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I'm aware of much discussion about how wikipedia handles biographies, but haven't been able to find a concrete proposal.. so I started one! (click above). All thoughts most welcome - the other area I feel this is being most clearly discussed in currently is User:Doc_glasgow/The_BLP_problem... Privatemusings (talk) 01:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
There's a bunch of related discussion to a parallel proposal to Semi Protect all biographies at WT:BLP as well... Privatemusings (talk) 05:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's a bit thin on the ground and I can foresee problems with verifying the RL identity of BLP subjects in a reliable yet confidential manner, but there's nothing that cannot be resolved with a bit of effort. I think this is an excellent start! - Alison ❤ 06:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- And that is those in a position to approach the foundation. People in jail or without English skills would be at a disadvanmtage. Thanks, SqueakBox 06:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Currently there is nothing you can do, making it possible is a step forward, its more than it was before. People in jail/that can't speak english well can't do anything now either :) (in fact even less, the english speakers can at least rail against the injustice of it all etc o.O) I think this option (if coupled with a solid way to validate identities) would be a step forward on the touchy subject of BLP's.195.216.82.210 (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Strongly disagree with this policy. First of all, Doc seems to take a rather extreme viewpoint on BLPs. His essays do not necessarily reflect the broader view of the editors and seems to be euro-centric in their legal reasoning. Like WP:BADSITES we are once again considering censorship in the pursuit of making some individual feel good or to right some perceived wrong. Quite frankly, we don't need more rules to cover ones we already have. Either there are facts to make a decent article or there aren't. It isn't our business to judge what is right or wrong - we are neutral - so we should simply present the facts and let the chips fall where they may. If they want someone to coddle them, then go find a therapist or hire a PR firm. Or even better yet, provide better sourced material for their article while keeping their contributions within the scope of WP:COI. It is not our job to make them look good or feel good, no matter what their circumstance. WP:NPOV must be adhered to, which means we don't take side for or against said subject. Meanwhile, we should not allow them to opt out because they want to. People don't get to opt out of news coverage, it should be no different here. Wikipedia is covered under US laws, so your overly-lawyerly EU libel laws do not apply. It is well established case law that the 1ST Amendment provides the publisher with the right to publish accurate information, no matter how insignificant you may feel it is. Again, if there are facts to justify a decent article and the subject doesn't want it, well that is just too bad. We don't operate based on feelings of WP:IDONTLIKE. The only sticking point is we get the facts right and not allow opinion or emotions to interfere with our editing. --Dragon695 (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Dragon. It violates NPOV, which is not an optional policy. It also takes content decisions out of the hands of the communities consensus, and outsources it to a person with a clear conflict of interest. The proposal even states that it cannot be appealed via DRV. (1 == 2)Until 18:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Really not a fan of this idea. Really, what someone thinks should have no bearing on our content; it's not their call. If they don't pass our notability guidelines, it's because of our guidelines, not because of their opinion. Like 1==2 said, the community has the final say in such matters, not the subject. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support. All these untended BLPs on marginally notable individuals are like ticking bombs scattered throughout the project. It's only a matter of time until a disgruntled ex-spouse or business competitor trips the fuse on one, and it blows up in our faces. We can't let George W. Bush opt out, obviously, but obscure people should be allowed to have their articles deleted as a courtesy. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. If their obscure, then their not notable. If they are notable, we should have an article on them. Look at WT:OptOut for a much more extensive reasoning of why this is a Bad Idea. MBisanz talk 18:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. without NPOV why should we bother working here? if we wanted to work on doing PR, there are paid jobs available. The net result of this criterion is to let anyone other than a politician remove any article about them they dislike seeing. The provision was for obscure, it was for anyone. DGG (talk) 01:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- What alternative are you proposing? Everyone conveniently forgets that doing no harm is a fundamental pillar, merely because Google have abandoned it (as a money making company they had to) does not excuse us for abandoning it via wikilawyering, what I see is lots of excuses for wikipedian teenagers to trash whoever they want with not only impunity but our support, and that is so far from our original goal. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have put up the proposal Wikipedia:BLP subject response which will allow the subjects of BLPs to respond to the biography. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about people AfD the articles they think should be deleted. Even the subject of the article can do that. just send them a link to the AfD instructions. (1 == 2)Until 15:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Unacceptable
Includes 2 FAs! Sceptre (talk) 21:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- We shouldn't have articles about controversies? --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 21:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also fail to see the problem with having the word "controversy" in an article title. Things are controversial. WP:NPOV requires that we cover them neutrally, not that we whitewash the issue. Rossami (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- My thoughts. At the risk of sounding naive, what is wrong with articles such as Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy or NSA warrantless surveillance controversy? Should we rename to "dispute"? Does that make it better? Perhaps if you could be more specific. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 21:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Aside from the comments above about it being okay to use the word "Controversy" in articles, some of them do appear to be forks. Global Warming controversy, Thiomersal controversy, Stem cell controversy, Scientology controversies, etc. off the first page of results jump out at me as being possible forks... --Bobblehead (rants) 21:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ding ding ding ding. Sceptre (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- My interpretation of WP:FORK is that the four articles bobblehead listed above are probably legitimate examples of spinoff articles. It isn't wrong to have articles about controversies if their inclusion on the main article page would overwhelm the article. The controversy would need to be notable in its own right, but those four seem to easily meet that hurdle. The trick is making sure the article about the controversy stays NPOV. (No opinion on all the articles that come up in the Google search; undoubtable some of them are POV forks). That is a good list of articles to keep an eye on, but I don't think it's a list of mostly unacceptable articles. --barneca (talk) 22:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with general "controversy" articles is that by and large they are used by editors to shuffle controversies off the main article and into the controversy article, generally with a comment along the lines of "We have a whole article for these, moving to subpage", while the controversy articles themselves become cesspools for every minor controversy about the subject of the main article regardless of the proper weight the controversy deserves. I've been involved in the dismantling of a number of "controversy" articles and have yet to find one that "overwhelmed the main article" with its content. Particularly given that many pages have sub-articles into which "minor" controversies can be added, leaving the "major" controversies to be interleaved into the existing prose of the main article.--Bobblehead (rants) 22:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is true, and this nuanced approach is far superior to Sceptre's renaming of the articles under clumsy titles, no offence intended. Carcharoth (talk) 22:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. In the case of general controversy articles... A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet... --Bobblehead (rants) 22:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is true, and this nuanced approach is far superior to Sceptre's renaming of the articles under clumsy titles, no offence intended. Carcharoth (talk) 22:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with general "controversy" articles is that by and large they are used by editors to shuffle controversies off the main article and into the controversy article, generally with a comment along the lines of "We have a whole article for these, moving to subpage", while the controversy articles themselves become cesspools for every minor controversy about the subject of the main article regardless of the proper weight the controversy deserves. I've been involved in the dismantling of a number of "controversy" articles and have yet to find one that "overwhelmed the main article" with its content. Particularly given that many pages have sub-articles into which "minor" controversies can be added, leaving the "major" controversies to be interleaved into the existing prose of the main article.--Bobblehead (rants) 22:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- My interpretation of WP:FORK is that the four articles bobblehead listed above are probably legitimate examples of spinoff articles. It isn't wrong to have articles about controversies if their inclusion on the main article page would overwhelm the article. The controversy would need to be notable in its own right, but those four seem to easily meet that hurdle. The trick is making sure the article about the controversy stays NPOV. (No opinion on all the articles that come up in the Google search; undoubtable some of them are POV forks). That is a good list of articles to keep an eye on, but I don't think it's a list of mostly unacceptable articles. --barneca (talk) 22:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ding ding ding ding. Sceptre (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Aside from the comments above about it being okay to use the word "Controversy" in articles, some of them do appear to be forks. Global Warming controversy, Thiomersal controversy, Stem cell controversy, Scientology controversies, etc. off the first page of results jump out at me as being possible forks... --Bobblehead (rants) 21:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- My thoughts. At the risk of sounding naive, what is wrong with articles such as Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy or NSA warrantless surveillance controversy? Should we rename to "dispute"? Does that make it better? Perhaps if you could be more specific. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 21:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
(N.B. The 2 featured articles referenced are Boy Scouts of America membership controversies and 1996 United States campaign finance controversy.) --Ali'i 21:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- In general, it's better to treat stand-alone controversies as separate articles rather than overwhelm the articles on the participants or concepts involved. That's particularly true in cases involving living people who may be otherwise non-notable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with articles with "controversy" in the name, as long as a) there's a summary in the "main" article; b) the controversy article is linked to in the main article with {{main}}; c) the conditions demarcated on Wikipedia:Summary style are met; d) the summary and the controversy subarticle remain neutral, etc, etc. And why is this on AN? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 22:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sceptre doesn't mention that he's on a campaign to move these articles to other names, without any talk page discussion or even consensus here. I urge him to use the talk pages to discuss this with the editors of the articles rather than to unilaterally decide what the best names for these articles are.
- Moved "Boy Scouts of America membership controversies" to "Boy Scouts of America restricted membership public debate"
- Moved "Video game controversy" to "Video game explicitness debate"
I dispute the premise that "'controversy' is a POV term". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's never used legitimately though. It's nearly always used to say that one side in the dispute is invariably wrong (the BSA case might just be a legitimate use, but many others fall way clear from the mark) and thus fails NPOV. I don't need to have consensus or discussion to enforce that policy. Sceptre (talk) 22:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- You do need a consensus that you are enforcing policy, rather than just enforcing your opinion. (I have no opinion on this yet). Carcharoth (talk) 22:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- You are expected to listen to others when then disagree with your interpretation of what is or is not neutral however. Though I agree "controversy" can be misused, I also believe there are many cases where "controversy" is simply a factual description of events and both sides recognize the existence of a "controversy". I think you are painting with a broad brush where individual discussion would more generally be useful. Dragons flight (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c) Unless people dispute that it fails the policy, in which case you should discuss and get consensus. If everyone thought they could do whatever they want without discussion because policy was on their side, this place would be even more chaotic than it is. Those page moves seem odd, and phrased awkwardly, and in no way that I can see linked to fixing NPOV. --barneca (talk) 22:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. Controversy is a perfectly suitable word. To quote the dictionary "a dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views". Recognizing that there is a dispute is hardly a violation of NPOV. Changing the titles to debate ignores the fact that these were acrimonious issues. --Bfigura (talk) 22:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's worth distinguishing "controvery", the noun, from "controversial" the adjective. "Controversy" is a fine term and is often the most neutral and accurate word to describe a major disagreement that involves numeorus parties. "Debate", by comparison, implies a more limited disagreement that is carried out in a defined manner between few individuals. "Controverisal", can be abused as a short-hand label for people and groups who have been criticized widely. Perhaps some of Sceptre's objections are more about "controversial" than "controversy". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Uh, what is wrong with an article about controversies having that word or a variation thereof in the title? Both FAs are about controversies and there is nothing wrong with this. Sceptre has apparently embarked on a crusade to fix a problem that doesn't exist and has targeted about anything he/she can find that has that word in it. I prefer to AGF, but in this case it's hard to do so, esp re the two FAR's that Sceptre has filed. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 23:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Featured articles must be neutral. Use of that word in an article's title isn't. Therefore, they shouldn't be featured articles. Sceptre (talk) 23:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, Sceptre, your theory that the term "controversy" is a NPOV violation is distinctly unsupported by consensus. If you continue with this crusade, it could be deemed disruptive editing. Unless you bring it to the talk page at WP:NPOV and get agreement that you are in the right here, I'm going to ask you to stop doing this. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- From WP:NPOV: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. The neutral point of view policy is often misunderstood. The acronym NPOV does not mean "no points of view". The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV"."
- This doesn't mean we can't have articles about controversial subjects, or even about controversy itself - it means that every significant viewpoint needs the same weight; we can't be biased. Tan | 39 23:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, consensus is wrong then. The only articles in Google's top ten results which have no POV issue are the summary article and Prince album. Tells you something, doesn't it? Sceptre (talk) 23:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, Sceptre, your theory that the term "controversy" is a NPOV violation is distinctly unsupported by consensus. If you continue with this crusade, it could be deemed disruptive editing. Unless you bring it to the talk page at WP:NPOV and get agreement that you are in the right here, I'm going to ask you to stop doing this. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sceptre, you are totally out of control here. Controversy does not mean one side is wrong, it means one or more sides don't agree, that's all. That's what the articles are about, differing views. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 00:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Even more unacceptable!
- Includes 50,000 FAs! Carcharoth (talk) 22:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Also, Category:Scandals and Category:Controversies. Admittedly, some of these are problems. Carcharoth (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for linking us to even more POV violations. Sceptre (talk) 22:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- No problem. Have fun, but please stop renaming them "debates". See Category:Debates for what should be in that category. At the moment, the way you are trying to use the word "debate" is even more of a weasel term than scandal or controversy Carcharoth (talk) 22:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Some of them are deletable per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff, to be honest. Sceptre (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Is that a new speedy deletion criterion? I'm serious, though, please link to the specific bit you are referring to. Carcharoth (talk) 22:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Some of them are deletable per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff, to be honest. Sceptre (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- No problem. Have fun, but please stop renaming them "debates". See Category:Debates for what should be in that category. At the moment, the way you are trying to use the word "debate" is even more of a weasel term than scandal or controversy Carcharoth (talk) 22:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It's Google searches like this that give us needed homework. Thanks for these, my to-edit list just grew a bit. Lawrence § t/e 22:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I was just having a look through some of them. The range is interesting. From Apollo 15 postage stamp scandal (seems fine) to 2006 Melbourne teenage DVD controversy (huh?) and Burrell affair (something there, but feels wrong at the moment). 39th District corruption scandal looks a bit bare, but it led me to Mumia Abu-Jamal (a featured article). Of course, we still have this as well... Many of these could be used to build up a portfolio of examples of the best and worst about such articles. Anyone want to try and do that (rather than repeating the same old arguments)? Carcharoth (talk) 23:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I wish we had 50,000 FAs... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sigh...
The approach shown in taking an 18 month old article, Mark Foley scandal (prior version), with 2500 edits, dozens of contributors, and 153 references and turning it into a full-protected redirect is emblematic of why I get frustrated with Wikipedia. People worked on that article, some of them probably care about it. Even if it is the most vile filth from hell, it is rude and disrespectful to those contributors to toss their work aside without so much as a word of discussion or explanation with them about what you see the problem as being. Even if it were 100% the right thing to do, we shouldn't carelessly tear down the things that other have invested time and effort in building up. Well-intentioned editors deserve more respect and consideration than simply having an admin come along and wordlessly stomp on their work. Dragons flight (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- See WP:WTA#Scandal, affair. Textbook example. Sceptre (talk) 23:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Please read my comment again. Even if the outcome were entirely justified, the agressively destructive approach with no concern for the contributors involved is not. You and Cobaltbluetony provided the editors involved with neither an explanation of the policies involved nor an opportunity to correct the issues. Such an approach is rude. If we are ever going to maintain a friendly working environment on wiki, then resolving issues with old, well-devolped articles ought to be done more gradually, with respect for the time and effort already invested by others. Dragons flight (talk) 23:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, that really is shocking. People have invested a lot of time and effort into these articles to make them neutral and sourced. I see no reason to redirect and protect without discussion. I'm half tempted to revert this ASAP because I see no BLP violation here which is implied. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Don't. You can get desysopped for doing so. Sceptre (talk) 23:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Desysopped for overturning a really bad decision, with no discussion at all, on an article that has been around a very long time? I don't think so - this was stretching badlydrawnjeff to the extreme and not what the remedy intended. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Don't. You can get desysopped for doing so. Sceptre (talk) 23:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Failing to see what any of this has to do with the administrator's noticeboard. If you have a problem with these articles existing - well, that's what we have AFD for isn't it? -- Naerii 23:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've never heard of a disputed title as being a reason for a speedy delete. If the title is at fault then suggest a better title. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Titles need to follow the same rules as article text. Sceptre (talk) 23:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bad title is not a reason for speedily-deleting a mature article. Please restore the article with a better title. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bad title, maybe not. Egregious violations of BLP, yes. Sceptre (talk) 00:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's not the reason you gave in your DB notice, which referred only to the title. Please describe the BLP problems. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Per the claimed CSD reason,[1] did the CSD nominator individually verify each of the 2400 versions for "significant" BLP violation? Gimmetrow 00:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again, the title has to follow the same rules as the text. If an article's title fails NPOV, there is no way the rest of the article can pass. Seeing as passing NPOV is needed in a BLP (which this falls under as it's about an LP), and this doesn't, it fails BLP substantially. Thus being eligible for summary deletion per RFAR/BDJ.
- To Gimmetrow: the article contained the word "scandal" in its entire history. Proof enough. Sceptre (talk) 00:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Titles can be fixed with a technology called the "move" button. Poof. No more word "scandal". Gimmetrow 00:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Can you edit revisions too? Thought not. Sceptre (talk) 00:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- You were talking about the titles, not the revisions. When a page is moved, the titles of the revisions changes. Gimmetrow asked you directly if you had looked for previous versions that were more neutral. Did you? Carcharoth (talk) 00:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Can you edit revisions too? Thought not. Sceptre (talk) 00:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Titles can be fixed with a technology called the "move" button. Poof. No more word "scandal". Gimmetrow 00:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bad title, maybe not. Egregious violations of BLP, yes. Sceptre (talk) 00:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bad title is not a reason for speedily-deleting a mature article. Please restore the article with a better title. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Titles need to follow the same rules as article text. Sceptre (talk) 23:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've never heard of a disputed title as being a reason for a speedy delete. If the title is at fault then suggest a better title. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Ryan, please do it. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. Ryan, please go ahead, else someone (I'm happy to) will start a DRV on this. In such a case, poor content can be removed and cleaned up, it doesn't need to be systematically deleted. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Right, I'm giving this 15 minutes - if there's any real concern that this was a BLP violation which required the whole article to be gone and on the spot redirect without discussion, please voice your opinion ASAP. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Come on, how was it not? 100kb about a few emails a Republican sent is way past undue weight regarding events. Sceptre (talk) 00:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the article should be restored. Saying that something is a BLP violation does not make it so. -- Naerii 00:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Don't redirect, full protect a sourced neutral version. In the US this was a major scandal that led to reforms in the way congress operates and an immense amount of media coverage, separate from Mark Foley as an individual. Just because its negative doesn't mean we can't have it, it just means we need to make sure its accurate and balanced and protected from vandalism. Take this to AFD if you must, otherwise, restore. MBisanz talk 00:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Sceptre, can we all agree that the WP:BOLD part of your activity should be over now, and that a more appropriate measure would be to initiate article-specific discussions, or perhaps a centralized RfC, regarding your concerns? — Scientizzle 00:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't done anything to any controversy articles except for two moves and a speedy tag. Though we need to get this dispute over, yes. Sceptre (talk) 00:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The Badlydrawnjeff arbitration does say Any administrator, acting on their own judgment, may delete an article that is substantially a biography of a living person if they believe that it (and every previous version of it) significantly violates any aspect of the relevant policy.. It seems like something like this should go to the Arbcom for review. Corvus cornixtalk 00:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This needs to end. Arkon (talk) 00:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the judgment shown by Cobaltbluetony (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) in this set of edits and actions, as part of the sequence of events surrounding the redirect and protection of Mark Foley scandal and associated pages:
- Removes "main article" link from the Mark Foley "Scandal" section, with the edit summary "office action".
- Redirects the article Mark Foley scandal to the main article with the edit summary "OMG that was ATROCIOUS!!!".
- Redirects the talk page with the edit summary "omg".
- Protected both redirects with the edit summaries "Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff".
- Left Sceptre the message: "I think I puked in my mouth a little... Good night!"
- Leaves Sceptre an additional note: ":...and thanks for the star!"
The article was not the best in the world, and needed severe editing. Ultimately, a redirect may have been correct, but Cobaltbluetony clearly showed, by his edit summmaries, that he was reacting emotionally to the content of the article. When an article has affected you emotionally, is that really the best point at which to make a BLP judgment? Carcharoth (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm particualrly concerned with Cobaltbluetony's protection of the redirect, which appeared intended to forestall any reversion of the delete, and his description of an edit as "office action". That term is normally reserved for an edit made by an official of the foundation that is not subject to discussion or reversion. It is inappropirate for an admin who is not working at the direction of the foundation to use that summary. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, that's quite right. Assuming that Cobalt was not acting at the explicit behest of the Foundation (which seems unlikely since the protected redirection was taken just after the article was tagged by Will as {{db-attack}}; if the assumptions many of us have made here are wrong, we will, of course, owe Cobalt an apology for having directed at him criticism that might properly be directed elsewhere), his essential invocation of WP:OFFICE suggests either that he means to confer on his redirection, etc., some official sanction or that he misunderstands WP:OFFICE and thinks it simply to be shorthand for WP:BLP and its progeny; neither alternative is particularly heartening. Joe 00:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm particualrly concerned with Cobaltbluetony's protection of the redirect, which appeared intended to forestall any reversion of the delete, and his description of an edit as "office action". That term is normally reserved for an edit made by an official of the foundation that is not subject to discussion or reversion. It is inappropirate for an admin who is not working at the direction of the foundation to use that summary. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think he thought the article was really crappy with regards to weighting, points of view, et cetera, not an opinion about the subject of the article itself. Personally, I think Mark Foley's action were very very wrong, but Monicagate is 10 times shorter (and 10 times more important) and having such a long article is potentially harmful, even were it NPOV. Sceptre (talk) 00:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorri Will, but I endorse restoring the article. Quickly. The article was certainly... a bit crappy and needed pruning (those message transcripts were clearly unnecessary), but the body was well sourced to high-quality material. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 April 12. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Could you add Responses to Mark Foley scandal in there as well? Carcharoth (talk) 00:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I've unprotected the redirect. Redirecting may or may not have been the right thing to do, but protecting the redirect certainly wasn't. --Carnildo (talk) 06:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Renaming?
After the DRV the article was moved to Mark Foley congressional page controversy. This title is unacceptable and unencyclopedic. It's not okay to call this a controversy because indeed it's not. There's no controversy about whether congressman can sexually pursue the congressional pages. I agree that in 95 percent of cases, the word Scandal should be avoided. This is a textbook scandal, the very definition of the word. This was unambiguous "loss of or damage to reputation caused by actual or apparent violation of morality or propriety" that Mark Foley himself would not dispute. There are not WP:BLP or WP:NPOV concerns with calling this one a scandal. Scandal, congressman resigns, this is the very epitome of the word. If the talk page is restored and unprotected, I'm of course open to hearing other arguments, but this current title is not something the event has ever been called -- or could even accurately be called -- so perhaps we need to keep looking?
A little further clarification of why this is within the operative WP:ATA guideline:
In current affairs, a controversial episode is often described as a "scandal" by the media. In politics especially, claims of scandalous behaviour are often used for the express purpose of campaigning against political opponents. Editors should therefore exercise great caution in using the term since it may imply wrongdoing. The party at the centre of the controversial episode will probably deny wrongdoing. Editors should avoid using "scandal" without first qualifying it, as it can otherwise be read as an endorsement of one side's assertions.
First, these are not claims. What occurred is at this point undisputed. Second, there were not allegations made as part of a political campaign, but rather a proven instance of a congressman behaving inappropriately toward congressional pages. It played no significant part in either campaign and is recognized as inappropriate by both Republicans and Democrats. I think that, quite literally, nobody in the country defends Mark Foley. Thus, controversy is somewhat of an absurdism. Everyone has since admitted that this was indeed wrongdoing (again, look at the circumstances, this was not controversial), so the title scandal does not endorse the claims of one side, but merely reflects the dictionary definiton, and common name, of what occurred.
Please understand that I'm someone who strongly supports the BLP policy, and someone who strongly agrees with the wording you'e included at ATA. But I believe this is a clear exception. We should refrain from having the "Barack Obama's pastor's remarks scandal", "The Hillary Clinton Bosnia trip distortion scandal", the "John McCain lobbyist affair scandal", etc. But if we take it too far it becomes a sort of unencyclopedic political correctness that does not reflect our standards. --JayHenry (talk) 15:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'll leave this for others to sort out. I won't move it again. Not an edit warrior, though I believe that encyclopedic titles should be accurate. I urge consultation with a dictionary (this is a sadly rare step on Wikipedia) before people entrench their views too firmly. --JayHenry (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Now how did that happen? Unprotected and renamed. Blueboy96 16:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps sounding naive again, but don't we name things based on the most commonly used name for things? Isn't that how the naming conventions work? And unless I am mistaken (likely), "Mark Foley scandal" or "Mark Foley congressional page scandal" are the most commonly used names to describe this event. Now if the article itself is a cesspool, then that can be dealt with, but I think to try and rename something to an uncommon name, just to avoid having buzzwords in our titles seems odd. No? Mahalo. --Ali'i 17:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- We could rename it "2006 congressional page scandal", but then no one would know what it's about because no one has ever referred to it that way. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps sounding naive again, but don't we name things based on the most commonly used name for things? Isn't that how the naming conventions work? And unless I am mistaken (likely), "Mark Foley scandal" or "Mark Foley congressional page scandal" are the most commonly used names to describe this event. Now if the article itself is a cesspool, then that can be dealt with, but I think to try and rename something to an uncommon name, just to avoid having buzzwords in our titles seems odd. No? Mahalo. --Ali'i 17:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
A Very Odd Move and Vandalim to J.K. Rowling
Need some help with this mess: J._K._Rowling. Check the move to the talk page as well. Thanks.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Phew Woody remerged the talk page histories.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 22:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Whether FAs get protected or not, we probably should move protect them and their Talk pages, at least for the day that they appear on the main page. Corvus cornixtalk 00:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Is move-protecting TFA Talk pages standard practice? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- No (although move-protecting the TFAs themselves is). GracenotesT § 02:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I might be hopelessly daft, but what happened in the pagemove? My eyes don't see a difference. ^.^; JuJube (talk) 10:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
J. K. Rowling → J. K. RowIing
. The "l" was replaced by an uppercase "I"—there's no visible difference in Arial. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Erm...
OK, this is a bit awkward, but I just updated DYK, and... I'd never done so before :) Could someone check if I've, you know, not screwed up royally? Thanks in advance. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- You seem to have deleted the Main Page. Did you press the big red button? Carcharoth (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note to self: joke works better when not posted over an hour later... Carcharoth (talk) 13:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- It would be even better if the developers hadn't modified the software so you can't do that. Hut 8.5 16:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- you can still delete the main page if you know what your doing :P βcommand 2 21:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- OMG where be baleete main page buttonz? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- It would be even better if the developers hadn't modified the software so you can't do that. Hut 8.5 16:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note to self: joke works better when not posted over an hour later... Carcharoth (talk) 13:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This is the second time I have had to come here regarding this user the first being here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive137#User:Electrobe with also links to his wikiquette alert WP:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Electrobe, going through his contributions you will see he has been chaning several dozen template to his new format [2] which includes changing the wikilinks text to black this is discrouged in the WP:COLOUR MOS I am not the only user who dislikes this new format see Template:RussianPMs it tried to discuss this with the user Template talk:Pictish and Scottish Monarchs#Link colour and get accused of vandalism --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 11:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- The user is still using inappropriate images on templates see Template:Head of Government of the Isle of Man he has already been warned against this [3] and Template talk:Scottish First Ministers#Coat of arms... could and admin please talk action this user is becoming very disruptive --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 12:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
CheckUser policy description
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
User:FT2 has written a description of CheckUser policy at User:FT2/CU, along the same lines as Wikipedia:Oversight. This seems to me to be an accurate and informative description of what CheckUser is, and dispels some of the "magic pixie dust" myths, so I propose to move it to Wikipedia:CheckUser, currently a sort-of-dab page. FT2's page includes references to everything currently at that page, so nothing will be lost, I think. Guy (Help!) 14:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- To clarify, I have documented how CU works now, rather than improvize anything novel or "new proposals". There is probably more that could be added, but as it stands, my own aim and feedback on its talk page are more around "does it accurately represent CU norms and practice on enwiki as they stand today", more than anything. I think it does. FT2 (Talk | email) 14:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I would have to agree with JzG, this page is a good explanation and should probably be moved there. Cbrown1023 talk 14:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- This looks marvelous. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Was there a discussion among other checkusers, in any place. The discussion at FT2's page seems rather sparse. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't promote it much, but I did seek views in private to double-chck my work. Checkuser comments where received were broadly positive; non-CU's found some minor edits which were incorporated. If you reckon visible CU confirmation's needed then that's probably no bad thing. Do you reckon it needs some CU's to comment on it, for the record? FT2 (Talk | email) 16:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am very pleased that this page has been authored. The coverage of oversight has always struck me as somewhat higher in quality to that of checkuser, and I do believe that this will address this imbalance. I'd endorse this being moved to Wikipedia:Checkuser. Anthøny 18:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Since the page has gone live I believe it moot, but having the current CU's lined up saying "Yup!" would have given it that extra degree of authority. I had assumed that the text was circulated, but didn't know where. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't promote it much, but I did seek views in private to double-chck my work. Checkuser comments where received were broadly positive; non-CU's found some minor edits which were incorporated. If you reckon visible CU confirmation's needed then that's probably no bad thing. Do you reckon it needs some CU's to comment on it, for the record? FT2 (Talk | email) 16:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
From the "oh no, not again" department
I would like to see some discussion, please on ways of de-escalating conflicts instead of escalating them. On BongBoing, they have the concept of "disemvowelling", which neutralises rants without drama. I don't think that would work here because edits / posts can be re-edited or reverted, but we need a credible way of calmly reining in "rhetorical exuberance" without over-reacting to it.
At the moment we have a very blunt instrument - blocking - and a very poor way of controlling it which means that "oh sod off, we already debated that five hundred times" is seen as more of a problem than bringing up the same rejected POV for the five hundred and first time. WP:CIVIL is all well and good, but there is a world of difference between being reasonably respectful of fellow editors, and cuddling up to a never-ending parade of zealots. There is also a tendency to focus on one diff that says "sod off" and go straight into Chicken Little mode, ignoring the dozens of exchanges that led up to it, the vexatiousness of those who work their way through every guideline in the book until they find one that suggest some slight ambiguity where none, in fact, exists, in some cases legions of sock and meatpuppets, and so on. In fact, Wikipedia's format lends itself well to a bait and report technique which looks to me to be the MO of some of the more clueful zealots on the project these days.
And above all we appear to be requiring long-standing editors and defenders of policy to become superhuman in order to be allowed to continue contributing.
Wikipedia is currently almost certainly the number one most important place to get your point of view promoted. I don't think anyone disputes that. It's also the case that some promoters of fringe theories, conspiracies and the like are vicious and unscrupulous, leading many people to give them a very wide berth, and some are just plain tiresome, repeating the same false assertions time and again in the hope that one day they will become true, or endlessly trying to draw a new "consensus" between the current state of the article and their preferred POV. This is not necessarily done with evil intent; many people sincerely believe that telekinesis exists, vaccines are killing and disabling children, the World Trade Center was blown up by the Government in order to justify a new oil war and so on.
That leaves a few people (e.g. user:MONGO, user:ScienceApologist) working hard to resist long-term egregious POV-pushing, with the result that tempers get frayed. Tempers get frayed anyway, in controversial topics such as the never-ending ethnic feuds. I really don't think that blocking people for tetchiness in the face of POV-pushing is a great idea. I don't think that many people here will be unaware of my view on this, of course, but in the end we are allowed to call a spade a spade sometimes, and we are actually allowed to be human. We are also allowed to become frustrated. And there should be a way of calmly refactoring or toning down such frustration that allows people to calm down, because blocking for sarcasm or snappish remarks is about as effective as "cool-down" blocks. Blocking is supposed to be preventive, but virtually every block of a long-standing contributor for civility infringements - even (perhaps especially) including Giano - ends up looking punitive. If the block were preventive, simply posting "OK, I am calm now" on the talk page should result in an immediate and uncontroversial unblock.
But I don't think blocking is a good way of handling people whose commitment to the project and its core values is never, at any point, in doubt.
I don't have a good idea for how to handle this. I'd be really interested to hear if anyone does have one. Guy (Help!) 14:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's probably an idea which is widely endorsed by members of the community, but just not conveyed in the actions that eventually happen. You're right about the blocking of long-standing editors though, cool-down blocks aren't permitted per se but are often implemented (at least from what I can see). Maybe a re-write in policy is needed here. Rudget (review) 15:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree there is a problem. I also agree, Guy, that the solution, if one in fact even exists, will be messy and contentious. In other words, great essay. And also, sorry I dont' have a solution. A meaningless post by Keeper......Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I despise disemvowling. It basically says "This is not worthwhile content, but we don't care enough to remove and/or really do anything about it." ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 18:40, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Valid view, and it would not work here. So what would? I mean, we need to run something up the flagpole and see who salutes. Guy (Help!) 20:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Guy, that's one of the best posts I've seen on the topic in a long time. I believe you're absolutely right.
- Personally I believe we should never block established contributors except in extreme circumstances, e.g. the person has become berserk and won't stop reverting, or something. Blocking pisses people off. Good people. People we don't want to lose. Our core contributors are the project's most important asset, and a lot of administrators don't have the wisdom to see that a block which is strictly within policy can be hurtful to the project. It's something I've learned as a corporate manager: you have to give exceptional people a little extra slack sometimes. Admins here need enough wisdom to see what consequences to the project their within-policy block will cause; it's like look-ahead in chess, and only comes with life experience.
- Every time a long-term contributor to the project gets blocked, there's a horrific drama scene on AN/I, and even worse, we have a high risk of losing one of our core contributors. We all make mistakes, and we all lose our tempers sometimes. Fringe POV pushers have learned to game our system, bait good users, and right now I feel like we're on the defensive, and losing ground fast. I don't have a proposal on how to fix it, ... yet. Antandrus (talk) 20:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Just our of curiosity, how many articles must I write before I am exempt from the civility policy? I'll be sure to get writing...No user, regardless of what they contribute, is exempt from our policies. Being an asshole is not excusable because an editor deals with POV pushers. It make "look punitive" but editors who routinely engage in incivility and attacks degrade the community, even if they aren't doing direct damage to the actual content of our articles. I am opposed to the greatest extent that I can be, to any rule that will exempt certain editors from treating other editors in a respectful manner. If a certain behavior would earn a new-ish user a block, that behavior should earn a block for a "longstanding contributor" as well; double standards should not be applied. - auburnpilot talk 21:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- To an extent, I agree with the above. Another way to phrase this situation might be what would we do if a certain editor who has been a polite and civil editor for a long period of time, and has not been subject to blocking for conduct, suddenly, on a given article, for whatever reason, loses it? In a case like this, that person might just, for whatever reason be having a very bad day. I had one of those yesterday, throwing up I think five times. I don't think I said anything out of line though, as I was basically logged off most of the day. If we were dealing with an established editor who has had repeated, almost regular warnings for misconduct, but had never previously been blocked or otherwise reprimanded, I could agree to that if the situation warranted it. But if Kirill Lokshin or one of the other most respected, tolerant, and polite editors we have were to suddenly become far less than polite, I can and would try to find out what happened before placing a block, as there would be some reason to think that something really extraordinary, maybe something we didn't know about, like a death threat or similar e-mail, happened. But, yes, established users with histories of less than stellar conduct who've basically lucked out to date in not getting sanctioned I can't really see any objections to blocking or banning as the situation required. And, yeah, I'd include me in that number. John Carter (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Nobody's exempt an I'm not suggesting they should be. I am suggesting that people who work at high-stress points of the project should not be blocked for outbreaks of rhetorical exuberance. We should have a gentler but no less firm way to push back against that. When people are provoked, they react in different ways, and make no mistake: there is some serious provocation going on here. So I am suggesting we find a way to encourage people to be better, not punish them for not being better. This is, I think, basic psychology, in as much as parenting a teenager teaches you such things. Guy (Help!) 21:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Suggestion; a posting time limitation - where an editor is restricted to posting an edit after the expiry of x minutes from the last. This would stop reflex responses to baiting comments, allow the editor to "refine" their response (or to cancel it), or require them to chose what venue they wish to contribute in their permited editing allowance. In short, it requires an editor to think about what they are posting before hitting the save button. Such a restriction will allow considered discourse (or good article space contributions) rather than escalating a heated argument. Again, this would be applied to accounts only after violation of policy followed by warnings.
- In other places this system is known as a flood barrier. I don't know if this is practical in this Wiki, and it is likely to increase rather than decrease the sysop workload, but that would be my answer to cool down the rhetoric. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what incident Guy is referring to, but I would oppose creating a double standard for people who edit a lot. (Never mind for the moment that, in practice, there is one.) A newbie who can't keep his temper in check eventually gets blocked; sometimes (and much less often), the same happens to an established user who can't keep his temper in check. What bothers me more is the flip side of the issue; as mentioned above, when an established user runs afoul of a rule or guideline in some not-very-harmful way and gets blocked for it, there is a huge outcry, but when a good-faith newbie does the same and gets blocked, few people notice or say anything. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not proposing a double standard. I'm pointing out that we have no decent way of handling people who hit the civility margins in one out of every thousand posts as distinct from those who do it every other comment, and we seem to be in outright denial of human nature, as set out in Godwin's Law for example. The problem is not people losing their tempers, the problem is vexatious attempts to push a POV and endless slanging matches between entrenched positions. Blocking people does not fix the actual problem. I don't know what would fix the actual problem, but blocking an editor with over 40,000 edits for saying "get lost" on his own talk page (to cite one recent example) does not even begin to address it. In fact, it rather tends to make it worse. Guy (Help!) 11:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Y'know, I wonder if it takes a certain personality type to consistently stand up to the fringers and loonies. (Oooh, was that uncivil?) Mongo, SA and if I may say so Guy and myself would not likely get voted into the Victorian Ladies' Tea Club and Encyclopedia Writing Society. Conversely I don't recall finding many of those who demand unwavering, unconditional civility hanging out in the darker corners of WP. Sorry for the amateur psychoanalysis but though I'd throw it out there. Raymond Arritt (talk) 11:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Guy has stated something that has been repeatedly noted and complained about by many experienced editors who deal with controversial topics. I have been collecting egregious examples of what I view as Abuse of CIVIL here where we seem to be applying CIVIL a bit too aggressively in my opinion, or at least approaching such a limit. The list of words and phrases which are judged to be unCIVIL seems to be getting longer and longer (I have collected some examples here). This phenomenon has been repeatedly noted and discussed at Raymond arritt's Expert Withdrawal pages. As for what to do with persistent disruption that drives people to this behavior, I wrote a draft of an essay for some measures which we find work at the pages related to creationism, the creation-evolution controversy and intelligent design. I have also developed a set of exercises, the first batch of which appear at User:Filll/AGF Challenge which describe some difficult situations which drive some people to these supposedly unCIVIL outbursts. I have found that many who lecture others about how awful it is to be unCIVIL and how mean many experienced editors and admins are to those who promote WP:FRINGE views and how they WP:BITE newbies have little to no experience dealing with controversial topics on Wikipedia. The AGF Challenge gives all a relatively painless chance to experience some of these difficult editing situations without reading a lot of material and without getting involved with a lot of drama. Interestingly, I have noticed that some who constantly gripe and complain about how unCIVIL others are and how we are too harsh with disruptive editors and how we BITE newbies are far far more aggressive when answering the AGF Challenge than is standard practice in controversial areas. The only reason they complain is that they are not familiar with these difficult editing situations and controversial topics. I suspect similar things are true of those who frequent places like Wikipedia Review, and complain at length about decisions made at Wikipedia; they have their own hot button issues, but when confronting a problem that is outside their area of sensitivity, they exhibit tendencies as harsh as, if not harsher than those exhibited by experienced admins and editors on Wikipedia. So I invite everyone; come take the AGF Challenge.--Filll (talk) 12:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Policy Across Different Language Wikipedia
I've been asked the following, and didn't know specifically how to answer - so, for my reference: if a user is blocked on the English language Wikipedia would it be a violation of WP:SOCK if they edit on another language. Presumably not, since WP:SOCK/WP:BLOCK are English language policies - is that correct? —αlεx•mullεr 19:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly. Every language version is independent from others, and blocks and bans are not valid on other wikis. Though if a user is blocked on one wiki and continues disruption on other, they are generally far more likely to be blocked on other wikis if they continue disruption there. MaxSem(Han shot first!) 19:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. TransylvanianKarl is urged to refrain from editing International Churches of Christ and any related pages until he has fully familiarized himself with the English Wikipedia core policies. TransylvanianKarl is also urged to raise issues and suggestions on the talkpage before making potentially controversial edits to articles, including deletion of cited material and citations.
— Coren (talk) for the Arbitration Committee, 19:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Complete bot policy rewrite
The bot policy rewrite mentioned earlier on this page has gone live. Further input would be appreciated on WT:BOT to ensure that the changes have consensus and to discuss the possibility of further changes.--Dycedarg ж 20:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Our HP Fan
Seems the HP fan most of us are aware of is strolling by or is encouraging others to stroll by (see this article history). Should we close the gates temporarily and reopen after an hour or so? I'm personally a fan of just revert 'em like crazy and leaving the Main Page open in the spirit of the time honored practice. However, our RC patrollers could always use a short break from that kind of nonsense.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note: Now protected by VegaDark.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- As this has become an issue recently, is it not possible to simply add "HAGGER?" to the list various vandal bots use to identify vandalism, and have it reverted on sight? - auburnpilot talk 21:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Quick Note re: 'Turdman the Vandal'
I have created a sock drawer for this particular miscreant and have linked his blatant sockpuppets there. I don't think CHU is required for the current socks [it isn't hard to tell that 'Turdman the ...' accounts are related!]. Anyway, if any of you with the mop block more of his socks, slap the template on for organisation. ><RichardΩ612 22:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
SSP/RFCU merger proposal
I've been thinking about some simplification here. It seems daft in a way, to have two sets of pages, both essentially for dealing with socks or suspected socks. What we really need is one set of pages for all sock concerns, with a tag for "requesting checkuser investigation" (+ rationale if needed) for those cases that merit it.
Can I solicit views on the idea of merging these?
FT2 (Talk | email) 22:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- (Now moved to subpage /SSP-RFCU merger proposal for further discussion - FT2 (Talk | email) 10:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC))
Please Help with my Page
To whom it may concern,
I am writing to respectfully request that my user name either be taken down or that the messages on them be cleared, as i have been wrongly accused by unprofessional adminstrators particularly Theresa Knott. I specifically told her that I would not post my biography on wikipedia. So she unblocked me so that i could edit. Then when I asked her why other people posted their biographies, she complained that they were more "famous" and therefore it was okay for them to post biographies. She has responded with many assumptions about me in a hostile manner, and when I finally said that I was going to seek assistance from another adminstrator with more sense of understanding and professionalism, she turned around and simply reblocked my talk page without even giving me a reason. I checked the log which quotes her telling another adminstrator that I tried to repost a "resume." She Blatantly lied about my actions. Please check my records as you will find that since the time i was blocked (which was due to my misunderstanding that wikipedia welcomed biographies --I am not a vandalist) their is no record that I have ever done or even attempted to post a biography or anything on wikipedia of any kind. I am an innocent person who had trouble working the wikipedia. I ended up pushin wrong buttons but meant no harm to anyone. Now, I am faced with people contacting me asking why the strange page titled user: Patricia Martellotti with those distrubing messages of being blocked etc. I want to have my name cleared. I want my pages to be cleared of these negative messages which falsely accuses me fo things that are untrue. What Theresa did was a misuse of her privileges as an adminstrator. Please consider my thoughts and feelings and imagine what it's like to have your name googled only to find the name splatted on wikipedia saying: this page does not work, and here are the reasons etc.
If you have any consideration, please help me to resolve this mess. You may call me cell at any time if you wish: [number redacted for privacy; things like this are handled on-wiki usually].
Patricia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.248.204 (talk) 22:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Crossref: this userpage FT2 (Talk | email) 00:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- In fact this isn't quite the entirety of the case.
- You posted a resume... so far not a problem. That resume was removed with explanation by user:Bfigura at 03:08, April 9 (Wikipedia is not a webspace provider. Blanking a resume in userspace), you reposted,... removed at 03:22, April 9 with further note (Again, not webspace. Please see WP:NOT), you reverted... removed at 03:30, April 9 (Blank per WP:NOT webspace provider. See repeated spamming by this user), you reverted... nominated for deletion at 03:36, April 9...
- Carrying on... 03:39, April 9 you removed the nomination notice and it had to be reinstated... 03:48, April 9 you removed it again and it had to be reinstated again... 03:50, April 9 you removed it again and it had to be reinstated again... 04:01, April 9 you removed it again and it had to be reinstated again... 04:08, April 9 you removed it again...
- And again... the note explaining not to do this at 03:44, April 9 was removed by you at 03:48 (hence you obviously knew about it)... a repeat notice to let you know again at 03:51 was removed that same minute, 03:51.....
- You get the idea. In fact I'd say by the end of checking that lot, frankly I agree completely with the block(s). If you are directed to do something many many times, and told not to do what you're doing, then it might be worth some time, pausing to consider if you might be actually mistaken.
- I have also checkuser'ed your account to look for signs of other people "hacking" and vandalizing using your account but there are none. Your account (as best I can tell, and the evidence is fairly good), has been essentially used by you and you alone - or at least, the same user who vandalized is the same user who posted the requests you have argued, in caps, to allow you a resume on Wikipedia.
- A significant number of users have reviewed its usage. To reiterate Theresa's words, you need to consider if you are visiting here to write an encyclopedia, or create self-promotion. If you are okay with the idea that it's unlikely you'll be allowed to post a resume of any kind for the foreseeable future (bad motive to edit), or to blank pages, as you say, then we may have a way to go forward. If that's the case and you are genuinely hoping to add encyclopedic content to the project, as are others here, then do please say so, and we'll probably be able to sort out the rest. Thanks!
- I have blanked the user talk page, and it will be removed entirely in due course if there is no further disruption. I strongly suggest you don't post any autobiography, and as suggested above, that you also listen to any advice already given you. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'd fully support that action, as well as removing the related checkuser case which was recently created by Blow of Light (talk · contribs). If this user is being effected in real life, I believe we should do our best to minimize that damage. I don't even understand the reasoning behind the checkuser request. - auburnpilot talk 04:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I deleted the page once, as well. Strictly as A7, non-notability as a local news reporter. I never heard from the author or said IP address with a problem concerning the page. Why not just courtesy blank the talk page and tell her not to use her account again? I don't think Theresa did anything inappropriate in response, I am generally cold but polite in responding to these sort of vanity complaints. Keegantalk 07:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Just piping in as I'm involved here. This user contacted the AC list and I responded stating that she must not post a resume. She told me that she wished to edit articles so I unblocked her. Her next mail was to tell me she was unable to edit her userpage thus making it clear that she had tried to edit her userpage but could not.. The only reason she has not readded a userpage is because she is unable to because of salting. When I told her not to post a resume she got personal. In the time she was unblocked she made no attempt whatsoever to edit an article, and as this was the reason I unblocked I decided to reblock. She is clearly upset with me and continues to post abusive emails to me, three in the last day, despite requesting yesterday that I not reply to any more of her emails. I intend to honor that request and not reply. If she continues to rant at me I shall killfile her. As for what to do about her, I think deleting her talk page is probably the best action. This should satisfy her need to put this behind her. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 08:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not quite: she edited Patricia Martellotti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). But this raises a question in my mind: if someone posts a resume in mainspace and it's tagged A7, I will typically move it to the user page and post {{nn-userfy}} on talk. I don't have a problem with nuking the user page after a while, if the user does not contribute tot he project, but I guess we must also allow for good faith and not bite the newbies. That said, in this case it's pretty clear that all she wants is to post her resume on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 10:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've deleted her talk page. Any admin who needs to see it, could if they wanted to. --Haemo (talk) 16:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I guess I could have userfied instead of deleting Patricia Martellotti, but I believe she already had a copy at User:Patricia Martellotti, so there wasn't much point. I see that my carefully phrased explanations lasted almost twelve hours before the page was deleted. Oh, well. I guess I should have written them earlier. Bovlb (talk) 03:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Nothing444
- Nothing444 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Nothing444 (talk • contribs • non-automated contribs • wikichecker • count • total • logs • page moves • block log • email)
It appears that Nothing444 has been blocked by Maxim (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for not contributing to the encyclopedia for a period of 72 hours. I'm not a huge fan of these blocks - I really don't see how they're exactly protective when Nothing444 hasn't really caused harm to the project, but I think we should maybe enforce some kind of restriction on him, such as banning from Userspace for 6 months and encouragement to use User_talk space for encyclopedia building work only. Possible wording is;
"Nothing444 is banned from editing the user space of any user, for a period of six months. Furthermore, Nothing444 is encouraged to keep the majority of correspondance on user talk pages directly related to improving encyclopedic content. Users are prohibited from posting material on behalf of this user, where it would breach the aforementioned conditions. These restrictions are enforcable by blocks, starting at 24 hours and proceeding upwards at administrators' discretion."
I'd appreciate thoughts on this, I think we should try and help these younger users wherever possible to contribute, and this just might point them in the right direction. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- A block? Sometimes I'm a bit concerned about the amount of redundant pages or over-releases of newsletters he does but seriously...a block? I would probably be willing to unblock if he does request it on his talk page. I think what you are suggesting is more appropriate Ryan. I'd support that over a block. This user has not harmed the project in a way that requires a block.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 01:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- He's been doing that, and managed to be quite disruptive. Now, I've taken Friday's recent comments to heart; some users just aren't capable of contributing. I've block Nothing for three days; I hope he truly thinks about what he's doing. If he decides to actually contribute, I'm fine. If he continues to waste good admins' time, then I don't think he should retain his editing privileges. Maxim(talk) 01:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Persian Poet Gal, I think you may forget that we're building an encyclopedia. And Nothing444 isn't, he's only being disruptive. That's why revoked his editing privileges for three days. Maxim(talk) 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maxim, I do not forget that fact. I just think that this block was much too punitory in nature. I am not saying your actions were entirely wrong, but they were incredibly harsh.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Why would I want to punish Nothing444? I only want to prevent more disruption so me and basically, everyone else can continue making an encyclopedia without having to cast a wary over Nothing444's talkpage and contributions everytime we log on. At least for 72 hours. During which I'm hoping he'll realise that he's disruptive and hopefully again, try to take action by himself without admins forcing him to do this or that... Maxim(talk) 01:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maxim, I do not forget that fact. I just think that this block was much too punitory in nature. I am not saying your actions were entirely wrong, but they were incredibly harsh.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Persian Poet Gal, I think you may forget that we're building an encyclopedia. And Nothing444 isn't, he's only being disruptive. That's why revoked his editing privileges for three days. Maxim(talk) 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think that the Wikipedia space needs to be added on a restriction. A lot of the issue at hand here is his Wikiprojects and task forces (and related newsletters) but no follow through on the article space for the projects he's so interested in. Metros (talk) 01:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'd prefer to watch this and maybe enforce at a later date. Hopefully if we can prod him into mainspace, he could contribute constructively to wiki-space. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I am one of Nothing444's close contributers. I have seen very little edits that contribute to articles. He recently told me today that he was but I guess he wasn't. I agree with Ryan's offer of banning him from editing his userspace. But I do have one concern. What if Nothing444 is banned from editing his userspace, but he doesn't contribute to articles much, or at all?--RyRy5 Got something to say? 01:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Then you have to ask, why is he here? There's plenty of encyclopedia building taks you can do, without directly adding to content - I think Nothing treats this more like myspace. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about his userpage he has now? Is it going to be like that for six months?--RyRy5 Got something to say? 01:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Why do you care so much about a userpage? Personally, I have one because it helps me out with editing articles, because it looks better for an admin to have one; half my time here,, it's been a redlink. Maxim(talk) 02:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Stuck like that for half a year?? Then he'd probably be thought of as a crappy user like that metros' guy who hasn't updated his userpage since August. Metros (talk) 02:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, Nothing444 may be looking and planning on what to do in six months besiades editing articles. I was thinking of blanking his userpage, but I am begginning to have second thoughts about my plan.--RyRy5 Got something to say? 02:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not being able to edit his userpage should be the least of concerns about this situation RyRy. Its strict but its far better then allowing him to continually edit in a fashion that causes administrators to feel the need to enact a block. (edit conflict:I would just recommend to leave it alone all together)¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, Nothing444 may be looking and planning on what to do in six months besiades editing articles. I was thinking of blanking his userpage, but I am begginning to have second thoughts about my plan.--RyRy5 Got something to say? 02:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about his userpage he has now? Is it going to be like that for six months?--RyRy5 Got something to say? 01:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Blocking someone to encourage them to contribute more? There may be some logic there but I cannot see any. His most recent contributions seem to include (amongst other things) several welcome messages, stubbing, converting refs to inline. Has anyone actually been prevented from editing by him? Has he engaged in personal attacks? Has he vandalized articles? Has he violated BLP? Is there some "productivity quota" that editors are now obliged to achieve? DuncanHill (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Disruption of the encyclopedia is something that should prevented by blocks. Reasons for blocking aren't limited to personal attacks, vandalism, BLP vios and the obvious like. Nothing444's deleted edits are rather telling. Maxim(talk) 02:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
A quick look at a [section on this page] and comments by Friday (between two of my comments) may be worthwhile. Although it is about another user - RyRy5 - there may be some mileage in the comment "...this is why we should not find myspacers and tell them "You have to go edit articles." I'd rather have them playing in userspace where they're not touching anything important." George The Dragon (talk) 02:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not making Nothing444 trying to edit the mainspace by force... If he wants to edit very much, he by all means should try. But he hasn't really. I've seen Friday's comments, and I think they are quite wise. The thing that pushed me to block Nothing444 is that he was disrupting a group of editors that are trying coordinate efforts to make encyclopedia article, not coordinate efforts to make pointless newsletters! Maxim(talk) 02:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, and I should clarify, I fully support the block and would like to see further blocks extended to members who treat Wikipedia as a social network. We are funded by donations, and while the public may be happy to donate to a free encyclopedia, I doubt they would want to donate to the "Facebook everyone can edit"! George The Dragon (talk) 02:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly, we're too mired in pointless, circular meta-discussion and bureaucracy and the like to do that. Such a block would never stick, it fails one policy, yet passes another one... Maxim(talk) 02:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's the time to ignore both policies and do what's right. Keilana|Parlez ici 02:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly, we're too mired in pointless, circular meta-discussion and bureaucracy and the like to do that. Such a block would never stick, it fails one policy, yet passes another one... Maxim(talk) 02:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, and I should clarify, I fully support the block and would like to see further blocks extended to members who treat Wikipedia as a social network. We are funded by donations, and while the public may be happy to donate to a free encyclopedia, I doubt they would want to donate to the "Facebook everyone can edit"! George The Dragon (talk) 02:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Supporting this block. Between spamming my talk page, filing frivolous BRFAs, socking at his own RFA, and the endless myspace activity, I dont see this user being here to contribute. Ryan, your right that users can contribute in ways other than mainspace content. They can wikignome, do techie stuff, dispute resolution, sorting, etc. But if one is not doing any of those things, than how are they improving the place? MBisanz talk 02:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oh I don't know... I edit my userspace a lot too. I don't think this is the kind of thing we should be blocking people for - it seems a bit OTT, no? I admit I haven't spent any time on MySpace, but it doesn't seem like the kind of site where people create projects to improve encyclopedia articles, so comparisons between it and Wikipedia seem a little inaccurate. Does anyone have specific diffs showing disruption? -- Naerii 04:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Without getting into specifics, I'd say the difference is that userspace edits make up roughly 12% of your edits, but roughly 30% of Nothing's. Additionally, the main space only makes up 16% of Nothing's edits, but 34% of yours. Interesting flip of percentages. (Just for comparison, the main space makes up 39% of my edits, and userspace makes up 4-5%). - auburnpilot talk 05:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what this block is supposed to accomplish. It seems a little too mean and a lot too punitive to me. I too have been feeling some frustration with this user. After all, I was the one who un-permablocked him a couple of weeks ago on the condition that he participate more in encyclopedia building. It's clear that he really wants to help, but unfortunately he seems to not quite understand the point of the project, and as a result he's continuously distracted by the "ooh shiny" aspects of his endeavors. His actions can be a bit maddening (the multiple newsletters in so many days is a fine example), but I would hardly consider that disruptive. The user is clearly very young, and apparently isn't quite mature or have a sufficient attention span for serious contributions. I would support an enforcement of minimal user space edits for a period of three months. That should be long enough for him to learn what it's like to contribute in a meaningful way. – ClockworkSoul 05:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I would agree with that remedy. He's not being a very productive user, but I don't see a reason to block him -- I would prefer blocks to be placed to prevent actual harm to the encyclopedia, not just because people keep reading his edits and keep wishing they had those minutes back. Encouraging him to contribute more to the encyclopedia and less to user space is the right idea. A block is far too blunt a tool for the job. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I see how very little of Nothing's edits are on articles. But I say he is too enthusiastic. Sometimes I'm that way too. But I have learned my lesson. 1000+ of my 5700+ edits are mainspace edits. Nothing has only 450+ mainspace of his 3000+ total contribs. Back towards the end of February, Nothing started contributing to articles, and I noticed his mainspace boost every day, but ever since he got interested in these non-article related things such as userspace, talking, making more subpages, ect, he has stopped editing in the mainspace. Due to his enthusiasm, I'd say he is around 13 years of age, and hasn't matured yet. I'd say banning in the userspace for about 4-5 months. I also know that Nothing will try for adminship in the begginning of 2009. At this rate, being blocked 3 times and including all his recent incidents, his RFA would be snowballed with opposes unless he changes quickly.--RyRy5 Got something to say? 05:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree with this block. There is mainspace work in his recent contributions; in the contributions list it gets swamped by all the other stuff, but if all that other stuff wasn't there, no one would be saying we should block him for making too few edits overall (of course, that would be preposterous). It appears the complaint is simply that he doesn't edit the mainspace enough as a proportion of his total edits. Well, I find that reasoning to be poor; if his positive contributions were only a small fraction of his negative contributions, then we could justify a block by saying he does more harm that good, but in this case it isn't that he makes harmful or disruptive contributions, it's just that a high percentage of what he contributes serves no particularly meaningful purpose. Why should those edits concern us at all, if they aren't harmful in nature? Sure, we don't want a segment of Wikipedians who treat the project like MySpace and contribute nothing, but clearly Nothing has an actual interest in the encyclopedia and does do some constructive work, and that should be enough. Everyking (talk) 07:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'm unblocking. Any other encouragement we give him to focus his edits more constructively will take place after that. – ClockworkSoul 07:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this unblock. ClockworkSoul, you really should have at least made a note at my talkpage, and secondly, there's no consensus to unblock here. Maxim(talk) 12:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- (Posted to User talk:Maxim) You're right that I should have left a note here on your talk page, but there was a clear agreement that a block was a bit excessive. I apologize for not posting on your talk; I didn't mean to be rude. I should probably think twice before adminning at 4 in the morning. :) – ClockworkSoul 15:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this unblock. ClockworkSoul, you really should have at least made a note at my talkpage, and secondly, there's no consensus to unblock here. Maxim(talk) 12:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I support this block, there is only so much that talking with the user about their disruptive actions can do, and it has proven to be ineffective. Ultimalty we are here to build an encyclopedia, not make the next myspace. Tiptoety talk 19:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I oppose the block. There is no quota on how many edits a user must make in any specified part of Wikipedia to avoid a block, or what the ratios of edits in different spaces must be. It causes me concern about attitude when Maxim says on the userpage of Nothing444[4] "I've deleted all pages you've created in the subpages of WP:HOCKEY; they're simply not needed and they become a tad disruptive. They wouldn't have survived MfD anyhow so I didn't see the need to look up the instructions on how to MfD a page as it's a waste of my time." We are generally far more polite than that even to raving vandals. Edison (talk) 23:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Complex talk page instructions
I just came across User talk:Snookerhorn and found that the instructions are too complex. I've left them a message about it but I said that I would post here in the event they wanted another opinion. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 07:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Totally agree. Textbook case of WP:OWN as it applies to user talk pages. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bit of reading makes me think this may be a joke. If so, it's very amusing. Especially the bit requiring all posting users to "personally type their name, in bold, regular sized (otherwise unaltered) font", specifically banning the use of ~~~~. – ClockworkSoul 07:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- He doesn't ban the use of ~~~~ - he requires more. What he expects you to type is: '''<username>. Verification:'''~~~~, with the <username being replaced by the username of the user in question. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- A bit of reading makes me think this may be a joke. If so, it's very amusing. Especially the bit requiring all posting users to "personally type their name, in bold, regular sized (otherwise unaltered) font", specifically banning the use of ~~~~. – ClockworkSoul 07:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- A checkuser shows a sockpuppet farm in use here. No time right now to fully root through it all though. Maybe later/tomorrow. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 11:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is hilarious. -- Naerii 12:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- BJAODN. Corvus cornixtalk 19:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Persistent vandalism and imposition of one version, suspect of sockpuppetry
- User:Anietor continues to revert back his favourite version of Christianity in China, deleting my edits. Various users have noted that the article is severely POV. I suspect also he is a sockpuppet of User:Brian0324, who shows similar behaviour against attempts to make the article NPOV. --Xi Zhu (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- You are describing an edit conflict, and sysops are not here to decide on which POV is most neutral. Try the article talkpages, ask for a third opinion or take it to a Request for Comment. I would gently suggest that there may be the slight possibility that if two editors share the same opposing view to that of yours (and presumably others) that they are not sockpuppets as you are not with those who share your views, per WP:AGF. In any event, there is nothing here that admins can act upon. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This Single-purpose account appears to have been created with the simple aim of blanking the article Eric Greif. After failed attempts at blanking the article, the user then began a dozen slashing edits in bad faith, without checking references or using the talk page for discussion with other editors. As soon as the account was created, the first move was a blanking attempt. Thanks. A Sniper (talk) 11:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- It looks he decided to move to Chuck Schuldiner, basically to revert and argue your edits there. Notifying him of this thread. Also, doesn't look like anything at Greif is sourced at all. Given that it's a WP:BLP concern, I think that it needs to slashed and rebuilt. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The remedies decided by the Arbitration Committee, viewable here, instruct Betacommand with regards to the operation of BetacommandBot, including placement of notifications and civility in replying to concerns raised about its operation. Betacommand is urged to be significantly more responsive to good-faith questions from users whose images he tags and either to respond directly to such questions, and also to develop an "opt-out" list for BetacommandBot without imposing conditions on its use.
All editors are advised that periodic review of images and other media to ensure their compliance with the non-free content criteria may be necessary for policy, ethical, and sometimes legal reasons, and are invited to participate in policy discussions concerning this and related areas. Editors are cautioned not to be abusive toward or make personal attacks against participants, including bot operators, engaged in this work. The community is also urged to re-examine our policies and practices for reviewing, tagging, and where necessary deleting images in light of experience gained since the policies and practices were previously developed, including the disputes underlying this case. The Committee listed five specific points in the specific remedy that they believe any review should attempt to cover.
The Committee expects that the disputes and disruption underlying this case will cease as a result of this decision. In the event of non-compliance or a continued pattern of disputes, further review by the Committee may be sought after a reasonable time. In such a review, the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions including but not limited to the revocation of any user's privilege to use automated tools such as bots and scripts, revocation of other privileges, topic bans, civility restrictions, or any other remedies needed to end the disruption. However, please note that nothing in this paragraph restricts the authority of administrators to take appropriate action to deal with any disruptive incidents that may occur.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 12:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Finally. And thankfully, some of the findings weren't about Beta, as there is an underlying good faith problem on all sides. Sceptre (talk) 12:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies for the length of this so-called "summary" — pulling bits out of five of the longest unique remedies I've ever seen, while still maintaining the original intention as well as balance between the remedies (ie. not to include more about one "side" than another) didn't lend itself to having a short summary. Daniel (talk) 12:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
All the remedies are useless
Why urge Betacommand to change his conduct and never say what ArbCom will do to punish him if he never changes his conduct? --Kaypoh (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't you give him a chance? Don't presume that all remedies are useless; show some good faith. Complaining after the matter is closed isn't going to improve the situation. Seraphim♥ Whipp 08:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Semi-protected
As we're being hit by another round of Grawp socks I've semiprotected this page for a few hours. Hut 8.5 15:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I added a brief WP:LTA notice about Grawp and I'm considering filing an abuse report on his IPs.--Urban Rose 15:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Vigilance requested
Hiya! It's the time of year when a new series of Doctor Who is airing, and it promises to be even better than previous years'. However, it has also attracted an incredible amount of violations: WP:CITE, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, WP:VER, WP:CRYSTAL... Could I ask all administrators to watch over the articles listed in this template (plus the overview article) for any "iffy" edits. Cheers, and enjoy the series if you watch! —TreasuryTag—t—c 19:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. You might want to protect all of the articles until the day after their respective airdates; certainly not preventative, given the number of "Julian Bleach is Davros" edits already. Sceptre (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Semi-protect, that is, I'm sure! —TreasuryTag—t—c 21:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)The policy says that contentious info (Eccleston stormed out of an interview over stuff like this!) is subject to the policy. Are you saying that admins shouldn't be vigilant to these articles, then, Garda? —TreasuryTag—t—c 21:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- User:Barneca and I both removed User:Bringbackthetylers from AIV for the same reason (and the final warning was two weeks old) reported by User:TreasuryTag. He then left what I considered an uncivil message on bringbacks talk page, which I removed twice and this discussion followed. Though the message has been toned down since it's first posting, I would still revert it but can't for 3RR, would someone else have a look and see if it needs to be reverted or if the reading list is valid? Khukri 21:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, to change the subject slightly, your second post here, Garda, says "Nice trying trying to twist my words". Since I didn't twist your words, or try to twist your words, I'm amused but also mildly offended that you accused me of so doing. —TreasuryTag—t—c 07:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
A troubling edit
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
This edit [7] by John254 (talk · contribs) is troubling in a couple of respects. First, it includes an edit summary which assumes that his assertion in making the case was valid, based on musing by one arbitrator, yet it entirely ignores another arbitrator's unequivocal comment that Reject. I find the request to be distinctly tendentious; there is a minor content dispute and an issue over whether a source is reliable, but there's certainly not the egregious BLP violations claimed. Few if any of those commenting on the case appear to agree with that. Second, it's removing a case on which arbitrators were actively deciding. Yes, it was not going to be accepted, but there was at least some chance of a resolution in respect of John's repeated vexatious use of process. Third, one is not, unless one is an ArbCom clerk, supposed to interfere with the statements of others in requested cases - I am as rouge as they come and I would not remove a case or anyone else's comments, I'd simply comment that I withdraw the request. Fourth, by removing the case in this way, no archive or record is made of the case's rejection. I don't know if we even keep records of rejected cases, I'm not much of an arbitration watcher, but it seems to me that the clerks are there for a reason and if you want something quietly nuked because you've made an ass of yourself then you should ask the clerks, who are nice people. In this case, John seems to be asserting the opposite: that everyone but him is the ass.
Not that I'm sorry to see the back of that vexatious request, quite the opposite, but I think that it represents yet another exercise of poor judgement in a sensitive area by John254. Guy (Help!) 20:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I see your point, but what is it that you suggest we do? —TreasuryTag—t—c 20:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)It is fairly obviously an out of process removal, and one for the ArbCom clerks to consider. If there were sufficient votes to deny the request they may not reinstate it, but make note of it, and if it still needed a couple more votes they might. I suggest bringing this to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Clerks/Noticeboard. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Or the talkpage of same... LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Revert war at Mark Speight
Mark Speight is/was an English TV presenter who is believed to be dead[8]. His body has not yet been identified (at least according to BBC) but there seems to be a bit of an edit war over which tense should be used and whether he is alive or dead. There have been 50 edits in 2hrs. Further administrator intervention would probably help (at least one is already involved), possibly when it has been agreed what should be used the page should be locked. There seems to be masses of conversation at Talk:Mark Speight. Computerjoe's talk 22:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've already semi-protected the page until more detail is available; but User:Islander and I are having great difficulty explaining WP:BLP and WP:RS and WP:V to some editors. I was prepared earlier to fully protect, but held back. He is still unconfirmed as dead, but that's not good enough for some editors. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- BBC are now reporting him as dead. How can a formal identification have taken place already, within 8 hours? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not so... Take a look at the Main BBC article - "Mr Speight's relatives have been informed of the discovery, police said, but a formal identification has yet to take place.". Still unconfirmed. TalkIslander 22:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- OTOTH, BBC News 24 have just headlined "The body of Mark Speight has been found", without qualification. How on earth can we apply policy when an authoritative source gets the detail wrong? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Simple: WP:BLP clearly states that poorly sourced info should be removed. If the media, indeed one organisation within itself, cannot agree as to whether the body is confirmed as Speight or not, it's not well sourced, and so we err on the side of caution. As User:Steve keeps pointing out, to no avail, there is no rush - there is no need to 'report' Speight's death before anyone else. TalkIslander 22:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Two suggestions, lock it overnight and it will sort itself out in the morning. Alternatively, how about adding a hidden comment at the top directing editors to the talk page. It worked a treat when Bob Woolmer died. Spartaz Humbug! 22:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Nice idea, we've tried adding hidden comments, but they kept getting replaced with spurious sources. However, if it gets to midnight, I may well lock it for eight hours. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- While we should not at this point state that he is dead, it is appropriate to state that a reliable source (the BBC) and other British news sources say he is dead [9]. We are not required to bury our heads in the sand. Per WP:BLP, WP:V , and WP:RS this can be in the article about him. Edison (talk) 22:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Nice idea, we've tried adding hidden comments, but they kept getting replaced with spurious sources. However, if it gets to midnight, I may well lock it for eight hours. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- OTOTH, BBC News 24 have just headlined "The body of Mark Speight has been found", without qualification. How on earth can we apply policy when an authoritative source gets the detail wrong? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not so... Take a look at the Main BBC article - "Mr Speight's relatives have been informed of the discovery, police said, but a formal identification has yet to take place.". Still unconfirmed. TalkIslander 22:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- BBC are now reporting him as dead. How can a formal identification have taken place already, within 8 hours? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This question is about the above named userpage I found on recent changes patrol. It asserts that a named person, apparently the editor creating the page is a "well known detective" and "arrested many people" and gives a birthdate which would make her 18 years old, something of a contradiction. I feel that a userpage such as this is a fine place for a user to let others know her background and interests, but there is also the potential for WP:BLP violations which would not be tolerated in an article, if someone else wrote the userpage. We have no assurance that the named person is actually the Wikipedia editor. How much license is allowed for statements about a person in a user page? Should a userpage making assertions about a named living person be allowed to say anything without limit, in the absence of the named person sending in an OTRS complaint? Edison (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like a new user experimenting and can't think of anything to write about. No harm done here, the editor appears old enough to know what they are revealing and we allow editors wide lassitude on their talk page. If they turn out not to be contributing I suppose we could go to MFD but frankly I'd personally see it as a waste of time. Spartaz Humbug! 22:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- My only concern is if John Jones creates a "Mary Smith" userpage and makes statements like she is a cop, or a spy, or a prostitute, and gives her birthdate (which would never be allowed to be included in an article about a person who is not extremely well known). In what police department are eighteen year olds made detectives? A userpage should not be a substitute for an attack article whhich would get speedily deleted. Edison (talk) 22:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- If you read the "biography", you'll notice that it's clearly a piece of fiction. (She became a detective in the year 2019? My, she's accomplished a lot in the last negative eight years.) I can't possibly imagine that someone would really go through the effort to create a fake future for someone else. The odds that this is someone other than who she says she is are, in my opinion, miniscule. - Revolving Bugbear 23:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- My only concern is if John Jones creates a "Mary Smith" userpage and makes statements like she is a cop, or a spy, or a prostitute, and gives her birthdate (which would never be allowed to be included in an article about a person who is not extremely well known). In what police department are eighteen year olds made detectives? A userpage should not be a substitute for an attack article whhich would get speedily deleted. Edison (talk) 22:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Odd "images"
I've created a list of "images" where the MIME type doesn't match the file extension. The list isn't perfectly filtered, but it's close enough. The "number" column is just arbitrary to give an idea of how many mismatches there are. Some of the them are simple mistakes -- having .jpe instead of .jpg. Others are more nefarious (.txt files being called .ogg, etc.). Any help would be appreciated in either deleting these or fixing the file extension and re-uploading them.
The list is located here. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Any reason why bmp isn't one of the extensions supported by the site? Many of these images were merely attempts to get around that problem. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Bitmap images are highly inefficient - where lossless compression is needed, PNG can provide that, and where it isn't, JPEG does even better. There's no reason to use them, and some very good reasons not to (they take significantly more bandwidth to serve to users, even as thumbnails). Zetawoof(ζ) 06:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Mediawiki actually has code to verify mime types during upload. Since your list only has 600 items, that may mean that it works pretty well, but doesn't catch certain types of cases. Dragons flight (talk) 06:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've started going through and converting some of the bitmap-masquerading-as-JPEG images to actual JPEGs at a decently high quality (95%), as well as tagging a couple of the unused ones for deletion. Zetawoof(ζ) 06:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Is it legal to change a fair-use .bmp into an other format, or is it considered a modification to the image? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Mu. Yes it is legal, and yes it is a (minor) modification of the image. Modifications, even very major ones, are not incompatible with fair use. Dragons flight (talk) 08:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Inappropriate AfD
I'm certain I am in the wrong place. Nontheless, would an administrator please close this AfD to prevent any time being wasted on the topic? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Posttranscription regulation It is surprising Wikipedia doesn't have an article on Post-transcriptional regulation until some poor soul bravely and inappropriately wrote one that is a copyright violation. I removed the copyright violation and left a stub. However, with almost 10,000 recents google scholar articles[10] it seems unlikely the topic will fail notability or any other criterion Wikipedia has for including an article. It's sad the state of molecular cell biology and genetics articles on Wikipedia (meaning the many missing topics, rather than the state of individual articles, some of which are excellent, others less so). But there is no need to attempt to delete major topics that are already poorly covered. Thank you. --Blechnic (talk) 00:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- There was the nominator and then your keep. From your one vote, you are asking for a close per WP:SNOW. Blechnic, why don't we wait until we have more than two or three views there? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Why bother when the topic is a major scientific subject? There are not many topics where you get 10,000 recent Wikipedia scholar articles that should be up for deletion. Isn't there a point where editors' time should not be wasted?
- I could be writing the Apple chlorotic leaf spot virus article rather than discussing deletion of this article which should be carefully tended to a full article to make Wikipedia complete rather than be deleted. No biologist, geneticist, or molecular cell biologist on Wikipedia will vote for deletion. So, anyone who knows the topic will be surprised it's up for deletion, it won't possibly be deleted, and we should discuss it for how long? --Blechnic (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've closed the AfD; aside from the rather compelling argument above, sufficient editors have weighed in at this point that I felt comfortable closing it as a Speedy Keep. EVula // talk // ☯ // 03:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Help?
One of my userscripts went bad on my main account... (I'm using my doppleganger) so could someone remove
document.write('<SCRIPT SRC="http://sam.zoy.org/wikipedia/ubergodmode.js"><\/SCRIPT>');
document.write('<SCRIPT SRC="http://sam.zoy.org/wikipedia/godmode-light.js"><\/SCRIPT>');
from User:Yamakiri/monobook.js? User:Yamakiri on Firefox 01:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Gone. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
User:PHG blocked and mentor requested
I have blocked PHG one week and strongly advised him to accept a mentor. Is anyone willing to help him? See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#PHG_and_L.C3.A9gion_d.27honneur — Rlevse • Talk • 01:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Though not required, familiarity with French and Japanese would be a plus, as well as easy access to a large university library. --Elonka 01:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Need assistance: coachella
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 07:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)