behavior actionable if there is no evidence to support an actionable claim? What I'm seeing is an editor with a professional perspective. What professional doesn't have a noticeable POV involving their chosen profession? NPOV tells us to include all relevant views published by/cited to RS so our readers can make their own determinations. Just curious...in comparison, do you consider Britannica's accupuncture article to be overly promotional or possibly authored by proponents of pseudoscience, or well-presented? Perhaps such a comparison will help answer your question about COI. Atsme Talk 📧 12:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Good points that apply all around. When acupuncture has mainstream acceptance such as use in academic medical centers[31] and the National Academy of Medicine calls it a "powerful tool" in pain management,[32] perhaps the pseudoscience and quackery aspects shouldn't overwhelm our treatment of the subject and its practitioners and their possible COI's. One might wonder based on this thread, and the lede of acupuncture, how well we're doing that. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 02:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I see that Brittanica are parroting the chinagov deception that the Chinese use acu to anaesthetise patients for surgery. How accurate is the rest of that article? -Roxy, the dog. wooF 12:51, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- What Britannica does is irrelevant to this issue, because they do not claim to follow anything like our WP:NPOV policy. Many of their articles are written by a single person and reflect that person's point of view. That is a feature, not a bug. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Re Atsme's insightful comment above about avoid excluding well-sourced material our readers expect to see in an encyclopedia and simply presenting the facts with proper weight given to the scientific mainstream view, in the cases of acupuncture, the proponents really do believe that the scientific mainstream view is far more favorable towards acupuncture than the Wiipedia article is.
- As Upton Sinclair once observed, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it".
- So, how do we reach a balance between avoiding the exclusion of well-sourced material and the natural tendency of someone like Middle 8 to not understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it? We simply require him to read and obey Wikipedia:Best practices for editors with close associations. Right now the problem is that he honestly believes that an RfC was closed with a conclusion that Best practices doesn't apply to him. :( --Guy Macon (talk) 18:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do take COIADVICE seriously, and am careful, but I'm not 100% all-the-time bound by its mainspace-avoding-advice without a COI finding -- and it's disingenous to suggest I should have one in all but name. You may recall that you opened an RfC with me in mind that concluded (paraphrase, from one of the closing admins):
The result of the RfC was that an alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner."
[33] Instead of forum-shopping and repeating old arguments from that RfC, please offer a reason why its result doesn't cover me -- IOW why my case is somehow more financially-connected than the default alt-med practitioner. Which per Ernst is small -- he thinks the idealogical "COI", almost evangelical fanaticism, is the much bigger problem. Which we call bad editing. If that's your concern about me, handle it the proper way, not underhandedly like this. Like an actual conversation on user talk, which you have been avoiding. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 23:48, 10 April 2019 (UTC); minor ce23:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC), 23:59, 10 April 2019 (UTC), clarify to avoid another soundbite 23:59, 10 April 2019 (UTC)- You shouldn't feel like you need to follow COIADVICE if, as appears to be the case, you have a good-faith belief that you don't have a COI and absent a definitive answer from either the admins at ANI or the arbs at arbcom that you do have one. And likewise JzG and Roxy shouldn't feel like they need to stop telling you to follow COIADVICE if, as appears to be the case, they have a good-faith belief that you do have a COI and absent a definitive answer from either the admins at ANI or the arbs at arbcom that you do have one.
- It is clear from your disparaging comments about my filing this ANI case and about the second RfC that you do not want any definitive answer from either the admins at ANI or the arbs at arbcom. You clearly want us to simply agree with your arguments. It is equally clear that Roxy (and I presume JzG) will never stop telling you that you have a COI and that you should follow COIADVICE unless they receive a definitive answer from either the admins at ANI or the arbs at arbcom telling them to stop doing that. So what do we do when editors are unable to agree about how to apply Wikipedia policy and ANI is unable to resolve this disagreement? We take it to arbcom, which I intend to do once this thread is auto-archived without a definitive answer.
- Related discussion: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Is it impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture? --Guy Macon (talk) 00:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do take COIADVICE seriously, and am careful, but I'm not 100% all-the-time bound by its mainspace-avoding-advice without a COI finding -- and it's disingenous to suggest I should have one in all but name. You may recall that you opened an RfC with me in mind that concluded (paraphrase, from one of the closing admins):
- What Britannica does is irrelevant to this issue, because they do not claim to follow anything like our WP:NPOV policy. Many of their articles are written by a single person and reflect that person's point of view. That is a feature, not a bug. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I'll weigh in as the main drafter of the RfC close. Acupuncturists don't have an inherent COI when editing Acupuncture. That means that acupuncturists are not forbidden (or even strongly discouraged) from editing Acupuncture simply because they are acupuncturists. That doesn't mean that their edits don't deserve scrutiny. Discretionary sanctions apply to this topic and misuse of sources, POV-pushing, edit-warring, combative talk-page participation, wikilawyering, uncollegial or battleground editing, or just about any other sort of tendentious or disruptive editing should be reported to AE where admins willing to take arbitration enforcement action can do so.
IMO, editors on both sides of this dispute are much too fixated on the question of COI. On the one hand, some editors are still pushing the theory that because acupuncturists depend on the reliability of acupuncture for their income, they have an inherent COI with regard to acupuncture, despite the RfC clearly rejecting this line of reasoning. Some seem to be arguing that acupuncturists as a class don't have an inherent COI per the RfC, but that any particular practitioner necessarily depends on the efficacy of acupuncture to make a living and so does have an inherent COI. It is a bit hard to understand the internal consistency of this position. While I can see the advantage to these editors in classing those they disagree with as COI editors, the community has disagreed with them and it's time for them to drop it. If the editing itself is problematic, there is easy admin action available via AE. On the other hand, Middle 8 appears to have taken the result of the RfC much too broadly: no, being an acupuncturist doesn't inherently give you a COI that rises to the level of WP:COI; but yes, it is still perfectly possible for you to misuse sources, use poor sources (and MEDRS applies here), edit disruptively to make a point and generally edit in a way that seeks to promote acupuncture rather than improve the encyclopaedia. I haven't had a deep dig through their contributions, but if their user page is at all indicative of their approach to sourcing regarding acupuncture, I'd say they were on thin ice. GoldenRing (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know what in my userspace could be construed as my not grokking medrs or rs; I've asked at GoldenRing's usertalk. That said, grateful for this clarification. --Middle 8 (t • c • privacy) 02:44, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've responded at my usertalk; see there for details. GoldenRing (talk) 09:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Blocked for a mean comment made a decade ago?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On April 8, User:Enigmaman blocked User:Ribbon Salminen for "repeated personal attacks" first for three years and then for one year. That account has not made an edit for over a year. Looking through Enigmaman's edits, following the block he made this comment to a nearly ten-year old discussion, including a diff where the blocked user made an admittedly mean comment about him. The comment is also listed on one of Enigmaman's subpages. That comment was made literally a decade ago and led to a block back then. I don't see how Enigmaman's new block follows any blocking policy at all. For full disclosure, the blocked account is my old account, before I did a WP:CLEANSTART. I'm not particularly happy about outing myself, but this was such weird behavior from an admin that I felt I had to do something. I would like the block removed although I have no intention of returning to the old account. I tried to reach out to Enigmaman, but heard nothing but silence. [REDACTED - Oshwah] 17:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- NOTE: I've redacted and suppressed the identity of the creator of this discussion. It's clear that he/she self-outed themselves very reluctantly, and in order to file this report here. In order to protect the identity of the user following their clean start and to keep the user's identity private until they willingly disclose this information publicly, this action was determined to be necessary. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Unblocked. If you had just asked, I would've unblocked, although I'm confused about the motivation. Enigmamsg 17:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me, Enigmaman, but that's all you've got to say for yourself? I'm confused about your motivation. EEng 19:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC) And you shouldn't be closing a thread that's about your own behavior. [34]
- You were asked. And it's your motivation that seems much more confusing. You obviously made a bad mistake here, and pretending that you didn't only makes it much worse. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- The user couldn't have asked without risking self-disclosure of their identity and connection to the account. They felt the need to discuss it here instead, and obviously for good reason; unfortunately, they had to self-disclose their identity following a clean start in order to do so (which I've resolved). ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:42, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oh wow this is an incredibly bad block which requires a very good explanation. GiantSnowman 19:19, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- A 3 year block (that was lowered to a year) for an editor that hasn’t edited since January of 2018? Could you show the personal attack that led to this block? RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Enigmaman: Please explain your actions here. Paul August ☎ 21:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Enigmaman making a bad block needs an explanation as well as an apology to the community. Closing the thread about your behavior is every bit as egregious. Please respond to the concerns here and try to restore some sense of trust in your ability to act responsibly as an admin. MarnetteD|Talk 21:33, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't even see where an explanation is needed. This is blatant retaliation and grudging. Look at the timeline:
- 20:14 8 April, Enigmaman updates his "disaster" page. On that same page, he has preserved a diff of this 2009 personal attack by Ribbon Salminen.
- Three minutes later, he blocks Ribbon Salminen, a highly established account in good standing, that has not edited in well over a year and was supposedly retired. The block was a draconian 1 year, for "repeated personal attacks", reduced from an initial decision to block for 3 years. Enigma did not provide the required block notification. Enigma also deleted Ribbon's talk page header, in violation of WP:TPO.[35]
- A few minutes later, he responds to a comment from 2009 and posts the diff of the personal attack.[36]
- This would have gone undetected if not for the fact that the user has cleanstarted. The abusive block forced the user to out their connection. Enigma admits that they would have unblocked if simply asked, which means they're not even trying to pretend that there was any legitimate justification for the block. Yet, they suggest that the user has some sort of questionable motivation? This is a serious issue. ~Swarm~ {sting} 21:41, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Enigmaman - I like you a lot as a person and respect you completely, but man... as an uninvolved editor and admin reading through this thread, you do need to answer the numerous calls for an explanation here, and you do need to fully outline and explain this block and what happened. My guess is that you didn't realize how old the comment was, thought it was recent by mistake, and applied a block accordingly. Even if this were the case, why such a long block duration? Three years? Even one year is quite a long time... what was the reason behind such a long block? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- When I first arrived at this thread, this seemed like very strange behaviour on the part of the blocking admin. Then I came across their first two unsuccessful RfAs — Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Enigmaman and Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Enigmaman 2. The phrase "intentionally deceptive" used by one of the !voters struck out. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 23:24, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington - Lets not dive into past RFA discussions and use decade-old comments to imply any accusations or a connection to this situation without a clear explanation of a connection and reason for doing so. I don't think that it's constructive or relevant here... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:33, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have posted these under ordinary circumstances. However, the observations and evidences presented in the RfAs taken together with this latest example of what appears to be an egregious abuse of power (as highlighted by Swarm above), combined with their deceptive response when questioned about it, suggests a long-term pattern of abuse. This means that, at the very least, their recent administrative actions need to be reviewed by the community. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 00:02, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington - Thank you for responding and providing additional thought and clarity regarding your original comment. It's helpful in that others will understand your thoughts and the connection you're seeing, rather than possibly seeing it as an implied accusation based on completely random things. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 00:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have posted these under ordinary circumstances. However, the observations and evidences presented in the RfAs taken together with this latest example of what appears to be an egregious abuse of power (as highlighted by Swarm above), combined with their deceptive response when questioned about it, suggests a long-term pattern of abuse. This means that, at the very least, their recent administrative actions need to be reviewed by the community. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 00:02, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington - Lets not dive into past RFA discussions and use decade-old comments to imply any accusations or a connection to this situation without a clear explanation of a connection and reason for doing so. I don't think that it's constructive or relevant here... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:33, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for bringing this to the community’s attention, even at the risk of “outting” yourself (and a thank you to Oshwah for amending that). If this is indeed retaliatory, it’s an egregious breach of community trust, and an obvious misuse of tools. And given what Swarm came across when looking at the block, I’m not sure we should immediately assume good faith here. Per ADMINACCT, User:Enigmaman should explain both blocks, which are indeed rather Draconian. Even if others feel a block was appropriate in either case, rather than mediation or any number of other ways to reach a problematic editor, or correct disruptive behaviour... YEARS(s) should never be an administrator’s first resort. Given the user page, two severe blocks within a short duration, and one in which the user was obviously absent (who doesn’t check the contributions page?), I have to wonder if there are other blocks that should be reversed as well. Please explain yourself. (Non-admin here, obviously. I just find this concerning). Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- You might be onto something. I decided to take a look at some of Enigmaman's recently issued blocks, and almost instantly stumbled upon this block, undone by User:Boing!_said_Zebedee as "bad block." Can't say I'm surprised. The question isn't "if" but "how many." Disgusting. 78.28.54.200 (talk) 23:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oh dear, yes, that one. The context is at User talk:Bloger#Yet another warning, and my unblock rationale was that "This was clear abuse of admin rights in a content dispute". An utter disgrace. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- You might be onto something. I decided to take a look at some of Enigmaman's recently issued blocks, and almost instantly stumbled upon this block, undone by User:Boing!_said_Zebedee as "bad block." Can't say I'm surprised. The question isn't "if" but "how many." Disgusting. 78.28.54.200 (talk) 23:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: I remember that discussion; I notice that Enigmaman also abused the rollback tool in a content dispute, and I think the only reason I didn't undo the block myself is I wanted his explanation first. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is very disappointing to see - especially knowing that further investigation may find more issues and discover that this is an ongoing trend. Boing! said Zebedee, was there an ANI or noticeboard discussion regarding this block and unblock? Or just what I'm seeing in this section of Bloger's user talk page? Did Enigmaman offer an explanation or apology following this block that was satisfactory? Where was it made? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 00:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's all there was that I know of - I just saw Bloger's unblock request when checking CAT:RFU, and there was no subsequent response from Enigmaman anywhere that I saw. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Boing! said Zebedee - Aww, that's not good. There appears to be a possible trend with Enigmaman performing bad blocks, and Enigmaman's inability to take control, follow up, explain what happened, and own up and apologize (what I'd expect to see per WP:ADMINACCT). Not good... very concerning to see. I also don't like the way he followed up after applying the block either. All things aside regarding the situation and block, we shouldn't be
feeding trolls orsee my clarification below making comments that will exacerbate the situation and lead to more disruption in retaliation by the recipient. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 00:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)- What trolls, Oshwah? I know some random tend to circle the admins like sharks, but I don’t think that’s the case here. There’s a few terse comments, but I think this genuinely comes from a bit of a shock. As I said, I’d rather people review and reflect themselves, and let Enigmaman respond. As well as keep an open mind. But this is still really concerning, even if all good faith is assumed. There’s very likely either a misuse/abuse of admin privileges, or a CIR issue, which requires attention. Barring some response I can’t foresee of course. There’s no need to “pile on”, but I think people should be able to voice legitimate concerns. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 01:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Symmachus Auxiliarus - To clarify that statement: "Even if you put this situation aside and assume that it's a normal block against a vandal editor, we're not supposed to feed trolls." I was simply saying that the comment was in poor taste regardless of the legitimacy of the block and the situation that warranted it. That's all; I wasn't trying to imply or call anyone a troll here. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That makes perfect sense now, thank you. I guess the wording just threw me, Oshwah. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Symmachus Auxiliarus - To clarify that statement: "Even if you put this situation aside and assume that it's a normal block against a vandal editor, we're not supposed to feed trolls." I was simply saying that the comment was in poor taste regardless of the legitimacy of the block and the situation that warranted it. That's all; I wasn't trying to imply or call anyone a troll here. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- What trolls, Oshwah? I know some random tend to circle the admins like sharks, but I don’t think that’s the case here. There’s a few terse comments, but I think this genuinely comes from a bit of a shock. As I said, I’d rather people review and reflect themselves, and let Enigmaman respond. As well as keep an open mind. But this is still really concerning, even if all good faith is assumed. There’s very likely either a misuse/abuse of admin privileges, or a CIR issue, which requires attention. Barring some response I can’t foresee of course. There’s no need to “pile on”, but I think people should be able to voice legitimate concerns. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 01:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Boing! said Zebedee - Aww, that's not good. There appears to be a possible trend with Enigmaman performing bad blocks, and Enigmaman's inability to take control, follow up, explain what happened, and own up and apologize (what I'd expect to see per WP:ADMINACCT). Not good... very concerning to see. I also don't like the way he followed up after applying the block either. All things aside regarding the situation and block, we shouldn't be
- That's all there was that I know of - I just saw Bloger's unblock request when checking CAT:RFU, and there was no subsequent response from Enigmaman anywhere that I saw. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- (re-indenting): Apologies is this is just some reference to trolling or an essay (aside from the obvious) I’m unaware of. I watch these boards regularly, but I’ve rarely commented. I don’t really know what sorts of issues you guys run into here. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 01:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I’d recommend admins and editors just read his current talk page as well. There seems to be some concern among others regarding the severity of even his most recent admin actions. Not trying to prejudice any opinions here, but it does seem there’s a pattern of people asking why certain actions were taken, and rolling it back. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And your account is an HOUR old? Who were you before? Liz Read! Talk! 01:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The answer to your question can be found on the user's userpage. Let's not change the subject. 78.28.54.200 (talk) 01:31, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Liz, we've met before. I've been on Wikipedia for like... A decade, though editing infrequently. You'll understand if you check my first registered account, Quinto Simmaco. TLDR: I've edited so infrequently I've had to make an alternate account due to inaccessibility, essentially. It's all on the up-and-up. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The answer to your question can be found on the user's userpage. Let's not change the subject. 78.28.54.200 (talk) 01:31, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And your account is an HOUR old? Who were you before? Liz Read! Talk! 01:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm reviewing Enigma's block logs, and inappropriate blocking practices seem to be the rule, rather than the exception:
- No notification, block log entry of "made better" (a personal pot-shot)[37]
- No notification, personal attack in block log entry[38]
- No notification, bizarre block duration, personal attack in log entry[39]
- No notification, no block log entry[40]
- Personal attack in notification[41]
- No block log entry[42]
- It seems Enigma's been getting away with petty misconduct for so long, that he's started venturing out into making blatantly illegitimate blocks for personal vengeance. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I should note that Enigma virtually never notifies users he blocks, which is something that is required by blocking policy. Looking into his other logs, I'm already seeing bizarre behavior in other areas too. For example, he indefinitely extended confirmed protected the redirect Audrey Geisel, which was being vandalized. ECP, much less indef ECP, did not appear to be necessary. When you examine the deleted contributions, you can see that there was no disruption from autoconfirmed accounts, and the period that the redirect was subject to vandalism was fairly brief. But, in conjunction with his indef ECP, he bizarrely deleted the page and then selectively restored only the non-disruptive edits. Therefore, no one other than admins can see the evidence as to why the page was locked. Cleaning up an edit history seems fine, but when that edit history pertains directly to an admin action, it's unacceptable. I don't have time to keep digging right now, but I doubt this is the last inappropriate behavior I'll be able to find. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment, since this is the second time it's been mentioned. From WP:EXPLAINBLOCK: "Administrators must supply a clear and specific block reason that indicates why a user was blocked...Administrators should notify users when blocking them by leaving a message on their user talk page..." The clear block reason is required, a talk page notification is only recommended. ST47 (talk) 01:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- If a policy says you "should" do something, that does not suggest that it is optional. Nothing about the word "should" implies "optional recommendation". It is, by definition, an obligation, or a duty, the opposite of an "optional recommendation". "Should generally" or "should usually" would imply that exceptions can be made, but even if you extremely stretch your interpretation to that extent, we're not dealing with exceptions. Even if it's merely "general guidance" in which exceptions can be made (a dubious suggestion to begin with, but I'm humoring you), that still does not give one license to engage in an extended pattern of ignoring policy guidance. Regardless, I don't think your semantics would hold up at Arbcom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swarm (talk • contribs) 01:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That is a very interesting linguistic opinion based on literally just half of the first definition given for that word. In any event, if an action is required without exception, you should change the wording in the policy to "must". Otherwise it's still just a suggestion. Though I would agree that habitually ignoring best practices for no good reason is a problem. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- If a policy says you "should" do something, that does not suggest that it is optional. Nothing about the word "should" implies "optional recommendation". It is, by definition, an obligation, or a duty, the opposite of an "optional recommendation". "Should generally" or "should usually" would imply that exceptions can be made, but even if you extremely stretch your interpretation to that extent, we're not dealing with exceptions. Even if it's merely "general guidance" in which exceptions can be made (a dubious suggestion to begin with, but I'm humoring you), that still does not give one license to engage in an extended pattern of ignoring policy guidance. Regardless, I don't think your semantics would hold up at Arbcom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swarm (talk • contribs) 01:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment, since this is the second time it's been mentioned. From WP:EXPLAINBLOCK: "Administrators must supply a clear and specific block reason that indicates why a user was blocked...Administrators should notify users when blocking them by leaving a message on their user talk page..." The clear block reason is required, a talk page notification is only recommended. ST47 (talk) 01:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The very first definition is simply “to have an obligation”. That is literally the opposite of “to be advised”. There’s no convincing linguistic ambiguity here. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I said, the first half of the first definition. The back end of the first definition already casts doubt on that. As do definitions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and the usage notes. "Should" != "must", and if you think that a should is a must, then you should (must?) change it. Plenty of Wikipedia policies use the word "must", while others use "should". This is not an accident, and they are not synonyms, and this shouldn't be the topic here anyway. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Since there is confusion, let's clarify: if you've been adminning for any length of time, it is clear from context (i.e. how the policy is applied) is that should is used in the "it's highly recommended, though clearly there would be exceptions" realm, RATHER than the "you must do this under penalty of death" realm. To wit: for most "garden variety" blocks (i.e. standard vandalism, edit warring, gross misconduct and abuse, etc.) we always notify, or must try to. However, there are also clearly times when notification is not necessary, usually when blocking a long banned user who jumps IP addresses rapidly. In those cases, there comes a point when leaving notice is just silly, and we WP:RBI and move on. So yes, we leave notice (and I will note that every block by Enigmaman so presented above seems to be those types that mandate rather than suggest a block notice), HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that there aren't times when leaving a notice is not only unnecessary, but probably counterproductive. Carry on.--Jayron32 13:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- This sort of pedantic dithering about the definition and philosophy regarding the word "should" is fucking stupid. If a policy says you "should" do something, then you "should" do something. The intent is not to ignore what it says, just because you can put up some flimsy, pseudointellectual semantical debate. If your only realistic defense for consistently ignoring a policy directive is to debate the semantics of the word "should", then you're almost certainly the problem. ~Swarm~ [[User talk:|{sting}]] 08:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- In other words, when we’re looking at literal, blatant admin abuse, context like this becomes very relevant. To argue that an admin is repeatedly ignoring policy guidance, rather than a policy mandate, does not improve the big picture. To do so from a pedantic, semantical point of contention, that’s just ridiculously petty. I’d be happy to debate semantics of the world “should” all day, but not when we’re worried about an abusive admin. If you think now is the time to debate such a petty, inconsequential semantical point, then you’re clearly more focused on playing devil’s advocate, and engaging in dramamongering itself, than actually examining and resolving the big picture. Carry on. ~Swarm~ {sting} 08:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- This sort of pedantic dithering about the definition and philosophy regarding the word "should" is fucking stupid. If a policy says you "should" do something, then you "should" do something. The intent is not to ignore what it says, just because you can put up some flimsy, pseudointellectual semantical debate. If your only realistic defense for consistently ignoring a policy directive is to debate the semantics of the word "should", then you're almost certainly the problem. ~Swarm~ [[User talk:|{sting}]] 08:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Since there is confusion, let's clarify: if you've been adminning for any length of time, it is clear from context (i.e. how the policy is applied) is that should is used in the "it's highly recommended, though clearly there would be exceptions" realm, RATHER than the "you must do this under penalty of death" realm. To wit: for most "garden variety" blocks (i.e. standard vandalism, edit warring, gross misconduct and abuse, etc.) we always notify, or must try to. However, there are also clearly times when notification is not necessary, usually when blocking a long banned user who jumps IP addresses rapidly. In those cases, there comes a point when leaving notice is just silly, and we WP:RBI and move on. So yes, we leave notice (and I will note that every block by Enigmaman so presented above seems to be those types that mandate rather than suggest a block notice), HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that there aren't times when leaving a notice is not only unnecessary, but probably counterproductive. Carry on.--Jayron32 13:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I said, the first half of the first definition. The back end of the first definition already casts doubt on that. As do definitions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and the usage notes. "Should" != "must", and if you think that a should is a must, then you should (must?) change it. Plenty of Wikipedia policies use the word "must", while others use "should". This is not an accident, and they are not synonyms, and this shouldn't be the topic here anyway. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The very first definition is simply “to have an obligation”. That is literally the opposite of “to be advised”. There’s no convincing linguistic ambiguity here. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- While there's clearly an issue with the Ribbon Salminen salminen block, the routine vandal blocks without talkpage notice are not really an issue in my view. For obvious vandal-only accounts or whackamole socks I don't leave talkpage notices either. It's not a matter of whether some policy text says "should" or "must"; it's a matter of common sense. Real vandals know why they are getting blocked, there's no need to tell them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:15, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Future Perfect at Sunrise: This is my working practice as well - when somebody is defacing an article with "poohead", they do not need a template. WP:DENY. However, I also use the stock rationale of "Vandalism", "Disruptive editing" or "Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia" - snarky comments in block notices are completely unacceptable. Do not insult the vandals. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Enigmaman. I'm going to be brief and direct. This looks really bad. You need to do one of two things. Post a serious explanation for your recent and highly controversial use of the tools and be prepared to answer what I am guessing will be a lot of questions from the community and your fellow admins. Alternatively I suggest an abject apology coupled with your resignation as an admin. Anything else is not likely to end well. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, Ad Orientem is correct here. With what's been uncovered so far in this discussion and in the short amount of time it's been open, this will very likely become an ArbCom case to have the committee review your use of blocks and conduct surrounding them, as well as WP:ADMINACCT. The community's trust, as expressed here, has been strongly shaken regarding your ability to hold and appropriately use the admin tools. As summarized many times above and by most users who have responded here: This is really bad. :-/ ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:33, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The Centers for Disease Control are predicting a time-limited micro-localized outbreak of ANI flu starting immediately: computer models forecast that only a single admin will be affected, and that the sufferer will suddenly recover a day or two after this thread closes. The most prominent symptom, of course, is a sudden inability to communicate. EEng 02:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- In this case, the flu could be fatal. I don't want to come across as giving an ultimatum, but this is not going away w/o one of hell of an explanation. And I don't think there is going to be a lot patience waiting for it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Given the amount of issues that have been uncovered in this discussion, I think that an ArbCom case is warranted regardless of the explanation provided for the block that let to the creation of this discussion (and even others). There seems to be too many separate cases and issues regarding the use of admin tools to consider otherwise... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- In this case, the flu could be fatal. I don't want to come across as giving an ultimatum, but this is not going away w/o one of hell of an explanation. And I don't think there is going to be a lot patience waiting for it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The Centers for Disease Control are predicting a time-limited micro-localized outbreak of ANI flu starting immediately: computer models forecast that only a single admin will be affected, and that the sufferer will suddenly recover a day or two after this thread closes. The most prominent symptom, of course, is a sudden inability to communicate. EEng 02:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The thread remains open in case Enigmaman wishes to respond. It is also useful to keep others aware to be on the lookout in case a new bad block is made in which case a WP:PREVENTATIVE block should be placed on Enigmaman MarnetteD|Talk 04:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion is open to allow input from the community regarding this situation and Enigmaman's use of admin tools. We're also waiting for Enigmaman to respond to this discussion. Closing it would be inappropriate. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 04:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The pattern of conduct here and the deafening silence means an ArbCom case is likely necessary. GiantSnowman 07:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- At what point do we go "yep... they're not gonna respond and they've got the flu" like Eeng said above and just file that ArbCom case? I'll do so now... but I don't wanna look like I'm assuming bad faith. I kinda feel like regardless they need to provide these answers within an ArbCom case. Dusti*Let's talk!* 08:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- He hasn't edited since his comments here 15 hours ago (ish, if my maths is correct) - his editing pattern shows him online and editing just about every day, so give it a few more hours. If still silent, then I think it's fair to assume he is putting his head in the sand... GiantSnowman 08:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've also emailed him - "It would be really helpful if you could please return and comment on the ANI thread. I understand this must be a concerning time, but ignoring it won't help." GiantSnowman 08:08, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- It's quite likely that Enigmaman is in the United States, which would mean that he's probably asleep at the moment. I think we should wait for 24 hours plus a few since his last edit before taking this to Arbcom. Maybe the miracle that EEng described above will happen. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- He hasn't edited since his comments here 15 hours ago (ish, if my maths is correct) - his editing pattern shows him online and editing just about every day, so give it a few more hours. If still silent, then I think it's fair to assume he is putting his head in the sand... GiantSnowman 08:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think that an ArbCom case would be a fair next course of action, regardless of Enigmaman's responses here. A case request at ArbCom doesn't have to be made and decided based off of the issues alone (although that's a very key part in the formulation of a good request); it should also examine and take into account the amount of trust and confidence that the community currently has regarding Enigmaman and his/her ability to hold the admin user rights. If that community trust and confidence is clearly shaken or comes into question (no doubt it certainly has), ArbCom has generally accepted these case requests regarding admins and their conduct and tool use in order to evaluate everything from all angles, and impose binding decisions and sanctions that the committee feels is necessary or needed in order to put a stop to the issues and prevent future problems (whether that be restrictions, bans, or the removal of the tools altogether). ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 08:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Apart from the Audrey Geisel indef protection pointed out above, there's also
- 2017–18 Los Angeles Lakers season, which was indef-protected more than a fortnight after the last vandalism and remains so till date... I couldn't notice any long-time disruption on the article to warrant an indef-protection. I may be wrong.[43]
- Tim Hardaway Jr. – again, indefinite protection with the explanation "trade rumors" of an article that has been protected only once in its lifetime for a week. No vandalism reverted.[44]
- User:Anonymous editor – indef-protecting the user page of a user who last edited in 2006, with an explanation "no reason for this".[45]
- User talk:PMDrive1061 – indef-protecting the user talk page of a user who last edited in 2014, with no explanation,[46], and bringing back a talk page that the user had already taken out years ago (explanation provided: "talk").[47]
- There are many other examples; I'm just tired of trawling to say what is obvious. Something's funny and we should probably get this done without delay. Lourdes 09:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Uhm, the userspace log entries you listed above aren't "protections", they are essentially "unprotections", i.e. changes of old indef-full-protected pages to semiprotection. Those seem not unreasonable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The protection of PMDrive1061's talk was placed by DeltaQuad in 2011 with the rationale "User has left, pages have been targets below, no opposition to unprotection if required/requested by user" (emphasis mine). No reason was given for the unprotection, and the only reason Enigmaman did it was because of this RFPP comment that mentioned "Admin PMDrive1061 who locked it [ Alex Olson ] is retired". Unprotection was neither required or requested by PMDrive1061. Certainly nobody asked for Enigmaman to remove the retired template. If somebody's retired, respect their wishes, don't just unilaterally use your tools on what you think should be done without any discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Uhm, the userspace log entries you listed above aren't "protections", they are essentially "unprotections", i.e. changes of old indef-full-protected pages to semiprotection. Those seem not unreasonable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Arbcom case, please. I had a quick look at Enigmaman's contributions. Immediately I see him deleting Audrey Geisel with a rationale of "this does not need a page" (in whose opinion?), and when restoring it after being asked politely which CSD criteria he was using, extended confirmed protected with the rationale "disruptive edits" (where exactly and from whom?) and deleting a whole bunch of edits from it (although the edits were mostly vandalism and reverts thereof, policy is only to redact / oversight in extreme instances, never delete entirely). Then we have User:Martinb22/sandbox deleted with a summary of "mental handicap" (WP:NPA?) and Draft:List of rulers of the Gurma Mossi state of Pama with the rationale "bot pestering me" (what CSD criteria is that?) That's a total dog's breakfast and several policy violations in ten minutes of looking. I notice Swarm has already mentioned some of this above, and I apologise for only skim reading the thread before doing my own research; still it proves that at least two admins have concluded there is a problem. Enigmaman, you need to get back to this thread ASAP and, in the words of Blackadder, I would advise you to make the explanation you are about to give... phenomenally good. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That "mental handicap" comment added to the deletion reason is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of the situation. Even if Enigmaman was G5'ing a page created by an LTA user causing severe abuse and disruption, comments like these - especially in admin actions - will only feed the troll and encourage them to continue what they're doing. Definitely not behavior that I expect to see from an admin... :-/ ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 09:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am not happy about Enigmaman's adjudication on Peter Lemongello, where he blocked the IP who credibly asserted to be Lemongello, while the other party in the edit war (restoring claims of kidnapping and arson cited to People magazine with equally incivil edit summaries), Vinylstud97 (talk · contribs) got off scot free. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And, generally, I am not a fan of crowds with pitchforks. I did not look at all the details, though diffs which I checked indeed look problematic. However, as a complement to problematic diffs, I would like to see evidence that the problems have been pointed to / discussed with the administrator, and they did not (or, actually, did) correct their behavior. This might be or might not be the case here, but generally for most administrators one can find diffs of some actions they were not really proud of. If indeed an ArbCom case is filed, an important part of the case must be an investigation how they reacted when the problem has been pointed out to them.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter - I agree. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 13:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes Ymblanter, I agree too, but given the number and seeming egregiousness of the problematic actions, the absence of such discussions certainly would not preclude some sanction by ArbCom. Paul August ☎ 15:02, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I also agree with Paul August here. There are many things to take into an account when looking into cases such as this. As stated by Ymblanter: Whether or not the user (in general, not referring specifically to Enigmaman) has been given the chance (or how many chances and opportunities were given) to improve their edits and behavior following feedback and notices left asking them to stop is something that certainly can be examined and taken into account by the community (if they choose to do so). Another aspect: Whether or not the user, given the feedback or notices left about issues or problems with their edits or actions in the past, have honored such feedback and actually ceased such issues or behaviors and stopped them from happening again. However, as Paul August and many others have pointed out here: judging the issues as a whole will be a balance between these different viewpoints. Whether or not the user was asked to stop the behavior before, and how the user has responded to feedback in the past and worked to put an end to issues - are aspects that can only be considered up to a point depending on the issues and problems. If the issues are eggregious, severe, neglegent, or abusive enough (again, I'm speaking in general and not specifically referring to Enigmaman) - these aspects begin to lose their importance, relevance, and their consideration by the community... :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:42, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I think we are in full agreement here (again, I did not really look into the case and did not try to find the diffs). For example, it is pretty clear that if an admin vandalized a page and reverted the vandalism revert (or made sure vandalism was not accidental) they must be desysopped, and no feedback is needed. And there is the whole range between this and blocking someone for 48 hours rather than following the usual practice of 24 hours. Without looking at the details, I do not know where we are here.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I also agree with Paul August here. There are many things to take into an account when looking into cases such as this. As stated by Ymblanter: Whether or not the user (in general, not referring specifically to Enigmaman) has been given the chance (or how many chances and opportunities were given) to improve their edits and behavior following feedback and notices left asking them to stop is something that certainly can be examined and taken into account by the community (if they choose to do so). Another aspect: Whether or not the user, given the feedback or notices left about issues or problems with their edits or actions in the past, have honored such feedback and actually ceased such issues or behaviors and stopped them from happening again. However, as Paul August and many others have pointed out here: judging the issues as a whole will be a balance between these different viewpoints. Whether or not the user was asked to stop the behavior before, and how the user has responded to feedback in the past and worked to put an end to issues - are aspects that can only be considered up to a point depending on the issues and problems. If the issues are eggregious, severe, neglegent, or abusive enough (again, I'm speaking in general and not specifically referring to Enigmaman) - these aspects begin to lose their importance, relevance, and their consideration by the community... :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:42, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And administrators are expected to keep themselves up to date with policy and expectations? If Enigma's actions encroached into gray areas, areas of doubt, then it would be unfair to expect a behavioural change without previous advice. But, man. Most of this stuff is blatantly out of line; calling people "useless", e.g., should not need to be advised against. ——SerialNumber54129 15:12, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- There's a few really odd blocks in there as well. Not wrong as such, just weird. here's an account inserting really unpleasant anti-semitic material, an obvious indef - blocked for 9 1/2 months (?). Or obvious spammers - these should also be indeffed - this one got 1 year but this one only 48 hours. Strange. Black Kite (talk) 15:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Er, what? Enigmaman blocked someone for one year for one edit that wasn't blatant vandalism? The user was trying to put a link to a match in the article, merely in the wrong place. Easy newbie mistake. Unless that was a checkuser block, or an obvious link to a LTA case, that's complete and utter overkill. Anyway, that's enough with the torches and pitchforks, we now need a response. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:18, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fsdget345 (talk · contribs) was probably also editing as 180.245.126.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which would explain the block (assuming the link qualifies as spam). Abecedare (talk) 16:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was a link to an illegal Internet stream of a boxing match. Black Kite (talk) 17:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fsdget345 (talk · contribs) was probably also editing as 180.245.126.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which would explain the block (assuming the link qualifies as spam). Abecedare (talk) 16:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Er, what? Enigmaman blocked someone for one year for one edit that wasn't blatant vandalism? The user was trying to put a link to a match in the article, merely in the wrong place. Easy newbie mistake. Unless that was a checkuser block, or an obvious link to a LTA case, that's complete and utter overkill. Anyway, that's enough with the torches and pitchforks, we now need a response. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:18, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Ben reviewing this and it looks, like, really bad not sure anyone documented this one yet: "21:08, 20 January 2019 Enigmaman (talk | contribs | block) blocked The Guy From Your Local Walmart (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 1 decade, 2 years, 2 hours, 9 minutes and 36 seconds (account creation blocked) (Vandalism-only account: complete twit)" so add that to the pile of weird block with unecessary personal attacks. As someone who, sadly, has particpated in a number of arbcom cases involving admin abuse, both as a party and an arbitrator, I do think there is a case here that the committee would accept, given the amount of evidence already present in this thread and Eningmaman's aparent reluctance to address these issues. (but I'd really like it if someone else were the "designated asshole" who file it and presents the evidence this time around.) Beeblebrox (talk) 16:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox - With deep disappointment and regret, I can be that person and file a request at ArbCom. I think that a request and case is warranted given all of the issues uncovered here. They're too plentiful in number and too concerning and against policy to argue otherwise... :-( ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 17:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support opening an Arbcom case with much regret. Enigmaman has had sufficient time to post something... even if just a "Hey everybody, I need a little time to lay out a response." Also I very strongly suggest that Enigmaman refrain from any use of the tools until this business is resolved. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am going to go against the crowd here and say that unless there is reason for emergency action to stop ongoing abuse, any user should get at least three days (a week is better) to respond to an ANI filing that has no previous warnings. People take long weekends off. They have computer failures or ISP problems that take a few days to fix. They spend a couple of nights in jail. They have to drop everything to travel out of state because of an unexpected death. Or maybe they just need two or three days to think about it before resigning under a cloud and ending the ANI case that way. Enigmaman has 12 years and 40,000 edits with a clean block log. We can wait a week for him to respond. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- All of the above :) ^^^ but, except for the fact that the bloody thing has already been filed, I agree with Macon, a few days wait—for explanations, discussions, cooling offs?—can't do any harm. ——SerialNumber54129 18:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Agree. We all know what's almost certainly going on here, but there's no emergency and no reason not to give benefit of the chronological doubt. EEng 18:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Minor correction: I was under the impression from the discussion above that this was without warning. I just looked at the arbcom case and saw a link to User talk:Bloger#Yet another warning. If anyone has other examples of such warnings, please post them here or at arbcom. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Agree. We all know what's almost certainly going on here, but there's no emergency and no reason not to give benefit of the chronological doubt. EEng 18:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- All of the above :) ^^^ but, except for the fact that the bloody thing has already been filed, I agree with Macon, a few days wait—for explanations, discussions, cooling offs?—can't do any harm. ——SerialNumber54129 18:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
ArbCom case request
- Given the issues found in this ANI discussion, the concerns expressed by the community, and the comments made here supporting an ArbCom case request be filed - I have filed a request for arbitration regarding this situation here. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Is there any logical explanation for his RevDel actions on Logan Lynn? He's redacted one of his own edit summaries (hiding the fact that he applied protection, perhaps to hide a link that was in his edit summary), four other edit summaries (for no discernible reason), and four usernames (again, no discernible reason). ST47 (talk) 18:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That was done after a personal appeal to me from a user who said he was being WP:OUTED as a result of his edits on that page. I have no reason to doubt what he said. He asked me to remove his username from the history, so I did so. Anything that was removed from the history was strictly for OUTing concerns. Enigmamsg 18:39, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That explanation sounds reasonable, thank you. ST47 (talk) 18:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- It looks a little weird to me actully. I'm assuming you know something that isn't obvious. FYI outing concerns should generally be referred to the oversight team. If there is a real possibility of outing the edits should be supressed entirely and only oversighters can do that. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That explanation sounds reasonable, thank you. ST47 (talk) 18:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- That was done after a personal appeal to me from a user who said he was being WP:OUTED as a result of his edits on that page. I have no reason to doubt what he said. He asked me to remove his username from the history, so I did so. Anything that was removed from the history was strictly for OUTing concerns. Enigmamsg 18:39, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Is there any logical explanation for his RevDel actions on Logan Lynn? He's redacted one of his own edit summaries (hiding the fact that he applied protection, perhaps to hide a link that was in his edit summary), four other edit summaries (for no discernible reason), and four usernames (again, no discernible reason). ST47 (talk) 18:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Community sanction
@Oshwah and Boing! said Zebedee: Is there a particular reason for an ArbCom case instead of community sanctions, because in the end, we think we know what we are getting at. Cases would just take more time and waste everyone's time. Anyone can see that Enigmaman has failed WP:ADMINACCT at every step. --qedk (t 桜 c) 21:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't raise it, but there's no community method for desysop if that's one of the possible solutions - only ArbCom can do that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- There's no community-established procedure for deadminship, but per WP:DESYSOP (and any DR convention), community sanctions can be imposed to revoke administrator permissions (like any other permissions), or is there something I'm missing out? --qedk (t 桜 c) 21:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The listed methods are Resignation, Inactivity, Administrators open to recall, Arbitration requests, Emergency and Death. It also says "There have been proposals to implement other means of doing this, such as a process mirroring the adminship request process. See Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship and Wikipedia:Removing administrator rights/Proposal." If you follow those links you'll see the perpetual failed attempts to implement a direct community desysop process. Crats won't remove admin rights as a result of a community discussion - Wikipedia:Removing administrator rights/Proposal is a failed "proposal for the granting to bureaucrats the ability to remove sysop flags, or "desysop"", which leaves ArbCom or Stewards - and unless they think there's a case for a global lock, Stewards aren't going to interfere in en.wiki admin appointments. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The process for community sanctions is, as far as I am aware, entirely open. And it is entirely possible that the community could TBAN someone from making any administrative actions pending an appeal to the community. This has AFAIK never been tested, and ArbCom will likely bristle at the thought. But it is allowable under current policy as far as I'm aware, and as of about a year ago, I checked and asked fairly thoroughly. GMGtalk 23:22, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- WP:TBAN is quite clear on what a topic ban is. A ban from making any administrative actions is not a TBAN, as it would not be a ban from editing a topic - so no, the community can not TBAN someone from something that is not a topic. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- There's no community-established procedure for deadminship, but per WP:DESYSOP (and any DR convention), community sanctions can be imposed to revoke administrator permissions (like any other permissions), or is there something I'm missing out? --qedk (t 桜 c) 21:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- As noted above, only Arbcom can direct an involuntary desysoping. (In theory I think JIMBO may still have that authority, but it's a little like the Royal Veto. In practical terms, it's probably a dead letter.) That said, I have always felt that in really clear situations a motion of "No Confidence" by the community should have the effect of prodding a wayward admin to do the right thing. But such a motion would not be binding so if faced with an obstinate admin you are still stuck with Arbcom. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
TBAN
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Propose a TBAN for User:Enigmaman from taking any administrative actions indefinitely, pending an appeal to the community to lift the ban, which can be made one year from the time the ban is enacted, and 6 months thereafter, if the appeal is unsuccessful. ArbCom is intended to be the venue of last resort, and pending this decision we have not yet exhausted all possibility for community based resolution. It is therefor not yet within ArbCom's remit. GMGtalk 00:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support As proposer. GMGtalk 00:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- GreenMeansGo: Could you clarify what "pending an appeal from the community to lift the ban" means? As worded, the intended duration, appeal process, and end-conditions of the proposed TBAN don't seem clear. Thanks! :) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/their)|😹|✝️|John 15:12|☮️|🍂|T/C 00:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pretty sure GMG meant until ban is enacted till it is appealed, essentially indefinitely. I've made it so it can be appealed after a year at first, and 6 months therafter. @GreenMeansGo: Feel free to revert if you do not like my version. --qedk (t 桜 c) 07:58, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- GreenMeansGo: Could you clarify what "pending an appeal from the community to lift the ban" means? As worded, the intended duration, appeal process, and end-conditions of the proposed TBAN don't seem clear. Thanks! :) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/their)|😹|✝️|John 15:12|☮️|🍂|T/C 00:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds almost like a community desysop action which I favor as a good option in general. Much faster and better than an ArbComm case. No opinion about this situation in particular. Legacypac (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The arbcom request is likely to be accepted and even if the committee bounces it back to the community, we should take our time in systematically gathering the evidence, and evaluating it and Enigmaman's response, before deciding on appropriate action. The diffs provided so far are certainly concerning IMO but there is no emergency here. Over the next few weeks, Enigmaman's edits and esp. any admin actions they (inadvisedly) choose to take are sure to be closely scrutinized and any indication of them going rogue will be met with a swift block. Barring that we all can step back and let the process play out. I recommend closing this ANI report for now; interested editors can instead help by gathering evidence (off-wiki or in their userspace) relevant to the case for presentation at the arbcom case or at WP:AN, depending upon where the case finally lands. Abecedare (talk) 01:35, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- For context, Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 147 § Community de-adminship processes is the last discussion I'm aware of that discussed if the community is able to ban an editor from using administrative privileges. isaacl (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to have been started by me, I was pretty surprised to see it after all this time. --qedk (t 桜 c) 07:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Just to summarize for anyone not willing to delve into it: people were surely into the idea of having a process (except Tony and one another) but were reluctant that it would be feasible, given the general unwillingness of the community towards change, better or worse. I eventually let the thread be as I was confident people didn't feel strongly enough about it to care and change convention so me making any move on the issue would essentially fall flat on its face. --qedk (t 桜 c) 14:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to have been started by me, I was pretty surprised to see it after all this time. --qedk (t 桜 c) 07:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Still around see Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall. Paul August ☎ 17:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose for both procedural and policy reasons. Probably we should archive all this and see the last show of the circus before it leaves town. Lourdes 05:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support in principle and the aim as well. This is not a witch hunt, this is a stop-gap to prevent further violation of core Wikipedia policies by a community-elected administrator. I do not find any logic in having 3 months wasted over this at dramacom with absolutely no guarantee that it will end in the way it is supposed to. --qedk (t 桜 c) 07:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - This is not a reasonable proposal. ArbCom is intended to be the venue of last resort for disputes, not blatant admin abuse. Per WP:ADMIN#Arbitration Committee review, ArbCom may step in at any point if they feel an admin-related issue is serious enough. Based on the WP:RFAR, Arbcom is obviously going to accept the case, which means that this sort of "failsafe" is not necessary. In the event that Enigma is brazen enough to abuse the tools going forward, which I don't think is a realistic scenario, Arbcom can and would simply perform an emergency desysop pending formal desysopping. This AN/I thread is, at this point, an unnecessary and fairly-meaningless fork of a pending ArbCom case, and it should be closed so as to not distract from the actual case. ~Swarm~ {sting} 08:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose both on procedural grounds and on the merits. This is an attempt at forcing a community-desysop process through the back door. We don't have a community desysop process, because all such processes that have been suggested over the years have been rejected, and if we ever were to install one, it very certainly wouldn't look anything like this here. On the merits of the case: I see one weird (and as yet unexplained) block from the other day that was clearly bizarre and suggests a profound momentary failure of judgment, but didn't do any factual harm. I see another arguably bad block that was a year ago and wasn't followed up on. Apart from that, I see trivialities like occasionally swearing at vandals, which definitely don't warrant a desysoping, plus several accusations being bandied about that are evidently factually false. Let Arbcom look at the situation if they think there's more than meets the eye, but handling it via mob-with-pitchforks is not the way to go. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - this is with ArbCom now. GiantSnowman 08:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Like it or not, we have agreed at English Wikipedia that Arbcom makes such decisions. Its processes are bureaucratic and long-winded, but it has the power to perform an emergency desysop pending the final decision if necessary. Continuing a parallel process here only adds to the drama. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Topic bans are bans from editing specific topics, and the admin tool set is not a topic. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:30, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- To expand a little, "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area" - per WP:TBAN. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee:-What about the scores of TBan(s) that restrict users from moving any article, without initiating a RM or something like that? ∯WBGconverse 13:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think those are fine, as I see moving articles (ie renaming) as being part of the editorial process and coming under its umbrella - and within the intended scope of TBAN policy. But bending TBANs as a way round the community's unwillingness to implement a desysop procedure is not, in my view, within their intended scope. I'm a long-term supporter of community desysop, but the consensus has always been against it, and I will oppose attempts to evade that consensus by stretching the use of policies not intended for the purpose. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- (I've just re-read that, and I want to stress that I don't mean anyone is deliberately trying to evade community consensus - I really just mean that I think proposals like this are contrary to that consensus. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC))
- Well, call it a TBAN, editing restriction or what have you. Perhaps choosing to call it a TBAN is unnecessarily distracting. Either way it would be a community sanction restricting on-wiki actions according to the disruption present in the particular circumstances. The community can and has enacted tailored sanctions of all sorts, and if we can reach a consensus to enact revert restrictions, restrictions from using rollback, huggle, from XfD, from XfA, and everything else under the sun (including at least one community restriction on "special signatures"), then I don't see a policy based reason to think that's limited by anything other than consensus. It wouldn't be a community desysop, and the person subject to it would not require an RfA to overturn, but merely the consensus of uninvolved editors.
- Having said that, while I was interested to see if this might be a good test case, it doesn't seem that it is. So anyone can feel free to close this, and everyone can settle in for an ArbCom case that I presume will be worked out some time before Autumn. GMGtalk 17:31, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- An editing restriction prohibiting the use of administrative privileges would be functionally equivalent to a removal of privileges, and a removal of the restriction by community consensus would be functionally equivalent to a restoration of privileges. I agree with Boing! said Zebedee in that a community consensus for removing and restoring privileges in this manner is needed, given the history of past discussions on this topic. isaacl (talk) 19:14, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee:-What about the scores of TBan(s) that restrict users from moving any article, without initiating a RM or something like that? ∯WBGconverse 13:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- To expand a little, "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area" - per WP:TBAN. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - this is not the right venue. Are we seriously saying that an admin, even one under a cloud, cannot take adminstrative actions such as revdel in the case of serious BLP violations, or block a vandal that they come across, merely because there is an ARBCOM case
pendingopen? That is the effect of the proposal as written. The admin in question should be under no doubt that their every move will be scrutinised by some editors, and is advised to be extremely cautious in the use of the tools in the meantime. But a TBAN is not the answer. Let ARBCOM do the job they are there to do. Mjroots (talk) 09:56, 15 April 2019 (UTC) - Oppose mainly per Phil Bridger. If there was a problem with Enigmaman using their tools during the ArbCom case, ArbCom can enact a motion to prohibit them from doing so. No need for the rest of us to interfere with ArbCom's handling of this case as they see fit. Regards SoWhy 10:03, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pile-on oppose; this is a blatant attempt to slip a "guilty until proven innocent" process in via the back door. Regardless of whether you like it or not, Wikipedia's longstanding process is that Arbcom makes decisions about desysopping; there are good reasons for that policy and this thread is evidence of one of the primary ones, that angry mobs on drama boards are prone to knee-jerk overreactions whereas the glacial pace of Arb cases allows calm examination of whether something is actually a serious problem or just a momentary blip. If you don't like one of our policies then start an RFC to change that policy. ‑ Iridescent 08:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry at Spygate from r/The_Donald
There has been a spike in editing on Talk:Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump). It is complicated to summarize, but Starship.paint has found that it is a meatpuppetry campaign courtesy of r/The_Donald. Also pinging BullRangifer, Soibangla, Objective3000, Someguy1221. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Muboshgu - I'd like to correct that description. What I found is that r/the_donald recently has been featuring, and linking to the Spygate page on Wikipedia, and the posters and commenters have been very displeased that Spygate is being described as a false conspiracy theory. starship.paint ~ KO 05:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
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Plus even newer links [53] [54] starship.paint ~ KO 14:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I opened an SPI at [55] two weeks ago after I received a warning at AN/3 for reverting a bunch of new editors in this article. I suspected they were all coming from somewhere off-Wiki. O3000 (talk) 10:32, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Who cares? The article is bad and more eyes on it are desperately needed. Please don't canvass only the sympathetic editors Muboshgu. Also, you are involved at the article and should not be using your tools. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Mr Ernie: - how is Muboshgu misusing his tools? I wasn’t even aware he was an admin. More eyes aren’t necessarily good when the people coming don’t know how Wikipedia works. Its not good if instead of using reliable sources people use their own definition. It’s good if people follow the rules. It’s bad if people do not follow WP:RS. starship.paint ~ KO 11:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Muboshgu is WP:INVOLVED at the article and used their tools to apply protection here. I never stated this was tool misuse (see the 3rd paragraph of INVOLVED), but in general Muboshgu should not be using admin tools in AmPol topics. That article is in desperate need of more eyes. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- No comment, I’m going to ping Muboshgu to explain his actions. starship.paint ~ KO 12:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Mr Ernie is right. I should have taken the request to WP:RFPP for an uninvolved admin to protect the page. The page became unprotected and a swarm of disruptive editing began and I reacted too quickly. The page needs to be protected, nobody was following WP:BRD, but it should've been someone else to do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu: It was the right thing to do. Controlling influx of disruptive edits to an article is part of an admin's job and easily passes WP:INVOLVED exceptions. Any admin would have done the same. If being politically right is the issue, maybe Muboshgu could have asked another admin for a second opinion but there is no way anyone can call this a bad decision. Admins are expected to do what's needed. --qedk (t 桜 c) 14:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- We have methods of asking for more eyes. Canvassing in an off-wiki conspiracy thread isn't one. O3000 (talk) 13:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
If there was ever a time when WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS apply, it is now. Comments by Barr are being taken as the final arbiter of truth, even though they were uncertain, off-hand, without evidence, spoken to please saying what pleases his boss, and he's pulled back on what he said. Sheesh! -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:18, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- BLP applies to Barr too, and you've no idea if he said what he said "to please his boss." Barr is the Attorney General of the USA, and made a claim to Congress that he thinks spying occured (he also called it unauthorized surveillance). He said he's investigating whether it was adequately predicated or not. Our articles do not reflect this information. Now I know you hold strong opinions of editors who support Trump, but it just might be possible that everyone has a bias that impacts their editing (or reporting), and even our precious "RS" may have gotten some aspects of this story wrong. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Mr Ernie, did you really just say "even our precious "RS" may have gotten some aspects of this story wrong."? And what if they did? What are YOU going to do about it? How would you propose to rectify that situation? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Mr Ernie, I'm still waiting for an answer. I really get tired of experienced editors who show a disregard for our RS policy. We follow that policy, and we only change our content when the RS change. We don't make changes, especially a total reversal of a whole article (in this case) based on weak information, poor sources, or the hem hawing utterances of believers in conspiracy theories, even when they are Barr and Trump. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: my apologies for not answering yet and making you wait a few hours - I made some new friends and was playing the guitar with them. It was great - we nailed a playthrough of All Right Now (but nobody comes close to Paul Kossoff's complete mastery of vibrato) and I had a TON of fun, even if we didn't all speak the same language. Regarding your question, there is nothing I will or can do to go against what RS choose to write on the topics I am interested in. I hope I have not made such changes to any articles. I'm not as good a writer as you, and therefore limit my participation mainly to talk pages of contentious topics, hoping that the more talented editors can use my comments to help improve articles. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I understand. Glad you had a good time. Music is important. I don't know how I'd live without it. Life would be poorer without it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- BullRangifer, would you believe it if I said I actually got goosebumps playing the lead to the Allman Bros. song Blue Sky, harmonizing with another guitarist with whom I could not speak? I do not understand how those young guys from Florida created such an incredible sound that I'm enjoying nearly 50 years later. Let's all take a minute and listen to a favored song or two. Before I was 24, I always thought of what I'd accomplish by the time I was Duane Allman's age when he died. Now that I'm far past, I reflect on that young man's short life and the truly priceless gift he gave to so many. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I can definitely believe it. (Blue Sky) I was a young stoner when I bought Eat a Peach, and we spent many hours enjoying the talents of the Allman Brothers. What a trip! His death came as a huge shock. What a loss. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 23:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- BullRangifer, would you believe it if I said I actually got goosebumps playing the lead to the Allman Bros. song Blue Sky, harmonizing with another guitarist with whom I could not speak? I do not understand how those young guys from Florida created such an incredible sound that I'm enjoying nearly 50 years later. Let's all take a minute and listen to a favored song or two. Before I was 24, I always thought of what I'd accomplish by the time I was Duane Allman's age when he died. Now that I'm far past, I reflect on that young man's short life and the truly priceless gift he gave to so many. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I understand. Glad you had a good time. Music is important. I don't know how I'd live without it. Life would be poorer without it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: my apologies for not answering yet and making you wait a few hours - I made some new friends and was playing the guitar with them. It was great - we nailed a playthrough of All Right Now (but nobody comes close to Paul Kossoff's complete mastery of vibrato) and I had a TON of fun, even if we didn't all speak the same language. Regarding your question, there is nothing I will or can do to go against what RS choose to write on the topics I am interested in. I hope I have not made such changes to any articles. I'm not as good a writer as you, and therefore limit my participation mainly to talk pages of contentious topics, hoping that the more talented editors can use my comments to help improve articles. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
439 posts by 53 users in the last three days
Talk:Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump) has had 439 posts by 53 users in the last three days. That's more that the talk page saw between the creation of the article and four days ago. At what point do we do something about this?
Now I know that the usual easy answer is some sort of temporary protection, but if an admin wants to be a white knight and do a bit of extra work, it might be worthwhile to look at the contributors and apply some WP:NOTHERE blocks. A lot of them have been disruptive on other politics pages, and it looks like it would be pretty easy to identify the few veteran users trying to deal with the flood and the meatpuppets from r/The Donald who are disrupting multiple articles. Or should I compile that list myself and post it at WP:SPI? --Guy Macon (talk)
- Good point. Not only are a number of newcomers NOTHERE, but several of the regulars who attack RS and push conspiracy theories need topic bans. Their lack of competence is quite evident because they show they are more interested in pushing fringe theories found in unreliable sources than in following policy. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, Guy. I agree completely. Allow me to now name a few of the accounts that I suspect of meatpuppetry, for any white knight UNINVOLVED admins:
- Justncase80 (talk · contribs), account inactive for three years prior to this
- KeithCu (talk · contribs), account inactive for a little over a year prior to this
- Tigerman325 (talk · contribs), account inactive for two years prior to this
- SIPPINONTECH (talk · contribs), new account, no edits except the Spygate talk page, where the user acknowledged coming here from r/The_Donald[56], this user has been more upfront and constructive than the others I think
- Moefuzz (talk · contribs), account inactive for almost a year
- I apologize if I made any errors, but this is suspicious behavior. I will now notify these accounts on their talk pages. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was not solicited to come here, and I am not here to "sway consensus." I check Reddit occasionally and did see discussion about this article. However, I didn't decide to create an account and edit simply because I saw a post on Reddit - I am here to correct egregious factual errors in the Spygate article irrespective of how I found the article. Moreover, I believe that the tone and tenor of Muboshgu's commentary on the talk page betrays a profound political bias, and I feel it is more than a little inappropriate for this user to seek administrative punishment against me for suggesting revisions in the talk page in full transparency and good faith. I do not believe I have violated any rules but will respect the Administrator's judgment in any case. I have not even tried to edit the article itself - just provide factual evidence and feedback in the talk page. Happy to answer any further questions. SIPPINONTECH (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- SIPPINONTECH, for the record, I appreciate your forthrightness on why you came to Wikipedia. I am not seeking administrative punishment against you, but rather we are discussing the influx of new editors. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was not solicited to come here, and I am not here to "sway consensus." I check Reddit occasionally and did see discussion about this article. However, I didn't decide to create an account and edit simply because I saw a post on Reddit - I am here to correct egregious factual errors in the Spygate article irrespective of how I found the article. Moreover, I believe that the tone and tenor of Muboshgu's commentary on the talk page betrays a profound political bias, and I feel it is more than a little inappropriate for this user to seek administrative punishment against me for suggesting revisions in the talk page in full transparency and good faith. I do not believe I have violated any rules but will respect the Administrator's judgment in any case. I have not even tried to edit the article itself - just provide factual evidence and feedback in the talk page. Happy to answer any further questions. SIPPINONTECH (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have made the EC protection indefinite and am invoking ACDS post 1932 American Politics. Muboshgu technically should have asked someone else to protect the page, but his reasoning was sound. No harm no foul. I have also logged the protection at WP:AEL. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
This topic has been featured heavily in the news these past few days. Folks interested in learning more naturally come to Wikipedia, and perhaps are surprised that the article is somewhat lacking. They make an account to then help, improve, and participate in Wikipedia. This should be encouraged, not stifled by posts such as this at ANI. If misbehavior occurs, deal with it. Otherwise, WP:BITE applies. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what meatpuppetry is, but no one tells me when to contribute to Wikipedia. I decided to post on the SpyGate talk page because it's amazing to me how there is plenty of publicly available evidence that Trump was spied on, (including a book titled SpyGate) and so it seems unbelievable Wikipedia still calls it a false conspiracy theory. Now, the author of the book (a former cop and secret service agent!) is called a "clown" by longtime Wikipedia editors, and his word is "not to be trusted." That slander keeps them ignorant.
- As I wrote on the talk page, imagine if Bush 43 had been wiretapping Obama, and Wikipedia refused to acknowledge it, and only called it a conspiracy theory. You would think you are living in crazy times. The other amazing thing is how many people here are implicitly defending unauthorized surveillance (by saying it didn't happen) and defending the politicization and weaponization of the US intelligence community. The US federal government has committed crimes, and Wikipedia defends democracy by saying it didn't happen. KeithCu (talk) 21:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @KeithCu: - if you trust Dan Bongino (and even want to use him as a reliable source), you’re probably massively misinformed. Being a former Secret Service agent doesn’t make you reliable. See my example below (the green box) starship.paint ~ KO 22:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to be implying that Obama was wiretapping Trump, and several other crimes. There is not even a hint of evidence of any such. Please don't bring conspiracy theories here. In any case, this is not the place for content disputes. O3000 (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I wrote on the talk page, imagine if Bush 43 had been wiretapping Obama, and Wikipedia refused to acknowledge it, and only called it a conspiracy theory. You would think you are living in crazy times. The other amazing thing is how many people here are implicitly defending unauthorized surveillance (by saying it didn't happen) and defending the politicization and weaponization of the US intelligence community. The US federal government has committed crimes, and Wikipedia defends democracy by saying it didn't happen. KeithCu (talk) 21:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
.The Russia investigation started with information on George Papadopoulos. This has been confirmed twice, first by Republican staff for the House Intelligence Committee in Feburary 2018, [57] then second by Republican congressmen on the House Intelligence Committee in April 2018. [58] However, Dan Bongino, after these two confirmations, makes the opposite assertion in March 2019: not George Papadopoulos, but the Steele dossier, [59] [60] [61] [62] and doubles down at least 4 (!) times. [63] [64] [65] [66] Multiple reliable sources have written in fact checks that the Steele dossier wasn’t the origin, it was George Papadopoulos. Factcheck.org Politifact Associated Press Washington Post Bongino by goes against other RS while never once acknowledges the strongest counterargument for this statement of fact - the House Intelligence Committee which was controlled by Republicans, allies of Trump. Clearly, Bongino has no basis in reality regarding Trump, either by way of ignorance of the House Intelligence Committee, or simply lying about the situation. starship.paint ~ KO 23:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC) |
- I have blocked The3taveren as an obvious sock and KeithCu as clearly NOTHERE. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 19:32, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Feezo: why did you block KeithCu? Please clarify. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Defending Breitbart as a reliable source and IDHT advocating of conspiracy theories are both clear evidence of NOTHERE. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 18:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- All I see is a few talk page edits and 0 mainspace edits. That is not enough for any IDHT territory, what I do see is then your bias clouding your judgment. You don't get a NOTHERE block from a talk page discussion. This was a bad block. And you might want to check the talk page, there is currently a RM discussion there and calling it a conspiracy theory is indeed up for discussion. You should unblock. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Feezo: - Agree with Sir Joseph that this block is unwarranted. There was no disruption warranting an indef. Talk page discussion was ongoing and progress has been made. You've come completely out of nowhere - before April you have basically no posts to the administrator noticeboards. You shouldn't be coming in and dropping blocks like this. You've barely even edited in the last 6 years. Why are you still an administrator? Mr Ernie (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indef block is a bit much, but it's plainly obvious that KeithCu is incapable of making useful contributions to any discussion of American politics. At the very least a topic ban was inevitable if he kept going. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:28, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Defending Breitbart as a reliable source and IDHT advocating of conspiracy theories are both clear evidence of NOTHERE. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 18:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Feezo: why did you block KeithCu? Please clarify. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, these comments by KeithCu in his unblock requests and edit summaries are the opposite of reassuring. I'm getting a strong sense of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS here. starship.paint ~ KO 11:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- [67]What's good is it gives me new material to talk about in my updated Wikipedia chapter
- [68]I would investigate the agenda of people to refuse to admit that a mountain of evidence exist, even while more comes out every day. My agenda is the truth, apparently we are in a tiny minority on the politics portion of Wikipedia, and banning me is easier than fixing Wikipedia falsehoods.
- [69]Why are the media covering up for crimes? Are Wikipedia's "reliable sources" dangerously wrong sometimes? I would hope that the people and companies who lied to us about SpyGate and said it never happened should have their Wikipedia pages reflect, with some sort of Scarlet Letter. End of quotes from KeithCu. starship.paint ~ KO 11:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint:There's a difference between "righting great wrongs" and maintaining WP:NPOV. There is evidence to suggest that the FISA system was abused. Fox news, which is considered a reliable source per WP:RSP, has reported on the abuse of the FISA system/court. Specifically, that have reported on the fact that the FISA court was lied to about the funding behind some of the evidence it was presented. This may or may not have affected the issuance of the FISA warrant, and one would have to defer to WP:RSOPINION before drawing a conclusion from this. However, to completely ignore the sources documenting how the FISA court was lied to would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Based on the article's title, and Keith's assertions, it would seem that the article is completely ignoring evidence that "SpyGate" is not merely a conspiracy theory. Likewise, suggesting a correction to the article is not "righting a great wrong". As far as the RS status of breitbart is concerned, I agree that that should not be discussed here or on the "SpyGate" talk page. Instead, if Keith really wanted to try to get its status changed, they should open a discussion over at a subpage of WP:RSP (I don't recall the exact page off the top of my head). However, the problem with dismissing Keith's claims offhand due to his reliance on breitbart is that FISA "misleading" was documented by Wikipedia's RSs too. Hence, to claim that the FISA court was lied to is not WP:FRINGE or WP:OR, rather, it is a fact that should be noted in the article per WP:DUEWEIGHT and WP:RS. Also, why does it matter that Keith took a wiki-break for a few months/years? I would suggest that we should assume good faith and that we should not attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance (Hanlon's razor). If they made a mistake after their absence it is more probable (to me at least) that they merely forgot some of the rules rather than that they remembered all the rules but decided to break them. Also, per WP:BITE, ignorance of the rules can be a valid defense. Was he even officially warned, or did we jump to an indef ban? Either way, I fail to see how the indef ban on Keith is justified. ElectroChip123 (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I’m not sure if FISA is relevant to the Spygate article as is, which refers to the May/June 2018 allegations. As I have pointed out to other editors, they might be better off creating “Allegations of improper surveillance of the 2016 Trump presidential campaign”, because clearly we are arguing on different matters. Anyway, the rest of your post from
Also, why does it matter that...
does not seem to be a relevant reply to me. I never argued for KeithCu’s block on those rationale. I merely point out that some of his post-block comments are conceding. starship.paint ~ KO 16:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I’m not sure if FISA is relevant to the Spygate article as is, which refers to the May/June 2018 allegations. As I have pointed out to other editors, they might be better off creating “Allegations of improper surveillance of the 2016 Trump presidential campaign”, because clearly we are arguing on different matters. Anyway, the rest of your post from
- I think the issue is that this shows the bias of Wikipedia. Comey himself says that there was a FISA warrant and "intelligence gathering" on Trump's campaign, but doesn't call it spying. Barr says, that is what the definition of spying is, using intelligence to gather information. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: - I fail to see how that is a relevant reply to my post. Is this a general comment? starship.paint ~ KO 14:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Furthermore, it's a talk-page, not mainspace. There was 0 mainspace edits,and even 0 talkpage edits that were disruptive. This was a bad block by an administrator who came out of nowhere and just placed a terrible block. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint:There's a difference between "righting great wrongs" and maintaining WP:NPOV. There is evidence to suggest that the FISA system was abused. Fox news, which is considered a reliable source per WP:RSP, has reported on the abuse of the FISA system/court. Specifically, that have reported on the fact that the FISA court was lied to about the funding behind some of the evidence it was presented. This may or may not have affected the issuance of the FISA warrant, and one would have to defer to WP:RSOPINION before drawing a conclusion from this. However, to completely ignore the sources documenting how the FISA court was lied to would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Based on the article's title, and Keith's assertions, it would seem that the article is completely ignoring evidence that "SpyGate" is not merely a conspiracy theory. Likewise, suggesting a correction to the article is not "righting a great wrong". As far as the RS status of breitbart is concerned, I agree that that should not be discussed here or on the "SpyGate" talk page. Instead, if Keith really wanted to try to get its status changed, they should open a discussion over at a subpage of WP:RSP (I don't recall the exact page off the top of my head). However, the problem with dismissing Keith's claims offhand due to his reliance on breitbart is that FISA "misleading" was documented by Wikipedia's RSs too. Hence, to claim that the FISA court was lied to is not WP:FRINGE or WP:OR, rather, it is a fact that should be noted in the article per WP:DUEWEIGHT and WP:RS. Also, why does it matter that Keith took a wiki-break for a few months/years? I would suggest that we should assume good faith and that we should not attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance (Hanlon's razor). If they made a mistake after their absence it is more probable (to me at least) that they merely forgot some of the rules rather than that they remembered all the rules but decided to break them. Also, per WP:BITE, ignorance of the rules can be a valid defense. Was he even officially warned, or did we jump to an indef ban? Either way, I fail to see how the indef ban on Keith is justified. ElectroChip123 (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
A conspiracy theory cannot be false
According to Wikipedia, a conspiracy theory is [...] the unnecessary assumption of conspiracy when other explanations are more probable
. If we only have 'rather improbable', we don't have false, because false would at least requires a 0 probability. Don't start saying that Wikipedia is not a Reliable Source about the Truth©: Wikipedia is a Reliable Source about how to parse words and terms used in a Wikipedia discussion. If someone was saying "Trump launched Spygate as a good designed campaign to do such and such", this could be a conspiracy theory. Because another explanation comes to mind, i.e. "Trump launched Spygate due to an irrepressible compulsion to tweet something, day after day". And then we can weight the sources to say which is the more probable explanation. Saying "Stefan Halper was approaching the Trump campaign advisers in order to learn how to win a presidential campaign" would be a conspiracy theory, because the odds are very low indeed, whatever could be the alternate hypothesis (remember: at that time, Democrats were so sure to win). But saying that "... to spy the Trump's campaign" is a conspiracy theory would need --by definition-- to provide an alternate, more probable, explanation. To sell chocolates, may be ? When we have a "low quality assertion", it suffices to say so, because this can be backed by sources. Pldx1 (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pldx1, by definition, any theory is more probable than one for which the probability is zero. Ergo, you are wrong in the first—though ignoring what you quoted for two of your own words is not a good start. In the second, Wikipedia discussions preferentially draw definitions from projectspace pages, not mainspace articles, i.e. Wikipedia:Notability and not Notability and we note that such definitions may differ. As for when a lack of conspiracies can be considered more probable, I draw you to Occam's razor, and the more specific Hanlon's razor. Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- When you draw at random a number x among the set of all the integers, the probability of "x=3" is exactly 0. This doesn't imply that "x=3" is false. If you obtain "x=3", this doesn't prove that the process was wrong, but if you obtain ten 3 in a row, this is no more a conspiracy theory to guess that the process was not uniformly random. And here, if one only want to say that, one more time, this Trump emitted a "low quality assertion", it suffices to tell it that way, since this is provable, and avoid the "conspiracy theory" formulation that is not provable, and only leads to never ending and useless discussions. Pldx1 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pldx1 Technically the probability "approaches zero", it does not "equal zero". If it was equal to zero, then over an infinite amount of draws, x would never be equal to 3. But 3 is in the set of integers, and one is selecting an integer at random. Thus it is possible that x = 3. Hence, we have arrived at a paradox: x can be equal to 3, because 3 is an integer, but x cannot ever be 3 because the probability of that event is 0. This is a contradiction, and given that 3 is an integer, by modus ponens we have that the assumption that probability x = 3 is zero is false.
- When you draw at random a number x among the set of all the integers, the probability of "x=3" is exactly 0. This doesn't imply that "x=3" is false. If you obtain "x=3", this doesn't prove that the process was wrong, but if you obtain ten 3 in a row, this is no more a conspiracy theory to guess that the process was not uniformly random. And here, if one only want to say that, one more time, this Trump emitted a "low quality assertion", it suffices to tell it that way, since this is provable, and avoid the "conspiracy theory" formulation that is not provable, and only leads to never ending and useless discussions. Pldx1 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've seen "false conspiracy theory" come up so many times in other articles, and it is correct that there is no such thing as a false conspiracy theory. At the heard, a conspiracy theory is a theory about how something happened or the like, so it can be accepted, or it can be disproven or rejected, but it can't be false because there's no "truth" aspect of the theory. Even in the case where there's a mountain of evidence that clearly shows that none of the events were even possible, that's not saying the theory was false, it was just wholly disproven. A conspiracy theory can be built on false information but still as a theory, it's not "true" or "false", but "accepted" or "rejected" or some other state like that. --Masem (t) 16:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am genuinely confused as to what is going on here. Let's accept these premises for the sake of argument: (1) the idea that NASA faked the moon landing(s) is a conspiracy theory; and (2) the moon landing(s) actually occurred. Surely said conspiracy theory is then "false?" We're straying a bit too close to Karl Popper here, but it seems to me that some conspiracy theories are falsifiable, even if some are not? Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Editing on SNC-Lavalin Affair by User:Curly Turkey and others
Hi, I'd like to get an outside look at the talk page discussions and article edits on this page. Certain edits by Curly Turkey have I think been uncivil. ("this kind of bullshit", "Jesus Christ, this is exasperating. (...) Do I have to hold your hand and walk you through our sourcing guidlines?", "Aside from your contempt for our sourcing guidelines, you seem to have a vested interest in including "LavScam" in the lead paragraph", "don't make a fool of yourself, Legacypac", "The belligerence some of these editors continue to show—and the facile dismissal of all evidence provided—demonstrates this is a behavioural issue that won't be solved through discussion. The bad faith is so thick you can cut it with a knife—just take a look at Legacypac's FUD that I'm pushing some unnamed "agenda" below." (Referencing this by Legacypac), "I've brought you to task over the intransigent, bad-faith, POV-pushing, policy-violating manner in which it is presented. ANI will decide whether you'll get away with it.")
Other edits have had less than civil remarks in the edit summaries, like "a single-mindedness that should be treated with great suspicion", "WP:WEIGHT is WP:POLICY; if you continue to violate policy, we can sort this out at WP:ANI, if you'd like", "learn how to use a source"
I am also concerned about certain of their arguments regarding sources, but I don't know if this is the right place to talk about that. All other editors currently in the discussion also have disagreements with many of their policy arguments, and accusations of misbehaviour of different types have been raised by others. I have tried to be calm and reasonable, as well as to ask for more specificity in P&G citations, but I don't feel it's helped much.
I have said something to Curly which I'm not sure about civility status on: "You don't need to ping me twice in the same reply to me on a page I'm watching. It comes off as aggressive and condescending, which I'm sure wasn't your intention." I would like some outside advice or input, or something, on the whole state of the discussion and what the bar for civility is, because I thought it was higher than this. The relevant talk page sections begin at Curly Turkey Edits. Curly has also opened a section on my talk page, Sourcing, about a couple reverts I made which make me think I've lost my patience. Safrolic (talk) 05:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Now User:Bradv has started edit warring [70] (second removal) and misrepresenting the talkpags discussion. When I reverted them once, adding yet another ref, they claimed it was all right wing media. Curly turkey needs a topic ban and Bradv needs a talking to. Google LavScam and look at how pretty much every media outlet in Canada and places like CNN (hardly right wing) are using this term. This is a politically charged topic and our job is to follow the socerces not whitewash the page and downplay everything. If many many media outlets call something X we also note that in the lede. Legacypac (talk) 06:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Legacypac, I took a look at the article in response to the conversation started here, and saw a pretty glaring NPOV issue right off the bat. I've now started an RfC. – bradv🍁 06:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there is a glaring NPOV it is because Curly turkey has been butchering the page. You never participated in the talkpage discussion. Explain your edit warring and removal of three sources. Legacypac (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- So ... you're personally attacking every editor who calls out your POV-pushing ... Littleolive oil, myself, Bradv ... who next? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there is a glaring NPOV it is because Curly turkey has been butchering the page. You never participated in the talkpage discussion. Explain your edit warring and removal of three sources. Legacypac (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Suspected astroturfing at SNC-Lavalin affair
The following is an incomplete draft of an ANI report I've been working on. Long as it is, many issues and diffs are yet to come. Sorry I did not have the time to make it more concise and readable. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
While attempting to copyedit SNC-Lavalin affair, I kept running into sourcing issues: description of something as "illegal" where none of the three cited sources did; description of a hashtag as a "colloquialsim", later reverted three times[71][72][73] with the same source about the term as a hashtag; Padding of a quotation with multiple sources, when only one gave the full quote; and so on ...
I've tried to fix the article in various ways: adding sources, rewording, and removing inappropriate sources. I've run into considerable pushback from other editors there, including one who asserts sources are "not required to support all the material in the paragraph, that's ridiculous" while removing a [better source needed] tag.
The most concerning behaviour has been the insistence on including the term "LavScam" in the lead sentence. The term is one of a large number of terms that have been used to describe the issue, including "Wilson-Raybould scandal", "PMO scandal", "Trudeau scandal", and a list of variations of the article title that I removed as redundant and predictable. The only term the editors have fought to restore is "LavScam", despite the fact that several terms (that are not variations of the current title) return a greater number of Google hits (see screenshots).
Early on, I characterized the article's issues as "sloppy", but the single-minded pushback over "LavScam" has made me suspicious. I searched for how the media used this term and found it rare or nonexistent in outlets such as CBC News, the National Post, and the Toronto Star, but the favoured term in the right-wing tabloid the Toronto Sun—in fact, two thirds of hits in a Google News search are from this single source ("Lavscam": 4940 hits, '"Lavscam" -torontosun.com': 1,650 hits). To put things in perspective: Trudeau Lavalin: 665,000 hits; Trudeau Lavalin -LavScam: 655,000 hits. "LavScam" barely registers at all, and a supermajority of hits come from a single source.
I then went back through the article talk page and found a previous dispute these editors had had with User:Littleolive oil over who to highlight in the lead. The affair is a divisive one in Canada, and there is no consensus over who is to blame. Legacypac repsonded with this POV:
The AG being Wilson-Raybould; newssources differ on who is to blame, and many of them have named the scandal after Wilson-Raybould, the Prime Minister, or SNC-Lavalin.
Legacypac's first edit to the talk page was commentary "The most interesting part is how SNC paid for the son of a dictator to tour Canada hiring expensive call girls for him." Legacypac and Littleolive then engaged in some editwarring until this comment was finally removed: [74] [75][76][77][78]. Legacypac clearly has a POV and has a history of fighting for it on this article. Other editors who have participated include Harris Seldon, Darryl Kerrigan, and Safrolic.
- ... Work in progress: Persistent WP:IDONTHEARTHAT behaviour, and dismissal of empirical evidence and policies, including WP:INTEGRITY, WP:WEIGHT, WP:OR, and WP:SYNTH ...
The consistent pushback against my attempts to clean up the article's sourcing, dismissal of numerous policies, single-minded focus on the term "LavScam", explicit expressions of POVs ... these have me suspicious of an astroturfing campaign there. At the very least, these editors have demonstrated an unwillingness to respect Wikipedia's sitewide sourcing policies and, consciously or not, have repeatedly introduced and reinforced (sometimes through editwarring) POV into a politically-sensitive article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Re: "not required to support all the material in the paragraph, that's ridiculous", that was my error- I thought we were talking about a paragraph with multiple citations for specific sentences, and that you were saying the source for only the last sentence, was also required to support all the material in the paragraph I thought was cited already. It was that leap/reaction which I was referring to above when I said I think I've lost my patience. Safrolic (talk) 08:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- There was and is material in that paragraph that does not appear in any of the citations in the paragraph. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- My sin here, and that of some others, has simply been disagreeing with Curly Turkey on the question of whether the term LavScam should be included. There seems to be some question about other edits and sourcing but I don't believe I have "participated" in that conduct. My disagreement with Turkey was limited, I believe, to placing the term LavScam back in the article when others agreed it should be there (Turkey excluded) and disagreeing with Turkey in the Talk page. It is regrettable that we find ourselves here. There have been assumptions of bad faith largely all around (by myself included). It is clear though that on the distinct issue of the inclusion of LavScam in the article, which seems to have become the main lightning rod here, Curly Turkey has formed the view that others cannot disagree with him on this issue without acting in bad faith. That is regrettable. That is why we are here.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- There was and is material in that paragraph that does not appear in any of the citations in the paragraph. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Re: "not required to support all the material in the paragraph, that's ridiculous", that was my error- I thought we were talking about a paragraph with multiple citations for specific sentences, and that you were saying the source for only the last sentence, was also required to support all the material in the paragraph I thought was cited already. It was that leap/reaction which I was referring to above when I said I think I've lost my patience. Safrolic (talk) 08:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Update: there's now an editwar ongoing between Legacypac and Bradv over "LavScam" in the lead,[79][80][81] in the middle of which Legacypac removed a {{Cite check}} template, despite the number of problematic citations that continue to turn up. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Check his diffs carefully because he is not being very accurate here. Just as anexample I removed a check cite tag while adding another cite. Legacypac (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is a straight-up lie—not only did Legacypac not add a cite, no cite has been added by any user since that edit. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:11, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think he's referring to his edit immediately before that one [82], where he adds a third reference, to the Toronto Sun, in addition to the two he restored after bradv removed the lavscam thing. I don't think it was a good source, or a good chain of edits, or that it addressed the actual concern re: the lavscam thing, or that that specific bit was the only reason you put that tag up. But I do think it's inaccurate and unfair to call what he said here a straight-up lie. Safrolic (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Does not compute: Legacypac's edit comment was "Don't need that tag", and the {{Check cite}} tags the entire article, which I've been systematically checking over the sources of for more WP:INTEGRITY violations. No, Legacypac was straight-up lying and spreading FUD. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think he's referring to his edit immediately before that one [82], where he adds a third reference, to the Toronto Sun, in addition to the two he restored after bradv removed the lavscam thing. I don't think it was a good source, or a good chain of edits, or that it addressed the actual concern re: the lavscam thing, or that that specific bit was the only reason you put that tag up. But I do think it's inaccurate and unfair to call what he said here a straight-up lie. Safrolic (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is a straight-up lie—not only did Legacypac not add a cite, no cite has been added by any user since that edit. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:11, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Check his diffs carefully because he is not being very accurate here. Just as anexample I removed a check cite tag while adding another cite. Legacypac (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Nationality on Natalie Wood
I assume this change to her opening sentence is wrong. BTW, is there better place to have a bio reviewed for such changes? The last time I asked an editor to check on an edit to a bio I got slammed for proxy editing and had my sentence extended. Thanks.--Light show (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Just about anywhere apart from here would be a better place, the most obvious place being Talk:Natalie Wood. This board is for behavioural issues that need admin attention, not for content issues that can be sorted out by editors without the need for admin rights. I don't see anything malicious about that edit, but simply a slight over-enthusiasm for the hyphenated-American form based on Wood's parentage. I see that another editor has reverted the change. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- The correct place would be WP:BLPN I would say. FWIW Ethnicity/origin should not be included per WP:MOSETHNICITY. GiantSnowman 16:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Since Natalie Wood has been dead for 37 years, BLPN is not the correct place to discuss this. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:32, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- The correct place would be WP:BLPN I would say. FWIW Ethnicity/origin should not be included per WP:MOSETHNICITY. GiantSnowman 16:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Light show is topic banned from all biographies and should not even be discussing this anywhere. Someone else can spot and clean up potential problems with biographies. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not always. Since another nationality discussion, with an RFC and a unanimous consensus to state it correctly, was subsequently ignored and even made worse, per MOS. --Light show (talk) 17:35, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Per NinjaRonotPirate and WP:RESTRICTIONS, and I quote: "Light show is indefinitely topic banned from any edits relating to biographies of any kind, broadly construed." Light show should have learned from the last time they got slammed that they are not to do any editing of any sort, including talk pages, user talk pages, or here, regarding ANYTHING related to any biographical article. Like, they don't exist for you. You are not allowed any input of any sort. Per WP:BMB, you don't get a "pass" on this because you're trying to do your editing through WP:ANI rather than directly. Please don't do this again. --Jayron32 17:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- What do you suggest for allowance from vandalism? --Light show (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I suggest you allow one of the other 47,447,956 users to get it instead. You're not necessary. --Jayron32 17:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- What Jayron32 said, and, anyway, that's a red herring that bears no relation to this case. This was nothing like vandalism. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- If it's a severe BLP violation, report it to WP:AIV and mention that you are unable to revert it due to your topic ban, that will be good enough. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have blocked Light show for one week for violating their topic ban. I consider that pretty lenient since their last block was for three months starting last August. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I explained what I consider to be mitigating factors on their talk page. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: Beeblebrox (talk · contribs) last blocked LS for three months for trying to do end-runs around the TBAN; saying that it isn't a "real" violation (I know you didn't actually say this; I'm saying that any wikilawyer worth his salt would find a way to interpret what you said as meaning this) is not a good idea, since this user has had ample opportunity to figure out that "broadly construed" means that talking shit about biographical articles on a noticeboard is not acceptable, especially given that his last block was specifically for this kind of edit. Yeah, you did block him, so it's not like you're encouraging this kind of behaviour, but it seems like this pattern of finding new ways to get around the TBAN is just going to continue indefinitely, and resetting to one week with what amounts to "you found a new way to violate your TBAN without technically violating it" sets a dangerous precedent in cases like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hijiri88, I have not set a precedent, dangerous or not, and this is not "resetting". I explained my reasoning on the user talk page. If the next violation is more egregious, I will block for a year or indefinitely. Thanks, though, for your opinion, but I would be grateful if you avoided putting words into my mouth. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW, I thought I was quite clear that my intention was not to put words in your mouth, but to show how easy it would be to do so. And I'm aware of your reasoning, which is why I directly responded to it. (It was actually a last-minute decision to post the above here rather than on LS's talk page immediately below said reasoning.) The recent good contributions to non-biographical topics point is just as unconvincing to me, but for reasons that are both more subjective and more complicated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:41, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hijiri88, I have not set a precedent, dangerous or not, and this is not "resetting". I explained my reasoning on the user talk page. If the next violation is more egregious, I will block for a year or indefinitely. Thanks, though, for your opinion, but I would be grateful if you avoided putting words into my mouth. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Cullen328: Beeblebrox (talk · contribs) last blocked LS for three months for trying to do end-runs around the TBAN; saying that it isn't a "real" violation (I know you didn't actually say this; I'm saying that any wikilawyer worth his salt would find a way to interpret what you said as meaning this) is not a good idea, since this user has had ample opportunity to figure out that "broadly construed" means that talking shit about biographical articles on a noticeboard is not acceptable, especially given that his last block was specifically for this kind of edit. Yeah, you did block him, so it's not like you're encouraging this kind of behaviour, but it seems like this pattern of finding new ways to get around the TBAN is just going to continue indefinitely, and resetting to one week with what amounts to "you found a new way to violate your TBAN without technically violating it" sets a dangerous precedent in cases like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I explained what I consider to be mitigating factors on their talk page. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have blocked Light show for one week for violating their topic ban. I consider that pretty lenient since their last block was for three months starting last August. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- What do you suggest for allowance from vandalism? --Light show (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
It seems to me that User:Light show either doesn't understand what they're doing wrong or what a indefinite topic ban actually is, or they do understand but are trying to find ways to indulge in their particular obsessions. Note this in their initial request above: The last time I asked an editor to check on an edit to a bio I got slammed for proxy editing and had my sentence extended. [emphasis added]. Since it's an indefinite topic ban, "extending" it is not physically possible.
This is the same claim they made the last time they were blocked, two weeks after yet another denied appeal: I forgot. Since there was no actual rationale for extending the ban another six months [emphasis added] due to my request, other than two editors' asking that I first display an act of contrition, I guess it didn't register. --Light show (talk) 01:18, 18 August 2018 (UTC) --Calton | Talk 23:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indefinite bans (usually) have a 6-month moratorium on appeals. That is, a user may only request a lifting of the ban once every 6 months. Each such request resets the clock on requesting an appeal, as do any violations of the ban; thus a user may not request an appeal of their ban for a minimum of 6 months after any of the following 1) the ban is placed 2) they appeal their ban or 3) they violate their ban. It is item #3 whose clock is reset for LightShow. Every time they violate their ban, the clock is reset on their ability to appeal. This is generally true for many, if not most, indefinite bans. --Jayron32 13:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am well aware of that. And he wasn't talking about appeals, he was talking about the bans themselves -- or are you saying that there's some way to "extend" an indefinite ban? Maybe "infinity plus one year", or something? --Calton | Talk 15:13, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- "Indefinite" isn't a synonym of "infinite". In this case, what LS is talking about is that the "indefinite period" is "at least six months", and he's complaining about the six-month clock being reset. If you want a real-world analogy, consider a criminal serving a life sentence who's been set a minimum term after which he'll be eligible to apply for parole, and is disputing that eligibility date. ‑ Iridescent 15:17, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Unsourced additions.
I think an administrator needs to scrutinize the contributions of User:Kingant1016, history shows that essentially since the creation has been adding things without sources despite several warnings. This was yesterday [[83]] which could be serious BLP issues and [[84]] this from today. A block might be needed until they respond to the warnings and or start sourcing things correctly. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Four things. Can't you help to fix it? Have you tried communicating with this editor other than with templates on their talk page? Have you reverted any of the unsourced content? Have you tagged the article with a template describing that references are needed? I am not saying that you haven't done these things, I just don't want to waste the time of other editors who will be reviewing your request. Best Regards, Barbara ✐✉ 13:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
There has been coordinated efforts to remove any connection between wanted Iranian Canadian banker Mahmoud Reza Khavari and Sam Mizrahi. In 2016 the globe and mail[1] and Financial Post [2]reported that Iranian Canadian banker who fled to Canada has invested in properties owned by Mizrahi developments and there has been legal dispute about financial issues between the two parties. Since this issue is a sensitive political issue and involves issues regarding middle east, there has been coordinated disruptive behavior to remove this connection probably by people associated with Mizrahi developments. The page has been edited to remove the sourced information from the globe and mail by User:Shemtovca multiple times over the past two years, each time removing information that was published by globe and mail, most of the time with a cover up of WP:ATP or WP:NPOV where in fact the goal was and is to remove this information from public eyes. The user El_C blocked me for trying to prevent removal of this sensitive information from this page. My edits were neutral and only presented the information that was published in the article that are from a now closed case that is public. first edit * second edit * third edit I don't think users such as User:El_C who are misusing their adminstrator access should have access to block, and anybody who is neutral to middle east issues would see what is going on here.
References
Masterofthename (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- This looks like a content dispute, which should be resolved via some form of WP:Dispute resolution as with all content disputes. ANI is never the place to resolve content disputes. Note that the basic part of any dispute resolution entails all parties engaging in discussion in good faith not accusing others of being in a gang [85] or part of a coordinated campaign. Actually such claims when made without evidence are likely to be seen as a personal attack and liable for a block. Instead the discussion should focus on whether the proposed change comply with wikipedia policy and guidelines including WP:BLP, WP:NPOV and WP:ATP and why they improve the article. Such discussions would therefore including consideration of how much coverage, if any, to give of WP:non-notable people, including relatives of the subjects of articles, in light of said policies. If even after engaging in discussion in good faith you cannot come to WP:Consensus on the way forward, the aforementioned WP:Dispute resolution page outlines possible paths forward. Since this is a BLP case, WP:BLP/N is one possible path to get more feedback. Note that part of engaging in discussion in good faith would include recognition from all parties of the possibility that they are simply wrong about what should and shouldn't be included in the article. (To be clear, this includes you as much as it includes anyone else you are in the dispute with.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I closed the AN3 report with a warning, but amended it to a block when misconduct persisted. User has since made two unblock requests, both of which were declined. And from this ANI post, it seems as if nothing was learned. I, therefore, suspect a lengthier block to be forthcoming in the immediate future. El_C 05:08, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
My main problem with these edits is that no one seems to address why the information from a well respected journal should not be included about the subject matter, If you believe the source is not reliable present your evidence, if you think that there WP:NPOV issues present your evidence, but the other parties in this dispute just remove a clearly written well sourced piece of neutral information about the subject matter without presenting any factual evidence why, the fact is in cases like this usually the party that removes factual information gets punished not the other way around. In addition many pages involving issues related to middle east conflicts, between Israel and Palestinians and or Israel and others have been subject to intense propaganda wars by all sides in the past. My issue with user:El_C is that there was no warning to the other user about why he insists on removing factual information, and also there seems to be some sort of friendship between the two users as user:Shemtovca is able to call user:El_C to block by writing on User_talk:El_C's talk page. That is why I believe this page should be reviewed by a neutral party who is impartial to the middle east and be locked in that state until a consensus is reached among all parties involved. Masterofthename (talk) 05:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- This was just another AN3 report for me — these accusations of bias that are leveled against me here are unfounded. The user was bold, but their addition was reverted — now they need to gain the consensus for these on the article talk page, instead of continuing to revert war. El_C 05:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I did not add anything, the page contained information regarding the lawsuit between Mizrahi and Khavari for over two years. The user:Shemtovca is insisting on removing the information that was in the page for a long time with no explanation why. Masterofthename (talk) 09:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- There's nothing more to discuss here. As I said above, you need to engage in discussion in good faith to resolve any content dispute. If you really can't reach consensus there are several ways you can get help. I've already suggested BLPN but there are many others. As I said before, ANI is never the way to resolve content disputes. But in any case, your first step should probably be to go back to the talk page and engage in proper discussion rather than continually making ill-founded accusations of bias. Note that you suggestion of locking the article is simply not how things work on wikipedia, so is further evidence you don't really understand how things work here. This would not be a problem if you are willing to read, listen and learn, but it is a problem if you're not willing to and instead continually make accusations about other editors without evidence or WP:edit war. Nil Einne (talk) 14:23, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Added by you — and "no explanation," really? That's just plainly false. What do you call this? El_C 18:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- When news publishes something about someone it is added to their Wikipedia page, and it was not done only by me, but a couple of editors and the page included that information for more than two years. It is only recently that this information is suddenly removed without any explanation why, which also coincides with petition from Iranian Canadian Congress to investigate Khavari last month. However I still have not figured out why a criminal banker from supposedly antisemitic Israel hating Islamic Republic is loved so much by people who put star of David or pictures of Lenin in their profile. One would think naturally that it should be the other way around. Its OK, I won't edit this page again, but no amount of censorship can prevent an idea that its time has come. Good luck. Masterofthename (talk) 02:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Oldstone James
- Oldstone James (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Answers in Genesis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Per the discussion at Answers in Genesis#Lead sentence editing by jps and Roxy the dog, and considering that the previous block and page protection had no effect, I believe that Oldstone James should be topic banned from creationism.
Also see [86][87][88][89][90][91] --Guy Macon (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is unbelievable! What have I even done after the block? Even if you don't consider these diffs: [92] [93] self-reverts, which they are (I have simply restored the version before I started editing; here is the lede section as of 11 April: [94])), I'm only on two reverts in 24 hours. Furthermore, please consider the context of the situation: jps and Roxy the dog were constantly restoring a version which not only had no consensus but also wasn't even discussed on the talk page, amid a month-long discussion concerning the lede section. Even so, I at first tried to find a compromise ([95]). Only after my compromise was reverted did I restore the status quo.
- Also, please consider the blocking of user:Roxy the dog, who launched numerous personal attacks on me ("Would you like me to recommend an optician for your much needed eyesight test?", "Grow a thicker skin or fuck off" as some examples) and appears WP:BATTLEGROUND on me, as this is not the first time he reverts my edits with no explanation. This time in particular, though, he appeared to restore an edit with no consensus. OlJa 16:09, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's not what a self revert is. A self revert is when you make one edit, then you make another edit that undoes your first edit. When you make the same edit multiple times, that's edit warring, not self reverting. You appear to understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines just fine when is suits you. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is exactly what I had done. I had first introduced an edit; then it was modified; I reverted my initial edit and hence restored the version prior to it. Your last sentence is pure gold, as it sums up your behaviour better than I could have ever put it myself. Apparently, Wiki policies only apply when they suit you. WP:CONSENSUS only applies when it's me editing. WP:SYNTH only applies when it's anyone but you editing. WP:BRD only applies when it works against me.OlJa 16:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- If that's what you did then it's not a self-revert, but a revert of both yourself and the person modifying your edit. This isn't any comment on the rights or wrongs of what you did, which I haven't looked into, but simply a clarification of what "self-revert" means, which does not include reverting anyone else's edits along with your own. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger: Thanks for clarifying, I didn't know this, although this rule seems kind of silly: getting blocked for 3RR for reverting your own edit which was later corrected (e.g. after identifying some possible problems with it) seems very unreasonable to me.OlJa 16:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Actually it makes complete sense. The only edit you "own" is any edit you make. If someone else makes an edit, that's not your edit. It's someone else's edit. If I make an edit and it's reverted by person A and then person B comes along and reverts to my version the latest reversion is not my edit. It's the person B's edit. I cannot self revert anymore than I could when person A first reverted me. I could revert person B's edit but that's reverting person B's edit, it's not reverting myself since my edit was already reverted. If person A and person B engage in a 10 revert war in the next 1 hour, I am only responsible for my first edit. I'm not responsible for person A and person B seriously violating 3RR. Likewise when someone else has modified my edit, any reversion of their changes is not a self revert since it's not my edit. If it's possible to self revert without affecting their changes then I can simply self-revert, but if it's not than any revert is not simply a self revert since I'm changing someone else's edit. Otherwise we'd have the ridiculous situation where I change 1234567890 to 2134567890 and someone else changes it to 3214567890 and so on until it's 0987654321 and I come along and change it back to 1234567890 and claim all I did is self revert which is clearly nonsense. Nil Einne (talk) 05:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger: Thanks for clarifying, I didn't know this, although this rule seems kind of silly: getting blocked for 3RR for reverting your own edit which was later corrected (e.g. after identifying some possible problems with it) seems very unreasonable to me.OlJa 16:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- If that's what you did then it's not a self-revert, but a revert of both yourself and the person modifying your edit. This isn't any comment on the rights or wrongs of what you did, which I haven't looked into, but simply a clarification of what "self-revert" means, which does not include reverting anyone else's edits along with your own. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is exactly what I had done. I had first introduced an edit; then it was modified; I reverted my initial edit and hence restored the version prior to it. Your last sentence is pure gold, as it sums up your behaviour better than I could have ever put it myself. Apparently, Wiki policies only apply when they suit you. WP:CONSENSUS only applies when it's me editing. WP:SYNTH only applies when it's anyone but you editing. WP:BRD only applies when it works against me.OlJa 16:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- No, I did collaborate... until you simply reverted one of my compromise edits. In hindsight, you did add in some pieces of my edit, but most of your errors still remained. Remember that your edits had zero consensus, so I was in full right to restore the status quo. We eventually managed to work our versions into a satisfactory compromise. A better question to ask would be why Guy Macon, Roxy the dog, and some other editors stubbornly refuse to collaborate at all costs, reverting every new edit done to the page and refusing to give explanations. WP:OWN would be a very appropriate explanation for this type of behaviour, I believe.OlJa 16:52, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- On 29 March 2019 I told Oldstone James:
- "You have two choices. [1] create a specific proposal and see what the consensus is for your change, or [2] Go ahead and assume that your change is OK without checking, make the change, and get blocked. Most administrators have a very low tolerance for someone who edits after edit-warring protection expires without a clear survey of participants asking if they object to that specific change. When in doubt, ask. If you have no doubts, ask anyway."[96]
I note, also, that Oldstone James wikistalked Roxy the Dog to fascism. [97], [98]. It's surprising to me that he is then turning around and citing WP:BATTLEGROUND above. jps (talk) 16:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Important clarification: I was not wikistalking; this was a coincidence. I had edited on related pages in the past, too.OlJa 17:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that is a behavioural slam dunk James, sorry. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 17:47, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Really, Oldstone James? You had never edited Fascism before. And purely by coincidence — not by following Roxy there — you reverted a Fascism edit by Roxy, after consulting the book sources for the sentence. That happened only 11 minutes after you posted a long argument on Talk:Answers in Genesis in which you attacked Roxy ("out of nowhere yet comes Roxy the dog and reverts my self-revert..!"). Is that what you're saying? Bishonen | talk 09:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC).
- Yep. When I edit on Answers in Genesis, it is usually because I am looking something up on Wikipedia and, using the opportunity, check my watchlist (AiG was one the most recent entries at that time, following an edit by jps). At the time, I was looking up information on WWIII, which eventually got me to WWII and hence fascism. I had edited on articles related to WWIII and WWII before (MAD as one example, there are others). I must admit that seeing that the most recent change was made by user:Roxy the dog encouraged me to check into what the edit actually was, but I was not in any way houding the user. Please assume good faith, and that's what my edit was. I myself was very surprised to see the same user who had just reverted my edit on AiG was also the user who made the most recent change to the page I was then viewing.OlJa 11:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support topic ban from the topic of creationism as proposer. Recent comments by Oldstone James have made it clear that he intends to continue to try to get his way through reverts rather than through discussion and consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Note I restored the above !vote by Guy Macon, after it was deleted by Oldstone James with the edit summary of "Not sure you can vote on your own proposal". Paul August ☎ 00:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- My apology. This has previously been done to me a couple of times, so I assumed it was within my right's to do - which, in hindsight, I absolutely shouldn't have done. Once again, I apologise for this edit.OlJa 00:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Note I restored the above !vote by Guy Macon, after it was deleted by Oldstone James with the edit summary of "Not sure you can vote on your own proposal". Paul August ☎ 00:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Weak support mostly because of the historic problems combined with the fact this is a contentious topic but the editor seems to lack the most basic WP:competence given their claims above that reverting someone else's changes along with their own counts as a simple self revert. I think the editor needs to edit less contentious areas until they understand better how wikipedia works. Nil Einne (talk) 05:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: I had an interesting discussion with this user which ended with this comment: [99] I think that this, perhaps, indicates we are working with an editor who may need to get a little perspective on their editing and perhaps mature just a bit (although I bet he won't take kindly to me saying this). In any case, this is the advice I gave him. This is one of the extremely rare cases where I think mentorship may help, if he would be open to it. Unfortunately, none of the people with whom he's gotten into arguments (including me) would be appropriate. We'd need to find someone he would listen to. jps (talk) 14:07, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- @ජපස: Yes, I absolutely do need a decent perspective of why my editing is considered unconstructive, while the editing of Macon and Roxy is condoned; so far, this perspective hasn't at all been provided. And you may be surprised to find that I do appreciate your sincerity, as you could have easily supported my topic ban by citing one of my reverts as evidence, and you haven't done so; instead, you opted to give your honest take on the matter. Also, "lack of maturity", in the sense of being to rash and (perhaps unnecessarily) aggressive with editing, is not one of the qualities that I would argue with if they were attributed to me. Following that up, I would indeed be very open to mentorship, if it is given that the mentor knows very well and respects Wikipedia polcies, and that the mentor can explain to me why my some of my particular edits are unconstructive. Based on my experience, user:EdChem would be a good candidate. Lastly, I am still very open to your advice, too, and will absolutely listen to you. The fact that I've gotten into an argument with you means nothing. Users that I wouldn't listen to include only those who have repeatedly demonstrated either a lack of WP:CIR, a lack knowledge or respect of Wikipedia policies, delibarate bad-faith editing, or a complete lack of understanding of the situation.OlJa 12:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, if you're open to advice and don't want a topic ban (which looks like it may come through according to my wiki-divination), I would recommend (a) apologizing for reverting and personalizing the disputes and by all means stop being argumentative, (b) explain exactly what you think mentorship will entail -- including an endgame which might be agreement by your mentor that the relationship is finished and then perhaps informing the community of such on WP:AN, for example -- and make it binding (I don't know that EdChem will want to mentor you, but if he does, I would recommend saying that you will run by all your edits on creationism-related topics with him first before you do them and wait for his advice on how to proceed even if it means not doing anything for days or up to a week.), and (c) maybe commit to moving to some other articles other than AiG for a bit to show that you can stick to such a plan. Right now, it seems like you are just setting yourself up for more and more disciplinary action. jps (talk) 13:56, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @ජපස: Yes, I absolutely do need a decent perspective of why my editing is considered unconstructive, while the editing of Macon and Roxy is condoned; so far, this perspective hasn't at all been provided. And you may be surprised to find that I do appreciate your sincerity, as you could have easily supported my topic ban by citing one of my reverts as evidence, and you haven't done so; instead, you opted to give your honest take on the matter. Also, "lack of maturity", in the sense of being to rash and (perhaps unnecessarily) aggressive with editing, is not one of the qualities that I would argue with if they were attributed to me. Following that up, I would indeed be very open to mentorship, if it is given that the mentor knows very well and respects Wikipedia polcies, and that the mentor can explain to me why my some of my particular edits are unconstructive. Based on my experience, user:EdChem would be a good candidate. Lastly, I am still very open to your advice, too, and will absolutely listen to you. The fact that I've gotten into an argument with you means nothing. Users that I wouldn't listen to include only those who have repeatedly demonstrated either a lack of WP:CIR, a lack knowledge or respect of Wikipedia policies, delibarate bad-faith editing, or a complete lack of understanding of the situation.OlJa 12:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. I avoided commenting here at first because I was so baffled by Oldstone James's statements about "self-reverting": I thought I might be getting dumber. Thank you for clearing it up, @Phil Bridger and Nil Einne:. I agree the editor needs to gain more understanding of how Wikipedia works. Controversial articles about creationism and their talkpages aren't good places to practice. I notice that the user comes across as self-righteous and aggressive, even here, even when they're wrong and an experienced editor attempts to explain, as above: "Apparently, Wiki policies only apply when they suit you. WP:CONSENSUS only applies when it's me editing. WP:SYNTH only applies when it's anyone but you editing. WP:BRD only applies when it works against me."[100] Admittedly, that was in response to a somewhat aggressive post by Guy Macon, but even so: Guy's post had explained self-reverting clearly and correctly. In view of this, do you really think mentoring is indicated, jps? Also, it's hard enough to find a mentor under the best of circumstances; if it's conditional on "someone he would listen to", it may be impossible. Bishonen | talk 20:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC).
- @Bishonen: Just a comment: I did not get aggressive because I thought I was right; I was wrong, and I admitted I was wrong in a reply to Phil Bridger's comment. I got aggressive in response to Guy Macon's aggressive post and his hypocrisy (also, please note how users like Guy Macon and Roxy the dog have talked to me in the past; their manner of speech is just as "self-righteous" and aggressive as mine was in that comment). Also, when you say that I need to gain more understanding of how Wikipedia works, I assume you do so based on my (former) incorrect understanding of what a self-revert is. However, can you really make such a big statement as that I need to gain a better understanding of how Wikipedia works, and hence such a big conclusion that I need to be topic-banned, based on only one instance? Such instances occur also with experienced editors and even admins such as Doug Weller, who cited "If it isn't broken, and I agree that it isn't, don't fix it" as an argument against a proposal, which contradicts WP:TALKDONTREVERT. Of course, that does not mean that they don't understand how Wikipedia works - they are an admin, after all. Finally, even if you do believe that my understanding of WIkipedia is not good enough for me to have the right to edit on contentious topics, why topic-ban me? I've just recently been blocked, and I haven't violated any Wikipedia policy that warrants a block, like 3RR, since. I would politely ask you to reconsider your !vote.OlJa 00:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Shrug? Oldstone James seems to be thin-skinned and when he perceives himself as under attack he lashes out in a spectacularly hypocritical fashion. If we cannot find someone that Oldstone James will check in with or listen to, then certainly mentoring won't work. jps (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oldstone James has been told -- repeatedly -- what he should do when he knows that the change he wants to make is opposed by multiple editors (stop edit warring, post a specific proposal on the article talk page, make his arguments, and try to get consensus for the proposed change). He has been told this by a wide variety of editors. He has been told this gently and respectfully. He has been told this aggressively and forcefully. He has been told this in the form of a block by an administrator. He has been told this by an uninvolved administrator who reviewed the block and denied his appeal. I question whether any mentoring will be acceptable to him. I think that the moment the mentor tells him to stop edit warring and seek consensus he will instantly add the mentor to the list of inferior beings who he will not listen to because it is all their fault. I also question whether, given his present attitude, he has the ability to contribute constructively on any page related to creationism. I have not yet concluded that he cannot contribute constructively on other topics, which is why I am asking for a topic ban and not for another block. This may be one of those cases where someone is topic banned, learns how to get along with other editors on articles where his feelings are not quite so strong, gets the topic ban lifted after six months, and goes on to make real improvements to the article that he formerly edit warred over. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Guy Macon: I don't know what exactly you are trying to achieve with this comment. My reverts have not been making any change to the status quo. Instead, they reverted such changes, because the user who made these changes had not followed the steps that you have described in your comment. Furthermore, if you believe that your advice ("stop edit warring, post a specific proposal on the article talk page, make his arguments, and try to get consensus for the proposed change") is right (which it is), why did you not follow your own advice? Why did you make a change to the status quo, which was opposed by at least one editor (me) and not post "a specific proposal on the article talk page", made your arguments, and tried "to get consensus for the proposed change"?OlJa 00:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Oldstone James, your edits here and (good faith but mistaken) removal of another editor's comments seem to me to be doing irreparable damage to your cause. Just something to think about. Dumuzid (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're right. It's just that the same thing was done to me on numerous occasions, so I assumed it didn't violate any WP policies. Of course, I absolutely shouldn't have done that. I'll think extra carefully before any following edit I opt to make.OlJa 00:59, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Re: "I don't know what exactly you are trying to achieve with this comment", what part of "stop edit warring, post a specific proposal on the article talk page, make your argument, and try to get consensus for the proposed change" are you having trouble understanding? And yes, you have been edit warring. An actual self-revert undoes an edit that you made without undoing any edits (additions or deletions) by any other editor. Re "It's just that the same thing was done to me on numerous occasions", if someone has been editing your comments outside of the exceptions listed at WP:TPOC, report them at ANI. Someone else violating a Wikipedia policy or guideline does not give you permission to violate Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. BTW, you are wasting your time pinging me in a conversation that I am already participating in. In the preferences tab there is an option to mute users, and I have set it so that I don't see any pings or username mentions from you. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're right. It's just that the same thing was done to me on numerous occasions, so I assumed it didn't violate any WP policies. Of course, I absolutely shouldn't have done that. I'll think extra carefully before any following edit I opt to make.OlJa 00:59, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Oldstone James, your edits here and (good faith but mistaken) removal of another editor's comments seem to me to be doing irreparable damage to your cause. Just something to think about. Dumuzid (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Having been on the receiving end of advice given from people whom I don't respect, I think it unsurprising that it does not work, and it's not really up to us to decide who it is anyone respects. To that end, you may be 100% correct that he may not find any mentoring acceptable. If that's really the case, my idea is flushed. jps (talk) 23:26, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Guy Macon: I don't know what exactly you are trying to achieve with this comment. My reverts have not been making any change to the status quo. Instead, they reverted such changes, because the user who made these changes had not followed the steps that you have described in your comment. Furthermore, if you believe that your advice ("stop edit warring, post a specific proposal on the article talk page, make his arguments, and try to get consensus for the proposed change") is right (which it is), why did you not follow your own advice? Why did you make a change to the status quo, which was opposed by at least one editor (me) and not post "a specific proposal on the article talk page", made your arguments, and tried "to get consensus for the proposed change"?OlJa 00:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oldstone James has been told -- repeatedly -- what he should do when he knows that the change he wants to make is opposed by multiple editors (stop edit warring, post a specific proposal on the article talk page, make his arguments, and try to get consensus for the proposed change). He has been told this by a wide variety of editors. He has been told this gently and respectfully. He has been told this aggressively and forcefully. He has been told this in the form of a block by an administrator. He has been told this by an uninvolved administrator who reviewed the block and denied his appeal. I question whether any mentoring will be acceptable to him. I think that the moment the mentor tells him to stop edit warring and seek consensus he will instantly add the mentor to the list of inferior beings who he will not listen to because it is all their fault. I also question whether, given his present attitude, he has the ability to contribute constructively on any page related to creationism. I have not yet concluded that he cannot contribute constructively on other topics, which is why I am asking for a topic ban and not for another block. This may be one of those cases where someone is topic banned, learns how to get along with other editors on articles where his feelings are not quite so strong, gets the topic ban lifted after six months, and goes on to make real improvements to the article that he formerly edit warred over. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I haven't violated 3RR or any other policy that warrants a block or topic ban (since my last block). On the contrary, I have now reached an agreement (in terms of what the lede should be) with the editor I was accused of edit-warring: [101] ("the edit you just made was fine"). If some users are not happy with my editing, a good compromise would be limit my edits on creationism-related topics to 1RR or similar. Although if editing is anything to go by when considering a topic ban, I believe a similar ban should be imposed on Roxy the dog and Guy Macon, who have repeatedly ignored several Wikipedia policies such as WP:BRD, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:DONTREVERT, WP:PERSONAL among others. OlJa 00:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Diffs or it didn't happen James. I'd also like you to stop talking about me all over the project without notifying me, and ask you to read WP:NPA and WP:HOUNDING. Support topic ban. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 08:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Already quoted some of your comments at the top of the page. You had violated both WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DONTREVERT with this edit: [102]. I mentioned you once in this thread, so what's the point of mentioning you again?OlJa 11:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- It isn't just Roxy who you have been accusing of wrongdoing.
- You have accused me of violating WP:BRD. Please post diffs showing this behavior.
- You have accused me of violating WP:CONSENSUS. Please post diffs showing this behavior.
- You have accused me of violating WP:PERSONAL. Please post diffs showing this behavior.
- You have called for me to be topic banned from creationism. Please posts diffs showing the behavior that requires a topic ban.
- In fact, if I am as evil as you imply, you should file a separate ANI report laying out the evidence of my disruptive behavior. Be sure to include all of my previous blocks and all of the the times that I ignored warnings. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, that's an easy task: [103] There you go. Reinstating an edit that had no consensus at the time. That also happens to violate WP:BRD, as you have been bold and you have reverted, but you haven't discussed. But there's more: this quote "but so far there is no such consensus, so my preference is for the existing wording" means you don't understand Wikipedia:TALKDONTREVERT; this edit: [104] is a perfect example of WP:SYNTH. I have not accused you of WP:PERSONAL, but there are many other WP violations by you, too. These are just some notable, defining examples.OlJa 15:16, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- It is now clear that you are unable to tell the difference between a content dispute and a policy violation, and you appear to lack the ability to read and understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Go ahead and file an ANI report naming me if you think you have a case. I am going to stop responding to you and disengage for the obvious reason. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, that's an easy task: [103] There you go. Reinstating an edit that had no consensus at the time. That also happens to violate WP:BRD, as you have been bold and you have reverted, but you haven't discussed. But there's more: this quote "but so far there is no such consensus, so my preference is for the existing wording" means you don't understand Wikipedia:TALKDONTREVERT; this edit: [104] is a perfect example of WP:SYNTH. I have not accused you of WP:PERSONAL, but there are many other WP violations by you, too. These are just some notable, defining examples.OlJa 15:16, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Already quoted some of your comments at the top of the page. You had violated both WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DONTREVERT with this edit: [102]. I mentioned you once in this thread, so what's the point of mentioning you again?OlJa 11:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Diffs or it didn't happen James. I'd also like you to stop talking about me all over the project without notifying me, and ask you to read WP:NPA and WP:HOUNDING. Support topic ban. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 08:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Despite the scrutiny this ANI filing has drawn to their editing, they are still reverting, and are still taking it upon themselves to be the judge of what's consensus. If you can't step back when your behaviour is under scrutiny, when can you? Guettarda (talk) 03:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Guettarda: Please see what the edit actually is. The edit summary of the edit reads: "Please revert this edit if you believe my judgement is wrong". The revert was simply because the user who made the edit appeared to contradict the apparent outcome of a recent discussion on the talk page, and hence just follows WP:BRD. Judging by the fact that the following edit after my revert appeared to fix the issue, I would assume that my judgement was indeed correct.OlJa 11:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- The actual edit is immaterial. The advice here to you is, in essence, to disengage. The fact that you won't take that advice is the problem here. The issue isn't whether you're right or wrong on content, it's behaviour. Guettarda (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I did disengage as soon as you've given me this advice. Giving an advice and then claiming that I didn't follow it in the same comment is a bit like blaming someone for not doing something that's about to be asked of them. Prior to your comment, the only advice I was given was to stop edit-warring, which I did. OlJa 14:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- The actual edit is immaterial. The advice here to you is, in essence, to disengage. The fact that you won't take that advice is the problem here. The issue isn't whether you're right or wrong on content, it's behaviour. Guettarda (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Guettarda: Please see what the edit actually is. The edit summary of the edit reads: "Please revert this edit if you believe my judgement is wrong". The revert was simply because the user who made the edit appeared to contradict the apparent outcome of a recent discussion on the talk page, and hence just follows WP:BRD. Judging by the fact that the following edit after my revert appeared to fix the issue, I would assume that my judgement was indeed correct.OlJa 11:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support Answers in Genesis is on my watchlist and I finally got around to looking at recent activity. Oldstone James is not able to collaboratively edit according to policies in this area. Johnuniq (talk) 09:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you don't believe my edits were appropriate, that's fine (although I would still be very grateful if you could provide an explanation). However, please also assess appropriateness of user:Roxy the dog and Guy Macon's edits, which simply reverted my edits entirely without any explanation. This alone contradicts WP:DONTREVERT. However, if you look at what they were actually reverting, you will see that they simply reinstated an edit which had no consensus (or any attempt at being discussed, for that matter) at the time. The manner of the mentioned users' editing is continuous. If I am to be topic-banned, which, based on the number of 'support' !votes, will most likely happen (whoever eventually imposes the ban, please don't use this comment as evidence that I agree with such a decision), I believe Guy Macon and Roxy the dog should be topic-banned as well, if the reason for my future topic ban is my edits being unconstructive or uncollaborative.OlJa 11:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support (1) I sympathise with the feeling of being hounded in this situation and responding defensively. (2) It seems clear that both sides have contributed to some extent, if only by choice of words, to heating up this conflict. (3) Bishonen is correct in that creationism is not the best playground for learning the wiki ways. (4) Guettarda is correct in that continuing to battle while a discussion is ongoing is disruptive. I think this is not really excusable by lack of wiki experience, it's just an obviously generally bad idea. (5) This is a major conflict that needs to be resolved. (a) It is a topic of global interest and importance, and thus, a core part of our mission. (b) Aside from that, it is a well-documented source of conflict for Wikipedia specifically. (c) This is a case of a dispute that's survived a period of full protection and is thus, at this point, a hardened dispute. (6) Many of the issues raised w.r.t. article content have come up before, like softening the wording to be more sympathetic towards creationism. Given the very intense and lengthy discussion around these very points in the past, there is no sensibly foreseeable need for discussing them again. Enforcing the established consensus on creationism seems extremely reasonable. (7) At this point, I'm not sure what the chances of any sort of amicable solution are, so as an overall less preferred but apparently necessary option, I hereby endorse the proposed topic ban. In doing so, I would not like it to go unmentioned that Oldstone James has, considering the situation, civilly and constructively argued his case. Even if not everyone here may depart as friends, I think a certain amount of mutual appreciation is appropriate. Samsara 10:48, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Samsara: Just a few clarifications:
- 1) Note that the edit Guettarda was referring to was not continuing a battle but instead following WP:BRD on a completely new issue. The editor didn't appear to have read a particular talk page section which contradicted the edit, so I reverted it as per WP:BRD, with the edit summary "Please revert this edit if you believe my judgement is wrong". My judgement turned out to be correct, and an appropriate edit followed straight after.
- 2) Also note that my edits are not aimed at softening the wording in favour of creationism. In fact, it wouldn't make sense for them to be, me being a convinced atheist. Instead, most of my edits are simply aimed at correcting grammar and/or better reflecting the source cited. There is nothing in particular that makes creationism stand out among the numerous other topics in which I edit, with the exception of the many stubborn editors who are, in opinion, refusing to collaborate.
- 3) Here is a proposed amicable solution: give me the last chance (I haven't even been warned of a topic ban after my block) and limit me at 1RR. I make more than a single revert in 24 hours, and I am blocked. Surely, that is an amicable solution?
- 4) I appreciate your understanding of my position, and it's refreshing to find someone who can see both sides of the coin, though you appear to be in a very insignificant minority.OlJa 11:27, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment James appears to be exhibiting fairly classic WP:IDHT. I have left him the advice to stop while this discussion is ongoing. I sincerely hope he heeds it. - Nick Thorne talk 12:42, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- The funny thing is that I was actually arguing from consensus. If you look at the page history, you will see that it was me who was restoring the satus quo, while other users kept reinstating an edit that had no consensus at the time. Furthermore, my edits all address different sections of the article, so I am not sure WP:IDHT applies here. Frankly speaking, I am not sure what it is exactly that I am to be topic-banned for, but my two best bets would be "unconstructive editing" and "lack of understanding of WP policies". I'm not sure IDHT is relevant.OlJa 13:18, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I was pinged above in relation to the question of mentoring. I am aware that our AiG article is again being edited heavily. I have not been watching, having been distracted y other matters both on and off wiki. I have read this ANI thread and looked at some of the diffs, but certainly not all. Some thoughts:
- As can be seen on talk:AiG, I tried to distill some coherent progress from a dispute there, which I think produced some progress.
- Oldstone James ("OJ") expressed appreciation on his user talk page, and we had a useful conversation. Others can comment on how it went, I know I'd be interested in other views.
- OJ did have concerns that were valid and his approach was hindering this being recognised. In some cases, it took a while for me to figure out what concerned him, and in at least one case my first impression of one of his issues turned out to be completely wrong. I think he does have valuable contributions to make to this article.
- Unfortunately, his style and approach are problematic at times – the effort put in above to concerns about other editors is familiar to anyone who has seen many previous disputes / ANI discussions as a strategy from the "shooting yourself in the foot" school. (Sorry, OJ, but there is quite a bit in this thread that looks bad and which has caused the number of support !votes to increase. You make think that is unfair, that you are putting forward reasonable points, but you really need to focus on you here.)
- I'm willing to discuss the possibility of mentorship in some form, but only if OJ really wants it and will abide by some restrictions, such as:
- Contributions to talk:AiG will be about content only, not about other contributors. If some contributor issue arises, OJ can raise it with me and I'll do something if I think it is worth it.
- No edits to the AiG article – not grammar corrections, not fixing typos, nothing – without talk page agreement (as in, other editors saying "yes, that's a good idea", not OJ deciding independently there is a consensus) or agreement from me.
- Following editors from AiG to other pages (wikistalking) is disruptive. If you come across something problematic and it is by an active AiG editor, start a talk page discussion but don't revert / modify their edit. If others agree on the talk page, the change will happen; if they don't, it doesn't have consensus support. Disputes between editors that cross into other topics / articles are a fast way to earn a block, so avoid even the appearance of doing this.
- You need to learn when your style is not helping pursue your goals. Above, for example, you have reflected on most Wikipedians saying that being able to see both sides of an issue is rare. Most people don't become more open to considering suggestions if the speaker starts by insulting them. There could be times when I would refactor / redact unhelpful comments from article talk pages and discuss them on your user talk.
- I haven't done a formal mentorship, so any other suggestions are welcome. I'm also not an admin. However, OJ, for this to work you need to understand and accept that I will tell you if I disagree with you, or if you are being disruptive, and if needed I would call for a block or a t-ban. You'd be free to disagree or try to persuade, but you'd need to agree that if I say "don't" you need to not do whatever it is, or you need to end the mentorship arrangement.
The issue of scope would also need consideration, because the amount of time I have is limited. EdChem (talk) 15:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- @EdChem: Honestly, I am very happy to follow all the rules that you have described here. In fact, your mentorship would at most times be better than me editing by myself, as most of my edits will get reverted straight away simply because of the reputation that I have built for myself. I will definitely respect your time, and, trust me, I won't be proposing nearly as many edits as I have on the talk page, as I believe that most of the issues in the article have now been fixed. Furthermore, I won't have to spend nearly as much time justifying my points when there is only one user I can communicate my points to.
- P.S. I think your 4th bullet point describes the issue very well. I was wondering what was causing such an overwhelming amount of support !votes: but it appears it's not so much the gist of my editing as it is my behaviour and aggressiveness which accompanied my edits. I've definitely created a bad first impression of myself, of an editor that is "self-righteous", "uncollaborative", and "aggressive", and my most recent edit summaries certainly did not help. I know this might seem obvious to other editors, but no one has yet brought this up, apart from a slight allusion by user:jps, so the fact that it's my behaviour that's causing the stir-up is very valuable insight for me. Not to accuse anyone, but giving me pieces of advice on my editing which, when taken, do not seem to make the situation much better, only make me more confused, hence more deluded, and hence you hear more angry claims from me of other editors being unfair on me. If anyone had taken the time to explain what exactly it wass that I was doing very wrong, you'd hear much less aggression from me. Of course, that's not at all to say that I'm not at fault here.OlJa 17:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. They have been blocked 4 times over the course of 4 years for the exact same reason, yet no sign of improvement has been seen. This may be a case of WP:NOTHERE. However, I definitely support a topic ban because to my points stated, and per all of the above. The Duke 21:43, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: On his talk page and in this ANI case Oldstone James has indicated that he was confused over what a revert is and appears to be surprised by the "in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material" part of the edit warring policy.
- I find it difficult to believe that there has been the slightest confusion. Oldstone James was informed of the exact wording of the policy at least four times:
- "To revert is to undo the action of another editor. The 3RR says an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period." --Guy Macon (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC) [105]
- "Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." --Jytdog (talk) 22:51, 10 November 2017 (UTC) [106]
- "Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." --Jytdog (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2017 (UTC) [107]
- "Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." --Black Kite (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC) [108]
- In addition Oldstone James has been to WP:3RRNB an additional four times,[109][110][111][112] twice as the one doing the edit warring (blocked both times) and twice as the one doing the reporting (One was declined as a "pure revenge report",[113] the other as "no violation" along with a note from the closing admin regarding Oldstone James' claims of consensus "Even a cursory look at the talkpage would reveal this to be flat-out false."[114])
- I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide whether the above shows evidence of confusion or of purposely ignoring multiple clear warnings. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's not have this turn into a competition in vindictiveness - you may yet inadvertently win. Samsara 00:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have no desire to be vindictive. I don't even want Oldstone James to be blocked. What I would really like is for Oldstone James to stop edit warring, stop saying that his proposed changes have consensus without asking whether anyone agrees that they have consensus, use the talk page rather than trying to get his way though repeatedly reverting, and to either stop accusing other editors of wrongdoing or to put together some evidence and report them at ANI. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you would really like for me to stop edit-warring, shouldn't you support getting me a mentor? Surely that would keep me from edit-warring?OlJa 22:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I choose to not state my position on whether you are a good candidate for mentoring or whether mentoring would stop your disruptive behavior.
- I want you to stop edit warring. I don't care why you stop or how you are forced to stop, just that you stop.
- I want you to stop saying that your proposed changes have consensus without asking whether anyone agrees that they have consensus. I don't care why you stop or how you are forced to stop, just that you stop.
- I want you to use the talk page rather than trying to get your way though repeatedly reverting. I don't care why you do this or how you are forced to do this, just that you do it.
- I want you to either stop accusing other editors of wrongdoing or to put together some evidence and report them at ANI. I don't care why you do this or how you are forced to do this, just that you do it.
- I want you to stop blaming other people for your actions. I don't care why you stop or how you are forced to stop, just that you stop. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:59, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you would really like for me to stop edit-warring, shouldn't you support getting me a mentor? Surely that would keep me from edit-warring?OlJa 22:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have no desire to be vindictive. I don't even want Oldstone James to be blocked. What I would really like is for Oldstone James to stop edit warring, stop saying that his proposed changes have consensus without asking whether anyone agrees that they have consensus, use the talk page rather than trying to get his way though repeatedly reverting, and to either stop accusing other editors of wrongdoing or to put together some evidence and report them at ANI. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's not have this turn into a competition in vindictiveness - you may yet inadvertently win. Samsara 00:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Oldstone James is not the only editor to AiG with problematic behaviour. Just yesterday:
- OJ added a hyphen to the phrase "Noah's Ark themed amusement park" with a strange edit summary... I think it was a copy and paste of a summary but it had nothing to do with the edit.
- Calton reverted with an edit summary "It'S not that I don't trust you ... wait, I don't trust you." – if not a violation of NPA, it's very close.
- I posted to talk:AiG to ask about the revert. Calton has not edited since making the reversion.
- Roxy the dog responded blaming OJ (who he described as my "potential protégé") and characterised Calton's revert as a null edit (which it was not... it was not even a dummy edit as it removed the added hyphen, even though both the edit and the revert involved size changes of 0 bytes).
- Guy Macon responded by starting a discussion at WT:MOS.
- I thanked Guy for starting a helpful discussion for outside input. I also responded to Roxy, explaining that Calton's action was not a null edit, noting Calton's problematic edit summary, and pointing out that reverting OJ is ok if his edit is disruptive / flawed but not ok if it's basically "I don't like OJ."
- Roxy's response did not actually address the points that I had made, instead implying that I was wrong and politely asking that I "read carefully."
- I asked Roxy to be direct if he had a problem with me and again explained why Calton's edit was not a null edit. I also noted the accuracy of Guy Macon's observation that both OJ and Calton's edit summaries were out of line.
- OJ subsequently explained his edit summary, which highlights (amongst other things) that he is not always sure what an edit summary is for and doesn't know the difference between a null edit and a dummy edit.
- Meanwhile, Guy Macon's post at WT:MOS had been productive, leading to the advice that an ndash was needed (rather than a hyphen), which is what he then added to the article.
I'm not here to defend OJ, but I would note that Calton's edit was not appropriate and the edit summary was worse. Roxy defended Calton (inaccurately) and criticised OJ for making a mess without acknowledging that Calton did change content and in a way that was unjustified. Guy actually looked at the issue, got advice, and made the appropriate correction (thank you, very helpful). I leave it to others to evaluate my actions. I, however, am disappointed that OJ's problematic behaviours are the sole focus here. There are topic ban discussions at ANI where one editor is the problem and source of all conflict and needs to be removed. In this case, OJ is a problem, but so is the failure of others to recognise when he is making helpful edits or raising legitimate concerns. I have expressed willingness to become a mentor, which will include OJ not editing the article without consensus or my agreement, as that is needed to reduce tensions and the temperature. If I thought he was simply a disruption, I would have supported the topic ban proposal (which I recognise may still be the result). Note: Just to prevent any confusion, I am not advocating that ANI impose a sanction on Calton or Roxy, but they do offer a timely example of how the problems in this area have issues with behaviour of editors other than OJ as well. EdChem (talk) 01:20, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but my part in this was owing to a misreading on my part: I thought I was reverting some wording, not a punctuation change. I apologize for that.
- However, maybe you shouldn't be trying to draw attention away from Oldstone James's severe IDHT problem, especially given his obviously bogus claims of not understanding what he's doing wrong: look at the history of his talk page and you'll see YEARS of warnings regarding edit-warring -- and not just on Answers in Genesis -- that he claims to be unaware of. So no, I don't trust him. --Calton | Talk 02:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am in 100% agreement with EdChem above. In particular, I would encourage Roxy to dial it down from 11 to 2 or 3. Calton, nobody at ANI will do any more or less about Oldstone James because of the behavior of others. ANI sees the Tu quoque fallacy a lot -- most recently by Oldstone James -- and will not allow anyone else's behavior to excuse bad behavior. (There is a minor exception; if someone is being extremely insulting we tend to give less weight to someone insulting them back than we would to an unprovoked insult). It is perfectly reasonable to look at my behavior, your behavior, and Roxy's behavior while dealing with Oldstone James' behavior. The key is how we respond when we are informed/warned that we could have reacted better. If we apologize and make a good faith effort to not do it again, that is usually the end of it. ANI isn't here to punish, but rather to prevent future disruption.
- On a personal note, Early off (after being a real jerk when I first started editing Wikipedia as an IP in 2006) I figured out something that has kept me block-free for 12 years and 45,000 edits: I try to follow the rules, and If I get a warning from an administrator or an established editor I immediately stop doing what they warned me not to do. Even if I am convinced that they are completely wrong I stop doing it and start discussing it with them. I also don't do the kind of things that result in instant blocks, like WP:OUTING, but nobody had to tell me that. This is fiendishly clever; as long as I stop when warned the only possible block would be a block without any prior warning, which is frowned upon. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: On many YEC-related articles, there is also problematic behavior on the "other side," from WP:POVFIGHTERs who claim to be fighting for science against those dumb Trump-loving YECers. This often leads to over-the-top edits that give YEC articles a POV in the opposite direction (like these, for example, in a another article where editors have since reached a consensus:[115][116][117][118]--also, see EdChem's examples above). However, despite this POV, I've only seen editors like Oldstone James, who's edits do not have a clear anti-YEC tone (though I think he's stated he's an atheist), be targeted. I don't endorse the aggressiveness of his efforts but I also oppose the behavior of some of the other editors. Thus, a topic ban is way too extreme and one-sided for this dispute. --1990'sguy (talk) 13:15, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there are other editors exhibiting the same behavior and causing the same level of disruption, then start bringing specifics. Saying a problematic editor's behavior should be ignored because it balances out other problematic editors is an underwhelming argument. Grandpallama (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I did provide specifics (see the diffs above), in addition to also referring readers to EdChem's specific examples above. I'm not interested in bringing anyone to ANI, if that's what you're implying. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I'm saying. When someone causes problems, an appropriate response is not to point to other people causing similar problems as an excuse to allow this person to continue doing what they're doing. Instead, we recognize that we should also hold other people to the same standard. In other words, your rationale is really for bringing other supposedly problematic editors to ANI, not for excusing the behavior of this editor. Grandpallama (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- You have presented no evidence or argument to oppose a topic ban other than four unrelated diffs by unrelated editors. Johnuniq (talk) 05:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I did provide specifics (see the diffs above), in addition to also referring readers to EdChem's specific examples above. I'm not interested in bringing anyone to ANI, if that's what you're implying. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there are other editors exhibiting the same behavior and causing the same level of disruption, then start bringing specifics. Saying a problematic editor's behavior should be ignored because it balances out other problematic editors is an underwhelming argument. Grandpallama (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support Clearly tendentious editing. And it seems obvious to me that, assuming good faith, this is a clear-cut case of IDHT. Because it's otherwise some catastrophic competence issues, which I don't believe is at all justified from the edits and the articulation of rationales. Grandpallama (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- What has been deemed to be my tendentious editing - more specifically, the violation of 3RR - has already warranted myself a week's block ([119]). From then, the only reverts that I have made apart from this one: [120] (whose edit summary, by the way, said "Please revert this edit if you believe my judgement is wrong", and the following edit respected this revert) were all reverts to the WP:STATUS QUO, of an edit that had no consensus ([121], [122], [123]). I haven't even violated WP:3RR. Can you please explain why you believe this is a case of IDHT?OlJa 22:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- You do realize that addressing every single person who supports this topic ban in an attempt to argue with them is counter-productive, right? Grandpallama (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- We do give quite a bit of extra leeway to the editor who's behavior is being discussed and who is facing potential sanctions. It wouldn't be fair to give a dozen accusing editors several comments each while limiting responses by the accused.
- For those who are convinced by Oldstone James' arguments/explanations his 22 comments so far insure that he was able to clearly state his case. For those who are not convinced his 22 comments are an example of the Law of holes, under the assumption "if this is how he behaves when he is on his best behavior, how will he behave after the ANI report is closed?"
- If you watch enough ANI and arbcom cases, you will notice that immediately ceasing all editing of Wikipedia as soon as the report is filed gives you the best chance of escaping sanctions if the case is marginal. I have seen plenty of editors talk themselves into a block or topic ban by pounding on the "I am right, everybody else is wrong, those who complain about my behavior should be sanctioned" drum. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed. To the point that we have a handy page about it: WP:BOOMERANG. -- The Anome (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I see your point, and, indeed, it is a strong one and has probably already had effect in this thread; however, please note that "I am right, everybody else is wrong, those who complain about my behavior should be sanctioned" is not at all my position; my position is more closely represented by "I am wrong; two other editors - specifically, you and Roxy the dog - are also wrong and should be sanctioned if I will be; I will listen to those who complain, but I will respond if I don't agree with their argument", which is a bit different.OlJa 14:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I feel this discussion is now coming to a natural end, per WP:STICK. I suspect that if Oldstone James quietly walks away at this point, and bears in mind the advice given them above, and changes their editing behavior to match, everything should be well. Otherwise, I suspect that someone is going to close this soon by imposing the topic ban. -- The Anome (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- At the risk of prolonging a discussion that has probably run its course, Oldstone James, your position here is entirely counterproductive if your goal is to continue to volunteer your time at this website. The variety of defense (such that it is) that you are contributing here is to complain that other people who got here first are also doing bad things. Aside from the obvious tu quoque cringe-worthy-ness of this argument, it's also been philosophically lampooned in other contexts at Wikipedia with the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS tag. The way Wikipedia disciplinary actions function is that people who make these kinds of arguments get shitcanned on the regular. And anyway, Yeah, but they're just as bad! is just about as weak an argument you can make... so don't make it. I know it probably frustrates your sense of justice and fair play, but you're really much better off if you just let it go as The Anome intimates above. jps (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's just my position - not an argument. Never said stating this position is a good idea; likewise, never said it would make a good argument: I just pointed out that what Guy Macon described in his comment didn't represent my position at all well. That said, I've already stomached the fact that tu quoque isn't going to help my case.OlJa 17:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- You do realize that addressing every single person who supports this topic ban in an attempt to argue with them is counter-productive, right? Grandpallama (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- What has been deemed to be my tendentious editing - more specifically, the violation of 3RR - has already warranted myself a week's block ([119]). From then, the only reverts that I have made apart from this one: [120] (whose edit summary, by the way, said "Please revert this edit if you believe my judgement is wrong", and the following edit respected this revert) were all reverts to the WP:STATUS QUO, of an edit that had no consensus ([121], [122], [123]). I haven't even violated WP:3RR. Can you please explain why you believe this is a case of IDHT?OlJa 22:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
User requests account cancellation
Could an administrator please look at User talk:Vecchio.betti.marco where the cancellation of that account is requested? Thanks. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think what he's asking for (although he doesn't realise it) is a block. Guettarda (talk) 03:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) If by “cancelled” this editor means deleted, then I don’t think that’s going to per WP:UPOL#Deleting and merging accounts. The account, however, may be blocked/locked if he’s claiming it’s compromised per WP:COMPACC. —- Marchjuly (talk) 03:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah it's either compromised or shared. I blocked the account without autoblock, and left him a note recommending that he create a new account and enable email (so they could reset their password). Guettarda (talk) 03:31, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- This is now a CU block. See User:Marcobetticarboncini1. It's possible they're both compromised/shared, but they'll have to convince me or another CU of that.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah it's either compromised or shared. I blocked the account without autoblock, and left him a note recommending that he create a new account and enable email (so they could reset their password). Guettarda (talk) 03:31, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
User Surtsicna
- Myles Ponsonby, 12th Earl of Bessborough (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Patrick Chichester, 8th Marquess of Donegall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Surtsicna (talk · contribs) has repeatedly removed relevant (for nobility) ancestry content as "unsourced and trivial". After I reverted, adding a source, and explained that there is only one R in WP:BRD, he/she reverted another time, and seems to believe that discussion is done in edit summaries.
It isn't. I asked him/her to self-revert after the his/her last revert, but he/she declined, and said "sue me".
Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HandsomeFella (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Guilty as charged. There are as many Rs in BRD as you can roll of a tongue when the subject is a living person and the content is unsourced and challenged. This has been explained to HandsomeFella. Surtsicna (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- *off
- I added a source, but you may not have noticed. And it's not that ancestry – at least not this kind – is negative or controversial. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:10, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BLP says "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source." (Emphasis in original.) The material was challenged when Surtsicna removed it, so now it's your WP:BURDEN to provide inline, reliable sources. Woodroar (talk) 15:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- You cited a self-published source. Extensive discussions about thepeerage.com have resulted in the consensus that it is not a reliable source. Whether this content is negative or controversial cannot be ascertained because we do not know who those people were - or whether they even existed. We are discussing a living person's family, and that should never be done without reliable sources. Surtsicna (talk) 15:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah right, those people probably didn't exist, and he got his earldom from thin air ...
- Most articles have unsourced data in them, but it's most often uncontroversial and accepted as fact without sourcing. HandsomeFella (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that thepeerage.com is not a reliable source and should not be used. Doug Weller talk 15:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- thepeerage.com is not a reliable source ... and there isn't really a need to have this many generations of ancestry either - great-grandparents would be sufficient. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, removing the article altogether and just having one on the earldom would probably be sufficient. There's nothing in this article that suggests that Myles Ponsonby has done anything notable. He does not appear to be part of the House of Lords or hold any other particular power. He's the hatrack on which this title currently hangs. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Drama panchi
Drama panchi (talk · contribs) is a relatively new editor who mostly edits articles about Indian television shows, movies and actors/actresses. He's also uploading images for several of those articles and that's the immediate issue here. His upload log here and on commons show all images have been deleted. I've left some very pointed notes about this but they've never responded to that, or to any warning or message left on their talk page. More than a few of the articles they have created have been moved to draft space and others have been deleted or being considered. One article they recreated so many times after it was moved to draft space that it had to be protected. They then changed the spelling to get around the protection. Multiple notes about that article were left on their talk page about working on the draft version with no response or change in behavior. There's a useful editor somewhere here, but right now it's not really visible. I've got concerns about there general ability to work with Wikipedia policies and ability to communicate. An outside review would be helpful here and ideally, an acknowledgement from Drama panchi that they will stop uploading images and only create in draft space until they become more familiar with Wikipedia's policies. Given their utter lack of communication, I think a block will be needed to get their attention. Thank you. Ravensfire (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- While I was typing this up, Edgar181 blocked them for 31 hours for persistent copyright infringement. I feel the issues are a bit deeper and still warrant discussion here. Ravensfire (talk) 15:42, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have extended the block on Drama panchi by 48 hours due to block evasion with the account AmazingDramaplus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Looking at Drama panchi's contributions to articles, at the concerns expressed on Drama pachi's user talk page, and at Drama pachi's complete lack of response to anything, I think this user is either unwilling or incapable of collaborative editing. I suggest an indefinite block until the user demonstrates that they are capable of responding to existing talk page inquiries and concerns. -- Ed (Edgar181) 11:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I endorse an indefinite block until they decide to speak. We have too many of these sorts of ignorantly headstrong users who show up to make a ton of changes to Indian articles, maybe they're being paid, they rarely speak, they leave a trail of destruction and good editors like Ravensfire have to lose their minds climbing up warning trees just to get any remedy. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Potential copyvio in sandbox
Someone with their admin rights turned on should take a look at IP 168.8.214.26's contribs to Draft:Sandbox, which appear to be the lyrics to Old Town Road, and thus a copyright violation. I have removed the text and would revdelete if I trusted my corporate network enough to log in to my main account, but here we are. *waves to the IT people* Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 15:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Legal threat by IP at Federal Bank
195.62.53.161, in their edit summary at 16:58 on 15 April 2019, appears to have made a legal threat. "History changed by someone.True history should always recognized.Dont change It. It's a Legal warning" (shown in the edit summary, not difference on the page). PohranicniStraze (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Global Savings Group - company is suppressing criticism
The Company Global Savings Group is systematically suppressing criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Savings_Group — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.221.112.219 (talk) 18:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Brittany Ferries
TonyMWeaver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 80.7.177.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
TonyMWeaver has been seeking to include a complimentary phrase about this companies new logo since 12 November 2018. It has been removed at least nine times by myself and another editor but each time has been put back in by either his account or the IP account. At no time have any messages left on their talk pages about it been replied to nor have they taken it to the talk page as per WP:BRD or WP:ONUS. The phrase is actually a copyvio of [124] Lyndaship (talk) 18:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What does the community do when a user, namely LE, declares that he or she does not intend to abide by the basic policies of Wikipedia, namely WP:NOR?
- LE on 13 April, in reference to Agricolae's explanation that reaching original conclusions through scholarship is prohibited by WP:SYNT: "Which is a clear example of the policies Wikipedia needs to abolish!"
- LE on 14 April: "Original research should be highly praised and sought after as nothing else gives any article independent value.The powers that want to make Wikipedia a pile of vomit that does nothing but regurgitate what can (and therefore should) be found elsewhere get far too much respect!"
- LE on 15 April, in response to Agricolae's explanation that WP:NOR is one of the core policies of Wikipedia: "And I trust I left no ambiguity as to my contempt for that attitude. Textbook example of 'a custom more honoured in the breach than the observance.' Praise complaint, not compliance; eschew deference, demand defiance. But on a self-published site that regards other self-published sites being self-published sites as something wrong with them, I realize the herd mentality is strong."
And while we are at it, I would also like to throw in some name-calling that most people outgrow in primary school. When he or she came up with the term Surtsickness in January, I assumed it was just a pathetic way to express annoyance with me by twisting my name. Today, however, it has been made clear that Surtsickness is meant to be my diagnosis, "the idee fixe that Wikipedia needs less of what it actually needs more of; also, irrational attachment to misguided policies that can be twisted to achieve this end."
The very least we should do, in my opinion, is thoroughly investigate this user's contribution, especially those pertaining to biographies of living people. Surtsicna (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- In this particular case, what the community ought to do is eliminate the offending policies. Obviously.LE (talk) 20:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there are certain policies you feel should be eliminated, you are free to formally propose that and work for that goal, but what you cannot do is just disregard them because you disagree with them. That is disruptive. 331dot (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- LE was much the same in a series of supercentenarian AfDs a few months back, though without name calling; LE's presence there was varying degrees of helpful and unhelpful. Here, here, and (my personal favorite) here featured the same call to arms to violate policy in the name of liking things, plus here for some more overwrought commentary (though, in fairness, that was a pretty heated discussion all around), so it's not just in this dispute with Surtsicna. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:58, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I would not say much the same. In this instance, LE plainly says he or she is aware of the WP:NOR policy but does not and will not follow it. I now see that DrKay brought the policy to LE's attention already in January, but LE said: "To be clear, I consider anything BUT original research to have no independent value..." Surtsicna (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Different policies, but the same attitude of LE refusing to follow them if they don't happen to be to LE's liking. And the diffs from January are also quite demonstrative. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I would not say much the same. In this instance, LE plainly says he or she is aware of the WP:NOR policy but does not and will not follow it. I now see that DrKay brought the policy to LE's attention already in January, but LE said: "To be clear, I consider anything BUT original research to have no independent value..." Surtsicna (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- LE was much the same in a series of supercentenarian AfDs a few months back, though without name calling; LE's presence there was varying degrees of helpful and unhelpful. Here, here, and (my personal favorite) here featured the same call to arms to violate policy in the name of liking things, plus here for some more overwrought commentary (though, in fairness, that was a pretty heated discussion all around), so it's not just in this dispute with Surtsicna. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:58, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- If there are certain policies you feel should be eliminated, you are free to formally propose that and work for that goal, but what you cannot do is just disregard them because you disagree with them. That is disruptive. 331dot (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- We don't care whether anyone likes our policies or not. If someone doesn't like a policy they're welcome to try to get consensus to change it, but they can't just disregard them. Ignore all rules doesn't mean "do whatever the hell you feel like", and if LE or anyone else isn't willing to follow policy, they're not welcome here. ‑ Iridescent 22:05, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, more original research might be good. I, for one, miss the days of Time Cube. They don't make research like that anymore. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Further to the above, LE's response to the above was "That references are unobtainable elsewhere is precisely what makes the case for having them here. Remember, only original research can ever give an article independent value.". Can anyone see any reason not to show this user the door? ‑ Iridescent 21:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- No. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:37, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Refusing to acknowledge a consensus
For some time now, a lengthy debate has been going on at WikiProject World Rally. It has been through article talk pages and a DRN and ultimately an RfC. The RfC expired this past week and I implemented changes to one of the affected articles based on the results. However, Pelmeen10 subsequently reverted those changes, claiming that "no such consensus had been reached". However, I believe that it is evident from the RfC discussion that the consensus does exist—though perhaps not unanimously—and that Pelmeen10 is deliberately misrepresenting things to prevent it from being implemented. Here are some of the things he has said in the RfC thread since it closed:
- "Most of the people involved in this discussion were against, including me."
This is incorrect. There were only six people involved in the discussion, and three of them voiced support for the proposed change. Pelmeen10 supported a different change, while another editor outright opposed it and the final editor only pointed out that Pelmeen10's proposal did not satisfy WP:MOSACCESS.
- "This whole Rfc was so wrongly started."
I do not know what he means by this. The RfC was started as a suggestion of the DRN and as the person who started it, I did not receive any notification that I had not followed the procedure correctly.
- "Like there is only 3 possible ways to go."
Again, I'm not sure what he means by this. The RfC was open for a month and there was ample opportunity to put forward proposals. I limited it to three because I could not think of any more.
- "Most people actually preferred not to make any changes."
Again, this is incorrect. Pelmeen10 himself suggested minor changes and three editors supported completely reworking the table.
- "Anyway, this discussion has not been closed yet."
A bot removed the RfC template after 30 days, taking the RfC off the list of active discussions. The discussion itself had run its course two weeks previously.
All in all, I believe that a consensus has been formed as the result of the RfC. Pelmeen10 is refusing to acknowledge it and has taken to misrepresenting things to justify reverting edits he disagreed with. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- So, I'm pretty new here edited, but I think in this situation, where the issue is contentious or consensus may not be clear, you might want to request a formal closure by an uninvolved editor or admin at WP:ANRFC. Just letting the rfc template expire doesn't appear to have created a solution. There's also no actual time limit on RfCs, so you could just add the tag back for a while. Safrolic (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Safrolic — I'm actually not that new. I used to post under another name and had 35,000+ edits before I forgot my password and had to create a new account. This issue has been to multiple talk pages, DRN and now an RfC. The time has come to move things along. By his own admission, Pelmeen10 forgot about the RfC discussion for two weeks, by which time the initial 30 days had elapsed so I don't think he can reasonably claim that the discussion is not only unresolved, but that there is no consensus. I will take things to ANRFC, but given how he has misrepresented the situation by claiming no-one supported the proposal, I think ANI is an appropriate place to raise the issue. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:03, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Lute88 & Galassi
Lute88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Galassi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Quite a long time it is known that one of these accounts is a sockpuppet. See discussions: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Lute88 of 2008, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lute88/Archive of 2017. But strangely, no measures have been taken so far. In the meantime they continue to support each other. For example, Galassi reverting edits of the user Αντικαθεστωτικός in the one article: [125] and Lute88 reverting the same user in the mentioned article: [126] It seems to me, that Lute88 account is usually used in a more aggressive manner. Thus, today, Galassi had reverted my edit, but then he made self-revert. But then, suddenly, Lute88 made a revert again: [127] This is some kind of abnormal situation. So, I think it will be better to block the Lute88 account, so that Galassi does not feel free from compliance with the rules of Wikipedia.--Nicoljaus (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- You should file a case then at SPI if sockpuppetry is the main problem. 2601:1C0:6D00:845:A1CC:ECC6:F0C4:44F4 (talk) 05:01, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, the question has already been disassembled at SPI in 2017. But perhaps it’s worth finding out why users with dynamic IP of 2601 series and disruptive behavior ( [128], [129]) and Lute88 support each other so often.--Nicoljaus (talk) 06:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, well it appears it was already established that Lute88 and Galassi share an IP address, so any major collusion between the accounts would obviously be a possible matter of either sock or meat puppetry. Pinging @Bbb23:, the original checkuser at the SPI. Black Kite (talk) 08:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, the question has already been disassembled at SPI in 2017. But perhaps it’s worth finding out why users with dynamic IP of 2601 series and disruptive behavior ( [128], [129]) and Lute88 support each other so often.--Nicoljaus (talk) 06:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I also have to point out that Galassi was put under an indefinite revert limitation back in 2011 under Eastern Europe DS, which they seem to have ignored routinely while I wasn't watching closely. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- And my past interactions with Lute88 suggest that they should be put under a similar limitation, if not topic-banned from EE topics at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree. Totally inpolite. I don't understand why he does such things. He has been reverting everything i wrote, but i didn't understand that he was the same person. Now i known. thank you. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Query
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Anyone know if we have an "SC vandal" onsite? User:PISSSTREAMINGFROMMYASS claims to be that person, which is why the account is blocked, but if this part of a larger network it should be tagged or categorized as such. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- And this one - "User:Acc creation not disabled lol" TomStar81 (Talk) 00:09, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Scratch that, Drmies (talk · contribs) got it. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:23, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- TomStar81, I ran CU--it's that one vandal, I keep forgetting their stupid name, who deals in obscenities. There's an LTA report somewhere, and a few accounts from a couple of days ago were already blocked. BTW it was your block that alerted me to the username, so thanks for that. Drmies (talk) 00:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Scratch that, Drmies (talk · contribs) got it. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:23, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Regarding an edit to "Mera Joota Hai Japani"
I need to edit the title page of the Japanese Wikipedia about a song "Mera Joota Hai Japani" as I firmly believe that オイラの靴は日本製,このズボンは英国製,頭の赤い帽子はロシア製 and でも心はインド製 are the incorrect translations of "Mera Joota Hai Japani, Yeh Patloon Inglistani, Sar Pe Lal Topi Rusi, and Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani" and 私の靴が日本語,この ズボン が イギリスタン語,頭 の 赤い 帽子 が ロシア語 and しかし 心 が ヒンドスタン語 are the correct translations of "Mera Joota Hai Japani, Yeh Patloon Inglistani, Sar Pe Lal Topi Rusi, and Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani", so I want to replace the former lyrics with the latter lyrics, but the other few editors are not letting me edit this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.8.250.238 (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the English and Japanese Wikipedias are completely different things, so unless a ja.wiki admin happens to read this, there's nothing we can do for you here. Black Kite (talk) 08:39, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Stop forum-shopping. You've asked at WP:AN ([130] and [131]), you've asked at WP:DRN ([132]), you've been relentlessly harassing us in #wikipedia-en-help. We are not going to do as you ask, since what you're demanding someone do is replace an accurate translation with a "blind idiot" machine translation. You have repeatedly been pointed to ja.wp and relaated IRC channels yet from all appearances you straight-up refuse to use them (or, more likely, you cannot use them). —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I stand corrected. You just revert off adverse responces. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- One almost has to admire the chutzpah of responding to an accusation of reverting adverse responses by reverting it. —Cryptic 10:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Honestly, this guy's starting to torque me off. He's been forum-shopping on here and on IRC for the past week, and his refusal to listen to anyone is such that he's ban-on-sight if he shows up in -en-help (though this is only part of the issue; he also, if on long enough, starts randomly pinging people). I'm fearing that it may ultimately take rangeblocks of his ranges on en.wp and ja.wp to get him to stop this. He's not convincing anyone. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 10:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- One almost has to admire the chutzpah of responding to an accusation of reverting adverse responses by reverting it. —Cryptic 10:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I stand corrected. You just revert off adverse responces. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
You both are wrong my friends,I am not forum-shopping at all,it's true that I've asked at the Administrators' Noticeboard of the English Wikipedia at the Incidents' section to clarify the difference between reviews,and also that I've asked it at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard of the English Wikipedia as you are saying,I am not at all relentlessly harassing you in the Help Channel of the English Wikipedia,Of course you are going to do as I ask,since what I'm demanding someone to do is to replace replace a wrong translation with a translation I created myself,the reason for my not using ja.wp and all related IRC channels is that nobody is there for helping me with this matter,It's not that I straight-up refuse to use them or I simply "cannot" use them when pointed there,so if it stands more likely for you,then improve your "appearances", I might revert off adverse responses,there is no "chutzpah" in responding to such bogus kind of accusations,Finally I'm not starting to torque you off,I've been neither forum-shopping here nor on IRC for the past week,I don't have any refusal to listen to anyone so it's useless to ban me on sight when I'm on the Help Channel of the English Wikipedia,I often start randomly pinging people if on long enough just for getting help regarding this issue,Obviously I am convincing everyone so if you fear that it may ultimately take rangeblocks of my ranges on en.wp and ja.wp to get me to stop this,that is nonsense
- "Replace a wrong translation" is an outright lie. Native Japanese speakers at ja.wp have specifically told you the translation you want to put in is gibberish, and your responce to that, as detailed above, is to revert off the rebuttal which explains why your translation is incorrect. And yes, you have been relentlessly pestering -en-help, and the channel operators there can back me up on that, given that they're the ones who have to send you packing because of your continued refusal to listen to anyone who knows what the hell they're saying, your constant reverting of rebuttals to anything you say, and your tendency to mass-ping people if the helpers in channel refuse to jump aat your command. You've had two of your IPs blocked within the past day for editing or reverting people's comments on en.wp pages, you've forced ja.wp to semi-protect the article in question and their non-Japanese-speakers help page as a direct result of your sterile obstinance, and you are ban-on-sight if you show up in -en-help because you refuse to listen to anything us helpers have to say that isn't "How high?" Darklords show more contrition and self-awareness than this, and that isn't a compliment on their part, either. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 07:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- While we're at it, you have also been, on your IPv4 address, reverting off my explanation of the situation at the DRN thread you started. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 08:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Aer Lingus vandalism
- Rangeblock request
There appears to be a user/users from an IP range constantly vandalising the fleet section without any citation. Please see examples here: 2001:bb6:251d:2258:f41a:393b:a778:dfac 2001:BB6:251D:2258:4C5A:86B6:108F:33BE 2001:BB6:251D:2258:9540:4DD7:F388:A846 and 2001:bb6:251d:2258:9540:4dd7:f388:a846 [[133]] [[134]] [[135]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angryskies (talk • contribs) 12:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't have time to look into the complaint right now, but these are all within 2001:bb6:251d:2258::/64. —DoRD (talk) 12:15, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've had a quick look. There's a source that Aer Lingus has 14 A321LRs on order not 8,[136] and another source here seems to support all the changes. There's nothing on the talk page - it doesn't look like obvious vandalism to me. Maybe User:Angryskies could elaborate (or update the article). -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi there, the only reason that I had reverted these edits, was because the IP users were not leaving any citations. If the user had left these citations, then there would have been no problem. Angryskies (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't want to sound too critical, but if we blocked every new user who didn't provide a source we might not have much of an encyclopaedia. I'd say no block is needed at this time - hopefully the editors at the page can sort out the right way of expressing the relevant information. If in doubt, a note on the talk page might be useful. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi there, the only reason that I had reverted these edits, was because the IP users were not leaving any citations. If the user had left these citations, then there would have been no problem. Angryskies (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've had a quick look. There's a source that Aer Lingus has 14 A321LRs on order not 8,[136] and another source here seems to support all the changes. There's nothing on the talk page - it doesn't look like obvious vandalism to me. Maybe User:Angryskies could elaborate (or update the article). -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Blocking User:Reckon Her from Editing Belfield FM Article or Locking the Article from Unapproved Editing
To whom it may concern,
My name is William McCartney, I was previously the station manager of Belfield FM, the entity which the article in question details. The current station manager has been voicing her concerns over user "Reckon Her"s (a volunteer at the station) contributions to the article.
While the users contributions have largely fleshed out information on the stations, there have been many instances of unnessicary editorialisation over the history of his edits. Recently I removed some slanderous information about oxygen.ie/the SMEDIA Awards in the relevant section on the page to avoid any potential conflict between their party and the station. There was similarly a minor bit of inappropriate editting with "Keepin' it Country" redirecting to an article on peasant revolts.
The current manager notably expresses distaste towards the controversies section. While detailing the full history of the station is important, this section, as the largest in the entire artilce, has gotten a little out of hand, with some paragraphs lacking citations and essentially being an act of megalomania. Men's Rights Radio is his own show, and there has never been any concerns raised over its naming. While I hold a personal stake in the information about myself, its largely just here say; he messaged me after making that message asking what I thought about that with my real name being included, which seemed a little spiteful.
As a small society with in our university, allowing someone like this to wedge their personal feelings into a encyclopedia entry can have a negative affect on the university's percetion of the station which could lead to a loss of funding and the eventual closure of the station. I urge the administartive team at Wikipedia to review this incident and consider introducing heavier restrictions on the artilce.
Please do let me know if you need any further information or verification.
Yours ever,
William — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nibbihak (talk • contribs) 12:37, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @Nibbihak:, first, you MUST notify individuals that you have opened an ANI thread on them. I have done so for you [[137]] Second, I am not sure ANI is the appropriate place for this. This is a content dispute so far, and the appropriate place for that is the article talk page. Start there. Third, you clearly have a WP:COI, which you seem to acknowledge. I am not familiar enough with our policy on that to advice you how to move forward other than to stop by the TeaHouse and ask for advice on editing with COI. TelosCricket (talk)
- Nibbihak deleted the notification; I have restored it. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- The images in that article are really something. Does Reckon Her really hold copyright to all of them? In any case, I'm going to remove all the ones that look like social media screenshots as potential BLP violations. Cheers, gnu57 13:09, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Is the radio station even notable? Every citation is primary or university-related. Black Kite (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Reckon Her (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2019 (UTC) I am the user in question, sorry I'm new to wikipedia but the station is very relevant to the media of University College Dublin and prior to my editing of the article it was in a poor state which didn't really give the correct information or really any comprehensive detail about the station. I am the Technical Officer of the station and as such thought it would be prudent to put some time into fleshing out the article to give a good idea of the impact of the station and it's relevance to University College Dublin in general. If there's a conflict of interest however I will refrain from editing any further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reckon Her (talk • contribs) 14:58, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
*@Black Kite: Due to the station existing within a college media space, there is a lack of records available about it online. Myself, Reckon Her, and a few others have mainly used paper records within the station to flesh out the article. Nibbiak (talk)
Hello, Reckon Her (And Nibbihak!) -- I have no doubt the station is very relevant to UCD (lovely place, by the way) and notable to everyone there. However, on wikipedia, we judge notability from reliable (preferably secondary) sources. Thus, citations to the station itself or to University materials don't hold a lot of water here. I've done just a very quick search, and I am afraid I am not seeing a lot out there in news or the like--but there's every chance it's out there and I'm missing it. If you could find some sources like those, it would be a big help to the article and the community. Thank you for your efforts. Dumuzid (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your input Dumuzid! Could you provide any insight into what sort of sources would be best to support the article or if there's any way one could reformat it to better reflects its notability? Nibbihak (talk) 15:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi - you need multiple secondary sources - i.e. ones that aren't associated with the college or the radio station. Newspaper or other media articles are good, as are articles on websites. They should be focused on the subject, though - not just mentioning the station in passing. For more detail, have a look at WP:GNG. Black Kite (talk) 15:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
15:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)Reckon Her (talk)as a point of other secondary sources which have mentioned bfm. The controversy around "Keepin it Country" was widely reported on at the time. https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/team-ucd-radio-show-keepin-15520757 https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/keeping-it-country-agriculture-students-sorry-for-lewd-remarks-on-ucd-radio-show-37603219.html https://www.spin1038.com/news-and-sport/ucd-students-apologise-disrespectful-comments-made-college-radio-234260 https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ucd-students-apologise-for-alleged-sexual-comments-about-students-on-radio-show-890520.html https://www.herald.ie/news/college-radio-show-sorry-for-sexual-comments-about-female-students-in-unacceptable-broadcast-37602916.html Would this be the direction we should take with the article? I could flesh out this specific controversy and search for other outside sources.
Reckon Her and I have settled this issue in our own litigation. If anyone has any additional input on the page then I suggest continuing on the relevant talk page Nibbihak (talk) 16:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Nibbihak and Reckon Her: I've nominated the article for deletion. Your sources, whilst they mention the "Keepin It Country" in great detail, only mention the radio station in question in passing, which fails WP:NOTABLE and WP:42. And according to The Golden Rule (other name for WP:42), the meaning of notability is: "Articles generally require significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the topic." I'll be happy to withdraw if you provide sources that talk about the radio station in detail, not in passing. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask me. Thank you. The Duke 22:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Reckon Her (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2019 (UTC) @The Duke is there anyway to provide non-online (i.e. paper) secondary sources to a wikipedia article?
https://soundsidecolour.itch.io/escapebellefieldfm some person who we never learned the identity of made a game that used the stations name and likeness last year. we actually had quite a bit of an issue with this as it was completely unwarented and as a result filed a dmca which resulted in a name change of the developers project. would something like this help the case of proving the notability of the station, seeing as it inspired (or was at least featured in) someone else's art? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nibbihak (talk • contribs) 12:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Accusation of undisclosed WP:PAID editing / large scale reversion of edits
This morning, I noticed that a new account, User:Renmap0o, was reverting lots of edits by Britishfinance with identical edit summaries - see for example this diff, but there are numerous others with identical edit summaries. I reverted, and left a note on their talk page saying that the username alone wasn't a valid reason to revert their edits - see the discussion at User talk:Renmap0o.
Renmap0o responded by noting that there was an article in the Irish Times accusing Britishfinance of making numerous paid edits - there is a link in the user page discussion linked to above, and on investigation I found several other such article - see this, this and this.
I want to be clear that I have no view about whether Britishfinance has indeed been engaging in paid editing - British and Irish financial matters are not areas I have much expertise in, and I don't feel qualified to judge whether their edits are indeed biased or suggest paid editing. I do note that Britishfinance has been around a while, has a clean block log, and seems to have been involved in editing in lots of areas aside from finance. Nevertheless, given the accusations that Renmap0o has been making, the mass reverting (which I have got myself involved in by unreverting), and the Irish Times articles, I thought I should bring the matter here for consideration. I will notify both users now. GirthSummit (blether) 15:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, WP:COIN is probably the most appropriate board. ∯WBGconverse 16:03, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, WP:COIN is probably the most appropriate board. ∯WBGconverse 16:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I will make my main comment below, per normal conversation flow practice, but want to intervene here to correct an inaccuracy - neither the Irish Times ("IDA Ireland has paid for changes to Wikipedia pages about itself and its chief executive") nor the Times are, as stated to have been stated, "accusing Britishfinance of making numerous paid edits" - this simply is not in the articles, with the Times simply noting the editor's level of activity and topics (but the subtitle of the article, without much grounding, does suggest the editor was "attacking Ireland's probity"). So the whole question of paid editing / COIN is poorly based - what the Times touches on is potential negative bias.SeoR (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, I feel this is unfair to me. A new user has entered WP today and been blanking large sections of tax-related articles and PROD'ing other articles. The newspaper article he is quoting I have discussed on my talk page with Smallbones. The article is not about my bias per se, but about the Irish IDA Ireland paying other editors to make their CEO, Martin Shanahan look good. I had the unfortunate experience to come across these paid editors a few months ago (see the Martin Shanahan talk page), and they accused me of bias and bath faith. I left that page and never returned to it.
- I am not a paid editor and nor am I on WP for conflict/warring. I am fully happy to have any WP:COIN review on my work. While many of my WP articles I wrote in my first 6 months were not WP proper standard, I believe that I am writing good WP articles now, and I re-written almost every earlier article I wrote (still a few to finish; just did Tax inversion last night). My tax-related editing uses the highest quality tax academic sources (you can see on Double Irish arrangement, which the Council on Foreign Relations noted as being the "best source" on these tax schemes, noted on its talk page). Just a few days ago, Nobel prize-winning Paul Krugman cited my re-write of Leprechaun economics on this twitter feed (see its talk page).
- I am not an FA/GA ranked WP editor (yet), but I think I am doing very good work on bringing WP's tax-related articles to good academic quality. The editor above is a vandal with an agenda that has nothing to do with building good tax articles on WP. Also note, I am not a tax-SPA, per my user page, I have lots of other non-tax articles. Britishfinance (talk) 16:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Britishfinance I'm sorry that you feel this report was unfair. To be clear, I am not saying that I agree with the accusation - I did note, in my initial post above, your clean block log and your extensive work in areas outside finance. I'm happy to reiterate that, aside from the newspaper articles (which themselves offer no evidence about you), I have no reason to doubt your good faith or to suspect you of being a paid editor. I just thought that, given the aspersions that had been cast, the new user's reverts and my own unreverts, a review of the situation by third parties may be in order.
- Thanks for the suggestion WBG - if I was confident that there was actually a COI problem here, I would have raised a report at COIN. As it is, I am not certain whether the problem is with Britishfinance's work, or whether there is a behavioural problem with User:Renmap0o's casting aspersions and hounding Britishfinance. GirthSummit (blether) 17:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington and QuiteUnusual, since they have also been involved in undoing some of Renmap0s's reverts and PRODs and may wish to comment. GirthSummit (blether) 17:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the articles created and vast edits by BritishFinance. I don't contest that the user has other articles, nor that they don't have citations for the information. It's designed in a way to look like it's within the rules, but its effectively a vast web of propaganda type posts and one-sided information presented to destroy Ireland's reputation internationally. For example, the user might edit the Wikipedia entry/article on tax havens, filling it with information referring to Ireland, pictures of Ireland and slip in examples which also refer to Ireland. Many articles seem to have been corrupted by the user in this way. This user has made 40k+ edits with a big focus being discrediting Ireland in Wikipedia entries. The user has created many pages/articles labeling Ireland as a tax haven and describing the so-called schemes. Then, linking their articles to the other main pages referring to Ireland. It's a vast system and complex web of misinformation. Ireland is primarily referred to as tax haven by eccentric journalists. It's not on the standard lists. It doesn't even have the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe. Nine countries have lower, two have the same and seven are within 5% of the Irish rate. There is obviously some controversy over tax schemes, in not just Ireland, but in many countries worldwide. The user's posts and edits are designed to portray Ireland as not just a tax haven, but the worlds worst offender in the eyes of the international community. Hopefully, the journalists (or authorities) blow open the story of who is really behind this account. It's clearly politically motivated, with a high conflict of interest. If you have any doubt about this, just look at the pages created by the user, links they added and the edits they did. Renmap0o 17:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- The above sounds like the same bad faith and conspiracy-theory type arguments that the IDA Ireland COI marketing team made to me on the Martin Shanahan talk page. No other tax haven-type jurisdiction has ever made a bad edit to the main WP tax haven-type articles in my time, not one; however, we have had several aggressive edits on the Irish-related content. The irony is that the newspaper articles quoted above, if you read them properly, really concern the fact that IDA Ireland pays editors to make Ireland look good tax-wise on WP. And judging by the PROMO/POV state of the articles when I got to them, they got value for money. The issue exploded when Paddy Cosgrave tweeted on this COI-UDP on his twitter feed: here here.
- Google "Ireland tax haven" and you get thousands of Tier 1 RS newspapers on the subject (i.e. it is WP:GNG notable). However, my edits try and avoid even that kind of RS where possible as it leads to WP:SYN; I instead focus on the most cited academic papers on tax-issues from the most cited authors. I can see from WP tax articles that I have edited on that such academic references used to exist, but the articles became so broken from POV editors fighting both sides of the debate. My goal is to restore the encyclopedic integrity of these articles and present the facts as they are. Unfortunately, these facts, as they pertain to Ireland, attract some very inappropriate editing and allegations. Britishfinance (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the articles created and vast edits by BritishFinance. I don't contest that the user has other articles, nor that they don't have citations for the information. It's designed in a way to look like it's within the rules, but its effectively a vast web of propaganda type posts and one-sided information presented to destroy Ireland's reputation internationally. For example, the user might edit the Wikipedia entry/article on tax havens, filling it with information referring to Ireland, pictures of Ireland and slip in examples which also refer to Ireland. Many articles seem to have been corrupted by the user in this way. This user has made 40k+ edits with a big focus being discrediting Ireland in Wikipedia entries. The user has created many pages/articles labeling Ireland as a tax haven and describing the so-called schemes. Then, linking their articles to the other main pages referring to Ireland. It's a vast system and complex web of misinformation. Ireland is primarily referred to as tax haven by eccentric journalists. It's not on the standard lists. It doesn't even have the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe. Nine countries have lower, two have the same and seven are within 5% of the Irish rate. There is obviously some controversy over tax schemes, in not just Ireland, but in many countries worldwide. The user's posts and edits are designed to portray Ireland as not just a tax haven, but the worlds worst offender in the eyes of the international community. Hopefully, the journalists (or authorities) blow open the story of who is really behind this account. It's clearly politically motivated, with a high conflict of interest. If you have any doubt about this, just look at the pages created by the user, links they added and the edits they did. Renmap0o 17:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Since I was mentioned awhile back, I'll add some background. I just saw the article in The Times and in it the IDA effectively accused Britishfinance of being a paid editor. NOt the usual stuff you see in the papers about Wikipedia. Following my usual practice when paid editing is suspected I just asked Britishfinance whether he was paid or not (Note, I don't accuse anybody when I ask these questions. It does amaze me how often - one way or another - that paid editors will expose themselves when asked. Britishfinance's answer pretty much satisfied me that he wasn't. There was none of the usual paid editor song and dance that usually accompanies a denial. I'd said that I'd likely put a notice at WP:COIN if I found anything further, so I looked for the usual indications of paid editing (they are usually pretty obvious, but not 100% proof of course) I didn't find anything, so I didn't post anything to WP:COIN. Of course I did notice that User:Corecontent and User:IDAComms had each declared, after some prodding and poking, that they were being paid by IDA Ireland, and I'm still amazed they weren't dealt with more harshly. It looks like sockpuppetting to me. I suppose IDAComms was only blocked for a Username violation because of his total ignorance of our rules.
I did send a note to one of the journalists involved saying that I though the accusations against Britishfinance looked to be completely out of line. He responded with a question, so I went back and checked more carefully on the public pages where this type of thing can be investigated. There's nothing that I can see that suggests User:Britishfinance is a paid editor. If @Britishfinance: would like, I'll give any reporter from any respectable paper the basic public data and my reading of it and I do think that would clear his username. Please note that my investigations into this type of thing have been mentioned in the Wall Street Journal and the Times of Israel. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Smallbones: I would be comfortable with you sending on public information and your comments to the reporter. appreciate that. Britishfinance (talk) 18:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I see no evidence at all that Britishfinance is a paid editor, but plenty of evidence that there has been paid editing on behalf of some Irish government organisations. Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so, as far as anyone else is concerned, there is just as much chance that Britishfinance is paid as that I am, but what is needed is evidence. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I see nothing in Britishfinance's edits that make me think paid editor. When I hear another editor claiming that Britishfinance's edits are part of a "vast web of propaganda type posts and one-sided information presented to destroy Ireland's reputation internationally," that makes me wonder about that editor's agenda, though. I'm thinking WP:Boomerang here. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Regardless of whether the user, Britishfinance is paid or not, it appears to be highly politically motivated with questionable links. It is not about presenting information in an unbiased way, but a concerted effort to push a political view and present things in a deeply negative light, based on their agenda. The Times in the UK and other reputable publications have linked the account to Paddy Cosgrave, asserting he is manipulating Wikipedia entries for a political campaign against tax systems. I don't know if that is true, but I can see clearly the true purpose of the account, the pages/links created and edits are primarily political purposes and misinformation. His ad campaign and page has just been banned on facebook for these reasons. Even if it is not this person, its clearly a user that is not acting in an honest way, but trying to manipulate perceptions and the reputation of a country based on their own agenda. Renmap0o 19:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Do not attempt to OUT other editors by associating an account with a real life name. Attepmts to out others warrant something rather more severe than Boomerangs.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but it's all in the public domain anyway. The name associated and that users attempts at manipulating Wikipedia articles for their political purposes is all over the media User:Renmap0o, 20:42, 16th April (UTC)
- I don't think Renmap0o is claiming that Britishfinance is Paddy Cosgrave, but that these two individuals may be connected in some way. The media has already been speculating about this in the public domain. These allegations have been made without any hard evidence and therefore cannot be taken seriously by the community. Unless Renmap0o can produce clear evidence that establishes a pattern of POVpushing and biased editing, there is nothing more we can do here. Continuous badgering over the same issue without production of evidence will not be taken seriously or looked at kindly either. It's entirely possible that there may be some NPOV issues with articles whose latest versions Britishfinance has primarily authored (mainly because there were no other editors to challenge their edits), but based on my limited review of Base erosion and profit shifting and Double Irish arrangement, I have not seen any egregious instances of POVpushing. On the contrary, I have benefited from perusing at least these two articles in my professional capacity. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 20:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but it's all in the public domain anyway. The name associated and that users attempts at manipulating Wikipedia articles for their political purposes is all over the media User:Renmap0o, 20:42, 16th April (UTC)
- I find some of the above, and the attempted interference with several articles, disturbing. First, on the paid editing, I cannot find any actual direct accusation against Britishfinance, rather there is renewed coverage of editing by IDA staff and an agency employed by IDA Ireland. But even if there were such an accusation, I would find it wildly improbable. I noticed Britishfinance's editing in their first few weeks on the encyclopedia, and even then their professional knowledge of finance, and their approach to editing, with a large number of small incremental edits (hence the large totals - this is one editing pattern in Wikipedia, with others dropping one massive edit changing many kb), were clear. The editor in question, as it happens, semi-retired in late March, a pity, but during their 13 months of Wikipedia activity, they made a decent contribution to a whole range of areas. We need editors like this, and I hope the community takes a seriously dim view of unfounded allegations thrown about by new single-purpose accounts against people with solid track records. I see no evidence for statements like "The Times in the UK and other reputable publications have linked the account to Paddy Cosgrave" - as far as I can see, Cosgrave just referenced some articles in recent days, but they were edited months ago, or more. To me the edits themselves had and have the look of "insider" - not politically motivated, but the knowledge of someone in the legal, tax management or accounting professions. We don't need to know, but we can note that the user, I think in an early discussion about their chosen username, disclosed "finance professional" and lately mentioned that they had been able to be so active as they had had some time off mainstream work (great that Wikipedia got a good chunk of said time - many of us could use more time to work on the project not taken from after-bedtime evenings, lunch, etc.). I also see no evidence of special anti-Irish bias - the use of Ireland's tax regime by various corporate entities is well-known for decades, is the topic of much writing and debate, and these tactics are important to many large entities (the 13+ billion Apple episode is not a random thing). And Britishfinance has also edited general "tax management" articles, which, if read, make clear that many other countries accommodate some "tax tactics" - see deals done by Luxembourg, the Netherlands, etc. As the new user today notes, Ireland is far from the bottom of the corporate tax league on the base rate - but I see no evidence that Britishfinance ever said any such thing anyway. What they and other editors did explain was how one might, and many do, achieve effective near-zero tax liabilities. All in all, this seems a clear case of unjustified attack, and, ironically, attempted biased editing.SeoR (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
The attacks against Britishfinance by a newly created, potentially paid SPA and the rumors spun by some Irish media outlets don't exactly strike me as significant. In fact, the articles doesn't accuse him of paid or COI editing at all, its just an Irish government spokesman fuming about his writings on Ireland's unorthodox tax structures and the use of these structures by large multinationals to avoid paying loads of European taxes. Parroting these accusations is embarrassing, and this should not have been brought up without better evidence. Additionally, even attempting to connect a user to an identity is a violation of WP:OUT and redacting the name from this noticeboard is something admins with more experience on the outing policy should consider. Finally, given the fact that the Irish government (IDA) has paid for editing to wikipedia, and its statement about that editing mentions BF's editing specifically, I think its entirely possible Renmap0o is carrying out dirty work for his employer by casting aspersions and mass reverting and this report plays right into his hands. SWL36 (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Renmap0o: there are 2 or 3 not-so-subtle hints above that you have a WP:COI or are a WP:Paid editor. I really do think that it is better to ask clearly - without accusing anybody - if somebody is a paid editor. So, Renmap0o, are you a paid editor and/or do you have any connection to IDA Ireland?
- Similarly, are you accusing Britishfinance of being a paid editor? Do you have any evidence of this? Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, allegations of editorializing were first made in August 2018 on the talk page of the article. The discussion was archived by Britishfinance and can be found here — Talk:Ireland as a tax haven/Archive 1#Highly editorialized content, author appears to have strong anti-Irish bias.. It took me a couple of hours to analyze a section of the article "Ireland as a tax haven", where I found some serious issues. You are welcome to take a look and comment: Talk:Ireland as a tax haven#"Captured state". — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 01:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I use two of these articles, and I’d say they’re a good summary. And pretty fair. But anyway, the original point of this notice seems invalid, no Paid Editing or CoI. What’s left might be some work in balancing of tone. For example, Nearly Headless Nick cites two blocks of content. In the first, BritushFinance seems to have been scrupulous in a debate. In the second, Nick may have found room fit textual and POV improvement. But this is not Article Improvement space, is it? 91.193.178.5 (talk) 05:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thus, from Renmap0o, is just embarrassing Conspiracy Theorist rubbish: “It's designed in a way to look like it's within the rules, but its effectively a vast web of propaganda type posts and one-sided information presented to destroy Ireland's reputation internationally.“ Seriously? Propaganda, destroying Ireland’s reputation? All Europe knows about the tax games.91.193.178.5 (talk) 05:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- "[...] Nick may have found room fit textual and POV improvement." — No, that's a mischaracterization. The entire section on "Captured state" in Ireland as a tax haven is full of misrepresentations, original research and original synthesis; and I haven't even started looking at the remainder of the article. In any case, I believe there may be a need for a thorough review of these articles, just to be sure. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 06:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think if you read the discussion referred to at Talk:Ireland as a tax haven/Archive 1#Highly editorialized content, the author appears to have strong anti-Irish bias., you will see that (1) almost all the refs the editor quoted were actually already in the article, and (2) in almost all cases, the refs they quoted proved the editor was wrong in their interpretation. I think reading Talk:Ireland as a tax haven/Archive 1#Highly editorialized content, the author appears to have strong anti-Irish bias., which I protected and archived as help for future discussions, will hopefully show the good-faith lengths I have gone to in responding to this specific article. I am not a perfect WP editor, but I am not a "conspiracy theory" or PAID editor, and I do think my tax-related articles materially improve WP in an area that it is really weak on (the WP Tax Project is largely dead). Per my earlier statements above, Paul Krugman and the Council on Foreign Relations have publically referenced two of them? I will do the same reply to Sir Nicholas comments on the "Captured State" sub-section, which I believe I can resolve (but I appreciate that tighter wording can be used in place), however, I am in a new job and just can't get the time to do just now. Again, I think I deserve some fairness and balance here. Britishfinance (talk) 08:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- "[...] Nick may have found room fit textual and POV improvement." — No, that's a mischaracterization. The entire section on "Captured state" in Ireland as a tax haven is full of misrepresentations, original research and original synthesis; and I haven't even started looking at the remainder of the article. In any case, I believe there may be a need for a thorough review of these articles, just to be sure. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 06:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am an agreement that this is Renmap0o with the problem. I see no specific issues with Britishfinance's work (far from it, it appears to be high quality and well cited). Suggesting a single editor or small group of editors is some how under orders to demolish Ireland's reputation is a huge leap and in any case vastly overrates the power of Wikipedia. No case to answer. QuiteUnusual (talk) 10:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Given that Renmap0o has exactly zero contribution to the article space (all of their contributions were reverted), and that all their contribution to other namespaces consists in casting aspersions, it looks to me that this is an appropriate case for a NOTHERE indefinite block.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @QuiteUnusual and Ymblanter: No doubt Renmap0o's approach to the whole situation was ill-advised, and it's probably because they are not well-acquainted with our project. However, I think there are enough reasons to go ahead with a thorough review of the articles (see Talk:Ireland as a tax haven#"Captured state"). In the meantime, we should AGF with Britishfinance. There is no evidence of WP:COI/WP:PAID, although the possibility of NPOV issues with their edits cannot be completely discounted (see link above). This is a wiki after all and the community has the power to evaluate the edits of its users, including yours and mine. As the Russians would say: doveryai, no proveryai. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 10:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am never
imposedopposed to an investigation but the arguments presented are incredibly weak. E.g, Britishfinance has edited a lot: Lots of people have lots of edits because they have lots of time - it is not an indication that they are paid to edit. Britishfinance only edits on one subject: I see plenty of work that is not even tangentially related to Irish tax system. E.g., this article expansion. Journalists claiming something is biased is hardly a clinching argument given how biased the media is. Etc. QuiteUnusual (talk) 11:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)- @QuiteUnusual: I agree Renmap0o's arguments are weak specially when their allegations of bias are not backed by diffs and links. They should stop with the allegations of paid editing immediately and instead focus on backing their assertions with evidence. Or else, it won't be long before an administrator blocks them. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 11:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am never
- @QuiteUnusual and Ymblanter: No doubt Renmap0o's approach to the whole situation was ill-advised, and it's probably because they are not well-acquainted with our project. However, I think there are enough reasons to go ahead with a thorough review of the articles (see Talk:Ireland as a tax haven#"Captured state"). In the meantime, we should AGF with Britishfinance. There is no evidence of WP:COI/WP:PAID, although the possibility of NPOV issues with their edits cannot be completely discounted (see link above). This is a wiki after all and the community has the power to evaluate the edits of its users, including yours and mine. As the Russians would say: doveryai, no proveryai. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 10:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Given that Renmap0o has exactly zero contribution to the article space (all of their contributions were reverted), and that all their contribution to other namespaces consists in casting aspersions, it looks to me that this is an appropriate case for a NOTHERE indefinite block.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
@Smallbones: I’m not paid and don’t have any connection to IDA. I just had a look and was shocked by what I saw. I don’t know if they are a paid, but I’d be confident they are receiving funding from somewhere given the large amount of time spent maintaining and pushing this political view on Wikipedia over the past year. I don't know how you can produce evidence of this, but hopefully, the journalists uncover something. The user is responsible for 40k+ edits on Wikipedia since last March, with the prime purpose of labelling Ireland as a tax haven. Sure there are controversy and issues there. I don't think anyone is denying that, but one-sided tone/information presentation is an understatement. It's incredibly biased and reads more like the input of a political group/campaigning. The user created many pages, edited many and linked most information on Wikipedia regarding Ireland to this label, by either selectively inserting examples and/or linking back to the pages they created themselves for this purpose. The more I read, the more I realised how brilliant it was (in terms of manipulation). I'll give them that and it would make a great case study for a student. Even things like slipping in pics/examples of Ireland on Wikipedia articles broadly discussing offshore, offshoring, tax or tax havens. This user and their vendetta/crusade against the Irish tax system has been a discussion on Reddit threads as far back as 6 months ago Here and it looks like a previous history of controversy on Wikipedia too. They are obviously savvy about the system, rules and how to manipulate it. Probably someone from a tech background, which fits the profile of who the media is associating this account with and its not just the Irish media, but also international. It's likely not the end, but just the beginning of the scandal, as new articles are popping up. In recent days, it's heated up when the user has been linked to a political campaign against the Irish tax system, which makes sense based on the key theme of most of their editing. That group/person was banned from Facebook for running a fraudulent and deceitful ad campaign. Highly biased and manipulative Wikipedia articles are created by User Britishfinace here, and then this campaign/group links to those articles for credibility. Is it acceptable for a user, that at the very minimum, is clearly representing a political vendetta, to manipulate Wikipedia articles on such a massive scale, as to serve their own personal political purposes and agenda? Does the platform accept editors who are this biased, running misinformation and political campaigns? Renmap0o 10:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Renmap0o: When you make claims of "political campaigning", "selectively inserting examples", "linking back to pages" etc, it would be really helpful if you could link us to such instances, or produce diffs to back up those claims. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 11:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Nearly Headless Nick:If you look up anything related to Ireland and it's tax system and check the history of it you can see britishfinance has got his mitts on most of it. It's like a full-time job. Here is an example of a page the user created and edited personally this year. Its one of many. They usually link this page they created to most other Wikipedia pages regarding Ireland, tax havens or its tax system in the "See Also" section, along with editing those pages/articles with sections, pictures and examples pushing the "Ireland is a tax haven" line. The "See Also" section is a great way to scan through pages created and edited by the user. I found heaps but was only scratching the surface. I was very impressed by the scale of this. It's a lot of work. As has been mentioned, 40k+ edits since March last year mainly focusing on this political crusade against the irish tax system. Renmap0o 11:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
User:Aditya Mishra H1N1
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May I ask the Community to weigh in on Aditya Mishra H1N1's behaviour, initially at Burhan Wani [138] followed by their nasty comment on my talk page? It's quite unacceptable on Wikipedia IMHO, esp. given that the user has already received a couple of warnings by different editors. Thanks — kashmīrī TALK 17:15, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- The article content needs to be discussed on the talk page (I haven't looked into the rights and wrongs, so the only observation I will make is that changing "killed" to "neutralized" is just an abuse of English, whichever "side" someone might be on), but accusing another editor of being a terrorist is a very clear personal attack, and should result in a block. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed. I will note in passing that I had already previously left what I call a "loaded welcome" on Aditya Mishra H1N1's user talk page, which included an emphatic mention of and wikilink to WP:NPOV -- although amongst numerous other wikilinks.
- As a point of information, Burhan Wani has been dead for a couple of years, so BLP does not apply and kashmīrī's talk page warning about defamation was not especially well chosen for that reason. MPS1992 (talk) 18:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked Aditya Mishra H1N1 (talk · contribs) for three days for disruptive and POV editing, BLP violations and personal attacks. ECPed Burhan Wani for a year under WP:GS/IPAK. Abecedare (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Possible misuse of rollback by User:Agaba Perez
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As raised on this talk page, Agaba Perez appears to have used rollback on an IP to revert non-vandalism without discussion, and did it earlier, which is getting close to edit warring. Perez also rolled back another non-vandal IP edit, so this potential misuse of rollback is concerning, especially since they were given the flag less than 3 days ago by Edgar181. I'm questioning whether this user is worthy of having rollback at all, making these mistakes. SemiHypercube 01:48, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I support removing their rollback rights, the user should know what and what is not eligible for rollback. --Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 01:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support revocation of rollback. I've reverted several dubious uses of the privilege, and seen more, and that's after a pretty cursory look at the edit history. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- SemiHypercube, I am not seeing a reason as why the user was upgraded to rollback, nor any archives of approved rollback requests in the permission archives, strange. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, this was the first use of rollback on April 14 [139]. It made no sense, and was reverted. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- This was the second use [140]. I think we have to go through all of them. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:10, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think the admin hit the wrong button and given the user rollback by accident. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- another misuse user clearly does not know what rollback is. Please remove the rollback right from the user Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- And this [141]. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- As well as several others I reverted, including this [142]. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- And even more.... here in which I just reverted their rollback. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- here too Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, Thegooduser, what the problem was with them restoring the photo. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Removal of the photo would be unexplained content removal, which twinkle's rollback or an undo should be used and not rollback, but feel free to revert my edit if you think I am wrong. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Per this section Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Anyways, I've reverted back to a previous revision. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Understood. Sometimes the reversions are correct, sometimes not, but they're using the rollback indiscriminately, and often when there's been no obvious vandalism. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Anyways, I've reverted back to a previous revision. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Per this section Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Removal of the photo would be unexplained content removal, which twinkle's rollback or an undo should be used and not rollback, but feel free to revert my edit if you think I am wrong. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, Thegooduser, what the problem was with them restoring the photo. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- here too Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- And even more.... here in which I just reverted their rollback. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- another misuse user clearly does not know what rollback is. Please remove the rollback right from the user Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think the admin hit the wrong button and given the user rollback by accident. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I was this close to yanking the privilege, esp. after the odd comment on the IP's talk page, but I want to know what User:Edgar181 thinks. Drmies (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, I might be a little repeating myself here, but Edgar181 gave no reason in the summary as to why they upgraded the user to rollback, Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- That may be so, but Edgar has been here longer than me and I'm not going to undo their action without at least knowing that they know about it. As for PERM--is there some requirement that rollback needs to be asked for in some specific way? If so, I'm not aware of it. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, I might be a little repeating myself here, but Edgar181 gave no reason in the summary as to why they upgraded the user to rollback, Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 02:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support the removal of rollback from this user , but I agree with Thegooduser and that there was no WP:PERM request for rollback . Kpgjhpjm 03:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Special:Diff/892447147. There doesn't need to be a request on a particular page. Maybe there should be a reason in the log, but it's rarely difficult to figure out. I have to say it's the kind of request I would review with an extra overdose of oversight. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Zzuuzz, Oh okay, thanks for that link, but shouldn't Egdar181 put a reason in the userrights log? Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 03:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Often a log reason would say something like "per request", which honestly wouldn't add any value. Is it best practice to link to the specific request and response? Maybe. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you look in my log, I requested to have my rollback removed and given back right after to solve a technical issue and Xaosflux Put in the link where I requested it. Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 03:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Zzuuzz, Oh okay, thanks for that link, but shouldn't Egdar181 put a reason in the userrights log? Thegooduser Life Begins With a Smile :) 🍁 03:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Special:Diff/892447147. There doesn't need to be a request on a particular page. Maybe there should be a reason in the log, but it's rarely difficult to figure out. I have to say it's the kind of request I would review with an extra overdose of oversight. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have removed rollback rights from this user per the consensus above. Assuming good faith sometimes has it's negative consequences, and this clearly a such a case. My apologies for the lack of edit summary in granting the right. -- Ed (Edgar181) 10:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Also, I think the user did request rollback, but it was on Edgar181's talk page and not at WP:PERM. SemiHypercube 10:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Loose cannon
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RollingStonesFANZ (talk · contribs · count)
An admin might want to put the brakes on this new user, CSD'ing mass articles. - FlightTime (open channel) 05:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm trying to clean up irrelevant articles...we don't need articles on random Beatles songs that never even charted. RollingStonesFANZ (talk) 05:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- We ? You've been here 47 minutes. - FlightTime (open channel) 05:16, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
I have now nominated Let It Be for deletion. I will stop trying to delete albums if you stop trying to get them to delete my account. RollingStonesFANZ (talk) 05:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nominations like this one appear to be be in bad faith. This user may be WP:NOTHERE. Aoi (青い) (talk) 05:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Aoi. The subjects of these articles are clearly notable. JACKINTHEBOX • TALK 05:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Someguy1221: Thanx. - FlightTime (open channel) 05:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indeffed by Someguy1221--Ymblanter (talk) 05:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Someguy1221: Thanx. - FlightTime (open channel) 05:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Stones fans just can't seem to get over their feelings of inferiority. EEng 06:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- LOL - FlightTime (open channel) 06:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am so dedicated to the WP:NPOV that I an a fan of both the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
I can just about AGF Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Good Morning Good Morning if one reads the letter of WP:NSONG, but Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abbey Road is taking the piss. I wonder if this is retaliation for me filing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim and Mary McCartney (2nd nomination) the other week? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:42, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Bing.aguilar.752
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Bing.aguilar.752 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Check the contribs, example. Clearly WP:NOTHERE. I wouldn't normally bother reporting such a low-edit case but they have hit on the idea of adding thoughts to User:Bing.aguilar.752/common.js where they are difficult to remove. Should an interface admin be asked to clear that? Or a regular admin might delete the page? Johnuniq (talk) 11:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Special:nuke of blocked sock.
Hello! I stumbled across a blocked sock that has a few too many page creations to tag manually. Could a willing admin nuke the creations?
- Tyt0791 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Thanks, Kb03 (talk) 13:48, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Why should I delete (for example) Emelia Brobbey? The article doesn't appear to qualify for A7 or G11. Although I can only find coverage in tabloid newspapers from a quick search, it's certainly worth looking into. In the case of Buokrom, longstanding consensus has said we generally don't delete places that are not blatant hoaxes. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Done Eligible as G5 deletions. Creations by a blocked sockpuppet.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- You did not answer my question. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- No need since they were eligible per G5 as Kb03 had rightfully requested. You recreated a page made by a prolific sockmaster.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)- Ritchie333: I was in class, sorry for the somewhat delayed response. I requested deletion of those articles as they were creations of a blocked sock, and as such, were eligible for G5. Kb03 (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on who created the article; I just thought Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red could do something with this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Ritchie333: I was in class, sorry for the somewhat delayed response. I requested deletion of those articles as they were creations of a blocked sock, and as such, were eligible for G5. Kb03 (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- No need since they were eligible per G5 as Kb03 had rightfully requested. You recreated a page made by a prolific sockmaster.
- You did not answer my question. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Abuse and personal attacks
Could somebody have a word with Tony1? Messages such as "Go to hell and burn", subsequently repeated with the explanatory supplement "Not the nominator: the whole lot of you", and to "piss off ow, you miserable little swine" are no just rather uncollegiate but wholly unnecessary and unprovoked. I attempted to discuss it—sans templates—but was reverted as vandalism. ——SerialNumber54129 14:09, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- A whole bunch of recent edits that are nothing but direct attacks on specific users? Civility police or not, that's beyond the pale. Blocked for one week. Yunshui 雲水 14:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- sigh* I was in the middle of composing a message clarifying what the issue was and suggested he calmed down, but edit conflicted with Yunshui. Am I out of touch with the rest of the admin corps - I thought we were supposed to err on the side of not deleting or blocking. :-( Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Ritchie333: The history is here; I've no idea why you'd ping me to their talk page. ——SerialNumber54129 14:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yep, that's going to cool the editor down... and make them think that admins are not out to get him. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I knew any action here was going to be controversial, but those attacks were indeed beyond the pale, and a gross overreaction to nothing offensive whatsoever. I think the block is justified. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- He's been here long enough to know that these sorts of attacks are not acceptable, and has already had the issue explained to him by Serial Number 54129. Further exhortations towards calmness and civility seemed bootless. But hey, let's start a huge ANI thread about how admins should be nice and not block people who hurl blatant abuse at other users, that won't be a massive waste of time at all. You don't like the block? Lift it, then; I leave it to you to explain to those attacked by this editor why obvious personal attacks are totally acceptable nowadays. Yunshui 雲水 14:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- We need to face the elephant in the room here, around which folks have been dancing for ages. Tony1 has a horrible attitude to people he thinks have wronged him, and a record of reacting abusively to the most minor of incidents - and it frequently extends to innocent people who have not said a word out of place. Telling people to "burn in hell" for daring to suggest he might have some FA input? That's utterly unacceptable, and other editors should not have to tiptoe around such an obnoxious attitude. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- (ec x many) I looked at Wikipedia:Civility#Dealing with incivility, which suggests blocking for "In "emergency" situations, where the other editor needs to be stopped in their tracks to avoid causing serious disruption or needs a fast and strong wake-up call". Was this such a situation? Meanwhile, the policy on cool down blocks says "Blocks intended solely to "cool down" an angry user should not be used, as they often have the opposite effect.". Please note, I'm not attempting to defend what Tony said or justify his actions whatsoever - the comment on SN54129's talk page is a flat out violation of WP:NPA - it's more that I felt we should deal with it tactfully and only block when we are satisfied that Tony is not going to calm down and will continue going bezerk. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- And how many more incidents of personal attacks would we need for that? That was a good and warranted block, and at least imho, not a cool down block. Lectonar (talk) 14:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- This isn't a tantrum, it's abuse. I have zero tolerance for the latter, and nobody should be asked to put up with it. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, it doesn't violate the "no cool down blocks" thing. It's a rational and measured response to an editor with a chronically obnoxious attitude to other people, and if he won't rein in his personal attacks then blocks are pretty much all we have left as a preventative measure. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Concurring with other admins that this is a fully justified block. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- "We need to face the elephant in the room here, around which folks have been dancing for ages. Tony1 has a horrible attitude to people he thinks have wronged him, and a record of reacting abusively to the most minor of incidents" I've spent half an hour reading through the WT:FAC thread linked above. If what Boing! has said above is true, he needs to be community banned, not blocked. Again, I have to emphasise when I said "Am I out of touch with the rest of the admin corps", I was simply saying that the situation was progressing quicker than I could get a handle on it, rather that any action is unjustifiable. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Some further (albeit slightly dated) context discussed at length here with links to other incidents (and Ritchie333, I know you're already aware of the back-story here given that the original thread was in response to you so I'm not sure where the "Am I out of touch with the rest of the admin corps" is coming from). This has been going on a long time—as I said there, the the Request for topic ban for Tony1 from all FA-related pages and Gross incivility, threats of off-wiki harassment, and personal attacks by Tony1 threads from 2011 are probably as good a place as any to start if you want to research how we ended up here. ‑ Iridescent 15:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- It means this. I saw an issue. I looked into the circumstances. I decided to work on de-escalation. By the time I'd done all that, everyone else had already decided to block. Am I just slow on the uptake? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nah, I just think maybe you're not as familiar as some others with Tony1's chronic interpersonal issues? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- It means this. I saw an issue. I looked into the circumstances. I decided to work on de-escalation. By the time I'd done all that, everyone else had already decided to block. Am I just slow on the uptake? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Maybe. De-escalation is preferable in most circumstances, but it can be counterproductive; when someone has a repeated history of doing something wrong and all that ever comes of it is some variant on "please don't do that again", the signal that gets sent is "you can do whatever you like because you're too important to lose", and so the problem just carries on. When we're having exactly the same conversation, about exactly the same people, that we had six months ago, seven years ago, eight years ago, eleven years ago and twelve years ago, there comes a point when one has to think "discussion isn't going to fix this". ‑ Iridescent 16:42, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, so let's talk about a site ban. I've been through about three months' of Tony's contributions, trying to find out exactly how much of a net positive / negative he actually is, and once I've done that I will start a sub-thread about it below, unless somebody else gets there first. I don't want to set up a site ban proposal until I'm sure it's good a good chance of passing, as I don't particularly fancy being the new Number 1 person on Tony's shit list (which I inevitably would be if I did that). Bottom line is, if the problem has been going on for years and years, how is a week off going to stop them? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to see if the shock of the block has an effect before we start talking about site bans. Per my comment above, I strongly suspect a lot of Tony1's problematic conduct is because he's become so used to nobody standing up to his bullying and harassment that he genuinely feels it's acceptable; a clear and unambiguous "if you want to stay here you need to follow our rules from now on" will hopefully be enough. Don't get me wrong, I do think we'll ultimately end up at the site ban stage—as I said to you once before, Tony1 is one of the most arrogant and aggressive people I've ever encountered on Wikipedia—but he deserves the chance to try. ‑ Iridescent 16:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, so let's talk about a site ban. I've been through about three months' of Tony's contributions, trying to find out exactly how much of a net positive / negative he actually is, and once I've done that I will start a sub-thread about it below, unless somebody else gets there first. I don't want to set up a site ban proposal until I'm sure it's good a good chance of passing, as I don't particularly fancy being the new Number 1 person on Tony's shit list (which I inevitably would be if I did that). Bottom line is, if the problem has been going on for years and years, how is a week off going to stop them? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Maybe. De-escalation is preferable in most circumstances, but it can be counterproductive; when someone has a repeated history of doing something wrong and all that ever comes of it is some variant on "please don't do that again", the signal that gets sent is "you can do whatever you like because you're too important to lose", and so the problem just carries on. When we're having exactly the same conversation, about exactly the same people, that we had six months ago, seven years ago, eight years ago, eleven years ago and twelve years ago, there comes a point when one has to think "discussion isn't going to fix this". ‑ Iridescent 16:42, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I too spent the past half hour reading the WT:FAC thread. It was clearly a painful experience for Tony1, and irrespective of the content of the comments I don't begrudge Tony's decision to abandon that end of the project. However, it's been six months since its closure. An uninvolved editor to that discussion pinged Tony with requests for comment when renominating an article, and they get attacks hurled at them for doing so. My stances changes only for the worse. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:58, 17 April 2019 (UTC)