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Laser brain (talk | contribs) |
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:As for "denying the logic of your arguments," and engaging in disruptive conduct, I simply don't agree with you. We haven't come to the same conclusion about whether the MoS is clear or not in its current form. That's not a bannable offense. Asking questions and taking part in debate on a talk page even when other people don't agree isn't disruptive conduct; it's Wikipedia. |
:As for "denying the logic of your arguments," and engaging in disruptive conduct, I simply don't agree with you. We haven't come to the same conclusion about whether the MoS is clear or not in its current form. That's not a bannable offense. Asking questions and taking part in debate on a talk page even when other people don't agree isn't disruptive conduct; it's Wikipedia. |
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:The issue at hand is whether or not it is okay to take an article that already uses American punctuation and change the stray periods and commas so that they match the article's prevailing style, making the article internally consistent. And just to be clear, I've been doing it for years. It has nothing to do with you, Ilkali, MChavez, or any of our discussions on the MoS talk page. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 18:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
:The issue at hand is whether or not it is okay to take an article that already uses American punctuation and change the stray periods and commas so that they match the article's prevailing style, making the article internally consistent. And just to be clear, I've been doing it for years. It has nothing to do with you, Ilkali, MChavez, or any of our discussions on the MoS talk page. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 18:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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: I'm "involved", so I wouldn't take any admin action here, but I want to opine that Darkfrog24 is deliberately editing against the MoS guideline after he failed to get his changes pushed through. He has been asked to stop, as noted above, and he continues to do so under the guise of "making the article consistent", even if it's consistently wrong, apparently. I consider this a form of disruption since he knows what he is doing and he knows it's against consensus. This needs to stop. The damage is far more subtle than overt vandalism, but it also takes more work and expertise to clean up. --[[User:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">'''Laser brain'''</font >]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">(talk)</font >]] 19:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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== Bad move reverts == |
== Bad move reverts == |
Revision as of 19:39, 9 June 2009
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Copyright input request
- Allstarecho (talk · contribs)
Hi. Today's batch at WP:CP included Lazy Magnolia Brewing Company, which consisted almost entirely of text pasted from the official website and its subpages. (Admins only, I'm afraid, can view this, since it is now deleted.) When the copyright infringement was pointed out, the contributor evidently made an effort to obtain permission, but restored the text out of process while doing so, ostensibly so that the copyright holders could see the text in use. Not having received permission, he removed the single tagged section, but that left considerably more text from the site exposed (See the bottom of his talk page for some conversation about this.) Given the contributors evident misunderstanding of copyright policy (including the note in edit summary that "copyedit this section too to address any concerns.. although I'd hardly call descriptions of what a beer tastes like as being copyrightable"), I started checking the contributors other work and have found two more pastes for which he is evidently responsible (Including Grand Gulf Military State Park (Mississippi), which the contributor removed with the note "no copyright notice on that site but to appease the stalker...") and Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks, which he restored as not copyrightable, notwithstanding Mississippi's explicit claim otherwise. (The facts are not copyrightable, but the language used is.) I also found another copyright infringement which he did not place, but in an article which he split without noting the origin. There seem to be serious misunderstandings about copyright policy here, including that we can publish copyrighted text in the hopes that the owners will grant license, that beer descriptions can't be copyrighted and that we can use copyrighted text if it is not explicitly claimed. Since this contributor is taking my scrutiny personally, I would welcome other input. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't need other input, but thanks. Nothing to see or do here, carry on. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 17:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Unless you've now decided that beer descriptions and websites that do not explicitly claim copyright can't be used under our copyright policy, I'm afraid that I do. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- In the U.S., prior to the Copyright Act of 1976, published works needed an explicit copyright notice to be covered by copyright law. (Lack of a copyright notice on a print run of Houghton Mifflin's American publication of The Lord of the Rings allowed Ace Books to publish an unauthorized version of the trilogy.) After 1976, all published works were covered, regardless of whether they had a notice or not, and unpublished works were covered as well -- so whether a webiste explicitly claims copyright or not is totally irrelevant. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 18:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Unless you've now decided that beer descriptions and websites that do not explicitly claim copyright can't be used under our copyright policy, I'm afraid that I do. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Although Allstarecho evidently still feels harassed by my overview of his contributions, I have found copyright from diverse sources going all the way back to 2007, with Lanier High School (Jackson, Mississippi), which duplicates this copyrighted 2006 source: [1]. And, in fact, I see he removed a Corensearchbot notice from an article he created here and was advised of copyright policies here. To boot, he still does not accept that this is in any way wrong, per edit summary: as usual, facts can't be copyrighted but whatever. I believe more input might be valuable. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- You are correct in your analysis. Simply remove anything prior to 1976 (as mentioned above) that is not covered by a copyright release statement. If the editor replaces it, then block them. Black Kite 00:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's somewhat easier said than done, given the extensive contribution history, but I'm doing my best. :/ Meanwhile, the more I look, the more I am concerned that this contributor has shown no interest in complying with copyright policy, given the tone with which he's addressed these concerns and previous issues. His attitude doesn't seem to have changed since he was advised in September, 2007, when he said, "I'm not incorrect because I said I don't FEEL text about a public educational institution, especially one my tax dollars help pay for, is copyrighted." In other words, evidence suggests he has not been unaware of these policies, having removed a number of Corensearchbot notices as well as basically shrugging off that 2007 conversation. He seems simply to have not felt inclined to honor them, just as he removed without comment this notice of the issue and request to address it by yet another administrator on May 30th of this year. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This is a serious problem of repeated, intentional copyright violations. If the user continues to upload copyright infringements, he should be immediately blocked. Meanwhile, we're going to have to plow through his contributions to remove any and all copyvios that he's added, since it's clear he won't do it himself. Any assistance would be welcome. (Moonriddengirl, do you think the damage is extensive enough to merit a checklist at Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Contributor surveys?) – Quadell (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Taking MRG's assertions on trust, I agree with Quadell's conclusion. Allstarecho, your actions are out of line and you must reconsider your position or else cease contributing. No amount of flippancy routes around the absolute intolerability of copyright violation on wikipedia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've done an initial review of Allstarecho's contributions, and the problem is in fact far worse than Moonriddengirl's description - he has been routinely and indiscriminately borrowing copyrighted content from a variety of sources for years, and considerable effort will be involved in cleaning them up. His comments demonstrate that he has a distorted understanding of how copyright functions, which is probably the root cause of this, and as such I wouldn't trust him to clean his own contributions. His actions to restore his deleted contributions and remove copyvio templates prevented the issue from being detected sooner, and are are making the cleanup twice as difficult as it needs to be, and he should be blocked at least for the duration of the cleanup. Moreover, I would not unblock him unless he promises to cease copying content from external sources altogether - I don't trust him to distinguish public domain sources from copyrighted ones with any degree of reliability. This is unfortunate because he does also contribute original content, but a necessary precaution to enable the cleanup to proceed without disruption and without new copyvios being added. Dcoetzee 04:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- User says he is retired, but did not go gracefully. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 05:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'd have to say that saddens me somewhat. I have had generally positive interactions with Allstarecho in the past. I do agree that copyright is a serious issue, and we need to tread carefully when copying text and pictures from other sources. I certainly wish he had handled this better. sigh. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- It'd been handled better if I hadn't been wiki-hounded all fucking day. I mean, look at my talk page history. And just to ease some people's fetish with the idea that I don't understand copyright: I do. Most of these g'damn articles were done in my wiki-infancy. Any newer ones which may be in question, I don't agree that statistical facts (dates, percentages, times and related words to explain such facts) is copyrightable.. just like a textual logo isn't copyrightable. But whatever, I'm done with the Wiki. I've had all I can stand of the wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking I got in one day - no, not even a full one day, more like the bombardment I got in the span of about 7 hours. No need to reply or try and explain any of your own interpretations of copyright to me because frankly, I don't give a shite anymore and am now, with this last post, retired.. so if you waste the finger strokes, you're just preaching to the choir. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 05:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'd have to say that saddens me somewhat. I have had generally positive interactions with Allstarecho in the past. I do agree that copyright is a serious issue, and we need to tread carefully when copying text and pictures from other sources. I certainly wish he had handled this better. sigh. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- User says he is retired, but did not go gracefully. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 05:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nicely done....we have pushed away ANOTHER good editor over some minor BS. Allstar was and is one of the better editors here at Wikipedia and it is a sad day when the good editors say "to hell with it" and walk away because of pointless minor BS and no one says a damned thing about it. Pathetic. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 06:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Copyright isn't minor BS, and he will be back. ViridaeTalk 07:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- There's nothing good about pasting text from copyrighted sources onto Wikipedia. This contributor was advised years ago that this was against policy, but as recently as May 24th copied [2] and many of its subpages onto Wikipedia, removing the {{copyvio}} template from the article that was placed by an administrator (not me). That he chooses to view the clean-up of this as persecution just verifies the problem to me. What are we supposed to do when it's been proven that a contributor has pasted text against policy on Wikipedia? Look the other way? He has ignored or rejected correction on this issue with hostility at every point I've seen. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- This kind of thing is potentially a very serious problem. I see that AllStar has been blocked, but that's just the tip of the copyright iceberg. I have seen various articles over time (by many editors) that "read like copyright violations", but how do you go about proving it? Thanks to endless sites parroting wikipedia, finding the original source can be very difficult. You take a suspicious-sounding phrase put it into Google, find hundreds of entries containing it, check each one to see if they are wikipedia parrots or not, and maybe you'll find the original. So you repair the article and hope that's reflected eventually in the mirroring sites. OK, that's 1 down, a few million to go. It's the proliferation that's really the problem - the same problem as with copyrighted images. Someday wikipedia might get sued over this kind of thing, if they haven't been already. But that's also just the tip of the iceberg. It is so incredibly easy to copy-and-paste on the internet, how can an author who publishes on the internet have any realistic expectation of it not being proliferated, regardless of his theoretical legal rights? This will be an interesting issue for the Supreme Court to tackle someday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- If they ever abolish copyright, my Wiki day will be a lot more fun. :) We are trying to organize this sort of thing. Dcoetzee made a program that surveys contributions, and we've been using successfully at WP:COPYCLEAN. All true, what you say about finding the original source. It's tedious work. There are mechanical plagiarism detectors that I utilize, but they don't eliminate Wiki mirrors. Maybe someday we'll get one of our own that does. Even cutting out the mirrors we know about would simplify things enormously. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- A number of years ago, probably in the early days of the VCR, comedian Robert Klein was doing an HBO standup special. He "warned" people watching at home not to tape the show, as it was a copyright violation. He then went on to point out that that violation was on roughly the same level of illegality as "tearing a tag off your mattress". And as a practical matter, that's what the internet has done. I have seen occasional images which were protected from downloading, but generally that's not done. Youtube seems to have the right idea - you can view it but not download it (as far as I know). But text is usually written in text form rather than as an image, so technologically (though not legally) you can do anything you want with it. The courts might eventually have to settle question of whether the burden of protection is on the original poster - i.e. if he doesn't protect the text somehow, then he shouldn't complain that it gets proliferated. I suspect the law is far behind the technology on this issue. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- As long as we keep Wikipedia safe while the jurists sort it out, it's all good (from a copyright standpoint that is; the whole plagiarism thing is a different, much debated story). Personally, I think the policies in place do a very good job of demonstrating due diligence, and we've got some contributors who put a lot of time into enforcing them even though I know from past conversations that some of them actually support the abolition of intellectual property laws (or, at least, the radical overhaul and relaxation of them). --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- A number of years ago, probably in the early days of the VCR, comedian Robert Klein was doing an HBO standup special. He "warned" people watching at home not to tape the show, as it was a copyright violation. He then went on to point out that that violation was on roughly the same level of illegality as "tearing a tag off your mattress". And as a practical matter, that's what the internet has done. I have seen occasional images which were protected from downloading, but generally that's not done. Youtube seems to have the right idea - you can view it but not download it (as far as I know). But text is usually written in text form rather than as an image, so technologically (though not legally) you can do anything you want with it. The courts might eventually have to settle question of whether the burden of protection is on the original poster - i.e. if he doesn't protect the text somehow, then he shouldn't complain that it gets proliferated. I suspect the law is far behind the technology on this issue. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- When I first saw this thread my reaction was much like Neutral Homer's, & I almost posted something along those lines... but for some reason I sat on my hands & didn't. I'm glad of my silence: repeated copyright infringements does not do anyone any good, & AllStarEcho's best response would have been to say something like, "Oops, I did all of that early on when I didn't know any better. Sorry." And if fixing this got too stressful, take a lengthy break. Most of the regulars here have an otherwise positive opinion of AllStarEcho, & if he were to admit his mistakes, promise not to do it again, I suspect he'd be given another chance. But his ranting above about "wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking" doesn't help his case. (And before anyone thinks I'm without sin, I keep wondering when someone will start looking carefully at some of the first articles I wrote. Especially since many of them are practically identical to what I wrote 6 years ago. If that ever happens, I promise to try to handle that kind of examination with more grace.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- If they ever abolish copyright, my Wiki day will be a lot more fun. :) We are trying to organize this sort of thing. Dcoetzee made a program that surveys contributions, and we've been using successfully at WP:COPYCLEAN. All true, what you say about finding the original source. It's tedious work. There are mechanical plagiarism detectors that I utilize, but they don't eliminate Wiki mirrors. Maybe someday we'll get one of our own that does. Even cutting out the mirrors we know about would simplify things enormously. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- This kind of thing is potentially a very serious problem. I see that AllStar has been blocked, but that's just the tip of the copyright iceberg. I have seen various articles over time (by many editors) that "read like copyright violations", but how do you go about proving it? Thanks to endless sites parroting wikipedia, finding the original source can be very difficult. You take a suspicious-sounding phrase put it into Google, find hundreds of entries containing it, check each one to see if they are wikipedia parrots or not, and maybe you'll find the original. So you repair the article and hope that's reflected eventually in the mirroring sites. OK, that's 1 down, a few million to go. It's the proliferation that's really the problem - the same problem as with copyrighted images. Someday wikipedia might get sued over this kind of thing, if they haven't been already. But that's also just the tip of the iceberg. It is so incredibly easy to copy-and-paste on the internet, how can an author who publishes on the internet have any realistic expectation of it not being proliferated, regardless of his theoretical legal rights? This will be an interesting issue for the Supreme Court to tackle someday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Given that the user has extensively damaged Wikipedia by uploading hundreds of copyright violations over several years, which may take months of effort to clean up... given that he continues to remove warnings and templates regarding copyright... given that the user shows no remorse or inclination to change any of this behavior... given that he has said he has retired and has no interest in editing... and given that he turned his userpage into a terrifically offensive attack page against people who challenge him on any of his behavior... Given all this, I have blocked the user indefinitely. If he wants to unretire and promises not to copy-and-paste any more material from random web sources, then I will unblock him (or anyone else can). – Quadell (talk) 11:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- On a related note, User:Allstarecho/regularmaintained will be helpful in this cleanup. From this list, I've already identified Frank Frost as a direct copyvio of this. Frank | talk 12:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was a bit hasty on this one. Thanks to User:Voceditenore for pointing this out. Frank | talk 13:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- The source of that article is this NYT piece dated 1999. Cf our article. "Over the years, cigarettes and alcohol wore Frost down but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues: A Musical Pilgrimage to the Crossroads and Crossroads." NYT, "Cigarettes and alcohol wore Mr. Frost down over the years, but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues and Crossroads." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was a bit hasty on this one. Thanks to User:Voceditenore for pointing this out. Frank | talk 13:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Just out of interest are you now going to block yourself, or some other admin going to do it for the blatant and deliberate copyright violation above. You did get permission from the copyright holder to publish the above didn't you? After all there was no necessity for you to quote any of that, the links were there for anyone else to see the above text. --WebHamster 11:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. It's likely to be a long haul. We have a program we use at WP:COPYCLEAN (developed to clean up the problem at User:GrahamBould, I think) that lists the contributions of a user prioritized by size. Once that's run, I'll be opening an investigation tab at the copyright cleanup project to help structure investigation. All contributors most welcome. :D --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Good block. Sandstein 14:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Could someone with the buttons look at the header that comes up when editing Allstarecho's user & talk pages? Doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should stay in place. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 15:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant User:Allstarecho/Editnotice and User talk:Allstarecho/Editnotice. Don't know if these subpages stay for a blocked user or not. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 16:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wow; it's true what they say: you learn something new every day. Now I know how that's done :-) Anyway, I'm not sure what should be done there or why. Can someone show a policy or precedent regarding the editnotice and whether or not it should be removed? Allstarecho is not banned, as far as I know, and I'm not certain even that would warrant deletion. I think he could return at any time and be unblocked (OK, not in that order), and I'm not sure there's a need to dig into this right now. Frank | talk 17:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
This comes as a surprise; hadn't been watching the noticeboard in a day. If Allstarecho takes a few simple steps would support a negotiated unblock. Ball's in his court; door remains open. DurovaCharge! 20:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- On scanning this yesterday and the day before I thought "Ok, this can't be that bad, he's a longstanding editor in...". I stand suprised.
- Perhaps we should launch a sitenotice campaign to remind all editors about the copyright policy, and offer an amnesty period ("Just tell us about it now, we'll clean it up.").
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Given that the primary idea is to protect Wikipedia, I'd heartily support both...especially since we can have reason to hope that a contributor who self-discloses means to follow policy henceforth. With this particular editor, I think I'd be uncomfortable with anything short of supervision, given that he has demonstrated contempt for copyright in his editing and in his parting shot (or one of them, anyway). Perfectly fine to despise copyright laws. Using Wikipedia as a forum to demonstrate that, by pasting others' text here particularly when multiple editors have advised of policy, is flatly disruptive to a dangerous degree, no matter what constructive contributions he might also have made. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Having slept on the matter, there's more to be said. The 'open door' is in need of oil at the hinge. Allstarecho has taken an unusually strict stand about copyright compliance regarding another editor, and Allstarecho repeated that hard line about copyright toward the other editor as recently as last week. Until yesterday Allstarecho's position seemed worthy of respect, but now it is clear he was raising the bar very high for someone he disliked, while setting it unacceptably low for himself. Diffs are available upon request. If Allstarecho changes his mind about retirement I would support him, but in addition to the usual concerns that need to be worked out with a habitual copyright violator he will need to address this double standard--which occurs on the very same topic that caused his indefinite block. DurovaCharge! 15:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Evidently Allstarecho has requested unblocking already (and been declined). I remain concerned about his attitude towards copyright. Even after requesting unblocking, he said, "Most of it was a misunderstanding. I still don't see how statistical facts can be copyrighted. Facts are facts, period." I trust that anyone with knowledge of copyright law will recognize that there is plenty of copyrightable, creative text in such "statistical facts" as "Indian Summer Spiced Wheat Ale is a light profile American-style wheat ale spiced with Orange Peel and Coriander. The recipe uses a mix of wheat and pale barley. This beer is very lightly hopped to allow the spices to shine through. Clean fermenting yeast produce a very dry, crisp base to further accentuate the spices. The aroma has a distinct citrus note without being overly fruity", text which this contributor copied to Wikipedia from http://www.lazymagnolia.com/Indian_Summer.html (one of multiple pages copied from that site; and more statistical facts that can't be copyrighted from April of this year). This is only one of many, and the clean-up on this has only just been initiated at WP:COPYCLEAN. I have found duplicated text already in possibly up to a dozen articles, and I suspect that there will be much, much more. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed: all the usual concerns apply. In addition, the issue of double standards also needs to be addressed. If you have a list I could work from to lend a hand with the cleanup, let me know how I can help. DurovaCharge! 15:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, please. :) Anybody and everybody welcome. There is a section open for him at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Copyright_Cleanup/Contributor_surveys#Allstarecho. Helpful instructions are on the first subpage, Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Allstarecho. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed: all the usual concerns apply. In addition, the issue of double standards also needs to be addressed. If you have a list I could work from to lend a hand with the cleanup, let me know how I can help. DurovaCharge! 15:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
*I am going to ask that everyone stop and actually read the damned page you are linking to before calling it a copyvio. In reference to the Southwest Mississippi Community College page (that Durova has tagged), this link is supposed the copyvio. Nothing on that page is copied, verbatim or near verbatim, onto Southwest Mississippi Community College. That does not a copyvio make. I think we need to actually read the pages before calling a copyvio or not nominate them at all. I also believe that in the case listed in this post, we own Allstarecho an apology for saying it was a copyvio when it wasn't. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously the wrong link was posted. That was corrected almost immediately by Durova, but missed by me. Once corrected, I see, quite clearly, the copyvio. Sadly, I must agree with the community on this one. :( Delete away. My apologizes. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I can understand your initial confusion here, but I can't honestly support the idea that anyone who mistags something contributed by Allstarecho as a copyvio would owe him an apology. I can point out quite a bit of text that he has contributed that is. WP:AGF only works when there isn't "strong evidence to the contrary", and suspicion of his contributions is extremely reasonable at this juncture. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Before seeing the correct link I thought an apology was needed, but after seeing the correct link, I now see that an apology is not necessary. I stuck that part with the rest above. Again, my apologizes for the confusion caused by my struck post above, I will be more cautious and check the links more than once before posting. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I can understand your initial confusion here, but I can't honestly support the idea that anyone who mistags something contributed by Allstarecho as a copyvio would owe him an apology. I can point out quite a bit of text that he has contributed that is. WP:AGF only works when there isn't "strong evidence to the contrary", and suspicion of his contributions is extremely reasonable at this juncture. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously the wrong link was posted. That was corrected almost immediately by Durova, but missed by me. Once corrected, I see, quite clearly, the copyvio. Sadly, I must agree with the community on this one. :( Delete away. My apologizes. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Indefinite block, reset
Given that (1) this contributor has requested unblocking several times due to the blocking conditions set by User:Quadell, "Anyone may unblock if he wants to unretire and promises not to copy and paste copyrighted content into Wikipedia anymore", and that further evaluation has disclosed more significant infringement than Quadell may have known and that further conversation here suggests that there may be more involved in an unblock than that simple statement and that (2) this contributor persists in asserting (as discussed above and at his talk page) that he has not violated copyright because the text he has placed can't be governed by copyright, I have reset his block and left a note on his talk page explaining why. I would request that anyone considering unblocking him do so carefully in light of the fact that he has shown no remorse or even recognition that he has violated policy and was advised of (and ignored) policy many years ago. He may say that he will not place copyrighted text on the project, but if he believes that copyright cannot protect material such as he has placed, then he cannot be trusted to comply as he can't be trusted to recognize what is copyrighted and what is not. I do not consider myself involved in spite of his personal attack on me, as my only involvement with him has been in relation to these copyright infringements. But I bring it up here anyway for others to evaluate. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I feel bad saying this because I quite like Allstarecho, but support indef, especially in light of this rather worrisome edit summary: "...I am officially retired.. as this user anyway. ; bye bye."] I don't know if that means he will create sockpuppets, whether he already has an alternate account, both, or neither and it's just another parting shot. It may be worth a CU poking around in case socks do exist and are being used. This whole mess has been rather sad. //roux 04:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Could we wait a bit before boldfacing supports or opposes? Afterward he posted FYI, as far as socks, Ive posted under my IP a few times in my life but only cuz I forgot to log in. The latest was at Talk:Autofellatio, Friday. Transparency. So you can sleep better at night knowing I'm not running around socking up the Wiki.[5] We all know how this usually goes: an editor feels cornered, responds aggressively. Maybe doesn't even mean it and regrets it the next day, but by that time the ball is rolling and an indef converts to a siteban. Yes there are problems here: serious ones he needs to acknowledge. Wikitime can be brutal, though. DurovaCharge! 05:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Durova's right. I doubt anyone would support Allstarecho being unblocked without some preconditions, and perhaps he'll agree once he's calmed down and if he returns. AniMatedraw 10:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Let's build a path back with caveats that restoring someone else's copyvio edits is also problematic, intentional or not. I suggest too a bit of empathy as my wee brain recalls their home burned to ashes not too long ago and I believe they live in the US South, Mississippi, which likely is a major suckfest economicly. There may be some real life issues trimming the fuse short. This does not excuse everything but we can at least pretend that behind that heat is a passion for what they believe and that same energy that has generally been constructive here can still be directed toward our collective goals. In dominatrix-speak it's an attitude adjustment! -- Banjeboi 12:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I support civility and empathy, but in evaluating his constructiveness, I think we need to consider what has previously not been recognized: that a number of his articles have been built with content pasted in large or small scale from other sources. He may have been a stellar vandalism fighter, but he has been working outside policy for a long time even though he had every reason to know what policy was. This can't be put down to a short fuse, I'm afraid. Further, his ongoing talkpage dialog does not seem to me to demonstrate any awareness that he has created a problem or why. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I would refer you to Durova's comment at the top of this subsection; He was sufficiently aware of copyright issues to use it against another editors violation of policy. I have no clue as to his motives, since my knowledge of him comes from his interactions on the noticeboards, Jimbo's talkpage and AIV, and while he seemed fine (if somewhat "sparky") there the disregard - I can't think of any other phrase - for a core policy and the potential trouble for the project that might incur leaves me to feel that any return to editing will need be heavily monitored/mentored. Given his two responses in the thread I don't feel that he will willingly accept such conditions. It is a pity in respect of the good work he has done, but perhaps it would be best if the editor and WP remain estranged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- We're too willing to cut people loose, which neither addresses the problem nor helps WP:ENC. Clearly Allstar has lost his admin standing, but I'm with Durova's more, "Can he be rehabilitated?" line of query than with the calls of "Cut this cancer off". Situations where there are no signs of intentional malice or disruption call for firm kindness. -->David Shankbone 20:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- As pointed out above, he was notified of copyright policies years ago and as recently as a week ago removed without comment a note from another administrator pointing out the issue and requesting his assistance cleaning up. He has multiple times removed without comment warnings placed by Corensearchbot. These may not be signs of intentional malice, but they're troublesome. Further, Durova seems to suggest that he is familiar enough with copyright concept to hold another contributor to it, which would make it puzzling why he would not know himself that he cannot copy from newspapers and websites unless these are properly licensed or public domain. I do not say that Allstarecho cannot be rehabilitated, but I have asked that any administrator who unblocks him does so carefully in light of the circumstances and ensure that his statement that he won't infringe further recognizes what the problem is and how not to continue it. I have myself offered to supervise indef-blocked copyright problem editors and seen them go on to productive contributions, but it does take willingness and time on both sides. (I don't think that Allstarecho was ever an administrator, but perhaps I'm mistaken.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- A massive amount of good faith has been extended to AllStarecho. If you review the dialogue on his talk page, you'll find literally hours of my time just in calmly explaining to him what the situation is. It's a long, tedious dialog which would probably take more than an hour to piece together and read coherently, and took plenty longer than that to unfold. My point in collecting this (really just the tip of the iceberg) is that I would like it to be seen that there is recognition of the value of Allstarecho's past contributions and that there is definitely the presumption that he can come back and be productive within policy. It's really up to him. I remain of the belief that he can be a net positive to the project - if he wants to be. So far, he hasn't expressed that desire. Frank | talk 00:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- We're too willing to cut people loose, which neither addresses the problem nor helps WP:ENC. Clearly Allstar has lost his admin standing, but I'm with Durova's more, "Can he be rehabilitated?" line of query than with the calls of "Cut this cancer off". Situations where there are no signs of intentional malice or disruption call for firm kindness. -->David Shankbone 20:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I would refer you to Durova's comment at the top of this subsection; He was sufficiently aware of copyright issues to use it against another editors violation of policy. I have no clue as to his motives, since my knowledge of him comes from his interactions on the noticeboards, Jimbo's talkpage and AIV, and while he seemed fine (if somewhat "sparky") there the disregard - I can't think of any other phrase - for a core policy and the potential trouble for the project that might incur leaves me to feel that any return to editing will need be heavily monitored/mentored. Given his two responses in the thread I don't feel that he will willingly accept such conditions. It is a pity in respect of the good work he has done, but perhaps it would be best if the editor and WP remain estranged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I support civility and empathy, but in evaluating his constructiveness, I think we need to consider what has previously not been recognized: that a number of his articles have been built with content pasted in large or small scale from other sources. He may have been a stellar vandalism fighter, but he has been working outside policy for a long time even though he had every reason to know what policy was. This can't be put down to a short fuse, I'm afraid. Further, his ongoing talkpage dialog does not seem to me to demonstrate any awareness that he has created a problem or why. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Is now a good time to confess that I haven't taken any of my photographs? Seriously, this is a sad case and I hope everyone overlooks any recent outbursts by Allstar, and recognizes a long, productive, and honorable history. That the honor is being called into question undoubtedly raised his hackles, especially, as I suspect, he seems truly ignorant of the copyright issues involved. I'd prefer to see a more formal RFC-U, with or without his participation, with whatever has been found out. A gentle RFC-U. I think he's earned that rather than Trial by ANI. -->David Shankbone 17:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Including, amazingly enough, the ones with yourself in them. :) I've thought pretty highly of AllStarEcho, and I don't know what to make of all this. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's helpful to have agents :) -->David Shankbone 17:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Aha! So you outsourced the picture-taking. Just like Mathew Brady did. Sort of. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's helpful to have agents :) -->David Shankbone 17:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Including, amazingly enough, the ones with yourself in them. :) I've thought pretty highly of AllStarEcho, and I don't know what to make of all this. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Whether or not to leave Allstarecho indef blocked is a tricky question because it's difficult to discern his mental state and intentions. There are a lot of people here who are motivated to see him rehabilitated - and I have seen Moonriddengirl successfully rehabilitate long-term copyright violators before - but it's an arduous process of continuous review and education, and it starts with an admission of error and a willingness to learn, which Allstarecho has unfortunately not demonstrated. I might support for the time being an article-space block - no editing of articles, but discussion pages and project pages are okay. This would have to be enforced by monitoring. Dcoetzee 22:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was thinking something similar that they be allowed to continue there non-article building work - which seems fine - but that article building, mainly the Mississippi ones, needs to be done in userspace with each being launched once reviewed. In effect we would get the vetting needed, they would still get credit, and possibly DYK brownie points and when issues arise they can be dealt with in a less heated way from all perspectives since article space is not compromised. For existing articles they can post suggestions with sources to the atlkpages and others can add them in or review to allow ASE to do so once vetted. -- Banjeboi 02:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Benjiboi's suggestion sounds very reasonable to me. LadyofShalott 02:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me as well. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Benjiboi's suggestion sounds very reasonable to me. LadyofShalott 02:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- A ban from articles? I see the intention, but oh dear. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe just until he can be trusted again. Hell, I had to earn everyone's trust back after coming back from my indef block and in some cases I am still earning it. If we go with Benjiboi's idea, with the vetting of articles and ASE creating them in his userspace, I say give him 6 months of it. Then let him back in. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- First, I would only support such a move with indication from Allstarecho that he understands the issue. I don't see how mentorship could work without an open-minded approach, and so far I have only seen him defending his contributions as not copyrightable. Second, before such a measure can be enacted, an uninvolved contributor with a good understanding of copyright and time to evaluate these concerns would need to agree to review these edits. Third, I don't believe that a specific time would be helpful. For the sake of argument, presume that the problem here is difficulty grasping the distinction between uncopyrightable fact and copyrightable expression. If he still has this problem in six months, releasing him from mentorship would obviously be irresponsible. On the other hand, if he demonstrates in three months that he understands what can and cannot be used and shows an ability to paraphrase material without infringing copyright, continuing direct monitoring would make no sense. The purpose isn't punitive, but protective, and pre-approved article building should continue for whatever time it's needed. Finally, whatever person mentors him should ideally also be willing to look back in at some point after the restriction is lifted to ensure that the problem has not resumed. We can't presume that it will not when a contributor, any contributor, has continued pasting material into the project after having been told to stop. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think the concern is that we should be fostering good article writing behavior, and a ban from articlespace may be seen to foster, well, posting to ANI or XfD. The only way ASE is going to regain the trust of the community is through hard work and proven example that the same behavior has been corrected. I don't see a system of userspace-vetting-move working out; it's unduly restrictive on ASE to make good contributions under such terms, it's a waste of time for those who have to confirm his contribs, and it might not even satisfy everyone as of course someone who understands copyright (as the double standard situation suggests) will behave well when watched. If ASE can work without a net, then I think that'll carry weight, and this current indef block may necessitate that be on another Wikimedia project for a period of time. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 11:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- First, I would only support such a move with indication from Allstarecho that he understands the issue. I don't see how mentorship could work without an open-minded approach, and so far I have only seen him defending his contributions as not copyrightable. Second, before such a measure can be enacted, an uninvolved contributor with a good understanding of copyright and time to evaluate these concerns would need to agree to review these edits. Third, I don't believe that a specific time would be helpful. For the sake of argument, presume that the problem here is difficulty grasping the distinction between uncopyrightable fact and copyrightable expression. If he still has this problem in six months, releasing him from mentorship would obviously be irresponsible. On the other hand, if he demonstrates in three months that he understands what can and cannot be used and shows an ability to paraphrase material without infringing copyright, continuing direct monitoring would make no sense. The purpose isn't punitive, but protective, and pre-approved article building should continue for whatever time it's needed. Finally, whatever person mentors him should ideally also be willing to look back in at some point after the restriction is lifted to ensure that the problem has not resumed. We can't presume that it will not when a contributor, any contributor, has continued pasting material into the project after having been told to stop. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe just until he can be trusted again. Hell, I had to earn everyone's trust back after coming back from my indef block and in some cases I am still earning it. If we go with Benjiboi's idea, with the vetting of articles and ASE creating them in his userspace, I say give him 6 months of it. Then let him back in. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
If Allstarecho says (1) that he wants to unretire, (2) that he recognizes that what he did was wrong and won't do it again, and (3) that he's willing to be mentored by someone who's willing to spend the time looking through his contribs for violations, then sure, it'd be great to have him back. Tellingly, he hasn't agreed to any of the three, and he has been insulting and hostile to anyone who has suggested it. I also think he owes Moonriddengirl a pretty big apology for (among other things) calling her a "cunt", and I personally wouldn't unblock him unless he offers one. But that's just me -- others may find such incivility more tolerable that I do, I don't know. – Quadell (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Idea
I approached ASE with Banjeboi's idea of having ASE create articles in userspace and have them approved and moved to mainspace until he earns the community's trust back. I also offered to work with him via the mentor program. He could easily tell me to take a hike, but if he thinks this is a good idea (and granted I am not an admin), I think should consider it and let this good editor come back from a bad situation like others let me come back from my situation in 2008. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Apparent WP:COI issues at West Ridge Academy
I encountered this edit on Talk:West Ridge Academy while reviewing recent edits using Huggle, in which User:Good Olfactory addressed an IP editor who had expressed frustration about edits removed from the article (see here). There are some genuine issues with the article, such as the repeated addition of spurious categories, which I agree are problematic. But the gist of the reason behind the page protection seems to be edits such as this one, which adds sourced material about allegations about the school. I do understand that there are legitimate issues about the tone, but I have far too often seen editors and admins demand that reliably sourced material be removed and discussed at a talk page as a means of suppressing unflattering material regardless of the quality of sources. This may or may not be happening here, and I understand the frustration of the IP editors involved.
While it may be appropriate to semi-protect the article, it appears that User:Good Olfactory has a rather clear conflict of interest issue here. Good Olfactory has edited the article on no fewer than 45 occasions and has been actively involved in content disputes on this article. On the User:Good Olfactory page, he describes himself as "typically active in the areas of categorization and my mainspace edits primarily relate to religious topics (especially the Latter Day Saint movement)...".
As many of the contested edits involve efforts to connect the school to Mormonism, as User:Good Olfactory has expressed a strong interest in LDS-related subjects and as his edit history shows a deep and continuing interest in the subject, as Good Olfactory has edited this particular article a few dozen times and has been actively involved in content disputes in the article in question, it would appear that he has a WP:COI issue with this article and should not have unilaterally stepped in to protect the article. There are well over a thousand admins, and any one of the other 1,659 Wikipedia admins, most of whom are untainted by this conflict, could have been approached and been asked to attempt to address this issue with some measure of remove from this dispute.
Appropriate action should be taken to ensure that User:Good Olfactory steps away from using administrative powers while involved in what appears to be a rather clear conflict of interest violation and to ensure that further measures are taken in the event that any further such WP:COI violations take place. Alansohn (talk) 02:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Protection of the page was instituted to stop ongoing edit-warring (not involving me). If the perception of bias troubles Alansohn, I've no problem with lifting the protection and letting another admin decide to reinstate or not reinstate the protection. (In fact, I'm trying to gain assurances that the edit warring will stop, so I'll probably be lifting it shortly anyway.) This complaint could have easily been dealt with by a note on my talk page; I'm not sure why it needs to go to ANI. (Though it may have something to do with the fact that I've blocked Alansohn in the past. This is not the first time since I blocked him that relatively minor issues have been brought up here by Alansohn instead of with me personally.) (Incidentally, I was asked via email by another user to intervene, so my intervention wasn't "unilateral" and I was simply making an effort to assist a user who asked for help.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I understand that a personal attack is an effective means to attempt to deflect the issue, but the problem of abuse of administrative powers despite clear edit warring by admin has still not been addressed. Sadly, this is far from the first time that Good Olfactory has abused administrative powers to further his own agenda despite clear conflicts of interest. If only these perceived problems could have been addressed by contacting any of the hundreds upon hundreds of admins not directly involved in edit warring here, there would be no issue. Abuse of administrative privileges in this manner directly undercuts the legitimacy of these powers. Admins need to be held to an appropriately high standard in this regard, and this hardly passes the smell test. An appropriate warning to refrain from use of administrative powers in this article, accompanied by escalating action in the event of further problems, will likely address the problem here. Alansohn (talk) 04:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- As I said, it would have been both easier and appropriate to just let me know on my talk page that you were troubled by it. Not a big deal. I haven't personally attacked you, just expressed surprise at your reluctance to approach me about a concern through any forum except ANI. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I understand that a personal attack is an effective means to attempt to deflect the issue, but the problem of abuse of administrative powers despite clear edit warring by admin has still not been addressed. Sadly, this is far from the first time that Good Olfactory has abused administrative powers to further his own agenda despite clear conflicts of interest. If only these perceived problems could have been addressed by contacting any of the hundreds upon hundreds of admins not directly involved in edit warring here, there would be no issue. Abuse of administrative privileges in this manner directly undercuts the legitimacy of these powers. Admins need to be held to an appropriately high standard in this regard, and this hardly passes the smell test. An appropriate warning to refrain from use of administrative powers in this article, accompanied by escalating action in the event of further problems, will likely address the problem here. Alansohn (talk) 04:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I meant it would not have been a big deal to just ask me about this, where I could have easily responded to the concern by lifting the protection. I've done so now anyway as we're trying to make progress on the talk page. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
To be fair to Good Olfactory, I also suggested semi-protection as a result of some edits that appeared to be coming from the school, essentially replacing content with something that looked like it was ripped straight from an advertisement brochure. TallNapoleon (talk) 05:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- A big part of the problem with User:Good Olfactory's actions here and elsewhere is a "the ends justify the means" approach in which blatant abuses of administrative powers can be covered up and dismissed by claiming that it's simply "not a big deal" and by cleaning up the problems created by his disruptive points after the damage has already been done and the users involved have been thoroughly intimidated. And this is not the first time. While actively in the middle of an edit war, Good Olfactory protected the same article back in March (see here), and also failed to see the clear conflict of interest then. As someone who is clearly invested in LDS issues and articles with strong opinions on the matter and as someone who has previously been actively edit warring in this article, the question is not if some action was necessary to protect the article. The issues are why would an admin with the clearest possible conflict of interest abuse his administrative powers for the second time in the same article to reflect his personal bias on the subject? Why impose this disruption himself when it would have been "no big deal" to ask any one of hundreds upon hundreds of admins who wouldn't know a Mormon from a foreman who could have been approached on their talk page and asked to intervene without imposing User:Good Olfactory's biases on the entire community? All that was needed in response to a request for intervention from User:TallNapoleon was a response from Good Olfactory that there was no way he could properly get involved here and that a third-party with a small measure of neutrality should be approached. Alansohn (talk) 12:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok, so "there are some genuine issues with the article", and "it may be appropriate to semi-protect the article", the issue is with the person who applied the protection, even though that admin wasn't involved in the edit warring, and hadn't edited the article since March? --Kbdank71 14:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, this is the kind of baldersdash that makes editing Wikipedia so discouraging. Good's action of protecting the page was not an abuse of Administrative authority; there was edit warring and appropriate action was taken; end of story. The facts are: 1) there was edit warring, 2) Good was not involved, 3) Good semi-protected the page, 4) silly accusations through a misapplication of policies are made here, 5) Good has now removed the semi-protect, 6) edit warring has returned. I don't care what you Admins do, but get your act together collectively, cast aside these type of silly accusations that don't apply, and semi-protect the page again. Based upon this type of allegation no admin with expertise in a given topic could act as an admin on those topics...let's try not to be silly. Of course admins should act as an admin in their areas of expertise. A COI only exists if the admin herself/himself is involved.
- Alan, my advice is to stop stalking Good; it shows up very poorly on you. Just to be clear, I conflict with Good on almost all editing of religious articles; but this type of complaint has done nothing to protect Wikipedia, improve it, or improve the actions of admins.--StormRider 15:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm no apologist for admin abuse, but frankly there ISN'T ANY on this occasion. If Good had been actively involved in the ongoing edit war you might have a case but he wasn't and you don't. Commendation for Good for responding with positivity to this report - I can't fault their actions at all. Exxolon (talk) 16:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- As a collective reply to all those who support this abuse: There are a million circumstances under which administrative action may be appropriate. None of them involve circumstances in which the admin has a clear conflict of interest. While he had refrained from editing the article all the way since March 2009, he was actively involved in an edit war in this same article over a similar set of issues just ten weeks ago, providing no evidence that he has the appropriate distance or neutrality to take administrative action in this article. That the edit warring has restarted after the improper page protect was removed only demonstrates that the problem could have been resolved if any of Good Olfactory's admin supporters here, some who might have some neutrality in this particular edit war, might have been able to address the matter on their own without violation of Wikipedia policy in a matter in which Good Olfactory has been directly involved just weeks ago. As to the shameless personal attack from User:Storm Rider in an effort to distract from the violations here that have also been noted by User:ThuranX, I applaud your support for an admin who has taken abusive administrative action in direct support of your edit warring, but you can hardly be neutral in this matter. It reflects rather poorly on any editor for supporting such abuse that benefits your own edit warring and that could have been addressed as no big deal by any admin other than User:Good Olfactory without the clear bias and prior edit warring of his own in the article in question. Alansohn (talk) 16:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're just not getting it. THIS WAS NOT ABUSE. Admin abuse can be several things - if he'd blocked someone he was in dispute with, if he'd locked the article in his 'preferred' version. If he'd semi'd the article while in dispute with IP editors - then there'd be a case to answer. He might have a point of view about this article but his actions had nothing to do with his personal pov regarding this article - they were a perfectly correct attempt to stop the edit war which he was not involved with and encourage proper dispute resolution. Step away from the dead horse please Alan. Exxolon (talk) 18:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- It must be because it wasn't put in BOLD LETTERS before. As an admin you have a choice: You can edit war in an article or you can take administrative action in support of one side and call yourself objective. But you can't do both in the same article. Good Olfactory was actively edit warring just severl weeks ago, and then protected the article once he had imposed his position on the article. While he is not actively edit warring now, he has taken the same action to impose what is essentially the same version he pushed when he was edit warring. You can do one or the other, but not both. I look at this article and I clearly see Good Olfactory as an ardent edit warrior in this article. This horse is very much alive. If you want it dead, any neutral and objective admin would be able to readily deal with the article. It would be no big deal for Good Olfactory to ask any one of the more than 1,600 other admins, preferably one who hasn't been actively involved in removing sourced content from this particular article, to take a look and deal with whatever problems that may exists in the appropriately neutral fashion required by Wikipedia policy. P.S. Incidentally, you're also falling into the edit warring trap on this same article. Alansohn (talk) 19:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- We disagree on Good's actions - that's okay, I wasn't expecting to convince you. However your accusation that I'm "falling into the edit warring trap" is totally bogus. I'm reverting blatant NPOV violations - this counts as vandalism and isn't subject to edit warring rules or the 3RR rules. No reasonable editor would consider my 2 reversions of blatant POV insertion as "edit warring" as you do. Exxolon (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- It must be because it wasn't put in BOLD LETTERS before. As an admin you have a choice: You can edit war in an article or you can take administrative action in support of one side and call yourself objective. But you can't do both in the same article. Good Olfactory was actively edit warring just severl weeks ago, and then protected the article once he had imposed his position on the article. While he is not actively edit warring now, he has taken the same action to impose what is essentially the same version he pushed when he was edit warring. You can do one or the other, but not both. I look at this article and I clearly see Good Olfactory as an ardent edit warrior in this article. This horse is very much alive. If you want it dead, any neutral and objective admin would be able to readily deal with the article. It would be no big deal for Good Olfactory to ask any one of the more than 1,600 other admins, preferably one who hasn't been actively involved in removing sourced content from this particular article, to take a look and deal with whatever problems that may exists in the appropriately neutral fashion required by Wikipedia policy. P.S. Incidentally, you're also falling into the edit warring trap on this same article. Alansohn (talk) 19:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're just not getting it. THIS WAS NOT ABUSE. Admin abuse can be several things - if he'd blocked someone he was in dispute with, if he'd locked the article in his 'preferred' version. If he'd semi'd the article while in dispute with IP editors - then there'd be a case to answer. He might have a point of view about this article but his actions had nothing to do with his personal pov regarding this article - they were a perfectly correct attempt to stop the edit war which he was not involved with and encourage proper dispute resolution. Step away from the dead horse please Alan. Exxolon (talk) 18:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
OKAY guys, this goes to far. Instead of stopping this silliness you have encouraged it. User:Alansohn has now taken to carry on his tirade on the West Ridge Academy article. This is what happens when silliness is not stopped immediately and you guys allow this caliber of editor loose with the impression s/he is right. I have warned him to focus on improving the article and I expect you to stop him from continued harassment to Good or to me now given it appears he now wants to follow me around. Geez, I hate Wikipedia when things like this develop. --StormRider 19:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- CORRECT guys. This does go too far. After detecting administrative abuse by Good Olfactory I reported the abuse here and added the page to my watchlist in case any further problems arise. As well as seeing more edit warring by Storm Rider and other editors, I see a shamelessly uncivil personal attack from Storm Rider himself on the talk page. I responded. Now we have more incivility and personal attacks from Storm Rider himself. I hate when edit warriors attack others and see something wrong when those they attack respond with requests for some basic decency. While the edit warring for several days on this one article is bad enough, the personal attacks from User:Storm Rider are utterly unneeded. Alansohn (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your repeated usage of the term "abuse" is also bordering on a personal attack. You disagree with Good's actions? Okay. Not okay to repeatedly slam them as "abuse", "abusive" etc. That's not a civil way to categorise his actions. You'd probably get more positive responses if you got down off your high horse about this. Exxolon (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have blocked for 31 hours the IP registered to the Academy which keeps adding advertising copy. It's difficult to determine if additional action is needed. —EncMstr (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Comment from outside observer: It's not just blatant advertsising. In the last 24 hours they have reverted the page 9 times, each time re-adding [6] a blatant copy vio from here - Voceditenore (talk) 20:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Protection Policy is rather clear in indicating that "Administrators should not protect or unprotect a page to further their own position in a content dispute." While the argument has been made that Good Olfactory may not be actively edit warring in the article at the moment, he was involved in depth in pushing one side of the argument in an edit war just ten weeks ago. At that time, Good Olfactory made more than 40 separate edits to the article on March 18 alone, edit warring back and forth, culminating with this edit in which he protected the article in direct violation of his clear conflict of interest, locking the article at his preferred version. If this article protection were Good Olfactory's only violation of WP:COI he might have a shred of an argument to wiggle out of administrative measures. What triggered this report here, and the urgent call for appropriate action to deal with this problem, is that this is the second time in the same article that Good Olfactory has refused to respect the need for separating his personal biases on this article from his administrative powers in this one article alone. Alansohn (talk) 16:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yesterday, GO unprotected the article, and has stated he won't step in administratively further on it. Consensus would appear to show that he was stopping an edit war, nothing more. So, what "appropriate action" are you requesting? --Kbdank71 18:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Possible Copyright Issues
I'm about to go offline, but I noticed the contributions of Rickbrown9 (talk · contribs) and I was hoping someone with a bit more spare time could look at a few of his image uploads. Any help'd be great. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 10:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- The image File:MukundaGoswami.jpg would appear to be a cropped and resized version of this, which explains the artifacts. Another image, File:Butch-1.jpg is identical to the one here, only flipped and with a sepia filter. The light reflected on the photo matches that on the uploaded image. - Bilby (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Given File:ImNotTalking.ogg, File:ImNotTalking2.ogg and File:No-Survivors.ogg, I'd say there are two possibilities: 1) the uploads are all copyvios or 2) the uploader is Richard Shaw Brown. The user's edit pattern is strongly focussed on Brown's band, The Misunderstood. For the latter, since the recording contract probably would assign the rights, the mafiaa might give us an offer we can't refuse. MER-C 12:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- What does that make User:Rsbj66, whose user page says he is Richard Shaw Brown, but who stopped editing in April 2007? Lost password, perhaps? Ed Fitzgerald t / c 12:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's plausible. MER-C 12:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- After Rsbj66 stopped editing, most of the edits on Richard Shaw Brown were done by multiple IPs from 125.24.xxx.xx, which Geolocates to Bangkok. If this is him as well, than the vast majority of the edits on the article have been made by the subject of the article, which seems like it might be a bit of a problem. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 13:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've put notices about this discussion on Rsbj66's and Rickbrown9's talk pages, as well as a COI template. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 22:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Alleged abuse of admin powers by Stifle
Reopening: the page still needs to be unprotected. DurovaCharge! 22:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Trying to end a discussion after just a few hours is inappropriate and goes against WP:CONSENSUS. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
A controversial DRV was closed, saying it could be recreated, provbided work was done at the time.
Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_May_29
This is impossible, because Stifle has protected the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plot_of_Les_Mis%C3%A9rables&action=history
Surelly, using his admin powers to protect a page like that, to enforce a more extreme view thn the closer of the DRV - but a view he advocated for - is completely inappropriate. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Surely s/he will unprotect on request after seeing the amended and appropriate version of the article? –xenotalk 16:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see even a hint of admin abuse here. The DRV ended as "no consensus to overturn" and the page was protected as a redirect. If you wish to follow through with the second part of the DRV's result "Editors wishing to recreate this article should so in a way which substantially alters it from its pre-Afd state, making it ineligible for WP:CSD#G4", start an article in your userspace. --auburnpilot talk 16:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly, "no consensus to overturn" means "keep deleted". It should not be recreated in article-space until it can be shown to not fall under a speedy criteria. The DRV was very clear. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 17:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see even a hint of admin abuse here. The DRV ended as "no consensus to overturn" and the page was protected as a redirect. If you wish to follow through with the second part of the DRV's result "Editors wishing to recreate this article should so in a way which substantially alters it from its pre-Afd state, making it ineligible for WP:CSD#G4", start an article in your userspace. --auburnpilot talk 16:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's kind of telling that the user who undid the redirect is claiming that this protection is admin abuse. I don't think the protection is strictly necessary (it's not like anyone was edit warring in the face of the consensus; Stifle's protection was preemptive), but I'm wary of unprotecting it based on Shoemaker's Holiday's request with no draft in place. Mangojuicetalk 17:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see any abuse of Admin powers here, but I might not be the best person to ask at the moment. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sigh. Nice of Shoemaker's Holiday to notify me of this discussion. I don't think I have anything to answer for; if someone presents a draft of a new article, I'll either unprotect or suggest a new DRV. Stifle (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree, no abuse here. – Quadell (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- P.S. - if people aren't paying attention, it is obvious that Stifle was CoI'd from protecting the page. He voted to "keep as redirect". By protecting the page, he clearly protected to his preferred version. This is 100% abuse of admin tools and a desysop has happened in such cases. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Nothing here is actionable. Please move on to more approperiate venues and boards.
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ProofBecause two people above are making it clear that they are unable to see the elephant in the room that has been known about at ANI, AN, and RfA, lets just post it so we can rehash some old business. Now, let see Tan testify for himself (from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pedro/Archive_33#Hmm here):
Mind you, he thinks that he lied and cheated his way to adminship for the right reasons. What are some of those reasons? Well, inflaming situations and attacking some of our most valuable content editors to the point that they retire. I think it is obvious to everyone that Tan has overstepped his bounds and cost this encyclopedia far more than he can ever give. Anything short of putting himself for reconfirmation would be inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
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- I still see zero "proof" (the title of this subheading) that I lied, misrepresented myself, or otherwise broke any Wikipedia policy whatsoever. I see continuous personal attacks with zero evidence from Ottava. Apparently, the community wishes to ignore that; I will go with whatever is consensus here. However, I will not respond any further to these baseless allegations. If you wish to do anything formal, go right ahead and let me know about it on my talk page. I'm done here. Tan | 39 03:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- You can claim such, but there is a clear admittance that you manipulated and mislead Balloonman. What do you think "gaming the system" means by chance? Playing with words and weaseling with rhetoric does not mean you are innocent. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I still see zero "proof" (the title of this subheading) that I lied, misrepresented myself, or otherwise broke any Wikipedia policy whatsoever. I see continuous personal attacks with zero evidence from Ottava. Apparently, the community wishes to ignore that; I will go with whatever is consensus here. However, I will not respond any further to these baseless allegations. If you wish to do anything formal, go right ahead and let me know about it on my talk page. I'm done here. Tan | 39 03:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Peace, please
Shoemaker's Holiday announced his retirement today. He has contributed three featured articles, nearly fifty featured pictures, and is Wikipedia's most prolific contributor of featured sounds. He was the Wikimedia Foundation's best editor at restoring etchings and engravings, and he was WMF's only editor who digitally restored wax cylinder recordings. For copyright reasons, often the only license-free versions of important music are on wax cylinders, and for historic performers that's all we'll ever have. Because of Shoemaker's Holiday, Wikipedia's readers can not only read about Enrico Caruso but also hear Caruso sing; because of Shoemaker's Holiday, we can listen to John Philip Sousa's music--with Sousa himself conducting.
Can we please learn from this? And would someone please unprotect the deleted page? When two featured article contributors say they can get enough sources to justify notability I think we can trust them. Here's hoping some of the things that were posted above weren't really meant in earnest, but were expressions of frustration by people who--justifiably--thought they had earned more credibility than they were receiving. A few retractions and olive branches would be very timely. DurovaCharge! 22:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Did you know that that many or most of Sousa's Band's recordings were actually conducted by Sousa's assistant, Arthur Pryor? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Shoemaker's research was excellent with that sort of thing. If you locate any flaw in his documentation please raise it at featured sound talk and ping my user talk page. DurovaCharge! 03:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If he is a good and reasonable contributor, and if he still believes in wikipedia, then he should come back and try to put the general interests of wikipedia first, and try to ignore specific setbacks. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Bugs, you're a baseball guy. A good coach doesn't use his pitcher every game--especially not after a muscle strain. That might win a couple games but it'll burn out the arm. Same logic here. Give the fellow some water and a pat on the back, even if he lost his cool and shouted at the umpire. He's still a good player. DurovaCharge! 03:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I was working on saying and forgot to add that key point: that he should give himself a few days off, or whatever time is needed. Or think of Brett Favre, who has "retired" twice, un-"retired" once, and may be about to un-"retire" again. Time off can be good. It can revive the hunger. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Shoemaker isn't the kind of editor who retires every month. I'm really worried here. Let's be gracious and show appreciation for his good work, rather than apply additional pressure. DurovaCharge! 04:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- No pressure. He should take his time and decide what's best. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Shoemaker isn't the kind of editor who retires every month. I'm really worried here. Let's be gracious and show appreciation for his good work, rather than apply additional pressure. DurovaCharge! 04:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I was working on saying and forgot to add that key point: that he should give himself a few days off, or whatever time is needed. Or think of Brett Favre, who has "retired" twice, un-"retired" once, and may be about to un-"retire" again. Time off can be good. It can revive the hunger. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Bugs, you're a baseball guy. A good coach doesn't use his pitcher every game--especially not after a muscle strain. That might win a couple games but it'll burn out the arm. Same logic here. Give the fellow some water and a pat on the back, even if he lost his cool and shouted at the umpire. He's still a good player. DurovaCharge! 03:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If he is a good and reasonable contributor, and if he still believes in wikipedia, then he should come back and try to put the general interests of wikipedia first, and try to ignore specific setbacks. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Shoemaker's research was excellent with that sort of thing. If you locate any flaw in his documentation please raise it at featured sound talk and ping my user talk page. DurovaCharge! 03:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Did you know that that many or most of Sousa's Band's recordings were actually conducted by Sousa's assistant, Arthur Pryor? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've unprotected as pages should not be preemptively protected. Starting with "admin abuse" was perhaps not the best way to initiate this request - WP:RFUP would have been a better venue if Shoemaker was seeking a neutral opinion on the propriety of the protection. –xenotalk 23:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your first paragraph, Durova, is frankly meaningless. It doesn't matter if somebody has never written a featured article or has more featured stars than anybody else. When an article is deleted, and a deletion review confirms that there is no consensus to overturn the original result, the next step for somebody wanting to create that article is userspace. All the stars in the world do not earn you or anybody else special treatment. This entire episode is drama for drama's sake. --auburnpilot talk 23:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Quite the contrary - DRV are supposed to be weighed by quality of the statements, not quantity. We are not a democracy. Those that produce featured content who are weighing in to state that they will do something are given more weight. We are an encyclopedia first and foremost. Those that create content are given privileges because that is our main priority. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously this situation could have been handled better by several people. Our shared mission, though, is to build an encyclopedia. This person's departure leaves the site poorer in valuable content skills that no one else has. Content work doesn't earn someone tickets to misbehave deliberately, yet his actions seem to stem from frustration rather than malice. Shoemaker's Holiday did major contributions in technical media few editors understood, and the site's consensus model doesn't handle that well: he often got the brush-off undeservedly. Let's learn from this and be better at listening to productive people who bring rare skills. DurovaCharge! 23:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Quite the contrary - DRV are supposed to be weighed by quality of the statements, not quantity. We are not a democracy. Those that produce featured content who are weighing in to state that they will do something are given more weight. We are an encyclopedia first and foremost. Those that create content are given privileges because that is our main priority. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- What is to be done about Stifle's protection will be up to arb com, I suppose, for use abuse of admin powers in a field where every knows he is deeply committed. It is every bit as bad as if someone with my views had personally reverted the deletion review close. I do acknowledge, however, that he expressed above his willingness to unprotect, or relist at DRV . Shoemaker did quite right in the manner in which he worked on the article, and was right to come here. This was not a routine matter for RFPP, this was blatant abuse by an administrator. and Shoemaker's departure is something to held against Stifle, and equally against those who defend him here. I am equally concerned about the closing of that DRV, for Sceptre as a non-admin had no business closing that AfD, especially as he did it via G4, which he as a non admin can suggest, but not actually delete under. The only possible result for a DRV in circumstances like that was relisting. That it was closed without any reason given for why that matter was ignored was not helpful of the closer. But even more than dealing with Stifle, we need to deal with get Shoemaker back. DGG (talk) 00:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Somewhat related ,but user:ChrisO gave up his admin bits today as well. His last edit was to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Blacketer controversy. seicer | talk | contribs 01:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Legal threats on talk page of Taleb
Hi! I would like an end of the legal threats (direct or indirect) made on the following talk page Talk:Nassim Nicholas Taleb. See for example [[7]]. It would be very helpful if some admin can explain the policies of WP:LEGAL, and how you should proceed if you want to take legal action against Wikimedia foundation or some contributor. Ulner (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I dropped a standard {{uw-legal}} on the users talk page as i agree that this is likely an implied threat. I leave it up to the admins to handle this further - also, you might want to give him a notice that you started this ANI discussion as well. Its just good form to do so :) Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 17:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks! Ulner (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- While not considered a (blockable) legal threat by the community, I bring to everyone's attention the User:IbnAmioun userpage and the intent of this user to contact the WMF office (see the edit summaries on [8] and [9]). Judging by the content on the userpage, this editor is editing with a clear COI. MuZemike 17:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks! Ulner (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, See the comments in the harassment charge I raised. The COI is resolved as I only get involved to defend the Taleb family against stalking and harassment, simple self-defense (no updating, etc.). I filed a complaint of stalking harassment against a living person. I would like it to be handled the right way please. IbnAmioun (talk)! —Preceding undated comment added 22:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC).
2 Skinnee J's and Andyaction
Andyaction (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who has admitted he is/was a member of the band 2 Skinnee J's (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been advised that he has a conflict of interest, but insists on inserting unsourced material, even though advised to provide sources, has also inserted point of view "statements" here [10], here [11], here [12] and here [13]. He persists in posting sarcastic comments on the user talk pages of Chiliad22 and Jezhotwells. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. Politely made aware of WP's guidelines, but chose to ignore them. Blatant, inappropriate COI editing and incivility. ~PescoSo say•we all 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
User:WFLonTVS
WFLonTVS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Enthusiastic spamming. User account suggests connection with the site. Disembrangler (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- No indication that user has been warned of policy violation. KuyaBriBriTalk 20:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Category disruption
68.198.119.123 (talk · contribs) is going across dozens (possibly hundreds) of articles about fictional characters, adding Category:Film characters. I posted a note on the user's talk page explaining that a vast majority of these articles are already categorized in more specific subcategories (ie. Category:Science fiction film characters) and asking him/her to stop applying the category indiscriminately, instead checking first to see if a more specific subcat is already applied (& if not, to apply a more specific subcat instead of the generic "Film characters"). The user's activity has not abated in the slightest, despite a warning and an additional request to stop with a request to read WP:CAT. I don't have the time to undo all of the edits myself, and the user shows no sign of stopping. Messages seem to be ignored, so unfortunately I think the only solution may be blocking and mass-reverting. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just gave them a 15 minute block to put a stop to it and try to get them to talk to you.
- Please WP:AGF and discuss with them on their talk page some more, not just template warnings etc. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- FWIW I only used 1 template warning. I wrote 3 separate specific messages myself explaining the situation & asking them to stop, but still no response and no slowdown in activity. If you'll read my messages, particularly the first, I think you'll see that I did AGF, but there's not much else I can do when the user doesn't respond to any messages. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
BJAODN
I was just browsing through some old AFDs and saw a few mentions of BJAODN. I typed it into the search bar and saw that the page does not exist, but that WP:BJAODN redirects to WP:Silly Things. Since I'm sure I'm not the only user who's ever tried to get to a "WP:" page without typing in the prefix (or not realizing it is a "WP:" page), I thought I'd create a direct redirect to Silly Things. Unfortunately the page has been creation protected due to numerous deletions and restorations in 2006 and 2007, so I could not so it. Would an admin mind terribly creating BJAODN as a redirect to WP:Silly Things? I just think it would make things a bit more convenient for new and forgetful users (like me for the latter), and it would look a bit nicer than seeing a creation protection template. I understand that WP:Silly Things is itself only maintained for historical purposes, but it would still make it that little bit easier for newer users who may hear of it and want to see what the page entails. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think these days WP:CNRs aren't very much in favour. –xenotalk 20:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Xeno is correct. That would be a cross-namespace redirect and so far, consensus has always been against creating new such redirects... SoWhy 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks for the info; I wasn't aware of that. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Xeno is correct. That would be a cross-namespace redirect and so far, consensus has always been against creating new such redirects... SoWhy 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Legal threats
- Blondie0833 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Got some legal threats from this user on my talk page about us "adding material and information" to Crieff Highland Games. - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- For reference, there was indeed some unpleasant material in the history of Crieff Highland Games. I deleted the history (twice, it went back further than I thought) earlier this evening. Doesn't excuse the pointless legal threats, but worth us keeping 'em peeled. ➲ redvers throwing my arms around Paris 21:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- 82.69.26.149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to be the only source of the "unpleasant material"; the IP seems to be fairly stably assigned, so to my mind should either be blocked or given a stern warning. I'd do it myself, but I live too close to Crieff for comfort. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Jehochman and David Boothroyd censorship
User:Jehochman is preventing editors from working on David Boothroyd (aka former arb Sam Blacketer) in userspace (on my user page and most recently at User:JoshuaZ/David Boothroyd) despite the existence of multiple reliable sources from the British press addressing the controversy. He has suggested he will block anyone who includes the material and will only allow selectively restored versions of the Boothroyd article that do not mention his Wikipedia controversy. Coverage in the British national press includes:
- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191474/Labour-councillor-David-Boothroyd-caught-altering-David-Camerons-Wikipedia-entry.html
- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wikipedia-sentinel-quits-after-using-alias-to-alter-entries-1698762.html
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/26/wikipedia_westminster_councillor/
Jehochman is now clearly dedicated to preventing any development or discussion in spite of reliable sources. This censorship must end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TAway (talk • contribs) 21:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- This has already been through three AFDs (1, 2, 3 with 2 and 3 closed as delete), one very lengthy DRV (Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 May 27#David Boothroyd). All have been rooted in extreme BLP concerns, which has led to its recent deletions, salting, and DRV. Please do not throw the word "censorship" around, especially when the intent is to prevent and negative unsourced information from being added to the userfied copy. MuZemike 21:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- With 2 and 3 both having been closed after almost no discussion by Jehochman. This is not about preventing unsourced information -- all the information is sources -- but protecting a former Arb and Wikipedia's credibility. The media has covered him on other issues, they are now covering his Wikipedia activities, and we even use Boothroyd's election guide as a reliable source in over 700 Wikipedia articles. The media coverage is there, and this is censorship. TAway (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is at least the appearance that what's being protecting isn't BLP concerns, but Wikipedia's rep. The story is out, in reliable sources, the only question is about notability, not verifiability. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 22:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes - and isn't it odd how long we had an article on David Boothroyd BEFORE this controversy broke? The article survived the first AfD, then was bought two more times in rapid succession in violation of WP:NOTAGAIN. "Censorship" isn't quite the right word - but it closely resembles a whitewash. Snarfies (talk) 22:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is at least the appearance that what's being protecting isn't BLP concerns, but Wikipedia's rep. The story is out, in reliable sources, the only question is about notability, not verifiability. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 22:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- With 2 and 3 both having been closed after almost no discussion by Jehochman. This is not about preventing unsourced information -- all the information is sources -- but protecting a former Arb and Wikipedia's credibility. The media has covered him on other issues, they are now covering his Wikipedia activities, and we even use Boothroyd's election guide as a reliable source in over 700 Wikipedia articles. The media coverage is there, and this is censorship. TAway (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Jayron32 has userified the article to User:JoshuaZ/David Boothroyd. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- After userification, Jehochman selectively re-deleted any versions noting the Wikipedia controversy. He also threatened that any re-creation that included the Wikipedia controversy was a "potentially a blockable action." TAway (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Correct - repeatedly re-creating deleted material is blockable, especially when it involves BLP concerns. I'm unsure what the problem is here. Black Kite 22:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- How is it restoring "deleted material" when the new sources are appearing after Jehochman's inappropriate speedy deletions? Why is it that the article was immediately speedied after Boothroyd resigned from ArbCom after years of existing, then deletion is accepted as the "status quo" when the media picks up on the scandal? He has salted an article and blacklisted an entire issue under threat of ban regardless of how it develops and continues to appear in the media. That is censorship. TAway (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Correct - repeatedly re-creating deleted material is blockable, especially when it involves BLP concerns. I'm unsure what the problem is here. Black Kite 22:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- as the references accumulate, the material is no longer deleteable. I have respect for Sam for his work here, but neither he nor anyone is actually helped by censorship. That he was an admin here is relevant to his possible outside notability. Jehochman is operating beyond the limits of consensus here. DGG (talk) 23:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- After userification, Jehochman selectively re-deleted any versions noting the Wikipedia controversy. He also threatened that any re-creation that included the Wikipedia controversy was a "potentially a blockable action." TAway (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Is it true that there was an article on David Boothroyd before the controversy? If so, for how long? ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes. And David Boothroyd effectively wrote it.
The article that was created in article space was a simple copy and paste, by an editor without an account, of the autobiography that User:Dbiv had had on xyr user page since 2004-03-31. M. Boothroyd didn't write xyr autobiography in article space, and nominated the copy and paste for deletion in the article's second ever edit. The only significant subsequent expansion of the article came from an IP address assigned to Westminster City Council. If that wasn't M. Boothroyd himself, it was someone who was using M. Boothroyd's autobiography as xyr source, because it gave that autobiography as an external link in the edit. Uncle G (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The article would be deletable with or without the Wikipedia scandal - it isn't censorship to say someone isn't notable, nor is it censorship to argue that involvement in one significant event (related to Wikipedia or not) doesn't change that essential fact. He wasn't notable at all before, and the scandal qualifies as his 1BE. I don't think it is Jehochman that is overly focused on the scandal element here; its the folks who insist on recreating this article only to focus on the scandal element of it who need to find other work to do. Nathan T 00:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There shouldn't be an article on Boothroyd or any other marginally notable living person until Wikipedia implements an effective mechanism for protecting such articles from malicious editing. Cla68 (talk) 00:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- So consensus was that he was notable enough for an article until there was substantial coverage of his getting caught sock puppeteering and violating Wikipedia's integrity by engaging in conflict of interest edits? This is fascinating. I move that anyone encouraging this kind of policy violating behavior should be put up for recall. We can't have this kind of censorship and bias on Wikipedia especially not from Admins and ARbcom member. It fosters rot right at the core of our trustworthiness and undermines the integrity of Wikipedia as a quality information source. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- That of course presupposes that there isn't already rot right at the core. --WebHamster 01:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, that was not the consensus. The first AFD discussion really didn't apply our primary notability criterion at all. No rationale for keeping makes any mention of reliable sources. We kept the article because it satisfied one of the other, secondary, notability criteria that we had at the time: an arbitrary number related to book readership.
I suggested a complete rewrite from reliable sources, but that didn't happen. In retrospect, that could well have been because there weren't actually any to be had. The source of all of the content was, indirectly, M. Boothroyd documenting himself, throughout the entire life of the article, and the second AFD discussion can well be regarded as doing the right thing, in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines on reliability and independence of sources, albeit four years after the subject himself first requested the right thing to be done. Uncle G (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's interesting because I'm finding lots of sources that discuss his political activities before his indiscretions were covered very substantially. I'm also finding he was VERY active in working on political subject including some that are very negative in tone about Conservative politicians. Where is the accountability? Where is the investigation and clean up that needs to be done? Do we know all the sock accounts he used? Have we asked if there are more? Who knew what when? Are we to believe that Arbcom was completely in the dark about his true identity? Stop trying to sweep this under the rug and let's root the rot out. If we spend half the time trying to make things right that we do trying to cover up the impropriety, maybe we wouldn't have this problem all the time. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It doesn't look good to make wild and foolish accusations of sweeping things under a rug when people are doing nothing more than straightforwardly answering your questions. If we'd spent the effort to make things right, by the way, the copy of the autobiography wouldn't have stood in article space for four years, based upon nothing except what the subject claimed about himself. That is what would have been right. Uncle G (talk) 02:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's interesting because I'm finding lots of sources that discuss his political activities before his indiscretions were covered very substantially. I'm also finding he was VERY active in working on political subject including some that are very negative in tone about Conservative politicians. Where is the accountability? Where is the investigation and clean up that needs to be done? Do we know all the sock accounts he used? Have we asked if there are more? Who knew what when? Are we to believe that Arbcom was completely in the dark about his true identity? Stop trying to sweep this under the rug and let's root the rot out. If we spend half the time trying to make things right that we do trying to cover up the impropriety, maybe we wouldn't have this problem all the time. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- So consensus was that he was notable enough for an article until there was substantial coverage of his getting caught sock puppeteering and violating Wikipedia's integrity by engaging in conflict of interest edits? This is fascinating. I move that anyone encouraging this kind of policy violating behavior should be put up for recall. We can't have this kind of censorship and bias on Wikipedia especially not from Admins and ARbcom member. It fosters rot right at the core of our trustworthiness and undermines the integrity of Wikipedia as a quality information source. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- TAway appears to be a sock puppet account or somebody with an axe to grind. The matter of deletion was dealt with at WP:DRV. It is not proper to continue badgering to get one's way against consensus. I hope that TAway stops disrupting Wikipedia to make a point before somebody else blocks them. They did not notify me of this thread. Apparently. Their goal is to stir up drama, not to resolve a problem. Jehochman Talk 00:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not a sock puppet and I have no axe to grind. I simply stumbled upon this mess when commenting upon a different mess after finding this board recently. It appears to ME anyways that this is not about protecting a BLP, but is a CYA for Wikipedia. From what I can gather, Boothroyd's article had existed for several years before this last bit of trouble. How does it become deleteable only after it's discovered that Boothroyd had managed to somehow attain a position of trust and power on the project, and then abused that power using sock puppets? The situation -- and Boothroyd -- have been dealt with in reliable sources. Why is this even an issue? It seems obvious that the article belongs on the project. Unitanode 02:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- To be clear, the above regarding my not being a sock puppet was in regards to Jehochman's apparent ad hominem against the originator of this thread. Unitanode 02:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The reality is that it was deletable right from the start, had we applied our sourcing policy properly at the time of the first AFD discussion. But we didn't. We applied a notability criterion that we no longer have, and the existence of what was effectively an unsourced autobiography in article space for four years is an example of why that criterion, and others like it, were and are bad ideas. Uncle G (talk) 02:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever the reality of the policy issues, this bears the distinct odor of a coverup. I'm not well-versed in the ins-and-outs of policy here, so I'm commenting simply on the appearance of things. Unitanode 02:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then you are creating confusion, and are not being helpful to the process of writing an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia editors, at least, should be capable of getting the facts straight in this affair. Look what happens when one doesn't. TAway has created an entire house of cards in this section predicated upon false information about when M. Boothroyd nominated the article for deletion and what it was that Jenochman deleted from the userfied article. The consequence is that xyr repeated protestations and accusations here look rather silly when compared to the actual MediaWiki logs and edit histories. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're being something of a bully with your accusations of "not being helpful to the encyclopedia." My contention is that the continued removal of any reference to Boothroyd, when he has been prominently featured in several reliable sources now, has whiffs of a CYA by those with much more power on this project. Your accusations notwithstanding, all I care about is whether or not the encyclopedia is comprehensive and accurate. Unitanode 12:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- No-one is bullying you, and that mischaracterization isn't helpful, either. The fact remains that "commenting simply on the appearance of things" is not helpful to the process of writing an encyclopaedia. Stick to the facts, to what the edit histories and logs actually say, and to the policies. Don't build and encourage fantasies based upon "appearance", such as the one that you put forward above based upon the false notion that the article "became deletable". They waste an awful lot of everyone's time. If anything, entirely the reverse of your notion is true: The article, being based upon nothing but autobiography, was deletable for almost four years, and it is only now that it is possibly, as DGG points out above, becoming not deletable. Uncle G (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Appearances are important, whatever you may think. And your characterizing people as being "not helpful to the encyclopedia" appears to be bullying, whatever you may intend it to be. Boothroyd is now notable, and deleting and salting the target page appears untoward, and looks like a CYA move. My saying so is not unhelpful in any way. People disagreeing with your take doesn't make them unhelpful, by the way. It just means we disagree about the importance of the appearance of things. I think that the appearance of things is quite important. Interestingly, and tangentially, the Supreme Court of the United States seems to agree with that view as well. Not that what SCOTUS thinks really matters here, I just found it interesting that they don't simply discard the appearance of impropriety. Unitanode 17:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- No-one is bullying you, and that mischaracterization isn't helpful, either. The fact remains that "commenting simply on the appearance of things" is not helpful to the process of writing an encyclopaedia. Stick to the facts, to what the edit histories and logs actually say, and to the policies. Don't build and encourage fantasies based upon "appearance", such as the one that you put forward above based upon the false notion that the article "became deletable". They waste an awful lot of everyone's time. If anything, entirely the reverse of your notion is true: The article, being based upon nothing but autobiography, was deletable for almost four years, and it is only now that it is possibly, as DGG points out above, becoming not deletable. Uncle G (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're being something of a bully with your accusations of "not being helpful to the encyclopedia." My contention is that the continued removal of any reference to Boothroyd, when he has been prominently featured in several reliable sources now, has whiffs of a CYA by those with much more power on this project. Your accusations notwithstanding, all I care about is whether or not the encyclopedia is comprehensive and accurate. Unitanode 12:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then you are creating confusion, and are not being helpful to the process of writing an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia editors, at least, should be capable of getting the facts straight in this affair. Look what happens when one doesn't. TAway has created an entire house of cards in this section predicated upon false information about when M. Boothroyd nominated the article for deletion and what it was that Jenochman deleted from the userfied article. The consequence is that xyr repeated protestations and accusations here look rather silly when compared to the actual MediaWiki logs and edit histories. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever the reality of the policy issues, this bears the distinct odor of a coverup. I'm not well-versed in the ins-and-outs of policy here, so I'm commenting simply on the appearance of things. Unitanode 02:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Just for the sake of comparison.. the political office held by Boothroyd in the UK is on par with a US "city councilman" - Apart from the bad press for getting caught with "wiki-fingers" (pardon the bad pun).. I don't see how he qualifies for an article. The fact that it was here before just means we have a huge problem with borderline BLPs that noone bothers to read. - and we already knew that. If we had an article for every US city councilman caught in a compromising position - we'd really be screwed. --Versageek 02:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, the problem of the article existing before is that AFD didn't come to the right conclusion the first time around, because we applied a bad notability criterion. It has been partially addressed by the fact that we don't have that particular criterion any more, but constant vigilance is required to ensure that we don't slip back into applying such faulty notability criteria at AFD, and don't formulate such criteria. Uncle G (talk) 02:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The article clearly passes the GNG guidelines based on very substantial coverage in numerous reliable sources. It was borderline before this incident, but there's no question now. There's coverage of his activities as a politician, coverage of his activities in private enterprise it look like, and there's now quite a bit of coverage of his subterfuge in editing under aliases against our policies as he sat on our highest administrative body. We are a major information source, we aren't censored, and we shouldn't pretend that he's non-notable now to hide the truth. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Before this incident it was not borderline. It was an unsourced autobiography, and should really have been deleted alongside the other unsourced autobiographies that we delete all of the time here. The subject even asked us to delete it. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As per precedent, and possibly a guideline (can't find one at the moment, but I think one does cover this issue), the wish of a subject of an article for the article to be kept or deleted is irrelevant. AdmiralKolchak (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's certainly true, because an editor is not allowed to own an article. The real question is whether the article should have existed in the first place, regardless of who wrote it. What I'm seeing here among some of those pushing for keeping it, is as coatracking for criticism of wikipedia. There's already an article on criticism of wikipedia, and that's where this situation belongs, if anywhere. It's likely nothing more than a blip in the real life of the subject. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Without making comment as to this article, this can depend on the level of notability. We now and then do delete BLPs whose topics are at the very edge of notability if the subject asks for this to be done in a verifiable way. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. AdmiralKolchak (talk) 14:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Without making comment as to this article, this can depend on the level of notability. We now and then do delete BLPs whose topics are at the very edge of notability if the subject asks for this to be done in a verifiable way. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, it was autobiography, without independent and reliable sources, and the subject asked us to do what, in accordance with our content and deletion policies, we should really have done at the time. AFD came to the wrong result, and that wrong result stood for four years. The arguments being made by two editors, that that wrong result somehow proves notability, when there was no evidence presented either at that first AFD discussion or in the intervening three and a bit years that multiple reliable and independent sources covering this subject in depth exist (because, as can be seen if one actually reads what is cited below, they did not exist), which is the definition of notability, are clearly fallacious arguments. The existence of an unsourced (in effect) autobiography for four years only demonstrates that AFD went wrong. It doesn't demonstrate notability during that time, and both that thesis, and the further thesis (also propounded) that the subject was notable and now is not notable, are predicated upon a falsehood. (As DGG points out above, if anything entirely the reverse is true.) Uncle G (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- For those of us too lazy to look up what actually happened, but not lazy enough to refrain from repeating misinformation:
- WP:Articles for deletion/David Boothroyd "I am nominating this article about myself for deletion as I don't think I make the notability criteria (although possibly verging on them). However I reserve the right to become notable in the future. David | Talk 22:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)" KEEP
- WP:Articles for deletion/David Boothroyd (2nd nomination) "Non-notable, lack of sourcing. Does not meet our present notability standards for inclusion as a WP:BLP. Last AFD was nearly four years ago. rootology/equality 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)" DELETE
- WP:Articles for deletion/David Boothroyd (3rd nomination) "The individual does not meet our criteria for inclusion. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)" DELETE
- For those of us too lazy to look up what actually happened, but not lazy enough to refrain from repeating misinformation:
- That's certainly true, because an editor is not allowed to own an article. The real question is whether the article should have existed in the first place, regardless of who wrote it. What I'm seeing here among some of those pushing for keeping it, is as coatracking for criticism of wikipedia. There's already an article on criticism of wikipedia, and that's where this situation belongs, if anywhere. It's likely nothing more than a blip in the real life of the subject. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As per precedent, and possibly a guideline (can't find one at the moment, but I think one does cover this issue), the wish of a subject of an article for the article to be kept or deleted is irrelevant. AdmiralKolchak (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Before this incident it was not borderline. It was an unsourced autobiography, and should really have been deleted alongside the other unsourced autobiographies that we delete all of the time here. The subject even asked us to delete it. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- --Hans Adler (talk) 16:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Administrative action v. outcome
Actually there are two separate questions: whether the article was deleted correctly and whether Jehochman's post-deletion actions were appropriate. The complaint regarded Jehochman's actions, not the deletion itself. So let's break this down:
- The poster lists three sources and calls them reliable: The Register, Daily Mail, and The Independent. Would an editor who knows British periodicals please weigh in?
- What is our general practice on userspace recreations of courtesy deleted biographies?
- The poster asserts He has suggested he will block anyone who includes the material and will only allow selectively restored versions of the Boothroyd article that do not mention his Wikipedia controversy. Yet no the poster provides no diff of this assertion. If Jehochman actually did suggest that blocks would be forthcoming, we need clear answers to the first two questions.
- If at least one of those three sources is reliable, and if userspace recreations are allowable in this situation, and if Jehochman selectively deleted that news and threatened blocks--then a problem exists. Otherwise there's probably little problem, except for one thing:
This issue is developing news, and arguably a reputation management issue. Jehochman is a reputation management professional who appears to have acted boldly without requesting the review and assistance of fellow administrators at the admin boards. It wouldn't be good to see this spin out of control with claims of 'coverup', and if mud gets thrown it might possibly stick. So respectfully requesting that Jehochman seek community consensus before taking further action. DurovaCharge! 03:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no doubt that the Mail, the Register and the Independent qualify as reliable sources. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 04:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- You make some good points, but let's be clear. This is NOT just developing news. This is a subject we've long had an article on, who has been covered in the media for years. There has recently been a major surge in coverage due to policy violating behaviors that are also unethical for a politician. So he's under fire. Not only are we subject to allegations of a cover-up, so far we are guilty of one. All of a sudden the subject was no longer notable right when lots of coverage was occuring that wasn't favorable? This is the worst kind of censorship and it puts us in a very bad light. It also comes at a time when Arbcom is already involved in coddling POV pushers, bias and NPOV violations. So we have a major problem that needs to be fixed. So instead of attacking anyone who questions those trying to sweep things under the rug, we need to take a step back, take a deep breath, restore the article, put in a few sentences about the issues involved, and see what happens. We have this rush to action any time there's a controversy, but cooler, more rational, and more reasonable heads should prevail. Let's do the right thing instead of engaging in subterfuge to cover up for those violating our policies. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As the person who had the article usefied, I'm currently thinking about this with both the Mail and Indepdent as reliable and the Register as a source only as a matter of last resort for uncontroversial details. The Mail and Indepdent are pretty clearly WP:RS. Regarding the matter of development in userspace, there's a variety of conflicting precedents about that. Given that the closer of the DRV made the decision that userfication in this case was ok that seems ok. He's given one week to work on it as a time limit. Given that, I see it as very hard to see a problem with working on a userfied version. I haven't seen Jehochman claim that he will delete/issue blocks for any mention of the controversy in question although I've already asked him to clarify what precisely he considers to be a BLP problem. It might help matters if Jehochman would have other arbs or admins take a look at this in more detail since a variety of users seem to be upset with his handling of the matter. In any event, it would be appreciated if users would help contribute to a draft rather than attacking Jehochman or stirring up further drama. (Oh, and the next time something in my userspace is the center of an ANI thread could someone please do me the courtesy of letting me know?) JoshuaZ (talk) 04:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually Jehochman wrote in an edit summary to your user talk page: "(WP:BLP1E enforcement -- blocks will be issued if same old problems are reinstated.)"[14] DurovaCharge! 04:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't know what he meant by that. Is the problem using The Reg as a source? Is the problem the Wikipedia matter as a whole. Is the problem some of the unsourceable details about his career that were in the earlier version? Needs clarification. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's one in the morning in Jehochman's time zone. So he probably isn't available to answer that right now. Was it only a citation to The Register that he removed? It's a long page to scour and you're more familiar with it. DurovaCharge! 04:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If the recreated page is turned into an attack page, I predict the editors who are responsible will be blocked by somebody else. It won't be me doing the blocking, but I am pretty confident that an uninvolved administrator can be found to review the evidence if a block is called for. Jehochman Talk 11:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it is 1 AM here too... :). Anyways, I can't tell since he deleted the offending edits [15]. But I believe that was the only material in question. I do of course understand the late hour and don't have any issue waiting for his clarification. (Indeed, I sent him a note. I still see this ANI thread as unnecessary). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If the recreated page is turned into an attack page, I predict the editors who are responsible will be blocked by somebody else. It won't be me doing the blocking, but I am pretty confident that an uninvolved administrator can be found to review the evidence if a block is called for. Jehochman Talk 11:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's one in the morning in Jehochman's time zone. So he probably isn't available to answer that right now. Was it only a citation to The Register that he removed? It's a long page to scour and you're more familiar with it. DurovaCharge! 04:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't know what he meant by that. Is the problem using The Reg as a source? Is the problem the Wikipedia matter as a whole. Is the problem some of the unsourceable details about his career that were in the earlier version? Needs clarification. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually Jehochman wrote in an edit summary to your user talk page: "(WP:BLP1E enforcement -- blocks will be issued if same old problems are reinstated.)"[14] DurovaCharge! 04:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As the person who had the article usefied, I'm currently thinking about this with both the Mail and Indepdent as reliable and the Register as a source only as a matter of last resort for uncontroversial details. The Mail and Indepdent are pretty clearly WP:RS. Regarding the matter of development in userspace, there's a variety of conflicting precedents about that. Given that the closer of the DRV made the decision that userfication in this case was ok that seems ok. He's given one week to work on it as a time limit. Given that, I see it as very hard to see a problem with working on a userfied version. I haven't seen Jehochman claim that he will delete/issue blocks for any mention of the controversy in question although I've already asked him to clarify what precisely he considers to be a BLP problem. It might help matters if Jehochman would have other arbs or admins take a look at this in more detail since a variety of users seem to be upset with his handling of the matter. In any event, it would be appreciated if users would help contribute to a draft rather than attacking Jehochman or stirring up further drama. (Oh, and the next time something in my userspace is the center of an ANI thread could someone please do me the courtesy of letting me know?) JoshuaZ (talk) 04:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually this is developing news. That's not the only thing it is, but it certainly is that. Do you have an analysis of the numbered questions, please? DurovaCharge! 04:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's not just developing news. Here are a few of the sources that Google News search comes up wit (the first 10 or so predating the latest controversy):
- 1) [16] Fox News
- 2) [17] The Guardian
- 3) Time/CNN [18]
- 4) [19] The Independent
- 5)The Argus [20]
- 6) Wood and Vale [21]
- 7)Westminster’s Icelandic folly - PressDisplay.com - Oct 13, 2008 has a story on him.
- 8) Westminster affordable housing row
PlanningResource - PlanningResource (subscription) - Oct 23, 2008 Labour member of the committee Cllr David Boothroyd, has branded the move as “a smash and grab raid”. He said: "So many people are waiting for transfer to a ...
- 9) Local elections good for gay Labour
PinkNews.co.uk - May 5, 2006 Gay councillors, Matt Cooke and Alan Dobbie held seats in Labour controlled Haringey and David Boothroyd held his in Westminster.
- 10) And then of course there's the very substantial coverage AFTER his latest controversy [22], [23] Daily Mail
- 11) The Register [24]
And then there are other stories that I'm not sure are related. There are several tech stories. Is he David Boothroyd, Contributing Editor to Vision Systems Design? Does he write on wireless standards?
And I understand he's also an author. So there's more notability based on his book and writings and presumably more sources available on Google Books.
And to answer your other questions, Jehochman needs to stop acting unilaterally and in haste. And other veteran editors need to stop covering this up and maintain what's left of our integrity by doing what's right. There's no need for userspace recreations, because the article should be recreated in main space and protected with a couple sentences covering the latest issues so we can all get back to editing and expanding the encyclopedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Childofmidnight, those are all very interesting sources. Would you move them out of this subsection to the previous subsection please? For purposes of this subthread, all we really need to determine is that at least one of the new sources is reliable. We're already there. The second question is whether it's ok for users to recreate BLPs in user space after they've been deleted. And looking into this a little more, there's also a subquestion: if it's ok to do this in userspace, are editors prohibited from starting work before DRV? DurovaCharge! 04:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I can answer questions 1 and 3, Durova. Question 1, yes, the Daily Mail (second most-circulated paper in the nation) and Independent (a past top British Press Awards recipient) are both ironclad reliable sources. We use the Register as a source in the Essjay controversy article so I am assuming it is fine. TAway (talk) 04:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Question 3: I was incorrectly blocked by Jehochman for "WP:POINT violations" for having the article (entirely sourced) in my userspace (it was in my user space prior to his inappropriate speedy deletion, but he claimed I had restored it post-deletion), and only unblocked if "you will not restore this content anywhere on Wikipedia." When the article was userfied to JoshuaZ's userspace, Jehochman appeared and re-deleted, then selectively restored revisions without the Sam Blacketer controversy material saying, "Attack page or negative unsourced BLP: Deleted revisions were improperly restored" (it was not unsourced, and only "negative" in that it certainly reflects poorly) and "blocks will be issued if same old problems are reinstated." He then left a message on the userfied article's talk page making clear what he had done: "there were a bunch of WP:BLP problems in the deleted history. These were accidentally restored. I have deleted and selectively restored revisions I think may be acceptable."
Let's face it, had the evenly split post-speedy-deletion discussion at the Boothroyd deletion review been allowed to take place as a normal 7-day Article for Deletion it would have been a clear "no consensus" outcome. He has used his ability to speedy-delete and thus force DRV discussion instead of AfD discussion to claim that the book on this issue is now closed. He completely ignored administrator User:SoWhy's attempt to approach him on the matter and instead dismissively pointed to the DRV. By my count, three sysops (SoWhy, Sandstein, and now DGG) have commented with concerns about his protective and anti-consensus behavior during the developing Boothroyd situation.
Jehochman has openly stated "our website with its search-ranking-fu does not need to be made available to those who wish to amplify his (David Boothroyd's) problems" (assuming bad faith of those who hold the story with its coverage to be verifiable and notable). It is my contention that Jehochman is a search engine optimization expert who wants to keep the story out of the search engine results for the sake of Wikipedia and Boothroyd's reputations both. He is obviously about as far from a neutral broker of the Boothroyd situation as one can get right now and is in fact editing with a declared agenda: to minimize the search engine imprint of this story. His actions during AfD (speedying a deletion and denying a full AfD despite substantial new media coverage of a new development) and actions to suppress development of the issue's media coverage on-wiki via blocks and block threats are censorship. TAway (talk) 04:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, let's not rush to conclusions here. Or at least please excuse the ignorance of an editor who doesn't spend much time at AFD. In good faith, Jehochman might have been thinking of the editors David Boothroyd had voted to ban during his time as an arbitrator, who might add frivolous accusations to the substantial material. A portion of editors believe in being generous with courtesy deletions upon the subject's request. Regarding the block of May 27, could people who are familiar with AfD standards comment on the practice of recreating a BLP in userspace before DRV gets underway? Is that an ok thing to do? DurovaCharge! 05:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not enough in the way of precedent. If it were an unambiguous attack page then recreation in userspace would have clearly been blockable. However, the deletion reason seems to be primarily BLP1E which is not sufficient reason generally to argue against a userspace recreation. I'm not aware of any similar block occasions for such more or less borderline situations such as BLP1E, or courtesy deletion requests. (There may have also been a GFDL violation in TAQway's actions but I'm not sure). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm leaving a whole mess of things to the side here and just offering my own view on Durova's second question. As a matter of commonsense, if we in fact do courtesy deletions of not-well-known BLPs (as has happened here) then it strikes me as the acme of foolishness to turn around and allow recreation of said BLP - even in a different form - in userspace. Leaving the specifics of this case to the side, let's think of this from the perspective of the subject of a theoretical article similar to the one we are discussing. The article subject comes to us and says, "Hey, I'm a local politician in Topeka, KS who is barely notable and I don't want a Wiki bio because I'm worried about defamation and having an article about me is not important for Wikipedia/the world, so can you delete it?" We say yes and then do so, but then we allow an editor to develop a new article in user space, presumably for the purpose of one day importing it into article space (otherwise why would would it be there?). At a basic level that strikes me as illogical, and I think the BLP subject in question would be understandably agog that we deleted it and then let it be created again in some other part of Wikipedia for it to be worked on and then maybe moved back into article space later. The particulars of this case are more complex (and I'm intentionally ignoring them to make a general point), but personally I feel "our general practice on userspace recreations of courtesy deleted biographies" has to be "we don't do that." If not then courtesy deletion is effectively meaningless. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, couldn't userspace be noindexed?
The DRV closer in this instance specifically allowed userspace drafts with a time limit. So the post-DRV recreation seems ok. Not sure about the other one.Striking for now. Need to reverify: thought that was written, but having trouble finding it. DurovaCharge! 05:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)- I suppose that helps, to the extent that average people know what "noindexed" means and/or are comforted by some techie's explanation of it (I barely know what it means, to be honest). Again I'm just thinking about this from the perspective of a the subject of the BLP who asks for deletion—presumably (most of the time) a person who is not familiar with Wikipedia or even maybe the workings of the series of tubes in which this web site lives. If we say, "Sure, we'll delete that!" and then in following up the person in question somehow sees (maybe on the talk page of the admin who did the deletion) that the article we just deleted has been recreated at some random user's user page....well let's just say it probably wouldn't be fun to respond to that OTRS ticket. The moral component of our BLP policy is (or should be) as much about perceived harm as actual harm—i.e. if a BLP subject says "I'm an unimportant person and this article has done and/or might do me harm" we probably are not going to fight with them about that but rather will largely take their word. Similarly I would not want to get in a conversation/argument with such a person about how they don't have to worry because it's in userspace which is "different," something something something "noindexing," etc. etc. And it still doesn't deal with the fact that an article in userspace is, by definition, something that is being worked on to be put in article space, otherwise we wouldn't have it there in userspace.
Like I said there are different aspects to this particular discussion that might complicate matters, but in general I really cannot imagine a compelling argument for saying we can delete a BLP based on a real life request from an article subject and then turn around and put it in user space to work on it so we can later re-create the article we just deleted. In all seriousness I might be missing something but that strikes me as the rub of the matter. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- What you are missing: that almost immediately after Boothroyd's deletion request he became the subject of national media attention. National media attention in multiple sources completely changes the ballgame. TAway (talk) 06:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Like I said above, "Like I said there are different aspects to this particular discussion that might complicate matters..." This case might be slightly different for the reason you suggest (though this supposed "national media attention" seems, at a glance, to be quite minimal). My two previous comments gave my view on Durova's general question about userfying BLP articles that have been courtesy deleted rather than engaging with the specifics of this situation. I think it's obvious that userfying BLP articles that have been courtesy deleted is, as a rule, a definite bad idea. Perhaps this is an exception or perhaps not, but if it's the former I think it would be a very rare one. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- 3 years 9 months is not "almost immediately". M. Boothroyd asked for the article to be deleted on the 8th of August 2005. This is one of the errors of fact upon which you have built your house of cards. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- What you are missing: that almost immediately after Boothroyd's deletion request he became the subject of national media attention. National media attention in multiple sources completely changes the ballgame. TAway (talk) 06:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I suppose that helps, to the extent that average people know what "noindexed" means and/or are comforted by some techie's explanation of it (I barely know what it means, to be honest). Again I'm just thinking about this from the perspective of a the subject of the BLP who asks for deletion—presumably (most of the time) a person who is not familiar with Wikipedia or even maybe the workings of the series of tubes in which this web site lives. If we say, "Sure, we'll delete that!" and then in following up the person in question somehow sees (maybe on the talk page of the admin who did the deletion) that the article we just deleted has been recreated at some random user's user page....well let's just say it probably wouldn't be fun to respond to that OTRS ticket. The moral component of our BLP policy is (or should be) as much about perceived harm as actual harm—i.e. if a BLP subject says "I'm an unimportant person and this article has done and/or might do me harm" we probably are not going to fight with them about that but rather will largely take their word. Similarly I would not want to get in a conversation/argument with such a person about how they don't have to worry because it's in userspace which is "different," something something something "noindexing," etc. etc. And it still doesn't deal with the fact that an article in userspace is, by definition, something that is being worked on to be put in article space, otherwise we wouldn't have it there in userspace.
- Well, couldn't userspace be noindexed?
- I'm leaving a whole mess of things to the side here and just offering my own view on Durova's second question. As a matter of commonsense, if we in fact do courtesy deletions of not-well-known BLPs (as has happened here) then it strikes me as the acme of foolishness to turn around and allow recreation of said BLP - even in a different form - in userspace. Leaving the specifics of this case to the side, let's think of this from the perspective of the subject of a theoretical article similar to the one we are discussing. The article subject comes to us and says, "Hey, I'm a local politician in Topeka, KS who is barely notable and I don't want a Wiki bio because I'm worried about defamation and having an article about me is not important for Wikipedia/the world, so can you delete it?" We say yes and then do so, but then we allow an editor to develop a new article in user space, presumably for the purpose of one day importing it into article space (otherwise why would would it be there?). At a basic level that strikes me as illogical, and I think the BLP subject in question would be understandably agog that we deleted it and then let it be created again in some other part of Wikipedia for it to be worked on and then maybe moved back into article space later. The particulars of this case are more complex (and I'm intentionally ignoring them to make a general point), but personally I feel "our general practice on userspace recreations of courtesy deleted biographies" has to be "we don't do that." If not then courtesy deletion is effectively meaningless. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not enough in the way of precedent. If it were an unambiguous attack page then recreation in userspace would have clearly been blockable. However, the deletion reason seems to be primarily BLP1E which is not sufficient reason generally to argue against a userspace recreation. I'm not aware of any similar block occasions for such more or less borderline situations such as BLP1E, or courtesy deletion requests. (There may have also been a GFDL violation in TAQway's actions but I'm not sure). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The content related to the recent scandal can be added to Criticism of Wikipedia, as there are reliable sources. My concern about the biography is that it was, and would be if recreated, a serious WP:BLP1E violation. We cannot write a biography based on a person being involved in one event when there is very thin coverage of the rest of their life. Unless there is enough substance to the rest of the person's life, the scandal would have undue weight. That's the problem. A public figure, like Chris Dodd can have some scandal content in their biography because there is enough substance to provide balance.
I'd very much like an answer to the question of whether it is kosher to userify a deleted WP:BLP. My initial feeling was against undeletion, but I did not outright delete the article again because I wanted more input, and did not want to generate more shrill comments about coverup. I did delete selected revisions which either 1/ I recalled having been previously deleted by other administrators before I ever set eyes on the article, or 2/ represented WP:BLP1E violations that had been discussed, and the deletion of which had been sustained at WP:DRV. Basically, I think the undeleting administrator was not fully aware of those circumstances and would not disagree with what I did. Jehochman Talk 10:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
On a side note: Jehochman involved admin?
Another problem to ponder, which I have so far not considered, but which strikes me now is this: If Jehochman closed the second AFD as delete (very quickly without the usual 24h SNOW waiting period that admins usually apply), doesn't this mean he is now involved? Imho SNOW, unlike consensus judging, requires an admin to decide that deletion is the correct thing to do. SNOW is an interpretation of WP:IAR as we all know and IAR requires a decision by the one applying it, i.e. one should only ignore the rules if they think it's best for the project. But if SNOW/IAR requires such a decision, it means the person ignoring the rules (here the SNOWing admin) has effectively taken a stance on the issue. But if they have taken a stance on the issue by doing so, they are now to be considered an involved administrator and should not take administrator actions regarding the same subject again, especially not closing a new AFD (like the third one) or selectively deleting revisions of the userfied article) based on said close. Opinions? Regards SoWhy 07:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Trying to solve a difficult problem does not disqualify somebody from continuing to try to solve that problem. You can't just scream "involved!" to get rid of an administrator who disagrees with your point of view. Most of the revisions I deleted had been previously deleted (as best I can remember) before I was ever aware of the article. When the article was userified, I don't think it was the administrators intention to restore those revisions. They included some edits by the HAGGER vandal, for example. I also removed the WP:BLP1E violation that was the immediate cause of the article being deleted (which was upheld at WP:DRV). Jehochman Talk 09:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I understand that you probably do not view yourself as an involved administrator while I think in the spirit of the reasons you cited on your first close that you were from then on, now having an opinion about what should stay and what should be deleted. A deletion by an involved administrator can be upheld, so pointing at DRV is not really an argument. But my posting was a question to those not involved in the issue at all (unlike you and me) whether my interpretation of IAR/SNOW leading to a seperate decision and thus more than just being judgment of consensus is correct, so I'd like to invite those people to consider this thought/problem (regardless of the issue at hand if possible).
From you I'd like to request that you recuse yourself from taking any further administrative action towards this article (userfied or not) and allow an administrator previously not involved in the issue at hand to decide the further fate of the article (you can tag it for speedy deletion as G4 for example and someone will make a decision). It would serve both you and the project as a whole if any rumors of whitewashing can be avoided and not having the same admin repeatedly deleting an article is imho a way to achieve this. Regards SoWhy 10:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I understand that you probably do not view yourself as an involved administrator while I think in the spirit of the reasons you cited on your first close that you were from then on, now having an opinion about what should stay and what should be deleted. A deletion by an involved administrator can be upheld, so pointing at DRV is not really an argument. But my posting was a question to those not involved in the issue at all (unlike you and me) whether my interpretation of IAR/SNOW leading to a seperate decision and thus more than just being judgment of consensus is correct, so I'd like to invite those people to consider this thought/problem (regardless of the issue at hand if possible).
- My opinion is that this side-issue that you have created only serves to confuse, not to enlighten. The specifics of the case at hand are that the userfied edits that were deleted, as you can see for yourself, with the sole exception of TAway's contributions were all BLP vandalism making various libellous statements about the subject's sex life and sexual orientation. Abstract notions of "involvement" are irrelevant to that, and only serve to further muddy waters already muddied quite a lot above. If an abstract notion prevents someone from reversing/removing an edit where a BLP has been replaced with the word "cunt" (the one piece of vandalism here that I think to be safe to explicitly describe) then the abstract notion is directly enabling the existence of damage to the project. Uncle G (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Applying some simple logic here from my simple mind: (1) If this guy Boothroyd is notable, then he could qualify for a bio article. If not, then delete it. (2) If his own life and career are affected by his abuse of wikipedia, then it could merit a sentence or two. If not, then it doesn't belong in his article. That's not to say it might not belong elsewhere, such as the Criticism of Wikipedia article, as it illustrates some of the flaws in wikipedia's premise, which have been exploited by many, not just that one guy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Is Jehochman involved 'now'?
It's a simple test.
The level of involvement is simple to determine: is there consensus that Jehochman is involved now? If so, he is, and can't use the tools again without risk of the usual risks that come with that. If there isn't consensus he's involved, he's not. If it is gray or borderline, you probably are. It's fairly simple, everyone. Make your case either way with evidence, or stop alluding to it. rootology (C)(T) 13:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- My case is above. It's an irrelevant side-issue given the actual specifics here, and extra section headings don't change that. Uncle G (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Notability of the event in the context of the rest of him and BLP
This is getting pointless in particular. If he's notable, he's notable. If he's not, he's not. You either are, or you aren't. The sourcing IMHO is beginning to look like he is. I will say again what I said before: the fact Boothroyd is or isn't a Wikipedia user is 100% irrelevant in anything. The fact he screwed up here has zero value in any decisions we make. If the Wikipedia Event he caused gets coverage, there is no BLP violation at the least a one-sentence mention of it, relative to what has been reported so far. None. To totally suppress it from David Boothroyd, should it be created, is laughable and not a defense of anything under BLP, but a defense of a Wikipedia user. Given that it's a single notable event in the life of an apparently notable person's diverse biography (and yes, it looks like as a politician he is notable) a one-sentence mention is not harmful. If the news and the event is harmful as an event to the person, that's not our fault; like any other embarrassing event, he regrettably brougnt it upon himself and it's in the press already. rootology (C)(T) 13:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- What is the process for restoring an article after it has been to deletion review and the deletion was sustained? WP:DRVRV seems to be a redlink. Jehochman Talk 13:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is no process, as far as I am aware. An article on Boothroyd can be recreated, but like a case involving just an AFD, it must not fall foul of the reasons why the original article was deleted, otherwise it can be speedily deleted. AdmiralKolchak (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Typically, someone does a noindex userpage draft, gets a working model that would 'pass' AFD trivially, and brings it back to DRV.
IfWhen DRV signs off, someone kicks it back live, and sometimes the old history is merged in (if old content is used) otherwise, new history. Since the draft in Josh's side is used, the history needs to be merged in fully I think when it goes live eventually. Given Boothroyd is a notable politician in the UK that is apparently even getting all over the news for events unrelated to Wikipedia after that mess, I think it's inevitable. rootology (C)(T) 13:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Typically, someone does a noindex userpage draft, gets a working model that would 'pass' AFD trivially, and brings it back to DRV.
- (edit conflict) Yea, I don't think this was a request to overrule the DRV. Rather a comment about how BLP is being used here as a means to suppress unfavorable information. For example, this threat to block over the reintroduction of the WP controversy is completely inappropriate. This is not a BLP issue, and citing BLP where it doesn't apply does the project no favors. لennavecia 13:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I said, Recreation in the same form is potentially a blockable action, or perhaps the article will just be deleted again. I really hope it does not get to that point. Not sure I'm seeing a threat there as much as a statement of fact or a warning. I'm not going to block anybody or delete anything further, as this issue is now on the radar of multiple administrators. At the moment I am digging through the deleted edits and some other history where I've found multiple accounts and IPs that appear to be connected to an infamous banned editor. Jehochman Talk 14:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure whether David Boothroyd should be a red or blue link, but it's odd to suggest that there are not BLP issues here. Leave all of the Wikipedia stuff to the side for a minute. The subject of the article requested deletion—once four years ago (I think before we did that kind of thing, i.e. courtesy deletions) and once more recently. Regardless of how big of a deal this recent controversy is (and I think it's not nearly as big of a deal as some suggest—as of now there are a whopping seven news articles on the issue that I can find, few of which seem to contain any original reporting), Boothroyd is most definitely "relatively unknown" in my view. I'm not sure what the current thinking on deleting BLPs at the request of such subjects is at this point, but in the past my understanding was that this was something that is acceptable and somewhat up to admin discussion per various ArbCom rulings. Maybe the consensus now on this particular case is that there is too much coverage now to not have an article on Boothroyd, but let's not lose sight of the fact that: A) the subject has repeatedly requested deletion; B) the key subject matter can easily be covered elsewhere (since the key subject matter is the Wiki controversy, not the fact that he is a local politician, of whom there are hundreds of thousand across the world); C) BLP is something we all obviously care about—even when it comes to Wikipedians who have articles. To suggest that there is no BLP issue here at all is just bizarre in my view, and I think it would be easier to see that were there not concerns about a coverup of information relating to Wikipedia. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 15:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I said, Recreation in the same form is potentially a blockable action, or perhaps the article will just be deleted again. I really hope it does not get to that point. Not sure I'm seeing a threat there as much as a statement of fact or a warning. I'm not going to block anybody or delete anything further, as this issue is now on the radar of multiple administrators. At the moment I am digging through the deleted edits and some other history where I've found multiple accounts and IPs that appear to be connected to an infamous banned editor. Jehochman Talk 14:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I already commented in the MfD of the userspace draft, which didn't look at all like a NOINDEX draft to work on a better article, but a parking place for the article because it had been deleted at AfD against his own opinion. I already commented on the MfD about how the sources before the wikipedia "incident" only quote him to show the opinion of a member of the Westminster Council, and how he didn't take any of those controversial decisions himself, it was the council that made them. TAway can make as many claims of censorship in his user page as he wants, but those are not supported by evidence, since both the MfD and the DRV were closed by uninvolved admins. Sooo, I'd suggest that is marked as resolved and that TAway heads to WP:DRV to contest the DRV close, and that trying other noticeboards should be considered forum-shopping (and give him +1 kudos of unnecessary drama for every claim of censorship that he makes, please). --Enric Naval (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe another Essjay-type scandal
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
With the already existing coverage of the Sam Blacketer controversy in the media, and on Wikipedia in the form of the relevant article and various discussions such as a large one currently going on above, the apparent news that The Times is preparing a new piece on what's happened and with ABC having caught wind of the story, I'm concerned this controversy may escalate into something, whilst probably not as grand as what happened with Essjay, rather bad. What should we do if this happens? OpenSeven (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a new and weak project anymore. It needs not shake over any possible negative mention in media.
- Just do as instructed in Yes Minister, and everything will be fine. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's great if the media wants to cover sock puppetry. This sort of problem is a big issue for many websites, not just Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 15:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As a criticism of wikipedia, all it proves is that being totally open to the public can bite you, and that wikipedia might need to become more restrictive, maybe not as restrictive as citizendium, but maybe some steps in that direction. This so-called "scandal" only shames the sockpuppet, not wikipedia. But it should be a wakeup call to tighten the reins a bit, somehow. I wonder what Wales' take is on all this? Has anyone asked him? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm shocked... shocked to hear that sockpuppets have been editing en.Wikipedia. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- We could rename it "shockpuppetry". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm shocked... shocked to hear that sockpuppets have been editing en.Wikipedia. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As a criticism of wikipedia, all it proves is that being totally open to the public can bite you, and that wikipedia might need to become more restrictive, maybe not as restrictive as citizendium, but maybe some steps in that direction. This so-called "scandal" only shames the sockpuppet, not wikipedia. But it should be a wakeup call to tighten the reins a bit, somehow. I wonder what Wales' take is on all this? Has anyone asked him? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the politicos and mainstream media have taken a fancy to this controversy. The Daily Mail report a few breathtaking inaccuracies, but this goes a long way toward making this situation a lot more complicated. Jehochman Talk 16:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- To be honest, they're lambasting Boothroyd (fancy the newspapers chastising Labour party members...) much, much more than they are Wikipedia. ╟─TreasuryTag►Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster─╢ 16:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As if he's the only one to have done it. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Still, at least they're aiming at the right target; this is the fault of the editor, not the site. HalfShadow 16:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If he's suffering slings and arrows in real life, it's a fitting punishment, although it still doesn't make him notable enough for his own page. It could be a footnote in the Criticism article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Fitting punishment? Gross. Who elected you, or indeed any of us, judge and jury? The user known as Sam Blacketer clearly erred here, but it was hardly the most dastardly thing we've ever seen on Wikipedia, and now the real-life person might be facing very real-life consequences based in part on some unsurprisingly sloppy reporting by a British tabloid. I hardly think that's something to celebrate, and a bit more sympathy for the actual living person affected by this - regardless of mistakes they made - would be appropriate (and I say this as someone who has never interacted with the person in question on Wikipedia or anywhere else). This isn't a goddamn video game, and this discussion is rapidly moving in an unseemly direction with little regard for real-world consequences. If there is continuing coverage then presumably Sam Blacketer controversy or something similar will stay an article and we'll talk about this situation there. All I see here right now is unhelpful, and not very thoughtful, speculation. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If he's suffering slings and arrows in real life, it's a fitting punishment, although it still doesn't make him notable enough for his own page. It could be a footnote in the Criticism article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Still, at least they're aiming at the right target; this is the fault of the editor, not the site. HalfShadow 16:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As if he's the only one to have done it. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sam is going to initiate an admin recall of himself on June 15. Do people think his adminship should go? OpenSeven (talk) 16:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
David Boothroyd deletion - do we have a process or not?
One of the most annoying things about the Wikipedia community is the desire to have instant outcomes when we are supposed to be deliberating thoughtfully. We can see this at Articles for Deletion, where the guideline says:
When an article is nominated for deletion, the Wikipedia community may discuss its merits for a period usually no less than seven days, in order to come to a public rough consensus about whether the article is unsuited to Wikipedia. Following seven days of discussion, an experienced Wikipedian will determine if a consensus was reached and will "close" the discussion accordingly.
This rarely comes into practice. The idea that we discuss whether to delete an article for a length of seven days is pretty much non-existent. Case-in-point: the recent AFD for David Boothroyd. There were three for this article as follows:
- First AFD on August 8-August 14, 2005 - 7 days, KEEP - 10 votes total
- Second AFD on May 23-May 23, 2009 - not even one day. DELETE - 6 votes total
- Third AFD on May 27-May27, 2009 - not even one day. DELETE - 7 votes total
There is no way--no way--those last two deletion discussions should have been closed on the same days that they were opened. The third one was open for an hour and a half. The second one for less than that! The admins closing and deleting under these circumstances are derelict in the guidelines that this community has set up. If there were problems with the articles, they could be addressed. This is a very problematic trend for people to enact WP:SNOW, often not even citing it, to close off debate. Censorship, indeed. -->David Shankbone 17:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes it should have run the full period, and yes it was, in my view at least, a mistake to cut it off after one day, and yes it is annoying when we don't deliberate thoughtfully. Jehochman could have handled this better. But crying "censorship" is a major failure to assume good faith and is not really borne out by the facts. In both AFDs Jehochman cited BLP enforcement as his rationale and I see no reason to not take him at his word on that (i.e. I think he had good intentions here), particularly as the article subject requested deletion (twice actually, counting four years ago). We do do, or at least have done, deletions of marginal BLPs when subjects request them, and I think the real issue here is whether or not that was appropriate in this case. If you want thoughtful deliberation, let's stick to that rather than making unfounded accusations of censorship.
- Also, there's a very related AfD still running and I have a feeling the Boothroyd issue will be resolved over there eventually. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The article was userfied to User:JoshuaZ/David Boothroyd. —EncMstr (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nobody cares that Boothroyd asked for his article to be deleted, just like we don't care that Don Murphy wants his deleted (also for BLP concerns). It's irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, this is Wikipedia self-censorship, removing articles about incidents that cause us embarrassment. The article existed for four years after a seven-day long deletion discussion. The last two AFDs are completely illegitimate. They weren't open for one day. They were open for less than two hours. There is no possible way that we gained any consensus in that time frame, especially given that there was consensus reached to KEEP when the process was done properly. Admins have to follow the guidelines we set up, and not go around deleting articles based upon their own judgment. I take extreme issue with Jehochman over how he has conducted himself with these AFDs. There is no AGF when our governing policies and guidelines are shirked so heinously. -->David Shankbone 17:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I concur that the two last AFDs were closed too soon. AdmiralKolchak (talk) 17:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Deletion Review is that way. I don't think getting worked up about "censorship" issues is very constructive at this point; if these closures were outside of process or otherwise erroneous, then they should be reviewed by the normal process, not at this noticeboard. Shereth 17:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wrong - this is an admin issue about not following guidelines, procedures and policies. DRV is separate. -->David Shankbone 17:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that the larger issue of percieved malfeasance by one editor is a seperate issue from the deletions themselves, but the above statements seem to be conflating them. The closure of these discussions has already been mentioned in the deliberation about the larger issue at hand; I'm not sure what this new subsection is adding to the argument. It reads more like a request to review the closures rather than contribute to the discussion about a user's behavior. Shereth 17:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Like you David I don't agree with the last two AFDs, as I already said. But also bear in mind that Boothroyd asked that the article be deleted back in 2005 in the first AFD, well before any of this stuff went down. At the very least, there is a split in the community about whether we do courtesy deletions of BLPs when the subject requests it, and when the subject is of marginal notability. Don Murphy is not marginal because he produced a massively successful Hollywood film and someone wrote a book significantly about him, Boothroyd is marginal because he is a local politician who has recently achieved some (at this point) minor notoriety for one incident. We can debate about whether we should take the subject's wishes into account in the latter circumstance or not, and we can agree that Jehochman did not handle the AFDs well (though I'm less concerned by that than you are apparently), but don't pretend that "nobody cares that Boothroyd asked for his article to be deleted" because some people clearly do, and because we have done subject-requested deletions before (though I don't have an example at hand). There is a larger BLP debate here which remains unresolved, but things like WP:BLPBAN and the Badlydrawnjeff ArbCom suggest that Jehochman's actions were not completely off-the-wall. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There was a lengthy discussion at WP:DRV, at least a week, and the deletion was sustained. How many more discussions are needed? Why don't we just let the matter lie for a few weeks and then see if there are enough sources to write a proper article? What's the rush? Wikipedia is not news, and if you want to write news, try WikiNews. Jehochman Talk 17:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why are WP:SNOW closures even permitted? What is the point of establishing policy if nobody is required to follow them, or even remarked on when they don't? ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 17:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've tried Wikinews; an article that was around for four years after a KEEP AFD, and whose subject only became more notable recently, is a problem for you to delete in under two hours, Jehochman. I don't see how you could possibly defend your actions here. It's a slap in the face to the community that has given you trust to follow how we write how things will happen. -->David Shankbone 18:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If you feel that way than take this to another level of dispute resolution, but please have a bit of respect for the BLP issue, which is clearly present, and by which these actions are at least somewhat defensible. You seem to be plowing right past that (along with some others). This is a fairly complex situation (particularly as its literally still unfolding in the news and in an active AfD), and I'm skeptical of anyone who tries to make it sound simple. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Bigtime, I see no BLP issues mentioned in this thread that would excuse this behavior. If I want to discuss article content, I will do so at DRV or on the article Talk page. Yes, I think it's irrelevant that the subject wants their article deleted (or doesn't want the New York Times to write that story about them, etc.), and I always have (but I also think FlaggedRevs is long overdue). Here, the issue is with Jehochman deleting, twice, in under two hours, an article that was previously kept--strongly--by consensus. This is not the way we do things. -->David Shankbone 18:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If you feel that way than take this to another level of dispute resolution, but please have a bit of respect for the BLP issue, which is clearly present, and by which these actions are at least somewhat defensible. You seem to be plowing right past that (along with some others). This is a fairly complex situation (particularly as its literally still unfolding in the news and in an active AfD), and I'm skeptical of anyone who tries to make it sound simple. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why are WP:SNOW closures even permitted? What is the point of establishing policy if nobody is required to follow them, or even remarked on when they don't? ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 17:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that the larger issue of percieved malfeasance by one editor is a seperate issue from the deletions themselves, but the above statements seem to be conflating them. The closure of these discussions has already been mentioned in the deliberation about the larger issue at hand; I'm not sure what this new subsection is adding to the argument. It reads more like a request to review the closures rather than contribute to the discussion about a user's behavior. Shereth 17:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- That first RfD, 4 years ago, was hardly a ringing endorsement. Notability questions arose even then. After that, the article skated mostly under the radar for nearly 4 years, with only about 80 or 85 edits during that interval. Once the user got himself in trouble and that became public knowledge, then there was a revived move to delete it. You can claim wikipedia is protecting itself, but it's actually that guy who is shamed, not wikipedia, and making a big thing out of it in his article raises questions of BLP violations; undue weight; coatracking; and, frankly, wikipedian narcissim. Unfortunately, the quick closure of the RfD's looks fishy. But the DRV was open for a week, so there was ample opportunity to defend the article. It did not, and does not, belong here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are several highly problematic deleted edits to that article by Grawp. The situation here is more complex than meets the eye. I've got a checkuser working on this. Jehochman Talk 18:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Jehochman has asked me to inform the community that he and I have had prior conflict. That said, questions about the above comment: were the edits to that article substantially more problematic than edits to other borderline notability BLPs that get a spurt of negative attention in the press? DurovaCharge! 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are edits in the history that are as problematic as edits can get. As in, worst I've seen on Wikipedia. This article is a very high risk of doing serious harm to the subject. You've seen the sloppy reporting at The Register and the Daily Mail. Do you want to pick up one of those papers tomorrow and see them repeating an unsubstantiated allegation of pedophilia or bestiality? I know for absolute certainty that Grawp has edited this article at least twice, and there are a bunch of other edits that appear to be coming from his sock puppets or friends. Jehochman Talk 18:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The normal way of handling AFD vandalism is semiprotect, watchlist, and ask for assistance at ANI to deal with remaining vandalism. Isn't that true? BTW there's a question at my user talk also. DurovaCharge! 19:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- So...you close two AFDs when they've barely been opened instead of asking for oversight? -->David Shankbone 19:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are edits in the history that are as problematic as edits can get. As in, worst I've seen on Wikipedia. This article is a very high risk of doing serious harm to the subject. You've seen the sloppy reporting at The Register and the Daily Mail. Do you want to pick up one of those papers tomorrow and see them repeating an unsubstantiated allegation of pedophilia or bestiality? I know for absolute certainty that Grawp has edited this article at least twice, and there are a bunch of other edits that appear to be coming from his sock puppets or friends. Jehochman Talk 18:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Jehochman has asked me to inform the community that he and I have had prior conflict. That said, questions about the above comment: were the edits to that article substantially more problematic than edits to other borderline notability BLPs that get a spurt of negative attention in the press? DurovaCharge! 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are several highly problematic deleted edits to that article by Grawp. The situation here is more complex than meets the eye. I've got a checkuser working on this. Jehochman Talk 18:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
By the way, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Blacketer controversy is ongoing in case people want to debate whether the content should be in Wikipedia and where it should go. I don't think WP:ANI is the correct venue to resolve content disputes. Thank you. Jehochman Talk 18:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- JE, even if there were BLP problems, you could have removed those problems and allowed the AFDs to proceed. Do you or do you not see why your closing two AFDs, in the midst of recent news events, is a problem that violated your responsibilities as an admin, when you should have followed the guidelines and just removed problematic material from the article? -->David Shankbone 18:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think the whole point of closing the third AFD according the WP:STEAM was done to force a DRV which by default deletes where an AFD keeps. On a whole this is a matter of admin conduct and not anymore about if DB should have an article or not. Agathoclea (talk) 18:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Stalking and Harrassment of Nassim Taleb by Ulner
I am a connected to the Taleb family (Nassim Nicholas Taleb) whose living biography wikipedia is handling; I only act to correct distortions and harrassment and do not add new material. I would like to report userUlner as obsessed with Taleb and making every single change possible on every item and bickering, in a way that exhibits web stalking of a living person, causing much DISTRESS to Taleb's family. I would like to seek Ulner refrain from further harassment of Taleb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IbnAmioun (talk • contribs) 21:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC) IbnAmioun (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Have you tried discussing this with User:Ulner? I don't see any messages on their talk page, but I may be missing something. -- Darth Mike (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Have you considered that you might have a WP:COI conflict of interest and that maybe you shouldn't be involved with the Taleb articles? Who cares about minor misrepresentations on wikipedia? They hardly matter but having someone so dedicated to observe your articles sorta raises the suspicions of users that there really might be something unwritten worth knowing regarding the matter. Anyway I'll be keeping a closer eye on Taleb related articles from now on.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 23:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- 194x144, that wasn't entirely helpful. Please WP:AGF
- IbnAmioun - Also, please assume good faith about other contributors. You seem to be reacting very defensively to other editors who want to help improve the article. I've reviewed a dozen or so changes and none of them seem to be abusive or vandalism. If you have specific examples that you're concerned about, either on the article or the talk pages, please provide them here.
- Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for the help. My problem with User:Ulner is that he seems obsessed (to make 50 entries in such a short span betrays obsession) and he bickers over the smallest thing as he is doing now --any small detail seems to be a stumble to him. There is no problem if you have editors going back and forth on a point but you should realize that someone FROM THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE INDUSTRY (of which Taleb is extremely critical) making 50 edits on a living person without others intervening can be extremely distorting. IbnAmioun (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- This basically seems to be a content dispute at Nassim Nicholas Taleb. That article seems over-written, and might be trimmed down a bit. It is a bit laudatory; the guy tanked two hedge funds with his strategy, but that's not mentioned. (His basic concept was kind of cute - buy options on both sides that are way out of the money, on the theory that the market underprices options far from the current price. This pays off when something drastic happens, and bleeds money when markets are relatively stable. Hence his paper "Bleed or Blowup", and his "Black Swan" book.) This needs attention from someone who understands derivative strategies. Is there a laid-off quant in the house? --John Nagle (talk) 06:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Atollardo persists in removing speedy delete tags from pages they created.
This user has been warned 5-7 times in the last 2 weeks about rtemovingt speedy delete templates yet keeps on doings so. I would suggest a short term block. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 23:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- He sure has been, doesn't look like he answers those warnings in any way either, maybe a block would encourage this user to discuss the matter instead of just edit warring.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- from the backtrack he keeps recreating csd deleted pages. I have nominated two others as well but admin may want to look at his contribn log. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 23:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Darkfrog24: Tendentious contravention of MoS
Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user has been deliberately converting correctly-styled material to incorrect style. The matter has already been discussed here, where there is a brief history and a samping of pertinent diffs. The user erroneously claimed that his position was backed by MoS protocol, but refused to elaborate to any degree. Since that discussion, he has continued to make the same kind of changes. Ilkali (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hi, everyone. In this case, Ilkali and I are both talking about the placement of periods and commas with regard to adjacent quotation marks. I found a few articles that already used the American style of punctuation (in which periods and commas are placed inside the quote marks) and I moved a few strays commas and periods, usually while making other edits anyway. I do not go around randomly changing styles in willy-nilly. It is my understanding that Wikipedia promotes internal consistency within articles and that there is a policy or at least a tradition of, "When in doubt, follow the original editor's lead."
- I have never made secret of the fact that I would support a change in Wikipedia's punctuation policy to permit American punctuation where appropriate, as we do with American vs. British spelling. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As I covered in the MoS talk page, there is nothing in any policy or guideline that sanctions changing to an explicitly dispreferred style. Internal consistency is applied in situations where multiple contrasting styles are permitted. It is not there to justify changing from correct to incorrect style. Ilkali (talk) 14:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Looking forward from the diff you supply above, I find that I agree with each of his edits. There may be earlier examples that demonstate your point better, but those definitely weren't problematic changes.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As I covered in the MoS talk page, there is nothing in any policy or guideline that sanctions changing to an explicitly dispreferred style. Internal consistency is applied in situations where multiple contrasting styles are permitted. It is not there to justify changing from correct to incorrect style. Ilkali (talk) 14:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- To be clear: The issue is changing from logical quotation (which is prescribed by the MoS) to typesetters' quotation (which is proscribed by the MoS). The diffs in question sometimes contain other changes that might obscure that point. Can we agree that tendentious editing against the MoS is problematic? Ilkali (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, now I see the edit you mean. I agree that moving the comma into the quoted name of an encyclopedia article was against the MOS -- I just lost it among all the good changes in that diff and the later ones.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that's probably not the best diff to illustrate the problem - it's just the only one since the issue was brought up on MoS talk. I had hoped that that discussion would realign the user's editing habits, and I include the recent diff as proof that it has not. Ilkali (talk) 16:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
More evidence. Here are the diffs from the MOS talk page: [25], [26], [27], [28]
As background, in mid-May, User:Mchavez and User:Darkfrog24 proposed on MOS Talk to change MOS's very long-standing guideline that requires the so-called logical quotation style, which prohibits placing punctuaion in a direct quotation unless that punctuation is in the quoted text (most style guides, especially in the US, prescribe placing commas and periods before rather than after a closing quotation mark, even if it is not part of the quoted text, based on typographical considerations). Although a very substantial majority of editors opposed this on the Talk page, Mchavez and Darkfrog24 made edits to the MOS guideline against consensus. Admin User:Rootology has full protected the MOS page twice over their edit warring on this point (Darkfrog24 insists that he did not engage in edit warring, although Rootology put an edit war warning on Darkfrog24's talk page; Mchavez insists the the edit warriors are the ones who revert his and Darkfrog24's counter-consensus changes to the MOS). Darkfrog24 and Mchavez have argued this issue at length under several headings on MOS Talk, but without support from other editors. Mchavez has not been active for the past few days. Darkfrog24 continues to argue, argue, and argue, but finally conceded that there is no consensus for his proposals [29].
Now, Darkfrog24 has evidently decided that having failed in his attempt to change the MOS, he will edit articles to his preferred punctuation style, against the MOS guideline. His pretext is the guideline to follow the style of the original author "when in doubt". But there is no doubt here because the MOS guideline is, and always has been, clear. This is not merely wikilawyering, but bad wikilawyering (wikilawyering malpractice?). The illogic of Darkfrog24's argument was made clear at MOS Talk, but he repeats it here.
This user's deliberate flouting of the MOS in article space to make a point and his disruptive conduct at WP:MOS both warrant some corrective action. Finell (Talk) 17:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- This is not the case. I am not working with MChavez. Your discussion with MChavez was already going on when I arrived at the MoS page in late May. There's no conspiracy. I was not involved in the second edit war. Yes, I made one reversion during that time, but it had nothing to do with the issue about which the war was conducted. Duke of Waltham had reversed some changes I'd made--and for which I'd gotten approval on the talk page--and I put them back. I found out later that my "undo" had also restored some of MChavez's things, but I didn't notice this at the time.
- I'm not making changes to prove a point. If I were trying to pull a WP: Point, then I'd have deleted existing explanation and waited for the talk page to be inundated by confused editors, not proposed that more explnanation be added. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- As for "denying the logic of your arguments," and engaging in disruptive conduct, I simply don't agree with you. We haven't come to the same conclusion about whether the MoS is clear or not in its current form. That's not a bannable offense. Asking questions and taking part in debate on a talk page even when other people don't agree isn't disruptive conduct; it's Wikipedia.
- The issue at hand is whether or not it is okay to take an article that already uses American punctuation and change the stray periods and commas so that they match the article's prevailing style, making the article internally consistent. And just to be clear, I've been doing it for years. It has nothing to do with you, Ilkali, MChavez, or any of our discussions on the MoS talk page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm "involved", so I wouldn't take any admin action here, but I want to opine that Darkfrog24 is deliberately editing against the MoS guideline after he failed to get his changes pushed through. He has been asked to stop, as noted above, and he continues to do so under the guise of "making the article consistent", even if it's consistently wrong, apparently. I consider this a form of disruption since he knows what he is doing and he knows it's against consensus. This needs to stop. The damage is far more subtle than overt vandalism, but it also takes more work and expertise to clean up. --Laser brain (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Bad move reverts
I checked my watchlist and saw this, a revert of my moves to article space, fixing naming, renaming per GAN, etc.:
- (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Henry Fielding's early plays to Talk:Henry Fielding's Early Plays over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved The Covent-Garden Tragedy to The Covent Garden Tragedy over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:06 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:The Covent-Garden Tragedy to Talk:The Covent Garden Tragedy over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved East Coker (poem) to User:Ottava Rima/East Coker (poem) over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Little Gidding (poem) to User:Ottava Rima/Little Gidding (poem) over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Sermons of Jonathan Swift to Sermons of Dean Swift over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Sermons of Jonathan Swift to Talk:Sermons of Dean Swift over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Wikipedia:Peer review/Sermons of Jonathan Swift/archive1 to Wikipedia:Peer review/Sermons of Dean Swift/archive1 over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Nicolo Giraud to Nicolò Giraud over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Nicolo Giraud to Talk:Nicolò Giraud over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Christopher Smart's asylum confinement to Christopher Smart's alleged madness over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
- (Move log); 02:05 . . TownDown (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Christopher Smart's asylum confinement to Talk:Christopher Smart's alleged madness over redirect (Pagemove vandalism cleanup)
Ottava Rima (talk) 02:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- For convenience: TownDown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- It looks like Slackr (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) already left them a message asking them to explain themselves [30] (probably ec'd with you). If they don't respond in due time I gather you can safely re-implement these moves while we await a response (could have been a script misfire, for example). –xenotalk 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- And it looks like they've already responded and even apologized [31]. Mistakes happen. Shell babelfish 02:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't blaming him. I just wanted to make sure that the pages could be restored to their proper names, hence why he wasn't named as causing any problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I believe soap (talk · contribs) has reversed the moves, but if any targets require g6'ing, let us know. –xenotalk 02:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused. I'm really glad that it was resolved. I'm pretty sure I won't do it again. --TownDown How's it going? 03:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Banned user Hayden5650 re-editing
I suspect that Hayden4258 (talk · contribs) might be the same as Hayden5650 (talk · contribs) based on the similarity of name, apparently coming from the same country, and some similarity of editing patterns, such as the interest in articles on human races. Since 5650 was banned in 2007, I don't believe a checkuser will be useful. Hayden5650 engaged in extensive sockpuppeting.-gadfium 04:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I come from New Zealand. Don't know how I can prove it. --Hayden4258 (talk) 04:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am aware that you are from New Zealand. So was 5650, or at least he was interested in New Zealand articles. See for example his edits of late July 2007 to Rotorua Boys' High School, Jonah Lomu and David Bain.-gadfium 04:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Without any judgment on whether or not the 4258 version should be blocked, a comprehensive look through both user's contribs pretty much quacks. I'd bet a paycheck these accounts are the same user. Tan | 39 04:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have blocked Hayden4258, between the editing behavior, the nick & the IP range - there was far too much duck like activity. --Versageek 04:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks.-gadfium 05:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have blocked Hayden4258, between the editing behavior, the nick & the IP range - there was far too much duck like activity. --Versageek 04:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Without any judgment on whether or not the 4258 version should be blocked, a comprehensive look through both user's contribs pretty much quacks. I'd bet a paycheck these accounts are the same user. Tan | 39 04:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am aware that you are from New Zealand. So was 5650, or at least he was interested in New Zealand articles. See for example his edits of late July 2007 to Rotorua Boys' High School, Jonah Lomu and David Bain.-gadfium 04:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Possible ARBMAC issue
Being in a new-user-bad-name-scanning state of mind the past few days, I happened across User:XXxLRKistxXx a short ago. Based on the first two edits (user page and talk page) it appeared to be a possible problematic non-NPOV editor. Following up on subsequent edits showed some possible POV-revert-war problems brewing at Delvinë and Berat, possibly among others. (See Special:Contributions/XXxLRKistxXx.) This led to a look at WP:ARBMAC (and the immediate realization that I don't have six months to make heads or tails of which way is up in that quagmire). Long story short, is there anyone on who is up to speed on the ARBMAC-related pages who I can hand this off to? Thanks in advance. --Ckatzchatspy 07:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously a meatpuppet recruited by fellow Albanian POV advocacy account Sarandioti (talk · contribs) and friends [32], to help out in an ongoing revert war. Sarandioti was involved the other day [33] in a discussion involving a couple of other Albanian users about organising themselves on MSN chat [34] to push their agenda more efficiently, so the appearance of new meatpuppets is not too surprising. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Nationalist advocacy? haha Futperf youre not so good at politics are you? Athenian how is Pontos doing? Athenian is tagteaming with Alexikoua, no one is going to do anything about that? --XXxLRKistxXx (talk) 08:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
And im not a meatpuppet. What is the point of this term? Am I not allowed to agree with other users? I have not broken any rules, so stop commneting me like that. This is insulting! --XXxLRKistxXx (talk) 08:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry for the wiki slang – "meatpuppet" is an internal jargon term meaning somebody who is here only because they were recruited by somebody else off-wiki to support them in a dispute. Which is pretty obviously what happened here. This type of external canvassing is very strongly disliked here, especially if the result is intensifying an edit war. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I arrived a bit lately to prevent people from arguing, but anyway im here now. Fut. Perfect as a sign of good faith I myself have stopped editing several articles. I took a step backwards, now its the turn of the other side. They keep removing the albanian name of Konica although it is referenced, and they keep adding greek names in Berat which has no greek community, and in Delvine which has greeks in villgaes not in town. What do you think? --Sarandioti (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- So, would you guys, as a sign of good will, tell us where and how and by whom *LRK* was contacted and recruited to join the fray here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
By no one, he/she joined with his/her own conviction and decision. Why would you think he was recruited? Because of my salutation? Same football team fans have similar salutations, or because of a meeting that hasnt happened yet? --Sarandioti (talk) 09:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Balkanian is also involved in this group: [[36]].Alexikoua (talk) 09:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
What is your exact problem Alexikoua? Is it not allowed to talk to other users? Maybe you should be blocked for such mud-accusations against your fellow editors--Sarandioti (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I would have no problem though to have Future Perfect as Arbitrator. Every party to state its own sources, and why's, and then let him decide. --Sarandioti (talk) 10:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Just for the news Saradioti breached the 3rr in Paramythia: [[37]], [[38]], [[39]], [[40]]. Suppose the msn cooperation didn't worked that good.Alexikoua (talk) 11:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I told you that it was by mistake, I didnt recognise it. --Sarandioti (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
futperf will you become arbitrator in sarande, delvine, berat, konitsa, himare, gjirokaster? or should i ask for arbitration elsewhere or...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarandioti (talk • contribs) 11:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
clone of Portal:Buddhism legal or not?
fyi i found the portal Portal:Buddhism (including edit button) here surrounded with ads and including a paypal donation button (though it seems unclear whom the donation will go to), but without the wikipedia logo and navigation bar on the left, using a php script called wikipedia reflection script. but since ianal can anyone help: is this particular case in accordance with the law and fully compliant with the GFDL requirements, it makes me wonder? oscar (talk) 09:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC) originally posted at [41]
- It's legal to reproduce Wikipedia content elsewhere, although that particular site may be a live mirror. Stifle (talk) 09:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- meaning it's (il)legal? oscar (talk) 09:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If it's a live mirror, it should be reported to m:live mirrors. It probably isn't illegal, but the WMF doesn't like it. Stifle (talk) 11:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- What does that mean, in practical terms? If it "isn't illegal but the WMF doesn't like it", can WMF do anything? LadyofShalott 16:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Content is GFDL, so the copy is perfectly legal. The issue with the live mirror is separate. It means they aren't hosting their own copy of the articles, but instead using the live wikipedia page where our servers get hit for the pageloads on their site. Thats against our terms of use, but not a copyright issue. We just politely ask for them to host a local copy (they can have it autoupdate once a day or the like to keep it current) and if they don't, we can fiddle around with technical stuff to make it harder for them to use the live page. --Mask? 18:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- What does that mean, in practical terms? If it "isn't illegal but the WMF doesn't like it", can WMF do anything? LadyofShalott 16:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- If it's a live mirror, it should be reported to m:live mirrors. It probably isn't illegal, but the WMF doesn't like it. Stifle (talk) 11:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- meaning it's (il)legal? oscar (talk) 09:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
User Gillea2k8 - Moved talk pages into main space
Gillea2k8 (talk · contribs) has moved a couple of user talk pages into article space. See here and here.
Can somebody put these pages back where they belong? William Avery (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Concerns regarding removal of info on Sathya Sai Baba
Sathya Sai Baba is a very controversial topic in India. Here, the media remains largely silent about it. All coverage of the individual in reputable western media has been strongly critical. In Sai Baba related pages on wikipedia we are facing some major issues, which I attempt to outline below.
- Continual blanking of critical and well sourced information by IPs, newly registered editors and people who apparently consider sai baba their god ( which can be evidenced by several comments to the effect on the article's talk). This blanking happens completely in violation of wikipedia policies. Some of the recent edit comments include: "I know that the changes I made where right"[42], "I add \ed thta because I know what to do"[43], "I changed it because this is offensive to a lot of people, and it isn't even true"[44], "My dad was in Puttaparthi his whole life and this never happened"[45]- just to point out a few. It is quite difficult, if not completely impossible, to engage in rational arguments with people making changes with "rationale" like these.
- Section blanking, deletion of clips revealing cheating in purported miracles( which can be seen in this version: [46])- the article is continually subject to such attacks. And the way the people who want the info out work make it impossible to fix these without getting quickly reverted and attacked.
- "Info", self-advertisement by any standard, sourced directly to the controversial sai baba organization cover entire sections now. All this material is completely in violation of WP:RS.
- Slander and attack against neutral editors. Almost 100% of info from respectable sources on this person is critical in nature - be it The BBC, The Guardian, The Times or The DTV. Editors adding well sourced material are targeted by and slandered by the Sai Baba group on their websites and blogs. Which makes many editors scared to contribute to the article and just stay away from it.[47]. Even people like Robert Priddy have had their character assassinated by the group's lies and propaganda. I had personally used an alternate account, of which I had informed the arbcom, to edit the article. Mainly because it is an extremely controversial topic in India and there have been attempts at life on many critics including elderly people[48]. People related to the sai baba organization had an SPI slyly raised against me to ascertain my identity. The admin, initially confused my alternate account for a sock and ended up revealing my details. Later investigations revealed that my alternate account was just a legitimate alternate account and was never used in an abusive manner - and thus my account was unblocked. I was further attacked by editors who wanted me not contributing to the namespace - which led to me deciding to stop contributing to the article. Recently I was taken aback by how all well sourced information was being removed and replaced with self-sourced praise and attempted to point out the issue on talk and fix it - with little effect. Even if I try to re-add the well sourced info - it would just be quickly blanked again. Further attempts could only result in an unconstructive edit-war, which, obviously, I want to avoid by all means.
Dilip rajeev (talk) 09:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, this has happened before, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba 2 among other pages. I'm not sure ANI is going to be able to help you much, although if you tell us what you want us to do, we might be able to help. Otherwise, WP:DR is where you need to be. Stifle (talk) 10:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I dont see any straight forward solution to the problem. If this fails, I'll try WP:DR. I had attempted to restore the June 2nd version of the article - where the images were intact and there was
littlemuch less self sourced material. Perhaps, I'll make another attempt to restore the content. Most of the recent onslaught has been by User:Awesome108 ( whose edit summaries I point out above) and User:Sbs108. It might help to inform these editors that wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and the article's content must be based on Reliable Sources. And also that primary sources should be used sparingly - especially when the primary source is considered very controversial nature. - Dilip rajeev (talk) 13:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I dont see any straight forward solution to the problem. If this fails, I'll try WP:DR. I had attempted to restore the June 2nd version of the article - where the images were intact and there was
Matt Giwer (talk · contribs) is known on Usenet as a kook and anti-Semite, this editor is trying here what he knows he can't get away with -- in Cyrus (Bible) his edit [49] says "Look folks this is such total bullshit I cannot imagine Wikipedia ever let it be posted. I realize this is not a proper edit and I invite the wrath of the wiki gods upon me for entering this. And they know who I am as I am logged in. I hope this will be eliminated as soon as I figure out how to start a discussion group with addresses all of the bible based religion nonsense" (since reverted of course). I'd appreciate it if other Admins stepped in so he doesn't just think it's me against him. I won't link to his website but it's easily found, as are comments about him on Nizkor.org. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 09:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Reverted as completely inappropriate. After reviewing his recent edits, I'm tempted toward a block of undetermined length since he's obviously not performing any constructive edits. Thoughts? — Huntster (t • @ • c) 10:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes reverting was the right thing to do, I have to say I am not sure that this anti-Semite claim is appropriate considering the circumstances, after all we are supposed to assume good faith WP:AGF and such here on wikipedia and then there is this no personal attacks thingy WP:NPA so lets just try to be polite here and work in the spirit of wikipedia and such. I took a quick look at this guys edit history 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and while these don't seem to be the most productive edits made to wikipedia they don't seem to be bad faith edits either, you speak of performing a block of undetermined length on this user and I have to say that I would disapprove of such action at this point since I do believe that every user should be given the opportunity to become a positive contributor to wikipedia. Also an indefinite block at this time would sorta have the feel of admin abuse of power so please lets just handle this in a calm and clear headed way.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh yes I also informed this user of the ANI discussion taking place regarding him here, lets see if we'll get to hear what he has to say about these matters.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, I meant to do that but real life today has been hectic, constant interruptions. Having seen his posts for 15 years (according to his edit on my talk page that's how long he's been at it), GF, etc. give way to experience I'm afraid. Googling on his name might give some context to my comments and show his website, etc so others can see where I am coming from, as they say. Dougweller (talk) 11:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh yes I also informed this user of the ANI discussion taking place regarding him here, lets see if we'll get to hear what he has to say about these matters.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Considering that vandalism-only accounts are routinely indef blocked, I don't see how it could be construed as abuse of power. Personally, I see these edits as intentional disruption, but as I rarely perform blocks, I prefer uninvolved persons to voice opinions. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 12:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Is this your everyday vandalism? It's not like all this user is doing is blanking pages and performing pranks here. I must say that I actually do believe that I am "beating a dead horse" here in a way since I don't really believe that this will end in any other way than a rightful indefinite block but I don't think that this is the time for such a block to be made and I do think that we should give this editor every opportunity to change his behavior before such a block comes along.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 12:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Considering that vandalism-only accounts are routinely indef blocked, I don't see how it could be construed as abuse of power. Personally, I see these edits as intentional disruption, but as I rarely perform blocks, I prefer uninvolved persons to voice opinions. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 12:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
As I said in a long form post which did not appear here, I have mostly explained why there are no references as noted in the top header. There is no possible references but the bible. Nothing of interest found in the bible appears in real history or in archaeology in Israel.
The first appearance of the OT stories is in the Septuagint. Nothing older is in evidence. The Jews first appear in history in Roman times. This is also a fact.
As most of my edits have been little more than pointing out those facts, why is there a problem?
Now if these articles are to be simply bible study recitations fine with me. I suggest they should say so. But they do not. AND the top header says they do not because they have no references.
As it stands the OT is no different from the Book of Mormon as it discusses fanciful events which are without the least historical or archaeological evidence.
Why do people have a problem with that being identified as the reason there are no references? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Giwer (talk • contribs) 12:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- In the face of the diffs, edit history, and the above comment, I don't think that we need to extend good faith to the point of absurdity with an obvious POV SPA. I've indefblocked the account (review welcome as always). EyeSerenetalk 13:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Endorse indefinite block. (Full disclosure: I remember him from Usenet, a hundred or so moons ago, when grass was greener, men were real men, and the best of the trolls could take on an Arcturan Mega-Donkey -- and lose with full dignity and honour.) ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Endorse permaban edits like this constitute vandalism in addition to shameless POV pushing. --Miacek (t) 15:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The editor in question has a point, though. The article generally discusses biblical references to events without endorsing their accuracy. But "the Mosaic era" is referenced as if a known historical era, like the reign of Ramses II. It's an open question as to whether Moses existed or was an allegorical figure; scholars disagree on this. Writing about "the Mosaic era" is "in-universe writing" in Wikipedia terms, and we generally discourage that. A bit of rewording there would solve the problem. It just needs a lighter touch than the editor in question is applying. --John Nagle (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Again, needing an uninvolved Administrator
Recent activities make me very wary about dealing with something where I've even put a reference. Eye2Eye35 (talk · contribs), also editing from their IP address (they signed it once, as well as Quack test) as 125.196.5.232 (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly deleting text from Talk:Jabal al-Lawz - thankfully I haven't been the only one putting it back. Also, in the article itself, the editor has been changing referenced text from 'almonds', which is what the reference says, to 'laws'. Dougweller (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'll help you keep an eye on that nut case. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- User(s) blocked.. The only contributions by the account were vandalism and they continued even after their final warning. Clear-cut case imho. Regards SoWhy 12:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Kudos. The IP is only blocked for 24 hours, but the behavior pattern is obvious enough to ring a bell the next time. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. It was clear cut, but as I said, I'd edited the article, so I didn't want to do the block. Dougweller (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The simple approach is to report the vandal(s) to WP:AIV. That nearly always produces good and quick results in a clear-cut case such as this one. I have taken the liberty of marking this as "resolved". It it comes back, take it straight to AIV. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. It was clear cut, but as I said, I'd edited the article, so I didn't want to do the block. Dougweller (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Kudos. The IP is only blocked for 24 hours, but the behavior pattern is obvious enough to ring a bell the next time. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- User(s) blocked.. The only contributions by the account were vandalism and they continued even after their final warning. Clear-cut case imho. Regards SoWhy 12:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Methinks that one takes original research to a whole new level, so to speak. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It would certainly be etymologically interesting if the Arabic word transliterated as "lawz" turned out to be from the same root as "laws". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Law is Anglo Saxon (very old) by way of northern Europe. French loi strikes me as an oddly old cognate. Any link these may have with Latin lex (English legal) seems hazy at most, some of these root words do link up way back with ancient Sanskrit. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not here though, I think: اللوز means almond and the transliteration to lawz is not all that meaningful or even wonted. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The user is trying to make some karmic connection between Mount of "Laws" and the Ten Commandments. He's basically trying to impose a religious viewpoint of some kind. Hence his attempts to switch BCE to BC, and CD to AD. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- In New England liars is pronounced rather closely to laws (cue spooky music and FX, fade to black). Gwen Gale (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- The user is trying to make some karmic connection between Mount of "Laws" and the Ten Commandments. He's basically trying to impose a religious viewpoint of some kind. Hence his attempts to switch BCE to BC, and CD to AD. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- It would certainly be etymologically interesting if the Arabic word transliterated as "lawz" turned out to be from the same root as "laws". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Methinks that one takes original research to a whole new level, so to speak. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
62.3.107.196 and Xming
General heads-up that this IP (which says it's Colin Harrison, author of the software in question) is going around making legal threats and generally not behaving itself on that talk page (including taking a rather liberal approach to editing others' comments). This has been going on since at least 2007, but the legal threats are a new and exciting addition. (Attempted resolution deleted from user talk.) Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The article is mostly referenced to StraightRunning.com. However, if you click on any of those references, you get redirected to File:Chrispirate.jpg. Does this make it unreferencable, and hence not notable? *looks innocent* --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed the "release method" section as lacking any independent sourcing and possible original research. Meanwhile I don't see any meaningful independent coverage of this topic other than listings at software sites and forum/mail comments by some users. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- He's been obsessed with my pirate picture for two years now. The server-side redirect (which is based on the Wikipedia referer: works fine if you just paste the URL) now goes to one of Gronky's rants about me for some reason. I suppose one day I should get serious about getting that particular piece of soapboxing removed as well. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Suicide threat
Could an independent admin look at User talk:TheChosenEditor please. — Tivedshambo (t/c) 18:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Kingturtle and addresses
User:Kingturtle decided that school addresses were not encyclopedic, so he's deleting as many as he can find -- despite the address field in {{Infobox school}} and his not having discussed it there at any point. In the middle of the run, he changed WP:NOT to support his changes. When I challenged him, he stated that he had posted to talk pages with no response -- but Infobox school wasn't one of those places. He has continued the removal run despite my challenge without further discussion.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- (ecx3)Correction -- he only did one more, then responded again.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Run continuing -- unstruck comment above.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I support the removal. This is not a directory. In fact, he could probably do it more quickly by just modifying the template to ignore the address parameter, right? Wknight94 talk 18:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Old WP:NOT phrasing: Directories, directory entries, electronic program guide, or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, current schedules, et cetera, although mention of major events, promotions or historically significant programme lists and schedules (such as the annual United States network television schedules) may be acceptable. Furthermore, the Talk pages associated with an article are for talking about the article, not for conducting the business of the topic of the article. Wikipedia is not the yellow pages.
- Kingturtle's new phrasing: The White or Yellow Pages. Street addresses of stores, schools, fire departments, parlors, etc. are not encyclopedic, unless the building or lot has particular historic significance (such as 10 Downing Street, Raffles Hotel or Palacio Barolo). Contact information (such as phone numbers, fax numbers and email addresses) is (almost) never encyclopedic.
- Changing WP:NOT to support the edits you want to make worries me.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Wuhwuzdat is reverting all my prod removals. Can someone inform him anyone is allowed to remove prods if they want? -- Biaswarrior (talk) 19:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Can somebody please notify Biaswarrior that his war isn't welcome here, as Wikipedia is NOT a battleground? Wuhwuzdat (talk) 19:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Being an inclusionist isn't a battleground. If you don't like it, list all the articles for AFD. After following WP:BEFORE, of course. -- Biaswarrior (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Same problem with User:Jimbo online. You shouldn't get to list articles for proposed deletion and then edit war anyone who disagrees. -- Biaswarrior (talk) 19:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see what admin action is required here, but FWIW, I do agree that WP:BEFORE only applies to AfD'd articles and not prodded articles. However, WP:CONTESTED would appear to side with Biaswarrior, particularly the phrase "If the edit is not obviously vandalism, do not restore the [prod] tag, even if the tag was apparently removed in bad faith." KuyaBriBriTalk 19:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Amusing that biaswarrior has brought themselves here before anyone else could. Clear single purpose account, probably a sock judging by their acquaintance (if you can call it that) with procedures. Would an admin please have a look at the rest of their contributions in the half hour they have been here. Quantpole (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I smell a sock of User:Biasprotector. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Biaswarrior: read the messages above. Wikipedia isn't a battleground nor is it a place for you to disrupt to make a point. Looking over your contributions it looks like that's what you are here to do and if you continue to do so you will be blocked. Also Biaswarrior's edits so far indicate he's probably a sock of somebody. ThemFromSpace 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) A brand new account called "biaswarrior". Hmm... First edit was to create userpage saying he was an ARS member. Second edit was to jump into some kind of policy debate at the ARS talk page arguing that "we should require that people listen to WP:BEFORE before listing articles at AFD."[50]. He then goes on his de-prodding spree/keep voting at AFD's including an argument of "Failure to follow WP:BEFORE should be considered a violation of WP:CIVIL and against WP:CONSENSUS. A discussion among the people who happen to come here is inadequate. Use the talk page and give it an adequate period of time before deletion"[51] in favor of retaining this article, whose text i will repeat in its entirety: A figure of speech by which the last word of one sentence becomes the first word of the next. For example: "We don't like idiots. Idiots are useless."It is more usually called anadiplosis." To be blunt, Biaswarrior (talk · contribs) is either a sockpuppet of a banned user, or a sockpuppet of a user in good standing who wants to grind their particular axe without the attendant scrutiny that comes with it, and we should not tolerate this kind of nonesense for long.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- To Biaswarrior (talk · contribs), I note that you have been removing PROD's and !voting "Keep" at AfD's at a rate of several per minute. This suggests to me that you have not looked at the rationale for either the PROD or the AfD and are making WP:POINTy edits in referring to WP:BEFORE - this is disruptive. If you do not cease you are liable to be blocked for the disruption to the encyclopedia. For the sake of clarity, this is an official level3 warning - continue and you will be blocked from editing the encyclopedia. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This started when I updated the map and left a comment on the article Algeria, showing the different professional styles of the Algeria maps and previously added on the article where's a administrator allowed it after my edit. But JdeJ was reverting all my contributions....
Article Conflicts;
JdeJ saying "here have been long discussions on which maps to use" here, but I read all the historial before, and there's nothing about, but yes with some european articles maps, so I reverted it saying "In this country not, Africa has not European countries consensus" here, but JdeJ again reverted me saying "Your edits start to look increasingly like vandalism" here. So I reverted saying "don't accuse me of vandalism, there's a consensus about the map" here, and finally an admin came there here, and the user JdeJ didn't revert again.
Article's Talk Page Conflicts;
As I said I wrote about the map here but JdeJ insult my english and accused me to convince others about quality of my maps or dragging in other contributors' nationalities here, then I told him don't accuses me because can be reported here.
Warnings deleted;
Now JdeJ deleted my warnings that I wrote him when he's accusing me of vandalism and dragging in other contributors' nationalities or even of personal attacks as unfounded warnings here, JdeJ is of course well-meaning, but has repeatedly brought in unrelated or personal opinions to a discussion about article content or subject notability.--TownDown How's it going? 19:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This is overdue, probably: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid Editing. Given that this (and related WP:COI issues) seem to be coming up more and more, I've launched this basic RFC. We've never had an actual community discussion or mandate about this. Please review the statements, leave yours, endorse as you see fit. Should make for an interesting and enlightening discussion. rootology (C)(T) 19:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)