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Whatever else comes of this, {{user5|Domer48}} has been blocked by me - for the lesser of 31 hours or until he apologises - for repeatedly referring to another editor as a liar. [[User:Angusmclellan|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan|(Talk)]] 16:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC) |
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Whatever else comes of this, {{user5|Domer48}} has been blocked by me - for the lesser of 31 hours or until he apologises - for repeatedly referring to another editor as a liar. [[User:Angusmclellan|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan|(Talk)]] 16:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC) |
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:Agree with GRBerry, the article mentors should act on this. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Rlevse|<span style="color:#060;">'''''R''levse'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 13:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC) |
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={{anchor|restoc}}Resolved= |
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={{anchor|restoc}}Resolved= |
Edit this section for new requests
Per remedy #1 from this case - All content reversions on this page must be discussed on the article talk page.
After much misrepresentation of sources and/or original research originally added in this edit by Colin4C, today Colin4C sourced a sentence of previously disputed sourcing with this edit. After reading the source, I saw that it clearly did not source the text that was in the sentence in question. I explained this fully with this edit to the talk page, saying exactly what the source now cited in the aticle actually said, in comparison to the actual text of the article, and invited discussion regarding any possible problems with the wording. I then edited the article, to make the text accurately reflect what the source said, and not original research or other unsourced opinion.
Without any discussion on the talk page, Wotapalaver reverted me, thereby adding original research or other unsourced opinion in the process. In the edit summary (which is obviously not the same as discussion on the article talk page) he stated "Since she died in 1977 it's incorrect to quote her as if reflecting today's view", which was repeated with his first post to the talk page regarding the revert two hours later. However, this is nonsensical as the sentence Wotapalver was reverting to was "The famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British government, whom many blamed — then and now — for the starvation of so many people", which contains the phrase "then and now" which obviously presents the view as today's view. Therefore the only possible justification presented for the revert is now null and void.
Despite this Colin4C reverted the edit, thereby adding original research or other unsourced opinion in the process, and has yet to make any attempt to discuss his edit on the talk page.
My original edit was not a revert to any previous version, it was accurately citing a source, unlike the original research laden version reverted to without discussion by Colin4C and Wotapalver. Thanks. Domer48 (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notified the three article mentors of this thread. GRBerry 04:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Domer48 inserted text which used an author who has been dead since 1977 and whose book was written in 1962 or so, as a source to describe TODAY'S feeling about the famine. As a source for today she's either 31 or ~45 years out-of-date. The edit he made [1] says clearly "She says that it is the terrible years of “the Great Hunger” which are remembered and she suggests only just beginning to be forgiven." Remember, this woman has been dead since 1977 and wrote those words in the early 1960's so this is factually wrong. She doesn't say anything anymore. There was no date attached, nor any caveat about how this quote as as contemporary as quoting Eden about modern British Foreign Policy. Domer48 is engaged in a campaign of disruption on the article and has been using various tactics to try to own the article. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This seems to me to be the ultimate storm in the teacup. The Woodham-Smith source supports the original text that the famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British Government. There is no great original research mystery about this or any other controversy. I just thought that Domer's reformulation was very clumsy. Compare:
- Original: "The famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British government, whom many blamed — then and now — for the starvation of so many people".
- The Domer Version: "According to Cecil Woodham-Smith the famine left hatred behind between both Ireland and England because of the memory of what was done and endured. She says that it is the terrible years of “the Great Hunger” which are remembered and she suggests only just beginning to be forgiven."
IMHO Domer's version makes it appear that Woodham-Smith was just expressing her personal opinion on the matter, whereas in reality the dire effect of the Famine on Anglo-Irish relationships is common knowledge. Also Domer's second sentence has a very contorted syntax and is hardly grammatical at all. Anyway, I leave it up to the sage judgement of other editors as to which version they prefer. Colin4C (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One other thing..the reversion WAS discussed on the article talk page. So far my last comment on the talk page is the last comment there. So far Domer48, nor anyone else, has managed to say WHY he should quote long dead authors as if they were alive today. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you can explain how the same author can be used to source a sentence containing the phrase "then and now", which is in the original research laden version you and Colin4C reverted to without discussion? Domer48 (talk) 12:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Domer48 is - again - forum shopping since he doesn't get his way on the article page itself. The previous text can easily be sourced from multiple sources because it's describing facts that are very well known and entirely uncontroversial (and not even Domer48 is even disputing the facts). If additional references is the concern then there's no problem and Domer48 could provide them himself if he had any interested in improving the article. Unfortunately, it isn't what Domer48 is worried about. He's worried about his ownership of the article being "challenged". His tactics to enforce his ownership have ranged from blanking, reverting, insulting, to now putting in edits which are (inaccurate) block quotes from authors he likes. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As the diffs show, you made no attempt to discuss the revert before making it and your first post on the talk page was two hours later. Colin4C has not made any post on the talk page to discuss his revert. Domer48 (talk) 12:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Per remedy #1 from this case - All content reversions on this page must be discussed on the article talk page. It is being discussed on the talk page. So far no good argument has been presented against it. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever else comes of this, Domer48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been blocked by me - for the lesser of 31 hours or until he apologises - for repeatedly referring to another editor as a liar. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with GRBerry, the article mentors should act on this. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
- The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
- Alansohn was blocked, and then following assurances was unblocked. PhilKnight (talk) 12:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom decision: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes#Alansohn restricted. "Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be briefly blocked..."
Violation diff here.
- Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce" -- claiming that my edits are arbitrary, despite vast amounts of discussion in which I have justified my edits.
- Assumption of bad faith: "repeated good faith edits to expand and source these articles were used as an excuse to initiate the litigation" -- claiming I used "an excuse" to initiate litigation.
RedSpruce (talk) 13:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Volation diff # 2:
- Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles..." -- false and unsupported accusation that I claim ownership of articles.
RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been following this, and I think RedSpruce's behaviour needs to improve as well. Some of the edits made by RedSpruce have been wholesale reverts. I'm not saying Alansohn's behaviour is excusable, merely that there is more than one side to this and, eventually, something will need to be done about RedSpruce's behaviour. RedSpruce has said: "Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort, because I know that my time and effort will just be undone by a revert." This attitude of reverting the good with the bad (especially when the "bad" is debatable - the arbcom case, quite rightly, did not deliver a verdict on that) is not acceptable for a collaborative editing environment. RedSpruce, if you want others to work with you, you have to hold yourself to the high standards you expect of others. Carcharoth (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Carcharoth, the ArbCom restriction was against Alansohn, not me. If you think that decision was in error, take it up with them. RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The same Arbcom case found that RedSpruce calling me an "idiot" and a "moron" was not uncivil. Any incivility by anyone else has to be measured by that yardstick from now on. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- User:RedSpruce has finally come clean and admitted that "Alansohn and Richard Arthur Norton have made quite a few valid and worthwhile edits to the articles in question.... Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort." (see here). I and other editors have made repeated edits to expand, improve and source the articles in question; User:RedSpruce has in turn simply reverted the changes, with edit summary justifications rationalizations of "rv; see endless discussion elsewhere", "restoring to better version", "rv for the usual reasons", just plain "rv" and no other explanation", no explanation at all, and my personal favorite RV to version _I_ choose to call "stable". RedSpruce has cynically abused Wikipedia process to enforce his ownership of these articles, and he's back at it again. RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles and shrill complaints that it's everybody else's fault. It's time to deal with User:RedSpruce once and for all. Alansohn (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All one has to do is look at User:RedSpruce's first claim to see that he is trying to game the system - Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce". It is RedSpruce himself who has clearly acknowledged that he can't be bothered to pick out what he admits are "good edits" from the ones he has decided as "garbage edits". All of his edits to the articles in question over the past month have reverted back to "his" version of the articles, regardless of the quality of changes made by any other editor. This is the very definition of the word "arbitrary". The word "his" has been placed in quotations to demonstrate that RedSpruce has shown no willingness to find any edit as acceptable; every single edit has been reverted by RedSpruce back to "his" version, the very definition of taking WP:OWNership of an article. Alansohn (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For violating the restrictions of the footnotes case, specifically harassment, trolling, and bad faith at [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], I have blocked him for 31 hours and added it to the case block summary. MBisanz talk 03:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Does this board really ignore the other side of a dispute when that side is not the subject of an ArbCom remedy? That seems a remarkably bureaucratic way of doing things. I will leave a warning for RedSpruce in any case, even though that is not related to arbitration enforcement. Carcharoth (talk) 07:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well if one has broken a policy or done something wrong, then we call him out on it, warn, then block, if the subject has additionally been sanctioned by Arbcom, then that leash of what is acceptable behavior is even shorter. In any event, I think there is an ANI thread addressing RedSpruce's actions, and this thread addressing Alansohn, each in its proper place, I was dealing with this one and and not that one. MBisanz talk 07:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have more concerns than this though. I've been reading through the edits you provided to justify your block. In general, providing a long list of "breaches" and a laundry list of charges "harassment, trolling, and bad faith" is not helpful. What would be better is to say specifically what you find problematic about each edit. In particular, which ones are trolling, which are harassment and which are bad faith? I read those edits, and I don't see the problems you describe. I see someone raising issues that need to be discussed, not brushed under the carpet. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, lets do this the long way
Alansohn and Rlevse disagreed on the content of an article, they brought the dispute to Arbcom as part of the Footnoted quotes matter, Rlevse and Alansohn presented evidence indicating the other person had violated various policies in their edits. Arbcom found that Alansohn's overall conduct violated policy. As a result, it issued special sanctions on him.
Within hours of the case closing, he was accusing Rlevse abusing BLP], posting a case study railing at Rlevse at an unrelated page, reposting another summary of his issue with Rlevse at the same unrelated page. When questioned on why he is reposting the same matter, he responds that it may continue until the article is changed. Then brings it up a third time at the unrelated page in an unrelated thread], additionally, he reinserted himself in the debate at Rlevse's talk page, citing the same evidence he had at the arbcom in subsequent posts to the user talk page and assuming further bad faith to Rlevse's actions.
To me this is trolling a dead issue and harassing Rlevse by continuing to dredge up a dead issue at his talk page, while assuming bad faith. I'll note another admin does not disagree with this block, and given the short leash Arbcom placed him on, I feel it was entirely warranted. MBisanz talk 08:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The point here is that, if you strip away the excess, I agree with Alansohn's basic arguments here. If I chose to engage with this issue at Talk:George Thomas Coker and discuss it with Rlevse, will I be accused of trolling and continuing the dispute? This is why accusations of trolling are rarely helpful. It is incredibly hard to refute a vague accusation of trolling. This is also why blocks such as the one you have made can have a chilling effect. Your block will not only prevent Alansohn from presenting his arguments (any time he tries to talk on the issue now, he can be accused of trolling and harassment) but it will discourage others. Thus the block does nothing to resolve the underlying problems. You are treating the symptoms, not the cause. Carcharoth (talk) 09:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We have so many places to resolve content disputes, RFC, 3O, Mediation, etc, Alansohn is experienced enough to know about them and to know that shouting about it and the people he is disputing the content with on random pages until someone listens is not the way to solve content disputes. MBisanz talk 09:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Permit me to also add that Alansohn's last "engagement" at the article talk page was May 4th [12], Rlevse responded [13] and Alansohn never answered him, hardly what I would call good faith engagement in trying to solve a content dispute. MBisanz talk 09:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is stretching. The offer by Rlevse is troubling enough in that he sets up admins to resolve a content dispute. He should have centred the offer on editors, regardless of whether they were admins or not. I'm not surprised Alansohn didn't take the offer seriously. Carcharoth (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MBisanz. How about I make an edit to Talk:George Thomas Coker to indicate that Alansohn has made some valid points and that his block does not negate those points, and that the underlying cause of the dispute remains unresolved? Whether Rlevse still remains involved is up to him, but I would suggest that both he and Alansohn let others resolve this. Carcharoth (talk) 09:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The block could be longer given that parties are strictly expected to comply with arbitration rulings - he's made no assurance that he will. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you point me to where it is said that editors under arbcom restrictions can be blocked for not making assurances that they will comply with the restrictions? That seems to be asking people to say something, and then judging them by what they don't say, rather than what they do. It is only fair to judge people by their actions, and not what they fail to say. I will also point out: "...he may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month." - please don't extend the block to a week, especially given that the initial block is disputed. Leave it at that, and see how things go later. And note that the maximum block is a month. More than that would have to be done outside the remedy and outside arbitration enforcement. Carcharoth (talk) 10:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had 72 hours in mind to prevent him from continuing in the next couple of days - his actions speak loud and clear and I see nothing to suggest he'll stop. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that RedSpruce's behavior has been questionable here. However Alansohn is not helping his case with his reactions and edit summaries. If he can moderate his own behavior, and just present his concerns in a calm and civil way, I'd say let him back. If each time we unblock him though, he just resumes spouting off in an uncivil manner, then I think a longer block might be appropriate, while we ask him, "Will you comply with ArbCom restrictions?" If he gives his word to moderate his own behavior, then the block can be lifted early. If not, the block should be left in place. --Elonka 16:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a note that I have no problems with other admins tinkering with my admin actions, so if someone wants to undo, lengthen, shorten or change the terms of the block, its fine by me. I do like the idea of asking him if he'll comply with Arbcom Elonka MBisanz talk 16:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed, someone should ask. With all the talk about longer blocks, please don't forget my point above that the remedy doesn't allow for blocks under this remedy to be longer than a week, then the maximum later increases to a month. I suspect that is also put in place to stop people running to the community or arbcom for a longer block or ban or change of the remedy. Let's try and run the gamut of option in the remedy before going further. Carcharoth (talk) 17:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoever asks will do well to unprotect Alansohn's talk page, which was fully protected (unnecessarily, IMHO) upon Alansohn's using his talk page to work on (wholly uncontroversial) content to be migrated later into mainspace (difficult to miss the {{pp-usertalk}}, I know, but I leave a note in any case, lest someone should be irked by A's failing to reply to a query about his willingness to comply with the ArbCom restrictions). Joe 18:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alansohn's talk page has been unprotected. PhilKnight (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, I have no idea why it was protected, he was doing what {{2nd chance}} encourages blocked people to do. MBisanz talk 20:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In view of this response I think the point has been taken; any objection to him being unblocked?. TerriersFan (talk) 21:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have asked him for one further clarification (about whether he would be willing to "wipe the slate clean" and let go of old disputes), but that's a minor point. If some other admin feels that his first response[14] is sufficient, then I would agree with an unblock. --Elonka 23:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice job by El. I have unblocked him because, from the responses, it seems that the point has been made. I hope that Alansohn realises that this is the time for a fresh start all round and that, in future, he will use dispute resolution procedures. If he fails so to do then in the event of a future infraction of policies a lengthier ban will follow. Having said that, any provocative behaviour towards him will also be firmly dealt with. TerriersFan (talk) 00:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. Nice job, though the page protection could have been handled better - if it hadn't been lifted, then things could have got worse, not better. I also endorse the need to deal firmly with provocative behaviour, but would ask that anyone that appears to be acting provocatively should be warned first. Let's hope everyone can move on from this. Carcharoth (talk) 01:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed - nice job. This matter is resolved, until or unless the misconduct resumes. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.