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:::::I just wanted him to stop. I just muted him in my preferences, which solves the immediate problem. If he pings me again I won't see it and someone else can deal with it if they feel like it. Thanks, Cryptic! I had forgotten that I can do that. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 16:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
:::::I just wanted him to stop. I just muted him in my preferences, which solves the immediate problem. If he pings me again I won't see it and someone else can deal with it if they feel like it. Thanks, Cryptic! I had forgotten that I can do that. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 16:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::: Actually, part of his one-way iBan includes an order not to ping me. When you tell someone to stop pinging, and they keep doing it, that's harassment. -- [[User:BullRangifer|BullRangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) <u><small>'''''PingMe'''''</small></u> 16:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
:::::: Actually, part of his one-way iBan includes an order not to ping me. When you tell someone to stop pinging, and they keep doing it, that's harassment. -- [[User:BullRangifer|BullRangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) <u><small>'''''PingMe'''''</small></u> 16:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::Hey, I thought you were going to disengage and get as far away as possible, BR. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 17:26, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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This certainly is harassment; what’s more it is a habit of Factchecker’s. Earlier, after being banned from [[User:BullRangifer]]'s talk page (a ban which took several requests from BR and finally from an admin before he would respect it), he then switched to criticizing BR at other sites, pinging him every time, so that an admin finally had to impose an IBAN to stop him. This new one is a particularly egregious example since the ping came immediately after, and in response to, Guy saying “don’t ping me”. Factchecker is currently blocked for a week.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User%3AFactchecker+atyourservice] This harassing ping to Guy, from Factchecker’s talk page, came while the block was in place. IMO there is a strong case here for extending the block. --[[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
This certainly is harassment; what’s more it is a habit of Factchecker’s. Earlier, after being banned from [[User:BullRangifer]]'s talk page (a ban which took several requests from BR and finally from an admin before he would respect it), he then switched to criticizing BR at other sites, pinging him every time, so that an admin finally had to impose an IBAN to stop him. This new one is a particularly egregious example since the ping came immediately after, and in response to, Guy saying “don’t ping me”. Factchecker is currently blocked for a week.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User%3AFactchecker+atyourservice] This harassing ping to Guy, from Factchecker’s talk page, came while the block was in place. IMO there is a strong case here for extending the block. --[[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:26, 26 May 2018
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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User:DePiep and DYK
- DePiep (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I hate to come here, but DePiep's actions leave me with little option. DePiep has, over the past weeks, made a series of edits and/or suggestions on the technical side of DYK: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and several others.
These changes are made in good faith. However, when reverted or otherwise questioned about them, DePiep has responded with startling amounts of off-topic bellicosity, and very little genuine explanation. Thus, we've had there have been edit-wars on multiple pages here, and here. We've also had There have also been a number of discussions with a poor heat to light ratio: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].
In all of these situations, DePiep has repeatedly:
- Refused to explain what he is trying to do, instead using vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement"
- Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith,
- Refused to acknowledge that when his changes are queried, he needs to obtain consensus for them, and not the person who reverted him.
Ideally, I would simply like somebody to convince DePiep to cut out the bad faith, follow BRD, and tell us what he is trying to achieve. Failing that, it may be an unfortunate necessity that he be removed from the maintenance areas of DYK. Pinging @EEng, David Eppstein, Zanhe, and The Rambling Man: Vanamonde (talk) 11:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Replies to this post are below in #Reply by DePiep. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- I was called a "dickhead" and "dickname"(diff) and had my username equated to "IPA:Auschwitz"(diff, diff) on Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 58#enwiki has lost the WP:Palestine community by DePiep last month after I removed a duplicated WP Palestine (leaving it on top) - I'm still clueless as to why this was so offensive - removing a duplicate wikiproject seems to be a trivial non-contentious correction.Icewhiz (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Now I get it! Icewhiz = Auschwitz! Such perception! Such insight! EEng 22:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Indeed. Icewhiz has a thick skin, that sort of remark to some editors would end up here immediately. Icewhiz is active with WP:ISRAEL, and some will conclude that IW is Jewish (it's not on his user page though). It's hard to AGF a remark like the above, as opposed to a highly offensive, targeted attack against a [perceived] Jewish editor. I can't think of any way to vindicate the above comment, in fact. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 01:27, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- What really puzzles me here is what prompted this. I've made edits that I can understand why some other editors see as contentious. But removing a duplicate WP Palestine (it was there - twice)? Ignore the particular invectives - why the anger over this particular action of mine? At the time I chalked this up to perhaps editing not under the best circumstances that day or something similar - and did not pursue this - but it is perhaps relevant if there is a continued pattern.Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Indeed. Icewhiz has a thick skin, that sort of remark to some editors would end up here immediately. Icewhiz is active with WP:ISRAEL, and some will conclude that IW is Jewish (it's not on his user page though). It's hard to AGF a remark like the above, as opposed to a highly offensive, targeted attack against a [perceived] Jewish editor. I can't think of any way to vindicate the above comment, in fact. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 01:27, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Now I get it! Icewhiz = Auschwitz! Such perception! Such insight! EEng 22:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- I chanced upon a sudden slew of discussions on the DYK talkpage, all raised by DePiep. Most were causing heated debates, with the majority of the heat relating to the fact that DePiep seemed technically unable to sufficiently describe what he was trying to achieve in most instances. I certainly had trouble understanding a number of his comments. Even from today we have "For the rest: that going into the BF area, I think you should base that. - DePiep (talk) 10:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)" for example. No idea. So when eventually DePiep accused me of a (mild) PA, and then claimed he was leaving the discussion with a "See you elsewhere, TRM. -DePiep (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)", I stated that I hoped not. He then petulantly left me a message on my talk page with his very next edit. Generally it the whole series of posts has felt like an enormous waste of time from a disruptive editor who doesn't really appear to have the competence to make these kinds of edits or suggestions. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man:
A slew of discussions, all raised by DePiep
-- Did I start too many talks? Isn’t that contradicting the OP notion? Or do I misread your post?A (mild) PA
-- When I wrote “some other place” that refers to the WP:advice not to escalate a PA in the same thread. There is nothing more to it. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man:
- The user in question has an unfortunate history with the block log. --Izno (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep also has significant history here at ANI. E.g., just last June he took a voluntary one-year topic ban (on anything related to earthquakes) in lieu of a six-month block.
- Across a broad swath of topics he has shown a characteristic pattern: he jumps into something he thinks needs doing (often with wide-ranging effect), but sometimes not quite in tune with what others think should be done. And when challenged he generally does not respond well. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- @J. Johnson: I think this is an incorrect description of that ANI. There was nothing “in lieu of” a voluntary ban. Instead, I can see this as an example of me deescalating & solving. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Across a broad swath of topics he has shown a characteristic pattern: he jumps into something he thinks needs doing (often with wide-ranging effect), but sometimes not quite in tune with what others think should be done. And when challenged he generally does not respond well. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- In precisely what way is "he took a voluntary one-year topic ban ... in lieu of a six-month block" incorrect? Do you dispute that there was not a topic ban? Or that you did not voluntarily accept it? Or that it was not for one year? Or do you deny that there was any possibility of an involuntary block?
- The closing admin (Dennis Brown) stated: "The evidence presented herein demonstrate there is a serious problem with DePiep's behavior." And: "Technically, I could block for 6 months here and no one would bat an eye." And concluded: "if you start causing serious problems with this topic, a (long) block will probably result." What you "deescalated" was your liklihood of getting blocked, which I believe was understood by all present to be in the offing. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @J. Johnson:. You are misrepresenting that ANI. (again; I pointed this out before). Already in my very first reply there I proposed a voluntary topic ban [11]. Only one full week later the closing admin mentioned what you call a “choice” [12]. I also note there are notes regarding your behaviour. Please stop rewriting this history. Your own wishes, perceptions and interpretations are not the same as facts and closing statements. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- What I quoted (and highlighted) is from the closing statement. What is questionable here is your interpretation – here – that a "voluntary topic ban" is not a topic ban. In fact, when the closer said (and this also is from the closing statement): "DePiep, I am going to accept your voluntary topic ban (italics added), he characterized your sanction exactly as I have stated: a voluntary TOPIC BAN. The misrepresentation here is entirely yours. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @J. Johnson:. You are misrepresenting that ANI. (again; I pointed this out before). Already in my very first reply there I proposed a voluntary topic ban [11]. Only one full week later the closing admin mentioned what you call a “choice” [12]. I also note there are notes regarding your behaviour. Please stop rewriting this history. Your own wishes, perceptions and interpretations are not the same as facts and closing statements. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I previously interacted with this user over a major revision of the {{OEIS}} template series. I think his changes were, ultimately, constructive, but they involved a similar "my way or the highway" attitude from DePiep, a distressing level of unconcern for making sure that the hundreds or thousands of existing uses of the template rendered correctly before making such changes, and a hostile response to any form of constructive criticism. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein: I think you refer to this (first section) discussion. I don’t think that discussion illustrates what this thread is about. In short, you protested that the /sandbox /testcases were broken (not the mainspace template), which I called irrelevant; also, I solved that afterwards and created a follow up thread for future improvements. i.e., constructive editing & discussing. If anything, this actually illustrates my start-a-talk approach we all consider good editing. Note the “I want” sentence. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep is very active at WP:WikiProject Pharmacology, where he tends to focus on stuff like templates more than on content. I also have seen, repeatedly, the obnoxious interaction style and the inflexibility, but he also does contribute in useful ways. I don't have any knowledge about the DYK problems, but I think that the situation does not go quite so far as WP:NOTHERE. It's somewhere between that and OK, not entirely one or the other. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- A skim through Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pharmacology/Archive 13 gives a pretty good view of what I'm referring to: mostly useful, occasionally unpleasant (the latter in one part of the "USAN etc in drugbox" thread). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: about the example you mention: there I started follow up sections #Restart and #Proposal (which went live eventually; also note I pinged editors). I can see this as an example of desired talkpage behaviour. I reject the suggestion of WP:NOTHERE, maybe you meant to say something else? - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. For the time being, I am going to comment only in regard to your response to me here. When I made my original comment, I was primarily pointing out that you make positive contributions to WikiProject Pharmacology. I agree with you that #Proposal, which was the outcome of the discussion, was a good outcome. As for #Restart, I'm pretty sure that another editor, Jytdog, started that part of the discussion, not you. What I saw as a problem was your interactions with Doc James, where you said: [13], [14], [15], [16]. It started out as a simple misunderstanding between the two of you, but you unilaterally escalated it to (from last two edit summaries), "thanks for stating that you (Doc James) cannot be trusted" and "three dicks and you're out?". I then tried to intervene, and your response to me: [17], was completely one of deflecting your own responsibility to the other editor. That was bad, and the reason I did not pursue it was that the discussion got back on the right track after the other editors started the "restart". You appeared not to understand it then, and you appear not to understand it now. About my reference to "NOTHERE", I said it "does not" go that far, but you seem to be missing my use of the word "not". Maybe that indicates some language or communications difficulty, but much of what I am seeing indicates a behavioral problem that goes significantly beyond just language comprehension. I'm disappointed, therefore, in your response to me. As I said, I'm commenting for now just on this, but having also read all of your responses, I think I'm seeing a lot of deflection there too. If other editors confirm that hunch, my earlier willingness to cut you some slack will vanish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish:. You are right, that interaction with Doc James is abject. I wanted to note that I (we) pulled that topic out of the mud into a well-discussed live result. Wrt NOTHERE: indeed you said it did “not go quite so far as ... ”, but introducing the reference point has a meaning and an effect. I object even the mentioning of it, because NOTHERE clearly claims having a dishonest interest in the project. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Therefore, I want to make it clear that I do not consider you to be "NOTHERE". Full stop. The reason I first used the term was because other editors were seriously considering a site-ban, and I wanted to communicate that it would be too severe. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish:. You are right, that interaction with Doc James is abject. I wanted to note that I (we) pulled that topic out of the mud into a well-discussed live result. Wrt NOTHERE: indeed you said it did “not go quite so far as ... ”, but introducing the reference point has a meaning and an effect. I object even the mentioning of it, because NOTHERE clearly claims having a dishonest interest in the project. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. For the time being, I am going to comment only in regard to your response to me here. When I made my original comment, I was primarily pointing out that you make positive contributions to WikiProject Pharmacology. I agree with you that #Proposal, which was the outcome of the discussion, was a good outcome. As for #Restart, I'm pretty sure that another editor, Jytdog, started that part of the discussion, not you. What I saw as a problem was your interactions with Doc James, where you said: [13], [14], [15], [16]. It started out as a simple misunderstanding between the two of you, but you unilaterally escalated it to (from last two edit summaries), "thanks for stating that you (Doc James) cannot be trusted" and "three dicks and you're out?". I then tried to intervene, and your response to me: [17], was completely one of deflecting your own responsibility to the other editor. That was bad, and the reason I did not pursue it was that the discussion got back on the right track after the other editors started the "restart". You appeared not to understand it then, and you appear not to understand it now. About my reference to "NOTHERE", I said it "does not" go that far, but you seem to be missing my use of the word "not". Maybe that indicates some language or communications difficulty, but much of what I am seeing indicates a behavioral problem that goes significantly beyond just language comprehension. I'm disappointed, therefore, in your response to me. As I said, I'm commenting for now just on this, but having also read all of your responses, I think I'm seeing a lot of deflection there too. If other editors confirm that hunch, my earlier willingness to cut you some slack will vanish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: about the example you mention: there I started follow up sections #Restart and #Proposal (which went live eventually; also note I pinged editors). I can see this as an example of desired talkpage behaviour. I reject the suggestion of WP:NOTHERE, maybe you meant to say something else? - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- As a DYK regular, I have never come across this user before nor had any interaction with him yet it appears to me that he has come into DYK out of the blue and made a number of edits to the technical workings of the project. Personally I don't see the logical reasoning behind his actions. The fact that there is consensus that he appears to be unaware that his tinkering is being disruptive suggests that maybe he should be advised to back off doing that. I never like to see topic bans but maybe this could be on the table. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- More concerning is that he doesn't appear to understand basic concepts. Looking at this history and this one (on which he broke 3RR), plus the current discussion at WT:DYK, he doesn't seem to grasp the BRD cycle or the facat that consensus should be gained for contentious edits. That's actually a WP:CIR issue, when one is repeatedly told by multiple editors not to do something, and you carry on doing it anyway. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment Skimmed through here. User has not edited in some hours. Concerned that a very constructive editor in some areas has become overwrought. I think with DYK, they'd bit off too much, and they should leave it alone a while. DePiep, very interested in seeing your response.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks Dlohcierekim for this careful post. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- perhaps we are having a life issue?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think this is out of the ordinary for this editor at all. The limited interactions I've had with De Piep have also led to me tumbling down a rabbit hole of odd accusations and some of the most obstinate WP:IDHT behaviour I've ever seen here.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- How odd -- since this thread began DePiep has fallen silent. I've never seen that happen before. EEng 12:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Seems unnecessary for me to pile on the chorus of accusations. I've already said enough about DePiep at WT:DYK#DYKbox improvements and other threads. I just want to add that it baffles me why a seemingly experienced and productive user like DePiep would behave as if he'd never heard of WP:BRD and consistently ignore the advice and arguments presented by numerous other users. -Zanhe (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I'd have given a hefty block for the Auschwitz slur on its own. There's significant evidence here that this is a user who has talent and much to contribute but simply does not have personality type to be able to work collaboratively, making him totally unsuitable for contributing to Wikipedia. He communicates poorly, dislikes explaining himself, becomes incredibly irate over very small things and uses appalling slurs, including racial. I'm fairly well known for preferring lenient course of action with users, but I'll be proposing a community site ban for this user, unless they have some very persuasive things to say. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- This user has a long history of awful behavior and refusal to make any kind of sense when their actions are questioned. Looks like the bn discussion below isn’t going through, but that doesn’t mean a block can’t be issued, and if they return without addressing these issues, a block can and will be issued. They’ve already been blocked ten times and have just ridden them all out and gone right back to their old ways. This must stop. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would also support a block should DePiep return to editing without addressing the issues. It's clear from his long-term record that something fundamental needs to change in his interaction with other editors. If we do not see evidence of any willingness for that to happen, a forced preventative measure would be appropriate. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@Davey2010 and Beyond My Ken: the topic ban is for areas outside of mainspace and user space, so the editor is not topic banned from the entire project except this thread, and can return to editing without engaging in further discussion. This would, of course, limit the potential for future problematic behaviour. isaacl (talk) 15:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Blocked
I have issued an indefinite block. It seems obvious that their sudden suspension of activity was in response to these concerns, and their pattern of being blocked and just taking it without filing a formal unblock request suggests that anything less than an indefinite block will not achieve acceptable results. As I noted when blocking, they may be unblocked at any time so long as they agree to the re-opening of this discussion and pledge to actively particpate in it. They have dodged criticism by hiding for far too long. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- I support the block - I'm still appalled by that "Auschwitz" slur. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed; normally I'd have a little bit of a problem with an admin coming over the top and instituting a different sanction than that which was just agreed to by the community. But given that the conduct here was so egregious that any admin could arguably have indeffed them at any point without likely objection from the community, and given the "out" which Beeblebrox has supplied DePiep with, with regard to returning here to discuss the community's concerns, I can't say as I have much issue with this in the present case. Besides, after Swarm closed their proposal below, I began to second-guess the wisdom of allowing a user to have access to mainspace while otherwise effectively banned, considering how that situation could be gamed. Snow let's rap 03:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep has just requested an unblock to address this discussion, so I have undone the close as suggested by the closer. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Unblocked. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Redux
Ok, it looks like this would be an appropriate time to restart this discussion since they are back and able to edit again. I believe this are the points that need to be addressed, but feel free to add on if I’ve missed anything:
- A pattern of becoming extremely defensive and/or refusing to clearly explain themselves when their edits are questioned
- Edit warring
- Responding to good-faith attempts at discussion with personal attacks
- specifcally the “Auschwitz” comments, which several users and admins have commented are reason enough for a block in and of themselves
- The fact that this is a highly experienced user who, despite 10 previous blocks, still doesn’t seem to have managed to learn to behave within minimum expected standards.
Again, feel free to add if I’ve missed anything important. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think you've summed it up pretty well. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would add, in light of his response to my comment of 00:24 9 May, that DePiep seems to be in denial of the circumstances where he accepted his voluntary topic ban, showing that he is still WP:NOTGETTINGIT. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- In case it wasn't obvious, I have pulled DePiep's TE right given the current topic ban, and some other reasons I recall from his past.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 02:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I too think Beeblebrox sums it up pretty well. I think the edit-warring and gross incivility are easily dealt with; if they recognize the problem, they're on a tight leash (a 1RR restriction may be appropriate), and can be blocked indef if they repeat that behavior; if they don't recognize the problem, we site-ban them here and now until they do. The first problem Beeblobrox describes is trickier to define, and trickier to address. I would there reiterate my proposal to remove them from maintenance areas, defined as any namespace outside articles, article talk pages, user pages, and user talk pages, with an exception for appealing and/or discussing sanctions about themselves. I proposed this below as a temporary remedy, but I believe it's the appropriate long-term step, too. This proposal is, of course, conditional on DePiep recognizing and promising to rectify the other problems with their behavior; otherwise, it is moot, and I would support a ban. Vanamonde (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Preparing replies, basically to the top thread. - DePiep (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Been working continuously on this since (on/offline), but can't get it finished today. Need a rest. - DePiep (talk) 15:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep, you may not believe this but I really would like to help you get back to assisting with the project. For that to happen, though, your response here needs to reflect an attempt to understand why everyone (everyone) is upset with you, not an extended defense explaining how you were right all along. EEng 22:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- I do believe you. I am wrestling with my replies offline for days now. It is tough confrontations, and I must be honest & full out I know. Best of all is the time allowed (fast & short answers won't solve). I hope to post tomorrow, a batch of replies. I too want to join the project. -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just a thought... It can be quite traumatic facing up to your own problems, and as DePiep is keeping away from editing until this is resolved, I see no rush. I'd much rather we (DePiep and others) take the time to achieve an amicable solution that gets DePiep back to productive editing, than rush and get a poorer outcome. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- I do believe you. I am wrestling with my replies offline for days now. It is tough confrontations, and I must be honest & full out I know. Best of all is the time allowed (fast & short answers won't solve). I hope to post tomorrow, a batch of replies. I too want to join the project. -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep, you may not believe this but I really would like to help you get back to assisting with the project. For that to happen, though, your response here needs to reflect an attempt to understand why everyone (everyone) is upset with you, not an extended defense explaining how you were right all along. EEng 22:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Been working continuously on this since (on/offline), but can't get it finished today. Need a rest. - DePiep (talk) 15:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment After blocking DePiep in 2015, I received this email comment from an editor, who shall remain anonymous:
In case you wonder how I got involved, I have been working on the immensely complex Module:[redacted] for nearly three years, and DePiep has been active on Template_talk:[redacted] with helpful advice for those asking questions, and by managing the documentation. I have also seen DePiep's useful work in other areas. I fully acknowledge DePiep's problems and I think your block for an extremely pointless edit war on a template was reasonable. DePiep does not speak English fluently and sometimes misunderstands colloquialisms, and finds it hard to follow long and complex sentences (like the ones I write!). DePiep's style is sometimes unhelpful.
—Bagumba (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Reply by DePiep
- First of all, I want to make my excuses for the edit regarding Icewhiz. That should not have happened in any case. Even worse I did not even self-correct at the time.
- Also, my 3RR breach with [18] in Template:DYKbox was unacceptable, especially since it was about visible content. (For those interested, here is a better development route I started afterwards).
- Also this visible content change should have been done via the talkpage.
- Re me being absent [19]: that was genuine in RL, it was not triggered by this ANI as some admins assumed. In the end the temporary blocks turned out as I too intended: first solve this thread (so the issue is moot). Meanwhile, these days helped me in finding a more relaxed and careful approach to the issues.
- In the top section, below the OP, I have replied to some individual complaints, that IMO are more isolated.
- For completeness, I note the discussions I started: this, [20], this, this; and I contributed to this.
- About my behaviour wrt BOLD, BRD, and talks. This is more subtle, so please bear with me. I write in reply to the three complaints that were made in the OP (now anchored):
Re #OP-1 vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement"
: As with many other similar template improvements I applied a technical-only edit: [21], [22]. My experience with other templates and WikiProjects is, that these are *not* considered controversial. To me, the wording in an the es like “cleanup” or “move templatedata/category to documentation” is clear enough. Elsewhere I did link to this WP-document for explanation. Sometimes the edit should be self-clarifying I thought: e.g., removing texts like “Interwikis go to the documentation page” is heavily outdated.
I add that in other WikiProjects, I have applied competence including doing bold edits, and building consensus in more difficult template issues (see talks & archives of elem, chem, drug, track). This is not to claim authority, but to point out that the DYK community is different in this. Please understand that this is my background experience, and so I am quite surprised to discover & learn that in WP:DYK the sense is more like “hey, don’t even edit bold here”. Before the DYK talks started, I already had made some 100–150 technical edits to templates & documentation without problems or breaking one, which added to the surprise effect.
I think this difference explains most of my contributions to the talkpages. This is why I kept asking for: “what is broken?”. This also explains why I missed the underlying DYK-community requests to explain more, and to simply not edit at all.
Re #OP-2 Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith
. Maybe you refer to this edit, which indeed is needlessly unfriendly. In that talkpage section I first did answer what I was doing [23]. Then I got this bolded cursing, my reply asking to stay civil, canvassing/meatpuppeting, I asked to stop, ridiculing my English, then this. (BTW I am surprised that no editor here acted upon or even noted the abusive language in this last diff).
All this had happened in that section when Vanamonde93 made a fresh & clear restart with a bullet: [24]. To that I did reply with content [25], and without [26]. Rereading the section I think I did show some willingness to reply, but re Vanamonde93 I missed the deeper question obviously, and that latest diff was not clarifying, and not friendly I admit. Please note that the Vanamonde93 post appeared after the unhelpful language in the first half (diffs given above). At that point, my mood was not open for the constructive approach Vanamonde93 started.
It could be that Vanamonde93’s text “allegations of bad faith” actually meant to say “as personal attacks” (as Vanamonde93 did in their #Redux text). To this, my reply would be: in multiple occasions my knowledge of English was questioned [27], and even ridiculed [28]. I have never met this complaint before. While this appears to have a base in WP:CIR, it certainly appeared to me as a PA (amid other unhelpful posts aimed at me), hence my replies. I don't think I started out making BF/PA accusations.
Re #OP-3 Refused to acknowledge that … he needs to obtain consensus for them
: Correct in general, though above I have noted that sensitivity for (objection to) BOLD/BRD editing in DYK is higher than elsewhere, even with technical edits.
Over all, I think I showed that, apart from problematic edits, also I started multiple threads myself, abided their result, and did reply with meaningfull answers (note the “also”). This is to push back against the atmosphere created that I did not engage in discussions at all. I now know & also admit many other answers were not civil/helpful/acceptable (or not to the point, not clarifying enough). In this situation, BRD should have lead me to stop making bold edits full stop. Then, a talkpage result would lead the way (could be no consensus, that is: nothing to be done).
I see that my initial attitude was that my edits were obvious, correct and self-explaining cleanups; this blinded me for the deeper concerns that were posted (like this opening by EEng, and this one by Vanamonde93). This is not to wipe complaints out, I just want to illustrate that the trespassings were not posted as a first reply or opening post.
How to prevent any future such problems? Clearly, I should take care not get carried away by fanatic editing, introducing blindness for talks and leading to frustrated uncivil replies. More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation. The bonus is that it will lead to a more healthy situation this side of my screen.
WRT WP:DYK, with its complicated processes, bot-support, difficult talks to reach improvements, and this whole experience: I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited.
- - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @DePiep: - First of all, I accept your apology. Could you kindly answer what I did to trigger this? Or was this just a random "thing"? What truly puzzles me was not the particular wording - but the cause for the initial offense (which I assume is something I did?).Icewhiz (talk) 16:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep Firstly, I want to thank you for that self-reflection - it can't be an easy thing to do. I don't want to get into too much detail, so I won't reply to specifics above, but I'll just offer a few general observations.
On the issue of being WP:BOLD and following WP:BRD, what I think I'm mostly seeing in recent interactions is a lack of understanding and poor communication. You didn't really understand why others were rejecting your template changes. But, more importantly, they didn't understand what you were trying to achieve and why. I see some attempts at discussion, but they were rather curt and I have to say I couldn't understand the details. What it needed (and I say this rarely) was more words and less action. It needed a more expansive and detailed explanation of what you were doing, and discussion until everyone understood everything. And stop making any changes until it is clear that everyone understands and there is a consensus. If you continue with further efforts to remake the same changes with modifications for what you think is the problem (but without the necessary understanding and consensus), it only causes frustration. Don't approach it from a feeling of "They need to explain what I did wrong", but more from "How can I help them understand what I'm trying to do?"
It's not really that BOLD is not allowed, it's that the D part of BRD is by far the most important of those three letters. In areas like frequently used templates and pages with high dependencies, it is even more important that everyone involved should fully understand the implications of any changes, and when those changes are contested you should completely stop and seek consensus. In fact, in areas where there are regular editors with more specific knowledge and experience, it can indeed be wiser to seek consensus first and not be BOLD at all, as you suggest.
Looking back over some previous interactions that others have raised, I also see times when you appear to have taken reversions or questions of what you are doing too personally and have responded poorly, similarly to what has happened here. That does seem to be a long-term issue, though again I think it's probably due to misunderstandings and/or poor communication. But when any edits you make are challenged, you really do need to engage in discussion and fully explain what you are doing - and it needs to be an explanation that's sufficient for the other editors to understand, not just one that satisfies you. And always, stop, assume good faith, and look at the whole picture again before you respond - it seems it was a failure to do this that led to the IceWhizz thing.
Anyway, this has turned out to be a lot longer than I'd anticipated, but I hope you will find it of some use. And if you're listening to what people are saying and are taking it in and trying to do something about it (which you appear to be doing), then I don't think there's any need for any sanctions. But please do reflect on this discussion whenever you feel thwarted or frustrated in the future. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks. Yes, this nicely (and more eloquently) describes my situation. - DePiep (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear more from other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy to see DePiep apologizing for the worst of the personal attacks, and a site-ban is no longer an option I would consider. But I'm less satisfied with DePiep's replies about BRD. Especially with respect to DYK, he seems to believe that there's some sort of resistance to change anything there, and that his following BRD would have led to no changes at all. This is simply not true. DePiep made certain changes to certain templates and was reverted. His responses (when he went to a talk page at all), as far as I could make out, tended to be "I didn't break anything" or "Why not?" He didn't realize that it was incumbent upon him to answer the question "why?" first. There were similar problems with his talk page proposals; basically, they didn't always explain the problem they were trying to solve, and when folks expressed confusion and/or opposition, DePiep took things personally.
I'm not sure where to proceed from here: on the one hand I'm worried my proposal above is now too harsh; on the other hand, I'm worried that if we do nothing, we'll be back to where we began very soon. I'd like to hear more suggestions about how to move forward. Vanamonde (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93:. I’ll try to be more precise: I don’t want to state that “ there's some sort of resistance to change anything there” in the WikiProject DYK community. What I meant is that change discussions in the DYK backoffice are more extensive (diverse opinions) and more complicated (more issues are involved, e.g., bots) compared to other WikiProjects/templates I have worked with extensively. As a consequence, in these other WikiProjects I rarely run into a BRD cycle (I have made bold, minor edits to a 10k template, explain on the talkpage, and no R is made). This is what I call the “surprise” I met in WP:DYK.
- My future behaviour then should be: be more sensitive for such requests (like BRD). If I were allowed to edit again, I expect to achieve this for example by not being bold in more unfamiliar projects. Essential to this is, me not dig in myself (instead take distance, start talk first, don’t get triggered by perceived opposition). Also I foresee that this editing process might lead to fewer of my proposals being accepted, which should not be a cause for frustration. -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with all of the above. DePuep is here in GF and seems to have plenty to offer, but we need to find some way to help him put the brakes on when need be. EEng 16:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- On rereading some of the above I feel it must be said that something that's missing, and which I think is essential for DePiep's future here, is a recognition by him that his English really does have moderate deficiencies, so that he needs to exercise extra caution in interpreting PGs and what others say to him. EEng 21:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- "
More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation.
" This is good self-advice from DePiep. I think they tend to get heated and then not assume good faith. The onus is on them to control this. The reality is that they will have little leeway in the future, and they could conceivably improve yet still be villified for one transgression. It's their responsibility to repair their reputation. I don't know if there is any suitable sanction at this point. They should also get their template editing rights restored.—Bagumba (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2018 (UTC) - I think that Vanamonde's assessment of the situation is spot-on. I would like to find a solution that makes it possible for DePiep to stay around, including the ability to continue to work with templates, but I also see a troubling lack of self-awareness with regard to discussion with other editors, resulting in personal attacks, and I am convinced that it would be a mistake to assume that it will not happen again. So I would like to suggest an approach based on WP:ROPE. I don't see a good way to legislate a definable criterion for adequately understanding comments directed at him by other editors. But I think that we might be able to draw something of a bright line with respect to personal attacks (although I acknowledge that the community has not been able to agree on the boundaries of civility). I think that we might be able to draw up an editing restriction that specifies that any future personal attack made by DePiep during discussions of edits that he has made will result either in an escalating series of blocks, or in a site-ban. If we can flesh out that idea, perhaps we can make a formal proposal to that effect. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- And in the case if there are no restrictions, the close here should be clear that there is little to no tolerance for future incivility, allowing for swift action in the future, if needed, without spending too much time rehashing their history and re-collecting diffs.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, but I also think that this discussion should not be closed until some restrictions have been settled upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Bagumba:, @Tryptofish:. [written before I read the lastest proposal, I'll post this anyway:] I understand the setups you describe here. I myself am wondering too about any type of useful restriction etc I could even ask for. Today I only can make promises. Of course, whatever the result now, we know that this ANI by itself is an ultimate warning. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with both Bagumba and Tryptofish. For all the concern of how DePiep might be salvaged for the greater glory of the project, he has been an IMMENSE sink of time. Unless someone is inclined to engage in a close, long-term mentoring effort with him he should be put on notice that any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block. Which means that, in any dispute, if his arguments and explanations of why he is right are not accepted he must not persist, and any escalation to ANI is prima facie grounds for a block. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @J. Johnson:.
any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block
-- are you serious? So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). Editors can step on the admin's chair just like that? -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)- Yes, I am serious. See comment at bottom of this section. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @J. Johnson:.
- I agree, but I also think that this discussion should not be closed until some restrictions have been settled upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- And in the case if there are no restrictions, the close here should be clear that there is little to no tolerance for future incivility, allowing for swift action in the future, if needed, without spending too much time rehashing their history and re-collecting diffs.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think this is a good place to reference what I said above about DePiep's English, which I think is a key part of the problem. EEng 22:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, it's not a language problem, it's an attitudinal problem. There is a pertinent comment today way at the bottom of all this. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep wrote,
I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited.
I think this is a good idea, and I would like this to be a formal part of the resolution here; the "invitation" should be a consensus of the DYK community on its talk page, not just a random editor. This has been an immense time sink, as noted above, and there was damage done, as edits to several templates that are designed to be transcluded caused unexpected characters to appear where they shouldn't. It's clear that DePiep wasn't sufficiently aware of the many DYK processes to safely edit DYK templates, and I've reverted their template edits there, though I've left the edits to the template documentation pages alone since they're unlikely to have done any harm. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC) - A "civility restriction" is also an option. Per WP:RESTRICTION:
The user may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith.
Perhaps a 1-yr editing restriction?—Bagumba (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)- OK then, I think that a near-consensus is starting to emerge. How about a proposal formulated like this:
- A topic ban from DYK, that can be subject to review in the event that other editors at DYK would like to have it lifted.
- A 1-year editing restriction, in which DePiep is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith.
- How does that sound? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think restoration of TE privs should be contingent on a year's success with the above. It's a right that assumes particularly restrained judgment. EEng 20:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly, that means specifically the Template Editor advanced permissions, but not simply the ability to do edits related to templates. If that's the case, that's fine with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think DePiep should re-apply at PERM if they want TE rights again. Tryptofish's summary of consensus in my opinion is fair (topic ban from DYK/one year civility restriction). Personally I would prefer "indefinite" but "appealable in six months" for the civility restriction so that we don't come back to square one again after one year (somewhat reflecting on the sentiment expressed by Vanamonde and Beeblebrox). I would probably also add a reminder along the lines of "...to stop and discuss before making potentially contentious maintenance edits" or any other statement that summarise what Boing! and others have mentioned here. Alex Shih (talk) 21:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with all of that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, looking over it, I think perhaps that both the DYK topic ban and the civility restriction should be "indefinite but appealable in not less than six months". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think DePiep should re-apply at PERM if they want TE rights again. Tryptofish's summary of consensus in my opinion is fair (topic ban from DYK/one year civility restriction). Personally I would prefer "indefinite" but "appealable in six months" for the civility restriction so that we don't come back to square one again after one year (somewhat reflecting on the sentiment expressed by Vanamonde and Beeblebrox). I would probably also add a reminder along the lines of "...to stop and discuss before making potentially contentious maintenance edits" or any other statement that summarise what Boing! and others have mentioned here. Alex Shih (talk) 21:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly, that means specifically the Template Editor advanced permissions, but not simply the ability to do edits related to templates. If that's the case, that's fine with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think restoration of TE privs should be contingent on a year's success with the above. It's a right that assumes particularly restrained judgment. EEng 20:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- How about: any complaint made here, that an admin judges to be well-founded, for incivility, personal attacks, edit-warring, or tendentious editing, is grounds for an immediate one-month block, and this sanction to continue until the user has edited for twelve consecutive months without any complaint. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Honestly that sounds a touch confusing, and I'd prefer the relatively straightforward modification suggested by Alex above; both restrictions indefinite, and appealable in six months. Vanamonde (talk) 04:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Vanamonde. There will be less likelihood of something going wrong if we stay closer to the typical format for sanctions, and for the application of administrator judgment. I think we are getting to the point where I will make a formal proposal soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with all the agreeing with the agreement. Can someone recapitulate exactly what's being proposed now? And then (it seems to me for some reason in this particular case) I think it would be useful to hear from DePiep himself that he understands what the proposal, if approved by the community, would be asking him to do, and that he thinks he can abide by it. EEng 02:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- As I just noted above re J. Johnson, this is a weird prococedural route for multiple reasons. (I copy): So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I am serious. The persistent problem you present is, in large part, continous disputation, and recurring failure to WP:HEAR. (E.g., in part of this multi-part comment of yours you continue to dispute whether your last "voluntary topic ban" was, in effect, a topic ban. You revise history, and then accuse me of misrepresentation.) Do note that, strictly speaking, this is not an autoblock. While any editor could report you here, it would be up to an admin to decide whether there is grounds to block. The point is that we don't have to drag everyone through yet another round of DePiep showing how the rest of us are all wrong.
- As I just noted above re J. Johnson, this is a weird prococedural route for multiple reasons. (I copy): So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with all the agreeing with the agreement. Can someone recapitulate exactly what's being proposed now? And then (it seems to me for some reason in this particular case) I think it would be useful to hear from DePiep himself that he understands what the proposal, if approved by the community, would be asking him to do, and that he thinks he can abide by it. EEng 02:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- The key point for you is that if you can resolve disputes you have on various Talk pages, very well. But: if you can't (or won't), and persist in it enough to annoy other editors, you will be sanctioned. And no, you don't get to dispute about disputes. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Oh, wait, someone already did that, a few subthreads down. Let's regroup there. EEng 03:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Moot stuff
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Proposal: Temporary topic banThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. DePiep has stated that he will be unable to comment here for a while. It is unfair to the community to expect them to hang around here till then. It is undesirable for this discussion to simply remain unfinished, thus allowing DePiep to resume his behavior if and when he chooses to return. Therefore, I propose that DePiep be banned from proposing or making edits
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Proposal: Site banThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Given DePiep's extremely high level of activity, I find his sudden and complete inability to participate here disingenuous, and I do not think we should hold off because of it. Given the extensive history of persistent egregious behavioral problems, which have not been resolved in spite of previous lengthy blocks, as well as the support for it already expressed above, I propose the following remedy: DePiep is indefinitely banned from editing Wikipedia. Appealable after the usual six months. Swarm ♠ 21:36, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Proposal: Editing restrictions
Following the discussion at #Reply by DePiep, above, it looks like there may be an emerging consensus to handle the situation in the following way, so I am presenting a formal proposal:
- DePiep is indefinitely topic-banned from all edits related to WP:DYK, broadly construed. This topic ban may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
- DePiep is placed indefinitely under an editing restriction, in which he is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. This restriction may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
- DePiep may regain permissions as a template editor only by way of a successful application at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions.
- DePiep is reminded to engage in good faith discussion, and to communicate clearly, with other editors about any contentious edits he might make or consider making, and to consider other editors' concerns with respect.
--Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support, per my comments above; this strikes the right balance between allowing DePiep the freedom to contribute constructively, and minimizing the drain on the community's resources. Vanamonde (talk) 03:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support Beeblebrox (talk) 03:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support. As DePiep has been a perennial problem across a range of topics we should be looking to develop a generic form for future use. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- As per EEng, below, I think we'd be fine allowing DePiep to work on DYK nominations, reviews, etc - just not the techie stuff. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. I understand this (well-written) proposal, and I think it addresses the issues well. I thank those putting a careful effort in this. (Minor question: am I to stay away from DYK-proposals?). - DePiep (talk) 13:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- @DePiep: Yes. May I ask why is this unclear? Alex Shih (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, I think that would be a mistake. The root of DePiep's problems at DYK was that he was trying to get under the hood when he'd never driven a car (so to speak). I see no problem with him making nominations, and reviewing, and discussing (discussing content issues, that is) at Talk:DYK; but he must stay away from the technical machinery for the duration proposed. BlueMoonset can probably express the distinction crisply for us, in terms of namespaces or classes of pages or something. EEng 13:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support as written. If DePiep is fine with a topic ban from DYK, I see no need to carve out a path for nominating DYKs, something I don't believe they've ever done in all the years they've been editing. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is what I was thinking. In the previous edit, DePiep was asking about "DYK proposals" (they have since clarified), which I naturally thought was referring to the DYK proposals they made in WT:DYK when they were unaware of anything about the DYK process. With that being resolved, I still agree with BlueMoonset; I don't really see the necessity to write an exception for something that they appears to have never done in the past. If DePiep is interested in submitting DYK nominations anytime soon, I suppose it is fine to add the exception suggested by Vanamonde. Alex Shih (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Based on DePiep's comment just above, I think it's best to leave it as is. The less complicated, the better. Also, there is nothing wrong with asking for a partial relaxation of the restriction, for the purpose of nominations, in six months. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is what I was thinking. In the previous edit, DePiep was asking about "DYK proposals" (they have since clarified), which I naturally thought was referring to the DYK proposals they made in WT:DYK when they were unaware of anything about the DYK process. With that being resolved, I still agree with BlueMoonset; I don't really see the necessity to write an exception for something that they appears to have never done in the past. If DePiep is interested in submitting DYK nominations anytime soon, I suppose it is fine to add the exception suggested by Vanamonde. Alex Shih (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe it's just me, but I still think we should sonehow address DePiep's English comprehension difficulties -- maybe something about asking for assistance in understanding others' posts and edit summaries where necessary. EEng 16:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I sort-of tried to cover that in item number 4. Beyond that, it gets difficult to incorporate advice into something like this, where we are trying to write something that is precise enough to be enforceable. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think I'd just like to hear from DeP that he recognizes this is part of the problem. EEng 17:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have similar concerns, though I'm not sure its the language competency itself that is the problem, per se. In the past, I've made numerous ventures on to other Wikipedias for languages for which I have functional but incomplete command of the grammar. Usually this is for the purpose of tracking down sources, finding content to transwiki, or just educating myself on a topic for which the English Wikipedia has more limited coverage. Once in a blue moon, I have made some trivial edits (maybe even some bold ones), but whenever reverted, I never insisted on my preferred approach, nor got antagonistic with the local editors, because I recognized the potential for mis-comunication and that each Wikipedia has its own editorial policies and community consensus (which are also subject to being misconstrued, no matter how much effort one makes to familiarize themselves, if facility in the language is incomplete).
- I think I'd just like to hear from DeP that he recognizes this is part of the problem. EEng 17:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think that editors from non-English communities should be discouraged from participating (they can often bring knowledge which is less well known in the anglophone sphere), but anybody participating in a Wikipedia project (or in any collaborative scheme, for that matter) for a language which they are not fluent in should be using a liberal application of the precautionary principle. Instead DePiep often seems to come in guns blazing when challenged. So the issue is not so much one of underlying incomplete facility with English, but more one of arrogance and lack of self restraint and perspective in general. They don't seem to pause to consider whether they may have misunderstood the consensus on the matter and whether they are effectively communicating. Needless to say, those are potentially huge problems on a project such as this. That said, those are also the underlying principles to which DePiep has mostly owned up to above, so I would hope that their commitment to slow their approach in general will address these problems. Snow let's rap 20:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes: it's not a language problem, it's this persistent "guns blazing" disputation (and some arrogance) that's the problem. But I doubt how much he has "owned up" to being a problem, as it keeps happening, again and again. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree that behavior, not language comprehension, seems to be the biggest factor here. As to owning up to it, these sanctions should be an effective test of how committed they really are. If they can’t stay within them, blocks will be forthcoming. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- My point is that I think it's the comprehension gap that often triggers the latent behavioral tendencies, but I give up. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I suspect you are right about a comprehension gap triggering some of the behavior, but it's at a deeper level than mere language. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re EEng: I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this. I have participated in huge discussions, sometimes taking over 400 days, and building a positive result that affected dozens of FAs/GAs (recently [30] and longer ago; also here and here). It would be more relevant tot look at my domain knowledge, as in: understanding the topic and the workings of a WikiProject, including editors’ approaches & attitudes. This gives a much better explanation on why I derailed in the WP:DYK. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- So you are expressly stating that your problematical behavior is not due to any difficulties of language. Noted.
- Re EEng: I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this. I have participated in huge discussions, sometimes taking over 400 days, and building a positive result that affected dozens of FAs/GAs (recently [30] and longer ago; also here and here). It would be more relevant tot look at my domain knowledge, as in: understanding the topic and the workings of a WikiProject, including editors’ approaches & attitudes. This gives a much better explanation on why I derailed in the WP:DYK. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I suspect you are right about a comprehension gap triggering some of the behavior, but it's at a deeper level than mere language. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- My point is that I think it's the comprehension gap that often triggers the latent behavioral tendencies, but I give up. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree that behavior, not language comprehension, seems to be the biggest factor here. As to owning up to it, these sanctions should be an effective test of how committed they really are. If they can’t stay within them, blocks will be forthcoming. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes: it's not a language problem, it's this persistent "guns blazing" disputation (and some arrogance) that's the problem. But I doubt how much he has "owned up" to being a problem, as it keeps happening, again and again. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think that editors from non-English communities should be discouraged from participating (they can often bring knowledge which is less well known in the anglophone sphere), but anybody participating in a Wikipedia project (or in any collaborative scheme, for that matter) for a language which they are not fluent in should be using a liberal application of the precautionary principle. Instead DePiep often seems to come in guns blazing when challenged. So the issue is not so much one of underlying incomplete facility with English, but more one of arrogance and lack of self restraint and perspective in general. They don't seem to pause to consider whether they may have misunderstood the consensus on the matter and whether they are effectively communicating. Needless to say, those are potentially huge problems on a project such as this. That said, those are also the underlying principles to which DePiep has mostly owned up to above, so I would hope that their commitment to slow their approach in general will address these problems. Snow let's rap 20:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- But please explain: why is it that in claiming an instance of a "positive result" you provide a diff to an edit by another editor? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support: I would have tightened the wording on the civility provision myself; admins are already empowered to impose blocks and other sanctions for incivility, personal attacks, and refusal to AGF, so clearly what we are talking about is implementing a lower threshold for when DePiep is subject to sanction with regard to bad-faith conduct of this sort, and I'm not sure the wording makes that particularly clear (and using the default standard in this manner debases our baseline community expectations, I fear).
- That little caveat aside though, I think these sanctions create sufficient restraint to address the issues raised here to an extent that will allow us to permit DePiep to continue contributing long enough to test their commitment to taking the community's concerns on board. Some of the comments that spurned this thread were truly antagonistic, but it makes a big difference that DePiep is trying and has made efforts at apology. I note also that the party most directly insulted by those comments has themselves chosen not to assume that these comments are representative of DePiep in the whole and has not urged for sanctions; of course the community can still reach their own conclusions about those comments, but that situation does make a difference to my personal analysis. All said, I think we can afford to give DePiep this chance. Snow let's rap 20:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose on the grounds that an editor who has been problematic for this long is best dealt with by the more deliberative process of ArbCom. (I am probably in the minority here, but this is my opinion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know if ArbCom would be better at this point, but the restrictions proposed here do not preclude that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, Cut some slack for a long-standing editor. Was DePiep wrong? Yes. Did he admit to it? Yes. If Wikipedia were only open to perfect editors, we would have no one here. This is an editor with 13 years tenure, 120k+ edits, and many-many productive contributions. His lack block prior to this incident - was almost two years ago - in August 2016. If we keep on treating block logs as a "criminal record" - all we're encouraging is people starting over with clean (or not so clean) starts. DePiep should have communicated better at DYK and elsewhere - and he should have realized the problem earlier - but slapping him with a very punitive punishment (and to a certain extent - this is true regarding the proposal in the section below as well) - is not the way to encourage contribution. Had this been coming to here after a previous recent block/ANI/warning - the DePiep should have acknowledged and acted upon - then it would be a separate matter. Having had a clean record for past 2 years and approx. 40k edits - DePiep should be cut quite a bit of slack. People aren't always at their best - and self-recognition and attempts to correct are much more important tbans/blocks/etc.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- That all sounds very reasonable and I can see how you may have come to such a conclusion. I would, however, offer an incident from January of this year as a more recent example. DePiep decided to “claim” a module at {{Module:Z}}. Not create a template, but rather claim it as their own for future creation. As I imagine you are aware, that is complete nonsense. As I recall there was also a talk thread somewhere where they announced their “claiming” of it. I came very close to blocking them then, but at the last second they backed off and let it go. I let it go as well for basically the reasons you have outlined here. It is now clear to me that this is a pattern from this user, and the sanctions are intended to interrupt that pattern. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- For reference, see [31] for the discussion (and the third reopening of the closed discussion thread). isaacl (talk) 08:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- So Beeblebrox told me that this is not the right way to go and deleted the page: WP:SPEEDY. But how or why does this belong in an ANI post? - DePiep (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox illustrates the tricky part in the proposal: he wanted to block me for … creating a page. So in the future the rules proposed here might be invoked by any admin that confuses a discussion with wrong language. That could only be cleaned up in an unblock request, but that is not a good place to discuss of course plus there is the admin habit to not wheelbarrow easily. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Blatantly off topic, but I've been wanting to unburden myself: the single-letter template names are a rare and precious resource not to be squandered. The idea of wasting Z on something about chemical elements is appalling, and whoever appropriated {{M}} for earthquakes should be boiled in oil. EEng 13:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I hope not!! I would point out that {{M}}'s previous incarnation was for producing a single character (as several templates still do), which would be more to your point. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but it's a matter of principle. Please report to the nearest boiling station for processing. The heat sources are very reliable now and there's usually comparatively little suffering.The single-character templates should be reserved, ideally, for uses in which reducing clutter in the source text is especially important; a great example is {{r}}. Anyway, we'll miss you, JJ. EEng 04:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- EEng: Language? While we are at it, could you reflect on how these edits [32] [33] were helpful or useful? - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Your two links are the same diff, and its use lay in its potential to drive home to you that you have real difficulties in English comprehension and expression. If you're going to now start denying that you have such difficulties, as you seem to be doing (in [34] you said
I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this
) then I'm going to have to rethink my support for the very generous WP:ROPE you've been offered, and I suspect others will as well. What do you mean byLanguage?
in your post just above? What in the world do you mean bythere is the admin habit to not wheelbarrow easily
in the diff I've just linked? EEng 15:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Your two links are the same diff, and its use lay in its potential to drive home to you that you have real difficulties in English comprehension and expression. If you're going to now start denying that you have such difficulties, as you seem to be doing (in [34] you said
- EEng: Language? While we are at it, could you reflect on how these edits [32] [33] were helpful or useful? - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but it's a matter of principle. Please report to the nearest boiling station for processing. The heat sources are very reliable now and there's usually comparatively little suffering.The single-character templates should be reserved, ideally, for uses in which reducing clutter in the source text is especially important; a great example is {{r}}. Anyway, we'll miss you, JJ. EEng 04:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I hope not!! I would point out that {{M}}'s previous incarnation was for producing a single character (as several templates still do), which would be more to your point. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Beeblebrox, and add this incident from last year. —DoRD (talk) 12:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can’t believe that all they took away from that incident is “Beeblebrox wanted to block me for creating a page” when it was in fact about “claiming ownership” of a page and making a ridiculous spectacle out of making sure everyin knew of their”claim” even through that’s not a real thing. That they can’t see that does not give me much hope for their future. And the remark about admin wheelbarrows doesn’t help either. I do own a wheelbarrow, a nice two-wheeled heavy-duty one, but I can’t recall ever using it on-wiki. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- For reference, see [31] for the discussion (and the third reopening of the closed discussion thread). isaacl (talk) 08:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- That all sounds very reasonable and I can see how you may have come to such a conclusion. I would, however, offer an incident from January of this year as a more recent example. DePiep decided to “claim” a module at {{Module:Z}}. Not create a template, but rather claim it as their own for future creation. As I imagine you are aware, that is complete nonsense. As I recall there was also a talk thread somewhere where they announced their “claiming” of it. I came very close to blocking them then, but at the last second they backed off and let it go. I let it go as well for basically the reasons you have outlined here. It is now clear to me that this is a pattern from this user, and the sanctions are intended to interrupt that pattern. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support restrictions as proposed - I'm encouraged that DePiep has acknowledged that his behavior has been a problem and hope that he will continue to contribute to the project, but I do think that these restrictions are a reasonable step at this time. —DoRD (talk) 11:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Close This Thread and Request that ArbCom Deal with a Problematic Editor
Not happening
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. In my opinion, editors who have been repeatedly blocked over a long period of time and keep coming back to the drama boards are editors who divide and polarize the community, and the community does not do well in dealing with them. (If the community were united, we would either already have banned this editor or given this editor a warning.) My opinion is that long-time problematic editors are better dealt with by an evidentiary quasi-judicial process. (I am aware that some editors and some Arbitrators disagree.) The community cannot remit a case to ArbCom, but the community can close this case and allow a case to be filed by the ArbCom. (If the ArbCom declines the case, it might come back in four months.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Personal attacks and absurd meatpuppetry
At [35] BernardZ wrote What are you doing just following me?? Anyway thanks for your edit. That Tgeorgescu is just a turd, prejudice and narrow-minded.
At [36] Macquaire repeated information which was already in the article. I have reverted it at [37]. Then BernardZ has reverted my revert at [38], which is absurd, because such information got repeated twice in the same article.
At [39] BernardZ wrote about sockpuppetry by Macquaire I know him actually, what he is doing is following me.
Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Two different people who know each other, they both make the same mistake. Odd, don't you think? And as shown at [40] and [41], they both sign their usernames below their messages, instead of at the end of their messages. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- The only thing that is odd is your over-reaction to having your revert reverted by another user. The sequence of events was as follows:
- 06:27, 18 May 2018 BernardZ made an edit with the edit summary: This is something we did agree too.
- 07:33, 18 May 2018 your first revert - edit summary: the number is quite small, avoid puffery
- 10:27, 19 May 2018 Macquaire reverted
- 10:35, 19 May 2018 your second revert.
- 10:51, 19 May 2018 BernardZ reverted back with the following edit summary: This was agreed. If you want it out you need to prove that they are not notable and they are notable
- 11:36, 19 May 2018 your third revert.
- 11:38, 19 May 2018 you started a discussion on the article talk page.
- 10:37-12:17 19 May 2018 you posted notices on the other two editor's talk pages accusing them of sockpuppetry and made a posting on WP:ANI.
- Maybe you need a wikibreak?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I got called "turd, prejudice and narrow-minded" (before making the sockpuppetry accusations). Besides, I was not the first editor who accused the two of sockpuppetry, see [42] by Roscelese. And the edit warring was unusual (absurd): it wasn't edit warring about adding something to the article, it was edit warring about repeating twice the same information in the same article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you can make a case for sockpuppetry, the place to do it is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations. The question there is technical - is sockpuppetry going on? and can it be proved?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think that it can be proved, I will settle for meatpuppetry. I was irritated by repeating the same stuff ad nauseam. Once is enough, why should it be mentioned twice in the same article? Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If it cannot be proved, then you need to accept good faith. I used to see people editing Wikipedia in their lunch break in the office I worked in. That does not mean that they were meat puppets of each other. As for the content issue, explain your feelings on the article talk page. They sound reasonable - the problem is that the article is repetitive, saying much the same thing in two sections - so it is not unreasonable to want the rebuttal in both of these sections. If the editors discussed this on the article talk page, between you, you might end up improving the article. Both sides have a good point on this one.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:05, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think that it can be proved, I will settle for meatpuppetry. I was irritated by repeating the same stuff ad nauseam. Once is enough, why should it be mentioned twice in the same article? Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you can make a case for sockpuppetry, the place to do it is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations. The question there is technical - is sockpuppetry going on? and can it be proved?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I got called "turd, prejudice and narrow-minded" (before making the sockpuppetry accusations). Besides, I was not the first editor who accused the two of sockpuppetry, see [42] by Roscelese. And the edit warring was unusual (absurd): it wasn't edit warring about adding something to the article, it was edit warring about repeating twice the same information in the same article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Macquaire is transparently a sock of BernardZ. I warned him back in 2016 in case that would be enough to stop it, but I haven't kept tabs on him since, and obviously he hasn't stopped. It's a rarely used account that becomes active periodically in order to support BernardZ in disputes; frankly, it seems obvious enough that an admin should be able to do this without process, but if no one else wants to file the SPI, I will. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Macquaire is no socket, he is I admit a mate, who tends to follow me on Wikipedia and facebook too. As far as User:Tgeorgescu is concerned it is about time, he did answer the allegations on the page Exodus instead of being prejudice. Note we did have a discusion, we did agree except for him and now he comes here. BernardZ (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re: "[H]e is I admit a mate": see WP:Meatpuppetry. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Willing to bet the adult beverage of your choice that it's WP:SOCK and not WP:MEAT. I looked at some of their contributions and User:Macquaire uses a very similar variety of slightly fractured English to User:BernardZ. But it'll all come out in the wash if User:Roscelese files the SPI. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- His English is nothing like mine. BernardZ (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- @BernardZ: I don't think anyone has agreed on the talk page that we should repeat more or less the same words (difference being puffery) a few lines below their first occurrence. If you want to display good faith, I suggest that you write something like "As stated above, there are some scholars who don't agree to the consensus view" followed by <ref name="sourcename"/> way of using the same sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually you are the only one that disagrees with this line and now you are on your third wipe so now you must debate BernardZ (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, boy, a matter of WP:CIR: I have not objected to the line mentioned once, I have objected to the line mentioned twice. Do you have proper reading skills? I have objected to repeating the same stuff. Your line is now still inside the article, albeit without puffery. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:25, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually you are the only one that disagrees with this line and now you are on your third wipe so now you must debate BernardZ (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Willing to bet the adult beverage of your choice that it's WP:SOCK and not WP:MEAT. I looked at some of their contributions and User:Macquaire uses a very similar variety of slightly fractured English to User:BernardZ. But it'll all come out in the wash if User:Roscelese files the SPI. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- SPI filed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- SPI determined they were unrelated. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I think there are basic competence issues here that go beyond concerns about meatpuppetry. A quick glance at BernardZ's most recent edits revealed these [43] [44], where the editor's primary "contribution" was changing the spellings of words from US versions to UK versions on articles with US subjects. This edit [45] looks like vandalism, (which then prompted my check of other recent edits) and this edit [46] changed the wording of a quotation with no apparent regard for the source. Grandpallama (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
NOTHERE at VPR, cont.
Government Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Repeated ridiculous "proposals" at WP:VPR. English-challenged. Repeated missing punctuation at end of sentence. Repeated failure to sign. If this is not a sock of the Saturday-indeffed Milchsnuck I'll eat your hat, but in any case the behavior is identical to that that earned Milchsnuck an indefinite block. Milchsnuck requested adminship 2 months after Government Man asked WP:Teahouse how they could become an admin.[47] ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- SPI is thataway --> but they already know about it, privately. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- should there be a Wipedian High Council: Holy Karmafist, Batman!-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Chancellor!?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, please good very good idea for Wikipedia. Elect for me to be Mr. Wikipedia Chancellor. I am great job for Wikipedia. I will have Emergency Powers for cabal. Elect today to rule admin corpse. Natureium (talk) 01:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- This would require approval from Bishzilla.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Dlohcierekim: Perhaps if you let me be Supreme Chancellor, I could have prevented him from creating pointless articles. Natureium (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
User:Wingwraith - #2
I do not know what has riled them up, but Wingwraith entered into Talk:Venezuelan presidential election, 2018 harassing numerous users. I have seen the discussions regarding Wingwraith's behavior here and here. I do not believe that they have improved their behavior at all and in fact, I think that not facing discipline has only reinforced their poor behavior.
Regarding the article Venezuelan presidential election, 2018, which is fairly contentious, Wingwraith entered calling edits "fucking dumbshit" and harassing users. The user then removed sourced information from the article because it was from TeleSUR (Venezuelan state-run media). I responded to Wingwraith's edits in the talk page telling them to stop with the harrassment and then politely explained that I would find better sources than TeleSUR, knowing it is a potentially biased source.
I proceeded to replace each source individually so I could show Wingwraith that progress was being made and TeleSUR sources were being removed (see: [1], [2], [3]). I thought that the dispute was done. However, Wingwraith reappeared laughing off the call to end harrassment, saying "There is no harassment, just because you happened to like the garbage that the OP posted with doesn't make what I did harassment". He then described me as "pro-Maduro" twice in condescending edits,[4][5] later performing dubious edits such as removing sourced material and vandalizing the coding of sources (The Independent → The Indeptelendent, in reference to TeleSUR).
After witnessing this rude behavior that has not been remedied through dialogue in countless cases, I recommend a possible topic ban regarding communist/socialist topics as I see the user has a poor history regarding these types of articles.----ZiaLater (talk) 07:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not a fan of his casting aspirations by claiming editors are pro/anti whatever. Considering that TIAYN was just blocked, and Wingwraith's behavior has not improved, I'm going to suggest a topic ban from political articles and talk pages, broadly construed. Until he can calm down the rhetoric I think this is sadly required. --Tarage (talk) 07:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @ZiaLater: I haven't been harassing you or anybody on that talkpage, you know it and it is disingenuous for you to say that. This kind of edit which that user (has made across multiple articles) is just ridiculous, hence why I used that kind of language to attack not the user but the argument by that user. There is no reason why any editor should make that kind of statement (as an opening statement no less) and there is no reason why any editor who objects to that kind of statement should just take it lying down. My description of you as pro-Maduro was not a slur, it was based on your editing record for that article, where you've predominantly inserted positive material into the article using highly problematic sources, and your reverts upon my informing you of WP:PUS did not go anywhere near removing all of the material that was sourced to telesur but did not include views of the governments of Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Uruguay, and Bolivia. I stopped my reverting of your revert after the intervention by Jamez42 and have been collaborating with that user on the talkpage ever since which makes this report by you all the more ludicrous. Of course I'm also ready to collaborate with you (our problems won't ever get resolved otherwise) but it doesn't seem like you want to do that with this administrative filing. Wingwraith (talk) 08:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @ZiaLater:I had a closer look at your editing history and I take the pro-Maduro description back as it seems like you are a more impartial editor than I thought - I'll admit it at least you're a more impartial than me. That said can you please fix this telesur issue because it really just degrades the quality of the article. Wingwraith (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Casting aspirations is a bad thing to do here Wing. You need to stop. --Tarage (talk) 09:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Fine. Wingwraith (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Boundarylayer and abortion
Boundarylayer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is topic banned from articles related to abortion. I have just issued a one-time warning. Numerous recent edits violate the topic ban: [48], [49], [50], [51] are unambiguously related to abortion. This restriction should be understood as being broadly construed, but in this case even a narrow construction shows this to be in the scope of your topic ban.
Any further edits in this area should result in an immediate block. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Link to pertinent discussion-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wish to now have this ban overturned, as usual, it was orchestrated by a member of this encyclopedia apparently well known to the community for following a particular copy-and-paste, "get other editors banned" strategy, in the exact farcical manner that I experienced. Indeed with respect to Jytdog, who I had initially considered was a neutral party. Instead I by chance stumbled across a revealing comment left by User:Andy Dingley on the Sustainable energy talk page. "| Then feel free to simply go away(Jytdog). It is not all about you. Yet again you are taking another invented content dispute with an editor and turning it into another round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show. You are not Batman. It is not all about you. Before long you will (inevitably so - we've all seen your behaviour before) move this to ANI with a variety of wild accusations, then probably create Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Roberttherambler, because harassment by fatuous SPI is another of your favourites."
- If this ban instigated by jytdog, is not seen for what it is and overturned, I do not see a future with the project. As to remind you, there was never a case of 3R. Or edit warring. We always took it to the talk page, indeed that was the charge in essence, a distaste for - my writing replies on talk pages and then waiting for other editors to get back to me-. That however is not a bannable justification. Moreover some independent editors who looked at my edits both then in the initial ANI and now, also disagree with this unjustified ban. Despite, I might add, not being at home that weekend to have the opportunity to reply on the initial ANI. Which as you can imagine, was less than a "rewarding" surprise on returning home.
- Indeed, with respect to why I got banned. I believe Guy you even thanked me for talking to Mark Z. Jacobson at my usual length, on his talk page, when he was engaging in a lawsuit and a BLP. So even on matters such as these, I do not change when I searched to try to find a WP:NEUTRAL wording acceptable to both a BLP and to readers. However I hope this is not a case of it serving your/the projects interests in that case yet in other cases "BAN"? I've picked up the unfortunately clear impression, that I am thanked for hashing things out on talk pages, but when not serving particular admin politics, I get banned from the topic. It is from this and other observations. That I have developed a deep sentiment of hypocrisy here. Indeed no one ever notified me as to the apparently well known MO of User:Jytdog in how they have, for years, gone around and created an apparent television series of a "variety of wild accusations", that they then "move this to ANI". So why exactly is this prolonged "round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show" continuing?
- Boundarylayer (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- The support for your topic ban was near-unanimous, and those who supported it are hardly just the usual suspects. If you want your ban overturned, the way to do so is to appeal it (probably at WP:AN) on the basis that it is no longer necessary to prevent disruption, not by simply violating it repeatedly. Your having violated it repeatedly essentially reduces your chances of having the ban overturned now to zero, I would guess. GoldenRing (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am sorry you see yourself as a victim and also that you see me as some kind of kind of crazy person. I empathize with you being very passionate on this issue; I have some things I can get very fierce about, too. But you need to be aware that this is part of your character and self-manage it. You failed to do that on the abortion stuff and became disruptive, so the community took action to protect itself -- and you. I hope you gain some self-insight and are able to be resilient and find a way to stay. You do make many good edits in fields where you are not overly passionate. Jytdog (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just wanted to add, that since we are now in the very intense run-up to the Ireland abortion referendum your internal pressure gauge has probably exploded. That must be very difficult. Jytdog (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @JzG: I cannot find where the original topic ban was recorded. Was it logged? --NeilN talk to me 17:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Boundarylayer: Please stop violating the topic ban. If you can edit non disruptively for 6 months, starting now, you might be able to appeal the ban then. One does not violate a topic ban and then seek to have it overturned when one is caught violating said topic ban.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I think it's time to propose an indefinite block of Boundarylayer. The link between their edits on the 36th Amendment referendum and the problematic edits on Death of Savita Halappanavar and related topics are so crystal-clear that they cannot be any good-faith misunderstanding. Boundarylayer's statement here makes it equally clear that they have no intention to abide by their restrictions or to respect other editors in any process. They clearly cannot edit collaboratively or constructively. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- They've been warned, they haven't edited on the topic since the warning. An indef at this point would be premature. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think that an indef block is more than we need. Boundarylayer will kindly stop violating their TBAN before a block becomes needed.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Violated it Repeatedly"? Can you clarify where? Unless you're talking about something else. I made one stream of edits on the "8th amendment" article and I left it at that. Edits that I didn't consider to be really even under the remit of "Broadly construed?" Considering this farcical "ban" was over the articles PPROM and Savita Halappanavar, not anything political on Irish voting or a referendum but on medical evidence. No one got into a discussion once I made these recent amendment edits, I was busy writing, editing and getting the article Terufumi Sasaki through the creation process, in the last few days, if you actually care to look at what I was primarily doing instead of creating more of your quaint little fantasies about "pressure gauges"...Jytdog? In fact my last edit there, I left a talk page comment. Any polls conducted on just female voters? to build the article to reflect actual factual information.
- Indeed in my last month of editing. If you really want to go "broadly construed". I've penned the entirety of the -Atomic bombings#Birth defect investigations a section, as broadly construed as "abortion" should be, is this medical information also a "violating" of my ban and should it be removed too? Moreover, I also added a small study in Chernobyl abortion requests recently. Though I take it, you all like that information. However the way you have all responded, it is clear that it is only when I add any factual information into what the political editor-User:Bastun, what they prefer to class as "broadly construed"? Only when I take it is anything got to do with jeopardizing their George Soros hero? That's the only difference in theme, they pretty well admit as much here this change all of a sudden, to enforce a ban down to doing "edits on the main article on the imminent Irish election". The main article? that's not abortion the actual "main article"? For someone with a topic ban on "abortion" then? The "main article is the election" that is how they view my ban. As a political tool. So only now then I find myself here at an Admin noticeboard over this farcical ban. Why now exactly? I think it pretty obvious what my "ban" genuinely is truly about and specificallly who and what it was always intended for. Which is anything Bastun doesn't like. A pretty cozy affair they have.
- So exactly where do you want "broadly construed" to end? So I can know not to "violate" this farcical ban again? Can I have clarity? Indeed This User:Bastun seems to have a bit of a history of also hounding others editor, as like jytdog, claiming others are socks. It seems all preceived "opponents" are targeted and the truth a casualty. Two editors, 2 independent editors now, don't think this other user is a sock. Yet, look here they're indefinitely blocked, all thanks to user:Bastun. leftwinguy92.
- Since my "ban" began. You will find that I have not edited the PROM article, after adding the 2017 Cochrane medical review(which is still there by the way, this is the farcical part that shows through. My last edit on the very article that would then follow with an onslaught of wild accusations and "ban", my last edit which suddenly I was banned without any opportunity to say a word before it was enshrined in wikilaw. The last edit I made for allegedly being "distruptive", not a single editor has removed nor challenged my last edit on the "direct broadly construed" topic, that I was allegedly distrupting? That is why this ban is a transparent farce.
- Is anyone else being to see how transparent this is? Or is it really just me?
- Boundarylayer (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- It appears to be pretty much you. I haven't seen so much blaming of others in quite a while.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- So you didn't also make a weird post on my talk page recently that completely misrepresented Savita's husband, Praveen? And you didn't make a series of edits regarding funding of Amnesty Ireland (who are campaigning for a Yes vote)? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Also - yes, leftwinguy93 was found to be a sock by a checkuser... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- That user is not a sock. You falsely accused them of being a sock of one account. The checkuser didn't find any evidence of that but presumedly found the same IP of some entirely different user. They're now blocked as per your direction however.
- I never even knew who "Soros" was in Oct 2017, you were accusing me of being American and a whole load of wild things, I even asked in Oct 20, as you can read "who is Soros, and how are they relevant"? I think I know why now. The story broke in Dec 2017 that some fellow named George Soros was actually attempting to influence and pay for campaigns. After that news broke, you've both been censoring , who you actually admited, is your paymasters name, out of the Amnesty International Ireland page. In just the 1st page of edit history, three other editors have added his name and you 2 have consistently removed it. You've both been at the downplay game, the political spin-doctor game. The paid editing game. Your actions, "jokes" and even this ban...I know who you are and what this is about now.
- Boundarylayer (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Editors may also be interested in this Conflict of Interest thread... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Interaction ban
Per the above and [52], I propose a one-way IBAN betwefen Boundarylayer and Bastun: Boundarylayer to be prohibited from interacting with or commenting on Bastun other than in the context of formal dispute resolution processes, including arbitration but not including noticeboatd threads. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. I've blocked Boundarylayer for 48 hours for filing the SPI, which I've also deleted. @JzG: For the sake of procedural niceties, please clarify that you are proposing that a one-way I-ban be imposed against Boundarylayer for interactions with Bastun. I've also changed this to the usual non-numbered style rather than RfA style. Otherwise, it's difficult to leave standalone comments like this one. Hope you don't mind.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support although I think an indef is coming here rather quickly. all aboard the noticeboat! Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Francis Schonken and the WHS infobox
Hi all. Please could someone take a look at the recent edits of Francis Schonken (talk · contribs). He is nominally implementing the outcome of Template_talk:Infobox_World_Heritage_Site/Archive_1#RfC:_revert_back_to_non-Wikidata_version? - however he is doing so in a way that repeatedly pings me to let me know my edits have been undone (more than 20 in the last 2 days, probably >100 over the last few months), and recently his edit summaries are using all sorts of different (and often invalid) reasons rather than just pointing to the RfC outcome. Attempts to discuss this with him aren't going anywhere, so I'd appreciate third-party input into this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- The gall. I have spend many hours reverting the mess Mike Peel left behind after his ill thought out mass implementation of the Wikidata version of the WHS infobox, and Francis Schonken has continued this when I mostly gave up. Mike Peel on the other hand has done nothing to correct his errors and help in the cleanup, all he did was resurrect his Template:Infobox World Heritage Site/Wikidata version. When I corrected the use of the template in articles, I went through the history to find the last version before Mike Peel had changed the infobox, and took the old code. Francis Schonken does this by using a revert, which pings Mike Peel. Tough luck, as it is actually a revert + update that is being done. "He is nominally implementing the outcome" = he is actually implementing it, and undoing your damage. Your "attempts to discuss this" seem to consist of one post to his talk page[53], where he replied that he had replied at the template talk page[54]. Sure enough, Francis Schonken has replied there[55], and you have not answered this or made another comment on their user talk page.
- A single comment on someone's talk page, then ignoring the reply that you get for nearly a month, and then coming here to complain about legitimate actions from another user undoing your mess, is basically asking "please, hand me a boomerang-shaped trout". Fram (talk) 13:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note that Fram told me "I think we can handle this without more help from you", so I walked away from that template talk page, and would continue staying away aside from the repeated pings. There has also been related discussion between myself and Francis at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Suggestion:_WP:CHALLENGE in the last few days. Mike Peel (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- But you still felt the need to repeatedly revert Francis Schonken to reinsert your own RfC-deprecated version of the infobox[56][57][58]. Fram (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note how none of those mentioned the RfC - see my initial comment here. Mike Peel (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- And if they don't mention the RfC, you are free to reinsert your own deprecated template you have walked away from? That same deprecated template where you have, as far as I know, not cleaned up one instance of it being used? Fram (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- You knew exactly why Francis made the change, and you knew the template was deprecated before you re-inserted it. Quit the disingenuity and respect community consensus -- or look to the community to form a new one. Don't edit disruptively. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note how none of those mentioned the RfC - see my initial comment here. Mike Peel (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- But you still felt the need to repeatedly revert Francis Schonken to reinsert your own RfC-deprecated version of the infobox[56][57][58]. Fram (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note that Fram told me "I think we can handle this without more help from you", so I walked away from that template talk page, and would continue staying away aside from the repeated pings. There has also been related discussion between myself and Francis at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Suggestion:_WP:CHALLENGE in the last few days. Mike Peel (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Returning to the original point of the thread, are the notifications really necessary when making the edits? Richard Nevell (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Automatic. FS is reverting an edit and adjusting the content then saving. This will ping the editor who made the edit originally. You could hit edit and change it manually but if its only a minor change its easier and more efficient the way FS is doing it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Such notifications are opt-in, so not necessarily automatic. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm going to grab this opportunity to encourage everyone to go to Preferences > Notifications and uncheck Edit revert. Then you don't get those jarring red flags sending your blood pressure up. It's made my editing life far happier. Of course you still see any changes on your watchlist, but somehow that's a calmer way to experience them. EEng 19:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I second EEng's insight. I unchecked it a while ago and haven't been tempted to revert back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Have my babies EEng. (this should teach me to actually look at preferences more often). Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK, I'm having Arbcom cut off your Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. I have to credit Tryptofish with calling attention to this, and it's a shame there hasn't been more uptake project wide. Seriously, Tfish, what do you think about a Signpost article about it? I really think that every editor who unchecks the revert-notification "feature" represents a step along the path to universal Wiki-peace. Another thing we could try -- and I really think this might be successful -- would be to lobby to make "unchecked" the default for new users. EEng 22:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks (but you don't have to have my babies). Everyone should read WP:RNO, which is what EEng is talking about. I honestly don't care much about the Signpost. I think the default setting has kept changing from on to off and back over time. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK, I'm having Arbcom cut off your Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. I have to credit Tryptofish with calling attention to this, and it's a shame there hasn't been more uptake project wide. Seriously, Tfish, what do you think about a Signpost article about it? I really think that every editor who unchecks the revert-notification "feature" represents a step along the path to universal Wiki-peace. Another thing we could try -- and I really think this might be successful -- would be to lobby to make "unchecked" the default for new users. EEng 22:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm going to grab this opportunity to encourage everyone to go to Preferences > Notifications and uncheck Edit revert. Then you don't get those jarring red flags sending your blood pressure up. It's made my editing life far happier. Of course you still see any changes on your watchlist, but somehow that's a calmer way to experience them. EEng 19:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's good to know, and I've disabled that now. I thought that the notifications could also be avoided by removing the username from the edit summary. The use of random reasons in the edit summary seem to be decreasing, with more along the lines of "per <rfc link>", which is better - @Francis Schonken: please just stick with that edit summary from now on. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Happy to know there's a technical solution for the pinging. The edit summaries are not exclusively written for you, of course. Sometimes they are misunderstood. I try to make them correct, understandable, succinct, etc. That's content (not behaviour), so less suitable to be discussed on this noticeboard. As indicated above, a discussion about precisely this content was open before this was brought here (i.e., WP:RSN#Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE). For clarity, that discussion is still active. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Mike Peel: during my work with the WHS infobox I encountered this edit to the pyramid infobox. Was that discussed before implementing? I mean, there's no obligation to discuss, but was it? --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: Please just keep the summaries for the edits that are implementing the RfC focused on the RfC link. The discussion at WP:CHALLENGE is very controversial (and, from my perspective, very wrong), so shouldn't be used in those cases. The pyramid infobox edit was per Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2, let's see how Wikipedia:Wikidata/2018 Infobox RfC is closed before taking that further. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- The "modification should be done carefully and deliberately" (from Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2) – I didn't see that happening at the pyramid infobox. I'd expect at least a notification at the infoboxes talk page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Further, the Phase 2 RfC does not justify the removal of material from individual Wikipedia articles: "It is appropriate to modify existing infoboxes to permit Wikidata inclusion when there is no existing English Wikipedia data for a specific field in the infobox" (my emphasis) – removing "existing English Wikipedia data" seems like WP:POINT (i.e. disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point) to me — at least WP:BOLD, in which case the bold removal of material can be undone by WP:BRD. Undoing such removals of material, where the removals seem not to be covered by any RfC, need not be justified by referring to an RfC. See also what other editors said above: whether or not the edit summary refers to an RfC, restoring such deleted material should not be undone. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- You seem to be going back over ground that led to Wikipedia:Wikidata/2018_Infobox_RfC - let's see how that's closed. Mike Peel (talk) 12:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: Please just keep the summaries for the edits that are implementing the RfC focused on the RfC link. The discussion at WP:CHALLENGE is very controversial (and, from my perspective, very wrong), so shouldn't be used in those cases. The pyramid infobox edit was per Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2, let's see how Wikipedia:Wikidata/2018 Infobox RfC is closed before taking that further. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Such notifications are opt-in, so not necessarily automatic. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Returning nationalities warrior?
I seem to remember this happening before, an IP changing nationalities or countries of origin without discussion or explanation. In the last couple of days I've seen 92.4.231.137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 79.71.238.3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and 92.3.102.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) doing this and it's ringing bells. DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- And has now admitted editing while blocked Sorry but my old account shingling is temporarily blocked if you want to unblock it I will then make useful edits.. DuncanHill (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- User:TU-nor noticed the same problem and has filed it at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334. Since the IPs are already blocked by User:Alex Shih there may not be anything more to do. EdJohnston (talk) 18:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll try to remember the name for future reference! DuncanHill (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Shingling334 saying they'll make "useful edits" if we unblock them is pretty disingenuous, considering they've done nothing but vandalize for years. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- He's still at it 79.75.244.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) DuncanHill (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Assistance at Mediawiki and perhaps Commons
A troll is harassing me at Wikipedia, Commons, Mediawiki, etc. The original IP, 207.10.104.58, was globally locked by a steward, but now there's a new one, 65.155.17.196 — and there will no doubt always be new ones. I tried to get my mediawiki userpages, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Bishonen etc, protected, but obviously posted to the wrong help page at Mediawiki, and nothing happened. I don't know my way around there. Could somebody who does please try to get my pages semiprotected there? Preferably indefinitely. Also my Commons pages, unless they already are — I can't tell, but the attacks seem to have stopped there. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 18:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC).
- User:Tegel seems to have globally blocked it. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, but that's not the point, Tony. After the first IP had been globally locked, another one turned up very soon. The world is full of open proxies, so I would appreciate having my pages protected. If it can be arranged. Anybody know a mediawiki admin, or is their system totally different? As I said, I tried to find an admin and failed. Bishonen | talk 19:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC).
- I projected your user and user talk page for a month. In the future you can use mw:Project:Current issues or the #mediawiki channel on freenode to get the attention of an admin. Legoktm (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, Legoktm. I'll try to remember. Having userpages at Mediawiki is purely a bother, I've no use for them, and they're nothing but vandal magnets. There is not the slightest risk that an IP or throwaway account would have a legitimate errand there, so would you consider protecting them indefinitely, please? Or a year, at least. Bishonen | talk 19:26, 24 May 2018 (UTC).
- Done, though I could just delete your MediawikiWiki user page and let your Meta one would show instead, I could then salt the MW one, if you like, Bishonen? Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Also semi'ed your Commons user page. Courcelles (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Courcelles: Thanks, that's great. Deleting and salting the mediawiki userpage would be even better, but the meta page that shows through will also need protection, won't it, and the meta talk? (Compare their histories; they've seen some action.) Also, my Commons talk? I wish I hadn't created so many pages; though I guess if I hadn't, there's still nothing to stop the vandals from creating them. Bishonen | talk 02:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- @Courcelles:? Or would anybody else with those permissions like to take care of the missing bits, so I don't have to come back and bug everybody again next week? Bishonen | talk 20:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- I think all done. Mediawikiwiki deleted and salted, Meta user page semi-protected. Courcelles (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- A weight off my mind, Courcelles. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 20:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- I semi-protected your Commons talk page for a month and added it to my watchlist, if harassment resumes I will be able to reprotect it.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, Ymblanter. How many of these goddamn projects are there? My wiktionary page was just created and defaced. Anybody got admin rights there? Please protect user and user talk indefinitely and globally lock the new IP. If somebody with lots of permissions would like to e-mail me, I'll mention a few more problems. Bishonen | talk 07:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC).
- I myself am being harassed in a similar way, on some sister projects, for over a month now by an apparently mentally ill person. I could not find a way to deal with this other than have all these accounts globally locked, one by one. May be you can go to stewards, they are the ones with a lots of permissions, and they might be able to globally range-block.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- The internet is full of open proxies, on all different ranges, so the global locks don't do much good. On second thoughts, don't bother to e-mail me like I requested above; I think I'll just stop caring what my userpages say on other projects. It's little to do with me, after all. Bishonen | talk 08:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC).
- I myself am being harassed in a similar way, on some sister projects, for over a month now by an apparently mentally ill person. I could not find a way to deal with this other than have all these accounts globally locked, one by one. May be you can go to stewards, they are the ones with a lots of permissions, and they might be able to globally range-block.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, Ymblanter. How many of these goddamn projects are there? My wiktionary page was just created and defaced. Anybody got admin rights there? Please protect user and user talk indefinitely and globally lock the new IP. If somebody with lots of permissions would like to e-mail me, I'll mention a few more problems. Bishonen | talk 07:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC).
- I semi-protected your Commons talk page for a month and added it to my watchlist, if harassment resumes I will be able to reprotect it.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- A weight off my mind, Courcelles. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 20:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- I think all done. Mediawikiwiki deleted and salted, Meta user page semi-protected. Courcelles (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Courcelles:? Or would anybody else with those permissions like to take care of the missing bits, so I don't have to come back and bug everybody again next week? Bishonen | talk 20:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- @Courcelles: Thanks, that's great. Deleting and salting the mediawiki userpage would be even better, but the meta page that shows through will also need protection, won't it, and the meta talk? (Compare their histories; they've seen some action.) Also, my Commons talk? I wish I hadn't created so many pages; though I guess if I hadn't, there's still nothing to stop the vandals from creating them. Bishonen | talk 02:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC).
- Also semi'ed your Commons user page. Courcelles (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Done, though I could just delete your MediawikiWiki user page and let your Meta one would show instead, I could then salt the MW one, if you like, Bishonen? Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, Legoktm. I'll try to remember. Having userpages at Mediawiki is purely a bother, I've no use for them, and they're nothing but vandal magnets. There is not the slightest risk that an IP or throwaway account would have a legitimate errand there, so would you consider protecting them indefinitely, please? Or a year, at least. Bishonen | talk 19:26, 24 May 2018 (UTC).
- I projected your user and user talk page for a month. In the future you can use mw:Project:Current issues or the #mediawiki channel on freenode to get the attention of an admin. Legoktm (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, but that's not the point, Tony. After the first IP had been globally locked, another one turned up very soon. The world is full of open proxies, so I would appreciate having my pages protected. If it can be arranged. Anybody know a mediawiki admin, or is their system totally different? As I said, I tried to find an admin and failed. Bishonen | talk 19:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC).
User:Livioandronico2013 evading indef block on Commons by continuing attacks on Wikipedia
- Livioandronico2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Commons contributions
Livioandronico is indef blocked on Commons (block discussion December 2017). This was due to long running incivility, personal attacks and dishonesty towards other users at the Featured Picture forum. His final edits there include this personal attack "do you have to lie to live".
- In December 2017 he asks another Commons user to nominate photos at FPC on his behalf.
- A few minutes later he posts to my user page "I repeat.....do you have to lie to live? I don't use NR. I hope you are a liar as I think ... otherwise there is something more serious!".
- In March 2018 I removed that post from my talk page.
- On 22 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.
- On 23 May 2018 I reverted it.
- On 24 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.
I have not, as far as I can recall, had any interaction with Livioandronico on Wikipedia. There is no reason for him to use Wikipedia to continue making personal attacks that got him the indef block on Commons. I personally avoid making multiple reverts, so would appreciate if an Admin remove his attack post from User talk:Colin/Archive 11 and protect the archive. Suggest user is also blocked on Wikipedia too. -- Colin°Talk 21:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- The edit was already reverted when i got there. I went ahead and fully protected it. Feel free to revert if that was wrong. I guess the next thing is to admonish Livioandronico2013. Perhaps an apology will obviate the need for formal sanctions.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Leaving a ping for @De728631 since they are the blocking admin on Commons. Suggest a one-week block here of Livioandronico2013 for personal attacks, based on the enwiki diffs above. Agree that IF he apologizes the block would not be necessary. The header of this report says the user is 'evading indef block on Commons' though that's not technically true since this is a different project. Still, if we are expecting different behavior here that would be optimistic. (Check out his comments in the Commons block discussion). EdJohnston (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, I don't know what the technical term for it is, but the personal attacks left on my talk page are nothing to do with Wikipedia, but spill-over from his issues on Commons. They are using Wikipedia to attack me since they can't any longer do so on Commons. Evading their Commons block by attacking a Commons user on Wikipedia instead. Livioandronico doesn't edit very often, and has no current FP nominations here, so a week block is unlikely to be to of any effect. Wrt Wikipedia behaviour, I see that in January he edit warred over the lead photo he had uploaded and inserted to Empress Elisabeth of Austria. I haven't looked any further back than that. -- Colin°Talk 07:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Colin,Colin this isn't commons....good night...--LivioAndronico (talk) 21:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since Livioandronico2013 is continuing to edit here (per his comment above) while making no apology and no offer to behave better, I'm going ahead with a one-week block for the personal attacks here on the English Wikipedia. EdJohnston (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Colin,Colin this isn't commons....good night...--LivioAndronico (talk) 21:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, I don't know what the technical term for it is, but the personal attacks left on my talk page are nothing to do with Wikipedia, but spill-over from his issues on Commons. They are using Wikipedia to attack me since they can't any longer do so on Commons. Evading their Commons block by attacking a Commons user on Wikipedia instead. Livioandronico doesn't edit very often, and has no current FP nominations here, so a week block is unlikely to be to of any effect. Wrt Wikipedia behaviour, I see that in January he edit warred over the lead photo he had uploaded and inserted to Empress Elisabeth of Austria. I haven't looked any further back than that. -- Colin°Talk 07:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Leaving a ping for @De728631 since they are the blocking admin on Commons. Suggest a one-week block here of Livioandronico2013 for personal attacks, based on the enwiki diffs above. Agree that IF he apologizes the block would not be necessary. The header of this report says the user is 'evading indef block on Commons' though that's not technically true since this is a different project. Still, if we are expecting different behavior here that would be optimistic. (Check out his comments in the Commons block discussion). EdJohnston (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
A perfect case of WP:NOTHERE
History21st (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been nothing but trouble from the moment they started editing (their short editing history speaks for itself). I don't know whether they have difficulty understanding how Wikipedia works or whether they are doing it on purpose, but what is certain is that they're making near impossible to improve articles by constantly restoring original research and deleting reliably sourced content. The various warnings on their page were simply ignored. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see that they're NOTHERE; what I do see is you leaving nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Drmies I left a perfectly justifiable warning on the 17th of this month, and another one today. What else am I supposed to do, let them remove sourced content? There is nothing wrong with the edit summaries, after all, I'm removing anything that shouldn't be there (either because it failed verification or it's OR). M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- You could talk to them. With sentences. If you want us to hand out a NOTHERE block you'll have to do better then go "just look at their history", and if you want us to take you seriously it would help if you'd done more than leave nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries--at the risk of repeating myself, of course. No need to ping me anymore. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Drmies I left a perfectly justifiable warning on the 17th of this month, and another one today. What else am I supposed to do, let them remove sourced content? There is nothing wrong with the edit summaries, after all, I'm removing anything that shouldn't be there (either because it failed verification or it's OR). M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm always concerned by editors who edit-war about the ethnicity or nationality of historical figures, as History21st is doing at Abd al-Mu'min. I don't see this as WP:NOTHERE; rather a situation where a new editor needs to be advised to use the talk page to resolve content issues such as whether this person's birthplace was ruled by the Almoravids or the Hammadids at the time. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- They were trying, on Talk:Abd al-Mu'min--but no one responded. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Actually, History21st did post on that talk page multiple times. M.Bitton (talk · contribs) (and also Aṭlas (talk · contribs)) are the ones who need to be advised to reply there. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Power~enwiki: Out of interest, how would you deal with this? Would you restore it to what the RS say, "discuss it" or simply leave it? If a statement fails verification and you remove it (as you should), what kind of edit summary would you leave? M.Bitton (talk) 00:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Actually, History21st did post on that talk page multiple times. M.Bitton (talk · contribs) (and also Aṭlas (talk · contribs)) are the ones who need to be advised to reply there. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- They were trying, on Talk:Abd al-Mu'min--but no one responded. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- "I'm not sure I agree with this edit. I'm going to revert but if you have a source for it please come to the talk page and we can hash it out." See? It's not hard to be civil. You should try it some time. --Tarage (talk) 01:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since Andalusia is in Spain, they're not contradictory, and the Samso (2007) reference describes him as "Andalusian". I'd be more concerned about "Residence: Caliphate" in the infobox, which makes little sense. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Power~enwiki: I would agree with you if the source was at the end of the sentence, but that's not the case. Notice that only the expression is attributed to the source and changing the expression would misrepresent the source, or at least, that's the way I see it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Frankly you're in the wrong here. You make an edit, it gets reverted, and then instead of going to the talk page you edit war. I'm not impressed. --Tarage (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah... looking at yours and their edits, at least they went to the talk page to TRY to reason with you. Meanwhile you decided the best way to solve this issue was to leave them warnings and then come here? Boomerang. If anyone isn't here to create an encyclopedia it's you. Close this down before you end up blocked and use the talk page instead of throwing a temper tantrum. --Tarage (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here are the facts:
- In the Abd al-Mu'min article, I made a single edit since History21st appeared on the scene and the whole birth place disagreement started (I restored the reliably sourced content that was deleted without a valid reason). Having looked at the edit history, all I saw is an editor desperately trying by any means necessary, including source misrepresentation, to introduce original research into the article. I left a gentle warning on their talk page (which they ignored).
- When I started cleaning the Expedition to Mostaganem (1558) article, I didn't think that anyone would be reverting some of my edits within seconds of me making them. When I realised what was happening, I issued a warning (since their reverts didn't even have edit summaries) and restored the page to an earlier version (deleting some of my edits in the process to start afresh). They reverted again (obliterating the source that I have added), and this time, asking me to do the impossible, to bring sources before removing WP:OR and content that failed verification. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here are the facts:
- Yeah... looking at yours and their edits, at least they went to the talk page to TRY to reason with you. Meanwhile you decided the best way to solve this issue was to leave them warnings and then come here? Boomerang. If anyone isn't here to create an encyclopedia it's you. Close this down before you end up blocked and use the talk page instead of throwing a temper tantrum. --Tarage (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm not an Admin or anything, but Maby you could actually READ what People are Trying to tell you? at least find out what a "Boomerang" is. Jena (talk) 13:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Dan56
Sorry this is a few days late, but Dan56 has been engaged in disruptive editing for quite a while now. First he opens a petty RfC over something we'd been arguing about and does so without even notifying me. Then we get into a needlessly lengthy discussion that went pretty much nowhere about a minor edit I made ([59]; I mistakenly thought it would go somewhere), and he does things like this:
- Accuses me of "misrepresenting publications/sources" ([60])
- Says things like this ([61]) when I say we should wait for more input because it isn't going anywhere
- Accuses me of not giving guidelines ([62]) when I clearly did ([63])
- Accuses me of having an agenda ([64])
- Claims not to understand what I'm saying when I've made my position perfectly clear and additionally implies that the whole thing makes no sense ([65], [66]; my position: [67], [68]; note the "0_0" at the end of his first comment)
- Opens a petty RfC about it and words it in an entirely non-neutral way
- Refuses to give up on it four months later and then claims there have been no attempts made to address his concerns ([69])
- Makes questionable assertions at best ([70])
- Says things that simply aren't true ([71]; see [72], [73], and [74])
- Plays dumb ([75], [76])
- Accuses me of saying things that aren't entirely relevant ([77])
Especially in light of his past behavior (see this and this), if this isn't an attempt to exhaust my patience and discourage other editors from engaging in discussion with him, I don't know what is. Someone please do something about it. Esszet (talk) 13:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just on the first point, while the RFC was exceedingly small, he may have thought it was necessary to gain consensus as you had been repeatedly edit warring to keep an instance of bad grammar in the article. Fish+Karate 14:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I realize we were edit warring (to an extent), but what? Bad grammar? I don't know what you're talking about, and you don't need RfC's for bad grammar anyway. Esszet (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, that? See here and here for examples of the sentence without the verb (as well as lots of others). Esszet (talk) 14:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- In addition to the fact that the
|all_writing=
parameter in {{album ratings}} yields "All tracks written by…" Esszet (talk) 14:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC) - …Did I do something wrong here? Esszet (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry if I was being impatient, I'm used to getting very quick responses here. Esszet (talk) 21:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Ever since "diff 1" the editor has shown zero WP:GOODFAITH by repeatedly calling me a "troll" (despite my history with the article) and, after being warned of disruptive editing based on WP:CITEVAR upon everything else and deleting it out of spite, the editor is one edit away from breaking the three-revert rule. Cognissonance (talk) 16:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I should add, the editor removing a low-score review for a high-score review stands out as WP:POV. Cognissonance (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sebastian James's talk is a history of warnings over edit warring and inappropriate edit summaries. Plus a few about personal attacks. There doesn't ever seem to have been any response to them other than deletion with dismissive and sarcastic edit summaries. It also looks like the user's predilection for removing comments he doesn't like includes other editors' posts on article talkpages. [78] Grandpallama (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- The user deleted the sourced info for reception, also changed the references, such as Metacritic like this.
- Also, Grandpallama, I don't change it because I dislike it, I change it because I think it's wrong. They never explain the problem in comments. I have seen two editors swearing at each other with their edit summaries, nothing happened to them... Sebastian James (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Deleting someone's article talkpage comments because you think they're "wrong" is completely, unambiguously not acceptable. Actually, pinging IUpdateRottenTomatoes since that's the user whose comments you arbitrarily deleted. As far as what you've seen "other editors" do, it's you whose conduct is being considered here. Grandpallama (talk) 18:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, Grandpallama, I use Puffin Browser most of the time when I contribute. Its performance is pretty bad so I try to keep my edits and edit summaries short. But, you still don't understand my comments. I didn't mean article takpage comments when I wrote "I change it because I think it's wrong". That's completely different from this topic. Also, I wrote about "other editors" because they did verbally attack each other and violated policies more than one. Still, I am the one who is charged because of "harassment" I made and an editor who clearly deleted sourced info and changed a reference badly, while accusing me with WP:CITEVAR. Sebastian James (talk)
- Sebastian James's talk is a history of warnings over edit warring and inappropriate edit summaries. Plus a few about personal attacks. There doesn't ever seem to have been any response to them other than deletion with dismissive and sarcastic edit summaries. It also looks like the user's predilection for removing comments he doesn't like includes other editors' posts on article talkpages. [78] Grandpallama (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Cognissonance, I have not examined this dispute, but I'll make one point that editors are allowed to remove warnings from their talk pages (we take that as a sign that they have read them). So it was wrong to do this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can some admin just take a look at this, I am just calling the cops on this as per what I stated on AFD--Quek157 (talk) 19:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- You have a warped view of what this board is for. This is not a place to 'call the cops'. In fact, there are several admins already looking at that page. I suggest you listen to them next time and calm down. That AFD is bludgeoned with your comments. --Tarage (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are coming through Wikipedia like a bull in a china shop. I've seen this in several areas. Slow down and let people work things out. This is not an emergency. Natureium (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- This type of request is probably more suited for IRC than this noticeboard; that thread is a disaster but it doesn't need immediate administrative intervention. I agree with the above commenters regarding "slowing down": for anything other than obvious vandalism, 24 hours for a resolution is considered fast. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, just noticed this. Perhaps in future when Quek157 "calls the cops", they should notify the editors they have called the cops on, as is clearly required for this noticeboard. Alexbrn (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just want to sit out this thing, for someone to take a look, rescuing myself. I am just notifying for an neutral admin to take a look, I have nothing to do with this at all. I had discussed with Deb. No response. I had discussed with RoySmith, which I also stated rescue, he just hope for a neutral admin. End of this discussion, withdrawn. I take that I had been final warned not to use this board anymore for such requests, firvolous, or not. That's it. If one more time I did this I will not mind to be Topic Ban here. I didn't notify anyone because this isn't a report to anybody, I don't file this against anyone --Quek157 (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, just noticed this. Perhaps in future when Quek157 "calls the cops", they should notify the editors they have called the cops on, as is clearly required for this noticeboard. Alexbrn (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Threat by Admin to out an editor
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The drama started last night. It has now gone from silly to chilling to deeply disturbing (for me, at least) because it's being perpetrated by an administrator. Andrevan began at the talk page of Factchecker atyourservice with this [79]. It then morphed into this [80] at AN. Next, it went then to Andrevan's talk page with several admins asking him to stop here [81]. And now, what seemed at first like an April Fool's joke became a threat (here: [82]) to out an editor, MONGO, (here [83]) if he doesn't declare a WP:COI that no one, other than Andrevan, feels exists. Anyone else see the whole affair as a problem that needs to be solved, and immediately? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I will not be outing any editors on-wiki, and that's not a threat. Andrevan@ 20:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Does this response indicate you plan to do it off-Wiki? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- That's not an outing threat. That is a statement that they do not intend to out someone. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- 🙄 Winkelvi, does your response indicate that you know about something I might OUT? I believe the recommended way to handle sensitive COIs is to do via private email between privileged users with oversight/checkuser/ArbCom etc. Andrevan@ 20:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Technically, you are correct. That said, did you look at all the diffs/links, though, TonyBallioni? The tone of his comment and his exact words at my talk page, as well as his stated plans everywhere else in regard to this situation, did seem as if he intends/intended to out not just MONGO, but me as well. Even if I weren't involved, I would see this as a threat to out and a big, big problem. His comments just above mine here also have a chilling feel to them, as if I am hiding something and his suspicions that I and MONGO are Russian spies attempting to infiltrate Wikipedia are correct - which, I think he feels justifies what he's said and what he's been doing since last night. This is a problem. At least it sure seems like it to me. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Methinks thou doth protest much Winkelvi. I won't be OUTing anyone. I'm sorry if I offended you, although I don't think I specifically mentioned you at all. Andrevan@ 20:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but when an admin behaves as you have in the last 24 hours (and gets so much attention from other admins because of it), there's reason for the community to be concerned and protest. Loudly. And yes, you did mention me. Plus, you're posting about on my talkpage for crying out loud. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I came to your talk page because you and MONGO were having a discussion in which you considered the possibility of my account being compromised. It's not, I implied there may be evidence about MONGO that is sensitive which I didn't share, and you told me to stop beating the dead horse. Perhaps I am not the one beating the horse? I don't recall naming you in any of my posts. Andrevan@ 20:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, yes you did mention me. Specifically when you asked another administrator to contact you off-wiki so you could get more information on me (as well as MONGO):
"Perhaps, if you have a good reason to know that MONGO and Winkelvi are good faith editors, you could send me some information about via email so that I focus my attention at the proper editors."
[84]. I don't know if you and Drmies exchanged emails over this situation, but if you did, it doesn't seem you paid much attention to it since you are now implying I have something to hide:"Methinks thou doth protest much Winkelvi."
-- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 21:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, yes you did mention me. Specifically when you asked another administrator to contact you off-wiki so you could get more information on me (as well as MONGO):
- I came to your talk page because you and MONGO were having a discussion in which you considered the possibility of my account being compromised. It's not, I implied there may be evidence about MONGO that is sensitive which I didn't share, and you told me to stop beating the dead horse. Perhaps I am not the one beating the horse? I don't recall naming you in any of my posts. Andrevan@ 20:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but when an admin behaves as you have in the last 24 hours (and gets so much attention from other admins because of it), there's reason for the community to be concerned and protest. Loudly. And yes, you did mention me. Plus, you're posting about on my talkpage for crying out loud. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I read all the links you provided. None of them are outing threats, even if they may otherwise be behavior that I would not expect from an admin or bureaucrat. Outing is a very serious accusation, and I don't see it here. This looks to be your standard AP2 mess with an added dose of Russian conspiracies. Andrevan has clarified the do not intend to violate the outing policy. If you have other concerns about their behavior in this subject area, WP:AE (or WP:ARC if you want to start the now presumed inevitable AP3 case with the Russian agent issue being raised by an admin/crat as the situation showing a new case is needed) would be your best recourses. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Methinks thou doth protest much Winkelvi. I won't be OUTing anyone. I'm sorry if I offended you, although I don't think I specifically mentioned you at all. Andrevan@ 20:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Technically, you are correct. That said, did you look at all the diffs/links, though, TonyBallioni? The tone of his comment and his exact words at my talk page, as well as his stated plans everywhere else in regard to this situation, did seem as if he intends/intended to out not just MONGO, but me as well. Even if I weren't involved, I would see this as a threat to out and a big, big problem. His comments just above mine here also have a chilling feel to them, as if I am hiding something and his suspicions that I and MONGO are Russian spies attempting to infiltrate Wikipedia are correct - which, I think he feels justifies what he's said and what he's been doing since last night. This is a problem. At least it sure seems like it to me. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Does this response indicate you plan to do it off-Wiki? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have strong concerns about Andrevan from witnessing just one day of edits, but possibility of outing someone isn't one of them. It's more of a lack of any semblance of judgement. Natureium (talk) 20:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I read everything and I don't see a real threat about outing. I did, however, read a stupid, out-of-nowhere contemplation about if Trump-supporting editors are working for Russia. I haven't seen too much of a battleground, aside from excessive nominations for deletion surrounding pages about Trump scandals and even those are becoming less frequent as the Mueller investigation continues. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 20:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with the above assessment that Andrevan's comment cannot be reasonably perceived as a threat. Andrevan has been heavily criticized for his recent accusations in a heavily-regulated, highly controversial subject area, and I myself have advised him that nothing short of an Arbcom case would be appropriate for expressing the accusations he's making. Others have been more harsh in their criticism. But, assuming he hears the criticism and backs off, as he has indicated he has, we need to be working towards de-escalation of any and all threats and personal commentary on both sides. This thread is not helping the situation, and neither is the thread discussing Andrevan on a user talk page. His accusations may be unfounded, but that does not justify unfounded accusations in retaliation. I strongly all parties involved to assume good faith, harbor no grudges, and focus on content, not contributors going forward, lest we need to resort to the discretionary sanctions. Swarm ♠ 22:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
"that does not justify unfounded accusations in retaliation."
Swarm, please be assured that this report is absolutely not retaliatory. I personally don't care what Andrevan thinks of me in regard to his accusations, I only care if his comments indicate he's going after editors and trying to get dirt on them and then out them because of his misguided perception they/we are Russian agents seeking to propagandize Wikipedia. My reading of his comments said something others aren't seeing, and that's fine. In fact, I'm relieved that others don't see it as I'd rather that be the case than the opposite. My statement at the end of my original post in this thread ("Anyone else see the whole affair as a problem that needs to be solved...?") was pretty clearly explaining why I came here, so I don't know why you'd think the report is a form of getting even. It was a report borne out of concern and asking for more eyes/opinions, nothing more. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Andrevan is abusing his position as an administrator of this website. A cursory look at his last near decade of contributions here demonstrate he has done only enough to maintain keeping his tools and crat flag. He just got through threatening to block someone [85] and accused them of block evasion and offers zero evidence to support this claim, not unlike his preposterous claim that Russian paid operatives are amongst us. This continues and the AGF goes out the window as he has extended zero of that to myself and others he is harassing.--MONGO 23:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Encourage you to review Wikipedia:Banning policy#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors with reference to the IP editor that I warned for linking to off-wiki diffs and speculating that they had been written by a user with deep knowledge of Wikipedia dispute resolution. Even if this user is not the banned user, he is posting content from a disgruntled blocked user. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Unexplained_removal_of_content Andrevan@ 00:01, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Intuition is not enough but if you don't understand checkuser then go ahead and file a report there and see what your fishing expedition gets you.--MONGO 00:27, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- The failure by Andrevan to listen to many experienced editors and admins to stop their crusade of insisting that editors who disagree with their POV on the Trump articles are Russian agents is very troubling. Andrevan has stated they will back down from this, so I am not sure action is necessary, but it do think Andrevan should drop the accusations and work a bit more collaboratively. Mr Ernie (talk) 01:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Off-wiki personal attacks in articles
- Ideological bias on Wikipedia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Netoholic has spun out a section from criticism of Wikipedia. He is rather determined to include an off-wiki personal attack by Brian Martin (social scientist), a promoter of conspiracy theories, the debunked OPV-AIDS hypothesis and anti-vaccinationism, who was upset that I edited our article on him to be less flattering than Gongwool (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) left it (Gongwool turned out to be a sockpuppet, imagine that). He asserts that "Most of the items you removed were copied there from within other articles already about Wikipedia", but the section on Martin does not appear to be anywhere else, but instead to have been written by Netoholic himself.
He's also pushing criticisms by the Discovery Institute and Conservapedia. There is a clear lack of consensus on Talk for including this stuff, but he seems to think it should go back in "per WP:NPOV" ([86]). I disagree.
I also commented on an AE case he raised against SPECIFICO, noting that the case, combined with an earlier one, might amount to vexatious abuse of process - as a result of that thread he was restricted from abuse of noticeboards. So he's edit warring to include an off-wiki attack on an admin with whom he's in dispute. That does not seem like an especially good idea. Guy (Help!) 20:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just to clarify a point from JzG, Gongwool had nothing to do with Martin. That account and their socks added multiple BLP violations to an already negative article, and did not make it "less flattering", but more of a BLP nightmare. - Bilby (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK, fair, I was misremembering. I had also forgotten how determinedly you downplayed the antivax bullshit in that article. Which pissed me off quite a bit, but I think that in the end it was mainly better. Guy (Help!) 21:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I made the mistake of trying to make it compliant with BLP. - Bilby (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reasonable people may differ on how specific content may be shaded in an article. I hope we are both reasonable people. I don't doubt your commitment to BLP, but am still disquieted by the extent to which you have defended antivaxers and charlatans. However, we can discuss that article by article, as we always have - in the end if we both edit an article it is generally better than if only one of is did, or neither, in my view. Guy (Help!) 22:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I made the mistake of trying to make it compliant with BLP. - Bilby (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK, fair, I was misremembering. I had also forgotten how determinedly you downplayed the antivax bullshit in that article. Which pissed me off quite a bit, but I think that in the end it was mainly better. Guy (Help!) 21:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wrote up about this study and several other scholarly studies when creating the new article "Ideological bias on Wikipedia". Here is the source of the study written by Brian Martin (paywalled, but reproduced here) and User:JzG is specifically identified and criticized by the author. This represents a very clear WP:Conflict of interest and JzG should distance himself from this topic. I believe his complaints about other content are potentially valid, but I think his COI is interfering with his overall objectivity with regards to other content of the article (like Conservapedia, a section which I did not wrote, but incorporated from other articles on Wikipedia). I tried to address this with JzG personally, but they've now recently gone around and removed this study from several pages it was mentioned on. They've also has opened Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Ideological bias on Wikipedia and now this. I bear no ill-will to JzG. This has nothing to do with any prior interactions I've had with JzG. My edit of this study (22 May) predates his comment on the AE thread (23 May) and so has nothing to do with that. In fact I respect his fair take on that AE and would never take any opportunity to attack him, and that respect led me to go to him personally, but I was told obliquely to "fuck off". -- Netoholic @ 21:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- This is not a "scholarly study". Some of the ones you included are - they examine numerous articles and analyse trends, using objective measures over time. This is an article subject saying "look how much more flattering this other article on my rival is" and taking a pop at a named editor (yes, me) for reflecting the mainstream view of his promotion of the debunked OPV-AIDS hypothesis and other antivax conspiracist claptrap. And even where the work you cite is scholarly, you have cherry-picked from primary sources. In fact, your article on ideological bias in Wikipedia is starting to look an awful lot like your personal essay based on your recent repeated failure to gain traction in a number of articles where you assert that Wikipedia has an ideological bias. Guy (Help!) 21:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- What a troublesome situation it would be if all one had to do to disqualify a Wikipedian from a topic was to criticize their edits on that topic in an off-wiki paper. If JzG were to begin approaching these subjects in a different way (e.g. if he had been writing about Martin positively, but then took a negative view after publication of that article, or if he had not previously edited Martin's biography and received criticism from Martin on a different subject, then began criticizing Martin directly -- neither of which is the case, as far as I can tell), there would be a problem. Continuing to take the stance that got him mentioned by Martin to begin with is just being consistent and in no way constitutes a COI problem. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Another issue that should be raised here, separately from anything about the Martin issue (with which I am not familiar), is that it is emerging at Talk:Political views of American academics#Paul Hollander and Talk:Political views of American academics#Representative presentation of sources that Netoholic appears to have been misrepresenting sources (cherrypicking) in order to push a conservative POV. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
User:JzG should be topic-banned from any mention of Brian Martin
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User:JzG is named in Brian Martin's paper "Persistent bias on Wikipedia: methods and responses," published in the peer-reviewed academic journal Social Science Computer Review (2017). Martin wrote that "admin JzG (aka Guy) rewrote most of my Wikipedia entry, turning it into an attack on my reputation. In the following months, this negative framing was maintained, primarily by JzG and editor Gongwool." Martin wrote that User:JzG deleted positive material, removing text about his achievements and deleting the list of his works, and added negative material. Notwithstanding his obvious COI, User:JzG on 25 May 2018 began scrubbing mention of Martin's analysis of the edits made to his BLP—and thus mention of User:JzG. The first such removal came at 15:16. Despite a good faith effort by User:Netoholic to reason with User:JzG, the latter continued scrubbing such entries, resuming at 18:06, again at 19:54, another at 21:11, and yet again at 21:29. Since User:JzG has demonstrated his disdain for Wikipedia's conflict of interest guideline, he should be topic-banned from any edits relating to Brian Martin. KalHolmann (talk) 22:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. Off-wiki criticism of on-wiki actions does not make a conflict of interest. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No --Tarage (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No No evidence for a conflict of interest. Plenty of evidence for a butt-hurt academic. Kleuske (talk) 22:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No reason to believe this is a COI problem. O3000 (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No Topic banning an editor because an article's subject names them off-site sets a bad precedent. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment WP:BLPCOI: "An editor who is involved in a significant controversy or dispute with another individual—whether on- or off-wiki—or who is an avowed rival of that individual, should not edit that person's biography or other material about that person, given the potential conflict of interest. More generally, editors who have a strongly negative or positive view of the subject of a biographical article should be especially careful to edit that article neutrally, if they choose to edit it at all." I don't think a topic ban is needed, but in accordance with the BLP precautionary spirit it would be best if someone else handled the situation. I mean, it's not exactly the best look for integrity when JzG is creating a thread about an article he is mentioned in, on the fringe theory noticeboard [87]. Also it seems like JzG is unnecessarily personalizing the dispute there, speculating that Netoholic's main motivation appears to be his repeated failure to change articles due to Wikipedia's "ideological bias". I agree that it's problematic that this only came to be after the academic mentioned him in the article; but it also means it's already a multi-step "rivalry". --Pudeo (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No - I see no COI here, and as has been mentioned, TBANning an editor because a subject mentions them off-wiki sets a perverse precedent that could allow subjects to game the system. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 23:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No to topic banning re "any mention of Brian Martin", but it would probably be a good idea for Guy to let someone else handle anything relating to this paper by Martin critical of him. EEng 23:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- No - It is absurd to suggest that someone outside Wikipedia could determine who should not edit an article about them. Moriori (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - This appears to be in retaliation for WP:AN#KalHolmann. Not saying it is for sure, just that it appears to be. Swarm ♠ 00:29, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. Also, a WP:BOOMERANG or at least a trout to the filer for rewriting history. --Calton | Talk 00:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, obviously, per what I wrote just above. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
IP Making Legal Threats
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See [88]. Looks like other trouble too. Legal threat template posted. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: I've reported them to AIV even before the legal threat. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Clear legal threat
On Paul Spadafora (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Legal threat By Angel0905 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Jim1138 (talk) 05:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Seems like a clear legal threat. Blocked indef. SQLQuery me! 05:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- In fairness, the offending editor may have become unhinged when confronted with the article's idiotic linking of terms such as automobile, alcohol, and marriage. And let's not forget the potentially defamatory statement that the subject was accused of assisting a 63-year-old woman [90]. EEng 12:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Disruptive editing in spite of repeated warnings
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The user Mayerroute5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly editing warring and persistently reinstating his own version of an edit in the page 2018 Indian Premier League and also the templates Template:2018 IPL match 58 and Template:2018 IPL match 59. All that in spite of the rule being explained to him and he being warned not to edit war on multiple occasions. He has been requested to communicate on his talkpage as well but there is no reply although the disruptive edits are persistent. It is becoming really difficult to maintain the accuracy of that section as per protocols due to this disruptive edit pattern by the aforementioned user looking to reinstate his own version. In addition to that, obviously there has been violation of the 3 revert rule as well by the user. I request some admin action on this. Many thanks in advance. Cricket246 (talk) 07:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Cricket again? Can't we just drop all coverage of cricket? No one would notice. EEng 12:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Blocked for 72 hours. Persistent revert-warring on multiple pages, has never, ever, used a talk or usertalk page. Hopefully that will get their attention. Black Kite (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
IP 2405:204:208:D051:A489:E92E:D5CA:985C
Can someone block this IP right now? Impersonation of SpacemanSpiff and edit-warring. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's just Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/JBM1971 (although, I think that SPI has to be split to two groups). I've blocked the Ip for 12 hours now, unlikely to stick to this any longer than that.—SpacemanSpiff 14:27, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Disruptive editing following AfD appeal decision
About 3 weeks ago User:Alexbrn proposed Criticisms of medicine for deletion. After 2 weeks of discussion, an administrator ruled for deletion. Believing that there was no consensus for deletion and that strong policy-based arguments had not been presented for deletion, I appealed that decision. Yesterday an administrator overturned the deletion decision and restored the article. Within minutes User:Alexbrn made 18 deletion edits to Criticisms of medicine, reducing it to an incoherent stub (from about 19KB to about 1300 bytes) and immediately again proposed it for deletion in the vandalized form. The new AfD discussion has many new delete opinions, is confused and pointless. I'm a new editor, but even I can see that this refusal to accept the consensus of the deletion appeal process is contrary to Wikipedia policy. NightHeron (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- The one thing that is clearly absent here is consensus. The overturn was to no consensus, basically. There is nothing wrong with another discussion of this article, given the problems identified elsewhere. Maybe this time there will actually be a consensus. Guy (Help!) 15:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wow, that was messed up. I can't see that as anything other than an attempt to alter the AfD outcome. But that aside, it's been restored, it doesn't look like any of the current opposers are doing so based on the fact that it was mostly blanked like that. Do you disagree? (Just as a procedural note, the DRV consensus was to change the closing admin's reading of the discussion to "no consensus". It was not a consensus to "keep" in itself.) Swarm ♠ 15:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
There's a real concern if the article is again discussed at length in AfD. Editors have already spent 3 weeks discussing deletion (2 in AfD + 1 in appeal). There was obvious consensus (with a few dissenters, including User:Alexbrn) that the topic is appropriate for Wikipedia. Of course it needs improvement, as would any new article written by a newcomer. I've found two new sources to add for that purpose as soon as we pass to a constructive phase of improvement rather than quarreling about deletion.
In addition, I'd much appreciate it if experienced editors could think about a procedural issue that I, as a newcomer, don't have any idea how to deal with. A fairly large group of like-minded editors, most (not all) of whom are members of WikiProject Medicine, apparently have the article and related discussions watchlisted, so that they can immediately jump in to any discussion. That's perfectly compliant with policy. However, I cannot try to alert people who believe the article needs to be changed, because that would violate WP:CANVASSING. So any such discussion is likely to be lopsided. For this reason I've been warned by an experienced editor that it'll be a waste of my time to try to edit the polemical tone and slanted content of this article. This particular article has also been the subject of an off-Wiki complaint (see the discussion of the article on the NPOV noticeboard), where it was used to illustrate a general criticism of Wikipedia. Using the alt med article as the basis for a general criticism of Wikipedia is unfair, because the article is an outlier. Even though I'm a new editor, I've been reading Wikipedia for many years, and I'm unaware of any other article that is so polemical and slanted (except for ones that are quickly deleted or else edited to remove the POV).NightHeron (talk) 16:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Block of obvious sock of very disruptive sock master needed
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92.3.97.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is an obvious sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334 and needs to be blocked. Obvious per being the usual ISP (TalkTalk), the usual location (Essex, UK), the usual edits (claiming that everything is Turkish) and the usual behaviour (including threatening to kill people who revert them, see edit summaries in their contributions). It has been reported at WP:AIV but that place is seriously backlogged... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
User: Maude~Duggel
User:Maude~Duggel has a history of making uncivil comments. See the description of the following edit. [91] and edit [92]. In addition, the editor had a history of creating and submitting draft articles for inclusion in the mainspace via AFC with only very minor changes between versions. See Draft:The Disney Brain and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jerson Sapida. This editor's edits are disruptive and frankly have wasted numerous hours of volunteer time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reddogsix (talk • contribs) 14:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: I've been watching their talkpage since AfC declining one of their junk submissions. About an hour ago I was thinking of bringing them to ANi myself. Their participation at AfD is suboptimal as well, voting twice, making weird comments etc. I'm not sure the solution but maybe prohibit them from creating new drafts or mainspace pages for 6 months? That would reduce the AfD issues too and give them some time to learn more about Wikiacceptable behavior? Legacypac (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- I hadn't realized she'd edited more articles than what's currently at Draft:The Disney Brain. Early versions of it and her reactions to its deletion [93] had all the hallmarks of autobiography. —Cryptic 15:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I have blocked the user. I have tried to reason with her, offer advice in AFDs, and even given her a final warning about civility, which she just violated. She is welcome to appeal her block and I will consider it, because I feel that she could be a good contributor here, if she can listen to advice, get the message from all the deletions of her articles, be civil, and stop the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Nheyob looks compromised
Look at this: [94] [95]. wumbolo ^^^ 15:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Already blocked by JzG (talk · contribs). ~Anachronist (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
IAWI
- IAWI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
@EdJohnston:, one move is not vandalism, these many problems are. It is with much regret I came here, on advice at [96]. I have a few grievances with it. I tend to let this slide but no.
- Inappropriate AFD nominations this one I reverted, 2nd one, 3rd one, 4th one
- Inappropriate AFD closure, no way it is a SNOW close, and no way can that be SKCRIT, the whole discussion did not take into account anything, [97] with a notice that I didn't do my homework
- Inappropriate moves of To. Day to Draft:To.Day after I clearly had done my New Page Patrol. I added reimprove sources, and then they move back into drafts. There are now at least 4 new sources available. Per WP:DRAFTIFY, they should not had done these. Many other of their moves are unacceptable. (see move log)
- Triggering multiple edit filters, as well as multiple PRODs on new articles, as well as a AFD on their article due to @Kudpung: cannot delete via A7 with nearly unanimous consensus at AFD.P4R4G0N_(hacktivist) One alone is disruptive, warning is enough, but multiple needs admin attention.
- User involved: IAWI.
- I already will like to end this entire coming to AN/I, however, this entire continuation of nonsensical issues with IAWI is unacceptable. --Quek157 (talk) 16:32, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- User involved notified User_talk:IAWI#Deletion_discussion_about_Rudolf_Kallaste --Quek157 (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not seeking ban, but a strong last warning this is not acceptable and refer to all the closes in AFD and all the nominations properly. --Quek157 (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi Admins, I am sorry but this is absurd, I'm not even mad, I'm laughing. 1. Please view this Ed clearly explained to him that he is overreacting, Quek157 didn't even tell me anything before coming to this board. - You'll see the person in question being kind of 'bias mad' towards me for no reason. 2. I even went to his talk page reagrding the AfD that he did NO HOMEWORK on as he nominated it, and explained his faulty nomination, view here. I'm very confused honestly, I even tried to be nice via sending him an informative messeage of his faulty nomination in his talk page. 3. I have not closed anyhting except CLEAR OBVIOUS Snow cases. 4. I respect everyone, and I except to be respected to. Thank u. --IAWI (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- User_talk:IAWI#Deletion_discussion_about_Rudolf_Kallaste clearly someone else is telling you SNOW close is not appropriate. You are the writer of the article and I AFD it, there is no way you can SNOW close this.
Admins, do this reminds you about the Kirbazano case?innocent party. im sorry very sorry --Quek157 (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)- Luckily, User:Bbb23 has suddenly appeared and blocked User:IAWI as a sock. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- User_talk:IAWI#Deletion_discussion_about_Rudolf_Kallaste clearly someone else is telling you SNOW close is not appropriate. You are the writer of the article and I AFD it, there is no way you can SNOW close this.
Factchecker atyourservice
I asked him to stop pinging me[98], and he pinged me anyway.[99] Note: I did not read the content of whatever he wrote, as that would reward the undesirable behavior. I do not wish to have any further interactions with this user. Taking my own advice, I am not watching his talk page, and if I see any comment anywhere with his signature I skip to the next comment without reading it.
Related: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement by Guy Macon --Guy Macon (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- You know you can mute notifications from him at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo, right? —Cryptic 16:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Deliberate pinging after a request to desist may
isalso be clear harassment; e.g. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 16:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)- No, I am not sure it is (at least not in intent). I think we just have a user who is not there for anything other then what he wants to read.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Clarified. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 16:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just wanted him to stop. I just muted him in my preferences, which solves the immediate problem. If he pings me again I won't see it and someone else can deal with it if they feel like it. Thanks, Cryptic! I had forgotten that I can do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, part of his one-way iBan includes an order not to ping me. When you tell someone to stop pinging, and they keep doing it, that's harassment. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just wanted him to stop. I just muted him in my preferences, which solves the immediate problem. If he pings me again I won't see it and someone else can deal with it if they feel like it. Thanks, Cryptic! I had forgotten that I can do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Clarified. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 16:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, I am not sure it is (at least not in intent). I think we just have a user who is not there for anything other then what he wants to read.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Deliberate pinging after a request to desist may
This certainly is harassment; what’s more it is a habit of Factchecker’s. Earlier, after being banned from User:BullRangifer's talk page (a ban which took several requests from BR and finally from an admin before he would respect it), he then switched to criticizing BR at other sites, pinging him every time, so that an admin finally had to impose an IBAN to stop him. This new one is a particularly egregious example since the ping came immediately after, and in response to, Guy saying “don’t ping me”. Factchecker is currently blocked for a week.[100] This harassing ping to Guy, from Factchecker’s talk page, came while the block was in place. IMO there is a strong case here for extending the block. --MelanieN (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Frankly you need to get a thicker skin if you consider just one instance of using Template:Reply to (when actually replying to you) as harassment. I can understand it could be harassment if someone's using it to spam jabs at someone who's not relevant to the dicussion in different venues, but not in a discussion. Don't be that guy. --Pudeo (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)