Italiavivi (talk | contribs) →Admin [[User:Hu12]] accusing me of 'personal attacks against policy': Re, this is not about the MfD. |
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:Agreed, this is an issue for MfD, not here. ([[User:Until(1 == 2)|(<font color="blue">1 <font color="maroon">==</font> 2</font>)]] ? ([[User talk:Until(1 == 2)|('<font color="maroon">Stop</font>') : ('<font color="Green">Go</font>')]]) 16:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
:Agreed, this is an issue for MfD, not here. ([[User:Until(1 == 2)|(<font color="blue">1 <font color="maroon">==</font> 2</font>)]] ? ([[User talk:Until(1 == 2)|('<font color="maroon">Stop</font>') : ('<font color="Green">Go</font>')]]) 16:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
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::Because [[User:Hu12]] has been following me around with a cloud of bad faith ever since an AfD we disagreed on, making it impossible for me to avoid his mini-conflicts. He has falsely accused me of "personal attacks," and I wish for intervention against his new focus on me. [[User:Italiavivi|Italia]]<sup>[[User_talk:Italiavivi|vivi]]</sup> 18:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
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Bmedley Sutler, still
Bmedley Sutler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
This guy just will not stop taking shots at me. Here he is implying that anyone who supported me in my RfA is a bigot and homophobe.[1] Here he is baiting and taunting me, and accusing me of being a racist, because I do not choose to assist him in researching his pet POV project.[2][3] These are the same types of constant attacks that FAAFA used to pull off, a user banned for a year by ARBCOM, and who Bmedley has already admitted to editing in proxy for. How long is the community going to continue to assume good faith regarding this probable sockpuppet, when even he does not extend the same good faith to the community, judging by my first diff? I'm not sticking around tonight to bicker over this. I'll check in tomorrow. - Crockspot 05:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is 100% false. "probable sockpuppet" is a NPA too. He or his friends already made one harrassing RFCU on me that came back empty. I am trying to help Crockspots really. (refactor taunt) My last post I said that I was through with this issue since Crockpots made it so clear that he lacked any interest in what I asked him about documenting racism. I dont even know why hes bringing it up now except I think he is very sore that I was the one who posted those links to what he wrote on that other site. This whole issue is dead now. Except now he wants to re-live it here. Why, I ask. •smedleyΔbutler• 06:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- You two. First, let's not goad with references to quotes brought up at the RFA. Second, Crockspot, if you suspect him to be a sockpuppet, please take the case to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets and file a report there with plenty of evidence and a minimum of drama. Third, editing for banned users is explicitly prohibited. There's no diff for that, so that's all I'm saying for now.--Chaser - T 06:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm a bystander who opposes racism but hasn't edited William Regnery II. I'm opposed to axe murders too but I haven't edited this either. Does this make me a racist with a hatchet? Really Bmedley Sutler, stop it. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Crockspot's edits or former RfA, its not helped by disingenuous "suggestions" such as the ones you made above. Repeatedly misspelling his user-name isn't especially adult either. How about leaving him alone and get on with contributing to the encyclopedia?
- As an aside I agree with Chaser re the sockpuppet allegations. If there is evidence, take it to the proper forum. Otherwise, leave it alone. Euryalus 06:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. I told him in my last post that I was through with this suggestion since he said he would not help anyway. This report from him was not needed and his accusation was an NPA. I will try not to mis-spell his name. Pot and Pots are the same meaning anyway. A Crockpot is an electric pot for making stew, yes? •smedleyΔbutler• 06:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent for general comment)For now, just stay away from each other. Wiki is a huge place, there is no need, if you don't get along, to talk to each other, or edit the same articles, just don't do it. Mr. Sutler, I have some sympathey for some of your positions, but if you go out of your way to interact with crockspot, I will be at your WP:CSN, as quick as anyone (and vice-versa. . .take that how you will --in either case). Wikipedia is not a battleground (stop making it one!) and if you see it that way, you're in the wrong place (not speaking to anyone in particluar). Respectfully, R. Baley 07:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)(comment strike at 18:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC) by R. Baley)
Bmedley has already been blocked by User:Thatcher131 for 24 hours for taunting and another 24 hours for acting as a proxy for FAAFA. He was warned that this would be his only warning [4][5]. He continues to taunt by reposting the RfA quotes. This is the noticeboard that needs to take action against this, not SSP. The issue is taunting, not sockpuppetry and it continues even after a 24 hr block. --Tbeatty 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- IMO, the above post is a harrassment. The 'only' warning was about making proxy posts for that FAAFA. I have seen lots of warnings for NPA and taunting. No one gets an 'only' warning for such things like quoting what someone actually wrote on another site. He wrote those things, not me! No offense but IMO Tbeatty is maybe on purposely mis-stating what happenned to get administrator action taken on me. IMO, he is part of an organized group and campaign that continuingly harrass Seven of Diamonds, Giovanni33, me, and a few others to try and ban leftists who resist them. If this harrassment continues I will be making an action on them. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is the exact wording:
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--Tbeatty
- Tbeatty's comment is correctly pointing out that you are continuing some of the behavior that led to a block. That is not harrassment. Also, this thread is about your behavior, and has nothing to do with neither Giovanni nor SOD. Pablo Talk | Contributions 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Look who shows up! Where are the others? The 'only' warning was about proxy editing for that FAAFA. Tbeatty, IMO, tries to make it sound like I got an 'only' warning for NPA or 'taunting'. I have seen some editors post NPA attacks dozens of times with only warnings, not even blocks. Now Tbeatty is pushing for an action? This is too funny. Why is it the same 4-6 editors show up where ever I post? Is this not Wikistalking? This harrassment must stop. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- No one follows yur posts. You end up on AN/I. You end up on AN/I because you are trolling. The fact that a majority of your posts are defending yourself on AN/I is not evidence of other people stalking you. --Tbeatty 08:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- You actually argued the opposite point regarding MONGO. Stating the numerous AN/I posts regarding him are proof of harassment and trolling. Two sets of rules? --SevenOfDiamonds 12:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- No one follows yur posts. You end up on AN/I. You end up on AN/I because you are trolling. The fact that a majority of your posts are defending yourself on AN/I is not evidence of other people stalking you. --Tbeatty 08:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Look who shows up! Where are the others? The 'only' warning was about proxy editing for that FAAFA. Tbeatty, IMO, tries to make it sound like I got an 'only' warning for NPA or 'taunting'. I have seen some editors post NPA attacks dozens of times with only warnings, not even blocks. Now Tbeatty is pushing for an action? This is too funny. Why is it the same 4-6 editors show up where ever I post? Is this not Wikistalking? This harrassment must stop. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Tbeatty's comment is correctly pointing out that you are continuing some of the behavior that led to a block. That is not harrassment. Also, this thread is about your behavior, and has nothing to do with neither Giovanni nor SOD. Pablo Talk | Contributions 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thats it! "Bmedley, please quit playing stupid. No one buys it, and it is infuriating. Thanks, Pablo Talk | Contributions 07:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC) I should not be attacked because I have not yet mastered English! I ask that Pablo gets a 24 hr block for NPA. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I ask that Tbeatty gets a 24 hr block for his NPA saying I am trolling too. This harassment and Wikistalking from the same small group must stop! •smedleyΔbutler• 08:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Further, there is no consensus among admins that NPA violations ever warrant a block. I suggest you drop this and find an article to edit. You seem to be involved in a one-sided battle. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Isolated personal attacks are rarely blockable, but deliberate and repeated personal attacks, incitement, and treating Wikipedia as an ideological battleground are indeed blockable and even bannable, if not by the community then by ArbCom. Bmedley has several agendas and he needs to be told that agenda-driven editing is incompatible with Wikipedia's goals and philosophy. Thatcher131 11:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have raised this issue previously on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, and have provided other evidence linking this account with FAAFA's to Thatcher131 via email, along with past arbitration principles (including one from the arbcom that FAAFA was banned under) that show that there is more than enough evidence to treat this user as FAAFA. No serious action has yet been taken. I have even been told by admins in email that they are certain that they are the same editor, but that banned users should be given a chance to return and edit positively. Well this editor has maintained the same patterns of behavior that got FAAFA banned, fighting with the same users. From the day that Bmedley appeared, he has showed up in articles that I have long showed an interest in and attempted to disrupt by making suggestions that clearly do not meet our sourcing, npov, and OR policies and guidelines. He makes all too familiar suggestions that if other editors don't help him prove X, then they must be Xists. He says he has not mastered english, but sometimes in discussion, he slips into perfect english, like it was his mother tongue. I wonder what his claimed mother tongue is, and would like to see him converse in it in real time with someone else who speaks that language. I have only posted the latest diffs, because a significant percentage of his edits in discussion and talk contain cheap shots and attacks. If I have to take the time to document every single one, I will bring them before the arbitration committee, not here. - Crockspot 12:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
If repeated personal attacks are bannable (sp?) ... well it seems someone should have been banned by now for their attacks on me. Things on AN/I seem to go in one direction only. Also what is classified as "fighting" with the same users should be looked at from the other side. If those users believe he is FAAFA, then perhaps they are fighting with him on purpose. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Which "someone" are you referring to? I have been showing an incredible amount of patience and restraint, and am not getting satisfactory action. - Crockspot 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not you, just a general point since my name was brought up here, I am starting to become a celebrity of sorts and would prefer people just let me edit in peace without subjecting me to WikiLaw & Politics 101. I am pointing out the irony of the situation. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well in my case, I have been trying to avoid conflict with Bmedley, to the point where he has driven me away from editing articles I have long been interested in. If anyone cares to notice, I am keeping my contributions mostly to discussion. In the article linked above, I even provided him a link and some information to assist and guide him to doing accurate research on this topic, but that was not good enough for him, so I must be a racist. I've had about enough. - Crockspot 12:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am in a similar situation in a further case of irony. I cannot edit articles related to one of my interests because I am afraid I will be compared to anyone else in my city editing it. I know the feeling, however it is probably for the best, and with all the articles on Wikipedia, I learned it is better to avoid the dramatists and just find something else to edit. Luckily I find peace in other articles that I am sure the "political" people on Wikipedia will have little interest in. Something that may help you, visit your local bookstore and pickup a book about a topic you enjoy. Hopefully it will have some useful information for you to add to an article. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- So your suggestion to solve the problem of an abusive sockpuppet in direct violation of an arbitration ruling is to go read a nice book? Perhaps I'm the one who needs to leave Wikipedia. - Crockspot 12:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- One suggestion is that calling each other names will not solve the issue. Is there a solution here? You want him banned on account he is a sockpuppet, something you will not bring to the appropriate venue to check. He thinks he has disengaged from you, and you keep bringing up the issue to stir drama. My suggestion as other suggested is to avoid eachother. It is a big encyclopedia. My suggestion to you, if you are here to help the encyclopedia, is to help expand articles, instead of fighting over what should and should not be in them. There are tons of articles that can use expansion and citations, pick one and enjoy the Zen of editing in near peace. Avoiding the dramatic will make you a better editor in my humble opinion. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- This colloquy is rather beside the point; Seven will have ample opportunity to address his concerns in the pending Arbitration case. As for Bmedley, I know he is in contact with FAAFA but I do not believe he is a sock or meat puppet (that is, I don't believe he has directly acted on a request by FAAFA since I blocked him for it). I do think he is driven by an agenda, and he needs to adjust his behavior. Thatcher131 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- One suggestion is that calling each other names will not solve the issue. Is there a solution here? You want him banned on account he is a sockpuppet, something you will not bring to the appropriate venue to check. He thinks he has disengaged from you, and you keep bringing up the issue to stir drama. My suggestion as other suggested is to avoid eachother. It is a big encyclopedia. My suggestion to you, if you are here to help the encyclopedia, is to help expand articles, instead of fighting over what should and should not be in them. There are tons of articles that can use expansion and citations, pick one and enjoy the Zen of editing in near peace. Avoiding the dramatic will make you a better editor in my humble opinion. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- So your suggestion to solve the problem of an abusive sockpuppet in direct violation of an arbitration ruling is to go read a nice book? Perhaps I'm the one who needs to leave Wikipedia. - Crockspot 12:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am in a similar situation in a further case of irony. I cannot edit articles related to one of my interests because I am afraid I will be compared to anyone else in my city editing it. I know the feeling, however it is probably for the best, and with all the articles on Wikipedia, I learned it is better to avoid the dramatists and just find something else to edit. Luckily I find peace in other articles that I am sure the "political" people on Wikipedia will have little interest in. Something that may help you, visit your local bookstore and pickup a book about a topic you enjoy. Hopefully it will have some useful information for you to add to an article. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- (EC) Thanks Thatcher, I was of course replying to Bmedley's demand that Tbeatty be blocked for 24 hours, but I should probably have clarified my comments more. Certainly if Bmedley continues to disrupt the project then that would be a different situation. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't realize which comment you were referring to. Thatcher131 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, it was clear in my head, why wasn't it clear in yours? :P Seriously, thanks for making it clear to me how unclear I'd been. KillerChihuahua?!? 13:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't realize which comment you were referring to. Thatcher131 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well in my case, I have been trying to avoid conflict with Bmedley, to the point where he has driven me away from editing articles I have long been interested in. If anyone cares to notice, I am keeping my contributions mostly to discussion. In the article linked above, I even provided him a link and some information to assist and guide him to doing accurate research on this topic, but that was not good enough for him, so I must be a racist. I've had about enough. - Crockspot 12:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not you, just a general point since my name was brought up here, I am starting to become a celebrity of sorts and would prefer people just let me edit in peace without subjecting me to WikiLaw & Politics 101. I am pointing out the irony of the situation. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Which "someone" are you referring to? I have been showing an incredible amount of patience and restraint, and am not getting satisfactory action. - Crockspot 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- That blocks are preventative, not punitive is understood, but Bmedley's behavior issues are ongoing and show no shows of stopping. He's been blocked twice (and just missed a third), how long do we have to put up with unprovoked taunting like this? I don't see a consensus to block now, but I hope that we put him on a very short leash and make the next block longer. RxS 13:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Count me as another support for a block for BMedley. I opposed at Crockspot's RfA, but ruthlessly dogging the guy isn't acceptable behavior. His actions in the past are worth NOTING for an RfA, but NOT strong enough nor valid enough to pursue any sort of consequences on wikipedia for him, like banning him as some sort of agenda warrior. You can't go around harrassing him with that forever, BMedley, an the fact that you're not listening here, as Strangelove notes above, weighs more, to me at least, than Crockspot's old actions. I think that they once blocked his RfA is probably the end of their viability as leverage against him. We all saw it, and we acted upon it to our consciences. You need to leave him alone. (Yes, I realize it's bizarre that I'm defending Crockspot, but different situations are different.) ThuranX 15:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I dont think those are FAAFAs pictures unless you know something I dont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmedley Sutler (talk • contribs) 23:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
- Count me as another support for a block for BMedley. I opposed at Crockspot's RfA, but ruthlessly dogging the guy isn't acceptable behavior. His actions in the past are worth NOTING for an RfA, but NOT strong enough nor valid enough to pursue any sort of consequences on wikipedia for him, like banning him as some sort of agenda warrior. You can't go around harrassing him with that forever, BMedley, an the fact that you're not listening here, as Strangelove notes above, weighs more, to me at least, than Crockspot's old actions. I think that they once blocked his RfA is probably the end of their viability as leverage against him. We all saw it, and we acted upon it to our consciences. You need to leave him alone. (Yes, I realize it's bizarre that I'm defending Crockspot, but different situations are different.) ThuranX 15:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Time to take action?
It seems clear from the above, if nothing else, that Bmedley is disruptive. In addition to any other issues, he has demanded that two editors be blocked for 24 hours each for perceived personal attacks - neither of which is blockable - which indicates he is making any dispute a personal battle. This wastes everyone's time. Is there support for more substantial action about this, above and beyond the patient explanations everyone has been giving him? mentorship? Some kind of parole? Community ban? KillerChihuahua?!? 14:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest on-wiki mentorship or something for all those involved- Tbeatty, Mongo, Crock, Seven, and the rest. There has been at least four or five issues within this troupe in the past few weeks. Maybe it all started at Crock's RfA; in any case, that's when I noticed it. But the repetitious bad faith, personal attacks, and appearances on AN/I asking for each other's blocks is not helping the wiki at all. David Fuchs (talk) 14:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would actually love a mentor, however it may not be needed since I do not participate in drama filled political articles anymore. However if another admin would like to assist in guiding me, that would be more than welcome. I have questions abound. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure but something needs to be done. The disruption, edit warring, incivility, etc... is getting to out of hand. Perhaps an admin mentor who will keep an eye on the user would be helpful.--Jersey Devil 14:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- How about a ban from political articles for anyone who participates in an AN/I posting against the other? That would be interesting. If the behavior is bad, someone else is sure to notice it and report it themselves. Cleans up AN/I and maybe gives some users a much needed break from hot topics. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- That would be a very bad precedent, as it would permit any troll to pull a legitimate editor off of an article by harassing them on AN/I. THF 16:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- How about a ban from political articles for anyone who participates in an AN/I posting against the other? That would be interesting. If the behavior is bad, someone else is sure to notice it and report it themselves. Cleans up AN/I and maybe gives some users a much needed break from hot topics. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure but something needs to be done. The disruption, edit warring, incivility, etc... is getting to out of hand. Perhaps an admin mentor who will keep an eye on the user would be helpful.--Jersey Devil 14:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would actually love a mentor, however it may not be needed since I do not participate in drama filled political articles anymore. However if another admin would like to assist in guiding me, that would be more than welcome. I have questions abound. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think my feelings are clear, I don't know how long we have to put up with this type of behavior. It's probably too soon for a full ban, but a longer block is absolutely in order. Any one who looks at his talk page/archive can see all the warnings...he's an ongoing source of disruption. If there are other editors people have issues with that's fine, but please don't lump them all in here....they are separate issues. RxS 14:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I actually do not think it is all separate issues. It is the same drama from the same group, my self included up until I just gave up and walked away from the articles. I have actually recommended others such as Crockspot and Smedley do the same. There are plenty of articles on Wikipedia to edit, which is why I decided to more focus on narco-terror related articles. I was pushed out by the same people calling for Smedleys ban. The same people who are on AN/I everyday calling for the ban of what can only be classified as another upset "left leaning" editor. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I also want to make something clear before some clever person wiki links it. I do not think there is a cabal, but how often do you see the same editors calling for a ban of someone they are in conflicts with. I am sure its a possibility that editors from all over possibly gravitate to them to ca use them stress, or its something else. Its up to Wikipedia to determine which it is. Believing there is a cabal attacking them, is just as "wacky" as believing they are a cabal. The answer lies obviously in the center somewhere. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am not involved in your arbcom, I only edited a related article one time. Bmedley has been appearing in articles I have a history of contributing to. He went around this weekend and taunted other supposed RW cabalists to help him research his latest interest. This issue has nothing to do with you, it is about Bmedley. Though if he does get dragged into your arbitration, I will be there with bells on, and a list of diffs that will choke a donkey. - Crockspot 15:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I also want to make something clear before some clever person wiki links it. I do not think there is a cabal, but how often do you see the same editors calling for a ban of someone they are in conflicts with. I am sure its a possibility that editors from all over possibly gravitate to them to ca use them stress, or its something else. Its up to Wikipedia to determine which it is. Believing there is a cabal attacking them, is just as "wacky" as believing they are a cabal. The answer lies obviously in the center somewhere. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I actually do not think it is all separate issues. It is the same drama from the same group, my self included up until I just gave up and walked away from the articles. I have actually recommended others such as Crockspot and Smedley do the same. There are plenty of articles on Wikipedia to edit, which is why I decided to more focus on narco-terror related articles. I was pushed out by the same people calling for Smedleys ban. The same people who are on AN/I everyday calling for the ban of what can only be classified as another upset "left leaning" editor. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think anyone looking at the series of warnings/blocks on his talk/archive page will see that a fairly broad range of editors have issued them. I don't think this concern is limited to a small group of editors. RxS 15:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support doing something, with the specific value of "something" being left to community consensus. Dealing with the drama that perpetually surrounds Bmedley has become a time sink, turning Wikipedia from an encyclopedia to a sociological experiment. I don't edit any of the same articles as Bmedley but anyone who has kept up with the proceedings to date can recognize that he's not an innocent party being unjustly persecuted, as he would have it. Raymond Arritt 15:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Isn't Smedley involved in the SevenofDiamonds arbcom case, if he isn't, he should be tossed in there and let arb com deal with him, he's also involved in the same topic. Jaranda wat's sup 15:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, he's not listed at this time, and he has not entered a statement on the case. I'm not so sure about "tossing", but as its all intertwined it does seem like an excellent idea to have it all out at once, rather than piecemeal. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry but my Arbcom is about a specific issue, attempting to lump my Arbcom arbitrarily into another issue seems foolish. Considering the attitudes here. I will present my counter-evidence to Arbcom and leave Wikipedia. The political bickering the exudes from this place once a editor receives a username is beyond comprehension. I should have just stood anonymous, editing without issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, he's not listed at this time, and he has not entered a statement on the case. I'm not so sure about "tossing", but as its all intertwined it does seem like an excellent idea to have it all out at once, rather than piecemeal. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I support a longer term block for disruption, maybe a month or so, with the clear indication to him that the next time he acts up he'll be gone indefinitely. Coddling him and mentorship will not work, since he clearly has it in his mind to be polemic, vitriolic, and disruptive. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- That is clear-cut enough. Supports/disagrees/comments? KillerChihuahua?!? 15:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- See ThuranX's comment immediately preceeding this subsection. - Crockspot 15:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- (EC) With regard to mentorship etc., admins can only warn, threaten and then block. With regard to blocks being preventative, not punative: yes, but sometimes prevention takes the form of blocking people so that they learn we are serious about enforcing community norms of behavior. Regarding action toward Bmedley at this time, I would suggest opening a user conduct RFC. One of Bmedley's complaints is that he is attacked by the same small group of users. So I would post a notice of the RFC on the CSN asking people who have never been involved with Bmedley to review the case and offer input. If the combined weight of many experienced Wikipedians does not convince Bmedley to change his attitude and approach, we would have the basis for either strong community action or Arbitration. Regarding Jaranda's comment, ArbCom sees this as a case against Seven (see particularly JamesF's acceptance vote) and ArbCom frankly does very poorly with blanket cases whose scope keeps expanding. It would be better to open a separate case against Bmedley. However, they usually will not review a case without a prior RFC, and ArbCom would only be needed after the RFC if there was a serious disagreement among admins as to how to handle the situation (as there is with Seven). We don't need ArbCom to spend two months to endorse a long block, topic ban, or site ban for a user who persistently "doesn't get it" as long as there is consensus among us admins. Thatcher131 15:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd agree to this block, and agree that Arbcom doesn't necessarily need to be involved at this point. RxS 15:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not totally a disagreement with a block (he certainly "doesn't get it"), but Bmedley certainly isn't the only one in this situation who is being polemic, vitriolic or disruptive, as SwatJester put it. David Fuchs was correct above. ELIMINATORJR 15:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Unless you are referring to me, which I don't think that you are, the other people are all involved in an arbcom, and will have their behavior investigated fully. This notice is a complaint by me against a single user. All these other distractions are just that, distractions. - Crockspot 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not totally a disagreement with a block (he certainly "doesn't get it"), but Bmedley certainly isn't the only one in this situation who is being polemic, vitriolic or disruptive, as SwatJester put it. David Fuchs was correct above. ELIMINATORJR 15:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with a month long block and do see it as a preventative block as per the comments made by Thatcher. I'm not sure a user conduct RFC would be appropriate as it would just make the process needlessly longer for something we all already know (that the user is causing a disturbance to normal wikipedia processes). But if you guys would like to go that direction I'd be fine with it as well.--Jersey Devil 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smedley has been a warrior from day one. It would be ideal if he could take a step back and contribute in some less controversial or confrontational areas... that would go a long way toward demonstrating that he's here to improve the encyclopedia rather than fight with specific users over specific topics. Based on what I've seen so far, it would be really hard for me to disagree with a block for disruption at this point. However, if ArbCom will take the issue up that might be ideal, because the best solution may be a form of probation etc. rather than a block or ban. MastCell Talk 16:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with mastcell here. I think if Smedley backed off from the controversial articles, we would see if he's here to improve the encyclopedia and its a "near occasion of wiki-sin" or he's just plain disruptive. David Fuchs (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smedley has been a warrior from day one. It would be ideal if he could take a step back and contribute in some less controversial or confrontational areas... that would go a long way toward demonstrating that he's here to improve the encyclopedia rather than fight with specific users over specific topics. Based on what I've seen so far, it would be really hard for me to disagree with a block for disruption at this point. However, if ArbCom will take the issue up that might be ideal, because the best solution may be a form of probation etc. rather than a block or ban. MastCell Talk 16:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Its not all my fault. How many times has Crockspot and the others been told to quit calling me a sockpuppet? And to take these accusations to an official hearing? And stop throwing wild charges about me? They already filed one RFCU that came back empty. There is a small group of 4-6 editors who fight anyone with a leftist POV. How many false RFCUs did they file on SevenOD? I would suggest a hearing on the actions of this whole group and the leftists they fought against. Go back 2 or 3 years. You will see to find an organized campaign of harrassments, complaints, call for bannings, and then bannings of those who don't share their exact POV. They have run wild over Wikipedia getting their way. And I mean no offense but a few administrators helped them and put politics before enforcing the rules fairly on both sides too. Look at the complaint boards. This groups names are there every day. They were fighting long before I got here. Any calls to action on me is just more of how they got their way for years now. I will avoid any arguing with them and when they attack me Ill just run to a complaint board too. See, one more time they get their way. Seven got run off certain articles and now I am too. Or facing a block. I will choose to avoid any conflict with them on any talk pages where we both edit. But I expect that they should have to follow the rules as much as I do. Thanks for the advice. To show that I have more than any agenda, I will go back to editing mor of the Big Sur articles which I wrorked on a lot before drawing in like a magnet to certain political articles where they are guarded like a grizzly bear mother guarding her young with 'White Wash' agendas. Please notice too, that when I first got here I suspected that CIA and DOD and USGOV were editing many articles. Guess what? Wikipedia should reflect a global POV. Not the POV of only the American right wing! I made these suspicions of the CIA and USGOV editing articles public and I was called crazy and paranoid and ordered by several administrators to stop and not to make any more of these accusations. Months later now the Wikiscanner poofs come out and show that I was right and this same group who called me crazy, and of whom I have so many problems was wrong! Whos laughing now? I will avoid this group where ever possible so that there needs to be no action on me as is their plan. Okay? Okay! •smedleyΔbutler• 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- More distraction. Who is "they"? Go back two or three years? I've been on Wikipedia a year and a half. I am here as an individual editor, filing a complaint against an individual editor, namely you. Your behavior toward me is unacceptable, and my complaint has nothing to do with any "others", nor with Seven, who's arbitration I am neither involved with, nor want to be. BTW, I looked at the wikiscanner output, and I have not seen any articles that I am involved in on the edit lists of the USCHIMPBUSHGOV and CIASPOOK edits. Do you still think I'm a "spook" for the CIA or the secret Rove empire? - Crockspot 16:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC) PS I have also never requested a checkuser on Bmedley. None is required, he has already admitted editing in proxy for FAAFA, and according to the arbitration ruling involving FAAFA, that is enough to assume and treat them as the same user. - Crockspot 16:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Did Crockspot or anyone else call you a sockpuppet before you made edits clearly at the behest of FAAFA? You have to own your responsibility for that. Thatcher131 16:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smedley was accused of being a sockpuppet of Giovanni, then of FAAFA before he made the Big Sur edit to include FAAFA's pictures, which are honestly nice pictures. The sockpuppet check is under Giovanni33's name. It also accuses me of being Smedley. Consider me officially gone, and thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe I had anything to do with that. Because I voted in the past in a few AfDs similarly to some other editors, I am assumed to be the ringleader, or at least tied at the hip with these users. Nothing could be further from the truth. We don't even have the same interests in most articles. I am primarily concerned with BLP articles, those "others" are more concerned with NPOV aspects of topical non-biographies. - Crockspot 17:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think he and they did. I would have to check though. Look at Crockspots 'tone' above. "USCHIMPBUSHGOV" "Rove Empire" Its 'Mocking' and 'Taunting' IMO. I don't find it funny or helpful. And here on an official complaint baord? Of course he wants to not include the others in 'his' group and change the issue. I can go back a month and find a complaint where I ask to have this whole group looked at for harrassing me and others. If its going to be charges and counter charges asking for bannings and blocks and actions, lets address my months old complaint along with Crockspots call for only action of him vs me.To make peace I will be the one to 'walk away' as he advised others to do involved in a conflict, but seems to be his advice for others only. •smedleyΔbutler• 16:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Post some diffs, or stop making the accusations. I have stopped editing nearly ALL articles, because of you. My contributions are now limited to fighting blatant vandalism, and participating in discussion. - Crockspot 17:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Now your problems are all my fault?! Go edit any article you want. I think maybe Beauchamp. I'll give you all the distance you want and avoid conflicting with you to show my 'good faith'. I do not have time for any 'diffs' until tonight, and would rather edit articles than fight on complaint boards anyway. •smedleyΔbutler• 17:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Post some diffs, or stop making the accusations. I have stopped editing nearly ALL articles, because of you. My contributions are now limited to fighting blatant vandalism, and participating in discussion. - Crockspot 17:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smedley was accused of being a sockpuppet of Giovanni, then of FAAFA before he made the Big Sur edit to include FAAFA's pictures, which are honestly nice pictures. The sockpuppet check is under Giovanni33's name. It also accuses me of being Smedley. Consider me officially gone, and thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Did Crockspot or anyone else call you a sockpuppet before you made edits clearly at the behest of FAAFA? You have to own your responsibility for that. Thatcher131 16:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this adds anything, but add me to the list of folks whose assumptions of good faith in Bmedley have been crushed and who now support more decisive action. Most posts I've seen by Bmedley have little to do with the article in question and are either loosely related ideological harangues, far-fetched accusations of being personally attacked, or, most commonly, personal attacks (as delineated by WP:NPA). When his/her behavior is pointed out, he/she either ignores it or has a defense such as misunderstanding the English language ("playing stupid" as Pablo puts it) or saying that being gay means that rules against homophobic personal attacks don't apply to him/her. I do not know about the behavior of anyone else here, but I have seen Bmedley's behavior, and agree with the well-put conclusions of users like RxS and Raymond Arritt. Bmedley clearly has no respect for Wikipedia policies and guidelines, nor for the purpose of the project. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and discussion board for venting against, attacking, or libeling your ideological opponents. Even setting aside attacks and other subjectively judged actions, Bmedley has explicitly stated that he hopes to use Wikipedia to "focus on outing gay conservatives." His/Her admitted motives for being here are just as damning as his/her daily violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Calbaer 17:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not think rolling 'all this' (whatever it is) into SevenOfDiamonds' arbitration would be useful. Thatcher's idea for an RfC is my first choice; very close second is an immediate long block. If no change in behavior shows Bmedley Sutler is here to advance the project, I would support an indefinite block. Tom Harrison Talk 17:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I might as well chime in here. I have sympathy for Bmedley, although I agree that he has made mistakes and we want certain behaviors to change. I disagree with blocking. Also a Rfc will just produce more talking. I think we've had more than enough of that. What Bmedley could use is mentoring. Give him someone dedicated, that he trusts and likes, and let him have a mentor here. The mentor should have credibilty so that when others come around to bait him, the mentor can have such others users sanctioned and stop them in their tracks. We have to remember that when Bmeley a new editor, he started to get attacked by a group of right wing editors who did not always play nice. Bmedley's behavior now is a direct response, a reaction, to these past incidents with the same folks who have harassed SevenOfDiamonds. Not everyone can take that the same way, or knows how to best respond. Some people respond by fighting back, and becoming embattled, etc. So, Smedley is really as much a victim here as is Wikipedia, and no one is free of some degree of fault, either by direct misbehavior, or be lack of taking action. The Arbcom case will hopefully solve some of the problems that lead to these political "battle ground' problems, but until then, perhaps a very old fashioned technique that is used on elementary school playgrounds will work, in conjunction with a mentor being asigned, along the lines of avoidance: you to to this side of the playground, and you go to the other side. Both sides avoid each other. Each side do not report anyone from the other side. Don't talk to each other. If you are both editing on the same article, one of you has to move on to another article. No wikistalking, no interaction, disengage, de-esclate, forget and forgive. If the other side continues as well (my main problem here is that this is all one-sided---its not just Bmeldely, there are two sides here)--then the mentor can report this with sanctions going against the other party for not disengaging.Giovanni33 20:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, Smedley's first edit outside of his user space was to make a beeline for one of the most contentious fights going on at Wikipedia at the time. I also notice that he does not seem to have any trouble with the English language in that comment. - Crockspot 21:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that you follow the advice from several administrators that you stop the un-related accusations and charges that have nothing to do with your primary charge that I am 'attacking' you. Please make a formal complaint about these accustations if you think you 'have' something. Another empty RFCU could be good. I agreed to give you distance. Im sorry if your feelings were hurt. Its time to move on. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest you stop making comments like "another failed RFCU", when I have never filed an RFCU on you. Again, you are blaming me for the actions of others. - Crockspot 22:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that you follow the advice from several administrators that you stop the un-related accusations and charges that have nothing to do with your primary charge that I am 'attacking' you. Please make a formal complaint about these accustations if you think you 'have' something. Another empty RFCU could be good. I agreed to give you distance. Im sorry if your feelings were hurt. Its time to move on. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Blocks are prentitive not punative. I 100% agree to leave Crockspot alone, so there is no need for any block. Not 5 minutes. You can set an action that the next time I 'attack' him I could receive a block. I actually have very few warnings. Look at my page. I bring up the differnce in treatment of a well-known RW editor Bellowed, and me. Take a look at his NPAs and mine. No offense but the cards are stacked around here. If you're a RW editor who thinks the USA and Bush does no wrong, you do have a much easier time here. This is fact. This should end. Back to the subject. I 100% agree to avoid 'attacking' Crockspot. I will edit different articles than him. There is no need for any block at all. I'll go back to my Big Sur articles too, where I made a lot of contributions that show that I have the good of the project in my heart, not some agenda. And for Calbear I explain that I have many 'agendas' not one. Making the Big Sur articles better is my most important agenda. Making sure that other articles are not "White Washed" is another. Thank you for your time. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think this speaks for itself, but I will say that throwing around terms like "RW", "squashed" "White Washed" underscores my feeling that his behavioral issues will continue. He has promised to cool the rhetoric before but it continues even while a block is discussed. In my opinion an RFC would not be effective (most are not, this case isn't an exception) and would make this burn hotter. I still would suggest a longer block at this point in time. RxS 21:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out to those who charge that I never assumed good faith on Bmedley's part that I worked with him on his first article creation, Deetjen's Big Sur Inn. We even chatted a bit about Big Sur outside of the article and talk page. Some of the best sources in that article are one's that I found and included. This was just weeks before my RfA, and I don't remember having any conflicts with him between that time and the moment he torpedoed my RfA. I have no more good faith left for him. He used it all up. - Crockspot 22:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I never claimed Bmedley Sutler had a single agenda, just that he/she hoped to, using his/her words, "focus on [using Wikipedia to the ends of] outing gay conservatives." This agenda is further evidenced by the user's glee in reporting any homosexual activity regarding conservatives, no matter how irrelevant it is to the dialogue at question. (What does Larry Craig, whom I'd never heard of before today, have to do with whether this user should be banned or mentored? Nothing.) Likewise, RxS didn't say that Bmedley Sutler's language in the paragraph above denoted an "attack," but rather heated rhetoric. The fact that Bmedley Sutler is continually reminded, through words and actions, of the proper purposes, guidelines, and policies of Wikipedia, yet chooses to ignore them, makes me think that mentoring would be useless in and of itself. It might, however, be useful in having someone who is allied with his ideological positions being forced to choose between defending violations of policies or, more likely, confirm that Bmedley Sutler's actions are both incorrigible and unacceptable to users of any ideological stripe. Calbaer 23:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Crockspot, now you are bringing up the issue you don't want discussed again! You made those comments on that other site. Someone pointed them to me. I felt that for the good of The Project (Wiki) that they should be discussed here in the election. I now know that that person maybe did not have the good of the project (Wiki) in his heart when he told me of them. That doesnt change the comments. I didnt have anything personal against you. Thank you for helping on the Deetjen's article. Guess what? If my mother had made those same comments it would still be my duty to report them. (Unrelated) Like the soldier who reported Abu Gharib. He did the right thing, and now has to hide and change his name and is under protection from all the death threats.•smedleyΔbutler• 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Crockspot, what articles are you 'not editing' because of my actions? Just name them and I will leave to let you edit and only add my posts if theres a request for votes on something. This is how far I am willing to go to make accomadations for you. What articles? Beauchamp Im sure. Matt Drudge? Matt Sanchez? Pick 5. •smedleyΔbutler• 23:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't even know who Matt Sanchez is. - Crockspot 23:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Really? You commented (I think) about his claims on the Beauchamp article. He is well discussed there and posts there. Which articles have my actions prevented you from editing? Just name them and I will give you them. This is a solution, unless (no attack meant) what you want isnt really a solution but a banning or long block of another leftist editor for your group that you deny your part of. (no offense) •smedleyΔbutler• 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't even know who Matt Sanchez is. - Crockspot 23:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Crockspot, what articles are you 'not editing' because of my actions? Just name them and I will leave to let you edit and only add my posts if theres a request for votes on something. This is how far I am willing to go to make accomadations for you. What articles? Beauchamp Im sure. Matt Drudge? Matt Sanchez? Pick 5. •smedleyΔbutler• 23:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Calbear: You know Im a male. An out Gay male. A Gay activist Gay male. You know that 100% certainly. We discussed it at long. Calling me 'he/she' (transgender or transvestite) is a 100% unnacceptable insult on my sexuality and you know it, especially after you accusing me of calling you Gay when I never did such a thing! •smedleyΔbutler• 23:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- You told me you were gay. I do not recall your telling me your gender. I have had female friends refer to themselves as "gay" (which is much easier to say than "LGBT"), so I did not want to presume that you were necessarily male. "He/she" is not a knock on your gender, but rather a reflection of my ignorance of it (and a reflection of my getting tired of writing "he or she" and/or "this user" over and over again). Now I know and will, if necessary, refer to you as "he" or "him." Calbaer 23:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Bmedley, your sexual preferences are irrelevant. Please don't try to change the subject. No one has taken any pot shots at your sexual orientation. Pablo Talk | Contributions 00:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Support for that. In light of BMedley's rules-lawyering 'blocks are preventative not punative and I won't do it again', and other such things, and a few strawmen/red herrings, instead of just getting down to brass tacks, I can't see anything but to do this. ThuranX 03:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also support. The foregoing discussion is a microcosm of the "Bmedley issue": he shifted the topic away from his actions and toward the Great Struggle between left and right wing politics. And as usual other editors fell for it like a ton of bricks. I thank User:Jaranda for cutting through the fog and getting back to the issue at hand. Raymond Arritt 06:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I support the block because of the following quote: "It guess hiding well known conservatives homosexuality is more your liking. I read that vandal patrol is the best way to worm into administratorship." This does not indicate acceptance of the consensus approach. Eiler7 13:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know about Bmedley's other activities, since I'd never taken much note of him until a few days ago, but he did have one of the better responses to the whole Michael Moore kerfluffle: He emailed Moore and asked him to take the links down, which was ultimately more helpful and constructive than a lot of people's actions (my own included). -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 13:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think this user will ever learn that Wikipedia is not a battleground for agendas. See this edit made during his block.--Jersey Devil 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Technically, should that be oversighted, since the lyrics are a copyvio? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This guy looks more like FAAFA with every edit. FAAFA was prone to the same kind of amusing tirades against whatever his political target of the week was... - Merzbow 16:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think this user will ever learn that Wikipedia is not a battleground for agendas. See this edit made during his block.--Jersey Devil 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Hakozen (2nd)
The user just came back from his second block and made a request to 50+ users something in Turkish [6]. One of them SONSAVASCI has responded and is reverting articles in favor or Hakozen[7]. I warned him to stop it, I got this uncivil comment back [8] --VartanM 03:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think I figured it out...might have something to do with those versions mentioning the "Armenian Genocide." I will revert and leave a note. Edit: I left a note on both SONVASASCI's and Hakozen's talk page because Hakozen immediately made this edit after the talk page requests (it once more is a removal about the Armenian Genocide).¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 03:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it definitely does. Since he decided to write in Turkish, I can't read it -- but it definitely mentions "Armenian" and in a non-supportive manner, from my machine translation. This user is getting out of control; at this point, I'm supportive of a long block until he realizes his conduct is unacceptable. --Haemo 03:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can someone who speaks Turkish provide a translation? If the message is to the effect of "go forth and push POV", I also support a lengthy block of Hakozen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Sandstein 05:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- It certaintly looks to be [9]. Not quite an accurate translation, but it's quite blatantly obvious he's asking people to unite together to do something, as the translation says something along the lines that the more people involved and the more organized they are, the more powerful they are. I would support an indefinite block for Hakozen just for being so blatantly disruptive, and reverting all of the user's edits. We really shouldn't deal with this sort of POV pushing crap and should nip it in the bud. The same for Sonsavasci as this looks to be a simple case of meatpuppetry. Cowman109Talk 05:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks like Agenda warring. I see violations of CANVAS, NPOV, CIVIL, and NPA, just in the above set of links. That's enough for a VERY long block for Hakozen. Choosing to be a meatpuppet means a good long block for SONSAVASCI as well. Any OTHER editors who 'pick up the torch' should also suffer equal blocks, if not harsher in light of the response to the first one. ThuranX 06:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- It certaintly looks to be [9]. Not quite an accurate translation, but it's quite blatantly obvious he's asking people to unite together to do something, as the translation says something along the lines that the more people involved and the more organized they are, the more powerful they are. I would support an indefinite block for Hakozen just for being so blatantly disruptive, and reverting all of the user's edits. We really shouldn't deal with this sort of POV pushing crap and should nip it in the bud. The same for Sonsavasci as this looks to be a simple case of meatpuppetry. Cowman109Talk 05:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can someone who speaks Turkish provide a translation? If the message is to the effect of "go forth and push POV", I also support a lengthy block of Hakozen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Sandstein 05:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Bluntly, what about it? 'Just followin orders' isn't really ever a great excuse for doing what you know is wrong. I'd say a week to prevent him from' caryying on in the face of anti-turkish sentiment' or some other rationalization he might concoct to validate his actions. ThuranX 06:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Has SONSAVASCI been editing in response to the message, or not? If they are continuing to edit as previously - which may or may not appear sympathetic to the content of the message - then they should not be blocked. While "following orders" is no reason to avoid a block, "receiving orders" is no reason to apply one. LessHeard vanU 13:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Lol, I'm not Hakozen (2nd). Wikipedia is a "free encylopedia" and I am free to make changes on it. If you want your pages to be not editable, then use a free BLOG. I didn't violate 3RR or any other rules, not yet.... Requesting for 1 week block? LOL... There are things you really need to learn about wikipedia... I am working on a subpage about my recent reverts, which I prefer to call, reverting the sneaky vandalism. --SONSAVASCI 11:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is this where I can say "I told you so"? Corvus cornix 15:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Only if you're willing to make it a duet. Block SONSAVASCI for his lousy anti-consensus attitude and hostile essay which attempts to incriminate ALL editors as vandals for maintaining watchlists and keeping an eye on 'our ' (no WP:OWN implied) articles. ThuranX 19:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I consider this subpage created by SONSAVASCI a personal attack against me, since I was the one who reported his behavior. Here is a quote from the essay "they are so sneaky that, after you reverted the sneaky vandalism they call you Vandal and ask Admins to punish you." I never called him vandal, was I wrong to report him? VartanM 23:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Only if you're willing to make it a duet. Block SONSAVASCI for his lousy anti-consensus attitude and hostile essay which attempts to incriminate ALL editors as vandals for maintaining watchlists and keeping an eye on 'our ' (no WP:OWN implied) articles. ThuranX 19:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's not an attack, per se, but it's definitely hostile to editors throughout the project. I'd appreciate an Admin reviewing said page, and the above material, for examination of whether a block is appropriate. Unfortunately, this thread went stale for a bit, so the delay may apply as well. ThuranX 17:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think blocking the user right now would be unnecessary. Keeping an eye on these activities of course is warranted, but as I posted on Ryulong's talk page in response to a user questioning Hazoken's block, that's not really the issue. The issue is that Wikipedia is not a battleground, and allowing users to foster this idiotic neverending Turkish vs Armenian dispute will bring needless disruption, and making it clear that users who wish to foster such an environment are unwelcome is a necessity, at least. But talking of course comes before blocking unless it's an extreme case. Cowman109Talk 18:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Block of Bouncehoper by Violetriga
Violetriga (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) just blocked Bouncehoper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for three minutes because of "edit warring". These two are engaged in a long-standing dispute over the usage of "sophomore" in various articles, and as evident from their contributions, they have both engaged in mass revert warring over this issue (and Violetriga abused her admin rollback tool). Administrators shouldn't block editors with whom they are in dispute. And this block was for three minutes, which makes it look punitive, rather than preventative. Melsaran (talk) 20:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- We discussed and agreed a WikiProject guideline at WP:MUSTARD. Bouncehoper systematically went through my contributions and undid all my edits despite that agreement. The block was a very short one to finally get him to discuss it rather than continuing the edit war and came after numerous messages asking him to stop on his talk page. It worked and we are now trying to discuss it. violet/riga (t) 20:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, it only worked to scare the crap outta me. Was that the idea?
- And as Violetriga has glossed over, I was making an effort to discuss, when she/he came onto my talk page and started getting crazy. I was only reverting their stuff because they were deeming it an "Americanism" and not bothering to link it, which would have been more beneficial than just deleting it and calling it something it's not.
- Bouncehoper 20:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- If he was blindly reverting he should certainly have been blocked briefly if that was the only way to get him to engage in discussion. It might have been a good idea to avoid even the appearance of personal involvement, by bringing the systematic reverts to the attention of other administrators who could discuss and take whatever action was considered necessary in the circumstances. --Tony Sidaway 20:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed that
it would probably have been better to have an uninvolved admin to step in, but as it was happening at a fast pace I thought it appropriate to do it myself. violet/riga (t) 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- They were both blindly reverting across something like 30 articles today, and the same yesterday and last week. (90 or more reverts, but never 4 in one day, of course.) Blocking someone you are edit warring with is forbidden, even just to get their attention. Use of rollback in an edit war over content is forbidden. Edit warring over something as petty as the use of the word "sophomore" to indicate someone's second album shows poor judgement for an administrator. This is really inappropriate behavior for an admin. Thatcher131 20:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you'll find that it hasn't gotten anywhere near 3RR by either party. A block would be inappropriate if it were lengthy - this wasn't. Using rollback was acceptable, I feel, because my edit would only have served the same function and what he was doing was against our behaviour guideline (wikistalking). violet/riga (t) 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- If as Thatcher131 says you were both reverting one another across multiple articles, well it's probably just a stroke of luck for you that nobody stepped in and blocked you both. That's very disruptive behavior, if Thatcher131 has it right, and saying "it hasn't gotten anywhere near 3RR by either party" is missing the point. If the reverts happened often enough for someone to say "yesterday and last week" then that's too much warring. --Tony Sidaway 03:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would avoid making generalizations here. 4 reverts in 24 hours is still a razor wire. Additionally, revert warring is also not allowed, true enough. But defining revert warring can only be done case by case. There are plenty of scenarios when Tony's example above ("yesterday and last week") does not constitute revert warring at all. It takes article-writing to be able to judge this reasonably (perhaps a suggestion?). --Irpen 03:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- If as Thatcher131 says you were both reverting one another across multiple articles, well it's probably just a stroke of luck for you that nobody stepped in and blocked you both. That's very disruptive behavior, if Thatcher131 has it right, and saying "it hasn't gotten anywhere near 3RR by either party" is missing the point. If the reverts happened often enough for someone to say "yesterday and last week" then that's too much warring. --Tony Sidaway 03:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wikistalking means "following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor". Checking someone's contribs for the purpose of mass revert warring because you know that they do edits you disagree with is inappropriate behaviour, but not Wikistalking. As you both were engaged in that same dispute, you shouldn't have blocked him. You should have left the decision to another administrator (and I doubt that a block was justified, by the way). And yes, you didn't go anywhere near 3RR, but mass-reverting each other over tons of articles is disruptive as well. 3RR is not an entitlement, edit warring can still be disruptive when you don't violate it. Melsaran (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- What Bouncehoper did was to follow me around the wiki, edit the same articles as me, with the intent of causing annoyance. He wikistalked. The block was not a punishment but an attempt to stop the edit war that he was creating - if I had blocked for longer then it would be a very different story. violet/riga (t) 21:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I can live with the rollback (I freely confess I've used rollback in "content disputes" when others have reverted already and the user's points have been debunked on the talk page: that is, when it's trolling): I can live with the block, too - but edit warring over something so petty? I mean, for that, both users probably should be blocked for 24 hours or so, if only for outstanding silliness - am I serious? Maybe :) Come on, people, this is not save-the-wiki stuff - no one needs to edit war, it can wait a day or so. Moreschi Talk 21:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I hadn't been on for a few days, and decided to check my watchlist today. Suddenly, I get all this stuff from Violetriga. What the crap?
I'm sorry about the reverting action; if it's going to cause such a headache, I just won't bother. But I originally reverted a few days ago, because Violet had not bothered to link anything as discussed.
I think we've finally come to the point that Violet's been hoping for, in that, I honestly don't give a sh*t anymore about the stupid word. This all started with trying to prove a point about the use of it, and Violet's taken much further than I had ever imagined. Screw the word; I've got more important things in my life to worry about than what someone is doing to things I've edited on Wiki.
If you feel the need to block us, whatever. I'll pop off for a day, come back, and probably have forgotten. Just as long as Violet doesn't harass me anymore, I'm fine. I'm sick of this crap, and I want. it. done.
(and lol, y'all, I'm a chick.)
Bouncehoper 21:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Rare, noble woman! Thou hast gained a sense of proportion, and art all the better for it. Perhaps we can all disengage - forgive and forget? Moreschi Talk 21:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you feel bad about all of this, though I can't understand the claims of harrassment. I believe it all stems from a misunderstanding of what we agreed as, to me, it clearly states that we should avoid the word where possible. As explained my edits were going along with that and I haven't touched the ones that are already linked. If you think we need a better wording then we should discuss it at WP:MUSTARD. violet/riga (t) 22:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see in the current MOS(?) it says "...should be avoided where possible and linked to its definition at wiktionary:sophomore when used." I see that compromise as kind of "leave it where it is, and avoid using it further." At least, so far as editors are aware of this guideline. It seems to me the least change necessary would be to link instances where's it's currently in use (and unlinked), not remove them. In fact, I'm honestly not sure why it would go the other way. I'm quite confused here. --InkSplotch 22:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
MOS says a lot of silly things; this is one of them. Where? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)It's from WP:MUSTARD. For other hasty readers, this is strictly the use for albums. It's jargon, and it may be worth removing it as jargon, but revert-warring in a class of articles where many readers will understand it? Why? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see in the current MOS(?) it says "...should be avoided where possible and linked to its definition at wiktionary:sophomore when used." I see that compromise as kind of "leave it where it is, and avoid using it further." At least, so far as editors are aware of this guideline. It seems to me the least change necessary would be to link instances where's it's currently in use (and unlinked), not remove them. In fact, I'm honestly not sure why it would go the other way. I'm quite confused here. --InkSplotch 22:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- The use of the word has been much discussed with many people saying that we shouldn't use it. The current wording is a compromise and says that we should avoid it where possible. The articles I edited benefited from the change and, since "sophomore" wasn't linked in any of them it was appropriate to change it per this compromise. violet/riga (t) 22:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC
- But it wasn't many people. It was just a few, and mostly everyone saw we were going at it, and just wanted it done. 'Sophomore' wouldn't have been linked in any of them because none of the original uses of the word were linked. Of course there would be no link if that decision had just been made. It was going to take awhile to link them anyways. You can't just say that there's no link, when beforehand there was no need of it.
- Bouncehoper 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Violetriga was correct to remove these instances of the word "sophomore." In fact, I believe that it's illogical to grandfather the linked instances, and that they (excepting any direct quotes) should be removed too. It makes far more sense to simply use the word "second" than to use a word requiring a dictionary link for many readers to understand.
I also believe, however, that Violetriga's use of the administrative rollback function and three-minute block of Bouncehoper were extremely inappropriate. —David Levy 23:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I've no opinion on the content dispute itself (and plan to militantly remain that way). My confusion just stemmed from previous experience seeing style conflicts float over to AN/I. Compromise can be hard to come by, and when some elements are left "in-between" like that it's usually seemed to me to be less contentious to grandfather them in versus deleting things. Just an impression, for which I have no real facts. I'll just say it's obvious both sides are passionate about the project, which is great, but nothing is so urgent about this dispute that everyone can't step back and flesh out the compromise y'all worked so hard for in the first place. --InkSplotch 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Violetriga's block (de minimis or otherwise) while engaged in a dispute with the blocked user was not appropriate. Please don't do anything like this again. Newyorkbrad 03:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I find myself in my typical position of agreeing with Newyorkbrad. I don't care what the justification, blocking a user with whom you are engaged in a content dispute is inappropriate. - Philippe | Talk 03:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you can even call it a content dispute. It would be natural for anyone to have the some position on the matter as Violetriga, and still come to the conclusion of blocking the user. How many times has a blocking admin agreed with "the other side" when they blocked someone, but just didn't say anything about it? Does it make it any better then?
- Lets say this, a user thinks that all articles should have the first word in the article in red print, and starts to do this to tons of articles, and doesn't stop when asked to. Could you not say that it is a content dispute with those that don't think the first word should be in red print? The nature of this dispute is being ignored in this thread. -- Ned Scott 03:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I see a user being disruptive and being blocked for three minutes. Maybe if the situation wasn't obvious, I could understand Violetriga stepping back and letting someone else handle it, but this is painfully straight forward, dispute or no dispute. -- Ned Scott 03:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- A narrow comment: 3 minute blocks are never unacceptable and contradict WP:BLOCK blatantly, WP:BLOCK#Recording in the block log. If a user is a habitual stalker and an edit-warrior he may have to be blocked all right but what happened serves exactly no purpose and causes aggravation. --Irpen 03:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, point taken, but for the sake of good faith, I'll assume it's more of a cool-down block than one just to write in the block log. I still stand by my other point (above), but ignoring all that, yeah, the block on its own wasn't the best idea to deescalate the situation. -- Ned Scott 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- And for what it's worth, I agree with Ned Scott that the nature of the dispute is relevant, but I'd still classify this one as an editing dispute in which the block should have been done by another admin or not at all. Still, probably enough said here, with the hope this won't recur. Newyorkbrad 04:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, point taken, but for the sake of good faith, I'll assume it's more of a cool-down block than one just to write in the block log. I still stand by my other point (above), but ignoring all that, yeah, the block on its own wasn't the best idea to deescalate the situation. -- Ned Scott 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Nobody else mentioned it, but X marks the spot in policy: Wikipedia:Blocking policy#When blocking may not be used. Reverts, blocking for minutes, all that's not to the point, because you just don't do it as its against the rules. Easy to understand, hard to do. No excuses. Kind of hard to be fair if you're judge, jury, executioner and prosecuter all in one. You're all very civil, by the way, for not using the word s********c once, against anybody. Shows lots of restraint. TryCoolCareful 04:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
...what word?????? Bouncehoper 21:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Disruptive user
User:M.V.E.i., who has a history of edit warring[10], POV pushing and incivility [11], blocks[12], and sockpuppetry to avoid said block [13], has been leaving a series of unhelpful, potentially attacking comments at AfD[14][15][16][17][18][19] to make a WP:POINT. Normally I wouldn't bring it here, but the user's history gave me pause. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 07:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Having blocked M.V.E.i. before, a quick look over those diffs doesn't suggest any action needs to be taken at this time. The AFD comments are indeed useless, but the closing admin for each discussion will judge them on their value. Neil ム 09:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Myself and several others have offered some AfDs tips to the user in question and he seems to be making some effort to expand on his reasoning: [20]. Maybe suggesting adopt-a-user would be helpful here? That program has been great for me so far! :) Best and I hope that helps! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 15:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Neil's assessment. Useless may these comments be, but certainly not attacking.
- Furthermore, while it's true that M.V.E.i. has a checkered past, he has also shown considerable improvement -- which is more than can be said about some other trolls.
- Eliz81: my understanding is that M.V.E.i. has trouble understanding the concept of notability, and, having suffered from a significant number of his articles getting deleted on notability grounds, does not really know what to do about it. The obvious solution would be carefully explaining the significance *and meaning* of notability to him, so more of his future contributions could stand. Digwuren 15:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all, for what i've done i already was blocked (I dont agree with those blocks, but nevertheless if you would check my history i became more "polite"). Second, i dont see anything wrong in what i've said. "Keep. Thats it", it means i have nothing special to say, it means "no comment" but i'm not shure my speling in this word is correct so i write "thats it". I like the article, or i see potential of it becoming bigger, so i vote to keep it. And i really belive that if a user has a problem with an article lacking references, instead of blindely nominating it for deletion he should not be lazy (because it's the easiest thing, nominate for deletion) but search for the references himself, and only then if he finds there are no references and it all might be a "hoax" or something like that, nominating for deletion. When i get to an article which lacks references but i really like, i go and find them myself (Google helps alot here). If the article is not something that i care about and lacks references and i dont feel like searching for some, i just keep my mouth shut and move on. I just know how hard it might be to write an article, and when i see a good article that someone worked hard on but didn't know how to insert references nominated for deletion, that makes me sad and i'm like, help him, explain him, nominating for deletion it's the easiest thing to do. Third, I think the same thing about nominating someone for blocking, i mean, talk to him ask him and only then decide. You say i'm "disturbful" or something like that, did you see my contribution page before you said that? Did you read the articles i've created? Theres a person behind the user-name it's not just a game to nominate for blocking. I didn't use dirty language i dont see where i said something that i should be blocked for. And you didn't even told me you nominated me for blocking, and that's definitely not responsible, i was told by another user. M.V.E.i. 15:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I never said you should be blocked, nor did I say you used dirty language. I was merely reporting here that I believed you were disrupting AfD. I do apologize for not informing you of this thread. I appreciate your efforts finding references to save articles, but your keep votes telling other people to find references are a little patronizing, as it assumes that no one else has made the effort. When I say 'unreferenced' or 'no references', I personally mean that I've already scoured Google for them. Why are you assuming that other people haven't done their homework and their delete votes or AfD nominations are lazy? But, I'm glad other editors are working with you on this. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 16:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Most dont do this, belive me. There was a case 3 of my articles were deleted at once as "not notable". Those were articles of 3 bands that every Russian knows, 3 of the most importent in Russian rock. Eventually a Russian honest administrator restored the 3 of them explaining they were notable, and made the Google check to prove that. The thing is i didn't know the importence of references and thats why i didnt give them at the time, after i learned these i added the references. I dont vote on every article, but when i see someone puted his soul into it, made something he could be proud of, and it's nominated, it's kind-off a gentle spot. M.V.E.i. 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just because you had one experience where somebody doesn't look for sources before proposing a deletion doesn't mean everybody who nominates an article for deletion does this. Whenever I am thinking of putting an article up for deletion, my first instinct to do a Google search to see if there are any reliable sources that have covered the subject. Most people who are experienced enough to go through the AfD process know to search for reliable sources before stating that as a reason to delete. Your attitude that anybody who says there isn't any sources for an AfD'd subject didn't look for them borders on assuming bad faith and isn't good wikiquette. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 19:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not that this will help MVEi, but I have often found that when people at AfDs on Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Bulgarian ... subjects say "delete, not notable: only 33 googles" the problem is that they haven't googled for alternative Romanized versionsd of the name. It is always a good idea to copy paste the Cyrillic version in the Google window. Someone like Makpal Isabekova should never have been the object of an Afd, and it ended in no consensus, as I was unable to persuade some diehards that they were using an argumentum ad googlum. On the other hand, some Russian names may be so widespread that you need to add the patronymic to make sure you do not OVERestimate the google result for an individual, and most Westerners do not know that either. (So, cultural bias may work both ways here.) Now if that is contrary to WP:AGF, sorry, but in many instances my attitude has been proven to be correct.--Pan Gerwazy 11:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just because you had one experience where somebody doesn't look for sources before proposing a deletion doesn't mean everybody who nominates an article for deletion does this. Whenever I am thinking of putting an article up for deletion, my first instinct to do a Google search to see if there are any reliable sources that have covered the subject. Most people who are experienced enough to go through the AfD process know to search for reliable sources before stating that as a reason to delete. Your attitude that anybody who says there isn't any sources for an AfD'd subject didn't look for them borders on assuming bad faith and isn't good wikiquette. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 19:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Most dont do this, belive me. There was a case 3 of my articles were deleted at once as "not notable". Those were articles of 3 bands that every Russian knows, 3 of the most importent in Russian rock. Eventually a Russian honest administrator restored the 3 of them explaining they were notable, and made the Google check to prove that. The thing is i didn't know the importence of references and thats why i didnt give them at the time, after i learned these i added the references. I dont vote on every article, but when i see someone puted his soul into it, made something he could be proud of, and it's nominated, it's kind-off a gentle spot. M.V.E.i. 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Improper use of this board
Comment: as we speak I am in the content conflict with MVEi and I am not thrilled, I must say, by his stubborness. But, somehow, it does not cross my mind to drag him here, start a bashing thread titled "Disruptive user", like this one, or ask others to intervene. He is an opinionated but well-intentioned and committed editor. His demeanor improved a great deal, his English even is getting better (not that mine is very good.) His explanations about his AfD votes seem sensible even if he is wrong. The deletion of his articles he talks about was an outright example of what went wrong with Wikipedia.
If Eliz is unhappy about something and there seems to be no emergency here whatsoever, Eliz should have taken it directly to MVEi first. Instead, Eliz pulls it all here, makes others waste time while there are some serious and unresolved issues that demand admin attention, like appalling backlog on several tasks. Especially, titling this thread as it was done goes beyond pale.
In short, this board is too often abused in attempts to short-circuit different disagreement and "win" them by an easy workaround. This board's regulars should discourage such forum shopping by showing such threads a door instead of developing them. --Irpen 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good idea. Let's start from you trying to "win" an argument with Eliz81 by an easy workaround! Digwuren 22:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have no argument with Eliz. I never met this user. Please stop harassing me. --Irpen 22:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Irpen is completely right in what he said actually. I also said that Eliz didn't notify me that he opened the issue here. The lable disruptive user is very dengerous. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Irpen, I assure you my starting this thread was not with the intent of bashing anyone or forum shopping, but with a concern about a rash of 20-30 posts made within a short period of time. I came here in good faith after seeing the issue had already been broached on MVEi's talk page, and spoke with an admin before posting, to make sure I was in fact in the correct forum for raising the issue. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 23:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- But it was my first 20-30 posts here, and that might explain my mistake. My problem wad not with you opening the issue, but with you not notifying me and labeling me a "disruptive user" by that mistake of mine. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good idea. Let's start from you trying to "win" an argument with Eliz81 by an easy workaround! Digwuren 22:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, dragging someone to this board and titling the thread "disruptive user" implies that some big misconduct is being involved. Not that such threads should never be started. Some users' activities deserve being dragged here. The point is to be reasonable in deciding whether the user's activity is so problematic as to warrant giving him certain notoriety by dragging the user to this board. Not a single observer who commented above saw a need of sanctioning MVEi for the purported "disruption". So, at very least you misjudged the issue here. --Irpen 00:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, she didn't. She operated within the bounds of limited knowledge, and found it appropriate to bring the issue to wider discussion. The wider discussion, considering finer points of data, found that no administrative intervention is appropriate at this time. Your campaign to selectively harass people over disagreements with your protégés (as you also did in User talk:ProhibitOnions#Accusations of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR over RJ CG) is reprehensible. Digwuren 11:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not see comments on AfDs, like Keep, that is as helpful. In fact such comments have little weight or no weight at all on the result of closing of the AfDs. Our admins are usually not stupid. On the other hand, I do not see here disruptions worth administrative actions. Such a discussion on the user's talk page or even on the AfD itself would be of more help , IMHO. Alex Bakharev 02:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually we have a discussion there and i was explained alot on the issue. The thing is, i thought it's a vote and i didn't see why arguments are needed. Later i was explained more about it. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread. I want to (re?)make my position clear.
1. I saw a user make 20-30 AfD edits in a short period of time, and appeared to be disrupting the process to make a WP:POINT about delete !voters and AfD nominators being lazy and incompetent. I considered this a personal attack on the nominators and fellow AfD participants. 2. I looked through the user's talk pages and saw a long history of admin issues. 3. I consulted with an administrator and given the user's history, decided to bring the issue to ANI. 4. The people who have stayed on topic seem to think no intervention is needed at this time. This is FINE. Not every issue brought here will result in an admin action. My main concern is that Wikipedia function well. It looks like MVEi is getting help, and that's great. 5. I understand that some people think this was an issue best left to talk pages. I didn't. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 15:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Purple Hearts
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
This might not be an incident, but I definetly think this is something worth thinking about. From the article Purple Heart:
- Any false verbal, written or physical claim to the Purple Heart Medal, by an individual to whom it has not been awarded, is a federal felony offence punishable by up to a year in jail and up to a $10,000 fine.
There would seem to be a few cases of this according to where the popular image is located: File links. I would dread to think... — Moe ε 09:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't get it... Why? The only person who might have made such a claim is the uploader of the image, and they could just say it was someone else's. Grandmasterka 09:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Example: "In gratitude for all the thankless work you do around here - especially for dealing with users who would have others tearing their hair out - I hereby award you this purple heart." from Theresa Knotts userpage (emphasis mine). The user then plasters the image of the purple heart that they "earned", thus reading the entry at the Purple Heart article, any "false verbal, written or physical claim" is punishable by law. — Moe ε 09:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, now I get it. Yeah, that's an interesting thought. I can't imagine someone getting prosecuted over a picture of it on their Wikipedia userpage, but it might be seen as sacriligious by some people nonetheless. Grandmasterka 10:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- My thoughts would be to remove any possiblity of that happening, or am I just being over zealous here? :/ — Moe ε 10:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Could an image of a cartoon heart that is purple (like this one, but purple) be substituted into the template / all the user pages the Purple Heart medal is being used where it ought not to be? This way the award stays, but no issue with the above law stuff. Neil ム 11:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- It should be noted that the quoted passage has the words
in all lower case; which would then simply be a description of a coloured shape. Also, as far as I am aware the awarding of a Purple Heart medal is the result of injury/wounds sustained in combat, and the reason cited for awarding the coloured shape is unrelated to either injury or combat. The image is the only concern. If that is replaced per Neil, then everything is tickerty-boo. (edit conflict) This seems to have been resolved by Moe, below. LessHeard vanU 12:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)"...purple heart..."
- Just created this one on Commons, I'll start replacing them. — Moe ε 11:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- It should be noted that the quoted passage has the words
- Could an image of a cartoon heart that is purple (like this one, but purple) be substituted into the template / all the user pages the Purple Heart medal is being used where it ought not to be? This way the award stays, but no issue with the above law stuff. Neil ム 11:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- My thoughts would be to remove any possiblity of that happening, or am I just being over zealous here? :/ — Moe ε 10:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, now I get it. Yeah, that's an interesting thought. I can't imagine someone getting prosecuted over a picture of it on their Wikipedia userpage, but it might be seen as sacriligious by some people nonetheless. Grandmasterka 10:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Example: "In gratitude for all the thankless work you do around here - especially for dealing with users who would have others tearing their hair out - I hereby award you this purple heart." from Theresa Knotts userpage (emphasis mine). The user then plasters the image of the purple heart that they "earned", thus reading the entry at the Purple Heart article, any "false verbal, written or physical claim" is punishable by law. — Moe ε 09:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
If Wikipedia's servers weren't in Florida, I'd be inclined to say this is a non-issue for those of us outside the US. Since they are, however, does anyone see a problem with altering the text to say "award you this [picture of a]' purple heart"? Jakew 12:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it's an issue, notwithstanding , even if the servers were in Texas, I think we'd be fine. El_C 12:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I mean, playfulness is probably allowed somewhere in that, as of late, ever-changing constitution of theirs (i.e. you will not be arrested for police impersonation due to a Cops and robbers game, for at least a few more years, that is!). El_C 12:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your inclined to add it your userpage however you like since the media is in the Commons, but I would suspect users be leary of these kinds of things. Jail time and $10,000 fines are no slaps on the wrist. — Moe ε 13:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think there has been enough "presentations" of "Purple Hearts" in the movie and television mediums to set a precedent that as long as it is reasonably clear it isn't the actual decoration, or being so portrayed, then nobody is going to slap a writ on anyone here anytime soon. LessHeard vanU 14:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree and think Moe Epsilon was probably being overly cautious. However 'tis better to be overly than under cautious and chasnging the picture has no effect on the "award" so I'm fine with it and I don't see anyone else being bothered iether. OTOH changing the wording as per Jakew's suggestion is OTT. No one in thier right mind would think that anyone is actually claiming a military medal is being awarded here. Can we mark this matter as resolved? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 15:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep. Neil ム 17:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, it patently clear that it's not referring to the purple heart medal, anymore than those women with the "purple heart" band-aids during the 2004 election were wearing "purple hearts". I mean, why are we relying on a random Wikipedia page here — here's the actual law:
- Yep. Neil ム 17:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree and think Moe Epsilon was probably being overly cautious. However 'tis better to be overly than under cautious and chasnging the picture has no effect on the "award" so I'm fine with it and I don't see anyone else being bothered iether. OTOH changing the wording as per Jakew's suggestion is OTT. No one in thier right mind would think that anyone is actually claiming a military medal is being awarded here. Can we mark this matter as resolved? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 15:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (b) False Claims About Receipt of Military Decorations or Medals- Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the Armed Forces of the United States, any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration, or medal, or any colorable imitation of such item shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than six months, or both.';
- (3) in paragraph (1) of subsection (c), as redesignated by paragraph (1) of this subsection, by inserting `or (b)' after `subsection (a)'.
- (d) Enhanced Penalty for Offenses Involving Certain Other Medals- If a decoration or medal involved in an offense described in subsection (a) or (b) is a distinguished-service cross awarded under section 3742 of title 10, a Navy cross awarded under section 6242 of title 10, an Air Force cross awarded under section 8742 of section 10, a silver star awarded under section 3746, 6244, or 8746 of title 10, a Purple Heart awarded under section 1129 of title 10, or any replacement or duplicate medal for such medal as authorized by law, in lieu of the punishment provided in the applicable subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.'.
- It's abundantly clear that it only refers to a military award, not a joke award with the same name. --Haemo 17:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems ridiculous
I find this whole thread incredulous. Sigh...
- "Any false verbal, written or physical claim..."
False claim? OMG! Do people really have nothing better to do with their time?
For the record, I never really enjoyed being awarded this as a wikimedal and never moved it to my user page. I did not want to reject it as to offend the awarding user either, so I just did not act on it.
But I am still amazed that this issue was seriously discussed here from this particular angle. Oh, and I won't be keeping it at my talk page if this is what makes users uncomfortable. Just sharing my being bemused by this whole development. --Irpen 21:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- At the risk of going to jail for a year and a $10,000 fine, your free to readd it :) — Moe ε 22:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
This was posted to my talk page, possibly by somebody who thought I was an admin (should I be? didn't think I was ripe yet)
External Links on M.U.L.E. page violates Software Copyrights
This is complain for Wikipage on M.U.L.E. [[22]]
BLACKBEARD27K is linking to his personal Website. M.U.L.E. Software Download When that was deleted by the Admins, he is now (indirectly) linking to it via another personal Website.
(1) BLACKBEARD27K is offering, on the above Website, for download a pirated / modified / hacked version of the game M.U.L.E. without the permission of the original authors or publishers ATARI. This is a serious violation of copyright material.
(2) It is in violation of WP:EL as it is SPAM and he is trying to propagate his own web-site Forum here.
(3) Wikipedia is NOT a collection of links.
(4) Also, using common sense, no one should download any executable software from a very unreliable source (as above). Such software may contain trojans and keyloggers which steal your personal information (including Credit Card Nos & passwords)
This individual persists in reverting the deletions. I have deleted the offending link.
Hungrywolf 11:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
--Orange Mike 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Strange. The direct link was added in December 2005. It was removed a week ago. The link happens to appear within an article discussing the game, and Hungrywolf has already decided that it must be BLACKBEARD27K's site? Also...I think both might be over 3RR by now. --Onorem♠Dil 13:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks like the same two editors have been warring at the Field Commander page also. --Onorem♠Dil 13:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should be overly concerned. Enforcing copyright law is not our job, it is the job of the copyright holder. There's nothing illegal about linking to a page that links to a page where you can download something illicit. I'm not saying we should go overboard and link to full versions on TouTube for all movies and BitTorrent links to full downloads for all software, but I don't see this issue being so important that it needs to be brought to WP:ANI. --Cyde Weys 13:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- By policy, we generally don't knowingly link to websites that violate copyrights. A site to illegally download a game would seem to be rather off limits, although I agree that it could probably be resolved without coming here. --B 22:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Our external links policy mentions about what to do about links with copyright offending materials, such as mp3's and video clips. But, it is a good idea to just avoid linking to pages which their only purpose is to download illicit goods. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Before anyone jumps into this, I have to say there's a history here. These two have been sniping at each other for weeks (they're bringing an outside feud onto Wiki). It has to do with an outside forum. The Evil Spartan 06:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Our external links policy mentions about what to do about links with copyright offending materials, such as mp3's and video clips. But, it is a good idea to just avoid linking to pages which their only purpose is to download illicit goods. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I've seen M.U.L.E. as abandonware. Are you sure Atari is the original publisher?⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 04:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Arto Tunçboyacıyan
Last time I checked this image had a license this user has deleted many pictures without any mention or talk, to even the uploader --Vonones 13:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The image was uploaded with the tag {{Somewebsite}} by User:Armatura on the 27th January. This was changed the next day to {{PD-self}} by User:Artaxiad. There is no explanation on the page as to why he did that. I'll take a look. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Turns out he is a banned user. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- OK I've checked through both [User:Armatura|]] and Artaxiads contributions and can find no evidence of them talking to each other at that time. In the light of this I see no reason to trust that this photo is really public domain and support the deletion. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Turns out he is a banned user. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Movieguy999
On the Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones and Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Movieguy999, who is completely ignoring consensus made on the talk pages of these articles, has been repeatedly removing well-cited material. While I have tried to stop it, he has, once again, removed the well-cited material. He has said in his most recent comment on Talk:Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith#My problems with this article that he had made attempts at resolving this situation. He has said that the discussion has been completely one-sided. He said that he had made my case, the article clearly has issues, and has said no one has made an attempt to resolve them. He has said that he has given exact details of what is wrong and said that The Filmaker has done nothing but point to other articles and his own fan opinion. I didn't want to break 3RR, for which I made two reverts on TPM, so I had to report this situation here. Greg Jones II 14:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I have instantly reverted his edits on TPM (second rv) and ROTS (first rv) along with User:EEMeltonIV on AOTC (first rv). Greg Jones II 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I am responding to show my support for this. There are problems with these articles and I would be interested in having an impartial mediator come in on this. There are several users who safe-guard these articles, who have close ties to admin's (which can be substantiated by checking their talk pages).
These users communicate through their talk pages with these admins, then they bait the user into breaking the 3rr rule so that they can have them banned. The user then goes away and the article squatters get their way. This can again all be substantiated by checking their talk pages.
The biggest issue is their citing of sources simply to give their fan opinion credibility. It's easy to find a rotten review on the internet and then use that as a source for saying "Most people thought this or that..."
The article has many weasel words. Directly from the WP:Weasel Words page, words such as "critics say..." and "some argue that...", are known in Wikipedia as Weasel words.
Yet, here they are in these articles. I've tried to remove them and been met with extreme resistence. You can see from the discussion pages of this article that I have made many attempts to resolve the situation and I have gone into detail as to what problems are there, but had little discussion. Even the user who is reporting this has done nothing but revert my edits.
Movieguy999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Movieguy999 (talk • contribs) 15:24, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
- I am not a liar. I have done many things other than revert your edits (I am not your servant, nor are you an administrator). Your keeping on removing the well-cited information is definitely not appreciated, so we need some help resolving this situation. Greg Jones II 15:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I apologize for my angry replies towards Movieguy999 if I got upset, but we need this situation resolved. Greg Jones II 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked Movieguy999 for 24 hours for violating WP:3RR on Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. --Hemlock Martinis 18:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I reviewed TPM. I examined the diff between the two versions, and found ONE change I argeed with Movieguy999 about. I reverted that singular piece, and put why on the talk page. As to the general behavior, he's not listening, but you aren't talking enough either. be clear about your defenses of the current writing, and why change is not needed. A well worded response to the issues means having a defense at the ready next time, and you can link to the archive and be done with it. Finally, I suggested a comparison of the current state of the article to it's FA Article status version, and examination of the differences and building new consensus from there if needed. ThuranX 19:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Accusation of anti-semitism and terrorism
I opened an AfD on an article related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here; then User:EAEB voted "Strong Keep This AFD is obviously based on anti-semetic and anti-zionist POV." I demanded a retraction on the AfD and posted a {{uw-npa3}} on EAEB's talk page. His response: "Why should I? Are you going to suicide bomb my house?" and (partially) "Your own comments clearly demonstrate your anti-semetic motives". I request whatever administrator action is considered appropriate in such cases. Eleland 14:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't really think action is needed... your demand of a retraction was worded such that it only really served to escalate things, as does templating people in a situation like this. His reply was over the top though... everyone just needs to tone it down. --W.marsh 15:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- You couldn't have said that before I warned him to tone it down and focus on the content of a debate rather than a user, or risk being blocked? ;o) Resolute 15:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Have we really reached the point where an apparently good-faith AfD nom is enough to accuse an editor of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism? Personally, I'm becoming of the opinion that we should be quicker to hand out blocks all around, on any side, to editors who clearly view Wikipedia as a battlefield. Such blocks would be preventive in the truest sense of the word, and possibly lessen the load on ArbCom down the line. MastCell Talk 18:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (refactored to colons not asterisks). I'm with Mastcell. a crackdown on the agenda warrior battlefield editors would do a lot. There are cases, however, where the 'battlefield' comparison doesn't work, so there are times where we still need to be conscientious of what is and isn't a good case for this crackdown, but I'd support a general move to 'intolerance of intolerance'. ThuranX 18:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Have we really reached the point where an apparently good-faith AfD nom is enough to accuse an editor of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism? Personally, I'm becoming of the opinion that we should be quicker to hand out blocks all around, on any side, to editors who clearly view Wikipedia as a battlefield. Such blocks would be preventive in the truest sense of the word, and possibly lessen the load on ArbCom down the line. MastCell Talk 18:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- You couldn't have said that before I warned him to tone it down and focus on the content of a debate rather than a user, or risk being blocked? ;o) Resolute 15:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Having cooled down a bit, I acknowledge that I could have handled the situation a little bit better, however, I am still upset at being told that "everyone just needs to tone it down." I find this a disturbingly equivocal approach; can we acknowledge that saying "retract your accusation" instead of "please retract your implication" is in no way comparable to making scatter-shot claims of anti-Semitism because you don't agree with a proposal? Eleland 22:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
User Posting Spam
User:Mayleaf appears to be an account set up with the sole purpose of posting spam links. A list of his contributions can be viewed here [24] he has been warned on his Talkpage about this by another editor but he's still posting them. Kelpin 15:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Definitely a spam-only account. Indefinitely blocked, all spamming removed. Neil ム 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I hate spammers. That said, this individual was warned, and instead of reposting the spam he went to Talk, said he was helping out his friends at the site, noted the link, and was then blocked before we could find out if he was going to press it. Not saying it's wrong, just a "hmmmm." Guy (Help!) 17:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- He reposted the link at the talk pages of some 120 articles, making no other contributions, before it was reported. As an aside, those talk pages that had a response to his link were unilaterally against including them on the articles (not that it has a particular bearing ... spam is spam is spam). Neil ム 08:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also the user was warned about his Talkpage posts on 22 August (his 2nd warning) but he continued to post spam without any explanation for his rationale afterwards. Kelpin 08:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Its been subsequently added Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#http:.2F.2Fspam.tourdates.co.uk. --Hu12 09:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also the user was warned about his Talkpage posts on 22 August (his 2nd warning) but he continued to post spam without any explanation for his rationale afterwards. Kelpin 08:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- He reposted the link at the talk pages of some 120 articles, making no other contributions, before it was reported. As an aside, those talk pages that had a response to his link were unilaterally against including them on the articles (not that it has a particular bearing ... spam is spam is spam). Neil ム 08:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I hate spammers. That said, this individual was warned, and instead of reposting the spam he went to Talk, said he was helping out his friends at the site, noted the link, and was then blocked before we could find out if he was going to press it. Not saying it's wrong, just a "hmmmm." Guy (Help!) 17:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
How much grace do we give?
We have a user who is making a mess of the articles. He has been making edits such as adding parameters twice to infoboxes, ignoring project standards, using unreliable sources, etc. We have tried several times to communicate with him but he does not understand English well enough to understand what we are saying. What do we do? I assume we can't block him... but it is getting bad. We can't check every single edit this guy makes due to time, although we practically have to... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 18:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Who? Diffs? Details? thanks. ThuranX 19:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- User:Freewayguy. We have edits like this [25] where he drops a parameter needed. We have [26], a messed up infobox with parameters being used twice, extra parameters being used, a link to California State Highway 11 that is unrelated to the subject, etc. This user is unsure of what he is doing and making messes of articles that we have to clean up. It is getting to the point where we have to check every edit he makes. Problem is, that is a waste of our time when we have other tasks at WP:USRD needing to be done.. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- And his "blocking" someone [27] and random mumblings [28]. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 20:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- If he doesn't respond to english, and is harming the project, it can be considered disruption. I've seen editors blocked before for repeated good-faith edits that do nothing but worsen article quality because they don't speak english. Maybe this needs an official policy somewhere? --lucid 09:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. While newcomers are all welcomed, i think that it should be remembered that the English Wikipeida is the English Wikipedia, and one should at least be able to respond to posts made in English. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 09:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- If he doesn't respond to english, and is harming the project, it can be considered disruption. I've seen editors blocked before for repeated good-faith edits that do nothing but worsen article quality because they don't speak english. Maybe this needs an official policy somewhere? --lucid 09:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- He also seems to be a high school student, and only 16. This is not an excuse; I know people who were published novelists at 16, but since he seems to have been in the US since he was under a year old, I think it's just the inability of some teenagers to write coherently yet, not an ESL language issue. --Thespian 09:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Bot being disruptive, owner not responding to the criticism.
Please see Wikipedia talk:Bot policy#ImageRemovalBot problem - User:ImageRemovalBot is still having problems with galleries as raised weeks ago (see this edit for an example of the problems caused where it outright removed their second album "Madonna"), yet the owner doesn't want to do anything about it (as you can see by his responses to me on User talk:Carnildo and the original bot policy discussion), citing that fair use in band galleries is more important than the actual accuracy - something I strongly disagree with. May I propose that the bot be blocked until it the problem is fixed and can deal with these galleries more transparently by removing the images without breaking their content? There's no doubt it's disruptive. Thanks. -81.178.126.124 19:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Have you raised the issue at The bot owners noticeboard? --SXT4 20:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, but it's already been raised in three places, to the bot owner himself directly, the bot's talk page and the Bot policy noticeboard, is a third really required? Particularly as Wikipedia:Bot Policy suggests "If you spot a problem or have a complaint about a specific bot, take your query to the bot operator's talk page. If you think the problem is serious and would like greater input, leave a short note at Wikipedia talk:Bots pointing to the discussion at the operator's talk page. An admin can block on sight any bot that appears to be out of control." -81.178.126.124 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've put a remark on WP:BOWN linking to here. I think that this counts as WP:BOT: "Sysops should block bots, without hesitation, [...] doing something the operator did not say they would do, messing up articles". Why hasn't there been a response? How much bureaucracy is there on Wikipedia?!? All I want to do is stop a broken bot until it's fixed, and to do that I have to post on 4 pages! -81.178.126.124 20:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, but it's already been raised in three places, to the bot owner himself directly, the bot's talk page and the Bot policy noticeboard, is a third really required? Particularly as Wikipedia:Bot Policy suggests "If you spot a problem or have a complaint about a specific bot, take your query to the bot operator's talk page. If you think the problem is serious and would like greater input, leave a short note at Wikipedia talk:Bots pointing to the discussion at the operator's talk page. An admin can block on sight any bot that appears to be out of control." -81.178.126.124 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
First, this isn't "breaking" things - had you posted an explanation to Carnildo's talk page, he could have looked in to it. What you did was shut off the bot, just like it says in a bright yellow warning on the page you actually posted to. Try having civil discussion next time and a little patience. Shell babelfish 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. To quote User talk:ImageRemovalBot "If the bot is malfunctioning", the bot was malfunctioning so I posted an explanation to User talk:ImageRemovalBot, the owner deleted it without replying to me. On contacting him again on his talk page to see if it was fixed, he pointed me towards policy that didn't address the problem at hand at all. Upon checking Wikipedia talk:Bot policy, it was already reported there (see Wikipedia talk:Bot policy#ImageRemovalBot problem), but not fixed from over 2 weeks ago and that the bot owner "doesn't see it as an issue". Why are you continuing to let this bot, which is known to create problematic unintentional edits, continue to edit? And why are you accusing me of doing things wrong when I've pursued every avenue to get this sorted?!? Are you saying removing albums from a band's discography, making it misleading, is a good thing and isn't broken functionality?!? Block this broken bot. -81.178.126.124 21:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you're using a gallery to make a discography, that would be your first issue. Notice how my more polite request on the talk page got an answer? This isn't broken, there is no reason to leave an image caption in a gallery when the image has been deleted. Shell babelfish 22:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I understand using a gallery to make a discography is frowned on (I didn't create it, just noticed it was wrong!), but it's replaced with something that is outright incorrect by removing the album entirely. It's fundamentally broken functionality. -81.178.126.124 23:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree and so have others; the reason you've had to take this so many places is because you aren't getting the answer you want. By the way, starting an MfD on my userspace header because you didn't like my opinion wasn't the best of ideas. Shell babelfish 23:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Minesweeper (computer game) edit war
Assuming it's my fault, this is the revert that marks the start of the edit war. [29]
I can't see any reason - other than WP:COI - why User:88.82.46.193 should be so insistent that the illustrations for this article must be screenshots from KMines, rather than the previously-used generic images (produced by another editor in order to resolve a dispute that led to an RfC).
I've attempted to discuss the matter but I can't get any response beyond shifting the burden of proof onto the creator of the original images and an edit comment mentioning "undew wait".
If the consensus is that we're both guilty of edit warring, go ahead and ban us both for a while. I'll take a short wikibreak if that's judged to be necessary. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 19:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Note that the edit war has spread to the images themselves: [30] Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 19:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Your oversimplify and extrapolate.Mister rodrigo camargo has lied."I can't see any reason - other than WP:COI" well apparently you lack imagination,what can i say.He said that he made them manually,there is evidence that this is not the case.I didn't shift the burden of prouf on him,i just asked why it was only up too me to prouve that they are screenshots,as your question implied.You actually didn't say anything on the questions that i asked.Also,puting only your side of the story,behind my back, here ,isn't very nice.--88.82.46.193 19:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- the IP editor is clearly shifting the burden of proof to others. I can't see any reason to put the IP's favored program up. I also wonder why the article reads like a how to manual. ThuranX 19:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is almost a separate issue, but... This edit[31] and the next six edits in this IP's contribs [32] are all changes to Image pages where s/he changes the comment made by the original image uploader. It feels like some WP law is being broken here, but I don't know what. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- You've both broken WP:3RR, if I count correctly. I do agree with ThuranX, if someone makes a statement such as "those are screenshots", the burden of proof is on them to show that they are. How is one supposed to prove that they aren't, anyway? You can't prove a negative. --Kbdank71 20:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- "The burden of prouf is on them" like the porn images of publicgirl?.--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- You've both broken WP:3RR, if I count correctly. I do agree with ThuranX, if someone makes a statement such as "those are screenshots", the burden of proof is on them to show that they are. How is one supposed to prove that they aren't, anyway? You can't prove a negative. --Kbdank71 20:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is almost a separate issue, but... This edit[31] and the next six edits in this IP's contribs [32] are all changes to Image pages where s/he changes the comment made by the original image uploader. It feels like some WP law is being broken here, but I don't know what. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- For falisfyiing Image pages, I'd support a long (one week?) block on that IP, or article semi-protection, to preclude that IP editing the pages. Or both. ThuranX 20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't falsify anything.You are going to block an dynamic adress for a week?--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- For falisfyiing Image pages, I'd support a long (one week?) block on that IP, or article semi-protection, to preclude that IP editing the pages. Or both. ThuranX 20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
He was aware of the programme existence before he posted his images here.You can tell because he posted his skins[33].Also he claimed that he made them entirely(including the big 3BV of 59[34]) by hand (with paint)and that "This image is not a screenshot of any program",do you beleave that?If you compare his skins that he posted with the "images",they basacly have a cople of pixels of diference.Someware up in this page he sais that,the images numbers are "a slightly modified version of Fixedsys and MS Sans Serif",why did he do that?Why go the trouble of removing or adding pixels?I can't check but the skins that he posted are they "Fixedsys and MS Sans Serif"?The 1 and 3(the numbers) are basecly his skin numbers minus the fusy part.And why are they exacly the same size?The colors seems identical,are they exactly the same (i mean,by checking the code)?And why he didn't tell us about the program?--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This one is so ridiculous I think we can prove a negative. The image uploaded to Wikipedia uses solid black lines; Minesweeper .34 uses dashed lines and Minesweeper X uses solid grey lines in the base image and other variations in the skins. The flags are of a different shape than any used by the Minesweepers available at the link you gave. Since the colors used are pure green, blue and red whether or not the are exactly the same is moot. Unless you've got something more, stop being a disruption. Shell babelfish 20:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Semi-protected. --Kbdank71 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (e/c)I've blocked for 24 hours for now for a now-deleted edit, where 88.82.46.193, posts what he claims to be SheffieldSteel's IP address (personal info he has not chosen to share). Anyone should feel free to extend the block for the disruption to image, etc. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 20:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. Is it possible to blank that from my User page history? I don't know what my exact IP is but the city was correct. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 20:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- All the fuss was about having images that are not from any program.The uploader said that he made them manually.The spessific program is skinable.Plus i demand that my old ip is unblocked imediatly,i didn't do anything wrong.About,SheffieldSteel's IP i was making a point,about something he said for me to create an account and privacy,just ask him.--88.82.32.78 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- WP:POINT. --Kbdank71 20:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- "All the fuss" meant,why we had an argument from months before.Now,i whant my old ip unblocked.And don't block this one,this is about justice.Can you peopol stop being,so literal,i feel like if i'm writing a program.--88.82.32.78 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes,i whant a reply,please.--88.82.32.78 21:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- "All the fuss" meant,why we had an argument from months before.Now,i whant my old ip unblocked.And don't block this one,this is about justice.Can you peopol stop being,so literal,i feel like if i'm writing a program.--88.82.32.78 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- WP:POINT. --Kbdank71 20:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- All the fuss was about having images that are not from any program.The uploader said that he made them manually.The spessific program is skinable.Plus i demand that my old ip is unblocked imediatly,i didn't do anything wrong.About,SheffieldSteel's IP i was making a point,about something he said for me to create an account and privacy,just ask him.--88.82.32.78 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. Is it possible to blank that from my User page history? I don't know what my exact IP is but the city was correct. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 20:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (e/c)I've blocked for 24 hours for now for a now-deleted edit, where 88.82.46.193, posts what he claims to be SheffieldSteel's IP address (personal info he has not chosen to share). Anyone should feel free to extend the block for the disruption to image, etc. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 20:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I've replaced the images with SVG versions. So problem solved. Feel free to edit the SVG until your heart is content. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Fourdee making racist postings
Just a note that Fourdee is making blatantly racist posts on several articles and/or talk pages [35][36][37][38][39], and I believe this is getting out of hand. Can an admin please look into it? The links I put together I did in about 5 minutes of looking through hs contribution history, and they're not all equally grievous, but I think this is worth looking into. Thanks!--Ramdrake 19:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just making a comment as an outside observer, the first one looks to be the worst (no excuse for the wording, tone, and message) while the rest are really strong opinion. Both of you seem to be locked into a edit war/wikistalking campaign. Spryde 19:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fine, I can accept your opinion. I just wanted to make sure a third, uninvolved party was aware of these postings. I was careful not to suggest any action, due to my involvement.--Ramdrake 19:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- No problem. I am not trying to judge anyone but put a perspective on it. Spryde 19:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think Fourdee should be blocked for at least 24 hours and warned that any more rascist spew like the first comment would result in an indefinite block. His comments go beyond what the media says and gives his opinions about the superirority of white women over black women. This is never acceptable except in white piower circles, SqueakBox 19:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- No problem. I am not trying to judge anyone but put a perspective on it. Spryde 19:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fine, I can accept your opinion. I just wanted to make sure a third, uninvolved party was aware of these postings. I was careful not to suggest any action, due to my involvement.--Ramdrake 19:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd note that making an ass of oneself on talk pages should not be prohibited; it provides an excellent guide to one's opinions and credibility. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This comment should be added as well. There is also another statement on archive 16 of Talk:Holocaust: « This article is overblown with propaganda full of questionable numbers for not-very-wrong killings of bad persons festering within the borders of germany and neighboring areas. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 18:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC) » Again, just a random sample of his utterances. --Mathsci 19:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wow. That was one of the most code-filled obnoxious anti-semitic diatribes that I've read in a long time, and being Jewish, I've seen and heard it all. But if he wants to be a racist and disgusting, I don't care. I'm a firm supporter of free-speech and all--I would not support a block or a community ban. But I hope when fourdee has a heart-attack, the Jewish cardiologist ignores his racism and saves his life.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This comment should be added as well. There is also another statement on archive 16 of Talk:Holocaust: « This article is overblown with propaganda full of questionable numbers for not-very-wrong killings of bad persons festering within the borders of germany and neighboring areas. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 18:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC) » Again, just a random sample of his utterances. --Mathsci 19:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not necessarily coded anti-semitic; he may be angry at socialists, gays, anarchists, Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, Esperantists, Romany, labor activists, or other "bad persons" that were killed. --Orange Mike 20:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Editors having an opinion is of course allowed, and I am commenting on the content of the articles or responding to openly expressed opinions offered by other people. There's nothing saying a person who is racist or a nazi-sympathizer cannot edit and with appropriate civility share his views on articles, any more than a person who is a marxist, or a terrorist, or a pedophile, or any sort of belief, cannot with due civility share his views on the biases contained in articles and the problems with sources or paradigms used. People on wikipedia, including many admins, express very extreme and potentially offensive political views all the time - in the course of editing and discussing edits.
- The first edit cited is a response to the opinion expressed by the previous poster that the media is being "manipulated" to give more coverage of missing white women. What I am saying is that the article and its editors are pushing a really offensive, vicious POV - the point is to discuss the article and genuinely not to air my views. This is by no means outside the tone I have often had directed at me and I view these incessant complaints as nothing more than a campaign to silence editors who have opposing points of view on the content of articles.
- Wikipedia does not have approved points of view for editors to work under and I don't see how my behavior is anything but the mirror image of that of many other editors. Censorship would severely hinder Wikipedia and also weaken some important legal defenses it has in terms of not controlling the content. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you're a disgusting human being. But I defend your right to say whatever you want. You should not be censored for being a racist. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would agree. But should comments like "nobody cares about missing negresses or are not surprised when it happens - people care more about violence against white women" [40] be dealt with? That is pushing opinion to its limits and can be considered shouting fire in a theater. Spryde 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you're a disgusting human being. But I defend your right to say whatever you want. You should not be censored for being a racist. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
For example SqueakBox says on my user talk page "You may believe your own deluded rubbish but others find it offensive and this kind of behaviour is simply not tolerable". I think that is far more of a personal attack or incivility than the things I have said, but is the sort of persistent attack I have faced on wikipedia. We see the same from orangemarlin above and many others. I have very rarely complained about this and do try to be understanding that some people have extremely different views and may be so frustrated or dumbfounded that they inadvertantly toss out a personal attack. I do the best I can to keep the polemics out, especially as directed at individuals or other editors, and stick to the problems with articles and beliefs or bias they may reflect. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 20:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- How could what I wrote possibly be considered offensive? And how would anyione with a modicum of reasoning not find Fourdee's hate-filled statements other than being a personal attack against black women. I have changed my mind and think he shopuld be blocked indefinitely, perhaps at the community sanctions noticeboard if no admin here will do it, SqueakBox 20:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Here are a couple more that are blatantely anti-Semitic: [41], [42]. We have banned people before for such things. I think it is important to make clear two things: first, Fourdee has put a lot of racist talk on the talk pages, and he has made it clear that he wants to incert his racist views into articles themselves: [([43] but I believe that such talk actually obscures the issue. the issue is the way Fourdee is manipulating Wikipedia to make an end-run around our policies. Talk pages are for discussions to improve the articles, and I am sure Fourdee sincerly believes that adding his racist views to articles will improve them ... but as long as other editors are vigelant, his racist views will not be added to articles. The result is never the end of the discussion on the talk paqge. Despite the fact that his ideas seldom enter articles, he continues to add considerable amounts of material onto talk pages. Why? in effect he is turning talk pages into his own blog - he has hijacked out talk pages to publicize his racist views. The awful thing is, if he added them to an article they woule be deleted because they would violate various policies. But you all know there is a strong ethic here never to remove people's comments from talk pages. In this way, he ensures that the content he wants stays in Wikipedia. i suspect he prefers that his talk never actually enter articles because on talk pages he feels protected. But Wikipedia should not protect racist content, and not let its talk pages be hijacked to promote content that we would never let stay in an article. He has been blocked before. If it is premature to ban him, put him on parole and wait and see. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Now I undestand why he is completely irrelevant to the WP:NPOV policy, the racist bias in those comments (most notably the first one) is unacceptable and it breaches WP:CIVIL by a long shot, yet this is the man that vandalized El C's user page because he has images of revolutionaries that he feels are "terrorists", well Wikipedia isn't the place to push any kind of white supremacist or black power pov, doing so only affects the image of community as a whole and must be punished, I recommend opening a Request for Arbitration and let the administrators decide what's the best diciplinary measure, this is beyond a noticeboard violation. - Caribbean~H.Q. 20:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- well, it's offensive, racist, bigoted and ignorant. He's a holocaust denier and a pro-nazi sympathizer. Block him or don't we all know what kind of person he is, and how to view any suspicious edits he ever makes again, and with a thread like this, he won't be an admin ever. I'd support a block for the ridiculous violations of CIVIL. ThuranX 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am in agreement. He whines about how we treat him, then attacks El C's page. I'm still going to defend Fourdee's right to make an ass out of himself, because I find censorship abhorrent. If he tries to edit an article to make it more racist, there are 100's of editors who'll fix it. And I don't give a crap about civility. That's just a bogus attempt to censor people on this project. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Also falls into WP:GAME?--F3rn4nd0 (Roger - Out) 20:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks like Jimbo [[44]] took care of this/is taking care of this. Spryde 20:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep. Good call by Jimbo. Should have been done much earlier in my opinion.--Jersey Devil 20:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dammnit I was on my way to block him myself. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 20:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- As was I. Jimbo also beat me to it. It was an obvious call IMHO.--Jersey Devil 20:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
You know what this means, don't you? As of now we are all on sock-puppet patrol. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Since when were we ever NOT on sock patrol? - Crockspot 20:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh thank god! I had an edit conflict and is has since been resolved, but I'm still going to post it.
- Also, he reported me for NPA for calling him a racist and a Nazi, which on Wikipedia is supposed to be avoided at all cost. And calling someone a Nazi is concidered to be the most evil personal attack and bad faith, and I was blocked for it for 48 hours. Yet, this person is a self-proclaimed Nazi and racist! This crap of policy is totally screwed up. - Jeeny Talk 20:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Pfft! - Jeeny Talk 20:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- On a less positive note, I wrote a WP email yesterday to User:Theresa knott expressing my dismay at Fourdee's racist comments. She fobbed me off in a not very helpful way. I would be grateful if WP could draw up some guidelines on the issue of general racist offence. Thanks. --Mathsci 20:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- You should probably start a thread on the NPA talk page outlining some proposals, ie we are wikipedia, SqueakBox 21:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
It was a bad decision to block fourdee. MoritzB 21:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Any particular reason you feel that, considering the overwhelming consensus here and the rather blatant examples presented? Tony Fox (arf!) 21:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because fourdee was an established user responsible for a huge volume of edits. Many of them were not related to race. His positive contributions outweigh the few racist comments he made on talk pages.
- I fear that a dangerous precedent was established if users can become banned because 0.01% are edits are racist talk page comments intended to provoke/troll. Perhaps he had a bad day and decided to make harsh, racist comments to provoke discussion.
- 24 hours may be justified but a perma-ban was unwarranted.
- MoritzB 21:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- If 0.01% of a prodigious number of edits are intended to provoke and troll over a long period of time, your conduct is disruptive, and you should be prepared to either check your tongue or face the consequences. --Haemo 22:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzB is either naive or has a self-interest in defending a racist; Fourdee was not having a bad day, he was acting as he always acts. Jimbo has always been vigilant about not letting people use Wikipedia to spread racist views. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him. That said, I share Orangemarlin's discomort at blocking someone just becuase he holds views I despise. Therefore, I do not agree with Matchsci that what we need is a guideline on racism. Here is what I think we ought to be working on: a content policy for talk pages. I am not proposing anyting new. What I am proposing is that we take elements of an existing policty, namely this and this, copy them from the [Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not] policy and edit them to apply specifically to talk pages, which is where these particular elements of the policy most often apply. In addition, we should include in the proposed policy guidelines for enforcement e.g. if three different people have had separate occasions on the same talk page to use the "off topic" template or the "not a forum" warning, they can request that an admin review the incidents and if s/he deems it fitting warn the editor that a fourth such incident will result in a 24 hour block. What do you think? Does anyone want to start working on this? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd second that and would be ready to lend a hand.--Ramdrake 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that Slr's suggestions are exactly the sort of thing that is needed. I was a little imprecise in what I said and in fact was rather hoping that Slr would intervene, in view of his known experience. Thanks, Mathsci 23:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd second that and would be ready to lend a hand.--Ramdrake 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- There is already Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines which should already have this sort of thing covered. It says in bold right at the top that talk pages should not be used as a platform for editor's own personal opinions. Friday (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I am suggesting elevating some of these to an enforcable policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- What's unenforceable about it now? Editors already prune irrelevant content from talk pages when they feel it's a good idea to do so. If an editor repeatedly rants on talk pages despite being told to cut it out, they can be blocked for disruption. This is already standard practice. Friday (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
You are the one who refered to the guideline. As you know, no guideline is enforcable. That is the difference between guidelines and policies.
- It may be that we end up doing that, but we should be very careful in doing so. Right now, the list of personal beliefs for which Wikipedia editing access will be denied is very small... pretty much just pedophilia, though being pro-genocide would probably do it as well.
- There are a lot of racists out there. Many of them aren't white supremacists; most racial and ethnic groups have their own closed-minded supremacist factions. There are also many who find a lot of the political beliefs out there extremely offensive (Fourdee in fact got in trouble earlier for going after editors with pro-Communist userpages in one form or another).
- There is a slippery slope here. If we set down a policy in writing, it's hard to keep it from expanding out to cover more things that we want over time, and the more things it covers the more fighting it will engender.
- It's easier just to on a case by case basis determine that extreme individuals are disruptive, in my opinion. Georgewilliamherbert 23:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand what I wrote: I stated specifically that the policy I am proposing would not ban any particular kind of speech. It would however prohibit using talk pages a particular way. I think there is a big difference here. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Slr in some way.. we need some warning tags for keeping civility in talk pages, the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines needs to be enforced so we don't have to be massing noticeboards with this type of "incidents" when one Admin can do the job after a set of warnings if the situation escalates. I don't know if those warnings already exist... the RfC is way too bureaucratic.. the warning tag will alert any Admin and this will end any type of dispute (same as vandals, create a CIVIL patrol). And.. I am not aware of some policies because I am usually editing articles and not being a policeman. By the way POVs in talkpages should be erased immediately... no room for replies.. just erase them that's how we got fourdee to stop editing in the FARC article--F3rn4nd0 (Roger - Out) 19:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Someone is showing poor maths. 0.01% is 1 in 10,000 and Fourdee has made about a third that number of edits. It wasnt merely the fact that his statement was rascist it was the content, IMO wrongly claiming that people care more about the murder of white women than black women it was a really disgusting rascist attack, and I dont think there is anyway in the world where that is true anymore. Besides it wasnt the only rascist attack he made just the worst of them, he was being deliberately provocative and failed to apologise or show any remorse when challenged about his behaviour, instead claiming that disagreeing with his views was worse than his views themselves. I think a discussion elsewhere about policy changes arising from this incident would be welcome but here is not the place for that, SqueakBox 23:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. Left-wingers often claim that because Americans are racist they do care more about the murder of white women than black women. Studies appear the confirm it. MoritzB 23:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am neither left, nor right, nor black, nor white. I am a wikipedian and should be treated w/ dignity as you may request for yourselves. Please have the courtesy to stop wikilawyering and whining about the block of fourdee. It is not about his golden plume; it is about his mouth. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 05:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Left wingers can claim what they want (I'm a right winger myself) but without some good sources it means nothing. The Spanish police busted some nasty for murdering an African black prostitute from the Casa del Campo in Madrid and she wasnt Spanish either (it was on Discovery and I know that part of Madrid well) while the UK police in 2007 dont give less priority to black victims as anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the UK would realise. I have limited knowledge of the US but I think pursuing the path you seem set on isnt helpful, please reconsider, SqueakBox 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. Left-wingers often claim that because Americans are racist they do care more about the murder of white women than black women. Studies appear the confirm it. MoritzB 23:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Someone is showing poor maths. 0.01% is 1 in 10,000 and Fourdee has made about a third that number of edits. It wasnt merely the fact that his statement was rascist it was the content, IMO wrongly claiming that people care more about the murder of white women than black women it was a really disgusting rascist attack, and I dont think there is anyway in the world where that is true anymore. Besides it wasnt the only rascist attack he made just the worst of them, he was being deliberately provocative and failed to apologise or show any remorse when challenged about his behaviour, instead claiming that disagreeing with his views was worse than his views themselves. I think a discussion elsewhere about policy changes arising from this incident would be welcome but here is not the place for that, SqueakBox 23:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Look, we can discuss the block all we want (for what it's worth, I support it), but it's a bit academic. He was blocked by Jimmy Wales - no admin is going to unblock him without Jimbo's say-so. As to the idea of a talk-page policy, I think it's instruction creep. The talk page guidelines are pretty clear, and in cases of egregious talk page abuse (like this one), blocks have been and will continue to be handed out. I would also suggest using the {{notaforum}} template on particularly troublesome talk pages and removing posts that blatantly violate the talk page guidelines. MastCell Talk 23:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- OK, was he banned because he's a racist or because some of you felt that he violated some obscure interpretation of WP:SOAP. This is pretty sad. I better clean up my user page, because I bitch about anti-evolution creationists, the LA Kings management, and how boring soccer is. Oh yeah, and I throw the f-bomb around quite liberally in my edit summaries. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your examples are compleely different. You dont like anti-evolutionists and I dont like cannabis law enforcement but these are issues of personal choice whereas the fact that I am wehite and my wife is black arent a matter of personal choice, they are inherent to our being. That is an enormous differenc3e, so slag me off for being pro cannabis legalisation but dont dare do so because I am white, SqueakBox 01:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzB has a right to complain but he should complain to Jimbo, not us. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Given he beat 2 respected admins to the block I would question that Jimbo should be held personally accountable for what was, at the end of the day, an excellent decision and entirely in line with his record as an admin and editor, SqueakBox 01:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I endorse the creation of such a policy, I will not be able to work on it directly since I'm working with the assessment of a few hundred pages but I will gladly offer a review and some suggestions when a preliminary version of it is ready. Now about Forbee's block by now it should be considered a ban, there are few admins that will oppose Jimbo's block so the chances of it being lifted are almost non-existent. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's already policy.--Chaser - T 00:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- A racist attack isn't the exact same thing as libel, for one they aren't directed at a person company or organizartion but to a complete ethnic group, what I meant to be clear is that I support the promotions of some of these guidelines to policy as suggested. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's already policy.--Chaser - T 00:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed lately much racist activity. Is there any particular reason? Are they taking advantage of the open nature of Wikipedia to propagate their unhuman and odd garbage? I've acted bold a month ago and indef one of this type of users User:Mariam83. Later on User:Phral appeared and he was indef by another admin that time after a long history of trolling and harassing others. And here we are now w/ User:Fourdee. It seems like racists are trying to hijack Wikipedia. Noway!! -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 05:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, there was also User:KarenAER, these people seem to have a habit of coming back as sockpuppets frequently as well, see how many sockpuppets Phral has, indeeded Phral is a sockpuppet of Hayden I think. Possibly there is some sort of coordinated campaign, last year User:Sugaar came across a post on the fascist website stromfront discussing the White people article.[45] Maybe something similar has happened again? Alun 06:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Issue stemming from this
- Speaking of not letting editors use talk pages as soapbox, can somebody go take a look here: [46] and give his or her uninvolved opinion? I've already removed it once (on the face of this discussion), but as I am involved personnally, I would rather let someone else judge this behavior (which I admit is the proper reflex I should have had the first time).--Ramdrake 00:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- As someone who'd never heard of either Afrocentricism or Dinesh D'Souza before reading this, I'd say that whatever you might think of the article, arguing that it be mentioned is at least a valid point; the author appears to be a significant political commentator on the neocon right & a Fellow at the Hoover Institution, not a lone-voice-in-the-wilderness crackpot. As long as the article makes it clear that D'Souza's views don't represent mainstream opinion, I don't see that it doesn't warrant a paragraph — iridescent (talk to me!) 11:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Aside from anything else, I'd say it blatantly violated the copyright of a page clearly marked Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC. (This is a strange oversight by its poster, whose writings in various talk pages show a keen interest in what is and isn't allowed in Wikipedia.) -- Hoary 12:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree it should be deleted for the copyvio - thought Ramdrake was questioning whether or not the material should be mentioned in the main article — iridescent (talk to me!) 12:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Free Republic is a discussion forum and does not own any copyrights to Dinesh D'Souza's work. Free Republic is careful to follow the copyright law and only allows to post copyrighted material which falls under the exemption fair use.
- MoritzB 18:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Even if it's fair use for Free Republic, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's also fair use for Wikipedia. 70.227.232.162 14:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree it should be deleted for the copyvio - thought Ramdrake was questioning whether or not the material should be mentioned in the main article — iridescent (talk to me!) 12:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Shinealight2007 going on WP:ATTACK spree
Because of rude accusations made against User:Justanother by User:Shinealight2007 here and here, I made a comment at the Wikiquette board about it [47] .
But in the minutes since, User:Shinealight2007 has drastically escalated it, attacking me as well on User talk:Shinealight2007 and turning my post at the Wikiquette noticeboard into a soapboxing mess. Someone please have a look. wikipediatrix 21:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've asked Shinealight2007 to stop. It would probably be best if everyone involved walked away for a bit. Shell babelfish 21:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Asking him to stop doesn't make the multiple libelous comments he's made go away. I've seen people blocked for a lot less than this. wikipediatrix 21:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also, this account's contributions appear indicate this is a sockpuppet of a more experienced user. Blocked for a week for attacks and disruption, meanwhile people are free to investigate who this is a sock of. Sandstein 21:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Asking him to stop doesn't make the multiple libelous comments he's made go away. I've seen people blocked for a lot less than this. wikipediatrix 21:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
More Mmbabies junk
Here's the latest on the Mmbabies sock watch (all from today):
- Talk:The Gospel Bill Show
- Believer's Voice of Victory
- SpongeBob SquarePants (think this is a new target)
- Template:Houston TV
IP's used:
- 68.89.172.90
- 68.88.233.133 (This IP was even used to vandalize with a edit summary concealing a death threat to Postoak, a user who has been active in challenging the vandalism).
WAVY 10 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, he used the first IP I posted today to try to evade a block. I just reverted the edit about a minute ago. WAVY 10 22:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This edit summary deserves a looooong break. Corvus cornix 22:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Eva Green spam?
In this edit, Alientraveller (talk · contribs) reinserted a link to a fansite that I had previously removed a couple of times and warned about. Alientraveller's response was "Like I said, this site is an invaluable resource, and has provided me with translations and citations". I'd like another opinion on this. The site is clearly just a fansite. It's better than most, granted, but it's still just a fansite. Worse, it has a number of copyright-violating images, though Alientraveller is not linking to any of them. It has long been standard to remove such fansites from articles. Am I wrong in this case? Did I miss a policy change? --Yamla 22:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fansites aren't reliable sources and quite often violate copyright. You are correct in removing that link. IrishGuy talk 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. --Yamla 22:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Obvious copyvio
If you will look at [48], it will be obvious that every picture this user has uploaded is a copyright violation. He has claimed to be the author of them all. I tagged them all, but there's one I couldn't find a URL on: Image:Mrchriscoste.jpg - but this is a really obvious copyvio. Could someone please delete? Thanks. The Evil Spartan 22:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Abuse of Authority
IrishGuy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Irishguy) is clearly abusing his authority, as well as poorly interpreting the rule forbidding the posting of "spam" in External Links.
There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia whose external links include fansites. I'm not going to cite examples, because then sad, power-hungry individuals like IrishGuy would indiscriminately blast them all. It's unfortunate that he has decided to single out an article about a B-movie most people have never heard of to abuse his authority. ManiacCopFans.com was begun by a friend and I to raise awareness of the movie. We have the blessing and support of Bill Lustig (director), Larry Cohen (writer), Robert Z'Dar, and Bruce Campbell. Yet, he seems to believe that this link violates a vague and subjective rule which is almost never enforced. The term "spam" denotes unsolicited marketing, not a link to a fansite. We make exactly zero dollars from the website, and it's only intended as a place for people to gather and discuss the films. How can IrishGuy ignore links to "official" movie sites (which are clearly commercial) and instead focus on ours?
Here is the article in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniac_Cop
Please help me to understand why an administrator like IrishGuy can repeatedly abuse his authority without intervention from others. I will respect your explanation and/or ruling, but I do not respect IrishGuy. Thank you very much.
kd4nuh 23:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Our external links policy discourages "Links mainly intended to promote a website." Linking your own website, even if it is not making you money at present, is considered spamming. What other articles may or may not have in their external links at the moment is irrelevant. You can use an article's talk page to discuss inclusion of a link. Grandmasterka 23:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The pertinent words in the above guideline being "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent". ELIMINATORJR 23:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This tirade has already been left in various places: [50] [51] [52]. This user has also brought forth numerous meatpuppets to continue inserting his link into various articles. He also left the following message IrishGuy, kindly fuck off. Thanks - Matt Cordell on various talk pages. He further left another abusive message here. IrishGuy talk 23:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (ec)::I must say, that while I hardly would call this an "abuse of authority" (it would be if Irishguy blocked the said user, the kind of thing I've seen before), I have to agree with kd4nuh. The EL guideline is only a guideline, and for good reasons. The said website is a good website, and there are no other external links (I have seen users give links to their websites before, and it was quite helpful to the WP page). In fact, it's probably a good thing if users who are knowledgeable about a subject have links to their website, as long as it's not promotional, as it helps the overall knowledge of the 'pedia. However, kd4nuh, I would say you haven't much of a leg to stand on, considering that you decided to revert Irishguy's change as "revert vandalism" and telling Irishguy to f*** off. That's totally inappropriate, and its' not going to make anyone want to bat for you. The Evil Spartan 23:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This tirade has already been left in various places: [50] [51] [52]. This user has also brought forth numerous meatpuppets to continue inserting his link into various articles. He also left the following message IrishGuy, kindly fuck off. Thanks - Matt Cordell on various talk pages. He further left another abusive message here. IrishGuy talk 23:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- (ec again)Doesn't look blocked to me. Though a 24 hour block is probably in line ("go to bed, take a day off, let the steam on your head cool down, I'm sure you're a good guy"). But please don't block for too long. The Evil Spartan 23:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- And this was his lovely reaction to his block: It's fine. I'll just register another account or fifty. Kindly go fuck yourself. IrishGuy talk 23:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Aaaaand we get this. Grandmasterka 23:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- We don't need stuff like this. If there's a good reason not to change the block length to indef, I can't think of it. Raymond Arritt 03:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- indef. There are some few good reasons to change the block length to indef...Total of 259 edits of which 170 were made to their own userpage, +/- 30% edit summary usage, and of course spamming and disruption threats. Let's move on. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 06:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I changed my mind. I feel indef is too harsh. We'll see. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 07:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- We don't need stuff like this. If there's a good reason not to change the block length to indef, I can't think of it. Raymond Arritt 03:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Aaaaand we get this. Grandmasterka 23:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The editor in question is apparently a role account, and a hostile one as well. If you look at the link they're trying to add, the screed agaisnt IG and wikipedia in general is probably within the guidelines for determining an attack site. I'd indef him and his IP. ThuranX 19:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Kd4nuh has returned as Americanhero1985 to evade his block. New account blocked. See his user page and edits for evidence. Identical reverts as Kd4nuh, identical userpage to Kd4nuh. IrishGuy talk 02:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indef for good now. I had assumed good faith more than necessary. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 09:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Giovanni33 causing problems
- Philippe | Talk 04:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This user has again decided to edit war on Woodrow Wilson over the addition of the Category:Racism. This user edits against consenus and by looking at his block log it is obvious he cannot be WP:CIVIL or compromise. This editor is being disruptive and I think it is time he be blocked indefinitly. His actions are in no way constructive. I think it is obvious that he enjoys to edit war and this is not acceptable.--Southern Texas 23:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. Full disclaimer: I've had issues with this user in the past. That being said, this user is a POV-pusher, and has had problems on a good number of articles. The Evil Spartan 23:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- There's an RfC going there which seems to have found a solid consensus. I think an admin could review nad mark this as resolved. ThuranX 04:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agree. You can add this to the RfC. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 05:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- There's an RfC going there which seems to have found a solid consensus. I think an admin could review nad mark this as resolved. ThuranX 04:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Logged out bot still editing
I'm not sure it's a crucial issue (in fact the bot is still doing good work), but User:145.97.39.143, the toolserver, is currently performing bot edits, and has been doing so for about a week, unnoticed. I can't figure this out - I believe it's either an incarnation of User:HermesBot (likely), or a bot maintained by User:ST47. The Evil Spartan 00:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not mine, looks like hermesbot. --ST47Talk·Desk 00:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- 99.9% sure it's Hermesbot. Has the operator been notified? --W.marsh 01:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- He fixed up some of it a few days ago. I've notified him again. The Evil Spartan 01:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- !@#$$^&. I thought it was fixed :/. Hm, well I've been running the image tagging task from my computer with zero problems, and the WP:SCV redlink removal is from the toolserver. The bot seemed to have been logging in for that. I'll pass on the SCV part to cobi to run until it gets ironed out. ~ Wikihermit 02:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- He fixed up some of it a few days ago. I've notified him again. The Evil Spartan 01:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- 99.9% sure it's Hermesbot. Has the operator been notified? --W.marsh 01:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Fair use abuse in galleries
Today, I removed a gallery of fair use images from Acorn Electron citing as usual WP:NFCC as basis [53]. The removal of such galleries has been a routine, ongoing, constant effort to reduce such abuse of fair use images. A short while later, User:Retro junkie reverted the removal [54]. Seeing this, I reverted the reinsertion of the images against policy [55] and left a note to User:Retro junkie on the matter [56] offering to answer any questions on the issue and noting that simple reversion was not an option. He chose to ignore my offer and reverted again [57], leaving me a note [58] essentially stating that my interpretation of policy was inaccurate and accusing me of "nothing short of vandalism", to quote him directly. I've reverted his re-insertion of the images yet again [59] and left him a note [60] indicating I was reporting this violation of policy here.
This gallery is nothing more than screenshots of the respective programs written for the computer in question. Many of the titles in the screenshots have separate articles on them. Fair use images are entirely appropriate for those articles, but not here on this article in gallery format.
I request that, should this user revert yet again that the re-insertion be undone and a warning left for the user to cease with forcing fair use galleries onto articles per our policies on the use of fair use images. Thank you for your time and attention, --Durin 01:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I request the (non admin) user Durin is given a warning to curb his obsessive behaviour regarding images. I do not see why he should be allowed to vandalise an article and then report anyone who dares to question him. If there are genuine concerns that the gallery is not needed or is excessive, it should be discussed on the article's discussion page. In the meantime it should be left there so the images are not orphaned (and anyone who happens to read the article for the first time is not denied an important descriptive section!). There seems to me to be no policy that rules against such use of images. In fact the policies quoted to me by Durin seem to back up the gallery 100%. I would appreciate a discussion on the article itself rather than a blanket 'many such galleries are deleted' statement. Surely the rules are a guide to help make decisions. Decisions should be made by rational human beings.Retro junkie 11:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep it civil, please. Per WP:NFCC - "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding" - so the question is "Does this gallery add to reader's understanding of the article"? and the answer is "No". Practically all those games have their own articles, so a simple linked list would suffice. ELIMINATORJR 11:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also if the answer to the above question is "yes" for some of the images please put the image near the relevant text that describe the capabilities or limitations identified by the image rater than just stuffing them into a gallery section at the end of the article. For example using a screenshot to help explain how some developers would work around memory limitations by spending some of the dedicated video memory on other things and how this would result in graphical artifacts outside of the active display area where the non-graphical data would be rendered sounds acceptable. You also have to write a non-free use rationale on the image page of each used image explaining how the image significantly increases the understanding of the article. --Sherool (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for some constructive discussion. I agree that may be a way forward however the quick reference and comparison would be lost by scattering images throughout the article. Oh and I know about fair use rationale - I hadn't realised they were missing (it wasn't me that uploaded those images). I have no problem adding them if they are going to stay. Could any helpful discussion on the specific Acorn Electron article please now be made on the discussion page?Retro junkie 15:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also if the answer to the above question is "yes" for some of the images please put the image near the relevant text that describe the capabilities or limitations identified by the image rater than just stuffing them into a gallery section at the end of the article. For example using a screenshot to help explain how some developers would work around memory limitations by spending some of the dedicated video memory on other things and how this would result in graphical artifacts outside of the active display area where the non-graphical data would be rendered sounds acceptable. You also have to write a non-free use rationale on the image page of each used image explaining how the image significantly increases the understanding of the article. --Sherool (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to comment on a particular aspect of this; that Retro junkie has requested discussion of removal of images before removal. I've run across this a number of times. The problem inherent in this is that we have approximately 380 thousand articles that have at least one fair use image on them and a large subset of these have images used against policy. If we were to have a debate about every removal we ever do, we might as well give up now. Conducting this work would become impossible. This is not to say I'm not willing to listen to people who protest the removal. In fact, quite the contrary. I work hard to educate people on this issue. Doing anything less would be counter to our purpose. But to have a debate every time we conduct a removal is an entirely different thing. Such a situation would make it impossible to maintain our fair use image situation in accordance with policy. --Durin 12:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to think some (hopefully almost all) of what you are deleting is without question breaching policy and not adding anything to the articles in question. Obviously discussion of all such articles would be unnecessary and virtually impossible however if there is some dispute, would it not be better to reinstate the gallery in question while it is being discussed or until it can be improved or better incorporated into the article as a whole?Retro junkie 15:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The gallery removal I did in this case was without question in line with policy. Yet, it was debated by you anyways. You still dispute it in fact Talk:Acorn_Electron#Screenshot gallery. --Durin 16:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Do you really believe it was 'without question' a breach of policy? Are you not prepared to even take a little of somebody else's opinion on board? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. It's just a shame that certain people's opinions seem to count more than others. Retro junkie 22:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've informed you of where to go to debate this. I heartily encourage you to do so. EVERYbody's opinion matters, and I've been a major supporter of first time, first edit editors getting as much respect as Jimbo. But in this case, it is a blatant abuse of fair use overuse. This has been explained to you multiple times by more people than myself, and you still disagree. --Durin 22:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Do you really believe it was 'without question' a breach of policy? Are you not prepared to even take a little of somebody else's opinion on board? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. It's just a shame that certain people's opinions seem to count more than others. Retro junkie 22:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The gallery removal I did in this case was without question in line with policy. Yet, it was debated by you anyways. You still dispute it in fact Talk:Acorn_Electron#Screenshot gallery. --Durin 16:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to think some (hopefully almost all) of what you are deleting is without question breaching policy and not adding anything to the articles in question. Obviously discussion of all such articles would be unnecessary and virtually impossible however if there is some dispute, would it not be better to reinstate the gallery in question while it is being discussed or until it can be improved or better incorporated into the article as a whole?Retro junkie 15:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Crediting Wikipedia
I'd like to be sure I'm properly crediting Wikipedia on my mashable creation wikirage if anyone has the time to review and tell me how I should appropriately cite Wikipedia for this data it would be appreciated w3ace 01:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks pretty good, except you'll want to mention GFDL, with a link to the license (preferably locally). The GFDL isn't really picky about that kind of thing (on purpose); as long as you make attribution. The Evil Spartan 02:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That means that he has to remove Copyright 2007 wikirage.com and mention GFDL or keep them both? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- He can have the copyright on his product. GFDL says someone can change our product and copyright that change (think, for example of Red Hat Linux). But he has to mention that the original text is licensed under GFDL. In other words, if he includes only text from Wikipedia, he has to say it's from Wikipedia, and that it's licensed under GFDL. Anything else he can copyright. The Evil Spartan 04:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Claiming copyright on material copied from Wikipedia is copyfraud. He is including summaries of Wikipedia articles on his statistics pages. He could claim fair use, if the quoted material is short. -- Petri Krohn 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That means that he has to remove Copyright 2007 wikirage.com and mention GFDL or keep them both? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism to Oakland, California
The optional parameter for nicknames has been repteadedly removed by ILike2BeAnonymous against consensus and established norms for city articles. He has done so under the claim that it needs to be discussed however the discussion died and inclusion of the nickname o-town has a 5 to 2 consensus, Oaktown is not debated at all and "The Town" is still not decided. This is regarding this particular edit here "Remove nickname, which is a bone of contention here, temporarily until resolved. It's STUPID to have it change 15 times a day instead.", and again here "("Vandalism" my ass. This has been discussed ad nauseam on the discussion page.)" and previous edits by an anonymous user immediatly before which I suspect may be from this user aswell here and here without edit summaries. This user has had his removal of the nickname O-town reverted several times by various users here,here,here,[61],here and many many times by me you can that here, his edit summaries are very dude, including this one were he calls everyone or everything stupid four times fast"This is STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. I'm taking away your toy ("nickname") until y'all stop squabbling over it. Meaningless piece of trivia anyhow ..", there are 8 warnings on his talk page and he is very uncivil as is evident on his talk page, he was recently warned by an administrator for removing the nicknames of Oakland, California and he still insists on doing so, again and again. the discussion on the talk page does not support his edits at all. This editor is just sore because he lost the debate over the inclusion of the nickanmes, the discussion has settled and he now is trying to bypass consensus by removing the nicknames parameter. He is in violation of the 3RR rule i believe, even more so if he is indeed that unregistered IP address. I believe he should be blocked for 72 hours and warned not to do this anymore.CholgatalK! 01:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Please forgive the rather long entry, but considering the editor I believed I should be thouroughCholgatalK! 01:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Summary:Template:Infobox City has a parameter for nicknames. ILike2BeAnonymous disagrees with the nicknames posted in the Infobox City template for the Oakland, California article and has removed both the nicknames and the parameter. They keep getting restored.-- Jreferee (Talk) 02:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- There's a very simple explanation for this: there is no consensus on these nicknames, despite Cholga's fevered protestations to the contrary. I simply removed this thing that has become a bone of contention because, to put it bluntly, it has started looking extremely stupid to see this aspect of the article changing every 10 minutes. I did this as a temporary stopgap measure. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- 1. It clearly is improper to remove the parameter in the article space since that is an issue to be addressed at Template:Infobox City. That parameter is to be left in the template on the article. 2. I'll take a look at the article talk page to see if there is consensus on these nicknames. Please leave that parameter in the article as is until the consensus issue is resolved. -- Jreferee (Talk) 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dispute resolution that-a-way, guys. If there are any allegations of sockpuppetry (and I note it being used by both of you, shame, shame), please take it here, or here. But there's no reason to be arguing this here. The Evil Spartan 02:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Cholga asked me to comment. Sorry, guys, disculpe me, mis amigos, I ain't gonna. My town is nick'ed Wormtown and other names, but I can't comment on vernacular terms from 3000 miles away. Gonna hafta sort this one out for yourselves, folks, and I love you both anyways. I really hope you can arrive at something that pleases you both, or at least whiffs you off igualmente los ambos. Such is consensus, my friends. __Just plain Bill 02:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dispute resolution that-a-way, guys. If there are any allegations of sockpuppetry (and I note it being used by both of you, shame, shame), please take it here, or here. But there's no reason to be arguing this here. The Evil Spartan 02:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am quite suprised to see that Cholga thinks I threatened him/her with a 3RR warning. I am merely trying to stop an editwar. Besides, my warning is for both IL2BA and Cholga. Not just aiming at Cholga particularly. Cholga is right for one thing though, IL2BA also has a history of incivility and disruptive editing. As a reminder to all people to comment here, their confrontation stemmed from an earlier argument on the page of Richmond, California. Chris! my talk 04:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- 1. It clearly is improper to remove the parameter in the article space since that is an issue to be addressed at Template:Infobox City. That parameter is to be left in the template on the article. 2. I'll take a look at the article talk page to see if there is consensus on these nicknames. Please leave that parameter in the article as is until the consensus issue is resolved. -- Jreferee (Talk) 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I thought you did and I find it very unfair, since I was reverting vandalism, which according to policy is not a violation of the 3RR no matter how many times you do it. He should not remove the parameter for nicknames. It did?? Which areguement is that? I don't deny that Richmond is the location of my first run in with IL2BA but s/he has had run ins with me everywhere I go, to the point that other editors have expressed it seems s/he is following me. This particular series of events is howeber unrelated to that discussion.CholgatalK! 05:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was warning both him and you. You two are engaging in an editwar. Now he can argue the same thing about you vandalize the same page. And we are going in circles. Also be careful what you called vandalism. His edit here are not vandalism in my opinion. And remember wikipedia is not a place to hold grudge. What you are doing here violates that. Chris! my talk 06:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I thought you did and I find it very unfair, since I was reverting vandalism, which according to policy is not a violation of the 3RR no matter how many times you do it. He should not remove the parameter for nicknames. It did?? Which areguement is that? I don't deny that Richmond is the location of my first run in with IL2BA but s/he has had run ins with me everywhere I go, to the point that other editors have expressed it seems s/he is following me. This particular series of events is howeber unrelated to that discussion.CholgatalK! 05:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Although not explicitly asked to mediate, I just wish to state that as a complete outsider (being British), arguments over such minutiae are completely unnecessary. If the infobox has provision for "nicknames", then so be it. However, it would be a lot better if one could verify the aforementioned information, preferably BEFORE inclusion in the article. Unfortunately, here, I don't think this argument is going to resolve itself easily, but I agree that the said information should be left until final consensus is achieved. Put it to the vote on the article's discussion page. I hope this helps to clarify the situation.Please ignore.--Bulleid Pacific 11:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Cholga has asked me to comment here, so: This is a content dispute. If, during the course of the dispute, rules have been broken, there are specific places to make such complaints. Wikipedia administrators do not determine consensus on content issues, and that seems to be the main request here. --Tango 13:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was also asked to comment. {{Infobox City}}'s nickname parameter, like all of its parameters with the exception of official name is optional. What is placed inside them is to be decided by the editors of a page. Since I am 2,084 miles from Oakland, I can not offer you any insight on whether O-Town is or is not a local nickname for Oakland. I would suggest that you first stop the revert war. Then, stick with any consensus that is reached on the nicknames at the Oakland talk page and only use the most common/well known of these nicknames (when y'all agree what they are) in the infobox itself. For Detroit, there are many nicknames and in that article only the most common are in the infobox and the local or less common nicknames were placed within the article. I'm not suggesting that that be done for Oakland, only that that has worked for the Detroit article. And for God's sake—be civil. —MJCdetroit 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Block
Request for Action
Civility is disappearing [62] 68.244.50.184 02:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The incident happened a week ago. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Shell babelfish 02:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- And he apologized for it the next day. Why are you posting it here now? Mike R 21:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Requesting Another Block or Protection
Hello,
I need another block of a vandalous user or protection of articles he is vandalizing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Van_Resistance&action=history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Van&action=history
This user was last blocked several months ago on this exact same article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:OttomanReference
After a lack of editting for some time, he resumed edit warring and doing "original research" and making up dubious citations to support his vandalism. When one checks the citations, they do not actually reflect what it claimed.
For example, he claims there was a battle of Van, yet a review of the source he provided on google books merely shows the town was evacuated and taken by the enemy. This evacuation was a result of consequence of fighting on another sector of the front, but no "battle" ever took place. I kept asking him to provide sources of his claims, be reasonable, but he has continued to vandalize the pages.
Please help.Hetoum I 03:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- This looks like a content dispute: are there enough sources for this "Battle of Van" for it to have an article? This board is not for content disputes. Calling someone you have a content dispute with a vandal is uncivil and does not help. If you think there are not enough sources for an article, you can nominate it for deletion at WP:AFD, or ask for third party input at WP:3O. Sandstein 05:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is not a content dispute, but a claim of elaborate disguising of introduction of original research and/or false information into a Wikipedia article. Talk:Battle of Van is very informative, and so is the fact that this user has been blocked three times for this, although the actual reason for the blocks was edit warring, not OR or vandalism. I agree, however, that an AFD may be useful, as it could provide a nice precedent for removing his claims from articles, although so could stern administrative action. The issue with actually carrying out the latter is the difficultly of proving the falsehood of the claims of the alleged vandal. Location of and imput from other, uninvolved users with access to the alleged sources would be very insightful. Someguy1221 06:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It seems to come under the auspices of both the Armenian and the Turkish Wikiprojects (usually a recipe for disaster), and also the Military History Wikiproject. I suggest asking on the talk page of the Military History Wikiproject for some uninvolved user input - chances are higher there than anywhere else that they will have suitable resources to prove or disprove the information. Neil ム 09:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Please Advise Me
Can I use an image with the following tag for the Back Cover of my magazine,
{{GFDL-self-with-disclaimers}}
If I am going to use the same image inside of the magazine and give due credit to the person and the source.Kaystar 06:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- You have to attribute Wikipedia with the image that you are using under GFDL. Miranda 07:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, that means if attribute wikipedia inside of the magazine, I can use the image on the Back Cover as well? Kaystar 07:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- We're not lawyers, particularly intellectual property lawyers, but in my humble opinion the license's plain language says it's OK to use GFDL materials as long as you follow the requirement to give credit. If Wikipedia is the source you should credit that, and you need to list the Authors (whoever uploaded and/or modified it) as well. It doesn't say "Can't use on the cover" or "Must have separate credits if you use it twice". If you use it, you need to credit it. If you credit it, you could use it on every page of the magazine and both covers. But you don't need to put the credits right next to or on the same page each time you use it. The license just indicates you have to credit it.
- Please do not take any of these comments as legal advice, however. Georgewilliamherbert 07:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. But I couldn't understand the statement with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts.Kaystar 07:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :-P Credit the author as well as the encyclopedia. If you have any more questions, contact OTRS. Disclaimer: Although some of us are lawyers, Wikipedia does not give legal advice. Hope this helps. Miranda 07:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- ThanksKaystar 07:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Concerns of Sockpuppetry
I just recently noticed this IP making edit summaries like this on recent changes. I notice administrator Gyrofrog has labeled it a sockpuppet. It is a bit hard to tell whether those diff links prove real connections between the IP and the person he believes is the sockmaster. The only real concrete one is this revert on Ostad Elahi (an article that the sockmaster had edited before. I can't really make much out of it yet. Anyone else care to investigate? I have only given the IP a warning about the abusive edit summaries at the moment.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 07:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I just noticed Golbez already blocked the IP.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 07:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Orange Institution
User:Domer48 [a] has made a controversial claim about the current state of the Orange Institution using, among others, a 30 year old (sic) reference by political activist Michael Farrell (The other reference- 12 years old- predates a lot a lot of history in the region). I have no love of this particular organisation but C’mon guys, this is bringing Wikipedia into disrepute [63]Aatomic1 11:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't appear that you've made any effort to discuss this on either the article talk page or the talk page of Domer48. I would think that would be a good step to take before coming to WP:ANI. --Onorem♠Dil 11:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- You obviously have not dealt with him before [a] Aatomic1 11:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, Content dispute. It is cited properly, and despite Domer48's.. colorful history (note, I'm the one who put him in that list, so if anything, I know he isn't a perfect editor, but then again, who is...).. if Aatomic1 can't find a more recent cite to disprove the claim referenced in the cite, there's no reason why it should be removed. It fits the definition. SirFozzie 23:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- You obviously have not dealt with him before [a] Aatomic1 11:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Dizzystufffolks
User:Dizzystufffolks appears to be primarily a vandalism account, particularly for the Karl Stefanovic article but also The Castle (film) and BoyTown. Has also been warned numerous times. Seeking some mediation, or a block is more appropriate. Thanks. The KZA 11:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- First edit in 8 days; revert, ignore, move on. LessHeard vanU 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Abusive language by Evlekis
Here I report you the repeated actions of abusive language of user:Evlekis on Wikipedia. These can be found on his userpage.
See the examples:
- "Pizda" - c*nt (in Slavic languages). Not used in polite language.
- "Kurac" - c*ck (penis) (in South Slavic languages, I think also in E Slavic languages). Not used in polite language.
- "Ebanje" - f*ucking (in most Slavic languages it's said "jebanje", but I think that in Macedonian and in Bulgarian they use hyperekavian form, "ebanje". Also, in other Slavic languages, "ebanje" reminds on "full word form", and mentioning that "shortened" form is the thing that's not used in polite language.
- "Paardenlul" - Literally: "horses's c*ck" (in Dutch). In the meaning of "a*shole". Also, see where Google search takes you with that keyword [64].
- "Caralho" - f*cker. "karati" in Serbian = "fucking", so sounds like "f*ckalho".
- "vluggertje" - in Dutch "quickie".
- "knullar" - in Swedish "f*cking".
- "gomno". - Sounds like "govno", in Slavic languages meaning = "shit".
- Also, he used many swearing in text:
- "Idi U Kurac" - "go to c*ck" (in South Slavic languages). Heavy curse.
- "Pushi Kurac" - "Suck c*ck". (in South Slavic languages). Reads as "puši kurac" in S Slavic languages, if you want to check the meaning.
- "vaffanculo" - in Italian. Not used in polite language.
- User:Evlekis has also uploaded pictures with text that contain abusive language. E.g. [65].
- Leccacazzi. In Italian: "leccare"= to lick, "Cazzi" in Italian means "c*cks, penises"; form not used in polite language.
- Leccami la mia figa'. In Italian: "leccare"= to lick. "Figa" in some Italian dialects means "c*nt".
- faszszopó" - "c*cksucker" (in Hungarian).
- szopd le a faszomat" - "s*ck my d*ck" (in Hungarian).
- User Evlekis also uploaded this picture, containing text with words "cunt". [66].
Here're some changes, so you can see that he, user:Evlekis, uploaded that text on his userpage [[67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74], etc.. Mostly in the section A_Fictional_Story_unrelated_to_actual_events...well...a_few....
To check, see http://www.youswear.com (or talk to admins that know those languages).
We don't have to tolerate such users.
Wikipedia has explicit policy of dealing with such persons and such behaviour. This was not just one incident, as you see this is a bunch of repeated actions/edits.
Such users should be banned from editing Wikipedia. Sincerely, Kubura 12:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I can't see a problem here; Wikipedia is uncensored, and all the offending items appear to be in his userspace, obviously meant as a joke, and not directed at anyone in particular (which would be unacceptable as a personal attack) — iridescent (talk to me!) 13:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Seems to be one of those Names changed stories. You can't really publish your views and stuff like that with real names into wikipedia; I Have met that kind of stuff before. Choosing of the words might be a bit rough, but I don't see any reason for administrative action. Suva 13:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks like you haven't read the content disclaimer yet. MER-C 13:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... Might be the basis of a new article - Non English Swear Words, Curses, and Impolite Expressions Found In The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit? LessHeard vanU 15:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- There already is a relevant article. It's called Film at 11. Digwuren 15:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
On another note...
What happened to Wikipedia is not social networking? Doesn't having that many pictures and a long story seem a bit excessive to anyone? Sasquatch t|c 19:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good question. WP:User_page#Inappropriate_content would appear to apply too. Quite how "The Kingdom of Fucking borders The State of Fucking; the borlerline counties of Fucking (West Cunt)..." helps the project, I'm not sure. Neil has raised it on the user's talk page, so perhaps he (the user) will be along soon to enlighten us. WP:NOTCENSORED exists to allow us to discuss various acts and beliefs that some find offensive, either in description or depiction, not so that we can list swear words in mock articles on our userpages. Mr Stephen 19:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
LI don't really mind the swearing, it's not directed at anyone, and if it keeps him happy, fine, whatever. All I've asked him to do is remove the piped links where he describes the European Union as "the Brussels Gay Community" and "the Brussels Retard Community", as that is offensive. Neil ム 21:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't really care about the swearing, for Neil's reason that it isn't directed at anybody. I am, however, unsure of the value of this fiction on a WIkipedia user page. I construe it as a violation of WP:NOT and WP:USER. —Crazytales (t.) 21:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
User njyoder continually makes personal attacks and uncivil comments in the course of this discussion: Talk:PayPal#Request_For_Comment:_Criticism_and_PayPalSucks.com. I've reminded him twice to read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA before continuing the discussion but his block history shows a multitude of blocks for incivility and personal attacks (yes they were awhile ago, but if you look at his contrib history he hasn't done much editing between then and now. Upon his return and much more active involvement he's returned to his previous behaviour.--Crossmr 13:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Name-calling by User:M.V.E.i., again
I would like admins to do something about User:M.V.E.i. using language like Bandera-Ass-Kisser. This is the user, who has been banned numerous times for incivility and personal attacks [75] and yet this continues again Talk:Russians in Ukraine#Remarkable tolerance, remarkably absent from other places--Hillock65 14:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to explain myself. In the same link you could see the phrase said ny the user Hillock: "because another Stalin lover is not here to offer his valuable opinion". This "another stalin lover" is a user named Kuban Kazak, and he's not a Stalinists, he stated it on his user page. Practically, the complaining user was the one who started calling people names. "Another", then who is the first one? He ment, me. Me whose grand-grand-father was a peasent killed in 1930 by the Cheka/NKVD for "anti-soviet agitation" (and that was alie invented by neighbours who hoped to get he's part of land, which was in good condition because he worked hard on it. I maybe exegirated calling him: "bandera-ass-kisser", but you could understand me to, it's like calling someone who lost someone at the holocause "Nazi". Now, after an hour, i calmed down and be shure now i wouldn't allow myself to talk like this, but at the moment it just striked me strong! The thing is that as you could see from the same link, me and another user after a long argument agreed on somthing, at least for now. And Hillock, who didn't say a word while the argument was on, when it ended, and you could see that from the link, tryed to provocate another argument. M.V.E.i. 15:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was discussing an article, not you or User:Kuban kazak, who, as you can see proudly displays a picture of Stalin on his user page. As for the argument, it ended because people are tired of your edit warring. Look how many edits you've made in the last 24 hrs[76], ever wondered about 3RR? I wouldn't bother reporting you to 3RR, my concern is name calling, not your revert warring. --Hillock65 15:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- IN THE LINK it was clearly seen you called people Stalinists. HE EXPLAINED ON HIS USER PAGE, in a section called disclamer, that he's against Stalin. The think is, that the same link you gives has all the evedence that you're the one to blame. If you "were discusting the article", why were you droping blames on a not related article? Why did you start critisizing a user for agreeng to a compromise? I agree with Alaexis down here. If your concern is name calling then don't you dare to call people Stalinist! M.V.E.i. 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please, read carefully again. I didn't call anyone stalinist. If someone proudly displays a picture one of the worst mass muderers, it should be noted, but not the way you described. --Hillock65 15:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Because another Stalin lover is not here to offer his valuable opinion", these are your words. M.V.E.i. 16:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please, read carefully again. I didn't call anyone stalinist. If someone proudly displays a picture one of the worst mass muderers, it should be noted, but not the way you described. --Hillock65 15:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- IN THE LINK it was clearly seen you called people Stalinists. HE EXPLAINED ON HIS USER PAGE, in a section called disclamer, that he's against Stalin. The think is, that the same link you gives has all the evedence that you're the one to blame. If you "were discusting the article", why were you droping blames on a not related article? Why did you start critisizing a user for agreeng to a compromise? I agree with Alaexis down here. If your concern is name calling then don't you dare to call people Stalinist! M.V.E.i. 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was discussing an article, not you or User:Kuban kazak, who, as you can see proudly displays a picture of Stalin on his user page. As for the argument, it ended because people are tired of your edit warring. Look how many edits you've made in the last 24 hrs[76], ever wondered about 3RR? I wouldn't bother reporting you to 3RR, my concern is name calling, not your revert warring. --Hillock65 15:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- And by the way! I was the one who created the article, and belive me, Kuban Kazak contributed to it more then me, and more then anybody. Probablly more then all the other users editing the article together taken. After what he've done for the article, i really belive his opinion i "valuable". M.V.E.i. 16:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hillock, what was the purpose of that edit (completely unrelated to the topic of the talkpage's article)? If one takes into account your subsequent report here it starts to look not very nice... Alæxis¿question? 15:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It is related, because tolerance of that user's behaviour and revert warring in this article is remarkable. No one wanted to do anything. --Hillock65 15:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is labeling people "Stalinist" is tolerance? There was a "war", and it was settled. I wanted picture A in one section to stay, and B in other to be removed. Another user wanted picture A to be removed, and B to stay. A compromise? Both of them stay for now. And yet, you couldn't stand the fact that an agreement was reached, so you started provocating the other user, and that didn't work because he's just to smart for that. It all could be found in the link that you gave, and in the link Alaexis gave. M.V.E.i. 15:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- IRT Alaexis: Hillock is a well-known disruptor, so such kind of edits with numerous PA's are absolutely not surprising. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong. However, Grafikm_fr and Kuban kazak have been identified as belonging to same cabal, which is occasionally orbited by Alaexis. Digwuren 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That was the least of my intentions to have one cabal go against the other. The only issue here is incivility, that is all. Nothing else. --Hillock65 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah right, thats why you labled people Stalinist. After a settelment was reached, you suddenly care and try to start the war again? Yeah nice. Noble Peace Price. M.V.E.i. 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, when considering the Big Picture, it's clear that the reason such tactics are (selectively) tolerated on Russians in Ukraine is that the above non-mentioned Cartel has been far too successful in exercising WP:OWN in regards to that article (and a host of others), scaring away any uninvolved administrators. The uncivility is not the problem; it's a symptom of the problem. The problem is much, much deeper.
- If random administrators would patrol that "forgotten" corner of Wikipedia more often, civility wouldn't become a problem. But who's going to implement Wikipedia jury duty? Digwuren 16:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not that I care for cartel accusations, but here are the links to substantiate Digwuren's point [77]--Hillock65 16:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hillock your a specialists in knocking yourself out with youre own llinks. Theres nothing wrong beetwen a group of editors being in good relationship. But you really made some nonsense edits. Like the time that you inserted information about Ukrainians to the Russians in Ukraine article and we tryed to explaine you that the article is about Russians and not about Ukrainians. M.V.E.i. 16:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not that I care for cartel accusations, but here are the links to substantiate Digwuren's point [77]--Hillock65 16:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am just thrilled that some editors are in such good relationship! Good for them. Apparently, they were in even "better relationship" when ganged up against another Ukrainian editor, who only tried to introduce an infobox in Kievan Rus'[78]. Compare that to you removing whole chunks of text against the concensus of the editors in Russians in Ukraine[79]. In the first instance "the editors in good relationship" wouldn't tolerate any changes, and in your case you get away with removing text and continuous revert warring. My point was precisely to wonder why "the editors in good relationship" were applying such an outrageous double standard in relation to you. That is all. --Hillock65 16:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I know that Alex Bakharev is the most honest administrator there is, and once he already protected the article till the problems were resolved. But i also want to say, before Kuban Kazak was gone everything was working just fine. He really wanted this article to become good, thats why he alwaays gave referencess, he stayed nutral, he really did a good job. I personaly belive that once he's baclk everything returns to normal. M.V.E.i. 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Grafikm is correct. Since the article Russians in Ukraine was created it was like these: Me, Kuban Kazak, and a few other adding information, upgrading the article. Hillock? Deleted it. I remember how there was a war beetwen Kuban Kazak and Hillock, and though it was clear it was Hillock's fault i went to both of them and tryed to stop it, without saying anyone of them is he wrong or is he right. I was really patient with him so far, but now he broke the line! He has no right to lable people Stalinists. M.V.E.i. 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That was the least of my intentions to have one cabal go against the other. The only issue here is incivility, that is all. Nothing else. --Hillock65 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong. However, Grafikm_fr and Kuban kazak have been identified as belonging to same cabal, which is occasionally orbited by Alaexis. Digwuren 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Unilateral move
Gryffindor deleted a page to make way for an unilateral move (Passirio -> Passer river). It was reverted, and so he protected the page ([80]).--Supparluca 17:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- He didn't protect the page he moved, he just made another revert move. He did, however, use his admin bit to make his first move over a page with an existing history. But then, that history consisted only of a dummy edit by yourself, Supparluca, and it might easily be suspected that you had actually made that dummy edit in order to "scorch the earth" and prevent potential later page moves (a dirty technique; I've repeatedly gone on record warning people I'd block them if I found them using it intentionally.) In any case, Gryffindor's move warring is disappointing. He is heavily involved as a party in a long-standing dispute over geographical names in South Tyrol, and I warned him once before that he shouldn't use his admin tools in it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Anyway, the page is blocked now.--Supparluca 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ooops, I hadn't seen this. It turns out Gryffindor himself was using the dirty trick of redirect-scorching ([81], [82]), rather than officially "protecting" using his admin tools. I'm not sure which is worse, but it's certainly very very uncool either way. I'm giving him a stern warning, and will revert to the status quo ante (whichever that was, I don't remember). Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. He did the same thing on Isarco river, I don't know if you want to delete that page to unblock it.--Supparluca 22:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. But in that case the Eisack version was in fact the status quo ante, and confirmed by an earlier RM, before Rex Germanus started the unilateral moves and triggered the move war earlier this month, so I guess in this case I'd prefer leaving it where it is now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. He did the same thing on Isarco river, I don't know if you want to delete that page to unblock it.--Supparluca 22:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ooops, I hadn't seen this. It turns out Gryffindor himself was using the dirty trick of redirect-scorching ([81], [82]), rather than officially "protecting" using his admin tools. I'm not sure which is worse, but it's certainly very very uncool either way. I'm giving him a stern warning, and will revert to the status quo ante (whichever that was, I don't remember). Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Anyway, the page is blocked now.--Supparluca 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Soapboxing on user page
User:Jim62sch has a banner on his user page that may be considered to be in violation of what userspace is not and no soapboxing guidelines. This version can be seen here [83]. Earlier today, admin User:lucasbfr reverted it, quoting guidelines. It was reverted, so I restored lucas' version. It was then reverted by another editor, who claimed the removal to be "vandalism" [84], and then by another, whose edit summary was even more incivil [85] and who even left a warning note on my talkpage. Comments welcome; if enforcing Wikipedia guidelines can be interpreted as vandalism, what chance do we stand? ELIMINATORJR 19:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. Enforcing policy shouldn't be controversial, especially in the case of obvious violations of policy. Vassyana 19:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The vandalism template was inappropriate and inflammatory. That said, the banner is question appears to be within the limits we allow to users in good standing. The userspace rules is to prevent a page that is a long rant or such, not to prevent productive users having a few opinionated remarks on their user page. JoshuaZ 19:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I tend to agree in this case although there has to be a line somewhere between permitted commentary and polemics. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I happen to think Wikipedia is not the place for such campaigning. Expressing one's views or biases plainly is one thing, openly soapboxing is another entirely. Vassyana 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. The question should surely be "could this be described as inflammatory" and I am sure that for some people, this one could be. (Note that the current version has been edited to remove the polemic statement). ELIMINATORJR 19:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've certainly seen worse, but this is an inappropriate use of user space. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Let him have a free homepage elsewhere. Friday (talk) 19:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Again this isn't a large homepage devoted to a topic, it is a section of a userpage which has a variety of other items on it. The drive to remove it seems to be causing far more disruption than the banner did. JoshuaZ 19:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- More censorship. Great. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with it; it seems well within the level of expression permitted in userspace. Similar issues have come up elsewhere recently (for example, a now-banned troll took it upon himself to edit User:El_C's userpage using the same rationale). Nearly anything "could be described as inflammatory" to someone, somewhere; if that's our standard, then there will be an awful lot of userpage blanking. I don't like the precedent we're setting here. Using a userpage to push a fringe or inherently offensive (e.g. racist) agenda is one thing. Using it to express a mainstream political belief should probably fall under the "wide latitude" that WP:USER generally allows people in their userspace. More importantly, I think the harm done by unilaterally policing established user's userspace for this sort of not-especially-offensive commentary far outweighs any benefit to the encyclopedia. MastCell Talk 19:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with the banner. It isn't soapboxing to firmly (yet briefly) assert an opinion, and user pages are a fine place for that. Really, what's it hurting? – Quadell (talk) (random) 19:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Now you're being nice to Jim (see below)? But I agree. It seems we have a few individuals more interested in censoring than in contributing to the project. This is hurting no one, and we have articles that have NPOV problems, factual errors, and who knows what else. Seems like this is a great use of bandwidth. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Strange as it may seem, I'm judging the case based on its merits, not based on the people involved. And on the merits, the banner is a non-issue, in my opinion. I'd say the same if it was Videus Omnia with a "Support President Bush or you're a fop with a speech impediment" banner. – Quadell (talk) (random) 01:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It appears Dave Souza deleted the statement about "
missionaccomplished" becoming "Nothing accomplished" as it was here. Frankly I didn't see a problem with it one way or the other. But as it presently exists, e.g., here, I see even less of a problem. It's his opinion and his user talk page. It's not an ad hominem against a user, not even an ad hom against anyone, but rather is a personal statement directed at a situation presently occurring in the world, and in disagreement with the 2003 assessment made by GW Bush. Obviously others disagree with what the statement implies. It's his opinion, his talk page and I think he's entitled to make the statement of fact and also to display his opinion of that very unfortunate situation on his talk page. At least, that's my opinion... Kenosis 19:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It appears Dave Souza deleted the statement about "
Is it the war related banner? I don't have any problem with it either.. (plus he erased it) what if we don't like the crab you have on your user pages.. should we erase it? He is not insulting anyone.. is very informative.. Been there done that.. seen that!--F3rn4nd0 (Roger - Out) 19:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- As an interim compromise to end an edit war I commented out the "
MissionNothing accomplished" heading to the banner, but in my opinion it's well within being a reasonable statement of personal opinion, is at most arguably "polemic" and should stay. The removal of the banner without prior discussion was incivil and a good way of inflaming an unnecessary argument. Going through user pages and deleting statements of user opinion on the grounds that they might upset some unduly sensitive people who look away when the news comes on is a sheer waste of time and goodwill. My opinion is that the banner should be restored forthwith. .. dave souza, talk 20:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC) minor correction 20:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please, someone explain why we spend so much time censoring each other. If it was out and out racism, a commercial statement, or something equally heinous, delete it away. Get rid of it. Hell, I'll stand right there helping out. But a political statement? I've read WP:SOAP, despite the you-can't-fucking-read and uncivil commentary left on my talk page, I don't think this even slightly qualifies as soapboxing. Probably offended some Republicans maybe. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- We seem to need to have these conversations every once in a while to reinforce this sort of thing. I do not believe users should be allowed to be overly provocative or deliberately offensive in their user space, but the standard should be what a reasonable person would be offended by, not what an easily offended person might be offended by. Thatcher131 20:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for inviting me to the party. Of course, the person who decided to remove it for specious reasons, could have at least asked me about it prior to arbitraily removing it (shall I go to his page and see if anything "offends" me, and if it does, remove it? -- nah, too childish). If it was truly a vio (which it wasn't), I would have removed it (hell, I wouldn't have put it there in the first place). It's certainly becoming clear to me why a lot of good editors have left Wikipedia, or else significantly reduced the time they spend on the project. Such behaviour as removing what is really a brief commentary from a user page is extraordinarily puertile if not infantile, especially given that there wasn't even an attempt to discuss the issue. I do not suffer fools gladly, and I am begining to sense many fools on Wikipedia. (OK, tag this for incivility, I really don't care, I come from a long line of folks who find telling it as it is preferable to blowing smoke up someones ass, or acting contrite when no contrition is merited)
- Quadell, Dave, Kenosis, OM, MastCell and Josh, I thank you for your comments and your support, and I certainly second Dave's opinion on restoring said banner forthwith. •Jim62sch• 20:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh come on. It's an expression of opinion about a current event, in fact an opinion that is shared by a large fraction of the public worldwide and even in the U.S. It's not like he said "death to the [Zionist|Mohammedan|American|Luxembourgish] scum" or something like that. Conservatives can have quotes from Ayn Rand, User:El_C can have a pic of his hero, and so on. As for benefit to the encyclopedia I find these noninflammatory disclosures of viewpoint help to give some personality to anonymous editors; they're useful as expressions of where an editor is coming from. Raymond Arritt 23:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't find the statement on Jim's page offensive (and I'm probably one of the users who would theoretically be offended by it, according to those who would like to remove it). The fight over removal/retention is more disruptive than the statement, IMHO. Videmus Omnia Talk 23:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I still don't think the issue is offensiveness. Unarguable polemical statements like "Convicted murderers should face justice!" if written in a large font at the top of the page are inappropriate as well. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Are sermons by Sun Myung Moon appropriate? ...... dave souza, talk 00:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I still don't think the issue is offensiveness. Unarguable polemical statements like "Convicted murderers should face justice!" if written in a large font at the top of the page are inappropriate as well. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- this does not strike me as likely to give offense to anyone reasonable--the existence of different views on the matter is well understood. It's minor. Removing it without discussion seems WP:POINT and, frankly, deliberately aggressive. DGG (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a polemical statement, but I'm personally not offended by it, but I question the good faith of anyone who says we need more human beings dead, despite wherever their from. Maybe I was reading that the wrong way, I'm not sure. At first glance it appeared the read that more Americans should die, to compensate for the large number of Iraqi's dead, but on a second glance it might mean that too many people have died. Either way, it's a polemical statement, nothing worth the edit war. — Moe ε 01:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Since there appears to be some confusion, let me explain: the banner is a statement on the futility and sadness of war, especially one of choice, and speaks to the fact that 4 years and almost 4 months after the war was officially declared over, there are still brave men and women and innocent civilians being killed. These are sacrifices that need to be remembered, not swept under a rug. Yes, I disagree with the war (hence VO's point that he could be one of the people who could theoretically be offended) but I do support the soldiers, sailors, airmen, etc., who are just doing their duty and serving their country (hence the reason (I guess) that VO isn't offended). Everytime I hear of another death I am both angered and saddened.
- Now, on my talk page I mentioned the irony of the use of the word polemical given its etymology. For those of you who don't know, polemical derives from the Greek πόλεμος (polemos), war. •Jim62sch• 09:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hell, a lot of user boxes are polemical (not that I really want to raise that damned issue from the dead). Had I written a long rant on my page, I could see folks getting upset. That I was able, in a few words, to (for the most part) get my point across should be no biggie, and removing it without discussion was far more uncivil than anything I've ever written (yes, I do have my moments). This whole process has been silly and could have been avoided via discussion. •Jim62sch• 10:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
He could just as easily have put a little userbox that says "this user opposes the war in Iraq" and then had a separate banner listing the very same facts of the war dead. Someone has too much time on their hands, or is a Bush die-hard, to be fretting over this. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. I've run into some drama, and I'm looking for outside opinions and possibly assistance from other administrators. I've been an admin since 2004, and I'm frequently involved in the contentious area of image deletion debates. (I try to keep a cool head, but I'm not perfect.) I ran into what appeared to me to be incivility from User:Jim62sch, some of which was directed towards me. I left a note on his userpage,[86] asking him to be civil and refrain from personal attacks. I was under the false impression that Jim62sch was a new user -- he's actually been around for years -- and I left him the {{uw-npa2}} template. This was a mistake (don't template the regulars and all that), and he wasn't happy with the note, saying it "borders on admin abuse". User:Bishonen and User:KillerChihuahua (both administrators) asked me about this on my talk page, asking what I had seen as incivility on Jim62sch's part and looking for further clarification. I've answered them to the best of my ability, but there still seems to be quite a bit of bad blood stirred up. The unfolding saga is primarily at user talk:Quadell#NPA template. I'd like to invite comments on my behavior, as well as that of other administrators, to see what could have been done better, and what should be done from here. Thanks, – Quadell (talk) (random) 19:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The only thing I really identify as tipping toward a personal attack may be this comment he made here. The only error in judgment I see on your part was placing the Npa template (but I do understand it can be accidental). Probably wasn't the best way to help the situation. I don't see much evidence of admin abuse or oversensitivity either but it would have been more constructive to leave a polite response to the "harsh" criticism rather than slapping an Npa. I believe you haven't done anything drastically incorrect though.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 19:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Perhaps you should also consider that although several people asked, Quadell declined to explain what he was talking about until today. No one knew what he was objecting to. When asked, he said "no one is going to dig up evidence" among other dismissive comments. I consider that at least as problematical as the template, and almost certainly more so. If I tell someone they've made a personal attack and they, and multiple others, ask "where? diff?" I promptly supply a diff and explanation. I don't understand not doing so. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that Quadell's is a legitimate concern. Some people want diffs to support any statement, and others think that a collection of diffs qualifies as "wikistalking" or "collecting evidence", and the malign those who collect such diffs. It is kind of a lose-lose situation. --Iamunknown 20:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Except that Jim asked for a diff. Quadell wouldn't give him one. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. Did I say Quadell was right or wrong in this instance? No. I mentioned that his is a legitimate concern, identified a (imo) common contradiction, and noted that it creates a "lose-lose situation". You don't have to convince me, because I am commenting neither in favour or against anything... --Iamunknown 20:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, point taken, my error. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what further action is required at this point on Quadell's part. Diffs, links, and explanations have all been provided. As I said on Quadell's talk page, it's turned into shrubbery-demanding at this point to keep pushing the issue. Videmus Omnia Talk 21:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Diffs, links, and explanations have all been provided." -- not by Quadell. Are we reading the same page? •Jim62sch• 21:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what further action is required at this point on Quadell's part. Diffs, links, and explanations have all been provided. As I said on Quadell's talk page, it's turned into shrubbery-demanding at this point to keep pushing the issue. Videmus Omnia Talk 21:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, point taken, my error. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Jim makes this edit, invoking Godwin's Law besides other niceties, and has the cheek of asking in the same breath where he was uncivil? And Quadell responds with this perfect sample of civility and self-restraint. I couldn't have blamed him if he had just dropped the conversation altogether at that point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, he asked where he'd made a personal attack meriting a template with a block warning. There is a difference. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, not Godwin's Law if we really want to get technical, and quite a propos and effective given that a mention of Pinochet's or Stalin's or Mao's or Pol Pots secret courts would not have meant diddly. Additionally, had you carefully read the whole post, rather than quotemining for one phrase, you'd have noticed that I was being sarcastic throughout, given my frustration as Quadell's inexplicable refusal to supply a diff when asked to do so by 4 editors (3 of them admins). Have we now banned sarcasm as well? •Jim62sch• 21:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, he asked where he'd made a personal attack meriting a template with a block warning. There is a difference. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. Did I say Quadell was right or wrong in this instance? No. I mentioned that his is a legitimate concern, identified a (imo) common contradiction, and noted that it creates a "lose-lose situation". You don't have to convince me, because I am commenting neither in favour or against anything... --Iamunknown 20:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Except that Jim asked for a diff. Quadell wouldn't give him one. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that Quadell's is a legitimate concern. Some people want diffs to support any statement, and others think that a collection of diffs qualifies as "wikistalking" or "collecting evidence", and the malign those who collect such diffs. It is kind of a lose-lose situation. --Iamunknown 20:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds that participation in "image deletion debates" has been increasingly interpreted as a free pass for intemperance, peremptory tone, and highly defiant replies to critical remarks? --Ghirla-трёп- 20:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Am I the only one who finds that those trying to impose increasingly onerous restrictions on the use of "fair use" images can be rather insensitive when having a go at particularly contentious articles, and play games of putting book cover images up for deletion when they're already being legitimately used to illustrate articles solely about the books in question? .. dave souza, talk 21:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't want to press the issue, but I want to make it clear that Quadell's record is not spotless. I don't have any problems with the acitivities of most "image patrollers", but Quadell's deletions often strike me as injudicious. One recent example is the speedy deletion of the chart from Spartocids, which was uploaded by one of the few authorities in the field with the notion that it was self-made. The uploader was too inexperienced to add a tag, although it was clear from the note that the chart was self-made. Quadell deleted it without a second thought, although it contains material which is hard to come by. It is fortunate that the uploader returned to Wikipedia to readd the image.[87] --Ghirla-трёп- 07:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Am I the only one who finds that those trying to impose increasingly onerous restrictions on the use of "fair use" images can be rather insensitive when having a go at particularly contentious articles, and play games of putting book cover images up for deletion when they're already being legitimately used to illustrate articles solely about the books in question? .. dave souza, talk 21:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have your talk page on my watchlist (as you may know), Quadell, so I noticed the conversation, read through it, and came here to comment. I agree that quite a lively (and somewhat dramatic) discussion is ongoing on your talk page! I have been relatively absent from IfD debates recently, so I examined the diffs, of which I was previously unaware.
- They are not the worst seen, nor are they all-out personal attacks, but they are uncivil. By uncivil, I mean that they [Jim's comments] seem to me to be, "...personally targeted behaviour that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress" (WP:CIV). I understand that "personally targeted" is debatable with regards to some of the diffs, but the comments certainly are creating an atmosphere of greater conflict and quite possibly stress (on your part, I assume ;-)), and they do seem to be a pattern.
- As I said, reading the discussion on your talk page, it seems quite a bit of drama has been created. Sometimes that happens. Hopefully, however, something good can come out of it. One good thing - you understand that leaving a template warning was probably not the best thing to do in the case. One good thing I hope for - Jim realizing a pattern of what some identify as uncivil commentary, and abating it. Let's make achieve something constructive out of this situation. :) --Iamunknown 20:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- And that is a statement I can agree with wholeheartedly. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- First, this [88] comment was 5 days before Quadell posted a notice on my page, and Quadell was quite active in that time. Aside from it not being uncivil (a bit sternly worded perhaps, but hardly uncivil), I don't buy it as being the cause given the time lapse. •Jim62sch• 20:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, it looks like he took a Wikibreak completely on 25-26 Aug and wasn't particularly active on the 24th or 27th. If I received a post like that on my talk page, I would probably wait to cool down before replying also. Videmus Omnia Talk 20:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- (EC, topposting Jim) I'm making no judgement, but I note that Jim made that post at 21:33, 23 August. Quadell replied to it 21:43, 23 August 2007. Then he placed an NPA template on Jim's talk page at 13:02, 28 August. It does seem to appear that Quadell was referring to something else, since he'd already replied to the post Jim made on his page. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, it looks like he took a Wikibreak completely on 25-26 Aug and wasn't particularly active on the 24th or 27th. If I received a post like that on my talk page, I would probably wait to cool down before replying also. Videmus Omnia Talk 20:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- First, this [88] comment was 5 days before Quadell posted a notice on my page, and Quadell was quite active in that time. Aside from it not being uncivil (a bit sternly worded perhaps, but hardly uncivil), I don't buy it as being the cause given the time lapse. •Jim62sch• 20:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- And that would be your choice. However, I imagine you would have talked about it, rather than place an unmerited template on my page.
- Also, there seems to be a bit of a disagreement as to what constitutes incivility. Had I said, "What the fuck are you doing you pretensious little dickhead", you'd have a point. But I didn't, and I don't feel that you do. Look, Wiki might be a nice place to escape to, but it ain't Nirvana, ain't Utopia, ain't Shangri-La or even Care Bear Land. If yoiu're seeking some meek, mild mannered, "nice" society, I wish you well on your search, but I doubt it will be fruitful.
Oh, by the way Videmus omnia is a truly creepy phrase with some nasty undertones. Perfect for a Strat Recon Group, but not quite appropriate to Nirvana.•Jim62sch• 21:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)- Good grief Jim, that's uncivil at best and certainly aggrevating the situation. You might want to consider copyediting that and/or striking it. (What *does* Videmus omnia mean?) KillerChihuahua?!? 21:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "We see all"? I am missing the creepiness. I don't see how insulting Videmus omnia's uname is anything but harmful. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "We See Everything" -- think of the Police song, "Every Breath You Take". •Jim62sch• 21:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh for crying out loud, that's just reaching. I still think you're being rude and should strike that. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "We See Everything" -- think of the Police song, "Every Breath You Take". •Jim62sch• 21:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think at this point everyone walking away might be the best idea. Neil ム 21:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- What would you like me to strike? My explanation that VO would have discussed it? My explanation of incivility? What Wiki is not? My wishes for VO to find a peaceful society? My patience with this project is wearing very thin: it is only by exchanging our thoughts, beliefs, ideas, etc., openly and honestly that we can progress: shutting up and pretending nothing happened is not conducive to same. •Jim62sch• 21:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The bit about his uname being "creepy" and Neil is right, this is going nowhere fast. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Second that, was just thinking of Big Brother (Orwell rather than the fortunately near defunct Channel 4 show), but any suggestion of insult should be graciously withdrawn. .. dave souza, talk 21:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The bit about his uname being "creepy" and Neil is right, this is going nowhere fast. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- What would you like me to strike? My explanation that VO would have discussed it? My explanation of incivility? What Wiki is not? My wishes for VO to find a peaceful society? My patience with this project is wearing very thin: it is only by exchanging our thoughts, beliefs, ideas, etc., openly and honestly that we can progress: shutting up and pretending nothing happened is not conducive to same. •Jim62sch• 21:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Neil. No need to drag this through the mud further. Why is there still discussion about providing diff links, the civility levels of talk page comments, and creepiness when this matter is basically closed. Whats done is done, time to move on.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ghirla above. Some users invoke "we are doing an image patrol and enforce and 'unpopular' policy" as an excuse to justify the blatantly poor conduct. This is not an image policy issue. This is the issue of the conduct of the image patrollers.
It looks like an experienced administrator Quadell learned too little from the recent Abu badali drama. His being right or wrong on the image issues aside, insensitivity and stubbornness of some of our self-appointed image patrollers is responsible for much of the grief and bad blood their actions spill. This also makes these image patrollers by far less effective in getting the users cooperate with the legitimate concerns about free content policy and the need to find the right balance between WP's informativeness and its freedom.
Here Quadell treats experienced users in good standing (who may admittedly be mistaken about the image policies) with threatening patronizing templates as if he does not know that WP:DTTR is an essay that is approved by the widest consensus (time to promote it to a guideline IMO), then he arrogantly and repeatedly brushes off some very justifiable and reasonable questions where the offended party and several other admins ask him for diffs of an alleged PA that warranted a block threat and then, after failing to convince those who saw him wrong, coming here trying to get the opinions he wants to hear after hearing the exact opposite from several other users.
Highly inappropriate, arrogant and divisive admin conduct. --Irpen 22:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is certainly not civil. A mere NPA template in response shows levelheadedness and restraint. Yeah, I know, WP:DTTR, but if the shoe fits . . . -- But|seriously|folks 23:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- But it is not merely a simple case of DTTR. Read Irpen's post. There is a history here. Then look at how several people tried hard to get Quadell to explain what his grievance was, with him brushing off all questions and concerns. And it goes on. I appreciate what PPG said, and it certainly looked like this thread might turn into a train wreck, but that's the only reason I agreed with Neil - nothing has been settled. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that (by his responses on his talk page) Quadell has learned that his course of action was not the best. In what other way would you prefer this issue be resolved? --Iamunknown 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Not the best" is a big understatement. That's for one. Two: were is Quadell indicating that he learned anything at all? I would as much happy to see that as anyone would. --Irpen 01:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that (by his responses on his talk page) Quadell has learned that his course of action was not the best. In what other way would you prefer this issue be resolved? --Iamunknown 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- There was a time lag of five days between "this" a "mere" NPA template in response. It shows no "levelheadedness and restraint". It is a provocation that was bound to escalate the issue that has already de-escalated. Quadell was asked what particular entry he was referring to? A fide-days-ago one? Are more recent one? And in what way that kind of "restraint"-response was going to help? --Irpen 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- As has been asked numerous times, what further administrator action is required here? Videmus Omnia Talk 02:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It does not seem that Quadell started this thread with the request of the administrative intervention. He started it to ask for a feedback and advise.
Where is the request for an administrative action in the initial post? As for the advise, my suggestion is that Quadell could use some mainspace content writing that really helps administrators to get closer to the real Wikipedia concerns. I did not spend much time on analyzing, but from the first glance, I find just one content related edit Quadell made in the whole month: addition of 3 short sentences to the Josh Woodward article. While racking up an impressive 4k+ number of edits, just one content one seems somewhat too few and this idea may point towards the solution that may help. --Irpen 03:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Heh. I suggest you look at Quadell's edit count. And that doesn't count the articles that Polbot has created. Videmus Omnia Talk 03:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Very impressive indeed. And an excellent bot as well especially since there is a not so rare opinion that while "anyone can write and article, only few can program."
Note, though, that I did not talk about general editcontitis. Rvv is a count. Removal of an image is a count. Writing a page of brilliant prose is also a count. I meant not counts but maintaining content writing a balanced part of the wikipedia activity in order to "remain in touch". --Irpen 03:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- A point well taken. Perhaps article authors should also spend more time on image patrolling, spam removal, or vandalism reversion to "remain in touch" with other necessary functions of the encyclopedia. Videmus Omnia Talk 03:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- To some degree yes. And most already do. However, lack of content involvement by some, so to speak "professional admins" (there are some even without real admin buttons), if addressed, would alleviate much of the WP problems of inter-user relations. At one time I even proposed having mandatory admin-sabbatical periods where admins are barred from using buttons. But that would be a separate subject, perhaps for the new essay that Geogre may write some day. --Irpen 04:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Totally agreed. Can we please close this issue and archive this thread now? Videmus Omnia Talk 04:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Videmus Omnia, Quadell started this thread to ask for feedback. He's gotten feedback from Persian Poet Gal, Irpen, Iamunknown, and a not too specific (although certainly helpful) comment from Ghirla. Most of this thread is you protesting this thread and responses to that. You're derailing the thread. You state several times you don't see what Admin action is required, then say its been asked numerous times - well yes, by you. The answer is: there never was any action required other than posting feedback asked for. Its not a request for admin action, its a request for feedback. You keep saying its time to close. I don't know if Quadell will get any more feedback on this or not; but three is a small number of people from whom to get feedback when you ask. Leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't read it any more. KillerChihuahua?!? 07:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Totally agreed. Can we please close this issue and archive this thread now? Videmus Omnia Talk 04:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- To some degree yes. And most already do. However, lack of content involvement by some, so to speak "professional admins" (there are some even without real admin buttons), if addressed, would alleviate much of the WP problems of inter-user relations. At one time I even proposed having mandatory admin-sabbatical periods where admins are barred from using buttons. But that would be a separate subject, perhaps for the new essay that Geogre may write some day. --Irpen 04:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Meh. Just everybody stop posting. Me included ;-) --Iamunknown 04:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Reading KC's post above, I realize I may not have been clear. Once everybody stops posting, then the discussion is over. I'd prefer it not be archived with a purple background or a "resolved" tag on top, but that's just me ;-) --Iamunknown 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
problematic user; constant violation of NPOV
MoritzB (talk · contribs) has a long history of blatant POV-pushing and racist motivations. Please refer to his user talk page to get a good picture of how problematic he truly is, as is noted by so many other editors.[89] The latest offense comes from from the article on Dysgenics where he totally blanks out criticism pertaining to the alleged racist views of a particular researcher.[90]. The person edits almost entirely on race-based articles and virtually every edit is in support of a view that supports racism, where he definitely tries to push and give undue weight. Here he initiates an edit where, leading to a page block because he insisted on imposing the racist views of a Michael Levin into an article about "Afrocentrism" when the views were in no way relevant a it was not a critique of afrocentrism, not to mention that it is a fringe theory and discredited view.[91] He even defends this racist view and openly states his agreement with it, while literally fibbing and presenting the views as "mainstream", which is ridiculous.[92] On the article Race and Intelligence, the user again initiates an edit war which lead to a page block where he again, gives a fringe view from a noted racialist scientist undue weight[93], and to avoid 3rr, he was suspected as further reinforcing his view by using sock/meat puppets, which was even noted by the admin.[94]. Here, he is actually defending a blocked editor who was recently blocked for making egregious racist comments, and even justifies these comments.[95] I filed a case a while back in concern to wikistalking and pestering with tis type of racialist behavior, and personal attacks with racist overtones.[96], but I retracted it in hopes that he'd improve. As another example of what I consider undeniable pov-pushing on wikipedia, on the same page he pushes a fringe view from 1939 from another racialist scientist who is widely discredited [97], and another fringe theory which has been widely discredit by mainstream research and is on par with Alien visitation.[98]. As a part of wikistalk case a while back, he followed me to this article, merely to revert anything that I did and impose some new picture in the article with the person it was about being represented as a European-looking individual, when before hand he was represented on the page as African.[99]. He had no stake in this other than to promote his racial views imo since all of his edits were racially motivated. Here, he literally harasses User:Ramdrake merely because Ramdrake filed a case on him for sock/meat puppet.(his case), the cases he filed against Ramdrake in response (even though it was confirmed, it was out of spite and the admins made nothing of it really)[100][101] [102].
That is wiki bullying and trying to impose desired results, sneakily using every tool at his disposal to scrutinize an editor who was merely protecting against his constant and relentless pov violations. Most of what he tries to submit is very culturally sensitive stuff and offensive to many people, and I hardly ever see that type of info displayed in such a manner in any mainstream encyclopedias, so it is clear that what he's doing is in direct violation of wiki policy. I'm not sure what I'd like done, but by all means, one way or another, this needs to stop permanently, and this goes to all users who commit similar crimes.Taharqa 19:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- While the views aren't as blatantly racist as those of another recently indef-blocked editor (mostly because they are inserted using and espousing outdated but published views), there has been a very visible record of tendentious editing and POV/edit-warring which has proven disruptive on a number of articles (I can name: Race and intelligence, St. Maurice, White people, European people, Afrocentrism, Race, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few still). This kind of behavior should deserve admin scrutiny, if it hasn't already attracted it.--Ramdrake 20:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Note that MoritzB has decided to switch his focus. Bye-bye edit wars on race-related articles but hello edit wars on homosexuality and pedophilia related articles. Technically, no 3RR or gross incivility and I don't think blocking him would do much good. Still, he's creating unnecessary tension and probably wasting a lot of time for the group of patient editors who are trying to explain WP:FRINGE to him. On the long term though, we can't have him start edit wars all over the place. It was on Michael Jackson a few weeks ago, on the race-related articles three days ago and now this. His defense after a recent block for edit warring was "I have been very careful not to violate the 3RR". Pascal.Tesson 03:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- MoritzB is also canvassing regarding that issue [103] [104] [105]. I believe a block would be appropriate. Pascal.Tesson 03:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As would I. Moritz has not made editing on race-related articles any easier - quite the opposite. But branching out into tendentious editing on pedophilia-related articles pretty much proves he's trolling us. Edit warring, incivility, canvassing - definitely needs a block. Picaroon (t) 03:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that a community block should be considered in this case. This user's POV pushing has quickly become a major disruption to numerous articles. --Strothra 04:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As would I. Moritz has not made editing on race-related articles any easier - quite the opposite. But branching out into tendentious editing on pedophilia-related articles pretty much proves he's trolling us. Edit warring, incivility, canvassing - definitely needs a block. Picaroon (t) 03:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- MoritzB is also canvassing regarding that issue [103] [104] [105]. I believe a block would be appropriate. Pascal.Tesson 03:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Note that MoritzB has decided to switch his focus. Bye-bye edit wars on race-related articles but hello edit wars on homosexuality and pedophilia related articles. Technically, no 3RR or gross incivility and I don't think blocking him would do much good. Still, he's creating unnecessary tension and probably wasting a lot of time for the group of patient editors who are trying to explain WP:FRINGE to him. On the long term though, we can't have him start edit wars all over the place. It was on Michael Jackson a few weeks ago, on the race-related articles three days ago and now this. His defense after a recent block for edit warring was "I have been very careful not to violate the 3RR". Pascal.Tesson 03:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment. These criticisms are totally without merit. This attempt to ostracize an editor with unpopular political views is against everything a free encyclopedia should stand for. The recent article about dysgenics is a good example. I corrected a factual error and made a post to the talk page about it. [106] However, Taharqa and her friend reverted my edit without any good reason and now the article is again in a logical contradiction with the reference. [107] In other cases Taharqa simply misrepresents my opinions.MoritzB 04:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: "Totally without merit"? I think not. It is totally disruptive. This type of editing and talk page discussions is a pain by attempting to illustate a point by constant cherry picking and pushing certain POVs, WP:SYN, and a very obvious bigotry slant. This is not stormfront. Since his "buddy" editors, that were in his camp have been blocked, he's moved on to other controversial articles doing the same thing. This is very disruptive to Wikipedia, as Wikipedia is not a soap box as this editor seems to do often. It is very frustrating and time consuming dealing with this behavior. - Jeeny Talk 04:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Since it's pretty clear that your contributions are motivated by these unpopular political views, we do have a problem. Wikipedia is not a battleground, nor is it a soapbox: you just can't go around firing up every talk page you can find. Pascal.Tesson 04:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not really. I am a conservative but it is obvious that even many Communists would endorse the edits I made. Friedrich Engels shared my views of homosexuality, Andrzej Wiercinski and other Polish and Soviet physical anthropologists agreed with my views of race which is perfectly mainstream. Even many left-wingers would say that it is reasonable that Michael Jackson's mugshot is included to the article.
- Besides, the suggestion that I am from Stormfront is a terrible personal insult as I have indicated my philo-Semitism on numerous occasions.
- MoritzB 04:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- But the article isn't about your personal viewpoints on homosexuality. And, while you may want to feel included by putting your viewpoints in the article, this is a general encyclopedia, not necessarily a place to network for like-minded folks. There are plenty of places all over the net where you, with your viewpoints, could be made to feel like a welcome part of a group. Please seek one of these communities out and enjoy yourself. KP Botany 05:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please look at my edit. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexuality&diff=154665614&oldid=154664842
- I made it in good faith and quoted a 2004 peer-reviewed scientific study. No original research or personal opinions.
- MoritzB 05:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I did look at your edit. I'm also familiar with the study and subsequent research, and the researchers involved, and the journal, and other journals which published related research, including a 2006 article about this very article. I could, myself, appropriately use that article and subsequent research in various articles on Wikipedia. However, unlike you, I don't have a political agenda for Wikipedia articles, and, again, unlike you, I'm not particularly interested in the article on Homosexuality, certainly not interested enough in it and that one jounral publication and my own political agenda to connect dots in ways they don't connect, then use endless time trying to continue forcing it on folks. You've admitted your political agenda trumps acurate and neutral information. I believe you. KP Botany 05:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, I don't have a political agenda here. However, some left-wing editors have inferred that I am a conservative and try to block me because they disagree with my opinions.
- However, as I have pointed out before even many Communists could agree with my edits.
- When I am constructing a new section I do so in steps adding information about scientific studies as soon as I find them. It is not helpful when others are deleting information instead of adding it. And if you note an editor immediately expressed support to my edits in the other article in question [108] and now reverted the article back to my version. [109] MoritzB 05:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I did look at your edit. I'm also familiar with the study and subsequent research, and the researchers involved, and the journal, and other journals which published related research, including a 2006 article about this very article. I could, myself, appropriately use that article and subsequent research in various articles on Wikipedia. However, unlike you, I don't have a political agenda for Wikipedia articles, and, again, unlike you, I'm not particularly interested in the article on Homosexuality, certainly not interested enough in it and that one jounral publication and my own political agenda to connect dots in ways they don't connect, then use endless time trying to continue forcing it on folks. You've admitted your political agenda trumps acurate and neutral information. I believe you. KP Botany 05:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- But the article isn't about your personal viewpoints on homosexuality. And, while you may want to feel included by putting your viewpoints in the article, this is a general encyclopedia, not necessarily a place to network for like-minded folks. There are plenty of places all over the net where you, with your viewpoints, could be made to feel like a welcome part of a group. Please seek one of these communities out and enjoy yourself. KP Botany 05:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Engels' views of homosexuality are completely irrelevant. This thread is not about whether or not you are correct in believing that there's a causality between homosexuality and pedophilia. It's about whether you have read and understood WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE which have been cited to you time and again. Pretty much all of your edits on Wikipedia have lead to edit wars and your reaction is always that this is due to left-wingers' censorship. Perhaps it's time to consider the possibility that you're doing something wrong. I'm trying hard to assume you are indeed acting in good faith when you create an article like Negro problem or when you defend Fourdee or when you decide to switch to a new controversial topic once you've exhausted everyone's patience on one talk page or when you decide that [110] this is a really important thing to mention about Elbaite. But Picaroon's explanation that you're just having fun creating problems is more and more convincing. Either way, I don't think your presence on the project makes much sense. Pascal.Tesson 06:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ah. I've just stumbled across this, having been working over on WP:RPP. The pedophilia article has now been fully protected due to edit-warring per request. Also, MoritzB and others have been final-warned for WP:3RR on the homosexuality and pedophilia articles - Alison ☺ 06:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- What exactly was the problem with the article about Negro Problem which was inter alia about the famous book of W. E. B. DuBois named the Negro problem and Gunnar Myrdal's book. Just a Google search is enough to establish the notability of the phrase. There is also an article about the Jewish Question which was a Nazi concept. The article should be restored. MoritzB 06:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem was this version which begins with The phrase 'Negro problem' has been used to refer to the problems caused by the presence of blacks in the New World, especially in the United States (which in essence establishes the fact that the presence of blacks is a problem) then follows up with a lenghty quote about the disastrous consequences of miscegenation. It also happens to be a fork of African American history and Race in the United States. Pascal.Tesson 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then please make the appropriate changes. Do not delete an article which clearly satisfies WP:NOTE Also, I put there a longer quote about the desirability of miscegenation. It was a historical concept and historical views are also relevant. I also included the Marxist perspective. See: http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1948/revolutionary-answer.htm
- MoritzB 07:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, I'm not going to "fix" a content fork. Pascal.Tesson 07:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem was this version which begins with The phrase 'Negro problem' has been used to refer to the problems caused by the presence of blacks in the New World, especially in the United States (which in essence establishes the fact that the presence of blacks is a problem) then follows up with a lenghty quote about the disastrous consequences of miscegenation. It also happens to be a fork of African American history and Race in the United States. Pascal.Tesson 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- What exactly was the problem with the article about Negro Problem which was inter alia about the famous book of W. E. B. DuBois named the Negro problem and Gunnar Myrdal's book. Just a Google search is enough to establish the notability of the phrase. There is also an article about the Jewish Question which was a Nazi concept. The article should be restored. MoritzB 06:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Betacommand (talk · contribs), presumably BetacommandBot
Is now tagging user subpages for deletion en mass, for no particular reason--69.118.235.97 21:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That is very bizarre, I'll try to contact him on his talk page. This is really weird.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah Im nuking userspace cruft. βcommand 21:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Three of those user sub pages are backup copies of archival templates for the reference desk--69.118.235.97 22:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- And most admins are loathe to speedy things like sandbox pages in userspace, anyways. --Haemo 22:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- The edit rate looks too slow to be a bot. Videmus Omnia Talk 22:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I just reverted the tagging because I honestly wasn't sure. But are all those mostly clutter? Some are sandboxes.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 22:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Betacommand, these pages appear harmless. I suggest that tagging this type of pages, even if the tags were earned (which is very debatable at best), really is not a high priority. Newyorkbrad 22:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Im what Im doing is tagging nonsense pages, and PRODing per policy. these pages havent been edited in months, these are pages created by users who have since left the project. Most of these pages havent been edited in over a year. βcommand 22:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- At least 3 are currently being used as templates for the reference desk, and belong to a user who has edited as recently as within the last few weeks.--69.118.235.97 22:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Policy aside, what is the benefit to Wikipedia to deleting these pages? -Chunky Rice 22:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- If they're prods, anyone who objects can certainly remove it, but I too fail to see any urgency in this. Unless it's an attack page or something of the sort, dormant userspace pages don't really do any harm. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree - it looks to me as though this will be far more work than worthwhile, and could cause more harm than good. KillerChihuahua?!? 01:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Especially since this is not even saving Wikipedia disk space, since we keep all deleted article revisions, and new revisions are being created because of the prod tags! Cleaning up harmless pages in userspace is pretty close to the end of the useful tasks possible to do on Wikipedia; Betacommand, I'd encourage you to go and find something that's a little bit more urgent a problem, and/or less likely to annoy someone. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree - it looks to me as though this will be far more work than worthwhile, and could cause more harm than good. KillerChihuahua?!? 01:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- If they're prods, anyone who objects can certainly remove it, but I too fail to see any urgency in this. Unless it's an attack page or something of the sort, dormant userspace pages don't really do any harm. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Continued WP:STALK, WP:UNCIVIL, and WP:EW by Chrisjnelson
Chrisjnelson (talk · contribs) continues to behave in a manner that is counter productive. In addition to an RFC on his behavior and an ArbCase involving me and him as the principal parties - he continues to operate unchecked. The latest of this is on Michael Vick, but you will see remnants of this at Talk:Jermaine Wiggins, and at User talk:Ksy92003. He continues to drive editors away, make uncivil statements in his edit summaries and his talk pages and has refused to participate in the ArbCom case. This needs to be handled as he has followed me to several articles and reverts my edits (and with poor reason as well). Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 22:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Umm... no.►Chris Nelson 22:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Shouldn't there be like... some evidence here? Unless... there isn't any. Yeah, I said "shit" in a recent edit summary of Michael Vick. So I apologize for that. I was just a little offended Juan accused me of edit warring when I made a completely benevolent edit that had nothing to do with him. As for following him to several articles, I admit I arrived at them from his contributions page but my edits were not in relation to his (at least not intentionally, I did not view his diffs) and I made no reverts at that time. So that's a lie. Just like when he accused me of edit warring today. All lies. Other than that, he's right on the money.►Chris Nelson 22:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)
- Actually, yes. Your edit summaries and other comments you've made have been hurtful to me, in particular. I made an incredibly minor edit ([111]) which did more good than harm, clearly, and I was reverted by Chris; his edit summary: "Sorry, I disagree with all these edits" which to me seemed like an obnoxious statement by somebody who seems to not want his words changed. In a comment on my talk page (visible on this version of my talk page), Chris said "I'm undoing [your edit] because I've thought about that intro, [and] I've used it on a ton of player pages." Later, in a comment (visible on this version of Chris' talk page), Chris said "Well I am a better writer than you. That's pretty obvious" which I took very offensively. These are only a few examples of Chris' (in my opinion) selfish and disruptive behavior. Ksy92003(talk) 22:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you've misinterpreted some of my words.►Chris Nelson 22:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- jmfangio - either rovide some evidence or drop it. Both of you take your feud elsewhere unless you have something that actually isn't wasting other editor's time. Spartaz Humbug! 22:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- How much evidence would you like? I would love to drop it but CJN continues to instigate. Speaking specifically to the stalking portion - this edit was the last of three edits i made (in a row) to Jermaine Wiggins, the edits were to change the infobox to a newly instituted one. CJN had never edited that article previously. Yet this edit was nothing more than an edit to the content i had just inserted. There is more; and as you can see - there are clearly others having issue with this persons behavior. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Already explained the Wiggins thing. Anything else?►Chris Nelson 23:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Further evidence - this edit was my first edit to vick today which he very quickly reverted here. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's not evidence of anything...►Chris Nelson 23:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think Chrisjnelson was stalking anyone. From WP:STALK: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason." If you can find evidence that Chrisjnelson was following your edits specifically to harass you, then you would have a case. ugen64 23:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's the problem ugen - that's not what he's doing. He's showing up on articles he has never edited before and making edits that have been identified as contentious - this is just an extension of a much bigger problem. I have continued to find new articles and leave him alone and yet he continues to show up on pages I edit. I have not violated wiki policy with these edits, i have not inserted a single image (in these edits) and if you look at the content - they are at best - nothing more than "differences of opinion". Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think Chrisjnelson was stalking anyone. From WP:STALK: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason." If you can find evidence that Chrisjnelson was following your edits specifically to harass you, then you would have a case. ugen64 23:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah that's the thing. I fully admit I got there from his contributions page, and at the request of User:B I've agreed not to view it anymore, but I was never editing them to undo anything he did or combat his edits. I wasn't trying to harass anyone; they were totally benevolent edits. There were no reverts made from the times I was there on his talk page. If I recall correctly, the first revert between the two of us at Jermaine Wiggins was done by him.►Chris Nelson 23:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Evidence of an agitating statement here Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would an admin please tell me what was wrong with that? Jmfangio hasn't provided any good evidence. Let's just close this ridiculous thing.►Chris Nelson 23:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Didn't we just have a WP:CSN brokered aggrement that these two would leave each other alone? And based on that the arbcom hearing that was going to review both of their conduct was dropped? am I missing something? what changed? --Rocksanddirt 23:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've tried to leave him alone, he keeps accusing me of things (lies) like edit-warring and crap.►Chris Nelson 23:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- So you've tried to leave me alone but you continue to use my edit history to find new articles to edit? Chris - stop! You do this to everyone, you've done this to Michigan10 (talk · contribs), to Ksy92003 (talk · contribs), Xanderer (talk · contribs), Yankees10 (talk · contribs) - just stop. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Juan - what are you talking about, I "continue to use your edit history"? That's not true at all. I haven't been to your contributions page since the original Wiggins/Terrell incident and B asked me not to go there. You have no evidence of me doing this further. and REMOVED PERSONS NAME - your problems, not mine.►Chris Nelson 23:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why are you disclosing someone's name? Admins - i really don't have anything else to say here. He continues to instigate users, continues to abuse us, you can see a bunch of this at User:Jmfangio/arbcom evidence. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 23:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly - no evidence. We done here?►Chris Nelson 23:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
So if this [112] is not applicable, why don't you go back to the arbcomm and get both of your conduct sorted out. Obviously, the aggreement didn't work, as the disruption continues. --Rocksanddirt 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- You've only provided evidence of tiny things YOU take way too seriously and get all bent out of shape about. THAT is not my problem. If I dished out some serious personal attacks, then it'd be my problem. But if I think I'm a better writer than you and you're going to freak out and say things like "HOW DARE YOU" (which is adorable, by the way) that's YOUR problem. Hope thing clarifies it.►Chris Nelson 00:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Will you just fucking shut up and disengage? What are you here for? You're supposed to be here to help create an encyclopedia, not war. You're not helping. Maxim(talk) 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- You've only provided evidence of tiny things YOU take way too seriously and get all bent out of shape about. THAT is not my problem. If I dished out some serious personal attacks, then it'd be my problem. But if I think I'm a better writer than you and you're going to freak out and say things like "HOW DARE YOU" (which is adorable, by the way) that's YOUR problem. Hope thing clarifies it.►Chris Nelson 00:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
So I provide evidence, and you just decide that it's not good enough? You continue to say that this isn't your problem. How can you deny that comments that you make aren't your problem? I don't get how you can deny that. I think you just don't want to be held responsible for your reactions. Ksy92003(talk) 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because they're childish and trivial. They are legitimate personal attacks. If I REALLY made some personal attacks, it'd be a serious thing. But I didn't. I made trivial little comments that you took offense to because of some personality trait of yours. Not my problem. If you want to try to get my blocked for thinking I'm a better writer than you, have at it. But it's like when Juan complained about my calling him "dude". It was such a silly and childish complaint, no one took it seriously.►Chris Nelson 01:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well my point is this - I don't give a shit.►Chris Nelson 01:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
While I will not block, as I am involved in the ArbCom case and the issue in general, I'm going to encourage that someone please help these two to take some cooldown time. This has really gotten to the point of ridiculous. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've blocked Chris, I'm unsure about Ksy and Juan, they've been reasonably civil. Maxim(talk) 01:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- After looking farther I agree with your judgment, I think Chris has indeed been the primary cause of the issue in this case. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've blocked Chris, I'm unsure about Ksy and Juan, they've been reasonably civil. Maxim(talk) 01:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Chris is lucky someone else acted before me: I would have imposed a one week block for gross violations of WP:POINT, and that was before I noted the name disclosure he made here. DurovaCharge! 03:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles being disruptive
First off: this user comments in many pop culture articles AFD debates (many of which I strongly feel he hasn't even seen the article of). His comments such as "keep per.." are a constant in AFDs, even though people have told him several times to stop doing that. Plus his other random AFD keep comments such as "it has good images, so keep it" aren't very useful. People have told him about policies: yet he doesn't think he should have to read them (or simply doesn't want to follow them). Another reason for keep he's given is something along the lines of "my students find it useful, so keep the article". Secondly: he has had various issues with video game images. He claims it's alright to just take a picture of a video game box, and then stick it wherever even if it's not correct (or free use and so on). People have told him numerous times about this: yet he continues to upload images that are incorrect. Also he's claimed to take a break from AFDs: yet he still continues to actively comment in just about any "fictional" or "pop culture" article that is nominated. Making false promises, doesn't help things out. I suggest someone needs to mentor him, or he needs to be watched closely. Other than those issues, he doesn't seem to be a trouble maker or vandal (from what I see at least). RobJ1981 22:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I find this post incredibly unfair and perhaps retaliatory, because I have participated in some AfDs that RobJ1981 created ([113], [114], [115], [116], [117], [118]) and that many other users have indicated their intentions to "keep" as well. Moreover, you'll notice that other editors also post "keep per X" kinds of posts as well. Finally, as regards that particular criticism, please also remember that Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions is "not a policy or guideline and editors are not bound by its advice." In some of these discussions, few editors outside of User:Otto4711 and a couple others actively push for deletions. I have greatly reduced my participation in AfDs (check my edits for today, for example, and you'll see maybe 50 or so "welcome" and other article improvement edits for every AfD I've participated in. Someone (RobJ1981) who keeps nominating articles for deletion that a good number of fellow editors think should be kept might also benefit from re-reading policies. I replied to EVERY post RobJ1981 made on my talk page, but he continues to post there apparently ignoring my replies and efforts to discuss with him. Rob made this post at 21:53, 30 August 2007. I replied at 22:06, 30 August 2007]. As my edit history shows, after reading and replying to Rob's post, I have NOT participated in any additional AfDs. Yet, all of a sudden, I go to my talk page to see this post!? Why would you bring me here when a) I responded to your initial post and b) did not and have not posted in any AfDs since the last one I did which was at least a couple of hours before he even made the 21:53 post? You posted a comment. I replied and I have not posted in any AfDs since and even those I did earlier was while working with my mentor to learn how to contribute successfully in those discussions. Your behavior in this regard seems like a personal attack based on ideological grounds. Rob even suggested I get a mentor in his most recent post, which obviously ignores the fact that I do have a mentor in administrator Chaser, whom I have discussed many edits with on my talk page as any quick glance of my talk page would show. In fact Chaser is CURRENTLY mentoring me regarding AfDs! I do not "continue" to upload images that are considered inappropriate. Please look at my images and when I uploaded them in regards to any comments. I have replied to any posts about images on my pages and am happy to discuss and learn about what is acceptable. Rob, you are assuming bad faith out of your disagreements with me over popular culture articles, and are not accurately reflecting my efforts to work with my mentor (Chaser) to see how to better participate in AfDs or to try different ways of acceptable image use. Take for example the Reel Fishing images. After being cautioned about the close up image, being removed, I instead tried a further away not as good quality picture that did not just focus on the covers. I similarly instead of the close up of the Lethal Enforcers game cases, tried one of the game cartridge and light guns. Please check my image log history. After Image:Lethal Enforcers for SNES and PS.jpg and Image:All three Reel Fishing games.jpg were deleted, the ONLY two images I uploaded afterwards were the lower quality ones that did not highlight game box art: Image:Reel fishing games with special controller.jpg and Image:Lethal Enforcers and justifiers for SNES.jpg. In other words, I received input on images, and I worked to adjust the images to better follow policy. I would be happy to discuss whether or not these photos are instead better and these are the ONLY two photos I uploaded after the three were deleted a few hours back. For what it is worth, I have just asked an admin if the two new images are more along the lines of what would be acceptable and am awaiting his response. Please accurately reflect what is happening. Should I criticize you for constantly nominating "in popular culture" articles that a sizable percentage of the community obviously want kept? I am happy to cut back my time at AfDs even more than I have and to wait and see what an experienced editor thinks of the two new photos I uploaded today, but calling good faith edits undertaken in a civil manner "disruptive" is insulting and uncalled for, especially when I have sought mentorship and am trying (and learning) a variety of different ways to edit constructively on this site. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 23:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
When this user first came to WP, I thought many of his AfD comments showed insufficient thought, supporting the inclusion of both worthy and patently unworthy articles, and, being myself one arguing frequently for inclusion, I thought such a pattern totally unhelpful, and I told him so, on and off wiki. Over time I think his comments have gradually become somewhat more thoughtful. The discussions on popular culture have been exceptionally divisive and bitter, and once more I find GRC supporting the same articles I do. I myself give very extended analyses at times, as do some of the people taking the other position. But the debates have however become somewhat repetitive, with the people urging deletion using essentially the same arguments for all articles, often identically the exact same words on dozens of articles, without necessarily showing the understanding of the difference between acceptable articles and unimportant subjects. When this user first came to WP, I thought many of his AfD comments showed insufficient thought, supporting the inclusion of both worth and patently unworthy articles, and, being myself generally an inclusionist, I thought such a pattern totally unhelpful, and the sort of thing that does not aid rational inclusion of what is appropriate, and I said so. Over time I think they have gradually become somewhat more thoughtful. The discussions on popular culture have been exceptionally divisive, and I find GRC often supporting the same articles I do. I myself give very extended analyses at times, almost as long as some of the people taking the other position. The arguments have however become somewhat repetitive, with the people urging deletion using often the same words for dozens of articles, and it is understandable that those on the other side might do the same. I try to resist the temptation, and the necessary custom-fitted replies have been taking over an hour a day. I do not expect everyone to have the same degree of intensity abut this as I. But I do wish he'd give fuller explanations that would help convince people more effectively. I've told him so several times. I too do not think "my students find it useful" a good argument. I've seen lots of bad arguments from both sides in thse and most other AfDs. If we brought everyone who said Idontlikeit, or metoo to AN/I, we'd turn into Deletion Review part Two. .... Possibly this will be discounted because we often support the same articles, but then the previous comment should be discounted for always opposing on many articles. As for images, I have not been following those discussions. DGG (talk) 00:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear DGG, I appreciate your fair and constructive feedback. I am holding off uploading any new images until I hear from User:Golbez and I hadn't even posted in any AfDs for at least two hours before Rob made this post to my talk page, which I replied to and after which I have not posted anything in any AfDs in the first place. I will discuss AfDs further with Chaser and since you seem to be quite experienced with them as well, I will take your good faith advice to heart should I ever participate in any more in the future. I also wish that Rob's comments on my few postings in AfDs lately would have better reflected the diverse way in which I handle myself as I did here when I even provided some links that I thought could be helpful or here when I linked to essays that I thought made appropriate arguments applicable to that discussion. Again, though, I am awaiting image feedback from Golbez and AfD strategy feedback from Chaser. Maybe a useful idea would be for someone to suggest a random AfD for me to participate in and to practice making a solo argument and then received feedback from my mentor on what to improve on? Finally, I strongly agree with what DGG has said about the divisiveness of the in popular culture AfDs. I've noticed the same users nominating these and the same ones almost immediately posting similarly worded "delete" rationals in practically all of them. Perhaps the community should set up a special page for a discussion on these kinds of things as we obviously don't have consensus in the AfDs and I think a lot of us are either nominating articles just because they're "in popular culture" and wanting to keep them as well. I fear that both sides are pushing POINT a lot as well and so maybe a separate policy discussion needs to take place? Just some ideas and thanks again for the feedback, DGG. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
(I'm Roi's mentor/adopter.) I'm not sure what kind of administrative action Rob expects regarding AFD comments. We don't usually take action against editors for poor arguments at AFD even if the arguments are against deletion policy (which applies to articles, not editors). As Rob said, "Many of [Roi's] 'keep per whoever' AFD comments aren't even going to go noticed by the person that closes the debate." We similarly weigh arguments and give policy higher value at DRV. As to the images, I agree those are a problem, one that I brought up with Roi yesterday. Now I'm off to resolve that issue.--Chaser - T 02:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the feedback; I will, as always, abide by your advice. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Durova, I appreciate your feedback and guidance over the past couple of months. I am, of course, about outraged to see this discussion here for the various reasons I included in my posts above and have been having a pleasant email discussion with Chaser regarding AfDs, which as you'll see from my edit history are an incredibly small fraction of my contributions as of late. You'll also notice from my talk page that Chaser and I are actively seeking feedback on how to tag images. I find this thread to have been posted in incredibly bad faith when it concerns matters that my mentor and I are in the process of reviewing and when they are a relatively minor aspect of my contributions as of late. Again, I thank you for your response and am as always appreciative of any constructive comments you have. Also, I have participated in the RfA of an individual that you nominated. I have only participated in a few of these thus far and would appreciate any feedback if my posting there is "good" or "appropriate", i.e. if that is the way to go in those discussions. Thanks! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 04:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well my advice to you has always been to tread lightly at AFD. Likewise, I ask other editors to cite recent diffs if they see problems: Le Grand Roi has been attempting to do what I ask of any formerly banned editor - make a productive return. We've always known he's an inclusionist. If he's learned to keep that within the realms of policy-compliant inclusionism then there isn't a problem. DurovaCharge! 14:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Durova, I have consulted with two admins regarding how to phrase my AfD posts in the future and after receiving their feedback last night and this morning, I have participated in this discussion. You'll note that I use references and a much more elaborate argument. I hope that this approach is better and I look forward to continuing to improve. --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 14:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well my advice to you has always been to tread lightly at AFD. Likewise, I ask other editors to cite recent diffs if they see problems: Le Grand Roi has been attempting to do what I ask of any formerly banned editor - make a productive return. We've always known he's an inclusionist. If he's learned to keep that within the realms of policy-compliant inclusionism then there isn't a problem. DurovaCharge! 14:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Durova, I appreciate your feedback and guidance over the past couple of months. I am, of course, about outraged to see this discussion here for the various reasons I included in my posts above and have been having a pleasant email discussion with Chaser regarding AfDs, which as you'll see from my edit history are an incredibly small fraction of my contributions as of late. You'll also notice from my talk page that Chaser and I are actively seeking feedback on how to tag images. I find this thread to have been posted in incredibly bad faith when it concerns matters that my mentor and I are in the process of reviewing and when they are a relatively minor aspect of my contributions as of late. Again, I thank you for your response and am as always appreciative of any constructive comments you have. Also, I have participated in the RfA of an individual that you nominated. I have only participated in a few of these thus far and would appreciate any feedback if my posting there is "good" or "appropriate", i.e. if that is the way to go in those discussions. Thanks! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 04:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
User revealing other users' real identity - this is bad
Is this the correct place to notify Wikipedia administration of wrongful behavior? User "Ubuntu user" has posted the real identity of an editor. This is wrong and deserves punishment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:194.123.230.36&diff=prev&oldid=154450487
Rather than just say "hello", this person said "Hello, Mabel and Friso". This happened yesterday.
For anyone who knows, Friso is a Dutch prince and Mabel is his wife. Mrs.EasterBunny 22:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I did a WHOIS lookup on the IP and it resolves to "Koninklijk Paleis Huis ten Bosch" (Huis ten Bosch), indeed the royal palace. User:Ubuntu user posted on Princess Mabel's talk page a message that included... "Althought I'm a Dutch republican, I think it is great the Dutch Royal family participates on wikipedia." So I think it was done without malicious intent. In addition I believe there was a news article in the Dutch press about that specific edit (the princess editing her own page to remove negative POV, or something like that, I'm just guessing from stuff posted on talk pages). I have no idea what to do with this issue though... ugen64 23:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- (a.e.c.) According to the well-sourced "editing negative information" section of our article Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau, the Dutch Government Information Service confirmed prior to Ubuntu's "revealing" a putative identity that the sole edit from the IP at issue was indeed made by the those whom Ubuntu addressed. Whilst it may nevertheless be untoward or otherwise ill-advised or acollegial to refer by name to an editor whom one identifies other than by the editor's revealing his identity on-wiki, there appears to be no outing here (of course, in view of WHOIS, to which we link from IP contribs pages, there is really nothing to "out"—I suppose one's suggesting the specific identity of someone editing under an IP the owner and geographic location of which we know might be in poor form), and, it seems, nothing should require any further action. Joe 00:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As evidenced by the utter lack of condemnation of Wikiscanner, the "outing"/privacy rules don't apply to IP users, only people who get accounts. --Random832 23:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Condemnation of Wikiscanner for doing what? He hasn't done anything that couldn't be done manually with a lot of digging. Corvus cornix 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
They were outed by the press, not by Ubuntu user. See my edits at Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-08-27/In_the_news. Corvus cornix 23:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm not seeing any nonpublic information being outed here. The press has already reported on the story, the royal family themselves have already acknowledged it, and the RDNS provides about as clear of an indicator as you could want. This wouldn't even require a lot of digging to find, a bit of googling and an RDNS would do just fine. It'd be more like someone referring to me as Todd—I have that information on my userpage, they're not "outing" me by that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Template testing
Nosseta, Knosseta, and another sock, Krighter1, have all been blocked. And my question was answered. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This is something I haven't encountered before. I just reverted a test edit (diff) to template:Test template which has been unused since March, 2006. The user (Nosseta (talk · contribs); this was their first edit) argues that it is a test template and can be used for this purpose (dif). Is this ok? Is there a template sandbox I can refer them to? Incidently they've now started to test edit Template:Nossetas test template. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 01:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is now obviously a vandalism-only situation, but my general questions still apply. Flyguy649 talk contribs 01:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if there isn't actually a template sandbox, I feel there should be. It is a fair idea. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 02:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As Wikipedia:Sandbox says, templates {{X1}} through {{X9}} are sandboxes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if there isn't actually a template sandbox, I feel there should be. It is a fair idea. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 02:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 02:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Persistent wikistalking and insults from User:Fahrenheit451 (pt.2)
This was brought up here a few days ago and User:Fahrenheit451 was warned here to cease his aggressive and insulting behavior, but it's still continuing. See here. First he accuses me yet again of being in the cofs (Church of Scientology) then states (apropos of absolutely nothing) "We have no evidence of WPD's affiliations or gender." (he now refers to me as "WPD" after being ordered to stop calling me "Trixi".)
Further, he followed up a warning I gave to a tendentious editor with this comment linking to a frankly paranoid and bizarre screed about OSA Agents working undercover at Wikipedia, and the edit summary "defense against the badgering". This sort of paranoid vendetta from someone I don't even know and who doesn't know me at all is really beginning to freak me out. wikipediatrix 03:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Update: In revenge, he's now placed a complaint below that my complaint here is false, even though he himself is linking to the very diff that shows him calling my religious affiliation, my motives for editing Wikipedia, and even more bizarrely, my gender into question for no apparent reason, as well as having the nerve to call another editor "uncivil" for defending me against his insults. This is increasingly frightening and disturbing. I want this person to stop making insults and insinuations at me and about me, directly and indirectly.wikipediatrix 03:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
JzG deleted the rant wikipediatrix refers to as a bad use of userspace. ThuranX 14:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Wikipediatrix false reports on AN/I
Wikipediatrix harassed and badgered a user with a very uncivil comment. My comments were to the user who I have edited with and did not address her. Her post above is nothing short of a violation of WP:NPA.--Fahrenheit451 03:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is the thread from the false accusations WPD made in the first paragraph of the posting here:[119]--Fahrenheit451 03:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I comment that WPD's "update" is more of the same attempt to create problems for me with false accusations.--Fahrenheit451 04:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I propose that WPD and I have a mediation. Hopefully, this will settle the ongoing animosity.--Fahrenheit451 04:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- However, in the citation above, you wrote: « We have no evidence of WPD's affiliations or gender. » Wikipediatrix has very clearly stated that she is a woman and not a Scientologist. Please remember WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Your unsubstantiated insinuations are of no interest on WP. --Mathsci 07:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
What part of(struck per below. LessHeard vanU 14:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
are you still having difficulty with? The editors name is wikipediatrix. You have been requested by both wikipediatrix and myself to not use abbreviations. LessHeard vanU 09:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)"What part of "do not use abbreviations of the editors username", and "do not use them in a familiar manner" are you having difficulty understanding? ... LessHeard vanU 09:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)"
- I am not a party to this discussion, but I'm curious what policy you're citing? There's nothing in NPA about it, and I've been called BB a number of times without incident. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASS. Fahrenhiet451 has been requested not to use abbreviations of wikipediatrix's username by the editor following instances when she considered he used them in an inappropriately familiar manner which she found to be unsettling. When I warned Fahrenheit451 regarding the harassment I specifically requested he keep his language formal, including using the concerned editors full username. LessHeard vanU 10:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see. Ironically, your misspelling of his own username runs the risk of turning up the heat. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, my typo's are generally to be found in the most inappropriate places... ;~) Sorted, cheers. LessHeard vanU 11:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't really object to being called "WPD", although that may confuse other editors in the course of discussions - I do object to being called "Trixi", I do object to him calling it "badgering" when I ask another editor not to edit-war and to start using talk pages and edit summaries, I do object to his insinuations about my gender, I do object to being accused of being a Scientologist, I do object to being accused of being in the OSA. I'm not interested in going thru any drawn-out mediation rigamarole, I just want Fahrenheit451 to stop saying these things. Am I way off base for expecting that? wikipediatrix 13:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- (I have struck my earlier comment per yours above. I would, however, suggest that in requesting Farenheit451 - and I've just noticed I've been transposing the "ie" - adopt a formal tone in your discussions that he doesn't use abbreviations; both for clarity and to stop precedent.LessHeard vanU 14:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
- "Way off base"? no. Likely to get it? dubious. he ought to back off, but if he didn't the first time, and he's not the second time, as this section he opened proves, it's unlikely he's going to change soon. that said, I'd like to hear from him again in this section, regarding the discussion that's ongoing. ThuranX 14:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't really object to being called "WPD", although that may confuse other editors in the course of discussions - I do object to being called "Trixi", I do object to him calling it "badgering" when I ask another editor not to edit-war and to start using talk pages and edit summaries, I do object to his insinuations about my gender, I do object to being accused of being a Scientologist, I do object to being accused of being in the OSA. I'm not interested in going thru any drawn-out mediation rigamarole, I just want Fahrenheit451 to stop saying these things. Am I way off base for expecting that? wikipediatrix 13:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASS. Fahrenhiet451 has been requested not to use abbreviations of wikipediatrix's username by the editor following instances when she considered he used them in an inappropriately familiar manner which she found to be unsettling. When I warned Fahrenheit451 regarding the harassment I specifically requested he keep his language formal, including using the concerned editors full username. LessHeard vanU 10:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am not a party to this discussion, but I'm curious what policy you're citing? There's nothing in NPA about it, and I've been called BB a number of times without incident. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have requested a mediation on an scientology-related article that has had a loong history of hostile edit-warring. WPD is one of the editors of that article. My aim is to get all the editors there in a mediated discussion to work out whatever differences we need to. WPD is welcome to participate and, I think, would benefit by the discussion. I project that a successful mediation on this particular article will improve editor relations for all article of that genre. Now to respond to some of the points above: I really got that WPD dislikes "trixi" and no longer use it. Curiously, another editor has called her "trix" and I saw no protest. I am often refered to as F451 and could care less. In the above thread, LessHeard vanU has called me Farenheit451 and Fahrenhiet451, both of which are mispellings. I am not offended. On this wiki, I have known one editor who represented themself as a male, and another who represented themself as a female. We made telephone contact later and I found that they were the opposite gender of their wiki personas. So, unless I know someone here in real life, I don't believe or disbelieve what they may claim about themselves. That has nothing to do with WP:AGF as malice is not presumed. That is simply healthy skepticism. Assuming my use of he/she is an act of belligerence is not appropriate. Employing a formal tone is a constructive suggestion, but I encourage wikipediatrix (I typed it out) to mediate at this point to clear up basic misunderstandings, even if she views it as "rigamarole". --Fahrenheit451 15:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
THF and DavidShankBone
Can some admin whom these two have not yet alienated please tell them to just stay the heck away from each other? I've tried refereeing to no avail, and after the last exchange on my talk page came about this || close to blocking both of them for WP:POINT and, well, acting a fraction of their ages. Now it looks like it's Raul's turn to host the merriment. I'd really rather things didn't get out of hand, as both of them are smart guys and can be good contributors. But whatever I've been doing hasn't worked, so could someone else step in? Raymond Arritt 03:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Untying this gordian knot is second on my list of things to do after scheduling some more main page FAs. Raul654 03:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I've twice reached out to David and reached agreement that we would disengage, even after he sent me off-wiki threats using the Wikipedia e-mailer, and David has twice broken that agreement. I am happy to have a disengagement agreement a third time if David agrees to stop forum-shopping false COI accusations against me, which has historically been treated as problematic behavior. I ask for guidance how I am supposed to respond when David makes a false accusation against me, since asking David not to do so or rebutting the accusation or asking for guidance on the COIN page is being perceived as wrongful behavior. Per WP:COOL, I'm going to bed. THF 03:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- false COI accusations against me - COI is a matter of perception. And several editors besides David have suggested that you have a COI. Regardless any strict definition of COI, I wonder what the Wikipedia community or the Real World would think of adding non-controversial information related to the organization to which you are affiliated.[120] --Iamunknown 04:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Seriously? At this point it is THF going around ranting, opening COINs about himself simply over a question on a Talk page to Raul654. The threat THF keeps referring to in his effort to continually paint himself as a victim was no threat at all as I continually have explained to him, and I have continually invited him to bring it to ArbCom. But to not say he was threatened would hurt his quest to obtain victim pity. If you look in the last week, THF has been in arguments and had to cite WP:COOL and WP:HARASS and a number of other wiki-linked policies and guidelines to about 5 to 10 editors. Are all these people out for him as well? User:Turtlescrubber? User:GaryLambda? User:Guettarda? Those are just the ones today. You can't always see these arguments THF continually engages in because he takes them off his talk page. Seriously - Check out that diff to see what THF considers a violation of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. How can anyone take his claims serious when those are are personal attacks according to him? That's just one diff. Yet THF continually claims I am the disruptive editor? --David Shankbone 04:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
COI query by Iamunknown
Apologies, one last edit for tonight, since Iamunknown raises a different issue than whether I am harassing David by responding to accusations he has made against me.
In response to the specific diff Iamunknown raises, I requested comment on my World Health Organization edit at COIN, and people got mad that I even asked, and not a single person there said I violated COI. I am simultaneously criticized for being too diligent and for not being diligent enough. And noone questions a Harvard professor who inserts a cite to another Harvard professor in an article.
There is a COI guideline that states what violates COI and what doesn't, and I have followed it. I am not the first editor on Wikipedia affiliated with a thinktank who has sought to edit in his subject area, and precedent has stated that controversial experts are permitted to edit. Having a strong POV is not a COI. Is it really the case that Wikipedia has one set of standards for fellows from left-wing thinktanks and another set of standards for fellows from right-wing thinktanks? I hope not. And User:Cberlet edits a much higher percentage of articles directly in his subject field, while I have been accused of violating COI because I edited a subject that was loosely related to a client of a former employer.
Separately, I ask that Raul654 be recused from investigating this matter, as he has already prejudged the issue, and his position expressly contradicts WP:COI, arbcom precedent, and consensus at the COIN discussion where I opened an RFC on myself.
As I am trying to disengage from David Shankbone, I will not respond to the false accusations he makes against me, but hope that readers will take them with a grain of salt. THF 04:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- What's great about the arbcom precedent that THF keeps referring to says "provided they cite reliable sources for their contributions and respect Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, especially Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine and Wikipedia is not a battleground." Yet THF, in the midst of talking about Box Office Mojo's documentary rankings, used by all the mainstream media, decides it is wrong they don't include Eddie Murphy Raw and Jackass Number Two, writes his own articles, gets his employer to publish it, and then argues to have it included on 25 film articles (the ones on his list). How does that jive with ArbCom precedent? THF is real good about citing policy, guideline and precedent, just not following it. Wikipedia is not a battleground, but we can all remember THF's instigation of "Wikipedia vs. MichaelMoore.com". I like that THF doesn't want Raul654 to be involved because...well...he has an opinion that THF disagrees with. This paragraph, and the one above, are about all I need to say. Look at THFs contributions, and look at mine. What did I spend the day doing? Writing a mighty fine article called Reality film and cleaning up vandalism and copyediting. I added some photos of two subway stations and Burt Neuborne. Look at THF's edits: battle, battle, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:COOL, policy cite, COI accusations, argument with editor 1, argument with editor 2.... The diffs, the histories and the actions of THF speak for themselves. --David Shankbone 04:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- This mischaracterizes THF's action: Wikipedia is not a battleground, but we can all remember THF's instigation of "Wikipedia vs. MichaelMoore.com". When a Web site makes statements about a Wikipedia editor as a Wikipedia editor and when those can reasonably be construed by some as an attack or harassemnt, it isn't "instigating" to bring the matter up before Wikipedia administrators. The assumption in David Shankbone's comment above is that not only do others disagree with him on whether the Moore Web site was on the attack, but that it wasn't even a reasonable disagreement, and even that the subject of the attack was unreasonable in thinking he was being attacked. When a Web site says you must be contributing to Wikipedia on your work time and wouldn't that be of concern to your bosses (a point about the attack which should have been addressed much more in the discussions on Wikipedia), then at the very least there can be reasonable disagreement. Therefore David Shankbone should stop treating those who disagree with him as people simply battling and fighting and "instigating" and instead tone down his language in a way that indicates he's working toward consensus. Noroton 15:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- About that last sentence: it's something I've been guilty of in the past as well (the difference being, I'm trying to stop). Noroton 16:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, could you provide diffs for "Wikipedia vs. MichaelMoore.com"? As I recall, it was other editors, including remnants of the SlimVirgin minority who fought the war on his supposed behalf, unless asking a question on a noticeboard counts as marshaling his troops. You two should just avoid each other. And stop rehashing a talk page suggestion that THF made two weeks ago. He closed the RfC himself when it was clear consensus was against including his article. Jesus. Cool Hand Luke 05:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, Luke. Here, under the heading "Attack site" THF asks "What's the standard procedure for de-linking attack site [121]?" The link showed every michaelmoore.com had on the site. Just a simple question? That's a bit coy. He didn't ask "Is this an attack site" he asked what the procedure was to de-link it. You may remember User:Noroton began removing the site from Wikipedia, for which he was blocked - and you unblocked him. Then he started to remove the link again. You have supported THF, and his efforts to agenda push, at almost every turn, which included your support for having with having his unnotable attack piece on Moore disguised as a new way to rank documentaries inserted into Sicko (so it's not surprise you don't want that issue "rehashed"). --David Shankbone 12:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The most reasonable assumption about THF's state of mind once he'd seen what Moore had on his site was for THF to think he was under attack. You seem to have completely discounted the idea that he would have had that very human response. This fits a pattern in the way you've responded to others in this disagreement: You give the impression that their disagreement neither stems from sympathy to someone they honestly think is under attack, nor an honest belief in what Wikipedia policy is. Minutely examining the tone of someone's language as he just reports he's under public attack, describing his words as "a bit coy" (when you could just as easily have assumed he was trying to be restrained) isn't the way to bring a "battle" to conclusion but to keep feeding it. It assumes, that THF, even in the face of an attack that had just been made, only acted under calculation to disrupt Wikipedia for bad faith reasons. You don't treat a disagreement over a person the way you treat a disagreement over nonpersonal content in an article. This was a human dispute, not a content dispute, and therefore requires more sobriety than you, I and loads of others here had given it. Luke actually was one of the more sober contributors. I've reflected on my own actions and seen where I could have reacted better. Reflection's useful. I recommend it. Noroton 16:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm fine there. I was not the only one to support including it—in the footnote and not in the body of the text. I have no problem with anything I said there. I just think it's unproductive that you keep chastising him for a civil content dispute resolved weeks ago that never even reached the mainspace. Cool Hand Luke 13:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Clearly that issue is not resolved, and if anything, it goes to the very heart of the problem with THF. Considering that he is not an expert on film, or on documentaries, or on how to rank them, and considering that he was attacking Box Office MoJo's rankings by attacking Moore, this was a WP:WEIGHT violation that you supported. --David Shankbone 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As I recall, I was the first person to point out that it was a WEIGHT problem, and I specifically crafted my footnote suggestion to take that into account. I'm glad you now agree that it's a problem with WEIGHT and not OR. Cool Hand Luke 14:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- You don't make yourself look any better by spinning my answers. It was a problem with both. It was OR to declare Eddie Murphy Raw a documentary, or to say that IMAX films should be included in highest-grossing documentaries when they did not audit their box office until 2005. That's OR. That's what THF did, and he's not a film expert, he's a legal expert. --David Shankbone 14:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As I recall, you voted that "Ted Frank" was a notable pundit in the field of politics. Why would you object to citing his work as critical commentary on political topics? --Tbeatty 06:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- For the record, in response to Tbeatty, I am not at all complaining about the results of or seeking to reopen the good-faith content dispute to which Tbeatty refers. The content dispute took place entirely on talk pages, with no mainspace edits. After some difficulty deciding where to centralize the discussion, it was centered on Talk:Sicko. There were 54 comments in that discussion, and I made 9 of them. Another editor made 17 comments, another 7, two others 6 each, with the other 9 split up among several editors. Consensus was reached against my proposed edit after an RFC that I closed on 10 August, three weeks ago. (The "25 pages" allegation comes in response to a talk-page argument that if the cite about 25 films was put on one page, why not put it on 25 pages, and I agreed with that assessment.) The talk-page content dispute resulted in a COIN complaint, and the consensus of that was that I did not violate COI by making a talk-page request, which is exactly what WP:COI says to do. In the aftermath, there was extensive discussion at WT:COI, and a proposed change to the COI guideline to restrict talk-page discussion, explicitly aimed at me, was overwhelmingly rejected. THF 06:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, THF has no interest in either the success or failure of any of Michael Moore's commercial enterprises. As for politics, MichaelMoore is left of every conscious human being so I don't see how being "right" of Moore creates a conflict. THF's organization does not benefit from any sales or lack of sales for Michael Moore goods or services. Even the drug case that michaelmoore.com cited on his web site is not a conflict as Michael Moore is not a party to the suit. THF, in a testament to his character, has fully disclosed his affiliations. By the standards that are trying to be set here, anyone who donated to any cause including union dues or who voted in elections has a conflict of interest and it's ludicrous. --Tbeatty 05:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Umm, "Michael Moore is left of every conscious human being"?!?! That statement clearly establishes your POV. FCYTravis 07:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, that statement is humorous attempt at showing where Michael Moore stands. In the U.S., he is left of Ted Kennedy. In the rest of the world he is solidly left of center. That's simply a fact. --Tbeatty 16:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your post-facto attempt to dismiss that clearly-aimed comment as "humor" is unpersuasive. FCYTravis 17:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, that statement is humorous attempt at showing where Michael Moore stands. In the U.S., he is left of Ted Kennedy. In the rest of the world he is solidly left of center. That's simply a fact. --Tbeatty 16:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- To assume that pharmaceutical companies have no interest in denigrating Sicko is pretty naive. Therefore, working for an institute paid by such corporations to spin public opinion on their behalf seems to me to constitute a WP:COI.--Raphael1 10:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- TBeatty, that may be humorous, but it's sure as hell not accurate. Moore is to the left of centre in US politics, but the centre of US politics is well to the right of centre to start with. Guy (Help!) 12:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- MM is leftist by European standards as well. He would be leftist Labour in UK. Socialist in France. Come on. He is left of the vast majority of people in the world. --Tbeatty 16:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Possible remedy with THF and David Shankbone
What say from this point on, should THF or David mention the other in any forum, an uninvolved admin blocks the provocateur for sometime between 12-48 hours (or an escalating level), sorta like how ArbCom editting restrictions work?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I accept.
I have no complaints with David other than his repeatedly attacking me and mischaracterizing my history, andI could be more productive in a day than rewriting Weaknees and resolving a BLP/EW dispute if I didn't have to defend myself. Wikipedia is not a battleground, and I'm here to edit an encyclopedia. THF 05:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)- I know how much David can be stubborn at times but your COI issue is really relevant. As mentioned above by Iamunknown "COI is a matter of perception." Just tell me how many voters who have participated at T.F. AfD voted rationally and objectively, including the nominator? All i see that everything you and David are into has got something to do w/ COI. The community is a bit anxious and bothered. Do you have any suggestion on how to sort this out? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 10:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It would be very easy for the community to sort this out: enforce its principles even-handedly and make it clear that Wikipedia welcomes "controversial experts" and discourages harassment of them. Wikipedia has dealt with precisely this question before. There is no difference between my case and Cberlet's or William M. Connolley's. The difference is, when User:BabyDweezil repeatedly called Cberlet a "paid propagandist," he was blocked indefinitely for violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:BATTLE, and Berlet continues to this day to edit his own articles and articles of the people and organizations and movements he is paid to write about, all the while having a strong POV, but, like me, making Wikipedia-compliant mainspace edits. When someone does the same thing to me, admins join in, and of course people are encouraged to make uncivil and false attacks against me if they feel it will help push their POV. If the rules were enforced, there wouldn't be a problem, because people would know not to harass me. I have asked for comment at COI/N, explaining why the COI accusations are false, and was told both that (1) I am not violating COI, and (2) I should stop asking COI/N about it. What more can I do? THF 12:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Heh, a good first step in 'accepting' a restriction against mentioning David would have been to not use it as an opportunity to complain about him again. --CBD 10:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- THF has an agenda, he pushes it, he WP:GAMEs the guidelines and policies, and he continually asks for this Board's blessing. Here's a suggestion: Why don't you guys all discuss it, and THF and will I stay out of the conversation? If you have a question for one of us, or need to see diffs, ask on our Talk pages, which is where we'll answer. During the discussion, we won't engage each other, and we will refrain from editing Michael Moore pages, because 90% of the issues stem from his edits and Agenda on those pages (IMO). Now doesn't that sound reasonable? I'm happy to answer questions presented on my Talk page, supply difs, what have you. But once we get into it on this board, we take it over. --David Shankbone 11:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I recommend arbitration. The behavior of both editors needs to be examined in a thorough, deliberate and sober manner. - Crockspot 12:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that this probably will reach arbcom in the end, but think it's worth one last try to settle things in a less agonizing way. Raymond Arritt 12:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Raphael1 should be included in any arbitration, too, since he also insists upon repeated accusations of WP:COI violations based on facts that do not violate WP:COI, though he has been told by neutral parties that his accusations are silly, and consensus was against him at WP:COI/N#Sicko. THF 12:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was just reading Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Attachment Therapy and thought this comment may have some relevance here: "Editors at Wikipedia are expected to work towards neutral point of view in their editing activities. It is not possible to simultaneously pursue NPOV and an activist agenda. Editors who have exceptionally strong professional, political, or financial commitments to a particular point of view are asked to refrain from editing in affected subject areas. This is particularly true when the affected subject areas are controversial." It's not a stretch to suggest that THF has an "exceptionally strong professional commitment" to a certain POV in respect of Moore. THF vigorously asserts that he does not have a conflict of interest, but ArbCom seems to define COI in terms which arguably would apply. This is not going to be sorted out without wider input, and the only question is whether THF would accept the opinion of anyone other than ArbCom. Such opinion having ventured numerous times here and been rejected by THF, I wonder if perhaps it may be futile to try anything other than arbitration. This is not to prejudge the issue, only to call into question THF's willingess to accept any outcome other than to endorse his continued editing of these articles. However, it is undoubtedly time for David Shankbone to step back and leave it to others, as it is plain that THF will not co-operate with any attempts he might make to resolve the issue. Guy (Help!) 12:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- How can I be accused of "not co-operat[ing]" with any attempts I might make to resolve the issue? I've preemptively asked for guidance at COI/N repeatedly. Each time I was told--including by people who said that they found my views "disgusting"--that I was not violating COI. I haven't had to accept the opinion of anyone other than ArbCom, because not once has there been a consensus that I was violating COI. The more relevant Arbcom unanimously said A strong point of view expressed elsewhere on a subject does not necessarily mean POV-pushing editing on Wikipedia; that can only be determined by the edits to Wikipedia. THF 12:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- [EC] I didn't say that, what I said was that you are unlikely to accept any attempts by David to resolve the issue, so his continued involvement is not going to help anyone. There is a difference between holding a POV and making money by expounding it. I know you don't think there's any problem publishing criticism of Moore and also editing the articles, but what you think doesn't matter overmuch in the end, it's what others think. I also don't believe that you will accept any answer other than the one you want, unless it's in some binding and formalised form, as witness the fact that you argue with anyone who suggests that a conflict might exist. My interpretation of the ArbCom ruling is that there is at least grounds for disquiet over your editing articles relating to Moore, but what I think doesn't matter overmuch either, it's what the community as a whole thinks (in as much as it thinks anything). If ten admins were to tell you that you have a conflict, or at least enough of an appearance of one that you should restrict yourself to Talk, would that be enough for you? My hunch is that it would not. So I think this is a job for ArbCom, none of whom are involved thus far as far as I can see, so none can be accused of being involved. I have removed the duplicate of your post from my Talk, as that kind of thing seems to have served thus far only to spread the dispute to an ever-increasing number of venues. Guy (Help!) 13:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)`
- I think THF has a point here. There are too many issues being conflated in this discussion. I have the same problem as THF form the opposite side of the political spectrum. Some Wiki editors claim that since my views are progressive, that what I write and get published outside of Wikipedia is automatically a COI problem. I disagree. I think Arbcom already has a position on this issue, as mentioned by THF above. It is what is reflected in the actual Wiki edits that matters. Otherwise any published author will end up being banned as having a COI. That would be just sillyy and self-defeating for Wiki.--Cberlet 13:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you are paid to write opinion pieces about a subject, and then edit the subject in WP, then it looks bad. Always will. Guy (Help!) 13:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Particularly if you edit tendentiously, insist upon the inclusion of your most esoteric viewpoints in articles where they are not notable, and use Wikipedia as a soapbox. Then it obviously crosses the line from "experts editing in their field of expertise" to Unwarranted promotion of fringe theories and COI. --Marvin Diode 14:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree entirely. Do you have a diff where I have edited tendentiously? The worst thing I have done was to make 9 comments in a 54-comment talk-page thread about the inclusion of an a piece I wrote, and most of those comments were rebutting personal attacks. I withdrew from the discussion when JzG asked me to withdraw from the discussion, and I closed the RFC myself and accepted the consensus three weeks ago, and haven't sought to reopen the content dispute again since. Ironically, the editor who three weeks later is most angry that I made a talk-page suggestion about the possible inclusion of an op-ed inserted it himself into a different article. THF 14:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, that's a convenient way to spin what happened. If anyone is interested in a short, concise explanation of where all of these problems began, I explained it on User_talk:Cberlet#THF. --David Shankbone 14:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Any chance we could perhaps tone down the rhetoric? The problem here is actually pretty straightforward: the article subject, some editors and some admins, think THF has a conflict. There is some basis for that in recent ArbCom decisions. THF, with some supporters, says not. There is some support for that in ArbCom rulings too. Obviously it's never going to be THF's call whether he has a conflict or not, so we need to decide on a forum which is appropriate, will deliver the necessary decision, and whose verdict all parties will be prepared to accept. There are not many options. I'd say ArbCom is the only one, really, since mediation might repair the interaction between THF and David but it won't fix the underlying question of whether THF has a conflict. Guy (Help!) 18:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree entirely. Do you have a diff where I have edited tendentiously? The worst thing I have done was to make 9 comments in a 54-comment talk-page thread about the inclusion of an a piece I wrote, and most of those comments were rebutting personal attacks. I withdrew from the discussion when JzG asked me to withdraw from the discussion, and I closed the RFC myself and accepted the consensus three weeks ago, and haven't sought to reopen the content dispute again since. Ironically, the editor who three weeks later is most angry that I made a talk-page suggestion about the possible inclusion of an op-ed inserted it himself into a different article. THF 14:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Particularly if you edit tendentiously, insist upon the inclusion of your most esoteric viewpoints in articles where they are not notable, and use Wikipedia as a soapbox. Then it obviously crosses the line from "experts editing in their field of expertise" to Unwarranted promotion of fringe theories and COI. --Marvin Diode 14:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you are paid to write opinion pieces about a subject, and then edit the subject in WP, then it looks bad. Always will. Guy (Help!) 13:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Implications of punishing users for disclosure
I am starting to notice a trend: editors in a content dispute turn to COI/N to try to squelch the other side. We should not be falling into the trap of punishing editors who have disclosed their affiliations, especially when the accuser himself has not disclosed anything. (For all we know, one of the anonymous COI accusers could be Michael Moore himself!) We should be dealing with edits, not editors here, and I've still not seen one single abusive edit by THF. Until someone produces real evidence of POV-pushing by THF, this is nothing more than an overblown content dispute. ATren 14:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- We aren't arguing content. The issue here is what, if anything, should be done about mine and THF's feud. --David Shankbone 14:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's easy...stop feuding.--MONGO 15:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dang, you beat me to it. Tom Harrison Talk 15:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's easy...stop feuding.--MONGO 15:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I Agree with ATren. Disclosed affiliations are easier to monitor. If we prevent disclosed parties like THF from editing on their topics of expertise, we will only deter disclosure, not COI editing. THF exemplifies our ideal COI policy, but some editors seem bent on driving all potential conflicts of interest into anonymity. Cool Hand Luke 14:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- NB also that I have been so solicitous of the COI guideline that I have not touched the Ted Frank article, even though it is rife with at least eight factual errors or misleading statements, though COI and BLP permit the correction of such errors. I abstained from the AFD, though I have an opinion about guideline application to that AFD that has not been stated by any of the other 60 !votes. I even asked readers of my blog not to participate in the AFD. When someone asked me to stop reverting vandalism and to stop responding to fact tags in the article about my employer by filling in cites, I stopped making those noncontroversial edits, though WP:COI explicitly permits such edits. I have adhered to WP:BRD and not edit-warred. I'm here to help write an encyclopedia.
- I have objected only to attenuated claims of a COI, simply because those attenuated claims of COI contradict Wikipedia guidelines on what constitutes a COI. If JzG or others think the COI guideline is too narrow and should be applied to the subject area of former clients of a former employer, then modify the guideline, and I will follow the new consensus guideline, but don't ask to apply a non-existent guideline to me that isn't applied to left-wing thinktank members or other opinionated academics and attorneys who participate on Wikipedia. THF 15:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
That's a straw man argument, unless you can actually find a "left wing think tank member" this has applied to. While I'm opposed to any hard measures being taken in this case (especially considering your continued participation in what is a rather unique debate to date), let's not go smearing nonexistent people to make a point.Apparently this refers to Chip Berlet/User:Cberlet. Hrm. Chris Cunningham 15:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If THF is a public figure whose primary agenda is to "correct the record", be it against Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh regardless, he should be booted. He already has his forum. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
We would like knowledgeable people to contribute. The way to make sure they do that neutrally is to critique the content, not the contributor. Tom Harrison Talk 15:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Strange conduct by user Jasonstrayer
User:Jasonstrayer created Prisoner Dilemna Enhanced. User:BURNyA for obvious reasons tagged it db-nonsense, and so I deleted it. His reactions are in User talk:Anthony Appleyard#Deletion Of The Prisoner Dilemma Enhanced : Abuse Of Power, Report To Higher Power etseq. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Undelete/Prisoner_Dilemna_Enhanced note the two slightly different user names: both seem to be very new accounts: sockpuppeting? Anthony Appleyard 04:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes and no. These accounts are obviously held by the same person, but I doubt the second one was created in an attempt to dupe anyone or abuse multiple accounts. It could be that Strayer lost the password to one of the accounts and had to create a new one. As for the deleted article and repeated pleading, why not just provide the deleted text and tell him to work on it off-wiki? ˉˉanetode╦╩ 08:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I emailed a copy of it to him. Anthony Appleyard 13:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
RMS Titanic
The entire page of RMS Titanic. I believe to PROBABLY be(Im not sure with this history of an article thing, I've only been around as a big funtioning member of Wiki. for 4 months) User:Wildhartlivie. Check it out please. Im not accusing him, yet.Philippe Auguste 05:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I for the life of me can't figure out why nothing is showing up on the page. I've tried restoring the text, but I can't get it to show up. I think it's something in the embedded warning at the beginning. Some help, would be appreciated. AniMate 05:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Um... it still isn't showing up. AniMate 05:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Viewing old revisions of the page, it's all blank. I'll look through the templates that transclude onto the page and see if one of those was messed up. WODUP 05:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I get the blank page too, it'll show me diffs indicating changes but a blank page all the same. Anynobody 06:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
What the hell? Anyone workout what the problem is? ViridaeTalk 06:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- its the hidden text. i think its gotta go. it useful, but its hurting the article. nattang 06:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It's fixed... :-D nattang 06:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I couldn't view it, but now I can. Either it's fixed or the problem comes and goes. --Bongwarrior 06:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Gone again... --Bongwarrior 06:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I couldn't view it, but now I can. Either it's fixed or the problem comes and goes. --Bongwarrior 06:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't see it either, so I've removed the resolved banner. AniMate 06:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It appears to be intermittent. I saw the page normally not ten minutes ago. (I was looking at its logs and wondering why the article looked blank when its most current revision (10:52 PM PST today) showed a change). Could it be a bug with the article? -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Conflicted four times
- The source now shows nothing where the content should be. My version was also fine after a purge, but now it's broken. east.718 at 06:34, August 31, 2007
- I can frigging see it in its entirety! The frag?! -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 06:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Intermittent viewing. I don't have to change anything, just keep hitting the preview button. . .sometimes it shows up, sometimes it doesn't (exact same text each time). R. Baley 06:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC) addendum: same thing happens with version (05:46, 29 August 2007 Morhange) signed again R. Baley 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Main article page is working for me, but some of the recent versions show up as blank and then show up as the full article next time I look at them which is quite bizarre. Of all the pages to have a curse on it. Any tech-wise folks know what's up?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Intermittent viewing. I don't have to change anything, just keep hitting the preview button. . .sometimes it shows up, sometimes it doesn't (exact same text each time). R. Baley 06:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC) addendum: same thing happens with version (05:46, 29 August 2007 Morhange) signed again R. Baley 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It appears to be intermittent. I saw the page normally not ten minutes ago. (I was looking at its logs and wondering why the article looked blank when its most current revision (10:52 PM PST today) showed a change). Could it be a bug with the article? -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Conflicted four times
- I'm not using the history tab. I'm looking at the actual article page, and it's still here for me! This has to be a bug. -Jéské (v^_^v Kacheek!) 06:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm seeing it as well. The question is will anyone be able to see the article if someone tries to edit it again. AniMate 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dropped a line at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Occasional blank page at RMS Titanic. It's not a HTML bug because nothing is being rendered. {{otheruses4}} might be commenting out the entire pages but other pages with this template still work, so it's probably a server bug or something. x42bn6 Talk Mess 07:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm seeing it as well. The question is will anyone be able to see the article if someone tries to edit it again. AniMate 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It seems to work with decimal coordinates. Of course, it points to a blank spot in the ocean, so there are no relevant maps or aerial photos making the excercise rather pointless. Thatcher131 12:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, Philip(inthe short term I guess) SCREWED UP. I went to far ahead of my and made it sound like I was accussing him. Boy am I an idiot. Oh shame. To User:Wildhartlivie I am very sorry. And take back what I said earlier. I am VERY, very, very, very, sorry. If theres anything I can do to make it up to you, let me know. Sorry.Philippe Auguste 16:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Hungrywolf
I am not sure where to go at this point to resolve the issues I am having with Hungrywolf (talk · contribs). The user has been making false accusations against me, reverting my edits, and ignoring all discussion and third opinions. This is going on for over a week already. He has gone so far as to revert edits I've made on my own talk page, now making personal attacks "Let everyone see what u are". I need some serious administrative intervention here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Blackbeard2k7&diff=154749794&oldid=154746104 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackbeard2k7 (talk • contribs)
- Blocked for 72h because of edit warring at your talkpage especially that he was blocked before and that he has got many other warnings from admins. You are also blocked for 48h because you just came from a 24 block edit warring yesterday. You were both edit warring at M.U.L.E. today as well. Do not edit war whatever is the case. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 06:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The issue is not resolved. You lifted your 72h block against Hungrywolf, and he immediately continued to revert my edits, make false accusations against me, and is now Cyberstalking me, petitioning on other users talk pages claiming to have and offer personal information about me. I would not consider this resolved until the user is re-blocked for his obvious disruptive and uncivil behavior.Blackbeard2k7 16:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Deleted interwiki
Unregistered user, User:91.150.77.43 has deleted the interwiki on five articles, although that interwiki linked to existing articles on hr.wiki. Vandalizing edits were this [122], [123], [124], [125] and [126], all on the same day, 28 Aug 2007., in a short period of time, of eight minutes. That gives the idea that he edited Wikipedia for the sole reason of vandalising. Here's a list of his edits Special:Contributions/91.150.77.43. Kamarad Walter 07:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Seems like a run-of-the-mill POV warrior to me. I've reverted him for now, but didn't leave him a warning. east.718 at 07:28, August 31, 2007
An extra eye on this article would be nice. I had to go back around 30 revisions just to bring this page back to the disambig page that it was. Semi-protection, if for a little while, might also serve to improve the situation. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 08:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeesh. How did all that slip through? Agreed on the semiprotection, so, done. Neil ム 09:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was just as surprised. It had been mutilated into a whole mess of an article with images and a section noting the "creators" of the page. Thanks for the SP. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 09:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ugh! Same with the article red hair, which is a constant target of vandalism. I'm mystified as to why, though - Alison ☺ 12:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Biruitorul slander against those who don't agree with him
Is it normal for a user to call "not sane" people who don't agree with his political opinions, and call other's opinions "demented" diff? He also accuses me of "trying to impose this demented ideology" on wikipedia just because i don't agree with his POV in several related content disputes. I've already warned him about personal attacks some days ago(diff), but my warnings had no effect. Anonimu 11:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that that comment is unacceptable, but I'm looking though his recent contributions but I don't really see any more examples of this behavior. You seem to imply that this is an ongoing problem but I don't see any issues in the last 4-5 days worth of editing. Can you provide more diffs? Also, if this is regarding your long dispute with this user perhapses WP:DR would be a more fruitful way to deal with the real problem? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 12:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As an aside, I am tempted to author an essay entitled "On Wikipedia Communism is an article, not Evil!" although I realise it will be ignored by the intended audience... LessHeard vanU 12:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- He is generally more subtle, but he called my arguments (not only the ones related to the relevant article) "idiocy" just 6 days ago diff. Until now, his gravest personal attack was the one described in this ANI thread. However, he apologised for it on my talk page and i thought that ended it. But now he's starting again.Anonimu 12:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I still think this should be brought to dispute resolution. As for another (unrelated) issue... your talk-page "disclaimer" is ridicules and incivil. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 13:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- About my talk page: Until now, nobody could bring forward a policy that is broken by it. And don't worry, few guys, if any, respect the disclaimer.Anonimu 13:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- NO, that talk page is definitely a problem. the entire purpose of talk pages is to give other editors a way to communicate with you directly. You've chosen to not make that available. However, you should be aware that as far as AN/I and admins and so on are concerned, any removal/reversion of Talk page messages left for you, regardless of 'disclaimers', represents clear and distinct de facto 'awareness' of the message. It is assumed that you are aware of the content, and that general attitude here will never change. the attitude your talk displays and any subsequent claims of 'didn't you read my disclaimer, i don't read messages just revert', will be met with scorn and disbelief. If you want to be taken more seriously here on wikipedia, making your self accessible would be a great first step. ANd yeah, Dispute Resolution's down the hall. it's the one with the soundproof structure. ThuranX 13:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Before having this disclaimer, I was once blocked, and the blocking admin claimed in his motivation I was warned, even if no message had been posted of my talk page, i had no knowledge of the page where I was "warned", and, moreover, i was in a wikibreak during the "warning". Since that admin didn't give a damn about my unawarness of that "warning", I supposed nobody cares about where the warnign is put. So I decided to keep my page clean as a protest. If another editor wants to discuss an article, he should use the talk page of the article. Personal messages should be private, and that's why i made emailing available in my preferences.Anonimu 14:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- NO, that talk page is definitely a problem. the entire purpose of talk pages is to give other editors a way to communicate with you directly. You've chosen to not make that available. However, you should be aware that as far as AN/I and admins and so on are concerned, any removal/reversion of Talk page messages left for you, regardless of 'disclaimers', represents clear and distinct de facto 'awareness' of the message. It is assumed that you are aware of the content, and that general attitude here will never change. the attitude your talk displays and any subsequent claims of 'didn't you read my disclaimer, i don't read messages just revert', will be met with scorn and disbelief. If you want to be taken more seriously here on wikipedia, making your self accessible would be a great first step. ANd yeah, Dispute Resolution's down the hall. it's the one with the soundproof structure. ThuranX 13:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- He is generally more subtle, but he called my arguments (not only the ones related to the relevant article) "idiocy" just 6 days ago diff. Until now, his gravest personal attack was the one described in this ANI thread. However, he apologised for it on my talk page and i thought that ended it. But now he's starting again.Anonimu 12:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- As an aside, I am tempted to author an essay entitled "On Wikipedia Communism is an article, not Evil!" although I realise it will be ignored by the intended audience... LessHeard vanU 12:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, your usr talk is where all warnings and such will be going, no matter what you say. If you choose to delete them, admins will consider that reciept of warning, and proceed accordingly. Repeated blanking of warnings, then disavowal of awareness is considered especially bad form. I don't recommend you continue on this course. And your above explanation isn't too far from a WP:POINT violation. ThuranX 14:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's making a rather sour point, but it's not a WP:POINT (i.e., it's not particularly disruptive). Removing messages left on your talk page is fine; it indicates you have read them, and they always remain visible in the history (which is why we should all use edit summaries). I haven't seen any occasion of Anonimu disavowing a warning after he received one. Neil ム 14:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying he has, but I'm just making clear to him the purpose of Talk pages, and it does read as sort of hostile and point-y to me. YMMV, i suppose. ThuranX 14:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I find that his signature, [[User:Anonimu|A]][[Special:Mypage|nonimu]], is more annoying than his talk page. Getting sent to my user page is not what I expected. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually your page is much more interesting. But if someone would explicitly ask me to change my sig, I'd do it. (Which is not the case for my talk page) Anonimu 17:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then please change your signature. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 17:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually your page is much more interesting. But if someone would explicitly ask me to change my sig, I'd do it. (Which is not the case for my talk page) Anonimu 17:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
IP Vandalism on this page
We have had a series of problems with an unknown editor which is using various IP's (usually in the 6's, though the last edit was in the 7 range) adding the following to the Talk:Miley Cyrus page (which is already protected)...
- "I bet every inch of Miley Cyrus tastes like candy"
Is it possible the user is operating as a sockpuppet master? WAVY 10 12:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Revert, block, ignore... rinse and repeat as necessary. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 12:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not that important, but I seem to remember that form of words "...like candy" coming up at a previous noticeboard. Sockpuppetry or returning vandal, I concur with WRE. LessHeard vanU 12:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Revert, block, ignore... rinse and repeat as necessary. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 12:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've got you now. The only reason I brought it up here was that this was continuous vandalism. WAVY 10 13:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- EVula has blocked the address. They requested an unblock. Want to guess what the unblock reason was? LessHeard vanU 13:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- See comment in quotes for my guess. WAVY 10 13:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- You win a stick of candy. LessHeard vanU 14:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- See comment in quotes for my guess. WAVY 10 13:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- EVula has blocked the address. They requested an unblock. Want to guess what the unblock reason was? LessHeard vanU 13:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've got you now. The only reason I brought it up here was that this was continuous vandalism. WAVY 10 13:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a little too early, and I'm not thinking clearly enough to figure out exactly what's going on here...or if any Admin interaction is even necessary.
I noticed a strange undo while recent change patrolling. A couple of names seemed very similar.
Sole dart (talk · contribs) was created in June. Dole Sart (talk · contribs) was created in August.
Both seem to be SPA's related to Northwich Victoria F.C.. It appears most of their edit histories have been reverting each other, or each other's IP's, for the last month.
CVNF (talk · contribs), Ram4eva (talk · contribs), and Eir Witt (talk · contribs) may also be involved according to the sockpuppet tags being placed. --Onorem♠Dil 12:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dole and Sole are socks of Eir Witt, I'd wager. CVNF and ram4Eva look like editors Eir Witt decided to go after. ThuranX 13:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I am Dole Sart, a name deliberately like Sole Dart to draw attention to it. The pages I edit were evidently created by Eir Witt's puppets. As blocking him has no effect, I decided to irritate him. Admittedly the Northwich vics page has nothing wrong with it, but I don't see why a sock puppet should have pages for his convenience. The VICS page is incorrect as VICS is not an abbreviation of Northwich Victoria FC.
I am actually a regular editor who returned to Wikipedia earlier this year, having had a break sick of comments left on my page. Having seen how ram4Eva was treated I decided to keep an eye on the Northwich Victoria, Witton Albion, Jon McCarthy etc pages. By his own admission the vandal attacks other pages(see User:Tricky Victoria). Not wanting to suffer vandalism to my 'real' account, I created this account to protect myself. As you can see I do not edit elsewhere with it. He seems to think I am ram4Eva, maybe anybody who stands up to him gets called ram4Eva's sock puppet. Feel free to block this account and Sole Dart, but blocking him has no effect so the pages ought to be protected. My account has now achieved its aim. Dole Sart 15:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Admin User:Hu12 accusing me of 'personal attacks against policy'
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Taken to WP:MFD#User:Italiavivi -- Avi 16:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If an editor is to be accused of "personal attacks," one would think it would be required of them to insult or disparage a person. I would like clarification here -- if I criticize Wikipedia policy, is an administrator within his rights to characterize me as engaging in "personal attacks"? Can I really not use my userpage to criticize policy (or what I perceive to have been the uneven application of policy), as User:Hu12 suggests?
This is not the first time Hu12 has come into conflict with me. Ever since a disagreement over an AfD and the removal of some links, Hu12 has been especially aggressive toward me to he point of biting my head off. He has suggested that I "enjoy conflict," but then follows me around and creates conflicts such as the listed MfD. I honestly question if Hu12 has completely abandoned WP:AGF in his interactions with me, and is trying drive me off the project or something. Italiavivi 14:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- While I don't think that it falls under a "personal attack" per se, I would agree that the text is rather disruptive; to me, at least, it looks like you are using it as a soapbox to attack policy, which, as Hu12 said, is forbidden. Veinor (talk to me) 15:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- If it falls under personal attack per anything, se or otherwise, I invite you to point out how. I must have missed where criticizing policy is userspace is forbidden. Italiavivi 15:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it is forbidden, however the content of your userspace is there at the consent of the community, so the MfD is the valid way to go if someone disagrees strongly with the content. Also there are some other issues raised in the MfD. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 15:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe that user space works that way. Policy-abiding content is allowed to exist in User space regardless of community favor for or against it. Wikipedia articles and policies are certainly crafted through consensus, but the community cannot arbitrarily remove policy-abiding content on a page-by-page basis at a democratic whim. Italiavivi 15:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am basing that off of WP:USER which says "If the community lets you know that they would rather you delete some content from your user space, you should consider doing so — such content is only permitted with the consent of the community." ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 16:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it is forbidden, however the content of your userspace is there at the consent of the community, so the MfD is the valid way to go if someone disagrees strongly with the content. Also there are some other issues raised in the MfD. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 15:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- If it falls under personal attack per anything, se or otherwise, I invite you to point out how. I must have missed where criticizing policy is userspace is forbidden. Italiavivi 15:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think a personal attack does require a person. Taking a contrary point of view on policy is not in itself a personal attack. I may be missing some small thing, but I don't see it. There are however other issues being brought up in the MfD which may have more basis. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 15:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wait. Attcking policy is against policy? Which policy is that? Corvus cornix 16:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, this is an issue for MfD, not here. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 16:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because User:Hu12 has been following me around with a cloud of bad faith ever since an AfD we disagreed on, making it impossible for me to avoid his mini-conflicts. He has falsely accused me of "personal attacks," and I wish for intervention against his new focus on me. Italiavivi 18:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain to Goethean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) how these contributions: [127][128][129][130][131] to what is otherwise a civil discussion are in violation of AGF, CIV, NPA, and treading into WP:HARASS? He clearly intends to continue to rub the CU thing in my face whenever he sees an opportunity, even though I removed any reference to that web site from my user page a while back. (See last diff, where he drags it out of my user page edit history, after he was encouraged by Gamaliel to be a little more respectful). I would request the deletion of my user page and then recreate it to avoid these incidents, but then he would likely start posting diffs out of the history of my RfA. I no longer wish to associate with that website on-wiki. I have made very few contributions there in the past months, and have committed most of my online time to Wikipedia. I shouldn't have to tolerate these constant cheap shots. - Crockspot 15:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC) - User notified of this incident report. - Crockspot 15:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain once again to RJ CG whether it is appropriate to use edit summaries such as "I feel for fragile state of your brain, but either explain your reverts or seek professional help. WP isn't shrink office." [132] or comments like "sickness of your nightmares and is more of your problem" [133]? Sander Säde 15:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I left this message regarding the concerns raised here.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 16:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Despite having been blocked several times in the past for editing other's comments, he continues to do so
Examples: [134], [135], [136], [137], [138], [139], [140], [141], [142], [143]
These are just some of the examples from the past two weeks alone. Here's one from a little earlier where he completely deleted someone's comment.
When confronted about this on his talk page, he responded disrespectfully to the user's request.
I hate to be a tattletale, but his edits are becoming disruptive. For example, on Marie-Louise Meilleur, he continues to revert my attempts to format her lifespan per WP:DATE, claiming that he doesn't need to follow the MoS. I'm not exactly 100% sure whether he's right or not, but it was my impression that WP:DATE should be followed unless there is an exceptional circumstance. I cannot even fix it today, because I'd be in violation of the 3RR. Cheers, CP 16:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe someone can try being Bart's mentor? I've tried to do so in a sort of unofficial manner for the last few months (search his talk page archive for my name to see our many discussions), but I don't seem to have really gotten through, since the editing-others'-comments problem has come up again. Ideally, if there's an experienced editor out there who's fluent in Dutch, I think mentoring could make a big difference, as Bart is clearly a productive editor, just one with issues surrounding following the rules/observing good Wikiquette. Pinball22 17:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Repeated Vandalism and page blanking
By IP 198.61.20.129]. Please block IP from further vandalism and account creation. See here Thanks Taprobanus 17:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- *COUGH* HalfShadow 17:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Chrisjnelson
I've blocked User:Chrisjnelson for 24 hours for continued incivility. I have tried to ask to stop, but he doesn't really care. An outside admin might like to look at his talkpage, and possibly look at his unblock requests. Maxim(talk) 17:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism at AfD
I've nommed an article, some guy doesn't like it so he keeps doing this- [144][145][146]. Help! Bravedog 17:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Doesn't really look like vandalism. It looks more like a bad faith nomination. Maybe you shouldn't nominate the articles of obviously notable people for deletion. --Onorem♠Dil 17:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not a civil user either [147], afding Jimmy Wales is not in good faith and the afd was closed as a rapid keep. Not the first time this user hasd done this. I explained to them that we cant be wasting editors time on an afd on a narticle that wont have a chance of being deleetd, SqueakBox 17:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- AFD was speedy closed.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 17:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not a civil user either [147], afding Jimmy Wales is not in good faith and the afd was closed as a rapid keep. Not the first time this user hasd done this. I explained to them that we cant be wasting editors time on an afd on a narticle that wont have a chance of being deleetd, SqueakBox 17:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:POINT edits disrupting AfD
Burgas00 has twice edited this entry ([148],[149]) to make some sort of WP:POINT, which thus far has mislead at least one editor on the AfD. Considering his block log and history of disruption, I'm not quite sure of how to get him to stop this behaviour, much less of how to make him appreciate why it is wrong. Perhaps someone has an idea? TewfikTalk 18:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Come now, Tewfik, he's trying to edit the article to make it more accurately and honestly reflect its subject matter. Feel free to note at the AfD debate that the original nominated version didn't say this - put an addendum to my nomination of you like. But don't label everything that makes you mad as WP:POINT (the most worthless and overused epithet on the site after WP:SOAPBOX). Eleland 18:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)